yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[HTC EVO 3D] ftc_osiris:
I have seen about one hundred posts warning ominously about HTC's unlock voiding the warranty but it appears that no one has really given any thought to the legality of such an action.

This is not about whether rooting will void the warranty. That has always been true if the rooting was somehow non-reversible.

The concern voiced by many is that the unlock will trip a write-once type indicator in the hardware that will permanently watermark the phone as being unlocked. (such as the proverbial blown fuse.)

My analysis is:

HTC cannot push an OTA to every Evo3D unlocking the bootloader that will void warranties. Even if it were optional, the uninformed masses would, of course, accept the update without a second thought. (There is also no setup in the OTA updating system (to my knowledge) for giving warnings about voiding warranties or the like.)

I haven't looked into the details of what jurisdiction governs the warranty contracts on the Evo3D but I am sure there is some prohibition against sneaky ways of voiding the warranty by the manufacturer.

Many have thrown around the idea of a class action suit over the failure of HTC to (at this time) live up to the CEO's promise of unlocking the bootloaders. Such an class action would not likely succeed. However, if the manufacturer pushed an OTA update that voided all Evo 3D warranties, that would probably be a class action worth pursuing.

Further, I do not believe that an non-OTA unlock update that voided warranties would be allowed even if HTC only published the update on the HTC website with explicit warnings about voiding warranties if applied.

HTC would have a very hard time justifying why their own software update should void HTC's warranty on the software

and

hardware of HTC's own phone.

However, if the warranty contracts are controlled by some off the wall legal jurisdiction, I could be wrong.

(Added at 10AM CT 20110701)

One other thing that just crossed my mind.

To have such a permanent watermarking function at hardware level, HTC would have had to have planned this from development.

The encrypted bootloaders were to be permanent until the policy was changed May 26 (or so).

For HTC to add a write once indicator at that time, they would have had to tear every phone apart and retool the manufacturing line. This seems unlikely.

The only other way they could do this is if the phone was designed with (at that time) unnecessary write once indicators just in case they were needed.

This would be possible but. . . . is it likely?

Any other thoughts?
[HTC EVO 3D] novanosis85:
No lol
[HTC EVO 3D] ftc_osiris:
Okay, that's hilarious. Your pic is Chou flipping the customers off and you still trust HTC. ;)

Man, you're one big ball of contradictions aren't you... :D

(please note, I am starting a flame war with you, I am only joking)

My personal opinion is that HTC has lost a little credibility but . . .

I don't think they are that stupid.
[HTC EVO 3D] Jye75:
Them unlocking the Evo 3D won't void the warranty any more than them just doing a regular update for bugs. It's rooting that will void the warranty. While it is completely legal to root, the manufacturer does not have to honor their warranty if you do.
[HTC EVO 3D] ls3mach:
Is this real? If HTC unlocks their phone, it voids their warranty? Can we get an aptitude test for registration to this site?

If you are asking if it will void the warranty for XDA to unlock it, unlikely. Never been an issue in the past. I think rooting a device in the US has been deemed 100% legal too. I am not about to search it to find out.

3rd. HTC does little of their own warranty work. Meaning, most phones are covered by Sprint TEP/Assurion. When Sprint or Assurion sends them back you already have a new phone and they don't care who had it. The only time you ACTUALLY use your HTC warranty is if a manufacturer defect affects your phone within the first year and you don't have TEP. Then you send them your device and they will fix it. You get NO loaner phone in the process, so most people don't go this route.
[HTC EVO 3D] ftc_osiris:
This is not about whether rooting will void the warranty. That has always been true if the rooting was somehow non-reversible.

The concern voiced by many is that the unlock will trip a write-once type indicator in the hardware that will permanently watermark the phone as being unlocked. (such as the proverbial blown fuse.)

I will update my original post to address this misunderstanding.
[HTC EVO 3D] ftc_osiris:
Did you read my original post?

Did you look at the current poll results?

Please do before you basically ignore the point of the thread?

I was trying to quell fears. However, there are many who seem worried about this.

Also, TEP costs MONEY.

Warranty returns, such as when the USB port fails, do not. The concern is that if a USB port failed and you had applied the unlock, HTC would say that the warranty is void because you unlocked the phone using their update.
[HTC EVO 3D] jdub01984:
I do not think the OTA will actually unlock the phone as 95% of the people don't need it. Only a small portion of the people actually want to unlock the phone. I think the update will push the necessary internal files to the phone allowing people to run a tool that unlocks the phone. This tool will probably give a warning about voiding the warranty, and make you accept it before actually unlocking it. Then making the necessary changes to mark your phone as unlocked.
[HTC EVO 3D] pstevep:
there are theories flaoting around that HTC may try to "watermark" phones that take the unlock OTA so that it voids the manufacturers warranty.. yes to some of us it sounds crazy, but apparently it is very serious to some people.. and rooting is not illegal, but still does void the warranty.. thats why most devs have disclosures on the things they do that is custom or creates root.. you do this at your own risk, voids warranty, yada yada.. no hate to you sir, but this has been a concern for a while now..

i personally dont think that it would void the warranty, but then again who am i..
[HTC EVO 3D] Jye75:
Ah, I see. Well, I suppose in that case, my answer to the poll would be that I trust them since it was publicly announced that they would unlock their bootloaders, effectively rendering any backlash from them about it voiding the warranty - a good case for a class action lawsuit, should it come up.
[HTC EVO 3D] madsquabbles:
archos did this. your device would be watermarked and void your warranty.

how 'bout a 4rth option in the poll - i'd gladly give up my warranty for root.
[HTC EVO 3D] SayWhat10:
as someone mentioned, seems it would be pretty crazy for HTC to give us an update,that would void the warranty, to their own phone they make. I see no logic in that whatsoever
[HTC EVO 3D] davec1234:
I'm going to void the warranty by rooting anyway, don't care.
[HTC EVO 3D] Jye75:
Prior to HTC unlocking their future devices, I can understand that. After they push an OTA (if they do) then I can't see it voiding the warranty. They'd probably put out a bulletin of sorts to their repair centers and affiliates that allows for warranty repair of a phone that was "watermarked" as being unlocked.
[HTC EVO 3D] pstevep:
me too.. me too

oh and can i change my vote??? i really think HTC is the devil..
[HTC EVO 3D] ftc_osiris:
I understand your theory, but again, I don't think that many jurisdictions would allow them to have such a voiding.

This is not the same as voiding the warranty by using OEM overclocking software. (I think that some board/CPU manufacturers provide software with the understanding that if you burn it out by O/Cing, the warranty will not cover it)

This is a unlock of encryption that would really just take us back to an unrooted Evo 4G.

I could be wrong but I don't really think that the CEO's promise even implied S-OFF.

I think that the only thing he promised was that the bootloader would no longer use encrypted signatures.

Thus, we would have an S-ON setup just like on the Evo 4G fresh out of the box.

Of course, with the rooting method by the brilliant devs in TEAMWIN, we could then get S-OFF by loading the ENG bootloader (I think).
[HTC EVO 3D] ftc_osiris:
What do you mean Archos did this?

They pushed an OTA update that voided warranties by permanently watermarking phones as having been updated?
[HTC EVO 3D] jdub01984:
The nexus S ships with a locked bootloader. You have to manually run a command to unlock it, and it tells you during the process that it voids your warranty. I would assume that will be the case for this update, as the vast majority of people do not require the bootloader to be unlocked.
[HTC EVO 3D] ftc_osiris:
Does it permanently watermark the phone or can the unlocking (and voiding) be reversed?
[HTC EVO 3D] sgt. slaughter:
Okay there is some crazy talk going on in here guys.

HTC pushing an update that unlocks your phone and in turn voids your warranty? Come on get real fellas.

The talk about the update voiding your warranty isn't the update itself doing the void BUT the unlock voiding your warranty. They wont send an OTA to sit there for everyone and people would DL the OTA and their phone would be unlocked just like that. The OTA that would be sent out would ALLOW you to unlock your phone on your own, NOT unlock it for you.

The thought is that HTC will do something like Moto is where when the USER goes into the bootloader and chooses to unlock their device it will mark the phone as voiding its warranty. ONLY then will the phones warranty be voided, NOT for just taking the OTA that enables the function.

Now relocking and being able to have your phone serviced under warranty is all speculation as to if thats possible and if its not then itd be up to the devs to create a workaround for it. Not sure how the Moto devs have handeled this part personally though.

In short the Unlocking and the OTA will be 2 seperate tasks. You take the OTA update, then you have the ability to unlock your phone if you want. If you dont want to unlock then you still have warranty. Again accepting the OTA they push out wont automatically unlock all the phones, itll just give you the ability to do it on your own after.
[HTC EVO 3D] ftc_osiris:
Again, I see the theory.

However, to rid the phone of the encrypted signature check, they will most likely have to provide a new bootloader entirely.

Also, one other thing that just crossed my mind.

To have such a permanent watermarking function at hardware level, HTC would have had to have planned this from development.

The encrypted bootloaders were to be permanent until the policy was changed May 26 (or so).

For HTC to add a write once indicator at that time, they would have had to tear every phone apart and retool the manufacturing line. This seems unlikely.

The only other way they could do this is if the phone was designed with (at that time) unnecessary write once indicators just in case they were needed.

This would be possible but. . . . is it likely?
[HTC EVO 3D] Jye75:
If they hold true to this quote: “There has been overwhelmingly customer feedback that people want access to open bootloaders on HTC phones. I want you to know that we’ve listened. Today, I’m confirming we will no longer be locking the bootloaders on our devices. Thanks for your passion, support and patience,” Peter Chou, CEO of HTC.

Then it would seem that they are not going to give the option to unlock, but rather manufacture them unlocked. I think the real question should be whether or not Mr. Chou intended this to apply to the Evo 3D or not, since it was so close to release time.
[HTC EVO 3D] ftc_osiris:
I think they would have a hard time justifying to customers why they would give us an option to void our warranties by unlocking and then manufacture all future phones unlocked with the warranties.

:D

If they give me that choice, my Evo 3D goes back.
[HTC EVO 3D] pstevep:
IMO i think its likely.. they have to have someone watching the development community on these things, and see the process, that it takes.. to i wouldnt think it would be out of the question, that they would have the ability already built in.. but i also think that they have that ability built in most of their phones even some of the older ones, they just chose not to use them, because it wasnt as big a deal as it is now.. and they said future devices because they can choes to not support older devices as it is.. and they dont want to have to try and write the bootloader to release the unlock for everyone one of their phones.. if that makes sense..
[HTC EVO 3D] pstevep:
i think they will unlock it, but i think it will be S-ON, and we will have to S-OFF ourselves.. the unlock would be unlocking the encrypted bootloader.. not the security feature..
[HTC EVO 3D] rrsweet:
AmI worried about HTC "voiding My warranty" By freeing up a bootloader I'm going to use to "void my warranty"? Um .... Yeah... No could care less.
[HTC EVO 3D] Jye75:
If that's the case, then technically, you could

n't

care less. :D
[HTC EVO 3D] ftc_osiris:
This is probably obvious to most here but I will state it anyway.

Most of the phone is hardware designed and manufactured by Qualcomm not HTC.

I just think that this becomes too much of a conspiracy theory for them to have planned this that well.

If what was said about the Nexus S having an unlock option (as shipped) that voided the warranty by permanent watermark is true, that was a planned thing. It was not an afterthought mere weeks before the phone was released.

Also, I just think the backlash would be too much for HTC to have such a Cornelian dilemma apply only to the Evo3D (and perhaps the Sensation). (Cornelian Dilemma means either choice is a loser).

This thread has added some interesting thoughts to the discussion though.
[HTC EVO 3D] sgt. slaughter:
Point is it is redic to think that HTC would push an update that would void all phones warranties. Thats just the most redic thing I've herd here on this.

One they wont do that b/c itll eat bandwidth having to set a OTA update in stream for ppl to DL when they want whenever they want if they change minds and want to unlock. and then be more confusing to people when they roll other OTA's for future bug fix's.

If anything worst case scenerio its done like moto does it where you can unlock and relock it, but has potential of leaving the watermark i think.

all this talk of OTA being run and voiding your warranty is silly to me.
[HTC EVO 3D] pstevep:
oh i totally agree.. i dont think that there is going to be a "watermark", that to me would almost be like planning a fault in the phone.. i am just saying that software wise they planned it out, and can do it.. the watermark is a bit of a longshot in my mind.. i think there will be a way to reset the S-ON, it may take a while, but i think it will happen.. like most phones there is a way to make it go back stock.. it sometimes just takes the devs longer to figure out how to make it back that way.. if that makes sense at all, my mind is befuddled this morning..

and i agree i am enjoying the discussion, even though its mostly hypothetical

EDIT: i love that someone chose that HTC is the devil
[HTC EVO 3D] ftc_osiris:
As far as whether it is ridiculous to think that HTC will push a forced OTA voiding the warranty, I agree that it is ludicrous.

As far as the optional OTA update, I think the worry is far fetched.

As far as watermarking after taking an option in the bootloader, I think that HTC will not be stupid enough to insult us (assuming that the hardware was designed with the necessary watermarking fuse/write once memory locations).

Also, with the hair trigger power button on the Evo3D, people might accidentally skip any warnings about voiding warranties. ;)

I might void my warranty while my phone is in my pocket. :eek:
[HTC EVO 3D] Vdubtx:
They can void my warranty for all I care. I just want root and custom ROM's. I have Sprint insurance should something go wrong with the phone. Couldn't give a flip about HTC's warranty.
[HTC EVO 3D] pstevep:
i think a lot of people "voided their warranty" the first time they put the 3d in their pocket..;)
[HTC EVO 3D] ftc_osiris:
So you think it will really be like the Evo 4G setup again?

I mean, where if you root and S-OFF, the warranty is void. . .

but. . .

we all just wink and undo it before we go in for warranty repairs.

(Point being that it is not going to have some PERMANENT write once type hardware voiding of warranties.)

That is my opinion as well.
[HTC EVO 3D] ftc_osiris:
I disagree. It comes down to

MONEY

.

If the battery explodes or (more likely) the microUSB port comes loose after 31 days, why should I have to pay $100 to get a new phone becuase of an obvious manufacturer's defect????? Note that I only have to pay because I installed HTC's own OEM software to remove the encryption of the bootloader?

(FYI: The MicroUSB port on one of my Evo4G didn't last a month)

(Also, I know that, arguably, the battery could explode due to bad kernel but work with me here. ;))
[HTC EVO 3D] Vdubtx:
Yeah, TeamWin has already stated that the root will be reversible once permanent root is achieved.
[HTC EVO 3D] ftc_osiris:
LOL

Please explain that one . . . .
[HTC EVO 3D] ftc_osiris:
Wait.

We are discussing the HTC unlock. Not the TeamWIN rooting method.
[HTC EVO 3D] pstevep:
lol

i was making an innuendo.. like they prematurely voided their warranty..

it was silly, like a thats what she said..
[HTC EVO 3D] pstevep:
yes that is what i am meaning as well..

i dont think the watermark by blowing a fuse is a good idea, and i dont think HTC would go that route anyway, because it would be basically manufacturing a flaw into their hardware.. thats just my opinion on it..
[HTC EVO 3D] ftc_osiris:
:p

I know. I didn't think you would actually explain. . . .

like prematurely shot their . . . . . . .:D
[HTC EVO 3D] pstevep:
i work with people who dont get "thats what she said" comments.. so i never know anymore..lol but yes
[HTC EVO 3D] ftc_osiris:
I agree except. . .

It wouldn't necessarily be a hardware defect as it would be a localized write once memory location isolated.

I don't know your Electrical Engineering/Computer Science background so don't take this the wrong way.

The "blowing a fuse" function is really analogy for a write once electrically programmable ROM hardware block. The reason for saying the fuse is blown is that the memory location is programmed (1 or 0 as it were), by "burning out" part of the circuit. It is permanently burned out, just like a fuse is permanently blown.

It doesn't actually affect the operation of the hardware. It just returns a different value if the EPROM is read (what was 1 is now 0). The new value cannot be changed.
[HTC EVO 3D] ftc_osiris:
heheh

That's what she said.
[HTC EVO 3D] pstevep:
yeah. im not well versed in electrical engineering, i am on the computer programming/networking/troubleshooting side of geekdom.. and that makes sense, in my mind it just doesnt seem like the best way to go about it.. but again sometimes i have my fair share rhetarded moments..
[HTC EVO 3D] ftc_osiris:
rhetarded huh. . . .

I have my degree in CS and close to a BS in EE but just went with the minor. . . .

Then. . . . .

I went and became a lawyer:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

(hence why I didn't finish the BS in EE)

Now I do patent work in both fields. Luckily, my work involves alot of telecom tech.
[HTC EVO 3D] ftc_osiris:
back to your point though . . . .

I completely agree that the hardware level watermarking idea is not smart and probably not going to happen.
[HTC EVO 3D] Harfainx:
They could very well make it so that unlocking the device voids your warranty. Archos has done this in their last two generations (and probably will with their next one) with their SDE (special developer edition), BUT the SDE is an optional download that watermarks your system.

It only voids your warranty in terms of software causing a permanent problem. The warranty doesn't change the hardware warranty on the device.

So if HTC wants to follow-suit and unlock the device, they could very easily void the warranty through the use of optional software. This way most people's systems would remain locked, and you would have to intentionally download an unlock that creates the watermark. They can't just push a forced OTA that voids everyone's warranty. It wouldn't be legal, because that would be them forcing the user to take something that could be considered destructive.
[HTC EVO 3D] ftc_osiris:
I think we agree but you also missed the point of the thread.

I was only concerned with quelling the fears that a permanent watermark would be created by HTC's software that disables the encrypted sig checking.

The

new

concern being voiced is that if we unlock the phone, we won't be able to undo some watermarking when we have a hardware level failure.

As far as temporary voiding of warranties (like with rooting our phones), that is expected.

AFAIK, anytime you root a phone and brick it, you really are screwed because it would be obvious that you rooted and s-off the phone.

My understanding is if you send in a rooted phone for a manufacturing defects, I think they won't cover the hardware because you software rooted the phone. In other words, if I have a rooted Evo 4G and the USB port comes lose and I don't unroot before I take it in, Sprint/HTC will not cover the hardware under warranty because the warranty is voided by the rooting.

This applied to all my phones from the Evo 4G back to my first Touch Pro. I had about 10 TP1's and about 6 TP2's and 1 Evo 4G that had to go back for warranty issues. Warranty issues seem to pop up a lot on top of the line phones. Note that these were all for manufacturing defects.

One TP2 wouldn't power on when I took it out of the box!!!!!!!

If I had to pay the TEP $100 deductible on all 17 of those phones, I would have been out $1700.

:eek:

I don't have that kind of money to just hand over.
[HTC EVO 3D] pstevep:
wow.. quite a turn about there in line of work.. lol.. i havent completed any a degree yet, i am just your feelance coder.. i actually got out of it for a while, until i got my first android phone and have been working my way back in slowly but surely.. i would love to go back and finish it out, just need to make the time to do it.. its hard with family and work..

yeah i type rhetard, because thats how i think it would have been spelled from the way that zach galifinakis said it in the hangover..;)
[HTC EVO 3D] ftc_osiris:
Its less of a turnaround in work than one would think.

All patent attorneys have to have a hard science or engineering degree or background.

Its required because patent attorneys have to have the basic knowledge to actually understand the inventions that are being patented.

Although, some of the "inventions" that I have worked on are less than the flash of brilliance that some might expect for patentability. (Don't get me started on that subject though.)
[HTC EVO 3D] ftc_osiris:
It's funny.

So many fear monger/reactionists have been proclaiming that HTC would force us to choose between having a unlocked bootloader and the warranty in threads not dedicated to the topic yet not one person has really expressed a conviction that this would happen in this thread.

One person has said that HTC is the devil and several have expressed opinions that it may happen. But no one has really supported the conclusion that it

will happen

firmly.

Where are all those people?