yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] doministry:
Heh what? The standard on highend was 8mpx for some time,

boasting 12mpx in some cases. And the quality of photos of WP7 devices is below average, including such shameful camera as Dell Venue Pro.

3.2mpx? On medium range feature phones, where the standard was 5mpx on higher end.

Even last SE WM phone had 8mpx shooter.

And now we have April 2011.
[Windows Phone 7 General] doministry:
Well the software they make is not crappy in fact.

Not on Arc, X1 was good too.
[Windows Phone 7 General] nicksti:
You do love to generalize, don't you? To the point where the information is not even truth anymore.

The quality of the HTC windows 7 phones is just as subpar as the same HTC Android phones. And to further shed some light on the comment, pocketnow said the 5MP camera in the Dell Venue Pro was not good. Pocketnow said the 8MP camera in the Dell Venue (Android) was not good either. So it is Dell.

So, you are right but misleading; the cameras on the average WP7 are below average because HTC pushes out 3 (HD7, Mozart, Trophy), and Dell who is not known for anything in this industry has one. By the way, the Omnia 7 has a nice camera.

Higher MP != quality. Sony Ericsson makes well balanced phones. So does Nokia. The rumour mill had a WP7 SE phone which I think may have been just a rumour. But if Nokia and SE both came to the party WP7 would be something!

P.S. I see you have a P1 in your sig. I am actually using one as we speak. Like you I have owned too many SE phones from the W810 and onward.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
Buy a Camera/Video Recorder, then?

Camera on a smartphone is not a primary feature. Unless the camera is truly terrible (DVP), it's not much of a factor. I can care less how good Nokia's cameras are.

Even their buidl quality is not that big of a deal to me. I put every phone in a case so teh only thing anyone ever sees is the screen and branding on the front of it, anyways.

Nokia's high end phones are consistently overpriced... I won't pay a premium for Apple, and I'm definitely not gonna pay a premium for lolNokialol
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
SE's customizations are consistently some of the best and most consistent in the industry. The issue with their Android phones isn't the customizations and value-adds, it's the way they lag behind in Android releases.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
I would hope so, seeing as how one is a country and the other two are entire continents. Africa is probably a bigger market as well. Too bad people don't like on Antarctica, right? They could monopolize that market!

But the N8 has terrible hardware and that beyond-****ty NHD screen resolution. Doesn't it also lack a removeable battery and SD Card slot (unsure on the latter, too lazy to check). That is the price of those Carl Zeiss optics. If nokia wants to compete with other manufacturers like Samsung/SE (which also uses Carl Zeiss optics in some of their phones)/HTC and still have just as good "build quality," hardware, and optics in the phone... Either they will have to accept less profit margins, or the price of the handsets will go up.

It's still a phone and taking pictures is still a minority function for a majority of smartphone users... I'd even say video has become more important to a lot of people and an N73 will not be able to compete with an HD7 in that regard. Also, eSeries were very popular among business users and corporate policies often disable the camera on the phone (among other things).
[Windows Phone 7 General] nicksti:
Just because a camera is not a primary feature for you does not mean it is not for someone else. The world is full of diversed individuals which is why smartphones do so much. If it is not a primary feature then manufacturers sure waste alot of money on the exercise. Not for you, but there are other consumers in this world. Right?

Snapshot of the unlocked market now:

Nokia N8 - $400. 16GB internal, 12MP, 3.5" AMOLED, 680MHz ARM.

Nokia N97 - $300 32GB internal. 5MP, 3.5". Slide out keyboard. ARM 434MHz

HTC Desire Z - $400

Samsung Galaxy S - $450 16GB version

Nokias are not overpriced (or clearly so) for the hardware in them, but pricing does take your value of the phone into account. If you do not care for a 16MP camerphone that has modest specs but costs alot because of the optics then you may consider it overpriced.

Think about it, Nokias sell well in developing markets where price matters alot.
[Windows Phone 7 General] nicksti:
1. You keep generalizing this bad hardware. Past the CPU and Screen resolution, what else is bad hardware? Or those are the only two components to you in a phone?

2. It is amazing how parochial we can be. What are your statistics on smartphones and camera usage? Why do hardware makers put better optics in smartphones? And market them to suit?
[Windows Phone 7 General] nicksti:
Here is my quick research:

Compiled through a survey of thousands of adult Cell Phone users in the U.S., the survey illustrated the growth and increasingly diverse uses of cell phone cameras. 45.9% of respondents report using their cell phone cameras at least once a week - with many saying they snap a photo with their cell phone every day. - Wirefly Survey

Source

Showing further evidence of the interest in camera phones, 53 percent of camera phone owners take photos with their phone. The overwhelming majority of these "phone-tographers" (96 percent) use their camera phones for spontaneous pictures... - Sprint Survey

Source

Here is some information a little more recent

This is why manufacturers like Nokia put good optics in their phones. They study the behaviour of all consumers, not only N8ter.
[Windows Phone 7 General] brummiesteven:
Size of the market segment doesn't mean that it's a bigger market. The US/America for example is a bigger market than Europe for Video games. In 2008, The video game market in Europe was worth $17.9B, in the US $21.33B. Infact, it's a bigger market for most things besides Mobile Phones.

Also, please cut the sarcastic, condescending comments, I'd never do such a thing to another member and I don't expect to be reading that sort of thing targeted at me.
[Windows Phone 7 General] brummiesteven:
I'd also like to add to this that, the reason why these devices have "bad hardware" is because the CPU/Memory doesn't need to be high for Symbian to run fine.

It's a bit like Windows Phone at the moment. There are dual core Android phones that lag, my Samsung Omnia 7 has a single core 1ghz processor and it's as smooth as butter.

Nokia will upgrade their components accordingly while trying to keep the price down aswel.
[Windows Phone 7 General] nicksti:
All that being said about Symbian not needing more hardware, Symbian frustrated the heck out of me. I do not know which one I hate more between that and BB.

I remember when I owned the iPhone original the only thing that I did not understand is the home key means "back to home". But you figure that out quickly. Android was very easy to understand off the bat. But Symbian is just clumsy. I have never used webOS but that gesture thing to me seems like an overly complex way of doing very simple things. Buttons not good enough?

Windows Phone is a step backwards in features to Symbian but many more steps in the right direction in the future. The Nokia concept phone is nice looking and comes in colours, something that high end phones do lack.
[Windows Phone 7 General] doministry:
P1 of course. It was a brilliant phone. As well as SymbianUIQ. I used almost all of their smartphones.

You are right. It's not WP7 directly responsible for bad cameras at all.

It is manufacturers. But in the end the whole platform is struggling because of lack of the really good devices in this regard.
[Windows Phone 7 General] doministry:
Bad arguement. If the email app sucks buy the laptop than?

Camera is not marginal at all.

You don't even know how many users actually use it more and more often. It was marginal 5 years ago but today?

And why should I buy extra device if phones can do more and more. Actually SE Arc is brilliant in this regard. No WP7 device can come even close to this.
[Windows Phone 7 General] doministry:
Yep. I compared lately SE UI and HTC Sense and both look significant. Actually SE looks more classy IMO.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
Symbian has performance issues on that phone. Read the reviews. Most of Nokia internal are bad. The only great thing about the n8 is the shell and the camera. The rest is below industry standard components.

Also, while lots of people use their camera phones, I doubt most of them expect it to perform on par with a dslr. Its convenient, that's why they - and I as well - use it. Bit complaining about a 5mpix 720p camera is grasping at straws.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
Those phones are old now. The prices have.stopped and since Nokia phones don't sell well at high end they drop more.

Stop trying to insult our intelligence. Name an unlocked android phone that coats this much with the internal of this phone

http://www.nokiausa.com/find-products/nokiae7

That costs more than a 16 gb iphone or any android device - even a nexus s or atrix 4g off contract. Your excuse about price in emerging markets only applies to their cheap phones. Rim has thwarting same issue there (curves outset bold in those markets).
[Windows Phone 7 General] MartyLK:
My sentiments exactly. The one thing I always hated most about Nokia phones was all the menus I had to navigate through to get to the silence function or the speakerphone. I personally didn't think much of the creaky, plastic'y phones. But my Nokia experience was limited to the little candy bar, free-on-contract, type phones.
[Windows Phone 7 General] nicksti:
I am not trying to insult your intelligence; you think you are always right but in this case you are wrong.

You said the N8 costs $600 and right now it is $400 on the unlocked market.

The N8 was released in October 2010. The Galaxy S was released in June 2010. So the GS is an older phone. I only chose the N97 because I did not have many options in a phone with a similar form factor. Point taken about the N97 being old but the S is older than the N8 and is more expensive.

So let us compare something else:

E7 - 4.0" AMOLED, 16GB Internal 1GB ROM, BT 3.0, 8MP Camera, 680MHz CPU $550

Desire Z - 3.7" SLCD, 1.5GB Internal, 5MP Camera, 800MHz CPU $400

The E7 was just released. The Desize Z was released at the end of last year. What to know the price back then? $550. So now you know better. I do suspect this did not change anything.

Oh, and quoting a price off a manufacturer's website is.... not intelligent. They give MSRP. You could have easily gone to Amazon to see it for $540 but I suspect you purposely chose not to. The Desire Z on Amazon is $475. Choose the price you want to use.

And your point went like this - the internals are cheap. read reviews. absolutely no reference made to the other internals.

Anyway, in summary, Nokia flagship phones are not any more overpriced on the unlocked market than any other phone. I would know.
[Windows Phone 7 General] nicksti:
By the way the Atrix 4G right now most people sell for around $600 plus. A simple google shopping search would have shown that. Only one seller on that list was way below the rest.

I will tell you the problem with Nokia phones and pricing if you are interested: their lower mid and mid phones are overpriced. They have some cheap as dirt dual band phones and "old people" featureless phones. They seem to run into some problems with the middle ones; Their 5230 et al phones and the X6. The SE Vivaz is similar to the Nokia X6 but the former has always been a better buy. I used both phones and owned the Vivaz.

Cheap low end phones.

Overpriced middle.

Inline pricing with market high end.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Michael-Dallas:
This thread is entertaining at best.

Symbian is not competive in NAM. Haven't any of you read the Gartner and IDC prediction for WP7 in 2015? That is why Microsoft and Nokia have an agreement. Nokia gets a fresh new OS that gives them a chance to regain handset marketshare and Microsoft gets a Symbian customer-base that gives them a chance to regain smartphone OS marketshare.

As far as why no CDMA Nokias the past few years, I'll give you guys a clue: Nokia and Qualcomm just recently (as in the past year or so) reconciled their differences. If you are unfamiliar w/ the Nokia-Qualcomm relationship, then google it.

Personally, I like Nokia hardware. I have seldom received dropped calls with my Nokias.

Michael.
[Windows Phone 7 General] nicksti:
1. Correct me if I am wrong but that was the same outfit that predicted Symbian would be dominating a few years back. That is why it is a prediction; many factors come into play that people cannot foresee.

2. This is just a question but why can't the chip they use now work with a CDMA antenna? For example the ARM 11 Broadcom?
[Windows Phone 7 General] brummiesteven:
Also, don't the Garner and IDC predictions factor in the Nokia-WP7 deal anyway? This is why they give WP7 such a massive rise and practically kill Symbian.
[Windows Phone 7 General] doministry:
Yes I think so and I believe WITHOUT this deal predictions would be really different.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
Anything with Symbian on it and hte hardware Nokia uses that is priced in line wiht high end Android/iOS devices is overpriced. Not even Palm could get away with that, and thier OS is phenomenal.

The Atrix is priced that high because it deserves to be priced that high. It has the hardware to justify it, and it runs an OS that isn't a dead end. It has the most connectivity options of any other phone out there, tons of docking possibilities. 1GB RAM, QHD 4.1" Display that is good. A good camera. FFC. Android. Dual Core Proc. WiFi a/b/g/n, HSPA+, a 1930 mAh battery, fingerprint scanner, etc.

The E7 has a crappy resolution on an AMOLED display (to hold manufacturing costs down), BT 3.0 that the Galaxy S has that most consumers really don't need. A processor from late 2008. 256 MB RAM. 1200 mAh battery. Captures video in 25 FPS instead of 30 that any decent Android phone (or iPhone) does (great camera, though).

Those Nokia phones cost as much as a 32 GB iPhone.

If anyone is faced with a choice between an E7, i4, and Atrix they will not be buying the E7.

There's a reason why Nokia has virtually no marketshare here, and why hardly any carriers want to subsidize their high end phones.

I've checked the prices at Amazon, but most people I know won't buy a phone from there for support reasons (Manufacturers and Reatailers like to bounce you back and forth when it's beneficial to them).

You can get an HD7 from Wirefly for $29.99, and I've seen high end Nokia phones on Craigslist for much less than what they're selling them for on NokiaUS or Amazon, but why should I care about that?

In the end it comes down to what the market thinks, not what an individual thinks. And the market has spoken pretty succintly that Nokia's pricing is full of fail, as is their OS and the hardware in their phones.

They're in the same position that Blackberry is in... Worse actually, casue the niche that they actually control (Dumb and Feature Phones) is moving on to better smartphone platforms every day in increasing numbers. RIM still has BES/Corporate Market to hold them over.

Nokia's phones cost factorably less to manufacture than Android manufacturers do, but they charge factorably more. They do it to keep profit margins up - the same way Apple does. Except, the total package is terrible compared to competitors products. That's why every high end phone they put out is a dud.

And reviews have mentioned the internals, the same way they mentioned the internals for i.e. Blackberry Torch which launched with similar hardware (but more RAM) than a Nokia device. Reviews have always mentioned Nokia's crappy nHD resolution on their touchscreens. And they've always mentioned their terrible Symbian OS.
[Windows Phone 7 General] doministry:
Here in Poland Nokia phones have the same high prices as newest Androids.
[Windows Phone 7 General] MartyLK:
It's the same in Iran, according to a friend of mine.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
I just want to see the outcome, and how it all will come together.

Side note: I'm certain the iPhone 5 haw been delayed to put a nail in the coffin.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
iPhone 5 cannot actually put a nail in the coffin of a platform like WP7. It's just one phone, and however awesome it is it can't have 90% or even 50% of the market defined broadly. It's in the single digit area still. So as long as there are users switching from dumbphones, there's market for platforms.

Also, it would be rather silly to delay a phone because of an inconsequential competitor like WP7.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
Of course there are other reasons. However WPs biggest release this year will be Mango, and all the blogs and media will care about is iPhone 5.

Anyway IOS is more than a phone. IPhone 5 will bring forward a new version of IOS.

It was just a side note though. I say Nokia needs to pump out a phone this year, and Mango better include some more stuff.

They must know something to spend billions. I'm sure they're not just hoping to gain market share.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Michael-Dallas:
The prediction came after the announcement, not the other way around. In other words, Microsoft saw a tangible benefit from partnering w/ Nokia, vice versa, so the deal was struck. The prediction merely reaffirms the decisions for partnership.

Because Qualcomm owns most of the CDMA patents. If you want to use CDMA technology, then you have to license it from Qualcomm or buy Qualcomm chipsets. Nokia had refused to pay for licensing so they are out of the CDMA handset market. Now, Nokia and Qualcomm have reconciled their differences and we should start seeing Qualcomm chipsets in Nokia handsets (coincidentally, WP7 phones have Qualcomm chipsets).

Michael.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Mango by itself doesn't matter much - that is, blogs will talk about it for a while but it won't, and can't have much influence. Real devices can.

And again, one phone won't change anything. Lots of phones can.

They know that spending billions on their own OS is too expensive, if you're talking about Nokia.
[Windows Phone 7 General] MartyLK:
Here ya go. This will be the fruit of the MS+Nokia agreement. Isn't it charming...LOL ;)

http://www.engadget.com/2011/04/25/keepin-it-real-fake-nckias-n-gage-knockoff-harkens-back-to-a/
[Windows Phone 7 General] weijoon:
my 2cent for Nokia and MS partnership as an Asian user...

The agreement between Nokia and MS can bring us the Asian user more choices with better support in term of software, hardware and the OS. As I always feel that Nokia is the only brand that is really care about Asian user.(I know it might be a bias opinion, but please note that it is only my POV)

Furthermore, Chasis 2 spe of WP7 is annouced, and I think it's price will be lower than the current Chasis 1 device, which give MS a boost to Asia market cuz Nokia indeed a very popular brand in Asia, especially its N series, Communicator, E series time.

Some extra info to clarify WP7 in Asia,

1. Even thou WP7 is currently provide no native support for chinese language, but don't forget that there are still many ESL user in Asia, plus there is a decent software called I'm Chinese to counter the lack of Chinese language support in WP7.

2. Bing Search in Asia (At least in Malaysia) is lacking alot's of functioning than in US or EU (same to Bing Maps), but we can counter it by changing our region to either US or EU if we really need those extra function provided, although I think most of the Asia user do not care about it.

3. Asia phone market majority is more likely dropped in mobile phone retailer shop rather than mobile service provider. In Malaysia, (I think the same rule applied to Singapore and Thailand), you can always see lots of mobile phone retailer shop selling all kind of phone from difference brand. Even thou mobile service provider start their bundle market strategy, and it is quite a successful IMO, but most of us are still getting our phone from retailer shop. Pricing might be higher if we get our phone from retailer, but we are more prone to keep our mobile contract-free(prepaid) or with our exisiting postpaid package rather than to change a plan that not suit us just because of the phone... In long term, we might just save more than we pay for bundle package...
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
No, htey have to charge less for it because it has a terrible OS in addition to terrible hardware internals. Why are you mentioning BT 3.0? My Vibrant has BT 3.0, 16GB internal storage, Super Amoled WVGA screen, 1GHz Hummingbird SoC, etc. and it's still cheaper than a Nokia with half the hardware, except a better camera? The camera isn't worth that much.

When the N8 was released it was over 600. Atrix is a new phone. Compare it to the E7, which is more expensive. THANKS! I thought I corrected your error in the last post, where you compared some Desire phone instead of something like the HTC Inspire 4G to Nokia's latest smartphone...

Cameras aren't that important on a tablet, and I think I already said it had ****ty cameras. Nokia doesn't even have a tablet. I was using the iPad 2 as an example to display that Nokia isn't the only manufacturer who cuts corners, but Nokia does it in places that actually matter and actually do impact the performance and usability of their devices (i.e. the OS, the SoC, the amount or RAM in the device, the screen resolution, etc.). Those are all places where Apple did not cut corners in the iPad 2. The iPhone 4 cameras are fine.

Nokia's E7 retails for $620. On the Open Market people only sell for what they think a device is worth. iOS phones deprecate in value less than Android handsets because there is no upgrade treadmill. That is expected...

And your logic is?

Their marketshare comes chiefly from feature and dumbphones, not "high end" phones like the N8 and E7. I think you need to brush up on reading comprehension or reread this thread. I'm pretty sure I said that at least twice, buddy...

I can get phones for 1 cent on Amazon or Wirefly. I'm saying it's about as legit a price check as Wirefly, bestbuy, or a number of other sources who undercut manufacturers and carriers for a quick sale.

What benchmark did you take?

Nokia's high end phones are overpriced. It's a fact. Everyone agrees but you.

And like BB, falling steadily...

A torch is more useful than an N8. That's why.

Nokia gets their build quality good by sacrificing on the internals. Android manufacturers do a bit of the opposite. But build quality and durability are less and less of an issue to most consumers these days becasue most people case their phones and cases are not expensive.

I rather have a better phone with a bit less build quality than a worse phone with better build quality.

Obviously the market agrees, and that is why both RIM and Nokia (BB and Symbian) are having their marketshare eroded by iOS and Android at an accellerating pace.

Hardware is only as good as the software it runs. If their ****ty phones were running Symbian rmance levels equivalent to native Andorid handsets, with an ecosystem to match, I don't think anyone here would have an issue buying them.

I've used high end Symbian phones. Apart from the Shell and the Cameras, they are utter ****.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
From what I've seen tons of Asian users are just as content using cheap low quality knock offs as they are using the real thing...
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
So let me get this right.

There is no demand for Nokia in the US

Nokia signs up with a US company

There is a huge demand for Nokia in other countries

However Microsoft services are severely lacking in those other countries

Am I right?