yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] nicksti:
Barring edits everything is there for all to see.

Post #20 you said the N8 is $600+. Sure if you cherrypick the source. The truth is you are wrong and the N8 goes for around $400. But admitting you were wrong is very difficult.

I know phone prices for a very good reason.

You do not like Nokia smartphones. Symbian is crap, which is your opinion but I agree with you. You think their screen resolution is crappy and the cpu is crappy. Correct again when you look at iPhones, Windows Phones, and high end Android phones. When asked about other crappy internals there is no response (they buy ram from ebay?). And the price thing is just silly the way you seek out sources. i will move on and not derail it.

Vetvito,

More accurately, there is little demand for Nokia smartphones in the USA. I do not understand what you mean by microsoft services.

The Nokia chain of thought is this:

Nokia USA Smartphone sales are suffering while the growth of others manufacturers is exploding. We have two options:

1. Pour more time and resources into Symbian to make it compete

2. Jump onto an existing OS and fast forward progress

People argue that they should have chosen Android. I do not know which one they should choose that would give them the most success, but they could not have brokered the deal they did with Google since Android is open source. So they were probably more inclined to go with Windows Phone.

Will they be as successful in handset sales with WP7 vs if they went with Android? I believe initially no. In the long term it becomes more debatable.
[Windows Phone 7 General] doministry:
Agree here. Especially now using what I use.

However small remark - Symbian UIQ was brilliant and there was a moment it was ahead of it's time. Unfortunately it was a chance never really exploited and wasted in the end.
[Windows Phone 7 General] nicksti:
The paragraph you quoted from N8ter is very true. You will pick up quick sales on glowing objects but you will not keep them if inside is hollow. I think we all agree on the state of Symbian now.

I owned 2 UIQ phones: P1 (still have) and the W960i which were really nice phones. UIQ was very nice at the time. Something went clearly wrong with with the transition from UIQ to the Symbian Foundation.

Amazing how I get called a Nokia fanboy when I have owned a ton of SE phones (W810, W850, W960, P1, Vivaz) and zero Nokias. Never liked how they looked, except for the N95 but that phone was too expensive for me.

I am actually a Motorola loyalist at heart. Modmymoto was the mini version of this website and their linux based phones were as moddable for that time as it got.
[Windows Phone 7 General] MartyLK:
I'm the same way. Though I have owned the freeby contract Nokias...those little plastic'y, flimsy, creak'y candybar types...I never liked the looks of any Nokias. The best looking of them was way too thick for my personal preference. This may change, though, if Nokia brings out the concept-type WP7 phones seen in the news. The one style that has some similar styling ques as the Samsung Focus really blows my whistle. Drop-dead gorgeous. The yellow one is my fav.

Here's the style I like. Apparently the other style with the yellow one is different than I remebered. But I'd love to see this style in yellow: http://www.dancewithshadows.com/tech/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/nokia-wp7-concept-photo.jpg

Here's the style with yellow:

http://techprezz.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Nokia-WP7.jpg

http://www.unwiredview.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Nokia-WP7-Concept-21.jpg
[Windows Phone 7 General] nicksti:
Nice links. I really hope they stick with the colour offerings too! I cannot think of many, if any, high end phones that come in a rainbow of colours.
[Windows Phone 7 General] weijoon:
I feel offended by you N8ter, there are many good manufacturer that is from Asia like Samsung, SE, HTC... We have to choose second tier of phone not because of we want to, but it is mostly because of the marketing strategy of the manufacturer, they decide which model to sold on which country.

FYI, there are tons of user using IP4, HD7, HD2, SGS etc etc which is flagship model that is available for Asia market.

But Nokia, mostly of their model is available in Asia, there are some Nokia hard fans owning their beloved N8, E7 etc etc.

And please allow me to remind u again, we usually get our phone on retailer shop which cost higher than the price you might get from your provider, so maybe Asia is CHEAP in ur POV, but not me, we are more tend to keep our phone until it value last rather than keep changing it because of the differential of the way we acquire our new smartphone .

Come back to the topic, IMO the agreement of Nokia and MS opened a road for MS to the Asia market, especially the OVI Map MS gonna embrace, which provided accurate voice navigation in Asia, thus it might be a big boost for Asia user, cause like me, I'm still using a Nokia phone from my dad as a navigator while carrying my Mozart...
[Windows Phone 7 General] weijoon:
Yup, I agree with your statement, at least in Malaysia, support for MS products are sux... like there is no Xbox Live support in Malaysia, Xboxer must find someway to use a fake address in Singapore to have access to the Xbox Live content...

Another extra info to share:

Many of my friend or collegue started to embrace smartphone, but their primary choices are IP and Android, because of their support in Asia is far more superior than MS WP7...
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
There's barely any constant demand for anything apart from the iPhone in the US. Every once in a while there may be this or that phone that's popular on this or that network. I don't see why it can't be from Nokia.

Nokia, on the other hand, didn't make a whole lot of CDMA phones, didn't like dependance on carriers, and was focusing on "emerging" and less subsidized markets. That in itself doesn't depend on the OS they use. The OS matters because their midrange pricing didn't quite fit well with the operator driven market model, but it's not the defining factor explaining their absence from the US smartphone market.

Now, their decision to dump Symbian may help their US efforts not because Microsoft is a US company (it doesn't have all those awesome relations with carriers either), but mainly because they want to save up billions and spend them better (better may include CDMA smartphones, too).
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
General statements are general. Why feel offended? People talk about how Americans are disgusting here all the time here and I don't cry.

Asians do love to ignore international copyright/trademark laws and create cheap knockoffs of good devices. SciPhone, anyone?

There's a crappy Windows Mobile with WP7 UI on it that just came out recently, as well... Should offer up a great user experience, I think! It's modeled to look just like an HTC HD7.

And the population of Asia is much bigger than you and your dad.

I said many asians, not all asians.

Thanks for your response, however.

As for the N8, it launched at over $600 - fact. The price is down now because Nokia has tons of old stock and they just launched another phone, the E7, at $620. Fact. yes, even older Andorid phones go down in price after they are replaced by upgrades. A Vibrant will not cost the same as a GS4G and definitely won't cost the same as a GS2. iPhone 3GS prices dropped fast when the iPhone 4 was released as well...
[Windows Phone 7 General] nicksti:
Oh...So you were talking about the N8 price at launch now?

Then when I said exactly this:

(notice the use of the word now?)

Your immediate response was a link of a current Nokia retail price. And follow it up by this comment:

Now you are claiming you were talking about a launch price?

So you were comparing a launch price N8 to which price of a 16GB iPhone or Nexus S or Atrix 4G? Cannot be launch because all those phone were much more expensive than $625 at launch, so it would seem you are comparing a launch price N8 to those phones at current price.

This is what happens when you defend a bad statement. The following ones get even worse.

The Nokia Windows Phones will be priced inline with the other Windows phones on the unlocked market based on the specs. You will pay a premium for the construction and camera, but that was the case with the Omnia 7 and Mozart too and the latter's camera is crappy.
[Windows Phone 7 General] nicksti:
Samsung Galaxy S - $650-$700 June 2010

Motorola Atrix 4G - $720+ March 2011 (month after launch)

iPhone 4 - Varied dramatically. Carrier supplied unlocked+no contract $699 in Canada/UK

Nokia N8 - $610 Mid October 2010. $550 Nov 2010.

Source? Wholesale sheets.

Now, I understand why someone would not pay that for an N8 because of the low ram/rom, slow cpu, and low resolution screen. But let me ask a general question:

Why do we care so much about CPU speed when performance matters most? This whole multicore core X GHz reminds me of megapixels in point and shoot cameras. You can blow up a 3.2MP picture to 8.5x11 which is as big as the average consumer will print a picture. Yet people want at minimum 10MPs. So yes, a 1.5GHz dual core CPU will perform better than a single 800MHz, but once you have an efficient OS will you even need all that power?

I will have no problem buying the 800MHz Chassis 2 Windows Phones because I am not the power user. I am probably the average, joe the plummer user.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
^ would you buy a single core 1 ghz home computer today?

The entire market is headed this way for a reason.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Desktop OSes and third party software have gone a long way to adapt to multithreading that takes advantage of multiple cores. On phones, you can launch the Google satnav app (Maps?) on Android 2.3.3 without available GPS signal to instantly see that they don't even separate UI and background threads properly. And there are multiple examples all over lots of OSes and programs of this kind of stuff.

In theory, Google can change Dalvik and rewrite a lot of code in the OS to use more than one core, but it won't affect games at all if they are done in native code (and I suspect most of game engines are).

I wouldn't buy a single core PC. That being said, I'm using a Core 2 Duo notebook and would choose a C2D CPU for my next laptop as well if I could (unfortunately, the other things I'm looking for leave me with i5 as a bare minimum - high end thin lightweight notebooks with SSD storage come only with powerful processors). So hardware horsepower isn't the only, or often the most important, thing.

And of course if I wanted Android it would be much more important than it is in WP7 or iOS.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
Those prices are not accurate for the US market. I'm quite aware that devices tend to be overpriced in some other markets, but those aren't accurate.

People care about processor speed because it directly impacts performance.
[Windows Phone 7 General] nicksti:
US Market prices? Resellers will mark up based on supply and demand in different places, even in the different states in the US. I did not quote you reseller prices, I gave you approximate wholesale prices, which would be a collection of price lists from varying sources. Wholesale prices varying but those prices are accurate. I suspect I know more about phone prices than you do. I suspect you know more about the phone OSes than I do. The important thing is to learn, not know.

Also, just out of crazy curiosity, how do you know Nokia is sitting on tons of old stock? Your objectivity seems to be totally lost, can't you see this? I understand you do not like Nokias, but don't you think you are going too far? You took inventory for them?

Nokia is sitting on tons of old [N8] stock.

Nokia uses a bunch of crap internals. Name the crap internals other than the cpu, ram/rom, and screen resolution? Answer: screen, cpu, ram/rom, etc. Etc????

Hahaha. True story. Funny stuff I tell you.
[Windows Phone 7 General] nicksti:
Well I think it is complicated as to why the market is going in that direction. It is probably the same reason why people choose 1080p in TVs over 720p. Or again the 12MP in a point and shoot digicam.

Sometimes people do not know any better, so businesses push "more" at them at higher prices to meet their own ends. I agree a Dual Core 1.5GHz cpu in a phone can do more than a 1GHz single core, but is the average person taking advantage of the capabilities?

To relate it to the phone OS world, I suspect Microsoft is going to avoid the spec war. Chassis 1 was 1GHz, now Chassis 2 is 800MHz on an upgraded CPU. I know this will become the next argument in X vs Y, but I am more interested in how something performs. And providing excess encourages people to code in excess. Just look at the desktop pc world.
[Windows Phone 7 General] munkeyphyst:
Determining a machine's performance based solely on it's processor speed is foolish.
[Windows Phone 7 General] weijoon:
Well, there is no point to keep this going. FYI, the "Asian" you're claiming here highly possibility is the "Ch*na". Just want to inform you in case you keep thinking the whole Asia = Ch*na. There are also Asian country that do respect for copyrights. Please remember that many smartphone models are genuine product that manufactured in Asia too...

And I decided to halt the argument between the US vs Asia smartphone market / price / support stuff, it is making no sense and it had been far from the discussion for this topic and it is indeed no point if you keep using your POV to tackle others POV, especially from different country and different market strategy approach. I thought at first it should be a clarification and exchange of experiences about how difference it is but not talking about who are more righteous....

End of topic...
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
The same way I know Motorola is sitting on a ton of XOOM stock...
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
I said "a ton of asians" no "all of asia."

You're being retarded. Yes. End this discussion.

Thank you.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
I said the processor has a direct impact on its performance. Seriously, do any of you people have any critical thinking skills?

Or do you seriously think I will notice no performance decrease if I decrease the clock speed of my desktop or even Mobile Phone processors by 35-40%???
[Windows Phone 7 General] munkeyphyst:
Processor speed CAN reflect a machine's relative performance, but it is not the only measure. Your statement was overly simplistic because it suited your particular argumentative stance to be so, but it is not that simple. All other things being equal, yes processor speed CAN reflect performance increase, if the rig is able to take advantage of those speed gains. Furthermore, you just can't compare the relative performance of an Intel chip to an Atom to an AMD based on processor speed, so your simplistic claim proves false.
[Windows Phone 7 General] nicksti:
N8ter, your words were exactly this:

"People care about processor speed because it directly impacts performance." So you are criticizing people's critical thinking skills (which I do not even know what critical thinking skills are. Vs non-critical thinking skills?) when yours come into question. You did say speed and not processor also, which is not a true statement, especially in the desktop world. Munkeyphyst is absolutely correct.

And I think you are confusing the word know with believe. You believe because a product's sales were subpar they must be sitting on a ton of stock. Again you have no idea how much stock of N8s Nokia is sitting on, no matter how much you try to convince yourself you do. You do know know what is in their warehouses, nor can you google that number.
[Windows Phone 7 General] dkp1977:
How come the topic has turned into a discussion US vs. Asia when Microsoft is US and Nokia is clearly Europe (Finland)? oO
[Windows Phone 7 General] weijoon:
Lolz, not sure, ask N8ter. I was just wanna to share with you all about the way MS and Nokia co-op will affect MS market share in Asia based on my humble opinion but it is quite been criticize by somebody else~
[Windows Phone 7 General] Freypal:
Nokia sell well in Europe and Asia so this is a boost for MS.

Nokia have a poor representation in the US so by using MS this gives a boost for Nokia.

Works for both sides so I don't really see the issue with the deal.
[Windows Phone 7 General] nicksti:
Here are the issues that I have seen people say on this board and elsewhere:

#1 - Nokia should have chosen Android for all the reasons they claimed they chose Windows Phone.

#2 - A large segment of Nokia users will not benefit since Windows Phone is for high end devices and Nokia is falling in market share in this area.

To me it is also a win-win. Symbian is the one reason I have not looked at Nokia as a smartphone choice. If Nokia went with Android I would have then considered them. With Nokia going with Windows Phone + Mango I will consider them. Symbian is the reason I could not stand my SE Vivaz (I wish the Neo came out then).

My prediction - Nokia comes out with that concept phone with all the colours and it will be a huge success in Europe. They will still need T-mobile USA (or whoever owns them then) to do well in USA. I would pick up one and maybe even in a statement colour like the canary yellow!
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
It DOES directly impact performance. I didn't say it was the only tihng that did. Storage typle/speed, ram type/speed, BUS speed, etc. do as well.

But I'm not going to go into another tangent argument about something so ****ing trivial. It's getting annoying.

That statement you quoted is entirely correct and no one in their right mind can disagree with it. Dunno why you people are going on and on about. Jesus H Christ.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
No, you misrepresented my statement and started a tangent article. I know China isn't all of Asia. I never said all of Asia. I said "a ton of Asians."

That's your bad, not mine. That poster needs to have a discussion with you. PMs work, I heard.
[Windows Phone 7 General] nicksti:
We are both guilty of this. Truce? You quit acting know-it-all elitist and insulting and we quit nit-picking, read properly and get more informed.

Okay?
[Windows Phone 7 General] Michael-Dallas:
This thread continues to entertain.

I'll just say that an optimized OS and/or application(s) running on a relatively slow proc can perform equally as a poorly written OS and/or application running on a faster proc.

It's the old argument between the hardware and software teams. The hardware team says, you're getting this. The software team says, we need more hardware. Management makes a decision and one team has to fix their stuff to accomodate the decision.

Hard to believe that the Mozilla-compliant browser in my N900 is nearly as fast as IE Mobile on my Focus. And my N900 has 400 cpu cycles less than my Focus. This is just an example.

Michael.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
^ a very bad example.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
But putting a better processor can also make the poor code outperform the optimized code. Android has been a prime example of this. The manufacturers dance around its performance issues simply by throwing in faster processors and in some cases the SoC is pretty much all they changed...

There is more than just clock speed. Some processors have a faster rate at which they process instructions per clock cycle and that can allow them to outperform a processor with a faster "clock speed," but those old processors RIM and Nokia are using are not those.

This is why Intel Processors can often outperform AMD processors that have higher clock speeds. They process instructions more efficiently.

But that's going off on a tangent. The processor speed does directly impact performance and your example is extremely bad.

Nicksti I dunno why you're even bothering to troll me. I'm done with you.
[Windows Phone 7 General] munkeyphyst:
N8ter, repeating it doesn't make it true... In your own post you state that Intel chips with lower processor speeds can outperform AMD chips with higher speeds. Processor speed CAN impact performance, but a faster processor speed does not mean a better performing machine. Stop with the ridiculous absolutes. You're wrong.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
^ I think you're trying to be too technical. Given a specific scenario, you're both right.
[Windows Phone 7 General] munkeyphyst:
If you don't want to be called out on technicalities, don't speak in bombastic absolutes.
[Windows Phone 7 General] nicksti:
I have a question:

Anyone out there considering getting their first Windows Phone solely because of Nokia's decision to make a Windows Phone (or maybe have seen the concept phone and like it)?

If the Nokia phone is as sleek and compact as it looks in the concept, and comes with colour options I am strongly considering getting one. Probably not immediately due to how pricey these phone are new, but probably in 3-4 months.

I like to have a decent camera in my phone; something that I have not experienced with my choice of Android phones (they make them but I have not bought them).
[Windows Phone 7 General] efjay:
It wont be my first but it certainly will be my next. So tired of OEM's using the cheapest components for camera's, skimping on storage and poor support. Nokia produces good cameras, bundles adequate storage, use top quality materials and have support at least no worse than current phone makers. Add in the fact that WP is their main OS and you get the feeling they will be holding nothing back on their devices. Looking forward to the first Nokia WP7 device immensely.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Michael-Dallas:
And Nokia bases their decision on a multitude of factors, including:

1- cost, which is a given

2- what's available at the time of product development kick-off (Nokia has long development lifecycles, perhaps Elop will change this)

3- power-consumption requirements (Nokia prides itself on being a green company and encouraging green behavior)

What you are referring to is what is called the instruction-set. Again, my Nokia N900 w/ a 600MHz ARMv7 proc will render a page in the browser equally as fast as my Samsung Focus w/ a 1GHz ARMv7 proc. IE Mobile is simply an average browser, at best, and gets the job done (the version that will come with Mango will be a dramatic improvement).

The point I am making is, it's a combination of hardware and software, not just hardware.

Michael.
[Windows Phone 7 General] nicksti:
I hope they are working the lines to get some good carrier partners.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Michael-Dallas:
Not my first Windows Phone, but I will get a Nokia Windows Phone if they are available unbranded and unlocked. The only other company that can match or best Nokia in telephony is Motorola. No point in having a smart phone if you get dropped calls, poor reception, and/or poor clarity... might as well get a tablet at that point.

Michael.
[Windows Phone 7 General] brummiesteven:
I'll ditch my Omnia 7 as soon as Nokia release a WP7 handset.
[Windows Phone 7 General] munkeyphyst:
If I didn't already have a focus, I would definitely look into the Nokia offerings. When the N8 came out, I loved the look and camera specs. I was all set to grab it except for the negative reviews concerning the dated OS and web browser. Glad I waited and stepped into the wp7. Love my focus, but would really love the N8's sexy body and camera with wp7's smooth OS and big screen
[Windows Phone 7 General] nicksti:
With the news about how many employees Nokia sent to Accenture and laid off/will phase out it is amazing they did not let someone else do their OS sooner.

I did not even understand where they were going with all these Symbian variations + Maemo + Meego. Time-wasting experiments.