yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[General Topics] jerm1027:
I'd say it's perfectly ethical. You payed for a phone with those capabilities, and you are paying to use that data. The phone is yours and there isn't anything wrong with rooting it and tethering it to other devices. If anything, it's unethical for the carriers to lock you out of the native functions of *YOUR* phone and expect you to pay extra to use them. That's just plain robbery.
[General Topics] Product F(RED):
THANK YOU. When you have unlimited data, I mean truly unlimited (Sprint), at least it's a little questionable (doing it, not paying for it I mean). With carriers like AT&T that cap, without a doubt you have the right to tether. Especially @ 2GB? That's nothing. If you're paying for 2GB and not using all of it with your phone, you absolutely have the right to finish the rest of it with your computer(s).
[General Topics] freakzone:
Hi, I think you could be making a wrong assumption here. You are comparing a contract with a private company to the law - an uninsured driver. Now the law is the law, you can't steal, kill, piss on the road etc. That's OK.

Contracts are a different matter, the fact that something is written in a contract does not mean that you need to honor it. This is simply because all clauses need to comply with the law of the relevant country. For instance someone gets employed in the current economy at an annual salary of 25K, but should they leave within 2 years, they will owe the company 250K for something and that is written in their contract. No court would judge in the company's favor as they haven't provided the other party with 250K+. This is just an exaggerated example.

You pay for say unlimited data which you are supposed to use. You can use it on the phone, or you can pop the sim in another phone, or a tablet, a laptop, or you could tether, what difference does it make. It is not the user's fault that some wacko decided to advertise a service they were not intending to provide.

I was looking for home broadband in the UK and I saw 'unlimited data*' and then '*-fair usage policy 5GB', now is it unlimited or is it 5G. People don't read, sign it, then the company argues they 'signed' it and it will want a whole bunch of money, they just decide to put up with it. How hypocritical is that?

I had an ISP a while ago and I was downloading/uploading quite a lot, once I had 1.5TB traffic (combined upload and download from the statistics on their website) for a month, I usually had 0.5-1TB and this went on for a while, no one said anything as it was unlimited.

I think that services are becoming more expensive due to inflation, raising overhead and other stuff like money hungry CEOs, rather than something being used in a particular way. I read recently that here in the UK on average people don't use 20 hours of their yearly allowance. Seems like everyone is giving their fair share.
[General Topics] Step666:
It is if your data bundle doesn't cover it.

What you're saying is akin to 'I have 500 minutes, I've paid for these minutes, I should be allowed to call whoever/wherever I want'. It simply doesn't work like that.

And no, you haven't paid for that bandwidth, you've paid for the service of being able to use up to a certain amount of data in a manner prescribed in your contract/service agreement.

You haven't paid for [x]GB, you've paid for [x]GB

on your phone

.

You have spectacularly missed my point.

Insurance premiums are, in part, as high as they are because costs incurred by the like of uninsured drivers or people who commit insurance fraud have to be covered, so those costs are passed on to all the other paying customers.

The fact that the law dictates you have to have insurance if you drive is neither here nor there, it has no bearing on this.

Another analogy would be train passengers.

Some of them make journeys without paying, so ticket prices are calculated to cover the costs incurred, meaning that the paying customers end up having to cover for those that steal.

It's the same in any industry, paying customers end up being responsible for those that steal.

Costs have to be covered, so they get dumped on everyone else.

As I said before, if AT&T or Verizon or whoever you're with didn't honour the terms of your contract, you wouldn't just sit back and let them get away with it, would you?

So why should they?
[General Topics] inconceeeivable:
To address your first point, does a carrier pay more if I access the desktop version of engadget.com on my phone vs. accessing it on my laptop through my phone? Are there long distance fees? Don't understand your point there.

If you tether, you are using the data on your phone. As a wireless router, your phone is still the device connecting and using the data, no? Don't understand the distinction.

Agree to disagree I guess.
[General Topics] dani26286:
its simple man, either step666 doesnt know what hes talking about, or hes just fighting to spread propaganda !!! dont give to much into it.
[General Topics] colbyrainey:
I agree...I absolutely despise the fact that carriers (in my case T-Mo) want to charge you for the same data usage twice! Isn't $40 a month enough?! The extra $15 a month tethering charge plus the throttling that I'm sure they do is enough to piss a nerd off :) Thank the lord I guess I haven't tethered enough through CM7 to be noticed by T-Mo. I do have my user-agent on my browser set to IE6 though, so I'm wondering if that helps.
[General Topics] FLAC Vest:
Technically it isn't ethical because you're going against the ToS in the contract (I'm guessing that's stated somewhere in there) but I'm not against it. Luckily for us the N1 isn't really covered by carriers so it allows for free tethering out of the box.

For argument's sake however, I'm paying for the bandwidth and I don't see any logical reason why i can't use my phone to tether to my computer. If anything I'm using more bandwidth at one time, thereby increasing the chances I go over or would "want" to upgrade and get more data. There is no losing situation for ATT in this.

I could see where this could be a problem if you have the unlimited data plan and you're using the tethering to get "astronomical" amounts of data (over 10 gigs) however, that really isn't our problem is it?
[General Topics] Nayfuslis:
I will not pay
[General Topics] inconceeeivable:
Oh yeah, almost forgot. AT&T probably drops 60-70% of calls from my house. Is there anything in the contract about providing decent service?

I'm on T-Mobile right now, simply because I cannot afford to be forced onto a data plan at the moment (AT&T will not let you use a smartphone without one). Unfortunately, T-Mobile only has Edge where I live though...seeing as AT&T is the only 3G GSM provider in my area, I'm planning on switching back when I can afford it.

Your "free market" theory may work well if you live in a big city, but the choices are very slim in less populated areas (my city has 50,000 or so).
[General Topics] Ferrari353:
yes it's ethical. You pay for x amount of data. You should be able to use it how you want.
[General Topics] Ferrari353:
So if I buy paper towels, and I cut them in half and use it as toilet paper (I don't actually do this, I just couldn't think of a good analogy), should I go to jail? The paper towels weren't meant for wiping my ass with, but I'm using them for that purpose.

Tethering isn't exploiting the company and it has absolutely zero negative effect on the company. The only reason they charge more is because they're cheap and all they care about is getting as much money as possible.
[General Topics] FLAC Vest:
Exactly. If I choose to buy a car, tear it down and make art with the parts, can the manufacturer sue me for not using g the car as I would like?

If you logically think about it, charging for tethering and requiring ppl to pay for it is plain stupid and very greedy on their part.
[General Topics] kenstyle:
I paid for VZW's ridiculously overpriced tether service for about 2 months because I was too afraid to root my phone.

I just rooted my Incredible yesterday, and I can't be any happier. I was at the Barnes and Noble today working on a powerpoint presentation, and the cafe wifi was slower than Sarah Palin. Flipped on the tether on my DInc, and bam, I was up and running again. :cool:

The way I see it, free tethering just makes up for all the extraneous little charges VZW has done to me over the years. :)
[General Topics] freakzone:
I checked a bit the providers in the UK and a few other countries and strangely enough they do not charge for tethering, but you have a data cap, mine is 1GB

It seems to be a US thing, is that the case?
[General Topics] marccus:
Hi

Here is a great thread about tethering,some of the analogy on there are hillarious,like the coca cola analogy lol.

IMO if you have say 5gb then you should be able to use it how you want.

I think the mobile operators are trying to say when you tether you use more data lol How can you use more data if it is limited.

Great site btw,i look forward to spending some time here as i am about to start using android and there are some great guides for rooting etc here.

Cheers

Edit,i just had to remove the link because iam a newbie:(

Go to carrypad.com and look up "on tethering a response to james kendrick"

Big firms are taking the p in my opinion and because there is huge ammounts of money involved they get away with it.
[General Topics] Black6spdZ:
Are the paying customers paying for the extra seat that would have otherwise gone unoccupied or the additional 5c worth of fuel needed to move the extra body? :D
[General Topics] givmedew:
It's it just as ethical as downloading an eminem cd off the internet! Are you going to go to jail no are your friends going to look down on you probably not are you breaking one of the 10 commandments I believe so. If I'm not mistaking it's the stealing one. Theft of service is theft. Keep it to a minimum and you probably wont get cought do it a lot and you deserve a $1000 bill.
[General Topics] givmedew:
Some thing that should be noted is that with Verizon you don't have a limit on the phone that is because you probably wont use tons of data but with the tethering there is a limit because you are more likely to use a lot. Also remember if you bought a 4g mobile broadband device the prices are $20/1gb, $35/3gb, $50/5gb, and $80/10gb

So Verizon's $20/2gb for tethering is very fair.

One last thing. With Verizon's tablets you get free tethering because in that situation you are actually paying for x amount of data so they don't care how you use it. This further backs that it's not ok to steal the tethering service and that verizon's fee is fair. If you where paying $25/2gb and tethering was extra then you could complain.
[General Topics] Nayfuslis:
Not ethical in my opinion
[General Topics] inconceeeivable:
Tethering within your cap is not even in the same league as piracy. If you tether and use 50GB of data, then yeah, you deserve to get charged or shutdown. If you use less than your monthly allotment of data, then you have done nothing wrong. I just don't understand how you people call it stealing. It's data that you've paid for!

LOL I don't even tether...don't know why I care enough to keep responding to this thread...just that bored I guess...
[General Topics] krispygreen:
Hell yeah it's ethical

ok basically when we signed up fo a contract, we agreed to pay a x$/month for using a certain device and it's capabilities with an amount of xGB/month basically fo those who doesn't have a unlimited plan like me. If they let use one of their devices with the ability for tethering, they shouldn't make us pay more for that cuz that would be a break of contract from them. As long as we pay the basic amount that I, as the customer, agreed to pay to the company based on a monthly plan.

And even if we tether from the cell phone to a laptop, the laptop cannot use more than what the cell phone can use as bandwidth speed and usage. So why paying more for data that we already paying for. What is the reason for such progress in technology, if it's for sucking up my money, i'll stick to broadband and wi-fi for my laptop and cell phone, since the world was fine before mobile data came.
[General Topics] FLAC Vest:
Lol well that's the first time I've read something related tto the bible on here.

Is it stealing? I could argue that it isn't. I paid for this bandwidth and I should be able to use it however I please...

how does using an application that allows me to use what I bought stealing in any wway?
[General Topics] dani26286:
well ... for people that think god needs their money in order for him to listen to their preirs ... although as pathetic as it sounds, it doesnt surprise me at all !
[General Topics] FLAC Vest:
I think he was referring to the pprinciple of the matter... which makes sense to me... however i believe that the overall principle of me paying for a service on top of a conjoining service doesn't make sense.
[General Topics] dani26286:
exactly !!! yet they still go on promoting such non-sense, thinking that most people arent aware of specific details ! thats where you a bit off,carriers, and youre the ones that are making fools of yourselvs , continously ...
[General Topics] Aǀanrocks15:
Not paying here :D
[General Topics] Raz0rPwn3r:
My phone Motorola defy, did not originally include tethering as the stock firmware is 2.1. However, I flashed froyo onto it, and I now can tether without paying.
[General Topics] Step666:
Surprise, surprise - once again you have nothing meaningful to say so you resort to petty insults.

If you choose to take out a contract with a network knowing that the coverage is poor where you stay, that's hardly their fault, is it?

You got

that part

right.

You're comparing a physical product to a service, the two are completely different.

When you buy something you own it and therefore can basically do what you want with it; you don't own the inclusive usage on your contract, you are limited by the terms and conditions of the agreement.

Or put simply, you don't sign a contract when you buy paper towels, do you?

And I could argue the world is flat but it wouldn't make me right.

You, and everyone else in this thread, can argue what you like but it makes absolutely no difference - if you tether without paying to do so, you're stealing and that's illegal.

As for morals and ethics, this isn't one of these 'stealing to feed a starving family' situations and none of you are Robin Hood, this is just good old-fashioned 'stealing 'cos you'd rather not pay'.
[General Topics] FLAC Vest:
First of all, you're wrong.

If I believe that using bandwidth that I pay for in any way possible is not stealing, then it is not stealing.

I do not believe that what I am doing (tethering without a plan) is stealing.

Now you have to look at it from different viewpoints: who is ATT to tell me what I am doing os stealing? Since when is their opinion more important or more right than mine?

If Verizon started allowing people to ttether for free, would att call up Verizon and tell them that people are stealing their data? No.

And if you do believe that I am stealing, please explain to me, what exactly is it that I'm stealing?
[General Topics] I Am Marino:
Dead on. Thank you.

Sent from my Incredible with the XDA Premium App.
[General Topics] dani26286:
haha ... u funny too ,step ... but c'mon !!! you cant be SUCH a hypocrite. cash in your check and give it a rest already.

(i wonder under what " vale" u hide your self on tmo forums on the matter ... and im JUST chalenging you to actually THINK ... i dont take anything written here as personal, EVER... just a debate, in "colorfull" text, to be more precise about the points in trying to make ... ;) have a good one man, and dont forget your nose behind ! ^_^
[General Topics] I Am Marino:
What in the hell? You lost me at the first sentence.

Sent from my Incredible with the XDA Premium App.
[General Topics] dani26286:
i know, sorry... i took the quote from u by mistake, instead of taking it from step, but in the end i figured i would use it as such, agreeing with the post you also did ... didnt intend to confuse you...
[General Topics] FLAC Vest:
You should really stop posting.
[General Topics] dani26286:
why? .......
[General Topics] Step666:
No I'm really not.

Are you serious?

Or is this actually a brilliant reference to an RvB PSA?

If you are serious; so what you're saying is that if I believe that breaking into Best Buy in the middle of the night and making off with as many TVs as I can fit in my car isn't stealing, then it's not stealing?

Belief has nothing to do with it though.

They are the company whose terms and conditions you agreed to when you started using their network.

It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of you having entered into a legally-binding agreement.

Aside from the fact that this is completely absurd, you're correct, AT&T wouldn't do that nor would they have any right to do so.

Verizon's terms and conditions are not AT&T's concern and vice versa. Just because one network offers inclusive tethering, that doesn't mean customer on other networks are suddenly entitled to it.

You are using a service you're not paying for, it's like hooking yourself into the power grid without paying or getting cable TV without paying.

Just because there isn't a physical item involved, that doesn't mean you're not stealing.

Now that I have addressed your points, can you answer me this...

Do you not understand how contracts work? That when you sign up you are agreeing to a large number of terms and conditions that you are then legally bound to comply with?

All that small print means something you know...​

Well, we agree on one thing at least ;)
[General Topics] designfears:
This is exactly how i see it. Carriers are just trying to get every extra dollar they can from you. IMO text/voice/data plans are way out of proportion to what they should be. Texts are so minuscule its amazing they can still get away with $10+ packages.
[General Topics] cmurray77:
Seriously.. Come on people.. Its like having multiple phone in your house.. You don't get charged more because you have 3 phones on your home line. Only get charged more if you go over your allotted amount.. I will use my data as I see fit. Not paying for tether.. I paid for my phone and I pay for my service I will use it as I see fit..
[General Topics] cmurray77:
Every body is entitled to there opinion.. No matter how wrong they are..
[General Topics] I Am Marino:
I don't see the argument against this. We pay for data, some with caps, mine is 5GB. Why am I not allowed to simply share MY being paid for data with a device of my choosing whether it's a tablet, a less fortunate friend, or just on the go. If I go over my data cap, then I deserve to be charged, before then, should be open game.

I am not stealing anything. I'm sharing my own service essentially as it's provided to me.

This whole topic comes down to carrier greed and wanting to tie us into more legal contracts. We may have signed contracts to not use unauthorized tethering but this topic is about how fair that part of it is and the morality.

Sent from my Incredible with the XDA Premium App.
[General Topics] rialsi6:
Lol. To funny.
[General Topics] dani26286:
as a side note, there, flac, u, and NONE of u have the least right to make me do or not do anything ... first of all. and, everybody else left... none of u are right !!! u know why ??? cuz step666 said so !!! dont forget !!! get a life man ... or, better yet, some moral values !!! ( step666 : " no, cuz thats not in the contract " O_o / well, brother, you and yor contract are both as sketchy as the next douche hanging arround ) ( and IM NOT INSULTING U... ITS WHAT YOUR POSTS MAKE ME UNDERSTAND... ok??? ... so calm the f/_/ © K down !!! ...)
[General Topics] Black6spdZ:
Incorrect.. it is only a breach of contract, not law, and the carrier can only cancel your service. You have already paid for the data as many have already stated.

There are way many more injustices in this world worth *****ing about.. for instance at least in my state it is mandatory law to carry liability insurance on your vehicle.. so why is it I have to pay more for every vehicle I add? I can only drive one at a time! Liability insurnace should charge for the highest value vehicle and encompass everything else!
[General Topics] Product F(RED):
Agreed. Also, for the past 4 months, I've been getting 100-500 kbps speeds, even below, on average from Sprint. I believe that's them failing to provide me with the services I'm paying for, and allows me to leave without penalty (ETF). But I'm staying with them because they're crediting me for it and working on the issue (overcrowding). Also, they are the last reasonably-priced national carrier left. You can't even argue in T-Mobile's favor anymore with their recent plan changes.

Truly Unlimited* Data, Text, and Talk for $79.99

*2GB of full-speed data per month
[General Topics] drae52:
Personally I see tethering as no different from using a router.

Your phone takes the incoming signal and distributes it to other connected devices.

Your router takes the incoming signal and distributes it to other connected devices.

My ISP doesn't charge me extra for having a router. They don't charge me based on the number of devices connected to their data stream; they charge me based upon a cap amount (say $80 for 120gb)

Carriers should (and in most cases do) charge the same way. Pay for the bandwidth (say $20 for 2gb).

IMO which device is using the data stream shouldn't matter, because you are paying based upon the functions of that data stream; not upon the functions of the device.

An obvious caveat to this line of thinking is truly unlimited data plans; as tethering easily leads to increased bandwidth consumption. When your capped, or billed by usage; this is a none issue. With unlimited it is; IMO it is totally reasonable for the carriers to charge you for tethering if you have a truly unlimited plan.

With the advancements of cellular technology I also believe it is time for carriers to stop charging for txt msgs. It's just data after all; at one point charging for txts was an appropriate method of charging for data, because this was the primary function of data over the network; it no longer is and carriers should revise their billing methods to reflect this.

I'm with Telus; they don't charge me for tethering thank god, but generally we Canadians pay more per GB of data then from other carriers.
[General Topics] inconceeeivable:
I just don't understand the distinction between using your phone directly and using it as a router. The page requests that your computer makes still go through the phone, no? It's still technically your phone downloading, no? Maybe I just don't understand how routers work. (Edit: Err...yeah, what the above post said...)

Stealing cable is illegal because it costs the company to provide those channels. Until I see evidence that tethering within a cap costs the carrier an extra dime, I'm not going to acknowledge this analogy as relevant. The equivalent action to stealing cable would be to connect to the network without a subscription/plan at all.

Look man, I applaud you for taking a tough position and standing by it. Having said that, I don't really understand why you're going to such great lengths to demonize these people. I do not tether...but this attitude that it's somehow stealing and should be punishable just as stealing a car would be is frankly somewhat offensive.
[General Topics] Product F(RED):
Routers work like this. Keep in mind that with cell phones, they act as both the router and the modem:
[General Topics] chriscalifornia:
I have no issue with rooted tethering ;)
[General Topics] FLAC Vest:
That's exactly how I feel. There's really no need for the extra charge and they're finding every way they can to tax us for using something that's becoming (if it already isn't) a necessity in our lives today.
[HTC Inspire 4G] EightEight:
Otterbox Communter in stock at newegg.com for $19.99 free shipping. HURRY:)
[HTC Inspire 4G] EightEight:
That was fast, out of stock again. Next time people. :(
[HTC Inspire 4G] Numpangx:
Actually its still in stock i just ordered one. Ok nvm i guess i got the last one lol.