yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Epic 4G General] 063_XOBX:
On the subject of it being a theme, I zoomed in on the image (couldn't help myself) and in the picture showing the "About Phone" screen the build # looks like ED12, but it's very blurry so don't take my word for it.
[Epic 4G General] Jez2cool:
go get a better look ACS
[Epic 4G General] shabbypenguin:
:O

the ed12 is a lie :P

>.>
[Epic 4G General] 063_XOBX:
Well that is unnecessarily suspicious...
[Epic 4G General] k0nane:
It's Shabbypenguin. What do you expect? :p
[Epic 4G General] Jimmyjoe:
Still No Permission...
[Epic 4G General] shabbypenguin:
i take it no one here is a portal fan? :P
[Epic 4G General] 063_XOBX:
I already know the cake is a lie, the question is if the ED12 is..
[Epic 4G General] Quis89:
I knew that prior to seeing it reported on the site. Any person who works for Sprint knew that since material had been sent out indicating it. Plus leaked images of the Sprint employee Playbook stated that as well.

Sorry...not to be a jerk...but the "know it all's" kind of irritate me. I'm sure everyone appreciates the tips...the added conceit isn't required...
[Epic 4G General] evohog:
Link wont give access. I registered but still no dice.
[Epic 4G General] 063_XOBX:
Things usually take longer than a minute to change...
[Epic 4G General] evohog:
My first post said reply unsuccessful so there you go
[Epic 4G General] 063_XOBX:
If you read the message, a moderator has to approve you. None are currently online so, you'll have to wait for one to.
[Epic 4G General] muyoso:
How long does it take for an account to be activated over on the ACS forums usually?
[Epic 4G General] k0nane:
They're being attended to ASAP.
[Epic 4G General] Jez2cool:
Access for all new user is being worked on and well be up soon
[Epic 4G General] ThrIsNoSpork:
Sweet. Guess ill twiddle my thumbs and press refresh like everyone else!
[Epic 4G General] evohog:
Thanks for the update. Much appreciated.
[Epic 4G General] zanderman112:
The cake is not a lie! Lol jk. Back on the current topic, If its really an ed12 rom, yippee for whoever got it. If its not, we can wait a couple of months. At least this time there aren't any promises to be broken.

Sent from my QWERTY-ified, Gingerbread-less Nexus S 4g.
[Epic 4G General] 063_XOBX:
I know it already leaked to the CM7 team, since they added fixes from it to their Github, I'm just surprised it may be publicly leaked since they didn't want to jeopardize their source.
[Epic 4G General] zanderman112:
Hmm, I didn't even know about that. I feel sad now..

Sent from my QWERTY-ified, Gingerbread-less Nexus S 4g.
[Epic 4G General] Jez2cool:
cm7 does not have this
[Epic 4G General] Jez2cool:
if this is this :p
[Epic 4G General] GucciPilot:
Maybe tannims fully working recovery and an ed12 rom? Say it ain't so!!!
[Epic 4G General] Jez2cool:
is link working for anyone yet... it has been updated
[Epic 4G General] djbacon06:
nope, still denying me.
[Epic 4G General] Jimmyjoe:
Ditto... Same Here
[Epic 4G General] muyoso:
Cool, thanks for the quick response.
[Epic 4G General] Jez2cool:
give the adim a few to get everything done
[Epic 4G General] Jimmyjoe:
Account validated and Link works... Thanks!!
[Epic 4G General] Jez2cool:
No Problem
[Epic 4G General] djbacon06:
ok the link is working now, thank you.

The link is to the same picture, but larger. It looks like the build does in fact say Gingerbread ED12. Just screen shots for now, but i know good things are coming. Thanks ACS!
[Epic 4G General] evohog:
Looks damn good. Now I'm gonna be wearing out the refresh button waiting for a dl link,lol. Can't wait. Thanks jez2cool for the quick responses, much appreciated.
[Epic 4G General] shabbypenguin:
might want to ease up on the F5

i broke mine waiting for the nexus announcement :(
[Epic 4G General] ZiggSVO:
I'm jealous! I cant register for your forum because I'm at work and the military blocks that site?? WTF...stupid big brother...
[Epic 4G General] || Acer ||:
If you look a few pages back, the picture is posted but its kinda small. I don't see why they can't just take the image and post it on like tinypic or something so we dont have to register to see it.

Sent from my Samsung Epic
[Epic 4G General] crawrj:
Because they are trying to promote the site. This is no different than marketing a company. Plus they are potentially going to be the first to give us Gingerbread so I don't mind at all.

Sent from my SPH-D700
[Epic 4G General] ZiggSVO:
Is this the pic in question?? Big brother is blocking it lol

Can anyone rehost it or something for those of us who are deprived? :)
[Epic 4G General] qbking77:
There's going to be a lot of updates in the future coming out of that site, so I would highly recommend just making an account over there. Trust me, the ACS team is working hard to provide us with some great stuff :D
[Epic 4G General] Jez2cool:
what base?
[Epic 4G General] Jez2cool:
:D hahahaha
[Epic 4G General] omair2005:
Just registered. the screen shot def says gingerbread.ed12!
[Epic 4G General] poit:
OK, I've looked at the pic......I know it says ED12, but that isn't an Epic in the picture. It would be really cool if ED12 got posted but the pics seem to be faked. Am I missing something here? Or is he bragging that he has a Nexus 4G?....and why would it have ED12 on it?
[Epic 4G General] shabbypenguin:
if im not mistaken thats not the epic or nexus its the vibrant
[Epic 4G General] Jez2cool:
No bragging just a Preview an that is an Epic not an Nexus
[Epic 4G General] Esteway.619:
It is the vibrant. But why does it have sprint stuff on it and the last pic it shows the 4g icon on the notification pull down. Im confused lol
[Epic 4G General] globalninja:
Bad editing? LOL
[Epic 4G General] Jez2cool:
Time and patience will bring you answers lol
[Epic 4G General] shabbypenguin:
my apologies the vibrant has a chrome ring to it, the fascinate does not however.. but either way.. sorry for the bad image..
[Epic 4G General] bondosho:
Oh you.....:-P
[Epic 4G General] Jez2cool:
Oops my bad
[Epic 4G General] incisivekeith:
Does it mean then, that like Bonsai, the GB ROM will be exlusively available to the members of the ACS Web site?
[Epic 4G General] Jez2cool:
not at all
[Epic 4G General] zanderman112:
Lol, I hadn't noticed the wrong phone in the pic. Good eyes people.

Sent from my QWERTY-ified, Gingerbread-less Nexus S 4g.
[Epic 4G General] Jez2cool:
Neither did I SMH...
[Epic 4G General] Whosdaman:
Aww wtf lol....still maybe my contact in Sprint has some news for us
[Epic 4G General] zanderman112:
We'll accept any good news we can get lol

Sent from my QWERTY-ified, Gingerbread-less Nexus S 4g.
[Epic 4G General] shabbypenguin:
absolutly not, ACS will never charge for "early/beta" access, all of our projects will be posted on xda. the big difference is whats going on with the team. as well as its a site for all of our users, indulge, evo, and the epic to come together. the only thing that irks me about new people joining is i had some guy try to take my arcade crown* away :P

*not a real prize, but instead is made up by myself as i have the high scores on all of the games there
[Epic 4G General] k0nane:
This! All of our releases will always be posted here at the same time as ACSyndicate.net and you will never need to register anywhere to download. We don't plan to violate XDA rules. But we do encourage you to register... to beat Shabby's scores! Kill the penguin! ;)
[Epic 4G General] shabbypenguin:
yea lol the new guy got 12k in tetris, about 600 more points then my score.. so i went back and got 26k :) should keep him busy for a bit :P
[Epic 4G General] Jez2cool:
Showoff!!!
[Epic 4G General] ZiggSVO:
WPAFB

10 chars
[Epic 4G General] ZiggSVO:
Hey if it wasnt for alot of reading and your wonderful videos I wouldnt have been able to help her at all lol
[Epic 4G General] Jez2cool:
aww sorry lol army guy here
[Epic 4G General] poit:
OK, so I'm assuming that Jez2cool had all the best of intentions when he posted that pic, but it's got to be Photoshoped. So how about letting us in on the big secret? And maybe a download link for all the Gingery goodness.:D
[Epic 4G General] k0nane:
Well yeah, of course it's Photoshopped, how do you think he got the screenshots into the phones? :P

It's real. And it's coming. Relax, be patient.
[Epic 4G General] ilostmypistons:
Your my hero kOnane cant wait to see what ya cook up:D
[Epic 4G General] incisivekeith:
Thank you!
[Epic 4G General] shabbypenguin:
ever see kitchen nightmares? k0 is the one who taught Ramsay ;)
[Epic 4G General] djbacon06:
he sure is one hell of a chef.

Shabby, it looks like all your arcade trophies have been stolen! watch out!
[Epic 4G General] Jez2cool:
Coming soon!!;)
[Epic 4G General] jusez0r:
I feel like a little kid on Christmas, I just hope I don't find out Santa isn't real!
[Epic 4G General] || Acer ||:
Can we at least know if it's going to be an update.zip or a ROM? :p
[Epic 4G General] zanderman112:
My guess, a rom. Update.zip would be too simple lol and they wanna get ahead of the competition lol. Am I right.

Sent from my QWERTY-ified, Gingerbread-less Nexus S 4g.
[Epic 4G General] || Acer ||:
Mehh, if that were the case I'd hope that they would make an update.zip and THEN a ROM so that way I wouldn't have to root my phone yet xD.

But whatever, ROM or update.zip I'm flashing it either way unless it's buggy and CM7 gets a beta/RC.
[Epic 4G General] muyoso:
Awesome news that its coming. Can anyone on acs give a small hint as to the overall stability/buginess of the ed12 leak? I assume that some or all of you at least tried out the stock build before you began optimizing it. Just want to know a general opinion on the leak compared with prior leaks and official builds.

Thanks.
[Epic 4G General] || Acer ||:
+1.

And also, I notice in the screenshots it's definitely TouchWiz 3.0.

I'm probably being impatient lol, but do you guys have any plans to port over TW 4.0 soon, or will that come much later?
[Epic 4G General] zanderman112:
+1 very important question. I noticed that they were 3.0 and was hoping it was a theme, then got immediately disappointed when I found out that this was legit.

Sent from my QWERTY-ified, Gingerbread-less Nexus S 4g.
[Epic 4G General] incisivekeith:
Just for the purpose of managing expectations, could you mention if "soon" means hours or days? :)
[Epic 4G General] k0nane:
You've forgotten the cardinal rule: ACS does not do ETAs! Ever!

;)
[Epic 4G General] mattallica76:
Samsung should implement that rule.
[Epic 4G General] ericizzy1:
ok, dont give an ETA, give us a leak ;-)
[Epic 4G General] k0nane:
In case you haven't noticed... ;)
[Epic 4G General] Darkshneider:
Oh you... you... ...
[Epic 4G General] insanity213:
The only question/comment/request I have at this point about GB in general - Is audio routing to bluetooth still all whacked out? Like when I have the phone jacked into the head unit in my truck I can't route anything to bluetooth audio. I pledge a bottle of good single malt scotch to whoever fixes that bastard bug. Drives me up a damn wall!
[Epic 4G General] ttieder:
I think this a joke but I hope it isn't can't wait
[Epic 4G General] k0nane:
No jokes. 10char
[Epic 4G General] zanderman112:
I think they have learned from past mistakes. No broken promises for gb, cause no eta's have been given.

Sent from my QWERTY-ified, Gingerbread-less Nexus S 4g.
[Epic 4G General] k0nane:
Let me rephrase. The only joke here is Shabbypenguin. ;) ;)
[Epic 4G General] Jez2cool:
haha Indeed
[Epic 4G General] shabbypenguin:
:P might have been funny if i had posted that :P
[Epic 4G General] BeerChameleon:
This is exciting, i might have to jump ship over from bonsai, and try this when this comes.

I assume this will be 2.3 ACS custom rom coming?? :D

@zanderman if it is a custom rom, u better get on board with rooting :D

How u lasted so long not rooted and have ads and Carrior iq on your phone is shocking to me.

think its finally time to bite the bullet and get in the rooting scene :D
[Epic 4G General] shabbypenguin:
if it it was an update.zip it wouldnt be official... aka no cookies for ju!
[Epic 4G General] incisivekeith:
Okay, I was trying to narrow this down to hours or days, assumig that you or any other member would not hint at it unless it was pretty close. I guess it was fair to ask how close ACS was. But, based on your response and the other posts after your response, it seems it could be a couple of days, maybe. Thanks.
[Epic 4G General] k0nane:
We always release stock first. ;)
[Epic 4G General] || Acer ||:
Does that mean it can be an update.zip? :D:D:D:D:D
[Epic 4G General] BeerChameleon:
Damn k0ane don't tell me that :( lol

Sent from my Epic 4.0.1g bonsai plant
[Epic 4G General] deano0714:
:) this will help a bunch of devs!
[Epic 4G General] k0nane:
And you know I don't build on leaks! ;) But trust me, you'll like what you'll all see soon.

You're not getting an OTA-like update for non-rooters... But I'll say this much, you'll see a simple zip flash + modem flash (Odin - and optional!).
[Epic 4G General] iSaint:
Can't wait dude thanks to everyone at ACS
[Epic 4G General] zanderman112:
First of all, hi David.

Second of all, im fine with my phone the way it is. I'm buying a nook color soon, so i'll get into rooting with that.

Post in nook section: http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1043508

Post in epic section: http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1043481

Sent from my QWERTY-ified, Gingerbread-less Nexus S 4g.
[Epic 4G General] spyderfry:
Awwww! k0! We won't ask for an ETA if you won't Gingerbread tease. :p

Fair? :D
[Epic 4G General] deano0714:
I've been checking this and the development section like every 2 seconds.... I'm very excited :)
[Epic 4G General] zanderman112:
Well that stinks...

Sent from my QWERTY-ified, Gingerbread-less Nexus S 4g.
[Epic 4G General] k0nane:
Sorry, but there's nothing we can do about it. We can't sign as Samsung or generate modem_delta.bin.
[Epic 4G General] shabbypenguin:
look guys we know your waiting.. so we wanted to showcase another screen. thanks for your patience (and no this one wasnt photoshopped :) )

http://tinyurl.com/6dywjhz

>.>

EDIT: sorry the image is rather large and rather not just post it directly.. as for the url well my domain might.. be offensive to xda :)
[Epic 4G General] rjmjr69:
Damn leaks lol
[Epic 4G General] k0nane:
I know, right?
[Epic 4G General] || Acer ||:
Screw it, then I'm gonna root to get it xD.

Will this be for EXT4 and everything? I feel like that's a noob question O.o
[Epic 4G General] k0nane:
You'll see. ;)
[Epic 4G General] deano0714:
Haha oh darn... Gess you got to root, your almost the only one who browses these forums and isnt rooted... Take it for a ride and you wont turn back.
[Epic 4G General] iSaint:
If they are teasing us this much then it has to be real soon....

They're not that cruel.
[Epic 4G General] ThrIsNoSpork:
Lol @ iPhone running gingerbread. Man I can't wait! Ill be looking to ACS for all future updates from now on cause of this ;)
[Epic 4G General] Darkshneider:
LOL! Youre holding it wrong, always.
[Epic 4G General] || Acer ||:
Blahhh suspense.

You must be enjoying this right now xD
[Epic 4G General] deano0714:
Yeah lets hope so :) I hope its not too buggy.
[Epic 4G General] k0nane:
Nah, I'm just teasing you guys while my team and I work. ;)
[Epic 4G General] zanderman112:
I understand k0nane, it is what it is.

Well i've got Acer on my side, but probably not for long. I'm patient though, and i dont have a reason to root. Although, i wont mind you trying to convince me otherwise ;p

Sent from my QWERTY-ified, Gingerbread-less Nexus S 4g.
[Epic 4G General] iSaint:
Lol ;)
[Epic 4G General] k0nane:
You'll get your freak on soon, don't worry.
[Epic 4G General] zanderman112:
Haha

Sent from my QWERTY-ified, Gingerbread-less Nexus S 4g.
[Epic 4G General] || Acer ||:
Oh I've rooted before, but after bricking my phone three times pathetically I thought I'd want until CM7 or official Gingerbread. :p

Oh, and please, call me Acer. ;)
[Epic 4G General] shabbypenguin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcW3jiwBPPg
[Epic 4G General] Jez2cool:
So much excitement
[Epic 4G General] zanderman112:
Lol ok. Call me Z (someone called me that, and i kind of like it)

Sent from my QWERTY-ified, Gingerbread-less Nexus S 4g.
[Epic 4G General] deano0714:
:( I thought it was a teaser video... I was so exited :(
[Epic 4G General] shabbypenguin:
we we we so excited! tomorrow is thursday and after that comes friday!
[Epic 4G General] zanderman112:
Me too, although when it said "the video is not available on mobile" I flipped in portrait and saw it was a music video.

Sent from my QWERTY-ified, Gingerbread-less Nexus S 4g.
[Epic 4G General] iSaint:
-_- i said that in that ugly girls voice
[Epic 4G General] || Acer ||:
Then what...? :eek::confused:

Too.Much.Suspense!
[Epic 4G General] k0nane:
Then...

...you all get massive Gingerboners!

Warning: this poster may not be suitable for children, teens, adults, the elderly, or Charlie Sheen.
[Epic 4G General] Darkshneider:
#bi-winning lol. This thread has gone down the toilet.
[Epic 4G General] zanderman112:
Agreed, but we are still semi on topic. Oh, what the heck am I talking about, this is long gone lol

Sent from my QWERTY-ified, Gingerbread-less Nexus S 4g.
[Epic 4G General] || Acer ||:
No! We must keep this aliveee!

So..um..how bout them gingerbreads? I hear it's, um, coming soon..:cool:
[Epic 4G General] iSaint:
Yes i heard its supposed to be like this....
[Epic 4G General] BeerChameleon:
Damn sprint iPhone pic!! Btw it says ec05 in the baseband :p

Sent from my Epic 4.0.1g bonsai plant
[Epic 4G General] Darkshneider:
I want my Gingerboner!
[Epic 4G General] zanderman112:
Yeah, I was wondering about that.

Sent from my QWERTY-ified, Gingerbread-less Nexus S 4g.
[Epic 4G General] djbacon06:
root, so then you can change your sig to "Sent from my QWERTY-ified, Gingerbread-ified Nexus S 4g."
[Epic 4G General] zanderman112:
Lol, I'll soon be able to change it to that anyways. Besides, it wouldn't be accurate, because the Nexus S already has Gingerbread.

Sent from my QWERTY-ified, Gingerbread-less Nexus S 4g.
[Epic 4G General] k0nane:
Shabby chose not to Odin the matching modem. As I said before, it's optional. You'll see why we're making it explicitly optional soon.
[Epic 4G General] zanderman112:
P

Edit: looks like my guess is correct

http://briefmobile.com/exclusive-gingerbread-leaked-for-samsung-epic

Original post:

Let me take a guess. It has to do with 4g either not doing something right, or interfering with something.

Sent from my QWERTY-ified, Gingerbread-less Nexus S 4g.
[Epic 4G General] murso74:
hmmmm could this be a leaked nexus s 4g rom converted to epic?
[Epic 4G General] ZHkilla:
Best thing since sliced BREAD!
[Epic 4G General] k0nane:
Take WDM's info with a grain of salt. ;)

No.
[Epic 4G General] Whosdaman:
I got my information from somewhere k0nane ;)
[Epic 4G General] Darkshneider:
And boy this died quickly... -_-*
[Epic 4G General] qbking77:
Patience :-)
[Epic 4G General] || Acer ||:
You better be making a video of flashing & reviewing this :p :D
[Epic 4G General] Darkshneider:
Oh I dont mean the release of the ROM itself, I meant all the jokes and the bi-winning stuffs.
[Epic 4G General] qbking77:
We'll see my friend ;)
[Epic 4G General] zanderman112:
Ya, it has gotten a little slow.

Sent from my QWERTY-ified, Gingerbread-less Nexus S 4g.
[Epic 4G General] poit:
Awesome. :D
[Epic 4G General] Jez2cool:
Better Shots

Here you go again

sign up here for a better look ACS
[Epic 4G General] Darkshneider:
I liked the iMholdingitwrong mock up better, lol.
[Epic 4G General] MДЯCЦSДИT:
Ur forums are great, thanks k0, hope you get a new phone (if you havent already). Acs is a great development team and congrats on being the head chef. I just need to find time to develop for the epic to see if I can score an invite. I developed a nook color rom and I can do themes.
[Epic 4G General] Jez2cool:
It is time to get ginger stand by any moment now
[Epic 4G General] Jez2cool:
you my thank me
[Epic 4G General] NYYFan325:
Just felt my heart stop for a second when I read that
[Epic 4G General] k0nane:
Go to the Development section an have a massive coronary, then. ;)
[Epic 4G General] NYYFan325:
I <3 you guys! Too bad gotta wait till after my delicious Italian dinner to flash it (yeah be jealous lol)
[Epic 4G General] dubledose23:
Cant Wait !!
[Epic 4G General] zanderman112:
It's in the development section right now. Called Leaky Gingerbread, I think.

Sent from my QWERTY-ified, Gingerbread-less Nexus S 4g.
[Epic 4G General] ThrIsNoSpork:
Omg omg omg i love you!
[Epic 4G General] epic2.3:
Stay tuned! More official info coming soon!
[Epic 4G General] warrior420:
like what?
[Epic 4G General] jtw78:
Dude, I hate when people create an account just to throw some troll bait in the water. I'm looking at you epic2.3, if that is your real name.
[Epic 4G General] qbking77:
Check out his original post man. Look at the first post in this thread. He knows what he is talking about.
[Epic 4G General] Kcarpenter:
I the it when people ***** cause they are on their period...

8 outta 10 chance epic2.3 == noobnl
[Epic 4G General] || Acer ||:
Nah, I give it a 9 outta 10. Only two posts and both about the being updated? Noobnl.
[Epic 4G General] shabbypenguin:
nah its not noobnl, had a guy making sites about if froyo was out for the epic ages ago.. dont remember who it was..
[Epic 4G General] 063_XOBX:
I wouldn't call it 8 out of 10, at best I'd give it a 6 out 10 odds with another 2 out of 10 being that it's the Samsung John fellow and the remaining 2 as just a well-meaning person with some useful info.
[Epic 4G General] muyoso:
Its so obviously noobnl. He was the one who was constantly checking those rdf sites for the Froyo release.

Edit: Also Noobnl's last login was "Last Activity: 2nd April 2011 01:03 PM", about a week before this account was made. Wonder why the account is disabled now though.
[Epic 4G General] 063_XOBX:
As long as there's nothing more concrete than speculation, it's just an anonymous tipster. Obvious suspect or not.
[Epic 4G General] theimpaler747:
Thread closed and poster banned due to the poster being a sock puppet account. Feel free to open up a new thread for 2.3 discussion however. Thank you,

-theimpaler747
[Epic 4G General] Esteway.619:
Where's the link of this rumor???
[Epic 4G General] Overstew:
In the op....
[Epic 4G General] Esteway.619:
Ya I just figured it lol. I had a blond moment :D
[Epic 4G General] haas599:
As far as I know it is hardware acceleration for the homescreens and a cool screen off animation.

Sent from my SPH-D700
[Epic 4G General] PythonFanTN:
That's fine, but my point still remains. Simply because 'ED12' exists, there is no way to extrapolate that it means its anything close to a final build. The build history itself up till now that can be found using the URL is proof positive of that fact. Certainly it would stand to reason that after getting past the Eclair-to-Froyo hurdle, there shouldn't be as many road bumps comparatively going from Froyo to Gingerbread, but given its only the first 2.3 build that's appeared, I'd be (albeit pleasantly so) shocked if there weren't at least 2-3 more builds bare minimum that showed up before we started hearing leaked rumors of an actual release given the track record to this point.
[Epic 4G General] Overstew:
Is there a source to this? I cant find anywhere, it stating release is on the 4th of June.
[Epic 4G General] DroidApprentice:
And possible bug fixes, as well as inevitable new bugs. ;)
[Epic 4G General] murso74:
i believe it does more for our phone then for a snapdragon phone... kind of optimized for the hummingbird processor. could be wrong though
[Epic 4G General] 063_XOBX:
More of the logical release.

1 year from the Evo release and one month before the Evo EOL's
[Epic 4G General] EddyBalls:
this looks like such a good find...but i can't view it. thanks though partner!
[Epic 4G General] BeerChameleon:
holy Hell my mouth is still opened in shock :eek: ed12 so should get it late this month or early may
[Epic 4G General] GoogleAndroid:
*sigh* And us Fascinate owners still don't even have 2.2, and it looks like we won't ever have it.
[Epic 4G General] 063_XOBX:
When Verizon insisted on having it Bing'd you had to have known there wasn't much future for it...