yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Epic 4G General] TWO515TY:
This kind of situation is almost similar to guns and modding video game consoles to play backups.

Summary at the bottom.

The situation itself - rooting your phone, owning a gun, modding your console to play backups - does not directly cause harm to anyone else unless you do certain things (tether for free, shoot a person, or pirate games, etc) that may or certainly do cause harm to others.

Sure installing a custom ROM that's rooted doesn't really cause Sprint or any carrier to lose money directly, but the "theft of service" in this case comes down to those who tether their phones for free - it's difficult for us to say how many people do it and how much money Sprint is or isn't losing (I've tethered before, but would never have bought a tethering plan even if I didn't have the option to tether for free) from those who tether for free.

On the "fraud" end, there is the occasional person who *somehow* bricks or damages their phone, then gets it replaced at the Sprint store (some even without the insurance on their phone). The idea is that if people weren't rooting and flashing their phones, they would be less likely to need a replacement. Once again, we can't tell how much Sprint or any carrier loses or doesn't lose from this kind of situation, but obviously it's a big enough concern that the whole industry (and maybe even Google?) is taking action against it.

Realistically the percentage of people who are going to root and flash their phones is small compared to those who don't even know what it is, but that small percentage can make a huge difference if they're tethering and bringing down huge amounts of data and not paying anything extra for it.

Of course it does get a bit more complicated when you consider that some people use large amounts of data on their handsets, even without tethering, but what can the carriers really say to them? Nothing....but if you're rooted and pulling down lots of data by tethering for free, it's easier for them to point fingers and say that you're stealing service. Even if you're rooted and not using much data, they can say that your rooted phone is a security risk. The "security risk" might be more like you've removed the bloatware that would normally bring them extra income ever since you went gangster on them and flashed SyndicateROM to your Epic.

Summary: It's about the money lol. Rooted users represent a potential lost income (free tethering) and also a potential cost (replacing phones damaged due to rooting/flashing) factor to their carriers and manufacturers. They're trying to stop that. I can kind of agree with them, but at the same time it's not fair to those of us that just want to customize OUR phones that we PAID for.
[Epic 4G General] bondosho:
Isn't wired tether a feature of Android 2.2? With wireless tether, can more than one device hook up to the phone? If not, the only difference here is that one uses a cable, and one doesn't. I agree with k0nane, no theft taking place.
[Epic 4G General] punwik:
These carriers are just ****ING GREEDY!!!

What I don't understand, is why they want to charge me to use features which I already have paid for and covered by my unlimited plan? Why do they want to sell me what is essentially a "second line" to use data that I have already bought and paid for? That whole notion makes absolutely no sense to me. I paid for unlimited and use somewhere around 8gb a month between tethering a device or two, and streaming services almost constantly. Why haven't the carriers been brought in line with their own practices to charge for absolutely everything that they deem worthy of a price tag. The network and connections have been steadily drifting towards slower and generally poorer experiences yet they continue to raise the prices higher and higher for the same data stream that has always been there.

Is it seriously just greed? The carriers are always quick to write us off as being a "small population of people" and generally pass off the hacking/rom community as nothing more than a subtle annoyance. When there are crippling bugs on rooted/jailbroken devices... they don't care it's only 1% of the userbase. When they throttle everyone claiming "only 1% of the userbase will be affected don't worry" it, to me, shows an incessant and blatant hypocrisy that is inherent to the system. If they could charge us for how many times we pressed the damn home key they would.

No, This whole fiasco is nothing but bull****, only serves to make me realize that this is not a sustainable hobby. I think it's about time to start paddling this dingy to shore before things really get out of hand, and things are ripped away from us under the guise of "better for the user experience"
[Epic 4G General] eck0728:
No wireless tether is built into Android and is removed by carriers you are simply re enabling it. Now if you were to hack a carriers hotspot app then that's illegal
[Epic 4G General] TWO515TY:
It is, but most carriers remove it. They do have the right to customize the OS how they like, and part of that customization is removing the wireless tethering. Regardless of what features the OS is capable of, you still have to follow the carrier's terms of service - which means that if you want to tether (wired or wireless), you have to enroll in one of their tethering plans.

Like I said in my previous post, the issue comes from those that are rooting and tethering for free, not necessarily just from those who only root and flash custom ROMS, but don't actually tether. The problem is that there's no practical way to distinguish between rooted/custom ROM users who tether for free and rooted/custom ROM users who don't tether for free. Therefore, their solution is to try and prevent all rooting and hacking, in order to prevent all free tethering.
[Epic 4G General] musclehead84:
I read this story and it does make sense. Look at the new HTC phones coming out. The thunderbolt was htc's most locked down phone ever. On sure the rest will be too. I'm betting the evo3d will be tightly locked as well. I want to see how locked the galaxy sII is going to be from Sammy. I want the evo3d but on not getting if its locked down that much. Ill wait and see what sammy does.

Sent From My Evo Killer!!!
[Epic 4G General] TWO515TY:
I kind of agree with you, but from a business perspective, it's not that simple.

The way I understand it, carriers make most of their money from data plans by charging everyone for data usage, regardless of how much they use. This means that they profit the majority of people who don't use that much data on their handsets and break even or lose money on those that use a lot more than the average of those who use a lot less data. I probably don't even use 1GB in a month, yet I pay the same amount for data as you do when you average 8GB a month. And if you review the features of your plan, you'll see that those features (tethering specifically) are not part of your plan - you just happen to know that unlimited means unlimited and that *theoretically* it shouldn't matter if you use more data by tethering or by using your handset a lot. Realistically, it does matter, at least on the carrier side of things.

Now if some of those people who would normally use less data start using up a lot more data because they're tethering their PC's (and believe me, some people will drop their cable or DSL line and tether their phones as their main connection) and other devices, they start breaking even or losing money on a greater number of people.

Whether or not it's greed, I don't know exactly, but the point is that people who tether for free are a source of lost income and potentially an extra cost. Most businesses, if not all, work by minimizing losses and maximizing income and profit. Even if the loss is very minimal, just the principle of the situation is enough to take action against extra costs/lost profit.

Same here. I have some hope that The EVO 3D won't be too locked down. Sprint has generally been the most lenient when it comes to locking down or removing features of their phones. They usually only ever removed or disabled the built in tethering, which is to be expected of any US carrier anyways. I have a feeling the Thunderbolt was locked down more at the request of Verizon than anything (guess they didn't want people to disable Bing on their Thunderbolts LOL), but we wouldn't know unless they came out and said who wanted what locked.
[Epic 4G General] djbacon06:
for some reason after reading this, all I could think of is the line from Monty Python and the Holy Grail

"Come see the violence inherent in the system. Help, help, I'm being repressed!"

but I agree. We paid for the service, we should be able to use it how we see fit (in a perfect world). What's the difference between streaming 2gb of youtube on my device, or streaming 2gb of youtube via wireless tether to my computer? ;)
[Epic 4G General] BeerChameleon:
Um wifi tether 3,0.0 versions is a hacked version if the carriors hotspots it even activates the sprint hot spot when using...

Im siding with k0ane

I pay for unlimited data and 10 additional smartphone fee and should be able to use it how I want and I think it's crap they try to get another 30 bucks to use the hotspots app greedy bastards

Sent from my Epic 4.0.1g bonsai plant
[Epic 4G General] pockermj:
Rooted users also gsave carriers money because if my phone isn't working right I go on XDA... I don't call sprint or go into tha store and bother their personnel... also how bout the people that permanently brick their. Phone and have to buy a new one? And I'm sorry but if I lost a phone in tha past and didn't wanna spend a bunch of money I would buy a cheaper phone, NOW? NO WAY!! Gotta have a android op sys and its gotta have a nice screen and good processor! Gotta! So there are plus and minus to it all.......
[Epic 4G General] RealShady1:
I saw this link pointing to the thread posted over there on droid forums I read thru it and I had some "I wonder?" thoughts starting with the OP. First...I have an HTC, starting a couple of months ago I was getting mandatory update messages that I would ignore, and like clockwork my phones data slowed down for a week, I made comments to people saying "I swear I am being throttled" and sprint denied it along with saying they would never do anything like that. I finally got the time to flash a ROM that had the update in it. I have not experienced a slow down since...but wifi tether no longer functions and I have rumors it may never function again at least in these sense roms I have been using, the devs say HTC and sprint real have it locked up good. Honestly I have only used tethering in a bind and I do think we should be allowed to use it to the limits that we pay for.

Anyway next big brother item...I rooted a friends Samsung a couple of months ago..sprint android...two weeks ago he texts me and says he is getting mandatory upgrade alerts. And his GPS stopped working. I looked at it today, and GPS starts, but won't work, the application GPS assist shows zero satelites. Bit of a coincidence????

I have been seeing in the forums that it is happening to a few of Samsung users on sprint, some have been able to get it working again with old roms briefly.

Lastly this friend of mines phone also switched to unknown network under advanced phone info on the same day.

I think there may be substance to the claims. Which if it is true that sucks, I don't care about tethering, just the freedom to tweak my personal property, like I would with a car, doesn't mean I am going to break the law because I have a cool fast car....you can see where I am going with this.
[Epic 4G General] TWO515TY:
Well for starters, on your computer, you're probably watching those videos in 360p or even higher resolution, which means that you may watch less videos on your computer and hit 2GB (I'm assuming you meant GB and not gb) before you hit 2GB of lower resolution videos on your mobile device. So if you watch the exact same videos and watch the same number of videos, you'll likely have used way less data on your mobile device than on your computer.

See, it's not so cut and dry is it?

Edit: On top of that, you're more likely to watch more videos on your computer since it's faster (well it should be lol. If not, you need a new computer asap) and has a larger screen than your mobile device. At that point, you may end up using more than 2GB of data watching Youtube on your computer as compared to watching them on your handset.
[Epic 4G General] djbacon06:
Are people really doing that? Seems a little far-fetched to me. Mostly because you can't tether and talk on the phone at the same time. Dropping your main internet connection and using free wireless tether sounds like an awesome idea though, I guess (one less bill to pay), but I don't think it is nearly reliable enough for that.
[Epic 4G General] TWO515TY:
I remember when the EVO first came out, I saw a post on the Sprint Facebook of one guy who said he and his wife dropped their home internet connection. They would alternate tethering their EVO's and he said he was glad all he had to pay was an extra $10 (Premium Data) lol.

Now obviously that situation doesn't represent the norm, and I bet that they didn't use the internet that much if they were comfortable replacing a wired connection with a tethered mobile connection. However, it does happen and it does increase the costs to the carriers for those that do so.
[Epic 4G General] djbacon06:
Yes, I meant GB, not gb :). But 2GB of data is 2 GB of data, regardless. I did not mean in the sense of how many youtube videos I could watch, I was just using it as an example of data usage. How about downloading 2GB of pictures on my phone vs downloading 2GB of pictures on my lap top using the wireless tether? Data is data, no matter how you use it.

I see where you're coming from, and you make a good point. But I find it very hard to believe many people are doing this. And if they are, they are probably not doing it via the free wireless tether apps, probably actually paying for the hotspot service so they can have at least *legitimate* technical support, you know? It just doesn't make sense to me that someone who has the know-how to root their phone and wireless tether would want to disable their high-speed internet connection at home.

By the way, all this posted via wireless tether, because my power is out at my house right now :p:D
[Epic 4G General] TWO515TY:
Oh I definitely agree that data is data (net neutrality ftw), but in reality, our usage patterns on our computers are usually more data intensive than those on our mobile devices. It's not always going to be 2GB here vs 2GB there.

Anyways, the real problem is that the carriers don't agree with "data is data", because that means less profit and/or increased costs for them. As businesses, they're all about their skrilla and don't want to lose out on any potential income, especially when it's something that's normally supposed to be paid for (tethering). I can understand their end on the principle part, but as a consumers, our first thought is UNLIMITED means UNLIMITED regardless of how the data is used. That's not how they see it.

LOL, hope your power comes back on soon. I agree, it's not likely that many people do it - like I said, those that do probably don't even use the internet much to begin with. But then again, if they have really good 4G coverage and lax internet usage habits (check email, Facebook, etc.), it's not completely unreasonable to use your mobile as a main connection. My friend runs a convenience store and he averages 5-10 Mbps speed test on his EVO, which is comparable to (and possibly faster than) the DSL line he has at his store lol. He plays games online though, and the latency would kill him, but the only reason he switched to Sprint in the first place was because I showed him how I was tethering my A900 for free...he switched JUST to be able to tether for free because he didn't have the DSL line at the time.
[Epic 4G General] Top Nurse:
You totally missed the analogy. What happened back then (we were actually re-burning the cards) was that DirecTV was coming out with counter programming to stop what we were doing. No big deal we thought as we were always able to re-program around them and gain access. What was not apparent was that DirecTV wa secretly building a program to lock us totally out of the system. It wasn't apparent to us until the eprom code was finally finished by DirecTV (over about 6-7 builds) what they were doing. The access to the eprom came up on the monitor saying "Game Over." And that was all she wrote...think about it....

Sent from Bonsai 7.0.3
[Epic 4G General] gTen:
The thing is tethering isn't a service...if they were providing some sort of service I understand..but all they are doing is reselling what they already sold you..its kinda like you getting pool access but gotta pay extra to do backstrokes in the pool..yeah...also, you don't need root to tether as there are apps like pdanet :/

Also I wonder how thats going to slide into "privacy"..aka for them to actually check what apps you have installed for commercial reasons seems like a violation to me...And yes the reference to CIQ, but carriers can claim that data is anonymous...if they actually go through your data and target you specifically thats already not anonymous...

Though looking at how they identify rooting via OTA push..wouldn't it be possible to just block the carrier via HOST file and the file won't even download...or setup a proxy on the phone and set it to download half the update and crash on purpose..

Of course if they make it a pain to unlock in the first place that would really be messed up...
[Epic 4G General] churro7:
Well i see no illegality in rooting my a property

Sent from Snarf with an Epic
[Epic 4G General] Top Nurse:
BTW, the day I can only get a locked android will be the day I buy an I Phone.

Sent from Bonsai 7.0.3
[Epic 4G General] dchawk81:
I'm one of those silly people who ditched his home internet along with his landline phone and cable TV. That's almost $200 a month I no longer spend, and I don't miss those services a bit.
[Epic 4G General] T-980:
Greed, that's all it is. I use my rooted phone to tether at work...but I don't do anymore surfing then i would on my phone (chatting, facebook, cracked.com). 3g sucks where I work/live and 4g won't be here for another few years or so (as in, I'm not holding my breath). I'm not doing any downloading, I'm not even watching youtube videos. I'm doing what my phone could handle on it's own, but just with a laptop. I'm glad that the CIQ was removed off my phone. I don't like the fact that they can literally track every button push I make with a flip of the switch. That's just not right, morally or ethically.

I don't see why they are trying so hard to keep us from rooting. Do they not want us to get the maximum out of our expensive investments? Do they not want us to enjoy the phones/service as much as possible? If someone is really screwing the pooch and using wayyyy too much data, they have the power to cut them off, it even says so in the terms of agreement (?) we sign.

Pardon my language but **** them for trying to keep us from enjoying it. **** their bloatware, **** their CIQ, **** them in general. Keep us happy by leaving us alone.
[Epic 4G General] lafronz:
I bought my Epic full retail so I don't owe them a damn thing. If they try to pull that **** then they can go **** themselves. I'll flash over to boost or cricket. No skin off my back.

-uncut and uncensored from my Samsung Epic 4G
[Epic 4G General] ringold24:
Exactly what i will do! Not only that, I will use my roam control and roam the whole time til they cut me off!

Most people have no idea what rooting a phone is and of the small percent that do, theres a small percent of those people that actually tether. All sounds like greed to me!
[Epic 4G General] SubnetMask:
Didn't the supreme court rule that the phones are OURS and we can root/jailbreak/etc them if we want?
[Epic 4G General] nerdtaco:
That would be the Library of Congress, and it's only so that you may run applications that would require su. In addition, it says that you have to root it, and you're not supposed to distribute the exploit afterwards.
[Epic 4G General] DCRocks:
I worry far less about the phones being locked down, heck even the new iPhone iOS was jailbroken, and Apple has full control over everything iPhone.

My concern is much more with the service being cut off.

Guess if that happens, its back to Cricket or Boost Mobile for me as well

After all, whats the point of an Android phone that you can't root.

In their stock versions, the EVO, Epic, and Moment all SUCK compared to a stock iPhone.
[Epic 4G General] KennyG123:
The End is near! Sinners repent!

That's what that article reminded me of...nameless guy with a sign on the corner.

Lock down of service also means refunds on unusable service. Rooters know how to return to stock just before going into the Sprint store where the tech will say "must have been a service glitch" and we will get a refund for days without service.
[Epic 4G General] mattallica76:
Oh it's ON!
[Epic 4G General] testacon:
And people wonder why viruses exist...

It'll be interesting to see the fallout when people that can "code" start to angrily write exploits that doesn't unlock or root a phone anymore for the end users, but charges up a sh!t storm on your bill instead. When the carriers tell you to pay up or else, class action counter-suits form saying that, the carrier explicitly prevented you from protecting yourself by, a.) preventing you from uninstalling the virus (lack of root) or b.) flashing a more up-to-date kernel, and c.) did nothing to help since they refuse to make upgrades as fast as Google patches the Android OS that may have block the exploit in the first place.

And we thought fragmentation was bad! Because we all know that Google thoroughly checks ALL submitted apps to verify they do what is claimed and there is no history of viruses EVER in the Google market to date--rrrright?
[Epic 4G General] CapsLockKey:
You know, I could maybe understand locking out rooted users if the damn carriers supported their products more. When unpaid independent developers squash bugs in a matter of hours/days compared to a carrier/manufacturer taking 6 freaking months for an update, they can go sit on a fence. I have tethering installed on my phone, but it's rarely used. Maybe 5% of my data usage comes from tethering. It's all the other mods that really keep me rooted. I could live without the tethering (especiallly when there are apps to do wired on nonrooted anyway) before I could live without all the other tweaks and fixes we get from rooting.
[Epic 4G General] othan1:
Conspiracy theories.

We've had CIQ removed from our phones already so if Sprint was going to do something, they would have done it.

I know HTC and Motorola are locking down boot loaders but Samsung has better things to worry about because phones aren't their #1 department.

If it happens, we'll adapt; if it doesn't, you've just worried yourselves for nothing. Why worry?
[Epic 4G General] nikon120:
Your point is exactly why AT&T is locking down their devices to market only applications. Preparing for the inevitable, ha ha.

If Android phones become locked down and my service is put in jeopardy b/c of rooting, theming and fixing carrier/manufacturer OS bugs, then I'll drop Android all together.

The point of Android was for community development and the ability modify your phone the way you want it. (Without breaking your carrier's TOS.) But the TOS contracts from carriers are already getting ridiculous. Google would have a big following if they were able to introduce their own branded carrier service.
[Epic 4G General] dreamsforgotten:
The only good comparison is to the iphone and jail breaking. Jobs tried sueing his customers for it. The judges decision its when you pay that much for an electronic device that device belongs to you and not the carrier dont sweat it