yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] nicksti:
Can't anyone see the problem with these "can you do this" discussions?

1. The world consists of many types of phone users.

2. This website consists of a disproportionate technical user-base.

It would be nice from now on if a question of "what can it do?" was followed by "how do you use your phone?".

I do not know why WP7 people even bother comparing and contrasting. The OS is new and of course a 2 year old, popular, and highly customizable Android platform can do more. That is not changing now, tomorrow, or even after Mango. The gap will get incrementally smaller.

For the person that wants something smarter than a dumb phone, WP7 is a legitimate choice. For someone that wants the world, WP7 is not going to cut it.

The people in the middle can argue (and do so even more after Mango). I am thinking hard about purchasing a Trophy now. Cheapest WP7 I can get and I am sure I will love it and hope IM+ comes out soon.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
You're still being dumb, and not understanding what I'm saying.

I don't care how Microsoft syncs ****.

I do care that their services integration is weak.

Again:

1. It has nothing to do with how good their services are compared to Google.

2. It has nothing to do with which protocol they use to sync data.

3. It has everything to do with the fact that barely anything is integrated into the platform.

So you really need to READ before posting again. You're embarassing yourself...

I didn't know the technical discussion would throw you off so much. I'll dumb it down a bit in the next thread for ya, k? /wink

WP7 is barely more social than WM6.5, and definitely less social than WM6.5 with HTC Sense - nevermind the other functionality gaps... Yes, it's a bit disheartening that their services integration is so weak, and some of it has to wait over a year to arrive... It will be a travesty if Apple releases iOS 5 with revamped MobileMe adn good integration in thei rplatform before Microsoft can get WP7 patched up for Windows Live services integration on par with Google and others...

Contrary to popular belief (on this forum), a large part of the allure of Android is that it's a one-stop shop for practically everything. Google has tons of services and they're all well-integrated into the platform. It basically removes the need for a computer if you have an Android phone. That's a huge selling point for that platform, and that's partly why it's taken off so well...
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
The issue is that caching data in these apps is not as easy as on other platforms due to the way WP7 handles storage and applications (sandboxing, etc.). No, most applications do not cache data. Most twitter clients don't. And those that do, suffer with poor list scrolling performance anyways (except Microsoft's stock Apps, oddly). Birdsong, for example... Terrible list scrolling. Board Express caches, and its performance is TERRIBLE. Even then, it randomly has to recache everything...
[Windows Phone 7 General] TexUs:
Considering I'm the OP, this is my thread, not yours... You are the on that needs to read my repeated statements that I can care less, about the full integration.

Both end up syncing email, calendar, contacts... that's all I care about. I can give a flying flip- if it syncs YouTube, Google Reader, or any of the other stuff I never sign into.

For me, they are functionally the same. I am missing exactly 0 integration that I was on Android. I even gained some (locate my phone).
[Windows Phone 7 General] doministry:
True true. After one week with Android 2.3 I see WP7 gives absolutely nothing to the table besides FB stream on people.

It's amazing how many places you can share to almost any kind of file on Android. And Android also integates notifications with native FB app...
[Windows Phone 7 General] nicksti:
Let cooler heads prevail guys.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Sorry, can you elaborate on these issues? List performance isn't related to caching. Twitter apps may not cache, but I can't comment on that as I don't use them. I do use a Google Reader client that does cache data, where caching is an option, and turning it on or off doesn't affect performance at all.

Board express plain sucks, and it has little if anythng with caching.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
Can care less. You misread and totally misinterpreted my post, then you quoted pieces and pieces, took them out of context, and tried to play the semantics game, and lost.

Android has applications to locate your phone, and you can even log into latitude in a web browser to see where your phone is.

That's no great feature, and if you lose your phone and someone finds it 9/10 they will reset the phone and take the SIM card out of it anyways...

Find My Phone features have always been largely useless, unless you lose it in your or a friend's house in which case calling the damn thing is faster and works better...
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
List performance isn't due to caching. I think I went over that in another thread, if not this one. The apps don't cache, so the bad list performance has nothing to do with whether your phone has NAND or SD Card storage. The information is in RAM, not coming from a disk cache in the storage subsystem.

Also, it's not just about caching, it's about how Android pushes updates to the client without you having to waste battery/data polling the servers, and the fact that tons of Google's apps utilize push. They are also decoupled from Android in a way that they can be updated through the Android Market. If Microsoft wants to update People Hub, they will have to release a firmware OS update which has all of the negatives of any other update (AT&T users still waiting on NoDo?).

It has a lot to do with caching. Board Express randomly loses it's cache and forces a redownload of the forum lists, which takes a long time. It happens randomly. Sometimes you can open it 5 minutes later and it tells you it has to redownload everything. Sometimes it can take days or weeks before it has to do it.

That plus the crappy scrolling has much to do with the suckiness of the App. The App is not a graphical masterpiece, so it shouldn't be running so terribly even if a complete amatuer developed it. I'm willing to give the Board Express Devs the benefit of a doubt because their app isn't the only one that exhibits this type of performance. The Facebook app is also a bad performer with terrible scrolling. The Official Twitter App as well (I don't even wanna get into how sometimes you to take a ridiculous amount of times to open a link). There are others.

IRT to the "issue..." Microsoft sandboxes applications and it simply isn't as intuitive to access storage like on Android and Windows Mobile. It's harder than iOS as well. I won't say the design is bad - the benefits almost outweigh the deficits (but when you have droves of applications constantly loading form blank screens... it gets a bit terrible), but it's certainly clunky.

Bottom Line: For something billed as something that will change the way you use phones and allow you to get information so quickly, it makes the user wait way too damn much to get stuff done, or even see anything in many circumstances. The issues are prevalent across way too many apps to simply blame developers. It's a platform issue.
[Windows Phone 7 General] amtrakcn:
Yes Android does have the ability to become a computer, but only when:

1. Your phone is rooted

2. You don't have access to a computer

On Android you can flash ur kernel, configure your device all on the device itself, but I don't see the point to do this.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Necroman_AI:
I have changed from Android to WP7 and i'm loving it :D

Speed is awesome, the OS is beautiful and i'm really enjoying it on my HTC 7 Mozart!

Besides some HTC mistakes, WP7 is very usable, easy and fun to use.
[Windows Phone 7 General] doministry:
No. Android already IS almost like a computer without any rooting. It really is WM continuation without it's glitches.

In reverse to WP7 which unfortunately at this state is terribly narrowed solution.

And if you don't see the point of beeing able to configure your own device than fine for you but not for me.
[Windows Phone 7 General] stopmybeat:
Yea from iPhone 3gs to HTC desire to iPhone 4 to win7 / Omnis 7
[Windows Phone 7 General] waxfresh:
Have a DHD and won a Trophy.. I used it for about 2 weeks before i switched back to Android. I missed too many basic features!
[Windows Phone 7 General] Jim Coleman:
I think you mean "Can't care less."
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Okay then I just got confused because you commented after my comment about the "WP7 doesn't cache" statement.

That's all cool until you get into a LinkedIn application that constantly closes with errors. Or Pulse newsreader that drains battery in like four hours on DHD. There are problems with each platform.

Google navigation thingie on Nexus S doesn't let you do anything until it gets satellite fix. I couldn't even minimize it to let it do so in background because it would disable GPS and even stop trying. Asynchronous calls are trivial but somehow not all developers, even big ones, use them nicely.

Like I said, I don't use apps that don't cache data (and, as a matter of fact, Google Reader client I'm using has smooth scrolling). So I do blame the developers, at least partly. However, I do agree that at the end of the day, given how many apps have crappy performance, MS is the one to provide a solution that'll work. And I'd say that it's a problem with dev tools. They absolutely must provide libraries that can be easily used by third parties to do scrolling right, together with simpler caching and resuming from "tombstoned" state.

As regards saving to Isolated Storage, even I can get it, I don't see why that would be difficult.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Skyh123:
I switched from windows mobile 6.1 to BB to Android to WP7 and could not be happier. I am on Sprint, so I only have one option for WP7, the Arrive, but I love the responsiveness, and the better exchange integration only complaint is the multi tasking, mainly with games, I play poker and NFS and hate that I have to reload if I answer a text. Also would like diffent tones for separate email accounts, but those are things I can live with, and the battery life is awesome compared to all of the Android phones I have had
[Windows Phone 7 General] amtrakcn:
Almost all system related configuration requires rooting. Without root access you are just like using your computer with some poweruser account.

To be, Android is still with a lot of glitches. Yes, Gingerbread is a little bit better but there are even more bugs.
[Windows Phone 7 General] doministry:
Yeah but not having even 1/3 of main issues which WP7 has right now, which even has problems with updates, huge problems.

And stock Android is highly configurable without any rooting, actually what are you talking about precisely?

And what horrible bugs you're talking about?

It performs better than WP7 in almost every area. Now I can compare having both next to each other.

ATM I have no doubts anymore and WP7 is laughable OS for this moment. May be great in a year or two but not now, maybe WP8 will be spot on.
[Windows Phone 7 General] amtrakcn:
Cannot agree with you. I'm having 2 devices updated from Froyo to Gingerbread. Android itself is not satisfactory.

1. Inconsistent features (fragmentation stuff mentioned every where).

2. I met a few compatibility issue on Gingerbread which are disappointing. There are even different versions of apps even for froyo and gingerbread, this is really laughable in my point of view.

3. Removing bloatwares requires rooting. Changing framework requires rooting. Using CIFS requires rooting. Without rooting many of your customization cannot be done.

4. Talking about stock Android, I think the launcher is even not configurable.

5. Battery life still suffers. Captivate and Focus use the same Samsung G9 battery. Huge actual standby/usage time difference.

6. There are enough bugs in Android. I learned on edgadget comment that there are 7000+ open cases on Google's list, though I did not check it myself. On Froyo2.2 there is memory leaking issue (2.2.1 fixed it). On N1 and NS' 2.2.2/2.3.2 your text message might be sent to some random person. Won't know if they release with some new bug in the future. Also glitches in stock web browser was never improved on stock Android, only manufacture skins made it smoother.

There in fact are a lot of bugs and frags in Android, but the actual experience is based on personal need.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Dj21o:
I own an HTC EVO. I came from an Epic 4g and a Hero. I'm done with android. I have done the whole rooting thing (no problems), but a pain in the ass when things go wrong.

From what I have heard and seen, I will be making the switch to WP7. The OS is fairly new, but when the new phones come out, watch out Android.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
No, it means what I wrote.

I can care less. If I actually did (care less), then I wouldn't have responded :P

Look up "pun."
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
NP

I have been using LinkedIn since it was beta (not on the market) and have never experienced any crashing issues. If you think it's bad, there are alternatives. Ever heard of DroidIn.

Compare that to WP7, where the MARKETPLACE application was crashing left and right for MONTHS until they released NoDo (if you don't have NoDo, you're still getting this problem). The MARKETPLACE APP... Seriously?!

I have Pulse on my Vibrant and don't have any issues with it...

That's cool, but at least they have Navigation.

Then you should have made that crystal clear (you didn't), because the fact that you uninstall those that don't cache doesn't mean there aren't tons of apps that don't.

Also, it's almost impossible to NOT use any apps that don't cache since many of them have no alternatives.

Facebook doesn't cache, for example. What other Facebook app are you using that caches data and has the features of the Facebook App? Certainly not Seesmic... There are feature drops going from Twitter to Birdsong, but since I don't use twitter in any advanced manner that is one instance where I can deal with a bit of regression.

There is no SQL CE, SQLite, etc. in Windows Phone 7. That makes it harder for developers to gracefully save their data unless you think everyone wants to save everything in an XML or Text File (which is probably the case in some instances, and would explain why some non-NAND devices exhibit performance deficiencies running those apps). The entire platform is half-finished.

You're probably not a developer, so you are clueless on a lot of this (not meant to be a mean statement). Actually try to write an AR, VoIP, IM, etc. application on WP7 or store database data on the phone in an intelligible manner and then tell me how easy it is to "get it."
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Sure I can look for alternatives, but the way LinkedIn is integrated in WP7 is way better, simply because I don't need to even bother. Granted, the downside is that if you want to use some hypothetical LinkedOut or what not, you can't. So it all gets down to what you need.

Yeah, that was a ridiculous bug.

What can I say - good for you!

Sure, but that was just an illustration to the async calls not done right. Devs screw this up left and right, everywhere.

But I never claimed "most" or "all" apps do that. I simply said that the "WP7 doesn't cache data" statement is wrong.

Well, I certainly do not use any apps that don't cache. Well, maybe those that I use rarely - say, Parcel Tracker, but caching there wouldn't be very useful anyway, so I just didn't pay attention. Among those that I use frequently there's a Google Reader app and a weather app that both cache data. That was one of the key reasons why I chose them over the competition.

I'm 150% satisfied with the built-in People app for all my social needs. I read a lot, occasionally comment, upload a pic or two once in a while, that's it. But mostly care for Facebook and especially LinkedIn for contact data.

True, this. It's hard to make a high performance Board Express app without a database. There are database solutions, but if I were developing BE I'd probably wait for some official SQL CE access. You have a good point here.

AR, VoIP, IM aren't possible because of missing sensor and socket access. Re database - well, there's Navigon, but generally this is a true limitation. Asynchronous calls, however, are a different topic and are still hit and miss among developers worldwide. iTunes on Windows is a great (horrible) example. I can clearly see that some apps do better in this area and others not so well. But again, like I said earlier, developers are only partly to blame for this, Microsoft didn't make their life as easy as they should have. Because I know for sure that it's possible to do a well-performing third party app that would cache data and scroll smoothly I can certainly say that the OS is capable here. On the other hand, the platform is lacking because the tools available to devs don't make it easy, it requires a lot of extra work, trial and error, experimenting, testing etc., which definitely shouldn't be the case for such easy things.

Re my cluelessness - well, I'm not a developer in the sense that I don't work as a dev and never did, and never spent considerable time doing development. I used to work managing developers though, being what some call "clueless suits". And I did pull together a couple of utilities for WM at some time, one of which is still available here on xda. I also did play with WP7 dev tools, and when I say isolated storage is easy I mean it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] amtrakcn:
1. Feature differences between brands: Yes.

App compatibility issue between brands(Even with similar hardware): Yes.

I think this is enough to be a flaw. If I was not wrong, back in WM days it wasn't this widely affected among devices.

Regarding updates. Yes the carriers are still blocking the updates, but I still get NoDo from OFFICIAL source earlier than the carriers released it. My captivate? No. Wait for AT&T, or CM, or Samsung's GT-i9000 source and the reorient code.

2. Google Store filter app by device/API level, but not working well now. Actually I'm not arguing if this is technically necessary or not, but the compatibility issue come with GB is puzzling me these days. This is an existing drawback of Android. (In comparison, no app stopped working after I update from WP7 7004 to 7390, or from iOS3 to iOS4)

3. I remove bloatware not only for space, but also the potential charge and background service stuff... So I need root access to do this.

4. Launcher is pretty much an essential system componenet. If you mess the launcher up you'll need adb to fix. It's totally logic for WP7/iOS like system allow only official launchers. Also the official launcher is pretty good. You still can make your own lock screen and change the color of tile. I think this implements most of the "theme" idea on other systems.

5. Hummingbird is more power efficient than QSD8250. The former is 45nm and the latter is 65nm. On both phone I'm having both phone sync with same email accounts with push.

True WP7 don't allow u to multitask 3rd party apps, but on Android I cannot even control 3rd party app/services from draining.

What I want my phone to do, it keep up with my email and the weather. Focus does this under lock screen, and lasts for 2 days. Captivate does this too, but only lasts for 18 hrs. I did spent some time recording the CPU activity (Come on, it's a phone at first...) and found my CPU runs at 3% on Captivate for most of the time but still I cannot tell what caused this. Sometimes it just says the system thread took that amount of CPU time...

Almost everyone knows Android phones suck on battery compare to iPhone4. Same thing when comparing to WP7.

BTW, comparing HD7 with Vibrant is not a great idea. Vibrant got a larger battery while using a smaller screen.

Vibrant/Captivate vs Omnia 7/Focus should be much better. Same screen, same battery, O7/Focus even with a SoC comsuming more power.

6. I was replying to his question, so I listed some known bugs. With a system that user controls memory usage, mem leaking sucks.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
Not even gonna waste my time. You can simply uninstall rogue apps and try reading marketplace reviews in the future. Refund IS fundamental. A captivate in the hands of a user who isn't retarded gets through a day without breaking a sweat.

I have a vibrant. The battery life is above acceptable. Wp7 simply doesn't function in a manner that taxes the battery. Having a multitasking os and learning how to read reviews and uninstall apps is preferable to having be that doesn't multitask third party apps a all.

You don't need to defend wp7 with me, and the galaxy s jok is a bad one cause I have a vibrant sitting on the desk in front of me.

You're blowing the app compatibility crap out of proportion.

Fragmentation affects developers alot (they have test their apps) and users/consumers not so much...

Android has issues (see my post history), but you eem to be doing nothing but spouting off talking points. WP7 is not known for great battery life, btw...

Sent from my HD7 using Board Express
[Windows Phone 7 General] doministry:
Well for me WP7 is even more fragmented ATM when users in USA have completely different abilities compared to what I can do with the device here in Poland. Maps, Bing, Market etc.

Not to mention carriers exlusively providing Navigon NOT ACCESSIBLE to anybody else.

And of course those apps from OEMS which are not available for anyone else.

WP7 is fragmented.

Whatever you say, Android is hugely elastic and flexible OS. WP7 is not.

And I must agree with N8er.

I want to see current WP7 devices BATTERY drain providing the amount of services Android does LOL.
[Windows Phone 7 General] doministry:
Are you kidding?
[Windows Phone 7 General] ohgood:
I like how you tried to portray root access as a negative. and customization. and updates. its a fail, but you tried.
[Windows Phone 7 General] doministry:
Hahaha exactly.

We are in "danger" because the OS allows so much :D
[Windows Phone 7 General] nicksti:
1. Windows update problems are trivial compared to Android update problems. And if you are a geek/techie then Windows Phone has no update problems. And your arguments are going to be from the techie perspective.

2. Android performs better than WP7 in every area except the one an average user cares most about: UI feel. Android feels sluggish. And the solution is to throw monsterous specs inside the devices.

Android is a teenager; Windows Phone is a baby. But here is my question to all the Android users that berate Windows Phone:

What is your feeling about iOS? Better than Android? Comparable? Worse? Because that is what Windows Phone is going to be by next year as a phone. More complete in features than what we have now, controlled, but with a much better UI. The only thing left will be Apps which will be a non-issue given its rate of development.

So what is Windows Phone?

iOS in control

Android in handset choice

Windows in uniquely powerful UI

Bash it now but if you do not see what is down the road then you lack vision. Many of you will be owning a WP device next year, and make some excuse about how it was not ready back then.
[Windows Phone 7 General] orangekid:
For me iOS is on the same level of Android, I could use either one and do whatever I want and theme it however I want and do whatever I want.

Android just has more options hardware-wise so I would put it over the top.
[Windows Phone 7 General] doministry:
And I still say - it's funny what you write.

Of all the people I know having Androids - nobody is complaining and it's a lot of people.

In reverse Android can look really nice due to customization and WP7 is dull ATM.

On the positive note I just follow MIX 11 Windows Phone 7 keynote

and many things are coming. Including Skype.