2

K: I don't think it will express approval of what has been done.

D: Well, probably this is the point. Maybe it express approval.

K: I would be astonished.

D: Well, I understand.

K: I will be - when I'm back I will tell you about it.

D: Yeh, OK, thank you very much. I will mention it.

K: But you might mention the context to Brezhnev and to say that this is in the spirit of what we discussed.

D: What context?

K: The context is that they asked to deliver a message this week as soon as possible.

D: You mean from the government?

K: Yes.

D: But no context of the letter.

K: No.

D: I understand. Thank you very much. I will right away

K: But you see they proposed to deliver the message as early as they could this week and we've given them an appointment for Friday.

D: I see. But it is a message directed to the President.

K: Yes.

D: And he will be delivered in person.

K: Probably.

D: Yeh, I understand. OK, Henry. Thank you very much.

K: Bye.

TELCONE (San Clemente)

Dobrynin/Kissinger

12:10 p.m. - 7/2/73

K: Hello.

D: Hello, Henry.

K: Anatol, how are you?

D: Thank you very much.

K: Anatol, I'm calling you about the following. In the spirit of the conversation between Brezhnev and the President, the Chinese have told us they wanted to deliver a message to us this week so we have invited them to come out here to deliver it on Friday.

D: I see.

K: Which is the latest day this week we could do it.

D: I understand. Who it will be?

K: Huang Chen. The head of the Liaison Office.

D: Oh yes, I understand. I see.

K: And we just - on a confidential basis wanted you to know about this.

D: I think it good gesture.

K: We will announce it but we wanted you to know that while it will be said that we invited them the context is that they want to deliver something and I will discuss it with you next week.

D: When it will be announced?

K: Later today.

D: Today. Is it a message from ________.

K: They didn't say. It's a message from their government.

D: Oh, I see. You don't know what is the theme of it?

K: No, but I have a pretty good idea and so do you.

D: (Laugs) OK, Henry.

DELEGATES

Authority E01298
D# NAAA D19 6/2/73

2

K: I would be astonished.

D: Well, I understand.

D: What context?

K: Yes.

K: No.

K: Yes.

K: Probably.

K: Bye.

DELEGATE
Authority E01288
DATE 6/20/84
HAROLD KARADZE

TELCONE (San Clemente)

Irving Lazar/Kissinger

12:48 p.m. - 7/2/73

K: Hello.

L: Hello.

K: Irving.

L: Yes, how are you sir?

K: OK. I just wanted to ask you one question. Since after these hearings are over I'll want to make some decisions.

L: You want to make a decision?

K: I have to consider my situation. And I wondered from your knowledge of the situation, do you think that the sort of thing we were talking about is still feasible in the same range?

L: Just a little better, that's all.

K: Better?

L: Yeh, I was conservative from the beginning as I usually am in order not to be in a position of embarrassment. I can only tell you it's the same if not better - your position is the same if not better than it ever was. No question about it. I have never told you as much as I could have because you didn't want to hear it which is fine. But I can only tell you that from my analysis and also from my rather conservative and most delicate inquiry in just listening and not talking, it is my conviction that everything I told you is absolutely the case and not better.

K: Despite Watergate?

L: Oh, Watergate has nothing to do with it. If anything it enhances the potential of the enterprise many fold because of reasons I'll discuss with you when I see you.

K: Well, it makes it easier to write because one of the things I always said to you was I didn't know how to express my views.

(Con't.)

CLASSIFIED

DEPT. E.O. 1258

Dated: 6/2/94

TELCON

July 2, 1973

Mr. Kissinger - Irving Lazar

12:48 p.m. cont.

L: direction question... I will give you a direct answer and that is this: unequivocably the watergate situation makes the enterprise--enhances the enterprise for one thing--makes it far more dynamic, not that the other wouldn't have been but that as a dimension which is in addition rather than in some way a deletion or in any way removes some of the attraction.

K: I appreciate this.

L: Not ... when I think about you I think about you and in relation to your project and the possibilities and potentialities and where it could be in any way diminished and I assure you... this is not off the top of my head, I've thought about it many times... I can only tell you that, in the first place, if it does anything it enhances the project. And everything I've told you I've never pursued in accordance precisely with your directions to do more than listen and in my listening I've come to the conclusion that it was always conservative and fair and will not be embarrassed when the chips are down. Which means a lot to me.

K: Well, that I won't hold you to. I just wanted to get a rough estimate.

L: You haven't got a rough one. You've got a clear cut...

K: Right. Because some basic decisions of mine will be somewhat....

L: It is a clearcut response to what you've asked me.

K: Good, I appreciate it, Irving. It was good to see you yesterday.

L: I'm delighted always at the joy of seeing you. I'll look forward to seeing you at the Ziffren's and the only reason I never talk to you about anything....

K: No, I don't want you to.

L: If you don't want me to.... so I don't.

K: No, no, I don't want you to. And the only reason I asked you this was because I'll have to do some thinking when these hearings are over.

L: OK, that's marvelous. Of course, that may be two years.

K: No, after Ehrlichman, Mitchell and Haldeman have testified the basic facts will be out.

L: You've Straughn, Mitchell, Haldeman, Ehrlichman... and then a recap of about 5 more people... Moore. You've got about 14 or 15 people as I see it.

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K: Yeah, but the key ones you've mentioned and that should be finished by middle August.

L: Yeah, about that, but then they are going to be brought back to rebuttle... for rebuttle purposes.

K: Yeah, but that....

L: I think you are right. I think that by Sept. 1 this thing will have crystallized into what they want to do one way or another.

K: Exactly.

L: So I think that will happen. By that time Cox will have made his decision as to what he wants to do and whether there are going to be any indictments or not. It may well be that there will be less than people think.

K: I doubt that. I know Cox.

L: Well, I'm hoping that there are.

K: I've got to run, Irving.

L: This had struck the country so much, it's an upheaval. At any rate, I'll see you at the Ziffrens. I give you my direct answer and I still don't do anything which could possibly cause you any kind of necessity for explanation of any sort.

K: Exactly.

L: I know exactly and I subscribe to it. I am most zealous about it.

K: Good, I appreciate that, Irving.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority E012858

Dated NARA Dkt 6/2/04

TELCONE (San Clemente)

Laird/Kissinger

10:10 a.m. - 7/3/73

K: Hello.

L: Hi, Henry, how are you?

K: Good.

L: Getting along all right?

K: Well, you know as well as one can get along without you here.

L: Oh, I know. Well, I hope you missed me a little bit, Henry.

K: I do miss you.

L: That was a nice party Friday night. I enjoyed being with you.

K: Well, you know you made quite a hit with my Hollywood friends. I
can't let you come out there anymore.

L: I'm sure I did.

K: Listen Mel, I got - I'm getting an award tomorrow from something called the Institute of Public Service which is a new group. They're also giving an award to John Gardner and to Jablonski. It has $5,000 attached to it which I'm giving to charity. I'm not taking that. Charles Bartlett is one of the organizers and he wondered - he asked me only today whether I could designate someone to accept the award for me and I was wondering whether you would agree to do that.

L: I'd be delighted to. Where is it Henry?

K: It's in Washington on the grounds of Mt. Vernon Junior College.

L: What time?

K: In the evening, July 4th.

L: Henry, in the evening of July 4th I'll be speaking at the Congressional Medal of Honors Dinner, their annual convention down at Daytona Beach. I had that speech for a long time.

K: No, no. You can't change that and you shouldn't change that.

DELEGATES

Authority E012858
Dated N/A

6/2/73

2

L: And it's all the Congressional Medal of Honor winners from World War II and World War I and from Vietnam and I can't change that. It's the Fourth of July at Daytona Beach and I'm going down there tomorrow afternoon.

K: OK. Well, I'm sorry. In fact you were my only choice.

L: I would love to do it Henry, and I'm awfully sorry about that.

K: I wonder whom I could ask who is

L: What about Bryce - would you mind Bryce doing it?

K: No, Bryce - let me think about that. Bryce might be a good man. You know he hasn't been that closely associated with me.

L: What about Eliot?

K: Eliot could do it; that's a good idea.

L: Eliot will be here in town and Eliot was closely associated with you in many ways.¹

K: That's true. That's a good thought.

L: And you know he really has great appreciation for you.

K: That's a good thought. Which is more than one could have said about you.

L: (Laugs)

K: I wanted to get you on record saying one favorable thing. OK, Mel I'm sorry you can't do it.

L: Well, I'm sorry too, and I feel very honored that you'd ask me.

K: Well, you're a good friend and

L: But I do

K: No, no, there's no choice about it.

L: This is something that's been set up for a long time.

K: I don't know why they only asked me today because when I said I wasn't going to go there I think they got a little sore.

DECE ASSIGNED

Authority E012858

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DECLASSIFIED
Authority: E012058
By: MWAPaSF: 00304

TELCORN

Mr. Kissinger/Amb. Dobrynin

12:00 noon 7/3/73

HK: Hello, Anatol, how are you?

AD: Thank you very much, how are you?

HK: I'm fine.

AD: I see that you are very busy and I am lazy.

HK: Where are you?

AD: Right now, I am in the Embassy

HK: I see, well we are settling all problems out here.

AD: Is my impression really--it is very busy now. After Brezhnev. (laughs)

HK: No, not very. I told you about this thing yesterday and I am going to
talk to you when I get back.

AD: Yeh.

HK: You know the invitation is only in the technical sense. But Anatol what I wanted to ask you is this, some leaders of the Jewish community wanted to come out here to see me, and including one of whom who claims he talked to you at the President's dinner. Stein.

AD: I already invite him--I didn't give answer yet.

HK: No, no, my problem is I don't want--probably I will not let them come out here--I'll see them in Washington. But the thing that puzzles me is we haven't talked to them at all about the results of the summit and you remember that first conversation I had with Brezhnev --

AD: Yes.

HK: And I have never understood what happened after that.

AD: Neither do I.

HK: And you see frankly if there is anything like that that I could tell them then it would be worth seeing them and it would help with the legislation

DECLASSIFIED
Authority: E012058
By: N.M. Faiz
Date: 06/04/04

Page 2

AD: I think it would be better to delay it when you will be back here.

HK: Well, I'll certainly--I tell you now I will not see them here, because I don't want to create the impression that we are having a special meeting that requires a long trip. But you see there has been no official WH discussion with them about the summit at all, except that Joe Sisco has been running around saying profound things. And he doesn't know what the hell he is talking about. So I'm wondering A_natol' whether you could find out for me by the time I get back next week whether there is anything at all that I can say along the lines Brezhnev said to me that Sunday evening in Camp David.

AD: Okay, I check with him once more, but now he is in Moscow--I will check with him what he really has in mind and I will tell you--and for the same reason he called me and that day I give him two days to come with his wife to have lunch--

HK: That's your privilege--you can do with--

AD: No, no because you mentioned to me--that's why I'm just telling you.

HK: I think it is a good idea as a matter of fact to --it shows a spirit of conciliation. So that is not the point. The point is only that he is one of those who wants to see me and he wants to know, you know, what I can tell him. And it would of course--if what Brezhnev said that Sunday night could be repeated in some appropriate form, that would be a very significant statement.

AD: Okay--when will you be back more or less

HK: I'll be back completely on Monday--I'm completely also on Monday. No because you said when will you be back more or less, so I wanted to assure you when I'm back it will be com--I'll be completely back

AD: Now I owe you one okay?

HK: That's right--you owe me a lunch--I better fast for a few days. How about Wednesday? Hello?

AD: Just a minute--

HK: Or Thursday is perhaps even better for me.

AD: Couldn't you make on Tuesday, because on Wednesday I have a back lunch with the French Ambassador

Page 3

HK: And Thursday with the Israeli ambassador--

AD: What about Tuesday

HK: All right--I'll shift, I have something on Tuesday but I will shift it in your honor.

AD: 1:15 --all right

HK: 1:15 at the Embassy.

AD: At the embassy.

HK: Okay and I will --then we can talk about the matter we discussed yesterday.

AD: Yes. I will try to get the answer before that time--

HK: Good excellent.

AD: ...receive the telegram that was from our Brezhnev to our President about your fourth day --national day

HK: Oh, I haven't seen that yet. But I appreciate that message you sent me about this last leg of your trip.

AD: Well I hope you will tell me something too

HK: Oh yes. No, no, no--you can count on--That's understood. I think though that it is better if I do it personally, don't you

AD: Oh there is no hurry--

HK: You can absolutely count on it and you can tell them in Moscow that I will do that.

AD: --to _cement_ (?) the mutual understanding

HK: No, I think it should be the general practice

AD: And you received the ______ on this one on the last SS-9?

DECLASSIFIED
Authority: EO 12057
By: MM. D. 5-67-00340

Page 4

HK: Yes, I did. Well our people aren't happy, but I'm going to try to keep it--

AD: This is really--

HK: No, I thought it was a quick reply.

AD: I received a postscript

HK: Well let me see. I may ask you--let's discuss it on Tuesday. I may ask you to repeat it--you and I may have to discuss it further to find some formal way of stating the same thing again. Like in the standing committee.

AD: Okay

it

HK: And then we would accept/there.

AD: Oh you would like to have it there.

HK: Let me think about--it's a

AD: because if you would like the letter to go to check with me, I think it will not understand why he checked with them.

HK: Let me--Anatol let me see what our bureaucratic problem is on that.

AD: Okay--

HK: I assume the truth has been told because we would certainly find out if it wasn't.

AD: Oh I'm sure you could find out

HK: I don't see any point--and it sounds plausible to me.

AD: Yes, because I could tell you our people--couldn't tell you anything--

HK: No, I don't think the purpose of one of these buildings can remain secret for very long.

AD: By the way this seems to be very a reply from Moscow--very important otherwise--

Page 5

HK: No, no we took it very seriously and it was very much appreciated. It was very much appreciated Anatol. No I will try to keep it in this channel.

AD: Yes, I think this is the way because there could be some additional things.

HK: Let me keep it in this channel for the time being. There

AD: Or it could go to Brezhnev himself. It is no problem.

HK: There is no sense getting him involved--I'm assuming that buildings of this magnitude you can't hide the purpose of for an indefinite period of time, so I'm assuming it is the truth.

AD: And now, Henry, when my Ministers . . . . a member of the Politburo seems to become politiking (?) not only for Politburo but other views, foreign policy but other views.

HK: Well, you told me that earlier and I think that's a very important statement.

AD: It is important statement. . . . . . .

HK: Good and you will find that in Helsinki that we are moving in a constructive direction.

AD: We need you on all the points until the 30th of October.

HK: That's right. Anatol, I'll see you next Tuesday.

AD: Next Tuesday we'll eat here. Thank you very much.

HK: Good.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority: E012058
By: N. N. Patsivau, October 30, 1984

TELCORN

Mr. Kissinger/Amb. Dobrynin

12:00 noon 7/3/73

HK: I'm fine.

HK: Where are you?

HK: I see. well we are settling all problems out here.

AD: Yeh.

HK: You know the invitation is only in the technical sense. But Anatol what I wanted to ask you is this, some leaders of the Jewish community want to come out here to see me, and including one of whom who claims he talked to you at the President's dinner. Stein.

HK: No, no, my problem is I don't want--probably I will not let them come out here--I'll see them in Washington. But the thing that puzzles me is we haven't talked to them at all about the results of the summit and you rem that first conversation I had with Brezhnev --

AD: Yes.

AD: Neither do I.

CLASSIFIED

Authority: EO 12958

Dated: 6/20/73
Attn:

2

Well, I'll certainly--I tell you now I will not see them here, because I don't want to create the impression that we are having a special meeting that requires a long trip. But you see there has been no official WH discussion with them about the summit at all, except that Joe Sisco has been running around saying profound things. And he doesn't know what the hell he is talking about. So I'm wondering Anatol whether you could find out for me by the time I get back next week whether there is anything at all that I can say along the lines Brezhnev said to me that Sunday evening in Camp David.

OK: Okay, I check with him once more, but now he is in Moscow--I will check with him what he really has in mind and I will tell you--and for the same reason he called me and that day I give him two days to come with his wife to have lunch--

LK: That's your privilege--you can do with--

HK: I think it is a good idea as a matter of fact to--it shows a spirit of conciliation. So that is not the point. The point is only that he is one of those who wants to see me and he wants to know, you know, what I can tell him. And it would of course--if what Brezhnev said that Sunday night could be repeated in some appropriate form, that would be a very significant statement.

AD: Now I owe you one okay?

AD: Just a minute--

AD: Couldn't you make on Tuesday, because on Wednesday I have a lunch with the French Ambassador

DECLASSIFIED

Authority E012858

D. J. NARA Dts 6/2/04

What about Tuesday

1:15 --all right

1:15 at the Embassy.

At the embassy.

Good excellent.

...receive the telegram that was from our Brezhnev to General President about your fourth day --national day

Oh there is no hurry--

--to cement (?) the [illegible] mutual understanding

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E01298
P. # NARA Dkt. 6/2/94

DELEGATED
Authority E01298
DATE NARAD 6/2/04

Page 4

AD: This is really--

AD: I received a postscript

HK: Well let me see. I may ask you--let's discuss it on Tuesday. I may ask you to repeat it--you and I may have to discuss to form find some formal way of stating the same thing again. Like in the standing committee.

AD: Okay

it

AD: because if you would like the letter to go to check with I think it will not understand why he checked with them.

AD: Okay--

Page 5

AD: And now, Henry, when my Ministers . . . a member of the Politburo seems to become politiking (?) not only for Politburo but other views, foreign policy but other views.

HK: Good.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority EO 1298
Dated NARA Dkt 6/2/04
HHS

TELCORN

Mr. Kissinger/Len Garment

12:05 p. m. 7/3/73

HK: Hello.

LG: Henry, if that gives you a real problem, let's put it off

HK: Len, here is my suggestion, first I had had Dinitz here this morning

LG: Oh you did have him there.

HK: I had Dinitz and his view is that it would actually help him if I didn't see them out here.

LG: All right. I didn't realize that.

HK Well I didn't realize--I realized he was coming here but when I talked to you I didn't know what his view was going to be, that's why I siad I'll call you back in two hours. Secondly, I'm going to get an answer from Dobrynin ah--and on Tuesday--on what exactly Brezhnev meant with his comment and I think for both of these reasons it would be better if I didn't see them until I had had a talk with Dobrynin. And I also found out Len that that idiot Stein approaching Brezhnev directly may have riled up queered things. Or Dobrynin directly. That's what Dinitz thinks. That's neither here nor there. The major point now is tell them I will see them anytime next week after Tuesday.

LG: Or the week after that.

HK: Or the week after that is even better for me.

LG: Very good.

HK: How is everything else going? I get some rumblings out here.

LG: Do you have a good war you can send me off to?

HK: Len, I admire what you are doing, seriously. Thank you.