5

MR. DONALDSON: You think it was --

MR. LEDEEN: I think it was a mistake, but I think it's a complicated
situation.

MR. DONALDSON: When you began that first contact with Schwimmer,
Nimrodi, and others, Ghorbanifar, did you think it would end up with
selling arms to Iran? What did you think you were doing?

MR. LEDEEN: Well, what I was doing was trying to learn more about
Iran, and tried to find out what Iran's connection was to international
terrorism, and what the situation was inside Iran. There was nothing
in what I had been asked to do by the American government that involved
either arms or hostages.

MR. BRINKLEY: Mr. Ledeen, thank you. Thanks very much for coming
in.

MR. LEDEEN: My pleasure.

MR. BRINKLEY: Pleased to have you. Coming next, Senator Claiborne
Pell, Democrat, Rhode Island, Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations
Committee. And, shortly, Henry Kissinger, former Secretary of State.
In a moment.

(Announcements.)

MR. BRINKLEY: Senator Pell, thank you for coming in.

SENATOR PELL: Thank you for inviting me.

MR. BRINKLEY: Pleased to have you with us today. Now, you've
been saying that Americans in Beirut should get out. Should we add to
that, if you stay there are if you are kidnapped, do not expect us to
help you, or something to that effect?

SENATOR PELL: Yes.

MR. BRINKLEY: You're on your own?

SENATOR PELL: I think we ought to do with the situation in Libya,
where we exerted the International Emergency Powers Act, and said
exactly that: that they get out; if they stay, they're at their own
risk; and they're directed not to stay.

MR. DONALDSON: Now, how does that work?

MR. BRINKLEY: A number of them stayed nevertheless in Libya.

SENATOR PELL: That's right.

MR. BRINKLEY: They're still there now.

6

SENATOR PELL: They're still there right now. I think about half stayed.

MR. DONALDSON: How does that work, then? If a terrorist organization says, we're going to kidnap Americans, and does it, in any country, or commits terrorist acts against Americans in any country, our response should be, the Americans should flee and come home?

SENATOR PELL: Well, I think there's a question of -- judgmental question here, and if it's a situation as it is in Lebanon, where it's been repeated time and again and again, the crises have come up and the kidnappings, I think we should say, get out. As a general rule, no, don't get out.

MR. DONALDSON: Because Americans have a right to travel anywhere in the world, it's not proscribed by law in this country --

SENATOR PELL: Under our Constitution they have that right.

MR. DONALDSON: That's right, and don't we have an obligation to protect American citizens to the extent that we can?

SENATOR PELL: I believe I'm correct in saying that under the International Emergency Powers Act, that we have the actual power to withdraw that -- or put people on notice, and then theoretically withdraw that notice. Now, obviously, if in Libya, for example, some Americans are kidnapped, American children, American people, we would not ignore that fact, but we would hope that by this kind of a warning, the number who are at risk would be reduced.

MR. DONALDSON: Well, that's turning tail and running, isn't it, Senator?

SENATOR PELL: It is, in a sense, in a country like Libya. I think also we look at the conditions in Libya or Lebanon, we really should not have American citizens there.

MR. WILL: This latest episode seems to have begun with the seizure of a suspected terrorist in Germany. Do you expect the Germans to extradite him to the United States?

SENATOR PELL: I am dubious whether they will. I think when the election is over today, tomorrow, we'll find them with a slightly stiffer backbone on this. But I would still say it's about a 50-50 shot whether he's be extradited. Now whether I think he should be

7

extradited: the answer is yes. But when he is extradited, or if he is
extradited to the United States, I would not be surprised if we found
some instances of terrorism or violence here in the United States as a
consequence thereof.

MR. WILL: What is your understanding of American policy on terrorism
in January, 1987? What is it?

SENATOR PELL: Well, this is what we're trying to develop in the
hearings in the foreign relations committee. We're not going after who
did what, but we're trying to figure out why things happened and what
should our policy be.

MR. BRINKLEY: Does that mean we do not have one, as of now?

SENATOR PELL: I think we have a theoretical policy, which is, we
don't deal or negotiate --

MR. BRINKLEY: But we do.

SENATOR PELL: -- with terrorists, but we do. So it's kind of a
double policy. And I think that has to be sorted out. And for the
moment, I'd say we have basically a nonexistent policy.

MR. BRINKLEY: Well, Mr. Ledeen who was here a minute ago and is a
terrorism specialist, says we should go after these kidnappers, eco-
nomically, militarily, and in whatever ways are available to us. If we
start bombing and shooting all over the world wherever terrorists are
to be found, and they're widely spread, will the American people support
that?

SENATOR PELL: I think there'd be some hesitation on that. And I
think we should be very reluctant to engage in bombing and shooting
wherever it occurs. The important thing is to find out whose responsible.
And if we can find out whose responsible, if it's a government, I think
we ought to exert tremendous sanctions. And if it occurs again and
again, then one could use military action. If it's not a government,
if it's a group without any government connection, then you're in a
very difficult situation. And that seems to be the situation very
often. And there really is no good solution.

MR. BRINKLEY: Could we -- under what circumstances could we send
a military force into Lebanon?

SENATOR PELL: I think we would have the justification in the bar

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8

of public opinion to do it now. I don't think it would be advisable.
I'm reminded here of the -- in history, there's a war, the war of
Jenkin's Ear, which was a war of some years between Great Britain and
Spain, of one Englishman who had his ear cut off. But by engaging in
that struggle, there were far fewer instances of terrorism against
British subjects afterwards.

MR. DONALDSON: Well, Senator Pell --

MR. BRINKLEY: No more ears cut off?

SENATOR PELL: No more ears --

MR. DONALDSON: Your advice to Americans to get out of Beirut of
course is too late for the three who were captured two days ago. What
immediately should, or can, the President of the United States do to
try to retrieve these Americans safely?

SENATOR PELL: You know, there's not much that he can do. I don't
envy the President the situation he's in now. And if he can really
establish a link between these terrorists and Syria or Iran or any
other government, I think he would be justified in going after that
government pretty hard.

MR. DONALDSON: Well, there appears to be a link, at least super-
ficially, between Iran and this new group. There certainly was between
Iran and the Hezbollah, which still holds two Americans.

SENATOR PELL: In this case, I'm not sure that it's established.
When it is established, I would concur with you, there's not much we
can do. Because we've done everything we can to Iran already.

MR. DONALDSON: Well, there's a threat to kill one of these Americans
by 5:00 o'clock this afternoon if Hameidi is not turned over. If that
should happen, what then?

SENATOR PELL: I think if I was the President, there should be a
meeting of the National Security Council. It should be argued out with
the leadership in Congress. And it would give grounds, if there's
clear evidence of a connection -- and I don't think the evidence is
clear yet -- if there's clear evidence, for a military response of some
sort.

MR. DONALDSON: You would support that?

SENATOR PELL: If the link was clearly established.

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9

MR. BRINKLEY: Senator Pell, thank you. Thanks for coming.

SENATOR PELL: Very nice to be with you, and thank you.

MR. BRINKLEY: Coming next, the former Secretary of State who has remained involved in public affairs in this country and others, Henry Kissinger. In a moment.

(Announcements.)

MR. BRINKLEY: Mr. Kissinger, thank you very much for being with us today. Pleased to have you.

DR. KISSINGER: Glad to be here.

MR. BRINKLEY: As always.

DR. KISSINGER: Thank you.

MR. BRINKLEY: Now, we have lately been known to swap arms for hostages. Has that encouraged the kind of thing that happened last night, three more, four more, kidnappings?

DR. KISSINGER: Well, it certainly didn't discourage it. And it led to confusion about what our policy really was.

MR. BRINKLEY: Well, what is it, do you know? What was it? What is it?

DR. KISSINGER: Well, I think the policy as enunciated by the Secretary of State is important and correct: No negotiations for hostages; no ransom. And it is in fact the policy that the President has repeatedly announced. Then there has been this opposite policy vis-a-vis Iran, which I believe was a big mistake, and which has produced confusion. But the fundamental stated American foreign policy on hostages is correct, and should be implemented.

MR. WILL: Mr. Kissinger, you've been in the White House during crises such as this, and there's a certain dynamic takes hold, and it's already taken hold. One immediate consequence of taking these hostages is that a television show like this changes its subject, and the country begins to think and become obsessed by this. What can, and what should a President do, if he ought to do it, to stop this cycle? Is there something the President can say as he comes back from Camp David, say, and say, well, you've kidnapped a wasting asset, because we're not going to alter policy to get these people back?

DR. KISSINGER: Well, I think the most important thing that the

[L4]

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President and the Secretary of State can do in the first stage of a
crisis is to make absolutely clear the direction in which he -- in
which he wants to go, so that the bureaucracy can begin thinking of
implementing steps. I think the direction in which we ought to go is
to make -- is to make clear one, there will be no negotiation; not just
no ransom, there will be no negotiation, directly, indirectly, through
intermediaries. There just will be no communication with hostage
takers. Second, there will be retaliation if we can establish -- if we
can find who they are. And I just don't believe that this can be so
difficult, since journalists seem to be able to get into a taxi in
Beirut and find some of these headquarters. Third, that if there are
any countries involved, I the President want a plan of action now,
escalating, if necessary, to military action. And not to permit any
other approaches. Because that's the only way you can get the impression
of an implacable determination.

MR. WILL: Do you think it's in our interests to press for the
extradition of the suspected terrorist now held by the Germans, to
bring him back here?

DR. KISSINGER: Well, I can understand that this is an extraordinarily
painful thing for the Germans, especially in the light of recent events.
But somewhere along the lines -- the line, the Western countries have
to make clear that they're not going to be intimidated by a group of
semi-criminals in Beirut, and on that basis, yes, we have to -- I would
urge that we ask for the extradition, and I hope that the German government,
painful as it is, will grant the extradition, and that we then hold
firm and make clear that we will punish those who will -- who seek to
blackmail us.

MR. DONALDSON: Dr. Kissinger, knowing Washington as you do, do
you suspect that there may be some around the President today and
tomorrow and in the days ahead who reason this way: the President is
under great fire because he traded arms to the Ayatollah. Many Americans
believe, in the words of one of our leaders, that the only way the
American people wanted to trade arms to the Ayatollah was to drop them
on him from 31,000 feet. And therefore, with the kidnapping of three
more Americans, might it be a way out of his political troubles to take

LCLJ

11

military action against Iran?

DR. KISSINGER: I believe that if it -- if it can be established that Iran has a connection, and in way Iran has stated that it has a connection by saying that it would accede to the release of hostages if we game arms, then I believe that military action in the end would be appropriate. But I don't think it should be taken for domestic American political reasons. It should be taken carefully, cold bloodedly, but frankly, also inexorably.

MR. DONALDSON: Well, we have three people who were just kidnapped two days ago. That makes a total of what, eight, eight Americans at the moment held. What should the President do immediately to try to obtain their release?

DR. KISSINGER: Well, the first thing he should do is to make clear that there will be no negotiation of any kind, that we will receive no messages, that we will not communicate, that the only thing we will accept is the unconditional release of the hostages. Secondly, I think we should find out from our intelligence services what the groups are that have been involved in this and begin to take action against them. Thirdly, we should Iran and Syria that we will take measures against them, beginning with economic sanctions, but not stopping at military action. Because after all, it is not possible in Lebanon that these actions can go on with Syrian knowledge. And it is -- and by the Iranians own statements, when they offered to release hostages in return for arms, it is clear that they have some control over at least some of these groups.

MR. DONALDSON: Well, you say journalists can find some of the headquarters by simply getting in a taxicab. You also suggest that if we can identify the people in Lebanon holding our citizens, that we should take action against them. You mean we should send in the Delta Force? We should land the Marines in Lebanon?

DR. KISSINGER: Well, you see, it's awfully difficult, sitting here, to develop a detailed plan of action when there are thousands of people in the government that have the precise information, that have the availability of our resources. I believe that if the President gave instructions that he wants to take some action, it is amazing how

[LC]

12

ingenious the bureaucracy can be. But yes, to answer your question, if we have the capability, I would in some situations send in the Delta Force. And I believe that one of the tasks of counter-terrorism has to be to make the terrorists expend energies in protecting themselves rather than be able to plan actions against Western countries.

MR. BRINKLEY: Senator Pell was here, as you heard, a minute ago, and he advocates telling the Americans in Beirut that they should leave, and if they stay, they're there on their own, taking the risk themselves, and should not expect any help from us if they're kidnapped. Would you subscribe to that?

DR. KISSINGER: Well, I would make clear -- I would certainly make clear that Americans that are taken hostage cannot expect the American government to negotiate for their release. Because once you begin a negotiation, wherever they are, once you begin a negotiation, you have made it clear that there is some price you're willing to pay, and you're haggling about the price. I would not agree that we should not take countermeasures against the kidnappers, because the people who are doing the kidnapping are interested in more than just the hostages; they want to demonstrate the impotence of the United States in the area. They want to show to all the people who want to work with us that if the United States cannot even protect its own citizens, how can it be expected to protect those who are cooperating with it in the Middle East and elsewhere. So there's a fundamental issue involved here.

MR. WILL: The taking of hostages is a relatively trivial matter compared to the possible outcome of the Iran-Iraq war. You're a veteran of looking at these forces and events such as this. Is it your feeling that Iran may be capable, in the foreseeable future, of wining the way against Iraq?

DR. KISSINGER: I have the impression that Iran has adopted a strategy of attrition based on the fact that they have 3-1/2 times the population of Iraq, and that there is a very real danger that they will wear down the Iraqis. And they have stated only one fundamental war aim, which is the overthrow of the President of Iraq. Considering that no President of Iraq has ever died in bed, that seems like an attainable objective. And if they achieve this, all of the leaders in the area

[LC]

13

will get the -- will know that Iran is an implacable enemy. And therefore, a wave of fundamentalism could spread across the area. And the paradox is that in the long run, I agree with those who think we should improve our relations with Iran. But in the short run, Iran has a capacity to create an enormous political turmoil and a major economic crisis by driving up the oil prices.

MR. BRINKLEY: Mr. Kissinger, thank you very much. Thanks for being with us today. Please to have you, as always.

DR. KISSINGER: Glad to be here. Thank you.