Ambassador Dobry...n/Mr. Kissinger

3

K: I saw you on television this morning. You are getting to be quite a fellow.

D: Was I?

K: Yeah.

D: I didn't know. I sleep in the morning quietly --

K: Speaking about the denial of human rights in the Soviet Union.

D: Oh, it was yesterday on the signing of this wonderful building of yours. You will have such a building, all our businessmen will prefer to have the same building as yours in Moscow. Have you seen the design?

K: Yeah, I saw it. It looks fantastic.

D: It looks like our Foreign Minister will prefer to take it maybe afterwards. When you build it. No, I am joking. And then the second point, Gromyko would like to mention, he would like to be present for your speech. Definitely he is interested but he [won't be there] till next day.

K: I won't have much of an opportunity to prepare a good speech, I'll tell you that right now. I am even considering delivering it in German in honor of the two new members.

D: I understand.

K: I will do my best to be present at his. What time is his?

[Phone connection is broken -- conversation cut off]

1:05 p. m. - Conversation Continued

D: Hello, Henry, we were interrupted.

K: That's right.

D: Tomorrow, what time should I call you -- 9:00, 10:00 ?

K: Call me around 9:00.

D: And for this everything is already arranged.

K: Okay. What time is your Foreign Minister speaking on Tuesday?

DECLASSIFIED
Authority: E072558
BY NAR. ME 6/1/84

Ambassador Dobrynin/Mr. Kissinger

4

D: Tuesday, around 12:00.

K: Oh, that's good. That's a good time. Nothing much can happen after that.
it

D: No, no, /definitely will be before 1 o'clock because lunch time in United Nations is sacred time.

K: No, no, I will come.

D: Okay, Henry.

K: And I'll walk out dramatically or pound the desk or attract attention somehow.

D: You should be careful because now under the ____ we are very close, closer much more than the other Delegations to the ____.

K: Oh, are you?

D: Yes, definitely, so we will watch you very closely. You will be within our reach. (laughs) Not to ____ delegation which is far, far to the right.

K: (laughs) Well, somebody has to explain procedure to me too. Okay.

D: Okay, Henry, thanks a lot.

K: Bye.

wgh

TELCONE
Senator Percy/Mr. Kissinger

1:15 p.m., September 19, 1973

P: Good morning, Excellency. How are you this morning?

K: Okay. I just wanted to call you to tell you how much I appreciated
the role you played in my hearings.

P: Oh, well, no problem at all. We all did it from conviction you know.
I just got a little mad yesterday when they started coming around about
holding this as hostage and I just gave a little speech on that subject
and I think that ended it.

K: I didn't even know that but I thought during the public hearings you
really played a very objective role.

P: Well, you're awfully nice. There was a movement yesterday -- they
took the position that Muskie did, you know, what leverage do we have.
We want to get this Resolution on electronic surveillance and the only
way we can get all this business done is to hold hostage the appointment
and I just told them what I thought of that kind of a tactic and that seemed
to end it. No, everyone was with you, Henry. Even George McGovern
gave an apologetic speech about his vote and said he had called you on it.

K: Yeah.

P: I talked to Scali last night and I'm a little concerned about this. We
have now talked to Hugh and to George McGovern -- Aiken. I talked
to Bill Fulbright last night and we are going to insist on reconsideration
of this and restore those ambassadorships up there. That was done
when we were out of the room and none of us had any idea that Bill was
going to go ahead with that so I think we can square that away.

K: Oh, good. I want you to know, Chuck, that I intend really to work
very closely with you.

P: Oh, yes.

K: And that the spirit of everything I said before the Committee -- Well,
you and I have had this personal friendship anyway so you need no
reassurance from me.

P: No, anything I can do, Henry, I certainly want to. I saw Marshall
Wright last night. He said this Portugal thing, by the way, that I
started over there with the Prime Minister is starting to work out.
I told him they out to throw those bases in and give them to the
Constitution of NATO and not ask for any Aid or Agreements with us
or anything like that. I think we are working out on that pretty well.

DECLASSIFIED

Senator Percy/Mr. Kissinger

2

K: Good.

P: Incidentally, just one side-light, I commented to you and to Tom that I would like to spend 10 minutes with the President prior to the Bhutto visit --

K: Yeah, I talked to --

P: And translate that to what Mrs. Ghandi -- This thing was really handled by the Department of dir. tricks over in the White House and I am really outraged. They wouldn't even tell my secretary or any member of my staff about my request. Suddenly it's the banner headline on the front page of the *Chicago Tribune* that I had requested such a meeting and that it was being snubbed. Then they had the gall over there to then say the word of the meeting came out of my office. The *Tribune* had an exclusive and they told me it came out of the White House and was planted with them.

K: I didn't know about this. I told the President yesterday that I thought he should see you and that you had made that suggestion really as a g sign of ............

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: EC 12458

BY P. NAR. DAE 6/16/64

TELCONE

September 19, 1973/1:15 p.m.

Senator Sparkman/HAK

S: You know I've heard from people in different parts of the country who watched it on TV. Apparently that educational TV broadcast it everywhere.

K: Apparently, and I've had an amazing number of letters myself.

S: I never did see any...the last one when they had those public witnesses were there somebody told me that day that it would be on so I did watch it some that night.

K: That I didn't see at all.

S: By the way I appreciated your asking us to go up to the U.N. on Monday but I'm supposed to leave in the morning for Naibobi. I'm not certain I'm going because we've got a lot of stuff up here but I'm still working on it.

K: Well, are you going to that monetary fund meeting?

S: I'm supposed to leave in the morning.

K: Well, if you're not going, I'd love to have you in New York.

S: Well, again I'll probably be confronted with the same situation. That thing you know has just hit us and I've got a couple of conferences reports I'm trying to get through. I don't know yet what I'm going to do. I want to go to Nairobi but I may not be able to make it but thanks very much. If I could get there I'd be pleased.

K: Well, we'll work closely together.

S: Fine. Thank you.

K: Goodbye Senator

DECLASSIFIED
Authority EO 12558
By: NAR. DRE 6/84

TELCONE

Richard Goodwin/HAK

September 19, 1973/4:16 p.m.

K: Hello, Dick how are you?

G: Well, now that my former colleagues say they are going to confirm you I called you to congratulate you.

K: Thank you. I appreciate it.

G: I'm very glad. I hope it goes well.

K: I think I can do the things I would like to do. If you don't watch yourself I'll ask for your help as a speech writer.

G: I'll have to be very careful on that. I avoid that at all costs. I'm just completed my book so...

K: Have you.

G: Yeah, the New Yorker will be out with a bunch of it October or November and then it will be out in February.

K: You told me once. What is the subject?

G: It's called the *American condition*." It's a very abstract, analytical essay.

K: I'd love to see it.

G: It's nothing to do with history, anectodes and very little to do with contemporary illustrations. You're not even mentioned in it. Nor is your boss because it's a very different kind of book. Very theoretical work and actually one thing you said when we were down there very much in line with... bureaucratic mind all over the world and not in the government itself but in general.

K: Well, when are you coming down?

G: I don't know but I just wanted to tell you that when I do come down ... I have a lot of ideas about Latin America.

K: I'd love to see you and a that's one of the areas I'd like to talk to you about.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12958

BY NAR. Die 6/16/64

G: No one has listened to them for many years but I did do a long piece on Peru which maybe someone might dig up for you. It's very opposite with present events called "Letter from Peru, on the Seizure of the Standard Oil Company there and the consequent military coup. I was down there for three or four weeks working on it. I know all those people. In fact I was the only American then invited to the inauguration of the ______ because of the article as a matter of fact which was reprinted all over Peru which didn't pay me one cent. But I got a lot of nice letters.

K: No, I'd love to see you. Will you let me know. Give me a few days warning.

G: Of course I will

K: And I may really, when I think I have something to say worthy of you, ask your advice. You know, I'll understand if you turn it down. You know not to write it but just to consult with me in it.

G: Yeah, I'd be glad to talk to you....1965 of Latin American policy. I was involved in it deeply but the downhill road which began in 1965 concerned terms of economic consequences both having potential market with the U.S. and of course supply and also some sense of ... The military might end up on our side which historically is going to...Guatamala who is Chief of Staff of the Armed Forces of a...

K: No, I think the logical route for military to take is...

G: I've been to some of the military schools. In Latin America of course the countries are very different so you have to generalize but once you get down to reaching the old generals and what they'er teaching at their military schools is...... economics, and they're eating it up. I talked to a lot of them and even the ones most friendly to us view their friendship as one of expediency at the moment and that is the most logical route for them because obviously Soviets are never going to invest in countries over which we have such influence whether we have it or don't. It's just too much money to put into places where they think we can overturn things overnight. But on the other hand they are long term gains, economically and elsewhere. Not Europe but it's...in the oil problem alone Allende undoubtedly his resources under...

K: Well, look when you know you're coming down let me know.

G: Ok. Good luck Henry.

TELCON
David Abshire/HAK

September 19, 1973/4:25 p.m.

A: You passed my favorite Committee.

K: Look, Bill Scott of Virginia declares Spang persona non grata which takes care of that.

A: What a shame. A very small man that they would put him in a magnanimous position with his constituents but...

K: Well, you know I had pretty well decided to go ahead with it then Harlow told me I had to check with Scott as a courtesy and he said He'd object to it.

A: Bryce talked directly to Scott?

K: Yeah.

A: I suppose there is no chance of getting conservative like Barry Goldwater to John Tower to go to him.

K: I think he's more concerned about his own situation. Or what he conceives to be his own situation. You mean to talk to Bill Scott? Well he said he'd be personally objectionable to him.

A: I think a fellow conservative such as Goldwater or Tower might be able to put it in terms that Scott would buy. I think there might be a chance of that. I'm not saying a probability because Scott is not a broad minded individual but when I talked with Hugh Scott he felt, I passed this on to John Lehman when he called, that really the best approach would have been for, first he said Goldwater and then he said Tower, to go to Bill Scott. That if the W.H. did it first it moght set him off a bit.

K: Well, that wasn't communicated to me. Well, I can still try that but supposing that doesnt work what would you recommend? Somebody recommended the staff man at the House Committee.

A: Bromakee(?) is a good man Henry. He...I think that last autum that Zonakee was inclined to take it. This was one of the names that came up and those people that are in key positions up there fear that if they step out that they can't get back in which is probably true. The other thing about Marion Zonakee is that in your effort to will he get closer to the Senate. It doesn't begin to serve that purpose like this other idea. Let me think about it overnight.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12/58

BY R.NAR. DUE 6/16/64

K: Well let me ask you somebody else that has occurred to me who has no Congressional experience that I know of. How about Strussel, do you know him?

A: Walt?

K: I only think of him because I'd like to move him out of his spot.

A: I like Walt. I don't think he would be the person for the Hill. I don't think he's got the personality for it. I like him, I think he's got a high degree of competence but not for the hill. I would think there are better places to move him to than that.

K: Marshall Green.

A: Marshall Green would be excellent.

K: But he wouldn't be loyal would he?

A: If Marshall were working directly for you, he would in my judgment. Marshall gets along very well on the Hill and the guy that is in that position is very much in touch with you. He's very much under your direction, daily guidance on everything he's going to do if he's got any kind of confidence but...

K: Do you want to give it some thought? I think they'll be too much backfire here in the White House if I bring Marshall Green back into town. They wanted to get him out of town.

A: Let me give it some thought Henry...

K: I know I've got to get rid of Marshall Wright. He just isn't doing it.

A: Well, that's unfortunate, Marshall was a damn good Deputy on his own it hasn't worked out too well. I hope a good position can be worked out for Marshall but Henry let me remind you and maybe you really don't know the circumstance under which Marshall got that position. After we had looked at political candidates and didn't find one some of the political candidates at the W.H. suggested were inappropriate entirely and I made the point to Secretary Rogers rather than have Marshall Wright act of 9 months put him in the position and put him in the position with the understanding that when the appointee is found that he will move on. So that was really the basis that he came in and it was simply a matter of upgrading his position during this interum period. Well, let me think about it Henry. I'll give it some thought and get back to you tomorrow and sometime at your convenience I've got some other thoughts for you unless pressing subjects but I'd like to come over for a visit.

DECLARED
AUTHORITY EC 12958
BY ROBERT NARAN D. E. 6/10/64

K: Well, I'm anxious to do that. In fact I'm anxious to discuss some personnel with you. Are you here this weekend.

A: Yes, I'd be happy to come over Saturday or Sunday.

K: Let's aim for either Saturday or Sunday. Depends on how my U.N. speech goes.

A: I'd be happy too.

K: Good. On that Congressional thing I'd like to get my mind cleared.

A: Let me give it some real thought overnight. Not just in terms of Marshall Green but in terms of other possibilities.

K: Like Marshall Green, it's the foreign service office who has the Hill ____. But I'd prefer somebody who already knows the Hill. Bryce Harlow suggests Ken Ballou.

A: Well, I guess if Bryce suggested that Ken wants him.

K: Yeah, but that doesn't mean I want it.

A: I know. But my first question would have been does Ken really want to go into another position like that but obviously he does.

K: He isn't very bright if the truth be known.

A: Ken is pretty good with a lot of those Senators. I think it's too bad you don't have someone there to simulate what we're trying to do however.

K: Yeah, you know Korologos wants it to but I just can't see him.

A: I'd get a little new blood in.

K: Well, that's what I'd like.

A: Tom's effective in a lot of ways but I think you need an appointment here that is going to symbolize something to.

K: Now, on Zonakee it occurred to me that before I can even approach him, of course, I have to talk to Doc Morgan, but before I approach Doc Morgan I was wondering whether you could find out whether he'd even want to be considered. You know on your own saying you've been asked to give names but you don't want to give any names you know are not even going to be willing to talk.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority E0 2658

By: J. D. NAR, Lr. 6/9/84

A: Well, I could do that. Marion is a very competent and able guy.

K: Well considering all the foreign ...

A: I don't think in this thing you should point to its Chairman. If you know somebody that just pleases the Chairman you may be hurt with the rest of the Committee. The point is on Marion having been with the House Committee, that is not the ideal thing with that Senate Committee.

K: That's what I think. That's why I'm hesitant.

A: He's a good man. He's not ideal for your needs.

K: Well think of an ideal man overnight.

A: I'll work on it Henry. I won't sleep. I'll think about and I'll be in touch tomorrow and then I'd like to come over at your convenience over the weekend. I'll be in touch with your secretary about an appointment Saturday or Sunday. Good Henry. Bye.

DECLASSIFIED

TELCONE

September 19, 1973/7:06 p. m.

George Shultz/HAK

S: this course of action to the Congress. We will work to get it accomplished. We can't guarantee that the Congress will pass it but anyway we'll be in that stance and we'll make it as positive a statement as we can without being non physical. We'll have lots of Senators and Congressmen there of course.

K: Now McNamara called me and said it has normally been done in the form of an Executive Agreement.

S: Well, we cannot sign up beyond anything saying what we will recommend to Congress because we don't want to be in the position at some subsequent period of saying we've reneged on an agreement which was the way we got maneuvered before and the Congress is very alert to that and they're not about to get themselves maneuvered in that position again.

K: No, that isn't the way they'd get maneuvered but are you saying that in the future the Executive Branch will never sign an agreement requiring Congressional action for implementation.

S: No, just that when you sign an agreement under this circumstance it is an agreement...the way we try to get it structured is, an agreement to go to our respective legislatures.

K: That is fine. That will be good.

S: Now I think it would be better if we don't have a formal resolution. McNamara will probably want one and if he wants one we should be willing to go along with it.

K: Good. No that is fine.

S: You have to cover me with the President on this.

K: I've already talked to him.

S: I believe this is consistent with what he and I discussed.

K: I have already talked to him...

than and I

S: He wants to be a little less forthcoming than you/have worked out here but I will quote his letter. Now second, I got a great idea for you. This came to me in a flash.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E.O. 1258
By: J.P. NAR. Date: 6/16/64

K: What is that, resign?

S: You need an Ambassador for Russia right? You need somebody of high standing and elder statesman maybe.

K: If you can recommend who've I've already picked I'll kill you.

S: No, its... is somebody already picked.

K: I've got somebody that the President approved this afternoon but tell me whom you mean.

S: Joe Block. Do you know Joe Block.

K: No.

S: He's in his late 60's I guess.

K: Is he the former World Bank guy.

S: He was Chairman of the Inland Steel Co. He's a wonderful person, on the ball.

K: Oh, I know. I was thinking of somebody else. Frankly I was thinking of Sherman Cooper for Senatorial reasons but how about Japan for Block.

S: He'd be good for that too.

K: Or Bonn.

S: Well, now he's Jewish which I think would be... a nice twist in the S. U.

K: But I don't know whether we ought to rap that in.

S: Anyway he's a person of recognized public stature. He was a member of Kennedy's Labor Management Committee. I knew him quite well and I know that he's a man of great ability.

K: No, I know. Isn't he a Kennedy supporter.

S: He was a Kennedy, I don't know whether he is a Teddy Kennedy supporter but he was a supporter.

- 2 -

DECLASSIFIED
Authority: EOU 12/85-
BY ORDER OF THE PRESIDENT, D.C.C.C. 6/16/84

Telcon
Bryce Harlow/HAK

9:30 a.m.

September 20, 1973

K: Hello.

H: Yes, Lord.

K: Yes, Mr....

H: How are you?

K: OK.

H: Outstanding.

of
K: Well, come to the point. Don't waste the time with a busy man.

H: Oh, yes, I just want to know if you've talked to Dave about Zanecki.

K: Yes, he does not think it's such a good idea, because he thinks...

H: From their point of view?

K: He thinks because of the Senate point of view that it wouldn't be a good introduction.

H: He's afraid that the Senators won't like picking a House man.

K: That's right. Well, I don't know whether you agree with that.

H: Well, I wondered a little bit about that, too.

K: But he will feel him out, anyway.

H: Just like the House man would not have liked too much Stan Hewitt.

K: Well, he thinks it would be better not to take any staff man.

H: Yeah, I understand, which is generally, basically, a sound rule, unless it's a staff man of the kind of responsibilities that Stan has had. OK, so that doesn't look too promising probably.

K: No. He said he'd give it some thought and call me today.

H: Uh, huh. I talked to Dick Cook, who knew him very well. He's extremely high on him.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E.U. 12/25/88

BY: R.NAR. Die 6/10/84

-2-

K: On Zonecki.

H: Yeah. He says he is one of the top staff men he's ever seen at the Capitol. Apparently, competence-wise he's all right, but I think you do have the problem that, the central problem is that Congress fears the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

K: Yeah.

H: And then, I guess that needs to be very closely a governing consideration. He is almost a Senate specialist and would take the House more or less for granted, but would work as well with them as you can, having to concentrate on the Senate, I guess. And that leads you to a Senate specialist, which leads you, in effect, to a guy like BeLieu, a guy like Korologos - who's a specialist. But you don't want either one of them much.

K: No, I might change my mind.

H: Well, you might be driven to by this difficulty. OK, we'll wait briefly on Dave, huh?

K: Right. And any suggestions he might have.

H: Does he have other thoughts?

K: No. But he said he'd call me today if he has any. He thought that we could still get Spong if we ask Tower to call Scott.

H: Well, I'd be willing to bet on that.

K: Well, and I don't think we should in any case start lobbying and get knocked off again.

he said,

H: But, I don't really have a serious problem with Spong, you understand, Bryce. He said that ironically. He said, after all, all he said was that I was a nobody and stupid, and he said I really therefore don't have any reason to be sensitive to his appointment.

K: Yeah.

He said,

H: /You can see the effect of that in Virginia.

K: Yeah, well, I think we then have to go ahead and look for an alternative.

H: They think John Tower is for it, I take it.

K: Yeah.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EO 7258

By Top Officer, 6/6/64

-3-

H: I don't think John can persuade him on that.

K: Well, I don't think I should do it.

H: I think you'd better brave your conservative buddies.

K: Well, Ok, I don't think you should do it. I don't think the White House should start bringing pressure on Bill Scott for this, do you?

H: Well, I don't like it much from that point of view. It seems to me like it starts you off with a pretty serious abrasion.

K: Yeah.

H: If it can be avoided, and we'll try to avoid it.

K: OK, good. Many thanks, Bryce.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12158

By JG SAR. Dte 6/16/64

Telcon
Senator Ted Kennedy/HAK

Sept. 20, 1973; 9:40 a.m.

K: Hello, Ted, they didn't have to get you out of a meeting.

TK: Oh, that's all right. I was just waiting here to get one started anyway.

K: I was wondering whether it would be an inconvenience to you if you came by here, because I've got so many meetings all day.

TK: Right.

K: Can you do that?

TK: I'm pretty sure I can. Why don't we plan...

K: About 5:00 o'clock?

TK: That will be fine. And if it begins to get tight, then what we'll do is see if we can get it next week. I think we're in good shape on it though, so why don't we count on 5 o'clock, and then I'll give you a ring at 2:30 or 3:00 if it's not possible.

K: Good, and then perhaps I can break away, if necessary, and meet you someplace.

TK: Good, good.

K: Look forward to it.

TK: Thanks, Henry.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E.C. 12/25/88

By: E.P. NAR. Page 6/16/84

Telcon
Senator Stuart Symington/HAK

Sept. 20, 1973; 9:44 a.m.

S: Good morning, Henry.

K: Hello, Stuart. How are you?

S: You, old fellow.

K: I wanted to call you to tell you that there was really no vote on the Committee that meant more to me than yours.

S: Oh, bless your heart.

K: And to tell you how much I thought of the dignity and seriousness with which you conducted your part of the hearings.

S: Well, that's very nice of you. As you know, we're being criticized by some of the liberal magazines for not being rough enough to suit them, and by others for being too rough, although I don't remember but one of two for that. But what I thought was important was to have the questions asked that people were talking about, you know?

K: That's right.

S: And sometime, I was thinking, after you are confirmed, which you will be -- there'll be very few votes against you -- I would hope that we could sit down for an hour and kick some things around. I've been around this town now for 58 years...

K: I would like that very much, Stuart.

S: ...one percent of what I thought you agreed with, it would only be an effort to be constructive, because right now, as I see it, you gotta win. If you don't win, we go down another notch and we're in awful deep trouble, as you mentioned one night some weeks ago out at Joan and Tom Bradens. And I couldn't agree more.

S: Well, I remember that and, actually, that turned out to be a rather important meeting from my own thinking. And I want you to know that the spirit of that - you said I'll try to conduct myself in that spirit. And above all I'd like to have an early chance to sit down with you.

S: Well, I'm a bachelor and any time that you're free after you get yourself straightened away, why, I'd appreciate a little visit.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EO 12558
By NAR. Date 9/1/94

-2-

K: Good. I'll spend part of my time in New York in the first two weeks, but right after that lets...

S: Well, no hurry.

K: Well, we should do it fairly soon so that we both know where we're going.

S: Things are moving around down here in very restless fashion. While I have you on the phone, I think that the Trident thing, the way it's being shoved, is the greatest single mistake that I've seen since I've been around, because why do we have to rush it this way, you know?

K: Yeah, I didn't realize...

S: Yeah, it's got everybody mad, and the lobbying - I've never seen anything like it.

K: Really?

S: Never, since I've been here, and it's Rickover primarily, supported by the Navy, and it's only two years that they get on one ship, they'll be - as an industrialist - they'll be building 10 before they complete one. And I notice, one sheet says since Congress reconvened earlier this month admirals have become as familiar in the corridors of the Senate Office Building as Senate pages. Admiral Zimwalt, the Chief of Naval Operations and Vice Admiral Rickover have been leading the shoe leather brigade. The admirals have been talking to their usual allies and they've even been visiting Senate doves trying without apparent success to convince them of the wisdom of speeding up Trident. So desperate has the Navy become that Zumwalt charged as follows. Quote. Soviet agents quote were on Capitol Hill lobbying against the new submarine. Well, it's leaving a very bad taste in everybody's mouth because it totally violates Laird's premise of fly before you buy, and any industrialist, like myself, knows that working on 10 submarines before you finish one just doesn't make any sense. We've given them 642 million dollars to go ahead with a normal program, and they accelerated for two years, and I'm not telling you anything I haven't said to Scoop.

K: Yeah.

S: And we passed it this year, the one committee that studied it recommended unanimously against it. And then the full committee recommended against it. Then they worked on Barry Goldwater and got him to change. I know you're busy but it's this type and character situation that's

DECLANIFIED
Authority: EO 7458
By: SAR, Dec 6/16/64

-2-

S: Well, no hurry.

K: Yeah, I didn't realize...

K: Really?

K: Yeah.

TELCONE

Ron Ziegler/Mr. Kissinger

10:00 a.m., September 20, 1973

Z: Mr. Secretary.

K: Not yet.

Z: Mr. Secretary.

K: Not Yet!

Z: Mr. Secretary-Designate.

K: Designate, that's my boy.

Z: This is Ron Ziegler, Sir. I must start treating you with more respect.

K: Well, I'm amazed -- What have you got, Diane there? You showing off?

Z: No, Jerry's here. I'm showing off to him. (laughs)

K: Yeah.

Z: How are you going to handle this Japanese thing?

K: What Japanese thing?

Z: Oh, the Japanese press ran a story today that based on a White House source, of all things, that the President may visit Japan in October-November.

K: Say there are no such plans right now.

Z: Yeah. And that's what you are going to say?

K: Yeah. You know, they have proposed end of November, just for your guidance, and we haven't turned it down yet. And again, for your guidance, we are thinking of it seriously. There is no agreement whatsoever. If we announce it, it won't be until the end of October so you are perfectly safe in saying there is no such plan right now.

Z: There is no plan for foreign travel and there is no such plan to go to Japan at this time.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: EOU 12/25/8

By: R.J. MAR. 6/16/84

Ron Ziegler/Mr. Kissinger

2

K: At this time. Don't say no plan for foreign travel, that will panic the Europeans. Call attention to the Communique, which says the President has agreed to visit there before the end of 74 and there has been no progress in the planning since then. That is true.

Z: All right. Okay. I'm still moving "uncertain" on Europe, do you want me to continue to do that?

K: Absolutely.

Z: Will you know better today?

K: No. Again, for your own guidance, we are highly unlikely to go there but I don't want the Europeans to know this for another two weeks.

Z: Right. Well, I'll just keep with the "it's uncertain". Okay?

K: Right.

Z: Good, Henry.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E.O. 1245.8

By: [Signature]

Date: 6/16/64

TELCON

Ambassador Dobrynin (from New York)

Mr. Kissinger

10:02 a.m., September 20, 1973

K: Hello.

D: Hello, Henry. Good morning.

K: How are you, Anatol?

D: Thank you very much. What's your decision about the participants?

K: About the participants, oh Jesus, I have really not had the time.
Well, I won't have Scali there, that's for sure.

D: Yeah. Will you have one or two?

K: Well, why don't you tell me what you prefer. Let's say two on each --

D: Two will be better.

K: The smaller, the better.

D: Yeah.

K: I've got to have our Assistant Secretary there. And then I've got to
have somebody there to take notes.

D: Oh, you will have another one too.

K: You will have ________.

D: And you will have your own man. You will have three altogether and
we will have three altogether.

K: Three, including me or -- The best would be 4 on each side.

D: Four on each side.

K: Right. That means I'd have Stoessel, Sonnenfeldt, and a notetaker
because it's beneath Sonnenfeldt's dignity to take notes.

D: (laughs) Well, we have to find somebody else too as a member of
Delegation.

K: Oh, you do? You don't want to act by majority vote for or against it?

DECLASSIFIED
Authority: E012058
By: MW Deakin

DECLASSIFIED
Authority: E012058
By: N.M. Pata De
Date: 06/30/84

2

*

D: This is exactly what we don't want, that you will have a majority vote. Exactly, you are right.

K: But you could say that Gromyko counts for two being a member of the Politburo.

D: Well, but now you are really in the position of Secretary of State so it's now on an equal basis. Before, we could do it but now --

K: Before, I was superior.

D: (laughs)

K: Until he joined the Politburo.

D: Well, you do not need, Henry, your good friend, Sonnenfeldt, in this case.

K: Maybe Stoessel will take notes. Let's leave it three and three for the time being.

D: I think it will be better because some of you will take notes and we will do the same.

K: Yeah. Now the only thing, Antaol, is Stoessel doesn't know about these SALT exchanges.

D: Well, then it's up to you to handle this issue.

K: Okay, I'll handle it. He doesn't know SALT well enough anyway.

D: Yeah. So we will aim at three.

K: We'll aim at three. And then when we come here, we will have what?

D: From our place, it will be two, but including ______ in our case.

K: Well, I may just take somebody to take notes.

D: Couldn't Stoessel make it or --

K: Well, let's see.

D: Of course if you want to bring your man to make notes, it will be no problem I am sure.

K: It's really a technical thing and if we both --

D: There is no problem really.

K: If we take votes, we won't let him vote.

D: (laughs) No, technical, I am sure there will be no problem on this one. So let's aim at three as you mention. As it now stands, it will be Stoessel and you?

K: Stoessel and me for the time being and I might have to take Sonnenfeldt.

D: Okay.

K: Now, Anatol, just to give you an advance warning, I will propose that you dismantle the SS-9s at the UN speech but you don't have to agree by the next day. It won't be considered unfriendly.

D: What . . . .

- MORE -

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EO 12952
By: N.W. St. Germain

TELCONE

Dobrynin/Kissinger (Contd)

K: We wanted to get the SS 11's too.

D: (Laugs)

K: We compromise--some people said ask for all missiles and some people said for no missiles, so I said we'll ask for the SS9--and I'll have a few charts there to show them--I just want you to know that I don't expect Gromyko to accept it by the next day--

D: No, he will have the next two days to think it over--

K: No, it will be friendly speech. Seriously, there will be no challenge.

D: we'll be accused of being -- friends of yours-- from Far East

K: I read that you are having a reconciliation with them

D: You do?

K: That's what I read in the newspapers--cause I don't want any great power condominiums now directed against us.

D: It is up to you to see if they are reliable or not but impression is they are not specifically reliable in this particular case too.

K: I have trouble enough worrying about our foreign policy without worrying about your relations with the Chinese.

D: Okay Henry

K: So Anatol I'll see you--

D: ON your arrival next week--

K: Have you told your Senators to vote for me?

D: Of course, they would give a single vote--that they wouldn't disagree personally but just as a matter of gesture--otherwise I'll ~~agree~~ that even the Senate committee thought it was being too kind to you.

K: I know, I know. Just wanted to make sure your votes--your people got instructed to vote tomorrow too--

D: When are they going to vote--tomorrow?

5

K: Percy thinks he is a personal friend of yours.

D: Percy -- he's looking for ---- in thenext administration.

E: Because he helped me break the deadlock on the SALT talks if you remember

D: Yes, yes. Otherwise the other day I was surprised at one of the ______ which was completely social, he told the story--remember who broke all those things--

K: Yeh I knew you were a skillful operator but I didn't know that part of it.

D: Right, well sometimes even your ______ doesn't know whether you are playing ______ or not.

K: Okay Anatol, give my very warm regards to the foreign minister and tell him to be kind to me in front of Stoessel--he isn't used to the way you beat me up all the time.

D: All right, you may be assured on this (laughing)

K: All right, bye.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority: E012058
By: MW Arap Dge: 06/03/04

TELCOM

Mr. Kissinger

K: Hello.

K: How are you, Anatol?

D: Two will be better.

K: The smaller, the better.

D: Yeah.

K: You will have ________.

D: Four on each side.

DECLANDED
AUTHORITY EC 12658

BY RONAR, DEC 6/16/84

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EO 7258

2

K: Before, I was superior.

D: (laughs)

K: Well, let's see.

3

D: (laughs) No, technical, I am sure there will be no problem on this one. So let's aim at three as you mention. As it now stands, it will be Stossel and you?

K: Stossel and me for the time being and I might have to take Bonnemöldt.

D: Okay.

D: What . . . . .

- MORE -

TELCON

Debrynin/Kissinger (Contd)

D: (Laughs)

D: You do?

D: It is up to you to see if they are reliable or not but impression is they are non-specifically reliable in this particular case too.

D: Okay, Henry

K: So Anatol I'll see you--

H: ON your arrival next week--

D: Of course, they would give a single vote--that they wouldn't disagree personally but just as a matter of gesture--otherwise I'll assume that even the Senate committee thought it was being too kind to you.

K: I know, I know. Just wanted to make sure your votes--your people get instructed to vote tomorrow too--

TELCORN

AG Richardson/Mr. Kissinger

10:10 a.m. 9/20/73

K: Elliot how are you?

R: Fine, how are you?

K: Fine. Elliot I have the transcript of my executive session here which the committee has asked me to return today. And it isn't really your responsibility, but I was wondering whether you would mind sending somebody over here who would look at it for a couple of hours to make sure that I'm not going beyond the bounds of what I should have and also in the case of people like Young, whether I'm raising questions with respect to their indictment

R: Yeh, okay. When do they have to have it back?

K: By the end of the day, and I would like to go over it myself.

R: Yeh, the only people I've got who can really come and do this--Ruckels-house and JT Smith. And they are all snarled up in the VP's

K: Yeh, well I could get Buzhardt but frankly my confidence in you people--

R: You have just the one copy--

K: I have only one edited copy--

R: Yeh and you shouldn't really make another one

K: R: Well I'll see if I can--I'll try to get--it could be anytime today, couldn't it.

K: It could, yes. As long as I can get it back to them by 5:00

R: I'll try to get JT to do this sometime during the day--who should he get in touch with about

K: General Scowcroft

R: Okay

K: Many thanks Elliot and I enjoyed breakfast the other day

R: I did too--I hope we can do it again

K: We should do it regularly

R: I'd like to.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12458
By JONATHAN M. DeM 9/20/73

TELCORN

Senator Scott/Mr. Kissinger

10:14 a.m.

9/20/73

S: Hi Henry

K: How are you

S: Fine, Henry

K: Hugh I just wanted to thank you for the way you helped during these
hearings--you did it in your usual and understated way, but I was very
much aware of what you were doing.

S: Well the main thing it helped worked. I'm delighted it came through with
so little genuine opposition.

K: You know, I hope to work closely with you

S: Yes, and I want you to and obviously we'll do all we can to be helpful.

K: I talked to the President yesterday about--I mean this is just for your
information--shouldn't use it yet-- about Jack Heinz and we are going
to make a major effort to find a very senior embassy for him.

S: That would be great--

K: But don't tell him yet--when we have one, I will let you know first

S: I would appreciate that. Let's see. Anything said to him now will simply lead
to my losing some time with more visits-- and I can't afford the time

K: But as soon as we have one to offer him--I'll let you know before I approach
him so that you can then get into the act.

S: Great, it will be greatly appreciated and I saw Sonnenfeldt at the Netherlands
embassy the other night--and told him what had happened in foreign relation
--I think we'll get that back on the track.

K: His nomination?

S: It isn't-- I just happened to see him--not his nomination, that isn't in our
committee--I told him of this by-play that went on when the committee
asked when most of us had left--three members were remaining--no
quorum by a vote of 2 to 1 with Griffin protesting, sent a names of Pat
Bennett and two others, without the rank of ambassador

DECLASSIFIED

Page 2

K: Oh

S: So night before last I talked to McGee about it who was very upset and Mansfield wasn't --he agreed with it--the process and then I talked to Humphrey and Griffin, so McGee Humphrey Griffin and I got our heads together and I made a little speech about it yesterday as being improper under the rules and we then persuaded Mansfield to talk to Fulbright and we persuaded--didn't have to persuade Talmadge--Bennett is his constituent--Talmadge was fairly outraged at the whole process--we then got the ____ to be prepared to rule-- this is a very significant ____ in the future. That's why I'm taking your time. That a committee has no right to alter the title or designation or job description or whatever you call it, of a nominee--they can even reject Jack Bennett for Security Council or the other three, or they can report them favorably--they cannot promote or demote a person from this status even to personal rank of ambassador, so armed with that punitive ruling, what's going to happen, I think is to save everybody's face, that Fulbright is going to pull it back and we'll have another meeting and we've quietly amassed 10 votes--possibly 11, I talked to Javits.

K: Marvelous. That's very good.

S: So I don't think it will take long for the Chairman to realize, he doesn't have a majority.

K: That will be very helpful.

S: The --It's important for the future--we couldn't let it be amended on the floor--that would admit the right of the committee to take the action.

K: That is--a very helpful ruling. Hugh one other thing as longas I've got you on the phone. I'm planning to give a dinner on October 4 in NY for all the visiting delegations--foreign ministers and so forth at the Metropolitan Museum of Art--and I am going to ask Fulbright and Aiken and I thought I'd ask you and Mansfield as Minority and Majority leaders, and If you could come to that, and Mrs. Scott that'd be very nice.

S: I will come if I can--really don't know what Oct 4 says on the diary, but certainly if I'm free--I'll come.

K: That'd be very nice. Many thanks.

S: Good luck to you.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12/95/8
By MAR 19 95 10/16/95

TELCON
Senator Church/Mr. Kissinger

10:23 a.m.

9/20/73

K: Frank, I just wanted to call you to tell you two things--one how much your vote meant to me personally and secondly to reaffirm what I said to the committee during the sessions of my really strong desire to establish a new relationship with the committee--and of course with you personally whom I've known for many years.

C: It's awfully nice of you to do that Henry, I was glad to give you my vote--you knew that and I look forward to working with you.

K: I know you must--it couldn't have been easy in the totally context of the pressures in this country right now.

C: You were the most deserving man to be nominated as any I know and I'm sure you are going to make a great secretary. And if we can reestablish an effective working relationship between the State Dept and the Committee, I think it would serve the country--

K: I feel very strongly--and anything I can do I will do, and if you have any suggestions on how we might do it effectively, I'd be eager to hear from them.

C: Thank you Henry. I will take that as an opening wedge and I wish that---I will follow them up. There's one thing that's been weighing heavily on my mind and that's the question of political asylum for these large numbers of people that have been taken into custody in Chile and it occurs to me--two things, first I understand there are or may be some American citizens among them and I assume the State Dept is pursuing it at the moment, the other thing is that the OAS as I recall has a council or commission that deals with questions of political asylum--and I am wondering if we have done anything to urge the OAS to look into this question on strictly humanitarian grounds.

K: I don't think--in the last few days, I've not had the chance to follow this as closely as I should--I don't think we have, but I have a meeting scheduled this afternoon--an interdepartmental meeting on Chile--and I will raise this issue and if anything develops, I'll call you first thing in the morning.

C: That'd be fine. I appreciate it if you would. We've been--we've often been the asylum you know for fascist exiles in this country--I don't propose we be an asylum for these Chileans, but I think there are other countries like Mexico that might open up their gates for some of these

DECLARED
AUTHENTIC EC 12958
BY NAR. Die 6/16/73

TELCONE

Mr. Kissinger/Senator Aiken

10:45 a.m. 9/20/73

K: I just wanted to tell you how much I appreciated the role you played
in these hearings--

A: The what?

K: You know--you kept me focused on some--

A: I see.

K: And that I hope to be able to work closely with you.

A: I had a good time last night--trying to make sure when you get up there
Monday that you wouldn't be all alone.

K Good are you coming?

A: I don't know about that--but we'll wait until you are confirmed and decide
on that.

K: I hope you and Mrs. Aiken will be able to come.

A: I'll tell her--that might make a difference you know. So all right,
last night I had a hell of a time getting this fellows confirmed--Bill
Fulbright didn't act bad at all. Somebody else--I'm not sure there
was a quorum of the committee present when they were all voted out
but as far as your ambassador and your delegates and their alternates,
they were all confirmed.

K: Very good.

A: And that came about as far as we could go last night. The other three
have been with us since last spring anyway and we'll have to work on that.

K: That'd be very helpful.

A: That didn't have to be done last night. But I sure did try to impress on them that we couldn't send you up there and not have a single authorized US delegate

K: No that would have been terrible.

A: All right, we'll keep watch of it.

K: Good Senator, and I hope we can get together soon after my confirmation.

A: Yes, All right, I guess we can. K: Many thanks.

DECLASSIFIED

TELCOM
Mr. Kissinger/Senator Pell

10:51 a.m. 9/20/73

P: Henry.

K: I just wanted to call you to tell you how much I appreciated your conduct during the hearings and prior to the hearings--

P: I t<eally--you know--meant what I said--very much indeed and I think
--tomorrow you know we are moving the confirmation up to today

K: You are?

P At least--my office was asked what we thought of the idea and said fine
so it looks but if any one member of the Senate objects, then it can't
be moved up--

K: Right

P But do appreciate your calls very much and look forward to our working together.

K: And I look forward to working together and I hope we implement the things that I said during my hearings.

P: I'm very glad to hear that and look forward to it tremendously and
thank you for your call.

K: Thank you.

P: Bye Henry.

DECLASSIFIED
Security E012658
By: SAR, P.O. 6/9/94

TELCONE

SG Waldheim/Kissinger

1:10 p.m. - 9/20/73

K: Hello.

W: Yes, this is Waldheim speaking.

K: Hello, Mr. Secretary General, how nice to hear from you.

W: Thank you, Dr. Kissinger. I'm very busy with the General Assembly now.

K: I can imagine. I'm sorry I was out of the office when you called.

W: Well, it's very kind of you to return the call. Dr. Kissinger, first of all again my sincerest congratulations to your appointment and to your confirmation. I am very happy that this will give me the opportunity to meet with you more often than perhaps in the past.

K: Well, I look forward to that and I count on that.

K:

W: Thank you very much. / As I understand it, I am scheduled to have dinner with you and the Permanent Members of the Security Council on Wednesday.

W: That's right and I hope very much you can come and join us. It's on the 26th next Wednesday in my residence near the United Nations on Sutton Place. This is a dinner which is given every year for the Foreign Minister of the five Permanent Members of the Security Council so I would

K: No, I will definitely be there.

W: That's very fine.

K: But I would like to go back to Washington that night. Do you think it is impolite if I left around ten-thirty.

W: Oh, I think we will start - the invitation is for 8:15 - we will start at 8:45 and I'm sure the dinner will be over at 10 or 10:15 or so.

K: That will be marvelous.

W: There's no problem and if it should last a little longer everybody would understand.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: EO 12958

By: CAPT. NAR. DUE 6/16/73

K: Is there an agenda for these dinners?

this

W: No, purposely not because you see last year I discussed/with Bill Rogers because once I think it was three years ago under U Thant it was - they tried to have a sort of Middle East working dinner and Rogers wanted to avoid that and I discussed it with him and made it a social occasion. Of course whoever wants to talk to the other foreign minister it's fine but it is not

K: No, I think that's much better.

W: In fact in order to underline this I invited this time the ladies too, and that will of course give the whole thing the character of a social event. Of course, the men can talk shop and discuss whether there is a problem.

K: Should I bring somebody then or

W: I just wanted to suggest if you would be good enough to take a lady with you I would be delighted and my wife of course too.

K: I will let you know no later than tomorrow morning. That's informal isn't it?

W: It is in Black tie.

K: I didn't know one could get the Russians into black tie.

W: Oh yes, Gromyko personally always comes in black tie. When he is New York, in the Western Hemisphere he, not the other Russians, but he personally always shows up in black tie and I don't think he appreciates it.

K: Is - will the Chinese Vice Minister be there?

W: I don't know yet. I asked the Ambassador Huang Hua and he said he doesn't know yet whether he will be here in time. The Deputy Foreign Minister thinks he's not coming. He newspaper reports are not correct.

K: No, I know it's Chow Kuan Hua that's coming.

W: Yeh, but he couldn't tell me exactly the date of his arrival, but I can let you know as soon as I can.

K: It doesn't make any difference.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: EC 12458

By: SAR: Die 6.10.64

W: If he is not here then Ambassador Kuan Hua will represent him.

K: Right.

W: But all the other foreign ministers have accepted and...

K: You can count on my being there.

W: Well that's very kind. Thank you very much. May I also tell you that I would be very happy if we could have half an hour or so alone to talk a little about some of problems you, of course, are interested. I would like to give you personal information on my impressions in the Middle East.

K: I would like that. Now Mr. Secretary General, we haven't made a formal request for an appointment with you because I'm not techincally confirmed but we had envisionaged perhaps my calling on you around 9:45 on Monday. Would that be convenient?

W: I don't know. If possible, I will certainly rearrange my program..

K: And that would give us half an hour.

W: Fine. That will be marvelous because I've also got interesting information on the situation in Vietnam by the Foreign Minister. I assume that you are of course better informed of all this but I thought I should mention it...

K: Well, I would be interested to have that view. Well, I expect to work very closely with you Mr. Secretary.

W: Well I'm most grateful for this and I'm looking forward very much to a close and fruitful cooperation.

K: I count on it.

W: Thank you very much Dr. Kissinger.

K: And I see you then on Monday morning. I'll call on you Monday morning.

W: Fine. Thank you very much.

K: Good Mr. Secretary General. Bye.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 1258
BY DR. NARAYANAN 6/10/64

- 3 -

TELCON

F. Mankiewicz/HAK

September 20, 1973/2:42 p.m.

M: Henry.

K: Frank, how are you?

M: I'm fine. I have to... I was talking to Frank Touch this morning and he told me you might be having some kind of discussions about Chile this afternoon.

K: That's right.

M: And I thought if I could I would take about a minute and a half and give you a couple of notions which may or maynot work. I don't know what attitudes are but it seems to me that with foreign correspondents in there now we are going to start to get I think a fair amount of rather unpleasant reporting because all of the reports I get are that these are not very nice people and very insecure. And that there are probably alot more people dead and there may be you know torture going on and people being held in the stadiums and that all has a bad ring. It's not your kind of classic Latin American coup by any means and from the fact that they're making up all kinds of storeis. Maybe they are all true but it's hard to believe that these people were simultaneously stashing Russian arms and planning assassination plots and stealing all the money. I mean that has all the ring of insecurity that those stories are coming out of the juanta. I think that regardless of what kind of face the U.S. is going to put toward this at a very minimum we could be talking about human rights you know. About assylum and respecting assylum and after all the coursts are working. There is no reason to have military tiles of civilians make that kind of representation, because, I'll send you the excerpts from the newspapers that are being printed and statements that were made in the week or so prior to the coup. They talk about an Indonesian solution which is most omnious. And I also got this 2 days ago. Something somebody sent me a full week before the coup, which was an editorial in the Christen Democratic paper. The party paper. A most straight anti-semitic editorial including last names of the suffixes of names of people we must now go after. This editorial says, "the Soviet Union is an anti-Jewish dictatorship and Chile is pro-Jewish communist dictatorship." I just can't believe that more than 9 Jews in the whole country.

K: I was just going to say.

DECLASSIFIED

Authentic EC 12/58
BY order of the President

M: I don't think its Jews they're after but it indicates a state of mind that I think is most unlatin.

K: Yeah. That is amazing.

M: I assume we have people down there now but as I say I would guess that by tonight, tomorrow morning, the next day, the foreign journalists are going to put quite a different face on it. You're going to have foreign journalists being arrested. not

K: Well, you know, I told Frank that this was something that we were discussing this afternoon but really, only in a sort of a fact finding way. I'm not in a good position until I'm confirmed and sworn in really to take a reading roll but I did tell Frank that I would raise the assylum issue.

M: Yeah, you see there is a U.N., there's a OAS rights commission and unlike anything connected with OAS he has done some good work in the past. Almost in spite of himself and has some respect down there. I think it would be very difficult for these people to refuse to let it in. The civilians even are trying not to let them come in and investigate allegations of torture a couple of years ago and we're not on it which is even better. I think 5 members and kind of a distinguished jurist ______ and I would think anything that could promote their coming in or sending a representative in would be very effective.

K: Let me...this is a point about which perhaps I can do something this afternoon but don't expect it.

M: I realize you're in a very difficult position.

K: I'm going to look into it.

M: When do you think confirmation is coming?

K: I think they are voting tomorrow morning. I think there is unanimous consent now to vote tomorrow morning.

M: Well that's fine.

K: And then I'll be sworn in Saturday but next week I'll have to spend three days at the U.N.

M: Seeing the new members.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12458
By NAR. Pp 6/10/64

K: Well, I've got to deliver the speech and ... for the U.S. It gives me a chance perhaps to say something a little more thoughtful than has been said in recent years though I have hardly the time to prepare something.

M: Well, I think it is a good opportunity. Don't let them ask you questions afterward. That's my advice to you but you know major foreign policy speakers do not accept questions. Do you think the White House wants Agnew to resign and then you'll say I have no comment and then that's the story.

K: I'll bet that's right.

M: So just keep your counsel

K: No, I'll say I couldn't be interested in it since I'm ineligible.

M: That's right constitutionally ineligible. I think you'll do fine up there. So it's tomorrow. That's good.

K: I hope so.

M: And then you'll be sworn in Saturday.

K: That's what it looks like.

M: OK.

K: Many thanks.

M: I'm just passing this on because you know when ever anything happens

K: That's what I want you to do Frank

M: 10 or 15 people call me up every hour

K: I want you to feel that I am a place you will try and call and should call.

M: Normally I'll do it by paper but you know this thing is moving fast and I....

K: I enjoyed seeing you on Saturday.

M: Yeah, and we'll set up a couple of dinners up here very soon. Holly thinks that's an excellent idea.

K: Good. McGovern also mentioned it when he called me the other day and told me he was going to vote against me but...

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12458

By NAR. P. 6/16/94

M: Yeah, I thought that was a pretty good statement of his, all things considered.

K: It was a good statement. No, he had his constituency to worry about.

M: Sure. I thought it

K: I/was the minimum criticism he could make.

M: That's right. That's exactly my thought that he could have done a lot more.

K: No I understood it very well and there were no bad feelings, not only no bad feelings, I thought it laid the basis for good...

M: I had dinner with him last night and he told me that he had called you and I said I thought, my feeling was that you would respect that considerably. He said he thought you had. So I think that will be good. Well, alright. If I get other things I'll pass them along.

KXXXXXXXXXXXX

K: Good wonderful. Bye.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority E072458

By: Q&P NAR. LTR 6/10/84

Telcon
Mr. Kissinger
AG Richardson
9/20/73; 3:30 p.m.

R: J. T. Smith has just given me an account of his review of the transcript of your Executive Session testimony. He has been over it with Peter Rodman. There is one point I wanted to underscore -- national security wiretaps -- we really feel strongly that that out to come out.

K: We have taken it out.

R: I hope you will insist on that and not agree with the alternative redraft.

K: I am not aware that there is an alternative redraft. I instructed my people to accept the changes that J. T. Smith recommended.

R: J. T. recommended its being out entirely -- page 131.

K: All right. What is your ...

R: It was focussing on my letter to the Chairman.

K: I know exactly what you are talking about. What do you object to?

R: Your language in the transcript confuses(?) judgment in the Halperin suit.

K: I was not aware my people were offering compromises.

R: I don't think they are offering . . . . J.T. and Rodman did work out language to soften the damage that was done. I am just saying, in my view, you should insist on having it out period. I was afraid you might go along with the rephrasing.

K: I was not even given an alternative language.

R: Maybe that was because Rodman considered the alternative was poor and didn't even bother you.

K: If you don't hear from me in ten minutes you can assume that Smith's recommendation prevails.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E012458

BY: ROBIN D. MCGINNIS

TELCONE

Senator McGee/HAK

September 20, 1973/5:00 p.m.

K: Hello.

M: Henry. I was just returning your call. I just walked in the office.
I've been down at Ocean City making a speech.

K: I just wanted to call you to tell you how much I appreciated your
behavior during the hearings and how much I look forward to
working with you.

M: Well, that's all we earned you know. That takes no performance.
It's cool to work with those guys. I tell you that's something.
And then look what they did to us on those U.N. ambassadors. Just
the moment we walked out of the room there on my way to the
Bhutto luncheon you know. As soon as you get out of sight. Cutting
17 million after we had agreed there were no more roll call votes.
You just run around putting out fires. No time to think positively.
Isn't that something. We're looking forward to this very much.

K: Well, they've still got to vote tomorrow but I think that won't be
too difficult.

M: No, I wouldn't think there would be any difficulty. They'll be 4 or 5
I suppose popping off their little attention getters but nobody will be
listening.

K: Well, I just wanted to tell you that I've appreciated what you've done for
our foreign policy over the last 4 1/2 years that I've been here and that
I hope to work together closely with you.

M: Very fine. You just let me know whenever it's important to get something
going you know.

K: Terrific.

M: OK. Bye. Be seeing you.

K: I'll look forward to it.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12458
By NAR. Dte 6/1/64

TELCONE

Senator Humphrey HAK

September 20, 1973/6:35 p.m.

K: Hello.

H: Hello.

K: I just wanted to call you to tell you how much your vote has meant to me in the Committee and also the way you conducted the questioning.

H: Well, I didn't do very much. I tell you Henry, I was for you from the beginning and I thought...

K: Well, I knew that.

H: And I'm going to be there tomorrow and we're going to have something to say as I have to my local people back home, the press called me and I just think that we're lucky to have you and I'm not trying to be flattering or kind.

K: Well we've been friends for a long time and I want you to know whatever your formal rank on this committee doesn't reflect my feeling toward you and I hope to work very closely with you.

H: Well, I'll look forward to that dear friend. I take it you know we've got more protocol than you've got in the State Dept.

K: It seems to be that way. I didn't realize that but it doesn't, I don't have to obey it and have no intention to follow it.

H: Say, by the way I had a call the other day from Richard Gardner, do you know him?

K: Yes I do know him.

H: I've known Richard for a long time but he called me about, I don't know whether I wrote to you about it or not. I guess not. Something about the Geneva situation as to whether or not there was going to be a singel Ambassador over there to coordinate our activities or not. Obviously our international activities, you know the U.N. agencies and all. He wanted to be considered. I've done my duty.

K: Right. I will do that. I will do that. I know him and he's a decent and good man.

DECLASSIFIED

H: I didn't know he knew something that there was some consideration being given to someone.

K: I frankly have to look into that. I don't really know whether there is. I used to stay out of Ambassadorial appointments in my present job and I'll know about that more in 2 or 3 weeks.

H: Yeah. Now we're planning to clear up this Ambassadorial thing that happened on the U.N. over here. I've been working Hugh Scott and some of the others.

K: That would be good

H: I think we'll get that done tomorrow.

K: That would be very helpful.

H: That's a sticky thing that happened there and we'll get rid of it. We'll have it before the early part of next week we'll have it cleaned up I'm certain.

K: That would be good and I hope to see you soon after I get back from the U.N.

H: Right. Now are you having some kind of a luncheon up there in New York? on Monday or something.

K: I'm having a luncheon in New York. Is it on Monday? On one of those days for the African delegation.

H: Yes, that's right. Someone mentioned it to me and since I am Chairman of that Subcommittee.

K: Oh, I'd love you to come. Could you come?

H: I'm not sure. Depending on whether, or what our Senate schedule is but I thought I'd mention it if I can I'll let your office know.

K: Good. You consider yourself invited.

H: Fine. If I can I'll let your people know.

K: You let us know and we'll make arrangements for you.

H: Now listen when you see that People's Republic Ambassador up there. They've called me over to their legation here in the Mayflower and talked to me. They heard I wanted to go and I had a nice visit with them.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: EC 12558
By: SAR. Dic 6/10/84

H: Very good. I am anxious to go and I'm sure everybody is. You hear this from everybody. But I really believe that in light of my background and all it would be a good place for me to go.

K: I think it would be great and I'll mention that to them. it

H: If you'll just keep in mind because I really believe that it would help me a great deal and in my public life now this is sort of a rounding out that I feel I need.

K: And I think it would help them a great deal.

H: I do to.

K: There aren't all that many honest and decent men in public life here that they can invite. At least that's my view.

H: Thank you Henry. See you then.

K: Bye.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12458

BY DONALD DUNCAN 6/10/64

TELCONE

September 20, 1973/ Time unknown

Senator Case/HAK

K: Hello

C: Hello Henry.

K: Clifford, I just wanted to call you to tell you that there were few votes that meant as much to me as your because....

C: Well, you're very nice. I appreciate that...I'm personally very happy about the outcome of the thing and I think...well it isn't a terribly pleasant experience to go through, I think it was better to have it all out than....

K: I wanted to tell you. I was actually grateful (a) that it was all brought out and also that you took me through each case.

C: Well, that was the only way I thought the people on the outside could be stopped mouth shouting about that.

K: I thought it was helpful and you did it in a very human way

C: Well you're very good sir and I appreciate that.

K: I talked to Muskie this morning and I proposed to him that perhaps he and you, as soon as I get back from the U.N. might agree to meet with me on a very informal basis and let me put before the issues as I see them and SALT because we're going to come up against a very rough domestic debate here.

C: I'd like to do that very much. We had lunch with Alexis and Nitzer. last week and I would like very much to have it for you obviously they...

K: What I would like to do, you know they have given you our formal position but I would like to talk to you in that a way that won't become public what some of the, what the formal position is sometimes a shorthand for. Particularly since I believe that is the way we'll wind up so that you'll have some sense where we're going.

C: I'd appreciate that and like it very much Henry. Good luck to you on Monday.

K: Thank you and I look forward to working with you.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E.O. 1245/8

By: J.G. NAR. Dated: 6/10/84

TELCOM

Ken Rush/HAK

September 21, 1973/10:20 a.m.

K: Hello.

R: Hello Henry.

K: Ken, how are you.

R: Fine thanks.

K: Ken, I'm working on that U.N. speech which at this minute is a total disaster.

R: Oh, that's too bad.

K: I mean it's about as good as Rogers' of last year but that in form I won't deliver it. So there are going to be two possibilities. I can't significantly improve it. I'm just going to talk for 10 minutes and Scalli may have to do a more serious one. But we'll see if we can get enough people can I get enough people on Sunday to come in and stand by and help me because I don't know what I can do today.

R: Well, Henry, we'll have anyone you want.

K: Well, you decide what we need.

R: Alright. We will have them here.

K: We need Topper anyway and Scalli probably. I may not ever turn to them but.... What I wanted to do was get some ideas in the scientific field. I mean I was going to have some things that can be done on a world-wide basis as examples and so whatever resources we have in that field.

R: Alright. You're talking about the world-wide... on a scientific basis you mean.

K: Right. You're going to be at the swearing in and luncheon tomorrow?

R: I'm looking forward to it, your swearing in. And I appreciate your inviting me. It will be a great day for all of us.

K: It's mostly the out of town people and a few white House associates.

DECLANDED
AUTHORITY
EC 12658
BY JOHN DE 6/16/64

TELCONE

Professor Paul Doty/HAK

September 21, 1973/10:45 a.m.

D: Long time, must have been busy or something.

K: I'm going out of my mind. I've now got to prepare my speech to the United Nations, assuming that the bloody Senate will confirm me this morning.

D: Yes, well I trust they'll do that.

K: Are you coming down tomorrow.

D: I think I will and I might also come down on Monday but your speech is Monday is it?

K: Yes.

D: I see. Thanks for asking me and I...

K: Well, I do want to see you as my life settles down. After the U.N. is over. What I wanted to ask you today Paul is, I would like to put into my speech some... one of the themes I want to have in there is there is at least in some fields a world-wide community such as in the field of science and some problems that should be settled on a global basis and I wondered since my colleagues seem totally incapable of producing anything at all that can be done a globas basis through a community of scientists whether you could check with a few people and let me have some ideas because of the day. I mean I just will not accept the proposition that a country that has MIT and CAT TAC and a few other play things cannot come up with 2 or 3 things that we are willing to back

D: I think part of the problem is that many of them get involved in sort of field sciences like oceanography where you cannot point to any one thing and therefore it doesn't make much impression in a speech. But you would like some visible...

K: That oceanography, even that they haven't come up with. It's just some areas of effort and perhaps some idea of how they could/approach.

D: OK, that's easy and in fact I'm just having my office now qualify who is head of the Wood's Hole Geographic Lab. I'll call you as soon as I can do it. Maybe I'll see you tomorrow.

K: Fine. Bye.

DECLASSIFIED

Authtcy EC 12/25/8

BY NAR. Die 6/10/84

TELCONE
Rowland Evans/HAK

Sept. 21, 1973; 11:04 a.m.

K: Two things: One, would you like to come to my swearing in tomorrow? Or are you coming?

E: I'd love to come, but Henry I have a problem. Where is it? In the old office?

K: In the East Room.

E: My mother and father are coming down and I'm taking them down to the farm tonight. But let me tell you at lunch what I can work out.

K: O.K. Now the second thing is, which is probably whether you can take your ______, I'm having a dinner for a small group of people who came from out of town tomorrow night.

E: It's out of the question.

K: That's out of the question?

E: Yeah, it's out of the question. Are you having your old Harvard professors?

K: Well, one of them and some of the people from the West Coast who came in.

E: Are there a lot of people coming in?

K: Yeah, there are quite a few. That's 10 or 12 people for dinner.

E: Well, that would be lovely, Henry, but it's out of the question I'm afraid, because we'll be down there with Mother and Daddy and there is just no way. I can't do it.

K: No, I understand. I'll never forgive you.

E: I told Dick Moore, I called him yesterday and said that I could not be seen with him at the Metropolitan Club and therefore we'd better not have lunch.

K: Now, we're going to have lunch but I'm......

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E072958
By: NARAYAN LAL 6/1/84

-2-

E: I'm clear of Moore but I'm going to have lunch with you in your office, aren't I?

K: That's right, but what I wanted to ask your indulgence in, really, at the lunch is two of my friends came in from the West Coast, men, and I wondered if you would object if they joined me, because I already had to stand them up for dinner last night.

E: Well, shall we talk business?

K: We can talk a little business, yes.

E: I really got some stuff I want to take up with you, I don't want to....

K: You can take it up, sure. We'll make it half social and half....

E: What time are they coming?

K: They're coming at.... Why don't you stay on a little bit afterwards?

E: I can do that.

K: And we can also talk at lunch.

E: What time do you want me?

K: At 1:00.

E: 1:00. Who are they?

K: Robert Evans and his brother. Evans is Production Chief of Paramount. He made "The Godfather."

E: I know, I know about him. And who's the other one?

K: His brother, Charles Evans.

E: So you got three Evanses.

K: That's it.

E: O.K. 1:00 in your office? And I'll tell you about swearing-in. I'd really like to do that. I might be able to work it out. Is Stu going up to the Cape?

K: Yeah, he won't be able to come.

DECLASSIFIED

Authentic EU 1245 &

BY QNAR. The 6/16/94

TELCON

Kay Graham/HAK

Sept. 21, 1973 - 11:10 a.m.

K: Hello.

G: Henry.

K: Kay, How are you?

G: Fine, how are you? You going to make it?

K: I don't know. With your paper even writing a friendly editorial.

G: Well, Henry, you know we're wholeheartedly behind you every moment of the time.

K: Actually, personally I believe that. Of course every vote you pick up for me in the Senate I lose in the White House. Have you thought of that?

G: Guess we hadn't even thought of it when we were backing you all the way.

K: Because the other day somebody from the Press Office called me and said he gagged after the first paragraph of that editorial and stopped reading it.

G: It must have killed him.

K: Yeah. Say, I called you, not knowing you were out of town. I'm having a dinner tomorrow night for a small group of people who came in for the swearing-in and I wondered whether you could come to that?

G: Oh, Henry, I'm brokenhearted. I have __________ institute and I'm going to the dinner and I have people coming in. I'm just bound in.

K: Well, I just wanted you to know that I was thinking of you, Kay.

G: Oh, listen Henry, that really was so nice of you.

K: It isn't nice of me. You were such a good friend in all difficult times. I won't forget that.

G: Do forget it because, you know, it's there and, ......

-2-

K: Well, I don't mean officially, I mean humanly. I don't care what the paper did, I care what you did personally.

G: You are so nice, Henry. It's very exciting and I wish so much I could be there. I have bought this house on the Vineyard and I'm just trying to get it finished. So I really have to go and I have Stuart, he's coming up if his health is o.k., which I think it is. You know, I had to have some people for him is why I had the people coming or I literally would turn around and come back.

K: Aren't you nice. Well, then I hope we can meet very soon after you come back.

G: Well, I hope so and congratulations, Henry. It is very exciting.

K: Thank you, Kay.

G: Bless you!

K: I hope to see you soon.

G: Thank you, bye.

K: Bye.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E072658

By: J. NAY, For 6/1/64

TELCONE

Gen. Haig/HAK

Sept. 21, 1973 - 11:45 a.m.

K: Hello.

H: Yeah, Henry.

K: I told you I'm having a lunch for some of the out-of-towners tomorrow afterwards. Should I invite the President to do that?

H: Yeah, I'd invite him. I don't think he'll come but I'd invite him. I don't think it would hurt.

K: Can you do that for me?

H: Sure.

K: Or whom should I ask?

H: Oh, no, no. I can do it. Look, Henry, he was a little goosey this morning about, you know we were running in two people today. He doesn't like the idea of your not coming in with these people.

K: Who were the two people?

H: Well, he had the Secretary General of SEATO.

K: I have to do that UN speech. Who is the second guy?

H: Well, the second guy was Phil O'Deen.

K: Well, I'll come in with O'Deen.

H: Yes, cause, you know, he has the feeling that it belittles him.

K: Belittles the President?

H: Yeah. You know, he agrees to see somebody but you're too busy to, in its bluntest terms.

K: O.K.

H: You know, sometimes that's a problem, but it was a little this morning. I thought you ought to know.

DECLASSIFIED

Authentic EC 12458
BY RONAR DUE 6/1/84

-2-

K: You see, these idiots didn't tell me that......

H: I'm sure of that, I'm sure of that.

K: ... what they made and I haven't got a speech at the UN.

H: Yeah, yeah. O.K., well, I just wanted you to know.

K: Now, should I invite Connally to the swearing-in since Rockefeller
is coming?

H: Oh, my. I suppose so. Yeah. We got the Vice President coming.

K: Is he coming?

H: I don't know. The question is, do we ask him?

K: You're inviting the Senators, aren't you?

H: Yeah. This is going to be some turkey soup. The whole issue may be
mute incidentally. We're having real problems.

K: Oh, really?

H: Yes.

K: You mean he may not resign?

H: That's right.

K: That's what Rockefeller picked up on the Hill yesterday.

H: That's right.

K: Well, let me call Connally.

H: Alright.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EO 12558

By JG SAR. DE 6/94

TELCONE

Senator Mansfield/Mr. Kissinger

12:40 p. m., September 21, 1973

M: Henry, you're over the easy part.

K: Thank you, Senator. I wanted to call you to tell you how much I appreciated your remarks yesterday. And how really serious I am about working together with you.

M: I've always known that, Henry. I'm glad it's over with and now we can start out fresh from here.

K: That is my really very firm intention. Will you be in Montana when I am out there on the 7th? You may be in China as a matter of fact.

M: Well, I intend to make every effort to be with you.

K: It would be terrific.

M: Okay. Fine, Henry, and congratulations.

K: Thank you, Senator, and thank you for everything you've done over the years.

M: It was a pleasure. I'll see you.

K: I'll look forward to it.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 1258
By NAR. P. 6/1/84

["TELCOM", "Ambassador Dobrynin/Mr. Kissinger", "12:45 p.m., September 21, 1973", "K: Hello.", "D: Hello, Henry.", "K: How are you?", "D: Thank you very much. Gromyko just stepped out so he asked me to congratulate you with the very best wish and welcome to the mutual admiration club.", "K: Thank you, thank you.", "D: He just want to tell it personally but now I am telling you. He signed just now a letter which Vorontsov, who is here, will deliver to General Scowcroft when he gets back. I mean official letter but unofficially he wants to say the very best wishes to you and he really would like to congratulate you as a Minister on a personal basis.", "K: I think both are important and the second may be even more important in our relationship.", "D: Yeah. He just wanted to tell you exactly this really in a very good sense and he appreciated the relationship which was established with you.", "K: We will accelerate.", "D: Both official and unofficial, on a person to person relationship. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Amb. Dobrynin/Mr. Kissinger

2

D: In our case it will be Gromyko, myself and Sukhodrev.

K: That's fine.

D: Okay.

K: Good.

D: It will be 8:30?

K: 8:30, and I don't know -- at the Waldrof. We will let you know
exactly where.

D: Okay. You will notify and so on. But you notice that the Foreign
Relations Committee voted quite nicely. (laughs) ................
beforehand.

K: Yeah, your troops are well trained.

D: Well, Henry, once again the very best wishes from me and our
Foreign Minister.

K: Thank you.

D: I know he will repeat it when he will see you on Monday.

K: I look forward to it. And I will take him aside first for half an
hour for a little chat.

D: Okay.

K: Good.

D: Well, thank you very much. Bye, bye.

K: Bye.

wgh

Amb. Dobrynin/Mr. Klessinger

2

K: That's fine.

D: Okay.

K: Good.

D: It will be 8:30?

K: 8:30, and I don't know -- at the Waldron. We will let you know exactly where.

D: Okay. You will notify us as soon as possible. But you must know that the Foreign Relations Committee voted quite nicely. (laughs) ...bedevhand.

K: Thank you.

D: Okay.

K: Good.

K: Bye.

wgh

TELCONE

Governor John Connally/Mr. Kissinger

12:50 p. m., September 21, 1973

C: Hello, Doctor.

K: John, how are you?

C: Fine, how are you?

K: Okay.

C: I just this minute got in from New York.

K: Oh, you're down in Texas?

C: I'm in Dallas, yes.

K: I just placed a call to you this morning while they were voting to tell you that what we discussed the other day I really mean to carry out very scrupulously.

C: I appreciate that. I understand that. Incidentally, if you're talking to Nelson, which I assume you will be, and you may not want to deliver this but if you want to deliver the message, I wish you would. Just tell him not to get uptight about anything. It's a hell of a long time to '76.

K: That's right.

C: The reason I say that is I went to a Wickham outing yesterday in New York. Jock Whitney and his people. They always invite a few guests and there were about 65 of us there. Jack Javits was supposed to be there. Nelson got all upset about me being invited. Well, I've gone to all the affairs since 1942 and Walter and Jock Whitney invited me and there wasn't a damn thing political about it. We played golf and had dinner and that's all there was to it. But Nelson got upset about it and called Jack Javits and told Jack not to even come because I was going to be there. Well, you know, there's no point --

K: Well, I'll do my best.

C: You may not even want to mention it.

K: No, if you want me to, I'll mention it to him. He's coming to my swearing-in tomorrow because of our old association and you'll understand that.

DECLASSIFIED

Gov. Connally/Mr. Kissinger

2

C: Of course I do. You're going to take the oath tomorrow?

K: Yeah.

C: Well, I wish I could be there but I can't and I hope you'll understand that. We got this airport dedication down here.

K: I was hoping you might be able to.

C: I just can't make it. I'm Master of Ceremonies here all day tomorrow.

K: If you're Master of Ceremonies, it will be a lively show.

C: I'm real sorry we're not going to be there.

K: I'll miss you but I hope that when you next come into town, you'll let me know.

C: I will.

K: We could have lunch or dinner or whatever suits you.

C: That would be great, Henry.

DECLASSIFIED

Auriculithic EO 12658

By CAPTAIN F. M. 6/10/64

TELCOM

Joe Alsop/HAK

September 21, 1973/2:57 p.m.

K: Hello.

A: Hello Henry, how are you?

K: OK Joe.

A: I've been checking up on you.

K: I would have assumed that the Alsop family grapevine is working well.

A: Not mentioning the Bradon grapevine. Look, I want to come and talk to you on business for a moment.

K: Yes, but it's not conceivable before tomorrow.

A: No, I see that. What I was thinking of was almost anytime this weekend when I'll be in town alone.

K: Good, let me aim for that, I've got to get my speech to the U.N. ready.

A: Yes, I do see that. You told me but... and it's very important and you must have absolute priority but it wouldn't take too long.

K: Joe, I would like you to come to my confirmation if that doesn't corrupt you.

A: It doesn't corrupt me, it honors me. And I don't know when it is.

K: I mean to my swearing in at 11:00 on Saturday morning.

A: I will be there. At the W.H. I assume. I'll put on my best and be there

K: Good will see you then.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E.O. 12458

By: CAPT. NAR. Dae 6/16/64

TELCORN

Bill Safire/Mr. Kissinger

3:02 p. m., September 21, 1973

S: I understand you're not going to be the first man confirmed by the
Senate but you'll be the first man bar mitzvahed by it.

K: That is right. They didn't take your advice.

S: No, I was hopeful they would hang you up for a while until everybody
spills the beans but they didn't. I'm calling on two things. One, to
see if I can set up a date with you to ask you some questions about
the developments of the China situation, particularly ........ for my
book. Secondly, on a specific thing that one of the <u>Times</u> reporters
got hold of to find out if you can say anything about the wiretapping of
Henry Kissinger. The story he's got is that you were the target of
a plumbers' operation.

K: I wouldn't be surprised but that's not for attribution.

S: No. He's got three-quarters of a story.

K: Look, this one I can answer this one very easily. In terms of knowledge,
I just don't know about it.

S: You can't give me a hint either way, off-the-record?

K: Off-the-record, I expect it to be true.

S: #@*&!

K: Well, let's see, that may explain some of the other things in
a better --

S: When? Back in '69?

K: Well, I don't really want to go into it. But I have no way really of
going into that. And what I told you was off-the-record.

S: I just won't tell the reporter anything then. He says he's got 3/4 of
the story. It's that same reporter that gets everything, sooner or later.

K: Yeah.

S: But at any rate, that won't hurt you I don't think.

K: I don't see how it can.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: EU 7/25/8

BY NAR: Die 6/16/84

Bill Safire/Mr. Kissinger

2

S: Quite the contrary, as a matter of fact.

K: Well, it makes it clear that the plumbers were certainly not working for me.

S: (laughter) Well, are we still on talking terms? Can I still get to see you and find out what really happened in the world?

K: Of course.

S: When can you see me?

K: Well, look, I've got to go to the UN so let's say the week after next.

S: Okay, fine.

K: Good, Bill.

DECLANIFIED

Authority EC 12958

By: RPAR, P.O. 6/10/84

TELCONE

Paul Doty/Kissinger

3:55 p.m. - 9/21/73

K: Hello, Paul.

D: Do you have about two minutes to hear what we have up here and see how you want us to convey it and summarize it.

K: If you give me the thinking I will then get somebody to call and get it in greater detail.

D: Yes, well, we were off base, but if we had to take a single start I would say that if you could suddenly adopt, in a manner of humility, and say that we had to recognize that we are facing an increase in the intense global involvement in problems forced upon us by increased rates and population and the limited ability of the force to sustain what is being put upon it. The doers really do force an increased attention on the part of all the inhabitants that has to do with them that the kind of problems that are going to be foremost are those that cannot be dealt with unilaterally or bilaterally but involves both the ______ and the coronations, at least this is the context I'm defining. And then one would have a specific examples, each one of which could be that we have not done enough but for real progress it involves a crusading (?) of the operation.

K: And what are the themes?

D: The one I would say is finding the appropriate technology for the ______ countries. We've gone through many experiments in which we tried to give them our technology and it hasn't worked; we've gone through a few phases where they tried to develop their own and that generally hasn't worked because they don't have enough experience or enough capital and the real solution has to be a decision as to whether it's better to develop their own through their own R & D which does require some capital or whether it is cheaper to adopt high technology for low technology and that is really the essence of the unsolved problem and I think even if one puts it in the form of a question instead of a proposed solution that it's all one can do.

K: Right.

D: Secondly to give you a specific example, we have this earth resources satellite program and the first experimental satellite is going up around. But how do we figure out its output - it's a fantastically complex problem. Do we give the data on other countries to everybody?

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E.O. 12458

Authority

BY AR. Dae 6/16/84

2

D: (con't) or only the country that was taken over? In that case it leaves us with a monopoly of total information. But to give the data on Country X to other countries involves some cooperation and an agreement from Country X. Do we give the raw data or do we give the processed data - everyone doesn't need to go into this detail except to indicate

K: What's the problem?

D: There appears to be on the surface a new technology that could be simply fared is running into an enormous number of complications and yet it has enormous resources for very quickly seeing what ought to be done where with regard to crops, pests and water programs and everything. The third one would be how do we provide sufficient and adequate nutrition. We could be just going through a period of a climactic setback and how much this is going to limit us in the future is not known because research is at such a poor state and that requires an awful lot of collaboration to put that on a global setting. Do we want to have a food reserve or don't we and if we do, do we want to pay for it and of course that involves U.S. policy too because our grain people don't want a food reserve. The ______ was a great breakthrough but it was two decades in coming, how much do we invest in another

K: This is exactly what I have in mind. Look, can I get either Larry Eagleberger or Winston Lord to call your office in the next 45 minutes and get some of this. Or do you want to dictate it to a secretary?

D: Well, I don't have it written down yet so it's just as I'm going along to you.

K: I'll get them to call you. other

D: The main thing is that I do by chance have a number of early drafts of some very short papers being written for Morris Strong under what he's calling an outer limits program - what are the real essentials of disaster that we see. And I'll bring them down tomorrow morning because they would offer some good general thoughts.

K: That would be very good.

D: You just might see a phrase or sentence that would fit right. So I'll do that and then I guess if I continue with you I have just one more point and that is how to put in the population and I have some suggestions for that. For example, the impact of the double population by the end of this century on food supply, health, so on and so forth. It is unlikely that without the real strength we will be able to keep up with the per capita

and the status we have now. But beyond these prospects there is now
serious question of whether the impact of much numbers now seems
inescapable and place burdens on the weather systems, the quality
of air and so forth. In other words, I was thinking of ending up with
the point of view that no matter how much salt might be available

D: (Cont'd) ...all the good will in the world can operate.

K: Good, excellent. I'll get you called if anyone wants to check some of these thoughts.

D: Okay.

K: Within the next hour. Thank you, Paul.

D: And I'll look for you tomorrow, if I can come by.

K: Good.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E0_12458

By: SPNAR, FEB 6, 1964

TELCONE

Bob Pierpoint/HAK

September 21, 1973/4:55 p.m.

P: Every once in a while. It's just a good thing they didn't know I.... Listen at that ceremony tomorrow Henry, we are going to film it obviously and I just wondered if there would be time somehow after in order to make the story a little more meaningful if I could talk with you on camera. I want to do a piece for tomorrow nights television show about the whole thing and I think it would add a great deal to it if I had a chance to.

K: The trouble is I have to go into the receiving line right afterwards.

P: That's right. What time is the ceremony? 11:00?

K: I believe 11:00

P? Would there be any way I could go and set up somewhere outside and do it with you after the whole thing is over.

K: I don't think, with all these guests milling around, and I have to go off with the President and stand in the receiving line. / You do, that's right. It's gonna be awkward then.

P:

K: Yeah.

P: Could we do something a little later in the afternoon when you're free. I don't want an indepth interview obviously but.

K: Let me see whether I can do it. Can you call me around 10:00 in the morning.

P: Sure.

K: OK. Do that. Bye

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BY R.NAR. DUE 6/10/64

AELCON

Bryce Harlow/HAK

September 21, 1973/6:30 p.m.

K: Hello.

H: I feel it's a great privilege to talk to you sir.

K: Well, it's the last time. I just wanted to tell you.

H: Well, goodbye and good luck.

K: Now Bryce I looked over that list of Senate, of Congressional participants and I notice there isn't a single member of the House Foreign Committee invited.

H: What list of Congressional participants?

K: At the swearing in.

H: I haven't seen it. There's nobody there from the House.

Doc

K: Well, no one that I know. Certainly not Doc Morgan or Myard

H: I'm surprised by that.

K: Then we have the chief Council staff director of the Senate Arms Forces Services Committee, General Council of the Senate Armed Service Committee and no one from the Foreign Relation Committee.

H: Marcy is not invited.

K: No, at any rate he is not there.

H: I can't believe that.

K: I'm telling you. Is Timmons there with you.

H: He just now left a little while ago because he knew when you called...

K: I think this is crazy.

H: I don't understand that either.

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K: Harold Hughes is coming who voted against me.

H: [REDACTED] McGovern.

K: No, they missed him.

H: He wants to be around you now. I don't understand that Henry. It's not my impression of how it ought to be.

K: Well, let me talk to them.

H: Who prepared it for you.

K: I left it to the Congressional people but I would have thought out of courtesy they would check with me.

H: Congressional people here. Where there must be something funny about that because they know better than that.

K: Well, let me check.

H: OK. Bye.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12658

BY [REDACTED] MAR. 6 1964

TELCONE
Senator McGovern/HAK

September 21, 1973/6:57 p.m.

M: Hello

K: George.

M: Yes Henry.

K: How are you?

M: Fine and you.

K: I'm fine. George I just wanted to make sure that, there is such a turmoil here with the swearing in for tomorrow, that I want to make particularly sure that you had been invited and to tell you that I would be very pleased if you would be able to come but I'd understand that on short notice you may not be able to.

M: Well, I appreciate that. I talked to Fred Weber a little while ago and I told him that I had agreed to preside over the Senate but if I can get somebody to take my place, that I'll try to come.

K: Good, well I'll understand if you can't but I wanted you to know that I....

M: You're very nice. Especially to call somebody's who voted against you.

K: Well, I thought I understood what you were doing.

M: Well, I do appreciate it and I'll try.

K: My megalomania has reached the point that I didn't take it personally.

M: Well, I certainly didn't mean it personally and I'm sure you understand that.

K: No I understand the problem and I understood what you were doing.

M: I appreciate your calling and I'll try to make it. I understand it's at 11:00.

K: Right.

M: OK. I appreciate the call.

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BY R.NAR. DUE 6/16/64

TELCONE

Danny Kaye/HAK

September 21, 1973/8:28 p.m.

K: Hello.

DK: (French) Can't attend ceremony.

K: That's a pity. I will miss you.

DK: When somebody called me I had wild notions about leaving here
tonight and coming in for the ceremony and then coming back here
tomorrow. Crazy you know.

K: Not, have worked.

DK: I just wanted to tell you that I'm really terribly proud and pleased
and happy about it all and I wish I could be there.

K: Well, aren't you nice and I'll miss you Danny.

DK: What time is it going to be tomorrow?

K: 110:00

DK: 11:00 and how long does it last.

K: 20 minutes.

DK: Do you speak?

K: 5 minutes.

DK: Are you going to leave the country fairly soon, Henry or are you going
to be around.

K: I'll be around until about the 20th. I must be in Europe on the 15th and
16 of October.

DK: I come back here, I go back to Calif. then I come back here about the
17th or 18th but you'll be gone by then. Are you going West at all.

K: I don't think so, but look I'll be here until the 18th or 19th and then I'll
be here all of November.

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DK: Most of November, the first part of November I will be in Turkey, I told you and then I will be home. Now Henry, where will you be from about the 2nd of October on through the remainder of that week. Would you be in Washington?

K: Washington or New York, one place or the other?

DK: I may have to go from here to California. If I don't then I will come maybe directly to Washington. I'll call you and maybe I can see you for a half hour.

K: Look, I'm giving a dinner in New York on the 4th for all the U.N. delegation Why don't you come to that.

DK: Gee. Would you like me to do that?

K: I'd love it.

DK:: Fine. That's on a when.

K: Thursday.

DK: Listen, I think we may have a date.

K: You come to that Danny. You're the U.N. all by yourself. The only thing I'll ask is that you speak in the dialect of all 140 nations.

DK:: I will come and I will sit there and glow and see your part in the proceedings as an observer and I will be delighted and happy for you. OK.

K: Terrific.
you

DK: Where would be in N. Y. Henry.

K: I'll be at the Waldorf. Call my office in Washington. That's the easiest.

DK: They'll let me know.

K: Yes.

DK:: OK, are you sure it's alright that I come on the 4th.

K: Not only alright but I want you to.

DK: In that case since I'm going to miss that tomorrow I will definitely meet you in N. Y. on the 4th.

K: It's black tie.

DK: OK, have a nice ceremony and I'll be thinking about you.

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Authority: E.O. 12458

TELCONE

Strom Thurmond

September 21, 1973/10:09 p.m.

K: Hello.

T: Dr. -- Strom Thurmond.

K: How are you.

T: It won't be long now and you'll be confirmed overwhelmingly.

K: Aren't you nice.

T: I just want to congratulate you and wish you the best of luck.

K: Well, Senator, you know, we have to make a lot of noises here but we know where our real friends are.

T: That's right. Now we're doing all we can on this Kennedy Bill to, we're going to do all we can to uphold that.

K: Well, that's absolutely essential.

T: Yes sir. Let me ask you this. There's a man from my state who is acting Chief of Protocol, Marion Smoot, and he's done a good job. I've talked to a lot of people, they all tell me he's done a fine job and I just wondered, would there be some chance to make him your Chief over there.

K: I haven't had a chance really to look at this situation. You know I've never had anything to do with protocol in my present job but I will look at that very soon after I'm sworn in.

T: I'd appreciate it if you would. Now, I'd hope you'd make him the Chief in the event you find he cannot them if you could just keep him on as Acting until next April, he'll have 5 years in and that would be a help to him.

K: Well, that I'll be able to do I'm sure.

T: Ok, and if you'll let me know when you've made a decision, I'd appreciate it. And good luck to you in every way.

K: Thank you and I'll be in touch.