TAPE ROLL NO.V.17
Shot No. 118

THE AGE OF UNCERTAINTY

J (cont)

So when K, you said you can't separate detante in Europe
from detante in Africa, I'm not quite clear as to what
that implies. Similarly the whole detante is indivisible
sort of like peace is indivisible. In point of fact, we're
never probably at least in our lifetime, although I hope
this will not be the case, have a form of ideological
detante with the Soviet Union, in the sense that there will
be the same free circulation of ideas limited, as qualified
as it may be in the West and you have that also in the
Soviet Union. So I think there's bound to be, I think detante
is in its nature peacemeal, selective, selective
geographically, because its not a means of creating
stability, its a recognition of stability and also
selective in what it applies to in the sense that
ideological detante is far down the road, economic detante
is quite close, political detante, nuclear detante.
That is my difficulty. (CHATTING TOGETHER)

I appeal to you gentlemen.

JKG
I just have one word on that, K. I agree with that and aren't
you sort of the living example. Didn't you get out of
Vietnam ultimately because of selective detante?

K
Well, it depends on how you define detante. You cannot
define detante as an end to history, that all turmoil ends -
that there's no further change in the world. That would be
an unpolitical and unhistorical approach to the question of
detante. In the Middle East, in Africa, in all areas where
either a physical or political equilibrium has not been
established, changes are going to go on and I think the
super powers have a responsibility to put some limit on
their intervention.

/cont

TAPE ROLL NO. V.17
Shot No. 118

THE AGE OF UNCERTAINTY

K (CONT)

Because if they push it beyond a certain point the other one will be drawn in and then their political relationship is bound to worsen. In Angola I would not have considered an MPLA victory undermining detante. We might not have liked it but that would seem compatible with detante.
What was difficult to accept is the introduction of combat forces from the Western hemisphere and massive amounts of Soviet Military equipment going beyond what has normally been given in this sort of a continent - in the Middle East for example, we are bound to be, therefore bound to be disagreements and there's going to be fluctuations in which one side or the other gain some advantages. There I would agree that we have to be able to be mature about the ebb and flow of some of the political competitions. But I think if we push it beyond a certain point then the danger of confrontation becomes too great, and so detante in its nature has a selective element because it isn't possible to stabilise all situations, at the same time, or maybe not even desirable. There'll be changes in Africa, but I think we and the Soviet Union have a particular obligation at least to let the local forces play themselves out and not to get into it in a way that we substitute for the local forces. This would be the kind of restraint that I have in mind, and with respect to non proliferation, with respect to the nuclear problem, in the field of strategic weapons, it is true that I believe that this is essentially between the United States and the Soviet Union with some contribution by the European nuclear powers.

/cont

TAPE ROLL NO. V.17

Shot No. 118

THE AGE OF UNCERTAINTY

B (Cont)

You see, I think the point on this is, leaving aside
Britain and France, we're already beyond that point as far
as China and India and Israel are concerned, and so when you
say you can reach an agreement about it, I'm not at all clear
that this is so - at the moment. It may be that in a
quarter of a century's time, it'll be possible to reach an
agreement, because then people won't feel they're being put
into a subordinate position by the two super powers or by
Europe, but I would have thought the chances of reaching
agreement in the sort of context in which K was talking
and to which Ralph has been talking and so on, is fairly
remote. But the point I'd like to come back to which I really
think is the immediate one as I said at the beginning, is not
- K's worry about an accident. I would have thought that
people who've got the nuclear really have got such a
complicated chain of control that it really is difficult to
have an accident. I notice K sat up very smartly when
Shirley said that you were off hand about that sort of thing.

K On our bases I don't think that's correct. (BOTH TALKING)

C Well I won't pursue it now but there have been losses of
plutonium, certainly.

K Not from military bases.

B Well let's not argue about this -

C There have been certainly losses of plutonium where its
been stored.

B The general control of weapons, so that if somebody goes
mad or run amok or gets a brainstorm or something, I would
have thought that the combination necessary ever for that to
happen is so minute that the chance of that sort of accident

/cont

- 14 -

THE AGE OF UNCERTAINTY

B (cont)

is remote. Now on the other hand I think the chance of
political misjudgement is very acute, and I don't really
accept the business about overall detante. I don't think
that's what Mr. Arbatov was saying. He said quite
specifically that there will be things from the Soviet side
which the Americans won't like and there maybe things from
the American side which the Soviet's don't like. That's a
perfectly fair statement and that's where the danger of
misjudgement is. Now I don't want to go back over Angola,
but my view of Angola is that the Soviets made specific
judgement that the action they took would not bring an
American response. Very well, they were right because they

made in the circumstances of the Presidential
Election Year and the revulsion of congress against ventures
abroad like Vietnam and so on. Now this is where the
danger of misjudgement comes and it is misjudgement which
is on Europe's doorstep. One can see in Europe today a
position where the Soviet Union would believe that it could
take action without American reaction and there might very
well be an American reaction. Now this is the real danger
which confronts us and you see, on this question of world
wide detante the other problem about it is this, we in
Europe let us say are in the area of detante. Alright, we
accept that at the moment, but if the Soviet Union is acting
in other parts of the world which seems to us to be out-
flanking the area of detante, then we're just as worried
about that as we may be satisfied about the area of
detante. Take the specific case, if the Soviet Union by its
action elsewhere in the world is in a position to stop the
oil supplies to Europe at a moment's notice -

/cont

THE AGE OF UNCERTAINTY

B (cont)

then detante in Europe to us is not all that much worse.
You might say we're not going to be wiped out by nuclear.
On the other hand, we can be paralysed because of the non
detante action which the Soviet Union has taken in other
parts of the world, but I think the immediate problem is
that in Europe today the Soviet Union could take action
believing that there won't be an American response and in
fact there wouldn't be an American response, and I mean one
says to oneself, well would the Soviet Union today take the
same action that it took in Czechoslovakia, in Hungary in '56
and Czechoslovakia in '68. Would the Soviet Union do that
again and this is a very crucial point because its
obviously a place in Europe where the Soviet Union would try
to re-establish a position and - yes and if you want to be
specific and what is going to be the consequence of that
happening. Now these are really the practical dangers which
face us at this moment and I'm not so worried about some
soldier or sailor running amok, but I am worried about a
misjudgement of that kind eh between the powers.

I

Yes well you know the word super powers is not used in our
political vocabulary and its not by chance or omission.
We don't consider both powers to have special rights, they
might have special obligations but no special rights and not
the right to establish a condominium eh or some sort of
political condominium and eh I would like to say that on
selective detante I don't believe in selective detante when
it is understood in such way that when something gets wrong
you must stop all other, but I believe in it that if
something gets opened and you can have an important

/cont

THE AGE OF UNCERTAINTY

I (cont)

agreement you must pursue it and not to wait or try to
attach it to some other things which doesn't happen,
because if we don't do it we'll have to wait a very long
time to really be able to do some sensible things -
and therefore what I said meant that we cannot have
improvement of our relations in the political field in
conditions when the arms race goes on or even intensifies.
This - cannot run for a very long time on parallel lines
you know - they have somehow to interfere, and it is very
important that the present state of arms race has sheer
common sense - point of view become irrational,
we had improvement, certain improvement in political
relations but it did only minimally effect, if it did
effect at all, the arms race because it was understood
that the arms race was caused by bad political relations
but now we are in a state where the arms race can cause
such political relations and create suspicion,
uncertainties and unstability. About Soviet Union and it's
policy. I don't want really to return to Angola for a long
time although it pops out over the time you -
me but I can say that

JKG

That was selective detante.

I

Yes I see. So you know it was perceived absolutely
differently from both sides - we saw certain signs of
foreign intervention there including South African
intervention and there was also to some degree, American
intervention by supply of arms to some factions and to
the MPLA which we supported for a long time, who was in a
desperate position, but we didn't seek military bases there,

/cont

TAPE ROLL NO. V17.
Shot No. 119

THE AGE OF UNCERTAINTY

I (cont) We don't intend to join Angola to worse effect, and think
in a couple of years it will be very clear that -
(INTERRUPTION)

Well it will be clear to everybody both probable -
I could say that what happened in Czechoslovakia was not
contrary to what was written in the Western Press. It was
an exceptional case of exceptional action which was taken
under extreme situation. It is not a model of Soviet
behaviour. We had many disagreements with some other allies
of ours, we never did it, and this was an exceptional case
and you cannot build scenarios in this way. I could say that
the reaction of the West to the constitutional, eh very
constitutional developments in Italy for example can cause
the same, you know the same concern among many countries
and to hear, I think, you don't have to be so exceptionally
concerned about Soviet Union but it doesn't really -

......

THE AGE OF UNCERTAINTY
TAPE ROLL VB2
Shot 35/1

1.

Are you just over for the weekend?

E: No, I was over for a Ford Foundation meeting. I'm a trustee of the Foundation (INAUDIBLE) .. one of their meetings earlier this week. And then I did a bit of fund raising I suppose.

J: Everything quietening down at LSE?

E: It's been quiet for the last two years. I don't know what it's going to be like next year because declining industries are very difficult to run and I'm beginning to feel in a declining industry.

J: You mean higher education in general .. (INAUDIBLE) ..

E: No, no not in particular, on the contrary, what I'm trying to do is the obvious and that is take one firm out of the destiny of the industry ... (INAUDIBLE) ..
? .. public and private isn't it.

E: Yes, it is applicable to public and private and you know it reminds me. There's an interesting phenomenon. I was Commissioner of the European Communities Textile industry, the European textile industry, and the sort of troubles we had there. Invariably employers and unions united, we're beginning to get that in universities. That is, we're beginning to get professors and students demonstrating against governments demanding something or other, you know it's precisely the textile phenomenon, which is very depressing because ....

A.M.: Has there, let's say within the last two hundred years, been anywhere that you consider that the balance has been achieved in the industrial -- I mean have they got it in Sweden for instance, is it dependent on (INAUDIBLE) .. or is it dependent upon characteristics of race or geography or .. You see what I'm getting at, I want the description to range as wide as possible. We have plenty time.

H: (INAUDIBLE) ... capability and, and real, real production, real industry.

A.M.: Whether there is a limit or whether it just goes on. I mean which way does it go?

F: I would need a little briefing too because I feel that I am the most <u>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</u> incompetent.

J: On the contrary, no, you're the most competent, probably, yes.

A.M.: You see, I mean you can talk about the individual.

THE A. OF UNCERTAINTY
TAPE ROLL VB2
Shot 35/1 CONT.

2

J: It's your field.

F: I'm, I'm approaching it from a purely medical point of view.

A.M.: Well that's a damn good point of view isn't it. I mean, the simple fact, I mean your point is that evolution in terms of stress has, has meant well the, the, there has been almost a mutation they say from pre-industrial times to industrial times, right. That, that, that the stress factors, the hormones and so on and so forth are, have actually mutated. That, that man has changed and has adapted to an industrial environment and that stress is a positive factor and not a ...

F: Well actually I think that my, my, my approach is mainly different from that of all others and perhaps not very compatable with it in, in that I don't think of it in terms of economical political changes, but I look at those as consequences of altered motivation. And altered biological motivation if I express myself right. That is to say, it has to give people motive instead of the standard values which they always accepted and most of which have lost much of their impact such as, I mean I don't say all of their impact but much of their impact such as various religions, various loyalties, various crowns and party political systems not implying a ruler. That these have lost their impact upon our youth and we gave them nothing instead.

A.M.: Does that mean that, that, that the individual, well society becomes sybaritic and only sybaritic?

F: I think there is a solution but it would be a complicated solution but at least, I tried to translate certain biological .. (INAUDIBLE) .. far such as for example, are we fighting immunity. Immunity is a useful thing. One needs it to get rid of bacteria and foreign bodies but if you happen to have a heart transplant and you mobilise your defence it's your own defence that's going to kill you. So you have to give the same hormones that the body puts out in order to, to supress immune phenomena you know. So I think that there are, it's more by analogy that I, I come to a behaviour .... That is to say, in biological fields we have learnt an awful lot about biochemical, neurological and so on, defence reactions, when they are useful and when they should be suppressed because it's the defence reaction itself that makes you sick, it's the classical example is a person who gets a cardiac .. (INAUDIBLE) .. by getting .. (INAUDIBLE) .. to fight and who killed him. He didn't fight, he killed himself by getting perfectly prepared to be adapted for fighting. His heart goes faster, he produces more adrenalin, his blood pressure goes up which prepares him for a fight, but that is not the solution between a boss or, or his employee or between family members who are in a

THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF UNCERTAINTY
TAPE ROLL VB2
Shot 35/1 CONT.

F: bad situation and would he be able to learn the code of behaviour which is in harmony with the laws of nature. They could do very much for him.

A.M.: In you, you, your last brief lecture Mr. (E), you, you... positive suggestions really in a more general sense than, than (INAUDIBLE) ... about this code of behaviour didn't you?

E: Well, (F) is talking about the individual and I was talking about society -- and these are not mutually exclusive but complementary. I really feel that we must have reached the end of the period in which industrial development and everything that goes with it is sort of a purpose in itself and, it seems to me that all the developed societies will only survive if they recognise that there's more to life than industrial growth, the growth of cities, the development of cities, the creation of more and more of the same thing and that seems to me is the great theme of the industrialised world, although the industrialised world is, of course, not the only world and it's quite true that different countries give different answers, that in my view is in any case a very important fact which we mustn't forget throughout this conversation. That we are not talking about one identical world but about very, very different experiences in different countries. And it is indeed my view that many countries, incidentally so-called capitalists as well as so-called socialists and indeed the so-called socialists more than the capitalists have made the same mistake. And that is the mistake to believe that the world of work, or the world of living around work is one which is bound to be messy and unpleasant and in many ways inhuman and in many ways we've made the mistake of believing that all we have to do is try to get out of it, that the great thing to achieve is for the working man to have more spare time and the great thing to achieve is for the city dweller to go out to the country and have a chance to go out to the country, and that I believe is wrong. That is, when I talk about improvement and about trying to improve society, what I really mean is an improvement of the work situation and an improvement of the city.

J: ... the city environment.... You know, I don't assume that everybody has to live in cities and I wouldn't identify, necessarily identify industrial development with cities but I am thinking of, of the city's environment rather than encouraging people to leave and of the industrial environment of the factory itself. Slogans like humanisation of work, reorganisation of the work situation.........

THE AGE OF UNCERTAINTY
TAPE ROLL VB2
Shot 35/1 CONT.

4.

E: ... and so forth, so forth, rather than encouraging people to work shorter hours and then have spare time, leisure time, free time after that. That seems to me is a great theme and to make just one further remark, what I think some of the advanced societies, some of the European societies have done some steps in this direction to - I mean the United States has in some respects and I think the socialist countries are far behind.

A.M.: But do you think that that would be enough incentive, I mean if you're making a motor car is that, is it enough incentive that you're making a motor car or do you have to do in say, as Volvo does it, in this modular system..

E: Well that's one of the things I had in mind. You know Volvo is one experiment and there are several views about it, but I think they are giving people some responsibility for what they do in their work place and arranging them in human groups rather than technical lines or -- conveyor belt, it, it's quite sensible and I would risk quite a bit of growth in productivity in order to achieve this but I don't think that growth in productivity is everything we should aim for.

A.M. But how would you do this, you know, I mean how would you start on this, have, what countries, since they can't even agree on, on how to limit arms, you know, which is a gross decision to make, how are they going to, how are we going to balance each economy so that they don't get out of stel and one country in trying to achieve a social equilibrium destroys itself economically.

E: You know, economies are out of step. They are out of step. If you look at European economies, shall we just make a prediction which may be wrong and perhaps one would hope that is wrong. I would assume that economic performance and individual income in Britain will continue to be significantly lower than economic performance and individual income in Germany. And I would assume that there are a few intermediate stages that perhaps one or two countries will move from one level to the other, there are going to be different levels and I believe, I really believe that these different levels are bearable if they are compensating social factors. And I would almost assume, it sounds a terrible thing to say, for a German who lives in Britain, that the British version of somewhat lower economic performance and individual income at - higher social equilibrium as you call it, may well be preferable.

5.

H:
I'd sort of like to know what (F) thinks of, of, of
this high hysteria we've had I think all over the world,
on this environmental issue from a medical point of view.
Have we over-stated the, the harm to the body of in-
dustrial pollution. Does it concern you, you've been
around before we developed this awareness.

F:
Well I don't think that it has been over-stated. It
certainly is a great problem but so is nuclear war and
so are revolutions and so is just general lawlessness
and so forth, and what I would like to learn mostly from
the other people, who are more competent in that field ..

END TAPE ROLL VB2

THE AGE OF UNCERTAINTY ▲
TAPE ROLL VB3
Shot 37/1

1.

H:

Doctor, I, I would like to hear from you on, on this
pure medical question in regard to this recent hysteria
over the danger of industrial pollution. Obviously, the
basis of it has to be is it, is it harmful to people and
communications people, social scientists, historians
can very comfortably be quite vague about this but I
don't, I'm not a doctor, I don't know whether the case has
been overstated by the environmentalists in the last few
years. I'd like to hear.

F:

I don't think it has been overstated. I think that it's
just that our centre of interest changes from time to time.
Right now we are thinking of that very much. But very
often when I'm asked about stress by journalists and on
television. They ask me the question, do we live in the
age of stress, is this a particular stressful age. I
think that's one of those questions that nobody can
answer because I don't think we have more stress or less
stress than the caveman. It's just that we have different
kinds. I don't know that it's more harmful or distressful
to be afraid of pollution or of atomic war or the crash of
the stock exchange than it is to be afraid of being eaten
up by a bear and since we have no way of making actual
comparisons between the, medically implications of the
two types of stress, I think it's anybody's guess. It's
my personal guess, but this I have no proof for, except an
empirical one. It seems to me that that's how everything
has always worked. Man has an innade tendency to go up
to the maximum of his distress tolerance, you know, like a
racehorse just likes to run and it likes to run as fast
as it can and it will meet the stress and strains of
whatever is the stress and strain in his particular
situation. But it's more a behavioural code that can
quiet you down or direct your endeavour into a direction
which is useful to you but not harmful to others and my,
we won't go into the biochemical and historiological and
clinical implications here, but what I concluded from it is
perhaps pertinent to this meeting and that is that if we
could reorient motivation, what we, we really want to
accomplish in life, it's after that that we should adjust
our other systems to it. Montaigne said that in a
remarkable way, which in original sounds like this ...
(FRENCH QUOTATION) ......... In English, 'No wind
blows in favour of the wind that has no port of des-
tination'. I thought that was an extraordinary way of
saying what I want to say and then Sir .. (INAUDIBLE) ..
in Britain wrote me a letter that he'd read the British
edition of my book and he called my attention to the error.
Montaigne actually repeated what (INAUDIBLE) ... said
fifteen hundred years ago before him, I don't think he
plagiarised, I think he just had the same idea. And he
said it in Latin and he gave me the exact quotation in
Latin so that this seems to be an inherent .. (INAUDIBLE)
.. that has been bothering humanity for quite a while.
And I think that our trouble in the schools ......

THE AGE OF UNCERTAINTY
TAPE ROLL VB3
Shot 37/1 CONT.

2.

F:

... the dropouts, with the drug addicts, with the violence, with the being dissatisfied with the working hours, with the conflicts between nationa, with the, the unions fighting the people who organise jobs, is not in that direction, you can diminish the working day as much as you want to, you have to change his motivation, you have to give him something else that he really believes in and since the classical so-called values which everybody accepted, nobody, when I was young boy in Austria, Hungary, if ever questioned that you could be illoyal to the Emperor, it was an accepted fact and loyalty to the Crown from the British Crown to the Mikado was one of those values that gave you direction a port of destination.

E:

... You won't want to restore them, do you...

F:

We gradually took .. (INAUDIBLE) .. away scientifically because gradually science managed to show that none of these ports of destination that were taught on the basis of what I would call an infallible authority, that may be a divinity, or a ruler or a sage or a philosopher can be scientifically proved. Now I think that the laws of nature have never been questioned by the most revolutionary hippies. Water boils at 100 degrees Centigrade, there is nothing to be done about it and I know of no revolutionary spirit who would go against that. Well the biological law such as the law of defence, hormone reactions to defence, nervous reactions to defence which are undoubtedly true. If you get very excited you will make more adrenalin, your pulse will go up and your heartbeat will go up because you are ready to fight and even if a fight does not ensue, if .. (INAUDIBLE) .. arterio sclerosis, and high cholesterol and .. a slightly high blood pressure like I have, you may collapse of a heart attack right then and there or a brain haemorrhage, who killed you. If you get that way meeting a drunk who insults you, the drunk didn't even touch you, it's biological suicide. Now can one, and I have no answer, make these laws practical. I mean the basis of two children education because I think that there is a great misunderstanding between law, in your sense of the word and law in the biological sense of the word. Whatever is called law in, in, in a religion or in a political code is telling you what to do and what not to do. The laws of nature perhaps are a misnomer. Perhaps they shouldn't call the law of nature but what is called the law of nature is not prescripted, it is descriptive. If a physicist has discovered that water boils at 100 degrees he isn't, he isn't one who has cumulated such power, political or economic that he can force it to do it. It just does. Nature does not wish. We must never forget that God may wish. Man certainly wishes. But nature does. Now I think it we can adopt our, that attitude, we .. (INAUDIBLE) .. the code of behaviour which is in perfect harmony with natural laws and that's what I call the

5.

F: ... altruistic egoism because we are naturally egoists you can't deny that because from the most primitive animals to the most ... shall I continue or shall I stop because I don't want to monopolise the show but ...

H: You carry on ...

A.M: What I was going to ...

F: Cut in here, that's the best thing ...

A.M: What I was going to suggest is that we, I mean, you brought up a very important point which is how, how one changes the code of behaviour and presumably that must start with education and I mean the formal education, is that right ...

F: Well we could stop here and go over to what I call altruistic egoism because that is a suggestion that I've put forth in writings and it seems to have been adopted by various groups and show that there is a way of marrying natural egoism and natural feelings that men unlike animals should also be of some good to somebody.

A.M: If we can then go on to say well how, how one formalises that, I mean how do you, how do you work that ...

H: I think one of the problems of the modern world has been the use of the school as the great alibi ...

INAUDIBLE - general discussion.

F: ... you have to say these things otherwise they're just meaningless platitudes and yet I, I don't think that I, I should talk that long. Perhaps if one could intersperse it ...

THE AGE OF UNCERTAINTY
TAPE ROLL VB3
Shot 39/1

1.

INAUDIBLE

F:
And, I mean pollution, if you take mercury pollution in
Japan, that is such an obvious example of crippling
disease due to pollution that you cannot deny it but
I look at that from an entirely different point of view
and that's what made me feel a little bit like a fish
out of water among you people who are experts in, in, in
the sociological and economic things but I, because I
don't see the solution here.

J:
Some forms of pollution were much worse a hundred, a
hundred and fifty years ago than they are today but
Manchester and England at the time that Engels visited
it was far worse than any industrial city today. New
York City and London and San Diego were more, had a
greater density of population ...

H: The sweat shops ...

J:
... greater crime rates. I mean New York City was more
dangerous a hundred years ago than it is today. It was
more overcrowded than a hundred years ago in proportion
to relationship to its population density. So there,
there is a kind of modulation of the, of the, these
threats all the time ...

INAUDIBLE

J:
... is not an argument for letting them sell themselves
I may add. But it, it, it, it is an argument against
supposing there is this kind of irresistible rising
tide on, on all fronts.

A.M:
... (INAUDIBLE) ... in New York ... (INAUDIBLE) ...
theorises that in fact stress diseases and/or cancer ...
(INAUDIBLE) ... that, that these are mutational factors
and that they should be treated as such ...

THE AGE OF UNCERTAINTY
TAPE ROLL VB3
Shot 40/1

1.

A.M: Well not I mean, what, specifically what he's doing, he, he's, he works on cancer, cancer causing agents, viruses and his point is that there's an evolution, a much slower evolutionary cycle in, in ... evolution than there is in, in macroscopic evolution and with that tropical, the major mechanism in this is the virus.

? Is the virus.

A.M: Yes. Or the viruses. And that if you, if you take that argument, if you develop that argument what you're saying is that molecular evolution is going on at the same time as macroscopic evolution and that therefore cancer causing agents such as viruses are, should be acceptable as such, they're just mechanisms and there's nothing much we can do about it. There's no defence, it is just like a, one of Darwin's finches, adapting a long beak.

F: No, I think that I would agree with Mr. (J) as I did, because it's exactly the same as what I said about, about is this a period where stress is very act, very important. I think there was just as much pollution in previous periods and in other places, but it was of another kind. On the other hand one cannot accept and I don't think anybody states, that mercury poison plays a very important role in carcinogenesis, actually I'm not an expert on that so I'd rather not discuss it but it does, but the fact that now, mercury poisoning especially in parts of Japan, also unfortunately in Canada where it poisons lakes and fishes, is a very important thing and if you avoid it it disappears so that there is no question whatever that it is not only due to mutation that were sensitivity to mercury ...

E: But are you saying that there must be no major change at all in the last hundred years ?..

F: In what ?..

E: In the conditions under which men live, in the developed world.

F: Oh, I think there is a constant difference but I don't think that the total amount of either stress, or as you pointed out, the pollution, or crowding or so on, has really changed very much because it depends upon motivation.

H: Human awareness of the, some of these things has changed.

F: Yes. Take for example a very interesting article which I read in 'Science' recently about the (INAUDIBLE).. tribe in Africa. I don't know whether you saw that but it's an amazing article. They have enormous lands to their

THE AGE OF UNCERTAINTY
TAPE ROLL VB3
Shot 40/1 CONT.

2.

F: ... disposal but they all congregate together in very little groups of tents where you can hand things over from one tent to the other, out of sheer preference. So crowding is not necessarily bad for you, to resent crowding is very bad for you and that is a biological phenomena.

A.M: Could I just go, go back to a lead that we started which was changing the motivation, presumably you're one's talking about behavioural codes and, and so on and I mean would it be true to say that formal education must be changed. I mean (J) ..

J: Well, I think that the role of formal education in shaping people in society has been much exaggerated and I think that this, all together too much has been saddled on the schools and the schools have become the great alibi for the breakdown of the other institutions of society. The family is no longer performing what its function had been at one point the church is no longer doing it, the end of the apprenticeships system and things like that have meant that the problem of entry into the economic world is a much more impersonal thing, and as these other institutions ... have broken down, the other, I hate the terminology but the sociologists call the agencies of socialization or whatever, it's all been dumped off from the schools and the school has become the great alibi for everyone, for everyone else, for everyone outside the schools ...

A.M: Who is everyone outside the schools..?

J: ... the people who aren't teachers and students. They blame their own, those who are in the educational system regard as a failure of the other institutions, are all described by the others to have ... a failure of the schools. I've been a student and I've been a teacher and I know how resistant students are and how ineffectual teachers are and the notion that schools by themselves perform a lever to change the system is, is wrong, partly because their capacity to effect deeper motivation is limited and partly because their reflections of the system of which, which they're in, in, endeavouring to change.

A.M: Where then, how does one isolate the, the, the leaders, how does one define where the leaders are at any time in history .. for a change in code of behaviour?

J:

Well, I think the changes obviously come about in codes of behaviour and they come about in a way which is a peculiar amalgamation of, for example we've had changes in, in the value systems so to speak, in the United States, some of them changes in terms of ideology, so to speak, the change from a resolutely isolationist nation to a nation, internationalist nation, even eventually to a promiscuously interventionalist, global nation. We've had a change from a society based on white supremacy to a society dedicated nominally at least to a multi-racial society. A society based on masculine supremacy to one based nominally at least on the devoted heading towards the, the equality of the races from a very puritanical society where books were burned on Boston Common fifty years to a society where there appears to be no limits on the semination of pornography. Such changes take place. I think the educational system has very little to do with it. Most fundamentally I suppose we change in a .. (INAUDIBLE) .. nation which was shaped by Calvinism which .. had the, had the puritan ethic predominating. An ethic of discipline, work, responsibility, into a nation which for various reasons has become essentially, or predominantly hedonistic, where self-gratification becomes much more important. Now that you can trace to quite different things. On one hand you can trace it to the rise of the consumer society, where the, the emphasis is on, is on the creation .. and gratification of the wants. And on the other hand you can trace it to the counter culture -- the counter culture in the consumer, which is deeply opposed to the consumer society but both of them are alike, they're allies in the, in the new hedonism.

E:

I think it's, it's problem solving, is it not? I mean the, this Calvinism point is fascinating because what has actually happened is that in the early phases of Capitalist industrialism it was actually necessary to save and to have this pattern of, of defying gratification of saving today in order to have greater possibilities tomorrow, for the individual. And of amassing capital, investing it, having growth and so on and so forth and you could argue you know that a developed capitalist society can survive only if it abandons Calvinism, adopts hedonism, in other words in order to solve the same problem of keeping industry going, you need, you need a different approach, you need a different set of values. I, I agree with this point, I mean I entirely agree that it's not the educational institutions which changed society and I think the worst possible answer which one can give to problems is to say, well the schools will have to change their approach, and we'll have to educate children differently, impossible, misleading and in a sense, dangerous, in a sense dangerous because ...

4.

J: So you'd suggest not making radical changes.

E: I, I'm all for.. I'm not. I would suggest not making radical changes in the educational system and, and assuming by doing that, one has actually changed society, which one has not, I, I entirely agree on this alibi point where as I do think that in solving some of our problems we will have to make a few changes. I happen to think that ..

J: Like -- like what ..

E: I'll give you an example then, it's, it's one which is, on our agenda it's very closely related to what we said. I happen to think that there have been fundamental changes in the social texture of advanced societies by comparison to history and one of these fundamental changes in my view is what I would call modernity, that is the fact which Dr. (F) mentioned earlier that people in the advanced societies are no longer governed by their family, by their place of residence, by groups into which they are born, by groups which define their destination. I rather like this phrase that you cannot have favourable winds unless you know your destination, unless you know where you're going because you can't know what is favourable and what is unfavourable and one of the great developments very closely associated with industrialisation and the industrial world, is that people have to make their own choices. They're sort of set free which in a sense is a tremendous revolution of liberalisation of which also leads to all the problems of, of this kind of freedom. That is to the absence of a sense of destination defined by others to people who are sort of, who don't quite know where they're going. And this in my view has a lot to do with the law and order problem. ... And to answer your question whether there have to be changes, I would argue that we've reached a point in a number of industrial countries in which, in the absence of a sense of destination, there is a serious possibility of a reversal to historical forms of controlling people. That is, I see a very great danger of a return, if you pardon my saying that, to an artificial version of the old loyalty to enforced loyalties to unit, which don't actually mean very much to the individual and I see a very great danger of a return to, to what is sometimes called law and order that is, a sense of formal and external and discipline rather than believed discipline and - well we don't, I mean let's carry on the conversation whether they've filmed or not - and I really believe that this is one of the problems which our societies will have to solve, which they won't necessarily solve but which they will have to solve. Where the danger of Fascism as far as I'm concerned, continues to be great, but where there should be a possibility - but I don't know - you call it what, altruistic egoism, I mean I don't believe that you can actually find natural laws which govern social relations, I think social relations are in some sense always made, man made, now you may in-

5.

E: ... include that in your, in your term of natural law but I think unless we define methods of human cooperation which are convincing to those who take part in it and at the same time give a sense of destination, we are almost bound to return to much less pleasant ways of, of organising society.

H: On the same theme as, as a teacher can you see, can you see yourself trimming your sales and are you teaching in any different way, are you, are you bearing down harder than you were?

E: But I'm not, you know I'm a director of the London School of Economics and not teaching but watching others teach, but I don't think there's a lot of that yet, but there certainly is some indication that that is what people would like to do and I know of examples where the permissive school, if that's the word, has been replaced by, or is beginning to be replaced by the disciplined school again, with no particular sense of direction built into the discipline, no particular sense of direction and this is what we're talking about ....

END TAPE ROLL VB3

THE A OF UNCERTAINTY
TAPE ROLL VB4
Shot 42/1

J:
I agree with (E) ... I think that what industrial society has been, has been to undermine the traditional and spontaneous, natural, organic forms of cohesion and as these have been undermined, nothing has arisen, to take its place. Therefore you get these kind of tribalistic or relig..., quasi-religious movements like fascism and communism which has tried to produce ... an artificial cohesion though main force and democratic society has not yet established a substitute for it, even in the most favourable attempt. I suppose to try to do that which is in a small country with high pro-capita income, that is Sweden. Sweden cannot be said that all its sort of external advantages, of rationality and welfare and all that, cannot be said to be a thoroughly fulfilling society, at least, not at least for Ingmar Bergman ....

F:
Well I think we have all agreed now that it shouldn't be done by enforced major changes in the formal instruction. That isn't getting us anywhere and I think there seems to be certain agreement, also that we have to have some other values to, to, to captivate our need for an outlet, for our energy, give ... give us back our stress level. Well I think the whole, that everybody has his own stress level. A race horse has to race, and a turtle shouldn't be forced to race that fast, just as much as if you prevent a race horse from racing as much as a turtle, you, you kill it too. I'm using biological examples because that's my, my field. But I think that this new thing of as (J) said of, to replace the old values with something can only be done by creating a climate in which incidentally the media I think could do an awful lot. A climate that naturally wants to have something else and the something else that I would suggest, on the basis of purely biological evidence, is to find an egoistic way because we will be egoists - that's how we were born. Every animal from the lowest to the highest is looking out for its own first and it's natural for a fish to eat, for a big fish to eat little fish, because he was made that way, you can't blame him or punish him for it. But we are not fish and in addition to the egoistic tendency also to have certain altruistic tendencies and we get, we get feelings of inner conflict ... (INAUDIBLE) ... not what I call the code of altruistic egoism in which we seek our satisfaction not in the accumulation of power, not in the accumulation of money, or the approval of any superior being, but in being useful to others in acquiring the good will of others. Which comes very close back to the Bible although it is not a religious code.

J:
If Christianity had only worked we wouldn't have had your problem.

THE AGENDA OF UNCERTAINTY
TAPE ROLL VB4
Shot 42/1 CONT.

F: That's right but it comes very close, but is very different. That is to say it's love thy neighbour as thyself, which I think is impossible. You cannot love (INAUDIBLE) .... their neighbours love means make yourself useful. Who wants to destroy somebody who is fanatically egoistic about acquiring indis-pensability.

A.M.: This is, I mean it's all very fine as it were to say that. But isn't it, is it that history is cyclical and that in fact there are many discussions of this nature at, at various times in history. Everybody says we should do this or we should change to this and in fact it's not that discussion or, or any thoughts of that that acts as leader. I mean, is, are we at a stage where a new departure has to be taken and how does that de-parture, you know, what's the key to it. Do you see what I mean?

E: Problems. Actual problems. I mean not things that we think up but the fact that we are faced with certain problems in, in our society ...

J: Necessities ...

E: ... necessities. Inflation, continuing inflation for instance, is a problem which has to be solved somehow and it's a problem which tells you a story about society and we can only solve it at changing levels of expectation for example. I mean this is, this is the kind of problem which changes values and there are others.

A.M.: Do you start that in the family, do you start a change of...

E: I think one social institution in which it is started is in fact the family, yes, that is I've seen recent studies. I don't know how, what to make of it, I don't particularly trust survey research to that extent but I've seen studies in some European countries which seem to indicate that families are changing their own projections, their own expectations of what they'll be able to do over a period of time and they no longer conceive of a family life of one of continuing economic growth, but of one which a sense of husbandry plays a greater part, but it's not only the family.

H: I think another problem, another necessity, is this issue that we began on at the environment. I find, find myself very uncomfortable with the thought that we've left here, a few minutes ago that we, that we had just as much overcrowding and just as much pollution a hundred years ago in Manchester and those places...... I just don't think that's true. I, I think there, there are many more cities in the world that are vastly more overcrowded, there's much more poverty and, and filth and disaster....

THE AGEN OF UNCERTAINTY
TAPE ROLL VB4
Shot 42/1 CONT.

J: Well it all depends .. (INAUDIBLE) .. there are many
more poor people because the population of the world
has increased, but I (INAUDIBLE) .. to say that in 1876,
there was in proportion less poverty in the world.

H: But this proportion, is that a fair measure of, of ....

J: Well just for the purposes of .. (INAUDIBLE) ...
This is, this statistically the case. It was more
densely crowded, more people lived in, in a square mile
of New York City in 1876 than in 1976 ...

H: Well, a hundred years ago I don't think New York was faced
with financial disaster, bankruptcy, which is a small
measure of, of the sickness of that particular city.

J: That's because, I don't know whether it's the measure
of the sickness then or the measure of now or the sickness
then. It was because in New York in 1876 did not have
the sense of responsibility for the poor and jobless and
unemployable and so on ...

E: Don't you think there's this one difference that both the
nuclear and the environmental threat potentially threaten
the whole of mankind today which they did not do a hundred
years ago. That is ... a change in dimension .. which I
thought that's, that's what you were getting at.

H: Yes, yes, no I agree on that. I don't mean to minimise
but I do think we, that in some ways we, we have, for
example I really have certain misgivings about the title,
overall title of this series, 'The Age of Uncertainty', as
implying that we, that suddenly certitude was having, you
look at the Victorian age, now underneath the, that kind
of artificial era of self-confidence, that was the age of
deep and demoralising uncertainty. That was the age the,
that abandoned the belief in God for example. And the
age which began to abandon the belief in democracy. Look
at, to take In Memoriam, Tennyson's In Memoriam, or
Whitman's Democratic Vistas, you can see the doubt, the
penetrations of doubt. The very great uncertainty. So
I think uncertainty, like stress, is a constant in, in
human history.

A.M.: I mean is it that we, that we describe pollution, that we
describe things in the environment which we call pollution,
we describe problems of law and order and so on, and all
we're describing really is the natural evolution and that
maybe our, our standards of what is good and what is right,
and what is suitable.

THE AGE OF UNCERTAINTY
TAPE ROLL VB4
Shot 42/1 CONT.

J:

I think there is no such thing, if by a natural evolution you mean something that was inevitable, pre-destined, beyond human control, I think that's bad state of mind to get into because that, then you accept everything. I think they .. (INAUDIBLE) .. evolution with its implication of progress is .... where historians at/tend to recoil from these today. I do think that, that things change and according to one's standards for, for the better, for the worse but ... it's a whole balance between what you can do something about and what you have to accept is very problematic, I think that the .. (INAUDIBLE) .. in the last. The conclusion of democracy in America said the individual is, is, lives within a circle. An iron circle is drawn around him beyond which he is paralysed but within which he's powerful and free. There's something like that, there is some area of, of, where human decisions can affect people's lives.

THE AGE OF UNCERTAINTY
TAPE ROLL VB4

Shot 44/1

1.

E:

Well one of the obvious points is to identify the problems which our society is in and I'm now talking about, the industrially developed side is the OECD countries if that's the way to put it, that is the member countries of the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development, which these countries face. And I've just mentioned inflation, let me just mention another one and then talk about some of the answers. It seems quite evident to many economists, it may or may not be true but let me assume for a moment that it will be, that we're going to be faced with a curious problem of unemployment for some time to come, perhaps with two problems of unemployment. One is the sort of structural unemployment of adults but the other one which I'm interested in, which I want to talk about for a moment is the difficulty of finding jobs for young people leaving school. Now this in my view is one of the major socio-economic problems with which our societies are faced. And we haven't really found an appropriate answer. Now I would like to take this as one illustration of the kind of answer which I regard as possible, and that is, it seems to me that one of the shortcomings of traditional industrial societies, is their inability to be imaginative in the way in which human lives are constructed. We are thinking of education and work and leisure and old age and retirement as if they were sort of mechanical boxes. And if somehow these boxes don't fit at one point, as they don't seem to between education and jobs at the moment, then we have a gap and we don't quite know what to do about it. Now my view is to take this particular problem but one of the answers is to reconstruct the boxes, as it were, or perhaps forget about the boxes and think of human life in, in a different way. Think of it in one context, think it as one continuing process. And the answer to that, to be more specific, is that in my view, there should be a much closer integration of education and work. And by a closer integration of education and work, I mean that perhaps more young people should be given a chance to learn a trade early on and fewer should go on with their education early on, but more older people should be given a chance to return to educational institutions. Educational institutions should be there as something which is part of people's lives throughout and a reorganisation both of the ....

J:

Reorganisation is absolutely vital.

E:

It seems to me that the reorganisation both of the job and education side is one of the institutional answers which will undoubtedly have affects on values, will both imply and pre-suppose a change in values. And it's that kind of thing which I have in mind when I talk about the problems we are faced with.

THE AGL... UNCERTAINTY
TAPE ROLL VB4
Shot 44/1 CONT.

2

J:
I would add one other problem which is not common to all
industrial societies, except one form or another it's
getting to be and that's racial justice. And they've,
which the United States is, has, it's our gravest problem,
it's getting to be a problem in, in England, in, in the
form of foreign workers. It's a problem throughout, or
has been a problem throughout the common market. I guess
they're tending to go home now but I think that too is
something which just as, .. our, our standards of justice
are such that we can no longer explain to ourselves the
the segregation and the exploitation of people for racial
reasons. And as, as we try to make that problem, try to
meet that range of problems, it's going to confirm changes
in values.

H:
Can I add a thought to the, this, your, your boxes, and
trying to think positively a little bit. I think curiously
there's a little hope in, in, in a shorter work week than
we've had for young kids. I think it's as soon as we do
make respectable, being a plumber or a, or a cop or that,
I can see a plumber makes more than a teacher, there's no
question about that. I think it's great, but, but I can
see quite a satisfactory life for these unemployed
children of ours, if they work three days, if they have
two jobs. They work three days, four days a week as a,
as a plumber and the other two or three days they are
involved in their do-good work in saving, in saving the
community and being a road commissioner of the community
they live in, or being involved in a foreign policy problem
or what **have** you but, but a really quite .... define in
relatively shop terms the, the respectability of making
your money half the week and helping improve society the
other half the week. And I, I, it's been on my mind for
a long time that, that, that's something that could come.

A.M.:
...... What you were talking about just now Mr. (E) , I
mean is there any, is there any parallel in say the
Japanese system which, where you have the company town, the
company school, the company this, that in some way that
begins to look like the sort of society you're talking
about where education and work are one and the same thing.

E:
No, not really. But that's not really what I have in
mind. I don't, I don't know whether there is a
Japanese system and if there is I don't know enough about
it. I think there's some industrial societies which are
rather backward in their development and I would say the,
the so-called socialist countries of Eastern Europe are
simply backward societies which have a long way to go, a
much longer way than, than the rest of us. Perhaps Japan
is in a somewhat earlier period. No, the real problem
... is by Sweden and I appreciate a comment made by
Mr. (J) earlier, earlier about Sweden, I'm quite sure
he's right. That Sweden has not found means of fulfilment,
as I think he put it, which are infinitely superior to
those of other societies. Although in some respects

THE AGGREGATION OF UNCERTAINTY
TAPE ROLL VB4
Shot 44/1 CONT.

E:
..Sweden has done quite well. But I would certainly not regard as a sort of, picture of horror, of what we should avoid at all costs. On the contrary I think it requires a very close look, it deserves a very close look. Japan to my mind is most likely to solve some of the, some of the problems which I notice in the United States and Canada and in most European countries. I would expect the solutions to come from these countries rather than Japan. In other words, I do not think, I am not thinking of a society to be more specific, which is totally organised around work. Which is really what is happening in the socialist countries where people are sort of pressed to work, where productivity is the one and main purpose, where the whole society is organised around work. And often you're not rewarded for it, you have to work an extra day for national glory and so on and so forth. And I think Japan, to some extent, is still organised around work. That's not what I have in mind, I'm much closer to your notion, although I would accept two paid jobs as well as one paid job and one for the community. I don't think one should separate as clearly between a job, a paying job or a paid job and one which is idealistic.

H: I'm not so sure you can get two paid jobs in a ...

E: There's a lot of work to do in our, in our societies which is not done and we all know that it isn't done and it could be done. That again is in parts, a question of these mechanical or the mechanical ways which we think of society.

H: I think we reach agreement on that easy enough.

A.M.:
Is there, is it ever going to be achieved though, with a,
with a fixed attitude of, of management and a fixed
attitude of unions on the other, on the other side of
demarcations and the like.

H:
I have a hunch it's, first has to come the shorter work
week of which I'm not necessarily advocating at the very
moment, but I, I think it's inevitably that you are going
to have a four day work week before too long, don't you.
And I think you proceed from there ... and I think when
you get ... the unions, the union problem is not going to
be an overwhelming one.

A.M.:
But you mean you could actually be a plumber and a
teacher. You could be a, a, a carpenter and a, a gardener?

H:
I've got some doubts about that. I'm, I guess the reason
I'm thinking in terms of, of making enough money in those
four days as a plumber to survive, doing a, doing a thing
possibly in an unpaid way.

THE AGENCE OF UNCERTAINTY
TAPE ROLL VB4
Shot 44/1 CONT.

E:

It's a pity that Mr. (D) is not, is not with us at the moment. He has views about this and you know, he for instance thinks of things like community workshops. Now that's a mixture between the things the two of us said. Where people should work outside their ordinary working hours but should have a chance to work outside, including garages and, I don't know, house building and house repair and decorating workshops and so on and so forth. So, there would be ways, and since he is a prominent unionist, but it's really for him to talk about this and not for me.

INTERRUPTED (D.K.)

A.M.:

But we're still, you see we're still trying to find the, I mean you're talking about the mechanics of, of this have they, are they deeply intertwined with the motivation?

F:

That's what I would like to hear about.

A.M.:

So would I ..

E:

Why, why hear about it, why, why not say something ...

J:

You see we're trying desperately to be, to be positive ...

END TAPE ROLL VB4

THE AGE OF UNCERTAINTY
TAPE ROLL VB5
SHOT 46/1

1.

AM: But people will get more satisfaction and will do other jobs.

D: Well, I think that ... there is a need for a shorter working week, mainly for technological reasons. You know the fact is we can produce more with less people than if we keep on doing that, then we'll reach a stage unless we reduce working hours and the elite at work and the mass out of work, and that's, that would not be tolerable. If you say a shorter working week in order that people can do more moonlighting, then, then at's kind of productive, unless of course, you go back to William Morris. William Morris I think gave the idea or portrayed the idea of people might work a day or two in a factory and a day or two on a farm or that sort of projection which has a lot to commend it ... I think we are some way from that ... but at this stage certainly, we feel very closely how far we can tolerate a technological unemployment problem, see we can get down, we can get down by virtue of growth and the rest, the level of unemployment and I think we will next year with our exports improving but, and unemployment will reduce but there will still be a technical problem to do with the technological construction changes. For the rest, I think motivation, enjoyment and so on, you were talking over at the other group there on that subject and there is a lot to be said for building in to the initial period of schooling, you know the secondary modern school or the first school, at least a year of education related to trade training, related to a basic understanding of engineering and electrical skills, because this excites people then to look at new vistas when they leave school and go to work, they may want to go into a given job and then say, oh I'd like to go to another job or indeed in the process of change because demand for different skills is extending, it's good for people to have a smattering at at least of the idea of another occupation and then go into it for further training later on.

AM: I think you would have the trade unions as a whole got this
got this sort of thing in mind.

D: Unions certainly are increasingly accepting of building in some trade training as part of schooling, I think it would only need a bit of government effort and general backing from the educational profession to, to really get that thing moving and it wouldn't cost a lot and it could be done fairly easily..... In terms of the shorter working week, again, this is now increasingly trade union policy but we in Britain recognise you just can't move in Britain alone. I've done a lot to get the European unions around to this idea that we must have a concerted movement throughout Europe to reduce the working week.

THE AGE OF UNCERTAINTY
TAPE ROLL BV5
SHOT 46/1 CONTD.

2.

J: But kind of a time frame do you have on reducing it, what are you talking about reducing it to? Four days?

D: By and large reducing it to thirty-five hours, I would say, and I would think we ought to be able to do it in a few years' time.

J: Thirty-five hours - is that over four days?

D: Incidentally, the reason for that is not just as simple as it sounds. It's not just moving from forty hours to thirty-five hours, it's to reduce the actual time worked, you know it's a fact of life that where there has been a reduction of the normal working week, the actual working hours have gone down and if you take Britain at the moment, the average overtime worked by manual workers is eight hours a week, so that's, so that's ... on forty, so if you like an average of forty-eight hours a week. If you reduce the normal working week at thirty-five and you still have eight hours overtime, you would do a great deal to providing more jobs, and in the process increasing efficiency ...

E: What do you think people could do outside their main job, I mean that is one of the problems isn't it, one of several, that is when one talks of the reduction of the working day, one must have something in mind for what people are doing ...

D: Well, of course, you've got to extend leisure opportunities but those leisure opportunities can, of course, be active and they can include some do-it-yourself, I mean no-one is going to stop that process ... indeed it would be a very good thing if more and more ordinary fold could do essential repairs around a motor car for example, understand what's wrong. These are things which should be encouraged. This is part of the way of life, but I don't exclude either the great opportunities for art that ought to exist, for working people, after all, a lot of things which professional groupings, highly educated people appreciate as normal, the appreciation of plays, of music, painting and so on, it passes over the head of millions of ordinary people, of working people. Frankly I know little about art. I've hardly ever seen a play and so on and I am typical in that sense of lots of working men and women so that we've got to encourage at the educational stage this appreciation which would make life much more worthwhile.

E: I suppose the other point is really how does one see to it that the educational institutions are open for people who come back after a few years in jobs and how does one make it possible for people to leave their jobs for periods

THE AGE OF UNCERTAINTY
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SHOT 46/1 CONTD.

3.

of time, I won't specify at the moment, they may be relatively short or longer without losing their career opportunities and you know, without losing their job in fact. Would you think that is a legitimate part of union/management negotiations?

D: It is a legitimate part and to a degree, it's dealt with in other words where you get a young fellow or young woman for that matter, wanting say to go off and do a course, say, at the London School of Economics, as you well know, and Ruskin College, the Colleges of Further Education. Normally we would negotiate with an employer that that person would be allowed to return to the job. It's the job, the pay would remain pretty well, we can do it to a degree at the moment but, of course, the numbers are limited of people who take those, those opportunities. But we have to expand that whole area of further education opportunities and maybe beyond just the sort of courses at the London School of Economics and Ruskin College.

H: We've built into the Newspaper Guild, which is a rather vigorous union in this country, we've legitimised leaves of absence, I think every , you have to work five years before ....

D: What education?

H: For education, a year off to broaden yourself and I don't see any reason why it should be limited to our craft.

D: Well, I agree it shouldn't be limited. I think it will take us a long time to get there as a general thing, but we should work towards it, there's a better understanding about at the moment. We, of course, in Britain agree to build a lot more colleges, a lot more educational centres for this sort of purpose.

AM: Couldn't you do it on the factory floor? I mean, if, isn't there a way of using the geography and the buildings that are there now, to bring the two together, something 'E' was hinting at.

D: To a degree, yes, to a degree. You mean in the factories themselves there should be places where people can, can do evening classes and so on, yes, as of now, of course, there is a great deal of leisure activity in many of the modern factories - clubs, including photography and fishing and football and tennis and so on. That certainly should be encouraged because the more you drive the working hours the more need for leisure. Let's face it, it doesn't only apply to people at work, we are still failing to meet

4.

the needs of the elderly, you know in providing good educational and leisure centres for the elderly and preferably where they mix with younger active people, so they don't feel isolated, they don't feel they're confined to just meeting other elderly people.

AM: Can this only happen though, under the massive planning system of socialism? Can it happen say in a basically free enterprise country like the United States?

D: Being no expert on the United States, I would say in Britain, where you have a mixed economy, I would say it could happen. It requires planning, it requires pressure and push, but I would regard what we are talking about as part of the social wage, which I think must be increasingly part of the sort of political platform of parties, they must be prepared to join with representative forces like the trade unions in dealing with these things.

DK: Could I ask you a question? Aren't all these things panaceas because work is still basically boring for 99 per cent of people?

D: You may say panaceas, but the, it's a question of how you equate life values. Certainly, we have got to have bread to eat, we have got to have clothes to wear, we have got to have houses to live in and all the other essential things which need to be produced, need to be serviced, some of the servicing can be very obnoxious, like refuse collecting, for example, but it's simply got to be done. You reduce the amount of time by the most modern means you can, you can apply the techniques to make a lot of difficult and obnoxious jobs easy and simplified and maybe not involving very much human labour but there will be some human labour in an oil refinery, or in a petrol-chemical plant and so on, and therefore you've got to provide for that, but surely society then, organised society in which we participate, must seek to provide good opportunities for living and scope for enjoyment of life, but enjoyment of life surely doesn't mean watching television all the time or, although I like soccer, I don't think you'd want to watch soccer every day of the week.

(INTERRUPTIONS)

E: You know, I don't know, work is certainly not boring for 99 per cent.

(INTERRUPTIONS)

E: Certainly not, not even for 99 per cent of Mr. 'D's members.

And that must be one of the most difficult.

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SHOT 47/1

6.

E: I'm sure is not boring for 99 per cent of the people, it may be boring for 30 or 35 per cent of the people, that's the order of magnitude I would think of, and there I believe one can do a lot to make it less boring.

D: I think that's right, it doesn't follow that working even a repetitious job is boring if you are able to converse with your neighbour, if there is a degree of conversation and chatting and joking with each other, but you see the more you modernise methods of production, the more you try to eliminate the labour element, often the more isolated the job becomes, so that, for example, in a modern petrol-chemical plant you will get one or two people watching an instrument panel in the control room. That can be highly boring, they're required to be there all the time but they lack the friendship and conversation that in another type of job might be available, so you can enjoy work in many cases. The real problem often is getting work, getting enough work.

AM: Can I ask you a very simple question, and that is if one achieves all this, who's going to pay, how are we going to get the money to actually pay for these social benefits?

D: Well, of course, society pays as a whole, but in terms of the social wage, I think we have to clearly place some responsibility upon employers of labour, those who operate in industry in allocating the surpluses so that the social wage is accepted as a charge upon industry. You see in Britain, as an example, we have tended to raise the wherewithal to pay our old age pensioners largely from taxation rather than making it a charge upon the employer. In Germany I think I'm right, it's very directly a charge upon the employer who pays through National Insurance, I think to get the appreciation right, I believe we have got to follow the Germans in that particular case, but certainly it comes out of what we are able to produce, what we are able to do in industry. All these things have to be earned.

AM: And yet I hear of firms, large corporations, talking about a one per cent profit margin - is that true, I mean are profit margins much higher, is there enough money to ,,...

D: You mean during the recent period the profit margins have been down, then I'm talking about two per cent and they are going up, of course. Indeed you probably know in the relaxation of the price code in Britain, there's going to be quite a substantial addition to profitability, but we are talking of an exceptional period. We have this unco-ordinated bout of fewer price increases due to the operations of the oil countries and we had bad harvests

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7.

in various countries, all contributing to a world recession, but in general, the fact is that if we are going to have contented community and a community that isn't just only concerned about work, then you must provide, intend to provide a fuller life.

E: In fact, profit margins are up in quite a few countries, and the interesting fact is that these profits are not invested, at least not to the extent that one would expect them to be, which seems to show that there is a sort of uncertainty about what to do, which should be a very good opportunity for some changes.

H: I'm not quite sure where the social course are you are talking about, the obvious ones of a short work-week - I don't know where they are, what social course are we talking about?

D: Social costs could include higher pensions for old age people, I mean you do fairly well I think in the States, but we do badly in Britain for example, it might include ultimately higher educational charges, if you're going to build in the sort of thing we were talking about, greater - greater training for young people ....

E: The cost of change is greater than the ultimate cost of a new arrangement. It is the changeover which is generally costly, that is one of the great experiences certainly of my life, that even reforms which are designed ultimately to get more out of every pound or every dollar are expensive in the first place when you do it, when you change educational institutions, when you make different arrangements in jobs, when you change the systems of pensions, that is actually costly and requires a relatively favourable period of economic development.

AM: And does that mean that the leverage for this sort of change must always come from the unions as opposed to from the political sector.

D: Oh, I think comes from various sources, sometimes enlightened employers can take the lead but that's few and far between, in the main ... In the main, enlightened trade unions have a voice in this. They make representations progressive and farseeing politicians can do a very great deal in all these things but when we are talking for example about improving our training, as part of the education process and then beyond the education process, this is something for the entire community, it ultimately affects the public well outside of either the trade unions or the employers or government, the public in general will benefit by having a more skilfull labour force and the world itself could very well do with more

the
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8.

people who've got basic skills and travel abroad and assist in the underdeveloped countries for example. There's a lot of things that can be done, a lot of enjoyment of life I believe could be secured if we can improve the basic training skills of young people. After all, a lot of their vandalism and irresponsibility of youth arises because they've really lost an interest or haven't developed an interest in wider living.

E: The boredom of leisure can be greater than the boredom of work. Very much so.

AM: So what specific things then would you suggest have to be done as far as leisure is concerned? I mean you know we've talked a little about, you've talked specifically about what happens on the shop floor as it were, and with management and unions and so on, but what, first of all, where does the leverage come from for this change and then ....

D: I could give you a whole programme.

AM: Well do, we have the time, we have the time.

D: Well frankly, leaving aside the training aspect that I was talking about, I feel that our local authorities and our governments have got a great deal to do in terms of creating more and more leisure centres where people can freely move and they can take part in arts classes, in sporting activities, more swimming pools, young people particularly, the opportunities in many of our big industrial towns are lacking in terms of elementary sports facilities, but sport in itself is not sufficient, we've really got to make the arts interesting, as I said earlier and participating arts, if you encourage that at the school stage and then you provide the facilities which are lacking, I think a lot of young people would, would find an enjoyment in that and would participate but there is in fact not these centres, so you start there looking at what can be done and in my view if a lot of our local counsellors could be more imaginative in that field, and members of Parliament, think less of building new town halls and more of doing this sort of thing, it - the community itself would begin to take a real interest in what might be regarding as political activity. This is what political activity should be about, providing a good community existence.

DK: Could I ask 'J' to come in here. You see a lot of young people and a lot of students and they have on the whole fine facilities and yet so many of these young people who have all these fine facilities - sport and everything

9.

else - seem to care less, seem to have less motivation
than others who don't.

J: That's why I feel the whole problem of education has to be recast, I think we're still trapped by the conventional categories of life, childhood, adolescence, and so on. We suppose education is something that's completed at twenty-two and higher education fits in the eighteen to twenty-two year old lots. Ridiculous, it's now clear that many people aren't ready for higher education at that stage. they feel it themselves, that's why there has been so much tendency in the colleges for people who could and in another time would have borne the intellecutal load that you feel in one way or another, this isn't the time for them to do this, so they go off, they travel, they take a job. I think far from this being regarded as a kind of aberration or failure, seems to be taking place in such a large scale that it's a perfectly natural response and I think that if education, higher education I'm speaking of particularly. I think obviously that everyone has to be trained much better than they're being trained at least in the United States - to read and write and add and subtract, I mean I think there - the permissive schools have been a disaster, there's no excuse for people not really learning these fundamentals and it's a great handicap for them, but so far as higher education is concerned, I think far from being taken as something that one begins at eighteen and completes at twenty-two, this should be something that one may begin at eighteen or may do a year or two at eighteen or may begin at thirty or may begin at forty. A number of women, I spoke at a, made a commencement address at a community college of the City University of New York last month in which half the graduating class, it so appeared, were women over thirty, many of them over forty, over fifty, who had for one reason not been able to complete their education with children growing up, who were coming back, who won most of the prizes. When you think of the, of this untapped resource in society which can now be tapped, when you think of people who for various reasons can't afford to go to college at the age of eighteen. So if it became much more standard and if it could be allowed for in employment contracts and so on for people to resume, or begin, higher education at the age of thirty-five, forty, forty-five, I think it would be a great benefit to society and it would be a reduction of stress.

D: Yes, yes, it's one aspect but of course, extra-mural opportunities, even if you had a shorter working week, extra-mural opportunities in the evenings and so on should be expanded so that people could find it easier to take

10.

courses in Britain many - the opportunities are limited
and in many cases courses are oversubscribed you know.

J: Does that happen?

D: With housewives ....

E: .... which is a rather interesting phenomenon and there
is a reason for that, because it seems to be that the
traditional evening class, workers' education, so on
arrangements were in fact geared to people who had missed
the boat, who had missed the bus the first time round and
who were supposed to be given an opportunity to catch up
with those who had made it, and that's not really what
we are talking about now. We are really talking about
a different way of integrating education into a person's
life and not just giving them a chance to make up for
what they missed because they happen to be born of the
wrong parents or in the wrong part of town and in that
sense we have to start again, I mean at the London School
of Economics, evening classes were discontinued ten
years ....

ENDS

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1.

J: Mr. (D) if we are talking about motivating this great mass of young people and trying to get them into jobs, or I would rather say, a satisfactory life, with too many people and too few jobs that seems to be the prevailing thing everywhere ... I think we are missing the boat if we are talking about a shorter work week and leisure, I think you've got to be talking about a **WORK WEEK** mix of two jobs ... a highly paying job, in a short work week and then a some form of community job, some form of do-good job in the balance of the week and I don't know whether this is a minimally paid job, the second job, whether it's an unpaid job, but it's the mix seems to me to make some sense to young people. Last things kids want is more leisure time.

D: Well in a sense that's right, they've got to be occupied, should have interests and this is what I was talking about in terms of leisure activities which would include hobbies, sports, some do-it-yourself and by all means if we can encourage in the community socially helpful jobs, I don't mean by compulsion but certainly going to the nth degree trying to persuade people to realise a sense of obligation to society, looking after the elderly, looking after the sick, the disabled - even insuring that our streets are properly cleaned and without interfering with the trade union jobs ... (LAUGHTER)

... there is a great deal of community service that could be developed. I agree with you, again I think there is a need for leadership to come from politicians. I don't understand why half these politicians claim to be so great when they don't appear to be able to give a lead to the community in matters of this kind. I think it's quite vital that we should provide not only good leadership but good example you see. I think if ... the leaders of society, the politicians, businessmen, trade union leaders appear to be acquisitive, want to, want to get on in the world themselves and start to acquire riches and more homes than one and the rest of it, then the rest of the community thinks that's what we should be doing instead of seeing the top people in society, if that's the right word, are prepared to give an example of community service at that sort of level, I think more and more ordinary folk including youngsters would respond. It's an obligation in all of us to do something by way of community service, not just the youngsters leaving school.

E: If it's an obligation why not have a compulsory community service?

D: Well, then you introduce a dictatorial element. I'm not sure how far that can go ... I'd certainly like to see a community service, voluntary; we would have to clear what responsibilities it would carry, but first let's start with education. Let's ensure that built into the educational system is an understanding of community responsibility. The sort of things that youngsters could do to help the community and let's ensure that in the educational process there is some training in aspects of activity that could help the community. After all, if everyone acquired some elementary skill within the school they could do a great deal about the old woman next door that wants a fuse fixed, and they want a bit of painting done and so on, these are the things that we ...

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2.

J: Without making it compulsory, still there ought to be available, a public agency of the sort that during the new deal there is a civilian conservation board which for unemployed people ... and there was a youth corps in the Kennedy/Johnson poverty programme in the sixties, and the Congress has been telling the press ... our dopey administration, in some kind of ... right now ...

D: This would be a voluntary service?

J: This would be a voluntary service, would be available for the unemployed young. When you think of the black youth, unemployment figures among the blacks have been in the last year up to fifty percent, the need for some means by which they can get jobs, they can go to the country, many as the L.C.C.C. used to do, they can perform works of resources, conservation, in pleasant rura 1 surroundings and so on. Paid ... paid jobs ...

D: I agree with that it must be a paid job and it must carry the sort of wage that is appropriate. Any idea of cheap labour for schemes would immediately be denounced and opposed by trade unions and rightly so, and I don't think any of this should take away the need to provide employment, even if it does mean eventually a shorter working week or earlier retirement as the case may be. You know it's my view that half the problem in Northern Ireland is the lack of jobs. It's the difference, over-work that creates the tension. Forty thousand jobs into Northern Ireland could probably bring peace tomorrow, because when young people are without a job, you know, they begin to talk and take an interest in anything and if there is some apparently great dedicated cause they would take part in that even if it means throwing bombs and this is the awful tragedy of an area like Northern Ireland, that this has developed mainly because of lack of job opportunity. So let's not run away from that responsibility.

J: But as employment as last resort, I think that ... yes, it is possible.

D: Yes, of course even apart from taking up the unemployed young people's time in community service, I think community service should be encouraged for people who are at work fully employed.

F: Well, I feel that you have to accept the very evident fact that man has not been created equal. There are tall people and small people and fat people and lean people and it's the same for psychology and motivation and the job satisfaction and everything else, so I don't think anybody has got the slightest chance to find one absolutely generally applicable solution to everybody. Several of you have said most people, or at least many people, I don't think I misquote you, don't find their job unpleasant or boring, so I think for those one code has to be established and for those who find it a terribly tedious thing, an entirely different one, shorter work hours and early retirement may be very very desirable and should be permitted for some who want it, but on the other hand those who don't want it, why not let them

3.

F:
do what they want. I think you have to take into account the
biological fact that you need the feeling of having an outlet
for your energy, of having some satisfactory recognition for
your work and that is a very major point in motivation. Now I
must say that on the basis of one personal experiment that I
have made, I must contradict you on refuse collector because I
have interviewed our refuse collectors and I have found that at
least one of them, a French Canadian, I asked him why do you
do this, isn't this a terrible job? He says no, I get great
satisfaction of it. I am recognised by all my colleagues here
as being the very best. I have never had a complaint against
my work, I am recognised at City Hall as being the best damned
refuse collector in Montreal. He needs satisfaction, he needs
recognition, he needs, he works for excellence.

E: By definition there can be only one best ....

F: Yah, in his field that's the best for him. He does not resent the fact that he is not the world's most outstanding theoretical physicist. He doesn't even know what that is.

D: Would you agree that that refuse collector should have as good a life as in general, as say a university professor because he is doing a very essential job in society, shouldn't he have as good a home.... shouldn't his kids have the same chance as the children of the university professor. These are the things ....

F: By all means, but his kids as those of the outstanding theoretical physicist, or an outstanding man in politics or anywhere else, should have the choice themselves. That is to say I think we ought to be able to give a choice of solutions, not half-time work, and half-time leisure or two jobs for which both ... are paid, because different people have different motivations. But I think there is one thing that somehow biologically goes through the whole animal kingdom, including man, that you want to accomplish your own thing and ... always American hippies ... on an entirely different basis but if, as I said before, you are the resource type, then give him a chance to be a resource. Don't look down upon him for being a garbage can collector. That's what he wants.

D: This great choice of yours that you're talking about ....
.... *Understanding*

SHOT 49/1

Understanding that people should have good housing opportunities.
Good education for the kids and so on. I mean the principal is
not that everyone should be absolutely equal but there should be
equal opportunities.

D:

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Shot 49/1 CONT.

**F:** Equal opportunities exactly, and I think that can be best provided, including the problem of some, I think it was you who said that there should be also some aspect of half-term... where you do work for the community and do something altruistic. Well that is what my biological code of altruistic egoism comes down to. That is to say that for very many people it is ... if you give them a chance to learn it and that is not done in school, that is done by changing the environment, by the media, by the newspapers and so on, by changing motivation. That you give him a feeling that he is really accumulating most for himself by helping others too because they will recognise him and he will have so many friends, that nobody will want to attack him and he will be much stronger than the others. I think that this is not a thing that one can do overnight but it is at least a motivation type towards which we can work.

**D:** There are thousands of these sort of people, for example, in Britain who really get no financial reward but they get enjoyment from serving their fellow workers. It may be the sick visitor in the trade union branch. He goes along and sees members of the union who are sick and he gets some satisfaction out of doing that little service. These are things to encourage a great deal and voluntary societies can help a lot.

**F:** I think the great thing is that people have distinguished too much between egoism and altruism. They seem to be absolutely opposiet and that is why my concept of altruistic egoism is firstly considered a paradox and has met great, greater antagonism because they felt ... it's really nonsense either you work for yourself or you work for the other one, but it, it gradually occurred to me, mainly I must say on the basis of cellular reactions and tissue reactions which apparently have nothing to do with human reactions, but we are made of cells so we think as our cells think and the point is that actually the natural and healthy attitude is to work in a way which is good for you so that's the egoism part of it, but that you get personal satisfaction, you don't lie to yourself that you do it because you feel obligated and you feel that you have to be an altruist and so on and get inferiority complexes if you are not altruist enough. But I am an egoist and I don't mind everybody to know it, but my egoism expresses itself in the fact that I don't get very much satisfaction from accumulating another couple of thousand dollars in my bank account or from getting a higher position or anything like that, but it I go to almost any country where stress concept is accepted in medicine at least, and in most of them is even sociologically accepted, I get a certain satisfaction out of the fact that I am being well received so what else do you want, it does me much more good than capital.

**D:** That's all right you know, they were very fine words, but the bulk of people don't have the opportunities. The bulk of people live in small houses or small flats, with limited opportunities for ... leisure in the sense that we were talking before, and we have got to clear away the slums... the concrete jungles we have allowed to develop in our big industrial towns ... are obsolete.

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F:

That's why I say that there is no ... there are two at it...
One is to try and convince those people that you spoke about
and I think quite correctly, that actually if they look into
themselves and analyse themselves and know more about it, they
could change their attitude and find a satisfaction out of
whatever circumstances they live in. The other one is there
are quite untolerable circumstances and for those unions and all
other means ought to be obliged in order to give them an
alternative outlet for leisure, if they want to have leisure.
But I must say that if I were set out to pasture, under the
best conditions of pasture and they would give me everything
that I want for leisure, I would get terribly bored because I
am not made that way.

END TAPE ROLL VB6

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1.

A:

This subject of the proper and effective policy of the rich countries towards the poor and how can both the substance and (INAUDIBLE) .. tone .. (INAUDIBLE) .. relationship ... to be improved. The first problem to pass my mind is what is a poor country ... It's rather difficult to define because some of the countries in Asia which are regarded as being poor country are potential, potentially rich and .. some of the big countries in Asia which should be rich, by its size, like India seems to be a very poor country and I don't see any solution in making better conditions, as Mr. Galbraith will support me, when I say that the wealth of India depends on the annual monsoon rains. If in a particular year you get sufficient rainfall, the economy is good and on another year if the rainfall happens to not to be up to the amount required by agriculture the economy is bad, but I would say that we could perhaps describe a poor country by the income of its population. I think countries with, who's population still has a low income could be described as a poor country, but then we must also think about the potentials, the resources of those countries. To help them effectively you've got to help them to develop their own resources so that they can become richer, so that the income in each particular country could be increased. That's a sort of general statement but, coming from one of those countries myself, I would say that the big powers that are supposed to be helpless are so very committed to their economic system, they seem to believe that they hold the secret to the absolute truth of ... and anybody who disagree with them seems to be on the wrong side of the fence and therefore shouldn't be helped at all. If you accept help (COUGH) .. economic help from the Soviet, Soviet Russia, I think half the world will believe that you have already become a communist state, but if you accept help from the United States, and then you are a partner in the Vietnam war. It's very difficult for us so-called poor countries to decide what to do in the, in this case. We always have doubts as regard help from the big powers, whether having accepted that help, what's expected from us, should we go on making progress in our own natural way or should we adhere to the economic system of the country that has given us help, much needed help. That seems to be the doubt in the minds of, I would say every poor country everywhere, and .. the first step that should be taken by the big powers is to clear that doubt. I still maintain that for a country like mine which had never been under any colonial rule, we have made progress through our own natural process. Not like the other countries which had been colonies of the Western power in the past. We, there is a great deal of advantage in, of having been independent all these years; first of all we have enough food to feed our own population because in colonies, in past colonies if I may say -- a very unhappy thing called the cash crop was always introduced - like in Malaysia for instance, the British intro-

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2.

A: duced a great deal of rubber plantations and so did the Dutch in Indonesia with the result that these countries only had cash crop but no food crops. Thailand was never a colony and therefore we could just sort of stick to our food crop growing and with the result that now we have food to spare, food to export, but our problem is where to export, who will buy the excess, say rice, maize and other food products from us. If the markets could be found, if the big powers were to help us in some way or other in finding the market, in helping us to export our products and to give us the freedom to make progress in our own natural way, I think it would be a great deal of help indeed, and the results would be very happy in the end and what I'm - have said goes for all the countries which are now known as -- that means the Philippines, Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia, Singapore. We have a great deal of potentials and resources and if you were to make that area an area of neutrality and peace and free from any kind of political compulsion to join either camp and if we could be allowed to make progress in our own natural way, we could be of great benefit to the area, to the region and to the rest of the world by supplying to the other countries what they need. And we could always, also be able to help toward peace in the region and peace in the world. As to what kind of help, special kind of help I'm, I'd rather not say it now, but I would like to hear some, some remarks from other gentlemen. What I want to say now is that, the problem with us is that help is, we doubt the motive behind the help given us, because all the big powers seem very much committed to their own economic system and their own ideology. We in Thailand having been independent all these years have the hindsight, the advantage of the hindsight, we could look back hundred and fifty years or so at our economic development in history and I think we are in the position to choose our own economic system, which neither, may be neither to the left or to the right entirely but - we may adopt the best of both systems, both economic systems for our own use.

L: If I have a right to make a speech aren't you a hell of a lot better off without help. Any help you get entitles you, involves you in in action that you don't approve of, why the hell don't you go along on your own -- what, what help do you need.

A: Well, there are things like capital which we don't have enough - I think foreign investment could be of great benefit in our development, but it is our job. I admit it is our job to make the climate for foreign investment healthy.

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3.

A.M.: Mr. (I), could I ask you, I mean there is in the popular press some countries the view that Russia attaches strings to aid, economic imperialism is a phrase that we hear. Obviously you wouldn't agree with that.

? So do we.

A.M.: ... perhaps you could talk a little bit about that.

I: Well I wouldn't agree, because of course, and I think there are a lot of examples where it's not so; of course we wouldn't render assistance to a country which is rabidly anti-Soviet, anti-communist and behaves very bad in international relations. Because we are considered to be a rich country which we are but we don't have, it doesn't come our help from simple excess of mining equipment etc., we have to take it from other means ... I think the whole problem is not such a simple one, well Thailand and some other countries are an exception. Mainly this programme is a programme of colonialism and from a major part of the third world and, I think that there are no easy solutions. You cannot buy prosperity for them this foreign aid. They have to undergo serious changes socially, politically, economically. This is a painful process and a process which requires in many countries really a revolution and we are blamed that we sympathise and support it, but I was very glad to read Senator Church speech at the Democratic Convention where he said that there is ferment going on in the world and the United States celebrating its bicentennial cannot be always against all revolutions actually.

JKG: When you say in, in a rather blunt challenge to Mr. (A), which I put forth in all good humour, that in the countries which you have aided most, China, Egypt, Indonesia, Ghana and the countries that we have aided most, India, Vietnam, one could cite quite a few other examples that we both have done an enormous amount to stimulate independence.

I: Yes this, you know, the whole thing with the aid, I think here you mentioned also very different countries. With China it was our great disappointment and we aided them not to keep them in line, we regarded them to be very natural.

(INAUDIBLE - ALL TALK TOGETHER)

JKG: ... Chinese independence, we rendered to Vietnamese independence.

I: Well I think, I wouldn't say that you can, you can -- the Chinese policy to independence. They had enough of it and I think now they behaved differently but I would say that assistance, you know, we have in our country, in our history. Russia was a country before the revolution which had its colonies, they were inside the country. I think this is one of our success stories. Our (INAUDIBLE) ... this is part of the country which were actually on the level of

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4.

I:
Afghanistan, may be lower sixty years ago, and now they have reached the general level of development of Soviet Union, I think we managed to deal with this problem very good and I think there is lot, there must be a lot of interest in this experience in other countries. I don't say it is obligatory, I think each country has to look for its own ways but I would say that you cannot speak only about assistance for these countries. I think for other powers which you call rich, which are very different, socially different, politically different and not in such good relations between themselves, their only concern is how to help the third countries, but anyway there are many things which have not to be done by the great powers and I think this would be very helpful for development of this poor countries because we have, this is one of their, their problems, the hangovers and very strong remnants of colonialism in many countries, so-called poor countries. The other one is the discrepancy between the level of economic development and well-being in different countries and if you take them, if you help facilitate them not to participate in arms race, and now we have this poor man's arms race in many parts of the globe, and I have, I don't remember just now the numbers but it is interesting that in last years they are in all military expenditure the -- persons, person to show biggest power has dropped, not because they have decreased their expenditures, but because the arms race is very actively going on in other parts of the globe which is very bad for them. I think also that rabid anti-communism in this years has done a very bad service to these countries because somehow United States and the West tended all the time, if they were anti-communist support, whatever they were, and so it aligned itself with the worst dictatorships, with worst regimes, with absolutely corrupt people and systems and this hampered very much, I think, the progress of many parts of this part of the world. Of course, all of that doesn't take away the problem of how to help them, and I'm sure this is actually a position for our government, we have our sympathies. We don't pretend to be so rich that we can sustain all the globe, all countries, but what we have we will spend on assistance, not simply to make it our military ally, but we give it if we know that as we understand it, social conditions are right. It won't go simply to corrupt regimes, to bribes, to corruption there because we take it from our people -- they're -- very, internally they have gone through certain stage of reforms, land reforms, agrarian reforms, others. It's when it really will be used for industrialisation of the country, for progress and agriculture of this country, for its progress in education etc., We have ready also to participate in some multilateral projects which are there, but if we have really, if we are sure that it will not become a political undertaking which will really not serve the interests of these countries, but I think that - all this is tied very closely with the general picture of international operations.

END TAPE ROLL VB5

"THE AGE OF UNCERTAINTY"

ROLL VB.8

SHOT 84 B

TAKE 1
BOE

There is no relationship to the modern world at all, the plain fact is that the Soviet Union has done almost nothing to help any developing country in the past two decades, unless it was putting in force. I was leader of the British delegation at the first United Nations Conference on Trade and Aid in 1964 and without us, UNCTAD organisations would never have been constituted, the Soviet Union took no part at all. It's taken no part in any UNCTAD Conference since then, its contribution towards the third world has been minimal, unless it was, unless it was putting in force, which it thought would change the regime to its own purposes. Now when you come to look at the question of the third world and you talk about the rich world, which is the rich world today? The rich world today is the oil producing countries, that's the rich world, not Britain, not the rest of Western Europe, which has got large trade deficits, the rich world is the oil producing world which has got enormous surpluses, and which first of all doesn't know what to do with its surpluses and secondly if shown, is very unwilling to use them to any constructive purpose with the rest of its third world brethren. Now the Arab world which has got all the oil money has got the whole of Africa, the Indian sub-continent, large part of South America, all of which is much poorer than the Arab oil producing countries, and yet it does very little to help them. You take Britain, we've got a permanent balance of payments deficit and yet we are always urged to do more. In other words, we are a debtor, we have our bank manager and we say I must increase my overdraft in order to help some people who are across the other side of the world. Now does that make any sense, any practical sense from the point of view of British citizens? Quite honestly it doesn't. Well then, what is the basis, what is the basis of aid for the third world? Either you say we have a moral obligation because we started industrialisation first or else you say we are sufficiently rich that we have an obligation to help other people. Well, the first one applies. We started before other

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people but we are not sufficiently rich in order
to be able to help other people unless we get
further and further into debt and this is what
is happening with Britain today. Then you come
to this very, in a way much more controversial
political question about the help which you give
to individual countries. I think it goes
beyond ordinary human forebearance to say alright,
we will help such and such a country and when they
appear at a United Nations discussion, they
kick us in the teeth, and the ordinary British
voter says to himself, well why am I contributing
out of tax to help another country and then at
the U.N. they just kick us in the teeth and
say you're absolute hell, you're an imperialist
power, we disagree with everything you do and so
on. These are really very basic human consider-
ations. Now I am in favour, I always have been
in favour of trying to help the third world to
develop. One has to recognise the limitations
on doing this, and I believe above all to recognise
the changed situation in which it's the Arab
countries and the oil producing countries which
have got the wealth today, and the obligation
is on them above everybody to help the third
world in its development and the rest of us have
been tooguilt conscious, inhibited to bring this
home to them and this is what we ought to do.
Now as far as the Soviet Union is concerned,
it's never hesitated in the spheres of power.
Angola is the latest example ....

SHOT 85 B

TAKE 1
BOE

... and influence the situation there. Now
here we come to a thing which I think is important
from the point of view of the western world, we
have to show developing countries that we have
a much better way of life than the Soviet Union
and the way we can do this, is by helping them
economically and not by saying Americans have
got to send our forces to Angola because the
Russians go in and provide equipment and allow
one particular group to win in Angola and they
are likely to do this in other parts of the world
wherever it happens. And so I agree that we have
got to show that there is a better way of life
than the Soviet Union has and one way of showing
that is to help them in their own internal

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development. So I'm in favour of trying to do
that but we've got to recognise there are
limitations now on the western world and we've
got to bring home to the people who've really
got the money and are going on having the money
and you have produced depression right across
Europe and the western world that it's their
obligation now to look after their brethren in
the third world. And that's why I find this
discussion completely unrealistic and absolutely
out of date. It's gone way back to the fifties.
It has no relationship to the modern world.

D Surely we're not so altruistic as all that,
Ted.

JKG Could I ask just one question purely in the
interests of fairness, it seems to me, and good
humour, I spent a good deal of my life in India
and I would, I would think, Edward, you are
overstating the case against the Soviet Union
on the matter of aid. I think we all had to
admire the energy and the skill with which the
Soviet Union supported heavy industry,
particularly in the steel industry of India.

B That was just one steel mill.

JKG No, they produced two very large ones and two
very good ones and contributed substantially
to an engineering industry, and I must say I
always had a certain feeling of guilt that we were
not ourselves aligned with similarly substantial
visible projects and in my time, I would have
to say in defence of the Soviet Union, that they
didn't interfere visibly in the political life.
Certainly no more than we did and our, since
I was Ambassador I have no hesitation in saying
our intervention was of the kindliest and most
constructive sort. I hope you will consider
my defence of the Soviet Union adequate.

I Thank you very much. (LAUGHTER) I would
say that what 'B' stated here, well, it's under-
standable that I don't agree with him but I
wanted to add to the two obligations you

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4 -

mentioned - you have a third one. It was your,
many of these countries were your former
colonies and they in one way or another helped
very much to the prosperity of Great Britain
and made it what it has become in 19th century,
beginning of the first half maybe of the 20th
century and I think we felt we had special
obligations towards our middle Asia after the
Revolution. To Caucasus, to some other regions
of our country, and we made there investments
much higher than it was made on the average in
the country. I think you cannot say that it's
not your moral duty now because you are poor.
This is also very relative you know, if the
Americans comprising six per cent of the world
population consume forty per cent of world res-
ources and feel themselves poor, it's another
kind of being poor than these other countries.
I think it has to be regarded as a special duty,
the assistance to this country, to the countries,
former colonial countries. As far as Angola
is concerned.... I don't ... agree with you
on the point that we, that we look for something
else. Yes, we supported one side, not the
other side where, which was supported by South
Africans and I think it is in itself a good case
for our support, not for others but I think
also that it was very useful that the things in
Angola went this way because it even influenced
American policy towards Rhodesia, maybe towards
South Africa. Somehow it happens in this way
with American policy very often that it has to
be dragged and get a shock really to look in the
face of some realities, because this realities
in South Africa were known for everybody for
decades but nobody moved. Would 'K' make
this trip and some of these announcements a few
years ago before Angola .... I think it could
have been much more useful and productive at
this point.

B You did it all for the good of the Americans
really.

(ALL TALK TOGETHER)

I You know policy is not a (?) some game. I'm
not at all happy that now there are some other

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-5-

difficulties. I think it was clearly written
in the books after the crash of the fascist
regime in Portugal that there will be, something
must be done with their former colonies and
there was some time for it, but nothing was done,
really and then became an outcry that, of course,
Soviet Union again became the villain and comm-
unists and detente whatever you want, but anyway
I think that this are just the remnants of the
colonial empires and colonial rules which have
to be changed. Simply it is impossible to live
with them any longer, and as far as your argument
is, well some of the Arab countries have become
rich. I saw some hotels, very first class hotels
built by petrol dollars in this country and I
think it would be more just maybe if they would
invest it in these poorer countries, but I
wouldn't put it this way that now this is the
obligation of the American, good friends of the
United States mainly and Great Britain, Saudi
Arabia, Kuwait, ... they carry, they are the only
ones who carry responsibility for the
development of third world. I think much more
than that is required from many countries and as
far as the UNCTAD is concerned, I know from first
hand, two or three people from my Institute were
this spring at the last UNCTAD Conference so
you simply, this is mistake of fact, we took
part in all the UNCTAD Conferences. How
fruitful it was, it was a different thing, it
was difficult and you know just due to I think
that we are living under serious burden of Cold
War perceptions and psychology and hangovers
and this makes a lot of difficulties even in
these subjects. We have somehow to overcome
it and then it will be also easier to co-operate
in this field, in helping these poor countries.

A. Well, I have a question to ask or I have a
complaint to make. I sent the American troops
out of Thailand hoping that there would be less
arms race among the country in that part of the
world, but having done that, I haven't seen any
change in the Vietnamese arms race policy. They
seem to be increasing.

I Well, I'm sure this is a very short period to
make any far going, far reaching conclusions
about this part of the ....

-5-

6 -

(BOTH TALK TOGETHER)

A
.... I went to China and asked them about it,
they said exactly the same words as you do ....
it needs time .... I didn't need very much time
to send the Americans out (LAUGHTER) - only one
year and it's all out now, nobody left ....

I
.... you were helped a lot by Vietnamese I think.
In other case, it would have been a much more
difficult task for you to do. To send the
Americans out ....

(BOTH TALK TOGETHER)

A
.... they gave me a lot of internal obstruction
to the policy, a lot of people said that I did
the wrong thing by sending the Americans out
and that is why I lost the election, I am no
longer Prime Minister.

I
But your brother ....

A
Well, my brother is somebody else, there is
no connection there .... at least not a family
.... we belong to a different political party with
different ideas.

I
But the power is always in the family.

A
Well, I don't claim to be the Kennedys of
Thailand but .... (LAUGHTER) .... but seriously
though, there is another thing I would like to
ask, I have been trying to find out for a long
time, you mentioned that your help to China
was a disappointment, why were you so disappointed
about China? What did China do that was wrong?
Well, I'm asking this in case in the future I
became something important again, if I was to
solicit help from the great Soviet Union I might
not be a disappointment to you. (LAUGHTER)

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7 -

I Well, you know, it's really a bit unfair to discuss this problem in the absence of the Chinese ..... had to be Chinese according to statistics ....

A Well, I have Chinese ancestors, too ....

I But I would say you know, after Chinese Revolution, we took it. It was very emotional and sentimental, I would say in our country and we were very poor and in a very bad state at this time after the war. We build a lot of factories there, we ....

SHOT 85
TAKE 1
(SLATE 60)

I

.... then they turned rabidly anti-Soviet you know, all of a sudden like that. Well it lasted for maybe one decade or more when it was in preparation it has began with their opposition towards first moves towards detente in our foreign policy when they critisised us for not being not truly Marxists - that Marxists you would be only revolutionary wars, etc., etc. Beginning of sixties then it became more, more distracted from any ideological schemes, and simply was territorial claims with other things I wouldn't say that many people in our country can understand it, otherwise than they need because of their internal difficulties to have external enemies and surrounds which will help them to bring all of it together.

A Yes, that seems to prove my point at the beginning. There is a great deal of ideological basis for these helps and if you having received the help and you sort of deviate from the, from the ideology of your helper you become a disappointment.

(ALL TALK TOGETHER)

D

.... with the position of the multinational company we were talking about this morning in Thailand. When they're faced with the pressures

- 7 -

for higher wages, they simply withdraw their
interests in your country. Surely the job of
politicians throughout the world, whether it's
the left or the right, should be concerned
towards helping countries like yours so that
you can preserve a neutrality but develop
trade and develop industry.

A This is what I was hoping for.

D
Well, I'm trying to support you on this. You
see I think I'm supporting the voice of Thailand
for neutrality. You see we in Britain are not
quite so altruistic as 'B' has been suggesting.
We do give a lot of overseas aid and I'm all in
favour of it and I know he is, but a lot of our
overseas aid is related to British goods going
to the underdeveloped countries and British goods,
American goods, Russian goods and so on is not
to be sent for that, if it's to raise the
standards of people, if it's to bring them more
into line in terms of standard of living with the
more developed countries of the world, but it's
how you do it without pressures, without undue
influence, not only a political nature but in
industrial nature, and we in the trade union
movement are very concerned about the attitude
for example of multinational companies that
are prepared to exploit the third world and when
we try to assist our brothers - our brothers
and sisters in the third world, our brothers and
sisters say are you doing us damage by trying to
raise our standard of living you are denying us
employment because the multinational companies
then withdraw and move to another undeveloped
country, this is a great problem for us. I
don't say I've got the answer but the trade
union movements of the western world certainly
wants to try to achieve that.

B There is another aspect of this - I don't know
in fact of any multinational companies which
have withdrawn from the third world. I do
know of ....

D From individual countries.

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9 -

B Yes well, individual countries. I do know of multinational companies which for example have said to Britain, if you carry on with your present wage inflation we are going to produce our stuff in Germany or in France and not in Britain - that's very well known. But you see if you want to get out of the inter-governmental relationship which produces political complications much the best way of doing it is through individual companies, because if a company invests in a third world country, then it not only brings money, which is what a government provides, but it also brings expertise and knowhow which a government doesn't provide and it also goes into a partnership with the country which is developing so that, whatever it is, 50 or 60 or 70 per cent is held in the share holding and in the directive by the company - the country in which it bases itself and this gives you a real partnership. And what I think has been worrying is that so much of the developing world is so concerned with central state control that it hasn't welcomed individual companies coming in bringing expertise and saying we're going into partnership with you, you put in part of the money, we'll put in part of the money, you put in part of the management, we'll put in part of the management and this is by far the best arrangement which in fact you can have between rich countries and poorer countries.

A I said from the very beginning that to have the right kind of help the poor countries are responsible for conscience within their own country to encourage the sort of help we're talking about, private companies and so on.

B If you want an example, you've got Singapore close at hand. Tremendous development....

A That's right.

B .... Japanese money, German money, British money a bit, and all done in partnership with people who are there at the moment.

D But with a very strong central government control.

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