TelCon
Amb. Dobrynin/Gen. Haig

10:12, December 12, 1972

D: Hello.

H: Hello, Mr. Ambassador.

D: Oh, hello, General, how are you?

H: Every day I have a new thrill.

D: Yes, well I have too. Is anything new.

H: Well, I had one report from Henry. You know they had technical meetings this morning.

D: Yes, but today they have not yet met.

H: No, I have had no report on the principals meeting. Except where he said that they had word at the technical meeting that the delegation had still not received any instructions from Hanoi. So, if they keep saying they have no instructions Henry will stay until they do.

D: How long Henry is going to stay?

H: Well if he has to stay tomorrow, he'll do that.

D: Yes, if he must. Well, I received telegram to discuss with them and they complain about many things. They say that it is really not so simple, this is not the one the corrections of the DMZ, and a lot of other unsolved problems, and they complain that Henry--you remember when he left there were several points, and he asked me not to give, but he said it's all right if you tell the General on several points. Now they are complaining that he is not really doing what he has said-- in general terms that's right because he didn't give them really.

H: Yeah.

D: And, they are telling us that well there's still a disagreement about the position of the international commission. They said that the change ______ or more than one of hundred thousand ______ of his troops have been withdrawn, more than three or four times, and he mentions he wants these things around-- I mean symbolically--not symbolic, but not to put in to the agreement but to say, he mentions to me, this is why

DECLASSIFIED
Authority FA 1258
By M.W. King, Date 04/04/72

2

forty thousand. Now they say Henry is give more than
hundred thousand, this is true, then they want to have
special warranty paragraph to be included in agreement
still, so the was an understanding that he will not do it,
Mr. Duc. Then they complained about political prisoners
in a sense of good ______ you might say, as you promised
before. They say now Henry doesn't want to do or take it
really a clear position. Then they go through about an
exchange of letters, you know, this is a famous argument
about in the preamble who call by name and who you call
by name, remember. So they say that you got all of what
essentially you mention to me last time, ______
and then there will be a letter from ______. They
don't know quite sure what he is up to. From Saigon and
from Provisional Government.

H: Yes.

(?)

D: And they say it was not clear because if Saigon its own letter you'll say, yes, we agree but at the same time we do not agree on ______ position. So what kind of agreement we have here. And they put as ______ as yesterday I receive late, because we are not immediately in connection with the President of South Vietnamese. But on the record we discuss with them all the questions because-- and they begin to complain and call this thing ______. Let me put it this way, there are many other important questions which they should discuss. But because of Henry, as if you said there are other impressions ______ and of course the President mentions that to make only one peace and it's over, but according to Henry it will take up to the end of December, all these things, so they are not so sure really by the end of December. ______

What can you tell me.

H: Well, you know Mr. Ambassador I wouldn't have come home Saturday night unless we had the distinct impression that there was only one issue left. Now the only other issue was a matter of understanding on the political prisoners--

D: Yes, the same message to Moscow.

3

H: And a de facto redeployment of some forces. So what they are trying to do is--they agreed to hold the language of 8(b), and they said on Friday and again on Saturday, that is resolved. But we went again on Monday, they said we have to have 60 days, and all the political prisoners will be released. And then Henry said, well if you want that kind of a thing, then you've got to have a hundred thousand or so troops withdrawn, because you're turning out another 39 thousand--

D: It isn't only in connection with political prisoners.

H: That's right.

D: But is it comes to the October situation, I mean, even with you gave an October answer in the last session two weeks ago, so it stands this way, no specific measuring of their troops but at the same time just no exchanging 8(c), yes.

H: That's right. They've made a link between the political prisoners and the redeployment of some forces in the northern part of South Vietnam. They did that, we didn't do it.

D: Oh, I see.

H: And a

D: If they just leave it, there is no problem.

H: If they'd just leave 8(c) alonethere'd be no problem, we will do everything, but we can't put a 60 day deadline on the political prisoners, that gets a linkage between U.S. prisoners

D: Yes, I understand. But the prisoners, it is being solved. moderate now.

H: No, it's not really. Because they reopened it again yesterday morning after we thought it was solved.

D: Yesterday they opened.

H: Yesterday afternoon. When they discussed the understanding.

D: Yeah.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E012004
By: N.M. Gaeta

DECLASSIFIED
Authority EO 12587
By W.M. Date 04/30/74

4

H: Henry felt yesterday afternoon very, very discouraged. Because on Saturday we thought there was only one issue left.

D: Yes.

H: And that thing they've done. You know, I have observed it, everyday we settle it and we go back the next day and they would say now 8(c) is reopened again. The matter of the civilians in the South was reopened. And we would give away the day before concessions in order to get that agreement, then they would pocket our concession, and then come back and reopen the issue again. This is exactly the tactics the use.

D: I will mention to Moscow right away.

H: You know, I think I'm giving a fairly objective picture because most of these things are not that important to us. And I think we can take a more objective view. But they are just being very difficult.

D: Yes, if it would so, how long do you think it will take you altogether to finish this--

H: Well, I think--

D: point by point.

H: I would think it would take about two to three days if they are reasonable.

D: It is not the corrections that can be mentioned to them to finish their work of the agreement, it could go on by the end of December.

H: Well, what they keep saying, Mr. Ambassador, is they refuse to discuss the protocols, to do the technical work, until they get the big issues settled, and then we think we have the big issues settled, except for this one issue, and Henry decides Sunday and Monday to get these technical discussions, so that we would contract to sign, and they refuse to discuss. They just wouldn't do it. They won't work out details until they are satisfied with the broad agreement. Every time we think we have those questions in the broad agreement settled, then they come back the next day and say no we've got to reopen.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E012055
By: W.N. Parry
Date: 06/04/55

5

D: Well, please keep me informed at the end of the day what you will hear from Henry. Then I will inform what you mention to me.

H: Yes, I'm really having a problem. We really have no deadline, Mr. Ambassador, quite frankly, we can go on with this, but we are not going to go on the same way.

D: Yes, I understand.

H: Because--

D: Yesterday you mention to me that Henry could go today at Midnight, you mention to me--

H: Yes, but he's not going to leave if they haven't gotten new instructions. And you know it's a credible position. Better say I just ______ because the basic for intransigent there's a limit. There's a definite limit. I don't think it's today, maybe tomorrow--

D: But, when you say that they in sense, they imply something but they do nothing. Did you say anything on this subject.

H: Well, I have to get a report of this afternoon's meeting.

D: Oh, I see.

H: I haven't gotten it yet. But as of yesterday, they were totally insane. They reopened the civilian, the American civilians--

D: Oh.

H: Which had been settled on Saturday, they did reopen 8(c) again, in context of insisting that all the political prisoners be released-- right away

D: I understand. I will inform Moscow what you mention to me and, please keep me informed because we are rather interested.

H: Right. I will do that. I should know in about an hour or an hour and half.

D: Okay, it's no hurry, but let me know.

H: Good.

D: Fine, thank you very much.

H: Right.

TELCONE

Ambassador Dobrynin/General Haig

6:45 p.m, December 12, 1972

D: Oh, General, excuse me for keeping you. Because I called, we have today a private meeting at 7 o'clock with Secretary Rogers.

H: Oh, yes.

D: So I decided to call you before going because afterwards it will be a little too late maybe.

H: Yes. Well, I don't think anything was satisfactory today, at all. And I think Henry is coming back tomorrow.

D: Uh-huh. You mean tomorrow there will be another session?

H: There will be another session but I think it doesn't look like there's any progress at all.

D: Uh-humm.

H: And that he's just going to come on back and we'll have a recess.

D: Uh-humm. There was no discussion at today's meeting about recess?

H: I'm not sure because he has not sent me the message he usually does. I talked to him on the telephone.

D: Oh, I see.

H: And he said he would talk to you when he got back.

D: Yeah, I understand.

H: But it sounded to me to be very pessimistic.

D: No, I mean, there was no discussion between Henry and Le Duc Tho about recess, I mean? There was no discussion about recess?

H: I think there was.

D: There was?

H: That they would recess.

D: Tomorrow?

DECLASSIFIED
Authority: E. O. THO
By: N. W. MARSH

TELCONE

6:45 p.m., December 12, 1972

- 2 -

H: Yes. After tomorrow's session.

D: In this case, he will come -- I mean, he will fly in the evening Paris time, yes?

H: Yes. Now I'm waiting for a message from him and if there's anything significant in it, I'll call you.

D: Call me there or I will be here around 11:00.

H: Fine.

D: I could breathe in any time.

H: Good. All right, Mr. Ambassador.

D: Because really we were in touch yesterday with Hanoi on this business and that's why we really would like -- they said that they would take under consideration but I don't know what was further development.

H: No, it looks very bad today.

D: Okay. Please call me then.

H: Right.

D: Okay. Thank you very much.

wgh

TelCon
The President/Mr. Kissinger

2:03, December 14, 1972

K: Mr. President.

P: Henry, Hi. I have, there's no urgency in time because I
am working on a lot of year end inaugural stuff and so forth,
but I'd like to another round with you and Al some time this
afternoon.

K: Right. We'll be over in about ten minutes.

P: Any time, shall we say 2:30. That'll give me a little more
time.

K: We'll be there at 2:30.

P: Fine, is that a good time.

K: We'll be there at 2:30.

P: Is that a good time?

K: Fine, we are seeing Dobrynin at 3:00, I'll delay him until
3:30.

P: No, no, 2:30 is fine, and we'll call him and delay him at the
time.

K: Right.

P: Okay.

Dated: 12/2/72
Address: 1200 W. 33rd St., Los Angeles, CA 90017

TelCon

Taft Schreiber/Mr. Kissinger

3:33, December 14, 1972

K: Hello.

S: Welcome home.

K: Thank you Taft.

S: I am happy you are back. Are you going to come out here the following week with the President? I understand he's scheduled it the 21st or the 20th.

K: If you came on the 21st, I'd come the day after Christmas.

S: Uh huh. Then I'll miss you because I am going to be--I'm leaving for Hawaii on the 26th. I going to try to get a couple of week's rest. But what I was calling about was that I thought if I would see you that week, I'd like to set up a date for you to meet with Lew.

K: Well, I'd be glad to do that.

S: You know, you've been reading the papers and everything, things are steaming, and I'll probably talk to you tomorrow or over the weekend or something when we can have a little talk. I know this is not the time. But if--you may be getting freed up sooner than anybody thinks.

K: Well, I'll be glad to talk to him. I'll almost certainly be there the week of the 21st.

S: Oh, that's perfect. Then I'll more or less sound with him and have you both get in touch. And then probably over the weekend--I can reach you through the switchboard, can't I.

K: Always.

S: And you can try to call me back or something on my line.

K: Of course.

S: Fine. Well, I'll be in touch with you.

K: Marvelous, Taft.

S: Take care. I'm glad that you are home and hope everything is Fine.

TELCORN

Marilyn Berger (Wash. Post)/Mr. Kissinger

9:25 p.m., December 14, 1972

K: Hello

B: Henry.

K: The delicatessen is to the left of the Imperial Palace.

B: I'm glad to know that. Welcome Home.

K: Thank you.

B: Isn't it incredible?

K: How did you get the visa? I thought I had prevented it.

B: What did you say?

K: Well, I told them that we don't really like it. Are you going alone?

B: Well, what happened was the National Committee on U.S.-China relations has a group going. Epstein, Luce, Pye (sp?), Scallopino, Barnett --

K: Yeah.

B: The letter came across my desk saying that they were going so I asked if I could apply to cover their trip and the paper said, oh, hell; go ahead. And thunder struck; they came through and said I could cover the trip in part but to do general reporting as well.

K: Isn't that marvelous.

B: And I am the first reporter from the Washington Post --

K: I know, they hate the Washington Post.

B: Just like everybody else around here. As Epstein said, I don't know if it will be to your advantage or disadvantage but the Washington Post has a reputation for being anti-Administration.

K: [Laughter]

B: When I was up in Ottawa, they asked me all about the Post. I was up there yesterday. In any case, they gave me a very generous visa as far as time is concerned.

K: How long are you going to be there?

["TELCONE", "- 2 -", "Marilyn Berger/Mr. Kissinger", "9:25 p.m., December 14, 1972", "B: Well, they said three weeks but they gave me a three-month visa.", "K: How long are you going to plan to be there?", "B: Well, I'm planning on three weeks for starters.", "K: Yeah.", "B: But I hope I'll be there when you make peace, that's the exciting part.", "K: Yeah, yeah.", "B: I think that's the time to be there. In fact, yesterday when I was up in\nOttawa, they kept stressing that it was only Vietnam that was preventing\nbetter relations and they made Taiwan totally secondary.", "K: Yeah, that's true.", "B: How are things? I have not followed since a couple of days ago what you've\nbeen up to?", "K: Marilyn, I called you out of friendship.", "B: Oh, all right. I'm really not -", "K: To tell you how pleased I am that you are going", "B: I'm taking off very early tomorrow morning so I'm not --", "K: In fact, if you would only once have a drink with me without pestering me with questions, I'd even see you. You are the most relentless questioner that I know.", "B: Would you like to come over and have a drink and talk to me about China?", "K: I can't do it tonight.", "B: [Laughter]", "K: [Laughter] Where do you live? I can't come but tell me where you live.", "B: About two minutes from your house.", "K: Where do you live?", "DREASUNG", "Auch. 2. 2. 2. 2. 2. 2. 2.

TELCON

Marilyn Berger/Mr. Kissinger

9:25 p.m., December 14, 1972

- 3 -

B: 25th & Q. I enter the Parkway about two minutes from where your house is.

K: Oh, yeah.

B: I have a P Street entrance. It's that row of apartment houses in Georgetown.

K: Oh, yeah, yeah.

B: You do live on Waterside Drive don't you?

K: That's right, yes.

B: For the times you are there. Is there anything in particular that is needed knowing about China at this point that you feel should --

K: Just remember that they are terribly subtle.

B: Yes.

K: And you don't have to hammer away at them the way you do at slower minds like me.

B: You pick on me!

K: [Laughter]

B: I really ask you direct questions because I don't understand you when you are being uh --

K: No, but I mean for your own good, if you see any of their top people -- those are the only ones I know -- I mean, do it more allusively; don't do it like a District Attorney.

B: You know, I really am very embarrassed. You make me sound like such a hard driving dame, which I don't think I am.

K: No, no; I think you are basically very soft-hearted but you have a very good mind and you don't take any baloney.

B: Well, somebody said I'm going to be the secret weapon for the U.S. to get something out of there. I don't know, I'm just -- I think Chou En-lai has to be the world's great, great man in this day.

K: Oh, he's terrific. I don't know whether you will see him -- Oh, I think you'll see him. He'll --

TELCON

Marilyn Berger/Mr. Kissinger

9:25 p.m., December 14, 1972

- 4 -

B: Well, if I'm with that group, I might.

K: Oh, yeah, yeah. And he's a great fellow.

B: And it's going to be New Year's Eve. My goodness -- where are you? We have a terrible connection.

K: I'm in my office.

B: Oh, I wonder if I'm supposed to ask that.

K: No, I'm in my office.

B: I'm very hesitant to ask questions.

K: [Laughter]

B: You scare me.

K: Will you call me when you get back?

B: Of course.

K: And I really wish you a great time. I'll read what you write with great interest.

B: Well, I wish you'd tell me what I -- Look, if anything happens on the Vietnam thing --

K: I'll think of you with nostalgia.

B: I'm interested in, you know, seeing what they tell their people about what happened on Vietnam.

K: Well, I pray something will happen while you're there.

B: Well, do it for me, Henry, if not for anyone else.

K: Listen, at this stage, I have to do it for me or I'll lose my mind. You know, when you meet with two groups of Vietnamese in the same day, you might as well run an insane asylum.

B: [Laughter]

K: Because both of them have the worse combinations of confusionism and French Cartesianism. Not a touch of relationship to reality. They'll tell

TELCON

Marilyn n Berger/Mr. Kissinger

9:25 p.m., December 14, 1972

- 5 -

K: (cont'd) you it's logical and in fact -- this is not for publication.

B: Um-humm.

K: One evening I met the South Vietnamese and I did a parity, or what I thought was a parity of the Le Duc Tho speech and it sounded perfectly rational to them and they said, "Well, that's it; that's the way you have to handle them. And we know how to do it." [Laughter]

B: [Laughter] Well, you know, I'm just reading Dick Solomon's book on the Chinese mind. It's a fascinating book. Have you read it?

K: No.

B: I didn't figure you would have had the time. But I think it's preparing me for something although I don't know what.

K: Oh, the Chinese though are much more subtle, much more elegant.

B: Oh, they're marvelous. Even the few that I've met are marvelous.

K: Oh, the Chinese are tremendous.

B: You know, I feel they're as different from the, for example, there was one man who looked a little bit like Hav En-lai (sp?) and I thought they are as different from the North Vietnamese as the North Vietnamese are from the South Vietnamese.

K: More, more.

B: And I know a delightful people. I'm afraid the same thing that happened Alsop is going to happen to me.

K: A great sense of humor. Oh, yes; if they want to.

B: Yeah. Well, they really needn't be afraid of me; that's the point.

K: Oh, you'll fix that.

B: Oh, come on! There you go again.

K: [Laughter] Marilyn, I really look forward to seeing you when you come back.

B: Is there anything I ought to look for as far as information on foreign policy or anything of that sort?

TELCOM

Marilyn Berger/Mr. Kissinger

9:25 p.m., December 14, 1972

- 6 -

K: Marilyn, you don't look; they give you.

B: Yeah.

K: You can't just run around and dig. That's not Washington.

B: No, but I mean, I might ask a proper question at some point.

K: Well, just use your instinct.

B: [Laughter] I was told not to do that.

K: Just use your instinct and a little restraint.

B: [Laughter] Well, --

K: Drop me a postcard, will you?

B: I shall. But I wish you absolutely the best of luck on this other thing because -- By the way, you said you'll lose your mind. Murray when I used to say, "Murray, we're going to have Peace." He would say, "If we don't, I'm going to take the window instead of the elevator."

K: [Laughter] I feel the same way so,

B: Well, when Murray gets optimistic, I know things are all right. You saw his piece today?

K: No. I've got to read it.

B: It was in the trend of the ones I was writing while he was away.

K: Good, I'll read it later.

B: I hope you don't make a liar out of me.

K: Oh, we'll do our best

B: I appreciate your calling back.

K: Okay. Have a good trip. I'm delighted for you.

B: I am too. Thanks very much.

K: Bye.

B: Bye.

TELCOM

Jerry Schecter/Mr. Kissinger

9:30 p.m, December 14, 1972

S: Henry, how are you?

K: Okay.

S: Good. The only reason I wanted to call is I talked with Ron today.

K: Yeah. What did he say?

S: Well, he said he was going to talk to the President tonight or tomorrow morning and then he was also going to talk to you. And he said that you would have to decide what you wanted to do. I naturally told him that I thought that it would be nice if everybody in the White House from the top down sort of encouraged us on this project. And he said that he would try to help.

K: Yeah. Okay, I'll talk to him tomorrow.

S: Okay. Are you going to talk to all of us tomorrow?

K: Tomorrow or Saturday.

S: I see. How are you feeling?

K: Right now I feel exhausted.

S: I'll bet, I'll bet. I don't know how you do it because I'm feeling that way too and I didn't go through what you went through.

K: Well, if it all comes out all right, it will all be worth it.

S: Yeah. Well, I hope so.

K: And if it doesn't, you'll drop me from your cover so it will be even more worth it.

S: Oh, come on.

K: [Laughter]

S: Come on now. [Laughter] We have some scruples you know.

K: No, Hedley Donovan told me the only way I could get off the cover is to screw up these negotiations.

DREASIER

B. J. MANGUDAGAN 12/10/72

Approved 12/22/72

TELCON

Jerry Schecter/Mr. Kissinger

9:30 p.m., December 14, 1972

- 2 -

S: Yeah. Well, I'm sure you wouldn't do that.

K: So he's given me an idea. No.

S: No. [Laughter] That's too high a price to pay.

K: I agree with you. No, actually, Jerry, the thing that I find most touching is that -- You know, there is basically an adversary relations between the press and officials but I really think all you guys are pulling for us.

S: Well, we are.

K: No, I know it. I really feel it.

S: But I must say, boy; -- Well, there have been lots of dirty tricks in the last couple of weeks.

K: By whom?

S: I don't know. I mean, I was looking at that Helms ______ today and --

K: That Helms what?

S: Well, you know, that story that was leaked about Helms and then --

K: Yeah, but there wasn't an iota of truth in it.

S: I know but -- Well, that's beside the point now. [Laughter]

K: What else?

S: Well, this whole business about the Oriana Fallaci interview, which at some point we've got to discuss. There have been a lot of smoke about that.

K: Well, well, you know, what is inherently improbable in that interview is -- after all, I have a record of giving interviews for four and a half years without making a total utter ass of myself.

S: [Laughter] Right.

K: Why would I have done it with her?

S: She sure --

K: She sure killed me.

DECEMBER 14, 1972

TELCON

Jerry Schecter/Mr. Kissinger

9:30 p.m., December 14, 1972

- 3 -

S: [Laughter] Yeah. Well, maybe we can correct the record on some of that.

K: You know, I think the most merciful thing about that one is to forget it.

S: [Laughter] Yeah, yeah.

K: Okay, Jerry.

S: Okay, great. Listen, Henry, one thing -- At some point we've got to get together because I have been getting a lot of stuff from a lot of people including some stuff from the Vietnamese now about how they say the talks went, you know.

K: What do they say?

S: Well, they've got a whole version about your meeting with Thieu and the cables back and forth to Hanoi and you know, Haig's meeting with Thieu and that whole thing.

K: With Thieu?

S: Yeah.

K: Which Vietnamese, the North or South?

S: No, this is the South Vietnamese.

K: What do they say?

S: Well, I've got a whole kind of detailed thing.

K: Well, there's one version that I saw somewhere that I kept interrupting him.

S: [Laughter] This one has some juicier stuff than that in it.

K: Like what?

S: Well, you know, about when you let him see the draft.

K: What about when I let him see the draft?

S: Well, I mean, they say you wouldn't show him the draft.

K: Well, that's just a blatant lie. When I had it? When I came there?

UNCLASSIFIED

4

TELCON

- 4 -

Jerry Schecter/Mr. Kissinger

9:30 p.m., December 14, 1972

S: Well, no, they say it took two days before you got the draft and then he held it for two days and then there was --

K: When I got there?

S: No, not when you got there. That when you got there, I don't know whether you didn't have -- The way they say it, is that you didn't show it to them.

K: That's a flat total lie. He got it within an hour of my getting there

S: Well, that's what this thing has.

K: Well, look, for that we have 25 witnesses. Hell, we went over the whole draft the next morning at an NSC meeting -- at a Vietnamese NSC meeting. And it isn't true that he held it because all the members of the NSC had it. I mean, that's not something that can be discussed, that's a fact.

S: Well, okay. I mean, that's great.

K: Look, Bunker will confirm this.

S: Listen, Henry, I don't --

K: Abrams will confirm this.

S: All I need is you. I mean, I've got -- You know, I am in a position where I have nothing to work on and I've got -- I mean, I don't pick this stuff up on the street. These guys presumably, you know -- I mean, they don't have all the details to say the least. But look, I don't want to -- I know you are exhausted and I just --

K: Who puts that out? State?

S: No, no.

K: The Vietnamese?

S: Yeah. But at some point before all this gets away from us, I would like to talk to you if I could.

K: Okay.

S: Okay.

K: Right. Nice to talk to you. Bye.

S: Bye.

CLASSIFIED

TELCONE

9:43 a.m. 12/15/72

Kay Graham/Mr. Kissinger

HK: Hello?

KG: Hello, Henry.

HK: Kay, you're trying to ruin me.

KG: Oh listen, I am trying to be discreet, I left word that it was Mary Smith.

HK: Immediately when your name is announced the power in my phone goes off.

KG: (Laughing) Static--how are you Henry?

HK: I'm doing fine.

KG: What I wanted to say is that this is the quiet weekend at ______ anyway for Mary, Donny and me and if it in anyway suits you alone or with Nancy I would urge you.

HK: Aren't you nice. How far is it?

KG: It's 50 miles and an hour in driving.

HK: Maybe we'll come down Sunday

KG: Marvelous

HK: Can I call you?

KG: No--Donny and I are going to the football game alone which may suit you and may not, maybe you'd rather see somebody--if you'd rather see somebody, I'll invite somebody, if you don't want to see somebody I won't--I urge you Henry to

9:45 a.m. - 12/15/72

Kay Graham/Mr. Kissinger

K: Immediately when you name is mentioned the power in my phone goes off.

G: Henry, how are you.

K: I'm doing fine.

G: What I wanted to say was my -- and this is the quiet weekend at Glen Elby -- if it anyway for Mary, Donna and me, and if you aren't alone with Nancy, I would urge you.

G: It's 50 miles. About an hour.

K: Maybe we'll come down Sunday. Can I call you?

G: Donny and I are going to the football game on Sunday, so it may suit you and it may not. I don't know. May be you'd rather see somebody, I'll invite someone. If you don't want to see someone, I won't. urge you Henry. You could bring her down Saturday night. Just because it makes a much more restful thing to drive down and back, I'd love to have you, but it's not as much a rest. If you have to bring.... I'll put him up.

K: Yes, unfortunately I do.

G: It's all right, he can stay.

K: Do you think I could take a White House helicopter to your place.

G: You could really you know.

K: That would go over very well -- order a helicopter to Kay Graham's.

G: Oh yes. I'm told there is a rumor I want you to know that is going up and down the eastern seaboard. This may sound as if I'm kidding, but I'm not. But the reason Pete got fired was that he had been the (laughter, not understandable). I thought this was a joke because someone told me this from the Ford Foundation. Board meeting, you know, and I think ... my cousin who was there and then Bob told me and I said, Bob, they must have been kidding. He said that it is a serious rumor.

DAILY NEWSPAPER

August 12, 1972 - August 13, 1972

K: Well, on that basis, I should be out a long time ago.

G: Yes, and so should Elliot Richardson who was there with him, so I don't think it's quite true.

K: Well, I don't believe that's true.

G: Well, listen, one thing is that you don't need to tell me.

K: Well, I'll call you tomorrow and let you know.

G: What I suggest to you is that if you could come down whenever you are free Saturday, you must be free for 24 hours. I think you'd have a little bit of a rest. And we'll all go to bed like 9:30 or 10:00 or whatever you like, or we'll have a little chat, or watch a movie on television, or do nothing.

K: You're terrific, I'll call you tomorrow, or tonight.

G: All right, anytime. If you come, I'll need to know how many there are... you, Nancy, and a dick, or more.

K: I think maybe two dick's. They take care of themselves. There is a town nearby, isn't there.

G: Well, no. They'll have to stay in the house and I can just stick them in the children's rooms and I don't think they'd bother you.

K: How will I get you?

G: The Post can ring me. Or the number down there is 703-EM4-3141. But also the Post rings direct.

K: Many thanks, Kay. You're a good friend as always. Use a different name when you call me.

G: Yes. Morrie Smith from now on. I have a new friend in your office now anyway.

K: Oh, yes, I know -- Julie Pineau. Well Henry told me and you were pumping her for information.

G: Oh, yes. She has a lot I wanted. have

K: She does/a lot, but she won't give it to you.

G: She's charming and beautiful and a great addition.

K: She's a great girl.

DRAFT, ASSEMBLED

AUTOGRAPHED 12/2/76

BY JAMES B. SMITH

11:30 a.m. - 12/15/72

Director Helms/Mr. Kissinger

H: Good morning, Henry, how are you?

K: Okay, Dick, I guess I taught you that the price of disagreeing with me.

H: I'm glad your sense of humor is in good form, this morning.

K: The two members of the Administration for whom I had personal effects and have gotten fired. You haven't gotten fired but it's really ironical. I spent my time in Paris being quoted on the record, but then nobody would use about my .. that you're the best professional intelligence person I know, and, well, you know what happened.

H: Oh, sure, sure.

K: You know that you've stayed three years longer than the intentions.

K:

H: Yes, I think that's right. My soul is at peace. /Look, I had a talk with the President yesterday about your role in your new job, and also I want to talk with you about somethings we are thinking of doing. And I wondered if you could come over to see me at your convenience today. What's a good time for you? Is 2:30 possible?

H: Well, let me see. I've got a meeting in Erhlichman's office at 3:30. How long would this take do you think?

K: Oh, about a half an hour.

H: Suppose, do you think I could see you at 3:00?

K: I was going to see the Vice President at 3:00 but I'll see if I can shift him to 3:30, then you should come at 3:00. But you and I should not need more than a half an hour.

H: I'll look forward to seeing you then, but if that is not possible, I'll come earlier.

K: Good.

11:42 a.m. - December 15, 1972

Sidney Gresson/Dr. Kissinger

G: How are you, Henry. Are you still alive and kicking?

K: When you deal with two maniacal Vietnamese parties, if you aren't kicking, you're dead.

G: Did you see Flo over there?

K: No, she's too bright, I'm afraid.

G: She's too bright, but why are you discriminating against her?

K: Because all she needs is one tiny, little fact and she puts the rest together herself.

G: Henry, look when we talked a few months ago and we were going to get together and then you probably got screwed up running Middle East or something. I still want very much to talk with you. It has nothing to do with current affairs.

K: No, I know what you want you to talk to me about.

G: I'd like really to sit down and talk to you if we don't even go further than that.

K: No, we can't go further than that.

G: No. whatever convenient time you have. Whatever is convenient to you.

next

K: You want to come down sometime/week?

G: I'll fly down Monday morning, if it's any good.

K: Well, let's have lunch on Monday.

G: All right.

K: Come to my office and we can go to the Sans Souci because the food here is unbearable.

G: Well, all right, I'll pick you up at your office at 12:30?

K: Make it at 1:00.

G: Look forward very much

CLASSIFIED

Ron Ziegler/Dr. Kissinger

K: You want to come over here?

Z: No, we'll cover it on the phone briefly. I'm going to say you met with the President for two hours this morning. Right? And

K: I'm going to say that you have met with the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and also with the Secretary of State. When did you?

K: Yesterday afternoon.

Z: Anyone else?

K: Secretary Laird. I had breakfast with him this morning, and I'm seeing the Vice President this afternoon and Director of the Central Intelligence Agency.

Z: Can I say CI (?)

K: Yeah.

Z: Okay, now I'm going to say that Henry will probably be available for matters relating to negotiations in the near future -- I can't say exactly when.

K: Why say it?
(？)

Z: Kass/said it yesterday. Remember yesterday you said not to turn it off? I said I didn't have anything set.

K: He'll probably say after his consultation he may meet with you. Put it on that basis.

Z: Okay. I feel good about this, don't you?

K: I think it's the right thing to do.

Z: I do too, Henry. I really do.

K: I mean these guys could beat us to death. You know we could keep this charade going another three weeks.

Z: Yeah. I want to sit down when you get a chance this afternoon and give me a couple of ________.

K: Yes, I'd be eager to get that.

Z: I really would. I'll call you and come up and talk to you about that.

CLASSIFIED

TelCon

Amb. Dobrynin/Mr. Kissinger

11:45, Dec. 15, 1972

K: Anatol!

D: Oh, how are you?

K: Okay.

D: When are you going through the ocean? Doesn't difference in time bother you?

K: Why?

D: I mean when you go over, cause over the ocean I mean difference in time, eight hours--

K: Yesterday I was very, very tired.

D: You seem rather calm I should say.

K: Yes, as I said--

D: You are on a different note I should say.

K: Well, you misunderstood me.

D: You just want to show me a different mood come on.

K: You know, when you are faced with a situation that indicates its own direction it usually a very relaxing atmosphere.

D: I know you are rather well usually--

K: I would not recommend your clients to try to call on the President.

D: Well, I'm sure you know they are not going to make that kind of a recommendation.

K: No, but, if you want to get a feeling, you can read the text of the last day for example.

D: Of last--oh, I see. You show me tomorrow when I come--

K: You want to come over for it.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E012058
By: MWAPR 5/30/74

2

D: Well I think yes tomorrow show me.

K: Okay fine. Now the second thing is the President wanted to make sure is that your people, I'll be glad to go over the issues with you. But as you could have seen yesterday it isn't the issues, they change issues so fast that we can't solve them quickly enough. What we are trying to tell you is that you are really not being told the truth. But would you like a page of what we think the issues are?

D: I really would like because this is a point because my impressions sometimes they, I mean our friends, this is rather mixed up --

K: All that I would bet on Gromyko and Brezhnev is --

D: Yes, it is hard for Russia to understand but--

K: the main thing--

D: Main thing this one and your position this one.

K: For your own sake don't get yourself locked into a position that they tell you because it's now ______ what you told me. They are lying to you too. But you don't have to comment on it, but the facts you give me, you couldn't invent. I mean, you don't know enough about the negotiations to invent them. So it's hard to believe that they are giving this to you.

D: Well, this is the point, too, I should say, and this point you think it will be useful.

K: I will give them to you but be careful about, you know, he's going to have a horror story. The basic fact is we are ready to settle very quickly, and they are not. I mean that is the fact.

D: This is your--and there is a reservation?

K: There is no doubt of it. Every day that we narrow it, the next day they come in with four or five more issues. Now this particular excuse they use at any given time is really unimportant.

D: Yes, I understand. But as of today where we stand in your understanding?

K

K: I'll send it over this afternoon.

D: What do you feel, not one or two, make it five, six, seven, it's entirely up to you, I would really like to show Gromyko just what is it, as we are today, because if you give him two sides it is useful.

3

I understand it's not because--

K: You read the transcript of the last day's meeting, you will see that its irrelevant. But I will send it to you.

D: Yes, I will simply look out for it. You understand, it's not really I am asking for you giving me up but I think it's, I do feeling something better--

K: Yes, well incidentally the President on a personal note is very touched by your wife going *back there*. time they

D: Well she's going next time, by that/want to send some Christmas gift, rather my wife could take it.

K: Right.

D: If she is going there---

K: How long are you going to be gone?

D: Really I don't know, I intend to go around Monday now because then its the 20th 21st, 22nd and after all I don't know because Brezhnev wants me to receive, but whether I am eloquent or not for, -- it may be better for me to stay for vacation, or he might have some ideas to go for the President, at this particular answer, I don't know.

E: He actually thinks it would be useful. I think it would be very quiet here in January, and if you could consider for example to come here for a couple of days, say around the first of January and then go back to Moscow just so that we both have the work program.

D: Well, maybe this is idea. I don't think--

K: I don't think frankly unless you friends in Hanoi drive us to a point of no return, but that's you know.

D: I know *a river* of no return.

K: At any rate that wouldn't involve you. So I don't expect any major moves here.

D: That is my impression to because my relation, in general, is really international, except Vietnam. Nothing --

4

K: What I would like is that you--the only business you and I could do is to plan the ______ with us.

D: Yes, this is the point.

K: So that we could get the bureaucracy working and then you can go back to Moscow frankly for more of January.

D: Are you going for vacation yourself?

K: I will go myself as soon as Vietnam has broken one way or the other.

D: You can exchange your ______ for the full of January or you could do it and be on vacation too.

K: If it's still going in January we will exchange more than letters, believe me. (Laughter)

D: You just pit it in moth--that way (laughter) About your talk with Le Duc Tho when you are strolling along the park, I think---

K: Le Duc Tho thinks he's making a monkey out of me. Le Duc Tho thinks that if he can just ______ be nice to me that I'm so vain and then puts me on television and he smiles and thinks we are all nicely paranoid.

D: Yes, Mr. Duc Tho looks and says -- look here, everything is all right there because just look how they are going (laughter), so you see how it could be.

K: Of course. I'm convinced that a member of the Politburo of the Vietnamese communist party will give me terms because he likes me a lot better than anyone else. Don't you think that's reasonable?

D: Yeah--

(end of tape)

5

D: --- is this specific announcement on the last--

K: We are playing with the idea -- maybe I will have an informal
meeting with the President at some point.

D: Oh, I see.

K: Well I might have a press conference, I haven't decided yet, I
doubt it. I know there will be an official announcement.

D: I understand. But just about---

K: About what?

D: you are thinking along the line of a press conference--on the record or off the record?

K: I haven't really decided yet what we are going to do.

D: Okay, Henry, then I will see you tomorrow then.

K: I will see you tomorrow.

D: 8:30?

K: 8:30, I'll let you have that transcription to--glance at it. You
won't understand it but you will see that it's ---

D: I'm like your friend Breshnev, I don't understand what you--

K: Well no, because it refers to articles in the agreement. I will also
give you a copy of the text as it now stands.

D: This I think it will be a good idea.

K: Okay.

D: Yes, it is understood but only in your particular structure of the
phase--

K: Right.

D: Otherwise I think we are trying to do ----

K: If at all a rationale discussion___

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E012055
By: N.A.P.S. 00304

6

D: What you are going to give me is only for our own information. We won't argue with them. It was a pleasant approach--he approach me, we will have a reading, a really expansive talk, that's all. Like our Mr. Breshnev, my presence here is not arguing but taking what they say - quote, unquote.

K: Yeah.

D: So this is for our understanding--

K: I really don't know what we could ask you to do because--

D: No, no, this is what we discuss yesterday really it is difficult for us to do -- to go and argue with them about one point means they say their position is different and at the same time things not to be the same as you. ______________ send the letter and just say they agree, but what you sent of the text they have to sign it?

K: That's right.

D: This is rather small detail but quite a detail as you say.

K: They could sign the text without a Preamble. They can sign every obligation--

D: They could sign the text without saying they agreeing and then you may always interpret it in principle but agreeing, but they could say I don't like, I will not agree--for the whole text.

K: Exactly.

D: Well whatever. May make strike them, make measures in this way. Unless our Ambassador may make some provision but I doubt it because of what we are talking. Okay, Henry, I will see you tomorrow. Bye, bye.

K: Bye.

2

K: All that I would say on Gromyko and Brezhnev is --

K: the main thing--

K: For your own sake don't get yourself locked into a position that they tell you because it's now ______ what you told me. They are lying to you too. But you don't have to comment on it, but the fact is you give me, you couldn't invent. I mean, you don't know enough about the negotiations to invent them. So it's hard to believe that they are giving this to you.

K:

BROAFILED

AUG 19 1969 22:12:27

BorgWarrior DQ101/01/05

D: Yes, I will simply look out for it. You understand, it's not really I am asking for you giving me up but I think it's, I do feel something better--

K: Yes, well incidentally the President on a personal note is very touched by your wife going through some time they

time they

K: Right.

D: If she is going there--

D: Really I don't know, I intend to go around Monday now because then it's the 26th list, 22nd and after all I don't know because Brezhnev wants me to receive, but whether I am eloquent or not for, -- it may be better for me to stay for vacation, or he might have some ideas to go for the President, at this particular answer. I don't know.

H: He actually thinks it would be useful. I think it would be very quiet here in January, and if you could consider for example to come here for a couple of days, say around the first of January and then go back to Moscow just so that we both have the work program.

D: Well, maybe this is idea. I don't think so.

D: I know of ______ of no return.

CLASSIFIED

01/10/87 8:21:27 AM

3

4

K: What would like is that you--the only business you and I could do is to plan the ______ with us.

D: Yes, this is the point.

D: You just put it in moth--that way (laughter) About your talk with Le Duc The when you are strolling along the park, I think---

K: Le Duc The thinks he's making a monkey out of me. Le Duc The thinks that if he can just put me on television and he smiles and thinks we are all nicely paranoid.

D: Yes, Mr. Duc The looks and says -- look here, everything is all right there because just look how they are going (laughter), so you see how it could be.

D: Yeah--

(end of tape)

DECEMBER 1967

AUGUST 1967

MAR 1968

5

D: Oh, I see.

K: About what?

K: I will see you tomorrow.

D: 8:30?

K: Okay.

K: Right.

DRE ASSIGNED

Author: EQ12958

B:8P SMVD D110103

6

D: What you are going to give me is only for our own information. We won't argue with them. It was a pleasant approach--he approach me, we will have a reading, a really expansive talk, that's all. Like our Mr. Breshnov, my presence here is not arguing but taking what they say - quote, unquote.

K₁: Yeah.

D₁: So this is for our understanding--

K₂: I really don't know what we could ask you to do because--

D₂: No, no, this is what we discuss yesterday really it is difficult for us to do -- to go and argue with them about one point means they say their position is different and at the same time things not to be the same as you. ______________ send the letter and just say they agree, but what you sent of the text they have to sign it?

K₃: That's right.

D₄: This is rather small detail but quite a detail as you say.

K₅: They could sign the text without a Preamble. They can sign every obligation--

D₆: They could sign the text without saying they agreeing and then you may always interpret it in principle but agreeing, but they could say I don't like, I will not agree--for the whole text.

K₇: Exactly.

D₈: Well whatever. May make strike them, make measures in this way. Unless our Ambassador may make some provision but I doubt it because of what we are talking. Okay, Henry, I will see you tomorrow. Bye, bye.

K₉: Bye.

TELCOM

Mr. Kissinger/Mrs. Cerf

12:05 p. m. 12/15/72

HK: How sweet of you to call.

un-

C: Well, I thought of you and I know how disappointed and I am happy you are with you announcement.

HK: Well, I think it will still work out.

G: I am sure it will--I know you'd rather still be another announcement.

HK: That's for sure.

to

C: I just wanted to say that I love you and I know it's going /work out.

HK: Aren't you great.

C: I'm not, you are.

HK: It's been so long since I've seen you.

C: I know and I resent it. Very very much.

HK: So do I -- when are you coming down.

C: I'm not coming down--when are you coming up.

HK: When this present frenzy eases, I'll come up and let's have dinner.

C: I am going out to Palm Springs two days after Christmas--

HK: Oh, I may be out there for a couple of days--

C: Really? I'm going to Franks on the 27th.

HK: I'm thinking of going out on the 26th and stay 4 or 5 days.

C: That's exactly what we sort of will be doing. That's wonderful.

HK: Then I'll see you there.

C: That's perfect. In any case, then we'll make the plans to get together in an evening in New York--for some relaxation for my feelow--

HK: That'd be terrific--you're a good friend.

C: I'm a very loving friend--I don't bother you--I'm always here if you need anything.

DRLASSIFIED

Autograph, E012.958-

B-80/MAR 06/10/97

TELCOM

Mr. Kissinger/Secretary Laird
(Secure Phone) 12/15/72 12:05 p.m.

SL: The last wave is out of there. We lost one more. Another B-52 was shot down.

HK: Oh really?

SL: Two for every 100 strike isn't bad. We expected that--I think I told you that.

HK: Yeh, but we actually lost three.

SL: The other one got back. We lost two total, a crew of 12 and 1 F-111 thus far.

HK: And are we going to do this Tacair tomorrow?

SL: No, because of the weather--we are going back with the 52's and F111's.

HK: Isn't the weather good tonight.

SL: No and we will go back within 24 hours with 60 more B-52's and we told them to go with minimum of 60 and try for 90 and then the F111's. If the weather would clear we would go in with tacair. As you know these 16 targets that we are hitting are the only ones that are acceptable for this kind of bombing. There'll be some other bridges and other targets we should open up and hit.

HK: Have the 52's hit those targets or tacair--can a 52 hit a bridge?

SL: The F111's can be put on the bridges. Smart bombs need visual because they are guided by beam. We will let them go tomorrow where they are going--and hope for clear weather.

HK: That's fine with me. Then let them hit a few additional targets. The screaming is starting--Symington is coming after me.

SL: State wants briefed why the losses are so high--they think the loss rate is high, but for the number of bombers we are sending that ratio isn't bad. As you know we lost two crews that were on other 52 is burning and on fire but we got the crew. We recovered a crew of six. We'll give you a full briefing tomorrow, Henry.

HK: I appreciate that. I'll tell the President tonight.

CLASSIFIED

Authored 12/26-10/01/72
B-52

TELCONE

Mr. Kissinger / Governor Reagan:

12/15/72 12:35 p.m.

RR: Henry?

HK: Ron, how are you?

RR: Pretty good.

HK: I saw your television show the other night--I didn't enjoy it anymore than you did.

RR: But I sure had some familiar and nostalgic notes out of it. I called because this isn't just curiosity or wanting to find out anything, but Henry at the risk of being very presumptuous, and not knowing all of the facts of course because only those of you there who are handling them do know them--can I tell you something that made me feel nostalgic --

HK: Sure.

RR: As I say--you've been there and maybe this is totally unnecessary--but when you were talking of course I remembered Penh wa Huang (sp) which for all those years, we had the same problem with them, but way back in the 40's Penh wen Swuam (?) turned out not to be a surprise to me--here in Hollywood and I'll brief this as much as I can--we had a great cataclysmic upheaval under the guise of a jurisdictional strike--

HK: Yeh.

RR: We actually had, although we never used the word opening openly and didn't do any redbaiting, we had a small group of Hollywood unions that had come under total communist domination and they used this jurisdictional gimmick to bring about this attempt to close down the motion picture industry. The actors were the key--if they could keep us out obviously the studios closed down--we continued to go to work. And I was President of the Guild at the time and Henry for seven months--I'm not exaggerating--twice a day--seven days a week, I led a group of actors that met with the leadership of these communist unionists trying to arrive at a solution that would save the business and I have got to tell you that when--you even used the right number--when you said 15 the other night--I used to come home night after night scattered through those seven months and say hey I think it's all set--we met again at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning to just finalize it and I think we've done it. At 10 the next morning, they'd walk in with their lawyers and all of a sudden there'd be 15 new demands layed out on the table that we'd never heard of before and it was always as

BROA.BSSED

Autobus F 12 26 72 - 85

BASTNASSERD 10/05

Page 2

you said--just beyond reach and Henry this has been haunting me
the whole weekend to relate this experience--evidently the communists
do business the same way--because the only way it was finally solved
at the end of those seven months is toward the end of the 7th, we
finally awoke to what was going on they they were just going to keep
on negotiating and striking and stalling ad infinitum to the place where
we just finally said to hell with it--there is no further distance we
can go at all and they are either in or out of the motion picture
business and that's the way it's going to be and the way it is going to
wound up was they were out of the motion picture business and those
unions to this day are still out of the picture business and we are just
closed it out and went to work and kept the studios going.

HK: Yeh.

RR: And what I just couldn't help but tell you this because they like meetings
Maybe this is all useless in view of all the facts that you have but I
had to get it off my chest.

HK: No I appreciate this--I want you to know incidentally, we have resumed
bombing North Vietnam today.

RR: Ahhh--

HK: And after it hits the press--it won't for a couple of hours--anything
you could say supporting us would be appreciated--

RR: Oh listen--

in

HK: I am assuming you are/agreement with it.

RR: Last night we had a party and couple of people got me in a corner and
said look just play if I were king, what would you do right now if you
were there--and I said I'll answer the question but on one condition
that you recognize we don't know the facts that the President and
Henry have--I said--granted that if things are as they appear in the
news--if there are no circumstances about which we don't know--if
they are just the way they look, I said I'd put the biggest fleet of
B-52's they'd ever seen and just blow the hell out of the section of
North Vietnam and just keep eyeballing them, making no more
concessions and let this happen day after day until finally they recognize
the only thing to do is put down the paper and sign this thing.

HK: Well that's what we are doing.

RR: Wonderful--it brightens my day.

HK: I was afraid you'd oppose it.

RR:

UNCLASSIFIED

Autumn 2012 9-58--
Best Copy Due 10/03

Page 2

RR: The hell--you haven't been out here often enough--you have got to come and visit--incidentally are you coming out here for the holidays--

HK: I may come to Palm Springs for a few days between Christmas and New Year's

RR: If you come into town let's know, we'd love to see you.

HK: Good, I'd love to see you--I'll be sure to let you know.

RR: I'll be shouting out loud and long about what you are doing. Is it like our motion picture unions?

HK: That's what it looks like to me.

RR: They play this game

HK: Well they're going to try it but not for long--something has to give.

RR: Make it be them.
They play a game in which first of all in which they have no pressures on them from the standpoint of humanitarianism or the lives of their people because they don't even consider that and they just feel we do. Twenty-five years at the negotiating tables --don't get tired --when you finally come down to the nub, the side that wins ~~that~~ is the side ______ than the other fellow.

HK: That's what usually happens.

RR: I'm delighted to hear of it Good to talk to you.

DRI-ASSIFIED

Autograph: EQ12.958--

B&W Pbk. 8x10 6/10/03

Telcon
Ron Ziegler/Dr. Kissinger

12/15/72 - 12:52

Z: Henry?

K: Yes Ron.

Z: The __________ is about ready to go with a story. Before we get into the press line, let's talk about the facts. That the President sent you to see Zumwalt about a month ago and tell him that he would be removed as Chief of the Navy because of the racial prob.wantedReston.

K: Total nonsense.

Z: They say they have it from Hill sources who are willing to be quoted. You never did do that did you?

K: I haven't seen Zumwalt in two months - I didn't see Zumwalt with any such message.

Z: Did you discuss this? The __aspect__ of his leaving?

K: I never discussed his leaving and I don't think he is leaving.

Z: Well, fine that's what I wanted to know.

K: So it is a flat totally, total untruth - I once discussed with him at Ed's(?) request what he planned to do about this racial problem. what was it on the Constellation?

Z; Yes.

K: But he called me to explain it to me.

Z: But you didn't talk about him leaving.

K: He was telling me what the situation was, I really wouldn't get into it.

Z: Okay fine.

K: I would just say that I have not seen Zumwalt in two months, I have never discussed his leaving with him in any form whatsoever.

Z: I'll see you a little later this afternoon.

K: Right.

DREASSIFIED

Autobiog. FEB 29 72 - B. E. St. Vincennes 01/10/72

TelCon
Amb. Dobrynin/Mr. Kissinger

5:41 pm, December 15, 1972

K: Anatol!

D: Yes, Henry, how are you?

K: How are you?

D: Thank you very much.

K: I sent you over that list just in case Le Duc Tho--

D: He just arrived in Moscow.

K: Just crying on your shoulders, huh?

[Laughter]

D: I'm sure he will. Well, he's here. Next time I will wait until you go to Moscow. I will show to Moscow how he does the, really, talks to you.

K: Oh, Le Duc Tho---

D: Okay, when he arrive in Moscow. I will come and tell & show the Moscow to him how nice he is and so on, then I think he will watch with you then his realism,(laughter) and he will change his command I'm sure (laughter) you understand the background?

K: Yes I understand it very well, very well.

D: Or maybe he will be hearing some music with some members of the government and so in that way confident situation of this particular realism (laughter).

K: Look, I will send it to you--are you going to be in another hour, we are retyping it.

D: Okay, I will be here another hour, yes.

K: Good, by 7:00 you'll have it.

D: That's all right.

K: That way, they can have it tomorrow morning.

D: Yeah, tomorrow morning. Well, thank you very much, Henry.

DECLASSIFIED

E012058
Date: 06/04/90

Authority
By: MW

2

K: Okay, Anatol, and I'll see you tomorrow morning for breakfast.

D: Yes, 8:30.

K: In the Map Room.

D: For breakfast, or how, or sometime they call it---

K: I wouldn't have you come here as a member of the Central Committee for a prayer meeting.

D: Well, I don't know, maybe it would be interesting your kind of prayer, because I'm sure you have not heard those prayers, maybe an international prayer or many things.

K: Well, we can try it to see whether we can agree.

D: Will you prepare the third draft please, for tomorrow

K: Okay, bye.

D: Bye, bye, thank you.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority EO 12958
By W.N. Smith Date 10/24/84

TelCon

Amb. Dobrynin/Mr. Kissinger

5:41 pm, December 15, 1972

K: Anatol!

D: Yes, Henry, how are you?

K: How are you?

D: Thank you very much.

K: I sent you over that list just in case Le Duc The--

D: He just arrived in Moscow.

[Laughter]

K: Oh, Le Duc The--

D: Okay, when he arrive in Moscow, I will come and talk & show the Moscow to him how nice he is and so on, then I think he will watch with you then his realism, (laughter) and he will change his command I'm sure (laughter) you understand the background?

D: That's all right.

TelCon

Henry Hubbard/Mr. Kissinger

5:45, Dec. 15, 1972

H: How are you Henry?

K: Okay.

H: How are you feeling?

K: I'm okay.

H: Not to take too long, we are tempted to write a very highly anticipatory piece this week. Not just exactly what will happen, but a decisive time is coming. You've spent an awful lot of time with the President and you've had a great many meetings and it certainly suggests how, as Scotty Reston suggested today, that the President is engaging now. Will take necessary steps. Is that kind of a column appropriate, or are we speculating too much.

K: Well it depends what steps you're suggesting he's going to take.

H: We're not. We're not going to be so foolhardy to suggest--it's just that he will try to be very decisive. To bring this thing to a completion. As far as we suggest anything, it will be that he'll privately or publicly pretty well accept what's been negotiated in Paris and present it to the South Vietnamese for their approval in a forceful way. I'm assuming that Haig will be gone in a day or so, is that true.

K: I don't know. They don't tell me anything. He free wheels all over the place. When do you close.

H: We close tomorrow. Are you going to brief tomorrow?

K: I may.

H: Well, will you be able to give anything substantive about where do we go from here.

K: No. Why don't you wait until after and then you'll get a better feel for where we stand.

H: All right. Are the two Reston columnists pretty much on the mark. I know they're from Paris.

K: Yeah, but the second one--the first one he have had a brief talk with me but really not quite on the subject he wrote. The second one he did entirely on his own.

CLASSIFIED

AUG 27 1972 5:01PM

New York, N.Y.

2

H: But he did make the point about--just try to put everything together as best we can. The question of legality or whatever it is, is a sticking point with the South Vietnamese. The Sovereignty is the-- were we far off if adopt that.

K: Well, I'd stay away from the sovereignty word.

H: Well, that we figure is too strong a word, but just the--hell it's all in the context of a political future of South Vietnam.

K: From the point of view of not having a legal basis for constant North Vietnamese intervention, yes.

H: It's a question of political legitimacy of the North Vietnamese in South Vietnam. How many of the PRG are in the North Vietnamese troops.

K: The PRG is something else from the North Vietnamese.

H: Okay. Well I'll just look forward to the briefing tomorrow.

K: I think you may do that. You're just translating it.

H: From the original Vietnamese, huh.

K: That's right.

H: You don't have David Engel, can you think without him anymore.

K: Not really.

H: Okay. [Tape change here] Okay, we'll wait until tomorrow.

K: Okay.

TRANSCRIPT

TELCOM

Nick Thimmesch/Mr. Kissinger

6:15 p.m., December 15, 1972

T: Hello, Henry, your secretary has demoted you to Mister.

K: No, that's a promotion. I know how PHDs are acquired.

T: All right. Sir, just a few things I want to have straight in my mind here before I sit down and try to put this together. When you discussed the business about intervention, I gather then that withdrawal of North Vietname troops is not in the agreement then.

K: Well, we've never said it was.

T: Yeah, but I just wanted to make absolutely sure that that was not in the agreement and that... was understood that they would be allowed to keep their troops there but --

K: But not to reinforce them.

T: Yeah. But the issue is then intervention meaning they could take military actions.

K: Well, I just don't want to go any further into it.

T: ... intervention means whether it's --

K: Well, a constant right to intervene. There's a difference between -- Well, I just don't want to go into this. Between what will have to be a process of attrition and a process of constant right to intervene in South Vietnamese affairs.

T: Political and military?

K: Yes.

T: Okay. All right. Well, I've got that one straightened out then. Now on this supervisory body, is the question there over the makeup of it or the role and the rules of operation or --

K: More the role and rules of operation.

T: The role and rules of operation. There's no dispute over the nations that have been mentioned; there's none of those are unacceptable I gather than.

K: Well, that -- No.

T: Okay.

TELCOM

Nick Thimmesch/Mr. Kissinger

6:15 p.m., December 15, 1972

- 2 -

K: But I really, Nick, cannot go into the agreement in detail.

T: All right. Well, I just needed things though that were said between us; I just wanted to get them clear in my mind.

K: Right.

T: Here's something I did not bring up and I should have. The Cambodians recently have made statements to the effect they don't press the North Vietnamese on this. Can you tell me anything about that?

K: Well, I think the reservoir of trust in the North Vietnamese is not unlimited. To put it mildly.

T: All right. That's across the board or is that just Cambodia?

K: Well, I think that's -- I don't think the South Vietnamese trust the North Vietnamese particularly. But we're not asking anyone to trust them.

T: Right. Now on this business about a possible trip to Saigon by yourself, is that a decision as to whether to go or when to go?

K: That's a decision that has to be made yet by the President.

T: Yeah.

K: Who is to go and when.

T: Oh, it's not clear then that you will go alone?

K: Well, that will become apparent before your column can be printed.

T: All right. Now you talked about six months and one year -- you used those two terms there -- you would never make a decision without planning on six months to one year -- it would last six months to one year. Now that's a little vague in my notes here.

K: No, no; I said it doesn't do us any good to have an agreement that falls apart in a year.

T: Oh, so any agreement that would make you would want reasonable assurance that it would last at least one year.

K: Oh, no, don't pay any attention to that. That was just a figure of speech.

TELCOM

Nick Thimmesch/Mr. Kissinger

6:15 p.m., December 15, 1972

- 3 -

T: I see. The time doesn't mean anything then?

K: Well, except that it should last indefinitely.

T: Yeah. Okay. That's kind of a qualitative statement rather than quantitative then?

K: That's right.

T: This is just a little technical thing that I'm curious about, how do you keep in contact with Hanoi? Is that done through --

K: I can't tell you that.

T: Is it by radio or telephone or what is it?

K: No, not telephone. And not radio either but we have very good communications.

T: All right. It's direct contact though. I mean, in terms of telecommunication you have direct contact with them?

K: No, not from here.

T: No, all right. Now is there to be a press briefing tomorrow?

K: We're thinking of it.

T: You're thinking about it?

K: Right.

T: Okay. If there is a briefing, how will you be identified there? Are they going to have --

K: No, no, I'll be quoted.

T: You will be quoted?

K: Yeah.

T: Will you be covering the same material you and I discussed?

K: I doubt it.

T: You doubt it?

TELCOM

Nick Thimmesch/Mr. Kissinger

6:15 p.m., December 15, 1972

- 4 -

K: Yeah.

T: All right. Well, then I'll keep this as masked as possible then,

K: Right. If it should be different, then you can of course use it more freely.

T: Yeah. Well, my problem is that they will have to mail this tonight you see.

K: Well, we haven't definitely decided yet what I should do and how.

T: I see. But there's no decision that you will definitely brief the press tomorrow?

K: No, although it's sort of leaning towards it.

T: Leaning towards it at 11 o'clock.

K: I guess 11:30.

T: 11:30. All right.

K: Okay, Nick.

T: Thank you for calling back and again I say it, I don't like to press you all the time. I mean, I -- when I ask to see you or --

K: No, no; you can be sure when you ask to see, I'll try to do it in a reasonable time.

T: That's why I try to be stearing that way.

K: Right.

T: Okay.

K: Bye.

wgh

DRE ASSIGNED

Authentic 02/2958-

D: 02/MAY/1972 9:01:01

TELCONE

Mr. Kissinger/Taft Schreiber

12/15/72

TS: Good morning, Henry.

HK: Taft, how are you?

TS: Fine. Say I talked to Ted Cummings and he is very happy to have
you at the house.

HK: Good.

TS: Also we played golf with Lynn Firestone and he said, gee if he's
coming down, tell him we have a party on the 28th--the Annabergs
are coming over and some more--not a big one then he said tell
him about it. I said call and invite him yourself--he said well if
he's coming out naturally if he's available nicky will call or we'll
call him. I thought I would give you at least Cummings home number
and have you aide call him.

HK: Right. That's very nice of you.

TS: its 213-277-2168.

HK: Right.

TS: And that way if you're going down for the 26th. You can meet wtih
Lou there the 27, 28, 29th--how long would you stay?

HK: Either until the 31st or 2nd, I haven't decided yet.

TS: I just want to tell you where the action is--the Anabergs are giving the
New Year's party down there--we're invited my doctor and his wife
to take them to Hawaii--so they are going as our guests and I couldn't
call that off--but this is going to be the social event of the year down
there. So if you're going to be there, I'll pass word to let them know
where you are and that you're going to be there.

HK: Good that's great.

TS: You might as well be in all the action.

HK: Might as well--you're my social secretary

TS: Listen, I've been accused of everything. --how do you feel Henry.

HK: I'm in great shape.

DRL ASSIGNED
Author: E212958-
Date: 12/15/72
Title: B-8

Page 2

TS: I'll see you soon--I've go the dubious honor of being an elector today so I've go to go up to San Francisco and cast a ballot.

HK: Right.

TS: My contribution to society is nothing but a plane trip today.

HK: I'll talk to you soon.

HS: All right--you have you aide-call or you call f ed youself and I'm sure you'd love to go.

HK: Thank you Taft.

DECLASSIFIED

Anycopy F 856 22127

5010.9 1-10/94 MR 10/94 ja B

TELCONE

Mr. Kissinger/John Scali

12/16/72 1:30 p.m.

HK: ...... Well, it's going to be a privilege to work with you and
you'll do a great job.

JS: I will do my best and I think you'll find that I can work very
closely with you.

HK: Oh, if I hadn't thought that, you wouldn't be there but I know we
can work very closely and I expect to work with you also on a
back channel basis

JS: Well, I'm at your command.

HK: Terrific. It will be marvelous and congratulations--it's good
for the country.

JS: Thank you.

EXLASSIFIED

Autograph, E012958

B:SF May 13 1973

TELCOM

Mr. Kissinger/Kay Graham

12/16/72 2:45 p.m.

HK: Kay, hello, I was going to call you.

KG: No guts? (laughing) No guts, Henry?

HK: (laughing) Of course no guts, do you think I want to go the way of Pete?

KG: (laughing uproarously)

HK: I don't have any independent income.

KG: Harvard wants you back Henry.

HK: Yeh, I don't know, I can't live on that anymore--I need a university that gives me my own airplane.

KG: (laughing uproarously)

HK: There's a White House dinner tonight that I had forgotten about--

KG: Oh well that settles that.

HK: For the old and new cabinet--it's going to be a happy little group--

KG: You'd be better off down here.

HK: That's with some with daggers in their backs and some with knives in their fronts

KG: I'd think you'd go anywhere to escape that.

HK: I turned it down and I was given a command performance.

KG: If you could by any chance drive down tomorrow--(I bet I could get Bob or Stu or somebody--you know I am little worried--

HK: Oh for God sake's that's insane--That's not--really that's no problem at all.

KG: You sure?

HK: Kay the day that somebody selects my social contacts for me, I quit here.

OFFICE TELEPHONE

DECLASSIFIED

Author: F. D. 12-26-65

B: SMITH, J. O. 1-65

Page 2

KG: I know but it's sort of silly you know--

HK: That is no factor at all. And in fact why don't you invite me for dinner and I'll prove it to you. ---

KG: Tomorrow night. ? Oh you mean for dinner party--

HK: No it doesn't have to be a dinner party--

KG: I am having dinner with Bob tomorrow night because Marge is alone if you by any chance want to join us.

HK: I will come by after nine--

KG: Okay--It's historic--

HK: Bob McNamara?

KG: Yeh.

HK: Well if I'm not--

KG: We were going to go to the movies and then have dinner--

HK: Oh, can I join you?

KG: Yeh.

HK: What time are you going to the movies?

KG: We were going to go at 6 and then eat--we'll wait for you--

HK: I'll just call you, when will you be back?

KG: I come back in the afternoon Sunday--

HK: I'll call you in the afternoon tomorrow.

KG: Okay and if you want to join us; we'll suit our time to your time.

HK: Good. Marvelous and I'll see you tomorrow then. Bye.