DECLASSIFIED
E.O. 12958, Sect. 3.6

By. 5 NARA, Date 5/26

TELCONE
Rogers/Kissinger

11:33 a.m.

3/26/71

R: I wanted to check --

K: I have a few nitpicks. On Page 1 -- I think it's a good letter and I will not bleed on anyone -- where you say pragmatic improvements I would say concrete rather than pragmatic.

R: That's fine.

K: That may give the idea we don't mean our proposal.

R: Pragmatic is the wrong word there anyway.

K: On the next page in fourth paragraph ? ? ? ? ? ? . That's what ______ and in the next where it says apply to I would make it lead to. Keep suggesting we want an agreement. That's what Brandt needs. Otherwise the only other suggestion is next to last paragraph where you say could you contribute to alternate (?) resolution. I doubt we will have a resolution and we -- leave out alternate and say contribute to the vital issues of our time. It may not hurt and may help.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority E101258F
By C. NARASIMHA RAO Date 03/26/71

TELECON

Mr. Kissinger/Ambassador Dobrynin

3:32 p. m., March 26, 1971

K: Anatoliy, how are you?

D: I thought you were on your way.

K: I'm leaving in a few hours. You are working very actively
today.

D: I am preparing for my way home.

K: Look, I want to clean up the items from yesterday. I gave you one answer already. On the access formulation, we will review our formulations and will carefully compare them with yours to see to what extent they are, in fact, in accord.

D: Our two Ambassadors could do that meanwhile.

K: On the formulation, we gave you and the formulation you gave
back.

D: Your last proposal?

K: I will have that reviewed in Bonn and presumably our two
Ambassadors can take a look at it.

D: It's better not to mention it for the time-being?

K: This is something I can tell Vorontsov [while you are away?]
The access question can be discussed by our Ambassadors. Secondly,
on the other points, on the committees and on the party, I can only
repeat what I said before -- if we can make progress on access, we will
make every effort to move toward your position. We don't like the
phrase "far enough." We don't know what it means.

D: You will use your formula?

K: We will make every effort to move toward your position. We
will -- in the spirit of what I have already told you.

D: They mentioned to me in connection with SALT that I promised
to give you a reply before I leave Washington. Where can I reach you.

K: In San Clemente. We are leaving today at 5:00. You can call
me in San Clemente. Call the White House -- they will find me.

3:32 p.m., March 26, 1971

K: (cont'd) If you have something before, I will send Colonel
Kennedy to pick it up -- whatever answer you have.

D: If I receive anything before 5:00, I will call you.

K: If it's after that time, you can call Colonel Kennedy. Haig
will be with me. Colonel Kennedy can pick it up and send it to me.
If I have any question, I will call you.

D: Should I call on your usual telephone? If I don't receive it in
a half-hour, I will call Colonel Kennedy. Have a nice trip.

K: You, too. I hope we will do some constructive work when you
return. That is certainly our attitude.

D: It is mutual.

lds

DECLASSIFIED

Authority

By

CARA Date 03-01

By NARA, Dale 5/26

TELECON

3:32 p.m., March 26, 1971

K: Anatoliy, how are you?

K: On the formulation we gave you and the formulation you gave back.

D: Your last proposal?

D: You will use your formula?

By NARA. Date 5/26

Mr. Kissinger/Ambassador Dobrynin
3:32 p.m., March 26, 1971

- 2 -

D: It is mutual.

lds

DECLASSIFIED

Authority E012587

By: CNARA Date: 03/26/71

*

TELECON

4:23 p.m., March 26, 1971

[after receipt of note delivered by
Sokolov to Colonel Kennedy]

K: Anatoliy?

D: You received it? I just pulled it from the telegram.

K: Anatoliy, where do we go from here?

D: Where do you want to go? Before I go home... Exactly what it said was in my telegram. It was a quote.

K: Our view is this. They should agree on the principle of the limitation and what the limitation should contain.

D: The principle?

K: NCA against NCA or Safeguard against NCA should be settled first. When the negotiations start...

D: In Vienna?

K: First to be agreed upon is what the limitation is.

D: Limitation on offensive weapons?

K: No, on defensive.

D: On ABM?

K: What is to be limited.

D: You mean the sites?

K: They should agree on whether it should be sites -- Moscow and Washington, or what. That is the question that should be settled first.

D: They have now to begin with the discussion about the idea of a separate agreement -- to discuss as of now the major points of that agreement.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority E01258
By CHIARA Date 6/1/87

4:23 p.m., March 26, 1971

K: But when we begin discussing an agreement, then we want site-by-site to discuss the principles of a "freeze."

D: When they come to that one, they discuss freezing things, as you mentioned before?

K: We have this bureaucratic problem. In order to trigger this, we would prefer an exchange of letters or something on the order of a Presidential statement to which you agree. Nobody knows about this position yet.

D: If you don't mind my repeating, it will be this way: first, as of now, they will begin in principle. You will send a telegram to yours and we will send one to ours.

K: Not yet. My proposal is we have to have some formal way to trigger this.

D: An exchange of letters or some statement?

K: And as soon as that exchange of letters is done, then we will send the instructions.

D: You gave the letter last time. We will give to you... Before the last letter, both sides accept in principle.

K: I understand. May I call you tonight when I get out there? I can talk to the President on the plane.

D: Today or tomorrow morning?

K: About 11:00 Washington time.

D: 11:00 is all right with me.

K: I will have discussed it with the President -- and I will have it in front of me.

D: Instead of the "Soviet side," say both sides.

K: We will discuss it tonight.

D: After 11:00?

K: After 10:00.

D: After 11:00 would be better.

ids

By. NARA, Dato 5/26

TELECON

4:23 p.m., March 26, 1971

K: Anatoliy?

D: The principle?

D: In Vienna?

K: No, on defensive.

D: On ABM?

K: What is to be limited.

D: You mean the sites?

By NARA, Dato 5/26

Mr. Kissinger/Ambassador Dobrynin
4:23 p.m., March 26, 1971

D: Today or tomorrow morning?

D: After 11:00?

K: After 10:00.

ids

DECLASSIFIED

By CHIARA DATE 6/1/68

2

D: I will pass this along to Moscow. I will be there myself on Monday. No, I cannot check it tomorrow because it is Saturday and no one will be there. You know it is the first week of the Congress to begin. For me it will be difficult to force members of the government to look at this. I will try to do my best and get an answer for you. I am meeting on Tuesday with Gromyko. Even he is involved with the Congress and lots of guests. You can understand the difficulty that this problem exists.

K: Yes. We are prepared to give instructions to start discussions on ABM - the nature of agreement and how many radars, etc but we must simultaneously discuss the freeze issue.

D: What to discuss. Yes. Freezing I am just putting some thoughts down ....... What kind of freezing. I will send a telegram to my government.

KK

K: Let me ask you as long as we have this conversation. Next part of it. Not many people know about this in our government and we must think of how to get them started. It can be done in two ways. By an exchange of letters. The other is that the President at a press conference could respond to a question along the lines of Do you still believe in the link between offensive and defensive weapons? Then he says something like I am willing to make an agreement as long as freezing is in it. You could say through TASS that is a good idea.

D: I don't know. Yes I know you are giving an example.

K: This way we could get it into a formal channel.

D: Agreement on basis which you propose. [REDACTED] It was our thinking I gave you on discussion after an agreement except for freezing. Do you have my note to you?

K: The one you gave me this afternoon. Yes, I have it.

D: ... details that the summit (?) will discuss simultaneously with the conclusion of the agreement.

K: With the conclusion - no that is a little late for the discussion. With the beginning of the drafting of the agreement.

D: It is very difficult to put in drafting, from very beginning.

K: Will be discussed prior to ABM agreement?

D: Discussion of the details will be discussed simultaneously with the conclusion of the agreement.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: EOLASER
By: CNAR Date: 04/07/87

K: That would be fine. See how easy I am to get along with. The discussion of the details will be discussed simultaneously with the conclusion of an agreement on ABM systems. Yes. Something like that would go.

D: I will transmit this to Moscow.

K: We are prepared to listen to any reasonable proposition. We should make the proposal and that will make it easiest within our framework bureaucracy. The President could make the statement in a press conference - similar to the letter.

D: I understand. You could reply with what you just have given me.

K: ... notification. ... immediately instruct my delegation to -

D: I could not give you or no now on this. Just get it clearly to present your point of view to Moscow. The point of view of the President.

K: We will receive any counter proposals. That is no problem.

D: Major point is how to formulate this.

K: That formulation. The one you gave me.

D: You mean the one you gave me.

K: You are a good draftsman. You win everyone of our discussions.

D: Everyone called you doctor. I could not get a doctors degree in 10 years. I would have to write a book and -

K: The trouble you have is that if you write a book everyone will be able to understand it.

D: You must give me degree of doctor.

K: When I am back in academic life I will see what I can do for you.

D: I will tell my government but you must understand it might take time.

K: You know exactly we have that one problem in the 2nd half of April.

D: ... this place. no problem. Discuss with them, I will try to do my best and give you answer before I come back.

K: I have great confidence in your influence in Moscow. You remember I got you an answer within 24 hours on Berlin.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority E10255X
By CHNARA Date 5/2/58

*

4

D: But in this there are more countries involved in this Congress. It is difficult for me to go and say wait one week to the others and I will take up my business.

K: I understand. On Berlin. It is best thing we get Ambassadors started as soon as -

D: I think on 16th of April?

K: We proceed as we discussed yesterday.

D: They will begin and when they have difficulty then our channel will be again taken up. You will not forget to send instructions.

K: Yes I will. But you tell Abrasamov (B) to be somewhat cautious at first until we see how the communications work out.

D: As you proposed they will proceed.

K: I will be in touch with our Ambassador. If we have any questions on the technical things we can get in touch with Vorontsov. Is that the way you want it done?

D: Vorontsov. In some cases that is not good but in this case it is OK to go through him.

K: I have had no answer from Rush.

D: W.A.M.I.N.G.I.S.H.K.A.M.I.R.K.S.K. They will discuss and then they will talk - it is difficult for me to say for them. I think 2 grown up men can work out and agree on these administrative details don't you?

K: I think so. However, I have heard that Abrasamov is more difficult to discuss things with you than you.

D: He could not be worse than me. I am easiest fellow to discuss everything with.

K: I will K now see what influence you have in Moscow. Have a good trip.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority E01258
By CNARA Date 03/26/81

Ambassador Dobrynin/Mr. Kissinger

March 26, 1971, 8:20 p.m. - San Clemente

K: You and I are going steady. We should exchange telephone numbers.

D: That is right. I will give you my Moscow number, 290-2520.

K: I will not ask you what the area code is.

D: It is in Moscow.

K: I have talked to the President about it and do not completely understand it. Is this in response to our letter?

D: You do not? It is in connection with our last talk and your draft.

K: I will tell you how we are prepared to work it. We are prepared to agree in principle to separate ABM agreement. At that point they would begin discussing what sort of agreement. Simultaneously would discuss freeze.

D: I have to check but . . .

K: When they begin working on agreement they should talk about freeze.

D: They would discuss how many, etc. I don't know. It seems to be a little bit in the later stage. They will argue about [how many radars and all the little things.] What is your position?

K: They can start on ABM discussing the number of sites and so on but they must also discuss the freeze practically concurrently.

D: Simultaneously concluded on separate agreement and freezing at the same time.

K: Exactly.

By NARA, Dalo 5/26

March 26, 1971 8:20 p.m. - San Clemente

jlj

K: XX You and I are going steady. We should exchange telebone numbers.

D: That is right. I will give you my Moscow number. 290-2520.

D: It is in Moscow.

K: I will tell you how we are prepared to work it. We are prepared to agree in principle to separate ABM agreement. Then negotiators would begin discussion of what it would be like - moscow versus Washington, Washington versus -

D: Only involved in this place? How many ______ etc?

K: At that point they would begin discussing what sort of agreement. Then when they know what sort of agreement would discuss radars and so forth. Simultaneously would discuss freeze. If that is possible agreement would be immediate.

D: I have to check but -

K: When they begin drafting agreement, they should talk about freeze.

D: They would discuss how many, etc. I don't know. It seems to be a little bit on the later stage. They will argue about [how many radars and all the little things.]

K: Not crucial to us. After you say agreement on ABM - agreement has been reached.

D: What is your position?

K: Certain start on ABM but also discuss on freeze.

K: Exactly.

["DECLASSIFIED\nE.O. 12958, Sect. 3.6", "By. NARA, Dato. 5/26", "2", "D: I will pass this along to Moscow. I will be there myself on Monday. No, I cannot check it tomorrow because it is Saturday and no one will be there. You know it is the first week of the Congress to begin. For me it will be difficult to force members of the government to look at this. I will try to do my best and get an answer for you. I am meeting on Tuesday with Gromyko. Even he is involved with the Congress and lots of guests. You can understand the difficulty that this problem exists.", "K: Yes. We are prepared to give instructions to start discussions on ABM - the nature of agreement and how many radars, etc but we must simultaneously discuss the freeze issue.", "D: What to discuss. Yes. Freezing I am just putting some thoughts down. What kind of freezing. I will send a telegram to my government.", "KX", "K: Let me ask you as long as we have this conversation. Next part of it. Not many people know about this in our government and we must think of how to get them started. It can be done in two ways. By an exchange of letters. The other is that the President at a press conference could respond to a question along the lines of Do you still believe in the *link* between offensive and defensive weapons? Then he says something like I am willing to make an agreement as long as freezing is in it. You could say through TASS that is a good idea.", "D: I don't know. Yes I know you are giving an example.", "K: This way we could get it into a formal channel.", "D: Agreement on basis which you propose. THINKING...AGREE TO...X...X...X...X...X...X...X...X...X...

By NARA, Date 5/26

K: That would be fine. See how easy I am to get along with. The discussion of the details will be discussed simultaneously with the conclusion of an agreement on ABM systems. Yes. Somthing like that would go.

K: We are prepared to listen to any reasonable proposition. We should make the proposal and that will make it easiest within our power bureaucracy. The President could make the statement in a press conference - similar to the letter.

D: I could not give yes or no now on this. Just get it clearly to present your point of view to Moscow. The point of view of the President.

K: You know, we have that one problem in the 2nd half of April.

["DECLASSIFIED\nE.O. 12958, Sect. 3.6", "By. NARA, Date 5/26", "D: But in this there are more countries involved in this Congress. It is difficult for me to go and say wait one week to the others and I will take up my business.", "K: I understand. On Berlin. It is best thing we get Ambassadors started as soon as -", "D: I think on 16th of April?", "K: We proceed as we discussed yesterday.", "D: They will begin and when they have difficulty then our channel will be again taken up. You will not forget to send instructions.", "K: Yes I will. But you tell Abras'mov (R) to be somewhat cautious at first until we see how the communications work out.", "D: As you proposed they will proceed.", "K: I will be in touch with our Ambassador. If we have any questions on the technical things we can get in touch with Vorontsov. Is that the way you want it done?", "D: Vorontsov. In some cases that is not good but in this case it is OK to go through him.", "K: I have had no answer from Rush.", "D: WXXXXX 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x_x_x_x_x_x_x_x

By NARA, Date 5/26

TELCOM
Sen. Miller/Kissinger
10:30 a.m. 3/27/71

M: You indicated that you would --

K: I would call today. All I can say is we would really prefer no statement like that at all. You have to be your own judge. We think that what we should do at this stage is to use whatever possibility we have to try to get a settlement. Not to have too much pressure. We were asked by the House -- Ford -- along similiar lines and they decided not to put out any statement.

M: The same idea?

K: The same line.

M: With return first and then think --

K: If there has to be one, it's better than most but don't misunderstand me.

M: I was concerned about that this would take place on July 1 and query after. We could have it cleaned about over their ______. What it gets to is whether Vietnamization could be accomplished in the time frame.

K: Our concern is if other side interprets it as Iowan Republicans getting restive and bring pressure on the President.

M: Could read to bring pressure on them. If they want to get going on prisoners and not take other way around. They are saying pull them out and then we will discuss prisoners. This is saying it the other way.

K: I understand your proposal.

M: It would have much stronger ring of logic then what the Democratic cause is coming up with.

K: But if they turn around and say do it and then we will take care of prisoners
It's closer to the Democrats.

M: I would never do that. It would be put up or shut up and within a year we will take care of the other. It reverses the whole ______ and pulls the teeth of the Democratic proposal. I am thinking of the politics of the two. ______ are indicating they are making hay on this. I want to say here's a better approach rather than waiting.

K: Our judgement is that a lot of things might be broken loose in the next few months if we can keep cool which is not an outstanding attribute of this country.

By.

d

NARA, Dato

5/26

Sen. Miller/Kissinger

10:30 a.m. 3/27/71

M: This would quiet it right now.

K: You wouldn't say this was cleared by the WH, would you?

M: No. This is my own idea.

K: We would prefer nothing but this is better than many others. There won't be any feelings that you stabbed us in the back.

M: I don't want to do anything that will through a wrench in it.

K: We prefer nothing or a statement of support or along that line.

M: I don't know if that's the ball game with the way the Democratic Caucus is going.

K: We will sit tight and at the right moment we will crack them. We control a lot of things and so far we have kept our promises in this. People who have stuck with us won't look bad in '72.

M: If I do anything it will not be to ______ you.

K: I know you are a friend.

By

NARA, Date 5/26

TELCORN

Gen. Vogt/Kissinger

10:45 a.m.

3/27/71

K: The President wanted me to check about that operation. Is it going to happen?

V: They say strictly depending on weather at the moment.

K: If the weather is good they would do it?

V: That's what they said.

K: What's the weather forecast?

V: It's marginal in there because of the k usual fog and so forth but the <u>foggy</u> forecast is to improve.

K: We are talking about the same thing?

V: The continuation of the thing we just concluded? Beginning with an L?

K: With M, I thought.

V: That's the place but the operation began with an L. That's the understanding. We had some conversations out there and assured it's strictly weather. First opportunity they will do it. Where are you, in S. C.?

K: That's right.

V: How is it?

K: As soon as we arrive some place the weather is bad. But I think it's up to your bombing ceilings.

V: OK.

By. NARA, Dato 5/26

TELECON
The President

3/27/71 2:05 p.m.

P: What's new since this morning?

K: Not much. I checked in Washington about that raid with Vogt week; they're still planning it. Right now the weather's bad, but it's expected to go off in the next few days. I think it's a good move.

P: If they can do it.

K: Yes.

P: It's still up to the South Vietnamese.

K: Yes. We have been doing ________ on the bombing, but that is a less hairy operation than some others -- it's in <u>our</u> open country. Another thing, it looks at the moment as if Yahya has gotten control.

P: Really? How?

K: The Bengalie aren't very good fighters I guess.

P: How do the casualties look this week?

K: Can't tell yet -- it looks like it's around 50.

P: About the same as last week.

K: Yes. It might go higher with shelling in the last day or two.

P: I think in the next week it will start dropping.

K: It depends on Khesahn -- but certainly around Mid-April, after you make your speech, it will start dropping. I don't think they will do anything that runs the risk of a lot of casualties.

P: On their part.

K: Yes, on their part.

P: They're working on the psychology and they figure they have a psychological victory is all they need, and they may figure they have one in South Vietnam now. We'll keep on top of that.

By.

NARA, Dato

5/26

*

IXX TELECON

The President

3/27/71 2:05 p.m.

page 2

K: Actually the fact that they think they have a psychological victory may make them more ready to negotiate. If I am more optimistic than I have been on the negotiations because why should they wait two years for the Democrats to get what would then by only 50,000? The best the Democrats could offer in 1973 is what we are offering now. And if you come in in '72 then you can do anything you want.

P: If they bet wrong they are really going to get it.

K: And why should they bet on it? They risk your bombing them. The best thing we've got left is our troops and their fear of you.

P: They are afraid of our resuming the bombing of the north too.

K: So I think we have, maybe not a 50-50 chance, but a higher one than at any time to end it.

P: Another thing, I think some of the politicos, Muskie and Kennedy and of course Humphrey will jump on this. Indications of their desire to kill the idea, figuring it will hurt us. On the other hand, they are playing a very dangerous game and if they were following the press they shouldn't go this far. They seem to be pulling back a little. You ought to get across the idea that they are playing a dangerous game politically, for themselves and now they are waiting back for a time to pounce. That has never in history helped a politician. The country may turn on them. There's a curious reaction to something like this.

K: They don't like gloating over an American defeat, if they think this is a defeat.

P: It may take a little time, but we'll turn it around.

K: If only 50 percent of the things we've got planned work out we will be back in the position we were last October and we'll . . .

P: . . . . .

K: And if we settle the problem without them, we'll just let the record speak for itself.

P: Okay Henry. Have a good weekend.

By. NARA, Dalo 5/26

TELCON
Chuck Bailey/Kissinger
early afternoon 3/27/71

K: We are really having bad luck. This Pakistani blow up and I have to have
a special meeting on that. Are you going to be on the W. Coast?

B: The state of the newspaper industry is such that they are not interested
in having me out there. I hoped to chat on Indochina. The M. E. thing was
on my mind earlier in the week but now the Senators said they now understand
after Rogers talked with them. I never understood how it came out. I don't
think Rogers was unclear.

K: I don't either.

B: Looking at the people who spoke in the Senate Monday they knew the score and were building fires.

K: Rogers wasn't to begin with.

B: And not at the press conference which touched off the uproar in the Senate. Unless you think ______ and arguement is ______. I wanted to explore how you see the situation in VN and Laos operation. The public reporting our defeat has been fragmentary and rather heated.

K: Let me find out when we are leaving here. Maybe we can get together
before we leave.

B: I am worried about using the phone.

K: I want to find out if we are leaving at 5:00 from here or Andrews.

B: You are choppering at 5:00.

K: Come here at 4:15. I think the meeting I am attending will be longer than
15 minutes but perhaps not.

By. NARA, Date 5/26

TELECON
The President
3/27/71 a.m.

(on tape; brought in 3/29)

K: Mr. President.

P: No, Henry. I just meant that when you came I . . . no hurry.

K: I'll be in in about 10 minutes

P: No, hurry, no hurry. I'm just sitting in the office working on some other things but it's no hurry at all. I just meant when you're in the office. Okay.