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policy and in fact President Clinton has been more consistent in announcing a long-term policy for Latin America than in most other areas. What he has not been willing to do up to now is fight a bloody battle to get it implemented within our Congress. I think we should have pushed back track much earlier and it's very late to do it now and he won't get it through before he goes to Brazil and (2) so I am generally supportive of his policy. I'm somewhat critical of the lack of intensity with which he has pushed it, and that has created a certain vacuum within which opponents could organize.

Q. Um hum, are you confident in the approval of (2) since

A. I'm no expert on that, but all the people I talk to who claim to be experts in a subject are fairly confident. They're more so than in any other subject. They're perfectly confident in the Senate. They're uncertain in the House.

Q. I heard that they one of your associates here David Wofcoff (sp?) in Washington conference mentioning that the inpopularity of the idea of NAFTA expansion that is part of what this driving their position for fast track will make the Administration very not very much enthusiastic about pushing the FTA project even if it gets the fast track. What is your evaluation of that.

A. Certainly based on the past record of the Administration. It may be true but I hope that as a result of the visit our President will be made more enthusiastic about running for re-election on behalf of Latin America.

Q. But what do you think that this visit can do to the

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relationship, what it should do to the relationship.

A. First of all he's never been in Latin America, so it will already be literally important. <u>very</u> <u>well</u> <u>yet</u>

Q. In South America.

A. In South America. Secondly I think it's important to have a full exchange of views with the country. Third, it can bring home to him the urgency of what he has stated previously <u>albeit</u> <u>theory</u>, <u>theoretically</u>, <u>and</u> I think that's very important, and <u>maybe</u> something <u>that</u> <u>maybe</u> when he comes back to the next session of <u>Congress</u> he will recreate a urgency which (?) <u>will</u> <u>be</u> <u>in</u> the <u>short</u> term.

Q. But it's ironic that he does that in South America right now pushing for expansion, anything that sounds like like NAFTA expansion, could be counterproductive for the approval of (?) in the short term.

A. Yes.

Q. Is this

ere in the in the in still on the straight but to go highlight Brazil and Venezuela and Argentina what is the assessment, what is the expectation of the U.S. establishment, if we can use that expression, regarding Brazil right now, you have followed this for many years so.

A. Well, Brazil right now has a very high standing in the United States and among the people that I meet, after one of the big issues in the world right now is a shortage of <u>capital</u> and who gets the capital. And I have noticed that <u>therefore</u> <u>been</u> increasing interest in Brazil which means that <u>there's a trend of the</u> (?) <u>assessment of the</u> <u>Brasilian reformist</u> <u>view</u>.

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A. My view is it's a (3) It will change the distribution of real power and the distribution of seats in the Security Council. And in other countries like Brazil, India, Japan, Germany, that are major players on the economic front are not in the Security Council. On the other hand, if everybody gets in simultaneously under the old rules, then you have no Security Council left. So I think the American effort proposal is a serious effort to solve the problem. Would I die on the barricade for every last detail of it? No, but as an approach I think we deserve some credit for it.

Q. And you think that country.

A. And I think a Brazilian role in the Security Council would be a recognition of the reality that Brazil is becoming a major player.

Q. Some people in Brazil say well if they enlarge the Security Council it will very much, depending on the type of reform, this thing will not mean much anymore and then we will be in a body basically to help pay the bills and that's why we know more one.

A. But you can't do it in the Security Council without paying the bills.

Q. Ceremonial.

A. But you can't do it without wanting to become a great power and not pay your bills. I mean that and I think you want to be recognized as a great power. Whether you're in the Security Council or not it will not do indefinitely that the richer countries in the world don't pay.

Q. Two final things (1) could you give me a your

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difficult to formulate a foreign policy. And this is a
period for which I believe Brazil is using to organize South
America, but that's no reason to object to it.

Q. How do you rate Mrs. Albright as secretary of state?

A. On she's in for less than a year. She's a good friend of mine. She's a nice lady. She's energetic. She has good foreign policy on the map. And she has wide support and especially among women who have passionately supported her. And all of this is an asset in the conduct of foreign policy. I think she's doing (?).

Q. One final thing that I just forgot to mention here there is this decision of the United States to lift the prohibition on the sale of advanced weapons to Latin America but apparently is at the days of the subtle decision related to Argentina, and well created all sorts of speculations in Latin America, do you see any reas reasons for fear of that something that the new arms race could develop in the region.

A. No I think actually a military conflict in Latin America
today is almost out of the question.

Q. And you don't see anything happening here that could
completely doom destabilize. ?

A. I don't I don't think strategic weapons are the key (?)
in the Western Hemisphere.

Q. The problems are.

A. Economic, cooperation, structure of the Western
Hemisphere and internal and (?).

Q. Sir I thank you very much and when are you going to

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Brazil. When are you.

A. I'm leaving Saturday.

Q. Saturday. And you're staying, you're going to Sao Paulo are you not.

A. No. I'm going to Bella Horizondria (sp?) Brasilia.

Q. You'll probably see.

End of Henry Kissinger interview for Syndicate.

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PAGE 5

Q. In South America.

A. In South America. Secondly I think it's important to have a full exchange of views with the country. Third, it can bring home to him the urgency of what he has stated previously theoretically, and I think that's very important and maybe something that maybe when he comes back to the next session of Congress he will recreate a urgency which (?).

A. Yes.

Q. Is this

A. Well, Brazil right now has a very high standing in the United States and among the people that I meet, after one of the big issues in the world right now is a shortage of capital and who gets the capital. And I have noticed that there's been increasing interest in Brazil which means that there's a trend of the (?) assessment of the Brasilian reform.

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You can make I'm sure many criticisms of this and that, so
this is the first time that Brazil is emerging in the American
consciousness as something other than a South American country —
but as a potential worthwhile.

Q. Is there in this recently I mentioned to you that one of the things that created the suspicion regarding the United States and South American (?) was the decision by the United States to give to Argentina something called the major non-NATO allied sacks? while you have dealt with security issues, the real security issue all your life, what is that, what is the meaning of that.

A. I'll tell you the truth, I don't know. Some sort of
cooperation but I don't know in what. I don't think that is, I
think we wanted to give a number of countries some
relationship to NATO we do that we sprinkle that around the
world now. I'm not all that enthusiastic about the concept,
but I don't think it's of world-shaking importance.

Q. So it should not have created any of the bad reactions
it created in Chile, in Brazil and other places.

A. No.

Q. You know that they offered after they offered to Brazil
after saying that it didn't mean much. No but since it doesn't
mean much we prefer not to have it, now one one thing that I
also would like to ask you is could just going back a little
bit on the trade still, Brazil as you know had developed a
very cautious view regarding the FTA approach, because in part
because we are late in our reforms, we are not probably very

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self-assured of our own things, second, because we see this as
a because the United States wants to go too fast and that's
the one that has been the proposition that we want.

A. We could really (?) for going too fast and not
preferring and also not we're not going fast enough. We get
really we can't win.

Q. Uh huh uh huh. Now is there is there any idea here that
for instance movement that (?) Brazil are making in terms of
getting Girov (sp?) to deal with Narcosour (sp?) expand
Narcosour, does that and I'm going back a little bit to the
initiate the beginning of the interview that does that create any
real problem here, or this is more I don't know trade
negotiators or.

A. In my day you had to worry about excessive feel
political contact because that's the way I think. With the
present Administration they don't have to worry about (?)
design in undermining Brazil. They deal with immediate
problems more and I the question is does free trade area
pushed in order to undermine Narcosour, it's really what you're
asking.

Q. Yeah. Yes.

A. I don't think so. First of all you're gonna have trouble
getting past (?) then we're gonna have trouble developing it
more thoroughly to me I mean then we have the authority but
then we need a negotiating position. Then we need a
negotiation. It will take time and I think if America is very
able ably defending Brasilian interests so.

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PAGE 9

A. My view is it's a (?) it will change the distribution of real power and the distribution of seats in the Security Council. And countries like Brazil, India, Japan, Germany, that are major players on the economic front are not in the Security Council. On the other hand, if everybody gets in simultaneously under the old rules, then you have no Security Council left. So I think the American effort proposal is a serious effort to solve the problem. Would I die on the barricade for every last detail of it? No, but as an approach I think we deserve some credit for it.

A. And I think a Brasilian role in the Security Council would be a recognition of the reality that Brazil is becoming a major player.

Q. Some people in Brazil say well if they enlarge the Security Council it will very much, depending on the type of reform, this thing will not mean much anymore and then we will be in a body basically to help pay the bills and that's you know more one.

A. But you can't.

Q. Ceremonial.

A. But you can't you can't want to become a great power and not pay your bills. I mean that and I think you want to be recognized as a great power. Whether you're in the Security Council or not it will not do indefinitely that the richer countries in the world don't pay.

Q. Two final things could you give me a your

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PAGE 10

appreciation now of U.S. foreign policy right now. There is
this you touched on that subject that there is a transition
period, people don't know how to figure the U.S. foreign
policy now. Is there such thing right now? Is there a foreign
policy?

A. Well it's an advantage. It has to be an advantage
because the Cold War ended the new world has been (?). The new
world is different. You have global economics. You have
instantaneous communication. You have the capacity to mobilize
resources on specifically weak targets of the economic system.
These are all huge new problems. And they're to shift from the
strategic issues to the economic issues. All of this is new.
On top of it in the United States there is a change in the
distribution of power, from the East to the West. And the West
is more isolationist. There's a change in the distribution of
our population with the Hispanic element becoming more
significant. So all of this requires significant adjustments.
On top of it our politics have changed. Our politicians are
now so consumed with getting elected that they have almost no
time to think about the sort of questions you're asking me.
Now of all (?) then our political parties have broken up in
this sense, even when I was in government and the terribly
difficult period still there was a government party and an
opposition party and people from the opposition often
supported the government on foreign policy. Right now, each
party is totally split. Clinton is attacked by Gephard, and
the Republicans are all over the place. So it becomes more

3

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A. On she's in for less than a year. She's a good friend of mine, she's a nice lady. She's energetic. She has good foreign policy on the map, and she has wide support and especially among women who have passionately supported her. And all of this is an asset in the conduct of foreign policy. I think she's doing (?).

Q. One final thing that I just forgot to mention here there is this decision of the United States to lift the prohibition on the sale of advanced weapons to Latin America but apparently is at the days of the subtle decision related to Argentina, and well created all sorts of speculations in Latin America, do you see any reasons for fear of that something that the new arms race could develop in the region.

A. I don't think I don't think strategic weapons are the key (?)
in the Western Hemisphere.

Q. The problems are.

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Brazil. When are you.

A. I'm leaving Saturday.

Q. You'll probably see.

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