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Air Date: September 22, 1992
Transcript #657

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# Larry King Live

## Vietnam MIA's: The War That Will Not End

LARRY KING ........................................................................ Host

Guests:

HENRY KISSINGER, Former Secretary of State

VERNON WALTERS, Former Deputy Director, CIA

WINSTON LORD, Former National Security Council Member

Senior Executive Producer .................................... TAMARA HADDAD

Copyright © 1992 Cable News Network, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. This transcript may not be produced in whole or in part without permission. Condition of use: credit CNN's Larry King Live for the use of excerpts.

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Transcribed by Lois Washington for Journal Graphics, Inc.

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This transcript has not yet been checked against videotape
and cannot, for that reason, be guaranteed as to accuracy of
speakers and spelling of names. (LW)

LARRY KING LIVE Transcript #657

Air Date: September 22, 1992

Vietnam MIAs: The War That Will Not End

Former Pres. RICHARD NIXON: We today have concluded an agreement to end the war and bring peace with honor in Vietnam.

ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Larry King Live. Tonight: Did the United States knowingly leave American soldiers behind at the end of the Vietnam War? New evidence suggests that President Nixon may have known that POWs were stranded, but did nothing about it. Former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger responds to the charges. Now, here's Larry King.

LARRY KING: Good evening. Welcome to another edition of Larry King Live. One quick note: This Friday night, Governor Mario Cuomo is the special guest.

Did the United States government knowingly abandon American POWs when the United States withdrew from the Vietnam War? In testimony today before the Senate select committee on POW/MIA affairs, our former Secretary of State angrily denied allegations that he and other Nixon officials had evidence that Americans were still being held when the pullout began. But yesterday, two former Nixon defense secretaries testified they believe President Nixon had strong evidence that American prisoners were being held when the withdrawal began. And committee chairman John Kerry read from recently released secret documents that suggest the Nixon administration lost interest in the fate of the POWs once the peace accords were signed.

Strong charges. Here to respond: the man of the hour — he testified almost all day today — former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger. Always great to welcome him to Larry King Live.

Was that grueling for you today? Was it tough?

HENRY KISSINGER, Former Secretary of State: It was a long day.

KING: Anything surprise you today?

Dr. KISSINGER: No, I think it was a friendly hearing by responsible people.

KING: Were you hurt by what you heard?

Dr. KISSINGER: Well, I am hurt by the charge because when you're in politics or in high office there are many policy disagreements, but leaving American servicemen behind at the end of a long and bitter war—that's not a policy disagreement. That's an attack on the honor and decency of the people involved. That cannot happen. That could not have happened, and it did not happen.

KING: You were not Secretary of State then, right?

Dr. KISSINGER: I was security adviser.

KING: Were they mentioned when you sat down with the President, Secretary of State, and others? Did someone

say, "What about the POWs?"

Dr. KISSINGER: Now, wait a minute. As part of the agreement which I negotiated, 595 prisoners of war returned, many of whom had been prisoners for eight years. And what they think of this is shown by the fact that on many occasions they have invited me as guest of honor to their annual dining at Randolph Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas.

So, the issue is not at all "Did we get the prisoners back?" We got the known prisoners back. The issue is whether there were prisoners that were illegally kept behind by Hanoi that, for some reason, we didn't properly account for. That is the charge that is being made.

KING: All right, now, was that discussed?

Dr. KISSINGER: Certainly, it was discussed. First of all, one has to say this about what Secretary Schlesinger and Secretary Laird said yesterday. Secretary Laird has already denied that he said what he's alleged to have said. Secretary—

KING: It's this year — people are denying what they've said they've said.

Dr. KISSINGER: Secretary Laird's position is the same as mine, which is that it's possible that the Vietnamese, in violation of all agreements, in violation of all human rights, illegally kept people back — that it's possible. We're not saying it happened.

Secretary Schlesinger said what he said, which is that he now believes some were held back. Secretary Schlesinger was my colleague for many years. I have high regard for him. The fact remains he was CIA director at the time, Secretary of Defense shortly afterwards. I am convinced one will not be able to find one document, one conversation, one telephone call, one meeting when he expressed the opinion then that he's alleged to have expressed yesterday.

So, what he thinks now after 20 years, it's possible, but that isn't the point. The point is, we who were responsible for extricating ourselves from Vietnam and who did bring the prisoners back—Did we leave anyone behind? And the answer to that is: We left nobody behind.

KING: Did Henry Kissinger think — think — "Maybe they're holding some people"?

Dr. KISSINGER: No, I tell you, the following things happened: They never gave us a list of prisoners while the war was going on, playing on the heartstrings of the American families. So, we didn't even have a list, except for bits and pieces that they gave out to peace activists that came to Hanoi. So, we had some fragments of people that we knew were on lists, but we did not have a complete list.

As part of the peace agreement that I negotiated, they were obliged to turn over lists of prisoners on the day the agreement was signed. That is the first time that we could check what they gave us against what we knew. We found about 80 names where we had believed to have some evidence that they were prisoners. And the peace agreement was signed on January 27th. I went to Hanoi on February 11th to bring them that list of prisoners and to discuss it with them. We insistently demanded an accounting, 30 times, in the year 1973, altogether.

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**KING:** And what did they say?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** The problem we had in 1973 was that, due to our domestic division, the Congress prohibited military action and cut off economic aid. So, all we had— We were in the appalling position that all we had to back up our tough words were more tough words.

**KING:** You had no clout behind.

**Dr. KISSINGER:** We had no bargaining position left. That was our problem.

**KING:** All right, did you go back and say this to Congress?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Absolutely.

**KING:** And Congress said?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Well—

**KING:** Or the leadership?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Of course, it was a different Congress.

**KING:** Naturally, or the leadership of Congress. Did you go back and say, "Listen—"

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Although during— In '73?

**KING:** Yes.

**Dr. KISSINGER:** First of all, when we said that we had an inadequate accounting for missing in action, I could find quickly only about 30 public statements we had made to that effect in a nine-month period, altogether. We told the Congress that if they cut off our capacity to use military force, that we would lose the ability to enforce the agreement, and they did it anyway.

On May 31st, 1973 — I have these dates in mind not because I remember them, but because I had to testify today — Senator Dole put before the Congress an amendment to their cutting off of military action, to the effect that if— that this amendment would go only into effect if the Vietnamese gave us an honest account of the missing in action.

**KING:** And that was?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** And that was defeated by a vote of 55- to-25, including 12 current members of the U.S. Senate.

**KING:** Now, did the other side think, or did you say to yourself, "Why are they holding these people? If they're going to hold them—"

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I'm not sure— No, I have to tell you, the difference between me and some of these people is I'm not sure they are holding people. I think it is quite possible— First of all, I don't know why they would be holding people—

**KING:** That's the question.

**Dr. KISSINGER:** —that they don't acknowledge.

**KING:** Going to ask for ransom or something, right?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Well, if they had come a year after the peace agreement and said, "By chance, we just found 50 more. It will cost you $2 billion to get them back," I would have been outraged, but that I could have understood. But here they have been— Here it is 20 years after the war. They have never acknowledged that they had any prisoners. And I have difficulty understanding why they would do it. Now, on some of these discrepancies that I mentioned to you before, it is possible that they were killed under circumstances that they did not want to admit and did not want to have any questions asked and—

**KING:** You mean like brutally killed?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Brutally killed, yes.

**KING:** In violation of—

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I mean, being in a Vietnamese prison was no joke. I mean, people were tortured, they were in solitary confinement for long stretches.

**KING:** A lady today on CNN said that, of all the people in the administration, you were the most honest with her. You didn't raise their hopes dealing with these families—

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Oh, I'm glad—

**KING:** In fact, she was asked on, I think— You were always honest— Mrs. Stockdale is her name.

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Oh, Sybil Stockdale [sp?].

**KING:** Yes.

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Oh, yes.

**KING:** She said that you were direct. You told them the odds were one in 10 that they would come back. Was that hard to do?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Look. I met with these families. I met with them regularly. And it was heartbreaking, because they didn't know even whether their husbands were prisoners. All they knew, they were missing, because there were no lists being given. I could not even tell them that I was negotiating because, until January 1972, for three years, my negotiations were secret. And I had to meet with them.

And I take my hat off to these ladies because many of the peace activists were trying to get them to attack the administration and to say that it was a senseless war and their husbands were suffering in vain, or their sons. Never did they do it. And I had to meet with them and say, "We're doing the best we can. I can't tell you what it is. When I can tell you something— But I will not—"

I'm really pleased that Sybil Stockdale did this.

**KING:** More to come with Dr. Henry Kissinger. Then, later, we'll meet Winston Lord and Vernon Walters. They were both involved in the administration, both former ambassadors— discuss this same topic, take your calls later. Don't go away.

### [Commercial break]

**KING:** Our guest is Dr. Henry Kissinger. He testified all day today before that select committee — POWs/MIAs. We asked earlier if it were grueling.

Did they treat you well?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** They treated me fine.

**KING:** No complaints about any of the senators?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** No.

**KING:** You had a little exchange with Senator Bob Kerrey, didn't you? Or John Kerry?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** No, John Kerry. I had a good exchange with Bob Kerrey, a philosophical exchange of where America was going. Well, yes, but you know, John Kerry and I come from opposite poles. He was a leader of the peace protest movement. And I, frankly, feel that the people who were opposed to what we were doing and the people who took away our leverage should not now criticize us for not having enough leverage.

**KING:** How do you react to, in all these years now— It's almost 20. These things keep coming up. Charges, countercharges: "They're there, I spotted them, here are pictures"; hopes get up, hopes go down; "This one's alive.

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This one never reported. The North Vietnamese were
cheats." Ross Perot, in stirring testimony, I thought, a
couple of weeks ago told about being called in by the ad-
ministration; told to do this; he flew there; they weren't
there: they were there. What do you make of all this?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Well, I have never seen a confirmed sport of a live prisoner in all those 20 years. The pictures that were in the newspapers have been demonstrated to be fakes. And my difficulty has been all along that I could not visualize why the Vietnamese would hold prisoners that they don't acknowledge. What would they get out of it? A few in order to punish them for something? Conceivable. So, that's my intellectual difficulty.

Now, in Laos, which is a more difficult territory, less
well organized, was it possible that some local chieftains
kept some people that dropped from the sky? Conceivable.
I have never seen any evidence of it. And when I say,
"conceivable," I don't want families to think that it's true.
I'm just trying to be fair.

**KING:** In your gut, you think there are none there, right?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Now, certainly not.

**KING:** And if they were, they're probably gone now?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** And I don't know that there were any
there.

**KING:** Now, all wars have this, don't they? The Second World War still has people who never came back.

**Dr. KISSINGER:** All wars have it, but this, of course, is especially painful because they were supposed to give us an account of the missing. And they have played with us. And it is offensive that every few years they send over a few bones of deceased. They must have a mortuary somewhere where they pull them out every once in a while. And that I find offensive.

**KING:** How sincere about them was Richard Nixon?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** About whom?

**KING:** These people— and Gerald Ford and the rest?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Look— Look, I worked—

**KING:** Because a lot of people question that, and you were right there every day.

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I worked for over four years with Richard Nixon. I had been a political opponent of his within the Republican Party.

**KING:** You were a Rockefeller man.

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I was a close friend of Nelson Rockefeller, and in three election campaigns I fought against Richard Nixon.

In matters of foreign policy, he did not play domestic politics. He was concerned with the national interest. He did not always have the grace of how to reach out, but he was sincere in what he was doing. And you have to give him enormous credit: In 1972, six months before an election, two weeks before a summit, he mined the harbors of Vietnam and expanded military operations when the North Vietnamese launched a surprise offensive against us. It could have lost him the election, and he didn't ask any questions about it.

**KING:** What do you make of this draft situation — Viet-
nam will never go away from us, I guess — now being a
campaign issue?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Well, first of all, I think one reason Vietnam won't go away from us is because, funnily enough, the opponents— First of all, I don't know what it means to be an opponent of the war. I say this is relevant, also, to Mr. Clinton. What does it mean: you're an opponent of the war? Nobody wanted—

**KING:** You disagree with the—

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Nobody wants the war.

**KING:** Right— You think the war shouldn't be fought, that we shouldn't be there.

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Sure, but once you are there, what is your obligation? The problem that the Nixon administration had was we inherited a war from a previous administration. Do you turn it off like a television channel, or do you try to get out honorably? Now, if people disagree with the terms we had, then they should argue; but just to say you were against the war—

**KING:** But if it's wrong— Didn't DeGaulle pull out of Algiers after they'd been there a while? Didn't he just say it was wrong?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** And do you know how long it took DeGaulle to pull out of Algiers? Five years. It took us four years to get out of Vietnam, and we reduced our troops unilaterally.

**KING:** Do you think it should be an issue in this campaign now?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** There are two issues, it seems to me, with Mr. Clinton: One, what did or did not happen on the draft issue? I have no opinion on this. Secondly, I am somewhat bothered by this proposition that a potential President of the United States says he can determine whether he wants to go to war or not for his country. That is not a good precedent to set. But I also would say that he can set this straight by explaining what his current position on the issue is.

**KING:** Are you bothered if Dan Quayle joined the National Guard in order to have less of a chance of going?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Well, but this is the same— I don't really want to get into this debate, because that's part of the political campaign. I support President Bush strongly, but I don't want to support him on this issue— I don't want to get into this particular issue.

**KING:** Fair enough.

We'll be back with some more moments with Dr. Henry Kissinger and the POW-MIA situation. And then, we'll meet Winston Lord and Vernon Walters. Don't go away.

(Commercial break)

**KING:** We're back. We have a couple of minutes left with Dr. Henry Kissinger. We'll touch some bases on this issue which won't go away.

Will it ever go away? Are we ever going to resolve this?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** We really should— We should end the debate.

**KING:** End it?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Well, I think that the critics of the war ought finally to accept that there were honorable people on all sides of this debate, and not keep conducting their vendetta forever, which is what they're doing— I mean, endless attacks on the motives of the people who, after all,

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felt that you could not— that four American Presidents had said — of both parties — that the freedom of Vietnam was essential for the security of the United States. And President Nixon liquidated the war under honorable conditions.

**KING:** Now, we know that some in government— McNamara, for one, drove home one night and thought he was wrong. Did it ever happen to you? Did you ever on a drive home one night in Washington from a meeting or from a negotiation, say—

**Dr. KISSINGER:** McNamara is a fine human being.

We achieved what we set out to do, which was to end the war and to bring the prisoners home.

**KING:** So, you never during that period of time questioned our morality?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** If you look at the suffering that happened in Vietnam, at the millions that were killed in Cambodia, at the boat people, at the government that was established there — I believe we were on the moral side.

**KING:** Any comment on this new book about you?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** No.

**KING:** You're writing your own, though, I am told?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Yes, but I write— My book is about how various nations, including the United States, have approached foreign policy. It's not a personal memoir.

**KING:** It's about negotiations?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** It's about negotiations. It's about how, in this new situation, America should look at foreign policy. in the view of its history and in the view of how other nations look at foreign policy.

**KING:** How tough, from a negotiation standpoint, were the North Vietnamese?

**Jr. KISSINGER:** They were the toughest negotiators I ever dealt with. They're monomaniacs.

**KING:** Monomaniacs?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Monomaniacs. They are heroic people, but heroes are pains in the neck to live with. And they survived for 2,000 years. They were the only country under Chinese tutelage that never accepted the Chinese language, the Chinese writing; but the price that they paid for it is to think that the whole world revolves around Vietnam. And if we had to tackle the most difficult people in the world, we'd tackle them.

They were tough, treacherous, deceitful; but you had to respect them.

**KING:** How far are we away from openly back with them— from exchanging ambassadors?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Well, I'll tell you, I, personally, stay out of that debate. They bruised me too deeply and they bruised my country too deeply, in my observation.

**KING:** In other words, it should be some new people making the—

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I think that decision ought to be made by somebody else, but I still think they owe us an accounting for the missing in action. And all they have to do is let American teams travel around their country and let them see where we think airplanes crashed and give it—

**KING:** That's so logical.

**Dr. KISSINGER:** And that's not asking for much.

**KING:** What do they say to that?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Well, they don't feel they need to be logical in order to turn you down on something. They just say "No."

**KING:** And you have no appeal to logic? I'm not a negotiator so—

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Well, you have— The appeal to logic you have with them is to balance the penalties and rewards. And if you can make a case for that, then they'll do it. But if you say, "Abstract morality requires that you do this — fairness, decency—" I used to give them lectures on the desirability of a ceasefire, and they'd say to me, "Listen, we don't fight to have a ceasefire. We fight to have victory."

**KING:** So, you've got to have something to deal with them back.

**Dr. KISSINGER:** You have to prove to them that they can't have victory— I mean, in that situation. And in the present situation, if they want relations with the United States badly enough, they'll let us look for the missing in action. It's not a cold war any more. We're not looking for military secrets.

**KING:** Is your testimony done?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Yes.

**KING:** Did they say anything about bringing you back?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** No, I'm finished.

**KING:** Will President Nixon testify?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I would be surprised. I really don't think it's a good idea for Presidents to testify before congressional committees years after they've been in office. I think it breaks down the separation of powers.

**KING:** How about in private?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I think if they wanted to have a private discussion of his recollection, that might be appropriate.

**KING:** Thanks, Dr. Kissinger. Always great seeing you.

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Larry, always good to see you.

**KING:** Dr. Henry Kissinger.

We'll be back with Winston Lord and Vernon Walters, more on this topic, and your phone calls. Don't go away.

**ANNOUNCER:** Coming up: Two more Nixon insiders share their views.

*(Commercial break)*

**KING:** Welcome back to Larry King Live. Don't forget: Friday night, a full hour with Governor Mario Cuomo of New York. And next week, General Norman Schwarzkopf will be here — that's next Wednesday night.

Washington is buzzing, of course, about angry testimony given today by our first guest, Henry Kissinger, on the fate of POWs left in Vietnam, but his isn't the only opinion on what happened. The possibility seems to exist that American POWs were officially written off by some Nixon officials. It's a question that serves as a source of great anguish for a nation still healing from the wounds of that war.

Here to help us with these questions are two former high-level Nixon officials who also testified before that Senate select committee: Ambassador Vernon Walters, former deputy director of the CIA under Richard Nixon; and Ambassador Winston Lord, who was special assistant

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to national security adviser Henry Kissinger.

Vernon, we'll start with you. Good seeing you. Thank you both for coming. Mr. Ambassador, what's your overall assessment of these hearings?

**VERNON WALTERS, Former Deputy Director, CIA:**
Well, I don't know, you know, what good they'll really do. They may give some of the families the sensation that, you know, every effort is being made to uncover traces, but I do not believe that we ever left anybody behind knowingly.

**KING:** You say, "give the families the sensation," meaning that it would be a false sensation?

**Mr. WALTERS:** It would be a false sensation that there may be some hope. The kind of people these are— How could they explain prisoners today, 15 to 17 years after the end of the war? How could they justify having kept them this long after signing the treaties, signing the agreements, and long years of peace? They've still been holding these people? There'd be no explanation.

**KING:** Also, if they would have kept them, Winston, as Secretary Kissinger pointed out, why not ask for something?

**WINSTON LORD, Former National Security Council Member:** Exactly.

**KING:** What's the point of holding hostages?

**Mr. LORD:** If I could step back just for a moment, to get to your original question, first, my heart goes out to the families of the MLAs. They've suffered for 20 years. I hope these hearings will heal some of the wounds and bring some peace to them.

Secondly, let's all keep our eye on who the villains are. They're the North Vietnamese.

Thirdly, we will not heal the wounds if we entertain nonstrategic charges that we knowingly left prisoners behind, or that five successful [sic] administrations, Democratic and Republican, have participated in a conspiracy. So, I'd like to get that out there in front.

**KING:** In other words, that would be a tragedy, to do that?

**Mr. LORD:** Right.

**KING:** Unless it did happen.

**Mr. LORD:** The families have suffered enough, without having that anguish, as well.

**KING:** But what if it did happen? The truth is paramount, isn't it?

**Mr. LORD:** The truth is clear on one point: that five administrations did not participate in a conspiracy. So, let's get that clear. There are several issues here. Was it a good agreement? I think it was the best possible one, given the time and the pressures everyone was under. Should we have gone ahead with it despite these discrepancies? We can discuss that. I believe Nixon had a tough choice; he made the correct choice.

And then, thirdly, have we followed up? Reasonable people disagree whether it's been vigorous enough, but I feel that a major effort has been made. And, in any event, if there's been mistakes with particular statements out of context, it has not been a conspiracy to deceive the families.

**KING:** Mr. Kissinger said that he had no bargaining

power when he had that list of 80 or so; he had nothing to say to them because the Congress had taken all that away. Do you agree?

**Mr. LORD:** I agree. And one day, Le Due Tho said to him in my presence, and I translated it— He said, "I don't know why I should negotiate anything with you. I spent six hours with Senator McGovern yesterday, and your opposition is going to force you to give me what I want." And that was one of Dr. Kissinger's great days. He looked at him and he said, "Mr. Le Due Tho, you know nothing about an opposition. You have always brutally destroyed any opposition which raised its head in your own country. Do not talk about opposition. Leave that to those who tolerate one."

**KING:** What happened, Vernon, do you think, to those who didn't come back?

**Mr. WALTERS:** They killed them. They either killed them at the time — angry peasants or people in towns who'd been bombarded — or at some point these people did something that displeased them and, I think, they killed them.

Let me just give you one fact. When I served in Vietnam, I went straight to France. The French had lost something like 23,000 prisoners at Dien Bien Phu who were identified and known to be alive at the time of the surrender. The French got back about 10,000 — less than half. These were people lost in the jungle or parachuted out of airplanes. These were people in organized military units which surrendered officially on the battlefield.

**KING:** That's tough to hear, though, isn't it, Winston? We don't want to hear that.

**Mr. LORD:** We don't want to hear it. We may never know exactly what happened. I hope these hearings help shed light on it. I suspect that there aren't any alive today. I agree with your original point. How could you explain holding people and not telling anybody about it? The world would be outraged if they revealed it. If they don't reveal it, what kind of leverage do they get out of it? So, we've never had one confirmed absolute fix on a live POW being held in 20 years.

We've got to keep pursuing this. I recognize the anguish. The lists were inadequate at the time of the agreement. They should have been pursued. They were pursued. The story still has to be told. But we also don't want to get undue hopes up for these poor families.

**KING:** Vernon, if we knew the list was inadequate, why did we go ahead?

**Mr. WALTERS:** Well, I think Win explained that very well the other day. He said if the agreement is imperfect, what do we do? Go back to military action — which the Congress would probably have stopped? We couldn't. We had no leverage.

**Mr. LORD:** Here's the choice the President—

**KING:** The President's between a rock and a hard place.

**Mr. WALTERS:** That's right.

**Mr. LORD:** Well, here's the choice the President had. First of all, we were disappointed in the lists, particularly with respect to Laos. They were much shorter than suggestive intelligence said they ought to be turning over to

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us. We, however, did not have iron-clad proof of any one person — let alone, several — that we absolutely knew for sure— And Senator Kerry, the chairman of the committee, agreed with that; in fact, volunteered that day before yesterday. So, the President and all of us, suspecting that the North Vietnamese were very treacherous anyway, being disappointed in the lists, had considerable anguish about the discrepancies.

On the other hand, we had 591 prisoners we were certainly going to get back, and if we tore up the agreement we would not get them back. More prisoners would be taken, more Americans and Vietnamese and others would be killed, the Congress would probably not support doing it in any event, and the American society would have been blown apart. So, I don't think Nixon had a better choice.

**KING:** Do you agree with Secretary Kissinger that Nixon should not be called?

**Mr. WALTERS:** I think calling the President of the United States — whoever he is, whether it's Nixon or any other of the living Presidents of the United States — I think, to my mind, trespasses on the separation of powers in our society. If they want to talk to them privately or something, yes, but to call the President— former President of the United States, or the current President of the United States, before the bar of a Senate committee, sitting down there with them sitting on top of him, I think would be bad precedent.

**Mr. LORD:** I agree, but I would not only tolerate, I would encourage the President to sit down with the committee—
**KING:** In private.

**Mr. LORD:** —in private, and try to shed more light on this, to explain his passion on this issue and to try to reach some reconciliation.

**KING:** So, you think President Nixon ought to make that—

**Mr. LORD:** In his own self-interest and for the interests of the families and for the nation, yes.

**Mr. WALTERS:** Well, I'm afraid I'm not going to quite go along with that. It would leak within a matter of hours, and you would have had the result of the President being interrogated by the committee.

As for the families, I share that agony. When I was testifying in 1976 before Congressman Montgomery he said— I was deputy director of the CIA. He said, "Are you holding this out to protect some secrecy of sources and methods?" And I said, under oath, "If I could, by raising the veil of secrecy, assuage or lessen the agony and uncertainty of these families, I would do it." I can't, because, as Win said, I never in my time as deputy director of the CIA, ever saw a piece of intelligence confirmed that indicated that an American prisoner was somewhere in North Vietnam.

**KING:** Our guests are Ambassador Vernon Walters, the former ambassador to the U.N. and Germany; Ambassador Winston Lord, the former ambassador to China. Your phone calls will be included, right after this. Don't go away.

JAMES SCHLESINGER, Former Secretary of

**Defense:** [testifying before Congress; September 21, 1992] I have a high-probability assessment that people were left behind in Laos, and a medium-probability assessment with regard to Vietnam.

*(Commercial break)*

**KING:** We're going to go to your calls for Ambassadors Vernon Walters and Winston Lord.

But first, we just saw the clip of former Secretary of Defense Schlesinger saying that he believes there were people there. Are you saying this is a current belief and not a then belief? Is he misinterpreting this?

**Mr. WALTERS:** My guess is he's misinterpreted, that it's a current belief.

**KING:** In other words, he believes it now, but didn't then?

**Mr. WALTERS:** I was his deputy at that time, and he may have seen some things that I didn't, but I don't think there were many. And I do not ever recall seeing any kind of confirmed evidence that someone had seen a live American prisoner.

**Mr. LORD:** Yes, I was very disturbed by the headlines this morning in many papers which suggested that he and Laird said we'd knowingly left people behind. I heard their testimony. I would not have written a headline that way, and I think it has distorted the debate and heated it up.

**KING:** And Mr. Kissinger said Laird told him that that's not what he meant.

**Mr. LORD:** Fair enough.

**KING:** Let's go to your calls for Winston Lord and Vernon Walters.

Bradenton, Florida, hello.

1st CALER: [Bradenton, Florida] Yes, my name is Patricia O'Grady (?). I'm the daughter of a known prisoner of war who was captured in Laos. I know exactly who captured my father. I know the exact location where he was held and detained in Laos by a primitive tribal grouping. My question is, when the Laotian people at the close of the war in 1973— When the Laotian officials specifically claimed to have American prisoners of war and asked the Nixon administration publicly to negotiate directly with them, why, instead of negotiating with the Laotian government and representatives, did the Nixon administration claim that all POWs had been returned and that there were none still alive?

**KING:** Who wants to take it?

**Mr. WALTERS:** Well, I think the particular Pathet Lao who claimed that they had something like 150 prisoners three days later retracted that statement, which I think is very significant. The Vietnamese— The North Vietnamese had told us that they would take care of the prisoners in Laos, and they were much more organized than the Laotians. The Laotians had a very primitive countryside. The Vietnamese, I am sure, made the Lao — my belief is, when it was militarily possible — turn over the prisoners to them.

**KING:** So, her father staying with that primitive family—

**Mr. WALTERS:** I have no way of knowing.

**KING:** Anything you'd add?

**Mr. LORD:** Except to underline my sympathy for the caller and what she has been through—

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Mr. WALTERS: That's right.

Mr. LORD: —and continues to go through. I was not in the negotiations after February 1973, but my understanding is we did talk to the Pathet Lao as well as the North Vietnamese and kept after this question.

KING: Caller, are you there?

1st CALLER: Yes.

KING: Do you remain angry at this government?

1st CALLER: I'm angry at the lies that I have been told. I would tell you that all of the POWs in Laos were not turned over. I have U.S. government documents from the Department of Defense that clearly state that the militia—the tribal group that captured my father refused to turn him over to the 280th Air Regiment, Vietnamese.

Mr. LORD: Well, I can just reiterate my sympathy. I don't know this particular case, and I hope to God that she's getting the right answers.

KING: But she certainly expresses, does she not, Vernon, immense grief?

Mr. WALTERS: She certainly expresses this, and I understand—

KING: Of not knowing.

Mr. WALTERS: There's nothing worse than uncertainty. It would be almost better to know that they were dead. It's a dreadful, dreadful situation. There is nothing worse than uncertainty. And I can hardly believe that anybody in the United States government would willingly prolong or continue that agony.

KING: So, you're saying — both of you are saying — the blame belongs there, and not here?

Mr. LORD: Absolutely.

KING: Powell, Ohio, hello.

2nd CALLER: [Powell, Ohio] Yes, this is— My name is Midge Gass (?], and my father's been missing since 1968 in Laos. And they don't understand the anguish that the family members do go through. We are on a constant roller coaster every single day with the information that's been in the papers and everything lately.

The biggest problem, I feel, is that there isn't a single person that's in politics that has a family member missing. And we feel that, if they did have somebody missing in their family, maybe this wouldn't be such a big issue.

KING: All right, ma'am, the roller coaster means there's an up. What's an up? For example, what occurs that

KING: What occurs that makes you boost your feelings?

2nd CALLER: What occurs? The different pictures and the photos that you were talking about.

KING: Yes, but, as Secretary Kissinger pointed out, they were all proved to be frauds.

2nd CALLER: Well, they're proven to be frauds, but there are still over 1,000 live sightings that — they have been, you know, in the past year — that they're still checking into, that are going on in Vietnam and in Laos.

KING: Well, do you believe your government wouldn't want to get your father back?

2nd CALLER: I'm not saying they wouldn't want to get him back, but I have a feeling that there is an issue there

that nobody wants to surface, for some reason. And if they would just not sweep it under the rug, if they would surface this issue, get out whatever the truth may be, then I think that the issue could be solved.

Mr. LORD: Believe me, I can't pretend to understand your anguish. I try to. I hope it can be eased somewhat by distinguishing between being critical of whether public statements or information has been imperfect — and it may well have been, in your case and in other cases — and distinguishing that from whether American officials genuinely want to try to resolve this issue or whether they're covering something up. And I hope your pain is not doubled by thinking the latter — a conspiracy theory — because it just makes it worse.

KING: Wilkes Barre, Pennsylvania, hello.

3rd CALLER: [Wilkes Barre, Pennsylvania] To Mr. Walters, with regard to what he said with the history of the North Vietnamese not holding prisoners, I believe, if I read history right, the French had kept prisoners of war for over 20 years. In '74 they had released them, if I'm correct, if Mr. Walters is aware of that. And why are they acting like they didn't know?

KING: You mean they released French prisoners?

3rd CALLER: —he has no knowledge or data. Do they remember a man by the name of Mr. Garwood (sp?) that came back?

Mr. WALTERS: Mr. Garwood stayed there voluntarily for quite a long time.

3rd CALLER: He's my—

Mr. WALTERS: He wasn't French, anyway.

But with regard to the French, the Franco-Vietnamese agreement ending the war in Vietnam required the return of all prisoners — all prisoners — except that the Vietnamese never gave them a list, either.

KING: So, there could be French people calling their shows tonight saying, "Where are our fathers?"

Mr. WALTERS: Well, I would just—

Mr. LORD: They didn't get any list, or they got an insufficient list?

Mr. WALTERS: They got no list, I don't believe.

Mr. LORD: Yes. So, we at least got a list, but it's not sufficient.

Mr. WALTERS: Just to give you an example of this, the Vietnamese claimed that they had probably our number-one objective was to end the war honorably, and our number two was to get the prisoners back. And therefore, they used this trump card for all it was worth. And in my mind, they led us deliberately to believe that they were holding people that they were not, in the hope that this would increase their leverage on us and bring the war to an end. The blame is in North Vietnam, not in the U.S. government.

KING: Back with more calls on Larry King Live. Don't forget: Norman Schwarzkopf a week from tomorrow, and Governor Mario Cuomo for a full hour Friday night. Don't go away.

Dr. KISSINGER: [testifying before Congress; September 22, 1992] Can anyone seriously believe that any

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honorable public official would neglect American servicemen, and especially those who suffered so much for their country; or, even worse, arrange for a conspiracy to obscure the fate of the prisoners left behind?

### [Commercial break]

**KING:** Welcome back to Larry King Live with Ambassadors Vernon Walters and Winston Lord.

And we go to Riverside, California. Hello.

**4th CALLER:** [Riverside, California] Hi. This question is for either of your two guests. My daughter is the goddaughter of Colonel Fred Cherry isp?] who, thankfully, came back after seven and a half years in Vietnam. My question concerns the lack of continuity. If there was this tremendous belief in the government that these people were still alive there, then neither Colonel Cherry nor any of the other POWs that I have met through him can understand why, during the Carter administration, there was absolutely no attention paid to this subject at all. Jimmv with it—

**KING:** Neither of these gentlemen served in the Carter administration.

**Mr. LORD:** I didn't serve, and I happen to be a Republican. I don't know the details of the Carter administration. I do know that he sent Ambassador Woodcock [sp?] over there very shortly after he was inaugurated to look into this question. Now, whether they had a sustained effort, I'm not prepared to judge, but I remember that mission. And by the way, Ambassador Woodcock came back and said, almost verbatim, what a Pentagon official has been quoted disapprovingly as saying, namely, there's no clear evidence that people are alive. Now, maybe it's a badly phrased statement, but it's been made by several administrations.

**KING:** Do you think the Carter administration tried, too?
**Mr. WALTERS:** I don't really know. I was out of the country during most of the Carter administration. But I would just say one thing. I, myself, served on the battlefields of World War II, the Greek civil war, Korea, and Vietnam, and the idea that anybody with the kind of background that I have and many high government officials did, would willingly hide what had happened to their comrades is really beyond my capacity to understand. But I do understand the agony of the families, because the uncertainty is almost worse than the confirmed report of death.

**KING:** Dallas, hello—

**Mr. LORD:** Let me add, also, President Carter is a compassionate man.

**KING:** Yes.

**Mr. LORD:** And I can't imagine he wasn't concerned about this issue.

**KING:** Dallas, go ahead.

**5th CALLER:** [Dallas, Texas] Yes, this is Dallas. I'm calling—I'm a 22-year veteran. I was in Vietnam in '69. Do those gentlemen there— Are they aware that, if I was in formation and my wingman got shot down, we had a pact hat if he got shot down I saw a shoot, because if I didn't see a shoot— my wife would get $10,000, which would be

my death benefit. If I saw a shoot, his wife would get his pay forever, the kids—I have four children. Do you think I want to go down to Vietnam and have my wife left with $10,000, when I can get her to receive my pay for the next 20 years and my children grow up?

**KING:** So, you say your buddy reports you dead?

**5th CALLER:** Why don't they get realistic about it? You saw shoots, OK? These people are dead. Like that woman called in, "My father is dead." That could be my daughter calling in 20 years ago, thinking that I'm an MIA. Would she rather have had the money all these years and had a good life; would she rather be starving?

**KING:** Never thought of that. Did you gentlemen ever?

**Mr. WALTERS:** I haven't, and it's a very, very tough dilemma. I wouldn't like to be put in the position of having to decide under those circumstances.

**KING:** Is that what we do? They pay you for life if—

**Mr. WALTERS:** I'm not familiar with that.

**KING:** Do they? You're paid for life?

**Mr. LORD:** I don't know the details.

**KING:** We're going to break and come back with our remaining moments with Winston Lord and Vernon Walters on Larry King Live — the topic that won't go away. Don't go away.

### [Commercial break]

**KING:** Hampstead, North Carolina, hello.

**6th CALLER:** [Quincy, Massachusetts] Hello?

**KING:** Yes, go ahead.

**6th CALLER:** Yes, actually, this is Quincy, Mass.

**KING:** All right, I'm sorry, go ahead.

**6th CALLER:** What I'd like to see come out of the Senate hearings is an absolute unanimous vote in the Congress and the Senate to let Vietnam know that the people still remember exactly what they've done. They've lied, they've been treacherous, and they've kept either, you know, secrets — either live Americans or dead Americans — behind our back; and not be nice to these people at all; let them know that—

**KING:** In other words, a statement of the Congress. What do you think?

**Mr. LORD:** I think that's a very constructive suggestion. I hope it's done.

**Mr. WALTERS:** I'm 100 percent for it.

**KING:** OK. This is Hampstead, North Carolina— And both gentlemen agree with that caller — good question.

Hello.

**7th CALLER:** [Hampstead, North Carolina] Yes, sir. If these gentlemen want to end the agony of the families, why don't they just simply declassify the files? The families cannot read their files. They have pages that are totally blacked-out, except for the "a's" and the "the's."

**KING:** Why is that?

**Mr. WALTERS:** Well, the only thing I can think of is that some of them may involve agents that we had in Vietnam or in Laos, and if their identity—

**KING:** But they wouldn't be there now, either.

**Mr. WALTERS:** Well, they might easily be there, if they were locals. They might easily be there, if they were locals.

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Mr. LORD: If he meant why don't we declassify it, because we don't have the authority to do that. My understanding is that an awful lot of files are being declassified. To the extent that we can, we should do it.

Mr. WALTERS: I would declassify everything that did not put someone's life in danger.

KING: And the people have a right to see their file.

Mr. WALTERS: That's right.

Mr. LORD: Absolutely.

KING: Thank you both very much.

Winston Lord and Vernon Walters — we thank them both; and Henry Kissinger earlier.

We'll be with you in one hour on *The Larry King Show* on Mutual Radio with Carl Sagan tonight; and then, back again tomorrow evening from New York.

Meanwhile, standing by in Atlanta is Susan Rook. She goes it alone tonight — dauntless into the night!

What's up, Susan?

SUSAN ROOK, "WorldNews": Larry, thank you much.

Next tonight: President Bush vetoed the family-leave bill approved by Congress. We'll see what might come next. Also, a major ruling in the battle over abortion. And, it could still become a three-major-candidate-race for the White House. We'll explain. *WorldNews* — right after this.

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