American Indian Life

Bulletin No. 25, October, 1934

219 First St. N. E., Washington; 426 Mills Bldg., San Francisco

CONGRESS DID NOT FAIL . . .

It passed the Wheeler-Howard Act. It is not the all-inclusive New Deal conceived in the original draft. It contains compromises with the old order which must be abrogated—outstandingly, the exclusion of Oklahoma's 100,000 Indians from the Act's most important benefits. But its objectives are fundamental; its approach sound. At last economic reconstruction and racial cohesion are integrated in law.

This Act and the Allotment Act of 1887 are the two most important Indian statutory forces. Setting aside the evils of the Allotment Act, let us recall what many of its really sincere proponents did on its enactment: they forgot it. They said, in effect: "This piece of paper will turn these pagan warriors into Christian homesteaders. Let us rejoice and return home to our own affairs." They pinned their faith on a statute, and left its administrators to do with it what they would. True, some individuals and groups cried against its workings, but no organized force of public opinion challenged its absolutism, its philosophy until forty years of devaluation had had their way. This fatal faith must be remembered in the development and administration of the Wheeler-Howard Act. Though it wipes out many of the evils of the allotment system, the Act is not perfect. But it allows of growth—and needs growth—and every Indian and friend of the Indian should keep this need alive and articulate. *Organized public opinion will decide whether the law shall be static, or perverted, or propelled to the full measure of its aims.*

To the Commissioner of Indian Affairs first credit is due for this victory. From his exact knowledge of Indian problems, his immeasurable vision, his faith in the Indian, he patterned this legislation. His courage and conviction routed the ill-informed and the predatory, and won a host of advocates who would be recorded here, if only space allowed. Conspicuous

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among them is Senator Burton K. Wheeler who so vigorously
kept to a minimum the compromises which had to be made, and
who so magnificently defended the bill on the Senate floor, pre-
venting its multilation by the snap-judgment amendments of his
colleagues. To him, and to the venerable Representative from
Nebraska, Edgar Howard, this Act is the keystone of their
life-long labors for the Indians. Conspicuous, too, was the work
of Congressman Hubert Peavey of Wisconsin whose strong
sense of justice and good-humored tact more than once protected
the measure from the onslaughts of the malcontents on the
House Committee.

Other important bills were enacted; chief among them the Johnson-O'Malley bill for which the AIDA has fought for years. Under this law (P. L. 167), individual states can now help their Indians in health, education and social welfare, under contracts with the Secretary of the Interior.

Of great import to the Navajos is the measure fixing finally the
boundaries of their reservation in Arizona. (P. L. 352.)

Two measures point to action on the new boarding school policy: P. L. 95 and 240 transferring abandoned boarding school plants at Mount Pleasant, Michigan, and Genoa, Nebraska to those states.

The old espionage laws were repealed—acts which were passed in the days of Indian warfare and which in modern times have been used not infrequently to suppress the Indians' freedom of association and protest. (P. L. 242.)

## THE WHEELER-HOWARD ACT

In 1887, bent on "civilizing" the Indian, Congress passed the General Allotment law. Forty-seven years later, in enacting the Wheeler-Howard bill, Congress completely reversed that law. It declared that Indian tribes desiring to take advantage of the Act's many benefits must agree against further division of lands in severalty. Rarely in legislative history has there been so complete a reversal of policy. In effect, Congress said to the Indians: If you want the United States to help you climb out of the poverty and hopelessness in which the allotment system has mired you, you must eschew that system in the future. Millions of dollars will be available for your economic and cultural salvation, but not another cent will be wasted upon the old land-robbing system.

In its simplest terms, the Wheeler-Howard Act aims to give to the Indians economic units of land for their continuing use and development, together with the education, credit and self-government necessary to full utilization of their land.

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**Self-determination:** The Wheeler-Howard Act is not offered to the Indians in a doctrinaire spirit. It is unique in its requirement (Section 18) that within one year after its approval by the President, all tribes shall determine by referenda whether they wish the new law to apply to them. If a majority vote indicates that the Indians of a particular reservation favor the Act, then immediately it becomes applicable to them. If they reject it, their present status shall continue.

**Protection of Indian Lands:** The land sections, taken together, have for their purpose the protection of the remaining Indian lands from dissipation, and the acquisition of new lands necessary to the development of self-subsistent rural life. Section 1, which prohibits further allotment, does not affect lands already distributed, but it does protect the great unallotted areas against the disintegration that has always followed the parceling of Indian lands in severalty.

Additional protection for Indian lands is provided by Section 2 which cancels all laws terminating the trust period on Indian lands (such termination resulting in taxation and disposal) until Congress shall otherwise direct.

Unfortunately, the Act does not go far enough in arresting the loss of the presently allotted lands which are rapidly leaving Indian title for white. While it limits the sale or transfer of such "restricted" lands to the tribe or tribal corporation, and while it limits the inheritance of these lands to members of the tribe or their heirs—and thus, the Secretary of the Interior can no longer sanction the sale of Indian lands to whites—the Act does, however, perpetuate the intolerable inheritance system which of its nature forces a hopelessly uneconomic divisioning of inherited lands. The multiplicity of heirs reduce a patch of land to tragic fractions. In the past, these lands have had to be sold to satisfy the heirs; and this has meant sale to whites for the Indians have neither had the money nor the credit to buy them. There are now about seven million acres of Indian lands in this heirship status. They cannot possibly support individual heirs and so they must be sold; or leased for a pittance. The Act requires that they be kept in Indian ownership, and since it would be a financial impossibility for the Government to purchase these lands for the tribes, the solution lies with the heirs: They must of their own volition surrender their inherited lands to the tribes in return for a proportionate interest in tribal estate.

Section 6 compels the Secretary of the Interior to operate Indian owned forests on the sustained yield principle; and also to prevent soil deterioration and erosion by restricting the numbers of the livestock grazed on Indian ranges to their carrying capacity, and assuring full utilization of the land. Indian forests now standing will thus be given the scientific management and use that was so greviously lacking in the past.

**Land Acquisition:** To build up the Indian land holdings to a sufficiency for present and future needs, Section 5 authorizes an annual appropriation of two million dollars for the purchase of new lands. This sum will by no means meet the immediate necessities of the landless Indians, but over a period of years, it will give them an economic foothold. Section 3 which provides for the return to Indian tribal ownership of all unsettled surplus lands will also increase Indian land-holdings on certain reservations. (Surplus lands are areas within original reservation

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boundaries which were opened to white settlement at the time a reservation was allotted, on the blind theory that it was over and above the Indians' needs.)

**Tribal Organization:** The importance of Section 16 lies principally in its legal recognition of the right to organize—a right which heretofore has been subject wholly to the whim or prejudice of successive administrations. This section authorizes every tribe to adopt a constitution and by-laws upon their ratification by a majority of the adult members, and the approval of the Secretary of the Interior. Once a constitution is so adopted, it can be amended or revoked only by the tribe itself. In addition to any powers which a tribe may have acquired heretofore, the constitution may include the rights to employ counsel, subject to approval as to choice and fees; veto appropriations of tribal funds; be advised of all appropriation estimates affecting the tribe before submission to the Budget and to Congress; and to negotiate with Federal, state and local governments. These rights constitute only a modest delegation of power, but the act lends itself to revision in the future to extend the scope of self-management.

**Tribal Incorporation:** The idea of tribal incorporation was originally suggested by Commissioner Leupp during President Theodore Roosevelt's administration. It is at last to have a demonstration of its practicality. Under Section 17 of the Wheeler-Howard Act, an Indian tribe may obtain a charter of incorporation, issued by the Secretary of the Interior and ratified by a majority of the adult members of the tribe. Only Congress may revoke a charter. By use of the corporate technique, it is expected that practically all the tribes will adopt the modern means of organization for precisely the same reasons which actuate whites-efficient and productive group exploitation of their assets. Only tribal corporations may borrow from the revolving loan fund mentioned below.

**Funds for Organization:** By Section 9, an annual appropriation of $250,000 is authorized to cover the expenses of forming the tribal and corporate organizations.

**Revolving Loan Fund:** With "restricted" property which could not be pledged for financial assistance, the Indian has heretofore been handi-capped as has no other class of the population in the use of his resources. Section 10 of the Act provides for the establishment of a ten million dollar revolving loan fund. As previously stated, only tribal corporations may secure loans from the fund. This is a wise provision; it will simplify administration and develop group responsibility and resourcefulness.

**Aid for Higher Education:** Section 11 authorizes an annual expenditure of $250,000 for educational loans to Indians to enable them to attend high schools, colleges, vocational schools or trade schools. In the past, the niggardly sum available for such purposes accounted largely for the small number of Indians who qualified for the higher rungs in the Indian service. Reimbursable, such loans will be regulated by the Commissioner. Of the total sum, not more than $50,000 may be loaned to Indians attending high schools or colleges. The remainder is to be loaned to Indians attending trade and vocational schools-schools of agriculture, forestry, nursing, medicine, law, mining, business or art.

**Indian Civil Service:** To eliminate superficial and unfair Civil Service

(Continued on page 16)

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## MAN-HANDLING THE PAPAGOS

By unworthy nuisance tactics, the Arizona delegation forced a settlement of the Papago mineral lands controversy into the Wheeler-Howard Act. We consider this settlement a serious injustice to the Papagos. Anxiety to make the Wheeler-Howard bill law, explains the Administration's capitulation on this issue. It apparently allowed the injection of this extraneous matter into the Act only because it could not overcome persistent political pressure.

A Presidential Executive Order created the Papago Indian Reservation in 1917. It granted ownership of the surface to the Papagos, and reserved title of the sub-surface in the United States. Accordingly, the reservation was regarded as public domain for mining purposes; miners located minerals and took out patents under the mining laws of the United States. As mining developed, however, it became imperative that some balance be struck in protection of the Papagos' livestock industry, and in prevention of further alienation of their lands through the patenting of claims. Secretary Ray Lyman Wilbur made a decisive step in this direction in October 1932 when he issued an order prohibiting the taking of claims upon the reservation.

Arizonans protested that this withdrawal order was without legal justification; but no test was made in the courts. Instead, their delegates in Congress vigorously demanded a rescindment of the order. With equal vigor they fought legislative attempts to protect the Papagos' surface rights.

Complicating the issue was the claim that the Papagos had ownership not only of the surface, but also of the minerals. Last March, in an exhaustive opinion on this claim, Solicitor Nathan Margold established that the Indians had no right to the minerals; that the Arizonans were within their rights in demanding the cancellation of the withdrawal; but that in fairness to the Indians' surface interest, a law should be enacted providing compensation for damages and loss of lands, and protecting the Papagos' sources of water. Solicitor Margold prepared such a bill, and it was submitted to the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs. Immediately, opposition came from Arizona and from the State's delegation in Congress.

Later, when the Wheeler-Howard bill came before the Senate,

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Senator Ashurst introduced an amendment to rescind the Wilbur withdrawal order—no mention of Papago rights. He met with determined resistance from Senator Wheeler. The following quotation reveals Senator Ashurst's attitude:

SENATOR WHEELER: "Also I should like to ask the Senator from Arizona this question: Suppose a mining company or individuals go in there to engage in mining, are they willing to pay the Indians a rental for the surface rights?"

SENATOR ASHURST: "I cannot speak for them. So far as I am concerned, I would reject such a proposal. I decline to live by any man's leave underneath the law."

A modified form of the Ashurst amendment was eventually accepted, with the tacit understanding that it would be further amended in the House in protection of the Papagos. In the House, after further battle, Mrs. Greenway finally agreed to the Papago settlement that appears in the Wheeler-Howard Act.

So far as Indian interests are concerned, that settlement is a distortion of the Margold bill. It makes no mention of the all-important element: water. It in no sense prevents a slow whittling of the reservation.

The Margold bill was drafted on a just appraisal of the rights of both whites and Indians. The bill or a bill of equally unprejudiced intent must be wrested from the Arizonans in the next session of Congress.

## OKLAHOMA AND THE WHEELER-HOWARD ACT

At the special instance of the Oklahoma delegation, Congress perpetuated the fiction that Oklahoma Indians are different to all others. The most important sections of the Wheeler-Howard Act were by a special section made *non-applicable to the Indians of Oklahoma*: i. e., continuation of the trust period; limitation on the inheritance, sale and transfer of Indian lands; the establishment of new reservations on newly purchased lands; the right to form tribal organizations and tribal corporations; and the holding of referenda to permit them to elect whether or not they want the act to apply to them. (Sections 2, 4, 7, 16, 17 and 18.)

This leaves applicable to Oklahoma only those sections dealing with Indian Civil Service, educational loans, the revolving

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loan fund, the appropriation for organization of tribal councils and corporations, the two million dollar appropriation for new lands, and the prohibition of further allotment.

Let us look at these gift-horses:

Since Oklahoma Indians are denied the right to form corporations, they cannot borrow from the ten million dollar revolving loan fund.

Since they are denied the right to form tribal organizations and corporations, the $250,000 appropriation for the formation of such groups is useless to them.

Since the Act provides that newly purchased lands be added to existing Indian reservations, or set apart as new reservations, and since the Oklahoma Indians are excluded from that provision, it is inconceivable that the Federal government would buy lands for these Indians unless it had full control over such lands when they fell into heirship status. Therefore, the two million dollar annual appropriation for the purchase of new Indian lands cannot be considered applicable to Oklahoma Indians.

Therefore, the prohibition of further allotment—and what land have they to allot?—the educational loan, and the Indian Civil Service provision are the Oklahoma Indians' miserable share in the New Deal.

How much longer will the Oklahoma Indians be pauperized by a system of law which has for its main purpose the accelerated dissipation of their lands and property? The tribes of Oklahoma need the Wheeler-Howard Act as do few other tribes. Yet they were in substance excluded from its benefits, not by *their* decision, but by the decision of the Oklahoma delegation. The record is explicit and undeniable that an overwhelming majority of Oklahoma Indians voted in favor of the original bill of which the enacted Act is a distillation. This dictum of the Oklahoma delegation was accepted only because in the race against time in the closing days of the session, it was imperative to secure the Act for the Indians of the rest of the country.

The Oklahoma issue must be met head-on in the next session of Congress. Only by forcing it to the center of attention and demanding a show-down can the Administration and the friends of the Oklahoma Indians show their sincerity of purpose.

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SAVING THE NAVAJOS

For generations, over-grazing has accelerated soil erosion on the Navajo reservations, weakening alike herd and herdsman. To drift, to allow this denudement to run its deadly course would mean the destruction of the Navajo race within a few years. Faced with this catastrophic decay, the Indian Bureau has substituted action for decades of talk. With all necessary haste, it has partially diverted the Navajo way of life into a new, temporary and complicated economy where to a certain degree soil restoration work replaces the tending of flocks and other customary pursuits. Extensive programs of activity, touching every side of Navajo life, have been introduced. The rock of appropriations has been smitten doubly hard in behalf of the imperilled Navajos—over nine million dollars of special federal funds are being applied to their problems.

The program is vast; complex. Speed is essential. Of equal importance, for its psychological effects, is a smooth transition. Mistakes are being made, undoubtedly, and it is impossible to gauge the outcome of this wholesale channeling of ancient thought and habit. But the need is stubborn, inflexible, and the present Indian policy framers, distinguished for their capacity to project themselves into Indian thought, are attacking this need according to their enlightened intelligence. There follows a brief outline of their program, drawn from information available in Washington.

SOIL EROSION AND RANGE CONTROL: Walter V. Woehlke, the Indian Commissioner's special representative, has graphically defined erosion in the Navajo country:

> "... Sheet erosion and gully formation is proceeding at an ever-increasing rate. As the gullies form, they drain the ground water of the valleys, rendering them arid and incapable of supporting a grass cover. Deprived of valley and mesa grass, the flocks climb the hills and mountain-sides, browsing on the brush until it, too, is destroyed and the thin soil departs, leaving the gaunt rock ribs bare and sterile."

The Navajos have squarely and bravely faced the situation. They have agreed to reduce the total number of their sheep by at least one-third; their flock of goats by 200,000. Already they have disposed of 90,000 sheep. To remunerate the individual owner for his sacrifice, they were willing to mortgage the tribal

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income for years to come. This sacrifice was obviated, however, by an appropriation of $250,000 from the Drought Relief Association, $200,000 of which will be used for the purchase of goats, and $50,000 for sheep. The slaughtered stock will be used for F. E. R. A. relief next winter. Various temporary sources of income have been opened up to fill the gap: Emergency Conservation Work, road building, construction of community centers, and the engineering projects connected with soil erosion.

At Mexican Springs, on the Southern Navajo Reservation, eighteen miles north of Gallup, the Department of the Interior is conducting its largest project in the recovery of soil. For several months five hundred Indians under the direction of a large technical staff have been building dams, fencing and removing flocks in this experimental station of twenty miles long by five miles wide. The experiment will be valuable both to the Indians and to the Soil Erosion Service. It will among other things demonstrate how many sheep, goats, and cattle a given type of range can carry and still recover to its maximum efficiency the forage supply and ground cover.

EDUCATION: "Know thyself." That is the core of the new Navajo educational policy. It will influence every man, woman and child to think and act so that GRASS, their life-stream, shall be permanently restored. Inherent in this emphasis on environment is Navajo history and culture, ancient and modern. Inherent, too, is bi-lingualism. With an individual awareness of the weaknesses and potentialities of their particular economic structure, and an individual understanding of their economic interdependence upon the rest of the country, they can save themselves. To quote Dr. W. Carson Ryan, Director of the Division of Education:

> "... unless the soil erosion problem is solved for the Navajos, their land simply will not support them more than a few years longer. This is an immediate and urgent situation. To postulate a so-called educational program or any other kind of program in defiance of it would simply mean that we would have a program, and no Indians."

The program will be diffused through forty-five community centers, for the construction of which the Public Works Administration has allotted $1,839,000. These centers will not be schools in the customary use of the term. They will include work-shops, health clinics, home economics rooms, dining-rooms

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and demonstration gardens. Every tool, every idea derives from what the Indian now has and is. These centers are intended to reach not only the 14,000 Navajo children (of whom eight to nine thousand do not now go to any school), but also the entire adult population. In fact, initially, they will be used by adults, with a gradual reaching down the age-scale to the children.

**HEALTH:** In its strong emphasis on active Navajo co-operation, the health program is promising. Local public health organizations will be established, with Indian representation, and employing Indian sanitary inspectors. Dr. W. W. Peter (distinguished for his work in China, the Philippines, Malay states and the Near East) is in charge of all health work on the reservation. The field clinics—a unit of the community school center—will bring instruction on the treatment and prevention of disease into the hogan, and will detect incipient tuberculosis, trachoma, etc. In the day schools, children will be protected from trachoma by the hospitalization of trachomatous children in boarding schools maintained for their exclusive use.

In line with these plans, Miss Sally Lucas Jeans, Director of Health Education, recently conducted in Santa Fe the first session of the "Nurses' Aid Institute." About one hundred Navajo girls attended the six weeks training in elementary health work. At the conclusion, fifteen girls were selected to fill positions as assistants to the regular field nursing staff; the others returned to their hogans to apply their valuable training. With admirable common sense, Miss Jeans built two hogans wherein instruction was keyed to actual hogan conditions and facilities—babies were bathed in oil cans; every last drop of water was utilized; adobe, treated with linseed oil, produced hard surface floors.

**THE NAVAJO MOUNTED POLICE:** The maintenance of law and order in the far-flung Navajo country is a knotty problem under ordinary circumstances. It has been intensified by bootleggers and gamblers who have descended on the reservation in the wake of the wages earned in the Emergency Conservation Work camps and other special projects. Alarmed at the growth of this evil, the Tribal Council at its meeting last March proposed and endorsed the formation of a body of Navajo mounted police. A month later twenty-seven policemen, two lieutenants and one captain—all full-blood Indians, and only five speaking the English language—were organized and trained

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by Chief Special Officers Louis Mueller. One of the body's first services was the capture of three suspected murderers.

**ADMINISTRATION:** At present five separate though contiguous reservations (covering 25,000 square miles and with an Indian population of 45,000) are administered as distinct units under as many superintendents. These arbitrary divisions are about to be abolished, and the consolidated area will be placed under one principal administrator, not yet selected as we go to press.

Ground has been broken for the capital of the Navajo nation, seven miles south of Fort Defiance, Arizona. Its name was chosen by the Navajos: Nee Alneeng, meaning, "Center of the Navajo World." Almost a million dollars will be spent in constructing fifty buildings on this site. All work for and by the tribe will be concentrated there; and from it administration will be decentralized to twenty-five sub-agencies and numerous neighborhoods within the reservation, making possible, as Commissioner Collier hopes, "... a close union between the government's administration and the political and cultural organization of the Navajo people." It is hoped that in this new Navajo set-up the advantage of transferring reservation administration from Washington to the Superintendent and the Indians can be successfully demonstrated.

Construction of the first of the administration buildings—the Navajo Council House—is now under way. It is polygonal, of rock and stone. It will resemble two great hogans, the smaller superimposed upon the larger, and will seat five hundred. From it will stem twin hogans which will accommodate committee meetings.

Politically, the organization of the Navajos now centers in their tribal council. Before that body, the Administration places all policies for approval. Commissioner Collier has removed every inhibition and offered every inducement to a steady growth of tribal initiative and control.

* * *

The most ambitious cultural experiment ever conducted by our Indian Bureau is now well on its way. In forthcoming issues of *American Indian Life*, we will deal more critically of these plans, many of which are as yet only projections of a solemn determination to save the Navajos.

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## COLLETT'S "DOCKWEILER BILL"

At the Senate Committee's hearing on California Indian Affairs in San Francisco, July 2, Senators Wheeler and Thomas performed a vital service when they aired the purposes of the Dockweiler Bill which was so strenuously but unsuccessfully supported by F. G. Collett and his organization (Indians of California, Inc.) in the last session of Congress.

The bill was thinly disguised. Its enactment would have given Collett and his followers legal sanction to employ lawyers as "attorneys of record" in the prosecution of the California Indians' Court of Claims suit now pending, with an attending share of the award in the form of attorneys' expenses and fees.

The Jurisdictional Act of 1928 designated the Attorney General of California to prosecute the suit. At the hearing, Collett grossly charged Attorney General U. S. Webb with being dilatory, negligent and incompetent in handling the case. These baseless misrepresentations were justly condemned and refuted by Senator Wheeler.

Back of all this lies Collett's brazen plan to gain a legal foothold in this suit. Incessantly, he has disturbed and divided the Indians with distortions of fact. The Indians are told that the Attorney General is not suing for a sufficiently large award; that fabulous sums could be recovered by the right lawyers; that a "consent decree" is being hatched up; that the necessary accounting data could be gathered more quickly, if additional lawyers were employed, etc. Naturally, there is intense dissatisfaction among those Indians who not only believe these untruths, but who bolster their belief by supporting Collett and his organization with their miserably few dollars, running in the aggregate to six-figure sums annually.

We agree with Senator Wheeler's contention that the Indians should be represented by their own counsel, if they so wish, and that such counsel should be approved by the Attorney General. But we despair of its workability. How could 23,000 Indians scattered over the length and breadth of California—with here and there voluble, misguided cliques—come into agreement upon a limited number of attorneys? And granting this achievement, how much of the award would be eaten up in attorneys' fees and expenses? It was precisely to obviate these

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difficulties and losses to the California Indians that the Attorney General was designated to prosecute the suit, without cost to the Indians.

The anticipated award will amount to about seven million dollars. There will be no money to spare for parasites; every cent of it is sorely needed for a broad social program among the Indians of California.

## REORGANIZATION
### "AT A SNAIL'S PACE"

Every student of Indian affairs, every survey of Indian administration has demanded the reorganization of the Indian Bureau. Every administration has promised it, but none has accomplished more than an atom of the job to be done.

The present Administration is no exception. It perpetuates the old system of uncoordinated services within the Indian Bureau; each service so ignorant of the other's function and purpose as to destroy all concept of their oneness and common goal.

This old nightmare of cross-purpose and negative purpose is a serious threat to the administration of the Wheeler-Howard Act. The Bureau knows this. If frankly admits that it is moving towards reorganization at "a snail's pace," and with over a year of its assured life-span of four years already behind it, we frankly admit that we despair of any fundamental progress being achieved "at a snail's pace."

True, the Bureau has taken a few sturdy steps: It has ordered a codification of the thousands and thousands of pages of Bureau rules and regulations that apply to field administration. (An appreciation of what this codification should mean can be gleaned from a comparison with the Canadian system: There, an Indian agent can slip into his pocket all the rules and regulations under which he must administer his jurisdiction.)

What is more important is the Departmental Order of July 14th last—"Statement of New Indian Service Policies"—which emphasized the need of shifting to superintendents the responsibility for developing programs on their reservations, thus molding the various technical services and projects into a consistent and coordinated purpose. It attempts to cut the slow-

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moving mass of paper administration between Washington and the reservations, and to "build up the Indian Office on a professional basis, leaving the superintendents free to work out plans for their programs, and when they have done this, on their own initiative, to come back to the Office for administrative approval." This is an excellent beginning, but unless the Superintendents' control is more specifically defined, and the plan is aggressively developed, and unless the Indian Bureau regears itself to handle the ensuing programs with despatch, another good plan will die a-borning.

Whatever the techniques employed, these are the imperatives of reorganization:

* To limit the Washington office and its staff to the function of an advisory, supervisory and consultative body of experts.

* To delegate authority to the field, and, where necessary, to go to Congress for legislation to increase the scope within which this can be done.

* To end the present system of perpetually transferring employees from one jurisdiction to another.

* To eliminate every element of uncertainty and ignorance from the minds of the field forces as to the present Administration's policies and motivating philosophy through the medium of regular administrative bulletins which would amplify and develop aims and methods. The end-result for which the Wheeler-Howard Act is driving is a closed book to many individuals who are depended upon for the direct execution of specific orders.

## THE NEXT CONGRESS

**FISCAL REFORM IN THE INDIAN BUREAU:** In the last session, proponents of the "alternate" plan of Indian Bureau budgeting were defeated in four separate attempts to secure this reform. Briefly stated, its aim is to abolish existing appropriation practices, with their incomprehensible overlapping, continuing and concealed items, and to substitute a simple, understandable arrangement of Indian Bureau appropriations, based upon jurisdictions and upon the various services conducted in each jurisdiction. Only with the greatest difficulty can specific fiscal information be secured on each reservation now by the Indians, the public or by members of Congress. The present system places dictatorial power in the hands of a few members of the Appropriations Committees in Congress. The "alternate" plan is essential not alone to an

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intelligent, intelligible functioning of the Indian Bureau, but also to the execution of Section 16 of the Wheeler-Howard Act which requires that all estimates of expenditures be submitted to the Indians for approval.

**SETTLEMENT OF INDIAN CLAIMS:** Hampering all phases of Indian progress are the pending suits in the Court of Claims, based upon old treaty claims and depredations of the past. Nearly every tribe has one or more of these suits. Their face value is over a billion dollars and it is calculated that it will take generations to adjust them through the present system. It now takes years for an Indian tribe even to get into the Court of Claims under a jurisdictional act of Congress, and in extending the permission, Congress practically prejudges the issues, and writes conditions into the jurisdictional act which dictate the outcome of the litigation. Usually, all Government expenditures on behalf of the suing tribe are deducted from the award—in a recent case these deductions exceeded the amount of the award. The whole system is costly to the Indians, both in money and morale, and inexcusably slow. Thousands of Indians waste their lives, awaiting the millennium when the Court of Claims will shower gold on them. The Senate Committee on Indian Affairs and the Institute of Government Research have examined this subject with great care; and the latter group has drafted legislation which should provide the 74th Congress with the ground-work for a practical and acceptable solution.

**LAW AND ORDER ON THE RESERVATIONS:** Superintendents must be relieved immediately of the unnecessary, time-consuming burdens thrust upon them by the chaotic law enforcement system. Some cases create a conflict between State and Federal jurisdiction; other cases arise in wide areas outside either of those jurisdictions, making it impossible for a Superintendent to get justice for or against Indian or white. Congress can clear up this intolerable waste of effort and money by comprehensive legislation which will clearly place responsibility for the administration of justice, and provide the means for its exercise. This is another problem which has been studied and investigated inside out, and on which legislative action is long overdue.

**OKLAHOMA:** The allotment system, plus Oklahoma's county court control over the inherited properties of the Five

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Civilized Tribes (of one-half or more Indian blood), has reduced their restricted estate from nearly twenty million acres to one million and one-half acres in 26 years. In the last session a bill was introduced to transfer this county control to the federal government, but it did not even get out of committee. Is this plunder of twenty-eight thousand helpless people to continue down to the last acre? The next Congress will decide.

(Continued from page 4)

vice requirements which at present prevent Indians from qualifying for the Indian Service, Section 12 directs the establishment of special standards of fitness for all positions in the Indian Service, applicable only to Indians. Indians who qualify must receive preference in appointments to vacancies as they occur.

*Definition of an Indian:* In one important respect, the Wheeler-Howard bill moves toward a truer definition of the term, Indian. For purposes of securing benefits under this Act, it recognizes as Indians those who are now members of a recognized tribe, regardless of the degree of blood (whether on or off a reservation), and those who are descendants of such members of a recognized tribe who were living on a reservation on June 1, 1934. These two groups are essentially the legally "enrolled" Indians, but in addition to these, there are large numbers of unenrolled landless Indians, in need of the assistance which the Wheeler-Howard Act offers. In considering these Indians the Wheeler-Howard Act is applicable only to those of one-half or more Indian blood. This will have the salutary effect of disillusioning white people of small quantities of Indian blood from believing they are something they are not.

*Alaska:* Certain sections—those dealing with the revolving loan fund, the fund for higher education, the Indian Civil Service, tribal organization (Sections 9, 10, 11, 12 and 16)—are made applicable to Alaska.

## Issued on Behalf of the American Indian Defense Association, Inc., and Its Branches, by the Indian Defense Associations of California

The Indian Defense Associations have a united National Program. They are governed locally by autonomous Boards of Directors. They invite members through the National office and within their respective areas. The officers of the American Indian Defense Association, Inc., are Haven Emerson, M. D., President; Fred M. Stein, Treasurer.

New York, Washington, Milwaukee, Oshkosh, Salt Lake City, Pasadena, Los Angeles, Santa Barbara, San Francisco

National Office, 219 First Street N. E., Washington, D. C.
Western Office, 426 Mills Building, San Francisco

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80426.

UNITED STATES
DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
Office of Indian Affairs
Washington

January 20, 1934

Indian
Self-government.

To Superintendents, Tribal Councils and Individual Indians.

In the reorganization of Indian administration it is desired
to have the tribal organizations participate to as large an extent
as possible in self-government and the management of matters of pure-
ly local policy and interest.

In order that this may be accomplished with as much satisfaction
as possible to the Indians themselves, and realizing that varying
problems on the different reservations will require varying solutions
to meet local conditions, it is desired that the Indians of each res-
ervation be given an opportunity to consider plans for enlarged self-
government and to formulate and present for administrative considera-
tion suggested methods of organization.

While the Interior Department hopes that additional lands may be
supplied to Indians needing land, and that the settlement of tribal
claims may be greatly speeded up, it is important for the Indians to
know that these advantages will be largely dependent on (a) a revision
of the existing land-laws, particularly the allotment-laws, and (b) the
formulation of plans for Indian self-government and organized self-
help. It is with these matters (the land system and self-government)
that this communication primarily deals.

Two outstanding questions which should be considered by the
tribes are the better enforcement of law and order regulations and
the better administration of land holding and ownership.

In considering law enforcement regulation particular study should
be made of the extent to which state laws, both civil and criminal,
should be made applicable on Indian reservations; what judicial, police
and official organizations should be created to administer such laws;
and to what extent the Indians themselves should participate in such
administration and promulgate necessary laws and ordinances for them-
selves.

In considering land administration a free and frank presentation
should be made by the superintendent and agency officials showing the
tendency and eventual result of the present allotment regulations;
that is, to gradually effect the alienation of the landed assets of

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the tribe and of individual Indians. Free discussion of alternatives to the allotment system should be invited and encouraged, and the advantages of corporate or cooperative organization in the administration of Indian economic affairs should be thoroughly canvassed.

Discussion of other questions vital to the tribes of the reservations may be desired; and the Office should be advised of the conclusions reached by the Indians as resulting from such discussions.

In jurisdictions where a tribal business council is already organized and functioning, these matters can be taken up with that organization; but where such an organization does not now exist, the Office desires that the superintendent arrange for a tribal meeting or meetings and such action as will afford full publicity and knowledge among all members of the tribe of the matters under consideration, and that final action be taken and recommendation made by a body of members which will be fully representative of the entire membership of the tribe.

As a guide for discussion and consideration, the following is submitted as a tentative program. Varying conditions in some jurisdictions may require departures from this outline.

# I. THE EVILS OF THE ALLOTMENT SYSTEM.

Experience under the allotment system reveals two major evils:

1. The loss of local self-government and the breakdown of the Indian Community.

2. The loss of Indian lands and the uneconomic and unequal distribution of lands remaining in Indian ownership.

1. The aim of the allotment system was the ultimate absorption of the Indian population in the surrounding white community. It looked forward to the day when the Indian would become absolute owner of his property and manager of his own affairs.

The immediate objective of the Indian Administration during the period of guardianship was to develop the competence of individual Indians in economic affairs. This policy necessitated the establishment of a large body of white officials whose duty was and is to supervise in close detail the every-day life of the Indian wards. During this process of so-called education of the Indian, the community life and political responsibility of the Indian have largely been destroyed.

2. The Federal Government has failed to substitute any satisfactory alternative for the Indian Community which it attempted to destroy. The Indians for the most part have not found economic or social opportunities in the surrounding white communities, and have

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generally returned to the reservation.

The allotment system also threatens to dissipate or prevent the use of the principal remaining assets of the Indians, their lands. On most reservations where it has been in effect for any considerable number of years, the best lands of the Indians have been lost to the whites through voluntary sales, frequently for a small consideration quickly squandered, or through tax sales or mortgage foreclosures or through sales by the government of heirship allotments. The allotment system also prevents the proper use of the lands that remain in Indian possession. The concentration of the Indian population on the Indian reservation was not anticipated by the framers of the allotment system. Under these conditions the allotment system is unworkable. In the absence of new lands for settlement it compels endless subdivision of the family holdings or else the sale of the lands.

At the outset the allotment of Indian lands broke up grazing and forest areas which had best been maintained in large units. With the death of the original allottee, and especially after the death of some of the heirs, even farm lands were frequently further subdivided among so many individual owners that no one of them was able to make profitable use of the land. The consequence has been the sale or lease of the lands to outsiders.

Furthermore, the inequalities in inheritance have aggravated inequalities in individual holdings. Since the Indian population tends to concentrate on the limited area of the reservation, this must lead to a loss of economic opportunity for many.

The breaking up of landholdings under the allotment system has seriously impaired the necessary program of education of the Indian in the proper use of his land. The leasing of the lands has not only prevented the Indian from using it himself, but has absorbed much of the energies of the Indian Bureau officials and funds of the Government which might have been devoted to the economic development of the Indian.

## II. THE PROGRAM OF THE ADMINISTRATION.

It is the belief of the Administration that these evils can be remedied by a program directed toward two fundamental principles:

1. To establish Indian self-government and to promote a healthy and satisfactory community life.

2. To preserve and develop Indian lands in Indian ownership and to provide the opportunity of economic livelihood for all who choose to remain within the Indian Community.

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## 1. Self-Government.

It is recognized that the Indians of each reservation have a right to participate to the fullest extent possible in the handling of their own affairs. It is, therefore, suggested that under suitable legislation Indian communities, wherever they desire increased powers of self-government and are equipped by tradition, experience, or education to exercise such powers, should be organized and chartered as municipal corporations, and that such municipal corporations should be entrusted with powers and responsibilities similar to those customarily exercised by a village or county government.

Powers of government now exercised over the Indians by employees of the Indian Bureau should be gradually transferred to the chartered Indian community, as its members progress in the ability to administer the functions of government. Meanwhile every effort will be made to train and employ Indians qualified for the service. While Federal employees continue to exercise governmental powers over Indians they should be responsible to the chartered Indian Community, should be required to report their plans and achievements to the regular government of the Indian Community, and should be subject to transfer from the reservation, at the request of the Indian Community, where they are unable to work effectively with the community.

Finally, the Indian Community should be given the maximum measure of control over its economic life and, in particular, over expenditures of its own funds. It is recognized that the effectuation of this policy depends upon the development of Indian responsibility in financial matters, and to this end every effort should be made to give Indians an intelligent understanding of their existing rights and obligations in such matters and to encourage free discussion of their present financial problems.

## 2. Tenure of Land.

It is essential to a satisfactory community life that a firm economic basis be established for the livelihood of the members. To this end the Administration proposes to preserve Indian lands in Indian ownership. Any system of land tenure which may be substituted for the present system must prevent the alienation of Indian lands to outsiders so long as there are Indians in the community who need this land.

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It is the belief of the Administration that any satisfactory community plan must be based upon a system of land tenure which secures the economic use of the land. In place of the present system with its scattered individual holdings, growing more complicated with every inheritance, the Indian Community should be empowered to promulgate a plan of community development, to block out Indian lands in economic units fit for farming, grazing, or timber operations, and adaptable to satisfactory location of private homes and community buildings, and to secure the most satisfactory use of Indian lands by Indians.

Finally, it is the belief of the Administration that a satisfactory solution of the land problem requires measures to prevent the growing inequality of land holdings which the allotment system encourages. Because of the limited land available, or which can be purchased by the Government for the Indians, it is necessary to prevent such an increase in the holdings of a few individuals as would deprive others of an opportunity to make a livelihood on the reservation. The duty of the United States Government towards the Indians is a duty towards the unborn, as well as towards those Indians now alive. The United States Government cannot, therefore, transfer its governmental functions to an Indian Community unless that community is prepared to establish a system of land holding which will assure to all Indians born on the reservation a fair share of land. It is hoped that the Government will be able to cooperate, where such a system is established, by providing some aid in the acquisition of new lands needed to supplement present Indian holdings.

Various ways in which the evils of the allotment system can be eliminated and the constructive purposes here set forth can be achieved are suggested in the remainder of this paper.

### III. SUGGESTED PROBLEMS AND POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS.

The following matters are outlined not for the purpose of dictating to the Indians the form of their community government and land tenure, but simply as matters which the Indians must consider in attempting to work out a satisfactory method of government and land tenure for themselves.

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# FORM OF SELF-GOVERNMENT.

## (a). Officers.

How many officers shall there be and what shall be their titles? One possible arrangement would be to have a council of about six to twelve councilmen and to give this council the right to choose, either from its own members or from outside its members, a chief executive ("president", "governor", "chief" or "chairman"), subordinate executive officials, judges, policemen, and special individuals or committees to take care of leasing of lands, land distribution, finances and credit, timber land, irrigation, community buildings, etc.

Furthermore, where a reservation is divided into several districts it will be necessary to decide whether the districts of the reservation should have special officers assigned to them by the central governing body, and whether such officials should be members of the district to which they are assigned.

## (b). Manner of elections.

How, where and in what manner should elections be held? When and how should nominations be held?

## (c). Membership in community.

Shall all the residents of the reservation who are of Indian descent, or married to an Indian, be admitted to citizenship or membership in the proposed community, or shall any restrictions, depending upon degree of blood or length of residence on the reservation, be provided?

## (d). Method of legislation.

Shall complete legislative power be given to officials, or shall they be required to submit to popular vote certain kinds of legislative proposals?

## (e). Recall or impeachment of officers.

Some procedure should be provided whereby particular officers who fail in the duty of their office may be recalled or impeached, either by the community or by a trial and vote by certain other officers.

## (f). Constitution.

The rules and regulations concerning the manner of government that may be agreed upon among the Indians should be formulated into a written Constitution and if approved by the United States Government,

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this constitution will be incorporated into the Charter which the Govern-
ment will issue to the Community as a guarantee of the rights of the
Indians of the reservation.

## 2. FUNCTIONS OF GOVERNMENT.

It is not expected that the Indians of the tribes will want to
take over immediately all the powers and functions of the government.
It is expected, for instance, that they will want the United States
to continue, for some time, health and educational services and the
provision of certain advisory officials. The Indians of the reserves
should consider all the different tasks which the Federal
Government now performs on their behalf and make recommendations as
to which of these tasks should be transferred to the Indian Community,
and which should remain in the hands of the Federal Government.
The following matters are listed as matters which the Indians
should consider in forming a constitution and a set of ordinances
for self-government.

### (a). Ordinances.

It is expected that the Indian Community will have its own
ordinances similar in scope to the ordinances of a county, town, or
territory. These ordinances should lay down specified punishments
for misdemeanors and for any offenses which do not come into the
Federal Courts (for instance, drunkenness, disorderly conduct,
adultery, perjury, dishonesty, etc.). In order to avoid possible
complaints, it is advisable that these ordinances be drawn up prior
to the granting of a Charter of self-government, so that the United
States Government may grant specific power to the community to deal
with such matters through its own courts and through its own police.

### (b). Cooperative marketing and purchasing.

One of the functions which may be assigned to the community is
that of purchasing machinery and supplies for the use of the members
of the community. It may also sell the products of the community,
insofar as such sale is not managed by voluntary cooperative
associations. If such associations continue as independent organizations,
they will be subject to the rules and regulations of the community as a whole.

### (c). Contributions to Community projects.

It is not expected that the Federal Government will cut down the
Federal funds available for the reservations. On the contrary, to
the extent that the Indians of the reservations take over the functions
now performed by paid white employees, the money now paid to such
employees will be increasingly available to the Indian Community. It

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may still be necessary, however, for the Indian Community to require
all its members to take part in community labor (e.g. irrigation,
fencing, construction of community houses), and to contribute toward
the salaries of community officials, if it is decided such officials
should receive a salary. It may be noted that among the Pueblo
Indians many of the officials work without salary, receiving only
traveling expenses from community funds. At one of the Pueblo Com-
munities the Governor receives an annual salary of $50, and other
officials receive an annual salary of $35.

(d). Charity.

Every community endowed with self-government must accept the
responsibility of caring for its needy and providing for public
improvements. So long as the economic necessity continues, the
Federal Government will, in all probability, continue to provide
rations for indigent old Indians. But if the industrial program
of the administration succeeds in bringing greater prosperity to
the Indians, the Community must be prepared to assume gradually
the obligation of providing for charity, and the responsibility of
deciding what charity is necessary and how the need for charity
may be avoided by a wise system of land distribution and inheritance.

3. TENURE OF LAND.

It is an essential element of the Administration's program
for the protection and encouragement of Indian use of Indian lands
that the Indian Community should be given the power to plan and
regulate the use of land so as to procure the greatest benefits
for the Community.

As a possible solution for the evils of the heirship and like
problems caused by the allotment system, it is suggested that the
underlying principle of the modern corporation be applied to Indian
communities. In brief, it is suggested that instead of retaining
their interest in particular pieces of land the Indians transfer
control over their lands to an incorporated Indian Community and
receive in exchange a proportionate interest in the entire land-
holdings of the community. Such a system would permit the
establishment of proper economic timber units, grazing units and
farm tracts as well as home and garden areas.

Within these units each member of the Indian Community would
be entitled to use a certain amount of the Indian land for farming
and grazing. In addition, each member of the Indian Community would

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be entitled to a regular dividend out of the income which the community receives from grazing fees, leases of surplus lands, sales of timber, satisfaction of tribal claims, and other sources of community income. Finally, each member of the proposed municipal corporation would have the right to receive from the community a plot of land for home, garden, corral, etc.

These rights would terminate only at death. The need for a general system of inheritance would be ended since each child would be entitled to a dividend from the community (perhaps one-fourth of the adult dividend for children under 18) and would also be entitled to use community land when he was capable of working it.

Inheritance would, however, be continued to the extent of allowing a man to assign to his widow or children those improvements which he has made upon the land assigned to him. Where such improvements are inseparably connected with the land (for instance, houses or barns), inheritance of such land as well as of improvements might be recognized. If such right is recognized, the community should, wherever possible, require that such improvements be built in an area apart from grazing and farming units, in order to prevent the breaking up of these units. Continued subdivision of improved home and garden sites could be avoided if adjacent lands were reserved by the community for future assignment to young people who wish to build homes of their own.

If it be found impracticable to establish an immediate equality in the holding of community assets it may be possible to preserve the present disproportionate holdings by granting disproportionate dividends in the Community income and right to use the land.

Experience in many reservations, however, demonstrates the necessity for establishing an ultimate limitation on the rights of any one individual, in order to grant every member of the Community some economic opportunity.

In working out the details of a system of land tenure suitable to a given reservation, the basic objective must be to secure to each Indian born on the reservation the land he needs to earn a livelihood. The Indians cannot rely upon the Federal Government to continue forever to allot lands to landless Indians. The lands now subject to Indian ownership must be held in trust by the Indian community for its future children, and the use of this land must be controlled and assigned by the laws of the Indian community so as to secure the greatest benefit for all its members. Only where the Indian Community is using its available land to its greatest capacity, and where no Indian controls more land than he needs or is able to use, can the Indian community appeal to the Federal Government for gifts of new lands.

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## 4. CONTROL OF FUNDS.

The Indian Community, where it is equipped to deal efficiently and wisely with financial matters, should be given substantial control over all expenditure of community assets. This would include, for example, moneys recovered by judgment of the Court of Claims, existing tribal funds, and future profits from community enterprises. Some provision may be made, however, to prevent loss of the capital resources of the community. The power to expend community assets in excess of a certain sum (fixed for each community on the basis of its resources and standard of living), might be limited either by requiring that such assets be used for capital expenditures and permanent improvements or by retaining in the Indian Office some power of veto over the improvident disposition of community funds.

Ultimately, it is hoped that some measure of control over the expenditure and administration of Federal appropriations may be secured for the Indian Community, when it has shown its capacity to administer its own funds efficiently, and wisely. For the present, the Indians should be encouraged to examine the budget of Federal expenditures made on their behalf, and to make detailed recommendations as to future expenditures to the Indian Office through the Superintendents. The pending "alternative budget", if adopted by Congress; will greatly assist the intelligent participation by Indians in their own affairs, as well as giving to Congress itself an effective control over Indian service expenditures.

## 5. CONTROL OF EMPLOYEES.

The Administration is desirous of giving to those Indian Communities which demonstrate their capacity for political organization the largest practicable measure of control over Federal employees, in the hope that ultimately the Indian Bureau may serve the Indians in an advisory capacity, on a purely voluntary basis, as, for instance, the Department of Agriculture serves the American farmer. Where the Government withholds from the tribes, for the time being, any measure of control over Indian affairs, officials charged with the exercise of such control should nevertheless consider themselves, and be considered by the Indians, as responsible to the Indian communities. The Indian Community might well require of all Federal employees now assigned to its service regular reports at council meetings concerning the plans and activities of such employees. Furthermore, some power of recall over such employees should be given, either to the community council or to the members of the community at large. Such power should, however, be limited so as to assure Federal employees a full and fair opportunity to demonstrate the worth of their policies over a stated period of time, perhaps two years, before being subject to recall. It might further be provided that recall should be effected only by a two thirds or three fourths vote. It would be understood, of course, that employees recalled

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from one reservation could be transferred to other locations whenever they could be so transferred without impairing the standards of the Indian Service.

## 6. JURISDICTION OF INDIAN COMMUNITY.

It is the Intent of the Administration that a charter of self-government should be granted to each Indian community which is prepared to accept the elementary tasks and responsibilities of self-government. Such charter would specify the powers given to the Indian community and the duties and the responsibilities which the government of the Indian community agrees to assume. Among other things, the charter would provide that the governing officials of the Indian community must not inflict excessive or unreasonable punishments, must not divert or squander the assets of the community, and must abide by a just and reasonable system of land tenure which the members of the community would adopt before the charter was granted. The officers of the Indian community will be responsible to the Federal Government and to the members of the community for carrying out the duties laid upon them by the charter.

In so far as possible it is desired to free the community from supervision wherever the serious danger of abuse of power may be avoided. The grant of self-government must be considered with relation to two problems: (1) The internal affairs of the Indian community; and (2) the relation of the Indian community to the outside white world.

In so far as possible the Indian community should be given complete supervision over its internal affairs. Thus, for example, the Indian community might be given the power to administer its own system of land tenure. Furthermore, it might in addition be given the power to define typical misdemeanors by ordinance, the enforcement of which would be entrusted to the judicial and police officers of the Indian community. The danger of serious abuse can be removed by charter provision restricting the kinds of offenses which the Indian community may define, and limiting the fines and penalties. More serious offenses would remain subject to those Federal criminal laws which now apply to reservation Indians, except in so far as these laws might be removed or modified by Congress. The Indian community might decide to adopt for itself certain State laws such as those governing contracts, marriage, game preservation, road management, etc.

As has already been noted, certain restrictions probably would be imposed in the charter upon the power of the community over its internal affairs. Several methods of enforcing these restrictions are possible. It might be provided that a special Court of Indian Affairs, its judges appointed by the President or the Secretary of

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the Interior, should be empowered to enforce the provisions of the charter and constitution of every Indian community, and to require the officers of the Indian community to abide by the fundamental provisions of such constitution and charter. As an alternative, a power of veto over acts of the Indian community violating its charter or constitution might be retained within the existing Indian bureau.

The problem of the relations between whites and Indians remains to be considered. This problem includes the relations between whites and Indians off the reservation as well as on. The power to regulate such relations could be reserved by Congress, could be delegated to the Secretary of the Interior or could indeed, in some measure, be delegated to the Indian community. The judicial enforcement of such rules and regulations might be entrusted by Congress either to the existing Federal or State courts or to the Indian community courts. It has also been suggested that the function of adjusting such relations between whites and Indians might be granted to the special Federal Court of Indians Affairs already described, which would have authority over whites as well as Indians.

Finally the Indian community might find it desirable to avail itself of the various services of the State, such as educational and health facilities. In the event that such services should be provided by the State rather than the Federal Government or the Indian community, payment might be made to the State by Federal appropriation.

The whole problem of defining the powers and duties of the Indian community in its relations with its members and with outsiders is one to which the Indians are invited to give their most serious attention, and the Administration will value considered expression of the diverse needs and desires of the various Indian reservations. Such expressions undoubtedly would be given weight by the committees.

This study is undertaken for the purpose of determining what legislation is necessary to effect the largest benefits in policy and administrative methods. It is desired, therefore, that the meetings, conventions, or councils of the Indians to discuss this program be held in the *very near future*, and that reports be prepared and forwarded to the Office *not later than February 15, 1934*.

Sincerely yours,

JOHN COLLIER,

Commissioner.

APPENDIX

Administration Promises

I

"Certainly the continuance of autocratic rule, by a Federal de-
partment, over the lives of more than 800,000 citizens of this
Nation is incompatible with American ideals of liberty. It also is
destructive of the character and self-respect of a great race."
(Franklin D. Roosevelt to Senator Wheeler, April 22, 1934).

II

* * * * Suppose - I am just giving examples - suppose the Choctaw
Tribe desired to become a chartered organization. Then, if it wanted
to, the Tribe could take over its coal deposits, could form a company
to operate their own mines and could borrow money from the Government
to provide for the operating of the land - of their own coal mines.
That is an example of what a chartered community could do if it
wanted to, but it would not have to.

"Now, something else entirely different. Just an example of
what a chartered organization could do. Suppose Indians have land
which they are now renting out to white cattle men - a great many
Indians in the west have this kind of land and they do not get very
much rental, and the rent they do get is used to support the agency.
A chartered group of Indians could organize and obtain from the Gov-
ernment the money necessary to buy their own cattle and put them on
their own lands, then the chartered organization could run the cattle
as cattle ranches and keep all the earnings themselves. The chartered
group would have the spending of the money and the Government could
not take it for agency expenses.

* * * * And this organization, which the Indians might form, would
also have the power to call the Indian Bureau before it on any matter
and to demand an accounting from the Indian Bureau. It would pass on
all moneys to be spent by the Government for its benefit and would
control its own Indian moneys. The Indian Bureau would no longer
dominate them. That is my idea of the situation that would be set
up under self government plan of this Bill."

(Commissioner John Collier to conference for the Indians of the
Five Civilized Tribes at Muskogee, Oklahoma, March 22, 1934.)

## III

""" They can't be expected to build up their life as long as any Commissioner of Indian Affairs can come in and knock it down, and in the past Secretaries of the Interior and Commissioners have spent a good deal of their time knocking down things that the Indians have been trying to build up. Secretary Lees and I are not doing that, but we are only temporary. Pretty soon we won't be here any more, and we want before we get out of office, to procure safety for the Indians in this matter of their self-government, as well as the matter of their lands. That is why we are promoting this self-government Bill.

"How, what do we mean by self-government? What are we talking about? It may mean a great many different things. Self-government may mean nothing but this; that the pueblo can decide about punishments for fist-fights or wife beating, etc. It can have its own court to keep peace. It might mean no more than that. But self-government might mean a great deal more than that. Suppose a pueblo borrows $100,000 for a loan fund. I mean, suppose the pueblo gets a gift from the Government of $100,000 to be used as a loan fund, and then the pueblo authorities begin to administer that $100,000 so as to make it do good, so as to be fair to everybody and so on not to lose the money but get it back and loan it again. That is self-government too.""

(Commissioner John Collier to All-Pueblo Council, Santo Domingo Pueblo, March 15, 1934.)

## IV

""" When an Indian tribe gets ready for self-government, the Secretary of the Interior will send out expert advisors who will help you to frame the kind of a charter that you would like to have with the powers that you feel ready to undertake.

"You might, for example, want to undertake the ordinary powers of a county, or of a village, such as appointing your police officers, appointing Indian judges, issuing your local laws and ordinances and enforcing those laws and ordinances. In that case a charter

would be worked out which would define those kinds of powers. Or
you might wish to have another kind of power, for instance the power
of going into business like a white man's corporation. You might,
for example, wish to go into the saw mill and lumbering business,
you might wish to develop the cattle business among the individual
members of your tribe, and so the charter would give you powers to
carry on business as a legal group just as the white man's corpora-
tion is given power to do business."

(Mr. Ward Shepard, to Southern Arizona Indian Conference, March 15,
1934.)

V

"I should like to explain the provision of the first part of the legislation. The first part of this bill deals with self-government. I have been told by some interpreters that some of the Indian languages do not have a word for 'self-government'. So I want to explain for the benefit of the old-timers what self-government means. For one thing, self-government means that the various rules and regulations that govern your property and affairs will not be made in Washington by the Bureau of Indian Affairs and will be made by yourself. In the second place, self-government means that you will have power to choose all your own officials instead of having them chosen for you in Washington. In the third place self-government means that you will have control over all of your own funds instead of having all the control in Washington. To sum it all up, the idea of self-government means that the Indian Bureau is to become a purely advisory bureau to help the Indians instead of to rule them.

"In the second place, a community may be given power in its charter to do the ordinary things that a business corporation does. For instance, the Indian community may under its charter have power to manage its own grazing and other matters which are regulated by the Office of Indian Affairs**"

(Felix S. Cohen, Northwest Indian Congress, March 8, 1934.)

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## VII

"A charter of incorporation may convey to any tribe the right to engage in business, to obtain loans from the Indian Loan Fund authorized by Section 10 of this Act, to acquire property, to issue certificates of corporate interest to the members of the corporation who transfer land to the corporation, and to do all other incidental things necessary to the conduct of corporate business. Among these incidental powers may be mentioned the power to elect or appoint officers and employees of the corporation, to promulgate and amend by-laws, to pay out dividends, etc. No Indian corporation, however, may sell or mortgage any land at all within the reservation nor may it lease such land for a period exceeding ten years.

"Any tribe which desires a corporate charter may request the assistance of officials of the Interior Department in preparing such a charter, or may, if it so chooses, consult private attorneys or advisors in the preparation of such a charter."

(Commissioner John Collier, Analysis and Explanation of the Wheeler-Howard Act, August 1954.)

## VII

"The powers of government now exercised over the Indian population through the Office of Indian Affairs shall be gradually transferred to organized Indian communities, subject only to such necessary restrictions as may be required to ensure the continuance of health, educational and welfare services now furnished by the Federal Government; and to protect the rights of minorities within the community until such time as the Indian community shows itself capable of administering its own government.

"Unanimously adopted.

"The Secretary of the Interior should have the power and the duty to recognize and establish Indian communities and endow them with any or all of the powers of existing communities of like size and purpose; provided that the charter of such communities shall contain prohibitions on alienation and dissipation of capital assets of the community; provided further that the charter shall contain some restrictions upon the

4

exercise of business discretion by the Indians in transactions involving some greater than fixed in the charter; * * * *

(Resolutions of Conference on Indian Legislation, Commerce Club, Washington, D. C., January 7, 1934.)

VIII

"The Indian Community, where it is equipped to deal efficiently and wisely with financial matters, should be given substantial control over all expenditure of community assets. This would include, for example, moneys recovered by judgment of the Court of Claims, existing tribal funds, and future profits from community enterprises. Some provision may be made, however, to prevent loss of the capital resources of the community. The power to expend community assets in excess of a certain sum (fixed for each community on the basis of its resources and standard of living), might be limited either by requiring that such assets be used for capital expenditures and permanent improvements or by retaining in the Indian Office some power of veto over the improvident disposition of community funds."

(Commissioner John Collier in office letter to Superintendents, Tribal Councils and Individual Indians, January 20, 1934.)

83145

THE WHITE HOUSE
WASHINGTON, D. C.

(Copy)

(Copy)

March 13, 1934.

My dear Mr. Howard:

My interest has been attracted to your bill, H. R. 7902, because of the virile American principles on which it is based. Opportunities for self determination for the Indians in handling their property by providing modern corporate management, participation in local government, a more liberal educational system through day schools and advanced health measures are provided in the bill.

Adequate provision is made for his training in the management and protection of his property, and the conservation of his health during the period that must intervene before the Indian may be intrusted with the complete management of his own affairs. In offering the Indian these natural rights of man we will more nearly discharge the Federal responsibility for his welfare than through compulsory guardianship that has destroyed initiative and the liberty to develop his own culture.

(COPY)

Hon. Edgar Howard,
Chairman, House Committee on Indian Affairs.

83145

AFTERNOON SESSION

2:00 P.M.

Mr. Teehee: We will now resume the meeting where we left off at the
noon hour.

Mr. Collier: I am now going to describe the Bill to you. Before doing
that though, I want to get your minds once more on the fact of responsi-
bility of a great many of your tribesmen. The number of members of the
Five Civilized Tribes, as you know, who have no land is about 72,000.

Right here I believe I should stop and have Interpreters called to
the stand to interpret for those of you out there who do not speak the
English language.

Jos. W. Hayes interpreted for the Choctaw and Chickasaw
Indians;

Richard Glory interpreted for the Cherokee Indians;

Wesley Barnett (of FCT Office) interpreted for the
Creeks and Seminoles.

Before discussing the Bill I want to bring to your mind that a great
many of the members of the Five Civilized Tribes have lost all their
lands and are very poor.

It is the policy of this administration that the Federal Government
owes a duty to the poor and landless Indian just as much as to the
Indian who still has his land.

We do not say that every Indian ought to live on the land and farm
it and use it, but we do say that if he wants to live on the land and
use it, it is the duty of the Federal Government to supply him with the
land and with the necessary money to develop the land.

This does not mean that those who still have some land are going to
be asked or compelled to give their land to other Indians or to divide
with other Indians. The Government does not intend to do that. It does
not intend to take away land from those who have it and give it to those
who have lost it. The Government could not do that if it wanted to,
that would be against the Constitution of the United States and any law
passed of that kind would be thrown out by the Courts.

So, this Wheeler-Howard Bill intends first to help those Indians
who have still got land and to help them to keep the land, and second to
supply new land for those Indians who have lost their land.

But, before the Government will supply millions of dollars in getting
new land for the landless Indians, the Government must change the

15

purely voluntary. That area might contain allotted land owned by
Indians living somewhere else. I think it is clear that in the actual
3/5 vote necessary to adopt a charter, as the bill is now drawn, that
vote would only be of those resident in the reservation area. But for
eastern Oklahoma, it would almost always be the formation of a new
colony on newly bought land and there the Secretary of the Interior
would promulgate a new charter.

Question. Those Indian allotments which are restricted by the pre-
sent roll do not volunteer to join the charter community, what would
become of them?

Answer. If they did not want to turn their land in, they would not
have to. It would be up to them.

Question. I am under the impression under this bill that is is the
intention to segregate the Five Civilized Tribes, or is it true that the
Five Tribes will be segregated to themselves?

Answer. As you know, each tribe has its special rights, claims and
all that. When we talk of the Five Civilized Tribes we are talking about
the Chickasaws, Choctaws, Cherokees, Seminoles and Creeks; each is separate.
It is simply that they are covered by other legislation as a group. This
bill does not segregate them. As you know, there is another bill separate
from this which tries to correct some evils under which the Five Civilized
Tribes are suffering by themselves. That is not in this bill.

Question. Will Freedmen be eligible to membership in any form or
character in the establishment of the communities and will they be given an
equal right in such community?

Answer. I understand that Freedmen are not Indians. Is that correct?
This bill is concerned only with enrolled Indians who would have right
under existing law. After the community is once formed, it is the judge
of any new members that might come in.

Question. Does not the bill provide that the proceeds from any suit
now pending, wherein any of the Five Civilized Tribes are plaintiffs, be
distributed as common property to members of the community, instead of some
being paid to individual claimants?

Answer. The disposal of the proceeds from a suit now pending - this
is now in the hands of Congress. What this bill does is to place that
decision with the Indians. No longer with Congress. The proceeds is a
tribal fund and would be spent according to the wishes of the tribe. If
the whole tribe were organized into a community, it would control that
fund. The Indians would decide on the disposal of the judgment.

Question. In a checkerboarded community as mentioned, who is con-
sidered undesirable that makes it necessary to be segregated, the Indian
or White, and in your opinion is it necessary to segregate the Indian
from the White because one race may contaminate the other?

Answer. I think the term segregation has been misunderstood. When

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Question. If the Indians come together as a community, the question arises relative thereto, will the land be bought and Indians placed either here or elsewhere?

Answer. I expect there is lots of good land in Oklahoma. You can always buy land and of course, the land will be bought where Indians want to live. If an Indian tribe wanted to buy land in some other state, that could be done. It would be up to the Indians.

Question. This is a question brought by Mr. Sam Anderson, Creek Secretary: "When the Creek area is settled, the government might put other Indians beside the Creeks."

Answer. I do not know the dimensions of the area and I would not say that the government would not put a colony for Cherokees on land which was once occupied by Creeks. Suppose Creeks and Cherokees wanted to get together, there is nothing to prevent that. That is up to the Indians themselves.

Question. It is understood that if the Cherokees would agree to organize themselves and then should have a form of government of their own, could they have a Principal Chief and other officers of their own?

Answer. Of course, the Cherokees are now scattered over the country and could not organize a political government at present. They are just part in the life of the state. It can do nothing as it is now scattered so. Under this bill it could take out a charter which would give it control over any moneys that might arise. It could organize a community and thereby get the power to place its young people in government jobs and be given a voice in all expenditures of government money for Cherokees; and demand a removal of undesirable white influence. But it could not organize a terrotorial political government because it is scattered. If a colony were formed made of Cherokees and occupying 250,000 acres, that community could organize a municipal government under this bill.

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EVENING SESSION

MR. TEEHEE:

The meeting will now come to order. We will resume questions -
Let me just say I notice that numerous questions are being repeated.
If you have sent up questions, and later more, that have not been
answered in some other question, and a number of questions that have
no relation to the bill under consideration, I think it is the desire
of the Commissioner, for what time he has, to give attention to the
bill under consideration. So if you have any questions outside of the
issue which have relation to some other question, it is suggested that
you address a letter to the Department at Washington, or the Superin-
tendent here at Muskogee. But at this time direct your questions to
the bill under consideration. We will resume here where we left off.

MR. COLLIER:

Before I start on questions, I want to say that if we do not get
finished to your entire satisfaction tonight, and if any of you are re-
maining over tomorrow, we will be glad to go forward tomorrow morning
with you. We could even do this, we could break the meeting into three
parts - one meeting with the Choctaws and Chickasaws - another with the
Cherokees - and another with the Creeks and Seminoles. I would take one
of the meetings - Mr. Siegel one - and Mr. Woehlke another, and then we
would be able to explain some things in the bill more exactly than I
may be able to do tonight. Let us know what you want to do about that
later in the evening.

I call your attention to the second page of the explanation of the
Wheeler-Howard Bill prepared by Mr. Harper, Secretary of the American
Indian Defense Association. It is brief and clear and absolutely ac-
curate. Now we will go on with the questions.

One signed by James Culberson of Durant.

Question. Should a person accept an allotment in one of these co-
operative communities and remain under its rules and regulations, would
it not disfranchise him from participation in the State in which he might
live?

Answer. No. An Indian in one of these communities does not lose
his franchise any more than a white man living in Muskogee.

Question. Would these Indians living in the organized community be
subject to compulsory war service, either at home or abroad?

Answer. Indians are full citizens of the United States since 1924.

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and acquired land - bought it. They formed a corporation under the laws of North Carolina to hold that land in common as a community. For a good many years they paid taxes on it, but about ten years ago they transferred title to the United States, and did not alter ownership at all in practical effect, but transferred title to the Government and then waged a successful battle against being allotted. I think they are the one tribe that has a guarantee in law against being allotted and who are holding land in common. They do not pay taxes. The North Carolina Court has taken the position that the land now held belongs to the Government and is not taxable. In Arizona and New Mexico the Javajos have been buying land for several years. They are acquiring purchases off the tax rolls, which become tax exempt, so that while the matter may be a moot one, so far as the Supreme Court is concerned, actually Indian land is being taken off the tax rolls by this method right along, successfully.

Question. Will babies born after 1907 be privileged to share in this land purchased for these colonies?

Answer. Surely if they are members of the tribe.

Question. Would Indians participating in a new colony have the right to designate the land to be acquired for them?

Answer. Of course, up to a certain point. The final decision on what lands to buy would have to be left with the Government. It would be agreed upon by the Indians and the Secretary of the Interior.

Question. If a colony is established within the Creek Nation, with the money supplied by this Bill, and land is bought, will the Creek Nation be liable to the Government for the amount expended in the acquisition of such land? Will the Creek Nation have to reimburse the Government in the future, if there are funds available?

Answer. This land purchase fund is a straight gratuity appropriation, not reimbursable and not a loan. But that does not quite answer your question. It compels me to talk a little about the suits in the Court of Claims and that will compel me to go outside the Bill. This Bill does not deal with Court of Claims suits. As you know, when an Indian Tribe goes to the Court of Claims, it sets up its claims and the Government sets up counter-claims. The Government pleads what they call off-sets and the effort of the Government is always to plead large off-sets - that is, of money spent allegedly for benefit of the tribe in all the years gone by, to be deducted from the judgment. Last year some Indians of Montana got a $3,000,000.00 judgment and the Government got $4,000,000.00 set-off. So the Indians woke up one morning one million dollars in debt as the result of winning a suit against the Government. That is the way it is worked now. We are hoping to meet that situation

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We also indorse the resolutions presented by the Nighthawk Kee-Too-Wah Society.

Signed at Tahlequah, Oklahoma, this 21st day of March, 1934.

James W. Duncan, Sec'y of the Society and member of the Executive Committee.

Jim Rickey

James Cochran

Tom Greece
Executive Committee, Keetoowah Society, Inc.

JOSEPH BRUNER:

Raises question of order as to time spent on resolution of Kee-too-wah who are only clan of a tribe and not representative of the body.

MR. SELPLE:

There will be no action taken - the resolutions are only to be read.
What is your further pleasure.

MR. BRUNER:

I move that we adjourn.

NED BLACKFOX (through interpreter Richard Glory) presented copies of various old treaties entered into by and between the United States and various Indian Tribes and asked consideration of their merit in connection with the bill.

MR. COLLIER:

What the speakers have just said is not altogether aside from the mark. The United States, in these treaties, which he refers to, made undertakings and broke them. You have suits pending that are seeking damages on account of those broken treaties but money payment by itself cannot restore what was taken away from you when those treaties were broken, because the treaties pledged you freedom and self-determination. The right of organization of home rule. When those rights were taken away from you, there was no way to restore them except by new legislation. I think it is quite true to say that the Wheeler-Howard Bill does recreate the heart of the old treaties. It is the way in which lands can be restored to you which were wrongfully taken from you. It is the way in which your

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THE SUPREME ORGANIZATION OF THE UNRESTRICTED INDIANS

OF THE MUSKOGEE CREEK NATION

-- 1932 --

Accepted by Petition to the Commissioner of the Five Civilized Tribes. Approved
and Registered With Commissioner of Affairs, Washington, D. C.

1110 East Randolph

OKMULGEE, OKLAHOMA

R E S O L U T I O N .

O F THE UNRESTRICTED INDIAN.

O R G A N I Z A T I O N .

TO ALL TO WHOM THESE PRESENT SHALL COME GREETING:

WHERAS, THE UNRESTRICTED INDIAN ORGANIZATION OF THE MUSKOGEE CREEK
NATION:

Has assembled in The City of Beggs, County of Okmulgee, State of Oklahoma.
This the 19, day of March, 1934, for the purpose of the discushion
of the WHEER-HOWARD INDIAN RIGHTS BILL (S. 2755; H. R. 7902) Now pend-
ing in Congress. And WHERAS, The National Commissioner of Indians Affairs,
Mr. John C. Collier, will be in the State of Oklahoma, between the dates
of March, the 19, and 22, 1934, to Elect Deligates to confer with him on
said bill.

WHERAS, The said Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, or
its lawfull successor, has presented to Congress, By Mr. Howard, on
February 12, 1934, and refered to the committee on Indian Affairs, the
above mention bill.

NOW THEREFORE, We the undersigned, Officers of The Unrestricted
Indian Organization, or the Muskogee Creek Nation, with its duley
Elected Deligates, to confer with The Honorable National Commissioner of
Indian Affairs, Mr. John C. Collier, by Resolution. Be it in acted that
this Resolution, be adopted and approved, and be come a part of the records
local Convention of the Creek Tribal of Indians now assembled, of the
Muskogee Creek Nation, on the 22, day of March, 1934, and the said resolu-
tion, be given to the Honorable John C. Collier the National Commissioner
of Indian Affairs.

BE IT FUTHER RESOLVED, that the Repperventives of the Unrestricted
Indian Organization, of the Muskogee Creek Nation, do now regret, of

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MR. W.M. O. ADAMS of BARTLESVILLE:

Question. I want to request permission to ask a few questions. I want to ask the Commissioner if the Wheeler-Howard Bill is coming up before the present session of Congress.

Answer. It is already before this session.

Question. Do you think it will be voted on?

Answer. That, I cannot say. Nobody can say. Nobody can tell when Congress will adjourn.

Question. Regarding the so-called Indian claims bill. Is that coming before them.

Answer. No, we may be able to get it introduced but there is no chance of counting on it at this session.

Question. Of course you know how the Cherokees are scattered in Washington County. We have perhaps 1500 Cherokees including the Delawares and Shawnees and you said a few minutes ago that, should this bill pass, that Indians scattered over the district would be branches of so-called colonies. According, to your bill I believe we could form an organization. I hope we could if we could get a charter. We want to stay right there.

MR. COLLIER: I don't mean that every Cherokee would have to be organized under one organization but in many cases that is the way it would be done. Take a big tribe scattered over a large area - say 25000 square miles in the Navajo country, organized into sub-divisions under their one charter. The same thing could be done in Oklahoma by any of the Five Civilized Tribes but there is no cut and dried way of doing this. The only thing to be sure about is that whatever organization be adopted, equity in tribal property must remain undisturbed. They could organize a group of the Cherokees at any time if they wanted to. They have no organization at present.

Question. Could they join with another group if they wished.

Answer. That is entirely up to the Indians.

MR. BEN CARPENTER (Shawnee) asks to be recognized.

I represent a little tribe of Indians - Shawnees, located in Craig County in the Cherokee Nation. We do not know that we need to organize. We get along and we are satisfied just like we are - we are satisfied now. Satisfied with the Government in every way. We fought for peace and we are

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tickled with just what we have got and we are thankful that the Commissioner got to come down here and talk to us Indians. That's all we ask. A little later on we might come in with them. Thank you very much.

MR. SEMPLE: The Chair will state that is the first tribe that I ever knew that is entirely satisfied. The Chair is authorized to state that the Commissioner's staff, particularly his legal staff, will be here in the Indian office tomorrow and can be seen by any people interested or any tribe who wants to come and see the Commissioner's legal staff and that they may be found on the third floor of the Federal Building in the Superintendent's office. They will be there for awhile during the morning.

MR. COLBERT: Renewal of motion for adoption and approval of the Wheeler-Howard Bill.

CHAIR is inclined to believe the motion is not appropriate at this time inasmuch as there are many of the tribes who desire to deliberate further and the Commissioner would really like those who have constructive suggestions to be given time to make them so they will be heard and considered, so the Chair is inclined to think that we should not at this time either approve or disapprove the bill in question.

MR. BRUNER: Motion to adjourn.

CHAIR: The chair will state to those who desire to meet the Commissioner or the Commissioner's staff, you can find him by calling at the Indian office tomorrow. He will be gone by noon and those who want to see him will bring any suggestions and present them before noon tomorrow.

MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT SECONDED. Meeting adjourned.

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R E S O L U T I O N .

RESOLVED BY THE INDIAN WOMEN'S CLUB
OF
TULSA, OKLAHOMA.

RESOLVED: That some provision be made for a Home for Aged
Indians who need a home and comforts in their declining years.

Respectfully submitted,

Mrs. Nan Lowery Hitchens
President

Mrs. Emily Wade Breahears
Secretary

LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE.

Mrs. S. R. Lewis, Chair

Lilah D. Lindsey

Lena F. Barnard

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Question. If a group organizes and incorporates itself, holding their land in different states, will that group be tax free?

Answer. Yes, the land that is tax free now would be kept tax free. The bill contemplates that when a community is formed it is for a definite reason, but not necessarily just to escape taxes.

Question. My mother, who received an allotment, is on the roll and I am not. If she turned her property over to the community, would I ever inherit any of that?

Answer. You would inherit whatever she wanted you to have. Nothing can be done that will destroy inherited rights. Property must descend. The thing that descends might not be that particular property, but an equal value, regardless of whether or not you are in the community.

Question. With reference to the Choctaw and Chickasaw communities, where there are two projects under the C.W.A., is it the purpose to continue those under this bill?

Answer. They could come under the bill. They are being done now because they are needed.

Question. Is it the purpose of the Department to recommend payment to the tribes as a whole for the land taken for this community?

Answer. I had not thought of it. This particular thing grew out of an idle land proposition.

Question. How are you to limit rights?

Answer. Where a colony like that was established on tribal land, the preference would be given to those not having any land, those born since allotment. The bill provides for unused land, new land, the preference would always be given to the Indian who has been out of luck until now. As to whether or not the Government would pay the tribe the money, I do not know. I do not see why the Government would do that.

Question. How many acres in these projects?

Answer. About 3,000 in one; about 2,700 in the other.

Question. Would it be admissible to offer for us as a preamble the old Cherokee Law as abrogated at Statehood, to be included in our operative Cherokee community.

Answer. I see no reason why those laws could not be considered; the charter would be formed as a matter of agreement between the Secretary

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**ANTONIO MIRABAL (Taos):** Mr. Chairman, before we proceed, we from Taos have a little something to say. This is a great pleasure for us to have Mr. Collier here with us as Commissioner. We thank the President, Mr. Roosevelt and Mr. Harold Ickes, Secretary of the Interior, for their appointment of Mr. Collier as Indian Commissioner, and also we thank all the members of the Senate and also Congress for their approval. I thank you for your attention.

**SOTERO ORTIZ (Chairman):** Friends and gentlemen, this meeting has been called by the Chairman of the All-Pueblo Council of New Mexico in learning that our Commissioner, Mr. John Collier, was coming out West. You know that Mr. Collier is one of our best friends of the Indians. I don't say that because he is here with us, but it is true that he is a true friend of the Indians. He fought for our rights during all the past years, and our other officers of the Government, such as our Indian agents. We have with us the Northern Indian Agent, Mr. C. E. Faris, and Mr. Towers of the Southern Pueblos, and also we have with us one of the important lawyers who has fought for us during all the past years, together with our present Commissioner and ourselves, who is Judge R. H. Hanna. Then also we have our Attorney, Mr. Cochrane, who is appointed by the Government. He has done all he could do. Then besides them we have other friends, Mr. Charles Elkus from California, President of the American Indian Defense Association of Northern California, and now here the Commissioner is with us, and this meeting has been called for the purpose of discussing important matters. Each pueblo delegation must speak for themselves. Also we wish that our friends who are present, if there is anything they have to say they are welcome to say it. Now, before we proceed or go any further with our task, if you think it is right we better postpone for an hour for lunch.

**DIEGO ABEITA (Isleta):** I think we should object to that plan. We would like to hear from the Commissioner briefly, what he has to say to us, and greet him and recognize him as our Commissioner, and recognize the work that he has done. We would like to hear from him before we adjourn.

(Vote taken - unanimous that they would like to have new Commissioner speak.)

**MR. COLLIER:** My friends of the pueblos: I never expected to meet with you in the capacity of Indian Commissioner and I don't feel the least bit like a Commissioner of Indian Affairs. I am just here at your old meeting the same way as in all these years gone by, to talk with you and to help you in any little way I can. I am not going to keep you from your dinner but a few minutes now, but I think at this time you might be interested in remembering with me a little bit about the events of the last ten years and the change

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that has come to your own lives. Many of you who are here today
were in this same room almost ten years ago, and you will remember
that you met here to consider a great danger that was threatening
you. You will remember that the previous year, eleven years ago,
a Bill had been introduced called the Bursum Bill, introduced by
the Senator from this State, and promoted by the Secretary of the
Interior and by the lawyer whom the Government had employed to work
for you, Colonel Twitchell. That Bill had been defeated after a
great struggle, and then after that Bill had been defeated the
Senate had prepared another Bill called the Lenroot Bill, and the
Lenroot Bill, just like the Bursum Bill, took away your land titles
and didn't give you anything in return. You may remember at that
time, ten years ago, the whole force of the Government was organized
against you. Every Senator and Representative from the State of New
Mexico was working to take away your lands. The Secretary of the
Interior and the Indian Commissioner, they were working against you,
and there wasn't a single newspaper in the State that was taking
your side.

Now just come down ten years and look at the difference that
has come and that great change has come for one reason more than
any other reason. It has come because you Indians have continued
to stand together, to wage your battle together, because you kept
your eyes raised and saw a long way ahead. You have been patient
and yet you have been determined to win. The Pueblos, across all
these years, have stood more than any other Indian tribe as the
spokesmen for all the Indians of the country, and the battle that
you have waged has been the battle for all the Indians. You re-
sisted every effort by the Government to break down your own self-
government. The attempt of the Government to interfere with
Indian religion was concentrated here and you fought it off and
beat it. Then about six years ago the Government, the Interior
Department I mean, made a great effort to break down the freedom
of this All-Pueblo Council. They tried to make it a Council that
would be obedient to the Indian Bureau. You were not willing; you
refused and you defeated that effort. For years it was necessary
for you to wage your own legal battle because the Government did
not provide the lawyers to do necessary parts of your work.

The Pueblo Lands Board was formed and it did not do justice
to the Pueblos, but you kept up the battle to the very end. You
were able to do that through the help given by your lawyer friends,
Judge R. H. Hanna and others.

I just remind you of this history because it is so easy always
to take for granted the different things that have come and to for-
get that they were things that you bought with long, hard work.

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And now look at the way things are today. In the first place, about your lands. The legislation that you have been fighting for all these years has been passed by Congress with a unanimous vote. That legislation, taken with the earlier legislation of 1924, guarantees your lands for all time and it gives you a total of more than a million three hundred thousand dollars of compensation money. It gives you likewise the authority to say how your money should be used. It is up to you. This legislation contains many other things that you have been requesting and demanding.

Now, the legislation was passed two months ago through the help of all of your Representatives from New Mexico. It was known as the Bratton-Cutting-Chavez Bill. The Bill was introduced by these three Congressmen from New Mexico. They took the lead in fighting your battle for your rights. Every newspaper in the State supported your position. The Secretary of the Interior endorsed the Bill and worked for it. So did the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and the whole organization of the Indian Bureau. The President's representative, who is the Director of the Budget, endorsed the Bill. It is a great change in ten years, and the same kind of change has come for many other Indian tribes. I don't think it would have come unless the Pueblo tribes, from start to finish, had continued to work and to stand together; had exercised self-control; had been willing to think hard and to think straight.

Today we are in this position. You have in Congress very strong friends, in the Senate and in the House. You are not going to have any more trouble with Congress for years to come, and you have as Representatives from the State of New Mexico powerful friends. Senator Bratton has just retired from the Senate to go on the Bench as a Judge. He always was fair and generous toward the Pueblo Indians. If it had not been for Senator Bratton I do not think the Pueblo Lands Bill would have been law today. Your Congressman from here, Mr. Chavez, has been consistently helpful to the Pueblos, and Senator Cutting is today one of the two or three leading men in Congress and he is a friend of all the Indians. He is a man of very great power and he is willing to use that power in your behalf. In Congress your situation is very good. President Roosevelt is interested in the Indians; he cares about them, and he is never going to allow any wrong-doing toward Indians so long as he is President. Secretary Ickes is known to many of you. He is Secretary of the Interior. He has been interested in the Indians and has been coming out here to visit you for ten years. He has met with you in your All-Pueblo Council. In addition, he is a man of great strength and, if necessary, he will fight the world for Indian rights. I am sure that the reason I was asked to be Indian Commissioner was certainly not because I had any political strength, because I had none at all. I did not even know President Roosevelt. I had never met him, and I have not got the reputation of being an

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able business man. I am not. I have not got the reputation of
being a good executive. I am not. I was selected because President
Roosevelt, as well as Mr. Ickes, wanted to select someone whom the
Indians wanted, and they wanted to select somebody who had been out
on the fighting line and had been fighting for the Indians, and I
was put in office in order to keep on fighting, if necessary, for
the Indians. You can see as I draw the picture and can remember
how great the change has been.

May I say another thing now. I have reminded you how things
now are in this State of New Mexico. The members of Congress,
elected by your white neighbors, have been your best friends in the
last three or four years. The newspapers published here in this
State, read by the white people, have supported your cause. The
same thing has happened in many other States. And why is that? It
is because in the long run, in the really important matters, the
interests of the Indians and the interests of their white neighbors
are the same, so that the Indian work, the effort to improve the
condition of the Indians is no longer a bloody battle between the
Indians and their friends over here, and the rest of the world over
there. It has been that way for centuries but it is that way no
longer. The improvement of the Indians now, and from now on, is
more a progress in better organization, in better methods of work,
better understanding of the problems, and often it is a matter of
uniting with the whites toward something that everybody needs. For
example, to go away from the Pueblos to the great Navajo tribe for
a moment. Our representatives from the Indian Bureau, working with
representatives of the Navajo tribe, have now about completed an
arrangement with the white people by which the Navajo tribal
boundaries are going to be established by law in the way that the
Navajos want them established. A large increase of land is thereby
to be added on to the Navajo reservation and it looks like we are
going to have the help of the Senators from Arizona, Utah, Colorado,
and New Mexico in securing this law. There is just as much need
as there ever was for the Indians to continue to stand on their own
feet in an organized way, but there is a greater opportunity than
there ever was for the Indians to think out their own problems and
work out their own programs in cooperation with their white neigh-
bors, as well as with the Indian Bureau.

Now I want to refer to one other thing. At this time when your
friends unquestionably have control of the machinery of the Govern-
ment, there has come the great business depression and the Govern-
ment is being compelled to cut down its expenditures in a tremendous
way. For example, the Indian Bureau in the year ahead will have to
do its regular work on more than twelve million dollars less than
it had a year ago. That means that the Indian Bureau can not do
as much work as it did before. It is going to be more necessary
than in the past for the Indians themselves, in their individual

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and organized capacities to do their own work. On the other side, we are in a position to spend several million dollars in improving Indian lands, and we are trying to do that through using Indian labor entirely and to have the Indians themselves really manage the enterprise. We will say more about that after lunch because we want to tell you what we hope to be able to do in the pueblo country and we want to get your ideas about what we ought to do in the pueblo country.

And now I want to say a few more words and then I am going to stop. I know better than anyone can know that I haven't enough strength or ability to be Commissioner of Indian Affairs. I know that the job is one of the hardest jobs in the world, and that I have not got the kinds of strength that it needs. It is a work that requires a great deal of business judgment and business decision, and I am not a person who could even buy a horse successfully. It is a work that takes a great knowledge of law, and I am not a lawyer. It takes many other kinds of ability that I have not got. For myself I can only say this, that I expect to do my best for you, even if it is the last thing I do in my life, and that I will consider that I have failed entirely unless you Indians continue to feel that I have not failed, and when the Indians decide they want somebody else they have only to let me know and I am out of the picture. I say this because I mean it and intend to do it that way. I want to say something that I know better than I knew before I became Commissioner, and it is that the Commissioner of Indian Affairs has a great many very able helpers in the Government. The work at the headquarters in Washington is not done by one man. It is done by a team of more than twenty men and among them are men certainly as devoted to your interests as I am and with more ability along many lines than I have got, so that I think you may feel a good deal of confidence about the way the Indian Bureau is going to work, and I want to tell you how I will know myself, at the end of four or eight years, whether I have failed or succeeded. I will know it if I can look around and see all over the United States that the Indians have organized and have taken over the decisions about their own life and have gotten themselves into a position where they can make the policies of the Indian Bureau, and as organized Indians can take care of their own cases in court and can be the school boards that will run their own schools, and we can find in the Indian Service two or three times as many Indians as we have there now. If we can get the Government into such a relation with your life that the Government is not telling you what to do and is not exercising authority over you and is not making your decisions for you but is standing by to send you the kind of help that you ask for, whether that help is teachers, doctors, farmers or lawyers, so that the Government will be merely an agency rendering service to the Indians and not an agency exercising power over the Indians. Now you will see that this

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IA

thing which I hope for and which Secretary Ickes and President
Roosevelt hope for and which our Indian Bureau men and women in
the employ of the Government are anxious to bring about, that
it is a thing we can not do. Only the Indians can do it. Our
hope is that the Indians will take over the power and the
responsibilities which the Indian Bureau has tried to exercise
in the past, but that is entirely up to the Indians. If we gave
you the most perfect Indian Service; if we had an unlimited amount
of money to spend and spent it wisely for you; still we would fail
completely and we would hurt you and not help you unless you did
it yourselves, so that the answer to the Indian question and the
answer to the question of whether I am going to fail as Commissioner
and Secretary Ickes is going to fail as your guardian, is the
answer which you Indians yourselves must give. You must give it
through your own individual and group effort. I am not just speak-
ing for myself. I am telling you the policy and view of the
Administration. We intend to work that way as far as we have the
power and as far as you will let us. You are to take your fate
into your own hands, and we are going to help you work out the
fate that you select. I have only to add this, that of course
the United States Government is going to continue to stand by you.
There is no thought about stopping the Government's work for the
Indians, but we realize, all of us, that the only way for that
work to be successful or useful to the Indians is for the Indiana
to take the lead and bear the burden. Now I am going to stop
talking to you.

**FERNANDO BACA** (Jemez): Mr. Chairman, Interpreter, Commissioner
John Collier, fellow members of the Council, ladies and gentlemen:
A profound help of the people of the pueblo of Jemez which ap-
pointed me in the name of the Pueblo Governor, San Juanito Loretto,
and the Pueblo Council as spokesman to extend to Honorable Indian
Commissioner, John Collier, a sincere greeting and it is with
proud humility that we greet you and welcome you to this fair sun-
shine State, especially in the heart of the Pueblo Indian country.
We wish to show our appreciation to the endeavor and the improve-
ments of our social life and the preservation of our individual
human rights, the tribal customs, the happiness, the prosperity and
the very lives of the men, women, and children who are inhabitants
of the various pueblos in the southwest. It is your duty as Indian
Commissioner that lies in the direction based on the greatest
number for the greatest good. Our hope is that all of us be carried
to virtually a common struggle of this economic chaos.

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MEETING ADJOURNED FOR LUNCH

The meeting was called to order at 2 o'clock by Chairman, Sotero Ortiz.

SOTERO ORTIZ (Chairman): The first thing I want to let you know is about a message that one of our friends has sent and it has been handed to me by our Commissioner. Our friend, Edgar Howard, is the Chairman of the House Committee on Indian Affairs. (Letter read)

"June 29, 1933.

To the Council of all the New Mexico Pueblos, through the Chairman, Sotero Ortiz.

My dear Mr. Chairman:

I am greatly disappointed this morning by a positive duty which will hold me here in Washington and prohibit my accompanying Commissioner Collier to the great meeting which your various pueblos are soon to hold. I have met many of your people during my long services as member of Congress and for the past year as Chairman of the House Committee on Indian Affairs. I had earnestly hoped for the privilege of personally meeting with them in their home land, but since that privilege is denied me I take the liberty of carrying a message of good cheer through you to all of the pueblos.

I feel that under the administration of our new Secretary of the Interior and Commissioner Collier the welfare of all American Indians will be their first consideration, and I want you to know that in my capacity as Chairman I shall regard it as a great privilege to be able to do my full duty apart in aiding the Secretary of the Interior and Commissioner Collier in carrying out their entire program with reference to Indian legislation, all of which at all times will be pointed in the one direction of working for the welfare of the Indians.

Friends, you hear this letter. He is one of our friends who is working for the benefit of all Indians.

(Discussion among Indians about Interpreter for Santo Domingo Indians. Letter re-read and interpreted to Santo Domingos by Augustine Aguilar.)

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**SOTERO ORTIZ** (Chairman): Friends we have lots of things to discuss among us, and some of us people who are not here. We do not fully understand what this means, this emergency employment work. Proper blanks have been sent to each Governor of each pueblo to be signed by the younger folks, or all those who want to fill them out, but there is some misunderstanding and they have been feeling that those blanks are for the purpose of drafting soldiers and taking them into the Army. There is nothing of the kind. Then there is another thing that is very important to us. That is the things under the Pueblo Relief Bill that is the most important for us. Another thing is the matters connected with the Conservancy District. Now so we can thoroughly understand we must have someone tell us what they mean, and I believe that our present Commissioner will tell us about those things.

**MR. COLLIER:** Ask them which they would like to hear about first.

**SOTERO ORTIZ** (Chairman): Emergency work first, they say.

**MR. COLLIER:** I want to tell you about the new work which is to be done on your lands, if you want it, and which is to be done by Indian labor. About two months ago the President set aside an amount of money, six million dollars, to be spent in the half year ahead in making improvements on Indian lands, and only on Indian lands. The money is to be spent in the shape of payments to Indians who will work on these projects on their lands. You understand that there is another sum of money for the white people. You know there are great numbers of people unemployed at this time, in great want and in hunger, and in the beginning the Indians were not thought of in this plan at all, but it was for the white people unemployed in the cities, so an amount of money, one hundred and forty million dollars, was put aside by Congress to employ these white men. I give you this part of the proposition because it will explain some misunderstandings in the minds of some of you. Now, the plan for the white people was to enroll them and bring them togethier in camps in different parts of the west, and the Army would have a good deal to do with running those camps. It is not that the white men go into the Army, but the Army does help to run the camps. Then the President became interested in the needs of the Indians and he gave to the Indian Bureau six million dollars to be spent in employing Indians to work on the Indian lands and he gave to the Indian Bureau complete authority, so that the Army has nothing at all to do with the work that is being done with the Indians. There can not be any connection between this new work with the Indians and anything about the Army. There is no connection whatever. Now, how are we going to work with the Indians in this thing? Sometimes the Indians will live together in camps. They will have to do that when the work is far away from their homes. Sometimes the Indians will not live in camps but will live at home. It is all a question of where the work is to be done or whether the Indians need to live in

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camps in order to be near the work. Now, the next thing you want
to know is, what is the work? As many of you know, if not all of
you, a great many of the Indian lands have been damaged by one
cause or another. There are great forests owned by Indian tribes
and those forests frequently have great fires that destroy mile
after mile of timber. In other cases those forests have been cut
in such a way as to destroy all the trees. There needs to be a
planting of new trees. Now, in places like that the work that the
Indians are going to do will be such things as building fire trails
and anything else that will improve the condition of the forests
and make them more valuable. In other places, as out in the Navajo
and Papago country and in other parts of the country, as in Dakota
where the Indians depend on grazing for their livelihood and have
sheep and cattle. There are many places where the cattle can not
go and the sheep can not go and there are no means of getting to
the water holes. In those places the Indians will work improving
the springs, digging water holes and cementing them, and building
dams to hold the run-off water. In other places, as you know, the
grazing lands are washing away so that where once upon a time five
acres could feed a sheep now so much ground has washed away and
there is so little vegetation that it takes twenty acres to feed a
sheep. After a while, if the thing goes on, all of the soil will
be gone and there will be no more ground at all. It will be a
desert. Of course, this is just as true of lands that are not
Indian lands. All that I have said is true of all our forest land
and all of our grazing land, but we are now concerned only with the
Indian land and the work to be done on that land. Now the Indians
are going to work to stop this washing away of the land. That may
be more important than anything else in the world - to save your
land and to increase its value. Now, again, there are places where
the Indians have a range and they need to have it fenced in. In
those places the Indians will be cutting the posts and building
fences. Altogether, about 15,000 Indians will soon be working at
these projects all over the southwest and up in the north. Often
it will mean that the Indians will have to go a long distance from
their homes in order to get work. For example, it may be that some
Pueblo Indians might go down to the Mescalero Apache reservation
to do some work and some of the Indians from North Dakota will go
away down into Wyoming, a thousand miles or so. One very sorrowful
thing is about the Oklahoma Indians. We have 100,000 Indians in
Oklahoma, almost ten times as many Indians as in all of the New
Mexico Pueblos, but those Indians through the allotment system have
lost their lands and so we can't find the Indian land on which to
do the work in Oklahoma. There isn't any, so we can't employ the
Oklahoma Indians, although most of the Indians in Oklahoma are very
poor. That is, we can't employ them unless we move them over into
some other State, a long way. Now this thing I am talking about
will have a great deal of use if we can work it out. In the first
place, it will be just the same as if we added on, let us say,
5,000 square miles to the Indian lands, because we would improve

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the land so that it will come back into good condition, and we will stop the forest fires by building trails and other things, and we will have water where there wasn't any water so that the stock will be able to graze on new areas. I would say that if this six million dollars be well spent it might well add at least twenty million dollars to the value of the Indian lands. The next thing is that it will provide work for 15,000 Indians, and it will enable us to pay out in wages to the Indians more than four million dollars within the next six months. Now a third use will be this, that if the Indians will take an interest and help us choose what work to do and where to do it, and how to do it, and will do that in an organized way, then the Indians will take a big step forward in their power and in their organization. Let me put it another way. If you take the Indian Bureau the way it is being run today you find that about five out of every six people employed are white people and nearly all of the responsible positions are held by white people. Now, under this new work we are talking about all of the fundamental work is to be done by the Indians and not by white people. In addition, we want to use Indians as Foremen and Managers whenever we can and just as far as the Indians can tell us that they are prepared to do the whole thing we want to do it and do it through them. If it works out, it will result in a great increase for work for the Indians permanently, not just for the time being. We have a great hope about this work. We believe that it is going to bring the Navajo tribe, the Papagos and the Sioux way on in their development, and to some extent the pueblos also. Now, I want to explain one more thing. When men go out to work in the forests, working with teams, hauling and digging, handling the axe, and all those things, a certain number of men are always hurt. They are injured. You can not prevent it. Under the law under which we are working, if an Indian gets hurt in this work, if he cuts off a finger or hand, if a horse kicks him in the head, or he breaks his arm, if he gets some sort of internal injury from hauling or lifting, then he is entitled to compensation from the Government. The Government pays him for his injury and it pays him generously. In order to secure that compensation it is necessary for the man to show that he was well before he got hurt. In other words, he must be able to get a doctor to say that he was all right before he got hurt. Otherwise, he can't get the compensation. He has to be able to present a doctor's certificate that when he started the work he was a well man and not a sick man, and for that reason it has been ruled that the men going into this work must be looked over by the doctor before they start in order that the doctor may then and there write a certificate that this man is all right; he is healthy, and then if he gets hurt he is protected. It is just the same way when you take out life insurance. A man that takes out life insurance pays a little money to the life insurance company and then if he gets sick or dies the company pays a lot of money. Now, before anybody can take out a life insurance policy he has to be examined by the

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doctor and the doctor say that he is well; he is all right. I know
that in some of the pueblos some of the Indians have objected to
this medical examination, and there is no need for it among the
pueblos, but we do not want to leave the Indians without compensa-
tion if they get hurt, and unless we have this medical examination
you can not get your compensation if you are hurt. Now, it doesn't
take more than about three minutes to have the kind of medical ex-
amination the Indian Bureau is giving, and it doesn't hurt any and
it doesn't cost anything. I don't know why anybody would object,
but if a man does not get that examination and he goes in and a
truck runs over his foot, or any other accidents happen that you
know about, that man will lose $1,000, $2,000, or $3,000. Now,
coming down to some of the details, they really can be much better
explained to you by your Superintendents, Mr. Faris and Mr. Towers.
We have a number of others here who have been largely supervising
this work so far - Mr. Monahan, Mr. Wathen, and others, and Mr.
Neuffer you all know. There may be questions you want to ask which
they can answer better than I can, but I will tell you briefly what
work there is at present that we are hoping to do in the pueblos.
In the first place, we are hoping that the Indians, with our help,
can build about 500 miles of fence, fencing in their Grants and the
purchase Grants. No fence will be built anywhere that the pueblo
does not want it. In addition, we are hoping, I can't promise this
yet, but we are hoping to be able under this emergency work to take
care of the conditions created by the recent flood, and to prevent
damage from future floods at Isleta, Sandia, Cochiti, Santa Clara,
San Juan, and I think that is all. Someone says Laguna also. The
reason I say we are hoping is this, that under the law this money
can not be spent for flood control, anything that you call flood
control, so we are trying to prove that this work is not flood
control but erosion control. Whenever there is a flood it washes
away land and when land is washed away that is what we call erosion,
and I think that we can get all of this work construed as erosion
control and do it for you, or I mean put up the money so that you
can do it yourselves. Now, I think I had better stop and let you
ask any particular questions you have because we have here the men
who can answer them. I suggest that we talk now only about this
emergency work, and later we can talk about other things.

ANTONIO TAPIA (Pojaque): At some future time would this money that is going to be spent, would they pass a Bill to have it paid back?

SOTERO ORTIZ (Chairman): Mr. Tapia has asked about this money that is going to be spent among the Indians for emergency work. Now it has been asked whether the Indians will have to pay back this money to the Government. Is it reimbursable?

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**MR. COLLIER:** The answer to that is, and I want to make it clear, no, not under any conditions. There is no indebtedness placed on the pueblos for this money, or any other tribe. They will not have to pay any of it back. It will not be a reimbursable debt. That is the arrangement now and will always be the arrangement.

**ELI REARDSLEY (Laguna):** About the same thing. Where there is land that is doubtful, for instance, in a strip that we have, the Executive Order, or a portion of it. Can you use that money in the same way as though it had a clear title to it? Would it work just the same so that it will belong to the Indians in time to come?

**MR. COLLIER:** So that I understand your question, what is the particular land you refer to? Do you mean the Paguate Purchase? The work on an Executive Order reservation is just the same as if it were done on the Grant. We can do this work within the exterior boundaries of a reservation and it does not make any difference as to the nature of the title. Whether it is Executive Order land, a treaty reservation, or Grant land, or even allotted land. It is all the same. Now, do you want to ask any questions about the pay or do you all know that already?

**DELEGATE FROM PICURIS:** I understand there will be five working days during the week and my people were in doubt whether they are going to be paid when they are relieved from work to attend their fields, the days they can't work.

**MR. MONAHAN:** If they are not in camps maintained by the Government, they are paid 60¢ a day, to pay for their own food, on the days that they work. They get paid at the rate of $1.50 per day when they work, or $30 a month.

**DELEGATE FROM PICURIS:** The reason I brought this question up is because they are going to divide the work. There will be one part work one week and the other part will attend to their fields. During the time they are working in their fields are they going to be paid?

**MR. MONAHAN:** No, just for the days they work. They will be paid $30 a month for twenty days, which is $1.50 a day. If you work five days you will get $7.50; fourteen days $21. It is $1.50 for the actual days you work and in addition 60¢ for the days you actually work for food. Nobody can work more than twenty days in a month, the idea being to give more people a chance to work. It might be well to say that there is a provision for men who will be able to do other work. Some Foremen get $36 a month, which would be $1.80 a day, and another rate for a man who can take charge of a larger group of men is $45 a month, which would be $2.20 a day.

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That is for the ones that are able to do it, and they will be pro-
moted to those higher jobs if they can do it. The lowest pay is
$1.50 plus 60¢ a day for food; the highest $2.25 plus 60¢, unless
an Indian were employed as a Foreman and then he would be paid
around $100 a month.

**DELEGATE FROM SANTA CLARA:** At Santa Clara the Superintendent visited us and he told us if we work five days and were relieved two days we get paid just the same. They told us at Santa Clara that if we work five days and not Saturdays and Sundays, we get paid just the same, and report back to work just the same.

**MR. FARIS:** The intended meaning was this, that they wouldn't work Saturdays and Sundays and they would get $30 at the end of the month. I just stated to them the rate by the month.

**CHARLES COLLIER:** I think that some of the misunderstanding arose from our explanation. It was sort of complicated to figure it out by the day, so we stated it was the same as if they were being paid $1 a day for every day and they wouldn't work the two days in the week.

**PORFIRIO MONTOYA (Santa Ana):** Some of our boys have an understanding that if they go out to camps they will be furnished with clothing and their pay. Is that right?

**MR. MONAHAN:** No. The 60¢ a day that we are allowing is for food and a tent and is as much as it is costing the Government to furnish white men clothing, medical care, food, tents, etc. You can live a lot cheaper than 60¢ a day. We are giving medical care in addition to camp management, recreation, etc., so that we can not provide clothing without it costing a great deal more. Their total cost is $2.02 per day, while our cost is $1.50 plus 60¢, plus the cost of our camp managers, so that we are running the cost a good deal higher now than the cost that was set up by the President for the white men in the white camps.

**PORFIRIO MONTOYA (Santa Ana):** In the first place they told us, the day school teacher from San Felipe that if the boys go out to camps they would be paid $1 a day and their clothing, and the fellow who work at home $1.60.

**MR. MONAHAN:** He was mistaken. Before the President set this money aside for Indian work, word was sent out that Indians could enroll in the white camps, in which case they would get $1 a day and their clothing and food, but only those from 18 to 25 could enroll, and only those physically fit, and then they had to sign that five sixths of their pay had been allotted to their dependents. That was all before the President set aside this special money for the Indian work.

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**ANTONIO TAPIA** (Pojaque): Does the Government furnish the bedding?

**MR. MONAHAN:** The Government furnishes the bedding in those camps which the Government runs. Some of the camps will be built by the Government and the Government will run them and provide the beds. When men go into those camps they will just get the $1.50 a day, but where the Government does not put the camps together they will take care of themselves and will be expected to provide their own bedding. We have a few places, not here, where we are providing cots and they will get 40¢ to buy their own food. I don't think that any of the camps in the southwest are on that basis. They are camps in the northwest.

**MR. COLLIER:** We know, of course, that the wage that is being paid is not a large wage. The way we look at it is that it is work which you are doing for your own community. All of the results of the work go to your own tribal lands, to your own communities, so that it is in part that you are coming together to carry out a work needed by your own people. If a higher wage were paid the result would be that not as many people could be employed and not as much work could be done. At this time the effort is to spread the thing as far as we can and do as much good as we can for the greatest number, not only for the Pueblo Indians, but for all tribes. The pueblos are accustomed to doing, without any pay, a great deal of work for their community. All Pueblo Indians work for their tribe in all kinds of ways and they are not paid at all. They get the benefit because the tribe prospers, and they are members of the tribe. In this case they are also working for the pueblo, but they are being paid $1.50 a day, plus 60¢.

**ANTONIO TAPIA** (Pojaque): Are the posts and wire used on this land going to come out from that fund?

**MR. COLLIER:** Yes.

**MARTIN VIGIL** (Tasuque): About the medical examination, if the doctor examines us there might be some sick person. Then what would the sick person do? Would he be entitled to work?

**MR. COLLIER:** It would depend on the kind of sickness. If a man had some sickness that could be cured he would be told to get it cured and then come back. If it were just a bad cold he would be able to work when he recovered. If you had a bad heart so that if you were to do active work it would harm you, then you would not be able to work. Lots of people have bad hearts and they don't know it. Of course, you don't want an Indian with a disease that is catching to come in. This becomes quite a problem where Indians are brought in from other places. If an outside Indian were brought in, for example, you would have to watch out for contagious diseases, and a person ought not to be allowed to come in with a contagious disease.

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**MARTIN VIGIL** (Tesque): Another thing, when the doctor comes over to the pueblo does he have all day to examine the Indians. I ask this question because the doctor sent word to Tesque that he would be there last week on Thursday and of course everybody was working in their fields. He came around and told us that it was impossible for him to come and to wait for him day before yesterday. The doctor came in the morning around about 8.30 or 9 o'clock and of course everybody was still on the job in the fields, and the doctor and nurse came over to my house and told my wife - "what is the matter with the Indians here, they are not waiting." If he could just only wait ten or fifteen minutes but the doctor says he seems to have no time to wait for the Indians. Suppose if he comes next Thursday and finds no Indians does he have to do the same thing and keep on doing that?

**MR. FARIS.** I think we can attend to that. Of course, those examinations should be held when they are announced.

**MR. MONAHAN:** I think that you personally, Mr. Collier, did pass on the employment of a few women, particularly as cooks in some of the camps. Where there is work for women to do, the Superintendents can let you know and they will have authority to employ women at the same rate, $30 a month, plus 60 cents in lieu of food. Then, someone raised the question of employing sick men. We have had several letters come in in regard to employing men who are crippled. There are many crippled men who can perform some kind of work, such as taking care of tools. A one arm man can do that work, so that a crippled man can be employed if there is work that he can do.

**ANTONIO TAPIA** (Pojaque): Is there any objection to employing young men and old men?

**MR. COLLIER:** The question is you want to know how young and how old they have to be. The age that we adopted to begin with was 18 up, as long as they are able to work. There are some cases where Superintendents have wanted to employ boys under 18. We put it on the basis if there were not enough men with families and they wanted to work they could. If there are men with families to support they should be given preference. They can employ boys and can employ old men, just as old as the Indian wants to be.

**PORFIRIO MONTOYA** (Santa Ana): How about team work, and the wages?

**MR. MONAHAN:** We have been authorized to hire as many teams as necessary at the prevailing price for teams.

**MR. NEBUFFER:** We can pay not to exceed $1.60 for teams under 2,200 pounds and $2 for teams over that. That does not include the man. That is if the team weighs less than 2,200 pounds we pay $1.60 and

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if the team weighs more we pay $2, and if the Government feeds the
team we pay $1 for the small teams and $1.25 for the larger teams.

MR. COLLIER: If a man brings a team, how much money does the Government pay him?

MR. NEUFFER: $2.10, plus $1.60, or $3.70 for the small teams, and for the larger teams add 40 cents.

MR. COLLIER: Do you mean team, wagon and harness?

MR. NEUFFER: Yes sir. The weight of course does not include the
wagon. The weight refers to the horses only.

ANTONIO TAPIA (Pojaque): How about if a person furnishes his truck?

MR. MONAHAN: We are furnishing a few trucks and hiring others. The Superintendent has authority to hire trucks, if necessary at what he would pay regularly for it, so that when an Indian has a truck and, trucks are being used, the Superintendent may rent the truck. The same about tractors, at the prevailing rate for tractors.

PORFIRIO MONTOYA (Santa Ana): Suppose the Indians are hired to drive trucks. Are they going to be paid the same as the others?

MR. MONAHAN: Yes, the pay will be the same.

ANTONIO ABEITA (Isleta): Are the Indians going to be given preference in driving trucks over the whites?

MR. MONAHAN: Yes, as far as possible.

SOTERO ORTIZ (Chairman): How about gas? Is the owner of the truck going to furnish it or the Government?

MR. MONAHAN: That is an arrangement that will have to be made with the Superintendent, so that he will pay the prevailing rate without the gas or with gas. Whatever the local custom is. It will be an arrangement between him and you.

ANTONIO ABEITA (Isleta): What about transportation for the Indians that have to go out to these camps that are to be established? Does the Government propose to furnish transportation?

MR. MONAHAN: If they are going out to camps, they will be carried out in Government trucks. They won't be furnished transportation back and forth from the camps every day.

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**MR. COLLIER:** Suppose, for example, that Indians went out from Isleta, to work out 8 or 10 miles on the mesa, would they be transported by the Government or would they have to get themselves there and get themselves back?

**MR. MONAHAN:** We would get them out in trucks.

**ANTONIO LUJAN (Taos):** How about the Foremen? Would the Foremen have steady work until the work is finished?

**MR. COLLIER:** The Foremen are employed by the month and it works out at about $100 a month. He is not employed by the day.

**ANTONIO LUJAN (Taos):** Some of the time the Indian men has got to be changed. Suppose the Foreman got to be changed?

**MR. COLLIER:** I think the idea is that the Foremen will have to be on the job six days a week, and maybe seven. They will be employed by the month and will not be changed as long as they are good.

**SOTERO ORTIZ (Chairman):** If there is no other question to ask then we can go on to the Pueblo Relief Bill.

**MR. COLLIER:** The Pueblo Relief Bill finally was signed by the President on May 31. It is the same Bill which the pueblos had endorsed across two years of time. It is a very long Bill and I will just briefly state its main features. First, the Bill grants an increase of compensation to nearly all of the pueblos. The total of the new increased money is $761,000, which makes the total compensation $1,383,000. The Bill provides that this new compensation shall not be paid at once, but shall be paid beginning in 1937, which is three years from now. 1937 means July 1, 1936. One-third the first of July, 1936; one-third the next year, and one-third the next year. Now, I won't take the time to read the exact amounts to each pueblo, but the amount already appropriated is $620,000 and the amount that is in the Treasury now available to be spent is $497,000. The Bill provided that the use of this money, all the money, old and new, should be subject to the consent of the pueblos. Each pueblo would control the use of its own money. Now, in addition, the Bill provided for, we will say that it appropriated the money to pay the white settlers, a total of $232,000. Six months after that money is paid to the white settlers then under the new law it is the duty of the Government to put the settlers off the land if they don't get off voluntarily, which means, inasmuch as the money has been appropriated that the settlers can be moved off this year. Mr. Cochrane reminds us that it is going to take time to pay these white settlers so that we cannot state now the exact time when they can be put off. Further, there are various provisions in it to make it easier for the pueblos to buy land with the compensation money and which will enable them to select their

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own lands and a lot of what we call "red tape" has been cut. As you know, some pueblos have had money for five or six years and they haven't been able to buy any land with it. This Bill, as far as we could fix it up, clears all of that away. The Bill, with respect to the pueblo of Taos, practically sets aside for the perpetual use of the pueblo the water shed of the Pueblo river. I won't go into detail on that because it concerns only one pueblo. Then the Bill, Section 8, makes a very important provision. As you know, ever since 1924 the pueblos have been represented by Attorneys before the Pueblo Lands Board and in the Courts. These Attorneys have not been paid anything by the pueblos and there is no agreement under which the pueblos would pay them. They have been paid an insufficient amount only, by the American Indian Defense Association. The payment that has been made to them has been so small, in view of the amount of work they have had to do across these nine years, that it can be said they have been paid their expenses, but not any money. Some of them didn't get any expenses even. Likewise, Congress recognized that the pueblos would continue to need legal aid, especially in the matter of buying the lands. In all the questions of title and everything in connection with buying of lands, the pueblos would need a great deal of help, and so Congress enacted this Section 8 of the Bill, which says as follows: That any pueblo which received increased compensation under this Bill was authorized to pay to their Attorneys 7-1/2 percent of the increased new compensation, or any part of that amount, and 2-1/2 percent would be set aside for future services. To state the matter another way so that you get it clear - if a pueblo wanted to pay $100, $75 would go for past services across all these years gone by down to now, and $25 would go for future services in the years to come. This Section provides that a contract could be entered into by any pueblo and that contract would have to be submitted to the Commissioner and to the Secretary for approval. There is other language in the Bill, about other things, which it is not necessary to give you now. I have given you all of the main and important things. There is one Section that provides that all your priorities to water shall be intact and that you will not lose water through non-use or abandonment. That is good language although it only reenforces the existing law. Now, the problem before you will be to decide about the way you want your money to be used, bearing in mind that the law requires the money to be used either for the buying of land, for the improvement of water supply or for some other permanent use. For example, none of this money can be used to pay the salaries or other costs of the Indian Bureau. Again, none of this money can be paid out in cash to any individual Indian. The intent of the law is that the money will be used to build up your permanent land and your permanent property. I have simply given you a statement of what the Bill contains and regarding anything that is in your mind we are here to answer if we can.

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**SOTERO ORTIZ** (Chairman): Is this money going to be used for buying additional farm land, or if the pueblos want to use it that way what about mountain range?

**MR. COLLIER:** They can do that if they want to. Any land that they want.

**ANTONIO MIRABAL** (Taos): I have a question to ask. The question is suppose a pueblo decided not to buy land but just to keep the money for some future use, would it be safe?

**MR. COLLIER:** The money as long as it lies in the Treasury of the United States draws 4 percent interest. If it is $100 it will be $104 next year and about $108.16 the next year and so on, so interest is paid on this money. As for how safe it will be permanently, I can't tell you. I can only tell you what has always happened in the past. These Indian moneys, as long as they remain in the Treasury of the Government, are available for Congress to appropriate and there is really no limit on what Congress can do with them, and, sooner or later, all Indian tribal funds have disappeared. That has been the record so far. They have been used in one way or another and they have been used very largely to pay the expenses of running the Indian Bureau, and there is no way to guarantee that that would happen in the future. We could guarantee that we would try to keep it from happening as long as we are in office, but that would be no guarantee of what our successors might do and, even so, Congress could, without consulting us, dip into that money and use it. They could do it without consulting the Indians. Now, we could go to Congress and obtain some special law enabling you to get this money out of the Government and invest it in a trust fund or in United States bonds, in some way that would make it impossible for the Government to take it back and make it impossible for them to spend it. That would require new legislation. I do not think there is any immediate danger of the money being misappropriated by the Government. I think it is perfectly safe under the present administration, but we cannot make any guarantee about the future. I would say in general that if a pueblo either needs more land now, or will need more when its population grows, and knows that it needs the land, then the pueblo would be very wise to buy the land because prices are low now and they may never be as low again. If you waited 5 years prices might have gone up, but of course you wouldn't want to buy land that you do not need. You want to buy land that you do need, that you know you need, and you want to be sure that you do not pay too much for it, and you want to be sure that you get a good title so that there won't be any litigation about it and you won't have to go into court to defend your title in the future.

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**ANTONIO TAPIA** (Pajoaque): Suppose a white settler get a sum of money for land that he holds now in the Indian Grant. Would he have a right to send it back to the Secretary of the Interior and say, "No, I don't want this money, I want this land"?

**MR. COLLIER:** No, he would have to get out. He could return the money but he would have to get off, no matter what he does.

**FERNANDO BACA** (Jemez): Supposing the land purchased, is there any tax connected with it?

**MR. COLLIER:** No. If Indian lands are bought with money from the Government that land is taken off the tax rolls. It is not taxed. It becomes just like your other land.

**DELEGATE FROM PICURIS:** You say that the price of land is low. Up around Picuris they don't want to take the appraised value. For instance, we have a man who lives right there. He has an eight room adobe house and about 19 acres. He wants $3,500.

**MR. COLLIER:** He may be asking too much. You cannot make him sell, but also he may be asking more than he expects to get. It is also true that in some cases you may have to pay more than the appraised value because the appraisers were very often low on their value of the land. What is the lowest price you can really hope to get it for?

**DELEGATE FROM PICURIS:** This man was offered $2,000 but now he wants $3,500.

**MR. COLLIER:** The Indians, of course, are going to be careful about what they pay, but if a tribe should get tricked and should enter into a deal to pay some exorbitant price, then we would have to step in and say, "No, you can't do that." It is our duty not to allow the tribe to pay too much for land. The Indians will not want to pay too much.

**DIEGO ABEITA** (Isleta): The Pueblo of Isleta has discussed the expenditure of this money at a meeting recently and, as you remember, Isleta has some $47,000 coming. Besides buying out the lands within the boundaries of the Isleta Grant, they discussed the proposition to be recommended to your Office. You know the Isleta Pueblo has some 188,000 acres, 2,500 acres of agricultural land and the rest grazing. The Isleta Pueblo haven't got the stock to put on this grazing land and it has been necessary for the Isleta tribe, in order to realize any benefits from this grazing land, to lease their grazing land to outsiders and they realize a reasonable amount all right. They developed the proposition that, if possible some of this money be used to create a community herd of cattle to graze on this land. They feel that the income from a herd like that

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would be a great benefit, a lot more than they are getting from leasing it outright. The people seem favorable and pointed our various advantages of a proposition like that, and we wish to recommend that program to you. However, it seems to conflict with provisions of the law but, if possible, we would like to have the law made less stringent so that a proposition like that could be agreed upon. The Isletas have discussed it and I want to point out also that the Isletas are agricultural people like most all other pueblo people. During the summer time, harvest time, it has been our experience that the prices of produce comes down to a very low level and lots of times people realize less than it actually costs them to raise the crops. They would like to have it made possible for them to make use of some of this compensation money to create a cooperative market where the people can market their crops and hold them until later in the season when the prices advance and realize a little more on the cost of their efforts. They wish for us to recommend these two propositions to the Office for consideration.

**MR. COLLIER:** They are both very interesting ideas. Either of them would require an amendment to the law. I do not believe the Comptroller General would consider the buying of cattle to be in the nature of a permanent improvement. He might, but I think he would not and would refuse to pay the money if we should try it. You can get new language that would permit a thing of this kind. It can be done. As for the wisdom of doing it with this particular money, I would only raise this question. Isleta I believe has a fund independent of this money which it gets from leases. It has about $15,000 now. Is that right? The question is whether you couldn't utilize that money on one or the other of these propositions - that of the cooperative market or the purchase of a sort of breeding herd. You have that money and you can do with it whatever you want to.

**DIEGO ABEITA (Isleta):** This compensation money we thought was available for improvements on the land, and what lands we have lost we can't buy back.

**MR. COLLIER:** I am simply saying that already you have $15,000 and you could use it the way you are talking about right now. You don't have to wait. The law says that any expenditure of this compensation money is subject to the consent of the pueblo. If the Isletas couldn't agree to use this $15,000 to buy a herd, presumably it couldn't agree to use the other money. I would add that if the pueblo does want to do this with their compensation money and comes to Congress I am pretty sure that Congress would say "all right."

**DIEGO ABEITA (Isleta):** It is all so much capital, or it will be when we get the money.

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**MR. COLLIER:** You have a capital of $47,000, plus whatever lease money you have, say $70,000. You want to invest that capital in some way to benefit the whole community in a permanent way. If that method were a herd, all right, do it that way. It would be for the pueblo to determine. As I say, I am quite sure that Congress would say "all right, we will amend the Act to give you the freedom to do it."

**DIEGO ABEITA (Isleta):** That is what we recommend the Office to work on, because this money won't buy a tenth of what lands we have lost. The Lo de Padilla Grant is appraised at $284,000, and we are only getting $30,000. The purchase of any part of it would be negligible to what we lost.

**ANTONIO ABEITA (Isleta):** Would you consider, Mr. Collier, a large warehouse, say a warehouse that would have a capacity of something like 1500 tons of alfalfa, besides, roughly speaking, about 5000 tons of wheat and another 5000 tons of corn? In order to build a warehouse that will take care of all these things, alfalfa, wheat, and corn, it will require an expenditure of several thousand dollars. Would you consider that a building of that sort was a permanent improvement?

**MR. COLLIER:** Yes.

**ANTONIO ABEITA:** That is what we are working for and then with our fund, we will say $15,000 or $20,000, it could be used for the purchase of alfalfa, wheat and corn, and other produce that we would be able to hold over.

**MR. COLLIER:** Yes, and of course you will have a continuing income to your community fund. You may have some losses for a while. The more immediate problem is the one confronting those pueblos which are in need of land, like Picuris, Santa Clara, and San Juan, which have compensation money already. Their problem is to use that money to buy the land they know they need while the prices are still low. We have with us here the head of our land division in the Indian Office; we have the head of our property division; we have the Superintendents, Judge Hanna, and Mr. Cochrane, so that you have the means of getting anything explained to you about the law. Do any of you gentlemen of the Indian Office want to say anything about this matter now?

**MR. STEWART:** We haven't had much opportunity to interpret the law. Perhaps Judge Hanna could tell you something about it.

**JUDGE HANNA:** There is just one thought. In the matter of Attorney's fees, which I won't go into detail about. There will be no disposition to ask you to pay the Attorneys out of existing funds where you have any need for the use of those funds for the purchase of lands. In other words, we are not going to impair your ability to carry on your program during the next three years. Some of you have very little money. They

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will not be asked to pay Attorney's fees until that money is available, and if your condition is a combination of the two circumstances the idea will be 50% now and 50% later. 25% will be deducted and held by the Secretary to pay for the future services on a monthly or quarterly basis, as he may determine. One more thought - Mr. Towers, Mr. Faris, Mr. Cochrane and I have been coming to you for the last few weeks to get your thought directed to the proposition of what you wanted to do, what lands you wanted to buy, and most of you have given a great deal of thought to it. Everybody is willing to cooperate, but we will come to you from time to time with such help as you may need to accomplish these propositions and we will come to you shortly to talk over the entire problem with you again. We will probably write to you within a week asking you to fix some date for your Council to meet. We will be with you within a week, or two, or three, at your convenience, to talk the matters over in detail.

**MR. COLLIER:** While we are on this and because I may not be with you at a general meeting very soon again, I think it is proper to tell you my own view, which I think is equally the view of the Secretary of the Interior, about this matter of Attorney's fees. A report was made by Secretary Ickes to Congress, a report dealing with this Bill in very great detail and I will read you one paragraph from his report because I think it says the thing in a nutshell. "Section 8 of the Bill provides that the Pueblos may in their discretion pay to their Attorneys out of their compensation awards fees not to exceed 10% of the increased compensation, of which amount 25% shall be disbursed by the Secretary of the Interior for future legal services. These future services will be purchasing of needed lands and water for the pueblos. The payment of these fees is discretionary with each pueblo receiving compensation. The pueblos have received and will receive large services from Attorneys for the various operations made necessary by the act of June 7, 1924, Pueblo Lands Act." I imagine that no one else is in a position to know as well as I, unless it be Mr. Elkus, just how much has been done for you by your Attorneys, and by that I mean primarily Judge Hanna and his helpers here in the State of New Mexico. I leave out the question of the amount of work they have done. They have had to do so much work, to travel so much, that I am sure had they known in advance that they never would have undertaken to do it, but they became more and more interested and there was more and more work. What has happened as a result of their work is what counts. They represented you before the Pueblo Lands Board in thousands of cases. They appealed a large number of your cases to the Courts, clear up to the Supreme Court, and even at the time this Bill was enacted they had in Court a number of far reaching appeals in your behalf, and then you will remember when the Senate Committee came out here two years ago and held hearings on the whole matter it was these Attorneys who presented the case in such a crushing way, in such an unanswerable way that the Senate Committee reported back to Congress that the pueblos had not received justice and that they ought to get this increase of compensation and these other advantages which at last the

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Bill has given them. You will remember that a year ago they came to Washington in your behalf. They fought this Bill through before the House Committee and before the Senate Committee. They fought against the whole power of the Interior Department and Indian Office for month after month, and then again this year Judge Hanna came back and for a long period was busy putting the Bill through. Now, any member of Congress, any member of the Senate Indian Committee would tell you that but for this work you would simply be no where at all in respect to your compensation. The Bill would never have been even considered by Congress except for the presentation made by Judge Hanna and by Mr. Fahy when the Senate Committee were down here. It would never have gotten out of the Committee in Congress. Now, I have seen this kind of thing happen in Washington, again and again. I have seen Attorneys come before Congress and present some claim question which nobody contested for a tribe and they had one or two hearings before the Committee. It was all easy and quick and took only a few days. It has been a common practice in Washington and is happening right down to now. In the present case you are dealing with Attorneys as able as there are in the country and for work which it is really impossible to compensate adequately. I feel myself, and I don't hesitate to say it very strongly, that as a matter of moral obligation the pueblos ought to take advantage of this power which the act gives them. Nothing is required and no pueblo is required to compensate the lawyers even a dollar. It is entirely up to the pueblo. With reference to the future services, all I can say is that they are going to be just as necessary as the past services. The fact that you have now a Secretary of the Interior and a Congress whom you trust and who deserve your trust, it is not going to end. As I explained this morning, the Government is going to be very poor and we are not going to be able to pay the lawyers to do the work in the future for the work connected with your lands. There is no prospect of our being able to do it. As a matter of fact, until about two months ago, Mr. George A. H. Fraser, a very fine person, was being employed by the Indian Office and he would have handled a good many of these matters. We have found it necessary to discontinue that position because we didn't have the money. We are not going to have the money, and I don't believe we are going to get any more money next year. I would like for Mr. Elkus to give us his views because he has come all the way from San Francisco. You all know Mr. Elkus, who has supervised the work of these Attorneys ever since 1924 and I should add, though you know it already, that he has done it without any pay and he would not under any conditions accept any pay from anybody.

**MR. ELKUS:** The fight that has been made to get this additional compensation for you naturally fell mostly on the lawyers and in particular on Judge Hanna, who during practically the last two years has been working without any compensation at all and, more than that, has been putting up his own money to pay his costs and expenses. This has run into a very considerable sum and if you should fail to pay your lawyers fairly you would be committing a very unfair act. They certainly have worked very hard for the pueblos; they have given their very best for your

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interests. As you know, they have done it against a great deal of resistance. They have had a great deal of difficulty. Many people have opposed them but they did it not knowing whether they were going to get anything at all. If you had lost, if they had not been able to win for you, not only this money but money that you got before when they acted for you before the Lands Board, and the land that you have recovered, then they would have been without pay for their efforts. They have done all this, taking their chances that there would be a recovery and if there was a recovery that you would act fairly by them. All of us who have been interested in this, trying to help you, have done our best and I know that most of us would feel very sorry about it if the men who have done the real work - the Commissioner naturally will get no compensation for the efforts that he put forward in your behalf - but these lawyers who have done the work and done it under difficulties and done it during the last two years even at their own expense. They certainly are entitled to be fairly compensated by you out of money which you would not have received if it had not been for their efforts. If there is any question anybody wishes to ask, I would be very glad to answer.

MR. COLLIER: I want to tell you something else because you should know it to tell others. Not only is everything true, as Mr. Elkus has stated, but these lawyers, Judge Hanna and the others, never made the slightest effort even to secure this section of the Act, Section 8. It was not their idea even. It all came up at the time the Senate Committee was here and Senator Wheeler, who is now the Chairman of the Committee, was greatly impressed with what these lawyers were doing. He repeatedly asked who was paying these lawyers, not the Government and not the Indians. He was told they were being paid a little money by white friends, and finally up at Taos when he and the other members of the Committee were sitting around a table - Senator Bratton was there but I believe Senator Cutting was not - he said he intended to put this language into this Bill and to see that it was put through Congress because he thought it was a disgrace to have an arrangement whereby the Indians were forced to depend on charity organizations for legal aid. That is how this language got into the Act and it has been kept in by the members of Congress who saw the justice of it. Judge Hanna at all times has been willing to sacrifice himself in every way. That is true of the other lawyers. I have never been associated with a group of men who have been as indifferent to their own well-being and own income as Judge Hanna and his associates. It has been a work of love. Now that the time has come through an Act of Congress it is in your power to pay in part your moral debt. Of course, I do feel that you should pay that moral debt and I may say that not a single Indian has suggested anything to the contrary.

PABLO ABEITA (Isleta): I wish to say a few things in regard to this paragraph 8. Quite a few have seen this thing from the very start. I for one have studied this matter and I know, as you say, just what work Judge Hanna and his associates have done for us. It would seem an injustice if any pueblo should refuse to pay Judge Hanna for what work

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he has done. It certainly would be if I was refusing to pay 10 cents when I was getting $1 when I didn't work for it. We are getting $47,000 and why shouldn't we pay when they are asking so little. Fifty percent wouldn't be too much because if it had not been for them we wouldn't have anything. I think that it would be an injustice if any pueblo should refuse to pay our Attorneys who have done so much in these last ten years, what other people would probably never have done for us. He didn't know whether he was going to get anything and he never asked for it. Why should we people hesitate to pay 10 cents out of a $1 when it is through him that we are getting this money.

**ANTONIO TAPIA** (Pojoaque): That same point we discussed at the last meeting and we all agreed to pay 10 percent or below that. That is a question we settled last time.

**MR. COLLIER:** Are all pueblos agreed?

**ANTONIO MIRABAL** (Taos): I think we did write a letter to you about paying that 10 percent. The pueblos have all written to that effect.

**MR. COLLIER:** I don't remember that particular letter.

**ANTONIO MIRABAL:** It was signed by Desiderio here.

**MR. COLLIER:** Yes, I did get your letter. I remember it now. The reason for speaking at some length about it is because I have heard that some white people - people who fought against this Bill, have been saying that it would be wrong to pay the lawyers. That is why I have spoken to you about it.

**HERMAN VELARDE** (Santa Clara): I wish to ask Mr. Cochrane about a question. We have land up there we have been discussing about. I think Mr. Faris called you to investigate the old titles that we have there. Did you find anything about titles?

**MR. COCHRANE:** Are you speaking of the Juan Tafoya Grant? There is no hope for recovery there that I can see. There is simply some evidence that you bought part of that Grant, and then Spain disposed of it in another way, gave it to other people.

**HERMAN VELARDE** (Santa Clara): How come we get the Shoestring Grant?

**MR. COCHRANE:** The question of the Shoestring Grant was simply that the Courts interpreted what you bought. You interpreted your boundaries one way and the Courts interpreted the boundaries another way. Whether the Courts were wrong I can't say, but that is what the Courts said.

**HERMAN VALARDE** (Santa Clara): We tried to put it into the Lands Board's hands but they objected.

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MR. COCHRANE: The Courts found that the Spanish Crown had issued some sort of superseding grant before the United States got into the picture.

DIEGO ABEITA: There are several pueblos that have land in question similar to the one that the gentleman is speaking about. The Isleta Pueblo holds certain land that was purchased in 1804 and ran to the Rio Puerco. We went to fence that land in about two years ago and we found in our deed that somebody had interpreted the word *caja* to be *caje* which means only to the sandhills or foothills. We have secured copies of old maps showing the boundaries running to the Rio Puerco river and we would like for your Office to go into that. Also we have evidence of official surveys made heretofore that this Grant ran to the river and every other Grant runs to the river. They are very similar Spanish words and some smart scholar has changed the letter "a" to "e" thereby cutting off some 10,000 acres of land. We would like to go into that further and develop whether we have a reasonable claim to that land. We are under the impression that we bought that land once and we shouldn't have to buy it over again. We have maps here showing it, compiled by George Pratt, and some special surveys showing that Grant as running to the Rio Puerco. (Discussion with Mr. Cochrane and Mr. Collier about maps)

ANTONIO ABEITA (Isleta): Coming back to the subject that we were on a while ago, and that is the subject of compensation for paying the able lawyers that fought for our rights in these past years. I appreciate very much that the pueblos have shown no opposition in compensating the lawyers for their work, and I appreciate the attitude they take in compensating the lawyers. They certainly deserve it. A number of us, as Pablo has said, have been on the firing line for ten years past and some as far back as twenty years past, and we appreciate the work that they have done in our behalf for all of the pueblos. We also appreciate that in the future years they are to do more work for us and for that reason you are not paying them the whole 10%, but you will be paying 7-1/2% and the rest set aside for work in the future. I think that the pueblos have been appreciative of what was done for them in recovering thousands of acres of land and thousands of dollars.

FERNANDO BACA (Jemez): We have a very similar case like the gentleman here, about land matters, like Isleta. It is combined with three pueblos - Sia Pueblo, Santa Ana Pueblo, and Jemez Pueblo. It is called the Ojo del Espiritu Santo Grant on the west side. We have all the details here in our hands with us. We would like to show you the maps. We lost this case the same way in the private land claims.

MR. COLLIER: I would suggest that you have Judge Hanna, or Mr. Cochrane, one or the other, prepare a memorandum on this to be issued to me. I want to say this regarding Jemez, Sia, and Santa Ana. It has a certain general interest because there are similar conditions in other places. This is their complaint. Long ago, 200 years ago, Spain made a Grant to these three pueblos in common. It was a very large area and they grazed their stock on it for many lifetimes and they believed that they owned it and they did have a Grant from Spain. Finally this matter came before the

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Court in 1892, before the Court that was called the Court of Private Land Claims. Other people claimed this land and claimed they had Grants from Spain. The Court of Private Land Claims made a finding against the pueblos. My understanding is that the Court ruled that the Grant made to the pueblos had only been a Grant for grazing purposes and a temporary Grant until Spain might make a new Grant, and that after a while Spain did make a new Grant to white people and the Indian right had been destroyed. I understand that this was appealed to the Supreme Court which confirmed the action of the Court of Private Land Claims, which has had the effect of making this case closed as far as any Court is concerned. It has been settled by the Court and, having been settled, it cannot be reopened, even if it is wrong. Now, in addition, it appears that whatever was done that was wrongful had been done before the time when the United States took over this part of the world. It all goes back to the Spanish time. I don't know enough about this particular case to say that the Court was wrong, but there are other cases like this where there is no question. The question is what can we do about it even if the Court was wrong. It is very hard for Indians to make up their minds to some of these matters of procedure, where a thing that is wrong is made perpetual, and Indians are never able to make up their minds to that peculiar arrangement. All over the country I meet Indians who have a similar condition and they can't make up their minds to it that a thing which was right and they know it, still can't be done because some Court way off yonder ruled the other way and an appeal was taken and another Court ruled the other way. All I can say is that these procedures are fixed in the Constitution and in the basic law and we are powerless to go back of them. I think all we can do about most of these cases is to get out the whole record to show how the wrong was done and take it to Congress and ask Congress to do something to make up for the wrong that the Courts have done. I don't think we can do any more than that and in the future we can do that. We can go beyond the Pueblo Lands Act, which itself puts right a great many things. As a matter of fact, in the case of the Sia Pueblo at least, we must go to Congress and get relief because unless Sia can obtain more land Sia is doomed to perish and Congress must do something, and I believe we can get Congress to do something. Our power is limited. It is easier to get money from Congress than it is to have Congress give public lands to the Indians because the white people all rise up and protest against any adding of land to reservations when that land is taken from the tax rolls. Congress does it from time to time. In 1928, 14,000 acres were added to the Acoma Grant. In the year ahead we hope Congress will add 100,000 acres for the Navajos of holdings taken out of public domain. This administration will do everything in its power to get you justice, but I don't believe the remedy lies in Court for perhaps any of these cases.

FERNANDO BACA (Jemez): We would like to express our appreciation of your cooperation on this.

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**MR. COLLIER:** We ask that you get these matters to the Washington officials by way of your local people. Let it be gotten up in a simple memoranda form by either Judge Hanna, or Mr. Cochrane, or by the two of them. Send it on to us along with any of the necessary documents, which we can use in getting the opinion of our Solicitor of the Interior Department or which we can use in presenting it before Congress. Don't send us odds and ends but get them to us in an organized way, with an accompanying memorandum. Don't send original papers, just copies.

**DIEGO ABEITA (For Sandia):** The Governor of Sandia Pueblo wishes me to express his appreciation to all friends who have worked for this Lands Bill. They agree with Pablo about Judge Hanna's efforts and they are of the opinion that when the time comes they are willing to settle with Judge Hanna for his work in their behalf.

**SOTERO ORTIZ (Chairman):** How about in this case? If an Indian claims land like in a settlement and he loses. Can he be compensated and still hold the land?

**JUDGE HANNA:** No. The compensation is based upon the return of the land to the Pueblo, the Government assuming the value of that loss. He can't have his cake and eat it too.

**SOTERO ORTIZ (Chairman):** There is a case like the way I refer to in the pueblo of San Juan.

**JUDGE HANNA:** That compensation money must go to the pueblo. The claimant can take the money or he can take the land, where he is an Indian. The decree of the Board is now becoming final.

**SOTERO ORTIZ (Chairman):** I believe that we won't get through with our work tonight. We will have another meeting in the morning. We can go ahead a little more and then we can adjourn until tomorrow. If there are any questions that you want to ask then you can do so.

**ANTONIO TAPIA (Pojaque):** I would like to hear the section that refers to water rights in the Bill.

**MR. COLLIER:** Section 9. "Nothing herein contained in the Bill shall in any manner be construed to deprive any of the Pueblo Indians of a prior right to the use of water from streams running through or bordering on their respective pueblos for domestic use, stock water, and irrigation purposes for the lands remaining in Indian ownership and such water rights shall not be subject to loss by non-use or abandonment thereof so long as the title to said lands shall remain in the Indians."

**JUDGE HANNA:** The law now provides for a forfeiture for non-use that continues for four years. This will protect you in the future against such losses as you have had in the past. The Board in holding that you lost certain lands on which water had been used necessarily held that

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you had lost the water as well as the land, but they didn't compensate
you for the water. The result is that you have lost land and water over
the past thirty years. Now, the Government, through Congress, by this
Act, has said that in the future you will not lose water which is
appurtenant to or connected with the land on which it is used and it
is a contradiction on the law of irrigation and use of water that did
have application to you in the past. In the future, regardless of
use, Congress has declared that you shall not lose the water. The
fight against this Bill was largely upon the theory that you hadn't
lost the water rights, that they could be recovered, but in point
of fact the United States District Court held that you did lose the
land and that you would lose the water rights that went with the land.

(Discussion between Mr. Collier and Judge Hanna about Section 17 of Act
of 1924)

**ANTONIO TAPIA:** In 1886 the Pueblo of Puebloque had a case in the District Court and they fought that case for a long time. They spent a lot of money to adjudicate a certain irrigating head of water that the Mexicans were claiming. They claimed that they had a Grant and they wanted to use a certain portion of water from our ditch. Then this case was carried on in the Court and it was settled that we had it as ownership of this water right, and now the Mexicans say that we don't have it. The land is there yet. This lady here has it because her father had it, and then the rest of the pueblo played out. She wants the title to a certain tract of land there and she wants to put the water right the same as it was, and we all used it because it was for the community of the pueblo. Before that time it was used, certain water rights, but when they adjudicate the new one that is the one that was recognized by the Mexicans. I don't see how if we have spent money to establish this that we should lose this case.

**MR. COCHRANE:** I have seen some of the old papers there. The difficulty is that this is a ditch under which there are both Indians and non-Indians. The Non-Indians have the upper stretch and the people in Puebloque are down at the end. The dispute is that they want it any time they wish to use it, whereas the Non-Indians say they must use it whenever it is convenient.

**MR. COLLIER:** May I suggest that you do the same way as I have already suggested to the others. Get this thing shaped up by either Mr. Cochrane or Judge Hanna, send it on to us, and we will see what we can do.

**PABLO ABEITA:** When we lose the land with the water it simply means that the non-Indians who acquire land, together with the water, could have only an equal right, just as much right as the Indians on that piece of land? He has not the prior rights?

**MR. COLLIER:** No, whatever right that land has he acquires.

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**ANTONIO MIRABAL (Taos):** Speaking about water rights, we are getting land called the Tenorio Tract which a Mexican had 25% I think. I want to ask if we have water right on that tract.

**MR. COLLIER:** Yes.

**ANTONIO TAPIA (Pueblo):** We have a new highway going through our Grant and we ask the road contractor where he want the gate for a Mexican who holds title there, but he came over to the General Surveyor and ask if he could open that gate where he wanted it so he did it. Could that be stopped? Can he put a gate wherever he pleases?

**MR. COLLIER:** Mr. Cochrane ought to be able to answer that.

**MR. COCHRANE:** You can stop a road across your own property.

**MR. COLLIER:** About all of these little cases, the Government, as you know, employs a Pueblo Attorney. That Attorney gives all of his time and looks after these things as they come along. If we will take the thing to him promptly he can answer your questions quickly. Sometimes he will require a little while to investigate, and generally a matter of this kind can't be settled by a person not a lawyer. They can't find the answer. There will always be a Pueblo Attorney at your service.

**ALBERT PAYTIAMO (Acoma):** Mr. Collier, talking about loss of land, I am going to ask you this. A while ago you stated that 14,000 acres was given to Acoma, and we put this before you last time the investigators came around. Now that 14,000 acres is called checkerboard townships. I spend $1,020 a year on that land renting it, and it ought to be the way we put it before the Committee, that it ought to be exchanged for railroad land. That includes with my neighbors, the Lagunas, that we get about seven townships and all but two of those townships are on dry land, and still I am paying $1,020 a year. Within about a few more years I will be out of money and what will I do from there on?

**MR. COLLIER:** There is a Bill pending that provides for a scheme of transfer and consolidation that will give you all that railroad land.

**ALBERT PAYTIAMO (Acoma):** It ought to be taken up right away because I am running short of money.

**MR. COLLIER:** They will, I have no doubt, but you still will not have enough land.

**ALBERT PAYTIAMO (Acoma):** The land which we are on now is over-grazed, same as at Laguna. Some of these Lagunas that are leasing from me, they are over-grazed just like our Grant, and we would like to have that checkerboard exchanged right away because we are running short of money. If that action could be taken soon we will appreciate it.

**MR. COLLIER:** It cannot be taken up before Congress meets.

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**ALBERT PAYTIAMO (Acoma):** I appreciate what you have said that we are still wards of the Government and hope that all the time they will promise that the Government will continue on for us. As you stated a while ago, that the Indians ought to take things in their own hands, but that will have to take a great deal of education. Some of these Indians, especially these Northern Indians, they are not up to the point, and it will have to take a long time before we take action on that business, like being lawyers, doctors, and things like that. It will probably be many many years before we can take action on that, but if the Indians could take more interest in their education it would probably not be so far, but I do not think it will be soon. I appreciate everything you said and what the Council has said. It is pretty hard to do things, but in the way the Commissioner has told you that brought up cases such as loss of land, that you take it up the way they told you in an organized form and send it on to Washington and get some Congressman to take action. Many things the Indians don't understand. Where the Government is going to give work to do around the reservations in some places they misunderstand about the situation. I think it is all clear to you, what they have said, but many times the Indians don't understand. You have to explain it several times, over and over, but if each pueblo would get together and talk the matters over they can understand better. Santo Domingo a while back were trying to get an interpreter and three or four of them were sitting there who could interpret. In that way we lose more time. We could have brought up some other things, but you ought to come here with your interpreter and let him interpret for you. Let us not waste time. Take up your cases with the Commissioner. He will do all he can to work with you and do what he thinks he can do. Sometimes it is pretty hard to make him understand. I thank every one of you for your attention and I appreciate what Mr. Collier says, the work that others are doing and in the future we hope that they do the same thing as long as they are in office or in their positions.

**ELI BEARDSLEY (Laguna):** I wish to waste a little more time, and perhaps really it is not a waste of time. I guess everyone appreciates the presence of our Commissioner of Indian Affairs. I for one have been thankful for his presence because I think we as Indians of the southwest have depended on him or looked to him for the things that have been troubling us in the past years, things that have been brought up, as Mr. Collier has said, things that have been brought up in the Courts and have been disposed of by the highest tribunals in our State and country. Those things are done. They have been disposed of. That is the thing that is very hard for the Indians to understand. Of course, we know that there is injustice to the Indians in most every case that has been brought before these great tribunals. We can't forget the injustice that has been done us and the only salvation I believe we have is through the presentation of our cases in such a manner that we can get together and present these cases as a sort of plea for justice. We have a great deal that we must plead for. There is insufficient land for all of us. Land that our forefathers owned has been taken away from us. We have been deprived of all these things in the past through the Courts, through no fault of ours, and I believe that in presenting our cases each and every pueblo should condense

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all their matters and present them through our immediate Agents, to the
Commissioner and to Congress. I believe that every one of us will get
justice. We will get consideration and that is all we ask for. Every
pueblo that is represented here today I know will ask the just considera-
tion that is due them. I know that every one of you that has had land
that your forefathers owned once upon a time, it is hard for you to forget
it. It comes back to you and every time you look around you see a new
child born and you wonder whether this child is going to have any land
or not. That is the hardest thing. We are increasing in population
daily. There are so many more children born, but not an inch of land is
added to our land and therefore it is up to every one of us to see to it
that additional land is gotten and purchased from some of your great
amounts that you have received from awards. Those who haven't received
very much award of course cannot buy much territory, but we will look to
Congress for additional land. That is all we can ask. The Indian must
decide for himself his own destiny. As the Commissioner has put it up
to us, the thing is in our hands, our destiny is left to us to make of
it what we may. I believe all of you will realize that about 157 years
ago this great American Constitution came into existence. They declared
themselves free and independent from across the big sea and, as I sat
here and listened to the Commissioner's speech, it seemed to me that
today the Indian is liberated, that it is up to us to become independent
and use our own judgment. We have our own Government. Improve on those
things for the welfare of future generations. I think it is time that we
realize these things; that we must stand together united. The aim of the
Government has been for the Indian to become self-supporting, to become
an individual, to become an asset and not a burden to his State or to the
Nation. There is a whole lot that we must consider along this line. The
more firmly we are united as one, or several pueblos in one, the more we
are going to be able to accomplish. Where there is union there is power.
That is what the pueblos must understand. We have got to exercise our
intelligence. We have got to get to a point where we have better under-
standing among us, so that there will be power. As I have said, in union
there is power. If we stand together, united, we can go to Congress and
have Congress consider our cases as one individual. We cannot pull apart
and be a success. We want everyone's cooperation. We want to cooperate
with the Commissioner in the present program that he is trying to follow
out. We want to do our part. If we don't do our part, he is going to be
a failure. If we do our part, he will be a success. It is up to us to
make or break. I am saying this in all sincerity and I am looking forward
to the time when this meeting shall not have to use an interpreter. It
will be one of the greatest things that we can do because in that way
business carried on in one language is the easiest thing. You can ac-
complish things directly. This indirect way of doing things sometimes is
not very successful, because with your interpreter there is perhaps a word
misconstrued or a misunderstanding comes about. I urge every one of you
hereafter to select for your delegates persons that can carry on a conversa-
tion in the spoken language of the nation, English. I want to say again
before closing that I certainly appreciate the Commissioner's presence

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here and all his helpers with him who are here for our interest. Whatever
we put before them they are going to consider and execute it to the best
of our ability. I wish to thank the Commissioner and his staff for com-
ing out here and I thank all of you for listening to me for a few moments.

SOTERO ORTIZ (Chairman): I think we better postpone the meeting until
tomorrow morning, as everybody is tired. We will meet again tomorrow
morning at nine o'clock.

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ALL-PUEBLO COUNCIL
SANTO DOMINGO PUEBLO

JULY 5, 1933.

10 A. M.

SOTERO ORTIZ (Chairman): Well, I guess we better proceed with our meeting. Now the first thing our Commissioner will point out some things that he has to tell us.

MR. COLLIER (Commissioner): First, I will make some announcements. All that is said at this meeting is being taken down by the stenographer. Copies will be made at Washington and a copy will be sent to each governor, and in addition, to anybody else that wants them. We will supply a number of copies to each superintendent so that they will be able to supply them to any individual who wants them. You don't have to write to Washington, you can write to Superintendents Faris, Trotter, and Towers for a copy. But as soon as the copies are made one will be mailed from Washington to each pueblo.

Now second, one of our men from Washington came in this morning, Mr. Lyons, and has brought with him a very fine camera, a camera that makes moving pictures, so during the day, perhaps about 12 o'clock, as you go out into the open he will take a moving picture of the All-Pueblo Council. We will have that picture and it can be shown to Indians in other places who would like to know about this council, and it can be shown in the many schools which have moving picture machines.

Now there are a few little matters that we dealt with yesterday that I want to speak of again. First, about the fencing of your land under the new work. Two or three of the delegations have asked me whether, after their land is fenced they have got to keep their cattle inside that fence. The answer is No. Things will be just the same as they always were. Some of them asked, "after we fence our grant and our land, is that going to get in our way when we try to obtain more land in the court or Congress?" The answer is, not in any way; it cannot get in your way. It would not interfere with anything you may desire in the courts or in Congress. It cannot be used as an argument against your getting more land. You understand too, that no pueblo is going to be given a fence unless it wants one. That's for the pueblo to decide.

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Then I want to repeat something about this money that is
going to be spent on your land, that it is not going to
be a debt against you. You will never have to pay it
back. It will not be a reimbursable debt or a lien on
your land, or a debt on you.

In that connection, just a piece of information for the
pueblos of San Juan and Cochiti, about the bridges across
the Rio Grande at those places. Those bridges were made
a reimbursable charge against those pueblos a number of
years ago. Well, under the Leavitt Bill passed a year
ago, it will be possible to wipe out many of these reim-
bursable charges. The charges for those bridges will be
wiped out and Indians will not owe any money on account
of those bridges.

Now yesterday we talked about the rate of pay for those
that will work in the conservation work, and why it was
not wise to make it more than it is. I think that Martin
Vigil of Tesuque has something to say about that, and if
he has I suggest that he say it now.

MARTIN VIGIL (Tesuque): Commissioner Collier, and members of the Council: Before I go into the matter of the fencing I want to speak a few words about the land we lost and the water rights. I want it to be thoroughly understood with my pueblo members here. We have learned yesterday that the lost land, the water rights go with it. Suppose, if a ditch runs through the settlers' land and flows into the Indian land, does the Indian get the same right as the settlers get? That's what I want to know.

MR. COLLIER: You mean, so we understand, a ditch that runs through land that belongs to the settler and land that belongs to the Indians, whether the Indian acreage has a right to as much water acre by acre as the white settlers. Now, see if I understand your question. You have a ditch that starts way up in the mountains, the water starts up there and comes through a ditch, first through the white lands, and you claim that the whites up stream have taken more than their share, so as to leave more of your acreage without water, and you want to know whether anything can be done to recover that water for you. I just wanted to state the question clearly before I called on Mr. Cochrane and Judge Hanna to tell you what they think.

MR. COCHRANE (Pueblo Attorney): My view is that if that water was used on Indian land and the title of Indian land is gone the water is gone with it.

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JUDGE HANNA: It is my opinion that it could be recovered if we could get it down to them. You would have to prove beneficial use.

MR. COLLIER: The answer in law, as Mr. Cochrane says, is that you could recover the water, not the water that went with the lands the whites get but with the lands you get. You would have to show that it was possible to bring that water to your land and not lose it on the way. If you couldn't show that then you couldn't show that you were able to use it beneficially.

JUDGE HANNA: There is no question about the right of recovering the water if it can be shown that it has been used on Indian lands. Now if it is a question of whether or not the white settler above has used this water and has acquired the land to which the water is appurtenant, and that all has been settled by the Pueblo Lands Board, that is a different situation. If it is not involved, if the Indians have used water that has been coming through this particular ditch on lands that belong to them the right has become appurtenant to that land, and since that right was acquired the white settlers above have taken it, and it certainly can be recovered.

MR. COLLIER: It is not a matter that can be settled finally, except through a law suit. I believe that a great deal of work has been done toward such a suit and it is still sort of hanging in the air.

MR. COCHRANE: The solution as I see it, is to develop all water on all the land because as an engineering proposition we do not believe we can get that water out of the river up above and get it down to the pueblo.

JUDGE HANNA: It is largely an engineering question, a question of measuring the water.

MR. NEUFFER: I might say in that respect, we have been trying to get some money to make an investigation of the situation there. We have some few scattered water measurements but they are so scattered that they would be of little value. Two years ago we tried to get some money for that, and this year we have a little that we can use. In connection with this matter we have record of a very dry year. If they had to get the entire flow of the stream they wouldn't have gotten anything down there. We have a filtration

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system at Tesuque which does give a fairly good water
supply. It will require considerable money and I think
there is an estimate in those papers which I gave you
for the public works program. I thought you might get
it under the public works money. It has not yet been
included and I still think we have an opportunity of
justifying the request.

MR. COLLIER: What amount would it take?

MR. NEUFFER: About $5500. Mr. Thompson looked it up.

MR. COLLIER: You can make sure that we take steps to have it included.

MR. MONAHAN: I am afraid that if we go into a law suit on that, if we should win, we wouldn't gain anything on it.

MARTIN VIGIL (Tesuque): I think Mr. Neuffer made a clear statement. One year it was dry and we or the settlers didn't get anything. The reason I asked this question, the settlers have only two days and the rest of the week the Indians have water.

MR. RADCLIFFE: I think Mr. Vigil is talking about the ditch through the Mitchell tract. At one time it was used in common and for the last few years they haven't been getting any water at all. The Mitchell Tract has been getting it all.

MR. COLLIER: Does that mean they are up stream and are simply taking it? Have the Mitchell people any kind of prior right?

MARTIN VIGIL: They have been using all the water for the last few years and dopriving the Indians of the water.

MR. RUPKEY: There is a tract of land adjacent to it and they are just taking it, they have been using all the water in the last few years.

MR. COLLIER: How have they been able to do that?

MR. RUPKEY: I don't know.

JUDGE HANNA: Are there any measurements at Tesuque. No records available? Can they prove how much they were accustomed to using before the Mitchell Tract took it all?

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MR. COLLIER: You mean if all the money is not spent now, can you spend it later?

MARTIN VIGIL: I mean if the money is all gone before we finish.

MR. COLLIER: We can't answer that now, Martin. We don't know. That will depend on whether the unemployment condition continues.

MARTIN VIGIL: I was asking one of our Attorneys last night and I would like to have him say a few words.

MR. COLLIER: I think this, Martin, about that question. We ought not to plan at this time any more fencing than we have money to complete. You don't want an unfinished fence. We ought to plan within the limits of our present money, but this is also important, that we do not have an unlimited amount of money. Six million dollars has to be used all over the United States, and unless the money is spent carefully, economically, and the work is done well and cheaply, then we can't do as much. I think that is partly what you are trying to convey. About this matter of your reimbursable charges, I would like Mr. Monahan to onlarge on what I said about charging off those bridges.

MR. MONAHAN: All the charges against Indian reservations were wiped off. We submitted a report to Congress last December signed by the Secretary of the Interior wiping out about two million dollars on irrigation, none of that in New Mexico, and about $200,000 on tribal herds, and over $800,000 on roads and bridges. As far as I could find out from the records, every bridge, reimbursable, and every road, reimbursable, but one, has now been wiped off so there is no charge against them.

ANTONIO MIRABAL (Taos): I have a question to ask you. Is this 15% deduction on this job, like other work?

MR. MONAHAN: No, not on the pay of Indians for ordinary work, that is $1.50 a day. There is a 15% deduction on those who are hired as foreman around $100, whether Indian or white, but on the ordinary work at $1.50 a day there is no 15% deduction.

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Minutes of the Plains Congress

thing clear. Mineral land and oil lands are not dealt with in this Bill. The allottee who owns an oil well would hold his oil well in severalty, though it could be arranged that, if he wanted to part with it to the tribe, the tribe could buy it.

Then, in my statement concerning the new lands bought for the landless Indians, I stated that, in such a way that apparently, I gave a misunderstanding to some of you when I said that all members of the community would have an equity in all the land, including the new lands. That statement, of course, is correct. But, obviously, it is the landless Indians who have the preference right to use the new land. I suppose that will be clear.

Then, to state again the matter of descent of heirship as proposed in this new Bill. Upon the death of an allottee, his heirs would inherit first the right to use or receive the rental value of an equal amount of land. In the second place, the heirs, by a will, could be given the exclusive occupancy of the identical piece of land in question, the title going to the tribe. This will be more fully clear as the details are explained, but I simply wanted to avoid giving any misunderstanding on my own part.

Mr. DAVIDSON: I never referred to any ceded land. I referred to the reservation and which we are now occupying and my question has not been read and I believe I am still in order.

Mr. COLLIER: Mr Davidson's question is as follows: "Concerning the second section of Section 3, of title 3, Page 26" (That is the second paragraph which I read a while ago.) Then he proceeds to quote that paragraph which I read.

I explained that that paragraph related to the ceded lands, did not relate to reservation lands, could not relate to reservation lands because it says about these lands, "Such lands shall be re-opened to sale, settlement, entry, or other lawful form of disposal in accordance with existing law."

I am explaining that Mr. Davidson's construction of this paragraph is an incorrect construction, but I added that, in order to make the undesirable construction impossible, there ought to be added the words referred to in the paragraph above. In other words the surplus and ceded lands. The paragraph as printed is nothing in clearness. Mr. Davidson's point is well taken, although there could be no doubt as to how the courts could construe the language. To make it sure, we are suggesting that those words be added.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I would like to ask Mr. Davidson whether the explanation of the Commissioner is satisfactory now?

Mr. DAVIDSON: Mr. Chairman, I was asked to put my question in writing to be presented before this meeting and I have done it

61

and it has not been read yet. (Applause.)

Mr. COLLIER: We will proceed with the minutes of the meeting.

Mr. Davidson yesterday quoted the paragraph which we now read twice then he asks a question which I have answered twice, and I will read the asking of it again—"does this paragraph, which he states off-sets Section 3, construe to mean that the Secretary of the Interior will be empowered to re-open all lands lying outside the boundaries of communities to be determined by the Secretary of the Interior." "As provided in the Senate Bill 255 and does the Bill further construe that the Indians will not need such surplus lands outside such community areas should Bill S-2775 become a law." Now as I have explained, the language in question does not effect any Tribe in or out of a community or any allotted land in or out of a community. It deals, as it is clear, only with these surplus or ceded lands now in the hands of the land office for disposal. It directs the Secretary of the Interior to take those lands away from the land office and restore to the Tribes such portion of these surplus or ceded lands as the Indians need, and then with respect to those surplus or ceded lands, which they don't need, to re-open them under existing laws, and I said that in order to avoid any misunderstanding, although actually no court could misunderstand, we added new words explaining that the language refers only to these surplus or ceded lands and not to any other lands.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: I believe it is very clear now and I would like to call on Mr. Marshall, Chief of the Forestry Division, to speak to you about the consolidation of grazing lands and timber lands, what they mean, why, and how these consolidations are to be accomplished, Mr. Marshall.

Mr. MARSHALL: I think that I have about the easiest job on the program today, because I have got to say principally what is wrong, and particularly I have to say what is wrong with the way lands are blocked out in individual ownership. I am going to tell you a little bit about why the Indians lose money when their timber lands are all broken up into small hunks of land but I am going to tell you mostly why the Indians lose money when their grazing lands are all broken up into individual allotments.

I believe that there are very few of the tribes here who have got allotted timber lands, but so you will understand everything that is in the Bill. I will try to make this clear, even though it does not apply to your particular Reservation.

There are many Reservation in the country where the allottees have lands right in among the timber. On one of the Washington Reservations, the allottees sold about $2,000 worth of timber, and

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because this timber was sold and the unit was partly cut over, the lumber company which had formerly offered $20,000 for the unit would not buy any of it, all because the $2,000 worth had been cut out and they could get a better proposition where no cutting had been done. Now this case is just an example, and perhaps an extreme example.

SOME INTERPRETER: Mr. Marshall, I think they would prefer it on the Plains. This timber proposition does not concern us.

SIOUX INTERPRETER: Yes, but it concerns us, I want to interpret that.

Mr. MARSHALL: So now, I will leave the timber and woods and go out on the plains. (Laughter.) I can think of at least six different disadvantages—six different ways in which the Indians of the country lose money where their grazing ands are all broken up into small units. The first and most obvious way is the amount it costs to administer the land. Now, I have just talked to a couple of the Superintendents on the platform, here and one of them estimates that it takes about 10 per cent of his time just in connection with grazing leases and permits, and the other estimates it takes about 50 per cent of his time. Now, all of that costs money because there is a lot more money besides that involved.

I will give you an example and it isn't an extreme example at all.

There are, in the Indian Reservations, allotments of 160 acres with as many as 100 different heirs.

INTERPRETER: We would like to get that example.

Mr. MARSHALL: This is the example, about that allotment with so many heirs. It has cost, on the average, as much as 50 cents, figuring all the costs of stockmen and others in and out of the Office, to get the signature of an heir, and those connected with the land. Or, in other words, the administration of the leasing of this one allotment has, in cases, cost as much as $50. Now, the receipts have been, perhaps about 10 cents per acre, which would be about 16., so, when the land is broken up that way by heirship and allotment, it sometimes costs as much as $50 to administer for a return of $16. Now, I admit that is an unusual case today, but it does happen that way today sometimes, and twenty years from now and thirty years from now, if the present system continues, we will have cases a whole lot worse than that one.

We have grazing allotments today from which each heir receives less than one cent. Thirty years from now, if the present system continues, each heir will get enough money to buy himself about one toothpick. (Laughter.)

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Now, a second evil of the present system, I have tried to show on this blackboard here. It is a fact that unless you have very close administration, and on many Reservations unless you have a permit system, the stockmen will not lease all the land. Until a few years ago, this situation was true on practically every Reservation. Today it is still true on a good many Reservations. In the future, if the present system continues, it will be true on a lot more Reservations where we can not possibly have enough men to take care of and check up on all the leased lands. Now, this is the situation.

A stockman comes in and first of all makes a lease on the water hole is. Then, he finds that there are some Indians on this unit a 60 acre tract here, and there. Perhaps 640 acres where the water hole is. Then, he finds that there are some Indians on this unit of grazing land he wants to use who know very well how to handle their own business affairs. He knows he can't get away trespassing on their lands, so he comes out and pays them lease money, and those lands I have shown by these lots scattered throughout here without the yellow dots. But, all in between these lands he finds Indians who might not know enough about the white man's way of doing business to protect themselves from being cheated. They may be old people who can't get out on the land, or children who can't take care of themselves, and the stockman will go ahead and trespass his sheep or cattle on those lands and take a chance on getting away with it. If he is caught he may pay a fine of $1 a head. But, as I have heard from a good many of you here, in many cases when he trespasses he is not caught. (Applause.) So, what actually happens is that unless permits are granted, the stockman gets away with using the range and only paying for perhaps one-half or three-fourths of it. and the people who suffer this way are the old people and the children and the ones who are not used to the white man's way of doing business and who cannot protect themselves.

Mr. Mandan: Who is responsible for that?

Mr. MARSHALL: The superintendent is responsible for that. The question which Mr. Mandan raised is the one which is the work trouble with this whole administration of grazing allotments. Mr. Mandan said it was the superintendent's business to see that these allotments are not trespassed upon.

I am thinking of one Reservation in this region, the Crow Reservation, which has 3668 different allotments. Now, I think Mr. Mandan can imagine how many men it would take as line riders to be hired by the superintendent to check up on trespass on 3668 different allotments.

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It is very easy and very cheap to prevent trespass when you have one unit all under one control, but when you have it all broken up, like this picture on the blackboard, with the stockmen permitted to go into the squares which are marked, but not permitted to go into the area in the center, it would take hundreds of dollars just to administer the trespass on one unit. And, on all the Reservations in the country it would take thousands of dollars and probably even tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to take care of this trespassing, and that money would come from the Indians whether it was taken directly from tribal funds or from gratuity appropiations. Because the Government only has a certain amount of money it can spend, if it is spent on useless things it will mean there is that much less money to spend on things the Indians really want.

Another thing that we find happening on many of the Reser-
tions is that one Indian who has an allotment on which there is
water refuses to lease or grant a permit or put his allotment into
a permit unless he is given an exorbitant price. Now, as all of you
know, you can't run either sheep or cattle without water. So, on
this particular diagram I have shown here, if the two Indians
with the water holes I have depicted here, refuse to lease those
water holes or throw them into the permit for the whole unit,
then all the rest of the Indians on this unit, who may own a
thousand times as much land as these two men put together, will
be held up from leasing or granting permits on their land. This
is not a case that I am imagining. It is something that really
happens time and again.

Then there is still another point. It is much easier to run any-
thing in a business way if you run it altogther and at onec. You
can imagine what would happen in an automobile factory, for
instance, if each workman in the factory did just exactly what he
wanted to do without any reference to the other workmen. If the
factory, instead of being run as one unit, was run with each work-
man going about putting on a wheel or tightening a screw with-
out anybody directing the whole business, I don't think the fac-
tory would make very much money and I don't think many peo-
ple would want to ride in the car even though they were able to
buy it.

Mr. MARSHALL: (William Fire Thunder interpreting.) Well, it
is exactly the same way with running the business of a grazing
unit. If each part of the unit is run by a different person just the
way he wants it, it will make so much confusion that a cattle
man or a sheep man, who wants to lease it will not pay as much
money as they will when it all comes in as one unit. Now that is

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a point which we can also prove with figures. Now, perhaps the
most important reason, in my mind, anyway, why it is good, why
the present system of different allotments scattered over the In-
dian country is good, is the matter of Indians themselves going
into the stock business. As Mr. Collier mentioned, it is the desire
to encourage all the Indians to make use of their own range. I
think it can be said that the tribes having ranges have the most
satisfactory life and the most money for themselves, and the ones
who are actually using it. The Navaho out on a desert such as
most of you would consider absolutely impossible land to use,
have actually made better living than most of you have, and the
reason they have made that better living is that they have not
only gotten the lease from their land but they have also gotten
the money from their livestock which brings more money than
just range, and they have also raised food for their own use. Now
the reason that the Navaho got to this is because they have had
their range in solid lands. If each Indian who wanted to run stock
had to come to separate terms with allottees, the way they expect
the white stockmen to do on these Reservations, it would make the
situation so complicated that very few would go into the stock
business at all. We have a case—we have at least two cases in
this Northwest country where Indian allottees have refused to
lease their lands to Indian stockmen preferring to lease to white
stockmen. Yet I think it is everybody's desire here that the In-
dians should be given preference in the use of the range. The only
way that I can see that this can be done without interferring with
individual rights of allottees is to block the land up into units
that can be put up for one bid instead of depending on the good
will of the allottees some of which may have a grudge against
the particular allottee and not be willing to lease their land to him,
so for all these reasons I think that the present system has been
a failure and that a new system, which will block up the land for
the indian, which will make them more usable, which will give
them more money, more returns, and more satisfaction to the
Indian. (Applause.)

Mr. FRANK OHLERKING: (Fort Belknap Indian.) Now we have heard quite a little talk about range, and I would like to have Mr. Marshall explain what would happen where there is about one-third of the range within a unit which is needed by the Indians for their cattle and the remaining two-thirds of the range subject to lease to sheep, I do not care where they are from, but you cannot tell me that sheep and cattle can range on the same range, so if an Indian couldn't afford a fence, what protection would the Indians' cattle have on this unit?

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Mr. MARSHALL: The answer is, that the only adequate way to keep sheep and cattle separate is by putting up a fence and all the money spent for the useless administration of these broken up range units could then be spent to build that fence for the Indians.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: Now, my friends, I do not think that the seating capacity of this hall is very small, but very hard, but I would like to have Mr. Stewart, Chief of the Land Division, talk to you now for not longer than four minutes and thirty-two seconds.

Mr. STEWART: I am to address you about the land matter. Before doing so I would like to tell you of a little experience I had in the Southwest with a large group of Indians. I was to address this large group of Indians. There was a total in the neighborhood of 600. The meeting was held in the open air and the particular day it was raining very hard. There were four Superintendents and several more field men there. After they had gotten through addressing the Indians I found there was nothing left for me to say. I was in, or on, what is commonly known as a tough spot. Somewhat along the lines that I am now in. However, more from nervousness than from desperation I was fumbling with my watch chain and happened to pull my watch out and see the time. Thereupon I got up and made the shortest and most pleasing speech to Indians I think ever was made in that part of the country. I merely got up and said two words, and I say them to you now. Let's Eat.

(Applause and laughter.)

Mr. WOEHLKE: It is not that easy. You have got to listen to me first. I would like to ask the Sioux delegations tonight to postpone their meeting from 7:30 to 8:00 because there will be a small meeting in advance of the main meeting here, and then I want to warn you. If you read the papers, don't believe them. (Laughter.) The afternoon paper says that tomorrow's meeting will be held here and invites all the white people to come and meet with us. We will meet at the Civic Auditorium in Rapid City at two o'clock and I wish you would tell all your friends that the information in the papers is wrong, and that we will meet in the Civic Auditorium, and now I echo the sentiment of Mr. Stewart, and say, "Let's Eat."

Adjourned.

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## NIGHT SESSION

Special evening meeting of all Sioux Tribe delegates, convened at 8:00 p. m., March 3, 1934, called to order by Supt. James H. McGregor of the Pine Ridge Agency.

Mrs. Dumarce, delegate from Sisseton, the only woman delegate at the Congress, makes the following address to the special meeting.

Mrs. DUMARCE: My friends, I am unprepared I must say, but I want to tell you that it is an honor and I want to thank Mr. La-Point for saying, as he did.

We are here, my friends, on a question, and nothing like this has ever been brought to us people before. Now, let us think. This trap as Mr. Collier said, above our ankles; is it going to hit higher or are we going to step out of it completely? Let us think and think some more.

Mr. MCGREGOR: Now, some of you men have been asking for an opportunity to talk. The Commissioner says now is your time. Get up right now and ask the Commissioner some things, anything, or the thing that you are most worried about this question.

GEORGE WHITE BULL from Standing Rock: Mr. Chairman. We have such a good interpreter that I am going to say a few words. I wish to extend my appreciation to the Officials for all the good things that they have done for us.

But, in the middle there, there are some things that is detrimental to us and we fear them. Under the allotment system they have been after us for quite a number of years, using every means, employing fraud and deceit and eventually made us accept and go into the allotment system, under which we are now being governed. We believed in the allotment system as presented and we are now kind of getting accustomed to that way of being governed. All the officials are interested in the passage of the now proposed Bill or the new Bill, which contains some very good provisions in that Bill. Now, if, as a precaution and safeguard, if they will make a law guarding that Bill with a penalty of so many years imprisonment and a fine of so many dollars attached to anyone who violates or breaks up this Bill, annuls or voids this Bill, I believe that nobody shall attempt to break up this Bill. What I have reference to is the regulations governing the allotment system of which are now pas-

I believe that something is not very clear in our minds and that this, that the passage of the new Bill would in turn jeopardise our interests in some of the allotment and treaties that

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isolation. You understand of course that the Sioux Tribe is not the only tribe with claims against the Government. More than half of all the tribes are either prosecuting suits or asking authority to prosecute claims against the Government, and the Government is handling the matter in such a way that more than one hundred years will go by in the future before most of these claims are tried in court, and each year that goes by while the Government delays, means that your efforts are decreased and your judgment is cut down. This is one of the worst things about the Government Indian policy. You Indians of the Sioux Tribe are not suffering at all as much as many other Indians are suffering. You have obtained your jurisdictional half. You have been able to get competent lawyers to represent you and they are working for you. Your case is moving toward judgment with good prospects of a very good substantial victory for you. Most of the tribes have not even got their jurisdiction act yet, as our Assiniboin friends across the aisle here last year got a judgment in court and came out one million dollars in debt to the Government and nothing for themselves. Now, some of you, I believe, have read the hearings of the Senate Indian Committee. Some of you no doubt have those writings. If you possess them you will find one volume devoted to Indian claims against the Government. In that volume you will find the draft of a proposed bill for the final settlement of all Indian claims. The draft of that bill was prepared by Mr. Nathan Margold. Mr. Margold was the man who I wanted to have been made Commissioner of Indian Affairs this year. Instead of that he was made solicitor of the Department of the Interior. He now is the chief law official of the Interior Department and of the Indian Bureau. That Bill draft or something like it, will shortly be introduced as a departmental bill and pushed with all their energy in Congress, and it will enable all Indian tribes to get their day in court without delay, and will enable them to plead, not only breach of treaties of the Government, but violations of equity rights and moral rights by the Government, and it will limit the authority of the Government to plead what you call the off-sets. Incidentally, that same measure, if it is passed, will put your own case in a very much better position than it can be put by the jurisdictional act. We do not expect to be able to pass that Bill at this session of Congress. That Bill will be resisted by a great many interests. It will cost the Government, before it is finished, I wouldn't like to say how much because the newspaper men are here, what it would cost the Government. It will cost the Government so much that Mr. Douglas, Director of the Budget, would faint. We are going to stand for it because the Indians are

entitled to have their cases tried and settled. If the Government is subject to judgment, then the Government has no right to hide out and to keep the court from filing judgment. We have been asked in the House Indian Committee why we do not put these two things together, why we didn't take this plan of Government, land credit, and self-government and put them in one bill with this other thing that would bring all these claims to judgment, and our answer is very simple. This Bill we have got before you is a big mouthful, and if we threw it into the Omnibus court of claims bill, then it will choke us to death. There must be relief for the Indians in the matter of their lands. We must get credit for the Indian and we do not want to tie that down to the general claims bill. I anticipate that if we succeed in getting relief in the matter of their land and credit and so on that year then the battle-ground in Government will be this claim matter.

But to take them both on at the same time and as a part of one bill would be too heroic, it is too much, we couldn't get away with it.

Now, what I earnestly hope is that you will not take the position that because we can't right every wrong in one bill, therefore we ought not to right any wrong but ought to leave them all as they are. Don't mix up the two things which are settled and thereby confuse both of them.

There is one very real connection between this proposed Bill that we are discussing and your claim. One real connection, and it has to do with what will happen to your judgement after it is paid to you. Maybe you think, "We Sioux are going to get $100,000,000 net," and that is a lot of money. But, I have told you today how the Government, without the consent of the Indians has misappropriated more than that much Indian trust money since 1900. If you just take one tribe of Indians alone; the Osage Tribe in Oklahoma. Since 1915, $245,000,000 has been paid into the Tribal fund of the Osage Tribe; $245,000,000. And do you know how much of that is gone already; thrown away, eaten up, wasted? $220,000,000 of that is gone. If you want to find out how it went, get the issue of Collier's Weekly that is on the stands right now and you will read all about how the Osage tribal fund has been misappropriated, or ask Mr. Henry Roe Cloud; he will tell you about it. Now, if this Bill becomes law, this Bill we are discussing at this Congress, and then if you Sioux Indians go ahead under the Bill and take your charters and then, if you get your judgement from the Court of Claims, then not a dollar of that money can be spent by the Government except with your consent. You can protect your fund from misappropriation. Under existing law you would

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be powerless to protect your tribal fund from misappropriation. That is the only connection that this Bill would have with your claim. (Change of interpreters.) I may say, that all of the Indians, in the matter of their tribal funds, are at present defenseless under existing law. There is one exception which we obtained last May. There is one group of tribes who are protected in their tribal funds. Last May the Pueblo Tribes of New Mexico were able to get a law through Congress which requires the consent of these tribes before any of their tribal money can be used. No other tribe has that protection. This Bill, which we deal with, extends that protection to all of the tribes. Now, I am very anxious for us to understand one another about the relation of this Bill to you Sioux and to Indian treaty rights and to Indian claims generally. It is very important that we understand each other. If my understanding is incorrect, if I have not stated the matter correctly or if there is disagreement, I am very anxious to have it brought out now, so that I would like to yield the floor either to any of you or to your Attorney who is here tonight.

A GENTLEMAN RISES: Mr. Chairman. There is one thing I want to ask you.

INTERPRETER: There is a question as to who had the floor first.

Mr. McGREGOR: I will recognize Mr. Oliver Prue from Rosebud.

Mr. OLIVER PRUE: There is a thing that I want to question in regard to this petition, but before I make any statement I want to make a general statement on it. From times gone by, the Secretary of the Interior has been empowered with authority to act and to do as he pleases in all matters relating to Indians. We are selected as delegates to come to this Congress and listen on both sides of the question and thresh out the matters and try to understand it thoroughly and then without taking any action on our part, to take the case home, back to the people whom we represent. Therefore, it is believed, those being the conditions under which we came, if it is just a little matter of local concern right at this meeting that the whole Congress is requested to act on, our delegation is not at liberty to take part even in that case.

Last night, our Attorney, Major Case, gave us a nice talk and he complimented Mr. Collier, the Commissioner, on the character of the man and his sincerity in everything and his earnest desire to do something worth while for our people, and we also, our Rosebud Delegation, believe with Mr. Case.

From past experience in years gone by, we have come to learn to distrust all Government officials that come out here to negative

tiate with our people and we really have been fooled so many times, time and again, that we just simply distrust every Government official that came out here, however true they may be. (Applause.)

We have listened to Mr. Collier for two days now and he has presented some very good material for us to listen to, but we have had so much experience in the past and even right now, maybe one matter brought up sounds good, looks good, and pleasant to hear about, etc., and yet we hear another thing again and then another thing. The matter has been passed along like a basket-ball. Thrown from one player to another until we don't know what it is.

On page 31, line 6, there is matter that he wants to ask a question about. He says that it is a mouthful and we cannot swallow it. That is, from the fact that our property will be exempt from taxes—we ought to be able to swallow it. From this very reason it is harder for us to swallow it and we would like to have Mr. Collier explain that if he can. And we would like to have Mr. Collier explain said section of this Bill and we would also appreciate it if Major Case would give his legal opinion on this question.

Mr. COLLIER: It is going to take us the rest of the evening, I am afraid.

SAM LAPOINTE, Rosebud: Mr. Commissioner, I was just going to take up this subject myself. I think it is a very good point. We had the understanding from the Chairman when he announced tonight that we were going to meet here tonight and the Sioux were going to be given a chance to talk and most of them are gone and I think this is the desire and opinion of the majority here tonight. We came here with the hope that you would read those questions that came from the Sioux delegates and you would answer them tonight.

CHARLEY RAMSEY, Standing Rock: We are all delegates to this Congress and I am one of the delegates from Fort Yates. We have taken particular care in choosing the tribal councilman and I am the chairman of that council, and if I see things running in this manner in any of my meetings I am going to talk. One thing I want to know is whether the people on the outside of the delegation assembled here have any voice in this meeting. I want an answer to my question right away so I can go home and go to bed.

Mr. COLLIER: Yes, they can ask questions and make remarks, although the meeting is primarily, of course, for your business council. If there were going to be any voting each delegation would do his own voting or not vote, as it preferred to do. Do you want your questions read and then answered?

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Mr. McGREGOR: The question is—do you want your questions answered right now, or do you want to talk?

FRANCIS RED TOMAHAWK, Standing Rock Delegate: I noticed during the proceedings of this meeting the method used in running this council—personally, to me, I do not like it. For this reason—I realize the chairman is trying to hold us down to the subject in order to prevent backwardness from the subject—that I realize. And yet the explanation of the Bill in question—various titles which were discussed at this stage, the majority of the delegates are not fully acquainted with and hence do not want to commit themselves in any form, no matter how mild it is. I noticed during the conference that questions submitted were laid on the table and we do not know what was put on the table. If we are going to act intelligently for our constituents at home we want to be fully informed of everything that is on that table. It is for that very reason our delegations have a number of questions all prepared before we came down here and we have, since coming here, picked up some more which would be supplementary to the original questions prepared for explanation. We are not pre-judiced against the plan of changing from the old system to a new system. We came here with an open mind; we want to listen to everything—we have no bias whatsoever and upon the explanation given and upon the attitude taken by the majority of the delegates attending this council we want to base our best judgment on that before we act. Now I ask that we be permitted to read these questions into the record and become a part of the record.

Mr. COLLIER: Do you refer to the questions I have here, or the questions you have with you.

Mr. RED TOMAHAWK: All the questions we have at this time. It is requested that the Commissioner answer these questions at this time.

Mr. FOSTER THUNDER: This is not the original council that is supposed to meet so I object to the questions asked which are upon the table for the reason that the council is not fully represented, that is why I object.

Mr. COLLIER: Many of the questions will be answered as we go along. We have not got an unlimited amount of time and sometimes one question overlaps another and in that way we will do nothing else until adjournment. I also point out that we have been answering these questions right along. Here we have for example, the Pine Ridge list of questions. "We want your frank statement of the Bill in its relation to our tribal claims." That is the answer as fully as I can answer it, and as we go along we find that many of them have been answered.

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Now, at the moment I can't find those questions concerning Tomahawk. They have not been answered. Now we should know whether you want us to go ahead answering questions, or what you do want for the meeting this evening.

Mr. JOE IRVING of Fort Thompson, South Dakota: It has been announced by the chairman, he said we were going to have a meeting in the City Auditorium, and I understood him to say that we were going to do all the talking and that you fellows are going to do the listening. If that is the case I will save my speech until tomorrow. I want to make a motion that the written questions on the table be read and answered.

Mr. McGREGOR: It has been moved by Joe Irving of Fort Thompson, S. Dak., that the questions on the table be read and answered tonight. Is there a second to that motion?

Motion seconded by Mr. Frank Wilson of Pine Ridge, S. Dak.

Mr. McGREGOR: You have heard the question, all in favor of the question hold up your right hand. (Majority hold up right hands.)

Contrary—a few. Motion is carried.

Mr. McGREGOR: Let me just say this, let us get down to the meat of this meeting and not stray away from the questions. The Commissioner is our Commissioner tonight.

First Question, ROSEBUD: Commissioner Collier said that the Government should give back to the Indian 20 per cent of the hundred million dollars admittedly misappropriated since 1900, meaning tribal funds. Why not give back the full 100 per cent?

ANSWER: Yes.

ROSEBUD QUESTION: Suppose the Bill passes and title 3, the land title, becimes law, so that the land becomes tribal, then suppose that some Secretary of the Interior refuses to grant any charters, would not then the control of the use of the land be completely in the Government?

ANSWER: In such an event, the control over the use of all Indian lands would be completely in the Government in exactly the way that the control of tribal land is now in the Government. However, such action by the Secretary of the Interior, who we will say, refuses to grant any charters, would be a violation of the act itself. The Act expressly declares what the policy of Congress is. Do not stop to read the first three pages but you will find it all there. The Act expressly sets up the procedure for issuing charters. The initiative is put in the Indians themselves. If in the event the Secretary refuses to issue a charter after the tribe has asked for it, he must issue a written explanation why he refused and trans-

76

mit that to Congress. I also point out that the first lines of this question presume something which may not be the case.

**ROSEBUD QUESTION:** Suppose the Bill passes, title 3 becomes law, so that all the land becomes tribal?

**ANSWER:** On a basis of transfer and relinquishments being voluntary the land would not become tribal until the Indians made it so. They would organize their chartered communities before they transferred title, and then the chartered community would have the power and not the Secretary.

**ROSEBUD QUESTION:** How much Indian land remains unsold of whites? This refers to ceded and surplus lands.

**ANSWER:** We do not know. These ceded lands are under the jurisdiction of the general land office. That office has not yet compiled statistics so we can't give them to you. This Bill would direct that all of this information be compiled by the Secretary and they would have to provide the money to do it.

**COMMISSIONER COLLIER:** Rosebud Again. "Who determines what is the fair value of land which is in a community; that is, a consolidated area, and which is to be exchanged for non-communal that is for individual land. Suppose the Indian thinks the value placed on the land is not a fair value, what then?"

Then he does not make the exchange until he has satisfied himself that it is a fair value. The matter could be referred to an arbitration board; between an arbitration board to settle the thing between the community and the Indian. If compulsory transfer were kept in the law and then the Indian felt that he was not getting fair value, the courts would arbitrate; the Court of Indian Affairs.

I am getting away from Rosebud now for a minute. There is a lot more Rosebud yet, but I will jump around. Here is one I don't know where it is from, but not Rosebud.

"Should the Indians be disfranchised if they are to adopt the self-government principle?"

I do not see why that follows at all. The Indians are citizens of the United States and as such they are entitled to vote and the fact that they take over partial or complete self-government in their own business is no reason why they should not vote in the elections.

That same question goes on, "Isn't it a fact that our troubles on the Indian Reservation begin when politics enters?"

I do not know, but down in Washington we hear that there is lots of politics in there already. (Laughter.)

Now we have come to Sisseton. This is a very practical question "An Indian who has made his home on a trust allotment; has

made much improvement on his allotment, wants to continue to live as he has. He does not want to go into the community area and he wants his children to enjoy the ownership of his land with all of the improvements after his death. Will the Secretary of the Interior ignore this man's good intentions by virtue of the Wheeler Bill and compel him to submission?"

That is a question that might be raised from any Reservation where there are allotted Indians. Now, without stopping now to again analyze Title three, I will just answer the question. This Indian described in this question, under the new plan, would continue to occupy his land if he wanted to, and his heirs would occupy that land if they wanted to. He would own his improvements and his heirs would inherit his improvements. That would be true even with the compulsory transfer feature kept in the law. If the compulsory feature be taken out of the Bill, then he would do whatever he wants to. Mr. Stewart reminds me that I want to explain here again that suppose the heirs do not want the improvements and do not want to live on that land, then they will be entitled to the value of the improvements. They can sell it, and they are entitled to the rental value or the use of either this land or any equivalent amount of land anywhere else, if they prefer.

**A VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE:** Mr. Collier, supposing the community did not want those improvements?

**Mr. COLLIER:** Well, if a fellow has got something he wants to sell and nobody will buy it, he is out of luck.

Now, we jump to Pine Ridge. There is a whole series of questions here of which I have already read No. 1, about the claims Bill, and whether this Bill effects it. The second one relates peculiarly to your Sioux situation. The English of this is not clear, so I will just read you the sense. The question is, "What is going to happen to the matter of Sioux Benefits if this Bill passes?"

The Sioux Benefit, as I understand the law, is a payment made under treaty. It is a curious thing because it has been so worked out that the benefit, which is a payment in money, goes to the allotted Sioux Indian when and if that Indian reaches a certain age. I believe it is 18 years, isn't it?

**ANSWER:** Yes.

**Mr. COLLIER:** Now the question is this. It is a very practical one. Your allotted young person who has got an allotment, if that young person should relinquish his or her allotment, does that destroy his or her claim to the Benefit?

I am subject here to correction by the lawyers. I believe that it is necessary in order to protect these Sioux Benefits to adopt legislation expressly protecting them. I think it is a matter on which

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we ought to have the opinion of your lawyers. This is the question, as to whether the pending Sioux Benefit would be endangered in the event that allotments became relinquished to the community and if so, whether we do not need to amend the Bill or pass supplemental legislation.

Mr. CASE: Sioux Benefits, my friends, are payable under section 17 of the Act of March 2, 1889, only to those people who were living on the date when the President authorized allotments to be made on each Reservation. Now, those children that were born after the President ordered the allotments to be made were not even entitled to allotment under the act of '89. Now, all of your Reservations had a good deal of land, well, say in 1900 up to 1906. And all of our people came to the Congress and asked the Congress to open up, make allotments to the new born children, and by the act of May 29, 1908, it was provided that the land remaining on the Reservations should be allotted as long as the land lasted, and the allotments went right on from that time and the Government seemed to think that the new-born children, when they got an allotment, that they were entitled to Sioux Benefits.

It took until 1925 until the Comptroller General stopped it, to find out that the Government was wrong in paying you Sioux Benefits, and then your attorneys went to the Congress and asked them to pass an act that would authorize the payment of Sioux Benefits to these new-born children, and that became the act of May 21, 1928. Now, you see, there are two kinds of Sioux Benefits. The old timers—1889 allottees are one kind, and 1928 is another kind. Now, the 1889 Sioux Benefits are part of the contract made by the United States and Sioux Tribes for the cession of the land between the Cheyenne River and the White River, known as the Crooks Treaty, and that belongs to you and some of you old timers and some of the old men haven't got it yet, but we have got part of them since we started this fight. Young Eagle, stand up; How many did you get on Standing Rock?

ANSWER: Something over 134.

Major Case: All right. 134. We got 134 on Standing Rock. We haven't got through yet, so I tell you, there is nothing in this Bill as far as I can see it that changes it except this. There will be no more allotments and that only affects Cheyenne River.

Mr. CASE: Now I could talk to you all night about Sioux Benefits, I could talk to you all night on that one subject—and I have been laying to catch the Commissioner of Indian Affairs so I could tell him what I wanted to say about Sioux Benefits, but I will wait until I get him in Washington. I do not want to take up the time to talk to you about it and to talk to him about it here; now.

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FIRE THUNDER, Pine Ridge: The question he wants to submit to you is the payment of the Sioux Benefits under the 1928 act, whether or not the funds used will not be taken out of the claims.

Mr. CASE: No. Not unless they have a better man on the other side, on this law suit.

FIRE THUNDER, Pine Ridge: The reason I asked the question is because some information has been received whereby the Government paid the Sioux Benefits as a loan to the tribe to be deducted from funds that may have accrued from judgment of our claims.

Mr. CASE: No, that is not so. The act of May 21, 1928, simply says—the Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized to continue making payments of Sioux Benefits to children allotted under section 19, under the Act of May 29, 1908. It simply says he can go ahead and do it.

Mr. FIRE THUNDER, Pine Ridge: Is this money appropriated, or is it taken from the United States Treasury.

Mr. CASE: From the United States Treasury.

Mr. COLLIER: I am going to read the question which seem to be the most important. Will all monies appropriated for counting off division of this Bill be chargeable to the Indians, to be reimbursed from tribal funds?

No. All of the appropriations are gratuitous, except that where money is provided for scholarship for young Indians—One half of that money is a loan—as a gift. It is loaned to the individual Indian. How much land would be purchased for landless Indians under the proposed amount of two million?

If each family of four were to receive eighty acres of this agricultural land then there would be two thousand families put on the land each year.

Mr. COLLIER continues:—could each be provided with 80 acres of agricultural land?

Here are two questions almost identical, one from Pine Ridge and one from Rosebud. I will read the Rosebud question. With respect to section 13-b, title one, what is the meaning of the word Reservation?

ANSWER: I find that Mr. Stewart makes a note that this was answered this morning.

PINE RIDGE QUESTION: Clarify the intended boundary lines for a Reservation in an Indian community, in the case where a county has been thrown open for settlement and homestead purposes and the county has been organized, and where there are vested rights therein, fee patented land, or white owned land subject to taxation?

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ANSWER: I think I will ask Mr. Stewart to answer that question.

Mr. STEWART: In a situation of that kind, it will be our plan under the consolidation and acquisition program outlined in the Bill to acquire or reacquire some of that alienated land, fee patented land, if it is feasible to block it out for Indian purposes, and also if it is desirable to block it out. If on the other hand it is not needed or desired for Indian purposes, we will of course not attempt to obtain it. Therefore, the county jurisdiction over the land will remain undisturbed. If, however, we do acquire it, county jurisdiction would cease.

Mr. RALPH H. CASE: May I have the floor a minute to explain what is in the minds of these delegates? Everybody knows that the Act of March 2, 1889, laid down the boundary lines of the several Sioux Reservation in court. Since that time, quite a number of counties have been opened up and sold out and the jurisdiction and the law over those counties has been turned over to the State. Not every body moved out of that county. Hence Bennett County with a number of Indians living in there, and the same is true of Gregory County, Tripp County, Corson County, Melett and Ziebach counties. Now, what is the status of those living in those open counties where the jurisdiction has been ceded by the county over to the state. Residence is an essential factor in that matter. In the Act of 1913 all of the surplus land on Standing Rock was opened up for sale and settlement. Is Standing Rock a Reservation now? A little simple amendment that would lay down the boundaries of the Reservations as fixed by the Act of March 2, 1889 as Reservations within the minimum of this Bill would correct this situation. I am answering my own question. (Speech interpreted by Robert High Eagle.)

Mr. STEWART: I would like to further go into that matter as to whether that open land is Reservation or is it not. This morning you recall that the undisposed of open land in Indian territory remains undisturbed. That was a ruling by the Supreme Court of the United States laid down in a Crow case of a similar nature in connection with the Ash Sheep Company case. Therefore, there is a dual jurisdiction of control over those lands, in this respect, the Federal Government has control over the undisposed of surplus land. The state laws prevail as to the disposed of land. Now then, as to a white man living within one of these areas that we may consolidate who refuses to remove or sell to the Indians, we would have no control and there is nothing I know of that could be done to force him out. Does that cover the general situation?

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INTERPRETER: Mr. Chairman: If you please, it is now quarter of eleven and no matter how strong the Camel's back is, if you put one more straw on that Camel's back, it will break that Camel's back. Mr. Collier may be able to stand it because he is a strong man, but we are not.

Mr. McGREGOR: It is proposed that we adjourn.

Mr. FRANK WILSON, Pine Ridge Agency: I would like to have that question answered. If you do not answer my question—that question is my question before the house—I will not be able to sleep tonight. There have been a lot of important things put through here and that is a very important question and we want it answered. It involves lots of Indians. It will exclude about 1500 Indians because we are not inside of the Reservation jurisdiction according to your program.

Mr. COLLIER: Let me answer that question, and see if I can answer it. The way it is now on the Reservation all over the Indian country there are areas of land that once were solid Indian areas and now there are white people here and there among them. Now what is the jurisdiction of the Federal Government now? First, it has the exclusive jurisdiction over that land where the title is in the Government or is in the Indian held in trust by the Government. Jurisdiction over the Indian as a ward Indian under the Constitutional laws as to relations with Indians, how is this Government to regulate relations with Indians? What a white man does on his own land that is not under the Government. What he does now within the Reservation, he is under the State Courts, but, if he does something on his own land that affects an Indian, it may come under the Federal courts and if he sells liquor to an Indian, he can be prosecuted under the Federal laws for selling liquor to an Indian. Now, under this Bill it would be actually the same as it is now. A great deal of Reservation land would never be organized under an Indian community. The Indians might not want to organize as a chartered community, and again if their land is scattered out too far from one another, they can't organize as a chartered community. If they do organize as a chartered community, then they exercise the powers of self-govern ment, laid down in the Bill. Its powers cannot be greater than the powers of the Federal Government exercises, and those powers of the Federal Government are exercised in all Indian country regardless of whether Indian communities exist or not, but it is not the power of the Federal Government to extend its control over the fee patented land owned by white men in or out of an Indian community.

And, therefore, it is the white people of Dakota need not fear

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that the Indians are going to eat them alive. I do not know
whether I have yet answered it. All that is Reservation land re-
mains Reservation land. Any new land to which the Government
secures title becomes Reservation land under the Federal Govern-
ment. That Reservation land is just as much Reservation if it is
not under an Indian community as if it is under an Indian com-
munity, and in addition, the Government's power reaches to the
Indian himself in so far as he is injured by things done on white
owned land, and can protect him. No bill can go beyond consti-
tutional limits. The Federal Government can not assert a power
that it does not possess, and it does not have power over land that
it does not own or control, where white people are living, and we
can't give that power to the Government and the Government
can not give it to an Indian community.

ANTOINE DEROCKBRAINE from Standing Rock: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask one question while we are on this subject in regard to this land. Now, under the Act of 1908, all land was thrown open for settlement and on the land that is still remaining not taken by homestead within that area of land or territory, there is section 16 and 36 out of each township sold to the State of South Dakota for $2.50 an acre by the Government. What would we do to get that land in case of a community organization within that area of unsettled portion.

Mr. COLLIER: You would have to buy it. It could not be taken back. You would have to buy it back.

Mr. MCGREGOR: Meeting adjourned.

Sunday, March 4, 1934

AFTERNOON SESSION

The session was opened at 2:15 P. M., by Mr. Woehlke, at the
Civic Auditorium at Rapid City, South Dakota.

Mr. WOEHLKE: Friends, we would like to open this session of the Congress with an invocation by the Reverend Doctor Henry Roe Cloud.

Invocation by Dr. Roe Cloud.

Mr. WOEHLKE: As I stated yesterday, at this session of the
Congress we have come here to listen, to hear from you. Time,
unfortunately, is very short because today this auditorium will be
in use again at 6:00 p. m., and we have to wind up by that time.
I shall call on the various delegations from the different Reser-

I shall call on the various delegations from the different Reser-
vations to have one member of that delegation express unofficially
and wholly informally what he and his fellow members of the
deblegation think of either the various phases of the proposed
program or of the program as a whole. As there are eighteen dele-
gations it is absolutely necessary to limit the time given to each
deblegation so that we may give all of them a chance to express
their opinions. Now, a simple problem in arithmetic will show you
what has to be done. Eighteen delegations, with ten minutes for
each one, means a hundred eighteen minutes or three hours. We
have about three and a half hours at our disposal. Therefore, the
Chair must insist that the remarks of the spokesman for each
deblegation be limited to ten minutes, including the interpreta-
tions, though by agreement between two or three delegations they
may nominate one spokesman who would have the combined time
of the two or three.

Before we begin this presentation of the views, I would like to
call on Commissioner Collier for a brief restatement of the gener-
ral objectives and purposes of the new program, but I must limit
him to not more than twenty minutes. I, therefore, call on the
Commissioner who will speak and take not more than twenty
minutes, but before he begins I would like to ask whether you
have made arrangements for interpreters.

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Mr. COLLIER: Where is the Sioux interpreter? Will you be ready to interpret? (Sioux interpreter, William Fire Thunder.)

I am not going to repeat things that we have been saying for the last two days. I would like to add to what the Chairman has said, this statement. We shall be in session tomorrow morning, afternoon, and if necessary, at night. There will be time for all necessary discussions tomorrow about any question. Therefore, those who may arise today in order to speak, should not feel that they are being called on for any final expression or any verdict that they can't change tomorrow.

To the white friends who are here and not at the other meetings, I will merely explain that the Indians at this Congress are studying a proposal by the Administration in connection with their land and their self-government. This proposal is embodied in a Bill that has been introduced into Congress. The Bill is still being improved and when it is finally enacted, it will embody the wishes of the Indians themselves. The general purposes being sought I will state in a few words. We want to stop the continued loss of the land by Indians. We want to provide new land for Indians who have lost their land and who desire to farm or grow stock on lands of their own. We want to make it possible for the Indians to get their land into condition for the best use. We want to supply the necessary capital so that the Indians can restock their land and buy the necessary implements and build homes and generally can put their life on a model basis. We expect that this result can be obtained while giving complete protection to each Indian who has got property.

In addition, we want laws which will permit the Indians to organize for self-help and mutual aid, and to take part in the management of the Indian Bureau, itself. Now, in the discussions of the last two days, it has been made clear that everybody is agreed that the present situation is bad. The difficult part has been to build up a clear picture of the new plan and how it will work. In order that we can make that picture a little more clear than it is now, I shall ask the permission of the Chair to allow me to give the balance of my time to one of the Indians from the Fort Belknap Reservation in order that he may tell apout the Stock Association that is now being carried on up there. That will convey a picture of what sort of thing we are aiming at in general.

Mr. WOEHLKE: Will, the delegate from Fort Belknap come here and take the balance of the Commissioner's time, 7 minutes? He may also take his own delegation's time in addition if he so desires. (Applause.)

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Mr. KING of Fort Belknap, Montana: Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentleman. Our Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Mr. Collier, has requested me to devote the rest of his time, which was allowed him, to tell about the stock organization which is organized on our Reservation of Fort Belknap, Montana.

We have approximately 500,000 acres of grazing land on the Fort Belknap Reservation and we have a little less than 1,200 individual allotments, and we have eighteen grazing range units in that area. Out of these 18 units, two are leased by the Stock Association of the members of the Fort Belknap Reservation.

These lands are all allotted and some of the members of the stock association happen not to have their particular allotment in this range unit but have their allotments in some other unit. In order to work this out, a member of the stock association has so many head of cattle running inside this range unit. Maybe his land would be in another range unit somewhere. It requires record keeping as to how many acres this man has in another range unit, and we collect the rentals from that unit and apply it to the range unit where he keeps his cattle. This requires a lot of individual work because it requires the land description of the individual's land and of it is subdivided, it requires more land descriptions to describe the exact acreage, and the money collected is applied to the land where the cattle are grazed. After this is all done, then the man that has land in this Indian range unit but does not have any cattle in it would be able to get his rentals.

This stock association was organized something like two years ago and the members had so many cattle in there. In order to comply with the regulations of the Government, it was necessary to comply with the carrying capacity of the range—so many acres per head—so as to protect the grazing range and not overstock it. The first year we had to take in some other cattle that did not belong—we took them from off the Reservation—and filled in the carrying capacity in full so as to pay for the lands there. Last year we introduced approximately over 300 head of cattle from the outside so as to fill in the requirements of this unit.

This year there were some applications came in from the outside from some cattlemen who wanted to bring their cattle in and have them run on the association range but we told them we could not bring them in as we wanted to use the whole range ourselves this year.

We have this range unit fenced up and the way we take care of the expense is by assessing each man so much per head, so as to defray the expenses of the fence.

We assess enough so as to take care of the man who is fence

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rider and the man who rides through the range and sees that the cattle are alright and sees that the range is taken care of. Next year we will have to take additional land it will require quite a bit of land to run the increase for next year. Mr. Chairman—I asked the Chairman if it would be all right to go ahead and tell the way our delegation from Fort Belknap feel about this land policy and he asked me to go right ahead and tell about that too. Well, I have only five minutes left so I will make it short, as short as I can. Mr. Collier and his staff have been trying to tell us how this new policy will work and we have been listening very carefully and closely and in viewing it from the standpoint of our situation on that Reservation we discussed the matter among the Council and we believe it is a good thing for our Reservation to adopt this land policy. (Applause.) Our Reservation is all under trust yet up to this time and there are four patent in fee lands on our Reservation. The mortgage has been foreclosed on two of them and the Indians got their money all spent and they have no land. And we feel that from other Reservations, this also has been going on since the allotment system has been carried on, most of the Reservations in other states, even in our state, we hear that their lands have all been gone through which is like this patent in fee land that I spoke of on our Reservation. We could see that this new policy will not hurt us at all, and hereafter instead of hurting us it will add to what we got and it will protect what we got, so we are glad to hear that we have a Commissioner now that is willing to come out and protect our lands and our delegation from Fort Belknap, Montana, is willing to accept this land policy.

Mr. WOEHLKE: The Fort Belknap delegation has now used up its time. I shall now begin to call on the other delegates in alphabetical order and the first I shall call upon is the Blackfeet Delegation.

Mr. BROWN, Chairman, Blackfeet Delegation: The part that the Blackfeet delegation has taken in this meeting; and the part that a portion of the Blackfeet delegation took in some more of this same kind of meetings in Washington; our part in this, has been that of a good listener, trying to learn what we can and trying to figure out whether this is a good thing for our people or not. In the most part of this Bill we are in favor of it, and I believe that if we can get together with some of the Bureau officials to work over the objectionable features that we have we are not so far apart. Our Reservation is getting so now that it is so checkered with white settlers that it looks like a man with the small pox. I want to take this opportunity to express publicly

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our sincere and heartfelt sympathy for the way our new Commissioner and those of his staff have treated this delegation while in Washington. Notwithstanding rumors that naturally go about the country the Blackfeet have every faith and confidence in our new Commissioner, and it is just too bad that our law permits a Commissioner to be appointed according to political affiliations. (Applause.) because, since we have one in there now that we have faith in, it is just too bad that we can't keep him there so that with his new program he can see it through and follow it up. I thank you for your attention. (Applause.)

Mr. WOEHLKE: I am learning that a great many things can be said in less than ten minutes. The next delegation to speak will be the Cheyenne River delegation.

VOICE FROM AUDIENCE: Mr. Chairman, just a minute. I would like to ask you, your honor, if this meeting is confined to delegations or for open public discussion. I object, before this is open for public discussion I object to any acceptance of this Bill of any delegation confined to this meeting.

Mr. WOEHLKE: (Repeatedly.) You are out of order. You shall have an opportunity for public discussion later in the meeting.

GENTLEMAN: (Ignoring the Chair.) This is the first time my voice has been heard in this hall. This thing is being carried out in too much autocratic manner and I am not going to stand for it. I am not going to be the victim of this Bill and I am entitled to a voice as a citizen of the United States and I am going to have it. I object. I solemnly object to any acceptance of this Bill that is being requested by Wheeler of Montana, and I am an Indian and I am not going to put up with any confinement of speech. I realize that I am out of order but I reserve right of voice. (Applause.)

Mr. WOEHLKE: I want to insist that this is an expression of opinion on the part of various individuals and delegations which is not binding on them or anyone else. It is an unofficial expression of opinion.

Mr. LUKE GILBERT, Chairman of Cheyenne River Reservation Delegation: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Commissioner, Official Staff, ladies and gentleman: I represent the Cheyenne River Sioux Indians as their Chairman and I am also a member of the delegation who are here.

(Voice from audience asks for speaker's name—Mr. Woehlke gives name.)

We have been here now for two days listening and trying to get the true meaning and understanding of the Bill in question. The

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Cheyenne River Sioux Indians believe that this Bill has greatly affected them in this way. We have and still retain a vast area of tribal lands, somewhere in the neighborhood of 250,000 acres which is subject to allotment as well as the individual land holdings of the allottees.

We think we know our problems and the conditions under which we live on the Cheyenne River Reservation. We do not want an improved administration that covers health and educational facilities and other things that go with it.

We feel as though this Bill, while it may be of benefit to some reservations, will not be of much benefit to the Cheyenne River Reservation as far as land holdings are concerned. As I said before, we think we know our problems; we know what to ask for; we know what we want.

After getting the understanding of this Bill, the Cheyenne River delegation will take these views back to their people and leave it to their people to decide.

Mr. WOEHLKE: My friends: Perhaps there is an apprehension and mistaken impression in the minds of some of you, especially of the gentleman who arose and spoke out of turn a little while ago. We are not asking for a vote of any delegation for or against the Bill now. We are merely asking the spokesmen of the various delegations to tell us what they think about the Bill and what is right or wrong with it.

I would now like to have the spokesman for the Crow delegation step forward. Following the Crow delegation, the Crow Creek delegation will speak.

Mr. HARRY WHITE MAN, Crow Reservation: Mr. Chairman, Honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs and Members of the Commissioner's Staff, fellow members of the Indian Race: Once an Assistant Commissioner of Indian Affairs called me the most ungrateful Indian in the United States.

I said that because I was trying to voice the sentiment of my people before the Senate Committee of Indian Affairs.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Whiteman, please step forward so the crowd can hear you.

Mr. WHITE MAN: We admire and we respect the present Commissioner of Indian Affairs for his endeavors to try to place the Indians upon a stable basis. In spite of our respect for him I want to say that when I was recently at Washington I was told that the Commissioner's heart was in this Bill, but I want to tell you that I also have a heart and that heart is the welfare of my people. I believe that we have come to the road where it forks off.

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Today we are confronted with the fact that among the wise men that tried to shape the destiny of the Indians and one of the most brilliant Senators the policy of the Indian Office toward Indians was adopted and pursued for the last 47 years. Those people who launched this policy said that the Reservation system was a vicious system. Our present Commissioner of Indian Affairs says that the allotment system is a vicious system. President Roosevelt said that he was going to give us a new deal, and the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, I believe, is an advocate of the new deal. I do not want to go home and keep mum about the sentiment of my people regarding this legislative program that is brought before us. If the President and the Commissioner are sincere in giving us a new deal all that I ask in behalf of my people is to give us something to say about the shaping of this Bill and not try to cram down our throat something that we do not like. The Commissioner of Indian Affairs told us that there were a bunch of wicked and vicious laws affecting the Indians and I want to say that we did not have a chance to say anything about the making of those laws. If you people who are drafting this Bill will give every Tribe of the United States a chance to voice their opinion and desires in the shaping of these Bills and a three-fourths vote is taken by every tribe of the United States when this legislation is made, then we will certainly be for it, otherwise we will not.

Mr. Chairman, if I have any more time left, let Max Big Man take that time.

Mr. MAX BIG MAN: Mr. Chairman, the Northern Cheyenne Indians, which is a neighboring friend of ours has elected Mr. White Man as our spokesman for this time.

Mr. WHITE MAN: I want to thank my neighboring Cheyenne friend for giving me this time. I realize the fact that my neighbor-ing tribe, the Cheyenne, who are adjacent to our Reservation has had a great difficulty in getting their allotments made. After the allotments were made, then comes the new program. A new program as I see it takes away from us initiative and private ownership, that we all desire so much to possess. It takes away from us the spirit of independence so essential and so badly needed by the members of the Indian race. Unless this Bill is made vol-untarily I believe the Crow Indians and Cheyenne will fight this Bill to the last measure, and, if necessary, call on our con-stitutional rights which says that no person shall be deprieved of their right and due process of law for Government. I believe the adopting of this Bill should be voluntary on the part of the Indians and if an Indian wants it, let him have it, and if he does not want, he does not have to have it.

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Now, Mr. Chairman, if I have any time left I would like to have
Mr. Big Man take the balance of my time.

Mr. SHEPARD: You have five minutes left. I will give the balance of the time to Mr. Big Man.

Mr. MAX BIG MAN from Crow Agency: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner and Staff and my American friends. I am very happy to be here in your presence. I want to tell our Great White Father that if my spokesman step on their toes a little bit they will have to excuse us because he is a Democrat. (Applause.) I want to tell my people that I have recently visited Washington, D. C., the home of our Great Father, and he is a real white man. (Applause.) His heart is good, and he gives an opportunity to his children, among some refuse to take it whether it is good or not. (Applause.) It may be so whether the plan is work now, but we want him to excuse us when we refuse. If it is for the wrong and if any of the Tribes refuse it I think it will make a man of them. It takes competition and big knocks to make a man. So, it is rather hard as a step that I made to learn to eat the white man's food. Now, you take me, I dress in my Indian clothes, but the progress that I make is on account of my parents. I now have push my children ahead and I can not live in a community and live altogether away from my white friends. Now, only a little bit more and as I learn the white man's way I have learned to talk a lot, and which I want to say again, as lot of people in their speeches when they repeat the speech they always take it wrong, but among our people we always repeat in our speech, and I want to ask the Commissioner and his staff if they step on their toes a little bit to excuse us just because he is a big Democrat and he know more in his speeches in the thoughts of the white man.

I thank you for your kind attention and, my friends, I am very thankful for the privilege of sounding my words to you in this great hall here. I am directly talking to the Rapid City people. Of course, you have seen me before for I have done work for you Rapid City people in the days of the past. I thank you for your kindness.

Mr. COLLIER: Mr. Chairman: I think at this point a reply from me would be expected. Mr. White Man will not be called an ungrateful Indian. We want plain speech. We don't care if it is very emphatic. But Mr. White Man will not object if I correct one of his own statements. The proposed new policy of legislation will not be rammed down the throats of the Indians.

What is the meaning of this Congress and of the other Congresses that are to be held all over the Indian country? What is

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the meaning of our statement to you that we are not even interested in your indorsing the Bill? We are meeting with you in order that you and we may think out this question and improve the Bill in any way that it can be improved, or change it in any way it ought to be changed. Now, I want to go further in my reply to my friend, Mr. White Man.

Several times during yesterday's meeting, I brought up the subject of compulsory transfer by the Secretary of the Interior, leading up to the question of whether there ought to be any compulsion. That precise question is one on which we shall seek a referendum of the Indians. But I clearly explained to you yesterday my own views which were that this feature of the compulsory transfer of the allotment to the community is not necessary to the Bill, although I pointed out that there might arise conditions where a tribe might wish there were some compulsion.

Now I will speak both to Mr. White Man and to our friend who was out of order. If and when this compulsory feature is stricken from the Bill and transfer is made wholly voluntary so that an allottee may stay in or stay out, entirely as he prefers, then the decision as to whether or not this Bill goes into effect rests with the individual allottee whose property is in question—not even with the tribe but the ultimate individual can veto it.

Coming around to tribal action, I remind all of you that there are Indians in many states who are profoundly concerned with this Bill—in Oklahoma, California, Arizona, North Carolina, in the country all over as well as in the Northwest. If at the end there should be tribes who do not want this Bill, that is their own affair. Such tribes would not have the right and I am sure they would not have the desire to forbid other tribes from having the Bill if other tribes wanted it. Let me be explicit. It would be the easiest thing in the world to simply put an amendment at the end of this whole Bill and say that, just as the New York State Indians are not included in it.

And, I assure the Crow Delegation and any other delegation that when they go back to their people and take a referendum and if the majority of their people want to be shut out of this Bill, we will do all in our power to get them shut out. (Applause.) Of course they will have to know, that, as we say, "You can't eat your cake and nave it too." You can't be both in and out at the same time and the tribe which finally chooses, after this Bill is perfected, not to take advantage of it and not to have anything to do with it, would be making a serious choice—wise or unwise—and important. I would make the suggestion that before any tribe decides whether

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to stay in or get out of this Bill, the thing to do is to work over
the Bill and try to get it the kind of Bill the tribe wants. (Ap-
plause.) I believe you will all agree that this is the first time in
the history of the Indians that an administration which also con-
trols both houses of Congress came to the Indians on an important
legislative matter, requesting them to assist in drafting the Bill;
submitted the Bill to them for a referendum, and told them that
it was just up to them. The power was in them. It never happened
before. (Applause.) Now, we don't want any praise or gratitude on
account of this. We are only doing our duty. (Applause.) What we
do want is that the Indians and their councils and their leaders
shall do the thing we are asking: study the Bill, help us make it
right if it is not right; help us change it so that it is right and will
meet conditions, and we desire that they shall do that and not
simply close their minds and say, "We are not going to do any-
thing." And, this Congress is working just the way that I want
you to work. I am not suggesting that you are not working. You
are working on the Bill. And I want to wind up by saying again,
when a large crowd of people gather about an important thing;
when the ideas begin to bank up in their heads and their feelings
become intense, they are not always polite. There is no reason why
they should be. Let us just be ourselves and kick each other around
as much as we want to. That is all good. (Applause.)

Mr. SHEPARD: I now call on the Chairman of the Crow Creek
Delegation.

CROW CREEK CHAIRMAN: Mr. Chairman, I will have to ask
you to excuse me. I will have one of my delegates speak for me.
Mr. Joe Irving.

Mr. SHEPARD: That is quite all right. Mr. Joe Irving will you
come forward please?

Mr. IRVING: Mr. Chairman. I often thought of what Mr. Col-
lier's politics was. Some told me he was a Democrat and others
told me he was a Republican. I always thought he was a Socialist,
because the whole idea as to self-government, according to what
it says in the Bill, is Socialism. Now, as my time is very limited I
am going to come right to the point. The main objectionable point
in this Bill. I have had a taste of community life. When I was a
little boy my tribe used to live in a community, and I am pretty
sure I would not like to go back to it. Now, it is a rather long dis-
cussion about that part of the Bill, but time is getting short and I
am not going to say any more, and in the other section of the Bill,
the second section, ahead of setion three, is all hinged on the third
section.

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If that part of the Bill was cut off I do think that more would be
willing to adopt this new policy. I do not believe that in a highly
civilized country they would stand to give one man too much
power over a down-trodden people. In this Bill it gives the Com-
missioner of Indian Affairs power to take away from one Indian
and give to another Indian, if he so desires. Now everybody knows
that is not right. This is the United States, and according to this
Bill if it were passed we could not exercise our own rights and we
might just as well live in Russia. Well, I have not got much time
for further discussion. If I had to discuss this matter in detail it
would take me until tomorrow. It is that point that Fort Thompson
and Crow Agency is now objecting to. If that point from the Bill
is removed, I do not think that we would object to the Commis-
sioner's policy. That is all. I thank you.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: If the chair may have the liberty of speaking
half a minute, I want to say, with full respect to Mr. Irving's right
to say anything he wishes to, the one thing the Bill does not do is
to take land away from somebody and give it to somebody else.
Now, I want to call on the Chairman of the Flandreau delegation.
Who is speaking for Flandreau?

Mr. JESSE WHITE MAN, Flandreau, S. Dak.: Mr. Chairman,
Commissioner, Staff and Delegates, ladies and gentleman: I am a
representative for the delegation of the Flandreau Indians. Flan-
dreau is a very small place, just like myself. I will leave the land
question to the other delegates. It seems to me that the next in
importance or even greater importance to all Indians is the matter
of their future education. The education today needs quite a bit of
repairing. We have already found out from our present system of
education that the Indian as a student going into the colleges—the
result is so many of our Indian boys and girls are failures in col-
lege. It would be wrong to blame the student. Something must be
done as something is wrong in regard to the previous training. So
therefore it is just as important for all parents to look into it and
they should have a voice in regard to their education. We should
have a better system, better preparation for the student to enter
college, or university.

Some years ago, I do not remember how long—three or four
years ago—Congress orders that all academic or vocational and
non-reservation schools should have teachers with degrees and did
we get the? I will say no. I want to mention just one school and
that is where I came from. We have some instructors that are not
even high school graduates. From some particular departments
when the students go into colleges they are failures because of
their improper instruction.

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At this point I wish to say that I am very much in favor of the new program that is being put out. The program indicates that Indians will have a voice in their property or anything else that concerns them. Therefore, I believe I am very much in favor of the new system, especially of education. That is the only way we will have a voice in our education. In the present system, those people who are in the Civil Service will have jobs to go on unless their status is changed.

One more thing and I will be through. I want to say that if I am not mistaken, according to the new program the Indians of the United States, as a whole, will have an increase of land in the amount of something like forty thousand acres each year, instead of a decrease.

I said enough now because I belong to a small country and I am a small man myself. I thank you for your kind attention.

Mr. SHEPARD: I will now call on the Chairman of the Fort Berthold delegation.

FROM AUDIENCE: Mr. Beauchamp is our spokesman.

Mr. SHEPARD: Choose your interpreter—or will you do your own interpreting.

(Mr. Beauchamp chooses interpreter.)

Mr. BEAUCHAMP, Fort Berthold: Friends: The Fort Berthold delegation is not prepared to make any expression one way or another at this time. We are enjoying, however, the talks and the discussions that we have had in this convention. The more we learn from you and the more instructions we get from our Government officials, the more we believe we are getting the very best information we can secure so that we will be able to go back to our homes and take up these things seriously with every individual of our Reservation.

Now the rest of our time allotted to this delegation we will denote to the tribe.

Mr. SHEPARD: That is the shortest speech of the afternoon but as we are a little behind time we will go right ahead and call on the next delegation, from Fort Peck.

Mr. WETSIT, Fort Peck: Mr. Chairman and Honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs and his staff and my fellow Tribesmen: I am very grateful to present here at this great gathering today. There are 2,550 Indians of the Fort Peck Reservation of which I am a representative here today. But, I want you to understand that I am speaking as an individual and not to make any final decision or to make any endorsement of any program at this time.

Well, on the Fort Peck Reservation we own at this time 1,250,000 acres of land today, in the last 20 years up to today, there are 111

landless Indians living on the Fort Peck Reservation, and I just stated a while ago we own one and a quarter million acres—that is the last property we have got today. Therefore, we feel that something must be done to safeguard further loss of our property. We feel that if we can live all these years—eighty some odd years since the Government has been keeping us in the corrals, and living up to this time, why we feel we can take another chance. (Applause.) We feel a drastic change is necessary and if we can live on that old policy we can take our chance on another policy. I want to remind you of our great grandfathers in the history. Take in the year 1851, there was eight or nine tribes here gathered at Fort Laramie, just similar to this gathering here today, and I am thankful that we are fortunate enough, after eighty some odd years that we are called here and recognized as human beings, to consider our business for the future. You all know, recently the white people were hollering about "New Deal" and now I think it is about time that we are entitled to a new deal for our Indian people. Now, what I want to state to you at this time is, we came here for business and for the last two days Mr. Collier, our Commissioner, has made it very clear to us. He told us that he framed a Bill which would make life a little bit easier than what it has been in the past, and now, I think we should all get down and put on our thinking caps and see if we could frame up something. This is the first time in the history of our Indian people that they are recognized. They come to us and say "What is it you want now?" Now, Mr. Collier has said we can throw the Bill to one side. What do we offer in its place that is better? Now it is on behalf of the Fort Peck delegation that I want to state that we haven't got together. There is different objectionable features in the Bill that we are not quite clear on and therefore we have not decided to take any final action at this time, but in any action we are going to take, it would be subject to the approval of our people at home, after we make them understand what is made us understood here at this convention. I thank you.

Mr. SHEPARD: Now, the next speaker is the representative of the Fort Totten delegation. 10 minutes. Come right up.

Mr. CHARLIE BLACKBIRD, Fort Totten: Mr. Chairman, Honorable Commissioner and official executives. For the past two days we have been taking up the work of having the Howard-Wheeler Bill interpreted to the delegates from the different tribes of different Reservations, and I am sure that each and every member of the delegations from the different Reservations have at least understood parts of the Bill as it is presented and as near

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as I can understand the interpretation of the Bill there are parts in the Bill I suppose that each member of the delegations have a little difficulty in understanding, simply for the reason that parts of the Bill, what effect will it have on the different Reservations. I do not commit myself to say that I am opposed to the new land policy program of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and neither does the other members of my delegation who represent the Indians of the Devils Lake Indian Reservation have any objections to the Bill. Before we were delegated to come to the regional tribes conference, members of our local Indian Reservation stated that before we were sent here be sure and listen to it. "The effects of the Bill, if it has anything to do with our Reservation we would like to hear something about it when you get back."

I noticed that before we were sent here there was many of the people from my Tribe who stated that if the Bill had no tendency to deprive the Indians of the holdings, that he has on certain Reservation, well it would be agreeable. We have at one time previously taken up the work under the Circular letter of January 20, 1934 and the problems that were brought up before the General Council on Devils Lake Indian Reservation had also to deal with Indians' interest on other Indian Reservations, and under that question we merely took up the work of answering the Circular of January 20, 1934. This work was done before we had any knowledge of what Howard and Wheeler was giving to us. So I, myself, have wondered as to just what effect this Bill will have on the interests of Indians on other Reservations. We have still tomorrow to discuss the balance of the work that is still left in the Bill, and from the work of tomorrow, explaining or interpreting the balance of what is left in the Bill, I suppose we can all learn something more so that when we leave here we will be able to go back to our Indian Reservations and say that the work being done here was in accordance with the work that we had taken up previously. At the conclusion of the Plains Indian's Congress I hope that there will be attached in the meetings of the Congress that the Government can guarantee us in some way that it will live up to its obligations and everything that was taken up in regard to their new land policy.

Dr. ROE CLOUD: Now, while we are getting ready for the next speaker, who will be from the jurisdiction of the Pine Ridge Agency, South Dakota, if the employee who has charge of the lights is here, I wish he would turn on the lights. Let's have more light on the subject.

Mr. JACOB WHITE COW KILLER, Pine Ridge: If the chairman does not object, I would like to talk in the Indian language.

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William Fire Thunder interprets the English. When the Pine Ridge Council selected me as a delegate to come to attend this Congress, it was with the idea of coming here and listening so that I could take back to them what the policies were. I was not sent here to pass on any questions that were discussed. I wish to tell here just how I see the picture according to the presentation made by Mr. Collier.

The question that confronts us and all the Congress is that Mr. Collier draws us a picture of the Bill and presents the acceptable features, or good features, to us all the way through. Now, if that Bill becomes a law and is accepted by the people what will happen then? The question I see is that what has been presented by Mr. Collier as the good features of the Bill will never get through Congress as a whole. There will be some features added and some stricken off before it reaches its final end. Will the Commissioner go behind this Bill supporting it as it is all the way through?

I also observe another thing and that is this: After I take back the provisions of the Bill to my people and present the good points to them and we accept it whole-heartedly and the Bill becomes a law in an entirely different form, I see that Mr. Collier will be criticized.

I also observe another probable thing and that is this: That what the Republican Party has been doing in the past has been all torn to pieces by the Democratic Party, and naturally there will be a large opposition to what Mr. Collier is trying to do.

What is in the minds of the delegations that has been sent here from Pine Ridge, is this: That when this Congress comes to an end, we will go back to our people and present to them all the different discussions that have taken place here. Then we will take final action as to whether we shall accept or reject the program.

I also feel that this Bill may be constructed for the best interests of the Indians and yet within four years from now there will be the biggest battle that has ever taken place in the administration of our affairs, and Mr. Collier's program will be fought by the Republican Party to a bitter end.

I also know another thing to be a fact and that is this: That if we go back to our people and present to them the discussions here—discuss them among ourselves, analyze them, and digest them, then when the Bill comes out in a law in entirely different form, I know that my people will call me a big liar.

I do not want to take up any more of my allotted time because the Pine Ridge delegation has submitted some questions to be

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answered. When those questions are to be answered I will use the remainder of my time then.

Dr. ROE CLOUD: The Chair acknowledges its mistake in omitting one of the delegations. The promise was that they should come in alphabetical order. The delegation omitted was Lower Brule and, if they are here, we shall hear from them now, apologizing for our mistake.

Mr. GEORGE YELLOW, Lower Brule: I have nothing to say to the audience on this side, but I have to these people up here on the platform and I am going to face them and I want the interpreter to face them too.

The first thing I want to say is this: I want to thank these officials for bringing to us a gigantic measure which, to me, is very important. In my heart I believe that it is the right thing for an Indian and a white man to stand together. What I have reference to is that in the past we have never had a friend. I believe that we have a friend that we can stand together with now. It is unbelievable that he can call such a Congress here of the Plains tribes to discuss this important matter and I do not believe there is any fraud or wrong concerning it.

I also observe with reference to the allotment system that ever since we have been governed by the white people, the white man has been reaching into my pockets and robbing me of everything except the soles of my shoes.

I want to talk right straight to the Commissioner and tell him that the people I am representing are living in conditions that are very deplorable. According to the allotment system, trust patents were issued and some fee patents have been issued, but I have found that the land for which a trust patent was issued does not actually belong to me. What I fear is this: That within three or four years from now I will lose all of my holdings and my interests and my property.

I wish to thank my people for sending me here to listen and observe what has taken place here so that I can take it back to them for action.

Supt. TIDWELL: The question arises with me that the Winnebago Tribe, having four delegations here, might be entitled to four representative speakers.

Dr. ROE CLOUD: I am instructed as Chairman to say that we will hear from the Winnebago jurisdiction as one.

Supt. TIDWELL: That was not true of the Crow Creek and Lower Brule Reservations. That is one jurisdiction.

Dr. ROE CLOUD: The Chair rules that we will hear from

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Winnebago as one this time because we have only seventy minutes left and there are a certain number to be heard from.

Supt. TIDWELL: We will abide by your ruling.

Dr. ROE CLOUD: The next delegation to be heard is Rocky Boy.

Mr. MALCOM MITCHELL from Rocky Boy: I can't say very much because our land is different from those other tribes. Our land is not allotted. It is tribal land, and what this new plan, what we hear, it is nothing that is going to hurt our Reservation, so we are just going to put our foot in it. That is all I have to say. (Applause.)

The Chairman, Dr. ROE CLOUD: The next delegate to be heard from is Rosebud Indian Agency under Supt. Roberts, and unless we have time enough to hear from both, this representative will speak for Yankton.

Mr. SAM LaPOINT of Rosebud: Mr. Chairman, may I have the privilege of interpreting for myself. (Granted.) I haven't very much to tell you because we don't know yet what we are going to do. We are in the deep sea and for the last two days, this is the third day, we have been hearing, listening to the discussions and propoundings of Mr. Collier. I don't know but what we should give an Indian name to Mr. Collier. I think we had better call him the Iron Man because I know he has worn out every interpreter we have got. The Rosebud delegation is not at liberty to make any decision one way or another here, and whatever individual opinions we may have, I don't think we dare express that. The instructions we have from home are that we are to listen, thresh out the whole thing and bring the meat home and leave the bones up here and so that is what we are going to do, and I am very sorry, Mr. Collier, that we can not say, one way or the other at this time. Now, we have heard quite a bit about this new program of the Commissioner's. He was at Rosebud in the last six weeks. I tell you Rosebud put one over you fellows because we had the Commissioner the first part of December at our Agency. We put one over on you fellows. Pine Ridge got a taste of that too, so we know something about the program since the first of December, and individually and collectively different times we have tried to study and study and study and the more we study the less we know. That is the situation we have, but now I think, since I have been here for the past two days and this is the third day, and personally, I am not talking for the tribe, I am talking not for the delegation, but personally, this is my decision. So far in the last three days, I have been convinced that there are two sections that could be worked on our Reservation to good advantage.

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One is the education system. We need it, oh! the worst way. We know it and nobody knows that as well as our selves. Then the land tenure, with a few modifications. That could be worked on our Reservation too. Now, then the other two, I hate even to look at them. I don't know whether we can look at it at all or not, self-government at this time because we are very lacking in material—good material—men as leaders.

We have now on our Reservation a population of 6200 Indians. I do not think we can find any man that would take hold of or that will make a success of it at this time. Now, I tell you, in every critical crisis point in history there has always been the rise of the man of the hour and now for the last three or four months we have tried to find some man that will rise up to be the man of the hour and we cannot find him. This is very sad. I am sure that there are some phases that could be worked, so the only thing I got to tell you now is that we cannot come to any decision soon. Personally, I want to tell you this makes me feel pretty bad, back two or three days, Friday. I guess it was, this program according to Mr. Collier was repeating at that time, he said that he heard that some of our Missionaries had felt that this program was going to put our Indians back, way back 50 years into Heathenism and savagery. Well, I just laughed to myself. Imagine Henry Roe Cloud going back 50 years. I would just like to see him. I remember the first time I saw Henry was when he was a little boy and I was a young man and we were going to Santee. I guess he did not change much but I would like to see how we would look to go back 50 years, back to Heathenism. That is clear out of the question, for our Indian people of today. I am going to tell you something. If you white people were in our position 50 years ago you could not make as much advancement as we have made in the last 50 years. It took you people 2,000 years to be where you are now and you know we are almost up to you now. Here is the sad feature of the whole thing. Mr. McGregor is a good friend of mine, Mr. Roberts is a good friend, Mr. Baker is a good friend, I think a lot of them. I do not want to say anything to hurt their feelings. The Indian used to be at one time a self-supporting citizen, had his own government, had his own system of living. Under their own system they were intelligent people. They lived independently, depending on nobody. Initiative was something natural with them, but here today look at our Indian race. No initiative whatever there, and when I look at my people I almost cry to think that we had no man to take hold and go on. We have not degenerated below that, but that has been taught us through

our people by the systems, Bureaucracy, absolutism, holding the Indians down. You know I worked for the Government 26 years and served in the war and look at my condition now, but I am no longer working for the Government, thanks to Mr. C. J. Rhoads. After 26 years in the Service, because you have no college degree, therefore you are dismissed from the Service.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: You have about one minute to go.

Mr. LaPOINTE: I have ten minutes because I have been interpreting for myself.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: Your using the interpreter's time is like using the tribal funds for administration purposes.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: Next jurisdiction to be heard from is the Shoshone, Mr. Haas, Superintendent, and the representative will come forward and speak for the Shoshone delegation.

CHARLES A. DRISCO: Mr. Chairman, Members of the Washington Staff, ladies and gentlemen: At this time we are non-committal but we are going to do our utmost to convey the interpretations of this Bill to our folks back home.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: We thank the Shoshone delegate for giving us that time. Now we will hear from the Sisseton people.

Mr. AMOS ONE ROAD, Sisseton, S. Dak.: Mr. Chairman, fellow members of the Aborigenies. I am happy to be here, and I want to say that I am not an Atheist. The Arians and the Anglo Saxon are here. Plato made this remark one thousand years B. C.: "The acquisition of knowledge is a good thing. The cultivation of Science and Philosophy is a good thing, but there is something infinitely more important than all these, it is the rectification through that mysterious operation we call sympathy, emotion." That is why you are here. My delegates, the Sisseton and Wahpeton people are here, and I wish to say that my mind goes back into the history of the past. I am like Will Rogers, all that I know is what I read in the papers, and I want to say that this problem, this Indian solution, is and was begun when those Puritans landed at Plymouth Rock and fell upon their knees and then upon the Abroginies and said—"We thank thee God that we can whirl these Savages to Eternity."

I want to say that the Sioux Indians have been in contact for many years, ever since the early French explorers, and I want to make it short. I could talk here all afternoon, but that is not the question. There was a settlement known as the Hazelwood Republic from 1851 to 1862 at Granit Falls. That was wiped out by the outbreak of 1862, and thereby all our treaties, the ten mile strip, was confiscated by the Federal Government. But this Robert

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E. Lee, the Revolutionary general, was in the same category. His land was stripped off and yet the heirs received that land back again. Why could we not then. I am going right down to this place. In March 3, 1872, Congress ceased to recognize the American Indian as a separate nation. It ceased to recognize their treaties. What I am getting at is this; we have our Commissioner of Indian Affairs here and the Secretary of the Interior is not here, but way back in 1871, the Secretary of the Interior, Delano, and Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Smith, came to Sisseton and consented with those people and promised to make a codified set of laws governing those Indian people in Dakota Territory, doing away with Indian chiefs and substituting a form of government towards American civilization. In 1867 the Sissetons went to Washington. Gabriel Renville was elected head chief. After his speech around; and only yesterday it was the great figure of allotment in which the heirs were so numerous; he arose and made his resignation as head chief of those bands. Those people elected their magistrates, their officers, constables, their farmers and other ones. They had ox teams, hitched them to their plows, and their women went out with little babies on their backs and went forth with joy. With their ox teams and with the brush of a certain tree they harrowed the land. What I am getting at is this. In 1867 treaty there is a clause which says that the man who fences and plows two or three acres will receive an allotment, and it was. That allotment is different from the laws act, and what I am getting at is this; that under the allotment system this land will be handed down to the descendants of the owner and will never be sold. When the blood expires, it will return to the United States for a consideration. That was good, but we ought to substitute that treaty of 1867 with that allotment, in order to live. The officials tell me, "Hold on to your land," and I am going to do it. Now, am I going to throw my land into that jackpot? I am a citizen I think, and so are my people and yours. I stood here on the mountain top, looking at the profile of Washington, who said years ago, "They, the poor wretches have no press through which their grievances may be related," and when one side of the question is related, it becomes obviously unbalanced and I want to say this. That if this Bill becomes true this is the last and greatest treaty that will be made and it will terminate all previous treaties and it will be defunct as the mighty dinosaur, which has been defunct for ten thousands. (Applause.)

Mr. CLEMENT SMITH: Friends, I have been listening to Mr. Collier's description of this Bill for several days.

FRANCIS RED TOMAHAWK from Standing Rock: Mr. Chair-

man, Standing Rock Delegation protests their position. They are next in alphabetical order.

Mr. SMITH: I withdraw because you precede me.

Mr. TOMAHAWK: Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentleman of the audience. Before starting, we had a list of questions which we wanted to read into the record but our time is so limited at this time and the meeting is limited also, and we are therefore handing these questions in to be incorporated into the records, and as I want to speak on something else in connection with these, outside of these questions, I will not read them. Now then. We are here, a great many people from different Reservations altogether here to consider a piece of legislation which the Commissioner himself, upon being questioned last night, could not give an explanation clear enough to clear the issue. How, can people who have no legal training understand a piece of complicated legislation intended for them and for them to discuss in a short, very brief period, and understand the whole situation clearly, I can not understand. We, the Standing Rock Delegation present here, considered the plans as outlined to us in a circular under date of January 20, this year. Up to that time we had not received a copy of that Bill. We did not know what the contents of that Bill were. How were we to know what the provisions were? But, in spite of that handicap we desired a change from the old policy. We wanted something new, something constructive, something that would elevate the status of the Indian of the United States to become a part of the economic life of the nation, and not dead weight upon that economic factor. Now, before the allotments on our Reservation the whole Reservation belonged to all of us. We each and every one had an equal share in that Reservation. Whatever we derived from that particular land out of leases, etc., right of ways, etc., was equally distributed and it worked to our advantage. About 1904 after the Milwaukee had penetrated into our Reservation and cut it in two, the United States officials came out there and began to preach us allotment to us. They, you might say, coerced our people into the allotment system which was their downfall at this time. At that time we had about three million acres or more. Today we have not got half of that. That is the evil of the allotment system. Now, the question uppermost in the minds of the Standing Rock people, which is worrying them, is this. The United States, through the provisions in various treaties entered into with the Sioux nations provides that they would give us a certain amount of land that they would hold that land under restriction for a stated period of time. Upon the expiration of that

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trust period they would give a patent in fee free of all charge and incumberance. That time arrived, and the officials saw that the people were not in a condition to take a patent in fee and assume the burdens of responsibility of the citizens of the state, and therefore, under Presidential proclamation by President Hoover, the trust period was extended to cover a number of states for a period of ten years. Now then, how long have we got before that trust patent is to end. Not very far. About eight years or a little more, and at the end of that time our people will not have become very much more educated than they are now, and it will necessitate another extension of the trust period as I see it. Now then. The Standing Rock face a change from the old system to a new system, but the provisions contained in the first title of this proposed legislation are too drastic a change. It is too abrupt a change from the present order of things, and it will do a certain amount of harm I believe which, while not being permanent, will do quite a little bit of injustice. I think that the order that we ought to adopt would be to salvage the very best parts of the old, cut out the undesirable parts, and what our people want is this. They are not adapted to the white man's culture. They live under a different culture of their own and within a short space of time in which they are trying to adapt themselves to the white man's culture they can not compete with the white people, and therefore a certain amount of protection must be given our people, and therefore what we want was this. A permanent trust placed upon all lands owned by the Indians. Somewhat on the order that the preceding speaker stated just a little while ago. And, the educational features of that provision of the proposed law. We have no objection to that at all, because we need something like that, and I think it is just the thing we need. Now then, the other provision, the fourth provision. I do not know. That has to do with law, and as I said a bit ago, we haven't got legal training and how far we can carry that to a success is doubtful. Now, Mr. Chairman, I ask for an extension of time to explain what I have just said.

CHAIRMAN: There are only fourteen minutes left to hear two more delegations so we can not allow you any more time.

DR. ROE CLOUD: A while ago I was empowered to say from high authority that if any tribe wants to accept any part of this Bill and initiate that portion on their Reservation, the problem of lack of leadership which Sam LaPointe spoke of need not interfere. Adoption of some parts may be deferred until you have leaders and introduced them.

The next jurisdiction is Turtle Mountain.

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FRANK WILSON, Pine Ridge: We don't want an interpreter in Indian. That is a waste of time.

Mr. LaPOINTE, Interpreting for speaker on the floor in the audience: We can not talk English and we do not understand it.

Mr. LaPOINTE: I will interpret for the speaker.

Dr. ROE CLOUD: The time is very short. Please speak very fast.

JOHN AZURE, Turtle Mountain: Friends: At the present time our Reservation is twelve miles long and six miles wide and in that Reservation there are more than three thousand people. The better half of this Reservation is now owned by the white people. So we are having a hard time. Something must be done so that we can get along better than this.

We have been here for three days now trying to understand the explanation of Commissioner Collier. But we did not learn so very much because we do not have the education. When I was first elected to our council I could hardly spell my own name, but still I am trying to do the best I can for my people.

Now the way we understand Mr. Collier's explanation, it sounds rather good to us delegates, but we are not going to say that we are in favor of the new policy or against it. We would like to take the news back to our Indian people and explain everything we have learned to them. After that, if the majority want to take up this new policy it is up to them.

The only thing now we wish from the Government is to give us help or relief to get a start. The first thing of all we need is education. We have no education on our Reservation. If the Government can work out a plan that helps us out, some way to get us on our feet—that is what we want. I thank you.

Dr. ROE CLOUD: The next speaker is from Winnebago.

Mr. FELIX WHITE, Winnebago: Mr. Chairman: I want to say that there are four different tribes under this jurisdiction, so that if each of their representatives may say something at this time I won't say very much. They each have different problems. I will just take a half minute.

Dr. ROE CLOUD: The speaker is going to divide his ten minutes among the other speakers from this Reservation.

Mr. FELIX WHITE: We were sent up here to be open-minded and we have tried our best to be, although some things are not clear. I am praying that tomorrow I will have a clear vision of all things.

I want to express appreciation that the Commissioner brought this ball of light out here. We are probably the last on the list—last but not least. I believe Adam and Eve were Winnebagos. We

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are thankful that we came up here. We have learned a lot and will
learn some more.

Mr. ELWOOD HARLAN, Winnebago: Mr. Chairman: I might say here that our jurisdiction did not get a square deal. I want to state that in 1874 we had a land proposition similar to the one that is now under consideration by all of you. At that time we were given a certificate of occupancy title which would allow you to live on your land, die and allow your future generations to occupy it, but could not sell it. But what happened? The treaty that we had negotiated with the Government gave Congress the power—the Treaty of 1865. Politicians changed the good law we had into an allotment law in 1882. We had 300,000 acres of the most valuable agricultural land in the State of Nebraska. Today we have 25,000 acres.

I want to say for my people that I am not going to make any
decision. I am going to go home with the good news of what I have
learned here, that we are not going to be losing anything to try
this new deal.

Mr. WILLIAM WHIPPLE, Santee: For the reason that we Santee did not have any tribal council about this Bill at all as the rest of the Reservation did (more than half of our tribe is scattered among other tribes) we feel that we ought to get the opinion of all the others before we give a decision.

Dr. ROE CLOUD: The next speaker will be from Yankton.

Mr. CLEMENT SMITH, Yankton: (Mr. Wilson objected to Mr. Smith, saying that Yankton was represented by Rosebud.)

Mr. SMITH: Is there another Indian who wants to take my place or is my time up?

Dr. ROE CLOUD: Go ahead.

Mr. SMITH: Mr. Chairman: I don't like to say very much but I have been listening to Mr. Collier the last few days, and, to be brief, he has been telling us that the Bill which has been under discussion has as its purpose to make it as hard as possible to do wrong and as easy as possible to do right. We have also been talking about the allotment system. He tells us about the allotment system and says that the purpose of the allotment system and the laws that govern the allotment system were made as easy as possible to do wrong and as hard as possible to do right. That is my understanding of what he has conveyed to this council.

Of course, I realize that the things that are contained in that Bill would baffle the brains of a Huxley or a Darwin, and I contend that it must be revised. But, if Mr. Collier will listen to us Indians and let us revise it, I think we will strike pay dirt.

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Dr. ROE CLOUD: I want to thank you Indians for listening and I think there are controversial matters in this program. I am glad you are going home to submit the whole thing to the councils. I pronounce this meeting adjourned.

Adjourned.

Questions from Crow Creek Delegation

QUESTION: This Bill abrogates the treaty laws agreements, and laws of Congresses, especially the allotment system, but the Indian became a citizen under the Act of June 2, 1924 (Public No. 175, 68th Congress). Thereby he has the full privilege of any other citizen of the United States, and bound by the United States Constitution, and is protected by constitution, amendment Article 5, among other things said "Nor be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation." How will this Bill affect individual property and land?

ANSWER—Mr. COLLIER: The constitution guarantees that just compensation must be given for any private property taken for public use. The new Bill and any act under the new Bill must conform with the constitution. If this act did not conform with the constitution the Courts would hold that it was void. I have already explained that the provision for transferring Indian lands to the community in Section 8 of title 3 will be amended so as to make such transfers voluntary. In any case the Courts would protect the right of any person to fair compensation for any lands transferred to the community.

QUESTION: Government will buy land for the landless Indians. From what funds, will these additional lands be bought?

ANSWER—Mr. COLLIER: The Bill provides that a fund of $2,000,000 may be appropriated each year to buy lands for landless Indians and Indians with insufficient lands. This money will be paid out of the United States Treasury.

QUESTION: Will the Government give the money on gratuity and reimbursable basis?

ANSWER—Mr. COLLIER: The Bill provides that the money will be appropriated on a gratuity basis. That is with respect to money for the purchase of land. The Bill also provides for a $10,000,000 fund which will be loaned to Indians for the purpose of cattle, the improvement of land and other purposes. This money will be handled through chartered communities and loaned without interest for periods not more than thirty years.

QUESTION: If this Bill passes would it stop our suit now pending before the Court of Claims and would it be a dead line of claiming any damages for property and land?

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ANSWER—Mr. COLLIER: This Bill would not interfere in any way with any claims or suits against the Government.

QUESTION: What advice would you give if any money is recovered—what will you do with the money?

ANSWER—Mr. COLLIER: I assume that you are referring to the General Sioux claims. Any recovery would probably be apportioned among the different Reservations. If any of the Indians entitled to any of this money are in a chartered community, they will be given the right to veto any expenditure of this money, and the money may be turned over to the community to be distributed or spent as the community charter may provide. Claims collected by tribes to which no charters have been granted may be spent by the United States Government for administrative expenses and other purposes, as has been the case in the past.

QUESTION: Will the Administration try to push this Bill through regardless as to the wants of this Congress, or is it optional and awaiting results?

ANSWER—Mr. COLLIER: The Bill itself is optional in nearly all its provisions and Indians who do not wish to take advantage of these provisions are not under any compulsion to do so. However, if a majority of the members of your Reservation after thoroughly discussing and understanding this Bill want to submit an amendment that this Bill shall not apply to that Reservation, I will recommend to Congress that such an amendment be accepted. It should be understood however that none of the benefits of the Bill will be available to an Indian Reservation that is excluded by such an amendment. Of course if any Indian Reservation thinks that it can get a special law applicable to itself, instead of this Bill, it can try to do so, but the experience that several tribes have had in trying to get such special legislation shows that Congress is too busy to pass a special law for each tribe that wants a special treatment.

Monday, March 5, 1934

MORNING SESSION

Morning session opened by Mr. Woehlke, Chairman, at 9:45 a. m.

Mr. WOEHLKE: The session of the Congress is now open. Are the interpreters ready; have they their throats oiled? (Answers, "Yes.")

Now, my friends, the Government is considering this Congress of such importance that the wheels of the Government in Washington have almost stopped. Everybody is here. The last arrival from Washington came this morning and I now have the pleasure to introduce to you the Assistant Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Honorable William Zimmerman.

Before we proceed to the business of the day, I would like to tell you very briefly what the Northern Cheyenne said to me last night and what I said to them. They said, "We are allotted only two years, and our Reservation is now in the condition into which you would like to put a lot of the other Reservations which already have lost their land. We were allotted only two years ago and we have lost only four allotments through fee-patents." The Superintendent rises to correct me and says only two.—None, still better. But, he says, "Already we have a large number of dead allotments and these dead allotments mostly cover good land, farming land in the creek bottoms." "Now," he says, "If the land section of that Bill will keep our lands for us and save the dead allotments for us, we are for it, and if the credit section of that Bill can help our livestock associations to get money for cattle, and if it can help us to get a little credit to build new houses with, then we are for it." "But," they said, "We are afraid of that self-government section. We are afraid of those chartered communities and we are afraid of them because we have no young men yet who can do all that work that we have to do under this self-government section, and we are afraid of that."

So I said to them, "Under this Bill your land in that Reservation, that is all yours now. Your tribal land and your allotted land will

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be protected" As I said, if this Bill is adopted the credit section was made for people like you who are in a position to and willing to help themselves. I said to them, "You don't have to be afraid of self-government. All of that self-government comes into force only as you want it. This Bill, if it were passed just as it is, merely sets the self-government table. It puts out a table and puts all kinds of self-government dishes on from pie and roast beef down to a plate of soup. The Government says to you, 'Here it is, all the dishes. Step up to the table and eat if you want to.' And the Government says to you, 'Be careful. You have not had a dish of self-government for a hundred years, so don't eat too much at the start. It might make you sick. You don't have to eat anything on that self-government table unless you want to, and if you want to you can start with a plate of soup and gradually work your way up to the roast beef as you are able to digest it.'" So that is what the Northern Cheyenne said to me and what I said to them and that is all. But it took us four and a half hours to say it.

Now, I have heard that a great many of the old warriors feel that because this is an Indian Congress and not a white man's congress, we should have some talks in the Indian languages and I think that is a good request. So beginning at ten o'clock we will hear from the old men in their own language for brief periods each. We are now asking the various delegations to unite and select the older man who is to speak between eleven and twelve.

FRANK WILSON, Pine Ridge: Mr. Chairman: We put questions here on this table in the last gathering and we want to continue on that.

Mr. WOEHLKE: We will.

Mr. RED TOMAHAWK, Standing Rock: Mr. Chairman: During yesterday's council I asked the Commissioner that we be allowed to put into the record a report of the tribal business council and he said we could.

Mr. WOEHLKE: That will be done.

Mr. RED TOMAHAWK: I have the minutes here and will turn them in.

Mr. WOEHLKE: Yesterday afternoon I was sorry I had to be a little harsh with a gentleman who spoke out of turn and I believe that this gentleman who was out of turn yesterday should be given an opportunity to speak his mind. Therefore, if that gentleman, who was out of order yesterday afternoon, is in the house, I would be glad to have him come to the platform here and, with your consent, speak five minutes. Is he here? Is Mr. Davidson here?

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Mr. FIRE THUNDER: (Pine Ridge.) I think he went home.

Mr. WOEHLKE: I am sorry.

Now, a large number of questions that were submitted in writing have so far remained unanswered. We said that we would answer them and we do not want to speak with two tongues. Therefore, I am asking the Commissioner to show us that he is like an iron man and answer some more questions now.

Mr. COLLIER: A question from many of the Sioux delegates, about the meaning of section 11, in paragraph E, page 18, of the Senate Bill. This question says: what Indians shall be eligible for membership in a chartered community? What they are troubled about, are those Sioux Indians who have allotments and who are living in areas that are now surplus and ceded lands? In order to make the meaning clear we are changing the language. I will read it in the changed form and I think it will be clear to you. "The term Indian as used in this title, specifying the persons to whom charters may be issued, will include all persons of Indian descent: 1st—who are members of any recognized Indian Tribe, band, or nation. 2nd—who are descendants of any such members of any recognized Tribe, band or Nation, actually residing within the present boundaries of any Indian Reservation." We add this language; "including surplus areas opened to settlement and home-steal entry." That is the new language which I think will meet the questions in the minds of the Sioux. Now in addition to all of those classes, any Indian, with one-fourth or more Indian blood may be put into a chartered community if he wants to and in addition still, members may be brought into the community by adoption, by admission if the community wants them. This all has to do with title one, about being a member of a chartered community, and has nothing to do with land holdings. An Indian need not be a member of a chartered community at all and many will never be. Their lands are not disturbed. This only has to do with the self-government feature.

Next QUESTION—Lower Brule: Will the Bill affect the rights of Indians in any given Reservation or community to minerals, or anything in the land, oil, gas, etc?

ANSWER: No, but I told one of the delegations last night, I think it was the Blackfeet, that in order to make it clear we had better put in language saying so. If an Indian made relinquishment of his allotment to the community and took title in the community land, he could simply reserve any mineral rights so that they would not go into the community. The title to the minerals would remain with him individually.

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### Standing Rock QUESTION:
In the matter of forming a chartered community, the question is what would be considered a reasonable number of adults to justify forming a community?

### ANSWER:
There is no fixed number. Anything from ten to ten thousand. That is entirely a matter of the local people and the desire of the Indians in the matter of organization.

### Mr. COLLIER:
It is suggested that regarding this amendment about membership in the chartered community that I ask Major Case whether he thinks that meets the situation of the Sioux.

### Major CASE:
I have gone over the language now proposed as an amendment by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and I will tell you what I think about it.

This language will protect the people, allottees, in all country or areas opened up out of the 1889 Reservation. It is very clear that the people who live in Bennett, Tripp, Gregory or Mellette counties or the Northern counties opened up out of Cheyenne River or Standing Rock are protected. Now, while I am on my feet I would like to tell the Winnebago delegates that I would like to see them just after we have our mid-day meal, right here.

### Mr. COLLIER:
Now, continuing my answer about the size of the chartered community. It might be some tiny group of Indians who have a body of land. There are tribes with fewer than 100 members in the United States. Again, a whole large jurisdiction might decide to take out a charter as a self-governing jurisdiction or a large jurisdiction might decide to break itself down into two, three or four town governments, or again a group of Indians might decide to get a charter for some special purpose, such as forming a stock running association, and the size of the group would be determined accordingly by the Indians.

### Another Standing Rock QUESTION:
This relates to Section 3 of the Bill, Land Title. "Can the community lawfully take jurisdiction over severally owned land and personal property within its confines?" This question has to do with allotments that are kept separate but are continued within the boundaries of an organized community. The answer is, "Yes," by which I mean this, that the community is an instrumentality of the Federal Government and by agreement between the Community and the Secretary of the Interior the Secretary could delegate to the community his own regulative powers over allotments in severalty. Remember always that the communities are things which the Indians can have or not have and they can take a power of this kind or they can not take it. It is entirely optional. Of course, with respect to the land which the community owns, obviously the

community can manage that land, and in this connection Mr. Cohen says it may be well to remind you that an Indian having an allotment which has been fee patented and is therefore unrestricted, could, if he desired, exchange that for an allotment of land restricted and under trust and therefore tax exempt.

Under Section 4, a question. "How can judgments against the Indian community be enforced since the property is all in trust or a restricted status?" This means that if an Indian community is sued and judgment obtained against it, how could it be collected, since the lands are not subject to judgment? The answer is, that the judgments could not be enforced if their enforcement meant taking land or capital from the tribe. However, if a tribe wanted to enter into a contract, thereby to take on obligations, and wanted to pledge some income against that contract, and to stipulate that, then with the consent of the Secretary of the Interior, that future income might be made subject to judgment.

Again, under Title 4. The question is difficult to state and may be difficult to answer. It is really under title one because it relates to membership in the community—rights in the community. "Where there is a husband and wife and one of them abandons the community, then what is the status of the children?" The answer is that the children remain members of the community unless the children individually, themselves, abandon it. Any Indian may abandon the community and so may the children, but they are members unless they abandon it.

Then a question concerning the participation of members of the Indian communities in funds derived from suits in the Court of Claims. The answer there is that, as you know, judgments obtained in the Court of Claims are paid into tribal funds. Every member of the tribe—every enrolled member—has his equal equity in those funds. That holds good regardless of whether an Indian is in a community or not in a community, so that the rights of the Indian, in and out of the community in the matter of these funds would be equal. There would, however, be one important advantage in this matter to those who are in communities, as I explained to the Sioux the other night, in the matter of their Black Hills judgment, if and when they get it. The shares of the tribal fund belonging to the members of the communities would no longer be subject to appropriation by Congress for any and every purpose, but could be spent only with the consent of the community. Under Section 3 of title one; about chartering of communities and the question relates to this situation that might arise under the Bill, which provides that when a charter is

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Issued to a tribe, the Secretary of the Interior can not revoke the charter. Only the tribe can revoke its own charter, or Congress can revoke it. The Secretary of the Interior can report a recommendation to Congress recommending that the Charter be revoked.

Now, suppose Congress does not agree with the Secretary and rejects his recommendations and refuses to revoke the charter. The answer is that the charter stands. The Indians can always revoke it.

In general, throughout this self-government clause, the effort is to put the Secretary of the Interior in a position where, if he wants to change what the Indians are doing under the charter, he has either to convince the Indians or convince Congress. He can not be arbitrary about it.

Another question which is again asked is, "Will Indian restricted land be subject to attachment?" And the answer has already been given, "No, it will not."

(A question is handed in by Foster Thunder Hawk, Rosebud, addressed to Mr. Stewart.)

Mr. COLLIER: (Reads question.) "Mr. Stewart: I wish you would explain in regard to the exchange a restricted land for a deeded land and where the Indian clog the title and where the state jumps in and says the Indians must pay tax."

Mr. FOSTER THUNDER HAWK: The State might say it has to be taxed.

Mr. STEWART: Does that involve deed land—alienated land, or land held under restrictions?

Mr. THUNDER HAWK: Land held under restrictions to be exchanged for deeded land.

Mr. STEWART: The note says, in regard to the exchange of a restricted piece of land for deeded land or a fee patented land (Now, as I asked before, does that involve any alienated land—by alienated I mean taxable lands?) and it further goes on and says, where the State jumps in and says the Indians must pay taxes, what will be the outcome?

Now, if I understand the question correctly—

Mr. THUNDER HAWK: I think you misunderstood it.

Mr. STEWART: I think I have too.

Mr. THUNDER HAWK: Restricted land is exchanged for re-
stricted land, but if Mr. McGregor puts the deeded land back into
a trust, the Supreme Court says this deeded land could not be put
back in trust and there is a tax against it. Would that be involved
in this community organizaton?

Mr. RED TOMAHAWK, interpreter, Standing Rock: What he

is trying to drive at is this: In exchanges of land between an
Indian and a white man, trust land and deeded land, he says the
Supreme Court has held that the State had a right to tax the
land and that they could not remove or attach to the deed a clause
restricting the alienation of that land once it had been deeded.
He says, "Would that matter be involved in any transactions of
that kind in the future?"

Mr. STEWART: Under the terms of this Bill, I am subject to
correction by the lawyers here, provision is made for an Indian
on restricted land outside a community or an Indian area we pro-
pose to consolidate, to exchange that restricted land with any
white owner of land within the area. Now, if you have some re-
stricted land outside and you want to exchange it for land inside
that is taxable owned by a white man, you would take over his
land unrestricted but he would have to continue to pay taxes on
the land that you turned over to him outside the area.

Mr. LaPOINTE: That answers the question.

Mr. SIEGAL: I would like to add a few words to what Mr.
Stewart has already said. The Supreme Court has held that
where fee patented land, once subject to taxation, has been pur-
chased for an Indian with restricted funds, the land continues
to remain subject to taxation. The Supreme Court did not say
that Congress could not exempt that land from taxation. The
Supreme Court ruled that whether or not the land should be
subjected to tax exemption was a question for Congress to deter-
mine. The Supreme Court held that it was not the intention of
Congress, after construing the various acts of Congress, to exempt
such land from taxation.

(Some one asked that this be repeated.)

(Mr. LaPointe asks to interpret this.)

The Supreme Court in the case I referred to held that it was not
Congress' intention to exempt from taxation land which was once
subject to taxation but purchased for an Indian out of funds which
were restricted. But the Court made it plain that if Congress
intended to exempt the land from taxation it could do so.

Under this act, restricted land is exchanged for fee patented land,
the Indian will receive in exchange the right to use the same
amount of land or the rental from that land and that land will
be free from taxation, or the restricted in exchange for a similar
piece, land of equivalent value, and it should be made plain in
the Act, if it is not plain now, that that land should be free
from taxation. I think the gentlemen's question brings up a good
point. As the Act reads now, only lands which are acquired for

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the community or the tribe are specifically exempted from taxation. In order to make our intention perfectly plain I think the Act ought to be amended so that restricted land exchanged for fee patented land and not transferred to the community should also continue to remain free from taxation just as the restricted land before. (Applause.)

Mr. COLLIER: Now we are nearing eleven o'clock and there will be a new order of business. We have only about four minutes more. We are done with answering question, but I wanted to give one answer which covers a great many questions that have come in. They relate in one way or another to this proviso in land title 3, Section 8, page 31. The matter we have discussed repeatedly. The Bill as drawn gives to the Secretary of the Interior authority to transfer the title of an individual allotment to transfer that to the community and compensation without the consent of the allottee. I have been telling you that we are leading up to a vote on that question as to where you wanted the power to be, whether you want the Secretary to have power to do that, or whether you wanted the Indian to have authority to do it if he wanted to. I am not meaning to say that you will vote on particular proposals in the Bill now, therefore, I am going to pass that over and make an announcement instead. Of course, if you want to vote on this or anything, that is up to the meeting. I am speaking now for the Indian Office. We are going to recommend to the Committees of Congress that this transfer of title by the allottee to the community, this transfer shall be exclusively voluntary and that the compulsion feature shall be stricken out. (Great Applause.) I tell you this as a means of not having to answer a large number of separate questions on that point.

Dr. ROE CLOUD: We come now to that part of the program where we are to hear from the older Indians in their own language, and it has been suggested that because the Sioux delegation is very large, that we hear from two representatives of the Sioux people. I hope you have talked this over among yourselves and have selected your speaker. Each speaker will be allowed five minutes and we understand that it will be put into the English language for the benefit of the people here.

SAM LAPOINTE: I want to mention that the Rosebud Sioux have selected the son of the oldest Chief on our Reservation, Mr. Edgar Quick Bear.

Dr. ROE CLOUD: Interpreter please tell him that when he hears one tap he has only one more minute. When he hears two taps that means it is the end of his speech.

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EDGAR QUICK BEAR (Interpreter, Sam LaPointe): Mr. Chairman, Honorable Commissioner, my friends on the platform and my people— delegates from all over the country. I see a good many good men here. I am glad to see you.

My friends, we of the Indian race are yet very far behind in matters of education, and when it comes down to the thinking faculty, you know that we can not compete with the white man. We are not up to the top notch of educational ability. (Applause—mild.) As far back as the Indian race may recall history, and all the dealings with the Government of the United States; in all the treaties and agreements there has always been inserted one insertion that has been a detriment to the Indians all the way through, and that is the insertion of "at the discretion of the Secretary of the Interior." One of the faults arising from the misunderstandings, etc., of the old treaties and agreements, has been this. We have not had the efficient interpretation of all these treaties in the past. Now, the interpreters will tell us one thing and the real wording of the law when it becomes a law is different from the interpretation, and therefore our people are caused to misunderstand and suffer for it later on. Now, at this meeting, if we are going to take action, transact any business, or come to any agreements, let us have a full understanding. The powers and the authority that the Indian may have and that can be exercised; let us have a full understanding of the relationship that we may have with those powers and the authorities he may gain. There is one thing that I feel thankful for. In the last few minutes of the speaking of Mr. Collier, the proposition is brought up that they will eliminate this giving unlimited power to the Secretary of the Interior as far as Indian matters are concerned. If they would eliminate that, how thankful I would be.

Our fathers have instructed us, our fathers have told us, that we must watch our step, every step; there are hundreds and thousands of unscrupulous white men, deceitful. They will deceive us. (Applause.) (Interpreter speaks.) Now, I want to tell my own people. He said this. "Watch your step—because it has come to light that if we had gone on ahead under the same system that we had been coming under, there was an end to that trail not very far ahead, and wisely, somebody has thought out a new way for us. Now, if we are going to accept this new way be careful, think slow, because your action will not only affect us but for generations to come. I thank you."

Mr. LUKE GILBERT from Cheyenne River rises: Mr. Chairman, I would like to introduce Joseph Long from Cheyenne River Reservation.

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Chairman, Dr. ROE CLOUD: I believe it would be well to take this up in the order they are listed on this sheet of paper. (Someone asks that they be taken up in alphabetical order—slight confusion while several ask for the floor at the same time. Dr. Roe Cloud continues.) We will take them up in the order I have them listed here regardless of alphabetical order.

GENTLEMAN from STANDING ROCK: Mr. Chairman, Rosebud and Pine Ridge are neighboring Reservations. In fact they are the same locality and conditions that prevail there are about the same. They are so close together that we would like to get a representative opinion from the different localities. I would suggest that we hear from Mr. Daniel Grass Rope of Lower Brule. We have a delegation from Standing Rock but we don't want to hog the whole thing.

(Several objections are heard to Mr. Daniel Grass Rope being permitted to speak, but objections are not recognized.)

Mr. DANIEL GRASS ROPE, Lower Brule: First I want to say, that I see some fine men on the platform and I want to thank them for all that they have done. I do not think I ever saw an assembly, white or otherwise, as big as this, and I am glad to meet you all. I see this great gathering here and I am asked to speak and I remember that, and I will remember it, and I remember at the time that I was asked to speak here some time ago that I said this: Now, my friends, I see many faces and I see that they are all Indians. They may not be Sioux but just the same they are all Indians. At that time I said there were two or three things for which I came and in that little short talk I gave the other day I said, "My friends, whatever you do, think of the rising generation because it is coming to the time when we have no place for our rising generation." I was afraid, my friends, that we would grasp this thing in a hurry, take hurried action, and suffer from the results later on. That is why I cautioned my people to go slow. Now I have been hearing the Bill explained and all the good talk and I hear them all through my ears, and I think I understand fairly well what it means. For the last few days you have been discussing and listening to this great proposition before us. When I was selected to come here, before started from home there were a number of people, men and women, who came to me and said this to me, "You go there. You represent a lot of people. Be careful what you do. Use your best judgment, and see that you decide for the best interests of the people at home." Now, my friends, on the platform, I want to address you. All the words that I have heard, my thoughts have been going back to my people at home.

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In generations back, I know, we know, that there was wild game on which we could live and we could always depend upon that. So, in those days I grew up as a buffalo eater and deer meat was common, but I can see now and look around and there is none of that left. When thinking about these things, I come back to this new deal, your program, and then my thoughts change from what they used to be, and if this talk, all they told us, and if this is good, I hope my friends, the other Indians, will all throw in with me and help me now. I have just told you a little while ago, that misunderstandings, the inability to grasp these ideas, was among so many of us who did not know where we were. Now, your plan seems to be to enlarge the areas in which we live and in that area our younger generation will have room to roam and do what they please and this is what I want to say to you. Now, I have advised my people to go slow, and think right, and do what is right. I want to say also to those who are in authority that they advised us to join these communities, and our boys will work in these communities. Our boys are unprepared. There is nothing to work with, and I want you to remember that. Thank you. (Applause.)

Chairman, Dr. ROE CLOUD: Now we come to the next group of speakers, the Blackfeet. We are through with the Sioux Indians. If this man (meaning Mr. Grass Rope) is through, they have lost their chance for further speaking.

GENTLEMAN from BLACKFEET: We take pleasure in introducing Rides At The Door, representing the Blackfeet.

VOICE from AUDIENCE: Mr. Chairman. We have a spokesman from Sisseton and would like to have the chance to get up and talk. He will speak for Sisseton and Devils Lake, practically the same tribe.

Chairman, Dr. ROE CLOUD: We can not allow him to speak at this time, but if we have time later, we will give him a chance to speak.

RIDES AT THE DOOR, Blackfeet: (Applause.) Natural Americans and my brothers, who are assembled in this great Congress, and to the gentlemen representing the Interior Department.

I hope this great assembly will sympathize with me for this reason. That I am handicapped. I do not understand your English language and I do not know how to write.

We are here because we have gone over the past. When we reach this crisis of our lives we want to be careful always and want to listen very closely. We always want to use our best judgment to forge ahead, and to use it in that way.

The Blackfeet Nation, whom I represent, have cautioned me

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thus, to listen to everything that is said here and any move that is made in this place, to do it very wisely. I have been here and I have listened very carefully to the things that have been said here, and now I know what to do for myself and my people. We have been advised by the representative of the Interior Department that community policy which means a new history and a new event in our lives now forthcoming. If we stand by the policy as it is advocated to the Indians of the Northwest—if what is said here is true, it is a word of salvation in our future lives and for our children. If the things that have been said to us here in this assembly, as I have stated before, If they are purely the truth, if the ideas of the program are true in every way, shape or form, it is the best thing that we could abide ourselves by. I have no other way if it is true. I have no other system, no other road by which I could go around it, but I must go into it.

One of the most important things that brought me here is what I am going to say to you today. My people now own a large area of oil land and we have now on our Reservation three producing wells, and that is the reason I came here, and I want some law or protection whereby I can always hold that property intact so that no white man can take it away from me. (Applause.)

There is one thing that we have here, an opportunity which many of us do not have, and that is the opportunity of being here with these gentlemen from the Interior Department. You know we can not always go to Washington, but today we are all in Washington with these gentlemen.

I would like to say to these gentlemen who are here today, that I am holding my property in my hand just that, and with their protection and support, their guidance, we are not going to let any white man do like that to us. Now, my friends, my brothers, Americans of this country. When we return to our people on various and different Reservations, when we get back there, let us call a big medicine and let us call on the Great Spirit to support our wishes and those of the Interior Department.

GUS HEADRICK: Do I understand the Chair that each delegation of the various tribes are allowed to select two speakers from each delegation to speak.

Dr. ROE CLOUD: One speaker is to be selected from each delegation except in the case of the Sioux. They will select two speakers on account of there being eight divisions represented from the Sioux country.

GUS HEADRICK: Our delegation are all English speaking and therefore will not need interpreters and we can turn our rights over to some of the other delegations.

•

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Dr. ROE CLOUD: The Crow delegation is next on the roster.

SAM LAPOINT: Mr. Chairman, I happen to know both of those people and the speaker can talk better English than Jasper Long, the interpreter. I would suggest that he do his own talking.

JASPER LONG: I have been asked by this man to interpret his speech.

Dr. ROE CLOUD: If any of the speakers can speak English and does not need an interpreter I suggest that they do so as it will save time.

JASPER LONG: There are in our delegation old people that cannot understand English. He requested that I interpret for him.

ARNOLD COSTA, Speaker for the Crow delegation: Mr. Chairman and members of the Interior Department and fellow American Indians. I am glad to be here and express my sentiments. In years past we did not meet in a Congress of this kind, and our wishes today have come true. In all these years we have come under the administration of the Indian Bureau where regulations have been prescribed and we have not been given any voice in the matter and at this time we are given this opportunity to voice our sentiments in the regulations to be put into the Bill. I do not want to take up too much time at this Congress as there are delegations from other Reservations that wish the opportunity of saying a few words and I am very thankful to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs in giving me an opportunity to say that we should be excluded from the Bill. We have a number of buffalo eaters on our Reservation, since the younger generation has been up at this age of time, it was for that reason that I am speaking. It is at this time that we understood that this tribe should be excluded from this proposed Bill. I do mean to say that any action should not be taken upon as our final decision at this present Council, because when I was selected as a delegate I was not given the authority to make any final decision in respect to the proposed Bill but we are going to take it home to our people and let our people decide and give their decision on this question. On behalf of my delegation I wish to express my thanks to the Indian Commissioner and his staff and also to the Indian people in this assembly. That is all.

Dr. ROE CLOUD: The next speaker is from Fort Berthold.

ARTHUR MAN DAN: There are two Gros Ventre Tribes, one is up in Montana and the other tribe is from the Fort Berthold Reservation, although they are different tribes. We have selected Chief Drags Wolf to speak for the Fort Berthold delegation. I will attempt to interpret for him.

CHIEF DRAGS WOLF, Fort Berthold: I have had the pleasure

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of being called on to say a few words by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs to this great assembly of the Plains people. We have heard the deliberations on this Bill for a few days now. The past administrations did not fulfill their promises. The Indians did not have a voice in the proposed legislation. Even if they did they were never carried out. It was always subject to Congress.

I want to say this much. On all the Reservation there has been about 360 allotments that have been sold right back to the Indians. On these allotments we have put on a program where we have established our homes, our barns, and improvements that are necessary.

There is one objectional point that I want to bring up in this new proposed measure and that is inheritance.

Today, the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and all his staff here are sitting on the platform. I want to say that we do not know whether or not we own the improvements on our own land. They may bury us six feet under the ground and we are not sure that that land can be inherited for future generations so that we can lie in peace under this six feet of soil.

There is another thing I would like to be informed about. There are over 360 allotments which have been sold directly to the Indians and that applies mostly to our children. They have paid for those lands in cash value. When this new government system comes, we would like to find out whether these children are going to be reimbursed for whatever they have paid for these lands.

This branch of the Government, the Indian Bureau, is our protector and guardian. Eighty-three years ago we made peace with the United States Government and we have abided by the treaty but the Government has not. When we have brought suit against the Government there was nothing in that treaty to provide for giving this money back to the Indians. They (the Government) went to work and every cent that was spent, the Government took it back. Since then the Government and the Indian Bureau are trying to rectify all the evils of the past and we would like to be rectified.

There are only a few complaints that I had brought here about these treaty rights and this proposed measure. We are considering this proposed measure from day to day and we would like to take home what has been said in the minutes of the meeting and what has been explained here in the last few days and tell it to our people at home and let them decide on this proposed measure. We will abide by the wishes of the majority of the people and not the minority.

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Mr. COLLIER: I just want to reassure the Chief there is nothing in our minds and there is nothing in the Bill to keep the children from inheriting the house and barn and stock, the improvements, the property. What the Chief wants is the thing he will get.

I don't want to take any more time from the old man.

Dr. ROE CLOUD: The white man in the years gone by and even today is rushing everything. That is why he has tried to rush the American Indian into civilization long before he was prepared. Fort Belknap.

The BOY, Fort Belknap: My friends, white men and Indians here in this assembly: I greet you.

Away back in 1855 my forefathers made a treaty with the United States Government and one of the objects of that treaty was to make peace with the white man, so that there would be peace from then on. The treaty made in 1855 was an extending of the right hand of friendship by the white man and the Indians accepted it.

They have been living under those conditions ever since although they were very trying. Many of the promises made to them in that treaty have been broken. After that treaty was made and signed and excused this souvenir was made (indicating what he holds in his hand) with a picture of two hands shaking together and two peace pipes. That represented the things that we had to do, that we were to be friends all the time. The descendants of those forefathers down to me always tried to live that way.

We are assembled here today something on that same order to keep on being peaceful and try and think up something that will do us good in the future.

According to that treaty of 1855, the white man put on a piece of paper certain things that he was to do along with what the Indian had to do. It wasn't long before the white man came down and ignored and tramped on his side of that agreement. And since that day he has laid down a lot of one-sided rules and regulations and laws that he compels the Indians to live under because they are hopelessly in the minority. When they make an attempt to have these one-sided laws corrected, the white man grabs him by the face and turns him right about face.

I have served my people a good many years now and this is one of the things I have tried to do—to change those one-sided laws. But I have failed because I have met with the same opposition. I have looked around and planned and laid awake nights hoping for some friend who would help us. Today in this assembly I think I am facing face to face with people who are our friends. I have always heard that there was one particular white man who

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has fought in behalf of the Indians for a long time and today I think I see him in the midst of these white men seated on the platform. And that particular white man has a program that this assembly is considering and getting an explanation of and this program is what has come from this white man's experience over a long period of years.

This white man has a program which he is presenting to us which is very good as a whole, to try to remedy these sad conditions under which we are living today.

As representative of the Fort Belknap Indians I was told to listen closely to everything that took place in this Congress. I am going to take the news back to my people, everything that I heard. But, I say that personally I think it is a very good program as a whole.

(Asks the Chair for permission to say something else in one breath to the Indians.)

My friends: I want to tell you something. This something is one of the downturns of the Indian. When they get assembled in council or some meeting they always disagree. There is always a friction and there is no co-operation and there is no united action and there is no serious thought given to the question that caused that particular meeting. From now on, let us try and co-operate. Let us try to work as a whole, lay our individual desires aside and work for something that concerns everybody. In this assembly there is a wire in the middle that is not the dividing line. We are all one because we are Indians. There is another group of Indians who use their privileges as full-fledged citizens of the United States and have squandered their homes and are now penniless. Don't exclude that class of Indians.

Dr. ROE CLOUD: Rocky Boy next.

MAN from AUDIENCE: I am a delegate from the Shoshone delegation. We have seemed to overlook that we have a tribe of Indians from Wyoming who have not been given a chance to express their views. We would like to give them a chance—the Arapahoe from Wyoming.

Dr. ROE CLOUD: Just as soon as we get through they can speak. We will give the speaker five minutes.

SAMATT, Rocky Boy: I have been here four days to listen to this Congress. They say they have set the table and that everything is on it. When you eat too much you got to get medicine to cure you. He is going to doctor us. That is the first thing I am setting on the table. Every year we want the chance to take the cake and pies. We got to have a man to help us do that. We got to have a man who has the education to help me from be-

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hind. I have been trying quite a few times. I am tied up just like I was staked at the rope. I hope you have good luck on your trip.

Dr. ROE CLOUD: Now the Arapahoe chief. Chief Groesbeck.

Chief GROESBECK: My friends: Representing this Reservation and the different tribes, I am merely wanting to ask a few questions in regard to my Reservation that I do not understand.

Back in 1904, the Government sent a representative from Washington to buy, or have the Tribe of the Shoshone and Arapahoe cede, a large portion of what is known as Big Wind River, located in Shoshone Reservation in Wyoming. There were agreements made between the Government and tribes located there and only two of those agreements have been fulfilled. Now I am asking the Honorable Commissioner Collier to see about the other agreements that have not been fulfilled. Look to that.

I, as one of the representatives at that time, signed and consented to cede that portion. In one of the agreements there was to be a certain portion of monies received from this portion toward the educational use of the Indians of those particular tribes. In one of the agreements there was to be a certain portion of the money set aside toward building an irrigation canal from streams flowing or originating on these Reservations, but it was stipulated in the agreement that the Indian was to have a free use of the water. Up to this time, we understand that the water is a lien on the land. That is the question I wish to ask the Commissioner to explain. At the present time the ceded portion of that Reservation is lying idle, not being occupied, not being taken up, and I wish to ask the Department of the Interior Secretary to withdraw all the portions not being occupied at the present time back to the Indian status.

Dr. ROE CLOUD: It is almost dinner time and these questions that have been raised by the Chief will be answered after dinner. Now I call for the last speaker—from the Winnebago jurisdiction that has several Sioux areas in it. Is the speaker here?

MAN from AUDIENCE: Mr. Chairman: Have you omitted the Turtle Mountain Chippewa?

Dr. ROE CLOUD: We omitted them because of lack of time. (Please remain seated. This is the last speaker. We will be through in a few minutes.)

Mr. KENICK, Turtle Mountain Reservation: I am glad to meet the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. My greatest desire was to see him. I am a poor man. I am just as glad to see the Commissioner as I would be to see him in Washington. The

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reason why I am so glad to meet him is because of what I have
heard which is all for the benefit of the people. Of course, when
I get up they all look at me as a poor man.

Upon my return the people will be looking to me to find out
what I have learned from this meeting. I will tell my people what
this great man has told me.

By the way I understand these Bills, the Commissioner of In-
dian Affairs wants to help me. The reason I am glad to meet
him is that I have seen the Bill which he has presented to me.
I am going to report it to the people that have sent me and I
am pretty sure they will be pleased with it.

Concerning this self-government I am not quite ready to accept
it yet because my people are just starting. I desire to say I
will recommend to extend it a few years. That is my desire. Thank
you.

Dr. ROE CLOUD: The meeting will resume here at this hotel
at 1:45 p. m. for the afternoon session. If business is not completed
there will be an evening session. We stand adjourned for the din-
ner hour.

AFTERNOON SESSION

The afternoon session of the Plains Congress brought to order
by Chairman Woehlke at 1:45 p. m.

Mr. Brown of Blackfeet requests five minutes to make an an-
nouncement from the platform. Granted. Members of the Black-
feet tribe come on the stage and announced that they are going to
adopt Commissioner Collier into their tribe. One of the tribesmen
speaks:

My friends, fellow Americans. There are several different tribes
assembled in this auditorium. You people are a little too slow,
we are going to adopt the Commissioner into the Blackfeet In-
dians. (Applause.) And we are going to have him a leader in
this community plan. Now, our Honorable Commissioner, when we
adopt him in this tribe, we expect him to do more for us. (Ap-
plause.) The name which we are going to give our leader here,
and you may call him by his Indian name when you meet him, is
Spotted Eagle. That name, Spotted Eagle, represents the Indian
Reservations, the way they are checkerboarded. We hope that those
spots will be rubbed off so that every Indian Reservation will be
all in one spot. The Commissioner is going to be our Chairman.
We further invite the Commissioner to come out in our Reser-
vation, which is bordering on the Glacier National Park. When

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he comes out there he can have a snow ball in one hand and a
bunch of flowers on the other hand. (Here they sing a native
song, closing the ceremony, after presenting Commissioner Col-
lier with a native head dress.)

CHAIRMAN WOEHLKE: I believe we are all greatly apprecia-
tive of the honor the Commissioner has been shown by the Black-
feet tribe. I just want to suggest that if there is another tribe that
wants to honor the Assistant Commissioner they might name him
the man who is silent in all languages. Now, I believe that the
Commissioner wishes to continue where the session was left off
at 12:00 o'clock this morning.

Mr. LaPAOINT, Rosebud: Mr. Chairman: Just two minutes
please. There is something that we would like to insert into the
record at this time. It won't take but just two minutes. Every
Sioux Reservation, so far; I do not know of one Reservation among
the Sioux that has actually accepted the program, but this is
the position that we are in so far as the Sioux are concerned;
we want to go on record that we have all been instructed to take
the matter back to our people for their final decision; that our
delegates are not taking any action in this matter here. Thank
you.

Mr. WOEHLKE: That will go in the record.

Mr. COLLIER: There is only one thing on which we are going
to invite a show of hands at this meeting. It hasn't got any-
thing to do with this Bill. We are going to ask you whether
you would be interested in having this Plains Indian Congress
become a regular annual gathering. I can't promise that it would
be, because we have to get the funds for paying the expenses,
but if the Plains tribes desire it, we will try to get the funds so
that the Congress may become an annual event hereafter. (In-
terpreted by Mr. LaPoint.)

Mr. WOEHLKE: Now, I would like to ask those who are in
favor of having this Plains Congress made an annual affair to
stand up.

(Great number stand.)

Opposed are requested to stand. (One stands.)

Carried. That one delegate had the courage of his convictions.

CHAIRMAN of BLACKFEET COUNCIL: He can't help himself,
his name is Standing Bear.

Mr. COLLIER: We will now take up the question asked just
before lunch and then I am going to pass on to a matter of great
final importance. He asked two or three question and I will try
to answer them. One question was about the ceded lands which
were signed away by treaty to be disposed to whites, but they

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were not disposed of and now they are lying idle. Under existing
laws there is nothing we can do about that. Under the new Bill
if it becomes law, then undisposed, ceded and surplus lands will
be restored to the Tribe. Another question, was connected with the
use that had been made of tribal funds derived from the Session
of this land or from some land cession. Where the treaty promised
that they would be used for education but they were not used,
but they were used for something else. Answer: I do not know
about the particular facts, but it sounds like what we have been
doing all over. I assume that the money was diverted to adminis-
trative costs, just as another hundred million dollars of tribal
funds had been diverted in the last 34 years. This Bill would not
correct a thing that took place in the past. It would only pre-
vent that kind of thing from happening in the future. For the
past happenings the tribe would have to seek redress in the Court
of Claims. Then the other question was about a water system
where the Government had promised free water but a charge
has been piled upon the Indians for that water. Answer: Under
an act passed two years ago, the Leavitt Act, we have power to
cancel the reimbursable debts which have been placed on Indian
tribal and allotted lands. These reimbursable charges have totaled
several million dollars against the various Indian lands. To date
about four million dollars of reimbursable charges have already
been written off under the Leavitt Act. We shall proceed and
write off more of them. The new Bill would prohibit the Govern-
ment from making reimbursable charges against Indian lands
except with the consent of the Indian communities. Now I am
going to turn aside from the answering of written question for
a few minutes in order to answer what may be called an unasked
question that is in the minds of many people, and I am now going
to address myself not only and primarily to you here but rather
to the Indians all over the country and to their white friends.
First I want you to let me tell you about the Indians in another
part of the country for a reason that you will soon understand.
I refer to the Indians of the State of Oklahoma. The Oklahoma
Indians possessed twenty three million acres of land before allot-
ment. All of their land except about three million acres is now
lost, and nearly half of that three million acres have been brought
under taxation by a special act of Congress. There are 100,000
members of the Five Civilized Tribes of Oklahoma and they all
got land. Our latest information is that 72,000 of them have now
lost all their land. Many thousands of the Oklahoma Indians now
live in desperate poverty, and in addition to losing their land
and their money they have been victimized in all kinds of cruel

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ways in Oklahoma. Probably the Indians in Eastern Oklahoma are
worse off than the rest of the Indians in the whole country. This
Bill we are discussing extends protection to the Oklahoma Indians
and there is a companion Bill, the Howard Bill, which extends
other protection to them. Now I said yesterday in the meeting in
the Civic Hall, in the Auditorium, that we all wanted the greatest
freedom of expression and opinion about all these Indian matters.
We do want all views to have the fullest expressions whether we
agree with them or not and in the same way, we who are speaking
for the Administration feel free to state our views and state the
facts as we understand them. There is discussion of this Indian
Bill going on all over the United States among the whites as
well as the Indians, and in a sense we are compelled to discuss the
Bill before the American public. I now want to read to you a dis-
patch that went out to the newspapers all over the country, an
Associated Press Dispatch. It bears the date of February 24, and
it went out from the headquarters of the Five Civilized Tribes in
Oklahoma, Muskogee. From that area where the Indians are in
the condition that I have described to you. I ask you your very close
attention to what I have read, this Associated Press Dispatch.

"Dr. Lindquist Denounces Collier's Indian Policy." Dr. E. E. Lindquist of Lawrence, Kans., a former adviser to Indian department officials, said here today that Commissioner John Collier's new Indian Bill is "Societalism and Communism in the rankest sense."

Interpreter Sam LaPOINT: Please explain communism.

Mr. COLLIER: I will continue to read.

"It is a total reversal of the former policy of the Indian department in tending to bring Indians into the general body of citizenship" said Dr. Lindquist, who is in the Five-Civilized Tribes territory for a week's visit. "It would put them back on reservations and in blankets."

He said Oklahoma has solved the Indian problem better than any
other state and is most threatened by Collier's new bill which, Dr.
Lindquist contended, proposes to give the Indian commissioner author-
ity to set up communistic settlements, not subject to state courts or
laws, but answerable only to a new federal Indian court of seven judges.

I have read this to you because it represents what has been ex-
pressed by other people besides my good friend, Dr. Lindquist,
who is here today, who is with us now, and who gives expression to
a view that is not confined to himself. And that is the only reason
why I read this to you and why I shall reply to it.

The American people have never adopted a communistic or so-
cialistic philosophy or policy, and if this Indian policy is described
as being communism or socialism, then the American people will
be against it. Several years ago the Indian Bureau of that day
was promoting legislation to take away the land titles belonging

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to some of our Southwestern tribes, the Pueblo Tribes. The plan was to take their titles and give them to the whites. These tribes organized for self-defense. They carried their case and their battle to Congress and into the courts. In the middle of this battle the Indian Bureau gave out a statement that these tribes were being financed by Soviet Moscow. They were guilty of communism and socialism in trying to hold on to their lands. Down the years every so often this thing flames up again that the effort of the Indians to hold on to their lands is communism or socialism, and now we find that this Administration, because it is determined to help Indians hold on to their lands, is guilty of rank communism and socialism.

Now, we will just make a series of straight propositions and I will stand on them. This United States government has an obligation to its Indians. It is the guardian and they are its wards. To assert that obligation and fulfill it is plain honest Americanism and not communism. It is not communistic to extend the trust period on our Indian lands and keep you free from taxes. It is not communistic to extend to you the constitutional rights possessed by the other citizens of the United States. It is not communistic to extend to you the right to organize for mutual aid. It is not communistic to allow you to have the same instruments of power which are possessed by all of the other people, but not by you.

Local self-government was not instituted by the Communists, but is the oldest institution in the United States, founded in the New England towns of long ago. White people all over the United States own land in partnerships and companies and corporations. It is not communism to allow Indians to do the same if they want to. The jurisdiction over the Indians by the United States Government was declared by Congress and by the Supreme Court of the United States more than one hundred years ago. When we propose that that jurisdiction shall be continued and that the Indians shall not be turned over to the state of Oklahoma or any state, and to the tax collectors of Oklahoma and the other States, we are not proposing something that we learned from Russia or any other communist place, but are following the counsel of John Marshall, the greatest of the Supreme Court Judges and the policy of the United States for the last hundred years. If it were true that civil constitutional rights are communism, and that old-fashioned American home rule was communism, and that all of the other rights and advantages which Indians are entitled to; if they are all communism, then there would be nothing for the Indians to do but become communists. It is not true and these rights and privi-

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leges have nothing to do with communism and therefore the Indians do not need to become communists. Those who tell the Indians that for them to assert their rights is to be communists are inciting the Indians to become communists. (Applause.) And, as for holding up the Oklahoma Indian record as the model of what we want for the rest of the Indians, that is condemning the Indians of the United States to ruin and humiliation and extinction. I have spoken, as I said, not primarily to you here, but in order that my words may be carried on the wires to the Indians over the whole country. But also I am speaking to you, that there will be increasing efforts to frighten you Indians and to stampede you. Throughout the local communities around the Indian Reservations there are interests that do not want the Indian property protected and you all know that. (Applause.) Your interests are, of necessity, in opposition to many local interests around you. You want to keep your lands, and of course there are other people who want to get your lands. That is inevitable. You want your lands to be exempt from taxation, and of course there are people who want to put taxes on them. You want to have the capital to put stock on your own lands and yourself enjoy the profits of the cattle business, and, of course there are white cattle men and lessees and banks that don't want you to do it.

I think we have made clear that we do not want you to follow us blindly or believe anything we tell you without investigating it. And, when you go back to your local communities, remember that you ought not to follow anybody else blindly or believe what he tells you without your own investigation. (Applause.)

Mr. LAPOINT: Mr. Chairman, will you give Francis Red Tomahawk of Standing Rock the floor for several minutes. He has a resolution which he would like to read to the convention. (Granted.)

Mr. RED TOMAHAWK from Standing Rock: After having been here these four days in these councils I felt that we had a duty to discharge and with that motive in view I drew up a resolution to be considered by you and I would like to have it passed unanimously.

### Resolution

Whereas it is the sense of the entire group of delegates assembled here in Rapid City from the various Reservations represented in the "Great Plains Congress" held at the Indian School at the above named city, that we owe our obligations to the Honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs and his staff and to Superintendent Staley of the Rapid City Indian School and his efficient corps of employees, together with the Boy Scouts, and last but not the least the girls of the institution who gave of their time unselfishly to make our stay here one long to be remembered, and,

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Whereas, in recognition of each and every service and courtesy extended in our behalf we hereby unanimously thank each and every person for their untiring efforts to make our stay as near home-like as possible, that we could not receive anywhere, service superior to that which has been accorded us while we were here, now there be it.

Resolved, That we again heartily thank you all, that words fail to fully convey to you all our deep and heartfelt thanks and appreciation and may the "Great Spirit" who rules the Universe keep and guide you safely through all your lives, is the wish of your friends, the Delegates to the "Great Plains Congress," held at the Indian School in Rapid City, South Dakota, this 5th day of March, 1934.

HENRY STANDING BEAR,
Chairman, Pine Ridge Delegation.

C. T. ROWLAND,
Chairman, Tongue River Council.

MELCOLM MITCHELL,
Chairman, Rocky Boy Council.

ALBERT HEMINGER,
Chairman, Sisseton Council.

ARTHUR MANDAN,
Chairman, Fort Berthold Council.

CHARLES RAMSEY,
Chairman, Standing Rock Council.

GEORGE EASTMAN,
Chairman, Flandreau Council.

RUSSELL HARRISON,
Chairman, Crow Creek Council.

JOSEPH W. BROWN,
Chairman, Blackfeet Council.

GUS M. HEDDERICK
Chairman, Fort Peck Council.

ELWOOD HARLAN,
Chairman, Omaha Council.

ED W. PENISKA,
Chairman, Ponca Council.

JOHN BUCKMAN,
Chairman, Fort Belknap Council.

CHARLES M. DUSKELL,
Chairman, Shoshone Tribal
Council.

JOHN B. AZURE No 1,
Chairman, Turtle Mountain
Council.

LOUIS MYRICK,
Chairman, Fort Totten Council.

GEORGE YELLOW,
Chairman, Lower Brule Council.

WILLIAM WHIPPLE,
Chairman, Santee Council.

LUKE GILBERT,
Chairman, Cheyenne River
Council.

SAM LAPOINT,
Chairman, Rosebud Council.

MAX BIG MAN,
Chairman, Crow Tribal Council.

FRANK BEAVER,
Chairman, Winnebago Council.

Delegates, "Great Plains Congress."

Mr. WOEHLKE: I am not a member of this Congress. I am only the Chairman, but I would suggest, if you will accept it, an amendment to this resolution to include in your gratitude with special force, the two young women and the young man who, for four days now have been embalming our words; who have been working harder than anybody else in this Congress and who, within ten minutes after you have said your words, had them down on paper. Will you include this in your resolution?

Mr. Red Tomahawk agrees to have the amendment included.

Gentleman asks to delay the procedure a moment to interpret to the Blackfeet. Granted by the Chair.

Mr. WOEHLKE: All those in favor of Mr. Red Tomahawk's resolution will answer by saying "aye." Those opposed. The "aye's" have it.

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(Mr. Red Tomahawk still having the floor, continues.) Mr. Chairman. I have a letter here for the consideration of the delegates of this Congress also.

Rapid City, S. Dak.,
March 5, 1934.

Hon. John Collier,
Commissioner of Indian Affairs,
Rapid City, South Dakota.

Dear Mr. Commissioner: We, the combined delegates from the various reservations, assembled here attending the "Great Plains Congress" do hereby take this opportunity to extend to you our appreciation and gratitude for your effort to make it possible for us to gather here with you to discuss the important legislative matters proposed for our future welfare, for your every manifestation of your great interest in our affairs: For your sincerity in all your efforts toward making us better citizens and the preservation of all that is good within us; for the freedom you had accorded in exercising our native customs, and particularly for the great opportunity by your proposed legislation to better our conditions in every respect.

May the same "Great Spirit" who has taken care of his Red Children, bless you in your efforts to enable us to get on our feet in acquiring civilized lives, education and Christianity is the wish of

Your Friends,

JOSEPH W. BROWN.
ARTHUR MANDAN.
MAX BIG MAN.
CHARLES RAMSEY.
GEORGE EASTMAN.
RUSSELL HARRISON.
GUS M. HEDDERICK.
GEORGE YELLOW.

FRANK BEAVER.
ELWOOD HARLAN.
JOHN B. AZURE, No. 1.
MALCOLM MITCHELL.
ED W. PENISKA.
LUKE GILBERT.
SAM LAPOINT.
WILLIAM WHIPPLE.

Mr. MANDAN: I want to ask that we give the Sioux interpreters as well as some interpreters over here who have been interpreting on these last few days a vote of thanks.

Mr. WOEHLKE: You have heard the remarks. Do you want to extend a vote of thanks to the indefatigable interpreters who have been serving you so beautifully without cost to you for the last few days? All those who want to include the gratitude of the Congress in a resolution of thanks, please say "aye."

(Appeared to be unanimous.)

Mr. WOEHLKE: It is done.

Mr. LAPOINT: We want to include Mr. Case, our attorney, who has come out here. We want to thank him.

Mr. WOEHLKE: You have heard the letter which Mr. Red Tomahawk has just read to you. What is the pleasure of the Congress? Do you want to authorize the chairman of the various delegations to sign that letter? I suggest that it might perhaps be the best way to have every delegation which agrees with the spirit of this letter to authorize its Chairman to sign that letter.

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Mr. Red Tomahawk informs me that the letter will be in the school room in the North wing and that all those Chairmen of the various delegations who are authorized by their members to sign that letter are requested to step in to that room before they go and put their signatures down on the paper. Now what is the pleasure of this Congress? Would you like to have the Commissioner and his staff answer more of the questions which have been handed to us, or would you perfer to have your various delegations speak further and state their opinions concerning this Bill to the rest of the delegates and to the Commissioner? What would you prefer to have us do?

Mr. STANDING BEAR: Mr. Chairman. I would request the Chairman to continue these questions that have been filed. There have been a number of questions prepared by the various delegations. A number of them have not been answered.

FRANK WILSON: To eliminate a great deal of time that would be consumed here on these questions, I wish to have the last part of this Bill turned over to the attorneys, Mr. Ralph Case, Mr. Hastings Robinson and Mr. A. G. Granger. It will eliminate a great deal of discussion if these attorneys can take up this matter.

Mr. WOEHLKE: If Mr. Case and the other attorneys will come to the Office of the Indian Bureau in Washington, our attorneys will be glad to talk with them.

Mr. ELWOOD HARLAN: I think we have submitted questions to Mr. Shepard the other night which I believe very different from any of these Sioux matters here. We have been here three days and we would like to hear something about our Nebraska problem.

Mr. WOEHLKE: We have those Winnebago questions right here and if it is the pleasure of this Congress, we will proceed to answer them now.

Mr. WILSON: I want that committee to take the action this evening because they are all here, not at Washington, but here.

Mr. WOEHLKE: Some of our attorneys have left, but it will be done tonight.

We will now proceed to discuss some of the questions submitted by the Winnebago delegation. I would like to point out to the members of the Congress that a great many questions have been answered two or three times and that we have more questions on the same points before us. All these answers will appear in the record which is to be printed by Dr. Roe Cloud's Haskell Institute and which will reach you in a short time. You will also have available a transcript of the hearings before the House Committee on

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Indian Affairs in a short time. In this Hearing a great many of the same questions which you are asking have been asked by the Members of Congress and have been answered in far greater detail than we could answer them. So, from the record here and the record of the House Hearings and the record of future Congresses, you will be able to find an answer to every possible conceivable question that you could ask. I just wanted to bring that to your attention.

Now, I think we will proceed to the Winnebago questions.

Mr. COLLIER: Several of your delegates have told me that there is a general wish among the delegations to hold a general meeting tonight just for the Indians in order to talk everything over. If that is your desire, I think that is the thing to do. I think, however, it should be determined so as to enable us to decide what else is to be done.

Mr. LAPOINTE: I think that is a misunderstanding. The party who came to me at noon to make the request had in mind pleasure. A dance is what they want. They want to wind up with a big dance but we did not know what your plans are. If you have planned for a night session we will have that, but if not they want to use the gymnasium for a dance.

Mr. COLLIER: That is for you to decide. We will be here, but maybe everybody is tired out.

Dr. ROE CLOUD: Now, does the Chair understand that the Congress wants the answering of questions continued by the Commissioner. If so, now he will proceed.

Mr. COLLIER: The Winnebago delegation has submitted thirteen questions. They are different from most of the other questions in that they call for an expression of opinion rather than a statement of fact. I shall try to answer them just as briefly as it is possible.

The first question is this: What does the experience of the best educated Indians prove? Did they receive more help on segregated Reservations or away from them? Did they get more help from the Reservation or off the Reservation?

ANSWER: I do not know what it proves. In the past the Indians have gotten their education mostly from non-Reservation boarding schools. Some of them have gone off to college. Some of the best brains are found among the Indians and among the people who have lived all their lives on the Reservation, so I do not know how to answer that by yes or no. I would like to state what it seems to me ought to be looked forward to. We ought too try to have real good schools near the homes of the Indians first, and then when the Indian young man or woman wants to go ahead with educa-

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tion, we ought to enable them to go on in places like Haskell where Dr. Roe Cloud is in charge, or into the agricultural colleges and universities, medical schools, and nursing schools, but I believe that the home, the family and the home, are the beginning of life and that they are important to every child. Now the next question is similar. Do we need any legislation for the old people, or rather should we look forward and do what is best for future generations? I answer this, that it is quite clear that we need new legislation for old people and the young people. Third question. Shall we again build on worn out traditions and superstitions, or on an enlightened civilization? Answer: I will have to preach you a sermon if I go ahead on this.

FRANK WILSON of Pine Ridge, S. Dak.: We object to those questions because they are taking up our time and deal with things that do not pertain to our discussions.

ELWOOD HARLAND: I believe those questions were asked by the Winnebago Indians. I think Dr. Roe Cloud knows about them. They took them when we had our meeting the other night at the dining hall.

Dr. ROE CLOUD: He is referring to the very same paper that was taken from me the other night. Most of them are expressions of opinion and have very little to do with this.

Mr. COLLIER: (Continuing to read questions.) Question No. 12. Who will support the old people after their lands have been sold to the community and no more rental received?

Mr. HARLAND: Mr. Collier, I handed the Omaha questions to Mr. Shepard and they were in pencil. I was the Chairman of the group meeting that night in that hall. We are different from these people in allotment laws. We offer them because they are different land titles. On the Winnebago and Omaha Reservation under the Brown Bill of 1916 the trust lands are taxable.

Dr. ROE CLOUD: On the Winnebago and the Omaha Reservation under the Brown Bill of 1916 the lands are taxable. The question that was expressed the other night was this—Since the Omaha Tribe was not allotted under the law of 1887 like other tribes, but allotted under a different act of Congress, does this new Bill cover the Winnebago and Omaha Indians?

Mr. COLLIER: It makes no difference. This Bill would cover them all.

Mr. HARLAND: Will it take a special act to repeal the tax law of December 30, 1916?

Mr. STEWART: Yesterday afternoon at the Auditorium one of your delegates came to me with some penciled questions. I would

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like to have that man stand up. (Frank Beaver, Winnebago Indian, stands up. Mr. Stewart continues.) I am now working on this and drafting a new Bill to fit the Omaha and Winnebago land alone.

Mr. HARLAND: When I get home that is one question the Indians will want to know, whether this new Bill would repeal that Bill?

Mr. STEWART: Another question raised was concerning title to some accretion land.

Mr. HARLAND: I asked another question. This is a special act of Congress of May 11, 1912 and that land was to be sold and proceeds divided equally to the children living on the date of the passage of the act. This act was amended in 1925. Would we have to get special legislation to repeal that act?

Mr. STEWART: Special legislation is not necessary in this case.

RALPH H. CASE: Mr. Chairman, I am the attorney for the Winnebago as well as the Sioux. We are studying legislation now to repeal the Brown Act which affects the Winnebago and Omaha lands regardless of the fact that this new Bill is being proposed. Mr. Stewart—will you in your repeal legislation put in there a provision for the repayment to the Winnebago and Omaha people for the taxes that have been collected from them illegally?

Mr. STEWART: I suggest that Major Case and I get together in Washington on that point and work out something together.

Dr. ROE CLOUD: The Chair wants to say that your remarks are very much in point and also that of Mr. Case and I hope that repayment provisions will be made in this new Bill.

Mr. WOEHLKE: I would like to interpose at this time.

As you are also seen in the educational section of this Bill, provision is made for the encouragement of native Indian artists when you people have a great many talented young artists who need encouragement, for instance, there is among the Northern Cheyenne a young man, D. C. Wheeler, who has painted a portrait of the Northern Cheyenne Chief, Victor Little Chief, and he has asked that this portrait be presented to the Commissioner in appreciation from the Northern Cheyenne.

Mr. COLLIER: I want to most heartily thank Mr. Wheeler for his gift and through him to thank the Northern Cheyenne. The picture will be sent to Washington and will there be looked at by a great many people, and in acknowledging this picture I would like to remind you all of a fact which is that a number of the most famous and greatest painters living in the United States today are Indians. What I mean is, that the people who know the art of Europe and the art of China and Japan consider that some of you

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Indian artists are great artists and compare favorably with a great number in China and Japan.

I want to remind you also that in some parts of the Indian country a very large income is received by the Indians from their works of art. In ordinary years, the Navaho Indians receive an income of more than a million dollars every year from their blan-kets and their turquoise jewelry. There are many hundreds and perhaps thousands of your young men and women who, with the proper chance for training in the arts, can go out in the world, and establish themselves in the matter of income and with the respect of the whole country. It is one of the purposes of this Bill and of the present administration both to extend this educational opportunit-y to your young people, and to organize the market for your arts and craft products so that you can see advantageously all over the world.

I know that your are all feeling fatigued and you are certainly tired of hearing from me. I am perfectly willing to remain here and answer questions without end. It might be better if they are answered to the delegations that are asking them rather than to the whole audience, and I want to say that we hope you will not consider that you are bound by courtesy to come here again tonight and listen to us. The work connected with this new legislation must go on through weeks and months ahead, back in every one of your own tribes. You will have, and you will read over all of these pro-ceedings here. Already the hearings, the printed hearings of the House Committee on Indian Affairs, have been sent to your dif-ferent Reservations. You will find them there when you get home, and there is no possibility of exhausting this subject even though we stay here till midnight and even though we remain here the rest of this week, and I think that probably you would rather adjourn at an early hour. I do not know. We are at your service. I want to try, finally to make clear to you some things about the Bill and how we are proposing to proceed with the legislation.

In the first place, as to the matter of how fast things are likely to move. The hearings have been adjourned in both the House and Senate Indian Committees. We asked that they be adjourned until Congress could know more about the desires of the Indians them-selves. We have ahead of us either eight or nine Congresses in different parts of the Indian country before we go back to Wash-ington, so that the hearings of the committees in Congress can not be resumed until at least the end of the present month, and those hearings, when they are resumed, will go forward probably for several weeks. In other words, there will be abundant time for

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you and all of the other Indians to go over the whole thing back home—send in any ideas and Congress will not move ahead of you. Therefore it is important for you to keep right on studying the Bill and discussing it but do not feel that you are being hurried too much.

And second. As I stated yesterday, this legislation as a whole is not going to be forced on a tribe which does not want it. The tribe whose members desire to be excluded from the operations of the Bill has only got to let us and to let Congress know that they de-sire to be excluded. I would hope that no tribe would reach such a decision in a hurry, because I believe that all tribes, or at east most of them, will want the Bill and want it with all their hearts when they understand it thoroughly. I believe you will find that it takes nothing from you or from any individual among you, but that it adds a great deal that you want and have long wanted. There are some of you in greater need than others. I merely now desire to emphasize that the tribe which, after mature thought, decides that it wants to be excluded will be excluded, insofar as we have power in Congress. I think you will find a great many points at which you will be able to suggest improvements in the Bill. I expect that after all of the improvements are put in, if the Bill is passed, still there will be other improvements put in by amendment the next year, but I think that as you study the Bill and trace out exactly the way it will work in your case, you will find that we have already taken out of the Bill the one thing which you might object to. Namely, this feature of compulsion, so that the Bill in its essence is wholly an optional matter. Not only optional with the community and the tribe but with the individ-ual. That is not wholly true because the Bill would forbid an In-dian from getting a fee patent and disposing of his land. It would forbid that.

Now, one thing more before I stop. The men from the Indian Office who are with you here at this meeting are in most cases men who have been brought in by the present administration, except Mr. Stewart, who was placed at the head of the Land Division by the Administration. We are not in any way concerned with defen-ding any element of the past record of the Indian Bureau. In fact we hold office precisely because the President knew and the Secretary of the Interior knew, that we were not going to protect the old record, but were going to try to make a new one. Other-wise we would not hold office at all. Now, I do not know that we are particulary wise. I do not suggest that at all, but I do know that we all value one thing more than any other thing. We want

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the Indians to continue to believe that we have been truthful and faithful. Should we, at some future date, appear to have misformed you, to have told you things that were not true, as we understood the truth, then we should consider that we had failed and lost the most precious thing that we possess, which is your confidence. To me it would be the failure of my life and the ruin of my ambitions and hopes if I lost the confidence of the Indians. I am merely trying to convey to you that we have a stake of our own, just as much as you have, in making good, in playing fair, and in telling truth.

Now, if we haven't by this time put all our cards on the table and told you everything that we really think, it is just because we haven't had time enough or haven't known how to get it in words, and you may be sure that before these Congresses with the Indians get finished, everything we know will have been put into the record, if it hasn't been already, because, just as you men here have gone right on probing down, down to the heart of this thing, and demanded straight answers from us; you have done that—so will the other Indian Congresses do.

More important than this Bill, more important than any particular proposal is one other thing, and it is that the Indians shall realize that we are placing their case in their own hands; that we are doing that in dead earnest; that not merely are we willing, we are determined that the Indians shall do their own thinking and reach their own conclusions about these important matters, and that purpose, though it might result in our not getting results that we want, is still more important than getting those results. I can only here convey a feeling to you rather than state it in any words; that you are now your own judge and your own jury in these legislative and all other important matters, and from the point of view of the future of Indian life, there is something even more important than this land legislation. It is that the Indians shall take the responsibility, here and now, of thinking out their own problems and arriving at their own conclusions and determining their own future, and we are determined to be nothing but your agents in carrying out your own natural conclusions. That is all I shall say now. (Applause.)

Chairman, Dr. ROE CLOUD: Now, there is one thing that the Chairman would like to settle before we go any further, and that is the question of whether tonight there should be sectional meetings to discuss the technical affairs of each special group, as we had other nights, or whether we should have some entertainment. Now, the technical affairs of one group, however interesting they

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may be to that group, are of no importance to another. Therefore it is a question if whether there should be tonight, these divisional meetings or whether there should be some entertainment.

Mr. LABAN WHITE, Rosebud: Mr. Chairman. (He is granted the floor.) We, the delegates from the various Reservations, would like to say that we want to continue Mr. Collier's answering questions for the reason that we were sent here to study this matter out, and if we had something else the rumor would go out back home that we went up as delegates and instead of continuing in the examination of this Bill, why we got into some pastime and that would be a reflection on us as delegates back home.

The CHAIRMAN: I have just been informed that due to the fact that the Commissioner's voice is very nearly played out, he can not answer any more questions. It is a physical impossibility. So it is a question of whether we have divisional group meetings or entertainment. Those in favor of divisional meetings raise their right hands. (Considerable number do so.) Opposed the same sign. (About the same number vote). The Chair will decide. It is just about even, so the Chairman will decide on recreation tonight with the provision that those that want to meet in divisional meetings can do so. (Applause.)

Dr. ROE CLOUD: The Chair has something to say to you. Mr. Lindquist has asked for the privilege of the floor and I know of no man who likes to give everyone a chance to present his views more than the Commissioner himself, even though those views may be averse to his. We asked Mr. Lindquist to stick to the actual provisions of the Bill in their relation to the life of the Indians, the States, and the United States.

I would also like to ask him to make his talk as brief as possible because there are more things coming on.

Mr. LINDQUIST: Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen. Just a very brief statement, my friends, and in order not to be misquoted or the statement misrepresented, I have put it in writing in a single paragraph. This is the statement.

The Muskogee, Oklahoma, paper, according to the report of February 24, made an editorial addition to my remarks, saying that Commissioner Collier's plan is socialistic or communistic. I did not say that. While I do not agree with many of the provisions of the Howard-Wheeler Bill, I consider it neither communistic nor socialistic, nor both in one. As to Oklahoma, this was my statement. From Venita, in the north, to Durant, in the south, omitting those who failed to make adjustment and drifted back to the hills, you have one of the best examples of racial assimilation anywhere. I am thinking of those who made this adjustment;

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the Commissioner, of those who did not. Both groups are facts. Thank you.

Dr. ROE CLOUD: I want to call on Mr. Stewart to make an important announcement at this time.

Mr. STEWART: Many of you probably have some of your allotted land subject to sale on deferred payment plan. I know that many Indians of other Reservations than are here represented do. Under existing law, a sale made under that plan requires the white purchaser to pay 25 per cent of the sale price down at the time and the balance in installments. Under the regulations and law, if he pays his first payment and he pays his second payment or his third payment, and then does not want to continue paying out, he can ask for a refund for all but the first 25 per cent payment and get it.

A short time before I left for this trip a Bill came down to the Office for report. Major Case, the attorney here, largely aided in its introduction. Mr. Collier favorably passed that Bill and the Secretary of the Interior favorably passed that Bill back to the Committee.

Now, the terms of that Bill were to this effect: That in future cases where a white purchaser of your allotment who wants to stop payment after he has made the first 25 percent will not get any refund. You allottees involved will keep all the money. The progress that that Bill is now making before Congress is reflected in this telegram which I will now read to you. This telegram is dated March 5 and is addressed to Honorable George J. Crilly, Rapid City, South Dakota.

"HR 5075 introduced by me was unanimously passed by the House this afternoon STOP This law will give the Indian greater protection in land sales made on deferred payments in that all sums paid before default will be forfeited STOP Advise Case who is thoroughly familiar with the provisions of my bill and also Indians gathered there.

Theo. B. Werner

Before handing this to the interpreter to read to you, I am going to invite Major Case to follow the interpreter with a few remarks. This telegram is signed by the Honorable Theodore B. Werner.

Dr. ROE CLOUD: The Chair will now recognize Ralph H. Case, attorney for the Sioux and Winnebago for a brief remark. Ralph H. Case.

Mr. RALPH H. CASE: My friends, there is nothing I like better than to bring you good news. While we have talked for four days about this Commissioner's Bill, remember we have been talking about things that are going to happen in the future, they are not here yet and the old laws still press us down; the old law is still a

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burden to us. There is one particular matter and that is section one, of the Act of June 25, 1910, was very, very oppressive. If a man bought heirship land and paid more than one-fourth of the purchase price he could get his money back from the heir if he could not pay any more, but if he bought land from a white man or from the Government and he paid 90 per cent, if he made three out of four payments, and didn't pay any more, than he forfeited everything he paid. (Pointing men in audience.) Some of these people that are sitting right here came to Washington and said why should they treat us different than they treat the man that buys land from the Government or buys land from the white man? I said, there is no reason why they should not be treated the same, so you got to change the law and the only way you can change the law is first to get a Congressman that will try to get it through for you, and at the same time you have got to have a Commissioner of Indian Affairs that will say what he honestly thinks about the proposed change. Now this just shows you that is possible that you have got some friends in Washington. I went into this gentleman's office, of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and sat down with him and told him just what I thought about this matter and he said of course that is what ought to be done. (Applause.) Now do not think that this Bill affects only the Sioux and the Winnebago Tribes; it affects every tribe in the United States of America who has any inherited tribal land. I went to the Congressman from this district because I know him better than any other man in the House and I said "Werner will you put that bill in?" and he said, "Yes I will." Now here is a good one. That bill passed the House of Representatives. That means it is half way through. Now I have just a final word that is good news. That bill is half way through. I am not asking you gentlemen what you want to do, but before I leave here I want to tell all you friends that you ought to give Mr. Collier a rising vote and thank him for all he has done as he certainly has earned the name of Iron Man. (Applause.)

Dr. ROE CLOUD: Now the Commissioner wants a brief word again, but before he speaks I want to say that the Chairman of each delegation is appointed by the Chair to provide the entertainment for tonight. You are to meet here right after the meeting is over with.

Mr. COLLIER: I only want to say that I gladly accept Dr. Lindquist's correction of the Associated Report which I read to you. The fact that a detailed elaborate misquotation went over the wires all over the United States merely serves to indicate what you have to contend with, and I know that the Oklahoma Indians will be

144

glad to learn that he will be in the foreground with fighting to correct those unjust laws for Oklahoma.

Dr. ROE CLOUD: Now I have one or two things that I want to announce. Here is a notice left with me: "Left in the Alex Johnson Hotel, 317, a brief case, if found send to Porcupine, collect, to F. S. Fielder." Now awhile ago Francis Red Tomahawk introduced a resolution and also read a letter of thanks and warm commendation of what the Commissioner has done for us and requested that the Chairman of the delegations sign those resolutions and I have them in my hand and will hand them to the Commissioner. I want to make this announcement, which is very gratifying to me, and that is that the Santee Mission School, of which I am a graduate, has offered to translate the Howard-Wheeler Bill into the Indian language so that you will have this Bill in the Indian language before very long.

I have a notice here of particular interest: "Honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Mr. Collier—Not one Indian woman had a voice in this Indian council and may I submit in writing—this new plan is our only salvation. Let's all join in and accept the new Bill and make the best of our advantages." She said more in that one line than all the speeches put together. This is a member of the Pine Ridge Sioux delegation. She does not give her name.

Now, before I go to the next thing, I want to say just a word myself. I am in favor of this Bill, although it will be of no benefit to me whatsoever, either way it goes. The Commissioner announced awhile back that now is the time to get active and do something because the thing is in a fluid condition and has not been made solid yet, has not been set. If we are to get anything done for the American Indian, now is the time to do it. Friends, there is only one John Collier in the United States. I do not believe he is a twin. He has the brains, the personality, the friendship, the sympathy and possesses the technique to put all this into proper form for the benefit of the Indians. We will never have another John Collier as Commissioner of Indian Affairs. I have always felt sorry for the Commissioners of Indian Affairs in years gone by. They have always seemed to me men who were bound by ropes round and round their bodies, wishing to do something in there heart but unable to do anything. Here for the first time a Commissioner of Indian Affairs has broken that rope from his body and finding abundant freedom early in his career to work out good things for the Indian race. Now I have many other things I would like to say but Mr. Woehlke wants to take the stand on behalf of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and I will call on him now. Mr. Woehlke.

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INDIAN from FORT BERTHOLD: I would like to call on Mr. A. F. Johnson to explain to us how they are going to handle the translation of the Bill into the Dakota language, and how it is to be distributed.

Dr. ROE CLOUD: Mr. Johnson you may tell us.

Mr. JOHNSON: The Bill is going to be put into the Dakota language and this gentleman wants to know after it is translated how it is to be distributed after it has been put into the Indian language. We are going to send copies to all Indians, missionaries, etc.

Mr. WOEHLKE: Just a few words. I am taking the place of the Commissioner's throat now. We will all get together again a year from now when the next Plains Indian Congress will be held, but before that Congress convenes next year, in all probability this new legislation will have passed, and if it passes that is when the real work begins. The Commissioner wants me to tell you that if this legislation passes, he, himself, and his representatives will come out to visit and consult with each tribe that is here represented. So that he and his representatives will discuss with your business committees and with your general councils of each tribe just what you want to do and just how much you want to do in your specific Reservation to take advantage of this new legislation. He and his representatives want to listen to what you have to say concerning the reorganization of your Reservation or of your tribe under this new legislation, as to how much of it you want—if you want anything at all, and how to go about getting what you want on each specific Reservation. As was said this morning, the table will be set for you and he wants to find out then from each tribe, from each Reservation, whether you want to eat and what you want to eat, and what kind of a fork you want to use, and I can tell you on behalf of the Commissioner's staff that we all hope to be able to get together with your various tribes and your general councils before the snow begins to fly next year again. (Loud applause.)

Dr. ROE CLOUD: In the absence of any further announcements and seeing the audience is getting very restless, the chair is ready to dismiss if some one will put it into a motion.

Rev. DAVID CLARK: Words of appreciation have come to me to be presented to Mr. Collier and to Mr. Staley from the delegates. I would like on behalf of many people who are here, both white and Indians, Missionaries and others, to express our appreciation of his courtesy in allowing us to sit in and listen to these discussions. We appreciate it very much and are glad that we have

146

been here and we have enjoyed it all and like to carry back home
our appreciation of the courtesy of the Iron Man. We appreciate
Mr. Collier, the intensities of your interest and effort in behalf of
all the Indian people. I believe I speak the voice of all these people.

Dr. ROE CLOUD: The Chair will order those remarks into the records.

Mr. LaPOINT: Have Mr. Clark speak in Indian so that the Indians will understand. (Mr. Clark talks in Indian.)

Dr. ROE CLOUD: On behalf of the Commissioner and all his staff we wish to thank you for your patience and cooperation in making this great Congress a great success.

Mr. SAM LaPOINT: Mr. Chairman I move we adjourn.

Dr. ROE CLOUD: Is there a second to that motion.
(Motion seconded unanimously.)

All in favor arise. (All arise.)

Congress is adjourned.

Exhibits

Letter of Tribal Business Council of the Standing Rock Sioux Reservation, handed to Chairman by Francis Red Tomahawk of Standing Rock.

Fort Yates, North Dakota,
February 8, 1934.

Mr. John Collier,
Commissioner of Indian Affairs,
Washington, D. C.

Sir: We the Tribal Business Council of the Standing Rock Sioux Res-
ervation of North and South Dakota, have the honor to submit the
report of the action taken in connection with Circular dated January
20, 1934, Re "Indian Self-government" addressed to Superintendents,
Tribal Councils and Individual Indians.

For the purpose of promoting the success of the proposed new policy outlined in the circular and to further the efforts of the administration to secure beneficial legislation which will enable it to realize its objective the complete reconstructing of the whole Indian problem, we hereby endorse the plans contained in the above mentioned circular with certain reservations, which will be shown under the heading "Land Problems."

1. Evils of the Allotment System: After a thorough and comprehensive survey of the evils of the allotment system as we have experienced them on the Standing Rock Sioux Reservation we have listed the various sources of evils by which we have sustained losses in land sales and other benefits as will be seen on attached report dated February 7, 1934.

Land Problems

Under this heading we favor legislation positively prohibiting Indian land sales to outside parties, that no more patents be granted, that complicated heirship land and other heirship lands of like character be sold and purchased for the use of the tribe, that deeded lands located in areas predominated by Indian allotments be purchased for the use of the tribe, that timber lands lost to the tribe through land sales and opening of the Reservation be restored to tribal status which shall include mineral land also, that lands sold for taxes be restored to original allottees wherever practicable, and to include lands sold under mortgage foreclosures wherever justifiable. The legislation to conform to the white man's land sale law be enacted and the present Indian land sale law be discarded for good.

We reserve all rights as to trust land owned by the original allottees and all heirship lands not complicated so long as they retain the status of "complicated heirship lands."

147

REPORT
of
SOUTHERN ARIZONA INDIAN
CONFERENCE

HELD AT
PHOENIX, ARIZONA, MARCH 15-16, 1934

FOR THE PURPOSE OF EXPLAINING THE HOWARD-
WHEELER BILL TO THE ASSEMBLED INDIANS

Phoenix Indian School
Print Shop
Phoenix, Arizona

Officials present. A. C. Monahan, Assistant to the Commissioner, Walter V. Woehlke, Ward Shepard, James Stewart, Melvin Siegel, and Mark Radcliff.

Delegations: San Carlos, White River, Sells, Sacaton, Colorado River, Truxton Canyon.

MARCH 15, 1934. 9:27 O'CLOCK A. M.

Meeting called to order—Mr. Monahan, chairman,

Mr. MONAHAN: Friends, I am very sorry that Mr. Collier could not be here. He has too many meetings in different parts of the country. He had to go east, because Congress is in session and he must be back or many things will fail without his presence. But he asked me to say to you that he was very sorry he could not be here and to ask you to consider the Wheeler-Howard Bill very carefully and then write to him and ask anything that you want to know about it. Mr. Ickes, Secretary of the Interior, asked me as I left Saturday to give his very best regards to you delegates that attend this meeting.

This meeting today and tomorrow is to discuss this proposed legislation which is now before Congress, and on which hearings are being held by the Senate and House Committees on Indian Affairs, but Congress wants to know what the Indians themselves think of this, so that what you have to say here in this meeting or after you go back home and your people tell you what they want to say or what anyone of you as a single person has to say, will be taken up with the committees in Congress so that they will know what you want.

As this meeting is for this particular purpose, we will not take time for any other matters that have to do with local questions that some of you from different reservations want to discuss. Strictly tribal matters will be taken up at some other time. If you have some other matters that you want to discuss, we will arrange for that sometime tomorrow.

In order to expedite our business, I am going to ask some of the men here to explain different parts of the proposed legislation. That will probably take the morning session at least. This afternoon we would like to answer questions which we would like to have you write on paper at noontime and give to any of us because many of you will have the same questions and by writing them out we will save time in answering them. When we are through with that, those who have something to say will have an opportunity to do so.

(Mr. Monahan introduced Mr. Woehlke.)

First I present Mr. Woehlke, of California, who is a field representative of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs.

Mr. WOEHLKE: Mr. Chairman, Friends: Before I proceed I would like to have you know the various officials of Washington who have come here to consult with you. They have not been mentioned so far, but I believe it would be a good thing if you knew who they are and what they are doing. This distinguished gentleman in front here is Mr. Ward Shepard, specialist in land policies for the Washington Office. Of course, you all know Mr. Monahan, assistant to the Commissioner. Behind him is Mr. Stewart, chief of the Land Division in Washington and far in the back ground is Mr. Siegel, the assistant to the Solicitor of the Interior Department.

This legislation which is presented to you for your consideration is the most important law in the history of the Indian people for at least a century. It means a turning point, a change in the direction of the current of Indian rights.

For fifty years the basic law, the law which dominated all Indian rights, was the allotment act of 1887. Although the Arizona tribes have not been very much affected by this act, it was the theory of the allotment law that if you could attach a piece of individually owned land to each member of a tribe instead of having them own their land in common one could thereby

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INDIAN CONFERENCE

almost over night turn the Indian into a white man, able and willing to compete with the white man and live the white man's life.

It was the belief of the men who framed the allotment act that through its workings the Indian reservations would be broken up; that the tribal life, the community life of the Indian tribes would be broken up and that through the individual ownership of property the Indian would, with the utmost speed become completely what we call civilized, and be absorbed into the white life of the Nation. That was the theory. But it did not work out that way. Here in the Southwest you do not know the full effect of this splitting up of the land into small pieces and of attaching ownership of each piece to an individual. You have not had that system in general here; but elsewhere, up among the Sioux, in Oklahoma, in Oregon, and in Washington, where this system has been working now for thirty or forty years, the principal effect has been to take the land away from the Indian and leave him landless and less able to compete with the white people.

Discussing the allotment system with the Assiniboines in Montana a month ago in their community house—it was six below zero and the community house was not heated, but there were a lot of them there. They were very much interested because the allotment act had been applied to them twenty-five years ago and they knew what it had done to them. One young Assiniboine of about thirty years of age, got up and said, "Some ten years ago I thought I was smart; I had an allotment of three hundred and twenty acres of land and I asked for a fee patent. I thought I was smart. I got my fee patent and turned around and sold it and with the purchase price I bought an automobile. And then I wrecked the automobile. And now I have nothing except the clothes in which I stand and what I have in my pockets—and I have nothing in my pockets but my hands." And that reminds me of Charles Davis, a Navajo whom we met a few months ago when we gave him a lift to a trader's store. We asked him about his family. He said he had three girls and two boys, and that both boys were grown up. We asked him what they were doing now. He said one lives over here and one over there, and then we said, "But what do they do?" And he said, "Not very much, you see they both bought an automobile now and they are broke."

Through the working of the allotment act the land estate of the Indian as a whole has been constantly shrinking. Back in 1887 at the time this allotment act was adopted the Indian estate consisted of one hundred thirty-three million acres of land; in 1933 that had shrunk to forty-seven million acres and it was still going down. Yet the main loss, practically the entire loss, of land had occurred in those regions where the allotment act was applied. was no loss of land. In fact, in several instances Indians who were not allotted have today more land than they had in 1887.

This legislation which is placed before you puts a stop to allotment. It ends that source of loss of land for the Indians. That source will be plugged up, and that is the principal reason, the basic feature of the bill before you. At the time when the allotment act was passed it was the idea that for just a little while the owners, the Indian owners of these individual pieces of property would need the protection of the Federal government against this loss, so in the beginning Congress provided a trust period of only five years. It was the idea that in five years the Indian who received a piece of land would learn how to handle it, how to protect himself and become a white business man. After five years the average Indian would be a good business man so that he could take care of himself and he would be able to pay taxes and become a member of the white community without enough so in many instances they extended the tax period to 25 years. It was found that the five-year period was not enough, no, not even a 25-year period was enough, so under this policy the Government's guardianship over the Indians was extended while at the same time the basis of their economic life, the thing from which they could make a living, was slipping out from underneath them, the land was going away very fast,

INDIAN CONFERENCE

3

and with the loss of the land the need for protection, for Federal guardianship was greater and greater.

Now what this legislation proposes to do is: first, to build a firm foundation on which all the Indian tribes can stand and continue to stand and make their own living, in other words it proposes to save the land, to enlarge the land holdings where necessary, to put this land in condition for the best possible use by the Indians themselves and to provide the necessary credit and capital so that as far as it is humanly possible every Indian tribe and every Indian individual who wants to remain on the land can become self-supporting.

You can be free only if you are self-supporting. Most of you who have had anything to do with bankers know that if you owe the banker money, you are no longer free. He tells you where to head in, he regulates your activities. It is the same way with the Government, so long as you have to lean heavily on the Government, just so long the Secretary of the Interior will have to regulate your lives. It is only by becoming self-supporting that you will become free. You are not free now; the Secretary of the Interior, through the Commissioner, can regulate you until the cows come home. Under the law as it now is, it is illegal for you to organize a tribe or council. You can only select a delegate or organize a council if the Commissioner of Indian Affairs will kindly allow you to do it. But the present Secretary and the present Commissioner have no desire to rule your lives, so they propose to abolish all those old laws and make it possible for you to run your own affairs as fast as you demonstrate that you are capable of doing it.

These then are the main purposes of this legislation: on the one hand to save your land, to increase your land where needed, to put that land in condition so that you can make a living on it and to supply the credit and capital facilities with which to make a living on that land and become self-supporting. On the other hand it wants to extend to all Indian tribes the right of every American citizen to run his own affairs and in order to do that a system of transferring the government services which are now rendered by the Indian Bureau to the various tribes has been worked out in this bill so that those tribes which become self-supporting can at the same time become self-governing. There will now be more detailed explanations of the different parts of the bill by other members of the Washington staff.

Mr. SHEPARD: My Friends: I am going to talk very briefly about the first title of the bill—the title dealing with self-government.

The purpose of this title of the bill is to bring to an end the absolute power of the Indian Bureau over the lives and affairs of the Indians. This part of the bill is a rather peculiar type of legislation. It does not say that the Indians must accept self-government. It merely says that if any tribe wishes to have self-government, the Secretary of the Interior will grant it a charter of self-government; but if an Indian tribe does not wish to have self-government no effort will be made to force that tribe to accept it.

As Mr. Woehlke has just said, any power that you now have of self-government, such as electing a tribal council or sending delegates to this conference is done by the permission of the Secretary of the Interior, who might if he wished refuse you that power. What we wish to do under this bill is to give you definite, legal rights of self-government just as the members of the white community have definite legal rights of self-government. If a tribe wishes to have self-government, it will petition to the Secretary of the Interior, who is authorized by this bill to issue to that tribe a charter which will define the powers of government to that tribe. You have probably all read the first part of this bill and have probably found it long and complicated. The reason for that is this, we give in this section a list of all the powers that may be conferred on an Indian tribe, but that does not mean that all of those powers will necessarily be conferred on any one tribe. When an Indian tribe gets ready for self-government, the Secretary of the Interior will send out expert advisors who will help you to frame the kind of a charter that you would like to have with the powers that you feel ready to undertake.

4

INDIAN CONFERENCE

You might, for example, want to undertake the ordinary powers of a county, or of a village, such as appointing your police officers, appointing Indian judges, issuing your local laws and ordinances and enforcing those laws and ordinances. In that case a charter would be worked out which would define those kinds of powers. Or you might wish to have another kind of power, for instance the power of going into business like a white man's corporation. You might, for example, wish to go into the saw mill and lumbering business, you might wish to develop the cattle business among the individual members of your tribe, and so the charter would give you powers to carry on business as a legal group just as the white man's corporation is given power to do business.

I want to repeat and make it completely clear, first, that you do not have to accept a charter if you do not wish it. If you do not feel ready to undertake the powers of a charter, you do not have to accept a charter; second, that you do not need to take on any more power than you wish to. You can gradually build up your experience and then get more power instead of trying to undertake everything at one time.

There is another point that I want to make clear. This bill does not set up any particular form of self-government. That again it is going to leave to the Indian tribe to determine. As you know, among the Pueblo tribes of New Mexico there are very ancient forms of government which go back far beyond the time when the white man came to this country, and this bill would not in the least disturb those types of government. On the other hand, there are many Indian tribes who are living very close to white communities or intermingled with white communities who would like to have the white man's kind of government, and this bill would also permit that. So you see as far as the Indians are concerned this whole question of self-government is absolutely voluntary; if this bill passes it means that you will only have self-government if you want it.

I want now to come to a second important part of the self-government idea, and that is that in the future under this bill the powers now exercised by the Indian Service over the lives and property of the Indians will be on a different basis and that basis will be that of cooperation so that the Indian Service will become the cooperator and advisor of the organized, self-governing Indian tribes. We plan, for example, that the Indian communities, these organized communities that receive a charter, will become capable of gradually taking over the functions and services now performed by the Indian office and that your own young people will be trained to undertake that work and will be given jobs and will be paid by the Federal Government. That means, for example, that gradually Indians will be trained as teachers, farmers, foresters, range managers, administrators, police or as agricultural extension workers, and Indian girls will be trained as nurses, domestic science workers, teachers, office workers, and as you have qualified workers to take over these services, they will be transferred to your community. Congress will give you the right to hire these people and Congress will pay for it. You know that at the present time all these local jobs in the Indian Service are under the Federal civil service and that as a rule the Indians can't get those jobs. There are fewer Indians in the Indian Service today than there were twenty years ago. We believe that the Indian young people can be trained to do this work just as well as the white young people, but we do not want to force you to compete with all the millions of white people that want to get these jobs. We think that these jobs should be kept for the Indians because they are in your own community and they are for your own advancement.

Under this bill these jobs which are to be filled by Indians will not be under the civil service, but the Commissioner of Indian Affairs will lay down certain qualifications and requirements for these jobs and Indians who wish to get these jobs must meet these requirements. We feel it is necessary to help your young people to get the right kind of training so that they can carry on these services and therefore this bill provides an appropriation which will be loaned without interest to help the young people to get the right kind of training at our regular universities or in special schools. The government will pay half of the cost of the education and

INDIAN CONFERENCE

5

the student will pay back gradually the other half when he gets a job. If he doesn't get a job, he doesn't pay it back.

There is another provision in this bill which is designed to remove the absolute powers of the Indian Bureau over the Indians, and that is the provision which empowers an Indian community to require the transfer of an unsatisfactory Federal employee away from the community. That, of course, is a very broad power but it must be clearly understood that there are two sides to a question and that the white employee, the Federal employee, has got to have his rights safe-guarded just as much as the Indians have to have their rights safe-guarded in such a case. It doesn't mean, for example, that a few people who happen to have a grudge against John Smith, a Federal employee can write in and require that he be sent away. It means that a regular legal procedure must be set up and a clear cut case made out against the efficiency or character of a Federal employee before he could be transferred.

I cannot go too much into detail, but there is one other highly important point that I want to mention that I know will appeal to every Indian here today, and that is if this bill passes, the Federal Government can no longer spend tribal funds without the consent of the tribe. Is that clear? That your tribal money in the future cannot be spent by Congress or by the Secretary of the Interior or by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs unless you agree to have him spend it. As you know during the past 30 years or more, hundreds of millions of dollars in tribal funds have been spent by the government without the consent of the Indians and much of that money has been used for the administration of the office of Indian Affairs.

Another important point is that in the future no federal appropriation spent for the benefit of the Indians or spent on an Indian reservation can become a reimbursable debt against that tribe without the consent of the tribe. In other words you are not going to have debts fastened on your shoulders unless you want to have them. Moreover, under this system of self-government in the future the Indian community that is chartered, is going to have a part in making the budget estimates for Congress. Before an estimate is sent to Congress for an appropriation to spend on your reservation, you are going to have a right to make your recommendations to your Congressman, to the Secretary of the Interior, to the Director of the Budget, and to Congress so that the money can be spent more in accordance with your desires than it has been spent in the past.

I want to say just a word in closing. Don't be afraid of this self-government. It doesn't mean that the Federal government will take anything away from you; it doesn't mean that the Federal government is trying to get away from its responsibilities. The Federal government will do just as much as it ever has done in the past, it will do more than it ever has done in the past, and it will do it more intelligently because you will have a part in determining what is to be done.

You know you can't learn to swim without getting in the water and you can't learn self-government without beginning. The Indians have the choice of going on perpetually as they are now, dominated by a Federal bureau, or they have a chance to come in and take a part in running their own affairs in a way that is absolutely essential to their own progress. I want to end by saying something that Commissioner Collier has been emphasizing at many of the tribal councils we have been holding in various parts of the country that this legislation that we have put up is a part of the "New Deal." This happens to be a time when it is possible to do big things, but we don't know how long that time is going to last. Therefore Commissioner Collier has urged the Indians in considering this legislation not to take the attitude that we may wait two years or ten years. This chance may not come again.

Mr. MONAHAN: You have said, "must we have self-government, must we change our system under the provision of the bill?" You need not. You may go on exactly as you are. If a tribe desires to have self-government, 25 per cent of the people, of the adults, must ask for it in a petition. That is, 25 per cent or 25 out of every hundred adult Indians residing on any reservation shall ask for it in a petition for the issuance of a charter. Then the Federal government will help prepare the charter, or constitution or by-

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INDIAN CONFERENCE

laws, but before the Secretary of the Interior is authorized to put this into operation, three-fifths of the adult Indians on that reservation must vote for it; so that on 25 per cent of them sending in a petition it can be prepared, but unless on a vote three-fifths of the adult Indians vote that they want it, it cannot be put into operation.

I want to correct a mis-statement that Mr. Shepard made unintentionally. He stated that there were fewer Indians in the Federal employ now than twenty years ago. He meant to say proportionately, as there are very many more in the Federal employ today than twenty years ago. I want now to ask Mr. Stewart, chief of the land division in the Washington office, to speak—the division that has to do with buying land or selling land or anything to do with land and with much of the business of having to do with the disposal of the resources of the land, such as coal, oil, and other things produced on the land.

Mr. STEWART: Mr. Chairman, assembled Indians, and white friends: I shall try and be as brief as possible because our reactions to these other Indian councils have been that they got more out of asking us questions if we gave them a general outline as to what it was all about. First of all I don't believe all of you know what we mean by an allotment. By an allotment of land, stripping it of all technical description, it merely means this, that at one time or another various Indian tribes had very large, solidly blocked out areas of land all their own. Then certain laws were prepared by which and under which little pieces within this large reservation area were carved out, surveyed and listed in some one Indian's name for which he was given a piece of paper saying that the Government would hold that for him—the land in the paper—for twenty-five years free of taxation. After that twenty-five year period, which we call the trust period had expired, a fee patent or complete title could be had by the Indian under the existing law, or cast upon an Indian, and thereafter the individual Indian would have to pay taxes upon that individual allotment.

The Apaches, Hualapais, and others have never been visited with this allotment system, but the Pimas, Yumas, and Colorado River Indians have. The fact that those reservations mentioned have not been visited with this allotment system is no reason to assume that under the existing law they cannot or may not be visited with that system. We can, under the existing law, allot tribal lands of any reservation. Under the existing law the allottees of the various reservations, Pimas, Colorado River, and so on, can sell those allotments to white people and thus bring in white people within the reservation as has already happened up in the Sioux country where the lands are almost all under white ownership. The Sioux Indians now have the very poorest land that was within the reservation.

What I am trying to drive at is this: because of this allotment law, the Indians of the country have lost ninety-one million acres of land. How have they lost it? I will trace down a little of the history of it. In 1887 an act was passed called the general allotment act. Under the terms of that act, the Secretary of the Interior can always continue to allot the surplus land of any reservation. Once those allotments were made out of the tribal lands, then the white people of the northern states got behind a political movement to have what was unallotted, what remained after these allotments had been made, opened to homestead entry and settlement by white people, the Indian people of the reservation to get the net proceeds of the sale of those lands to the white entrymen. In that manner the Indians, particularly of the northern part of the country, have lost approximately ninety-one million acres of lands which would never have been opened had they not been given allotments. That was the foundation upon which their surplus allotment was based. That can happen to any reservation here in Arizona under the existing law. Now this legislation, title three of this bill, will guarantee that there will be no more allotments made on any reservation; that the trust period on any allotments heretofore made will be continued indefinitely, that there shall be no more sales of Indian lands.

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Now the situation is not as acute in this part of the country as it is in the Northern States, so that instead of going into technical details as we had to up there, I am just going to give you an idea of what this bill will do for you and be as brief as possible. It will keep your lands in tribal ownership, that is, the tribal land that is still left, it will keep your allotment under restriction and untaxable indefinitely, and it will prevent any further sales of allotted lands to white people or to Indians unless it is necessary in connection with a chartered community. So in order that the rest of the bill may be explained to you and as much time as possible left to you to ask questions of us, I am going to stop now and be on hand the rest of the day and tomorrow to answer your questions.

Mr. MONAHAN: (introducing Mr. Siegel) Mr. Siegel is from the solicitor's office of the Department of the Interior, which is the office that handles all the legal work for the Department of the Interior.

Mr. Siegel: The reason for establishing a special Indian court and providing for appointment of special attorneys is very simple. The Indians have not had their fair day in court. Nor have they been given a very fair representation by the district attorney. We feel that for the most part the district attorneys have refused to be bothered by the majority of Indian cases and that therefore it is necessary to employ special counsel in order that the Indians would have adequate representation.

The same is true with regard to the court. We feel that the Federal district courts have often been unwilling to consider the kind of Indian case that is frequently presented to them. Many of them are small, petty matters which the Federal court does not handle and it is therefore desirable to get a Federal court that has all of its time to devote to Indian matters.

I want to make a few general remarks with regard to the entire bill.

I have heard this bill described as a "back to the blanket movement." Some people say that it is "socialism." Well, this bill is not a back to the blanket movement and it is not socialistic. We want to put an end to the allotment system of which the evil effects have not been felt here. We want to prevent the further loss of Indian lands, that is one reason. We want to put an end to the allotment system because through the heirship problem it has broken up the land into such small pieces nobody can use them. The allotment system was honestly intended to give the Indian a chance to improve his own economic system. We approve of that idea, but we want to put the land into such a condition and to provide such credit opportunity for such organization that the Indian will be given an opportunity to improve his own economic condition.

No Indian will be compelled to stay at an Indian reservation if he doesn't want to. We are not going to build a wall around the reservation and close the Indians inside. The educational features of this bill will undoubtedly aid many Indians to compete in the white world as they never had an opportunity to compete before. This bill continues the present policy of attempting to train the Indian to live in a new and changed environment. Any Indian who is so trained so that he may leave the reservation and live in the outside world may do so and may be compensated therefore.

There are some very important questions relating to the heirship settlement of the land system about which we would like to speak later. There are so few reservations which are affected by the problem that probably we had better discuss it with them in small groups or in response to their own questions. We wanted to get through with our general program remarks as quickly as possible as this meeting was not arranged so that we could talk to you, it may be news to you, but this meeting was arranged so that you would have an opportunity to question us. I think that if you will lend us a hand and your aid we can learn something with the cooperation of the Indian. We have not come here to praise this bill, but we do not want to bury it either—we would genuinely appreciate it if you would make suggestions as to how this bill could be improved to gain its object. We would also be interested to know if you think its objects are ill-conceived. This is the opportunity for the Indians to get the

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legislation that they want if they want any. I don't have to tell you that you at least have a friend in the office of Commissioner of Indian Affairs. He has sent us here to present our idea of what should be done and if you do not approve you tell us what you do want. Already in some of the con- ferences that have been held we have been given valuable suggestions wherein this bill can be improved, and I want to repeat that this is wherein this bill can be improved or whether you think this bill should be adopted at all. I am going to stop talking so that you can make up your minds about that question.

AFTERNOON SESSION

Mr. SIEGEL: We have quite a collection of questions and I think some of you have some questions that you have not passed in so we will ask Mr. Hall to go around and bring them in.

Question by F. Bonaventure: The Papago country is an aggregation of independent ranching or farming communities, living within definite boundaries. There is no union between the villages, so close as to make one tribe, that could be ruled as one community.

Could one of these Papago communities organize and form its own charter, based on the laws which governed that community before the forming of the reservation in 1917 without the other communities or- ganizing? Could such a community have a charter which would give the local place self-government, with its own court and police force and at the same time have the agency continue to care for Federal improvements such as deep wells?

Answer by Mr. Siegel: This bill uses the term communities very carefully as distinguished from the present reservation so that if within the reser- vation parts want to become chartered as a unit they may do so. The parts of the Papago reservation that would want to have a charter and become separate communities could do so. (I think that answers the second question also.) Yes, the community may have a charter which would permit it to have self-government.

Question: Will the Federal government continue to operate the schools or will it turn them over to the communities?

Answer: At the present it is the intention of the Federal government to operate the schools, but with the active aid and leadership of the Indian community.

Question: Will the communities be under the county, or state or under Federal jurisdiction?

Answer: They will be under the Federal jurisdiction—not under county or state.

Question: An Indian charter is revocable, without the consent of the Indians. The Federal Court of Indian Affairs should make it a duty to hear pleadings and pass judgment on whether a charter should be revoked or not. Indians should be given a voice at such hearing.

Answer: I suppose you mean that Congress could revoke a charter, the Secretary of the Interior would not have authority to revoke a charter. There is no valid reason why the Federal court of Indian Affairs should not judge whether they have lived up to their charter or not.

Question: Why should the Secretary of the Interior have the sole power to determine what lands are not needed by the Indians, and such lands to be reopened to sale, entry settlement, etc. Powers should be granted Indians to consent to such.

Answer: I agree with you. I think that perhaps the bill should be modified so that the leasing and reopening of lands should be done with the authority of the chartered community.

Question: Why is the leasing or permitting the use of the Indian lands vested solely with the Secretary of the Interior? The bill should grant the Indians powers to consent or otherwise determine when such actions are necessary.

Answer: I agree that the Indians should have more to say on this point.

Question: Will this bill's acceptance cancel any old claims tribes may

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have against the government or against other tribes? Will it cancel claims of the government against any tribes?

Answer: It is not our intention that any treaty rights should be can- celled by this act nor should any claims against the United States be lost by this act, and in order to make this perfectly clear we are going to amend the bill so that all treaty rights would be respected.

Question: Does this bill cancel previous treaties between the govern- ment and tribes?

Answer: No, it is not our intention that any treaty rights should be cancelled by this act.

Question: Under this bill will it be possible for a tribe or Indian community which so desires to have a charter of self-government on any other than a communistic basis; for instance, suppose the Pimas should want to maintain a form of individual ownership of land under certain community regulations as to sale, inheritance, subdivision, etc. Could they be granted a charter under this bill providing for such restricted in- dividual ownership. In other words is the communistic land basis an unavoidable part of a self-government charter?

Answer: With regard to the Pimas' lands, farm lands, the answer is that this bill will perpetuate individual ownership in any real sense. The only evil we are trying to get at on any Pima reservation is the inheri- tance question of scattered small pieces of land that no one can use. The only object of the land bill with regard to farm lands is to consolidate those small pieces into units which are large enough to support a person and that land will continue to be inheritable as before, but cannot be subdivided into uneconomical units.

Question: Will there be an effort made to force Indians to organize a community and get a charter? What about the provisions of the bill where it provides that there shall be no valid will made, no allotments, and what will happen to the allotted lands at the end of the trust period?

Answer: Any land which any individual owns now he may keep unless he wishes voluntarily to transfer it.

Question: Is this bill in question final or is it subject to amendments? Is it subject to amendments after Mr. Collier is through conferring with the Indians throughout the country?

Answer: The purpose of this meeting and the other meetings was not merely to explain the bill but to get suggestions from Indians as to what amendments should be made and if we can agree we will suggest such amendments as we have so that Congress can change it, but it will not be changed unless there is something seriously wrong and the Indians would want the bill changed.

Question: Why is the water rights or guarantee of any water rights not mentioned in the bill? Agricultural land is valueless without water.

Answer: I suppose that you are right. A question like that merely re- veals the misfortune of having somebody in Washington who doesn't know as much as he should to draft the bill. I would have appreciated it if you people out here could have been in Washington to help us. We had no intention of taking away the water rights now attached to the land which you are using. We will put something in the bill to take care of such rights.

Question: In the development of surplus lands as irrigable lands, how can the government provide for the obtaining of the water rights to these lands?

Answer: I think you will purchase them just as you have to purchase lands. We are authorized to spend two million dollars a year to purchase lands. I will make it clear now that that includes the purchase of water rights.

Question: In the light of what is now being said and done in this meeting, if some one should see fit to attack this as violating a rule of Indian Affairs, would not this hold the bill if passed to be null and void?

Answer: I think we made the statement that through the graciousness of someone in Washington we are permitted to gather here today, that you have no right to organize without the consent of the Secretary and that this meeting is here held with the consent of the Secretary.

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Miss Ross: I think I understand what the difficulty is. May I explain please. Whether this bill is passed or not, or if it is passed, will the procedure of the Indian Office have precedence in Indian affairs? Will the bill be constitutional?

Answer: If this bill is passed there is no doubt as to its constitutionality.

Question: In the election of community leaders, who will pay the salary, the community or the Federal government?

Answer: Here you have to distinguish between two kinds of positions. Many jobs which the community takes over which are now being performed by the Federal government will continue to be paid by the Federal government—jobs which Congress will continue to appropriate for. In regard to the other jobs which the community establishes for themselves I do not think that Congress will appropriate for those jobs. However, there is a five hundred thousand dollars appropriation in this bill to get the communities started, and as to any other officials the community elects the answer would be that the community would have to support them themselves unless Congress makes an appropriation for that purpose. Any function that the Federal government is now performing, the Federal government would of course continue to perform so long as Congress made the necessary appropriations.

Question: How long is this good news going to continue. Is there a period of this aid from our government?

Answer: The answer is that we cannot bind the future Congresses, that is very true. But we can't bind the Congress right now, even if this bill is not passed, and nothing we can do will prevent Congress from appropriating nothing at all if it wishes not to appropriate. If we get a declaration from Congress declaring that it desires such policy and desires to promote self-government by Indians, I think that we can reasonably be sure that those appropriations will be continued. I would suggest that there is more hope for the Federal government continuing them under this law than under the old law, and for this reason, it was the old idea, and that was the mistake on which the allotment system rested, that after a brief period of time the Indian could be turned loose, given a fee patent and thereafter be no cost to the Government. I think that has been proven wrong and that in any Indian community it will be impossible for them—at least at the start—to make enough money to support all divisions of their government by themselves. We have recognized the necessity of continuing the Federal guardianship much longer than was ordered under the allotment act. If you want this aid to continue longer, I think the best thing for you to do is to organize and make your wishes and feelings known.

Question: We would like to know if we hold positions as government employees, would we have the same privileges as the Federal employees have as to drawing pensions after thirty years in the service?

Answer: Plainly, Yes.

Question: Will any individual leaving the reservation or community to live among the white race and should fail in his or her efforts, will he or she return to his or her people and enjoy the same privileges as before his or her leaving the reservation or community?

Answer. There is nothing in this bill to prevent you from leaving the Indian community and going out in the white world. There is nothing in this bill which deprives you of any citizenship rights or anything that you might have had before; on the contrary, it will give you more rights than you have ever had. Of course, that will depend upon what the community says. If no community is organized the existing law would persist. Under this bill, the chartered community can be given the power to determine membership and terms of readmittance to membership.

Question: I have one hundred acres of inheritance land in Oklahoma. Would I have to sacrifice it to benefit those who have sold theirs and blown the money?

Answer: No.

Question: The Papago communities have their own old laws regarding inheritances and heirs. Would the bill abrogate these?

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Answer: I do not think that the bill would have anything to do with that, even if it were an allotted reservation over which the Secretary of the Interior now has some jurisdiction. The charter could be given authority to take care of matters of this kind.

Question: How much government would an Indian have in regarding laws regulating business matters?

Answer: Section 4 of Title I allows the Secretary to give a community authority to regulate business matters, or to regulate commerce between the whites and Indians. There is a provision in the bill that the Secretary cannot compel the Indians to take a charter if they do not want one. If you don't like the conditions, you can protest to Congress. If you think that the bill in that respect gives the Secretary too much power, you can make suggestions as to how that power might be curbed. But I would like to mention this, that the bill must be sufficiently flexible so that it may vary from reservation to reservation. The desert lands in the Southwest are nothing like the lands in the Northwest. These lands all differ and there must be sufficient power in the bill to allow us to draw charters which will meet the needs of different reservations.

Question: Mr. Stewart stated that a trust period could be made to expire any time. In other words the Government could refuse to renew or extend the trust period.

Answer: As I have said before the Secretary, under existing law can force the issuance of a fee patent, but under the new bill this power would be revoked.

Mr. Santeo passed in something that I will read to you. "Your talk sounds all right, but what is all in the bill? I am sure it is not all what you have said this morning. It will take months before we can thoroughly understand the bill. So give us time because many of our people do not know a thing about this bill. Furthermore, this country was ours and when the Spaniards came here in the early days they claimed part of our country and our people and made a treaty with us and gave us grants. We want you to show our grants if any before we can talk on self-government and land ownership, etc."

Answer: You are speaking of the old Mexican grants. There is no conflict. This bill isn't going to pass tomorrow or the next day. It will be sometime before the bill goes through Congress and you will have time to read it and discuss it. We don't want you to be hasty in your action, but be assured that nothing in this bill will hurt you. The white cattlemen don't want to let it get through. They are afraid of this bill because they are afraid the special privileges that have been given them will be lost and that you would have as many rights as they have.

Miss Ross: I think that there is one thing that will help to answer that question. Does this bill give the Indians, every Indian, the right to hire his own attorney? Some attorneys who would have given good service have been turned down and some who have been in there are not so good. It has been almost impossible to get good representation. I believe that the Indians should back this bill, even if they object to every part of it, if it gives them the right to have their own attorneys; and their day in court.

Mr. SIEGEL: Although not a part of this bill, Mr. Margold drafted, some time ago, a court of claims bill which would expedite the hearing of the Indian claims. Now if you had to wait to have the Federal court of claims, you would have to wait a long time. Along those lines, Mr. Santeo, we expect to recommend this bill for a special Indian court of claims which will consider all these cases of Indian claims so that even it may be included in your charter.

Question: Suppose we were to throw our allotments back into the pot, how about the improvements we have placed thereon?

Answer: I have already indicated to you that under the plans stated you get as much back as you put in, furthermore you keep all improvements.

Question: Whether a group of Indians that are ready to adopt self-government and charter will not be held back by the illiterate Indians who are not ready to progress?

Answer: The act authorizes us to divide reservations into communities

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and to give a charter to any group which wants to form a community, and to withhold it from those who do not.

**Question:** What will be the outcome of Indians not taking or adopting the so called "New Deal" self-government?

Answer: I don't know. The way they are going now they will probably be extinguished. There are many indications from the other parts of the country to this effect. In the future they will lose all their lands and will gradually lose everything.

**Question:** If the Indians are allowed to vote, will they be required to pay taxes?

Answer: I would say that there is nothing in the law that would require you to pay taxes if you got the right to vote.

**Question:** Is there some way that you can invent some system whereby we could get in Fort Apache our copies of what goes on more quickly? We just received these copies two or three days ago. We wonder if you can't manage to get us literature more quickly.

Mr. SIEGEL: When did you get your first copy of this bill?

Answer: About one week ago.

Mr. SIEGEL: We will try to see you get your literature as quickly as possible.

San Carlos delegation asked the following questions:

San Carlos Apache individual cattle amount value of $750,000. If this amount comes back community ownership, who is going to pay for the cattle, how much and when?

Answer: This bill applies only to land and not to cattle. You retain your cattle.

**Question:** If any Indian leaves the reservation, does he lose his share in the community property? Can he be reinstated and who is going to pay for his share in the community property if he loses and how much?

Answer: That would depend entirely upon the community rule. The community could buy his land if he so desired or if that was in the community charter.

**Question:** If an Indian is one-fourth blood how much share has he in the community property? Has he as much share as a full blood?

Answer: If he is a member of the community and is one-fourth blood, he has as large a share in the community property as a full blood.

**Question:** How will the community cattle be divided into shares of the Indian? In other words if one man has twenty, one man fifty, and one man none, we want to know?

Answer: We are not going to turn cattle into the community at all, only land. Tribal herds will be tribal property just as they are now.

**Question:** How can the community force the Indian to do the community cattle work?

Answer: Well, the community could be given authority to levy an assessment on an individual member if he doesn't want to do any work.

**Question:** Why is it that some of the people vote and some of them cannot vote, why is that?

Answer: In the state of Arizona, an Indian that is living off the reservation can vote.

**Questions:** JAMES STEVENS. It says in this bill that a chartered community can sue. What can they sue for?

Answer: Heretofore no Indian tribe could bring suit or be sued without the consent of the United States. However, the Indian community is fully protected because it is provided that Indian property cannot be taken away by legal process even though the community is subject to suit.

**Question:** Can they sue an Indian for libel?

Answer: I don't see why not. There is no reason why you couldn't sue him.

**Question:** We have a dam on our reservation, what we call the Coolidge Dam. Suppose we have a big rain and it breaks and goes all over Casa Grande Valley, could they sue us?

Answer: Probably not.

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**Question:** by Charles Pettus, Jr., Ft. Apache, Arizona.

In case of suit, if they were organized, could the land be sold to answer to the judgment of this suit?

Answer: No.

**Question:** Could their property be attached?

Answer: No.

**Question:** How could these suits be paid then?

Answer: At present there is no way of satisfying judgment against an Indian or Indian tribe which has nothing but restricted property. Suit would be worthless. (Mr. Stewart) Not quite. If an Indian is sued, sometimes thereafter acts of Congress give the Secretary of the Interior the right to remove the restrictions in order to satisfy such claims. Congress could do that.

**Question by JAMES STEVENS:** I have money in the bank, that bank went broke, what redress has the Indians against that bank. He is a ward of the government, he puts his money in there innocently, and the bank went broke?

Answer: No redress. No more than anybody else. Did he put the money in there individually or did his superintendent put it in there for him?

Mr. STEVENS: Individually.

Answer: If those had been restricted funds, and the superintendent had deposited them on your behalf, and if the bank went broke, it wouldn't have bothered. You would have a preference, and the deposit would have been covered by bonds.

Mr. H. O. Davidson asked this question: If the bill passed, would the federal employees known to us as the Indian Bureau, still remain on the job?

Mr. SIEGEL: We hope that the Indians will be trained to take the places of the men in the Federal Bureau.

**Question:** It is provided in the bill that any community can dispose of any employee in this office, can compel their transfer to another reservation. They can't fire them because they are so organized?

Mr. SIEGEL: No, but because he may be very efficient and yet be very unfit to you. He would be transferred somewhere else, or if the charges are serious enough he would be fired completely.

DIRK LAY: In regard to the San Carlos Irrigation project, what effect will the bill have on that? Some of us say that the Pimas have the first right to the water, but we have heard rumors of a ruling that we do not have the first right. Will this bill have any effect?

Mr. SIEGEL: I don't think this bill will effect that.

H. O. DAVIDSON: I wish you would make it plainer as to the transfer of the white employees.

Mr. SIEGEL: I think it should be made plain that the employees as stated this morning are going to be given a very fair opportunity to demonstrate their efficiency and would be given a fair opportunity to be heard before being transferred anywhere else.

Mr. JUAN KISTO. Does an Indian trader have to pay taxes to the state?

Mr. MONAHAN. This bill would not subject him to taxes.

Mr. TRUMAN JONES. Was there an amendment to Title I, Section 13, whereby a system of financial credit was proposed?

Mr. MONAHAN: It ought to be stated right now that this bill will be amended. The credit amendment has already been made. Congress would authorize the appropriation of ten million dollars to be loaned on long payment terms to the Indians and which loans would be non-interest bearing. Those loans will be made for any purpose involving the economic improvement of individual or tribal lands and property, such as cattle, etc. We not only ought to change the land system but we also ought to provide the credit so that the Indians will be able to use their land. That fund will be a revolving fund so that the amount that is loaned out can be used again as soon as it is repaid.

Mr. H. O. DAVIDSON: Suppose we borrow money. The Secretary of the Interior has looked our land over and we organize. We fix papers and everything that allow us so much money out of that revolving fund, then

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we lose, don't operate right. Will that money be charged to us?

Answer by Mr. Monahan. Not until you can pay it.

Question: If an Indian is a citizen can he go off of the reservation and locate a mine and locate it as a citizen?

Answer: Yes.

Mr. MONAHAN: Are there any more questions that you would like to ask? It is getting late and I have some meetings with some of you after this meeting and if you do not have any more questions to ask this afternoon, I suggest that we adjourn and meet tomorrow morning.

It was regularly moved and seconded that the meeting adjourn until 9 o'clock A. M. March 16, 1934.

MARCH 16, 1934. MORNING SESSION

Meeting called to order at 9:26 and the business of the day proceeded.

Mr. Monahan called the meeting to order and Mr. Stewart explained chart showing what is happening to lands in allotted reservations in north. After this was done Mr. Monahan told the assembled Indians that they were ready for questions.

Question: What effect if any would this bill have on an Indian who has his patent and is paying taxes on his land?

Mr. MONAHAN: It wouldn't have any more effect on it than it would on a lot that I hold in Washington, D. C. If an Indian holds that land and pays taxes on it, it can't be effected by the Wheeler-Howard Bill.

Question: Would his land ever go back to the tribal tracts?

Mr. MONAHAN: Absolutely not, unless the tribe bought it and paid for it. That land is no different from any other land. It is owned by him and can't be touched except by purchase or by voluntary sale.

Mr. JAMES STEVENS: Can an Indian own a store on an Indian reservation without a trader's license?

Mr. MONAHAN: I don't know of any reason why not. All traders' licenses, as I understand it, are to take care of white persons desiring to have a store on an Indian reservation.

Mr. STEVENS: What I want to know is what degree of blood he would have to have to run a store?

Mr. MONAHAN: Any blood at all.

Mr. STEVENS: Suppose he was one-quarter blood?

Mr. MONAHAN: It doesn't make any difference.

Mr. STEVENS: Can a superintendent of a reservation administer an oath for a person if something comes up?

Answer: If he is notary public.

Question: Would he have to be a notary public? Wouldn't being a superintendent take care of that and give him a right?

Mr. KNEALE: Yes, on all official papers. On anything pertaining to the Department of the Interior, or Federal government. On other matters, no, unless he is a notary public.

Question: Suppose a question arises on a reservation and in swearing this person and it is found out that he swore to a lie. What can you do to him? Can you try him for perjury? Can he be tried by the Indian court or tried outside?

Answer: It all depends what he swore to. If it were Indian matters, it would probably be an Indian court matter; if something outside, he probably would be tried outside.

Question: Would he be subject to a perjury charge if it concerned a white community?

Answer: Certainly.

Mr. H. O. DAVIDSON, delegate from the Mohave reservation.

I believe that you have brought that picture (referring to the chart showing the loss of lands up north) along so that the assembly here might see for themselves what the allotment act has done for the Indians up north. I believe that the picture there can be stronger if 1942 is put up there and the Indians owning the whole land.

Mr. DANIEL: (Indian delegate) Mr. Chairman: Under the title of education we have all heard the explanation of that, but I just want a little

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more explanation regarding paragraph (a) under Title II, Special Education for Indians. I shall read it:

(a) The Commissioner shall extend financial aid and assistance on the basis of financial need to qualified Indians for the payment of tuition and other costs of education, including necessary costs of support. One-half of the amount so expended shall be a non-interest-bearing, reimbursable loan to be repaid in installments whenever the beneficiary shall have received employment anywhere, but the obligation shall be temporarily suspended during any period of unemployment.

Now further on it says that notwithstanding the provisions of this section the Commissioner may grant scholarships to any qualified Indian of special promise, no part of which shall be reimbursable. I would like to be enlightened as to why the first part should be required to pay back with interest and this other part is gratuitous.

Mr. WOEHKLE: If you look you will see that there are two appropriations, one of fifty thousand dollars a year in paragraph (a) and the other of fifteen thousand a year in paragraph (b). If you will refer back to Section I, it says, "and he may provide for the training and education of Indian students in universities, colleges, schools of medicine, law, engineering, or agriculture, or other institutions of recognized standing and may subsidize such training and education under the following conditions." This fifty thousand dollars, part of which is reimbursable, is to be applied to the large number of students who may wish to qualify for the minor positions, then the additional grant of fifteen thousand dollars is for scholarships for those students who have unusual ability to go on to universities and colleges and qualify for complete technical or other training, and for these especially gifted ones these scholarships may be granted on a non-reimbursable basis.

Mr. PETTUS, JR.: Would that give these Indians the right to go to law schools and still hold their Indian rights, the right to take up tribal matters?

Mr. WOEHKLE: Certainly, if the bill is adopted and appropriations are made and the regulations under which these scholarships are granted are made out, you will find that they will cover that particular field as well as any other training. The whole purpose of this bill is not to defeat any tribal rights of any one possessing them under any circumstances.

Mr. PETTUS, JR.: It has been my experience here in the Southwest—and I have been to many reservations—that we have people qualified for every branch of training except law, and I find that the different departments have in the past neglected this very important piece of training. We have no lawyers to protect our own interests or we would be very much better represented.

Mr. Madison handed in the following suggestions: You stated yesterday that there is need for haste in the enactment of this bill (Wheeler-Howard Bill) because of the present favorable attitude of Congress which might not long continue. Also that no community or tribe of Indians need come under the law until they were ready. But this bill when enacted should be in such form that when the Indians do wish to function under it, it will be satisfactory and pertinent to their needs. Hence I am offering a few suggestions that will help to this end.

Mr. WOEHKLE: Now before I read any further I am going to say, that the favorable attitude of Congress might continue, but Congress may not continue very long. I think Mr. Stewart made the statement to you that Congress is going to try to get through by the 15th of May and go home. Whenever they adjourn to go home unless they come back in an extra session later in the year, this Congress will be through. We elect a new Congress in November to take office in January, and we would like to have this Congress who are now considering it to act on it. Now I will read the suggestions for amendments to the bill by Mr. Madison:

Senate Bill 2755, page 3, line 13 after the words "adult Indians" strike out the word "residing" and insert "holding membership." Page 10, line 21, beginning at the words "provided however" strike out "the powers

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given the Commissioner of Indian Affairs" and insert therefor "the right of the employee concerned to have a hearing or trial before the Court of Indian Affairs of the community where he is employed."

Page 26, lines 12-18. Strike out entirely. Page 47, lines beginning Sec. 23. "The Indian Tribe or community should have the sole rights to choose their attorney to represent them before the Court of Indian Affairs, Court of Claims, and the Supreme Court of the United States and in all Government Bureaus."

Mr. WOEHLKE: These are very good suggestions and we will hand them to Mr. Siegel to be considered in the rewriting of the bill.

Question: What the Pimas are talking about among themselves is how this proposed bill will effect these four things: 1. Sub-surface rights, minerals, etc.?

Mr. STEWART: All existing rights will be unaffected by this bill.

2. Water and Irrigation rights?

Mr. STEWART: Water and irrigation rights will not be affected.

3. Personal property?

Mr. STEWART. Personal property will be unaffected by this bill.

4. The provision which gives the Secretary of the Interior the right to determine surplus lands and to dispose of them as he pleases.

Answer. That surplus land angle is not particularly applicable in this part of the country. That means that the bill provides that there will be no further disposal of surplus lands, that they will be returned to the tribe.

Mr. KNEALE: I heard a gentleman say this morning that he was not particularly interested in the bill inasmuch as his reservation had not been allotted. I want to ask you this question: Under the existing law is there anything to prevent the Washington authorities from allotting the San Carlos reservation tomorrow, if they saw fit so to do?

Mr. STEWART: As I understand it, there is nothing to prevent us from going in and allotting the San Carlos reservation tomorrow.

Mr. MADISON: I was a party to lobbying at the time of the act of June 2, 1924 giving full citizen rights to the Indians. At that time I held an office as secretary and it was my business to find the Indians who were interested in citizens rights and we went into the matter quite thoroughly. The Indian office had eight or ten provisions in that bill what would happen if the Indians were given full citizenship rights. We asked this question of the Committee at that time, whether this would give us a day in court, and they said "Yes, you can't get anything stronger than that and it is up to the Indians to enforce this Act." Now I don't believe that it is possible to force any tribe to accept patent fees without giving them their day in court. I don't believe that you can allot any reservation today without going to court to take care of it. I want to say this that under that act we are protected by the constitution of the United States just like these Indians were prior to the Gadsden Purchase. They came here and afterwards became wards of the government then they had no rights to say anything, they had no citizenship rights, and if we haven't anything to say in the court, well then, we ought to enact such a law or sponsor such a bill that will do that. I don't understand why this bill should be hastened to be put through at this session. We are told that maybe in May the Congress will adjourn. Well, you have another session to which you may take this bill for enactment.

Mr. MONAHAN: This question about the allotment, whether they have authority or not, I want Mr. Stewart to say another word to you on that subject.

Mr. STEWART: You are mistaken when you think that we cannot allot this reservation or any reservation. The general allotment act of 1887 gives the Secretary of the Interior the right to allot the land of tribal reservations when he thinks it is best for the Indians. You have no right to stop him when he thinks it is best. This bill takes that right away from him.

Mr. MADISON: Then as I take it, the citizenship bill of 1924 does not

affect us in the way the white man has his citizenship. He is protected by the laws of the United States. Don't this law passed in 1924 apply to the white man's citizenship law?

Answer: It does not exceed the power of the Secretary as guardian over ward—no.

Mr. JAMES STEVENS: In other words, the citizenship law that we have is only a name.

Answer: Just about.

Question: If this bill went through, would we become full fledged citizens?

Mr. STEWART: Probably when you pay taxes on your lands.

Mr. MADISON, Chippewa Indian from Minnesota. When the law was enacted in 1924, it provided that it shall not affect tribal or other property. What does that mean?

Mr. MONAHAN: Have you got that act of 1924 with you? I am not familiar with it. (Dr. Skinner went to get a copy of the act from the files of the Indian School Office)

Mr. MADISON: A lot of Indians haven't voted because they think they will be taxed. Right here is a chance where we ought to get some help in the interpretation of that act.

Mr. MONAHAN: I can state very definitely that allotments can be made and have been made until very recently. Mr. Collier is absolutely against them and if this act is passed no more allotments will be made.

Mr. PETTUS, JR. You made the statement that allotments have been made without the Indians' consent. My superintendent informed me that they never have been made without the Indians' consent.

Mr. MONAHAN: Who is your superintendent?

Mr. PETTUS, JR. Mr. Donner.

Mr. MONAHAN: Mr. Donner, would you tell us what you meant by that statement?

Mr. DONNER. I don't know where they have not had Indian consent before making an allotment, at least before they allotted a reservation.

Mr. STEWART. You are right, Mr. Donner, but that consent as you and I well know, doesn't amount to much. The point that I am bringing out is that when the local politicians wanted reservation lands allotted, they saw to it that the Indian delegation came into Washington previously hand-picked for allotments.

Mr. DONNER: I would like to know if this bill directly and thoroughly excludes these people who are responsible for the hand-picking.

Mr. STEWART: It prevents further allotment, so that naturally prevents any activity at all along those lines.

F. BONAVENTURE: I know that allotments were attempted in 1909 against the protests of nearly every Papago Indian living on the reservation. We know that allotments have been attempted against the consent of the Indians.

Mr. PETTUS, Jr.: Would it be possible for this bill to include qualifications of members of all Indian delegations through giving their organized bodies power to exclude illiterate and more backward Indians so that we could get good representation?

Mr. STEWART: That is a matter that could be handled in the charter that would be given to your community. The community can suggest their qualifications.

Mr. WOEHLKE: It would all depend on the character of the individual case. We would have to guard very carefully against discrimination. If you attempt to exclude anyone from the general franchise that charter would never be accepted because it is specifically stated that there must be protection for the minority. On the other hand, you could well state in your charter the qualifications which would have to be met by those who are running for the tribal councils or to act on any delegations, and in those qualifications you could very well demand moral character, clean records, and various other things so that on your delegations and your tribal councils you would have men and perhaps women of high character, of intelligence and wisdom, but I doubt whether the ability to read

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and write would be as important in those offices as the character of the person. All too frequently the people who do not read and write have greater wisdom and more common sense than those who are skilled in the different arts, and you certainly would not want to exclude wisdom and experience even if it were illiterate, but this you can put into your charter defining qualifications for the various offices.

Mr. JAMES STEVENS: Can a group of Indians on a reservation get together, hold secret meetings with an outsider, make a formal treaty, and then go off the reservation and make that agreement binding on the rest of the tribe that are not aware of it?

Mr. MONAHAN: That can't bind the rest of the tribe.

Mr. STEVENS: In holding elections, suppose a bunch of them gets on a spree, gets drunk, would they be allowed to vote under the conditions thereof?

Mr. WOEHLKE: There was a bunch of doctors held a meeting recently and said it wasn't possible to tell whether a man was drunk or not—how are you going to tell?

Mr. STEVENS: If he wobbles.

Mr. WOEHLKE: You might set up your charter with a provision defining drunkness by its outward visibility—by the unsteady gait. Define what drunkness is in your charter and then provide that anyone who shows those symptoms shall not be allowed to cast his vote but shall be cast into jail.

Mr. SANTEO: On page 6 lines 11, 12, and 13, if you will read it, it says:

> "To elect or appoint officers, agents and employees, to define the qualifications for office, to fix the salaries of officials to be paid by the community, to

Does that mean that the Indians have to pay the salaries for these officials or will the government pay the salaries?

Mr. WOEHLKE: The community will pay the salaries of those who are its own officials. As you know for instance, the Pueblos already have a form of self-government in which they elect their own officials and those officials do not hold positions that are considered as political plums; as something that is to be fished for, for the sake of a salary attached to it, but rather as an opportunity to render real service to the community, and where the official would serve the community free of charge rather as an honor. The moment you attach a sizeable salary to any position you attract the politicians, who go out not for the sake of serving the community but for the salary. Therefore, these positions should be honorary positions with only a minimum salary or expense money attached to them, and these salaries for elected officials will have to be paid by the community, whereas, the salaries of the employees such as policemen, teachers, or in positions taken over from the Indian Service by the community, the salaries will then of course be paid by the Federal government. Is that clear?

Question. In other words, if we are to be like the Pueblos, some of them will serve for $30 a year.

Mr. WOEHLKE: That is right.

Mr. KNEALE: How long do you suppose it will be that the Government will be willing to pay the salaries of teachers and farmers, how long is this going to exist?

Mr. WOEHLKE: Do you want to know how long the government will continue to pay the salaries of people who render service to the community or under the present system?

Mr. KNEALE: Under the present system.

Mr. WOEHLKE: Under the present system, it is getting more and more difficult to obtain appropriations because under this system such a huge part of the money that Congress appropriates for the Indian Service does not produce any constructive results, it is wasted in a system of futile land administration. When you think of this chart here which showed the condition of the land on the Pine Ridge reservation and multiply that condition by fifty or sixty, then you will see that the Indian Service is running a huge and enormous real estate business in which every year the receipts of this business go down and the amount of land goes down

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and the amount of work that needs to be done increases constantly, so that within a comparatively short time you can figure out that the cost of running the Indian Service real estate business will be greater than the total receipts from it. Under that condition you can see that Congress will be in no mood to continue the appropriation on the present scale. As you already know Congress has made an enormous slash in the appropriation to the Indian Service for 1934-35, there will be available to the administration and the relief and help of the school work of the Indian Service twelve million dollars less than two years ago.

That gives you an indication of the mood Congress is in. It is not going to continue large appropriations to be thrown down the rat hole of the present system of enormous real estate operations, which defeat themselves and get nobody anywhere. That is why this bill which brings about a constructive system, which endeavors to lay a foundation, which endeavors to rebuild your life, that is why this bill is so important. It builds new hope for the Indians as well as for the whites. If this bill is adopted you will find that these enormous administrative expenses based on meaningless real estate operations will gradually diminish; that the economic level of the Indian community due to the credit machinery to be set up and the annual appropriation for constructive purposes that is made in this bill, will rise, and that Congress will be more likely to make larger appropriations when those appropriations place the entire Indian Service and the Indians themselves in a position to do constructive work and where the Indians will be in a position to help themselves and to go ahead on their own. As soon as Congress sees these evidences of the fruits of the new policy, you can rest assured that it will be glad and willing to make ample appropriations in order that they can keep the work going in the right direction. But under conditions as they are, if these conditions are to continue, you will have to figure on a diminishing amount of Congressional appropriations probably accompanied in the future, under some future Secretary of the Interior, by a new outbreak of patents in fee. That is the only way that the load on the United States Treasury can be lightened, and it is to avoid this possibility of the return to the old methods that this bill has been introduced.

I would like to answer Mr. Madison as to the matter of considering this bill. As you probably know Mr. Collier only has four years in which to set in motion the policy which has been in his mind for a good many years, and one year of that has gone. It has taken him this one year to get in motion all this civil works program and all other emergency measures that were necessary to give the Indians jobs through this past year. On top of that he has used that year to make and formulate the policy which is contained in this bill. There is now a Congress which would probably be glad to pass this bill and the authorizing of the appropriations if there comes from the Indians an expression of support and sympathy for this general policy. As you have all seen through a study of this act, it is largely an enabling act which provides ways and means of instituting these various rebuilding policies, but which makes none of them mandatory. The only mandatory things in that bill are the absolute stoppage of the allotment system and the taking away from the Secretary of the Interior of a number of discriminatory powers, including the one now where he can by force allot a reservation. That is the fundamental principle of this bill. If you approve of that you needn't worry about the rest of the bill, because the rest of the bill is up to you to decide how you want to handle it. Furthermore, you can always, in the future, amend the act in these minor matters to suit your general needs and requirements, but what is necessary is to establish the general policy and to do it right now. If you wait until next year, heaven knows whether it will be possible to establish the kind of policy you want. The time to act is now, not to wait and quibble over line 2 paragraph 3, and so on. Once you have that policy established, you can still go ahead and go over the details and wherever they need amendments you can and should suggest the amendments and the Commissioner will be only too glad to amend it wherever

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reasonable and feasible, but get busy now and put it over while you have the chance.

Mr. PETTUS, Jr.: Mr. Woehlke has just said that now is the time to act. I thoroughly agree that now is the time to act, and my support is with the bill, but I believe that Title IV in regard to Indian Affairs, or Court of Indian Affairs, Sec. 14, where it says:

"Sec. 14. The Judges of the Court of Indian Affairs shall hold office for a period of ten years; they may be removed prior to the expiration of their term by the President of the United States with the consent of the Senate, for any cause."

Why should the president appoint these judges for ten years? Suppose we get the wrong officials in these jobs and they put their feet on the Indians' necks and push them in the mud, or will we be given some say about who these judges will be and how long a period they will be appointed for?

Mr. SIEGEL: The bill provides that the judges shall be appointed for ten years. The reason it was not made for life was that we wanted not to place them beyond control for the reasons that have just been suggested. On the other hand it is desirable to appoint them for not less than ten years, in order that they may become expert in Indian affairs and to give them some power to review what they have done, and to give the Indians a chance to go into court in confidence that their case will be heard by experienced and competent judges.

Mr. PETTUS, Jr.: I would suggest that these organized Indian councils from all the different reservations each year have a representative member sent from the reservation to meet, say in Washington, to discuss this matter of the court, and when they find that some particular judge is being unfair to the Indians throughout the United States that they may be permitted to bring charges against this judge and have him removed from office.

Mr. SIEGEL: I think that you will find the provision on page 44 of the Senate Bill, Section 14, where it says:

"Sec. 14. The Judges of the Court of Indian Affairs shall hold office for a period of ten years; they may be removed prior to the expiration of their term by the President of the United States, with the consent of the Senate, for any cause."

It may be desirable to strike out that clause "with the consent of the Senate."

Mr. PETTUS, Jr.: I believe that would leave the power to the Secretary of the Interior.

Mr. SIEGEL: Is this section 14 satisfactory to you?

Mr. PETTUS, Jr.: It is satisfactory to me if the Indians can in some way be provided so that they can bring charges against a judge.

Mr. SIEGEL: This gives them the right to bring charges.

Mr. PETTUS, Jr.: They can bring them, but how?

Mr. SIEGEL: You could always protest in an official capacity and the President could act on your suggestion.

Mr. PETTUS, Jr.: Our protest to be made to the President of the United States?

Mr. SIEGEL: Yes.

Mr. PETTUS, Jr.: What steps would we take?

Mr. SIEGEL: Prepare a protest at your council meeting and forward to the President or Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and request that it be submitted to the President.

Mrs. GOULETTE, a member of the Pottawatomie tribe of Oklahoma. I would like to give a little experience that will probably be of assistance. I am a member of the Pottawatomie tribe in Oklahoma. I have gone through all of the trials that the allotted members have experienced. I and my people have gone through all the trials of allotment. What you have heard here, the information you have been given, has been absolutely correct. We have suffered a great deal by it and especially because of the courts, of our local courts giving the Indian nothing and giving it all to

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the white man. When I heard of this plan whereby the Indians could have a community by themselves where they could govern themselves like a city has its own government, but yet have access to the outside influence and help to the extent that they would wish to take it, I said then and there, this is the best thing I have heard of for the Indian and his property. Our older Indians were compelled to take deeds, often at the poor judgment of a few members of a family and it was up to the Indians.

Those who were capable of holding on to the property were in the minority. The courts were for those who didn't understand the business and so they got the property away from the older Indians. This is a question that is very vital and it is a question that the Indians should consider earnestly now while they have the opportunity to consider it. The white man's laws have taken everything that the majority of the Pottawatomies have had and I believe that this court of Indian Affairs should have on its benches Indian attorneys, Indian blooded attorneys, whom the Indians know, and have confidence in—not all Indians, that would be too much the other way, there should be an even balance, but somebody at the head of it who could cast his vote for the deciding vote, whatever they were divided on, and the Secretary of the Interior might be able to cast his vote to swing it over to the right side. I believe that in justice this court of judges should have Indian attorneys. You can't expect the Indian to have confidence in a court where it is all white people when they have brains to look back and see that it has been the white men that have had the rule in their hands all these years, and the Indians that have suffered. I would not only recommend that the Indian be represented in this proposed court but the Indian would also, as suggested a while ago be permitted to have his representatives confer on the appointment of judges. I taught in Indian schools, I have gone through everything that an Indian could have a chance to go through. Our present Secretary of the Interior, our President, and Commissioner are the best ones we have had. If we can judge by their actions, I think they are in sympathy with those wrongs that have been made by the others in the past. For all I can see or reason out there are very few things that will restore confidence unless there is somebody they have confidence in connected with the higher offices who will not permit lands to be sold unless the Indians have a chance to find out whether they are selling merely land or valuable minerals. The whites are fighting for that mineral land, they are pulling every string in Congress and every where else to get rights to the mineral on the Papago reservation and everywhere else. Well, I had mineral lands. Where did they go to? The unscrupulous whites went in and located oil and by political pull got that land, and in the end they came near getting every bit of it.

I am for helping the Indian and I am for getting justice for the whites who are friends and who are trying to do justice for the Indians as well as the whites, but I see where these loopholes have been and I know what will happen to our lands and our Indians if the higher ups have everything in their hands. We were told about the Assiniboine Indian who said that he sold his land and bought an automobile and then wrecked his automobile and so had nothing left but what was in his pockets and in his pockets he had his hands. Well, the whites will do the same thing to you. It is done all over the country. People who have had any land will remember that if they should give up their lands for an automobile, when the automobile is gone there is nothing on which to make a living. I have gone through everything myself, I know the Indian school work from A to Z. I know how our Indians are trained by the supervisors, I know all our superintendents. I know all this, and what we want to do is to take the advantage from the hands of the whites whose only idea is to get what they want. The only thing I say is to get the President to appoint some well versed man on that "court of affairs," and when they have a mixed court with the proper judges, then the Indians themselves will get together and they can have justice. We want the white people to live, and we want the Indians to live. We don't want the mineral rights taken

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away from those who have not had a chance to use the mineral that belongs to them. I know what the Indians have gone through, the only remedy I see is to take the absolute power out of the hands of the higher ups and at least give the Indian a chance to have a voice in these things that would be done, whether the mineral rights are to be sold on the land should be for the whole tribe to decide, not for the individual. If it is grazing, let the tribe get the benefit of it. That is my idea. On this court, I suggest that half of them be Indians, not one Indian, but at least half of them.

### Mr. SIEGEL:
If you want your question considered when we make over this bill, you may put it in writing. We are in sympathy with your views under the educational program. Under that title in the bill the Commissioner is charged with the duty of training Indians for the various administrative and technical services, which includes legal work; and as soon as we could train Indians so that they would be competent to do these things and go into these courts, I am sure we would do so. But it would be unwise to appoint an Indian on this court simply because he is an Indian unless he is qualified to do that work.

### Mrs. GOULETTE:
I am acquainted with several men of Indian blood, I have worked with them, who are just as competent to be a member of this court today as any white man is. Not a full blood, but of Indian blood. If we are working for the Indians, we can find Indians who are capable enough that they can fill almost any job that is filled in the Indian service. This training has been going on for fifty years. Not all of them have shown their talent in the same line, some of them have shown their talent in the legal line. There are Indians who are capable of taking charge of an Indian school and keep it up with the times and carry it through. I have noticed in the past that the white man has had friends to put in these places and they have kept them and the white man has not let the Indian have the job. You will find on your records in Washington, D. C., opposite the names of the different employees of service, excellent, good, and so on. Look at the names, then see which of those did the excellent work, who was above the average, who was to be depended on. Find out who shirked their work and then look to the payroll, and find out who has done the best work, and then see if they got the high salary. I have taught, I know all these things. I have been out of the service for over twenty years, but I gave ten of the best years of my life to the Indian service; I was transferred to one school then to another. What we want is for the white people, those of you who are in sympathy with the Indian right now, to get to work and find those Indians who are competent and then show us what you can do by putting those competent Indians in places so that the rest of the Indians will see that you mean what you say.

### Mr. SIEGEL:
I may say that the educational program and self-government program is designed to train the Indians and give the jobs to them and if they don't need the training it will be that much saved for us. We are all very pleased in the progress the Indians have made.

### Mrs. GOULETTE:
The thing to do is to take advantage of the education offered them, but take advantage of it by getting down to business and get everything out of the course that is offered in the schools that you can so that they will have to send their instructors away to get more to teach you.

### Mr. MONAHAN:
Dr. Skinner has just brought me a copy of the Act of 1924 which Mr. Madison referred to awhile ago, and I will read it to you. (Mr. Monahan read the act to the assembled Indians.)

An Act, approved June 2, 1924 (Public No. 175, 68th Congress) as follows:

> "Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled. That all non-citizen Indians born within the territorial limits of the United States be, and they are hereby, declared to be citizens of the United States: Provided, That the granting of such citizenship shall not in any manner impair or otherwise affect the right of any Indian to tribal or other property."

Mr. H. O. DAVIDSON—(Mohave.) May I ask you who proposed that bill?

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### Mr. MONAHAN:
I don't know who proposed that, it doesn't give it here.

### Mr. DAVIDSON:
There was a difficulty came up in the Indians who were seeking to ratify the 18 treaties made back in 1852, whereby twenty thousand Indians organized to get together and see if they could go to court. We have no law, no right. We just sat down and listened when that bill was made by the Indians themselves, and in making that bill they made it so that it would not interfere with the government holding our property and we sent it to Washington and it came back. We sent it from the state of California, then Congress says: "There are forty thousand California Indians, we want a majority vote on it." The twenty thousand Indians didn't care if they had land or not, they were not looking for it. We had to go to women's clubs, welfare associations and work through them to make a majority vote on this bill. It went to Washington, then was presented to the House, then was passed. On that day I was in the Chamber of Commerce in Los Angeles when John Collier arrived, they were anxious about this bill. He read that bill and said that Congress passed on it aimlessly, they knew it didn't mean anything, but it does mean a whole lot to the Indian. Now they say we can become a chartered community, and have full rights if the Indian can make it pay and work out right. But that is the law of 1924, of June 2, 1924.

### Mr. MONAHAN:
I am glad to know that. Now it is getting toward the time when we adjourn for lunch. Do you want to finish this up before noon or have an afternoon session? I have to meet with several delegations and I would like to have a little time.

It was regularly moved and seconded that the meeting stand adjourned until 1:45 p. m.

## AFTERNOON SESSION

The meeting was reconvened at 2:00 p. m.

Mr. Woehlke presiding as chairman of the afternoon session.

### Mr. MONAHAN.
(holding a pamphlet in his hand, speaks to the assembled Indians in the audience.) The man who wrote and circulated this and hasn't got the honesty to put his name on it certainly isn't honorable enough that we should pay any attention to what he has printed and circulated. These unsigned letters that come into our office—if a man can't sign a letter we stick it in the waste basket. The people that wrote this if they are honest will sign their names and tell who they are. If there are objections to this bill, they have a right to express themselves; but they have no right to do it in an underhanded way. They can do it just as you are doing it here on the floor publicly.

### Mr. WOEHLKEL:
This afternoon we are going to hear a delegate from each different delegation sent to this meeting. First we will have a very rare thing among the Indians, a woman speaker. Mrs. Waterman, representing the Fort McDowell Apaches, will come forward and tell us what she and her folks think of this bill.

### Mrs. WATERMAN:
I will try to tell you what our people think. Our people do not object to this bill. For many years our people have wished they could have a say in what has been done on our reservation and now it comes to us that there is a way, and we are all glad and are supporting the bill. Of course our reservation is a small reservation and of course the older Indians are dead, but the younger people are living on. I am not young, but I feel that I must help to hold on to that reservation, and we always have wanted to have a say on our reservation on what they are going to do. As I say we would like to have a say in what they do. We want to say whether they can or can't to it, and now when this bill comes before us and it gives us a chance to have a voice in this business we are very glad and we will support it, and that is all I can say for my side.

Mr. John Rice, Apache Indian, San Carlos, spoke in his native tongue, interpreted by Mrs. Waterman.

### Mr. JOHN RICE:
You gentlemen are sent by the government and I am also a ward of the government, but this is a chance to have a say and I will cooperate with you and I am glad of it. You told us that if we can have a charter we can hold our reservation and we can run our own business and I am glad to hear of that. As long as I remember we never had that

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chance offered to us, but now we are having a chance in our affairs and I am glad to hear it. Whatever I may do for it down on our reservation we are willing to cooperate with you. Whatever water rights I have had before or this bill will give me, I am glad. Some of us have starved and we need a little more land and we have a small reservation. I don't want any white man to come in and help himself even to brush and wood on our reservation without we tell him to. Long ago the government told us not to say anything, just put your head down, don't even look around. Many years back they said that to us. Now I may have a voice in all things pertaining to my reservation and I think it is a good thing. The water pipe that extends on our reservation, we never gave consent to the city to do that. I just want to mention that. If a white man has land and he is living on it and somebody comes along and would do the things that they do on our reservation, I am sure you would say something about it. You don't just keep quiet and let them do those things. And now a bill is before us telling us that they are going to do away with that and I can say what I want to say. I feel this way, that there is a God and I believe that he gave this land to us Indians; if he gave it to us, I feel that it is mine and mine alone. I am saying this to show you that I am just living on a little spot of land, and now you give me a chance to have my voice in its business, in the business on my reservation. That is all I have to say.

DAVID MILES, of Fort Apache. We Apaches come before you and say that we are very much pleased to hear of the bill and what Congress is going to do for us, and by us I mean all the tribes of the United States. What you tell the men here, what the men from Washington tell us here sounds good to us and you say that this bill will guard our interests and give us self-government, but we Apaches from Fort Apache have not had time to study this bill and discuss it, therefore we plan that we can hold a general council when we go home and discuss this bill and then let the Commissioner know our decision as soon as possible.

Chief BAJA, of Whiterain reservation, in native Apache; George Warren interperting.

For two days I tried to find someone to speak for me as I don't understand the English language. I have been waiting and looking up to this time when I could speak to you. There is a line around his home (he means the reservation line) and in this line or reservation there are quite a number of Apaches living, which is Oak Creek, White River, and the others, and we feel that we are all of one blood and we are here today to defend our lands which have been allotted to us by the Government, and if you have anything to say let us have our say about the land. Just leave the reservation land just where it is, don't have anything to say about it. Just before we started out we had a council and most of the Indians had already decided to keep their reservation as it is, and this breaking up our allotment business is no good for us and for our families. This allotment to individuals will only cause a loss of our land which is chiefly our main occupation. I am old all right, maybe you think that I shouldn't have anything to say about the land, but then I am only talking for the good of the future generations who will need their land very much. We have some young men who turned students and who will undertake this business and will attend to it when we are gone, and we will try very hard to improve our schools in every way. We want to retain the schools and then the government will give us some more maybe, then we will have more English delegates like these people here who are all able to speak the English language. Maybe I was only one that was afraid of the white man when the white man started school. This is shown by the fact that I do not speak English. He had the right idea in going to school and learning something. I want to say once more that we want to retain our schools and do not turn the boys and girls out to us and tell us to send them off to school at our own expense, because we are still reservation Indians and then again we have no money, and only by having money can we do something. There is a school but it is too small, then there is a big building and it is just like nothing, it is useless now. Try to make something out of that for us. From that these future generations will say then that it

was through the help of the white man and Indians that they have retained this education. I am pretty sure that everybody here who understands English is pretty thankful to the white man for bringing this education to him and I am very thankful that it is that way that the Government has given an education to them which I don't have. That is all I have to say.

STEVE SMITH, talking for Chief Pete Lambert of Fort Mohave, native tongue, Mr. H. O. Davidson interpreting.

I am introducing some papers at the same time I talk. We have come here and we sit here and we have a meeting here of all tribes of people, all kinds of people to listen to the men from Washington. We listen here, we heard the argument to phrases and clauses contained in the bill, we understand some of it and some of it we don't understand. I want everybody to understand that I am not the chief, that I am just talking for the chief at this time. He is sitting here by me but I have represented him in many cases and he asked me to say that we are disappointed that Mr. Collier could not pay us a visit. We happen to know him personally. We are sorry the Indian commissioner cannot be here because business permits him not to do so. When we came here we introduced ourselves and we explained ourselves as to how the government's promises pertaining to land do not assure us. I can produce the charter that was once issued to our tribe—that is why we are asking your committee when we come in here, "Are they going to give us a charter to keep?" The white government has the same proposition that we have, they had to live up to the new ruling during the administration of President Roosevelt. Mr. John Collier is the man appointed as Indian Commissioner who will give some rights to the Indians and we are glad to come here and have the privilege to talk before you.

We came here and we listened to that bill. You know we have made researches of our conditions and it was very dark, but now a light has shown through that bill. This bill itself is explanatory, what it will do for the Indian, to form communities by charter and use their laws as a corporate body in law and everything of that kind. In reference to the bill there are two particular points that are explained by the Government officials, one is the reducing or taking away the power of the Secretary of the Interior, or the Indian Bureau who have such powers invested in them that they will act as advisor and will be better prepared to act—they have power over us sometimes pretty dangerous. Here is one thing, reducing the powers of the ruling element that rules us, and another point the allotting system. A good many of you have allotments who are attending this meeting and you have more to say about it for this reason, you know what the allotment is, but I agree with the bill that this should be passed and be adopted. This is about all I am going to say of the bill. Those two points are all we are prepared to talk about and we are going back home and tell the people there about it, what action is taken here and it is up to them if they want to form and organize, they have this privilege, but I am sure it is a good policy to be adopted as it stands.

Mr. DAVIDSON speaks for the Mohave delegation in English.

May I proceed, I am going to tell you I am not a chief either, I am just an interpreter, but I have the privilege to talk for Chief Goodman who is plenty smart in an Indian way. I shall tell you that he wanted me to speak on the Federal court to be instituted for the Indians. Mr. Goodman is a great war chief. In times of war they created a system or a law by which they elect him district United States marshal, and he is a boy scout. He did not happen to have his old paper to show at this time but I can show the people here the official paper of the War department. His father's name was Chief Askin. Of course Mr. Goodman here does not take an active part in the Indian Bureau administration. He can't do it because they have the power to run it, and this bill came up and he came down here to represent them and he said "I would like the officials to know my history." Then he said that in this bill there are some parts to be scratched out and some recommendations have been made here, and Chief Goodman said why don't those Indians go back to the reservations and make it

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according to their knowledge, that is what he said. Another matter is about the school system. He said that if what these men say is true, the bill can be adopted, as it stands and then can be amended and changed as they go on and the Indian learns more about it. That is all Mr. Goodman said for me to say for him at this meeting, and I have great pleasure in having the honor to speak for him.

### Colorado River Delegation, Randall Booth, spokesman.
Ladies and Gentlemen of the House: I have the pleasure to be spokesman of the Colorado River delegation from the Colorado River Indian reservation. I want to present to you briefly and pointedly in regard to Indian self-government. Now the Indian who lived along the Colorado River has always thought that he was self-governed before any white people arrived on the scene, and when the Mexicans came over and so called discovered this land, they found some human beings there and when they recognized that they were human beings they made an agreement with the Indians that where they lived that was their land. That was the grant which the Mexican Government granted to these Mohaves about eighty miles below Parker and to the Black Canyon where the dam now is today, and afterwards when the United States bought this country of ours they bought this country with all animals and human beings in it. Of course the Mexican Government tried to show the United States Government that they recognized these human beings as Indians, and that they had inhabited this land long before the Spaniards came and the United States must honor that grant. With that agreement the United States bought this land. But when the United States got this country they ignored such lands and grants, and when this was taken up with the War department they passed a law and set aside this little piece of land, this executive order and they are kept there. So the people went to Washington, the chief of the people, and he was presented with this medal (shows a medal to the audience) and when the chief went to Washington he wanted to know why, when they risked their lives in behalf of their country, they should be allotted this land when actually it belonged to them already. So our organization of self-government extends away back over one hundred years ago, and the Indians of today have a record and they have a constitution and by-laws to carry out the best they can, the condition that existed away back there, and this is one of the main things that that bill brings up, self-government.

Now the allotment act of 1887—why didn't we know at the time that would be a detriment to the Indian, why didn't we know that it would not get us anywhere? Where was the voice of the Indians then? That is for you to answer. Now another law stands before us and we see that it not only deals with the Indians here but it deals with all the other tribes of Indians, and therefore that is why you must decide seriously. If we decide in favor of a bill or if we are opposed, probably we are doing an injury to some of our fellowmen, therefore we must think twice before we leap. I believe that this self-government is the only government and we know that we want to revise this allotment act, so that we can have the whole land to ourselves. Now the most important thing to the Colorado River delegation is that we have land over there and they are building a dam right above us to give us water, as land without water is useless. If we have this land, more land, the point is this, the Secretary or the bill says that we want to have more land and then turns around and puts his hand in the pie and says if you don't need all of this land the Secretary has the right to sell what he thinks you don't need, that is our only objection to this bill. I believe now that it is up to you to oppose or support this bill. This delegation says that we simply come here to understand fully and some kind of figure that this bill ought to be explained paragraph by paragraph. The first thing that this session took up and the bill read that has been the understanding of our people in a general way, but now they want to go back with this thought that they will go back and present this down among their own people and then voice the opinion of all their people to the Secretary. That is the wish of this delegation. This is my personal talk.

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(Mr. Harvey Cawker, representing Pima delegation.)

Friends and assembled Indians: I am glad I have the privilege of saying these words to you this afternoon. We gather here for a great cause. During the two days that we have met we have heard discussed and I believe that we have been shown as a whole, what is before us, and I am sure that the rest of your tribes and you delegates feel as we do. The Pima delegation feels that the matter of the bill before us is a bill that we must back up. Say that we ought to see it go through, with the amendments if possible, and so that what appears before you can be changed. We had the privilege of listening to a man here this morning who knows and has shown to you what the result is in the past years, and they want to change that so as to prevent it from further depriving the Indians of the land that so possessed.

We were told that in 1887 a law was introduced, an allotment act. I will say to you that when this law went into effect, it was like a game of football, and those laws were the rules and regulations that the game is to be played by, and the Indians were to play against the government at that time, and there were few Indians that understood English or could read and write, therefore they did not know what the rules and regulations were and the result was that they lost. You can see for yourselves what the loss is. It is up to you, brothers, if you want the possessions that you have, that you fought for, if you want to keep them for the generations in the future of our own people. And if you do, it is up to you as I see it to accept this new plan, these new rules and regulations that we are to play this game by, and from the way you conduct yourselves in the meetings here, I will say that I am proud of you all, and you can bet that this meeting has been conducted in such a way that it has been pleasing, and I am sure that the officials are pleased in knowing and seeing the way the meeting is conducted. We are here and given a chance from men who, during all these years, have seen the game played by the Indians and the white man and the result always the Indian lose. Maybe the Indians have come to the time when they will no longer be deprived of the properties that they have. It goes back to the President of the United States and on down to all the officials in Washington and the Commissioner and the men who are here today with us. They are interested in you, if they were not, do you think they would take the trouble to come away out here to give us this hearing? I am telling you that to do that is to show you what that bill means to us, it shows that they are interested for your protection and I tell you that it means nothing to them but it means everything to you. If you feel as I do toward the government and the people who are the spokesmen of the bill, I am sure you will back them up. Now under the new rules and regulations of this game we are playing you will have a better understanding, you will have a part just as we are here today to understand the rules and regulations of that game, you will want to do the same on them. You can feel assured that you will play that game knowing the rules and regulations, knowing the loopholes and you can avoid those loopholes and not lose out as you have been doing, as shown on that map that Mr. Stewart showed this morning. I say that this game will be played as the games are played today, I refer to the games that this school played with the white schools. What was the result of the last game? The Indians won that game, and I am sure now that we are through losing. If we know the new rules and regulations, we will win out every game that we play, and I say that the games we have been playing are the white man's games and if you know the rules and regulations of the white man's game you can beat the white man at his own game. It is true that there are in this bill loopholes and we are trying to plug those loopholes, but I doubt if we could do it, I doubt if anybody can plug all the loopholes.

I want to say another word on something which applies to us Pima Indians. There was a bill introduced in Congress years ago and we were told that that bill was leak proof, but there was something wrong with that bill and that is why the government is not living up to the law and that proves, I say, that you cannot produce a bill leak proof and beyond loop-holes. For that reason if you see it the way we do you will accept this bill

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even though there are loopholes. If we can prevent any further loss of our land and play the game more fairly, give the Indians an equal chance to win, we ought to be satisfied to adopt that bill and later on we can plug up those loopholes and that is why I say to the Pima Indians that we should vote for that and I challenge also a statement made yesterday that this bill is nothing but a change from one coat to another. If that is so, are you willing to throw away the good coat that you are offered when it is better than the one you have on? The Pima delegates are willing to make the exchange so that it would be better than what they have today. The delegation feels that they are speaking in fact for the tribe. Long before this meeting the people on the reservation have gathered together and have discussed this and with this understanding the delegation feels that when they go back from this meeting they can inform the people back home and enlighten them and they will be more anxious to support this bill. So I hope that my Indian people will take that attitude and I hope that all you people will take that attitude. But don't take that attitude because the Pima delegation says so, use your own minds, study the bill and you will find that it is for your protection.

Now as was stated while ago from the platform in regard to a paper which you have all heard, that came from some source other than from the Indians, perhaps it may be something good, but any man that will not sign his name is no good and this paper did not come from the Indians, but you Indians are capable of using your own judgment and when you do that, when you use your own judgment on this kind of matter and you do not accept you are hurting nobody but yourself and you have nobody to blame but yourselves when you listen to anything that is put around without a signature, and further by using your own judgment you will learn to depend upon yourselves and stop depending upon someone else. You are intelligent enough to do it yourselves. Before this pamphlet we refer to there was another pamphlet passed around indicating that the Pimas had something to do with it, and I will say that the Pimas had nothing to do with that, so you must guard yourselves and when you find out that you have accepted something not important, this is for the Indians and the Indian people alone to decide for themselves. I thank you.

San Carlos Delegation, Oliver Bellville, native tongue, interpreted. Dear friends and Arizona Indians: I wish to say very few words. I belong to the San Carlos Indian reservation. The only thing that I have to say pertains to those who live on the San Carlos reservation. To begin with I wish to say that in the old days the San Carlos were situated where they are today. I will say that we are concerned as to the matters of our land and everything else on our reservation. These men sit up here, what do they know about our reservation? What I want to say here will not be very much but it will cover all that I may have to say so that I don't have to tell you all of it. I was to tell you that all of the San Carlos Indian reservation is my own reservation and if anyone has anything to do with the land or anything to say about it I want him to show me a paper that will give him the right to say anything about my reservation. I was born on my reservation, I do not come from any other place. This is what I had in mind. I will say that the San Carlos reservation is mine and these representatives of the Government sitting up here that came a long ways I am glad to see them and glad to say this to them. The Apaches were on our reservation in the year 1871 and those that were on our reservation at that time are no longer living and now a younger generation have taken their places on our reservation, and I want to say to these gentlemen up here that I want them to know that the reservation is mine and I want them to make it known that the San Carlos reservation is mine and I want to keep it. A very small portion of the Indian reservation has been cut off and it runs almost inside the reservation and I feel that the part that has been taken away from me belongs to me and I want to reclaim that and there is another place just below the Coolidge Dam that has been cut away from my reservation that I want to reclaim. In years gone by this is the only place we have to live on, but we were forced to fight, we fought different tribes in order to hold this reservation of our own. All

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of that has gone past. I am not talking of this, and I am not taking into consideration the other reservations concerned. I only want my own reservation. That is all I ask of you gentlemen, that the San Carlos reservation is my own.

MR. WOEHLKE: That is just what we want to do, we want to see that he keeps it.

Mr. MARTIN MORISTO, representing the Papago reservation, speaks in English.

Ladies and Gentlemen: We are in a new era now. We are for this country whether we accept this bill or not, but we should accept this bill. We have been told that our chance is now. We are not young any more. In olden times we were young just like young people here but we have grown now and we begin to realize and think for ourselves what this Wheeler-Howard Bill means to the Indians of Southern Arizona, and I would suggest to my tribe that they back up this bill. They say they are going to back up this bill by groups, as fast as the Indians become acquainted with this bill and begin to realize what it means, we will back it up in groups, not as a whole tribe. I think we can all easily realize and think for ourselves, that the old Indians are not going to hold you down when it comes to the education of the Indians. This government has spent thousands of dollars to educate the Indian children to learn to stand up for themselves, yes they are spending millions of dollars to educate our children, and let the illiterate learn from you and show him how to live a white man's life and a white man's way, that is what education means. I will not take much time because all of the other members have stated the same thing and I don't want to say the same thing so I will quit here.

JOSE PABLO speaks in native tongue for the same delegation. Ladies and Gentlemen: I am just one of the Papago Indians who live on the farthest side of the reservation. Sixty years ago or more my ancestors were enemies of the Apaches and here I am a descendant of one of them. It was a law that if any Apache showed up on our lands he was not to go out alive. So it was similar in our case, we were not to go to the Apache reservation, and if we did we could not come out alive. Now everything is all gone, that war has passed away, and all the people are today gathered here as friends, as people who are willing to help each other. Now I say this, that if we get together we can accomplish more by standing together as one person. This new bill that has come up before the Indians is a bill that is going to open up more opportunities for the Indians. It is up to the Indians to push this bill through, it will open up new opportunities. In some cases our people are afraid of it, but we can't get any place by being afraid of it. Some of our Papago Indians are now ready to accept this bill, but it doesn't mean that it is that way as a whole. I am going home and try to talk to the other Indians and when they learn that it is for their benefit we will let the Commissioner know.

CHARLES MCGEE, of the Hualapai delegation. Ladies and Gentlemen: We thank the government for sending these men here and we thank you for explaining this bill. I do not think that I will take much of your time but we are thankful for having these men here to explain this bill and they are friends of the Indians. And our Indians have gone over the matter point by point and I think a whole lot of our tribe have thought about it, but we, this delegation, were not sent down here to say whether this tribe accepted this bill or not, but this delegation was sent down here to understand this bill, and hear the explanations. There are some things in the bill that will benefit us, and we will go back to our people and explain just what is in this bill more fully and a whole lot of us do not understand very many parts of it. But when we go back to our people again we will explain just what has been gone over down here and we will send our decision into the Commissioner of Indian Affairs after awhile. I thank you.

Mr. Sundust of the Maricopa Indians. Friends: We have come here to listen to the Government officials explain the bill which was to be passed in Congress, and I have listened all these two days. The bill itself is all right according to the self-government, but as I sat here and studied it over I find that there was a question that I want to bring up that concerns every

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one of us along the Gila and the Salt River reservation. That is this: It doesn't mention any prior water rights in this bill, and my opinion is that this bill should mention land and water both, because we make our living on these two important things, that is land and water. Land without water is worthless so far as that reason the bill should mention land and water so we will know where we stand. If the land is provided with water then we know where we stand and then is the time that we have the bill to act on. I thank you.

Salt River Delegation. VICTOR MANUEL, representing Salt River delegation. Members of the Committee, Fellow Tribesmen, and Members of this Assembly and Friends: I don't know just what has been taking place here I just heard a few remarks from the last speaker and I will say this, that the last speaker was right. Even though we have been assured by the speakers on the platform and I think they are our friends, that everything pertaining to anything that was not covered by this bill would be added so that it would be taken care of, that certain portion of the bill which has just been spoken about is the most important part to us because I believe we ought to go a little slower and not rush into the adoption of this bill at the present time. We are convinced however, that a great part of that bill is to our liking, and it sounds well and good, and I know that perhaps the authors of that bill are sincere and want to remedy some of the policy that has been in effect for the past years and I am sure that the Commissioner is sincere in his efforts to help us out. But it will be just a matter of time when the older people are gone and we want to take them into consideration. They were the ones that have made the supreme sacrifice in a great many cases in order to hold the present land which we are supposed to have. I think it won't be long perhaps until there will be a shortage of water over there and the white man is going to have the preference first before the Indians will get what they are supposed to get and so I believe in going a little slower in this matter.

Mr. SIEGEL. Would they approve this bill if they had their water rights protected?

VICTOR MANUEL. I think so.

Mr. SIEGEL: Maybe we can add a part like that to the bill.

Mr. MANUEL. If you can add a part to the bill to protect our water rights and if you guarantee us additional water, then we can go ahead and plan what we can realize from our allotment.

Mr. SIEGEL. We can't guarantee it, but we will do our best.

Mr. MANUEL. What about the mineral rights?

Mr. SIEGEL. The fact is that the mineral rights were withdrawn a long time ago. Those rights have been withdrawn a long time.

Mr. MANUEL. A long time ago?

Mr. SIEGEL. Yes, those are protected without this bill and this bill doesn't take it away from you.

Mr. THOMAS VALENZUELA, (representing Lehi). I want to say this much. When we had our meeting, I said to our people that this is a step for the betterment of the Indians. We need self-government, we have had it before the white man came. Of course our ancestors understood it but we didn't because they took it away from us. We need it because the time is coming when the government shouldn't tie us up without giving us that chance. This land question is the biggest. It has been promised through this bill that the government or the Secretary of the Interior in whose hands it was left to say if you need more land, we have got those promises today that they will get it for you just as the gentleman has said, but also just as this last speaker and the one before him has said, the land is no good without water. Of course we realize that when this bill was made those people were born and raised where they don't need any irrigation water, that is why they forgot to put it in this bill, but here in the Salt River Valley we have been fighting for water and we have been fighting on the Salt River reservation for a good many years. Now the promises through this bill are so good I don't see any reason why they couldn't give us water. Give it to us now just to prove how much good they can do us. Just show us where we are and what we can expect.

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Mr. LANCISCO HILL, (representing Salt River, Lehi.) I want to say just a few words in regard to what was said yesterday in regard to having an organization to discuss these matters once a year. There is an organization of the Southwest Indians right here in Phoenix and everybody and all those that belong in the Southwest are welcome to come and discuss with us as we do all these matters. We were formed a year ago. We are not very strong but I am just saying this as an invitation for this organization.

Mrs. Goulette suggested that there was someone in the assemblage that was trying to poison the minds of the Indians into believing that what she had stated in her talk was not true and she also stated that she could prove that every word she said was true.

Mr. MONAHAN. This has been a very splendid meeting. I will tell Mr. Collier the very fair attitude that you have taken about this bill and will give him, as you state, your honest opinions, that you will send these opinions to him after you have general council meetings and tell your people about what you have heard and understood here.

Question. What about the water rights on our land?

Mr. SIEGEL: We will all discuss this later at our meetings after this general meeting is over.

Question. We want to have a public expression here before this assembly.

Mr. SIEGEL. It is my personal opinion that this irrigation act that you speak of was ambiguously drawn and that you should have first rights to the water.

Meeting adjourned at 5:02 o'clock, p. m. Friday, March 16, 1934.

["32", "INDIAN CONFERENCE", "Representatives from the Washington Office who were present:", "Walter Woehlke", "A. C. Monahan", "", "", "", "", "", "", "", "", "", "", "", "", "", "", "", "", "", "", "DELEGATES", "From the Pima Agency, Sacaton Arizona.", "Employees:", "A. H. Kneale, Superintendent", "Delegates from the Salt River Reservation:", "Burgess Burke", "Herbert Shurz", "Ambrose Johnson", "Dan King", "Harvier Enos", "Lancisco Hill", "Vernon Smith", "Charley Chough", "Victor Manuel", "Delegates from Gila River Reservation:", "Anton Jackson", "Alfred Jackson", "Henry Johnson", "John E. Johnson", "Rudolph Johnson", "Xavier Cawker", "Frank Stanley", "G. Truman Jones", "Paul Azule", "Delegates from Laveen, Arizona:", "Herbert Grant", "Leeds Soatike", "Tony Breckenridge", "Howard Sanderson", "Harry Lanes", "Walter Rhoades", "Ambrose Jackson", "Other delegates from the Sacaton jurisdiction:", "Santiago Johns", "Antone Nomane", "Francis Patton", "Vincent Nelson", "Joe Manuel", "Alex Cannon", "San T. White", "Juan Kisto", "Harry Sundust", "Joseph Sneed", "Hiram Carlisle", "From the Colorado River Agency, Parker, Arizona.", "Employees:", "C. H. Gensler, Superintendent", "Norwood Cox", "J. B. Brooks", "P. B. E. Skiff", "Mr. Burns", "W. L. Buck", "Delegates from Colorado River Reservation:", "Charley Paddock", "Winfield Scott", "Kenneth Stoddard", "Daniel Eddy", "Aran Patch", "Dan Lamote", "Billy Sands", "James Spam", "Henry Welch", "William Eddy", "Jay Gould", "Roger Stoddard", "Delegates from Fort Mohave Reservation:", "H. O. Davidson", "Pete Lambert", "Chief Anyarre Goodman", "Steve Smith", "Albert Davidson", "Capt. Geo. Harrison", "Leo Kornes", "Joe Courtright", "From the Sells Agency, Sells, Arizona.", "Employees:", "J. W. Elliott, Superintendent", "V. D. Smith", "Jose X. Pablo", "Frank Rios", "Delegates from the Sells Reservation:", "Frank Vasque", "Juan Joaquin", "Narcho Felix", "Jose Listo", "John Louis", "Joaquin Lopez", "Juan Harvey", "Jose Cruez", "Nesto Lancisco", "Juan Jesus", "Alonzo Marino", "Frank Rios", "Joe Thomas", "Francisco Salcido", "Bernard Manuel", "Carlo Santos", "Esperito Adams", "INDIAN CONFERENCE", "33", "From the Fort Apache Agency, Whiteriver, Arizona.", "Employees:", "William Donner, Superintendent", "P. E. Arterberry", "A. C. Baldwin", "Delegates from the White River Reservation:", "Chief Baha Alchesay", "Jack Keep", "Wallace Altaha", "John Taylor", "Charley Shipp", "Roe Clark", "Floyd Loggie", "David Miles", "Silas Tenyieth", "D. Pettis", "Carter Johnson", "From the San Carlos Agency, San Carlos, Arizona.", "Employees:", "James B. Kitch, Superintendent", "Mr. Allen", "Delegates from the San Carlos Reservation:", "Thomas Dosela", "William Stevens", "George Cassadore", "Richard Baylish", "James Smiley", "Roy Harney", {"bbox": [1231, 339, 13