TELCON

Richardson/HAK

September 11, 1973/12:55 p.m.

K: Hello

R: Hello Henry. How did it go this morning?

K: Well everyone tells me it went very well. And you know was conciliatory on both ... You know, if you're a nominee you have no choice but be conciliatory.

R: Yes.

K: But four of the Democrats said they were going to vote for me.

R: Good.

K: Fulbright or Symington one of them said that the wiretaps matter was considered taken care of. Now what I wanted to check with you Elliot is...what you will give them was Tab C of that batch of material you sent over to me. Is that correct.

R: Right. Only Tab C.

K: And only Tab C and I will be asked to join you there.

R: Yes I put it to Masters and he took it up with the Chief Senators and that's the way it came back. To save some time they suggested that I designate somebody to bring the papers up for him to look at perhaps an hour before we get there and so I have asked J. T. Smith to do that. J.T. is a very reliable guy. He's been in on this from the beginning. He'd know more about the taps then I do.

K: Good. Now I will have to correct for example what it says about May 9th.

R: Yes. I understand.

K: And you think...I'm asking you now as a friend...you're not really my lawyer but in a way you are. Do you think I can fairly do that.

R: Yes, and I've already laid the foundation for that with Case.

DECLASSIFIED

Authentic EC 12/58

BY SARAH D. 6/1/64

- 2 -

K: And I don't think you really can do that.

R: No I can't but I have referred to what you have told me already so you will really be backing me up in a sense and repeating the substance of what I previously told Case and referred to at least in a general way yesterday and this is of course is their reason for you to be there in the hope of...to just avert the risk that when they say that sentence they would feel that they really needed to get part of it from you as an second hand one from me. But I think the account you will give is one there has been some preparation for in their minds already or at least in cases so I think you will give an explanation in a convincing way and apart from your own manner of accounting for it there is the what I think is a very compelling circumstantial extrinsic support for that version of it because it just isn't plausible that it would have happened any other way.

K: Yeah.

R: So, I think all of those things will help. This is what I believe to be kind of...I don't really think they want to block this nomination. I think they've created what is in effect a symbolic issue over this and have gotten the due recognition of their prerogatives. I think they'll be disposed to let it go.

K: Yeah.

R: Case explained his motivation to me as being essentially being that of focusing enough attention on this so that he would be able to contribute to raising the threshold of sensitivity toward this kind of invasion of individual rights. He wouldn't argue that it was never justifiable he would only say that I want Kissinger and you can ask people to think more than twice about it and by going through all this I'm helping to make that point. I think that's the only point he wanted to make.

K: Alright. Right.

R: May I ask you one thing. In the recitation of the requests the only one that I remember that you are directly identified with Hedrick Smith. Could you say...I've said in affect and I hope I'm right about this. I think I did check it with you earlier that Smith or anyone who published leak that you were acting...your only role was to act in a manner consonant with the policy determination that had initially been made by the President in conference with Hoover.

K: That's absolutely right.

- 2 -

R: You were not in any sense an independent originating force but that ...

K: Never, but I don't believe that I... You see I have my talking points to the June 4th meeting with Hoover and I showed them to you and they don't mention Smith. Now [insert your name] if I had gone there wanting to tap him I would have put down a note to myself.

R: OK. I just want to be sure this right because that's what I told them yesterday.

K: I never originated any requests on my own.

R: Well it came out yesterday in answer to a question from Scott and he said I just want to get it clear Mr. Attorney General, that there was no case in which...I've forgotten how the question put but the question calls for a no and I said no that there was no case in which you were the originator or a tap on a newsman. Ruckelshaus broke in at that point and he said that the record was somewhat ambiguous at that point and I think he had Hedrick Smith in mind. He wanted to be sure...so that we then went on to a new little further coloquy the upshot of which was that there may have been a case in which for purposes of FBI records you were identified as the requester but it is true that nevertheless you were not the originator.

K: That is correct.

R: OK. Well I'll see you before then.

K: Right.

K: Good. Bye.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority EO 1258
By [redacted] NAR, Mar 6, 1969

TELCONE

B. Harlow/Kissinger

2:20 p.m. - 9/11/73

K: Hello.

H: Henry?

K: Yes, Bryce.

H: He asked if you could be in his office at 3:30. He's got a bad situation and I told him that I would ask you to do that.

K: Of course. Do you want to come with me?

H: No. I don't think it would help any. It's just to make sure the two of you are together.

K: O.K. I think that's right.

H: O.K.

K: Good. You tell him though that only until confirmation. After that he comes to my office.

H: Oh, I understand that. Of course he realizes he is asking right now something rather large.

K: O.K.

H: Alright.

K: Thank you.

H: Fine.

DECLASSIFIED

Authenticity EC 12/5 8

By: NAR. Dic. 6/10/84

TELCOM

Carl Marcy/Kissinger

2:53 p.m. - 9/11/73

K: Hello.

M: Henry.

K: Yes, how are you Carl?

M: Carl Marcy. This is probably the last time I can call you Henry.

K: Why?

M: I'll call you Mr. Secretary.

K: Will you really?

M: I sure will.

K: Not from my point of view you need to.

M: No, well, you know even after, I even call Mr. Secretary. Look, I sort of wanted to fill you in so we are not dealing on certain things sort of second hand through intermediaries. There are two things in general. One is on this meeting this afternoon and I did talk with Korologos about this, when Richardson and I talked this morning he said that he thought it would be helpful if you were at that meeting or were near by so you could be called and could I sound Senators Sparkman and Case on that point to see whether they had any objection. The reason that Richardson suggested that was because he said that he could interpret the report and he added that showing it to those two members is no longer an issue, but he thought that you could explain it better and he also said that the report could be misleading but could be misunderstood and he thought that he could explain it but he thought it might be better if the explanation came from you. So I talked with the two about that and they said they thought it would be fine if you could be present and that would be, that might save some time. And so after some sort of back and forth business about, I just wanted them to announce that they were going to meet with the Attorney General this afternoon but Senator Sparkman went much further than that and we got the headlines today and there they are. So as I understand it now, you will come along about 4:00 with Richardson and Ruckleshaus to Senator Case's office. Now that office was picked solely because it is convenient to the floor and it is larger than Sparkman's.

DECLASSIFIED

EC 12/25/8

Date 6/10/84

BY SARAH

-2-

K: I think you should make sure that there are no statements afterwards.

M: I'm going to do the best that I can as I tried to do this morning and I hope we can. I think you ought to make that point while we're in there because if there are going to be statements made they ought to be made to the committee.

K: Yeah. And it's really mostly in fairness to the individuals concerned. You know, the individuals in the report.

M: O.K. Well, I think that is very important and I think that point is well to be made. But you'll be there to make it and I'll make it with Senator Sparkman as well as with Case. Now the second thing is you may have been taken by surprise by the Chairman announcing the Monday session. His schedule is to leave tonight. I always buzz up when he's coming back, but he's getting in about 2:00 or 3:00 on Sunday afternoon. He will be here on Monday. We thought the Monday session would serve two purposes. It would be with you if anyone has any questions they want to ask that grow out of looking at this report, although if we can keep Case and Sparkman quiet I hope we can because I think they ought to be very careful what they say, which I will try to do.

K: Good.

M: Secondly, the Monday session will be kind of a clean-up sort of business where, as you suggested a couple of times, these are subjects that you might better discuss in executive session when you are answering questions.

K: I thought it is a good idea.

M: There are a few questions that members didn't ask because they through they weren't appropriate.

K: I think it's a good idea and I welcome it. I was surprised because I hadn't heard about it, but it doesn't make any difference.

M: Well, since it was only decided before he opened his mouth there wasn't any chance to give you any notice.

K: It doesn't make any difference. What time is that?

M: That will be 10:00.

-3-

K: In the Committee Room?

M: In the Committee Room. Yes. And then Fulbright's hoping his talk with both Sparkman and Aiken about this is to proceed to a vote on Tuesday and he doesn't have to, he doesn't anticipate any problems but he doesn't want to make any flat-out promises, which under the general schedule then would mean that if no one objects your report will be filed. If one person objects it has to lie over for a day which means it couldn't be taken up until Thursday and if they act that day they could always stall it for three more days. But I would anticipate you would probably be home free by around the 14th. I'm sorry, by around the 21st.

K: Even with objections?

M: Yes.

K: And without objections on the 19th?

M: Yes.

K: Well, that would be very good.

M: Henry, Senator Javits just walked in and I told him, asked him if he would mind listening in to this side of the conversation. Senator do you want to add anything to what I said? Alright. Very good.

K: Carl, as long as I've got you on the phone and you raised that schedule, I would like very much, you know, if it works out that way, that I can go up to New York the week of the 24th, I'd like to take a few members of the committee with me. How can we do that? You know, it isn't appropriate for me to do it before you've voted. Can you informally line some of them up? I'd like to take the Chairman and Aiken and maybe two others.

M: Well, you sort of have to follow the line here, you know, so that would be Case and Sparkman.

K: That would be fine.

M: Unless one of them says no.

K: And I thought that they might want to come to the session where I speak. And I'm going to be meeting with some delegations and I'd be delighted if two of them were present when I'm meeting with them.

-4-

M: Alright. Well, if that is alright with you I will just kind of sound those out.

K: Would you do that?

M: And the idea would be, what would you fly up the morning of the 24th to give me some idea?

K: The idea would be either to fly up the evening of the 23rd, and I hope very much that they come on the same plane with me. I think maybe the evening of the 23rd would be set.

M: Just so I have some idea. The idea would be to spend the day of the 24th up there?

K: Well, if they could spend the 24th and maybe part of the 25th.

M: Alright.

K: Then I'd take them along to some of the meetings I have.

M: That's a good idea.

K: And then secondly, I really meant what I said this morning and I suppose it really ought to be worked out. I'll take to the chairman about it. I guess the staffs will have to work out the schedule. What is coming up and how we can arrange briefing you.

M: Yes, I've asked Jim Lowenstein, who is a good friend of Eagleburger's, from our side to see what he could develop in the way of what would seem to be a rational dealing with this problem. Whether he's talked with Eagleburger or not, I don't know, but I think...

K: Can I tell Eagleburger to get in touch with him?

M: By all means, because I think if we can get the two of them, Eagleburger can deal out of the problems of your office and...

K: Because I had a number of ideas which I thought it was inappropriate to raise at a public session of how we could get the subcommittees involved, for example.

M: Very good.

K: If Lowenstein would explain that to Eagleburger...

M: I'll have Jim give him a call precisely on this point.

DECLANDED
AUTHENTIC
EO 1258
BY CAPTAIN, N.Y. 6/10/64

TELCONS

Jay Lovestone/HAK

September 11, 1973/3:00 p.m.

(first part missed)

L: appointment you know with Mr. Meany.

K: Yes.

L: Now Friday is out. I'd like to suggest the following. Give me a couple of dates that alright to you and nextly Mr. Meany feels very strongly and I join him in that in the discussion we had with much fruitful in his office.

K: I'll be delighted to come to his office.

L: He'd be delighted to have you and I can tell you that.

K: No, I'm eager to come to his office.

L: Alright. Now, you know where we are. What do you suggest now.

K: Well, I can come any date this week.

L: How about this Thursday morning.

K: OK.

L: Anytime Thursday morning.

K: Wait a minute I have somebody coming from out of town at 11:00 so I'm taken from 11:00 to 12:00 but I could shift those. Anytime up to 11:00 I could do it.

L: Anytime up to 11:00. Up to 11:00 this Thursday.

K: Right.

L: Alright. Suppose I do this. I'll go up and make that suggestion to him and then I'll call you back.

K: And I'd like you to be thinking about giving me a good tough guy to be your labor representative in the State Department unless you're happy with the fellow you've got there.

DECLASSIFIED

Authentic EC 12/95 8

BY R. NAR. DUE 6/16/64

- 2 -

L: I tell you the fellow who is there is going to Naples as Consul General you know so that's out. Let's discuss that whole question. You know what I mean. I'm glad you raised that. So let me make this suggestion. I'll go up to see him now and you suggest anytime Thursday morning say 10:00?

K: Yeah and I'd be delighted. Tell him that my assistant didn't suffer from delusions of grandeur I would have offered it to begin with.

L: Yeah well that's a... I thought that happened Henry but wasn't sure.

K: George Meany doesn't have to come to my office for Christ sake.

L: Listen, and I'm honest with you. He'd feel much more free in the discussion with more fruitful. You understand me.

K: I understand you but there's no takers in my office.

L: It's part of the atmosphere.

K: I'll let you bug me.

L: I'll call you back the moment I talk to him.

K: OK. Bye.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E.U. 12/25/8

By: SAR. Die 6/16/84

TELCOM

Marvin Watson/HAK

September 11, 1973/3:10 p.m.

K: Hello.

M: Hello Dr. Kissinger. This is Marvin Watson.

K: How are you?

W: I'm fine, I want you to know we have followed your nomination and your hearings with a great deal of interest that we want to be helpful at anytime you think we can be and if any members of the Committee. if there is anything we could do we'd love to be of assistance.

K: Aren't you nice.

W: Because Dr. Hammer and I much believe that you offer a unique opportunity to our nation and its relationship with other countries and primarily of the major countries of the world and we'd like very much the benefit of our nation to be ... for you to be confirmed of which we think we think you will be.

K: Right.

W: As you may or may not know Admiral Shepard is a part of our company now who is the son in law of Senator Sparkman. He has already met with the Senator and expressed our interest and he was assured that the Senator ... ______ as it works out which I'm not sure what happened today. But that he was much in sympathy with our position and your position of course.

K: Right. Well he's been very decent at these meetings.

W: Well that's wonderful but just oknow that you've got another staff member of members if you need them without benefit of prayer.

K: Well, aren't you nice. You know sometimes you can think of things that might not occur to me and feel free to volunteer them.

W: Alright. I'd be more than happy to do that and we will look with interest today what the press reports on your hearing today but know that if anything happens that you'd like to share it with us and we can tell you very quickly if we could be of assistance or not.

DECLASSIFIED

Authentic EC 12/95 8

BY NAR. DUE 6/10/84

- 2 -

K: Yeah, well, the hearings went well. I'm going up now to meet with Sparkman and Case on the wiretaps and I hope we can straighten that out. I'm pretty sure we can.

W: Alright. We just know that we stand ready and obviously we would not want it known you would not want it known and we can handle our part of it.

K: Right now you say [illegible] Committee, that's probably a bad thing for me to say...what Committee is that.

W: Of course I'm thinking of Fulbright's committee.

K: Oh I see, the Fulbright Committee right.

W: I'm talking about Senator Sparkman.

K: Oh, yes, yes I understand fully.

W: Right.

K: And I appreciate what you've said and I'll keep it in mind.

W: Thank you so much.

K: Right. Bye.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12958

BY R.J. SAR. DUE 6/16/64

TELCONE

B. Gwertzman/Kissinger

6:03 p.m. - 9/11/73

K: Hello.

G: When I called I didn't realize you were at the Capitol. I gather it went all right from what Sparkman said.

K: I agreed not to say anything. It is up to them to make the judgment. I've made my facts clear and have convinced most people of that, except the New York Times.

G: You convinced me. The reason I called - in your testimony on Cambodia you made a comment about we had proposed a definite cut-off in the bombing and some proposal which was being considered when the Senate acts.

K: Yeah.

G: I didn't know whether you wanted to amplify on that or not.

K: No, I was under oath so presumably it was true.

G: I was just looking for more detail.

K: (Laugs)

G: That's all right. I'm just assuming that this whole business will be beyond everybody today.

K: Which business?

G: About this Committee's seeking this report. I'm glad that Richardson came through very quickly on this.

K: Well, you know, I think of course myself the report sustains what I've said that I only submitted categories of names. But I think that's a judgment the Committee has to make.

G: There's just one question -- I don't know if you can answer this -- In your testimony Friday when you said that some sources would discover an appropriate action taken.

K: I don't want to go into that.

G: All right, because everybody we've checked on the list says they don't know of any action -- I mean, in a sense against that.

DECLASSIFIED

Authentic EC 12/58

BY P. NAR. Lm 6/10/64

K: Well, I'm prepared to explain that in Executive Session but I don't think it would be fair to anybody to discuss that.

G: OK.

K: Nor would it be too fair -- I say this now, there's nothing -- I have no interest in this

G: Right.

K: Except to say it really wouldn't serve anybody to dig into the ultimate depths of that one cryptic remark. But that's off the record.

G: All right, I understand that, but our understanding was that the report said that no serious breaches were discovered. It's not inconsistent.

K: It's not inconsistent and I'm prepared to discuss it with the Committee in Executive Session.

G: OK, and one other question I got down here on the discussion about SALT, there was a reference to SDSes (?) being in the negotiation. I'm a little confused in that I think when Brandt was here the State Department was saying

K: If I used the phrase "in the negotiations" we have a very general formula for that but they are not as units in the negotiation, but again I can't go into that without going into our negotiating procedure.

G: I just

K: I think the better way it would have been to say they were taken account of in the negotiation.

G: I see. I see. Because the German press has probably now gone into another paranoic fit.

K: I wouldn't doubt it.

G: I also just wanted to say I thought your discussion on the Soviets' policy over the three days was extremely interesting and I tried to get more of a text of that in the paper than I was able to do but it give you a very good grip for the - it's obviously a question of some sensitivity.

DECLARED
AUTHORITY EC 12558

By JOHN F. DEANE 6/19/94

TELCONE

Attorney General Richardson/Mr. Kissinger

6:18 p.m., September 11, 1973

R: Hello, Henry.

K: Elliot, I just wanted to check with you how you thought it went.

R: Well, I thought it went very well on the whole. The low-key and small number of questions I thought were the best indicator of that.

K: Yeah.

R: I was a little disappointed that you may have to go back but I didn't anticipate that if you --

K: No, I had to go back anyway for an Executive Session. I mean, that was scheduled this morning independent of this.

R: Well, if you have to go back for this purpose, if it weren't in the Monday session, it would be before that so it won't entail any further delay. I thought it went fine.

K: That's what I thought. I thought, you know, that they picked out that idiotic statement. There's no one here I can trust except Haig. God knows in what context I said that.

R: Well, you make statements like that -- sometimes half facetiously, half in sheer exasperation.

K: Oh, yeah. I just don't know what it proves.

R: Yeah, I know. But I think the manner --

K: I was debating whether I should make that as a summing up statement these four questions that I discussed with you the other day but I was afraid it might make it too formal but maybe I should have done it.

R: Which 4 questions?

K: I mean, Was it legal? Did we follow legal procedures? Did I follow established categories?

R: I think better not.

K: I just thought this would raise more problems.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12958
BY R.J. NAR. DUE 6/16/64

AG Richardson/Mr. Kissinger

2

R: Yeah, I think that instinct was right. No, I think what it was could be.

K: Yeah. You do?

R: Yes.

K: Well, I wanted to thank you for your role in this. I thought you behaved with great delicacy and strength. I'm serious.

R: Well, I appreciate the opportunity to be helpful, really. Okay. Well, if I can be of any further help --

K: Well, you were very helpful and I'll call Ruckelshaus too and thank him.

R: Thanks very much, Henry.

K: Right, Elliot. I'll look forward to seeing you Monday.

R: Yes. Good. It will be fun. Thanks.

K: Thank you.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E012958

BY DONAR. DEC 6/10/64

TELCORN

William Ruckelshaus (Asst AG)/Mr. Kissinger

6:25 p.m., September 11, 1973

K: Bill, I called you for two reasons. One, to thank you for your role
this afternoon which was very strong and helpful.

R: Well, it's all right, I was glad to be there.

K: And secondly, to get your judgment on how you think it went.

R: Well, I think it went fine. I thought you were very convincing in
talking to -- I don't think Sparkman needed much convincing but Case
is a much more difficult person to read and feels very strongly about
this issue. I don't think there's any problem. I think they'll just
take it to the Committee and my guess is they will ask you to come to
some Executive Session next week.

K: Well, the Executive Session is already scheduled anyway so they
can absorb it in that.

R: Right. I think that they are all satisfied including the staff member
there. It was my impression at any rate.

K: Yeah, that was my impression and I just wanted to check it with
you.

R: Well, I think it was a useful meeting. They may have a pointed session
but that will be the end of it.

K: Well, all I say for you is when you give a press conference when it's
in pursuit for 4 months afterwards.

R: (laughter)

K: You don't waste your shots.

R: (laughter) I promise not to give any more.

K: Okay, thanks you.

R: Bye.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E.O. 12518

By: JONAR, Die 6.10.84

TELCOM

Marilyn Berger/HAK

September 11, 1973/6:55 p.m.

K: Hello

B: Hello, how are you?

K: Don't you dare start your raising of questions. This is a friendly call.

B: I just called because I am back. I watched part of your appearance in the Caucus Room. I watched you and have been reading about you. How are things going? You said I should call you before you are Secretary of State and now I am calling you.

K: I wanted you to call me. I think things are going along fine don't you?

B: Yes. You expect to be in New York on the 24th don't you?

K: It looks that way.

B: I hope so. Do you know how long you are staying?

K: Three days the first week and two or three days the second week.

B: You are going twice?

K: It depends on when I get confirmed.

B: What chances to I have of seeing you?

K: You said nothing should change between us. That means once a year.

B: No seriously, any possibility of getting in to see you?

K: After I am confirmed.

B: Not before that.

K: I doubt it.

B: Is Murray on your list to be called. I don't know if he has tried to call you but...

K: He hasn't.

DECLASSIFIED

EO 12958

Authority

BY MAR. 6/1984

- 2 -

B: Can I ask you one question someone asked me to ask you?

K: What is it?

B: Concerning an oil boycott.

K: I am opposed to it.

B: You are opposed to it.

K: I don't know what you are talking about.

B: I understand the major oil firms are pushing for it.

K: No, no, don't take that answer seriously. I haven't studied it.
I really have not.

B: And they've not pushed it with you. I understand McCord pushed it with you or somebody.

K: I discuss only State Department matters with McCord.

B: Seriously, can we get lunch or dinner or a meeting or what.

K: Maybe lunch. Next week. Next week call me.

B: I'll call Monday.

K: OK. Bye.

DECLASSIFIED