REPORTER: If you have been following the news, you know that the present Italian government could very well fall at any day, and that there's a very good possibility that a new Italian government could include direct participation by the Italian Communist Party.

All these developments occur just at a time when David Brinkley and Dr. Henry Kissinger, former Secretary of State, will be on the National Broadcasting Company tonight at 9:30 Eastern, 8:30 Central Time with a 90 minute documentary on the spread of Communism in Western Europe. The Communists have been gaining strength in a number of Western European countries--specifically in Italy, France, and in Spain. And that subject will be discussed at length tonight.

This morning we're talking with Dr. Kissinger about what is going on in Italy. If there is a new government in Italy,

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and if the Communists have a role in it, as it seems likely
that they will, they then will have access to NATO secrets,
or at least to the NATO organization.

Is that going to be permissible from the United States'
point of view?

DR. HENRY KISSINGER: I think that a government that has
Communist participation will change the nature of NATO. It
will be extremely difficult to share information. In fact,
It will be impossible to share information, as has been the
case, and the whole pattern of consultation will change.

REPORTER: The Italian Communists insist that they are
representing the Italian national interest, and not a philosophical
Interest of some kind, and certainly not the Soviet Union.

KISSINGER: The Italian Communists have supported NATO
to the extent that they do, only as an instrument of improving
relations with the Soviet Union. When they were asked, when
one of their leaders was asked about what they would do in
case of a Soviet attack on Western Europe, they said that was
inconceivable. So the whole purpose of NATO as a defensive
alliance against Soviet attack is denied in its essence by
the Italian Communists, and on no issue--I have had somebody
look through the back issues of the Italian Communist newspaper--
on no issue where the Soviet Union and the United States differ
has the Italian Communist Party supported the United States

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over the last two years. And statistically that's just impossible, if they are in defense.

REPORTER: Mozambique, Angola, all the different ventures that are part of the Soviet Union.

KISSINGER: They've always supported the Soviet side. And last summer there was a rather interesting phenomenon. The Soviet Union shifted its support from Somalia to Ethiopia, and within one week the Italian Communist Party, and every other West European Communist Party also changed their support from Somalia to Ethiopia.

REPORTER: As you know the Carter administration has come out in strong opposition to the prospect of any Communist participation in the Italian government. What effect is that likely to have? It seems like too little, too late.

KISSINGER: I think the administration was too ambiguous in the early part of this year. I think it is important, I support strongly what the administration has done yesterday. I think it's as important as those Italians, and other Europeans, who care what the United States think, know that the United States is opposed to Communist participation, and I think it can only have a helpful fact, and end the confusion that has been created by some of the Communist tactics, and to some extent, by some of our own statements.

REPORTER: What do we do about the internal politics of Italy? After all, the Christian Democrats have proved that

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they're not able to solve the many problems that face Italy. It is a kind of bankrupt party, in many ways. It's been hanging on.

KISSINGER: But nobody can solve all of the problems of Italy. But I think it is important that the leaders of the Christian Democratic party, and the leaders of the other democratic parties in Italy know that the United States has not given up on democracy in Italy. Then, they have to do it themselves. We cannot make, we cannot govern for them, and we cannot appeal to the Italian public for them. But we can give them the moral support, and where necessary, material support in the economic field, by helping them create viable societies to deal with the Communist danger.

REPORTER: Do you think that we've got to be spelling out in greater detail what we would do, if the Communists were included, or if they were to be kept out of the government?

KISSINGER: No, I think that the statement that was made meets the immediate needs. But we should leave absolutely no question in European minds about the gravity with which we look at this problem, and secondly, that we do not consider the Communist party a democratic party.

REPORTER: Can we substantially alter NATO, and still have it an effective military alliance, with Communists in power in some form in Italy.

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KISSINGER: I would doubt it. Incidentally, I don't believe that the Communists are going to join the government in this turn of the wheel. I think what is going to happen is that there will be a greater participation of Communists at levels below the Cabinet, and that the Communist party will vote for--right now, they're abstaining--that the Communist party will join the governmental coalition. But the process is in the direction of their participation in government, unless the democratic parties get together rapidly, and reverse the trend.

REPORTER: What about the participation of Communism, or, of Communists in the governments of France and in Spain in the near future, would you say?

KISSINGER: Well, In France the situation is slightly different. In France the Communists have broken with the Socialists, and right now their strategy is to destroy the Socialist party in order to become the chief opposition party on the left. In other words, in order to create Italian conditions in France; so they're about two, or three years in terms of their strategy, behind the situation of Italy.

In Spain they're trying to present themselves as a democratic party; and there their leadership is extremely able, and what happens in Spain will depend importantly on the evolution in Italy, and to some extent, in France.

REPORTER: You'll hear more from Henry Kissinger on this