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MR. LEHRER: Good evening. The Middle East crisis remains the lead story. President Bush authorized the call up of thousands of military reservists and he said the United States wants but does not need further U.N. approval for military action in the Gulf. We'll have the details in a moment. Robin.

MR. MAC NEIL: The Newshour's extended coverage of the crisis continues tonight with a look at the role of the reserves President Bush is calling up (FOCUS - RESERVE STRENGTH). Charlayne Hunter-Gault, who's on a tour of Middle East countries, has a News Maker (NEWS MAKER - IN THE MIDDLE EAST) interview with President Ozal of Turkey. He says we are closer to war than ever and he sees no political solution. Finally we have a conversation with former Sec. of State Kissinger (CONVERSATION).

## NEWS SUMMARY

MR. LEHRER: President Bush called out the reserves today. He signed the order at his vacation home in Kennebunkport, Maine. Defense Sec. Dick Cheney said the exact number of reservists involved will be announced tomorrow. Most will be assigned to fill the state side jobs of active duty forces, but some will be sent to Saudi Arabia. The President held a news conference this afternoon. He talked about the military situation.

PRES. BUSH: We stand shoulder to shoulder right there in the Middle East with the armed forces of 22 other nations, from the Middle East, from Europe, and around the world. And let's be clear, as the deployment of the forces of the many nations shows, and as the votes in the United Nations show, this is not a matter between Iraq and the United States of America. It is between Iraq and the entire world community, Arab and non-Arab alike, all the nations of the world lined up that oppose aggression.

REPORTER: Talking about the U.N. action that you would hope to have. The U.S. forces fired across the bow that then was allowed to continue on and is now in Yemen. Why did they not pursue that farther? Do you want to wait until you have that U.N. authority?

PRES. BUSH: Well, you know, we feel we have all the authority we need, and the world leaders I've talked to, particularly Francois Mitterrand and Margaret Thatcher, agree that we have all the authority that we need. We have been trying, and I think prudently so, to work with other countries around the world. And the more unanimity we get out of the United Nations, for example, the better.

REPORTER: How long will you wait for that U.N. approval?

PRES. BUSH: We haven't made a determination. I think the signal is out there as we pursue certain vessels and clearly have superior, have the demonstrated ability to board these vessels, that we can do it. So now the question is how much more U.N. action benefits this idea of the world staying more closely together, and I might be prepared to give a little time, speaking just for the U.S., we're only one country there, important one though it may be, in order to get a more collective action.

REPORTER: Mr. President, how constrained do you feel by the Americans trapped in Kuwait as you make your decisions?

PRES. BUSH: I think any decision maker in the United States or in any of these countries is concerned about the lives of innocent civilians, innocent people, and so you weigh that very thoroughly against your actions. Having said that, international law, in this case the Chapter 7 sanctions, must be enforced.

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REPORTER: Mr. President, we asked you last week if you saw any hope of a diplomatic solution. You said, "I don't see it right now." Do these statements from Baghdad, that they are willing to put their cards on the table, increase the hopes there will be a diplomatic solution?

PRES. BUSH: If they're willing to put all their cards on the table, that's good. I didn't hear that, but if they're willing to put them all out there, including complying with international law, that would be good. And in terms of readiness to talk, we've got a very able person there in Baghdad who is prepared to talk. And they came in the other day and said they'd like to talk. Well, there is he is, available to talk, but please, don't tell us that they're going to talk with conditions that are unacceptable under international law, because that is not the way it would work.

MR. MAC NEIL: The five permanent members of the United Nations Security Council met today on a proposal for joint military action to enforce the embargo, the five members of the U.S., France, Britain, China, and the Soviet Union. There have been reports that the Soviets oppose details of the plan. When asked about that, President Bush acknowledged there are differences with the Soviets over further U.S. action. A Soviet military official said today that nearly 200 Soviet military advisers are in Iraq. He said they were sent there before the Iraqi invasion to train Iraqi soldiers to use and maintain Soviet built weapons, but he said they are not involved in any military operations.

MR. LEHRER: The U.S. aircraft carrier Saratoga passed through the Suez Canal today. So did two guided missile cruisers. They are headed for the Red Sea where they will join a flotilla of other U.S. ships. That includes four carriers and the Battleship Wisconsin. Turkey's defense minister said his country was considering joining the multinational force in the Gulf. Turkey's air force has been on alert since the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait August 2nd. Charlayne Hunter-Gault will have an interview with Turkish President Ozal later in the program.

MR. MAC NEIL: Jordan closed its borders to refugees from Kuwait and Iraq today. The announcement followed a new conference by King Hussein in which he said Jordan was having difficulty handling the influx. He said 185,000 refugees have come to his country since the beginning of the crisis. Two-thirds of them remain there. The King also announced that he would go to Iraq and other Arab nations tomorrow to try to prevent a war in the region.

MR. LEHRER: The U.S. government will defy Iraq's order to close all embassies in Kuwait by Friday. State Department Spokesman Richard Boucher said the embassy staff would be reduced but the facility would stay open. He said there are 120 U.S. diplomats there now. He explained their mission.

RICHARD BOUCHER, State Department: All essential embassy personnel will remain in Kuwait for the express purpose of serving American citizens detained in Kuwait. The United States government wants American citizens to be assured that your welfare is foremost in our thoughts, and we are determined to continue working for your release from Kuwait and your safe return to your families. We advise you to stay in close contact with the U.S. embassy in Kuwait, to stay in your homes, and to keep a low profile.

MR. LEHRER: And he said any American attempting to escape Kuwait should plan carefully. He said Iraqi forces are under orders to stop them.

MR. MAC NEIL: Iraq claimed today that two unidentified aircraft penetrated its air space from the direction of Saudi Arabia. Iraq's official news agency said the planes crossed five miles past is Southern borders. Iraq now considers Kuwait, which it annexed after its invasion, to be part of its territory. The report did not identify the planes or say whether they were military. An Iraqi oil tanker was allowed into a port in Yemen today. The tanker had ignored warning shots from U.S. warships over the weekend. The U.S. ship shadowed the tanker until it reached Yemeni waters. Yemen allowed the ship to dock despite its promise to abide by the embargo against Iraq.

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MR. LEHRER: We go now to some perspective on President Bush's decision to mobilize military reservists. It is the first time the citizen soldiers have been mobilized since the peak of the Vietnam War, 1968, when a few thousand reservists and National Guardmen were called up. Bruce Van Voorst is the Senior National Security Affairs Correspondent for Time Magazine who has been traveling in the Middle East with Defense Sec. Cheney, Martin Binkin is a former Air Force officer, now senior fellow at the Brookings Institution in Washington. His latest book is on the reserves of National Guard. Bruce Van Voorst, was the call up based on a real military need, or a desire to send a message to Iraq?

BRUCE VAN VOORST, Time Magazine: Both of the above. I think that it is clear that the military necessity is there ever since we have had the total force concept in the military it has been clear that you have to call up the reserves very rapidly. The notion that these reserves are some troops sitting in barracks or at home waiting for an emergency to be called is a little bit of a misleading idea because in fact the U.S. can not mobilize very substantial forces without calling on these reserves as they are doing. As you suggest there is also a political consideration both for the American people and the Iraqi. Making sure that we are serious in this.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Binkin why is it that we can not mobilize supposedly 65,000 troops that are supposedly in the Middle East. Why can't we mobilize that number of troops with out calling up reserves.

MARTIN BINKIN, Military Analyst: We certainly have the capability of using other active duty forces in the place of these reservists that is clear. It is equally clear because of actions that the Army has taken in the past to put a lot of it capabilities in the Reserve you find some of the functions almost exclusively in the Reserve such as water purification units are found mostly in the Reserves. Civil Affairs units are found mostly in the Reserves. So when you need these kind of units you have to go to the Reserves. I think that it is important to understand that while many Americans feel that this Reserve mobilization is a bolt out of the blue. It certainly isn't that. What we are witnessing now is the normal next step in the implementation of the Persian Gulf contingency plan which we have had for ten years ever since President Carter drew the line in the Sand called the Carter Doctrine. We had contingency plans for the use of force in the Persian Gulf which integrated the Reserves very closely and gave them an early deployment mission. The UNits that will be mobilized will not be surprised by being mobilized because they have trained for this mission.

MR. LEHRER: For the most part they are not combat troops. Is that correct? Give us a feel for the kind of folks that will be called up.

MR. BINKIN: Based on the information that has been given so far it is not clear which units are being mobilized. The Army reserves generically is composed of two components, The Army Reserve and the Army National Guard. The Army Reserve is basically support units and the Guard is basically combat units. So we have this call up based on the information that we have so far is going to be concentrated amongst support units although it wouldn't be surprising to call up some national guard combat units. There is one National Guard Brigade, the Georgia National Guard, it is called the 48 Infantry Brigade that is assigned to the 24th Infantry Division. Elements of which have already deployed over there. So it has been by design. The Division is composed of two active brigades and one National Guard Brigade. The concept being if we deploy that division that we would mobilize that Brigade out of the Georgia National Guard.

MR. LEHRER: What have you picked up Bruce on the specifics, on the kind of folks that are going to be called up.

MR. VAN VOORST: It will be basically the support types at this juncture. You know this aspect of the Reserve was a cost cutting effort. We were trying to save money with an all volunteer Army.

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["P.4", "YUKISHIBA at: ee ee, es out", "3", "of the Reserve was a cost cutting effort. We were trying to save money with an all volunteers Army. MR. YAN VAOOR21: It will be basically the support these at this juncture. You know this aspect to be called up.", "MR. LEHRE: What have you picked up Bruce on the specifics, on the kind of folks that are going to be called up?", "MR. BINKIN: Based on the information that has been given so far it is not clear which units are kind of folks that will be called up.\nMR. LEHRE: For the most part they are not combat troops is that correct? Give me a feel for the mission.\nMR. BINKIN: Based on the information that has been given so far it is not clear which units are kind of folks that will be called up.\nMR. LEHRE: What have you picked up Bruce on the specifics, on the kind of folks that are going to be called up?", "MR. LEHRE: What have you picked up Bruce on the specifics, on the kind of folks that are going to be called up?", "MR. LEHRE: For the most part they are not combat troops is that correct? Give me a feel for the mission.", "MR. LEHRE: For the most part they are not combat troops is that correct? Give me a feel for the mission.\nMR. LEHRE: What have you picked up Bruce on the specifics, on the kind of folks that are going to be called up?", "MR. LEHRE: What have you picked up Bruce on the specifics, on the kind of folks that are going to be called up?", "MR. LEHRE: Why can't we mobilize that number of troops with out calling up abnormally in the Middle East. Why can't we mobilize abnormally 62,000 troops that are already in the Middle East. Why can't we mobilize abnormally 62,000

AUG-23-1990 11:45

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We could not allow as many troops as we needed to fill all of our divisions. These reservists will do the same things that Marty mentioned, water purification, drivers, maintenance people and they fill out and do essentially the non combat. While those who train regularly will be doing the fighting. It is important to point out that at this point they are not going to combat.

MR. LEHRER: For the most part that is true is it not?

MR. VAN VOORST: There has been continuing debate on just how qualified the Reserves and the Guard are. Certainly training 238 days a year they are not going to be as qualified as active service people.

MR. LEHRER: Bruce you were around Secretary Cheney and his folks the last few days. Was this Reserve deal a big decision or was it considered more or less a routine decision that had to be made as Mr. Binkin said once the decision was made to deploy this many troops?

MR. VAN VOORST: As I mentioned last week this was inevitable. With the force structure they wanted to deploy we had to do this. There is also political considerations raised both for the U.S. public and for the Iraqis. Certainly there is no immediate need for them right now. They could fill this out with regular officers but they want the political impact.

MR. LEHRER: The nuts and bolts on this Mr. Binkin. The law requires any Reservist who is called into active duty, the law requires his or her employer to hold the job open is that right?

MR. BINKIN: That is right but there are a lot of loopholes in that. For Example it not only requires that they hold a job but that the individual be given the pay increases that he would have normally been given during that period. However there is also a provision that says if that job would have been done away with while the individual is gone you don't have to take him back.

MR. LEHRER: Nasty break fellow.

MR. BINKIN: There are loop holes that you can drive a truck through in that.

MR. LEHRER: And there is no provision for any kind of lose of pay differential?

MR. BINKIN: That varies. You have three different types of actions. One is that there are some employers that will continue to pay full for a certain period of time. For example the Federal Government will pay an individual who is mobilized full pay for 15 days. Some organizations like General Motors and some of your Union Organizations do likewise. Others will make up the difference in pay between what a GI will get and his normal pay. While the majority will do nothing at all.

MR. LEHRER: What about dependents of Reservists called up who stay state side. Can they go with the reservist.

MR. BINKIN: On you mean to Saudi Arabia.

MR. LEHRER: No I mean if they assigned to state side bases. Will they be treated like any other professional military person?

MR. BINKIN: I rather doubt it because, I think, the intention here is on short term deployments because the President only has the authority and this is relatively new authority he is using to be able to mobilize reserves without declaring a national emergency or without a declaration of war. He has the authority to mobilize with a stroke of a pen which he did today by signing an executive order to call up 200,000 for 90 days. After that 90 days he can extend for another 90 days but beyond that 180 day period it would require Congressional action or the declaration of an emergency. So he is planning, I think at this point on short term and probably not would not move

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MR. LEHRER: What is the thinking with in the Defense Department about how long they are going to need these people?

MR. BINKIN: I think they are gearing for a long time deployment. The troops are at the moment of course living in tents.

MR. LEHRER: You are talking about the troops in Saudi Arabia.

MR. BINKIN: In calling up these here, We are in for a quite a long time before all of this is going to be resolved. The real question is of course how large this deployment over seas is going to be become.

MR. LEHRER: It is a difficult question and I am not going to apologize for it. I am just going to ask it. What is the thinking around Defense Secretary Cheney and the top echelon in the military whether or not this thing can be resolved short of war, short of a military action or confrontation of some kind.

MR. VAN VOORST: The Secretary keeps repeating the same objectives that the President has stated. We are there to defend and deter but it is clear that we are getting involved in an international embargo and blockade which has unforeseen ramifications for us and there fore nobody can say where it is going to go but it is clear that there is every possibility that this thing somehow or another can get out of hand. So therefore they are very very concerned. There is a high level of nervousness.

MR. LEHRER: Do the military people, are they concerned particularly concerned about something happening accidental. A confrontation between two fighter planes at 35,000 feet or some body stepping over a line here. Two ships not identifying properly and wham we are into it.

MR. VAN VOORST: With every passing hour we have more and forces, equipment and weapons aimed at each other out there and who knows what could happen when the air craft and ships would get involved in something like that but I think that they would be able to constrain that. What we must think in terms of is whether in fact the defensive effort that we are preparing for now might not at some point with international support develop into something of an offensive force.

MR. LEHRER: Yes and they are prepared to do that militarily, the professional are?

MR. VAN VOORST: You should see the troops out there. We were on the Eisenhower for example and they are operating full tilt and we were with the troops in Saudi Arabia and they are digging in and working hard. If it goes we will fight at night a lot.

MR. LEHRER: Okay Mr. Van Voorst, Mr. Binkin thank you very much.

NEWS MAKER - IN THE MIDDLE EAST

MR. MAC NEIL: Next tonight we begin a series of reports from Charlayn Hunter-Gault in the Middle East. We start with Turkey which has become one of the most important allies of the U.S. in its showdown with Iraq. Turkey is the gateway between Europe and the Arab World. Between the Mediterranean in the West and the Persian Gulf and Iraq in the East. Sharing a two hundred mile border with Iraq and traversed by a key Iraqi pipeline which they have closed Turkey is now on the front line of the crisis. With a population of over 50 million people it is the regions most populace country. It also has one of the lowest standards of living with a per capita income of just over a $1000 a year. The country's armed forces total 660,000 men and nearly 5000 American troops are there as part of NATO. Most are at an Air Force base in the South, 500 miles from the Iraqi

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["VIRGINTIS 81988 85 50A", "5", "there as part of NATO. Most are at an Air Force base in the South, 500 miles from the East. 2100 a year. The country's armed forces total 660,000 men and nearly 2000. American troops are country. It also has one of the lowest standards of living with a per capita income of just over a $100 a year. The country's armed forces total 660,000 men and nearly 2000. American troops are", "NEWS MAKER - IN THE MIDDLE EAST", "MR. LEHREH: Okay, Mr. Van Aoorst, Mr. Binkin, thank you very much.", "In and working hard. It goes we will fight at night a lot.", "MR. VAN AORST: You should see the troops out there. We were on the Eisenhower for example and they are operating full tilt and we were with the troops in Saudi Arabia and they are digging", "MR. LEHREH: Yes and they are prepared to do that militarily, the professional are.", "tactice.", "now might not at some point with international support develop into something of an offensive. What we must think in terms of it is whether in fact the defensive effort that we are preparing for would get involved in something like that but I think that they would be able to contraind that. Aimed at each other out there and who knows what could happen when the air craft and ships are stepping over a line here. Two ships not identifying properly and whom we are into it.", "hunting accidently. A confrontation between two lighter planes at 35,000 feet or some body", "hunting accidently. A confrontation between two lighter planes at 35,000 feet or some body is a high level of intensity. There is a high level of can say where it is going to go but it is clear that there is every possibility that this thing somehow can say where it is going to go but it is clear that there is every possibility that this thing somehow can say where it is going to go but it is clear that there is every possibility that this thing somehow can say where it is going to go but it is clear that there is every", " possibility that this thing can be resolved short of war, short of a military action or confrontation whether or not this thing can be resolved short of war, short of a military action or", "military action or confrontation whether or not this thing can be resolved short of war, short of a military action or confrontation ask it. What is the thinking around Defense Secretary Cheney and the top person is the military ask it. What is the thinking around Defense Secretary Cheney and the top person

AUG-23-1990 11:47

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Border. Here is Chariayn Hunter-Gault's report from Turkey's Capitol City Ankara.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: When the current crisis erupted Turkey was one of the first country that U.S. Officials visited and Turkish President Turgot Ozal was quick to act. He shut down the Iraqi pipeline that traversed his country and joined the economic blockade. Turkey is not an Arab Country. It is a secular State with many of its elite identifying more with Europe than the Middle East. But most of Turkey's population is Moslem. Its ties to the Arab World date back to the era when the Ottoman Empire Extended as far as Saudi Arabia and included most of North Africa. Turkey's membership in NATO has led to a long standing cooperation between the United States including the use of bases mostly in the Southern Part of the Country. So far Turkey has not offered the bases to be used as staging posts for moves against Iraq. Nor has Turkey committed troops to a multi national force. Relations between the Presidents Bush and Ozal were said to have grown warmer and warmer during their frequent telephone communications during the current crisis. A development that may help ease tensions that have existed between the two countries over Turkey's dismal human rights record. Though torture for example is still officially sanctioned U.S. Officials say the record is improving. Earlier today I went to the Presidential Palace where I got an update from President Ozal on the current crisis. Mr. President thank you for joining us.

PRESIDENT OZAL: Thank you.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: How much closer to war do you think the situation is now?

PRESIDENT OZAL: I think, I have a feeling, there is tensions building up and especially the hostage crisis which is much bigger in numbers compared to the other hostage crisis. I think that it is not going to help for reaching peaceful situation. And I also told the same thing. Yesterday I called the Iraqi Ambassador and I said this is going to cause a war. Tell what I am going to tell you to Saddam.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Saddam Hussein.

PRESIDENT OZAL: Yes President Saddam Hussein. Let these people go.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: What should happen if Saddam Hussein does not respond to your entreaties and the entreaties of others to let the hostages go. What is going to happen and what should the United States do?

PRESIDENT OZAL: It is a very difficult time. It is very difficult to be in the place of President Bush. He has to make this decision. There are different many factors I can tell you and I say it is too difficult and I don't want to say what we can do but that is the reason I say we are probably more near to war than may be one or three or four days ago.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Is time an element in this. I mean does something have to happen soon either the U.S. acts soon or Saddam Hussein acts soon on the hostage issue or otherwise something else terrible?

PRESIDENT OZAL: Hostage issue is terrible. I mean it is not only 50 or 40 people they are talking about 10,000 almost British American and some other Westerners. And that is too many to handle. It is too difficult I say because too many people.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: To difficult to try a military rescue?

PRESIDENT OZAL: yes.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: But how else could you get them out?

PRESIDENT OZAL: I don't know.

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PRESIDENT OSA: I don't know.

M2. HUNTER-GAULT: But how else could you get them out?

PRESIDENT OSA: Yes.

M2. HUNTER-GAULT: To difficult to try a military reason?

PRESIDENT OSA: Hostage issue is terrible. I mean it is not only 50 or 40 people they are talking else territories.

M2. HUNTER-GAULT: Is time an element in this? I mean does something have to happen soon

more near to war than may be one or three or ten days ago.

too difficult and I don't want to say what we can do but that is the reason I say we are probably
bad. He has to make this decision. There are different many factors I can tell you and I say it is
PRESIDENT OSA: It is a very difficult time. It is very difficult to be in the place of President
United States do?

and the entreaties of others to let the hostess go. What is going to happen and what should the
M2. HUNTER-GAULT: What should happen if Saddam Hussein does not respond to some entreaties

PRESIDENT OSA: Yes President Saddam Hussein. Let these people go.

M2. HUNTER-GAULT: Saddam Hussein.

You to Iraq?

Saddam, I think, I have a feeling, these issues tension building up and especially the
PRESIDENT OSA: I think, I think, I have a feeling, these issues tension building up and especially the
hostage crisis which is much bigger in numbers compared to the other hostage crisis. I think that
PRESIDENT OSA: I think, I think, I have a feeling, these issues tension building up and especially the
hostage crisis which is much bigger in numbers compared to the other hostage crisis. I think that
Saddam, I think, I have a feeling, these issues tension building up and especially the
PRESIDENT OSA: I think, I think, I have a feeling, these issues tension building up and especially the
hostage crisis which is much bigger in numbers compared to the other hostage crisis. I think that
Saddam, I think, I have a feeling, these issues tension building up and especially the
United States do?

M2. HUNTER-GAULT: How much closer to what do you think the situation is now?

PRESIDENT OSA: Thank you.

an update from President Ozel on the current crisis. Mr. President (thank you) for joining us.
Officials say the record is improving. Earlier today I went to the Presidential Palace where I got
Turkey's dismal human rights record. Though torture for example is still officially sanctioned U.S.
crisis. A development that may help ease tensions that have existed between the two countries over
town walls and walls during their turbulent telephone communications during the entire
troops to a multi national force. Relations between the Presidents Bush and Ozel were said to have
offered the passes to be used as staging posts for moves against Iraq. Not has Turkey committed
including the use of bases mostly in the Southern part of the country. So far Turkey has not
Turkey's membership in NATO has led to a long standing cooperation between the United States
when the Ottoman Empire Extended as far as Saudi Arabia and included most of North Africa.
But most of Turkey's population is Moslem. Its rise to the Arab World date back to the era
Country. It is a secular State with many of its elite identifying more with Europe than the Middle
 pipeline that transferred his country and joined the economic blockade. Turkey is not an Arab
 U.S. Officials visited and Turkish President Turgut Ozel was quick to act. He shut down the Iraq
 border. Here is Charles Hunter-Gaault's report from Turkey's Capitol City Ankara.

Border. Here is Charles Hunter-Gault's report from Turkey's Capitol City Ankara.

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MS. HUNTER-GAULT: But if the United States did take military action or some kind of aggressive action to get the hostages out how would that be received in this part of the World.

PRESIDENT OZAL: I think generally speaking, I talked today in the BBC, that what Mr. Saddam Hussein is doing about the hostages calling them guests but doesn't let them go and they are not guests I said. If they are guests they go as they wish and this is against the Islamic tradition I said.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: So what are you saying?

PRESIDENT OZAL: If the United States were to make any move to bring those people out probably there will be no objection in our country.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Because Saddam is against Islamic tradition?

PRESIDENT OZAL: Yes.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: And the majority of people in this region are Islamic?

PRESIDENT OZAL: Yes.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Your Defense Minister said today that you were reconsidering your move, your refusal so far to deploy troops in the area. What is causing that reconsideration and what point would you decide to do it?

PRESIDENT OZAL: You see deploying troops outside of Turkey that means. In our constitution there is an article, it is not like the Japanese or German which their article says they can not send troops outside of the Country. But in our case the article says to use Turkish troops outside of Turkey we need the permission of the Parliament. Once we went to get permission the Parliament gave only the condition that If Turkey is attacked, Which is natural you can use the forces in that case.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Now there is a reconsideration and the Defense Minister said if it were considered to be in Turkey's best interest. What has changed to cause this revaluation?

PRESIDENT OZAL: In my opinion is the change if you wait to be attacked especially in this type of modern world especially the modern arms you are in trouble. Therefore you have to be ready before. At the same time it may be for Turkish interests to send some troops or some force outside of Turkey and we would like to have good relations with the rest of the Arab countries. Turkey is a bridge between East and West and therefore it may be and I believe it is in the interest of Turkey to help Arab countries. Take Saudi Arabia or some other countries in the Gulf If they request Turkey send some troops. May be it is in the interest of Turkey.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Right. And a request from the Arab world as opposed to the United States?

PRESIDENT TURGUT OZAL, Turkey: Yes, yes. Turkey may send without the request, but I believe that there are some kind of indication they may request.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: The Arab world?

PRESIDENT OZAL: Yes. I mean, Saudis or the Arabs.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Right. What do you make of the latest speech of Saddam Hussein and the Iraqi foreign minister in Amman the other day calling for talks, saying that everything is on the table? How do you read that?

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tablet How do you read that?

M2. HUNTER-GAULT: Right. What do you make of the latest speech of Sadegh Husseini and the Israeli foreign minister in Amman the other day calling for talks, saying that everything is on the

PRESIDENT OSAF: Yes. I mean, Sandis or the Arabas.

M2. HUNTER-GAULT: The Arab world?

PRESIDENT TURGUT OSAF: Turkey, yes. Yes. Turkey may send without the request, but I believe

M2. HUNTER-GAULT: Right. And a request from the Arab world As opposed to the United States? Turkey send some troops. May be it is in the interest of Turkey.

to help Arab countries. Take Saudi Arabia or some other country in the Gulf if they request a trade between East and West and therefore it may be and I believe it is in the interest of Turkey of Turkey and we would like to have good relations with the rest of the Arab countries. Turkey is before. At the same time it may be for Turkish interests to send some troops or some force outside of modern world especially the modern arms you are in trouble. Therefore you have to be ready.

PRESIDENT OSAF: In my opinion it is the change it you want to be attacked especially in this case considered to be in Turkey's best interest. What has changed to cause this situation?

M2. HUNTER-GAULT: Now there is a reconsolidation and the Defense Minister said it it was

case.

case only the condition that if Turkey is attacked, which is natural you can use the forces in that Turkey we need the manipulation of the Parliament. Once we want to get permission the Parliament troops outside of the Country. But in our case the article says to use Turkish troops outside of these it is an article, it is not like the Japanese or German which this article says they can not send.

PRESIDENT OSAF: You see debriefing troops outside of Turkey that means. In our constitution would you decide to do it?

You're refused to let to debrief troops in the area. What is causing that reconsolidation and what point would you decide to do it?

PRESIDENT OSAF: Yes.

M2. HUNTER-GAULT: And the majority of people in this region are Islamic?

PRESIDENT OSAF: Yes.

M2. HUNTER-GAULT: Because Sadegh is against Islamic tradition?

PRESIDENT OSAF: If the United States were to make any move to bring those people out properly

M2. HUNTER-GAULT: So what are you saying?

guests I said. If they are guests they do so they wish and this is against the Islamic tradition I said. Husseini is doing about the hostages cussing them guests but doesn't let them go and they are not

PRESIDENT OSAF: I think generally speaking, I talked today in the BBC, that what Mr. Sadegh action to get the hostages out how would that be received in this part of the World.

M2. HUNTER-GAULT: But if the United States did take military action or some kind of aggressive

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PRESIDENT OZAL: They are in trouble in a very, very difficult situation. That's very, very clear. Now there are indications for that. Take example of what they have given to Iranians. Iranians eight years war they made. They lost many people in order to get the half of the Shatal Arab changed in 1975, treaty, and they were successful they thought, and right now they have given everything they've got. Why? They must be in a very, very difficult situation.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: What do you think the chances of a political solution are?

PRESIDENT OZAL: It's very dim I believe. It's very dim. Only one possible political solution. First of all, they let all of those foreigners leave Iraq. They let, and tension may come down and then embargo will continue probably and after that if they go back from Kuwait, that's the only way of political solution.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Finally, Mr. President, do you think the Arab world, and this region, the Middle East, will ever be the same after this crisis?

PRESIDENT OZAL: That is the big problem, I'll tell you, I mean, today there is a problem in the Arab world, and the basis of this problem is the Arab-Israeli conflict, but now, after this crisis being solved one way or another, whatever it is I don't know, but when it is solved, don't think that problem will completely solve, there are other problems that will also come in this part of the world, because it is not only Arab-Israeli conflict now. There are problems among Arabs.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: That didn't exist before.

PRESIDENT OZAL: That did not exist much before, but it is now on the surface. Now what they say, rich Arab, poor Arab, or rich countries against those countries. I think it is a war time region and it is also lifeline of the industrialized countries and therefore we have to be very careful about the solution of the problems coming up, but I feel for the coming 10, 20 years, if this does not act for long-term view of the solution of the problems, if there's cause, mostly Europe, for short-term interest, than there will be much bigger problem than today.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Well, Mr. President, thank you.

PRESIDENT OZAL: You're welcome.

MR. LEHRER: Still to come on the Newshour tonight a conversation with Henry Kissinger.

## CONVERSATION

MR. MAC NEIL: Finally tonight another in a series of conversations on the crisis in the Persian Gulf. Tonight we hear from Henry Kissinger. He served as Sec. of State in both the Nixon and Ford administrations. Currently, he's a consultant and writer on international affairs.
Dr. Kissinger, thank you for joining us.

HENRY KISSINGER, Former Secretary of State: Glad to be here.

MR. MAC NEIL: Do you agree with the President of Turkey that we are, as a result particularly of the hostage situation, we are closer to war than we were three or four days ago?

DR. KISSINGER: I agree with the President of Turkey that we're in a very complicated situation and with every day that goes by without the issue being resolved, we slip closer to war, I agree with him in that respect.

MR. MAC NEIL: He also said he didn't, that the prospect for any political solution was dim, as he puts it, unless Saddam Hussein lets all the foreigners get out.

8

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but it, unless Sadeem Hussain lets all the foreigners get out.

MR. MACNEIL: He also said he didn't, that the prospect for any political solution was dim, as he

with him in that respect.

DR. KISSINGER: I agree with the President of Turkey that we're in a very complicated situation the postage situation, we are closest to war than we were three or four days ago?

MR. MACNEIL: Do you agree with the President of Turkey that we are, as a recent particularly of the postage situation, we are closest to war than we were three or four days ago?

HENRY KISSINGER, Former Secretary of State, glad to be here.

Administration. Currently, he's a consultant and writer on international affairs.

MR. MACNEIL: Finally, I'll say, I agree with Henry Kissinger. He said so. See, State in both the Nixon and Ford

CONVERSATION

MR. FEIHER: Still to come on the Newsington tonight a conversation with Henry Kissinger.

PRESIDENT OSAV: You're welcome.

M2. HUNTER-GAULT: Well, Mr. President, thank you.

interest, than there will be much bigger problems than today.

for long-term view of the solution of the problems, it there cause, mostly Europe, for short-term the solution of the problems coming up, but I feel for the coming 10, 20 years, if this does not act and it is also lifetime of the industrialized countries and therefore we have to be very careful about safety, lack of food, lack of arms, or rich countries against those countries. I think it is a very true religion.

M2. HUNTER-GAULT: That didn't exist before.

world, because it is not only Arab-Israeli conflict now. There are problems among Arabs, problems will completely solve, those are other problems that will also come in this part of the problem solved one way or another, whatsoever, if I don't know, but when it is solved, don't think that Arab world, and the rest of the problem is the Arab-Israeli conflict, but now, after this crisis PRESIDENT OSAV: That is the big problem, I'll tell you, I mean, today, there is a problem in the Middle East will ever be the same after this crisis?

M2. HUNTER-GAULT: Email: Mr. President, do you think the Arab world, and this region, the political solution?

PRESIDENT OSAV: It's very dim. I believe. It's very dim. Only one possible political solution. First that all they let all of those foreigners leave land. They let, and tension may come down and then PRESIDENT OSAV: It's very dim I believe. It's very dim. Only one possible political solution. First

M2. HUNTER-GAULT: What do you think the chances of a political solution are?

everything they've got. Why? They must be in a very very difficult situation.

changed in 1982, treaty, and they were successful they thought, and right now they have given eight years was they made. They lost many people in order to get the half of the Palestinian Arab Now there are indications for that. Take example of what they have given to Israel. Translators PRESIDENT OSAV: They are in trouble in a very very difficult situation. That's very, very clean-

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DR. KISSINGER: I would not put the whole issue on foreigners and on hostages. The fundamental issue is that the Iraqis must leave Kuwait and restore the government that they overthrew. That is what started the crisis. If they can take hostages and get themselves confirmed in possession of this territory before releasing the hostages, they have won, they have achieved their objective. Of course, they must let the hostages go, but we must not let ourselves be deflected against the key issue, which is the unprovoked aggression against a peaceful neighbor.

MR. MAC NEIL: Saddam Hussein's other neighbor, Jordan, King Hussein, said today, "We're almost facing the kind of crisis of a world gone mad." Does that fit the situation?

DR. KISSINGER: No, I think what has gone mad is his neighbor, Iraq, and if they haven't gone mad, they have a perfectly rational objective, which is to control the supply of oil from the Persian Gulf and to emerge as the unifying force in the Arab world against Western interests. It's from his point of view a perfectly rational objective. It's against the vital interest of the industrial democracies, and if he succeeds, it will certainly lead to a general war in the Middle East under worst circumstances.

MR. MAC NEIL: To the extent that any President in a complex situation like this can be in control of events, how much tonight is President Bush in control of the situation would you say?

DR. KISSINGER: I think President Bush has handled himself and has handled the situation with great fortitude and great subtlety. I believe that he has stated the American objectives clearly and they happen to be the objectives of most of the world. Saddam Hussein knows what he has to do. He has to leave Kuwait and permit the political evolution of Kuwait to follow its normal pattern. He has just, as the President of Turkey said, he has just left the territory he conquered in an equally unprovoked way. In Iran, he fought a war for eight years, killed about 200,000 of his own people in the process and now he has moved out of that territory so that he can face us. If he does the same vis-a-vis us, then I think potential war will rapidly dissipate.

MR. MAC NEIL: President Bush has been criticized -- that is the only criticism virtually -- the New York Times criticized him today for moving unilaterally to block Iraqi shipping without the United Nations. The President says the U.S. has all the authority it needs, but it may wait for some further U.N. action before proceeding further. What do you think about that state of affairs?

DR. KISSINGER: The greatest danger of the situation getting out of control as you asked before is that Saddam Hussein will get to believe that the United States will hesitate on the course in which it is. And then he will try to settle down to an enduring conflict. Then we will have several hundred thousand troops in Saudi Arabia. He will have his troops in Kuwait. Gradually pressures will build up for the light at the end of the tunnel, debate will start in this country, and certainly among our allies, and that is the greatest danger. I believe that if Saddam Hussein is convinced that there is a finite time to American patience that at some point the force that has been put into the Middle East will be used to achieve the objectives of the United Nations, and that we will demand the release of the hostages, there will be a peaceful resolution, if there's a lot of noise. I don't see what he has to gain actually going to war with the United States because this is not Vietnam, it is not a jungle. He does not have major supplies. He does not have a friendly country at his border. He has no means of replenishing his military machine, and there's no place to hide in Iraq, and all of the neighbors of Iraq are hostile to it. So any loss of his military capacity will weaken him too in his immediate neighborhood and frankly that's what all his neighbors want. This is what the President of Turkey was really hinting at, that there should be a general solution, which means weakening Iraq.

MR. MAC NEIL: I'm going to come back to that in a moment. I just want to ask you a question that arises out of all this. Others seem to be suggesting, some in this country, some overseas, that in the first crisis after the cold war the U.S. is the only country with the power to lead, but that it needs United Nations approval to legitimate the use of that power. What, philosophically is that true, and

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DR. KISSINGER: What the United States needs above all is to be perceived at the end of this crisis as having acted in the general interest. That is not necessarily what nations will say before every individual American action. And this is a very important test of the new world order that is emerging because strangely enough, under conditions of the cold war, Saddam Hussein might have calculated that he being more or less friendly to the Soviet Union would be opposed by the United States automatically. Now we may move him to a world, unless we handle this properly, where every local bully may think that he can attack his neighbors and is free of the constraints of a cold war. So we have an opportunity to establish the principle of a peaceful international order. I am convinced from what I know of even the Arab world that if this ends with the achievement of the U.N. objective and with Iraqi withdrawal from Kuwait and restoration of the government, we will have world opinion on our side.

MR. MAC NEIL: Whether we had the U.N. Good Housekeeping seal of approval before or after.

DR. KISSINGER: And conversely, if we fall, without having achieved these objectives, we will have lost a great deal of respect and prestige, and we will be moving into a very chaotic world.

MR. MAC NEIL: Now let's come back to your earlier point that Saddam Hussein needs to be convinced that the U.S. is prepared to act. The same New York Times editorial calls you at least by implication "a hasty hawk" today for suggesting that the U.S. may have to use force before American public patience wears thin. Explain your reasoning on that.

DR. KISSINGER: My reasoning isn't so much American public patience. My reasoning is that the presence of hundreds of thousands of foreign troops on Saudi soil is a massive intrusion in the government of a country that has led a more or less secluded life, that if a stalemate develops, that is, if the Iraqis stay in Kuwait and we sit there, that actually the friendly countries to us in the Arabian Peninsula will be painted by Iraqi propaganda as having invited foreigners into Arab territory. Terrorism may start, sabotage will start, and the question will be asked, where is the light at the end of the tunnel. It is not self-evident then that the blockade will be maintained if the price of oil keeps going up and the longer Iraq stays in occupation of Kuwait, the fundamental issue will be forgotten. Now I'm not saying we should act tomorrow morning, and I know the President has a very difficult decision to make. He has to balance the need of being perceived to have acted prudently against the dangers that I am describing, but there is a finite time, we had that point, he is in a better position to judge than I am, but if he goes beyond that point and we are pushed into a rear guard action, then I believe we will suffer a very serious setback and the course of peace globally will suffer a serious setback. So I'm not saying we should attack tomorrow morning, but I'm saying that Iraq must understand that we are beyond the point of no return, that if we do not achieve the U.N. objectives, then we will live in a very dangerous world.

MR. MAC NEIL: Conventional wisdom at the moment is that the presence of all those citizens there, whatever the state, however much hostages they are, should not run U.S. policy, everybody's been saying that, the President shouldn't be trapped the way President Carter was trapped, but, in fact, does their presence not do exactly what Saddam Hussein wants it to do and that is prevent any U.S. attack to force him out of Kuwait or to free the hostages?

DR. KISSINGER: My heart goes out to the President in this decision and it's relatively easy to sit here and talk about it without the responsibility that he faces. The fact is, however, that at any one point in time with tens of thousands of Americans around the world if any brutal, irresponsible government can seize several thousands of them in pursuit of its terrorist and aggressive designs, and it's then protected ironically by Americans. Then more American lives will be lost, because sooner or later this process will lead to an explosion that no group of American hostages can protect. I do not, in fact, believe that the Iraqis when push comes to shove will permit many American hostages to be killed because once that process starts, their situation will get worse and worse. And the American rage against them will get greater and greater the more Americans get killed. But it's easy for me to say this. I believe, however, that the best way to avoid hostages being taken in the

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future is to devalue the hostages that exist, and the more we focus on hostages, the more likely we make it. It started with 40 Iran. We are now at 10,000 in Iraq.

MR. MAC NEIL: Could you tell me -- we have just less than a minute -- could you tell me, do you see a situation arising where it becomes so important to, as you put it in an article over the weekend, surgically and progressively reduce his military assets militarily that that would become more important than risking some American civilian lives there?

DR. KISSINGER: I believe that, but I also believe that if Saddam Hussein remains convinced that this is the President's ultimate determination, if he remains convinced that there is a good probability of a peaceful solution no matter how much plaster we hit out of Baghdad now.

MR. MAC NEIL: Well, Dr. Kissinger, thank you very much for joining us.

DR. KISSINGER: Thank you for inviting me.

## NEWS SUMMARY

MR. LEHRER: In other news today, NASA lost radio contact with the Magellan spacecraft for the second time in five days. Engineers heard a brief signal from it this afternoon, raising hope that contact could be restored. The Magellan is orbiting Venus. Its mission is to take pictures of the planet so it can be mapped. The first pictures came in yesterday. They showed a landscape blanketed with craters and lava flows, as well as ridges and valleys. In South Africa, 69 more people were killed in violence between rival black tribes. It happened overnight in two black townships near Johannesburg. Police moved in after dawn. The death toll from the fighting during the past 10 days is up to 508.

## RECAP

MR. MAC NEIL: Once again today's developments in the Middle East crisis, President Bush activated military reservists to bolster U.S. forces in the Persian Gulf. Mr. Bush said the U.S. does not need additional U.N. approval to enforce the blockade against Iraq. Another Air Force carrier task force arrived in the area, bringing the U.S. armada to more than 30 ships. Iraq claimed two unidentified aircraft penetrated its air space from the direction of Saudi Arabia. The State Department rejected Iraq's order to close the U.S. embassy in Kuwait by Friday. Jordan said it was closing its borders to refugees from Kuwait and Iraq. And the President of Turkey told the Newshour tonight that the region is closer to war than ever. Good night, Jim.

MR. LEHRER: Good night, Robin. We'll see you tomorrow night with among other things a conversation with Defense Expert Edward Luttwak. I'm Jim Lehrer. Thank you and good night.

11

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["SL-9", "YTD19TE HS100 C.35 and", "11", "conversation with Defense Expert Edward Littwesk, I'm Jim Leibert. Thank you and good night.", "Good night, Jim.", "Newborn thought that the region is closer to war than ever.", "Department selected Iraq's order to close the U.S. embassy in Kuwait by Friday. Jordan said it was unidentified aircraft penetrated its air base from the direction of Sandal Atabia. The State task force arrived in the area, bringing the U.S. army to more than 30 ships. Iraq claimed two not need additional U.N. approval to enforce the blockage against Iraq. Another Air Force carrier activated military reservists to bolster U.S. forces in the Persian Gulf. Mr. Bush said the U.S. does MR. MAC NEIL: Once again today's developments in the Middle East exist, President Bush", "RECAP", "is up to 508. Johannesburg, Police moved in after dawn. The death toll from the fighting during the past 10 days were killed in violence between rival black tribes. It happened overnight in two black townships near diamonded with cranes and law clones, as well as ridges and valleys. In South Africa, 66 more people dead than in yesterday. It happened overnight in two black townships near diamonded with cranes and law clones, as well as