1st draft
slightly abridged
edited for clarity

BORIS KAUFMAN: SHOOTING VIGO'S FILMS

Interview by Donald Crafton, January 1978

Q: One reference book says that you were born in Biatystok, Poland in 1906. Is that right?

A: It was Russia at that time, but it's Poland now.

Q: There seems to be some confusion about your relationship to Dziga Vertov.

You were the youngest of the three Kaufman brothers and Vertov was the oldest?

A: Yes, that's right.

Q: What was your involvement with Vertov's Kino-Glass movement after it was founded around 1919? Were you active in that?

A: You see, I was young, only around nine or ten, when we left Russia and went back to this part of Russia that is now Poland. Then we moved to Paris. This stay in this town was only a transition period. Kino-Glass was just about to start. My earliest memory of my brother Dziga Vertov and myself was while we were still in Poland and he was just starting to

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become fascinated with cinematography. He took me twice to the Institute... I forget the name of it. We had some screenings there and he showed me what could be done by this miraculous means. I still remember the time-lapse photography with plants growing out of the soil into full growth, and especially flowers opening before your eyes, in slow motion. That is how early I was already aware of his early camera work. We maintained contact by mail but, not surprisingly, not too often. When I was in Paris I was able to see his latest work, some of the Kino-Glass and Kino-Pravda and then later *A Sixth Part of the World* [1926] and *Man with a Movie Camera* [1929].

Q: While you were in Paris, at the Sorbonne, you met Jean Vigo.

A: Yes, that's a big jump. First, how he came into my life. I had already made two pictures. The first was with Jean Lods who was a youngFilipin cinematographer. It was *Twenty-four hours in Twenty Minutes* [1928] which was nothing but a day in the life of a big city.

Q: I haven't seen it but it sounds like one of the "city symphonies" that were popular in the 'twenties.

A: You're right. It was very much poetry with the camera and it made sense in Russia. *Time* was the only discipline working and it was the same temperament they were used to. We were lucky. We showed it to the owner of the Vieux-Colombier [Jean Tedesco], which was an avant-garde theater for the cinema, and afterwards he told us that he wanted to add it to his program. To our astonishment, it was held six months. And then celebrities we were, and most of the critics thought it was good work.

Q: Then you made *La Marche des Machines* [1928] with Eugène Deslaw?

A: Yes, but I disowned it. I did most of the work on the film. Deslaw was often not even present during the shooting. But the editing was so disappointing that I had my name removed from it.

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Q: Were you disappointed because the footage was cut down, or because of its organization?

A: The original material had a rhythm of its own that was destroyed by Deslaw's editing. I still remember images of parallel railroad tracks moving. I shot from the last car of the train. And turning gears.... To come back to Jean Vigo. He lived in Nice for reasons of his and his wife's health. One day he called me when he was visiting Paris and asked me if I could show him some of his work. So I showed him and he liked it and asked me to come to Nice. He felt he wanted to conquer that extraordinary city with a vengeance. It's a beautiful city, Nice, but it's also a focal point for the wealthy people of Europe. He wanted to film it and he wanted me to be there with him. So I spent some time there. We walked a lot and talked a lot and from this evolved the different conclusions.

Q: Apparently the original idea for *A Propos de Nice* underwent many changes, starting as a very broad treatment with a lot of shots of the ocean and, as it was filmed, / more of an improvisation. Is that right?

A: It wasn't that much pre-planned. The structure of the film evolved mainly from the shooting itself. We would often improvise and would sometimes let ourselves be surprised by the screen when the rushes came to us. The ideas continually developed. It was very much improvised. Let me give you an example. The focal point of Nice is of course the Promenade des Anglais where you can be pushed along to take tea. When I used the chair for invalids--the wheelchair--to hold the movie camera as Jean was pushing me while I was shooting the cracks in the ground, they were talking about Russia. It was very amusing in 1929.

Q: Here's your picture on the 1929 invitation to the screening.

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A: Yes, this is me at the camera and this is Jean. This is the Debrie
which we always used with a tripod, but I also had a camera of my own,
a hand-held camera. A German camera.

Q: An Ernemann or something like that?

A: Yes. So we were able to make a continuous traveling shot and we got
certain faces or attitudes or positions that were characteristic.

Q: I've read that sometimes you hid the camera inside a box. Is that true?

A: Yes. It was because in life people tend to be unnatural when they
know they're being photographed. I didn't use a box, but I concealed it
in something.

Q: After the opening shot of fireworks, there is this aerial shot of Nice
which dissolves into the cracks on the Promenade des Anglais. Did you
take this aerial footage?

A: I think I did, but I can't be sure.

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A: You see, all this--and very few understand--is why we started to introduce Nice with the camera down horizontally, then setting itself up.

[He demonstrates tilting a camera 45°] It is because in Nice the preparation for the season is also the preparation for the Carnival and other important events, economically speaking.

Q: Here's one of the workers putting an umbrella into one of the tables.

A: Yes, this is part of the preparation. They even wash the palm trees. And all this had a municipal overtone.

Q: Now I understand the significance of the shots of the palm trees.

A: Yes.

Q: Was it intentional that the shape of the palms is like the shape of the chimneys at the end of the film? In both the camera is held very close to the base and pointed up.

A: All this is related to Nice as an entity.

Q: Then comes the long sequence showing the people on the beach, and they're caught in funny positions. It must have been shot from a hotel.

A: Yes, it's from the balcony facing the beach.

Q: Then, on the Promenade, there are these people who are obviously not part of the rich society, a gypsy with her baby, for example.

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Q: Here's the famous speeded-up funeral.

A: Oh, yes. That was my idea. In fact, it's very much speeded up. The idea was that this was an unsightly and undesirable event in a place meant for enjoyment and sunshine. So actually what happened was that while in Monte Carlo I saw this funeral. It was being expedited so fast that I had the impression that dying itself was undesirable. And this is why it was appropriate for our setting. It was completely justifiable. It wasn't a trick without background. It was believable.

Q: Many shots are interesting because objects suddenly loom very large on the screen. Apparently you used a wide angle lens. In the game of *boules*, or *pétanque*, for example, the ball rolls right into the lens.

A: Well, this is a very common game.

Q: And when a street cleaner picks up the *ordure* left by a rich woman's dog, the camera follows his hand right into the garbage can.

A: Well, once more this is a small social vignette.

Q: But there seems to be some significance to these extreme close-ups because they are associated with the lower class, or working class, aspects of Nice. On the other hand, the rich people are often seen from above or at a distance. Is that an intentional effect?

A: I don't think it's accidental. But on the other hand, it might not have

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been premeditated because, as I told you, many inspirations were dictated
by what we actually found. We didn't set up anything, you know. We
took the life as it was. One of the most amazing things to us was the
cemetery of Nice which was in a very rococo style. It permitted us to
film the statuary, which was very expressive. In the case of where a
child was buried, there was a statue of a mother tearing her hair and
breasts. And we actually found a way using parallel montage to relate
the people on the Promenade des Anglais with the statuary in the cemetery.

Q: It works well.

A: Certainly, it works well. It is not at all for a cheap effect. It's
very tasteful. This is why we did it.

Q: One thing I've noticed is that you seem to like to follow people very closely with camera, especially on the Promenade. In fact, even in Lumet's *The Group*, which you shot in 1965, there's a shot in which you carry the camera behind one of the actresses as she's being beaten by her husband. This reminded me of *A Propos de Nice*!

A: It's possible that that was my fault because when I shot my first
pictures in this country I remembered the films I had done when I was
young. An example: When I was shooting *L'Atalante* in Paris, Dita Parlo
runs through a section near the canals in a certain part of Paris.
When I was about to shoot *On the Waterfront* [1954] it reminded me of the
waterfront and canals of *L'Atalante*. Of course it was different, with
the barge locks, but I wanted to get the same feeling of the neighborhood.
It is just that I reacted in a similar way to this similar thing I had
filmed in the past.

Q: Let's turn to the shots showing the papier-mâché masks.

A: This is just preparation for the carnival.

Q: All through the film we have these frozen human forms--like statues and

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A: This is also like pétanque, a southern French game. They try to guess how many fingers the other player will show. A gambling game.

Q: Then it's a parallel to casino life?

A: Yes. Yes.

Q: When we see the women doing wash in a public basin, the sunlight is striking the water and, again, the camera is very close to the manual activity.

A: Yes, I often did that.

Q: Then we go inside the hotel.

A: This is inside the hotel. We crashed it. We couldn't get permission, so we decided to take only my little hand-held camera, which was no bigger than this... [gestures about the size of a shoebox] and get it. The whole scene cost us the price of a drink. We filmed it. And had fun.

Q: It's shot from a very low angle. Were you holding it down trying to conceal it and cranking from the hip?

A: Yes.

Q: Then there's a rack focus and a cut to the women dancing. Were they on a float?

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A: Yes, they were on a float. The strange thing is that this aspect of the carnival, the *bataille des fleurs*, lasts for such a long time that it seems endless. And it comes to a kind of paroxysm. We didn't know how to show that scene in any other way except by shooting in slow motion. It simply stretches its time duration.

Q: It reminds me, in its slow motion and very low angle, of the shot of the ballerina in René Clair's *Entr'acte*.

A: Yes.

Q: Then there's this woman. [Kaufman laughs.] She reappears several times.
Was she a friend?

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A: No, we never met her before. But of course, she's so colorful that we used her. We found so many parallels. We shot her on the Promenade des Anglais and also around there we found a kind of a zoo where we shot some animals.

Q: There was an ostrich, and some alligators.

A: Yes, the alligators, when a tourist gradually burns himself dark. Again, this is reminiscent of the photographs of the cemetery. The movement of the ostrich's head was so similar that we cut it in. These visual associations paid off when they were juxtaposed.

Q: That's very much the Soviet principle of editing--combining images to produce a meaningful whole.

A: Yes, that's right. This is an aspect of filmmaking that has been too much neglected. It has an immediate impact and a meaning--as long as it is not abused. That is something.

Q: Did Vigo meet Dziga Vertov?

A: No. He was not in Paris at the same time.

Q: Here's a puzzling image. During the battle of flowers we suddenly cut to these women picking flowers.

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A: Yes, because in the *bataille des fleurs* they use thousands, hundreds of thousands of freshly cut flowers and this means that in the neighborhood of Nice you have the great perfume factories and these are the poor women cutting flowers for either the perfumes or for the *bataille des fleurs*. It's a big industry. This is to show that besides the tourists, the carnival, the *bataille des fleurs* and other enjoyments, there is another Nice, another life just behind the other. Also the *flics* and the battleships. They co-exist and this is what we wanted to show.

...Just like this old woman.

Janine was her name. An old friend of Vigo and one of his father's contemporaries.

Q: This is a complicated scene. At first it appears she's looking at the dancing girls, then at the smoke stacks. Then there's a jump cut to a mask and you feel she's been decapitated.

A: The meaning of this is that all this paroxysm of enjoyment will have to someday face reality. And it just might be abruptly finished by a change in the social structure of the society. And this is why she gets so menacing suddenly, facing the stacks and the revolutionary symbols.

Q: Because the camera has been so distant from the rich people all through

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the film, it almost appears as though this woman is being crushed by
the phallic smokestacks.

A: Yes. I don't think they're phallic. I just think they're very menacing.

The element that they can crush everything including everything seen previously in the picture. This is a preconception of the things to come. It's very menacing.

Q: Well, how was Vigo to work with? Let's say that in planning a scene like this, did he like to look through the camera or did he tell you to shoot it as you thought best?

A: He left me full freedom. He didn't ask often to look through the camera, no. It was a full collaboration. We helped each other, but in the sense that we didn't have any preconceptions for difficulties in the filming operation. It was a cross-fusion of reference and this is what we wanted.

Q: When you edited, was this also an active collaboration?

A: This is the one picture in which we did the preparatory work, the shooting and the editing together. A total collaboration.

Q: Vigo couldn't have had much practical film experience by this time--1929.

A: He was an assistant director earlier for a short period, but he was already

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a mature director when I knew him. It came naturally to him. He was
absolutely incredible.

Q: In May 1930, Vigo took the film to the Vieux-Colombier. Were you at the premiere?

A: Yes. Vigo stepped up to introduce the film and it had just happened that the day before we had been invited to the presentation of Luis Buñuel's film, *Un Chien andalou*. Vigo was very much impressed by it. So when he got up to present *A Propos de Nice* he was so happy about *Un Chien andalou* that he forgot about his own film. [Laugs.]

Q: He liked the films of the avant-garde?

A: Oh, yes.

Q: Did he attend many of them?

A: Out of Paris you can't be kept abreast very much. This is why he moved from Nice to Paris.

Q: According to one source, when *A Propos de Nice* was submitted to the censors in 1930, it was 800 meters, which is about 2,600 feet. That's quite a bit longer than the film we have now.

A: I wasn't aware of it. I must admit that since Paris I haven't seen *A Propos de Nice* again. I don't remember lengths. I think it was three or four reels.

Q: Was there a lot of material that you didn't use?

A: Very little. It wasn't even two-to-one. And for the reason that we didn't have enough money to waste film. We didn't even rent a car, but I was quite a motorcycle rider. The camera was light so sometimes we would ride to the locations together on the motorcycle.

Q: Next came *Taris*. Were you the cinematographer for that film?

A: I couldn't do it because I was doing something else. The only thing I was responsible for was some ideas how to... and recommending a colleague of mine [Lafont]. It was the only Vigo film that I didn't work on.

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Q: Apparently Vigo never liked the film too much.

A: This I couldn't tell.

Q: There must have been something about it that didn't please him.

A: In _Taris_ he didn't have full authority. It's not like him. As in _A Propos de Nice_, he liked to do everything from beginning to end. Like the conception of _Zero for Conduct_. It was enormous. It was an exploration of part of his personal life, but he didn't talk about it. He was quiet. He would just set up the shots and say, "Boris, shoot." But I knew Jean's life and I would recognize certain actions. And the way he handled professional actors....

Q: Louis Berger as well as you appears on the credits as cameraman.

A: He was my assistant. A very good assistant. He eventually became a first cameraman. I haven't seen him since.

Q: You've said that Vigo worked hastily on the idea. It was originally "Les Cancrees?"

A: Yes, you know what it means?

Q: The Dunces?

A: Yes, but it has a vulgar connotation.

Q: The film begins with the boys on a train.

A: The boys are coming coming back from vacation. Back to school. The interplay is actually a competition. They manage to go on doing what they were doing on vacation.

Q: Was it shot on a real train or on a set?

A: On a moving train.

Q: I remember a lot of smoke and steam.

A: I added some smoke.

Q: It seems that both of you enjoyed having the image obscured like that--

as in the pillowfight, with all the feathers floating around.

A: The feathers have a different meaning. With the revolt of the children and the feathers flying in the air it is more of an anarchical attempt to create a sustained mood in the shooting.

Q: Before that, one is impressed by the number of high angle shots in the dormitory.

A: This was the set of the dormitory with the silent _personnage_ passing by.

He is an ever-present authority, even at night. He's usually ignored by the children. He's even in the classroom and doesn't create any reaction. Everyone knows that he will denounce them and they'll have to stay in Sundays for their actions. For example, when they are called to the sleeping cabin of the teacher who is responsible for the class and one of them has cramps. He doesn't get an answer when he asks to go to the bathroom and finally the little one, at the risk of punishment, asks the teacher to let him go.

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about the principal was that, being a professional actor, he was acting
like a professional. And hamming it up. But I never saw anyone get
what they wanted as Vigo did with only a few words. Not angry words, but
rather firm--yet mild. It was a question of throwing out every hamming
trick an actor had learned, and that was it.

Q: It sounds like Vigo was definitely in control at all times on the set.

A: Oh, yes.

Q: Here's the "crucifixion."

A: Here the slow motion was my idea. I think it was very effective. It gave the motion of a dream.

Q: *Zero for Conduct* was one of the earliest sound films. Was the original sound as bad as it is on modern prints?

A: It was lousy. I personally think that Vigo didn't have enough experience or the freedom to choose his own people.

Q: Because of working with Gaumont?

A: Exactly. He was sent as boom man and mixer two of the worst examples of steady-employed bureaucrats [Royné and Bocquel]. They were incapable of doing what was normally expected of them. It was a disgrace.

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Q: In order to counteract the poor sound quality, did you have the children repeat their lines two or three times?

A: No. I think that in the beginning Vigo wasn't aware that the sound was going to be that bad, otherwise he would have put in for a different man.

Q: *Zero for Conduct* is Vigo's most autobiographical film. The character of Tabard especially is so similar to what we know about Vigo's personal life. Was it understood at the time that the film was being made that this was the origin of the story?

A: It was obvious to me because I knew his background and when he first started talking about it I knew then it was an autobiographical film. He was fully aware of what he was doing and wrote the script with his experiences in mind.

Q: Was he really obsessed with the memory of his father, the anarchist Almereyda? Someone has written that.

A: I don't think it was an obsession, but it was very... His relations with his mother were very cool and he once said to me that this was so. Eventually this will show. His sense of belonging was always related to his father and to his father's friends. He was convinced that Almereyda was killed in prison. In fact, I have an opinion too; it sounded very convincing. It was not only his conviction that he was killed, but many of his contemporaries too. But he wasn't an embittered man, so I wouldn't call it an obsession.

Q: Was he satisfied with *Zero for Conduct* when it was completed?

A: I remember the preview. The reaction was mixed. There was some applauding and some whistling--in France it was like booing. Some reacted bitterly to its visual quality. At the time film wasn't as sensitive as it is now and I insisted on, and took the responsibility for, going way beyond the film speed and making the dormitory at night really *dark*. Underexposing. I made it an effort to see it. And to the general public it was apparently

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crucial to be able to see, so some of the whistling was addressed to
me I suppose. But I wouldn't do it otherwise.

Q: Did reactions like that upset him?

A: I don't think he was upset, although he had a reason to be. In addition to what happened to the film, it was censured by the Education Office. It was decreed that it could only be shown in clubs, not in public. And even this he took with a grain of salt. But his personality was such that the same producer, even after this film was a fiasco, decided to give him the full length feature. I give him [Jacques-Louis Nounetz] a lot of credit for it. Not many money-men would have reacted in the same way.

Q: Exactly why was the film censured?

A: I think simply they didn't like the idea of revolt. Especially when it involved high school children. They didn't like the revolt against society.

Q: Just out of curiosity, did you see Lindsay Anderson's film *If...*?

A: Yes.

Q: What did you think of it?

A: It was nice [shrugs shoulders and smiles].

Q: *Mädchen in Uniform* had just opened in Paris before filming began. It also takes place in a dormitory. Had you seen it?

A: First of all, I hadn't seen it then, not until much later. It has absolutely nothing in common--either in conception or in treatment. It's a nice film but much more romantic, much less biting.

Q: Next, we have the stills from *L'Atalante*.

A: Did you make these from the film?

Q: From a 16mm copy; not a very good one.

A: This is why I was asking. Now I refuse to go see Vigo's films because the prints are too horrible. To me it's too painful. I can't do it.

Q: The wedding procession that begins the film is a bit reminiscent of the funeral in *Entr'acte*. Was that the inspiration?

A: It might have been.

Q: Did Vigo ever meet Clair personally?

A: I don't know, but it's possible.

Q: Here are Jean and Juliette appearing over the horizon--a beautiful shot. Even in this print you can see that there is just the right tone of gray to make his black suit and her white dress contrast.

A: Yes, I wish you could see the original print. It was pure poetry.

Q: Then there's this incredible shot of her walking on the barge as it goes past the camera, shot from the shore. How did you get that dark tone and yet still keep her white wedding gown?

A: Actually, the whole sequence was shot in one late afternoon during the gathering dusk. It was just like that. When the dusk gets dark enough it's almost a night shot, yet it has the specific value for this time of day. For the sheathing in white, I think I used some artificial light. We must have shot this before we embarked on the barge because we moved

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A: Oh, no. It wasn't faked. No, it was realism.

Q: When Jean forcibly grabs Juliette and they fall down, a cat jumps up and scratches his face. I know that in the original scenario there were no cats on board, only a dog. How did that change take place?

A: Actually, Vigo wanted to see how Dita Parlo could withstand the strangeness of the place and this episode with the cat jumping onto Jean Dasté was to have her appear both intrigued and frightened. Let me tell you how strange it was. We had a nice place for shooting this delicious thing. We were surrounded by complete blackness during this scene. I was on the upper deck running parallel and somehow I stepped over and vanished. I could have gone into the water, but I was lucky and I hit the deck. It was about ten feet high and I probably passed out for about ten seconds. But even at that small distance, nobody knew about me falling or disappearing for a while, even though I had fallen ten feet onto the steel deck and was a little stunned. The whole thing was very strange and this surprise made it an even stranger place.

Q: Did you actually live on the barge?

A: Sure, we spent a lot of time on the barge, but it wasn't that serious.

Q: Here Juliette is telling Jean that he can see his true love underwater.

The composition of the shot, especially with those reflections of trees, could almost come from Impressionist painting.

A: was

This/actually the landscape surrounding the river, and these reflections were really there. It adds to the film's richness and coloring. Also it was quite chilly. I remember that Dasté had to jump into the water and it was covered with ice. Thin ice. So it was quite cold, but he did it.

Q: That testifies to the camaraderie on the set, doesn't it; that someone would do that without hesitation?

A: Without hesitation.

Q: Were the barge interiors a set?

A: Some shots were made on the / and some in the studio. There was no compromise in making a full scale mock-up for the film.

Q: Whose idea was it to pack it full of all those objects, all this clutter?

The set designer's?

A: No, the set designer wouldn't do that. It was Jean's. He wanted to make Jules' past credible, but not 100% credible. Otherwise Père Jules could have

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invented his past or tried to invent it, but he just didn't reach it.
This exotic is to make him more exciting. So this dual reality about
Jules' personality is a Vigo creation.

Q: One of the articles Jules shows to Juliette is a picture of his girl "Dorothy" taken in San Francisco in 1903...

A: What he is trying to do is impress Juliette, because he's not beyond trying to seduce her. He obviously sees her as a girl who would be impressed with his past.

Q: The visual ambiance of the cabin is astounding. When she picks up a fan and spreads it across the screen it creates a very Art Deco pattern of lines. Also this scene is a three or four minute continuous take.

A: Yes, it is. And a 360° pan shot following the actors and introducing the action and the set at the same time. And making a continuous shot. I remember that then I couldn't have any lights on the floor. I did a similar shot on *Long Day's Journey into Night* [1962] and it was much easier than that time.

Q: For one thing, you must have had a lot more help.

A: A lot more help and a lot better equipment.

Q: When Jules cuts himself with his knife, did he actually cut his hand?

A: Yes, it's a real knife.

Q: And the great thing is her expression; she's both shocked and excited.

A: That's what he's trying to do!

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Q: You move in with the camera just as she sticks her tongue out a little.
Were you hand-holding during this scene?

A: It was a combination of tripod and wheels.

Q: Where did the famous hands in a jar that surprise her come from?

A: Somebody had them. They're kept in alcohol. They look nice!

Q: After Père Jules has miraculously fixed the Victrola, we see all the cats sitting around it apparently listening to the music. How did you set that up?

A: They just surrounded the Victrola and one of them actually got in it.
And they remained there [laughs].

Q: Then, when Jean is in his depression, there is this little procession on the deck with the boy carrying the Victrola. It's a magical scene.

A: I agree, yes. What they are trying to do is to bring Jean out of his temper. He was deprived of all his senses and they are trying to shock him out of it. They thought fixing the Victrola would do it.

Q: Did you yourself work with Maurice Jaubert on the music?

A: It was done more with Vigo, but I loved Jaubert and his music. I still think he's the best musician. In all his pictures I've seen, the music

is organic with the action. He was killed at the beginning of the war.

Q: When Jean goes underwater to see Juliette, where was that filmed?

A: It was filmed in a pool with glass sidewalls.

Q: Was it the same pool in which *Taris* was filmed?

A: I think so.

Q: The super of Juliette floating in her wedding gown must have been filmed on a stage.

A: Yes, it was filmed in slow motion, then superimposed.

Q: This is getting near the end of the picture now. We have a parallel montage of their lives apart, beginning with this guy who snatches Juliette's purse.

A: Now this is very interesting. It was shot in the late afternoon and on into the night. It was not very well lighted. We shot a lot of it through a grille. After the purse is snatched the thief is caught and this murderous mob pursuing him is just as dangerous.

Q: It reinforces the hostility of the big city for Juliette.

A: That's why we shot it through the grille with fast parallel motion to increase the violence of the shot.

Q: The sequence in which he's going to bed on the barge and she's going to bed in Paris is one of the most exciting in the picture.

A: It's their sensual desires.

Q: As we get closer and closer to them, these spots appear. It looks like gauze.

A: I don't know why I used it. I can't remember. Something had to be found to increase the sensuality of their initial desire and this was maybe a poor means of doing it, but I didn't have anything else to use to create this... It's almost like being sick.

Q: Like fever spots?

A: That's right.

Q: Then we see the same spots on her and it really gets quite explicit

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for a film made in 1934.

A: You think too explicit?

Q: No, just explicit enough.... And the rhythm of the editing contributes to the feeling as well.

A: Actually it was an effort on my part to convey the idea that in spite of their physical separation, they are almost together.

Q: From this point on, the movie comes very quickly to its end. Was that planned, or were they just running out of production money?

A: No, it was not done for economy. It was because that was the tempo of the scene and there wasn't anything more to say.

Q: Jules finds Juliette in a music store when he is attracted by the same music. In fact, this kindred feeling between Jules and Juliette is all through the film. Sometimes they seem closer than Juliette and Jean.

A: It's a simple type of relationship. Jean's love and Jules' exotic impression resemble each other. Jean created all these characters in two days and two nights. I know, because I was there. And they seem so full and natural. It's incredible. I remember the producer Nounez had brought him a résumé of two pages. Jean wasn't enthusiastic about it but he sat down and created all the personnages. This résumé was only a

rather banal story between a small village girl and the captain of
the barge.

Q: What seems really incredible is that, when the film was made, this spontaneity was not lost. He didn't lose touch with the creativity of the actors.

A: Simon was naturally extraordinary. Probably the best person there.

He already had a brilliant theatrical career behind him and Jean was
just beginning. He had full confidence in him, in his directing.

Q: At the end Jean and Juliette embrace...

A: ...and they fall down. This is a semi-comical spot. Even this wasn't
as planned.

Q: Yet it works perfectly with the beginning where they fall down on the deck.

A: Yes, right.

Q: And then the aerial shot of the barge.

A: It was like this. We came down, flew over, and up again. To simply
get away from it all and yet keep this part of the humor and get more
objective and less subjective by the end. I was working on this last
sequence while Vigo was dying. This is what happened. I... We hired a
plane and asked the pilot to gradually come down when he saw our barge in

4/2

the river. And this was a good portion of the costs, but I wanted to
get Simon and the boy on the barge, then gradually go up and get both
sides of the river in the shot. Well, the pilot managed to get the first
part and to get up to and fly over it and I was still looking through
my camera, but not getting both sides of the river. I was simply getting
higher. So I looked up and saw my assistant--pale. I looked over and
saw the pilot making signs. What was happening was that the plane hadn't
been properly maintained and the oil pressure was down to zero, which
meant that we had to land. There was no other choice. Fortunately the
forests on both sides were gone by this time and we landed right in a
potato field, into wet earth. His wheels got buried and the tail came off.

Q: It must have been terrifying! Were you leaning out the window making the shot?

A: No. There was a trap door in the bottom so I was shooting straight down. We got help from the farmer who owned the field, then got in touch with Paris and they sent us some other transportation. Vigo wanted to know how the shots came out and I told him that I was sure of the first part, but we never got up for the second. He managed to laugh.... He was very ill, but he didn't expect to die.

Q: Was his death sudden and unexpected then?

A: It wasn't predictable, but the doctors didn't attempt to do anything about it. Septicaemia is no longer a problem.

Q: It sounds as though, for the scene with the barge, Vigo had a definite idea of how he wanted the image to look on the screen.

A: In general he didn't tell me how to shoot. I never had a feeling of any resistance when I was setting up the camera. Maybe because we trusted each other so much.