TELCONE

Tom Korologos/Kissinger

9:05 p.m. - 9/11/73

T: ...the fact that Richardson produced...

K: What are you saying?

T: I was asking how do you feel you did?

K: I think I did pretty well.

T: I got a report from Marcy and he says that he thinks they are satisfied. He thinks the fact that Richardson produced the summary and it wasn't the horrible thing that they had anticipated. It was a very sterile thing to satisfy them. Then I talked to Sparkman to get his reaction and he said, oh, I think it's fine. They're probably going to hold an executive session on Thursday to report back to the committee on what they found and then have the other meeting Friday. Now, and I say this carefully as we've gone that road before with case. They seem to be satisfied and they seem to be o.k. and I asked Carl what he was going to write and he said, well I haven't gotten down, sat down long enough to write it yet. But they seem to be pretty......

K: He might let me see it.

T: Pardon?

K: He told me he might let me see it.

T: Let you see the report, huh?

K: Yeah.

T: Did he ask questions?

K: Carl? Yeah. But he seemed to be... you know, he may be the worst snake around but he seemed to be trying to be helpful with his questions.

T: Did they say anything to you about going back up there Thursday?

K: Not I.

T: Just the report, huh?

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E.O. 1295.8

By: NAR. Dae 6/1/64

-2-

K: They said any questions they might ask they could clean up.

T: Well, I think we're o.k. Sparkman is certainly o.k., and I hope Case is satisfied and I assume there will be some questions asked of you on Monday when you go to executive session on the thing. But I wanted you to get their impression, too; I didn't know if you got only Richardson's or......

K: I got Richardson's and Ruckelshaus's.

T: Well, both Sparkman and Marcy seemed pleased and I of course haven't talked to Case, nor will I.

K: Well, I appreciate it.

T: Alright, sir.

K: And I appreciate, really Tom, everything you've done.

T: Well, we try.

K: No, no, you've been terrific, really.

T: It's a hard course and yours is a difficult one because of the experience you've had. It's easier to get some burn off the street than a guy like you.

K: Well, actually it is a little tougher when you have a record, because they can ask you about it.

T: That's right. That's exactly right.

K: I think most other people could have said I'll answer this after I've studied it.

T: Yeah. Well, the thing to be remembered it was you they confirmed it wasn't me, it wasn't Harlow, it wasn't Nixon.

K: (laughter) I think you could get confirmed.

T: See you tomorrow.

K: Alright. Many thanks.

T: O.K. Bye.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority: E.O. 12158
BY order of the President, DOD 6/10/84

Telcon
Deputy Secy Rush/HAK

September 12, 1973; 9:17 a.m.

K: Hello, how are you?

R: I think things are going very well, aren't they?

K: I think they are -- practically assured.

R: I think so too.

K: I mean their staff is already beginning to talk to my staff on how to cooperate after the confirmation.

R: Good.

K: Let me check just one thing with you. I saw the reporting cable on your conversation with Von Staden and I thought that was exactly right.

R: I'm glad to hear that.

K: This is exactly the strategy we ought to pursue. There was one of a conversation of Springsteen's with, I think, the Dane -- or with some European, maybe the Belgian, which I think went too far. He said Copenhagen could be a watershed. You see, our point is if we have a way out we would just as soon not go to Europe this fall. I mean this is just for your guidance. We want to disabuse the Europeans of the view that they're doing a favor, which is still coming through in the television reports. And therefore we don't want to make any comment on the declaration. We just want to say we're going to study it.

R: Right.

K: Just say it will take us awhile to study it. And, secondly, we still take violent objection to this procedure where they send Anderson to talk to me. And I'm going to insist on meeting with all of them together.

R: Exactly.

K: Or separately. But I will not accept him as a negotiator on anything except procedures.

R: You're absolutely right, Henry.

K: Because if we give in on that -- don't you agree?

DECLASSIFIED

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E.C.2158

-2-

R: I agree one hundred percent. As a matter of fact, I told the Danish Ambassador this, you know. I don't know whether you saw that cable or not.

K: I didn't.

R: But I told him the same thing I told Von Staden, that we were not going to tolerate having a bloc talking to us through a Chairman.

K: And a chairman who has no authority to negotiate and a bloc which won't talk to us while they're formulating their position.

R: Exactly. Exactly.

K: We can talk to the Soviets while they're formulating their position, why can't we talk to the Europeans?

R: I've been using exactly that tack. We can talk to the Soviets; we can talk to the Chinese, but we can't talk to the Germans, or the French, or the British or the Dutch or the Danes, and the like. This is just absolutely not acceptable.

K: And, incidentally, again for your information, we're not making anything off it, Ullman has requested an appointment with the President.

R: He has?

K: And we won't agree to it. We'll say we can't see any West European leaders - foreign ministers - separately.

R: Right. How about Gromyko? Are you going to see him?

K: Yeah. We'll see Gromyko.

R: OK. I think that's right, Henry.

K: Now, one other matter. I keep reading in the newspapers that the Europeans complain that we are forcing the pace on the European Security Conference. That can't be right.

R: That cannot be right, and we are not doing it. I will see that that is squared in this department.

K: And I think we ought to let the Europeans know that they should stop -- you know, not make a demarche, but, as they come in -- that we really take these constant stories rather ill.

DECLASSIFIED

Authenticity EC 7/55 &
BY G.NAR. Dic 6/55

R: OK. We're in complete accord. I think that's right.

K: Good. Maybe toward the end of this week you and I should get together. I haven't bothered you because I've been so busy for my confirmation hearings.

R: I'd like to, Henry. While I have you on the telephone, there are two things I might raise. One of them is Stan Resor. He's now accepted.

K: I'll be happy to see him.

R: And he wants to see you sometime. But he has accepted.

K: Good. Wonderful.

R: I think I'll start the FBI on him, but we ought to hold this up until you come in, I think, to announce it.

K: I agree.

R: The other one is, we do have a deadline. You can be thinking about this, but Bill Hall is x director of the foreign service. I mentioned him to you, I think, as Ambassador to Indonesia.

K: Yeah.

R: Now, Bill is 59 and I've been thinking into it, there would be no great harm done if Bill retired. If I told him that he was not going to be ambassador anywhere, that you had told me this, then he wants to retire by the end of this month, because he gets an additional retirement.

K: I frankly don't know him.

R: You don't know him. OK.

K: I feel the more of the older group we can retire, the better off we are. But that's one of the things I wanted to discuss with you.

R: Right.

K: I have nothing against him.

R: I have nothing against him. He's done a good job, and the thinking generally is that if we gave him a post it would make it look as though we were rewarding the toughest job and the job that people don't want because they're always being pilloried. That's the point.

-4-

K: Yeah, well, I'm open-minded on that. Do you suggest that we give him a year in Indonesia and then retire him?

R: That's what I think would be a good idea, something of that sort. Then he goes from that to a post instead of from that into retirement. This should not be a retirement post. This should be a post where we put the best young men we have into it and that leads to bigger thing. That's the kind of aura I would like to put around it.

K: I agree with you.

R: Because that's the one where Heminway, you know, has been going after the deputy in it and kept him from being a director of ________.

K: Can somebody get me a piece of paper on Heminway. He torments us everywhere and I don't know who the hell he is.

R: Well, I know about him. He's a son of a bitch. I'll get you a paper on that.

K: Good. Just a page, a short memo, whom we are dealing with.

R: OK. Thanks, Henry.

K: Many thanks, Ken, and I'll see you later this week.

R: Right you are. Bye.

K: Bye.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority EC 12458
BY TOP SAR. DUE 6/16/64

Telcon
Jay Lovestone/HAK
Sept. 12, 1973; 9:26 a.m.

K: Hello.

L: Good morning. How are you? I'm sorry, I know you've been very busy and I've been fishing around. Listen, the suggestion is either Thursday at 12:00 or Friday at 12:00. Are either of them good for you?

K: I had a message that you suggested 10:00 on Thursday.

L: Well, let me tell you something. That was the original one that I had suggested, do you recall?

K: Yes.

L: But, let me tell you what has happened. There was a conflict as to time because Laird is coming in, you know?

K: Yeah.

L: And that might not give us enough time.

K: Right. How much time do you think we need? An hour?

L: I think an hour, every bit of it. I want to tell you very frankly. If you want to have it Friday I won't be able to join you.

K: Well, then, let's do it Thursday.

L: Thursday, all right?

K: The only trouble is the President is seeing some of the Trade Bill people at 11:00, and I hope it will be over by 12:00. I'd like you to be there.

L: Well that's the problem. Suppose we play it Thursday at 12:00.

K: Let's say at 12:00, and if I'm ten minutes late you'll understand.

L: Yeah. That's all right. OK?

K: Good. Wonderful.

L: Then, unless you hear from me to the contrary, it's Thursday at 12:00.

K: Excellent. See you then. Bye.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: EC

EC 12/25/8
BY NAR: Die 6/10/84

Telcon
Bernard Gwertzman/HAK

Sept. 12, 1973; 11:10 a.m.

G: We are getting reports the Soviets have stopped jamming Russian in VOA and BBC.

K: That is correct.

G: I'm pretty excited about this. I wonder whether you had been told this when you saw Dobrynin.

K: I had some information but this is in the area of things...

G: I understand. You come out looking like a great prophet.

K: I will be able to tell the committee more in executive than in public.

G: You were saying about quiet diplomacy has a better effect.

K: There was a development on the Jewish thing.

G: Can you tell me about that? Are they going to start letting the list out?

K: I would think soon.

G: OK. This is a separate story. Do you have any analysis why they did this for the CCE business?

K: Could be. We have been talking very seriously to them about these matters but in a way that makes it easy for them to yield.

G: Could I say you had some indication when you met with Dobrynin two weeks ago?

K: Why don't you say that is a reasonable surmise?

G: OK.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12558
By NAR. DUE 6/1/64

TELCOM

Bernie Gwertzman-Mr. Kissinger

September 12, 1973

11:25 a.m.

K: Hello.

G: Hello, Henry. I am very sorry. My editor called from New York to say Kosygin would be coming to New York.

K: That was when he thought he was coming for my swearing in.

G: (laughter)

K: I have had no indication that Kosygin is coming. That is almost inconceivable.

G: OK, I just wanted to check. Sorry to bother you.

K: That's all right.

G: OK, bye.

K: Bye.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: EOU 12/25/73
BY: SAR. Dic. 6/10/73

TELCOM

September 12, 1973/11:40 a.m.

Governor Rockefeller/HAK

R: Henry.

K: Nelson, how are you?

R: Listen I was on the West Coast so I didn't get a chance to stay in touch with you on your hearings on Monday but from what I hear from those who did things went beautifully.

K: Yeah, I think they're going along fine.

R: Happy said she heard on the radio they were going to confirm you on Thursday.

K: No. Because Fulbright is out of town.

R: Well, that's what I thought but that's what she said.

K: And therefore he's scheduled another Executive Session with me for next Monday but that everyone recognizes is a formality. Then they'll vote on it on Tuesday.

R: Oh marvelous.

K: And confirm it next week. And the present plan is to swear me in on Friday the 21st.

R: Marvelous Henry.

K: And I was wondering whether you and Happy could come down for that?

R: Unless I've got some speaking engagement. Wait'll I get Ann in here and find out. Friday, the 21st.

K: Right.

R: Alright this sounds exciting. This is marvelous.

K: It isn't definite yet but....

R: I just want to check the date. Annie is Friday the 21st... The morning or the evening?

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 1258
BY NAR. DUE 6/16/64

- 2 -

K: Probably in the morning.

R: Good because I have a 6:00 p.m. commitment at Lake Placid, New York, but in the morning you said so I don't think we've got any problem. No problem and as long as I left down there by 4:00 or something like that. That is just marvelous. Now listen when are you going to come out and take a little rest for a weekend?

K: Well I have to spend time down here now you know for these...

R: Getting organized.

K: Getting organized but maybe if I get confirmed by next weekend I might come up on Sunday.

R: Oh marvelous. Marvelous Henry. Well listen, this is good. We've got Dorothy Miller for you. She's delighted to do the job in any way you want it.

K: Oh, marvelous. Well I'll ask her to come down after I'm confirmed I think it's perhaps a little presumptuous to ask her to look at an office when I'm not confirmed yet.

R: Well what you might have unless... is Rogers there?

K: No.

R: Well she could come down. Just go through the space. You could have somebody take her through it. Get some ideas and when you met her latter.

K: Why don't I do that.

R: Yeah.

K: Why don't I do that.

R: Then you'd save time that way.

K: I'll have Dick Campbell call her and arrange for her to be taken around there.

R: That's the stuff and he can tell her what kind... you know how much change you want to make.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12458

By J.P. NARAYanan 6/16/64

change

K: Well I have to... One that I wanted I found out cost so much that I'm going... you know I can get the money but it's a question with all the other difficulties we have that I shouldn't do that so It's gotta be...

R: Statural or...

K: Well I wanted to have the panneling taken out.

R: Well you can put... I don't know how fancy it is. You can put stuff over it these days.

K: It isn't all that fancy. I thought perhaps I could get some paintings to put up over it that would be nice.

R: Yeah. And I think she can advise on how to buy paintings and so forth.

K: Right. No I can borrow paintings once I know what it is.

RL: Alright. You just have Dick call her and arrange for her to come down and look the thing over.

K: That would be marvelous.

R: That's great. OK.

K: I talked to your brother on Sunday.

R: Oh you did.

K: And he seems quite interested.

R: Isn't that fantastic. I think it's marvelous. Well he's talked to Dick Billwith (?) I know.

K: Oh he has.

R: Yeah, so he's taking it seriously.

K: No, I have the impression... he wants some assurances about his relations with Shultz but these things he has to do for himself.

R: You can say that again.

K: You know we can work out any theory we want. I think the way to do these jobs is to go down here and seize them.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12/58
BY order of the Authority Dated 6/1/64

- 3 -

R: Exactly. You and I know that.

K: Of course I haven't yet sprung that news on my leader.

R: Yeah.

K: He may demur.

R: Well one step at a time.

K: That's to what I say.

R: __________ is first.

K: That's what I thought.

R: Well ask her and Evoyne Malbanado who met you during one of the campaigns. My Venezuelan partner.

K: Oh yes.

R: He looks like the nephew of the Czar.

K: Are they with you.

R: Yeah, they're right here. They both send their best to you.

K: Thank you I appreciate it. Oscar wrote me a very nice note

R: Great well, he says you're stealing a partner of his.

K: Who's that?

R: Stan Resor.

K: Oh yeah.

R: Marvelous. I don't know how marvelous it is from our side but this is life. It'll enrich his firm.

K: Well, he's an excellent man and really the best man for the job.

R: Wonderful. Well listen Henry this is just great and anything you know we can do we're with you.

K: Well I'm anxious to talk to you when you come down here. You should get after Laird Nelson.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority E07258
By NAR. P. 6/1/94

- 5 -

R: I called him you know.

K: Yeah, but I'm told by Haig that he and Connelly are beginning to team up.

R: Oh really.

K: Yeah.

R: OK. I'll get down there and get him to dinner.

K: Right.

R: Great. Well I'll do that. I've been out speaking on this study you know I was down in New Orleans Political Scientists and yesterday out in Los Angeles with what ever you call it...town hall.

K: Well that's...these are all good things to do.

R: And I'm going to be in Chicago and speak there so that I've been trying to get that started and I'm getting the people put together. I've got 11 now.

K: Well I'll see you not later than the 21st.

R: That's right and I may get down next week before.

K: And when I come to the U.N. I'm going to give a dinner for the Latin Americans and I hope very much you can come to that.

R: Love to. Love to. Well you're great Henry and this is very exciting for all of us.

K: Well aren't you nice.

R: Call on me anytime.

K: Well you've been a marvelous friend. I'll see you next week.

R: You bet.

K: Bye.

R: Bye.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12458

BY JOHN Dic 6/10/64

TELCOM

Mr. Maw/HAK

September 12, 1973/11:47 p.m.

K: Hello

M: Henry, how are you?

K: OK Carl.

M: I heard the European press today is very well.

K: Well I think we've got it licked.

M: Good

K: And I met yesterday privately with the two Senators on this wiretap business and we showed them the FBI records because basically they make me look better than the newspapers have.

M: Yeah. Well good. You think that's cleared away now.

K: I think so. Unless Case leaves the reservation at the last minute.

M: What's that.

K: Unless Senator Case does something totally unexpected.

M: I'm surprised at his attitude.

K: Yeah. I don't believe it will last.

M: No.

K: Carl, what I really called you about is the following. It's what I discussed with you in Europe on the legal advisor position. I've talked to Ken Rush about it and he thinks we can now work it out if we give Scott an Embassy which I'd be delighted to do. If you really were willing to do it. You know I'm willing to do the other one too but it's always better to have something you're entitled to do from which you can be peeled off for a negotiation.

M: Well, that's certainly true.

K: You don't have to give me an answer this minute but on the whole I would like to bring in my own people.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: EOU 12/25/88

By: SAR, Die 6/16/89

- 2 -

M: Are you going to do that across the board.

K: Oh yeah, believe me. I'm holding my cards very close to my chest because I don't want to have an explosion before I'm confirmed.

M: Well I certain ly would hold it then and run it a little slower.

K: No, I'll do it very fast after I'm confirmed. I think the pain...you see if you do it all at once then it's no reflection on anybody it's just my way of bringing my new team in. If I do it over a period of months then it begins to be a reflexion on individuals and there will be a terrific state of uncertainty.

M: Yes, that's true.

K: But I have a very good chance, just for your information, of getting David Rockefeller.

M: That would be terrific

K: And you know then that would be ... it would show that we are again in a functioning organization. I'm trying to replace, this is strictly for you, Casey with David Rockefeller.

M: Well, what is the date of the confirmation now do you think.

K: Well, I think I'm going to be confirmed next week.

M: And then you're doing the U.N. thing.

K: Then I'm going to do the Un.N. thing so... but I would think that within two weeks of my confirmation.

M: You want to move.

K: I want to move... make all my moves in one week.

M: Yeah. Alright Henry let me come back to you. Can I be of any help otherwise.

K: No, you know not anything immediate but your two partners were terrifically helpful.

M: I'm glad. I thought what I got in the newspapers and since I got back last night reading trying to catch up that it looks pretty good from the standpoint of the ______ and the possible litigation too.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: EC 12958
By: JONAR. The 6/1/84

- 3 -

K: Well I think actually I can't touch the legal position but I think anybody who has looked over the records and has had the discussions knows... has a much clearer grasp now what went on. And that I was not the initiating force.

M: I think that's great. Get this out of the way it will clear a lot of air and I think it will help overall, not just the State and you but the overall picture.

K: I think that's right. Could give it some thought and give me a tentative view in a few days.

M: Yes I will Henry.

K: And I think it'd be a great joy. It does not preclude your handling specific negotiations but you'd be doing it from a base rather than on an ad hoc basis.

M: Well, you're very kind to suggest it and I will give it careful thought rethink it and come back to you.

K: Terrific.

M: I will do that

K: But think it positively. I don't really take no for an answer.

M: How long of a commitment would it require do you think Henry. Have you had any discussion of that.

K: No, I think to do it well my idea would be that you should reorganize that legal office. I don't know enough about it.

M: So that would take the minimum of a year to two years.

K: I would think two years would be safe or maybe 18months is possible. but my idea would be to that in every case that I fill I'd like to bring in somebody who doesn't settle for B+ but insists on A performance and that you know when you meet State Department people 3 years from now you just know that whatever was done is excellent.

M: Well, I'll come back to you. Have you talked to Stewart?

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E.O. 1255.8

By: J.N. ARNOLD, D.C. 6/16/64

- 4 -

K: No but I've talked to Ken Rush and we both understand that this can only be done if Stewart feels comfortable with it. I explained to Ken Rush that I will go ahead with Stewart if he feels a commitment is made but that I felt that for the ______ I want to bring, for the standards I want to raise I'd feel more comfortable with you and he said he thought that Stewart would be satisfied with an Ambassadorship.

M: He might like that as a matter of fact.

K: He said in fact he thought that psychologically if he understood that I don't just want him to administer that office but really strive it it he might not really be all that eager.

M: I'll give it careful thought and be back to you as quickly as possible.

K: Good Carl.

M: Right.

K: But be prepared to for the fact that I won't accept a negative answer the first time.

M: OK Henry.

K: And I mobilize some troops.

M: Congratulations on how you're handling this confirmation hearing. It just looks great.

K: Thank you. Look forward to seeing you soon.

M: Right Henry. Bye.

K: Bye.

DECLASSIFIED

TELCOM

Winston Lord/HAK

September 12, 1973/11:57 a.m.

K: Wynn.

L: Yes sir.

K: Win, may I suggest you know these newspapermen drive one crazy

L: Right.

KL: That if you call them stand to get another quote.

L: No, I told them I would refuse to comment. I just want the simple statement and I never said it was a good thing.

K: Yeah, but now I guarantee you by the time they are through with the story they'll write it that you are really implying that it was a bad thing.

L: No, I told them I was not implying any such thing and I just want that particular statement extractd. I think that misrepresentation.

K: No you certainly should not be made to say its a good thing.
never

L: I/said that and I don't believe it.

K: Of course not.

L: But I'm not going to have it turned the other way and make them think I'm attacking it either. I promise that.

K: You've been more decent about it.

L: Yeah. No and I'm certainly not going to let them push it the other way and I made that very clear of course when I wouldn't make any comment. It doesn't mean...all I want is that particular quote of good thing retracted.

K: I think this thing is now going to quiet down.

L: Well, that's the important thing and I gather the way it went yesterday

I

K: You know the FBI reports make it clear that/overstated my participation in it with respect to others so as far as I was concerned.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: EC 07258

By: SAR: Die 6/10/64

- 2 -

L: No I think that's behind us and I'm delighted.

K: You know, I don't know what Case is going to do. He's so erratic. But he was certainly reasonable at the meeting.

L: Well they had no business even looking at that report.

K: That's right.

L: Well, the important thing is I think it looks like this thing with Case. I gather he's been particularly the last year or so, unpredictable. It sounds like it's going well though. By the way you've done a fantastic job...you know the ______ that is inevitable is that there has been some very interesting ______ philosophical exchanges that have been educational for the people as well the Senate. Now the Senate getting it but none of which gets any play. It's all, you know the particular tactical issue but I think these hearing have already demonstrated one of the areas of your nomination is you can...I think you've already made an impact on the Committee in terms of thinking in bigger terms.

K: Now Win are you looking for a staff.

L: I have a chart Henry of my position and candidates for each position

K: Because you must really get the 10, 15 top people.

L: What I've done is I've looked at all the personnel lists that Larry has been getting and what you've been getting and from that I have constructed my ______ candidates and I can show it to you anytime.

K: What I want to tell you is (1) don't worry about your youth, I've always had major positions for which I was much too young. The way you get authority is to take charge.

L: Right. I understand. John Kennedy was President in his early 40's so I guess that.

K: I mean just take charge of the thing. Move brutally and decisively early. Don't let the lava...rather make a mistake and get rid of the guy but don't consult too much, I mean consult enough, but then take a plausible flyer.

L: Once I have a ....

K: But I'd like to go over them with you because I consider your people the key men.

DECLASSIFIED

- 3 -

L: No, obviously I can't make any approaches now and I won't until you have approved any of them.

K: Look at this fellow Holmes. I don't even know him but he looks damn good.

L: No, I've heard a lot... there is a lot of good candidates for that area and he's one I've got on the list.

K: Good.

L: Anytime you want to see that... I wanted to talk to you after you talked to Hartman.

K: When is Hartman coming in.

L: I thought he was coming this afternoon but he's not on your schedule so I don't know. I think it would be good to check some names with him. He would know them.

K: Yeay, but I can't offer Hartman anything until I'm confirmed.

L: I see.

K: I just want to talk to him in general. Don't check anything with Hartman.

L: No I won't. I was going to check with you first but..

K: No, no he's a blabber mouth. We'll bring him back after I'm confirmed. OK.

L: OK. Bye.

K: Bye.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority E072658
BY PAPAR. DUE 6/16/84

TELCONE

Brent Bozell/HAK

September 12, 1973/12:04 p.m.

K: Hello.

B: Hello Henry. How are you. Brent Bozell.

K: Yes, how are you.

B: How have you been all these years.

K: OK

B: Henry, I called because of - we're trying to send a man down this afternoon from San Francisco to Santiago to try to scout out the situation there for Triumph and to do a little traffic policing. He's a Chilean by birth and has contacts down there. I think he's got an uncle was head of the Supreme Court. And he'll get along alright I think as far as the Chilean contacats go but I was wondering if there was somebody in the Embassy that you might be able to point him to as being a sound observer and so on not an Allende type.

K: Well the only one person I know down there is the Ambassador Mat Davis.

B: Mat Davis. Is he a good man.

K: I'd be interested to get your observers judgment quite frankly. I'm debating it.

B: Could you ask him or somebody ask him to receive on that.

K: I'll tell him your man is coming and that he or somebody should receive him.

B: OK. His name is Carlos Lopez.

K: Alright.

B: Do you happen to know whether the civilian plane ban has been lifted yet?

K: I don't know.

B: There wouldn't be any of our planes going down there right now.

K: No.

B: Well why I don't I tell him to make that inquiry at the Embassy and then he will be dropping by through here probably the first of the week and I'll ask him to...

DECLASSIFIED

Laundered EC 12/95 8
BY GONAR, DEC 6/10 94

TELCORN

Ambassador Bunker/HAK

September 12, 1973/1:02 p.m.

K: Hello.

B: Hello Henry.

K: Ellsworth. How are you? The only thing better than having one
Bunker working for you is to have two Bunkers working for you.

B: Well congratulations anyway.

K: Thank you.

B: You've had a pretty rugged time of it.

K: Yeah, and I'm not completely through yet but I think it'll be alright.

B: Good. Well, I'm sitting around. I don't know when I'll have to get up
there but sometime if you have a few minutes I'd like to come over and
see you.

K: I'm anxious to see you Ellsworth and I'm anxious to put you to work so
I know you've assigned to Panama/Negotiations but we I'm sure that I
want to get to that other task which I'd like you to carry out.

B: Well yes fine.

K: You know I'm a great admirer of yours.

B: Well, it's mutual I may say and I'm certainly delighted that ... it's really
marvelous. What we're all hoping for.

K: Well, I hope I can live up to what so many people expect. But look
Ellsworth, let me get Eagleburger or Campbell to call you within the
next week.

B: Sure. The only thing I'm obligated for Henry is to go and address the
New York/New Englanders Publishers Association the end of next week.
They're meeting in Vermont and last summer I agreed to talk to them.

K: That's great. We can work it in to work you schedule.

B: OK. How are you otherwise.

K: Are you living down here now. I know you were down most of the summer.

B: We have a house temporarily in Georgetown till the middle of November
and we're actively looking for a place to rest permanently.

K: Good. I hope to see you very soon then. Bye

B: Bye Henry.

Telcon

Carl Marcy/HAK

Sept. 12, 1973; 3:20 p.m.

M: Good afternoon, Henry.

K: Carl, how are you?

M: Fine.

K: Carl, I was thinking about our conversation yesterday. Not the one in Senator Case's office but the one when you called me on the phone.

M: Yes.

K: And it occurred to me that if you thought it appropriate, since I'll be so bloody busy after the confirmation - I'll be going off to New York - if you thought it appropriate to meet with me, say for a half hour, 45 minutes, before the process is completed to talk about the mechanics of cooperation, Eagleburger and Lowenstein you know can discuss the schedules.

M: Yes.

K: But they won't be in as good a position as you and I would be to think out just what it is the committee could reasonably do, and then if you felt you could do this, if you could advise me what I could propose with them or tell what you think the Chairman might like and find helpful.

M: I'd be delighted.

K: I really think it would get us ahead of the power curb if we could do it before the confirmation if the schedule is going to be roughly what you indicated yesterday. Because if it is what you indicated, I will be off in New York for a week afterwards.

M: Yes. I would be delighted. I want to gather my thoughts a bit. Maybe we could do it on Thursday or Friday.

K: Yes, I could do it Friday or Saturday, actually.

M: Well, I'm hoping to get away Saturday. Do you want to pick a time on Friday and put it into your schedule.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12958
By NAR. Date 6/16/84

-2-

K: Yes, let's do it on Friday then. Can you hold on a minute?

M: Sure.

K: How about 11?

M: 11 will be fine. Let's make it at 11.

K: Good. Would you mind coming to my office?

M: No, no, I'd be delighted. I've got to go to the dentist that morning so I'll fit it in with other painful things. [laughs]

K: OK. [laughs]

M: That's a joke. I don't remember the context of. 11 - and where do I come?

K: Come to the White House. Go in at the Northwest Gate. That's at Pennsylvania Avenue. We'll have you cleared in. And then go to the West Lobby and we can meet in my office.

M: All right. I'll be there at 11 o'clock on Friday.

K: And I'll tell you some ideas that I have had. And if you could give some thought how we can get your subcommittees, for example, related to ongoing work.

M: All right. Very good, I'll try to give it some thought. I will give it some thought, and I'll see you then at 11:00. Let me tell you one other thing. I'm working on a report here with the idea of recording what went on here yesterday in conversations, and so on, and I checked with Olstess, Markman and Case and we hope that by some time this afternoon we'll have something which we can show either to you or the Attorney General, or both of you.

K: Well, I'll be very pleased.

M: Which, in effect, is based on the notes that I made, so that I'm not unfairly reflecting anything that was said. And both of them have agreed that we ought to do that.

K: Well, I'll be delighted. Do you want to send it over, or should we pick it up this afternoon.

M: Well, I'll be in touch with your office when we get this thing ready. I think that they will agree to that and I don't think there'll be any problem. But I just wanted to kind of alert you to it. It won't be terribly long, maybe 8 or 10 double-spaced pages.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority: E0 12/25 8
By: J. P. Nar. Dic. 6, 1954

-3-

K: Right. Well I thought -- not having seen the report, I may change my mind -- but I thought you handled the meeting itself in an extremely delicate and fair way.

M: Well, gosh, I was kind of disappointed in my client, but I think it went all right.

K: Who is your client?

M: Well, my clients - meaning Mr. Sparkman and Case.

K: Oh, yes.

M: I don't think they were anywhere as aggressive as they should have been.

K: Well, that I can't judge.

M: OK (laughing) Very good. I'll be in touch then.

K: OK. Fine. Bye.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12458
BY JOHN D. FOLEY 6/16/64

Telcon
Tom Korologos/HAK

Sept. 12, 1973; 4:48 p.m.

K: Hello.

TK: Henry, I talked to Marcy about what he's doing. He's writing two reports. One for the committee with all the machinations and things that he's going to show to you and to Richardson, and so on, and another summary report that he's gonna release to the press next Monday. And it's gonna say that we and the two Senators have seen the reports, we've seen the summaries, we are satisfied that we preserved the civil liberties of those who were bugged, we find this action, uh, they're gonna scold you. They're gonna say that was a bad thing you did, you went too far for what you achieved, you shouldn't have done that and, goddam it, don't do it any more. You were naughty.

K: I or the President?

TK: You - Henry Kissinger. Are you going to bug your assistant secretaries when you get over there?

K: Yeah, that was a stupid question.

TK: Yeah. He said that we're gonna scold you, because the results were sterile, there was no accomplishments in this thing. But I said, how's Case, which is the key to this whole thing. I don't give a ____ what he writes. Well he said, Case is OK. And I said, yeah, you said that before. He said well, Case will grump and fumble and be one of the guys...

K: Well I'll tell you, I won't accept the proposition that I did this.

TK: Well, I think it will be couched in words perhaps that the Administration shouldn't have done...well, the way he put it though, that we're gonna scold him, for letting this happen.

K: Well, in that case, I'll answer.

TK: And what I suppose they're gonna try to get out of you is, uh, he brought up the case that Ruckelshaus brought up that what if we find somebody, a bomb-thrower up there that got up to be number three in the whole Department. Do you mean to tell me we can't bug him? Well you keep using that extreme. The other thing he said was that he might put in the report if they'll approve that for heavens sake if you find

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 7/58
BY NAR. Dg 6/1/64

-2-

under some extreme circumstance that you have to do this, come
on up and tell somebody. Get two Senators together and tell them
look I don't trust this number 7 guy and I'm gonna bug him to prove
something's wrong.

K: Well, I haven't got that authority anyway.

TK: Yeah, that's an FBI thing. Well, his temperature was very calm.
He did say that they are...I think that this is mild compared to what
could have happened. I'm satisfied that he in fact read me the summary
report that they're gonna give that says that they were satisfied and
they think that there wasn't that much there that they had expected,
and so on.

K: You mean that they'll make public.

TK: Yeah. Well they're not going to make any of the summary public,
hopefully.

K: No, well what are they going to make public on Monday?

TK: A summary of findings that says that we have seen this report and we're satisfied; that we thank Henry Kissinger for showing us this and we're satisfied that it wasn't, uh...well, by golly, if they're gonna make it public and if they're satisfied, that might exonerate you.

K: Is that what they're gonna do?

TK: He's not sure, see. He's still writing it. He stood there during the conversation and even though they scold you they're satisfied that they have been shown the report.

K: Yeah, but, you know that doesn't mean a gooddam thing.

TK: Well, what I think is gonna happen, they're gonna...

K: I'm not interested in getting fine scores in Congressional-Executive
relations. I want them to be satisfied with the result, not with the
procedure.

TK: I think that you'll find that the result will be OK too. I'm crossing
my fingers when I say that. He's going to mail that thing down to you
tomorrow, or something, after he shows it to Sparkman and Case. And
you'll see the tone of what it is...

K: Yeah, but that part of it I understand. But what is it that they're gonna make public?

-3-

TK: They're gonna make public that we thank Henry Kissinger and the Administration for giving us these two reports. We've seen the summary. Sparkman feels that it is OK and Case feels that it is OK that we proceed with this nomination. And then in the Executive Session they're gonna' scold him" -- and that undoubtedly can leak out. From Moose or one of those people who're gonna say that we chewed Henry's ass out.

K: And then they are gonna do what?

TK: Then we decide on Monday whether this satisfies the full Committee, which we think it will, and then we meet tomorrow, Tuesday, in Executive Session to report the nomination.

K: Well that sounds OK then.

TK: I think so, oh yeah, I think we're all right. It's tantamount to saying OK, he's fine, he's clean.

K: Yeah. Well you can't expect them to endorse the practice. Now the only thing is I will have to insist that whatever they ascribe, they ascribe to the Administration.

TK: To the system, yeah. Didn't you kinda do that in the hearing yesterday?

K: I hope so. Well, I'm seeing March on Friday morning.

TK: OK.

K: Do you think I can bring that point up to him?

TK: It wouldn't hurt.

K: OK. fine.

TK: OK, sir.

K: Bye.

TELCORN

Robt McNamara/HAK

September 12, 1973/5:55 p.m.

K: Hello

M: Hello Henry.

K: Bob.

M: Thank you for a marvelous evening the other night and for that
magnificent performance on TV every night since.

K: Aren't you nice. That's carrying friendship too far.

M: Well Hell, its terrific Henry. It's better than a thriller.

K: Bob, I have one of your recalcitrant protegees here again who needs
a little inspiration. He's in my office. I'm not talking behind his
back.

M: Who is he.

K: Bill Donaldson.

M: Oh, that's easy.

K: I wondered whether you'd be willing to see him and tell him your views
of the situation.

M: Right now if its convenient to him. I'm just down the block.

(asks Donaldson if it's convenient now-he relies yes)

M: 1818 H street. You know it's just 2 blocks from the White House. He can
walk down here in 5 minutes.

K: OK I'll send somebody with him just to make sure that he knows where.

M: I'll look forward to seeing him

K: He'll come right over.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12458

By order of the
NAR. Ltr 6/64

TELCONE

Ken Rush/Kissinger

9:03 a.m. - 9/13/73

K: Hello.

R: Good morning, Henry.

K: Ken, a number of things. I'm told over here, I don't know how true it is, that Kubisch went up to the Committee to brief them yesterday.

R: He did, yes.

K: We didn't have any idea of what the hell he was going to say and it has the tendency of pushing everything into the White House again which is the favorite pastime of every department in town.

R: Yes, as a matter of fact I didn't even know he was going myself. He told me what he said when he came back.

K: Well, but we have to know these things when he goes.

R: Right.

K: Now unless he said that we knew about it 12 to 14 hours ahead of time, that we expected it Monday, it happened Tuesday and he informed the highest authorities. Now this may or may not be true. If he did it certainly didn't penetrate to me.

R: He didn't tell me he said that.

K: That's what Ziegler tells me all the newspapers have.

R: I haven't seen the newspapers but what Kubisch told me was that we knew nothing about it; that we had not been told about it and it came as a complete surprise to us and that the turnaround of our destroyers and submarines took place after the thing started and when we found out about it. So there's something wrong here somewhere, Henry.

K: Right. Well, now at the briefing today I think we can express regret at the personal fate of Allende.

R: Yes, we worked out some language on that. I thought it was to go out last night saying that we regretted the death of Allende - we regretted the loss of lives including particularly the death of the Head of State, Allende. And just let it go at that.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E.O. 12558
BY: RONAR, Die 6/16/84

2

K: Yeah, we can say that.

R: Right.

K: And we can also say we do not support revolutions as a means of settling disputes but this - that is perfectly consistent with what we did here.

R: Right.

K: We didn't support it. Now I am also told that people are raising the issue of Davis coming back here.

R: Who's coming back?

K: That Nat Davis was back here to talk to me - our Ambassador.

R: They raised that question and the answer is

K: I think the answer is that I asked for him three weeks ago when I was appointed and we left it up to him to pick the time.

R: This is right.

K: When it was least likely to be disturbing to the conduct of his mission and that's another good proof that we didn't know anything about it.

R: As a matter of fact that's exactly what I told them to say that the fact that he came back when all those large numbers of Ambassadors that you requested three weeks ago and that he picked the time shows that we knew nothing about it.

K: Exactly.

R: We're on the same beam there, Henry.

K: Good. Now

R: This statement as to what Kubisch said must be wrong because he came back from that and told me at once what he had said.

K: Right. Of course it's an absurd situation where we have to apologize for the overthrow of a hostile government - of a government hostile to us.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: EC 12458
By: NAR. Die 6/10/84

3

R: I know it is, but I think so far - I haven't seen this thing about what Kubisch said he knew about it ahead of time.

K: Ziegler just mentioned it to me; I haven't seen it myself.

R: This would be a statement by some Senator who heard him - what happened was Gale McGee called together about eight Senators, Javits, Church, all the doves and he brought them together to prevent their going overboard on accusing us with regard to Chile or making bad statements. When Kubisch went up, Gale McGee had this group together. Kubisch, he thinks, convinced them that we had nothing to do with it at all. He had some very searching questions from the doves, from Church; Javits was a help and Javits I think was agreeing with helping Gale McGee. That overall it was a real plus and it just suddenly came up, Henry, and he went up and told me about it when he came back.

K: Ok. Well, no, he did the right thing.

R: He did the right thing and he said the right thing. He did not wrong, he said the right thing.

K: Good. Make sure that they don't shift it into this building because I didn't know that a coup was coming at any particular date. We'd been hearing coup rumors for a year.

R: Absolutely, and Kubisch said that we knew nothing about it. We meaning the White House, the State Department, everything.

K: Right. OK. Many thanks.

R: OK, Henry.

TELCOM

David Rockefeller/Mr. Kissinger

2:54 p.m., September 13, 1973

K: David, how are you?

R: How are things going?

K: Well, they are going along very well.

R: It looks from the papers as though you've met a good deal of head wind.

K: Yeah, I think I'll get confirmed next week.

R: But not till then?

K: No, because Fulbright is out of town.

R: I see. But the worst is over.

K: That's what I think. David, I just wanted to tell you that I had a chance to talk to the President about our discussion, which I thought I should do.

R: Yes, I wondered whether you had before or not.

K: Frankly, no, I hadn't. And he was enthusiastic.

R: Well, that's interesting.

K: Which is interesting. And he said that he would let me get rid of Casey, especially if the possibility was of bringing you in.

R: Yeah, but that's one of the complications I really feel, Henry, in taking that one but let's by all means talk about it. But that was his feeling?

K: That was his feeling.

R: Yeah.

K: And I know we're going to talk about it but I thought it might help you in the interval to think about it yourself a bit.

R: It's very helpful. But did you discuss it at all in the context of the other?

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: EU 12/95/8

BY NAR: The 6/16/94

2

K: Of the other Saturday?

R: Of the other job because you had mentioned a [two stage ?] of air and I wondered whether you had mentioned more than the one.

K: No, I frankly had not but I'm positive that that second stage will not be the major problem.

R: I see. Well, but those are the things I think we need to --

K: That I'm confident will not be a problem.

R: Right.

K: But I'll be glad to raise that with him before you come down on Tuesday.

R: I mean, just to give you -- my feeling is to leave what I'm doing, given the competition that would entail here plus what I am able to do here, for the number three spot I find a little difficult to justify in terms of what I am giving up. But, you know, I am just throwing out what has been going through my mind. Understand, I am not asking you but you mentioned the other and my query is whether it's wise to try to do it in two steps.

K: Well, you see the second step I just am flatly not permitted to do now.

R: Yeah.

K: And I can explain to you why when you -- because there were very serious commitments made.

R: Sure, I understand.

K: And if those are not -- not only not kept but the opposite is done, that would be a gross breach of faith.

R: Right. Well, this is very helpful for me to be able --

K: But I can tell you, David, the way I operate, the formal position is not all that important.

R: Well, I think that's probably true and I really am not that concerned about --

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EO 1248

3

K: You see, he will be away on many ceremonial trips and so forth.

R: Yeah, that isn't the primary concern. But why don't we just leave it
that way --

K: Well, we will talk about it at greater length on Tuesday.

R: What I've also done, Henry, was to suggest that if you -- and I gather
you probably wouldn't have more than an hour, which is already a lot
given what you've got on, but this might take a fair part of that and
therefore would there be any minute to your starting me on the other
briefing and then perhaps is there somebody else who could continue
it a little longer?

K: Oh, certainly.

R: This is on the trip to --

K: Yes, yes, of course.

R: You see what I mean? You said you wanted to talk with me before.

K: We can do that on Tuesday.

R: I was hoping we could.

K: Yeah.

R: And perhaps you could tell me what you have in mind yourself and then
if there were someone else who could follow up. I'm having dinner
that night with Admiral Zumwalt at 7:30 so that if I come to see you
at 5:00, I would be able to stay on a little longer with someone else
if there is someone else who could fill me in on anything that you
weren't able to cover in the time available.

K: Right.

R: Maybe that isn't necessary. I don't quite know whether you -- you
said there was a message you wanted to give me.

K: Right. Well, if it's necessary, I can arrange that.

R: Well, that's entirely up to you. I just thought I would mention it, that
I would be available to stay longer if it were desirable.

4

K: Right.

R: Perfect. Well, thank you very much, Henry, and I will look forward to seeing you Tuesday.

K: I look forward to it very much, David, and I'm really very encouraged even though I know that this is a very tentative thought on your part.

R: Well, yes. There are so many questions that come up and I think those we have to discuss.

K: Of course.

R: Great.

K: Look forward to seeing you.

R: Bye.

wgh

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12/58

BY NAR. Die 6.10.64

TELCORN

John Mullikan, TIME/Mr. Kissinger

4:20 p.m., September 13, 1973

M: Doctor, John Mullikan. Thank you for picking up the phone after all those speeches last night.

K: That's all right, I found it very helpful.

M: I think it probably was for you and also for me. We have a report out about of Boston that I thought you ought to be asked about and I can't identify the sources because I don't --

K: That's all right, what's the point?

M: That two of your aides were dispatched to Western European capitals last week to organize or see if they could organize a complete economic boycott of the Arab nations.

K: Total nonsense.

M: Okay. Thank you very much.

K: That's not a direct quote, that's for your guidance.

M: No, but I would like to be emphatic when I reply to New York.

K: But I just don't want to be quoted as having said total nonsense. You can tell New York that there's absolutely nothing to it.

M: Nothing to it. Thank you very much.

K: Right.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12958
By DONAR, Prc 6/16/64

TELCORN

Bryce Harlow/Mr. Kissinger

4:22 p. m., September 13, 1973

K: Hello, Bryce.

H: Henry, you're much easier to reach while your nomination is pending.

K: You better believe it.

H: You notice? That's why I keep calling you.

K: Things are going to change dramatically as soon as that Senate vote is in.

H: I know it's going to change; I'm just going to use every bit of it.

K: You'll be lucky if you can get my Assistant.

H: I understand that but for the moment I'm in a hell of a powerful relationship
here.

K: You've got a great relationship and given your record on nominations,
it ought to hold for a good long time.

H: I've got to get one done, you know, in 11 years.

K: I've already had a call from Carswell and from Haynesworth telling me
not to worry about a thing, you told them it was in the bag.

H: I'm keeping my record in mind as I move forward with yours. I use
the same techniques, see.

K: I've noticed it; it is very good.

H: I just wanted to let you know -- I think you know this already and I think
Stu Symington has said to you in Committee he'd support you, didn't he?

K: Yeah.

H: Well, Hugh Scott called and just wanted to make sure you knew that
Stu Symington saddled up to him and said everything is copasetic; he's
strongly for you.

K: Oh, good.

H: And this confirms that in a private chat with the Minority Leader.

K: Marvelous.

DECLASSIFIED
Authentic EO 1258
BY QAR. ME 6/16/73

Bryce Harlow/Mr. Kissinger

2

H: I asked Hugh if he had talked to Cliff Case and he said, no, it wouldn't help much unless he talked to him just before he walked into the Committee room. (laughs) But he said if Cliff decided to cut up any -- No, he said if he were going to, the only person possible he would get to support him any would be Fulbright and he said I don't see that either so don't worry about it.

K: Now Marcey has sent over the Report he's making to the Committee and I just wonder if you would like to look at it.

H: Is it worrisome?

K: Not to me, but since I don't look at it from the eyes of a --

H: A non-involvee.

K: Yeah. Would you take a look at it?

H: Okay, that's fine.

K: I'll have it brought up to you.

H: All right. How long is it?

K: It's about 21 pages.

H: No kidding!

K: Yeah.

H: It's longer than the report.

K: It's double-spaced -- it's a pretty fair summary of the report and it just depends on how you interpret it and they're not pointing it at me.

H: I see. Well, all right, let me look at it. There's nothing we can do about it anyway, is there?

K: No, he's willing to accept comments from me.

H: Oh, all right. Very good.

K: And there are a number of mistakes, which I've already caught.

H: All right. Good. Okay.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12/5/58

BY NAR. Die 6/10/64

TELCONE

Arthur Burns/Mr. Kissinger

9/13/73 6:47 p.m.

B: Hi, Henry, how are you?

K: Okay.

B: Well, it gives me great pleasure to get you on the phone and congratulate you personally and to tell you how very, very happy I am.

K: Aren't you nice.

B: It means a great deal for the President and the country and I think your confirmation is sewed up--it was from the first moment--How do you feel?

K: You know it is a great ______ and you and I talked about it, I think it is needed for the continuity of our foreign policy--we've more needed to have one part of our government that now functions with sense of mission and integrity.

B: Oh yes. I think it is going to make a world of difference--and you know your appoint has been received with joy--and sense of relief around the world--that's what I gather--from my friends abroad as well as from the press.

K: Yeh, that's been the reaction. In many countries. Arthur I've been going after some of the people you were kind enough to mention.

B: Hm, huh.

K: And I may--I can't talk to you in detail about it but I may enlist your help.

B: Right, well I'm available anytime Henry. Look I've got a specific question--I'm going to Nairobi for the monetary fund meeting and then you rmemeber my talking to you going to So. Africa and then I decided that it probably would be wise, not from my viewpoint, but from the President's and your viewpoint if I spent a day in Some black African country (south)and I picked Nigeria--I'll spend a day and a half there. Now I specifically wish to ask--and Kkx I have no thought on the matter at all, whether you would consider it desirable for me to carry a Presidential message--I'll be meeting with the PM in So. Africa and I don't know about Nigeria--I heard that the head of the country whoever he might be--I'm ignorant--

K: Yeh, he's coming over here

DECLASSIFIED

Authentic EC 12/58 &
BY QAR: DAE 6/10/73

Page 2

B: That he's going to be away at the time.

K: Yeh, he's coming over here.

B: I see, now if you think it would be helpful, please have it done.
If you think unnecessary or better not to, that's that.

K: No--I'll get it done. It's easy and in fact it's in our interest.
But I would like to talk--when are you going off to Nairobi?

B: I'm going off early Thursday morning.

K: Next week?

B: Right.

K: Are you in town this weekend?

B: Yeh, I'm in town.

K: Maybe on late Sunday or Saturday morning.

B: I can arrange it--let me call you back--Saturday morning I have an
appointment now, but I can shift it perhaps. My appointment Saturday
morning is 10:00, I recall--

K: How about aiming for breakfast around 8:30?

B: Breakfast with you Saturday -- 8:30

K: I may have to change it, but if you don't hear from me by noon tomorrow
--let's say 8:30 tomorrow--rather Saturday

B: Fine.

K: Because I want to talk over some of these economic things with
you that you were kind enough to advise me--
I just want you to know that I'm moving in the direction you recommended

B: Wonderful--well I'll see you Saturday 8:30 unless I hear from you
to the contrary.

K: Right and what you might give some thought to is we have got to get
Treasury under control and to see what you can do to help out in this.

B: That is--

K: I mean assuming I get the State Dept strengthened enough to get standing

DECLANIFIED
Authentic
EC 012958
BY: SARAH DEG 10/6/64

Page 3

up to them.

B: No, no, that can be done, smoothly.

K: Cause basically George is willing to listen to reason if somebody
can be persistent enough.

B: No, no, I think--I we'll talk that over--I have thought about it myself
--I have definite views on that and the --your relation with George
is excellent--mine is personal, it goes back many years.

K: No I think between the two of us, we can do it and as long as I know what
I want.

B: It would be to his interests actually.

K: Absolutely. Good Arthur, see you for breakfast Saturday.

B: Yeh, fine.

K: Bye.

DECLANIFIED
REDACTED

Authentic EC 12958

BY DONALD MCDONALD 12/6/64

TELCONE

Cong. Thomas Morgan/Mr. Kissinger

9/13/73 10:41 p.m.

K: I just wanted to call you to tell you that I hadn't thought it appropriate to call on you and your colleagues while I'm not yet confirmed, but that I hope very much that as soon as my confirmation is completed, that you might arrange first of all to let me call on you, and secondly, to perhaps have me meet with all or part of your committee --whatever you think is useful.

M: Well there is no problem of course, we didn't want to bother you with when you were having so damn much trouble on the other side of the capitol

K: But I know where our friends our--

M: So I'm sure Henry as soon as everything is out of the way, there is no problem up here sitting down if you want to talk to -- the top members

K: Well why don't we just first talk to Bill Maillard and you--and then we'll decide how to work out a cooperative relationship--now another thought I've had Mr. Chairman, I don't know what your thought is--but when I go up to the UN, I thought it might be nice to take a few members of each of the committees with me--say 4 from the Senate and 4 from your committee--maybe you and the ranking member and two members of the subcommittee dealing with UN affairs, if you think appropriate.

M: That'd be fine.

K: And that would be on the 24th--and

M: 24th of September

K: of September and if you could stay until the 25th and perhaps attend some of the functions that'll be going on up there, it'd be a good way of showing the unity between our two branches.

M: That'd be fine.

K: Could you plan on this tentatively assuming that the other side of the Congress completes the confirmation next week?

M: I sure could.
And I'll brief Bill on it a little bit day to forewarn him.

K: Good, that'd be very nice Mr. Chairman.

M: Right.

TELCOM

Rowland Evans/Kissinger

8:30 a.m. - 9/14/73

K: Rowland?

E: You still having breakfast with Mr. Laird?

K: I can't talk to you because your partner is here with me.

E: That's the funniest. That is the funniest.

K: You see, the trouble is we are having a feud which we are settling.

E: Listen, Henry, seriously....

K: What's happening now is he's keeping me out of the President's office.

E: Can you come for dinner on Tuesday with Stu and Kay? It's not a party, it's just six of us,

K: I'd love... no, Tuesday I can't. How about Wednesday?

E: No, it has to be Tuesday. He's tied up Wednesday.

K: No, it's the dinner for

E: Do you have to go to that?

K: Yes, well as Secretary-designate.

E: When do you get out of it? When is it over?

K: Well, now I think I'll have to sit through the entertainment. I used to duck out at the entertainment. I think now they watch me. I've got to stay there.

probably

E: Well give my best to Mr. Laird.

K: About 11:00 I can come if you're still.....

E: Well, yeah, it's going to be a late dinner. We're not going to eat until 9:00.

K: O.K. I'll tell you I'll come by about 11:00.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority E 07/26/88

BY GSN MAR. 6 1989

*

TELCOM

George Sherman/Kissinger

9:00 a.m. - 9/14/73

K: Hello?

S: Dr. Kissinger.

K: George, I'm clearing you for SAT.

S: Now what place are you sending me now?

K: SAT. (laughter) in-land Ireland, in-land country. I don't think the Washington Star has any reporters there. And you can be a Deputy Chief of Mission.

S: Did you enjoy the other night?

K: I enjoyed it.

S: Really?

K: Yeah.

S: We're not usually so quarrelsome.

K: Well, I thought the opposition group subsided after a while.

S: Yeah. Sometime we'll have to talk about that. I think it was rather embarrassing at several points. But that's the press. What I wanted to ask you is, where, you know, I have to write one of these long editorial essays that we run every Sunday?

K: Yeah.

S: And not for this Sunday, but for a week from Sunday, and I would like to.....

K: You can check the spelling of my name with my office.

S: (laughter) I would like to write it on the next, you know, for where we go from here in foreign policy, taking in, too, your conf'rmation, and I was wondering whether you might have a half-hour talk with me next week?

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12/25/8

BY QJNAR. DUE 6/16/84

*

-2-

K: Assuming the confirmation goes through without a hitch, I'll do it.

S: O.K. Say Wednesday or Thursday?

K: Yes.

S: As I recall, your hoping that the confirmation will be Wednesday?

K: Well, I don't know. I think the committee votes on it on Tuesday.

S: Then if it's approved they can probably get it through the Senate on
Wednesday?

K: Well, I don't know what the parliamentary rules are.

S: I've got to write the thing on, say, Thursday and Friday, so it looks
like it is going to go through.

K: If it goes through, say, on Wednesday, I'll do my damndest to see
you Thursday or Friday.

S: Thursday or Friday. O.K. I'll call - is Peter Burke taking over
Dick Campbell's place?

K: Yep.

S: I'll call Peter?

K: Right. Ever since Campbell testified against my nomination today.

S: (laughter) What's he going to do? What African country are you
sending him to?

K: He's probably coming to State with me.

S: Is he? Good. Very good.

K: I don't think these picky guys over there can stand the shock of direct
exposure to me immediately.

S: Oh, I see, you're going to use Dick outside your office instead of...
to pave the way?

K: ..... of my first onslaught, so that by the time I get loosened some
of the fury will have been spent.

S: O.K. I'll talk to you next week.

K: So long.

DECLASSIFIED

City: EC 12/5/8
By: NARAYAN, D. K. 12/6/89

TELCONE

Bryce Harlow/Kissinger

9:46 a.m. - 9/14/73

K: Hello.

H: Yes, sir.

K: Bryce, I asked you about Spong, I haven't asked you about Zarnecki of the House Committee, the staff director of the House Committee?

H: He's gone there since I left.

K: No, he's been there forever.

H: Well, I meant as far as any kind of effect over there in the House Committee. I've always worked with Boyd Crawford, you remember Boyd?

K: Yeh.

H: He's the Carl Marcy of the House and I did not know who succeeded Boyd when he retired. He retired after I left there about two years ago or so and Zarnecki must have been appointed as his successor. I don't know him personally at all. I had a call in right now on this Bonn matter. I checked with the likeliest fellow who is utterly impossibly.

K: Yeh, that's Bill Scott.

H: That's Bill Scott. . . . . . . . . here to react to his being considered for a ______ confirmation position. All he has to do is to put in a little blue card. He said he'd do it.

K: Really?

H: Yeh, in other words this man is personally objectionable to me and then confirmation is impossible.

K: From your own state?

H: Yeh.

K: Are you bothered by the fact that Abrozak and Haskell have said they oppose me?

H: No. I think that - you see, he's just like McGovern. I think kind of worse.

DECLANIFIED

Authority EC 12458

BY G. NAR. DRE 6/16/84

2

*

K: That doesn't prevent unanimous consent? Are they going to block unanimous consent?

H: Well, they could do that - I don't know they might do it but more than likely they're just going to vote against you.

K: And let it come up and vote against me.

H: Yeh, because they won't get any money by holding it up.

K: That doesn't bother me.

H: They can't hold it up any appreciable time of course, but the time doesn't really matter.

K: Exactly.

H: All right. Scott's going to call me back. I'm just going to ask him how he reacts to these fellows. I would think he'd say that he's opposed to them; I would guess that.

K: Could you find out for me?

H: Yeh.

K: But point out to him that a lot of people have recommended him. You can tell him for what, can't you?

H: Yeh, I can go into it. I talked to Scott last night at this reception, he was over there. I'll talk to him before the morning's over. And if he says no, of course the things done.

K: That's fine.

H: If he says I wouldn't mind very much then if the thing has life in it and then there's ______ to talk to you.

K: But I'm not set on it.

H: No, I understand that, but it may be that it's just totally academic which I expect it is and we'll just see that. I know Bill Timmons thinks highly of Spong and I know that Scott does from Dave Abshire.

K: That's what I was told by Lehman.

H: OK, I'll be back to you.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: EC 12/58

BY GONAR, Dec 6/84

TELCOM

Mr. Maw/HAK

September 14, 1973/11:38 a.m.

K: Hello.

M: Hello Henry, how are you?

K: OK Carl, how are you?

M: Fine. I've done some positive thinking as requested.

K: Good.

M: As a result I'd like to join your team.

K: Terrific. Now let me just make absolutely sure that I can move that guy but if I don't move him out of this I'll set you up in some other capacity.

M: Well, I'd like to, if I could, be in the position where I had a chance to make an effective contribution and in the legal side I think I'd like to talk with you about the possibility of some restructuring.

K: Well my idea Carl would be that if you come in that you have a carte blanche. My idea is...I don't just want the existing thing as good as possible but I want the whole concept as good as we can make it.

M: Well, I think the present system, whatever you do, is whoever does it, is somewhat deceptive in that the legal input in the State Department ought to be at a higher level. It ought to be somehow at the decision making level and not in the implementation level whereas it sort of come to be in the last few years.

K: Right. Well, Carl, if someone of your stature comes in the way to do that is to have you sit in on some of my, on most of my meetings.

M: Well, I think on the organization chart you may want to make some changes. I don't know what's involved in doing that the way they did in defense and the way they did in Treasury.

K: No problem. I think it's no problem.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12958

BY GONAR DE 6/10/84

*

M: Yeah.

K: That's no problem. I think it's no problem.

M: Yeah, but whoever does the job I think...

K: And I think also you should think well, I definitely do it, I will just tell Ken Rush that that's what I want to do. I would frankly wait like to wait until the committee has voted so that there isn't any turning around by any disgruntled element.

M: I think you'll have to wait probably on all your appointments until you've got them all.

K: No, I'll announce them all together but we've got to do something about that other fellow.

M: Well, of course, I find that, as you know, personally very embarrassing, having supported him and...

K: Yeah, but I came to you and he didn't know and he didn't know anything and I don't know him. That's why I want to do it before I come there so it can't be a reflection on him and I'll give him an Embassy.

M: Well he might like that you know. He's had...he was in Brussels with the foreign office there for 2 1/2 or 3 years and very much enjoyed that.

K: Well actually most people that don't you know that wanted a useful job prefer an Embassy. I myself don't think it's as interesting as being in Washington but since he's at retirement age he might actually prefer that.

M: Well, it's conceivable because he does have facility with likely, he has lived abroad and he does enjoy it and his wife does especially.

K: What do you think about Sweden which is going to be opening up soon?

M: Well, he might be frustrated. He doesn't know Swedish, he speaks French.

K: Well, then maybe.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12458

BY RPAR. DUE 6/10/64

TELCONE - Marvin Kalb HAK

September 14, 1973 3:23 p.m.

HK Hello

MK Henry

HK Yes.

MK Hi, it's Marvin. I know you are very busy and I will be very brief. I just wanted personally to apologize for the conduct of one of my colleagues the other day. I didn't think that Hensley deserves well and I was very appalled about the whole thing. I just wanted you to know that a lot of us felt the same way and I wanted to express that feeling.

HK Aren't you nice. But it straightened out.

MK It straightened out towards the end. But actually he was waiting around and he had perhaps an extra drink and he shouldn't have done it and it was unnecessary and I think wrong. And I just wanted to tell you that most of us feel that way and that you should know that.

HK Well that is very nice.

MK And secondly on CBS business for a minute, we want, as I mentioned to you very much to get you on the _FACE the NATION_ And I know that your confirmation will come in next week and I was wondering therefore whether you could entertain either the 23rd of the 30th, for an appearance.

HK Let me get back to you on that next week. Supposing the Committee votes on Tuesday, I'll give you an answer whenever the day is the Committee votes, I'll let you know.

MK They vote on Tuesday, I talked to Sparkman this morning.

HK They are definitely voting on Tuesday?

MK They are definitely voting on Tuesday, oh you should have been up there today to hear all of your all of those friendly people.

HK Really?

MK Mama mia.

HK Was there anyone for me?

MK Well no, there were ten people against you. Ten people running from the Liberty Lobby to a young fascist organization to the Federation of Arab Associations and there was a good bit of talk. I would say if I had to put it

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: EC 12558
BY: SARAH P. G. 6/16/94

Marvin Kalb HAK

-2-

in percentage terms about 20% of the talk related to being Jewish. McGovern came out with a statement to former Senator Gruening that he thinks your policy is a disaster but he is going to vote x for your confirmation because he will at least have an opportunity of talking to you.

HK Who was that?

MK McGovern

HK McGovern, oh ____

MK So I figured if McGovern is saying that it is, that he is going to vote for you And then I talked to Sparkman and Sparkman says that everybody on the Committee is pro.

HK Oh good.

MK So that ix it is a very...

HK I would like ix it to be with as much as a self unity as we can muster.

MK Well I think, that is not k so. I think there will be probably end up being an unanimous x show. I would be surprised if it weren't.

HK Well, call me Tuesday afternoon. Good.

HK x G

MK Good, thank you Henry. Bye.

DECLASSIFIED

Authentic EU 12/5/8
BY ORDER OF PRESIDENT D. G. L. O. L.

TELCONE

Jack McCloy/Mr. Kissinger

7:00 p.m., September 14, 1973

M: You've been doing very well. I've been watching your confirmation. I must say it was extraordinary.

K: Aren't you nice.

M: You'll be confirmed next week?

K: I hope so unless something new comes up.

M: The reason I called you, Yemani was up here yesterday and talked to some of the top people up here and he was rather startling in what he was telling them was his intention. This is not from any commercial point of view but Jamison was quite disturbed about the long-range effect of it, that is, his idea that they were now in a position to pretty much dictate the flow of oil and the price of oil. He talked quite arbitrarily and quite vigorously about his intentions and they -- Jamison thought he might want to talk to you if you're seeing Yemani. I'm told you're going to see him next Friday. I don't know whether that's true or not.

K: I have no such plan. Who's Stevenson?

M: At any rate, he thought maybe -- Yemani is out West now, he's in this industrial conference out in San Francisco. He's coming to Washington and the story was he's going to see you next week. sometime.

K: Well, that may be but it's not on the schedule yet.

M: Yeah. Okay. But the point they were making was if you are going to see him, it might be a very good thing -- In fact, they are very much anxious to have Jamison and one other come in and talk to you and give you a little of the background of the philosophy that he expressed to them before you see him.

K: All right. I'd like to get the oil companies together anyway.

M: Yeah.

K: I had hoped to be able to do it after I got well established to see whether we couldn't adopt a concerted governmental and oil company policy.

M: Yeah. I think that would be good. I think it might be well not to get too many of them together too soon because there are so many diverse interests.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: EO 12958

By: J.P. NAR. Date: 6/16/73

*

Jack McCloy/Mr. Kissinger

2

K: No, I thought I would get 5 or 6 of the major ones.

M: A small group of the top fellows.

K: Well, could you make a suggestion of who they are. Of course, Jamison.

M: Jamison would be one. Rawley Warner would be another. Butch
Grandville of Texaco; he's in there in a big way. And I'd say Standard
Oil of California, Otto Miller.

K: (laughs) You're going to kill me with the Jewish Community but I agree.

M: You see, I can drop --

K: No, no, no; I agree. He must be in it. But everyone tells me he's a
very bright fellow.

M: Oh, yes, he is and a very decent fellow. I didn't think his statement was
very bad.

K: I didn't read his statement.

M: ... very negative. It was just what everybody needs is peace in this
area and I'm all in favor of solving that thing as promptly as we possibly
can. I think it's in the American interest.

K: The account I had didn't sound to me unreasonable.

M: It wasn't unreasonable but it caused a lot of demonstration out there.
But then he saw some of the top Jewish people went out to see him and
I think they got along very well.

K: Well, I think he has to be part of it.

M: Sure, I would think so. I'd say Otto Miller. Now the other people would
be Dorsey of Gulf.

K: You might want to come in with them.

M: Well, maybe, maybe. Now when would you want to do it.

K: I would prefer to do it when I am back from the UN.

M: Uh-huh. When do you go up there?

K: I'm going there about the 24th.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: EU 12/558

BY R.J. SAR, DRE 6/16/64

Jack McCloy/Mr. Kissinger

3

M: Let me ask you this, as an aside, are you going to Aspen when Brandt's out there?

K: Well, I've been playing with the idea.

M: Brandt asked me to come out there and I just heard from Joe Slater that there's a possibility that you might...

K: Well, I probably won't have the time. But if I do it, you can ride out with me.

M: Well, he's going to get this award out there and they wanted me to say something at the time of the ceremony.

K: Well, if I can...

M: If you'll have your secretary let me know if you're going.

K: Absolutely.

M: Okay. And we might join up.

K: Jack, on the off chance that you may know the fellow, do you know a David Freeman who's worked on the energy problem for the Ford Foundation?

M: Yes, I do know him but very slightly.

K: Is he a good man?

M: I don't know him well enough to say. I heard his name -- Mac Bundy talked to me about it.

K: I'm seeing Mac on Monday. Let me raise it with him.

M: You raise it with him and see what he thinks. If you want me to get a check on him, I can.

K: Well, I'd appreciate it.

M: His name is Freeman.

K: David Freeman.

M: Yeah, I'll find out and I'll let you know.

K: Many thanks.

Jack McCloy /Mr. Kissinger

4

M: Now on this other business, the oil thing, if you're going to see Yemani, at least Jamison and one other thought it was extremely important that you talk to them, either on the phone or see them, before you saw him.

K: Well, frankly, I'm going to try to avoid seeing Yemani.

M: Okay.

K: But if I see him, I'll get in touch.

M: Get your secretary to get in touch with me and then I'll --

K: I'll get in touch with you and then you can recommend --

M: Either by a phone call because they seemed to think it was important. They emphasized with me this wasn't in connection with any negotiation or commercial aspect. They were thinking about the flow of oil in the future at reasonable prices.

K: I understand.

M: Okay.

K: Many thanks, Jack.

M: Anything else I can do for you?

K: Not immediately. You could think about the names for that Board I talked to you about.

M: Okay, I have been doing that. I'll be in touch with you.

K: Terrific, Jack.

M: Okay, fine.

wgh

TELCOM

Ken Rush (Dep Sec/State)/Mr. Kissinger

7:20 p.m., September 14, 1973

R: Henry, the telephone is so bad I can hardly hear you.

K: Well, that's all that wiretapping equipment we've got here.

R: Well, it must be because I have a terrible buzz on this telephone.

K: Ken, I just want to tell you that I've been talking to Moynihan in general about whether -- you know, what conditions he would be willing to come back here without any precise ideas.

R: Right.

K: And he's talking to his wife just in case you hear anything on the grape-vine.

R: Well, Henry, I had a call as a matter of fact from a Marilyn Berger

K: Yeah, but don't confirm anything.

R: Saying that the rumor was that he is going to be Under Secretary of State.

K: No, he's going to take your place.

R: (laughs) Well, I told her that I had not talked with you about this at all and there was nothing whatever to it.

K: Well, that is correct.

R: Good.

K: And certainly not Under Secretary of State. But before I make any moves I will discuss it with you. I am asking a lot of these people that are coming in -- you know, just to be able to calibrate who would be good for what job but that doesn't mean that they'll get that job.

R: Exactly, exactly. Well, Henry, there is a leak in your office somewhere that got to Marilyn Berger.

K: Well, I suspect it was a leak from Moynihan to somebody.

R: That could very well be.

DECLASSIFIED

Authentic

EC 12/95 8
BY R.NAR. Die 6.10.94

Ken Rush/Mr. Kissinger

2

K: Because that's not a position that I had ever conceived for him.

R: Well, I told Marilyn that you and I were not going to discuss personnel until after you were confirmed.

K: Just keep to that position, Ken.

R: I'll stick to that.

K: Good.

R: As a matter of fact, I won't reveal anything of course. But I wanted to knock this damn rumor down because it's coming out tomorrow.

K: Right. Well, I've knocked it down too.

R: Good. Fine, Henry.

K: But I just wanted you to be aware of this.

R: Well, I appreciate that very much. It's very helpful.

K: Bye.

R: Okay.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority E072658

By: D. NAR. DATED: 10/1/84

*

TELCONE

Bernard Gwertzman/Mr. Kissinger

7:33 p.m., September 14, 1973

G: One, I wanted to say how much we appreciated your presence the other
night.

K: I actually found it extremely helpful.

G: I wanted to apologize if you felt any rudeness from the fellows there.

K: Well, there were some short tempers but I really found it very helpful to clarify my thinking about press guys versus foreign service guys. And it steered me more towards the Foreign Service.

G: Well, that would be useful if that's helpful. I'm not sure which will be
in the end the better. The other thing, I'd like to write an article on
this MFN thing which is coming to a peak on Wednesday or so. Is there
anything you could say on-the-record about how important this is or
isn't.

K: I think it is a very important aspect of our entire foreign policy. And
you can say that on-the-record.

G: How would our relations with the Russians suffer?

K: Well, all the negotiations we've had with them over the three years has
had MFN as an important contribution on our side. And then therefore
cast out on the validity of the link long-term negotiation.

G: Yeah. So if it is turned down here, this would be considered that the
Administration can't produce what it promises essentially.

K: That's right. And it also affects the position of those who negotiated
their end of the deal. When what we are supposed to do doesn't happen.

G: Right. This compromise that's been talked about, is that a viable one?

K: Well, it is a barely tolerable one.

G: I mean, it's not off the ground in the committee but it's --

K: I don't know about that.

G: Are you going to testify on Tuesday or just meet with them?

K: Well, I probably won't be confirmed by Tuesday so I'll be meeting
them as a Presidential Assistant in a sort of Executive Session way.

DECLASSIFIED

Authentic
E.C. 12/25/8
BY NARAYAN, PUNE 6/1/84

*

2

G: And you'll be stressing this aspect of it?

K: Yeah.

G: You met with Meany today on that same subject?

K: No.

G: Oh, I see. There's a wire story I think we're printing tonight
speculating on that.

K: No. Well, it was mentioned but it was not the basic subject.

G: Was it more general?

K: Well, I felt that as Secretary-designate I should call on him.

G: I see. I must say, the hearing today was the most incredible thing I've ever sat through.

K: Really?

G: I won't recommend you watch it on television but why the Committee allowed this Nazi in there -- you know, there was a Nazi spokesman.

K: I didn't know that.

G: I don't think they realized his organization. It's called the National Youth Alliance. He ends up saying that because you're Jewish, it would not be in the best interests to the majority of White gentile Americans. Really incredible.

K: (laughter) I see gentile Americans but white gentile.

G: Well, because he has to separate out the real white men.

K: Isn't that fascinating.

G: There were 10 different people. You were attacked from 10 different viewpoints, including they had a black united front. It was a bizarre affair. No one takes it seriously. It shows you the variety of --

K: Well, I tell you, I have received more hate mail as a result of this.

G: Yeah, you told me that the other night.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12958
BY ORDER OF THE PRESIDENT, DATED 6/10/84

3

K: It is totally you are the people who killed our Lord, and how dare you try to govern us.

G: Yeah. It's a sobering thing to know the people that are in this country.

K: Strangely enough, I get almost no mail attacking policies. I get almost no Vietnam mail.

G: You got attacked for that expectingly today from Donald Frazier and the American Friends Committee.

K: Yeah but that I'd expect and that's fair enough. Did Don Frazier do it too?

G: With Frazier it was more of a strain, he was speaking for ADA and his thrust was that they should delay action until they get 4 commitments from the Administration, most of which you've already given them anyway. Things like you won't resume combat activity without Congressional approval.

K: Don Frazier basically is really a friend of mine, individually.

G: He disassociated himself from some of the other characters up there.

K: I guess he's got to say what the ADA has in mind.

G: Sure. The American Friends fellow had that same thing that Fulbright had saying May of 69 you would say if we're not out of Vietnam in 6 months you can tear down the White House gate or something like that.

K: Baloney, that I never said.

G: ... Liberties Lobby was in there and they talked about some secret meeting you had in Woodstock, Vermont. I don't know what that was.

K: I'll tell you what it was. Have you ever heard of the Bilderberg Conference?

G: No.

K: The Bilderberg Conference is called annually by Prince Bernhardt (sp?) of The Netherlands and it has such wild radicals as Jack McCloy, David Rockefeller. You know, it is so establishment that I don't go to it anymore.

G: (laughter)

K: But I used to attend it. It met in the United States. It meant a lot to them for me to spend a morning with them. I went up a Saturday afternoon and

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Authentic 05-7558

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4

K: (cont'd) left on Sunday afternoon.

G: And this has now become in the folklore --

K: In the folklore, it has become an international meeting. It is in effect, you take the top people of the Council on Foreign Relations, take the Board of Director of all of the Councils on Foreign Relations around the world -- so establishment. The head of FIAT is part

G: ... reactions rather moderate. They just took an isolationist. Their criticism of you is you are too internationalist. It was in a sense ludicrous. What appalled me was that the only Senators who were there were Sparkman, Aiken and McGovern was in and out. They never bothered to say anything because they were in a rush to end this thing.

K: Yeah. But Marcy told me ahead of time that this would happen because they wanted it over with.

G: Yes, they did. In fact, it was very quick. But I gather you're not going to run into any trouble Monday or Tuesday. I don't know what they'll ask you Monday.

K: Well, Tuesday I won't meet with them.

G: I'll be astonished if there's any hang-up.

K: That's my impression.

G: Right. Okay.

DECLARED
AUTHORITY EC 1245 &
BY J.P. NAR. D.G. 6/64

TELCORN

Prof. George Kennan

8:55 p. m., September 14, 1973

HK: George, how are you? I'm sorry I couldn't get back to you earlier.

GK: Well, it's very good of you to call me back at all because I know what your life must be like. I just wanted to tell you that I'm back in this country after 5 months abroad.

HK: Wonderful.

GK: I was recently in Leningrad about 2 or 3 weeks ago and had a very interesting few days there. What I did want most importantly to say to you is that I think you're absolutely right about the dissidence.

HK: Aren't you nice.

GK: . . not to be carried away with this. This is a hysteria of the western press.

HK: In total hyprocrisy.

GK: Not only that but nothing as yet has actually happened to either Sofarov (sp?) or to Soldzamechen (sp?).

HK: Well, then you know what would have happened to them under Stalin.

GK: Exactly. But you know both of them are also driving it very unwisely hard and they have enabled the regime to split the whole Russian intellectual and esthetic community so that a lot of the most important other Russian intellectuals have turned against them. And I think it rather dangerous for us to take up their cause when such people as Hutchateryon (sp?) and the great composers and others are not going along with them.

HK: And when it isn't clear what they can describe exactly what it is that they want.

GK: That is correct.

HK: Especially, Zakarov (sp). What is it that he wants the Soviets to do?

GK: I know and actually many of the issues that they have with them are simply ones that they themselves provoked. So I just wanted you to know that I'm strongly with you. And I don't think in any case that it's right for a great government such as ours to try to adjust its foreign policy in order to work internal changes in another country.

DECLASSIFIED

Authentic EC 12958
BY RAR. DUE 6/16/84

Prof. George Kennan

2

HK: Well, I'm so glad you are of that view.

GK: Exactly what you said before the Senate Committee, I said a week ago to the Norwegian Ten Club plus some of the diplomats in Scandinavia. I said you must realize that this is not the only thing that is at stake in our relations with them. We have also the nuclear weaponry and things of that sort and we can't sacrifice the whole relationship for these people. I just wanted you to know you have this support. I am coming down to Washington next Tuesday if you're not testifying that day and had any time to see me, I'd be glad to drop in but I certainly don't want to press it because --

HK: I'm testifying that day on MFN. Are you staying overnight?

GK: Well, I could. I'm coming down on Tuesday. I have written a letter today to the New York Times on MFN.

HK: Why don't we try to have breakfast on Wednesday. Tuesday is going to be very hard for me.

GK: I'll see what I can work out and I'll be in touch with you at the beginning of next week.

HK: Good.

GK: Henry, I just can't tell you how pleased I am about what is going on with yourself. The funny thing is that three days before this change was announced, I gave an interview to the Scandinavian press and said that the vital thing now is to have in the circumstances to have foreign policy in some way transferred back to the State Department. And also expressed my great confidence in yourself.

HK: Well, I'm going to do my very best and I hope to profit from your advice.

GK: All I can say is I'll give you any help I can. It's a tremendous job and it's also worse going to be back there in the State Department in some ways than where you've been but in other ways it's better.

HK: Well, I think if I can make the State Department again the sort of place it was when you headed the Policy Planning staff or at least those areas you had to do with, then it will be worth while.

GK: Well, if you get a convenient chance, I would be glad to talk with you at any time.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: EC 12958

BY GONAR, Dec 6/84

*

TELCORN

Amb. Ingersoll (Japan)/Mr. Kissinger

9:04 p. m., September 14, 1973

K: Bob, I just want you to know I'm thinking of you.

I: You are (laughs). I thought you had other things on your mind.

K: No, I've got you on my mind. I'm not pressing you but I just wanted
you to know that my views are still what they were.

I: Henry, I had a long talk with George. He is going to talk to you on
Monday. I would like to come and see you again on Friday or Saturday
if that's convenient for you.

K: Sure.

I: Are you available on Friday or Saturday?

K: For this purpose, yes.

I: All right. Well, George will talk to you and then I may talk to you
again in the middle of the week and I'll plan to come in Friday or
Saturday.

K: George is more judicious than I am, just keep that in mind.
I believe in doing things with enthusiasm.

I: Well, I agree and I am enthusiastic with reservations and I would like
to talk those over with you.

K: No, you come and talk to me. I think it's important.

I: Fine, I'll be in next weekend.

K: Terrific. See you then.

DECLASSIFIED
Authentic EC 12658
BY DONAR. DEC 6/16/94

TELCORN - Henry A. Kissinger Robert McNamara

September 14, 1973

K: Hello.

McN: Hello, Henry.

K: Bob, I had a note from Moynihan, now he doesn't want to do it.

McN: Well he is right here, I told him, he is listening in. I told him that in his interest, your interest, and the country's interest he just had to reconsider and he had to do it.

K: That is what I think. Because most of his arguments are really ridiculous except that of his family,

McN: Well he said he will call his wife and talk to her.

K: You know the fact that the president wants him to stay, the President doesn't know what I have in mind.

McN: Yeah.

K: And between him and me we are both going to do things which the President will regret. That is why I want him to back here.

McN: Yeah, I very much agree, Henry and I told him that, and I don't want to speak for him. He is listening now and he listens and I think he will reconsider.

K: He is going to give me more trouble than all of the other Assistant secretaries put together. [Laughter on both ends] And that is why I want him.

MCN: I agree Henry.

K: I need a few men with inspiration and faith.

McN: It builds up toward that critical mass. I told him it wasn't just Latin America it was the whole question of foreign policy State Department really in the sense the government. And you just got to get a critical national state to make this thing move forward.

K: And also that is right, right and to show to the Latins that we have a man of inspiration and to show to our people that the dedicated people are willing to make sacrifices as they did in the early Kennedy period.

McN: And that is what I meant by the -------- He contributes far beyond Latin America. It is that latter point that is going to help you get others and help the government get others and attract others.

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Authority: E0 12/95 8

By: SAR: Dic 6/10/95

HAK - Mcnamara

-2-

K: I have one of the best Foreign Service officers available in that job now.

MCN: UMHUM.

K: He is doing a good job, but he is not doing a great job.

MCN: Yeah, Well I just strongly agree with you I already told that to Pat. He says for me to tell you that I xxx raise the subject and he doesn't accept.

K: I know and you check with me first.

MCN: Well I will keep out of this.

K: Good. See if Pat wants to come in around 6 or 6:30.

MCN: Yes, he said he would be in therezz around six.

K: Good wonderful, good bye.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E.O. 1258
By: J.N. ARNOLD, D.C. 6/10/64

*

TELCONE

Fred Brisson/Mr. Kissinger

10:00 a.m. 9/15/73

B: Well, we're so proud of you Henry

K: Fred, aren't you nice.

B: I think the way you handled yourself during these hearings--with all these --old bastards, really it is incredible you know, we watched it every night --it was on channel 22 in California and Henry--you are going to be the greatest Secretary of State that this nation has ever known. All I call tell you is you got the guts of a lion. We were hoping yesterday --had to come to see the President--Nancy was re-elected as you probably know for four more years and the President was very nice and he took quite of bit of his time actually. We missed you by 10 minutes, I think.

K: That's right. I came back at 3:00 p.m. --we

B: We were there early--I think at 11:30 or 12:00 and you had just gone out. Any chance of having dinner tonight?

K: Can I call you this afternoon--

B: They don't finish their meetings till around 7:00 7:30--so if convenient at 8:30 or 9:00--

K: Let me call you around 3:00 or 4:00

B: 3:00 and 4:00--I'll be back because I m having a meeting out at the Kennedy Center--

K: I'll call between 3:00 and 4:00

B: Yeh, it'll be lovely if we can see you--we'll be going back tomorrow night-

K: Marvelous--

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12958
By NAR. Dae 6/15/64