BRINKLEY: MR. KISSINGER WOULD YOU START AT THE BEGINNING AND TELL US WHAT HAPPENED.

KISSINGER: WELL BEFORE WE GET INTO THE PAST LET ME EXPRESS MY CONGRATULATIONS TO GEORGE BUSH. I THINK HE'S AN OUTSTANDING CANDIDATE AND WOULD BE AN OUTSTANDING VICE PRESIDENTIAL CHOICE. I COULD OBSERVE HIM IN HIGH OFFICE IN TWO ADMINISTRATIONS WHERE HE PERFORMED HIS ASSIGNMENTS WITH EXTRAORDINARY DISTINCTION AND I THINK HE'S A GREAT PATRIOT AND A GREAT ASSET TO THIS COUNTRY. THE ISSUE OF PRESIDENT FORD JOINING THE TICKET WAS PUT IN A SPECIAL CATEGORY THEREFORE ONE SHOULD NOT LOOK AT GEORGE BUSH IN ANY COMPARATIVE WAY. IF A FORMER PRESIDENT DOES AGREE TO BECOME A VICE PRESIDENT WAS ALWAYS AN EVENT THAT WAS SO UNUSUAL THAT ONE IT REQUIRED SPECIAL CONSIDERATION. BUT I DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING WHAT HAPPENED. WHAT I KNOW IS A SEQUENCE OF EVENTS SOMETHING LIKE THIS ON TUESDAY NIGHT A NUMBER OF PEOPLE HIGH IN THE REAGAN HIGHERACHY TOLD ME THAT THEY WERE EXTREMELY INTERESTED EXPLORING WHETHER MR. FORD WOULD AGREE TO JOIN THE TICKET. THEY UNDOUBTEDLY MADE SEPARATE APPROACHES ALSO THEY ASKED ME WHETHER I WOULD BE PREPARED TO TALK TO PRESIDENT FORD. I SAID YES IF IT COMES UP IN A NORMAL COURSE OF CONVERSATION. AND THAT I WOULD CALL ON PRESIDENT FORD AFTER MY ADDRESSING THE REPUBLICAN CONVENTION. AND THAT THAT HAD BEEN SCHEDULED ANYWAY. THEN VISITED PRESIDENT FORD.

BRINKLEY: THIS WAS AFTER YOUR SPEECH TUESDAY NIGHT?

KISSINGER: AFTER THE SPEECH TUESDAY NIGHT. AND WE SAT AND TALKED JOINED BY OUR WIVES AND TWO OR THREE OTHERS. FIRST ALONE, FIRST HE AND I ALONE AND THEN THE LARGER GROUP AND THE ONLY ISSUE REALLY WAS THIS: PRESIDENT FORD HAD BEEN VICE PRESIDENT, THEN HAD BEEN PRESIDENT AND HE KNOWS HOW COMPLEX IT IS TO BE VICE PRESIDENT AND ONLY MOTIVE PRESIDENT FORD COULD HAVE TO JOIN THE TICKET WAS TO HELP GOVERNOR REAGAN IN SOLVING AND OVERCOMING A NATIONAL EMERGENCY. ALL HIS PERSONAL MOTIVES WOULD TEND TO BE AGAINST IT AND ALL HIS EXPERIENCE WOULD TEND TO BE AGAINST IT AT THIS STAGE OF HIS CAREER. SO THEN THE QUESTION WAS THEN HE DECIDED HE WANTED TO SLEEP ON IT. AND ONLY THE NEXT MORNING.

BRINKLEY: WHAT TIME WAS THIS TUESDAY NIGHT ROUGHLY?

KISSINGER: WELL THIS WAS ABOUT 3AM IN THE MORNING

BRINKLEY: WEDNESDAY MORNING.

KISSINGER: WEDNESDAY MORNING. SO THEN WHAT EVERYBODY HAS TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT I'M CERTAIN

**KISSINGER:** THAT GIVEN ANOTHER 24 HOURS THE OUTCOME WOULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT. BUT ALL OF THESE DISCUSSIONS WERE COMPRESSED IN A TIME FRAME BETWEEN 7 IN THE MORNING AND MIDNIGHT BY PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD THREE OR FOUR HOURS SLEEP. AND I TOLD SOMEBODY WHO WAS SITTING IN FORD'S OUTER OFFICE YOU WHEN YOU READ HISTORY BOOK: YOU THINK GREAT EVENTS OCCUR WITH PEOPLE CONSTANTLY MEETING AND THINKING IN FACT THEY OCCUR IN 10 MINUTES SNATCHES BETWEEN 4 HOURS OF WAITING. AND SO EVERYBODY HAS TO UNDERSTAND THIS. FORD WAS GOING AROUND TO MANY MEETINGS...

GOVERNOR REAGAN WAS GOING AROUND TO MANY MEETINGS SO TO ASSEMBLE THE PRINCIPLES ALWAYS TOOK HOURS. BUT THERE WASN'T REALLY ONE ISSUE. WAS IT POSSIBLE TO DESCRIBE A POSITION FOR A VICE PRESIDENT THAT RESPECTED THE CONSTITUTIONAL HISTORICAL PERIODIVES OF THE PRESIDENT AND YET WOULD ENABLE HIM TO SAY TO HIMSELF THAT HE WAS MAKING A CONTRIBUTION TO OUR COUNTRY OTHER THAN JUST PARTICIPATING IN THE CAMPAIGN WHICH HE'S WILLING TO DO ANYHOW. THAT IS A COMPLEX PROBLEM BECAUSE IT'S 150 YEARS OR 200 YEARS OF CLASSIFIED HISTORY IT'S NEVER BEEN ABLE TO BE DEFINING PROPERLY. SO A NUMBER OF GOVERNOR REAGAN'S ASSOCIATES AND A NUMBER OF PRESIDENT FORD'S ASSOCIATES OF WHOM I WAS ONE MET. WAS NOT THE SPOKESMAN, ALAN GREENSPAN WAS THE SPOKESMAN FOR THE FORD PEOPLE.

**BRINKLEY:** WHERE ARE WE NOW...WEDNESDAY MORNING?

**KISSINGER:** WE ARE NOW WEDNESDAY AFTERNOON. AND THIS ABSTRACT PROBLEM WAS PUT BEFORE THE REAGAN PEOPLE. I WANT TO SAY HERE AND NOW THE REAGAN GROUP REMAINED WITH DIGNITY, CONCERN, INTEREST FOR THE COUNTRY RESPECT FOR THE OFFICE THAT THEY ARE ASPIRING TO FILL AND COULD NOT HAVE CONDUCTED THEMSELVES IN A MORE PROPER THOUGHTFUL AND SERIOUS MANNER. SO THERE WAS NO TENSION WHAT SO EVER. AS IT HAPPENED HOWEVER THEY HAD TO GO BACK TO GOVERNOR REAGAN WE HAD TO GO BACK TO FORD AND TO MATCH THESE SCHEDULE ALWAYS MENT THAT IT TOOK A NUMBER OF HOURS.

**BRINKLEY:** SOMEBODY WAS ALWAYS AWAY DOING SOMETHING.

**KISSINGER:** IT VERY RARELY HAPPENED THAT EVERYBODY THAT WAS INVOLVED WAS IN THE BUILDING IN SAME TIME. SO THEN THIS WENT ON THROUGH THE AFTERNOON IN AN AMICABLE WAY ON A DIFFICULT SUBJECT. THERE'S NO ONE POINT IN SUPERABLE AND NO ONE POINT FULLY SETTLE EITHER. THEN GOVERNOR REAGAN AND PRESIDENT FORD MET AND HAD AN AMICABLE CONVERSATION I WAS NOT PRESENT AT THAT. KNOWING PRESIDENT FORD'S PROCLIVITIES WITH RESPECT TO ME. AS SOON AS HE WAS OVER..THIS MEETING WAS OVER UNKNOWN TO PRESIDENT FORD I WENT TO SEE THE TOP REAGAN PEOPLE AND SAID I WANTED TO MAKE

KISSINGER: THERE SHOULD BE NO DISCUSSION OF PERSONALITIES AS PART OF THIS ARRANGEMENT
BRINKLEY: SUCH AS YOURSELF.

KISSINGER: SUCH AS MYSELF AND IN MY JUDGEMENT ANYBODY ELSE AND THAT WE SHOULD PUT THAT TO
THE JOBS TO BE PERFORMED AND THAT WE SHOULD MEET AGAIN ON THE JOBS TO BE
PERFORMED AND THAT I COULD USE MY FULL INFLUENCE TO BRING THAT ABOUT. I DID THAT
ON MY OWN WITHOUT DISCUSSING IT WITH PRESIDENT FORD. I THEN TOLD PRESIDENT
FORD THE SAME THING AND HE AGREED WITH THAT COMPLETELY. SO BY THEN WE WENT
BACK TO THE JOBS TO BE PERFORMED. BY THEN WE WERE ALSO AT 8PM THERE HAD
BEEN TELEVISION AT 8:30 at night.

BRINKLEY: THAT'S WEDNESDAY NIGHT.

KISSINGER: WEDNESDAY NIGHT. SO THERE WERE TELEVISION INTERVIEWS. THERE HAD BEEN A
CONGRESSIONAL DELEGATION CALLING ON FORD THAT WAS NOT EXACTLY RETICENT IN
EXPRESSING ITS VIEWS ALL OVER THE CONVENTION FLOOR AND SINCE WE'RE CALLING A
DEADLINE WAS DEVELOPING BUT NOBODY HAD SAW IT. FORD WOULD HAVE LIKED TO HAVE
THE NIGHT TO SLEEP ON IT. IT WASN'T POSSIBLE THEN ANYMORE TO HAVE THE DETAILED
DISCUSSIONS THAT WERE NEEDED. AND AT THAT POINT IT SORT OF PETERED OUT.
THERE'S GOOD WILL REALLY ON BOTH SIDES. AND WITH A SORT OF A SAD FEELING ON MY
SIDE IT REALLY THAT IT WAS ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT WHERE I KNOW JOURNALISTS
ASSUME THERE WAS ALWAYS GREAT CONFRONTATIONS AND BIG ISSUES AND PHILOSOPHICAL
DISCUSSIONS. IT WAS QUITE LITERALLY SOMETHING THAT ANOTHER FOUR HOURS OF
DISCUSSION COULD HAVE SETTLED AND NOT TO MAKE A TREATY. YOU DON'T MAKE A TREATY
BETWEEN THE PRESIDENT AND THE VICE PRESIDENT YOU CAN'T INFORCE IT ANYWAY BUT
THERE HAS TO BE SOME DISCUSSION OF HOW THINGS WILL WORK BECAUSE WITH THE BEST
INTENTIONS IN THE WORLD IF THAT ISN'T UNDERSTOOD IN THE BEGINNING THE PRESSURES
THE JOB WILL CREATE THEIR OWN MOMENTUM AND FORD DID NOT WANT TO BE JUST USED
IN THE ELECTION HE WANTED TO CONTRIBUTE TO ________________. AND I KNOW HE'S (
TO WORK HIS HEART OUT IN THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN AND I HAVE EXPRESSED MY STRONG
VIEWS ABOUT THE NATIONAL INTEREST IN THIS MATTER. I SUPPORTED GOVERNOR REAGAN
BEFORE THIS HAPPENED I CONTINUE TO SUPPORT HIM. I THINK IT'S A STRONG OUT
STANDING TIEKET THAT HAS BEEN CREATED. AND THIS IS AS ACCURATE ACCOUNT OF EVEN
AS I CAN GIVE.

PAGE 5

**KI SINGER:** KNOWING PRESIDENT FORD I WOULD BE AMAZED IF HE DID NOT EXPRESS WHAT HE'S EXPRESSING ON EVERY TELEVISION WHICH PEOPLE HE THINKS ARE QUALIFIED FOR HIGH OFFICE. IN CLUDING MYSELF. BUT THAT YOU CAN SEE ON EVERY TELEVISION. PROGRAM THAT INCLUDES HIM. BUT THAT WAS NOT A CONDITION. IT WAS NOT THE BREAKDOWN AND I HAD PERSONALLY ON MY OWN AUTHORITY TOLD THE REAGAN GROUP THAT UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES COULD THAT BE PART OF AN ARRANGEMENT BECAUSE IT WOULD BE IN APPROPRIATE. I THEN SAID THE SAME THING TO PRESIDENT FORD AND I KNOW PRESIDENT FORD SAID THE SAME THING TO GOVERNOR REAGAN. AND THIS WAS 5 HOURS BEFORE THE FINAL FAILURE OF THE DISCUSSIONS SO THAT WAS NOT AN ISSUE.

**PRINKLEY:** PRESIDENT FORD DID NOT ASK FOR THE RIGHT TO MAKE ANY PARTICULAR APPOINTMENTS.

**KISSINGER:** THAT IS CORRECT. DID I WANT TO KNOW HOW THE STAFFS WERE GOING TO BE COMPOSED AND WHOM THEY WERE GOING TO WORK FOR AND IN WHAT WAY. BECAUSE THAT'S ONE OF THE BIG PROBLEMS SIN THE WHITE HOUSE HE REMEMBERED HIS EXPERIENCES WITH GOVERNOR ROEKER FELLER WHO WAS A CLOSE PERSONAL FRIEND OF HIS AND THE DIFFICULTY OF EVEN THERE OF MEASURING THE TWO THINGS TOGETHER.

**PRINKLEY:** WHY WASN'T THIS STARTED SOONER SO THERE WOULD MIGHT HAVE BEEN TIME TO GET IT DOWN.

**KISSINGER:** I AGAIN WANT TO MAKE IT ABSOLUTELY CLEAR THAT AMONG THE CLASSICAL VICE PRELIDENTIAL CANDIDATES AMONG THE PEOPLE YOU WOULD THINK OF AS VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES GEORGE BUSH IS AN ABSOLUTELY OUTSTANDING CHOICE. FORD IS NOT THE NORMAL VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE. HE HAD BEEN PRESIDENT AND IT WOULD HAVE BEEN AN EMERGENCY MEASURE. WHY IT WASN'T STARTED EARLIER I DON'T KNOW. I JUST CAN'T SPECULATE ON IT. THE WAY IT WORKED OUT YOU COULD ARGUE THAT IF IT HAD STARTED EARLIER IT WOULD HAVE Succeeded. YOU COULD ALSO ARGUE IT REALLY NEEDED EVERYBODY IN THE SAME BUILDING TO GET ANY REAL MOMENTUM.

**PRINKLEY:** WHO ORIGINATED THE IDEA OF TRYING TO PERSUADE PRESIDENT FORD WAS IT MR. REAGAN?

**KISSINGER:** I'M CERTAIN IT WAS GOVERNOR REAGAN. IN MY KNOWLEDGE IT WAS THREE OF THE CLOSEST ASSOCIATES OF REAGAN. I MEAN OF MY PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE BUT OBVIOUSLY IT CAME FROM GOVERNOR REAGAN.

**PRINKLEY:** TO YOU THINK IT WAS A MISTAKE TO LET THE GROUP OF CONGRESSMAN WHO CAME AND THEN WENT OUT AND STARTED SPREADING RUMORS AND REPORTS?

you do that between A PRESIDENT AND A VICE PRESIDENT WHO'S GOING TO ENFORCE IT. FINALLY
IT HAS TO COME TO CAN THESE TWO GENTLEMAN WORK TOGETHER. I ACTUALLY CAME TO
THE CONCLUSION THEY COULD HAVE WORKED WITH EACH OTHER VERY WELL AND I THINK
THEY WILL WORK WITH EACH OTHER DURING THE CAMPAIGN VERY WELL.

ERINKLEY: WAS YOU HAVE BEEN IN VAMINGTON SOME TIME DO YOU THINK IT IS REALLY POSSIBLE
FOR THE VICE PRESIDENT TO DO THAT A SERIOUS SIGNIFICANT ROLL IN THE GOVERNMENTAL
PROCESS INCLUDING APPOINTMENT AND DECISION MAKING AND SO ON?

KISSINGER: VERY HARD VERY DIFFICULT. ADVISORY YES. BUT AS ERICUS PARTICIPATION
ON A CONTINUING BASIS ON DECISION IS VERY HARD TO DO.

ERINKLEY: PRESIDENT CAN GIVE AWAY HIS OFFICE BEFORE HE WINS IT.

KISSINGER: WELL WE CAN'T GIVE IT AWAY AFTER WE WINS IT EXCEPT AFTER THAT'S THE PROGRAM

ERINKLEY: SO ANOTHER WHAT WOULD YOU SAY YOUR HOURS WOULD HAVE DONE IT.

KISSINGER: I THINK OVERNIGHT WOULD HAVE DONE IT. IF WE HAD HAD TILL NOON TODAY
AND IF EVERYONE HAD HAD A GOOD NIGHT'S SLEEP AND SAT DOWN AND SAID NOW WHAT
ARE THE THREE THINGS WE REALLY NEED TO DO IT WOULD HAVE BEEN DONE.

ERINKLEY IF IT HAD STARTED A DAY SOONER?

KISSINGER: PROBABLY IT WOULD HAVE WORKED EXCEPT THERE WAS GOOD WILL ON EVERYONE'S SIDE AND
THERE'S GOOD WILL NOW.