RADIO TV REPORTS, INC.

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FOR NBC TV

PROGRAM Today Show Special Edition

STATION WRC TV
NBC Network

DATE April 25, 1980

9:10 AM

CITY Washington, DC

SUBJECT An Interview with Dr. Henry Kissinger

TOM BROKAW: ...Sitting with me now, the very familiar figure, Henry Kissinger, former Secretary of State.

D'you think it was a good idea for the President to try what he tried?

DR. HENRY KISSINGER: I suppose the effort -- I think that we had to demonstrate that our patience wasn't unlimited.

BROKAW: Have you expressed this to the President personally?

KISSINGER: I called the President this morning and told him that I would an -- that I would support what he did and that I would urge unity on the American people.

BROKAW: Can you share with us any of the details about why the effort failed.

KISSINGER: No, I -- I really don't know -- my understanding is that two helicopters were disabled or had mechanical difficulties and that then the President decided to call off the operation.

BROKAW: But if you were going to go in and try to rescue 50 American hostages and you have just two of your choppers go down -- and I don't have all the information available to me, either --- it seems to me that you don't leave much of a margin of error in that kind of an operation.

KISSINGER: Yes, but it is a tricky operation and you inherently don't have much margin of error when you do something like this.

APR 30 1980

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-2-

BROKAW: Given what you know about the situation; here we have the American Embassy in the middle of a crowded city, 150 armed militants who are willing to die for their cause -- they've said it again and again and again -- hostages, so far as we know being held in close quarters under the guns [words unintelligible.] Isn't that an extraordinarily high risk operation?

KISSINGER: I don't know the details. All I can say is it seems to me that when the President of the United States makes a decision of this nature he must have looked at all of these questions and he must have decided that the risk was worth taking. And I believe that this endless waiting period through which we have gone had also its major risks for the hostages. And I think that the demonstration that the United States' patience is not endless; it's going to probably speed up the release, give some caution to the Soviets. And I would have to say that unless somebody demonstrates overwhelmingly the opposite, that this was a reasonable decision by a man who must be under great, painful necessities at this moment.

BROKAW: Why wouldn't he share that decision with certain key members of Congress -- especially given Section 3 of the War Powers Act. Now you happen to be an authority on Section 3 of the War Powers Act -- you may not see it the same way that, say, Frank Church does, but why wouldn't he share that with certain key members?

KISSINGER: As I understand it, Section 3 of the War Powers Act says "wherever possible." Now in an operation of this kind I do not believe that one can take the risk of a leak. And I would say that it's reasonable to interpret "wherever possible" to mean that this is not a circumstances where it would have been possible without jeopardizing the safety of the hostages.

BROKAW: Now, Dr. Kissinger, without jeopardizing the possibility of a leak; members of the White House staff obviously knew about it; members of the Defense Department knew about it. Why shouldn't the elected representatives of the people on a co-equal branch of the government, representing the Intelligence Committee, or the Armed Services Committee, or the Foreign Relations Committee be informed about it on a very select basis? And be asked their counsel as well.

KISSINGER: Because they are in a different position from the Executive Branch. I don't know how many people knew about it in the Executive Branch. I don't know what consultation took place. I learned about it this morning on television. So I am not...

BROKAW: Would you have done [?] it the same way?

KISSINGER: I don't know whether I would have done it the

-3-

same way because I don't know the details. But I have felt since
the beginning that we should have taken a more affirmative [sic]
position from the beginning and raised the risks for the Iranians
earlier. And I, therefore, cannot feel that what was done now
was a wrong calculation unless facts appear that I'm just not
familiar with.

I'm talking about the fact was the President reasonable
in attempting a rescue operation. I think he was. This is the
sort of thing that if it succeeds you're a genius and if it fails,
everybody picks you apart.

And I think that what will help the hostages best now
is that the American people are united; that there is no nagging
and second guessing on that -- on this operation. And that one
recognizes that there's only one man who can run these crises
at any one moment and that's the President.

BROKAW: But at some point someone must pay the price
for the failure.

KISSINGER: Yes and no.

I think there were some -- there have been some fundamental
things that I have -- that have disquieted me about the handling of
the hostage situation. I've said so publicly. But I would not get
-- say that the tactics of one rescue operation lend themselves to
that.

BROKAW: I don't want to exacerbate -- and I genuinely mean this -- I know people will be watching with their own set of tensions this already tense situation -- but you said a moment ago that this kind of operation would give the Russians pause. Seems to me as a layman in this area, that it will do just the opposite because it has been, in effect, botched. It is a failure. It will divide the country even more, even though we're seeing people saying today let's rally behind the President, but already people are being critical of it. Why not make it look as if we are going in several different directions?

KISSINGER: Well, whether it unites -- whether it divides
the country or not depends partly on us. I have the impression
that the Soviets do not want military action at their doorstep;
that they have their plateful. And I think that it may bring home
to them the necessity of bringing about a peaceful -- doing more
for a peaceful resolution of this conflict. The worst situation
to be in is to wait indefinitely for the decisions of a group of
people in Tehran who have so many of their internal problems that
they can make American hostages the plaything forever. And we
have to bring this matter to some sort of head.

(cc)

-4-

BROKAW: Well, in the case of the Pueblo, we left our American seamen, our naval personnel in North Korea until the situation just simmered down and eventually we were able to get a resolution by making a kind of rhetorical apology which we immediately withdrew.

KISSINGER: First of all, I think if you analyze what happened at the time of the Pueblo, you had an election in which the incumbent was defeated and in which somebody who had a reputation of a tough Cold Warrior, namely Richard Nixon, came in and the North Koreans settled it before he could bring matters to a head after his inauguration. I think this had as much to do with it as simply waiting. Simply waiting runs great risks.

BROKAW: And so do rescue efforts, it turns out.

KISSINGER: So do rescue efforts. There are no good -- if...

BROKAW: No easy choices.

KISSINGER: If this were easy, anybody could be president.

BROKAW: What about the reaction of the American allies? It has been ambivalent, at best, I think it is fair to say, about what has been going on in Europe. But this week, the Common Market nations did go into lockstep with the United States in terms of the economic sanctions, hoping that that would head off military action. They step in with the President, they agree to do what he asks of them, and then they find, much to their surprise, that there is a form of military action taken anyway, without any fore-knowledge on their part.

KISSINGER: I've just been in Europe and I've talked to many of the leaders involved. My guess would be that they are extremely unhappy. And that they feel that the timing was probably unfortunate. This is my guess. I have no knowledge based on my conversations with them.

On the other hand, the basic problem, as long as we convey to the Iranians that there -- that we're divided, that there's hesitation, that they can play out their domestic drama in which, in effect, the militants there are trying to humiliate us and push the revolution into a radical pro-Soviet, or at any rate radical anti-American direction -- as long as that continues we -- they have no motive for settling.

I think the Europeans -- these are Americans that are hostages there -- and no foreign country can have the same interest in releasing our people as Americans. I think it isn't helping us with our allies. I have to be frank about this. On the other hand, our allies have not really rushed to the barricades exactly.

-5-

The decision they took was, in effect, to wait a month before they took another decision.

BROKAW: Senator Moynihan said today it's hard to believe that they could do less than what they've done up to this point.

KISSINGER: Well, I have some understanding for their problems, and I think we are laying off too many of our own responsibilities on them. But since they cannot, for a variety of reasons -- or have not taken a great many actions -- their standing and complaining is not the most elevating.

BROKAW: Very briefly. You talked with the President. Can you describe for us his spirit this morning?

KISSINGER: I thought he seemed calm and determined. And you know I've been critical of the President but I think -- in some respects -- but I think at this moment we need unity and support and we have to convey that we're a determined people.

BROKAW: Dr. Henry Kissinger, former Secretary of State, who talked to the President this morning, offering his support for the situation -- the very difficult situation that the whole country faces.