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JOHN MCLAUGHLIN'S "ONE ON ONE"

**GUEST:** FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE HENRY KISSINGER
**SUBJECT:** TERRORISM

**TAPED:** FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 14, 2001

**BROADCAST:** WEEKEND OF SEPTEMBER 15-16, 2001

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THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Attack one, attack all. The United States and its allies have closed ranks swiftly against the international terrorist threat, and attack one is an attack against all.

We're broadcasting from Europe in this program. Along with thousands of others, we were turned back in mid-flight over the Atlantic after the events of Tuesday.

How long will allied unity last? What can NATO do to deter terrorism? We'll ask Dr. Henry Kissinger, also stranded in Germany, one on one.

ANNOUNCER: Imagine a world where we're not diminishing resources, we're growing them. Ethanol: a cleaner burning fuel made from corn. ADM: The nature of what's to come.

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ANNOUNCER: Brought to you in part by the Philip Morris family of companies -- Kraft Foods, Philip Morris USA, Miller Brewing.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Dr. Kissinger, Congress convenes on Wednesday, and it is said that Congress will seek a declaration of war against terrorism. Do you believe Congress will do so, and do you think it's a good idea?

MR. KISSINGER: I think it's a good idea. I don't think it's essential, one way or the other, as long as we conduct a war against terrorism. And the Congress should make clear that it is fully behind us, which legal instrument they use --

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Against whom will such a declaration be delivered?

MR. KISSINGER: The question of against whom to deliver it is secondary. It must be delivered against all organizations that emphasize international terrorism, and at this moment primarily against bin Laden. But there may be other groups like this, and our intelligence services, the intelligence services of our allies ought to be able to identify them, because they have to have these requirements: they must have a substantial organization, they must have cells that operate in the United States, they must have large funds, and they must have a home base, and there are not that many that would meet those requirements.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Must they all have state support? Must they have state support in the instance of the horrendous acts of last Tuesday?

MR. KISSINGER: An act like the one of last Tuesday cannot be done unless you have a home base.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: And the home base must be tolerated?

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MR. KISSINGER: The home base must tolerate it. It must at least give them enough protection so that they don't have to concentrate on their own security.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you think Iran should be attacked if --

MR. KISSINGER: I don't know whether they're the home base.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: -- if it is the home base?

MR. KISSINGER: I think that any country that furnished the home base must run the risk that it will be attacked and that certainly the terrorists will be attacked.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Are you talking about economic attack, the leverage of an embargo, sanctions? Or are you talking about something in the military theater?

MR. KISSINGER: If we can identify who did this, it should attack military attacks.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you think NATO members will support such activity, especially if it takes the form of a military operation?

MR. KISSINGER: I don't know. I think most of them will, especially in the early stages.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: So we're talking about a multilateral military operation --

MR. KISSINGER: I'm not saying they'll participate.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: They'll support?

MR. KISSINGER: Yes.

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MR. MCLAUGHLIN: As a matter of form, rather than as a matter of reality?

MR. KISSINGER: No, I think we have a lot of support in Europe on this one.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: You mean that they could actually become involved?

MR. KISSINGER: First of all, I don't know who did it. And I'm in no position to say what kind of action should be taken. I said we should be ready to take military action. The primary requirement now has to be that the terrorist organizations that specialize in international terrorism must be put on the defensive.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: These horrendous acts of last Tuesday have been described as acts of war. What follows from that? It is not just a matter of rhetoric, is it? There are certain consequences of an act being an act of war.

MR. KISSINGER: We have to understand this is an attack on the territorial United States. Nothing like that has taken place from a foreign power, and certainly not from a country outside the western hemisphere. It will probably have killed more Americans than the attack on Pearl Harbor, and these are civilian Americans who were not military personnel. They attacked our -- the Pentagon, and they undoubtedly had some other target in Washington they were going to attack with the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania. So this is an attack on the territorial United States, and this is, therefore, a war that must be won.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, an act of war normally involves an invasion of some kind, an incursion --

MR. KISSINGER: But this is a new form of war.

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MR. MCLAUGHLIN: It's a new form of war? And you think it satisfies the definition of war, and it's not a matter of rhetoric designed to state the immensity of the evil, rather than it being technically and, as a legal doctrine would use the term, an act of war.

MR. KISSINGER: I believe that this act must be followed with a determination to win.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, that's different from declaring it to be an act of war in a formal sense. You, in your recent book, take great exception to humanitarianism being used as a means to violate sovereignty, howsoever subjectively good the intentions are; is that correct?

MR. KISSINGER: No, that's not correct. I take exception to fighting a war on issues that do not affect the immediate American national security or the long-term American national security. An attack on New York and Washington affects the immediate American national security.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: So it does not fall within the pale, the umbrella, of your criticism of American utilization of a humanitarian rationale, of what it did, for example, in Serbia through NATO?

MR. KISSINGER: Well, I thought in Serbia that there were other means of achieving our humanitarian objectives and that it was unwise to proceed as we did, even though I respected the objective. And even though once the war started, I strongly supported fighting it to victory because once a war starts, there is, as Churchill said, no substitute for victory.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: You think we --

MR. KISSINGER: I think it was MacArthur who said it actually, not Churchill.

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MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you think that these acts have moved the evolution of terrorism to a new and unconscionable, unbelievable magnitude?

MR. KISSINGER: There has never been an act of terrorism that was so carefully coordinated, that was so aimed at the civil structure of American society, that was so designed to humiliate the United States by showing that it could not protect its own territory against a bunch of hijackers who were turning commercial airplanes into bombs. And this is a level of terrorism we have not yet seen. And if this is tolerated, the insecurity in all the advanced countries could become unmanageable.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Let us say that a state-operated radio station were to broadcast sympathetic statements -- and more than that, supportive statements -- about terrorist activity and terrorists living within the borders of the state, would you regard that as an act of war? If that --

MR. KISSINGER: I'd consider it as an unfriendly act. Frankly, John, I don't want to get into the legal definition of what is or isn't an act of war. I think it should be a strategic objective to make it more dangerous for countries to harbor terrorists than the terrorists can make it for them by -- to induce them to tolerate them. And I cannot believe that this is beyond our capacity.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: We'll be right back with Dr. Henry Kissinger.

(Announcements.)

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you think that the horrific events of last Tuesday signify a massive failure of intelligence in the United States government?

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MR. KISSINGER: You know, whenever something goes wrong, one blames intelligence. And I think, in a way, probably, intelligence has suffered from the fact that for 10 years we all thought we lived -- or not we all, but too many people thought we were living in a normal world, that there was no danger anymore of an outside attack, that foreign policy was sort of a subdivision of psychiatry. And so thinking all of this, it could have affected the intelligence services.

Secondly, I believe that it never occurred to anyone that terrorists would use this particular means. I've heard talk about suitcase bombs and compounds, but it was always thought that the bombs would be carried into the country, at least from what I've heard. So I -- and it may also be that cuts in intelligence services and the lack of respect that has been shown to some of the kind of operations --

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Covert action?

MR. KISSINGER: -- for covert actions -- all of this has -- probably has combined. And so I don't find it in my heart to blame the intelligence service.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: An overreliance on --

MR. KISSINGER: On technical means --

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: -- on technical spying, espionage, rather than human espionage?

MR. KISSINGER: Yes.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Islamic fundamentalists, extremists, are not afraid of punishment.

MR. KISSINGER: No.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Death is heaven to them.

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MR. KISSINGER: Right.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: So they are undeterrable.

MR. KISSINGER: No.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Why?

MR. KISSINGER: Well, any one of them may be undeterrable. Any 10 of them may be undeterrable. But this thing was planned -- must have had a hundred or more people involved in it.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: So you want to attack on that level?

MR. KISSINGER: Absolutely.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: You want to attack their money. You want to attack their base.

MR. KISSINGER: Exactly.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: And whether they have the motivation or not, it won't make that much difference, because they will not have the instrumentality to effect their evil?

MR. KISSINGER: Precisely. And I hope that if other governments get concerned enough about what we might do, they might make it very difficult for them to operate. And if they can't operate, if they have to stay alive, they have less and less margin for planning their terrorism.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Current opinion is that the terrorists were entirely rational and well-trained.

MR. KISSINGER: By their standards, they were rational.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: What was their provocation?

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MR. KISSINGER: There was no -- their provocation is our existence, not our policies.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Really? What their perceived -- by them -- provocation?

MR. KISSINGER: I think they perceived that America is the Great - they say this; they say America is the "Great Satan," that America assaults the essence of the Islamic world. And they are sort of an expression of the humiliation that the Islamic world has suffered for several centuries now, having had such a glorious earlier history.

But we should be very careful, we Americans and our allies, not to turn this into a clash of civilizations, and not to say this is Christianity or the West against Islam. This is a fight against radical Islam that betrays the ideals of its own religion.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Because of the mystique of anti-Western anti-materialism that it lives by --

MR. KISSINGER: There was a total disregard for human life.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Are you saying that these acts are unconnected with the Palestinian efforts to seek a state and to resolve with their own means the logjam that exists?

MR. KISSINGER: I do not think that what bin Laden represents is primarily caused by the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. That is more aimed - that originates more about his perception of the American role in the Middle East, American and Western capitalist civilization.

But in any event, if we begin to alter our policies in response to terrorism, we will be living in a very terrorist world. Many Palestinians and many Arabs complain about our policies --

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: But they --

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MR. KISSINGER: -- but it is also true that whatever territory Arabs have regained and whatever progress has been made in peace has been owed largely to American pressures.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, what they're complaining about is the ongoing bombing of Iraq, which is a relatively untold story; sanctions, which have gone for over 10 years, and claimed, according to U.N. statistics and the study of Mary Berry from New York, over a million and a half lives, mostly children --

MR. KISSINGER: But that I -- this can't be true, because the -- Iraq is getting a huge sum of money from its oil sales, and it doesn't permit it to be spent on food and medicine, because it wants to create the impression that the civilian population is suffering. I knew the figure; it's at least -- I don't know what it is, but it's in the high billions.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: At any rate, we're trying to talk -- we're discussing the rage in the Arab street.

MR. KISSINGER: I don't think bin Laden is triggered because Iraq refuses to spend its money that it has on food and medicine, for which we are letting them sell oil.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, if that's true and there's reason to believe -- some believe that that's not altogether true. But if it is true, is that a reason or justification for continuing sanctions that continue to take people's lives who are totally innocent?

MR. KISSINGER: I don't think the sanctions are taking people's lives. They may do a lot of things, but they're not taking people's lives.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: They also complain about the fact that Israel is using F-16s made in the United States, American tanks and American helicopters.

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MR. KISSINGER: Look, I'm not saying they have no grievances. Israel has been an ally of the United States for 50 years. And Israel last year, under our auspices, made the most generous offer that's been made, and the result of it was an intifada. So I'm not saying that the Arabs have no grievances, I'm saying that no grievance justifies this act of terrorism.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Of course not. But there are extremists who percolate to the top. We've seen this in this country with Timothy McVeigh.

MR. KISSINGER: And when they attack our country, then we go after them.

(Announcements.)

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Would you describe the current investigation of this event as a police matter?

MR. KISSINGER: No, I think this is a matter of --

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Is it being conducted as a police matter?

MR. KISSINGER: Look, we have a tendency to -- when something like this happens, to retaliate somewhere, and then to try to find some perpetrators, and then close the book on that episode.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you think this is also a political matter?

MR. KISSINGER: This is a highly political matter.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Highly political? Could you describe how highly political it is?

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MR. KISSINGER: Well, I'm starting from the assumption that these terrorists, whoever they are, cannot operate without some state support, without some funds that are being transferred to them from established institutions, and being given help in the way of passports and all kinds of facilities that facilitate their movement. And all of this means that there is a nexus with something that we must try to break.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you think the United States is weakened because of this? Or what do you perceive as the long range -- mid-range to long-range effects of this horror?

MR. KISSINGER: I think, actually, we will come out of it stronger.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: We will?

MR. KISSINGER: Yes, because it brings home to our people that we live in a dangerous world; that there is something out there that must receive our attention, both in the positive and in the negative sense, because I grant some of your points that we should reduce hostility to us, though not in response to a terror attack. And it will unite our people. It has united the Atlantic alliance, which for the first time in its history passed a resolution that a threat to the peace exists. The question of whether we and our European friends still have any common purpose has been answered for the time being. So all of this, it's a terrible price to pay, has restored a sense of proportion.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: And the NATO unity today is certainly more comforting than what we saw when the terrorist, Abu Nidal, was released by the Italians after we had apprehended him on Egypt Air. Correct?

MR. KISSINGER: No comparison. At that time, Abu Nidal had captured an American ship, or a ship on which there were a large number of Americans, killed a number of Americans, and nevertheless, one of our allies did not want to detain him because of fear against its own population of retaliation.

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MR. MCLAUGHLIN: There's a regimen that is being introduced at American airports and on airplanes. It goes from denying passengers steak knives to eat their steak with, steak knives presented by the management, to proposed marshals. Some people believe that this kind of regimen has defeated the return to normalcy, which return to normalcy says more about us than the delay of normalcy, which seems to be playing into exactly what the terrorists want.

MR. KISSINGER: As a general proposition, I would favor returning to normalcy as quickly as possible. I can't judge these individual measures. But when one takes these measures, one ought to take steps that one can carry out over an indefinite period of time.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: In this part of the world there's a great deal of fright, also. In Frankfort, the bank shut down on Wednesday, Thursday, at 3:00 in the afternoon. Some businesses have not reported -- have told their workers they need not become because they're frightened, here, in Germany. So the tentacles of this reach far and wide.

Admitting the horrible heinousness of this act, the indescribable dimension of it, something we've never seen before, can we nevertheless expect any constructive reformist tangent to it; like, if this hadn't come along, perhaps a terrorist act that would involve a nuclear operation might have come first, and this might deter that, so these people, innocents, have not died in vain?

MR. KISSINGER: I think this is an important wake-up call. And I think that people didn't die in vain. One would pray that it didn't --

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: It didn't have to happen.

MR. KISSINGER: When I think of these people in the airplane in that hour or so, half-hour, before they died, that is a cruelty.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: But the United States only functions, sometimes, when there is crisis. Is that true? And you need a crisis to stimulate a population and a government, a regime.

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MR. KISSINGER: For Americans, it's very hard to believe the depth of the hatred. There's nothing in the American experience in a society in which really human relations are very easy, so there's nothing that really prepares Americans for this sort of attitude. And bringing it home to us as it has been brought home to us will now unite us, and I think just not only in a negative sense. It will get more attention to foreign policy because we know now that the world out there is dangerous and that we must not only resist what President Bush called evil, but try to create a constructive environment as well.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Thank you so much, Dr. Kissinger, for your time and for your enlightenment.

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MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you think that the investigation should proceed slowly and with care, at moderate speed, or swiftly?

MR. KISSINGER: It should proceed with moderate care. But I repeat, it is not a legal problem.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Should we seek the extradition of bin Laden?

MR. KISSINGER: I'd be prepared to ask for that.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: We are? Afghanistan says it will not grant it.

MR. KISSINGER: Well then, as I said, we must do what is needed to prevent this.

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MR. MCLAUGHLIN: You know, Qadhafi came forward and he was -- he expressed extreme sorrow at these horrors. And it is said that he did so because he thought that this would thwart any military action against him, if there had been some bad activity, terrorist activity, going on within his country. Likewise, it is said that Afghanistan has granted - or has put bin Laden into house detention for the same reason. My point to you is this: If a nation that has been cooperative, or sympathetic, or silent, or closing the eye to terrorist activity within its own boundaries shows reform or shows even affected contrition and purpose of amendment, would you then use the fullness of multilateral force in any military way? Or if they're cooperating, would you let it go at that?

MR. KISSINGER: I'm not starting out with the determination to use force. I'm starting out with the determination to put an end to the terrorism networks.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: That will require force.

MR. KISSINGER: Well --

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Economic force.

MR. KISSINGER: It will certainly require significant pressure. If they actually dissolve these organizations or make it impossible for them to operate for an extended period of time, that's one thing. But simply expressing contrition or giving blood for the victims --

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, purpose of amendment -- they will clean up that act, they will be reformists, they'll pay more attention to it.

MR. KISSINGER: There have to be actions, not promises.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: There will be actions, too. Would you then regard that --

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MR. KISSINGER: I don't see any sense in using force just to use force. And I think it's so close to the event, it isn't for me, who's being sort of trapped here, to come up with a precise set of actions.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: You feel this is entrapment, sir?

MR. KISSINGER: (Chuckles.) Well, I'd like -- it's no hardship to be in a good hotel in Germany, but I'd like to be closer to where I can get a feel for what people are thinking.

MR. MCLAUGHLIN: And they, what you're thinking.

MR. KISSINGER: Well, and to do what I can to be helpful.