TELCOM
The President/Mr. Kissinger
(Brought in 8/5/71)

- 4 -

P: It's just amazing, it's just amazing. It's the reason that the whole thing really -- today, I got one question on Vietnam.

K: That's right.

P: One question.

K: And I had dinner with Red Blount tonight and of course, he is ecstatic but he said he has either a son or -- it must be a son -- who is now in --

P: Vietnam.

K: No, who is now in Europe who had been a dedicated Democrat, worked his head off for Humphrey and who has now written him a letter saying he is going to vote for you in the next election.

P: (laughter) Isn't that interesting.

K: And he said that this just shows the complete change in attitude.

P: Especially among the young.

K: Especially among the young.

P: And also really in the middle class -- upper middle class.

K: And also among the knowledgeable people, Mr. President. Everybody now believes. In fact, they may give us too much credit for great design in foreign policy.

P: Well, as a matter of fact I think the way we have been putting it -- you put it in your backgrounder and the way I put it today -- nobody can expect too much.

K: No, that was beautifully done.

P: Everybody, Henry, has got to say it was right because you know I really said about the same thing about them that we have been saying about the Russians.

K: Well, there are so many changes. Jerry Weisner, whom you remember

P: Oh, yeah.

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TELCON
The President/Mr. Kissinger
(Brought in 8/5/71)

- 5 -

K: He called up from Cambridge to say that he just came back from England, he just wanted me to know how enthusiastic he was about our China thing and he wanted me to make sure to tell you. And I said we particularly appreciate this from people like you who we know aren't going to vote for us but who are needed to give us the support.

P: Yeah.

K: He said, "What makes you think I'm not going to vote for you? I started out in this as an Independent."

P: That's interesting.

K: I don't think he is going to vote for us but a year ago, Jerry Weisner wouldn't have said this even as a joke. Then I ran into Arthur Schlesinger today; he is in town working on the Kennedy papers.

P: I've never met him; I don't know what he is like.

K: Well, actually, he is a rather good-hearted fellow.

P: Well, I didn't read his book either but people tell me he is an interesting guy.

K: Yeah, he is sort of like Bill Buckley on the Liberal side.

P: Yeah, yeah, yeah; I see.

K: Same sort of fellow.

P: I wonder -- he's a very interesting -- someday when he comes in, you should bring him in just so I can meet him.

K: Oh, I'd be delighted.

P: You know what I mean.

K: Well, he says foreign policy is dead and he is telling all the Democrats to lay off it because he says a lot of them are now hoping the meeting will disintegrate but he says, and I think he is absolutely right, that the Chinese haven't made this step in order to humiliate us now. And actually, I have been having a study made of their propaganda and what's happening is that our newspapers pick up every conceivably critical thing but if you read it carefully --

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P: Yeah.

K: First of all in their attack on the UN statement --

P: Yeah.

K: They have followed the same line as with Taiwan. They have attacked the State Department, they have stayed away from you. Uh -- it's unfair in this case but it gives them a good way out. Secondly, on Vietnam, they have stayed away from asking us to overthrow Thieu.

P: Yeah.

K: All they have asked us to do is withdraw our forces.

P: Yeah. That's easy.

K: That's easy. That we have told them we are doing. The whole tone of their statements is really -- then they published a long series of articles. I have just read them.

P: Um-mmm.

K: Quoting Mao about the 1945 negotiations in which he said one has to negotiate and one has to be willing to make concessions, in order to prove that they are consistent.

P: Humph.

K: So I think they are beginning to position themselves.

P: Well, I think on this whole thing -- I really think the most shameful conduct is that of that jackass, Teddy Kennedy.

K: Oh, he is.

P: To say what he did to the Paks; to have the gall. And then of course to suck around the Chinese this way. You know, to condemn what we are trying to do. For God's sakes --

K: Yeah, but he isn't going to impress --

P: I'll tell you though that I don't think -- it may impress the Chinese.

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K: Oh, no, they are sophisticated.

P: They may think -- if they are smart, they will see exactly what he is trying to do.

K: He hasn't got the votes as far as they are concerned. You represent the real power forces.

P: And there is the other thing.

K: And besides when he goes to India and the Indians start sucking around him, he is going to lose points every time he opens his mouth.

P: Sure. The Chinese sure don't like the Indians, do they?

K: They hate the Indians.

P: (laughter)

K: They are nothing but contempt for the Indians.

P: Which is one thing were our interests are the same.

K: That's right.

P: Or at least our observations are the same, not our interests.

K: That's right.

P: That's very interesting, very interesting. Well, this report we will take a look at in the morning but it's always best to check.

K: No. We touched all the bases. We called Dole to make sure that he didn't go running off at the mouth, giving his interest in prisoners, and we made sure that all of the departments followed the same line. We checked out all the agencies that could possibly --

P: They just may think -- you know, another reason this sort of report is likely to create some credence at the present time, after the China thing they may think we're up to lots of things, you know. And, of course, we want to leave that impression.

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- 8 -

K: That's right.

P: But on the other hand, this one is just too far out, Henry. It just doesn't make any damn sense.

K: That's how it looks to me.

P: But it's just I think some guy sucked around there and just -- you're sure Perot has nothing to do with it?

K: I called him. We talked to him personally.

P: He said it's not him.

K: He says he was in Vientiane but he had nothing to do with it. He has not talked to any airplanes. Of course, the guy might be just sly enough to --

P: Oh, no, no.

K: But that would be just too rugged. I don't see what's in it for him.

P: That's right. Well, we shall see.

K: But I think within a month we will -- I think there is a good chance they will accept some sort of statement of principles.

P: That would be quite an achievement.

Yeah.

K: It depends how they read --

P: Figuring that the statement of principles would hurt Thieu.

K: Yeah. In this respect, what you said today, maybe they think we are doing it anyway to try to knock off Thieu but I don't really think so.

P: (laughter) As a matter of fact, our emotions are a mixture as you know.

K: Yeah, but we shouldn't knock him off without getting something, Mr. President, because --

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P: Oh--h, Christ.

K: We'd be left with nothing.

P: No, my point is our emotions with regard to the -- are mixed in
so far as how the election comes out.

K: Right.

P: On that, frankly, I want him to win. Because, frankly, he has got the votes.

K: Right.

P: We've got to be absolutely -- we're absolutely down the middle and
Thieu expects that too, doesn't he? He doesn't expect us to publicly support
him.

K: No, no, no.

P: If we did, it would kill him.

K: No, no -- well, it wouldn't kill him but it would kill us at home.

P: Well, that's what I meant. He is already dead, but he would be
deader than Kelsey's nuts if we began to get involved. We've got to be
like Caesar's wife.

K: Right, right, absolutely.

P: We don't know yet about Ky; did he get in or out?

K: It looks as if he didn't make it and he is now going to try to go to
court to get on the ballot.

P: Boy, they really take their democracy seriously!

K: You know it is a little ridiculous for our Liberals to start
screaming that a two-man race is undemocratic when in this country
everytime a third party appears, we are worried about its preventing a
clear outcome.

P: Of course. Oh, no, I'll tell you the double standards that they
apply to everything is just unbelievable.

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- 10 -

K: I mean 90% of our elections have been in two party races and third candidates have usually screwed matters up.

P: Always, always; they are a disaster. Well, they have a double standard and we shall see as we go along. You know, I'm very curious though what our Russian friends will be up to. You say Dobrynin says they were having a meeting this week, huh?

K: That's right. Actually from our point of view it's a little early for them to be coming through.

P: Well, I don't think they will. They might, they might.

K: I think they will, Mr. President. They are really sucking around. Now, I have that letter for your signature tomorrow to Brezhnev.

P: Good.

K: And he is really panting for it. We're not saying anything in it that we haven't said before.

P: Good.

K: But what he can do is wave it to his colleagues as a direct line to you.

P: Good. I tell you I think this line that we're now adopting and we're talking to anybody, you know. Except that son-of-a-bitch, Castro, that's one I draw the line on. Understand now, don't let State -- sort of apply the line well, if we have broken with China, why not with Castro. That's a very different situation.

K: Right, absolutely.

P: All right. But except for that, we talk to anybody.

K: But I think the way to play it strategically, Mr. President, is if we are going to Moscow after Peking, it puts the heat on Peking for them to behave themselves because they don't know what we are going to do in Moscow.

P: That's right.

K: If we have been in Moscow, Peking gets its last shot at us.

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TELCORN
The President/Mr. Kissinger
(Brought in 8/5/71)

P: Yep.

K: And on the other hand, we have enough business with Moscow that they won't do a hell of a lot to us.

P: I see no reason, incidentally, why the Moscow visit could not come very soon after the other.

K: No.

P: What I mean is if your Peking thing can't get on -- I mean I don't know what it will be but if it isn't. But the Moscow one, I would prefer basically, as we've talked before, just if it ever -- the best time for Moscow is about the 15th of May.

K: I think that's absolutely right, Mr. President.

P: It's about the right time and so forth and so on. The best time for Peking is actually I think the middle of February if we could make it.

K: That's right. I think we can make that.

P: The Lincoln Day period and all the rest is a good time for us to go.

K: I think we can make that. Connally thinks, Mr. President, that we should put it not before March 1st. Anytime from March 1st on but he puts it purely politically.

P: It's closer to the election.

K: No, he figures if you have a good domestic program, that's going to carry you through February.

P: He's correct, yeah.

K: And with the trip to Peking coming up, they are going to be like lambs anyway. And right after they reconvene so why shoot that wad too early in February?

P: Uh-humm. Well, that would be all right. March isn't bad.

K: No, March -- well, from climate which is not bad, we could do it. And, of course, they will all be running around New Hampshire.

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The President/Mr. Kissinger

(Brought in 8/5/71)

- 12 -

P: Yeah, that'd be nice. They might be there for the time of the primary if we can work it. I am not among those -- I mean, I'm like you, that they think that they're just in a fit of pique say, "Well, no, we are going to knock this thing out.

K: No, too big a thing for them.

P: Well, they've come this far, and now... also, we can play some games. After all, if they want to play it, then we'll just toughen up, too.

K: But playing with Moscow is in itself a warning to them, and your seeing Hirohito. Now, one thing...

P: That's worked out?

K: Yeah, that's worked out.

P: We are going at midnight, huh?

K: Well, it's going to be around 10:00 in the evening, but it would be midnight your time.

P: I don't give a damn about that. That's a nice thing, though.

K: Oh, yes, and they'll appreciate that enormously. Now, one thing, Mr. President. Scali, in order to get Agnew into NEWSWEEK has written an article for him which is essentially on China policy.

P: Oh, for Christ's sake.

K: And I really don't think... It's a fairly harmless article. I've knocked out three paragraphs which make it... But I don't Agnew should pop off on China policy at all.

P: No, no, no. Scali should have consulted... He hasn't shown it to him yet, has he?

K: Well, he has, but I'll take responsibility for knocking it off if you agree.

P: Yeah. It should not be on China policy. I think he should write it on...

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The President/Mr. Kissinger

(Brought in 8/5/71)

- 13 -

K: On his trip.

P: Yeah.

K: Because the thing that worries me, Mr. President.

P: And, also, he's got to build the trip up. He doesn't know
any [End of Tape 1]

[Beginning of Tape 2]

P: I really think that's what it should be. And America's friends...

K: Exactly.

P: It's going to be very exciting..

K: Well, I'd rather have no article from him because one of the problems also is that I've... the Chinese are just beginning to moderate some of their writings and we've sent a message to them saying this would help and that we are following that line so, having said this, we are hitting them a few shots that they won't like -- they didn't like the UN statement.

P: Of course not.

K: They will intensely dislike your seeing Matak from Cambodia on Monday.

P: But you've explained that to them.

K: But still they have to do some yelling about it. Actually, I haven't seen Matak explained because...

P: Well, the hell with it, though; we've got to see Matak and we are going to. We don't like their seeing Le Duc Tho.

K: That's right, and that's why I didn't explain it to them.

P: I see.

K: But they still won't like it, so if on top of that, Agnew starts popping off, I really feel we ought to kill that article altogether. And I'll take the blame for it -- I'll explain it to him.

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