seem to be fading.

KING: Manila, The Philippines. hello.

5th CALLER: [Manila, The Philippines] Hello. Will you be running if you lose this year?

KING: Will you run again, Pat?

Mr. BUCHANAN: [Laughs] Larry, I'm only committed to go through August and to go through November helping the party and trying to help whoever the nominee is, and I'm not committed to do anything else.

KING: What do you fellows both think of the Ross Perot candidacy? Dick — the proposed candidacy, possible candidacy?

Sen. LUGAR: I think that Ross Perot ought to help the Republican Party. I think the Republican Party stands for the principles that Ross Perot stands for and that, if he detracts from the strength of the Republican candidate, that will be a disaster for our country.

KING: Pat?

Mr. BUCHANAN: I think that Dick Lugar is exactly right. If he runs in the general election and he hits some of these issues like foreign aid, he could drain off, siphon off, conservative Republican and conservative Democratic votes that usually go to us in the general election. He could conceivably cost George Bush the presidency.

KING: Fargo, North Dakota, hello.

6th CALLER: [Fargo, North Dakota] Yes, I'm wondering why we can't tie some of these guarantees to their oil reserves? Russia has a lot of oil reserves and we could tie those in there, and that's never been mentioned.

KING: Senator?

Sen. LUGAR: A very good point. It was mentioned to the President today in the White House. Collateral for these loans would be a very good idea and there's no reason why in the legislation we're about to fashion we can't mention that explicitly and make that a part of it. I think it's an excellent idea.

KING: Pat?

Mr. BUCHANAN: I think that would be a far better idea than what I think is truly — even though Dick agrees with me — is really foreign aid.

KING: Sebring, Florida, hello.

7th CALLER: [Sebring, Florida] Hi. I've got a comment for Mr. Buchanan, in that his statement that foreign aid seems to be a narcotic affecting other countries' budgets— I think we can see that our own welfare system in the United States has a narcotic effect—

Mr. BUCHANAN: Right.

7th CALLER: —in that we have generations of folks that are in that status and we can't seem to relieve them, either.

Mr. BUCHANAN: Well, you know, Larry, on this point it seems to me what we've got in Washington, to be honest, at both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue is a new policy of, "Read my lips: No new thinking." Ronald Reagan phased out revenue sharing with our state capitals — all our American states — because we couldn't afford it; but what foreign aid is, is revenue sharing with foreign governments and foreign states that aren't even American.

KING: But Dick says it's not revenue. It's not giving

revenues.

Mr. BUCHANAN: Well, I mean, look, the point is, Larry they're going to get $24 billion. They are now $80 billion in debt. They can't make payments on those debts. They're bust and bankrupt. Piling $24 billion more in debt on a bankrupt country is not a way to see that money come rolling back.

KING: I'm running out of time. Quickly, Stockholm Sweden, hello.

8th CALLER: [Stockholm, Sweden] Yes, gentlemen, everybody knows that the Jews are very strong in America. Can you touch the foreign aid to Israel?

KING: Can you touch that? You would cut it, right, Pat?

Mr. BUCHANAN: I would phase it down and phase it out, that's right. I don't think it's good for Israel. They've increased the size of their state enormously.

KING: Dick?

Sen. LUGAR: I think that the aid ought to be phased out. I think many people in Israel, particularly on the economic side, have suggested that, if we have the guarantees of the loans now, that will occur over a five-year period.

KING: We're out of time. Thanks, guys.

Mr. BUCHANAN: Thank you, Larry.

KING: We shall be hearing lots more from both of you. Thanks, Pat. Thanks, Dick.

We'll break and come back with former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger. This is Larry King Live in Washington. Stay right there.

ANNOUNCER: Next: How to make sure aid for Russia isn't wasted. Henry Kissinger speaks out.

[Commercial break]

## An Interview With Henry Kissinger

KING: Welcome back to more of Larry King Live. After World War II, the United States spent billions rebuilding its vanquished enemies. It was the Marshall Plan. It worked like a charm. Some in Detroit, by the way, struggling against Japan and Germany, might say it worked too well. Anyway, another war is over — the cold war — and the United States is again poised to lavish billions on a former foe. But Henry Kissinger says, "Hold on. Times have changed."

The distinguished former Secretary of State joins us here in Washington — finally, Henry, finally — on Larry King Live.

HENRY KISSINGER, Former Secretary of State: It's true.

KING: What an honor to finally—

Mr. KISSINGER: We've always missed each other.

KING: OK. And we've agreed we won't discuss the 60 Minutes story tonight, but in the future we will. OK? So we could look at it— your chance to respond in depth. We're not going to do it tonight, OK? Fair?

Mr. KISSINGER: Because there isn't time to rebut all the lies that were on that.

KING: OK, and I want you to have the time to respond, or not respond. That's your call.

Mr. KISSINGER: OK.

(10)

**KING:** All right, the story today. Bush and Clinton—
They both made the same speech, literally. Do you agree?

**Mr. KISSINGER:** Substantially, yes — more or less the
ame.

**KING:** What do you mean, "more or less"?

**Mr. KISSINGER:** Well, I think there were nuances, but
basically Clinton is following the same line as Bush is.

**KING:** OK, that they agree. Do you agree with them?

**Mr. KISSINGER:** I agree that it is useful to give aid to
the former Soviet Union today. I do not like some of the
explanations, especially the explanations in the Clinton
speech which were more exalted than the ones in the Bush
speech.

**KING:** [Laughs] More exalted?

**Mr. KISSINGER:** More exalted — I mean, in the sense
that the thing that concerns me is to give the impression
that the only interest the United States has in the world is
to spread democracy in the former Soviet Union and that
the spread of democracy will automatically produce peace.

The situation in the Soviet Union is extremely compli-
cated. There were two big revolutions going on in the last
three years: the revolution against communism, and the
revolution against Russian imperialism. The first one goes
back 75 years. The second one goes back 400 years. So
when you look at that, not every anticommunist is a de-
mocrat. Not every democrat is against imperialism, be-
cause imperialism is sometimes quite popular. And so we
have to make sure that the anticommunists don't defeat
the anti-imperialists.

**KING:** I got you. There are factions going on over there, as well.

**Mr. KISSINGER:** Exactly, and so we shouldn't get our-
selves totally enmeshed in the domestic politics of 12 suc-
cessor states.

**KING:** OK. Do you agree in essence—

**Mr. KISSINGER:** But I support the aid program that
President Bush put forward today.

**KING:** Which was pretty much what President Nixon
asked, correct?

**Mr. KISSINGER:** Yes.

**KING:** Although he may have asked for more.

**Mr. KISSINGER:** It really doesn't make— The amount
doesn't make so much difference because we have to keep
in mind we're now talking about $30 billion. Last year
they received $50 billion, which has been totally lost. Or to
look at it another way, East Germany, which has a popula-
tion of 16 million, receives $90 billion a year from West
Germany, plus a civil service, plus a managerial group. If
you wanted to do that in Russia or in the former Soviet
Union, you would need a trillion dollars. So any aid of the
scale that we're now talking about is relatively inadequate
and the difference, say, between President Bush and Presi-
dent Nixon could be only $5 billion, $10 billion — which is
a drop in the bucket.

**NG:** [Laughs] That's funny — five十 billion is a drop
in the bucket.

**Mr. KISSINGER:** That's right.

**KING:** How do you respond to the Pat Buchanan element
of the party, as Pat expressed earlier here tonight — the

far-right wing which might say. "Hey, we've got more prob-
lems than that. We've got our own problems. They're not
our problem. Let them solve their own problems"? I don't
want to quote from him but, in essence, what they're
saying.

**Mr. KISSINGER:** I don't think they can solve their own
problems in the present situation when you have to go
from central planning to market economics and dismantle
a machinery that has been set up for literally hundreds of
years. To do all of this simultaneously could lead to total
chaos and, in a situation of absolute chaos, you could get
dramatic developments which could spill over into the out-
side world, such as a civil war between the various groups.
So the present scale of effort I support but—

**KING:** Is in our best interest?

**Mr. KISSINGER:** It's in our best interest. What we have
to watch — but I'm not talking about next year and the
year after — is not to create a situation where aid becomes
a device by which the old empire is reconstituted. For ex-
ample, if you force them to use only one currency, that
gives the country that has the currency the dominant in-
fluence there. And when I listened to some of the people
on television explaining it, they present this entirely as if
it were an economic technical program. It's a political and
historical problem and we have to keep that in mind as it
evolves. The first year, I'd support what the President has
put forward.

**KING:** Would you say the President is on top of this situa-
tion?

**Mr. KISSINGER:** Yes, and I was very impressed that
today he called both Yeltsin and Kravchuk from the Uk-
raine, which indicates that he is aware of the fact that
there are now 12 republics where there was one unified
state before. He called the president of the second-largest
republic, together with President Yeltsin who is the presi-
dent of the largest one.

**KING:** What influence do you want over this money, or do
you want none?

**Mr. KISSINGER:** On the economic level, it absolutely
will not work unless they do a number of things — that
they establish a banking system: they have to establish
some legal system in all the republics that are eligible—

**KING:** And we have a right to say, "Do that"?

**Mr. KISSINGER:** Well, otherwise, the money will be ab-
solutely down the drain.

**KING:** OK, so that's one of the things we want for our
money — that they do this?

**Mr. KISSINGER:** That's right—

**KING:** OK, what else?

**Mr. KISSINGER:** —but that in itself doesn't solve the
political problem. What we should also want is that they
establish normal relationships between each other. For ex-
ample, there are not yet really diplomatic relations be-
tween the former components of the Soviet Union, which
suggests that some people may have in the back of their
mind that when they get an opportunity they'll forge them
together again.

We have an interest in preventing a recurrence on the
territory of the former Soviet Union of what happened in

(c)

Yugoslavia because, on that scale and with that bitterness, it could then really spill over elsewhere.

**KING:** We'll come right back with the former Secretary of State, the distinguished Henry Kissinger, on Larry King Live. Don't go away.

*[Commercial break]*

**KING:** This is the first of what we hope will be many appearances on this program worldwide. Former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger is our special guest. This is Larry King Live.

A story that broke late this afternoon, received widespread attention earlier tonight: Russia has long-term plans to forge a sharply-reduced independent armed force of 1.2 million to 1.3 million troops and adopt a defensive military doctrine, a senior Administration official said Wednesday. A force that size and type is far less threatening than the former Soviet Union militarily. Your response?

**Mr. KISSINGER:** I agree and I think that is one of the examples of what I was talking about before. As long as the Soviet Union—or as long as there was a Russian empire, they always had a larger army than anybody else. They were always by their existence a threat to all their neighbors, who then armed, and that set up a vicious spiral of armament on both sides and action and reaction.

If this is actually carried out — and I think it probably will be — this would be a very positive sign that Russia, for the first time in several hundred years, is going to concern

self with its own territory, not threaten its neighbors, and thereby actually probably gain more influence with its neighbors than it had before.

**KING:** What do you think of Boris Yeltsin?

**Mr. KISSINGER:** Well, he is a very Russian type — elemental, courageous, not as sophisticated as Gorbachev, more in tune with the necessities of his society. Gorbachev, in his heart of hearts, was a convinced— is a convinced communist who wanted to liberalize a system that can't be liberalized. Yeltsin — who also started out as a communist and was one for a long, long time — understood that communism itself wouldn't work any more.

**KING:** Henry, did you think, honestly, you'd ever see this in your lifetime?

**Mr. KISSINGER:** I never believed it was possible.

**KING:** What did it?

**Mr. KISSINGER:** Well, in retrospect you can say what did it was that the communist system was so much against the human spirit that a breaking point came. It set up an economy which was really a feudal economy because when every article moved by allocation, when there's nothing spontaneous, when there's no market, when there's no freedom, then a bunch of bureaucrats having total authority become absolutely corrupt, and the standard of living kept falling.

The second thing that did it, probably, is that Gorbachev, funnily enough, overestimated the resilience of the system and he didn't understand that if you start pulling a few threads out the whole thing would come apart. And so he started out very courageously undertaking the reform of the communist system and wound up destroying the com-

munist system, which he never intended.

**KING:** We know the place in history you've set with changing world events, the place that Mr. Nixon has set. What will be Gorbachev's? What will they say of him?

**Mr. KISSINGER:** I think Gorbachev will go down in history as a man who made a huge difference: who started a series of events whose full import he didn't understand and who was consumed by the revolution that he started, but who still made a huge difference.

**KING:** No Gorbachev — no Yeltsin?

**Mr. KISSINGER:** No Gorbachev — no Yeltsin.

**KING:** OK. You said that Clinton was a little off-base. Can you briefly tell us what he said today that you didn't like?

**Mr. KISSINGER:** Well, fundamentally, on all the major points he seems to me to be agreeing with President Bush. There are a number of things he said which I thought did not come with extraordinary grace from him, like when he said that the President ended the war in the Gulf too soon, since his position at the beginning of the war was extremely ambiguous when he said that actually he thought the people who were for sanctions and for deferral of the war had the better of the argument. And I believe that the President was extremely courageous in the way he managed the war, and it's very easy in retrospect to say one should have gone on a few more—

**KING:** But what did Governor Clinton say vis-à-vis the Russians?

**Mr. KISSINGER:** What he said vis-à-vis the Russians, he made one point which I can understand — and that's no criticism — but he spoke of sending tens of thousands of Americans over there to teach them democracy. Now the Russians are a very proud people that have a history of hundreds of years, and certainly we should be prepared to give technical assistance, and surely we should send a few advisers if they ask for it. But to give the impression that we have tens of thousands, or even ten thousand people that could teach them democracy, unless they ask for it in a very specific way, that seems to me to give— That's why I said “somewhat too exalted.”

**KING:** In other words, that's not the way it works. right?

**Mr. KISSINGER:** I think it is not the way it works, and we really have to explain to the American people that, while progress has been made, they are far from being a democracy; and secondly, that Russia is not the only problem there, that there are 11 other republics; and that if we get this out of kilter we may be resuming the tragedies of Russian history, which have been over-extension.

**KING:** Back with more of former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger on Larry King Live, right after this.

*[Commercial break]*

**KING:** With Henry Kissinger.

How do you make — in a time of political unrest in the United States which you have to be aware of as a candidate or a President — how do you make aid sellable? How do you say to the guy in Des Moines who says, “Throw ‘em all out! They’re kiting checks. The President was late on the recession. They’re all terrible. Now you want to give my money away!”

Mr. KISSINGER: I think the best explanation is the truth and to explain we've had a big victory in the cold war but that does not mean we can go home. It means that we are now related to the world in a different way than we were before. And the reason I keep emphasizing the American national interest is because I believe the President has to explain why it is in our self-interest to have a world in which there's a minimum incentive for extreme actions and for military action and where there is a maximum incentive for economic growth. In the process, he has also to explain that the problems don't simply go away and that there's some idyllic terminal point.

Now it's a tough job, but I believe if one talks frankly to the American public and says, "Here's what I know. Here is what the history of this place is. Here is what we can do. Here is what we probably cannot do," it goes better than to say, "If we give this then everything will be well," and then there's a setback and huge disillusionment.

KING: In other words, what you're saying — and this is shocking — just be honest.

Mr. KISSINGER: I say the American people need to hear about the world they live in from the people who are supposed to know it best in an area where they have less experience than in their day-to-day affairs. Yet they understand—

KING: And you think that they will understand this and, if they don't and there are political repercussions, well, that's—

Mr. KISSINGER: I think, if it is explained well, the American people in the end have always come through. It's a very patriotic people.

KING: And this is certainly bipartisan.

Mr. KISSINGER: This is bipartisan now.

KING: What do you think about — we'll touch some other bases — the Ross Perot potential candidacy?

Mr. KISSINGER: Well, you know, Ross Perot is a very courageous man with a lot of ideas. He used to drive me crazy during the Vietnam War because he wanted to deliver food to the American prisoners in Vietnam, which was a marvelous objective—

KING: I didn't know that.

Mr. KISSINGER: Oh, yes. And of course it was not easy to convince him that there were technical obstacles to just flying planes— But he managed to get a lot done. Then I greatly admired when he managed to free some of his people from prison in Iran and he launched a rescue operation. Now whether you can go from that to actually running a country which has so many political and psychological aspects— But I think he's a refreshing personality and an interesting man.

KING: Going to be a force in the campaign, do you think, just by the sheer nature of—

Mr. KISSINGER: I think at any rate he will raise important issues. And since I believe that we should get away

from these machine-made politics — the public relations people try to feel out what the pulse is and then write out standard statements — I think it's helpful to have somebody in there who raises these issues.

KING: So you welcome his candidacy?

Mr. KISSINGER: But I'm a supporter, of course, of President Bush.

KING: I know, but you welcome new ideas?

Mr. KISSINGER: I think we live in a world where we absolutely must have new ideas.

KING: Will Perot hurt both candidates?

Mr. KISSINGER: I'm not a great political expert. I can't tell whom he will hurt.

KING: But you like him? I didn't know he—

Mr. KISSINGER: Well, I like him as a person.

KING: Yes, that's what I mean. I mean, you like him.

Mr. KISSINGER: You know, if I thought that he would hurt President Bush I think that would be a pity, because I want President Bush to win.

KING: Is he a great President, in your opinion?

Mr. KISSINGER: I think he has been an excellent President. And there are always cycles in events and after a period of great economic expansion you're bound to have some difficulties, but it's also important to keep your head in the middle of crisis, and he has done that.

KING: Henry, the other morning last week I emceed a breakfast at B'Nai B'Rith — 3,000 young people, B'Nai B'Rith people. It was a discussion. The name 'Jim Baker' came up. It came up by one of the panelists. Three thousand people booed — had to stop the proceedings. Are they wrong?

Mr. KISSINGER: I think they're wrong to boo. I have stated that I do not like the apparent cold-heartedness with which Secretary Baker sometimes treats the Israeli negotiators. On the other hand, Secretary Baker deserves enormous credit for having assembled the first peace conference. I think peace is in the interest of Israel. He has made a unique contribution in that and I think, if he could show a little more compassion for the complexity of motivation that is involved there, he could avoid some of the hostility.

KING: We'll be back with just a moment or two with Secretary Kissinger after this.

[Commercial break]

KING: We're limited on time. Would you like to come in and help mediate the dispute in hockey? We've got a strike in the National Hockey League.

Mr. KISSINGER: Well, I'd like to see the Stanley Cup.

KING: So would you come in if they asked you? Would you do that?

Mr. KISSINGER: You know, the thought has never occurred to me—

KING: It occurred to me.

Mr. KISSINGER: Well, it might be sort of fun to try to do that, but I'm not asking for this and I don't know anything about the issues—

KING: I'm suggesting it.

Mr. KISSINGER: I don't know anything about the issues involved.

KING: You're a quick read, though.

Mr. KISSINGER: Well, I don't know.

KING: How's the World Cup going to do here? You're chairman. The soccer cup is coming. We only have less than a minute.

Mr. KISSINGER: Well, I'm a great soccer fan and I hope that it will be a big success. And we're going to have lots of fans watching the games and then I hope it will establish itself in the United States as a major sport.

KING: Do you miss the action of Government?

Mr. KISSINGER: No, I lead a full life now.

KING: Don't miss it?

Mr. KISSINGER: No. No, no, you mustn't be outside of Government and yearn for it.

KING: Thanks, Henry.

Mr. KISSINGER: Nice to be here.

KING: Henry Kissinger — What can we say? It'll be the first of many visits.

The news is next. We'll be back tomorrow night. Dolly Parton— If you like diversity, it happens on Larry King Live. Dolly Parton will be with us tomorrow night. Thanks for joining us. Good night.

Copyright © 1992 Cable News Network, Inc.

Air Date: May 6, 1992
Transcript #555

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# Larry King Live

## Henry Kissinger: The New Global Power Structure

LARRY KING .................................................................... Host

Guest:
HENRY KISSINGER, Former Secretary of State

Senior Executive Producer .............................. TAMARA HADDAD

Copyright © 1992 Cable News Network, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. This transcript may not be produced in whole or in part without permission. Condition of use: credit CNN's Larry King Live for the use of excerpts.

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Transcribed by Lois Washington for Journal Graphics, Inc.

This transcript has not yet been checked against videotape
id cannot, for that reason, be guaranteed as to accuracy of
speakers and spelling of names. (LW)

LARRY KING LIVE Transcript #555

Air Date: May 6, 1992

**ANNOUNCER:** Welcome to Larry King Live from New York. Tonight: The cold war ends where it began. An evening with America's foremost voice on world affairs, the man who crafted detente and opened China — Henry Kissinger on Gorbachev's call for world democracy and the uncertain order of this brave new world. Now, here's Larry King.

**LARRY KING:** Good evening. We have a real treat in store for you tonight. The cold war was already pretty much dead, and today it got a decent burial. Presiding: Mikhail Gorbachev, who spoke at the Missouri college where Winston Churchill, 46 years ago, opened an era of political hostility between East and West. Gorbachev, no longer president of anything, called for world democracy and a global security system to prevent new world wars. For the United States — a victory to savor, or new responsibilities to worry about?

Few can tell us any better than Henry Kissinger, the visionary former Secretary of State who helped Richard Nixon engineer detente with the Soviet Union in the 70's, negotiated to open China, and closed the Vietnam War. Dr. Kissinger now consults and comments. He's with us here in New York city — delighted to welcome him to our studios — and he'll be with us for the full hour and we'll be taking your phone calls. Our number is (212) 643-0077. That's (212) 643-0077.

Henry. I thank you very much. You said you'd come and do an hour, and you've come through.

**HENRY KISSINGER, Former Secretary of State:** Delighted to be here.

**KING:** Your overall response to the Gorbachev address today?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Well, it's an amazing speech because— The historical part is interesting, where he says how weak the Soviets were at the end of the war. But then, where he describes the kind of world that he wants to have come about, that sounds like Woodrow Wilson at the end of World War I.

**KING:** Yes. Was that bad?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Well, it isn't bad. It has never worked before, and the idea that all nations of the world could cooperate with each other to preserve the peace is a mar-

dious and moving idea, except the real problem— Challenge to the peace occurs when one major nation doesn't play ball. And then the question is, who cooperates with whom?

**KING:** So does the pragmatist say. "It can't work," or does the visionary try to make it work? What do you do if you're in world positions of change?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I think it's a tremendous event when the former head of the communist party of the Soviet Union can talk like an American liberal democrat. I don't mean party Democrat: I mean somebody in the Wilsonian tradition. On the other hand, the problem with the Wilsonian vision was this: If all the nations of the world agree to preserve the peace, then you don't have a problem. But if one or two of the big nations become rogue and aggressors, then all the others will have to choose.

**KING:** But Wilson's vision allowed for that by having them move against that aggressor. And we didn't go into the League.

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Yes, but whenever— You take the League of Nations, for example. When Italy attacked Ethiopia — or Abyssinia, as it was called in those days — by the rules of the League, all the other nations should have combined against Italy. And they were strong enough to deal with Italy easily, without the United States. But then, France was worried about Germany England didn't want a war because they had a strong pacifist tradition.

**KING:** So self-interest takes over? Is what you're saying?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Yes. And what they were doing then in the 30's was they put sanctions on Italy, except the sanctions that mattered — namely, they permitted oil imports into Italy.

**KING:** What should President Bush say today or tomorrow in response to that Gorbachev address?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Well, what Gorbachev said is in the great American tradition. And he should certainly say that in a world in which all nations are peace-loving the United States would cooperate with all peace-loving nations, and if they're not peace-loving we would still cooperate with those nations who want to preserve the peace. So there is an element of realism in the Gorbachev approach, provided a nation like the United States manages to bring together other peace-loving nations, as we did in the Gulf, for example.

**KING:** Henry. maybe this is simplistic, but everybody wants to live. Isn't that true?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Yes.

**KING:** Chinese people don't want to die; Jews don't want to die; Arabs don't want to die; Germans don't want to die. Why do we fight?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Well, it's an interesting question because if you look at human history you will find practically no period — except for this country — where you can say there's been 100 years of peace. Look at Yugoslavia today. Those people in that region have been killing each other for as long as recorded history. That's where the Ottoman and the Austrian empires fought the Roman empire, and World War I started there.

**KING:** But you deal with human nature all the time. That's your business — right? — bringing humans together for better nature among themselves. Why?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** It seems to be that the ethnic groups and the national groups seem to be in such strong rivalry with each other that they prefer to fight rather than coexist and make some concessions. You see it right now

in Bosnia. You see it in the former Soviet Union.

**KING:** Do you see it in Los Angeles, too?

**r. KISSINGER:** And you see it to some extent in Los Angeles, yes.

**KING:** How does the negotiator, the veteran negotiator such as yourself whose desire it is to calm it down— Right? A negotiator fails if people kill each other.

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Exactly.

**KING:** OK. What does he do, faced with self-interest?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I tell you, the amateurs say — the outsiders say — "You tell everybody what he likes to hear and then sort of sucker them into coming together." That's total nonsense. The thing you have to do, if you really want to bring people together, is to try to find out what they really want and what the minimum is they can live with, and to try to find out what the other side really wants: because they're going to meet each other, so you have to tell each of them the same story. What you have to do is convince them that a compromise is better for each of them than what they could gain by conflict.

**KING:** Then the skilled negotiator doesn't lie.

**Dr. KISSINGER:** The skilled negotiator does not lie, because he has to remember — especially the skilled mediator — that the parties will meet each other.

**KING:** And are all the good ones a win-win?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** No agreement will be kept that is not a win-win agreement. If you try to outsmart somebody, you may get the agreement, but it will never be kept.

**KING:** All right. Gorbachev's role— There's a lot of bases to touch, but what is his story? What are they going to say about him?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** You know, I've met Gorbachev seven or eight times and I've met previous Soviet leaders. He's livelier, more intellectual. I mean, he has a higher education than the others. And he was much more capable of breaking away from communist ideology than any of the other Soviet leaders. He had tremendous courage in facing the weaknesses of his society and trying to remedy them.

What he didn't understand is that the communist system was doomed. He thought he could reform it and, when he started pulling out threads, he unraveled the whole structure. Because, after Lenin and Stalin and all the KGB and secret police, the Soviet system had been used to the heavy hand of the central government, and most of the able people were in the communist party because that's where the careers were. So he tried to shunt the communist party aside, but he didn't create an alternative group of people that were devoted to his view. He thought he could balance between the left and the right, and in the end he had no supporters left, and the left and the right went at each other directly.

**KING:** If Yeltsin succeeds, does he diminish?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** No, he will— You have to remember that Gorbachev has a tremendous reputation in the outside world because he made them safer. Inside Russia, he does not have such a high reputation because many of the Russians liked, or at least were content with, the imperial heritage of the past. Yeltsin is a different type. Yeltsin is a more traditional Russian autocratic type than Gorbachev

is.

**KING:** So it'll be two history books? The Russian history book will not read the same as the American history book—

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I think that's right.

**KING:** —about Gorbachev?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I think that's right, but I think even in Russia, if Yeltsin succeeds and if at the end of the day there's a modern state, I think it will be better for Gorbachev than if Yeltsin fails and chaos continues, because he'll get the credit for having started it anyway.

**KING:** We've got lots more to talk about with Henry Kissinger, and your phone calls, as well, at (212) 643-0077.

Tomorrow night, David Broder and Bob Woodward, and Jerry Seinfeld: and then, Friday night, a full hour with Terry Anderson. Don't go away.

[Commercial break]

**KING:** We could spend a full evening with Henry Kissinger. We do have an hour. We'll be taking your calls. This is Larry King Live. We're in New York.

Where in history does Richard Nixon come into this — the Gorbachev era?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I think Richard Nixon will be considered the American President of the century, who understood foreign policy best and who started the most initiatives that lasted for a long period of time.

**KING:** Did Reagan follow suit?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I think Reagan could not have achieved what he did except for the framework that Nixon had originally created in China, relations with the Soviet Union, in the Middle East — in the whole set of negotiations that went on.

**KING:** Have we seen a resurrection of Richard Nixon and, if so, correctly?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I think Richard Nixon made a lot of mistakes, but he was too harshly treated in '74. And I think he deserves the respect of his country.

**KING:** By the way, his favorite President was Wilson.

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I know.

**KING:** Interesting how time goes on like this.

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Yes.

**KING:** The Arab-Israeli situation — Query: If President Bush, or President Clinton, or President Perot — or any President — were to say to you, "Be the mediator in this, take over our part of the Arab-Israeli negotiations, go there," would you?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Look, if I were sensible, I wouldn't and, theoretically, I would say "No." But if a President asks you to do something and you've been in Government, you really shouldn't turn it down — although, believe me, this is not something I would like to do.

**KING:** Why? What a crowning cap to a career.

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Because, for one thing, I don't believe that a final peace settlement is possible. I do believe— It's certainly not quickly possible. What I believe is possible is an arrangement on the so-called West Bank in which the Arabs gain a large degree of self-government — all of self-government, really, except for the defense of the area, and not of the whole West Bank but of the non-strategic areas

(L)

— about three-quarters of the population, plus Gaza. I think that is achievable and, if that could be done, then in five or 10 years, if they can learn to live together and if some of the tension goes out of the relationship, another step could be taken. That I think is possible, and that would be a tremendous achievement.

**KING:** Has President Bush called on you for anything?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I have had many opportunities to give my views to President Bush, and he's treated me with great kindness.

**KING:** So your answer is you wouldn't want to do it, but if asked—

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I would not—

**KING:** —you'd say "Yes"?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** No. I would really want to discourage it strongly and say somebody who has not already been engaged in this, but one should never— It is not right to create the impression that one puts one's personal self-interest ahead of the request of a President.

**KING:** Someone who does what you do well— What would you look for in a young person?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** In what? For—

**KING:** A young mediator, negotiator. What do you want? What makes a good one?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Character and courage, and some knowledge of history. It's the only experience we have on which to draw. You can always hire an analyst, but, in the difficult decisions when it's 51-49, you need somebody with a character.

**KING:** We'll be right back with Henry Kissinger. We'll start including your phone calls, as well. This is Larry King Live. We'll ask him about the *60 Minutes* program. We won't forget that. We'll touch on that. There's a lot of other bases, as well. Don't go away.

[Commercial break]

**KING:** Our guest — former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger.

On March 29th on *60 Minutes* they did a piece on you. Henry — critical — charging, I guess, that you sold influence with world leaders; that your consulting organization makes a great deal of money through your influence. You chose not to appear on that show, so the question is two-fold: What did you think of it? Why didn't you appear?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Well, first, let me explain why I didn't appear. And I don't think the average viewer knows how a program like *60 Minutes* is put together. They interview you for half an hour, then they cut up your answers and scatter them throughout the program. So that you may be appearing on the program answering a charge which you didn't even hear, out of which and with which they fit out of something you have said. And they make you look like a defendant: charge, answer, charge, answer. They interview you for half an hour. They use maybe six or seven minutes of what you have said.

I told them I would appear if they did me either live or taped for a full segment — say, eight minutes, or whatever time they wanted from me — or if they put my answers with the questions, rather than just scatter them around.

I told them they could take out my whole answer, but that if they cut up my answer they should indicate to the public that they have cut my answer. Then they said—

**KING:** And what did they say?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Well, they said publicly I'm trying to control the editing. I wanted them not to edit me. I was perfectly willing to stand on what I had said. What I was not willing to do is for editors of *60 Minutes*, who are interested in entertainment and sensationalism, to make me say things which I hadn't said by taking sentences out of context.

**KING:** But you and Mike Wallace go back a lot of years. I spoke to Mike. He said he interviewed you 30 years ago.

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Thirty years ago he interviewed me. consecutively, for half an hour. I was perfectly willing to do it live on the same terms. I did not want to prescribe to them what they should do. I did not want to have them prescribe to me how they could use answers that I had given in response to totally different questions.

**KING:** Were you surprised at what they did?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I thought it was savage. I thought it was unfair. I thought it was untrue. Now, again, the average viewer will not believe that you can go for 20 minutes on the top-rated program in the country in which much of what they said was simply untrue, and some of the true things they said were so out of context that they were operationally untrue.

**KING:** All right, when I retain you— The essence of their story is, when I retain you I'm buying more than just your brains. I'm buying the fact that you get in to world leaders no matter what's going on in the world. You get to Beijing if they're killing their people.

**Dr. KISSINGER:** First of all, I'm out of Government for 15 years. I did not create my consulting firm for six years after leaving Government — for a presidential term and a half. The huge majority of world leaders today are people who were not in office when I was there. I do not peddle influence.

One of the things they said was that when I was in China in '89 I did this for business. When I was in China in '89, I was talking to the Chinese about the release of their dissidents, the release of the dissident that was in the American Embassy, and I talked about no commercial activity. And what is upsetting to me is that *60 Minutes* knew this. They interviewed somebody — Judge Hope, Judith Hope [sp?] from Washington, a respected lawyer, member of the Harvard Corporation. She told them that she was present at all my meetings: that no business was ever discussed. They did not put her on camera. They did not refer to the fact that they had interviewed her. They put on camera only people who criticized me, most of whom didn't know a thing about what they were saying.

**KING:** Did you speak to anyone after the show? Did you ask why they didn't include her at all?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I didn't ask them why. I've pointed out to them the many factual errors. I have yet to receive a response. I've sent them 10 pages of errors.

**KING:** Do you feel personally hurt by Mike?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Yes.

**KING:** Did you consider him a friend?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I considered him well-disposed. Yes, we go back a long time.

**KING:** Is public life something that you think things like this, forgetting truth or not—that people like Henry Kissinger or others are just not going to come forward in the future? It just isn't worth it?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** You see, the problem with a program like that is this. One of the reasons they go after somebody like me is because I have public recognition. And they get kudos for bringing somebody down. They get no kudos for praising them. So they interview only people that can spread dirt. And you can appeal to nobody except the conscience of the people who put on the show and who have a vested interest in defending it, and that is not a system that is very desirable.

**KING:** All right. Do you think that will make talented people — 60 Minutes and others — less likely to want to serve?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Well, if you can be exposed, as I was, after 20 years of opposition to Iraqi radicalism, to the charge that you're promoting business in Iraq — where I have never done any business of any kind — and when they knew this and never even put on the fact that I had said this to them, then you wonder whether it's worth being in Government.

**KING:** In retrospect, do you think, had you submitted to the interview and said what you just said now, they would have run it?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** If they had given me the same amount of time as you for the same interview technique as you, I would have been eager to go on. But what I did not want to do is let them take a snippet out of a long answer and put it up next to a fellow that I didn't know who was charging me with anything. And given the way electronics work, they can make me look as if I were guilty just by defending myself.

**KING:** Has it had any post effect. Henry? Have you lost any clients?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I can't tell yet, but it has been very hurtful.

**KING:** Have you thought of a lawsuit?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Look, Bill Paley, the founder of CBS—

**KING:** You're on the board of CBS.

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I'm on the board of CBS. Bill Paley was one of my closest friends. I've been executor of his estate. I don't want to hurt CBS, but I also want some recitation and some acknowledgement of the fact that my lawyer sent them memorandum after memorandum to which they did not ever refer except in a 20-second snippet at the end of an 18-minute smear.

**KING:** We'll come right back with Henry Kissinger. We'll start to include your phone calls for the former Secretary of state.

Tomorrow night, David Broder and Bob Woodward, and the very funny Jerry Seinfeld: Terry Anderson on Friday. Oliver North returns next Tuesday. How are we doin' so far? Don't go away.

[Commercial break]

**KING:** Welcome back to Larry King Live — in New York tonight for a full hour with Secretary of State Henry Kissinger.

We go to your phone calls. San Francisco, hello.

**1st CALLER:** [San Francisco, California] Hi. Hello, Dr. King [sic], It's a pleasure to speak with you, and an honor.

**KING:** I'm not a doctor. Kissinger is a doctor. Go ahead.

**1st CALLER:** I understand. It's a wonderful thing to be well thought of in councils of the world, but isn't the real problem in America domestic issues? The problem that we Americans face is the fact that five million Americans signed up for first-time unemployment benefits in the last 16 weeks. Five million Americans are out of work since Christmas.

**KING:** All right, you don't get asked domestic questions often, Dr. Kissinger, so what's going on in this country?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** No, I agree that we have a lot of domestic problems and I think we have to deal with these domestic problems. We don't have the choice of dealing either with domestic problems or international problems because, of course, if our economy and social life is terrible, then it doesn't matter so much what we do internationally, but if we are insecure and there's a constant threat of war, it also is very dangerous for our people. So our leadership doesn't have the choice between domestic and foreign policy. They have to do both and, if they can't do both, they'll fail — they'll fail at both.

**KING:** It's hard, though, to say to the person out of work, "Let me talk to you about helping Russia."

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Very difficult.

**KING:** Yes, but it still has to be done?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** It has to be done. We have to understand why we're helping Russia. And I am not for this unlimited program of aid that some people are talking about. Some humanitarian aid, some technical assistance I favor.

**KING:** Wellington, Kansas, for Dr. Henry Kissinger. Hello.

**2nd CALLER:** [Wellington, Kansas] Good evening. Do you think Mikhail Gorbachev could become politically active in the former Soviet Union if he chose to?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I would be very surprised. Within the Soviet Union, his reputation is not as high as it is outside the Soviet Union. Outside the Soviet Union, people remember the peace he brought. Inside the Soviet Union, they think of the disorganization that exists. But it could happen. Funnily enough, it could happen most likely if there were some sort of authoritarian regime that established itself that then needed somebody to present it to the outside world, and they might ask him then to be president — a figurehead president. I'm not sure he would take it, but that is the condition in which he could come back.

**KING:** So, what will he do? Write and have a think tank—

**Dr. KISSINGER:** No—

**KING:** —and be an American kind of—

**Dr. KISSINGER:** No, I tell you, for people leaving high office it's a painful transition.

**KING:** It's hard not to have power, isn't it?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Well, it isn't so much the power. It's

when you are in high office you know that you're doing
something important and, at the end of the day, you want
to leave your country better off than you found it. And
there's nothing in private life you can do that's as interest-
ing and as fulfilling. I saw this in Mrs. Thatcher; I saw
it— well, I saw it in myself many years ago; and especially
in a man like Gorbachev, who has been at the head of a
very authoritarian system. So I think that he believes that
if he can keep himself alive in terms of publicity, that he
may be able to come back. But I don't know many people
who think that inside the Soviet Union.

**KING:** Do you miss, Henry, being in the hunt — in other words, instead of. "Here's the news today," being the maker of the news today?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** You have to remember, I'm out of office now for three presidential terms. In the first presidential term, in the first two years of the Carter Administration— It is a transition when you pick up a newspaper and you're used to picking up a telephone and saying, "Do this." and you realize that your phone isn't connected with anybody who can do something about it. But now, and after some time, I understood that from now on my role in this country is to think of the middle term.

If you're in Government, you think of the short term and of the tactical, and you're trying to manage day-to-day things. You can never compete — and you should never try to compete — with the Government from the outside on

tics. What you may be able to do is remember that the Government deals with urgent things, but that some of the long-range things they don't have time for. That's what I think I can do.

**KING:** The last time you were with us, you told us that when you dealt with Ross Perot he drove you crazy on his desire to help people in Vietnam, and he thought it could be done yesterday.

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Exactly, and he thought that anything that he considered important should be done by someone and, if that person didn't do it, he would do it.

**KING:** Are you surprised by his thrust into the American political scene?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Well, I think it has two components. One is whatever his personal qualities — which are considerable; but, also, the fact that I think the public is getting restive with a style of politics which is machine-made, geared to public opinion polls, and so worried about the very immediate impact that they don't know who is taking them from where they are to where they will have to go. And I think the style of our elections is getting to be very demoralizing for dedicated people.

**KING:** Do you consider him formidable?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Yes.

**KING:** Will he have a tough time governing if he were President?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I think, an almost impossible time. He wouldn't have a party. He wouldn't have any experience in government. He wouldn't know how to deal with the bureaucracy. And, as I told you last time, I support President Bush.

**KING:** Venice, Florida, with Henry Kissinger.

**3rd CALLER:** [Venice, Florida] Yes, Mr. Kissinger, do you believe that there are any leaders in this country today of the same caliber, let's say, as our founding fathers? And what do you think the founding fathers would say about where our country is going?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Well, you know, this country has been unbelievably lucky that the greatest people they had — with the exception of Lincoln — were almost all at the beginning. And the early group of American leaders— It wasn't just one of them — whether it was Washington, or Jefferson, or Hamilton, or Adams, or Monroe, or Madison. In a small country with, I think, about five or six million population, it is astounding when you read the *Federalist Papers*—

**KING:** Tom Paine, right?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** That's right. And you read the *Federalist Papers*— You know that our Constitution was an accident. They had thought about it, but they came from rural societies and they were on their farms. They had winters to read. They weren't driven by television and the evening news—

**KING:** Polls and—

**Dr. KISSINGER:** —and they could reflect about where they wanted to take their country. And they created a country explicitly dedicated to liberty. The first country — the only country — that's ever been created for that specific purpose.

**KING:** So, except for Lincoln, all the best were then?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Well, we had some great Presidents. I think the two Roosevelt were great Presidents. But this concentration of talent at the beginning was extraordinarily fortunate.

What would they think today? Well, they would think this is a very busy society. And I think they would say, "If you don't know where you're going, every road will get you there." And they'd probably ask us for some road— They'd probably not ask us; they'd probably try to supply some road maps.

**KING:** We'll be right back with Henry Kissinger on Larry King Live. Don't go away.

*[Commercial break]*

**KING:** Our guest is Dr. Henry Kissinger. We're going to go right back to the calls.

What do you think of this wave now of flying commercial? Jim Baker— They're going to ask him to fly commercial. He's flying commercial.

**Dr. KISSINGER:** No, he volunteered to fly commercial.

**KING:** Volunteered. Would you have, Henry?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** No, I didn't.

**KING:** Would you have?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Would I have?. Sure, if necessary. But actually, I don't think it's a great idea because, if the Secretary of State is in some place and there's a crisis, he ought to be able to get back fast and he ought to be on a plane that has communications. And there's such a thing as overdoing it. The Secretary of State has to work hard enough. And it isn't a question of his comfort. It's a question of being in communication with the Government and being able to get back to Washington fast in a crisis.

**KING:** You've studied this thing. Who's the best we've had — present company excluded? Who's the Secretary of states' Secretary of State?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Dean Acheson.

**KING:** We go to Huntington, New York. Hello.

**4th CALLER:** [Huntington, New York] Good evening, Dr. Kissinger. Do you believe that, in view of the neo-Nazi movements that are resurging in Germany— Could Germany — the united Germanys — ever become a threat to the world again?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I don't think so. I think the neo-Nazi movement is a reaction that you find all over Europe to the migration that is going on in the world today. It's a reaction against foreigners, foreign workers, and it's extremely unpleasant. And I think we're going to see a Germany that is going to be more assertive because, now that they are together, they don't have the need so much to justify their existence. But I do not believe that we will see a militaristic, aggressive Germany again. We may find a Germany that will not be as easy to deal with as in the last 20 years.

**KING:** Dumont, New Jersey. hello.

**5th CALLER:** [Dumont, New Jersey] Larry, how are you?

**KING:** Hi.

**5th CALLER:** Dr. Kissinger. I'd like to ask you a question about the current peace talks going on in Northern Ireland. It seems funny to me that the English government won't talk to the people who are actually doing the fighting. What would you say to that?

**KING:** What's your assessment of that situation?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I tell you—

**KING:** You smiled.

**Dr. KISSINGER:** No. I'll tell you why I smiled. I have an Irish wife and she has strictly prohibited me from getting myself into the Irish question because she says the Irish passions are so great that I'm going to get myself into major problems. but—

**KING:** Well, we're being watched in both places — England. Ireland — so—

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I think it's a very tragic situation and the feelings are so strong on all sides. My impression is — but I'm not all that well informed — that they are talking to the Irish government in Dublin. The ones they are not talking to are the IRA, who are blowing them up.

**KING:** Is that as volatile as Arab-Israeli?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** It's as passionate.

**KING:** Maybe not as worldly important.

**Dr. KISSINGER:** It may not be as— It's as passionate as Arab-Israeli, and maybe more so.

**KING:** Really? Because it's deep-seated — religious as well, right?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Deep-seated, religious, and then the foreign— The presence of the British makes it— reduces the incentive for the two Irish parties to get together.

**KING:** And we generally support Great Britain, right? That's been our position?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** We generally oppose what we consider terrorism, and that puts us objectively on the side of Britain.

**KING:** Did you ever get into it when you were Secretary of State?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** No.

**KING:** You sound like you're relieved you didn't.

Bethpage, New York. hello.

**6th CALLER:** [Bethpage, New York] Yes, good evening. Larry — great show — and Dr. Kissinger. Dr. Kissinger, you negotiated for peace talks in Paris to get our Americans home.

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Yes.

**6th CALLER:** You stated that American prisoners of war held in Laos and North Vietnam would be released to us in Hanoi, and there was a statement February 18th in *The Washington Post*— the Pathet Lao says, "No truce, no American POW's." This country negotiated away my comrades-in-arms in Laos, and nobody's ever come home. And I would like your reaction on that, and also the lifting of the trade embargo.

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Well, I think it is possible that—I have no evidence of it, but I do not exclude the fact that in Laos, where things were not extremely well organized, that prisoners were held back in violation of the agreement. And if we ever have any evidence of this, I would be in favor of taking extremely strong action. I am not in favor of lifting the trade embargo until all our demands and all our uncertainties with respect to the POW's have been lifted—have been removed.

**KING:** You think there might still be POW's there?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I don't—

**KING:** Wouldn't they negotiate with us for them?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I cannot see a rational reason why they should hold back POW's without saying they have POW's because, as you point out, having them would—

**KING:** If you kidnap but you don't ask for ransom—

**Dr. KISSINGER:** They don't do them any good unless they negotiate for them. But then, I have to say I have never dealt with a group of people as treacherous as the North Vietnamese leadership.

**KING:** Really? Never?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Never. Courageous, heroic, tough — but they would stop at nothing to achieve their objective.

**KING:** We'll be back with more of Henry Kissinger, more of your phone calls.

Tomorrow night, David Broder and Bob Woodward — we'll talk about many things, including Vice President Quayle — and the very funny Jerry Seidman. Back after this.

*[Commercial break]*

**KING:** I'm so caught up in Dr. Kissinger, I don't know where "Jerry Seidman" came from — except I think I had a dentist named Jerry Seidman once. It's Jerry Seinfeld who'll be with us tomorrow night — the very funny Jerry Seinfeld. [laughs]

With Henry Kissinger — Las Vegas. hello.

**7th CALLER:** [Las Vegas, Nevada] Yes, good evening, gentlemen.

**KING:** Hi.

**7th CALLER:** My question is that, with a shrinking globe and increased interdependence between nations, doesn't it

make sense to de-emphasize the principles of national
overehireignty and try and set up a really strong United Na-
tions with teeth to settle famine, ecological problems, and
border conflagrations?

KING: We're one little planet, Henry.

Dr. KISSINGER: I agree that we should settle environ-
mental questions, conflagrations, and so forth. On the
other hand, when you look at the world — if you look at
Yugoslavia, you look at some of the former Soviet Union —
the fact is that nationalism is growing. Now, it's in many
ways irrational, but it has been tied to the human condi-
tion.

But I agree with the question. For the first time in hu-
man history, there are problems that can only be dealt
with on a global basis, that cannot be dealt with on a na-
tional basis — ecology, environmental questions, global
warming, nuclear issues, issues of this nature. And for the
first time, you have global communication. For all these
reasons, there are new conditions that may enable a more
universal approach than we've known in history.

KING: Should the President go to the Rio conference?

Dr. KISSINGER: He should go to the Rio conference if he
has something to say. He should not go to the Rio confer-
ence if it's simply for publicity.

KING: West Haven, Connecticut, hello.

8th CALLER: [West Haven, Connecticut] Good evening.
Dr. Kissinger, you're wonderful with your knowledge.
"that would be the first three things you would do to in-
late this great country of ours to get back on the track
that it should be?

KING: If we gave you the power, let's say you're— OK, be
king for a minute.

Dr. KISSINGER: [laughs] Well, first of all, let me say
that this country is not on such a bad track. If you go
around other countries and you come here, you can see
that this country is still the best country to live in; the
people are the kindest people in the world; and that, on the
whole, we are doing well. We are not doing as well as we
want to because of our perfectionism.

The first thing I think we need to do with respect to our
domestic situation is to tell our people that a country that
has so many unfulfilled tasks in housing, in schooling, in
infrastructure—that such a country has so many things to
do together that there's no reason why it should have ei-
ther a recession or huge divisions.

Secondly, we should face the fact that not every prob-
lem can be solved immediately, and our politicians should
have the courage to tell the people what really needs to be
done in a realistic time frame. And third — and we are
doing that much: that, we are doing quite well — is to dedi-
cate this country to the global search for peace.

KING: Now, you're chairman of the World Cup, aren't
you?

KISSINGER: Absolutely.

KING: The soccer tournament. You had the stands col-
lapse in France. Are you worried about anything, assum-
ing it comes to this country?

Dr. KISSINGER: No collapsing stands, no. World Cup
will be 24 soccer teams from various nations, from 24 dif-

ferent nations, to the United States, and they'll play for a
month. And the final will have the biggest television
audience — billions of people.

KING: People get really excited at these games.

Dr. KISSINGER: Oh, passionate, and it's a great sport.

KING: Will you give us a favorite? Not your favorite: who
would be favorite to win this?

Dr. KISSINGER: I think it's too early to tell. I always
like to watch Brazil play because they are so elegant. One
of the interesting things about soccer is that the national
character reflects itself—

KING: In the way they play?

Dr. KISSINGER: —in the way the national team plays.
yes.

KING: No kidding?

Dr. KISSINGER: I mean, you watch the Brazilians—

KING: I've never heard that.

Dr. KISSINGER: Yes. If you watch the Brazilians, it
looks like a samba.

KING: Really?

Dr. KISSINGER: The Germans do sort of a war plan.
Everybody attacks, or everybody defends. Everything you
can do with training and preparation they do, but if they're
not ahead in the last 15 minutes they tend to get a little
panicky.

KING: We'll be right back with our remaining moments
with Dr. Henry Kissinger, after this.

[Commercial break]

KING: OK, you got the chance to do weather on television.
Is there anything left in the Kissinger career — anything
you'd like to do you haven't done?

Dr. KISSINGER: Sports.

KING: You want to broadcast a sporting event?

Dr. KISSINGER: That's right.

KING: A soccer game?

Dr. KISSINGER: Soccer game or baseball or football
game.

KING: Baseball? In other words, if the Mets or CBS or—

Dr. KISSINGER: I happen to be a Yankees fan.

KING: —Turner Broadcasting wanted you to do a Braves
game? A Yankees broadcast— If they're watching and
they want—

Dr. KISSINGER: Well, I think they— I think after an in-
ning they would get me off, but I—

KING: But you would sit with Risudo [sp]?

Dr. KISSINGER: Oh, yeah. I'd have a great time.

KING: Thank you. This was a great hour.

Dr. KISSINGER: Thank you.

KING: Dr. Henry Kissinger.

Tomorrow night — back in Washington with David
Broder, Bob Woodward, and Jerry Seinfeld; and then, on
Friday night, a full hour with Terry Anderson.

Jonathan Mann and Susan Rook are standing by to co-
anchor the world news.

Susan, dearest, what's up?

SUSAN ROOK, "WorldNews": Thank you, Larry.

Some L.A. police officers are critical of the police
response to the rioting. New tapes detail their frustration.
Also, the economy — New numbers are out today, includ-