LIFE
PRODUCTIONS

FEB 08 1991

February 4, 1991

Dr. Henry A. Kissinger
KISSINGER ASSOCIATES
350 Park Avenue
New York, New York 10022

Dear Dr. Kissinger,

Thank you again for the interview you gave me for the film I
am producing on the life of Billy Graham. It was a great
interview.

Per your secretary's request, I am attaching a transcript of
our interview. I trust this is helpful.

I wish you every success.

/psm

Attachment

Executive Office
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Production Office
444 Irving Drive • Suite 201 • Burbank, California 91504 • (818) 841-8851 • FAX (818) 841-8853

WARREN: FIRST OF ALL, MR. GRAHAM WANTED ME TO BE SURE AND THANK YOU, AND HE GREATLY APPRECIATES YOUR TAKING THE TIME. THIS IS GOING TO BE USED...PORTIONS IN A DOCUMENTARY WE ARE PRODUCING ON HIS LIFE AS WELL AS FOR ARCHIVES, JUST SO YOU'LL KNOW. COULD YOU BRIEFLY TALK ABOUT YOUR PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH MR. GRAHAM THROUGH THE YEARS, JUST HOW YOU GOT TO KNOW HIM AND SOME THINGS THAT ARE IMPORTANT TO YOU.

KISSINGER: Well, I got to know him, actually...I got interested in him about...must be 30 years ago now when I was working for Nelson Rockefeller, and I had a girl on my staff who was a fanatical devotee of Mr. Graham's, and I thought it was ridiculous, but she convinced me to go to Madison Square Garden where he was preaching, and I frankly thought the whole thing was ridiculous, but I just wanted to see it as a phenomenon, and so I mention this only because I did not go with any previous position to be impressed. So then I was tremendously impressed, and was in fact deeply moved by the way he illicited a response, and to make sure, I went a second time to see what my reaction would be, and again, I was very impressed. Then when I came to Washington, President Nixon knew Mr. Graham, and we went to some meeting of his. We flew down in Tennessee, I think it was...anyway, it was somewhere in the south and again I had the same reaction. So then I made a point of meeting him, and so we've known each other for about 22 years, and of course, I don't

have the same religion but I am very impressed
with him as a spiritual force, as a man who's
views and judgment I value, and we've been
meeting over the years since.

WARREN: I'M SURE YOU'VE HEARD THE CRITICISM OF SOME THROUGH THE YEARS, THAT SOME HAVE CRITICIZED HIM SOMEWHAT FOR MIXING POLITICS AND RELIGION, YET YOU FIND ALMOST PRESIDENTS ANY PERSUASION HAVE SOUGHT HIS COUNSEL, ADVICE, FRIENDSHIP.

KISSINGER: Well, in my experience with him, he doesn't really mix politics and religion. He doesn't give you tactical advice on what to do politically, and he talks about the moral dimension or the issues, and the reason world leaders have sought his advice is precisely because he doesn't try to tell them what they should do tomorrow, but he does try to show them a way of thinking about the problem that adds a new dimension to their thinking. I know this is a fine line, but he walks it very carefully, and I could not say on any specific policy when I've seen him with Presidents that he has said, "You ought to do this," or argued against a particular course of action, but he tries to broaden your horizon and he doesn't obtrude himself. He doesn't call up and say, "You need to talk to me." His strength is that those of us who have dealt with him want to see him, and I can't remember that he's ever taken the initiative.

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WARREN: WHAT ABOUT IN EASTERN EUROPE IN RECENT YEARS HAVE BEEN MOVED TOWARDS PRO-DEMOCRACY MOVEMENTS. MR. GRAHAM HAS BEEN IN THERE PREACHING FOR YEARS TO TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE. WHAT, IF ANY, IMPACT DO YOU THINK THAT'S HAD?

KISSINGER: Well, of course, he...for many of the people under Communist rule, any religious experience is a way for them to indicate the importance of personal conscience and of a realm outside Communist control. I don't doubt that some of these Communist leaders thought they could use Mr. Graham as a counter wave to the dominant Catholic face in, say, Hungary and Poland especially. So that they had an ulterior motive in letting him in...or at least a partially ulterior motive. But whatever their ulterior motive, it didn't work because to the extent that Billy Graham created this focal point of concern, it had to undermine the Communist system even though it's not what he was directly preaching about. So I think he was one of the forces that kept the window open to the human spirit during these oppressive years.

WARREN: THERE WERE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ADVISED HIM NOT TO GO INTO COMMUNIST NATIONS, IN PARTICULAR, CHINA, BUT AS I UNDERSTAND IT, YOU WERE VERY INSTRUMENTAL IN HELPING HIM GO INTO CHINA IN RECENT YEARS.

KISSINGER: Well, I don't think the Chinese are the ideal subjects for a Christian experience but on the other hand, if he was willing to try it, I saw

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every reason to encourage it, and yes, I
was...tried to be helpful at the margin, and I
certainly encouraged him to do it, as I did in
Eastern Europe.

WARREN: WHAT ABOUT 50 YEARS FROM NOW WHEN PEOPLE ARE BEGINNING TO JUDGE BILLY GRAHAM FROM AN HISTORICAL CONTEXT, HOW DO YOU THINK HISTORY WILL SEE MR. GRAHAM?

KISSINGER: Well, they'll see him as a significant moral and spiritual force of our period, in part as a symptom of a period that on the one hand was very materialistic but on the other hand had great spiritual yearnings which he filled. But he's been at it now for nearly half a century and through huge changes of priorities in America and any man who can remain relevant for that long, must be filling a deep human and religious need.

WARREN: ARE THERE ANY OTHER THOUGHTS THAT COME TO YOUR MIND WHEN YOU THINK OF BILLY GRAHAM -- PERSONAL OR OTHERWISE?

KISSINGER: Well, I don't look for...I don't normally look for spiritual guidance from clergymen, certainly not in the evangelical movement, and therefore, my high regard for Billy Graham had to overcome huge hurdles, and it's also lasted now for 20 years, and I think it is due to the essential unselfishness of Mr. Graham, his commitment to his theology and to his values, and that gives him the strength to do what he's doing, and has

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maintained its following through all the ups and downs of the fads that sometimes attach to others.

WARREN: RABBI TANENBAUM RECENTLY HERE IN NEW YORK WAS QUOTED AS SAYING, AND IT WAS A STRONG STATEMENT BECAUSE HE THOUGHT THAT "BILLY GRAHAM WAS PROBABLY THE BEST FRIEND THAT STATE OF ISRAEL HAS HAD IN THE 20TH CENTURY." WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THAT?

KISSINGER: Well, I would say I think certainly on the complex relationship between Christians and Jews, he has played a very, very constructive role, and it's obviously for fundamentalists Christians the fate of Christ is a complex obstacle, and I think he has synthesized the relations between the two religions in a very constructive way. On Israel, I frankly have never had a talk with him.

WARREN: THANK YOU. I'VE GOT EVERYTHING I NEED HERE. YOU'RE SO KIND TO DO THIS.

KISSINGER: Well, I'm great fan of his.

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[L.C.]

**WARREN:** WHAT ABOUT 50 YEARS FROM NOW WHEN PEOPLE ARE BEGINNING TO JUDGE BILLY GRAHAM FROM AN HISTORICAL CONTEXT, HOW DO YOU THINK HISTORY WILL SEE MR. GRAHAM?

**KISSINGER:** Well, they'll see him as a significant moral and spiritual force of our period, in part as a symptom of a period that on the one hand was very materialistic but on the other hand had great spiritual yearnings which he filled. But he's been at it now for nearly half a century and through huge changes of priorities in America and any man who can remain relevant for that long, must be filling a deep human and religious need.

**WARREN:** ARE THERE ANY OTHER THOUGHTS THAT COME TO YOUR MIND WHEN YOU THINK OF BILLY GRAHAM -- PERSONAL OR OTHERWISE?

**KISSINGER:** Well, I don't look for...I don't normally look for spiritual guidance from clergymen, certainly not in the evangelical movement, and therefore, my high regard for Billy Graham had to overcome huge hurdles, and it's also lasted now for 20 years, and I think it is due to the essential unselfishness of Mr. Graham, his commitment to his theology and to his values, and that gives him the strength to do what he's doing, and has

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