TELCONE

Robert Bernstein, Random House/Kissinger

9:37 a.m. - 7/10/73

K: Hello.

B: Mr. Kissinger, Bob Bernstein.

K: Hello, how are you?

B: I'm serving in the lowest office in the land.

K: Which is what?

B: Juror.

K: You'll be meeting a lot of my colleagues.

B: What?

K: I hope you're not meeting my colleagues there.

B: It's the wrong city, unfortunately. (Laugs) Listen I tell you why I'm calling. Today Andre Amalrik who I wrote you about several weeks ago when you might have been away, is going on trial some place in the Soviet Union. He has been denied an attorney. He's finished his prison term. He's being tried from prison. He was not released til the end of it.

K: But for what can you be tried after you've been in prison?

B: He finished his term on May 23rd or 4th, what we understand is that they claim he made anti-Soviet remarks while in prison and they're going to try him for this. According to Sukaroff (?) they have not allowed his attorney to go there to defend him and a committee was formed which I sent you the brief on.

K: Yes, I've got that. Look, I'm having lunch with Dobrynin today.

B: What I think is going to happen is if they do this, then it's a sign of their - even though it's just one man - it's a sign that really there's absolutely no law and you're not dealing with law and, I don't have to preach to you, but what I think is going to happen is that the publishers and the writers yesterday wired Podgorny; the Association of American Publishers wired Podgorny and the Committee for Andre Amalrik wired Podgorny. Those three that I know of. And what I think is going to happen is, if this - what they believe is happening is that the man is just - he's been invited to speak at Harvard and George Washington in September.

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B: As I understand it, he's probably ready to leave the country; he's (cont) had meningitis and been in a coma for several weeks during this sentence of three years and now he's going to be tried without an attorney in some far away place and I think what's going to happen is there are going to be a lot of people in our industry at least, both writers and publishers - important writers, you remember on the committee was Robert Penwaer (?) and John Updike, John Hersey, Harrison Salisbury for starters.

K: Yes.

B: Five Presidents of publishing houses and I believe that they're going to feel that there is no de______ and if there is you know it is questionable - I don't want to be led in some great overstatement to defend this, but what is happening? And who are you dealing with? And what is the value of it? They went into universal copywriting. I just think there'll be a lot of discussion.

K: Well, you know there are two separate problems to some extent. The fact that there is internal repression doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to mitigate the danger of nuclear war.

B: Of course not. Of course not.

K: And I think we have to keep in our mind those two things separate while nevertheless trying to bring about the greatest degree of humanity that is in our power to achieve. You know I don't think those two things should be confused.

B: I agree with that.

K: You can't say that we're going to double our military budget because they're locking up intellectuals.

B: No, I agree with you.

K: But nevertheless I will raise the issue today when I see Dobrynin. I don't want you to say that to anybody.

B: I will not say it to anybody.

K: Because my experience has been that I'm more effective - I mean I got that Jewish tax waived by not making a public issue of it. That doesn't mean you couldn't make a public issue of it.

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B: Well I can't not because--

K: No, no, no, no, it is appropriate and indeed helpful to me to have private groups raise hell.

B: Well we also sent to Porgornie, Brezhnev and Kosygin, we sent the cables and the statements. It has also been delivered by hand to Dobrynin.

K: Good.

B: So he had it all to deliver to them.

K: Well, that's good.

B: And as I say, yesterday the three organizations--they just--the belief is that they got four or five prisoners to testify that he said something and they are just gonna keep him there. Now as I say he's been invited to speak at Harvard and George Washington, and I think a lot will center on what happens to him.

K: Right. Well, I will raise it. You can be sure of that.

B: Thank you very much, I've nothing further to say.

K: Okay.

B: Right.

K: Nice to talk to you.

B: I would like to talk to you again sometime when you are settled down. Maybe we should have another talk on other matters.

K: Yes, I would in fact welcome that. Why don't you let me know when you are down here.

B: As soon as I finish jury duty I'll call you.

K: Good, I would in fact appreciate it.

B: All right, thank you.

K: Thank you.

TelCon
Dr. Kraemer/Mr. Kissinger

9:45 am, July 10, 1973

K: Hello.

Kr: Yes Henry.

K: Kraemer, how are you.

Kr: How are you.

K: I didn't have a chance personally to congratulate you on--

Kr: You are an old batchelor like myself cutting the way he goes. Some people did that as a surprise. I was very touched to get your letter but I assure you I knew nothing of this.

K: Of course you knew nothing.

Kr: And I would have apologized. I've already apologized to several people most from the Chief of Staff here, that were invited--really other things to do.

K: Kraemer it could not have happened to a more deserving person.

Kr: It was very touching. These are charming people who did it. I was very--

K: It could not--

Kr: Backed by your friendly words. Received a note from the Chief of Staff and he opologized that he hadn't come, and was deeply touched. He couldn't say it by the way of the usual common things, but spoke about the brilliancy of the people in the room. So I took my revenge. But that's very nice of you. How are your things going.

K: Well, I was wondering, Kraemer, by any chance are you free tonight. We haven't had a chance to talk and I find that I am free.

Kr: I'll tell you, my friend whom you know, a 73 year old man who sees me every week had asked me to keep this Tuesday open, but he hasn't telephoned me. Now this man fmds my spiritual presence so to speak. You know who it is.

K: Oh, yeah.

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Kr: Right. He's totally ______, he fights like the

K: He's a marvelous man, I see him from time to time. Not often, but I saw him about 2 months ago.

Kr: Could we leave it this way, Henry, I'll call the office of the man and ask if he came back Monday afternoon to phone me. He has not done that yesterday. Then I'll see if I can get out of that. I really--

K: No, no, I understand what the problem is.

Kr: You have very rare evenings. I will try to do it.

K: If it isn't today, it will--

Kr: I will try to do it. You will get in ten minutes or so in your office, I won't bother you. Your office will get--

K: I would like to review one, where the country is in foreign policy, and second--I mean I know where it is but what can realistically be done. And secondly, I also want to discuss with you what I should so now.

Kr: You know my answer beforehand.

K: Well, I'd like to--no, no, that isn't going to be my question.

Kr: Oh, I see.

K: I know that I can't leave now. That's obvious. But still one has to discuss how one can--let's talk about it tonight though.

Kr: In ten minutes your office will get. I will not call you back, but will call your office.

K: Good, fine.

Kr: Very good.

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TelCon

Peter Peterson/Mr. Kissinger

9:58 am, July 10, 1973

K: Hello.

P: Hi, Henry.

K: Pete, I just wanted to make sure that you straightened out the matter of my mad acquaintance.

P: Totally. I told them you would never do such a thing, never had, and it was just ridiculous.

K: Good.

P: And I mentioned it at the Board meeting and everybody smiled. Frankly Henry, I'm not even spreading the rumor around except to about 4 or 5 of our top people. Because you know, the more you talk about something like this, the more it gets confused. But the people who thought you might be involved are now fully satisfied.

K: You know, I wouldn't do this even if I thought it was a worthy cause.

P: I know. And I think--

K: I have the firm rule, you know sometimes people would write to me about matters they have before various government agencies which they might have had meritorious cases, and I've refused to transmit their letters. I've always sent them back saying that if a letter came from my office, that in itself would be a pressure. Even if it's a letter of transmittal.

P: Right. They are completely happy.

K: On this one I think that woman is insane.

P: Right. I think her husband now thinks so too. He's very worried about her behavior apparently.

K: Well it's totally inexcusable.

P: Right. Are you still available Saturday.

K: Yeah.

P: What do you think of the Hay Adams.

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TelCon
Amb. U. Alexis Johnson/Mr. Kissinger

10:57 am, July 10, 1973

K: Hello.

J: Good morning, Henry, welcome back.

K: Thank you Alex.

J: Henry, I raised with Hal while you were gone out there, the question of whether in order to keep the overt records straight I should raise with the Soviets here, through the Embassy, a question of when they want to resume the meetings in Geneva. I have in mind that, ____________ told me about the way they'll probably initially respond to us, but the way was left between Simenon and myself. I would be prepared to come back in July. He said, well he didn't think his government would be able to give him instructions by then. And I said, well how about August. I think we ought to get to work. This is before the Summit. And he said oh, you know, we don't do anything in August, and so it will probably be September. Now I'm perfectly content with September, and I think probably you are too. And it was left that we keep in contact through diplomatic channels on the date for resumptions. My only thought was that we say to the Embassy here that we are waiting on word from them on when they want to resume the meetings there. I have in mind which you told me about how they'll respond, probably respond initially, but I'm just thinking of the overt records.

K: Right. Well, I don't know how they'll respond. My suspicion is that they haven't made up their mind.

J: Well, I thought you expected to get something here before we got something there. Maybe not.

K: No, no. I expect--the way that was left between Brezhnev and the President was they would let us have their tentative channel, they are thinking in our channel here, and--look, I'm having lunch with Dobrynin today. Why don't I raise it with him.

J: In whatever way you think best.

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K: Let me raise it with him, and then let me raise with him also the fact that you might make an official demarche.

J: Yes.

K: Just for purposes of the record.

J: That's right, yes.

K: And let's do it on that basis.

J: All right. Well, I'll wait on word from you after you've seen him.

K: I'd like to--

J: I'd like to have a chance to chat with you but that's less urgent.

K: Yeah, but I would like to talk to you within the next few days. To get some sense of where you think we ought to go.

J: I very much want to do that. I'd like to talk to you before the Verification Panel. I have my own thoughts with regard to what we should be working on and--

K: Well, let's see, of course my office doesn't leave with me my schedule--

J: Maybe if you'd ask them nicely they might give you permission to see me.

K: Well how about after the Verification Panel meeting tomorrow.

J: Well, I wasn't planning to come to that, I could, that's an MBFR meeting isn't it.

K: Yeah. Well, let's see.

J: Well, you can do it after the meeting. All I'm saying is that I wasn't planning to be there unless it would be useful for me.

K: Well, do you want to come in at 11:30. Well, it's up to you, Why don't you come in at 11:30 tomorrow then.

J: All right, Okay. Let's make it at 11:30.

K: And then we'll have a chance to talk.

J: Fine, and you will have talked to Dobrynin in the meanwhile.

K: Good. And also give some thought to the following, Alex. We've been

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thinking of holding an NSC meeting on MBFR, but I am almost of the
view that nothing will help with the Joint Chiefs except some Presidential
expression on SALT. I was wondering whether we could have a half
hour discussion on SALT in that MBFR NSC meeting. Not to get a
decision, but at least some Presidential direction to these maniacs
that SALT is not a way to get increased defense budgets.

J: What would be the timing, before the Verification Panel, I mean before SALT Verification Panel.

K: No, after the SALT Verification Panel. I think towards the end of
next week.

J: Towards the end of next week, at NSC.

K: Yeah, or early the week after that.

J: All right.

K: Maybe Friday next week.

J: Let's talk about it tomorrow then.

K: How we can structure it to get enough of a Presidential push so that these Verification Panel meetings aren't always pulling teeth.

J: And once decisions are made, you know, people go along with the decisions.

K: Yeah.

J: That's what's been more bothersome to me than anything else. They try everything. One reason I've been very reluctant to send stuff back here for clearance or anything because they just block everything I've tried to do.

K: I know. I'm painfully aware of it. It was a luck thing from a domestic point of view that the Russians wouldn't buy any of these proposals. Even though I'll be damned if I understand why not moving their land based missiles would not have been a stupendously good deal for us.

J: I feel the same way.

K: But I think they would have run us out of town if we had accepted it.

J: Yes, I know.

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K: I mean if we had got the proposal we made.

J: Yeah, I know.

K: Because I frankly was prepared to accept the -- I mean it wasn't guidance, but I thought it was a good deal if we could accept the interim agreement limits for a non-MERVing on their part.

J: Yeah.

K: It's just a waste of time to discuss because they are so determined to MERVEthat we are not going get that deal.

J: Are they really going to MERV.

K: Oh, yeah.

J: You know, I've always had a little sneaking question in the back of my mind as to whether they were going to MERV.

K: They are gonna MERV, and I have--

J: Let me say, if we could have got the -- the freeze on MERV as we proposed, I would jump at the interim agreement level.

K: That's what I mean.

J: Oh, yeah, oh I'd jump at that.

K: But I think they are determined to MERV and I really want to talk to you. What the hell, we can do under those conditions.

J: All right. Okay, I'll see you tomorrow Henry.

K: Right.

J: Okay, at 11:30.

TelCon
Sec. Butz/Mr. Kissinger

11:20 am, July 10, 1973

K: Hello.

B: Henry, two things. The letter from Brezhnev to the President about the purchase of grain. That letter has not yet been received I understand from Col. Kennedy, and I think that's well.

K: Well, what we have done is to say that letter is acceptable the way it is written, but it's not yet time to--that we would actually exchange it at the end of the month.

B: Okay. The reason I raised this question, as you know, we put this embargo on sardine exports and we are getting a whale of a lot of flak from abroad, and I think there is a lot of substance to the objections being raised. We're getting our July 1 crop report out this afternoon at 3:00 or 4:00 o'clock and it may well be when that comes out, I know we are going to get a lot of pressure, to do the same thing on corn. We'll have to do it on wheat because wheat and corn are substitutable on the international feed markets. All we need is something like this with great reluctance, Henry. It ruptures our chance abroad it seems to me, for a dependable supplier of these commodities. I think it must make your job more difficult.

K: It's impossible.

B: All right. At this point I need your help. We've got divided opinion around here about the advisability of these embargoes like this. The cost of living council aided and abetted by the Council of Economic Advisers is strongly on the side of putting export licensing, I don't give a damn what you call it, on corn.

K: I'm violently opposed to it.

on

B: If you do it/corn, it must be done on wheat because if you can't buy corn, you'll buy wheat for feed. It's easily substitutable. Their objective is to beat the price of wheat down in this country and you do it by increasing the size of our carry-out by June 30, 1974. We are currently tied in at a carry out per year of 40 million bushels whichb is permissable. Somebody in the cost of living cost here over there and the Council of Economic Advisers has said to keep down the cost of wheat to what they call an acceptable level in this country by having a carry out of 600 million bushels. Now in the current world situation

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as well as domestic situation, I think it's unconscionable to sell a
carry out of 600 million just to beat the domestic price down, and
tantalize our people around the world. You can't do it on corn without
wheat, or wheat without corn.

K: No, I agree with you.

B: I need your help on this Henry.

K: Frankly, we are pretty well committed to exchanging those letters at some convenient time.

B: Okay. Now then, if we do stop the export embargo on wheat and corn it's make receipt of that letter a great difficult thing for us politically and a very difficult thing for us internationally. It's not alone with the Russians, it's with our regular customers--with the Japanese. I'm going to Japan this week with that group. It's going to be difficult to stand up over there in the face of what we've done.

K: But, whom do I deal with on this.

B: Get to George, George is on our side on this, and I'd get to the
President if you can.

K: Oh no, I can get to the President. Now what you have to do Bill is not to cave without telling me.

B: All right, I won't do that, but the pressure get kinda terrific, but I think you've got to get to the President. Part of the trouble is that Herb Stein and his people and John Dunlap have taken the President's price freeze as a command that we are going to hold the line on food prices. Meat prices is being the sensitive thing. So, Henry, they are going to present to the President tomorrow I understand Phase IV which means they are gonna take fruits and vegetables off the price freeze. That could be a pass through cost. That would take meat off the control list. They said they won't do that because we are going to beat down the price of feed grain and make meat production profitable. But you beat down the price of feed grains by use of the export embargo. Which puts us right back into the same problem we got into with soybeans. When you do it with soybeans you've got to it with oils. Oil products, peanuts and every other kind of oils and fats. There's no end to this thing. If they push us into doing this on corn, you must do it on wheat or vice versa. I think it puts us in an impossible posture. I'd like to wait a while on this deal if we can. The heart of the problem is that Stein

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and Dunlap has taken the President's order to hold the line.

K: Okay, I'll move on that.

B: And I think if you can get word to the President and talk about the
various international impact in this thing he'll understand. Secondly,
we received a letter the other day about participating in the agricultural
attache conference.

K: Yeah, I'll attend those.

B: And I'll appreciate it very much if you could do that.

K: Good.

B: We'd like to have you there. Henry, I appreciate your help on this
other.

K: Fine. Bye.

B: Thank you.

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TELCORN

Senator Mansfield/Mr. Kissinger

11:30 a.m., July 10, 1973

M: Hello, Henry.

K: Hello, Senator. How are you?

M: Welcome home!

K: Thank you.

M: How are you feeling?

K: I feel fine. I had a good rest out there.

M: Good. Any chance of seeing you sometime soon?

K: Certainly. When would you like to do it?

M: At your convenience.

K: Let me get my calendar here -- Let me see -- I could do it this afternoon sometime, say between 4:00 and 5:00, or I could do it tomorrow in the morning if you'd like to.

M: Suppose I go down about 5:00?

K: At 5:00 today.

M: Or in the morning, whichever comes first.

K: I have somebody coming in at 5:00 but we could do it at 5:30.

M: Well, or do it tomorrow morning. What time would be most best?

K: Oh, any time after 9:00.

M: 9:30.

K: 9:30.

M: Okay.

K: Is it convenient for you to come by? Otherwise, I'll come up to see you.

M: Oh, no; I'll be down to see you.

K: Good.

TELCON
Sander Vanocur/Mr. Kissinger

12:58 p.m., July 10, 1973

K: Hello.

V: Henry.

K: Sandy, how are you?

V: Fine, how are you?

K: Okay.

V: Listen, before you leave again could I talk to you once more about this
Conference because it's just about at the completion stage.

K: Sure.

V: You know the one in October.

K: When do you want to do it?

V: Any time at your convenience. I'm here all the time this summer.
This week or next week.

K: You want to come in -- let's see -- late today, about 7:00?

V: 7:00. I was going to see the "Waltz of the ........."

K: Well, then go see it. No, no; no reason not to see it. I'll have to
call you then.

V: You know, if I could do it at quarter at 7:00.

K: No, I have somebody here that will take a bit. Well, we could do it
tomorrow sometime.

V: All right. Should I call your office?

K: Yeah, call my office in the morning.

V: All right. Who should I talk to, Dick Campbell?

K: Yeah.

V: All right, fine. Thank you. Bye.

K: Good. Bye.

wgh

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TelCon

Joe Califano/Mr. Kissinger

6:30 pm, July 10, 1973

K: Hello.

C: Henry, it's Joe.

K: How are you.

C: I'm all right, how are you.

K: I owe you an answer if that's what you're--

C: Yeah, I hate to bug you.

K: I've got somebody studying this ______ report. Can I give you an answer tomorrow.

C: Oh, that would be terrific.

K: I do want you to know I'm doing something about it.

C: Wonderful. I'm going to be in New York this weekend and I'm gonna see the--

K: Well before you go this weekend, I'll give you my judgment. I

C: And they just want to, you know, Dave and ______

K: I have been remiss, I should have said yes or no, and I'll call you tomorrow or the day after.

C: Okay

K: Good, Joe.

C: How's everything going for you.

K: I cannot forget that meeting you've forgotten in front of the San Souci when I said the Democratic party will have a hell of a time when you said they'll get well on Watergate. You remember.

C: Yes, I do.

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TELCON

Dr. Graubard/Mr. Kissinger

7:05 p. m., July 10, 1973

K: Hello

G: Oh, hello, Henry.

K: Hello, Steve, how are you?

G: I'm well and I hope your California trip was good.

K: Very good.

G: The children well?

K: Fine.

G: And you had a good time or at least some of it was good; you worked a lot.

K: No, I had a good time. I had a very good time.

G: Good, good. These are my last days here before I go to Italy and other places.

K: Oh, really?

G: Yeah. I'm going to work near Valdajno (sp?) with ________ on something I've been doing that I haven't had a chance to talk to you about. Mostly a book which we're editing. But I just wondered what your life was like this week. Whether there would be any chance to see you?

K: [Oh, Jesus Christ]

G: If anything. You've come back to a desk full of work I'm sure.

K: Yeah, unbelievable.

G: I can fit in almost anything you can.

K: Well, you want to come over at 8:00 for half an hour tonight?

G: That would be difficult for one reason, that there is a former student of mine is coming by and I don't know that I could reach him before.

K: No, well, then don't do it.

Prof. Graubard

2

G: Yeah, that would be difficult. It's too close to when he's coming and if he had left the office, I couldn't get him. How's tomorrow?

K: No. Are you going to be here Thursday?

G: Yeah.

K: Well, let's meet late in the day on Thursday, say around 5:00 - 5:30.

G: All right. Should I check with your office.

K: Check with me in the morning.

G: Okay, 5:00 or 5:30.

K: Good.

G: Okay. I'll check with you on Thursday morning.

K: Good.

G: Okay. Good, I look forward to it, Henry.

K: Bye.

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TELCORN

Julie Eisenhower/Mr. Kissinger

7:45 p.m., July 10, 1973

E: Thank you for returning my call.

K: How are you?

E: Fine. My father would like Danny Kaye to perform for the Shah of
Iran and he told Paul Keyes this and Paul Keyes thought that perhaps
Danny Kaye would consider it, you know, more if you asked him. Would
you be willing to do that or do you not want to have to be asking him?

K: No, I don't mind asking him but I can tell you now he won't do it.

E: Oh, I see. Well, then let's not even ask him.

K: Because I once asked him in general when your father told me that he
wanted him to perform at the White House.

E: Right. And he doesn't care . . .

K: And he told me that he hasn't got a routine now.

E: Oh, I see.

K: Or an orchestra.

E: Right.

K: I'll be glad to ask --

E: He doesn't have a show, exactly.

K: I'll be glad to ask him.

E: Oh, I think you've probably covered it if he's already told you that he
doesn't have --

K: Well, it wasn't a specific proposal then. Why don't I --

E: I don't want you to have to -- I know you're personal friends and I know
you don't want to have to put a friend --

K: Oh, I don't mind, I'll call him.

E: Well, if --

K: I'll call him and let you know.

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TELCONE

Danny Kaye/Mr. Kissinger

7:55 p.m., July 10, 1973

HK: Hello.

DK: Henry.

HK: Danny, how are you?

DK: How are you?

HK: Okay. Where are you?

DK: I'm in New York. I just came down from Montreal yesterday. I had to go up and broadcast that baseball game which was extremely dull but --

HK: Not when you were explaining I'm sure.

DK: (laughter) We were doing some crazy things. Anyway, I got here this morning and I'm going to run out and have dinner now with some friends of mine. I'll be here most of the week. Are you coming up?

HK: I don't think I'm coming up. Do you want to come down?

DK: Maybe. Maybe I'll come down -- Where are you going to be over the weekend, Henry?

HK: I'll be in Washington probably. Or at least Saturday I'll be here, I'm not sure about Sunday.

DK: Well, what I might do instead of leaving from here, what I might be able to do is come down there and then go from there right home or go from there to San Francisco or something and then go on home. I'll call you during the week.

HK: Call me during the week. Danny, what I'm calling you about is the President -- I've been raving so much about your various toasts -- the President wondered whether you wanted to do something at a dinner he's giving for the Shah of Iran on July 24th. I'm not urging it, I'm just transmitting the request.

DK: July 24th I'm going to be in Europe, Henry.

HK: You are?

DK: Yeah, I have to leave here and I've got to go over to Europe --

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Danny Kaye

HK: It isn't that I wouldn't be delighted to have you perform at the White House, I just didn't want to --

DK: No, that I'm not going to do. No, I really don't want to do that.

HK: I just didn't want you to -- I didn't want to exploit a personal relationship.

DK: No, no. As far as performing, that's out of the question, I don't want to do that.

HK: Right.

DK: Because I've got to get too many people together and it's not the same, Henry, as getting up at a dinner, you know, and talking.

HK: Of course.

DK: Seeing what has happened before and then saying --

HK: No, what he had in mind is a performance afterwards.

DK: No, that I can't do because first of all, the man who worked with me for 25 years, you know, recently died about a month ago -- Mike Cannabis (sp? and to go and to start and get people together and all that, it would be a whole big thing to perform -- actually to stand up and perform that way, I can't put it together.

HK: Right. No, no; I understand, Danny, and I really -- I just couldn't refuse to call you.

DK: No. Well, tell the President I would be delighted to see him or meet with him or whatever at some thing but it's very difficult for me to perform -- formally performing is very -- I can't get it together.

HK: Well, you didn't do badly at that John Ford Dinner and if that wasn't formally performing.

DK: Well, that was something else again. That was really getting up -- you know, come on, we had a whole group, you know. We had a whole bunch of singers; we had a whole choir thing; and only did one thing. The Shah of Iran I am not too crazy about doing it for anyway because I couldn't get to see him when I was on the UNICEF mission in Tehran.

HK: Oh, really?

DECLASSIFIED
Authority EO 12958
By NARA Date 6-8-04

Danny Kaye

3

DK: Yeah. But anyway, that's beside the point.

HK: Let's not worry about that.

DK: No.

HK: They will no doubt come back to you some other time.

DK: No, no, no -- I don't mind. You know, the thing that you did Friday night or the night with the French Ambassador or with the Chinese Ambassador -- that kind of thing is marvelous. I enjoy doing that because something always happens where you can kind of, you know, set the tone for the evening and make it light and charming.

HK: Well, you put so much love into it. You really were so marvelous.

DK: Well, I think they had a good time.

HK: They had a marvelous time.

DK: That kind of thing I really don't mind doing, to stand up, you know, as a performer in a room -- I really can't do that anymore. You know, that's why I don't play in cafes anymore.

HK: Oh, really?

DK: No, I don't do that any more. I haven't done it in some years. You know, it's quite different when you do a show on the stage or something like that.

HK: Yeah, I understand very well, Danny. And I hope to see you.

DK: Well, of course you will! I'll either come down -- There's no way you can come up, huh?

HK: Well, I'm not sure about it. In fact, I just got back last night so I'm not absolutely sure about any of my plans yet.

DK: Yeah. When are you leaving, Henry? For China?

HK: Early August.

DK: Well, I will be back here again possibly -- No, I see the next time I come I'll be going over the Pole so what I'll try to do is I'll try to get down and see you at the end of this week.

HK: Right.

TELCON

Admiral Moorer/Mr. Kissinger

7:57 p. m., July 10, 1973

M: Hi, Henry.

K: Tom, how are you?

M: Yes, sir. You know I was talking to you this afternoon about this
mine hunting as opposed to mine sweeping.

K: Yeah.

M: And I just talked to the people out there again after I got back. The
problem is this -- they have been unable, absolutely unable, to get the
North Vietnamese to give them the information that they are supposed
to give them as to where they, the North Vietnamese, think the mines
are. And secondly, now some of the radius antennas are down. So if
we really made a big effort to do this thing, I'm not sure at this point
that we can finish it by the 18th. If they haven't complied with their
side of the bargain, I just think we ought to just tell them we're not going
to do it and we're going home.

K: That's fine with me.

M: All right. I mean, hell, we've stonewalled the thing right on through
It will take us three days now to put these radius -- they are devices that
permit the mine sweepers to locate themselves within a foot or so and
put them in and they couldn't start for about three days and then it would
take at least 6 or 8 days to finish it so they are dragging their feet on this
for some time now.

K: The North Vietnamese?

M: Yes. They say they won't give us this information, you know, that they
are obliged to give us.

K: But they probably don't have it.

M: Well, they may not have it but they won't say they don't have it. They
just say they won't -- They never have said they don't have it; they just
say they won't give it.

K: Yeah.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E0 12958
By NARA Date 6-8-74

Admiral Moorer/Mr. Kissinger

2

M: So I think rather than get involved in a situation where they claim we did a half-way job, it's better to be in a position to say: Well, we were prepared to do it but you never did give us the information to permit us to do it.

K: Yeah. Okay, I agree with you.

M: Rather than let them accuse us of doing a half-way job --

K: I agree with you.

M: Okay. Right.

K: Tom, as long as I've got you on the phone. Hello --

M: Yeah.

K: What we want Weyand to do is to make sure that they get enough equipment that if we stretch the point of one-to-one, I wouldn't worry about that.

M: All right. Well, he knows about that and I'm going to talk to him on the phone here in a few minutes.

K: Okay, good.

M: Right.

K: Thank you, Tom.

M: Bye.

wgh

TelCon
Paul Nitze/Mr. Kissinger

11:56 am, July 11, 1973

K: Hello.

N: Henry?

K: Yes, Paul, how are you.

N: I was wondering whether you might be free for lunch tomorrow.
Or some other time if that's not convenient for you.

K: Tomorrow I'm not free, but I would love to see you.

N: Is there any time that would be convenient.

K: Let me get back to you and let's try for a lunch next week.

N: That would be great. Good, Henry, I'd like to see you.

K: Good. We'll call you if not, let's have a drink at the end of the day.

N: That would be fine.

K: Good, but we will definitely meet next week.

N: Okay, fine Henry.

K: Good, bye.

N: Bye.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority EO 12958
By CO NARA Date 6-8-91

TELCON

Dobrynin/Kissinger

12:30 p.m. - 7/11/73

D: Hello Henry.

K: How do you know it is me?

D: I have some feeling, you see. This is important. (Laughs)
This is already for three weeks . . . . . red line or hot line.

K: I tried to call you last night but you were probably out with one of your girlfriends.

D: Oh yes, you are right. Yesterday my wife and I went outside
Washington up til 11 o'clock. So you sometimes - she come here and
then she go back to Pioneer Point so we decided to have a nice evening.

K: I see. With probably one of your Democratic senator clients.

D: (Laughs) No, no, no, no. It was just two of us, nobody else.

K: I see. Well, I have to check with the FBI whatever

D: This is 100% the truth.

K: I believe you. I don't think they're following you anymore.

D: My impression is they don't.

K: I think they're following Joe Kraft now. He's more dangerous.

D: (Laughts) Well, I think he was always dangerous and rather hypocrite
and a small figure but trying to be big one.

K: Totally treacherous.

D: Exactly. I know him rather well.

K: Well, I think he's a little crazy.

D: He really is crazy and he try to be big one. But he is not.

K: Now Anatol, you were so skillful yesterday.

D: I was?

DECLASSIFIED
Authority: E012058
By: MWAPD
Date: 06/04/73

DECLASSIFIED
Authority EO12058
By: N.W. Sabin 00404

2

K: On SALT, that I don't know if I ever made the point that we are waiting for you - you know Brezhnev said that you and I were going to have some preliminary talks before the actual negotiations and I wondered if you hadn't been jabbing me all the time - I wanted to tell you that we're waiting for you to make some concrete observations. I mean I'm going to authorize Johnson to approach you about resuming the formal talks but it will be done in a low key way.

D: Well, I understand.

K: And you don't have to be under any compulsion to start them.

D: No, no, no, I will just listen because I don't know now what Semonov is - whether he plans his vacation or not, otherwise I don't see any difficulties.

K: But don't you think we should have some talks?

D: Yes, but do you have any specific observation after they finish this first stage of work?

K: But we've put a number of specific proposals to you to which you've never replied.

D: But you see your proposals are really, look so very much to your advantage.

K: Well, do you want me to make proposals to your advantage?

D: Yes, exactly.

K: No, no, but couldn't you make some observations of what it is you can consider and what it is you can't consider just so that we have something to react to. It's awfully hard for me to change proposals for which we've never had a reply.

D: But really all your proposals you make are there already on the table there.

K: What we would like are some observations from you on the MIRV question. Not that you agree with us, but something that enables us to get a discussion started.

D: Well you see on MIRV question, really, it looks to me my reaction, and this is not official reaction, but I think this one for us it looks to us just one to stop our development.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority: E01205
By: N.A.A. Doy
Date: 04/04/74

3

K: Well, that

D: One sided and

K: No, no, but another possibility is that you destroy 60 SS-9s the first year and then we go on from there. We take that very seriously.

D: Well, Henry, let's put it

K: But what I mean is, the trouble is we've made a proposal to you. You think it's one-sided. I understand that, because it is one-sided. So then, could you - I'm not even asking for a counterproposal, I'm just asking for something that enables me to react to it. You see if you were to say you want so many MIRVs, or you want equal limits, or anything at all that I can deal with. I'm not saying you have to accept even as a basis for discussion what we put to you but just enough to get a discussion started. Because right now we don't really know which way to move. We can't change our proposals since we haven't heard anything from you. I cannot go to my associates and say we've got to change the proposals.

D: Now, couldn't you say on the MIRV question really.

K: No, tell me you don't want to discuss MIRV and say there's some other area you want to discuss.

D: Well there was a proposal make there but of course it was put in a very broad line. Your delegation and our delegation

K: Well, we'll never get forward that way.

D: No, no, I understand. But our situation rather is how to narrow this if possible in order to begin on some other things. Well, may I put it this way - I will check with Moscow about this one.

K: You see in '71 you said you must have only defense and then we said no it has to include offense; then we could make a compromise on us. You know on a treaty on one and an interim agreement on the other. Right now we're in no position to make a compromise because we don't really know what you have in mind. I think myself, if you want my frank opinion, that we have to modify our MIRV position in the light of what you told me in Zavidovo but we don't really know in which direction to move until we get some authoritative expression from you. So we're not going to put it on a take-it-or-leave-it basis.

4

D: No, I understand. Henry, let me put it this way - I will check with Moscow. I am not so quite sure quite frankly that by next meeting with you on Tuesday I will have an answer because it's a rather complicated issue, but I will try to get it. If not, I'm prepared to look through because I have some ideas about . . . that I can talk about on a private basis on my own.

K: Just think but loud.

come--

D: Maybe there will come a simple kind of analysis, but will do for the time being on this stage, but I hope that within two or three weeks I will get it. But I will try to get it before meeting, but I'm not so sure I will.

K: That's all right. I mean, it doesn't have to be--

D: You just understand because of the complexity of the problem, / they won't give me answer in such good time.

if

K: Secondly, we were very impressed with Brezhnev's speech yesterday.

D: I think it was good.

K: The Vietnamese delegation, and I wanted you to know we consider that --and again, what I wanted to say yesterday, but what I think was implicit is, I think that the atmosphere that developed in the Summit here, we will certainly carry through in our relationships and we will not play little games of needling you. You know, on that subject that you were concerned about.

R: Yeah, NSSM.

K: I think you can be sure that nothing of that kind is going to happen even if such a proposal were made to us.

D: Oh, if it will make it you will do it.

K: If it were made, since I cannot reject something--

D: I know, you will say you will consider, but--

K: Just short of a really cataclysmic change in our relationship. I cannot not now conceive that we would do it.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority
10-01265
Date
10-01-90
By
WW

5

D: I understand.

K: Certainly not without the fullest discussion with you.

D: I understand.

K: But there is no such formal proposal now. And I think you can really
ease concerns on -- in that respect in Moscow.

D: Well, yesterday I sent a telegram but when I put it delicately you would
now--I didn't know how exactly to present it, but

K: The word now means it has not been proposed to us

D: I know, yes.

K: But I can assure you we will not propose it.

D: No, I know, but even if they would propose it--

K: If it will propose it, I consider it 95% improbable that we would do it.

D: I understand.

K: But since I'd have to look, you know, it's very hard to give it total --

D: You wouldn't say without my knowing what is really up to.

K: Exactly.

D: It's clear, it's rather a ____ discussion when you look at them--but
you put it that we will be in touch. You know Brezhnev will--you know
his feelings about poses, so it will be great disappointment if something
happened along those lines.

isn't

K: Well, but you know, it's usual for us to show notes in such a delicate
situation.

D: I understand. So I think it will be--

K: I would really - if we had a complete proposal before us I could tell
you flatly yes or no. But in respect to a hypothetical thing, it may
never happen, it's a little harder to do.

D: I understand.

6

K: But it is not--if I consider it really extraordinarily improbable.

D: I understand. And that was one of the things I was feeling in the meeting I know what feelings Brezhnev left, and not only this and he spoke with me twice and I -- with him a conversation here in Embassy, and he gave me his impressions and I have a very clear instruction, and this was very clear for me. I could very authoritively say that nothing is going to happen of the nature you suggest might happen. I said it is not from our side.

K: No, well it not be

D: From this I could guarantee.

K: No, I can guarantee you it --

D: Even not 95%, but 100%. I go even further than you.

K: No, that I can guarantee you 100%. I practically can guarantee you the other thing. It's just--I can almost certainly--well I don't want to say something when I haven't even seen a proposal.

D: I don't want you to go even to a statement, because I understand.

K: But what I'm trying to tell you is it's something reassuring rather than the opposite.

D: Yes, this I understand. I think it's a good thing Henry.

K: But you know when I talked to the President yesterday he wanted to make sure that I had mentioned to you, which I hadn't actually done. The attitude with which we are pursuing our policy, and this is what I wanted to.

D: And then yesterday you give your knowledge of his thoughts.

K: Oh, yes, of course. I mean what I told you -- he wanted me to make sure that I emphasize to you the general atmosphere with which he will conduct his relationships to you, to Brezhnev. And they will be in the spirit of all their discussions.

D: I understand. I think this is important.

K: And the very cooperative attitude so you will not be surprised by unexpected moves on your part. And that you can definitely count on.

D: I understand. Because I am now much more in touch with Brezhnev than with telegrams. He takes a much more interest in American affairs than before.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority EO 102957
By P.W. Mains DOD 00304

K: And on the Cambodia matter you know our views, so anything that can be done there to find a--

D: But you can put your things in two or three words, which really, one, two, three, four, would you sum up.

K: What we want is an arrangement in which the Phnom Penh government is represented. We want first the ceasefire, a transitional arrangement in which the Phnom Penh government--

D: A transitional arrangement in what way.

K: In the form possibly for coalition government in which the various --all the three groups are represented, in which whether or not Sihanouk returns really depends on the balance of forces. We will not oppose it but we will not push it. And on that we could have an understanding with each other, and with the North Vietnamese. After that we would let the political evolution take its course. We think this permits the political realities in Cambodia to assert themselves. It permits us to disengage and it permits a neutralist, but not an anti-North Vietnamese/ Cambodia to develop on the model of Laos. And it's a question then really of how much people want to push us.

D: I understand.

K: And if we get pushed too much we'll find some way of--

D: I know, you don't like to be pushed.

K: And we have never been without resources.

D: There are some possibilities.

K: That's right.

D: Okay, Henry.

K: Okay. This is our basic proposal and if Brezhnev--and we really think that it shouldn't be contrary to anybody else's basic interest. We recognize the political realities.

D: Yes. What difficult to find transitional arrangement.

K: That's right. The ceasefire for example could be for, say 90 days.

D: Is it must?

K: Yeah, that is really quite important. We attach significance to it as your foreign minister would say.

TELCOM

Senator Javits/Mr. Kissinger

2:25 p.m., July 11, 1973

K: Hello, Jack, how are you?

J: Henry, one matter that I did forget to take up with you is this -- you remember we talked about a US-Japan use of some of the proceeds of the Okinawa reversion --

K: Yeah.

J: For joint cultural purposes. Now I have a bill pending on which the State Department has said that/while they wouldn't like to take any money out of the Okinawa reversion funds, they would like to devote something like $19 million in so-called Garyola (sp?) funds for that purpose.

K: Oh, yeah.

J: Now at the time when you and I were talking the Emperor was still here and we thought it would be a very nice thing to announce then. Since that time the fellow is going to come as a Prime Minister and question whether the very same thing we wanted to do respecting the Emperor could not be done respecting the Prime Minister.

K: That's an interesting charge.

J: You may want to look into that.

K: Let me look into that.

J: Yeah. It just struck me that with a favorable report from State, I can probably move this whenever you press the green light. Now another thing that could be done if you don't want substantive law immediately would be to get a [sense ?] resolution of the Congress saying that it is essential to Congress that the President should work this out with Tanaka.

K: I see. Let me call you about it before the end of the week.

J: Look into it anyhow, that's the only thing I wanted to prompt you to do.

K: Right.

J: Thank you so much.

K: Good. Thank you, Jack.

wgh

※

TELCOM

Cong. Heinz/Mr. Kissinger

3:00 p.m., July 11, 1973

K: Hello.

H: Hello, Henry.

K: Yes, how are you.

H: John Heinz, sorry to bother you. Thank you very much for coming back to us, wherever you were the last week or two. Did the Western White House ever give you the message of my original call?

K: Yeah, about the Committee.

H: Is it possible to obtain an introduction to the Delegation here at the Hotel, the PRC. Delegation.

K: Sure! Why not?

H: Because if so, what Paul Rogers would like to do -- he and Ancher Nelson, the ranking Republican, would like to go down and talk with them and see if they could get them interested in inviting the Committee to China to study public health and environment.

K: Okay. Let me -- We'll pass the word to them.

H: All right.

K: And then we'll let you know when they are ready to see you

H: All right. Fine. Could you call back to Ancher Nelson's office?

K: Okay.

H: Okay. Congressman Nelson. Whoever does that.

K: Right.

H: All right. Thanks so much, Henry.

K: Nice to talk to you.

H: Nice to talk to you. Bye, bye.

wgh

TELCOM

Frank Mankiewicz/Mr. Kissinger

3:05 p.m., July 11, 1973

M: Henry.

K: We haven't gotten so weak yet that it's safe for you to call me here.

M: I noticed however a very subtle indication and I wish I were still a journalist, I'd make a great deal out of it, was that in the first term you were known over there as Dr. Kissinger.

K: And what is it known --

M: And they now say "Mr. Kissinger is returning your call."

K: Well, that shows that --

M: I Don't draw any conclusions from it, I just call Rollie and Bob and let them do what they wish with it.

K: In another year it will be "Kissinger."

M: That's right, that's right, that's right. (laughter) Did you --

K: Oh, about Blake.

M: Yeah, that's all I'm calling you about.

K: Right. I haven't had a chance to do anything yet but I'm seeing Rush this afternoon at a meeting --

M: Could you wait just a minute, Henry -- wait a sec. Sorry

K: I'm seeing Rush at a meeting this afternoon --

M: I can't remember what job Rush has now.

K: He's the Deputy Secretary of State.

M: That's right, he's not at Defense any more.

K: No.

M: Yeah. You know, I was talking to Blake about it. Let me just fill you in a little bit. He says that -- See what happened is he came here I guess to go on to the Policy/Planning Staff.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority EO 12958
By JG MARA Date 6-8-84

Frank Mankiewicz

2

K: Yeah.

M: Now the guy that ran that was a fellow named Carbou and since Blake
was apparently picketed for that, Carbou has been made an Ambassador.
to somewhere like Nepal.

K: Yeah. Cargo, not Carbou.

M: Cargo, sorry. Typically of State, they now say: Well, why don't we wait until the new fellow comes in which will be three or fours months and let him pick his own people. And Blake detects a real weakening of that staff generally as a policy making thing. He'd love to see it become something more as it used to be but whether it's ever going to be or not or what the people have in mind for it, I don't know. But the impression he says he got yesterday is that it may get downgraded anyway. I just pass that on, I don't know.

K: Right.

M: I don't know. You know, there was a time when that was an important
position.

K: Well, I frankly don't know why anyone would want to join the Policy/Planning Staff. Now in my 5 years here, I have never seen a paper from the Policy/Planning Staff.

M: Really?

K: They just don't send it over here.

M: Well, see he may be right. There was a time when it meant something.

K: Oh, hell, in the early '50s --

M: Paul Nitze and --

K: Oh, when they had Kennon, Nitze --

M: Yeah.

K: Even Bowie, much as I disliked him, it was still a serious position.

M: Yeah. Well, I wrote you originally merely calling Blake to your attention because I think he's a hell of a thinker. He's a very systematic fellow and he's been around a lot.

By 09 NARA Date 6-8-04

Frank Mankiewicz

3

K: What is his specialty, economics?

M: Economics, yeah.

K: What is it that you really want? Should I push him for the Policy/Planning Staff or should I just see that he gets taken care of over there?

M: Well, you see they're offering him Economic Counselor in Kuala Lumpur or something and I have a feeling that even at the Policy/Planning Staff he's doing the country more good.

K: Oh, that I'm sure of.

M: I would say that if you needed somebody with that kind of specialty and who knew the European finance people, you might think about it.

K: Well, let me take a look at it.

M: But at least on Policy/Planning he's sort of available, you know, in Washington if something does come up.

K: I will talk to Ken Rush this afternoon and I shall look at him also.

M: Okay. He spent three years in [Bern ?].

K: Right.

M: And did the Bank Treaty and a number of other things there. And he's I think got some pretty good experience but as I say, the thing that impresses me is that he's so rare among these SSOs that have been around for a while in that he approaches each problem sort of with some kind of interest and you know.

K: That's unheard of.

M: And sees, you know, things to be done. And has really very good analytic powers, which -- you know, in other words he doesn't say what's the normal way to go at it. He's still after 20 years in the service excited and, you know, concerned and makes his, you know.

K: Yeah.

M: Brightens the corner of where he is. And it just seemed to me a hell of a good piece of manpower, that's all. Maybe he's wasted on Policy/Planning but he's sure as hell be more wasted as Economic Counselor in Kingston or Kuala Lumpur or somewhere. Or out in Nairobi.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E012958
By NARA Date 6-8-04

Frank Mankiewicz

4

K: Yeah. I'll get on it right away.

M: Okay. Listen, I want you to know that I enjoyed, although enjoyed may be the wrong word, our conversation the other night.

K: I enjoyed it too. I was going to say the same --

M: Actually not depressed but sobered by it and I look forward to the opportunity to talk to you --

K: You should stay in contact, Frank, it's always meant a lot to me.

M: Well, let's do that. You're busy now. When you stop being busy for a moment, maybe when you get back from your next trip.

K: Right. Or you take the initiative sometime.

M: All right. When are you going away or do you know?

K: I won't go to China until early August.

M: Early August.

K: Not before early August and it may be later than that.

M: Well, let me take the initiative and maybe we can do something next week.

K: Good.

M: Thanks, Henry.

K: Bye, Frank.

M: Bye, bye.

wgh

TelCon

Lawrence Stern/Mr. Kissinger

4:40 pm, July 11, 1973

K: Hello.

S: Hi, Larry Stern of the Post, how are you.

K: Okay, how are you.

S: Well, I'm a little baffled. It seems the Cubans have made a visa for me available and I was talking to Murray who thought it might be advisable just to touch base with you before going. Mainly on the question of whether there's any intimation that I ought--might be aware of on any kind of movement either there or here.

K: When are you going.

S: I'm going either Tuesday or Wednesday.

K: Why don't you come over and see Bill Jordan who handles Latin American things for me, and then if you have any questions I'll be glad to see you.

S: That's good, marvelous.

K: There isn't a hell of a lot to tell you. Let me begin by saying that.

S: Yes, I--

K: But still, I think you should have whatever we have.

S: Grand.

K: Good.

S: Well, I'll try to see you--

K: Call him tomorrow and by then I will have been in touch with him.

S: Good, fine. Thanks much.

K: Right.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E0 12/95
By CO NARA Date 6-8-94

TelCon

James Deskin/Mr. Kissinger

6:02 pm, July 11, 1973

K: Hello.

D: Henry, how are you.

K: Jim, I just learned that you asked yesterday at the briefing who paid for my houses in San Clemente and they are kicking it all over this place as a research project. So rather than--I can get you the exact figures if you are interested, but what happens is that I rent a house either from a private citizen, a Mr. Poland. There are two houses that I've been using and one of them about seven times and the other twice. They cost about the same thing and I don't have the exact figures, but it's always--I always pay five or six hundred dollars on top of what the per diem is that I get. Let me see, I pay $65 per day to the owner of the house and -- this is the house in which I was in the last time, and there's another house for which I paid $100 a day, which is a little larger. The one that I pay $100 a day is owned by the San Clemente Inn. Now I pay these out of my own fund that I get a per diem while I'm there. However, it doesn't cover it. I think it's $30, the per diem.

D: Yeah. Let me tell you the--I can give you almost the exact wording of my question that I asked Jerry Warren. I asked only one question and I can tell you precisely what the question was.

K: There was no implication that there was anything wrong with what you asked. I mean that you implied that there was anything wrong about it.

D: I simply asked a question and the question was this: Has the owner of the San Clemente Inn, whose name I don't even know except it's something like Paul Priceler or Paul Pressler or something like that--but I didn't use the name of the man. I said Has the owner of the San Clemente Inn bought or in any other way furnished Dr. Kissinger with a house in San Clemente. And Warren said he did not know. Today he said the question was asked again by Helen Thomas and Warren said no he hasn't, and that was the end of it as far I was concerned. Now the background is simply that I was told on the last trip that this was the case. I haven't had time to check it and I haven't had particular interest--

K: No, no. The answer is this, so far as I can determine it. The hundred dollar house, which is the larger one, where I stayed twice--the summer before this and the summer previous to that. That house on my second stay there had been bought by the owner of the San Clemente Inn. On

the first it belonged to a Mr. Sieverson.

D: Um hum.

K: The rent was the same in each case, and I paid it. And I then I paid again the difference between the--between whatever my per diem is and the rental. And I know it amounts, depending on the length of time, anywhere from $500 to $800.

D: I couldn't hear that last part.

K: It depends on the length of time I'm there. It has varied from $500 to $800.

D: Yeah.

K: The other house belongs to a private person, so the answer to your question is that the house in which I stayed twice, not this year but the year before this and then two years, on one of the trips--that is to say the second, had been purchased by the San Clemente Inn owner, But I paid for it the same way and I frankly didn't know that there had been a change in ownership.

D: Right. Well the point is unless he gave the house to you, or in some other way provided it for you, there's no issue here. That's not the case since you've been paying rent. It doesn't make any difference who owns the house.

K: Well, I didn't even know until the question was asked that there had been a change in ownership between the first and the second time, that I had rented it.

D: Right.

K: And the rent--to the very best of my knowledge. I'd have to check it to see if it was the same each year. I know it was the same each year.

D: Well I can tell you this that I haven't written a story about this, I just brought it up in an open briefing because I had no interest in pursuing this to some individual--

K: There was nothing wrong about your question, I just didn't know how I should give the answer--should I get Jerry to say all of this in the briefing tomorrow.

D: Sure. I've asked the question and he said he would take the question and check it, and then today Helen Thomas asked him if he had gotten an answer yet, and he said something to the effect that he had not, that he was still checking. Therefore, the best thing I say is just have him put out the facts, and the facts are that you pay rent and that's the end of it as far as anybody would be concerned.

K: Exactly, I'll get the answer put out tomorrow.

D: Sure.

K: And I'll

D: Because the question was asked, and it's an distorted version going around San Clemente, because this was told to me by a local newspaper man who ;mentioned in the course of the conversation: did you know that the owner of the San Clemente Inn has bought a house for Dr. Kissinger down here, and I said no, I didn't know that, and he said well, he's bought a house for him down here and he's providing him with a house.

K: Total nonsense. As I told you, Jim, I've used it once. That he's had it this year. He's in fact rented it to somebody else, and I had to rent a smaller house.

D: Right. Well, a distorted version has got around San Clemente.

K: Okay, well I will get Jerry Warren to answer it tomorrow.

D: Right. Good. I'm glad you are doing it, because I did ask the question and I think --

K: Well, what I wasn't clear is whether this was a general question or a personal one, and I would have handled it by calling you. Should I call Helen Thomas, do you think, or should I just let nature take its course.

D: Well, I know she's not writing anything about it--I shouldn't say I know it, I' would doubt very strongly because she merely asked for a progress report today, and got the response that it was still being checked. So I doubt that she's writing anything.

K: There was nothing to check at any point and the reason I called you was I'll get an answer put out tomorrow and with all the figures.

13

4

D: Right. Good.

K: Okay.

D: No, I just asked in an open briefing because I'd been told this out in San Clemente.

K: Look, I'm glad you asked it if that story is going around, it's doing me a favor to get it out.

D: I think it's better to get the answer out and get the story squelched.

K: It's much better for me, much better, I prefer it.

D: Um hum.

K: And, you know, it's a perfectly straight forward transaction, which I'm engaged in on each trip.

D: Well the context was--you probably saw a story that Ehrlichman borrowed-- a report in the paper that Ehrlichman borrowed $20 thousand from Kalmbach to buy a house. Now that story appeared a day or two ago. Well, Warren was asked a question about that at a briefing yesterday and he gave whatever answer it was, I've forgotten, and I said as long as we are asking about housing, let me ask you about a report in San Clemente that the owner of the San Clemente Inn bought a house for Dr. Kissinger. And Warren said I don't know anything about that and I said well will you check it. He said yes I'll check it. Today Helen Thomas asked have you checked it. No, I'm still checking he said. That's the total--I asked it only because the Ehrlichman house had come up in the briefing, I heard this report out in San Clemente so I thought well--

K: No, no, I'm delighted and since I don't borrow money and don't accept favors, I'm particular glad that you asked.

D: It's better to get it out. You're paying rent and that's the--

K: No, no, I'm paying rent and I'm paying what I have every reason to believe is regular rent.

D: Higher than regular.

K: Because I'm certainly paying quite a--I'll have to find out what I get per diem and you can figure out yourself what the difference is.

D: Right. Okay. I appreciate your call, but I also think it would be a very good idea to have Warren put out an account of it in the briefing.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority EO 12958
By CD NARA Date 6-8-04

TELCON

Helen Thomas/Mr. Kissinger

6:22 p.m., July 11, 1973

T: Hi, Doctor.

K: Helen, how are you?

T: Fine, how are you?

K: Helen, I understand that you followed up a Deakin question today at the press br·fing and that Warren was dancing around again.

T: (laughter)

K: And all I want you to know is I have -- I asked him today and I will insist tomorrow of putting out the exact figures.

T: Um-humm, um-humm.

K: And just for your information, I am paying rent every time I'm there.

T: Well, that's what I figured.

K: I get $30 a day per diem and there are two houses I am renting. This time I had a house which belonged to a private individual and that's the one I have most of the time for which I'm paying $65.00 a day. And twice I rented a larger house which once -- the last two summers I rented a larger house which one year was owned by a private party called Seiverson (sp?) and the second year was owned by either the San Clemente Inn or by the owner of the San Clemente Inn, I don't know which, and in each year I paid $100 a day rent for that.

T: That's for the past two years, huh?

K: That was in 71 and 72.

T: You paid $100 a day?

K: I paid $100 a day.

T: Wow!

K: In all the other years and on every other visit I got the smaller house and paid $65.00 a day.

T: And you rented one or two this time? xxx One house?

K: I rented one house, $65.00 a day. But this year it had nothing to do with the owner of the San Clemente Inn.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E0 12958
By NARA Date 6-8-84

Helen Thomas

2

T: Right.

K: I must have had the other house 7 or 8 times. The smaller one because it's cheaper and the larger one twice when the smaller one was not available and once simply because my children like it better.

T: Right.

K: Because it's larger, you know, there's a little more room.

T: Xox He should have told us that.

K: I agree with you. He will tell you that tomorrow.

T: Oh . . . [change in tapes] ...

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E012958
By CO NARA Date 6-8-04

T: When are you going to Peking?

K: We haven't got the date yet.

T: UP would like to send someone with you. Is that possible?

K: Is she pretty?

T: (Laugs) You haven't lost your sense of humor. Well, we can
make her very pretty. We have some gorgeous women.

K: You do. It's not a question of principle, it's reciprocity. Why don't you talk to Ron about that. I don't exercise any discretion in that area.

T: Right. There isn't any date set?

K: No.

T: What about this dumping of Lon Nol?

K: What about it.

T: Have you read the stories.

K: No.

T: The paper said that we told the Lon Nol government we are going to dump them.

K: Nonsense. That is certainly not true. We never tell governments we dump that we are gonna do it.

T: (Laugs) Well why don't you have a date set yet?

K: Because you may not believe it, I was telling you the truth all along that there was no date. This story has been built on speculation. Unfortunately. You know the speculation was essentially true so we couldn't deny it. But if you look at my previous visits to China, they've never been announced more than two weeks before they took place.

T: So it might not be until the end of the month, huh.

K: I will certainly not go until August. And the announcement may not be until the -- you know, around the 20th.

2

TelCon
Tish Alsop/Mr. Kissinger

7:00 pm, July 11, 1973

K: Hello.

T: Hello Henry, it's Tish.

K: Tish, how are you.

T: I'm fine. I just wanted to reinforce our invitation the other day.
I hope you and Nancy will come down this weekend.

K: Yes, Saturday if that's convenient.

T: Absolutely great.

K: Which do you prefer, Saturday or Sunday.

T: I don't mind either way. We are going down Friday, we'll be installed and if you would like to come for lunch and stay for supper by all means do.

K: Which day, Saturday. We'll probably come sometime after lunch, and stay for supper.

T:

T: That would be absolutely lovely, but if you prefer Sunday it's equally good to be absolutely honest with you. Which would suit you better?

K: I think Saturday slightly, but not enough to override your preference.

T: It doesn't matter a bit. We'd like to have either time.

K: Good, and I will make sure that Nancy will call me stupid in the hearing of Stewart. It seems that impressed him more than anything anyone has ever done.

T: (Laughter) That cheered him up. What did you do the other night with all those liberals.

K: Well, you have to ask Stewart. He was sitting there making slightly favorable noises to me.

T: I must say I did think it was an odd collection.

K: It was not the group I would have chosen for my first day back.

T: To be perfectly honest it wouldn't have been my choice either.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority EO 12958
By: NARA Date 6-8-04

DECLASSIFIED
Authority EC 12958
By 09 NARA Date 6-8-64

K: They were so stunned that they weren't as vicious as they usually are.

T: You know, they were very general I thought, the whole lot of them.

K: Well, maybe they feel more secure now.

T: Yes.

K: There's nothing like a trip of the President to bring out their humanity.

T: I'm not sure they have any, that's the only trouble.

K: Tish, can you send us directions?

T: I will, yes, I'll call somebody and give them, because I never remember to mail anything. Shall I call--Is Julie around.

K: No, Mrs. Andrews.

T: Mrs. Andrews, right, I'll call her in the morning and give her directions.

K: Good, and we'll come around 3:00.

T: And bring your bathing suit with you.

K: Good, terrific.

T: Okay, we'll see you then.

K: Bye.

TelCon

Amb. Godley/Mr. Kissinger

7:50 pm, July 11, 1973

K: Hello.

G: Henry!

K: Mack, I think what happened was an outrage.

G: Well, I'm pretty mad about it myself.

K: It's just a God damned disgrace. Now what is it you would like us to do.

G: Well, Henry, I was just thinking. One--

K: We will be prepared on behalf of the President to ask for a reconsideration.

G: I checked on that a little bit, and I would suggest before we do that
that we have consultation with the Leadership. I'm not sufficiently
up on my parliamentary law etc. What those rascals up there did
was they postponed the decision, they blocked it. And, of course,
the eventual possibility would be a fight on the floor. I'd love to
fight it. But I'm just wondering--let's say if we were to win, what
would that then mean for successor, you know, etc.

K: It isn't so much what it would mean for your successor, the question
is what it would mean to you when you're up there, and everything
you want to do up there.

G: What I'm a little bit worried about--the only thing that really makes me God damned mad on this, is what this does to the foreign service.

K: Did Bill tell you what I've discussed with him?

G: Yes.

K: You see, I would really like to know what the foreign service thinks.

G: Well, that's just what we were talking about tonight.

K: Because it seems to me what you do, you carried out orders of the
government. If we had told you to sell Souvannah down the river,
you would have done that too, under protest, but you would have done it.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EO 12398

By CD NARA Date 6-8-64

G: And if you told me not to bomb, I wouldn't have bombed.

K: So you were actually carrying out orders. Now we cannot have Ambassadors who are figuring out every time they get an order how that will look with Senate Foreign Relations Committee three years later.

G: Precisely. Another crime I did, of course, I carried it out with enthusiasm. (laughs)

K: Yeah. As far as you personally are concerned, you can be certain we will take very good care of you.

G: Oh sure, I'm not worried about that.

K: That is not a problem, and you can be sure the Committee will appoint you with great--will pass you for the next slot with the greatest enthusiasm.

G: Oh, sure. That's not the problem. The problem as I see it is the foreign service--what this does to the young fellows in the Service.

K: Now we will make a very tough statement tomorrow condemning it, and use some of these arguments.

G: What I've done in the meantime, I've been in touch with Ted Eliot. He was head of the Foreign Service Assn., he's getting hold of the rest of them.

K: And I hope your tigers over there are going to do something.

G: Yes. And Dick Snyder and Art Hummel are here with me now actually, we are sort of kicking around what do we do within the foreign service. Get someone, for example, like Chip Bohlen who suffered under McCarthy, to talk about neo-McCarthyism, or something like that.

K: Now, I'll be glad to call some columnists.

G: Well I think that--we can get in touch with them Henry, I think that whatever comes out of the White House, I would regret what it does more in sorrow than in anger.

K: What we will say tomorrow is that we want to express our regret at the decision of the Foreign Relations Committee, that Amb. Godley has scrupulously carried out the instructions of his government, and we think it is an deplorable precedence to have foreign service officers penalized for carrying out the policies of their government.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority Eo 12-958
By NARA Date 6-9-64

G: I think that's about all that should be said right now. Then we can see sort of where we go from here. And see what the leadership has to say about reconsideration or anything like that. There's a lot of hanky-panky you know.

K: Now do you want me to call Senator Mansfield? He's a good friend of mine.

G: I would suggest on this--Mansfield you know voted against I think.

K: No, he abstained.

G: He abstained, I see. And see what he thinks about it, he's a good friend of the Foreign Service of course.

K: And he's a good friend of mine. Beyond the fact that he may respect me, but he and I meet quite often.

G: Well, what about Scott?

K: He voted for you.

G: Oh, yes. I'm just thinking that this is something that, if I can make a suggestion to the Executive Branch, I think it ought to be thought out very carefully.

K: I agree.

G: And the parliamentary angles to it. I think they really screwed us on this by not taking--theoretically no vote was taken against me, the vote as I understand it technically was to postpone the decision on me. Which was pretty clevor of Fulbright.

K: But that doesn't make any difference, I mean the effect is the same.

G: No, I think the statement you outlined would be very good for the Foreign Service, and as I say I've already been in touch with the Foreign Service guys and see what the association wants to do, etc.

K: You know our enormous regard for you Mack, and we are--

G: It's been a lot of fun working for you.

K: Well, you are going to continue working for us, and you are going to do so in a highly responsible post. So, your own future is not going to be in the slightest affected by that.

4

G: I realize that Henry.

K: In fact, it will be enhanced by it.

G: Um humm. The Secretary called me this afternoon and that was just the point he was making.

K: So I wouldn't give any thought to your own position, but the next problem is what we can do in terms of the Foreign Service, and what we can do to put the Committee on notice that they can't get away with this.

G: I'm trying to get a hold of Chip, I think he's out in Hagerstown. He's the senior out of the Foreign Service.

K: If there's anything I can do in addition to what I've indicated.

G: Henry, I don't think so.

K: Because, anything that the Foreign Service wants me to do--you want me to call anybody; any newsmen you want me to call, or--I mean I may do some of this on my own anyhow.

G: I was thinking of getting in touch with Rollie Evans and some of those fellows whom I know personally.

K: No, you don't do that, let me do it. They are good friends of mine and I'll take care of that.

G: Good.

K: I don't think you should be speaking for yourself at all.

G: Yeah. Well I was thinking of Dick G?, or someone like that, but that would be nice.

K: I'll call Rollie.

G: Good. Well, I'll be dropping around one of these days, I'm a gentleman of leisure now.

K: But not for long.

G: I'm home now at 8:00 and you are still at the office.

K: Mack, you won't be a gentleman of leisure for long.

G: Thanks a million. Goodnight.

K: Bye.

TELCOM

Rowland Evans/Kissinger

7:59 p.m. - 7/11/73

K: Hello.

E: Henry.

K: Rollie, how are you?

E: You hit me at a bad moment.

K: What is the bad moment?

E: Well, I just signed my August 15th deadline. I just lost the finals in the golf tournament. For seven straight years I won it. You going to have breakfast with me?

K: Now you're getting presumptuous again.

E: I thought we were going to have breakfast tomorrow.

K: No, tomorrow I told you I can't.

E: How about Friday?

K: No, Friday I have

E: How about lunch?

K: No, I can't do lunch.

E: Oh, Henry, you're having lunch with Joanie Braden and Nancy.

K: I'm having lunch with Joanie Braden on Friday. Do you want to have a drink at the end of the day.

E: When, tomorrow?

K: Yeh.

E: Sure. Or do you want to have dinner with us tomorrow night?

K: dinner at some : No, I'm having

DECLASSIFIED
Authority EO 12958
By CO NARA Date 6-8-94

2

E: I might have known Henry. I might have known you wouldn't be free
one night before I ask you. I might have known that you're dated up
weeks in advance.

K: Oh, absolutely.

E: What time for a drink?

K: Oh, about 6:30.

E: In your office?

K: Yes.

E: I'll call you at 6:00.

K: Now can I in the meantime see whether I can get your compassion for
something?

E: What?

K: The Senate Foreign Relations Committee voted against Mac Godley today.

E: You are kidding!!!

K: Yeh. And I just think that's an outrage.

E: Yeh, but I can't do anything about it now.

K: Well, not tonight, but

E: Have you got anything on it? I mean do you have any inside stuff on it?

K: Only that they are against him because

E: Are they going to do that to Charlie Whitehouse?

K: Well, they may do it to Charlie too.

E: When was the vote?

K: The vote was 9 to 7 and they voted to postpone it indefinitely. They
didn't bring it to a vote up or down.

E: That's outrageous.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E0 12958
By NARA Date 6-8-04

K: And what the hell did Mac Godley except that

E: Yeh, I know. I wrote a column about it. I think it's outrageous. Absolutely outrageous.

K: And you know it's an outrage to the Foreign Service.

E: What was the vote on Graham Martin?

K: Well, it was narrow but I forget what it was.

E: Well, I'll get into that tomorrow morning and I'd like to talk to you about it tomorrow evening.

K: OK, but I really think - there's nothing in it for the White House here. But I think the integrity of the Foreign Service is going to be destroyed if every goddam Ambassador

E: The only way they'll save the Foreign Service is through Dr. Kissinger if you go over there.

K: Well, I'll tell you they'd have their tongues hanging out.

E: I think there's a good chance of it.

K: I have no idea. Have you been talking to ______ again?

E: No, I've been talking to a lot of people. You got a lot of friends, Dr. Kissinger. You've got a lot of friends in this town. And you got one on the phone you're talking to but keep that friendship warm every two weeks.

K: Listen Evans, you know something, a blackmailing WASP is just

E: I've got the prettiest girl in town here screaming to get a hold of this phone. Hold on.

(Mrs. Evans came on)

ME: Listen, Henry you don't ever have to have breakfast with Rollie again. Those flowers have done it. You were so adorable to send those flowers. You were the first person who ever did anything about my birthday on July 9th and it really put Rollie behind the 8 ball. He had to rush out and get some flowers of his own.