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CNN LATE EDITION WITH WOLF BLITZER

Special Edition: America's New War; Domestic,
International, Military, Economic Impact

Aired September 23, 2001 - 12:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WOLF BLITZER, HOST: It's noon in Washington and New York, 9:00 a.m. in Los Angeles, 8:30 p.m. in Kabul, Afghanistan, and 9:00 p.m. in Islamabad, Pakistan. Wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks for joining us for this special 2 1/2 hour LATE EDITION.

We'll get to our interview with U.S. National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice shortly. But first, the latest on the U.S. response to the September 11 terrorist attacks.

Secretary of State Colin Powell says Saudi Arabia has been, quote, "very responsive to U.S. requests thus far." This was in response to reports that the Saudis were not being fully cooperative.

Time magazine is reporting that a manual on crop dusting was found in a search of a suspected terrorist hideout. The report raises concerns that such a plane could be used to launch a chemical or biological attack.

And Americans will gather at Yankee Stadium this afternoon for a national prayer service to remember the victims of the September 11 attacks.

We begin now near Camp David, Maryland, where President Bush is pressing ahead with efforts to strengthen an international coalition in preparation for a military response to terrorists.

CNN White House correspondent Kelly Wallace has more on the president's plans.

(NEWSBREAK)

BLITZER: And Pakistan's government is standing by its pledge to support the United States, despite protests in that country. CNN chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour joins us live from Pakistan's capitol, Islamabad.

(NEWSBREAK)

BLITZER: And this note: Later in the program, I will be speaking with the Pakistani ambassador to the United States, Maleeha Lodhi. That will be coming up shortly.

But earlier this morning, I spoke with President Bush's national

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immediate plans in this new war on terrorism.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Dr. Rice, thank you once again for joining us. I know you've been very busy these last few weeks.

But how concerned should Americans be right now about additional terrorist attacks against them?

CONDOLEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER:
Well, there's no doubt that Americans need to be vigilant. They need to be patient about the security measures that are there at airports, at borders.

We are in a very active campaign now. The FBI has thousands of agents out hunting down the perpetrators of this crime. We're getting very good cooperation from intelligence services and from law enforcement networks abroad.

The best offense here -- the best defense is going to be a good offense, to go after these terrorists where they live.

But, yes, we need to be vigilant. But as the president has said, what we don't want terrorists to do is change who we are. And so we are going to be very cognizant and aware of civil liberties.

RICE: We're going to be very cognizant and aware that just because people look a particular way, they should not be the subject of harassment either by the government or by their neighbors. It's important that we remain who we are. But it is a time to be vigilant.

BLITZER: When you say the best defense is a strong offense, does that mean that the president is ready to revise the executive order that's been in place for a couple decades, barring the U.S. from engaging in assassination of foreign leaders?

RICE: The United States is looking at all of the laws that we have on the books, all of the executive orders that we have. But I believe that the president believes that with the package that General Ashcroft is putting forward in the Congress, we will have what we need to do.

BLITZER: Right now, are there any specific terrorist threats that you're aware of that you want to share with our viewers out there?

RICE: No, we're watching the intelligence very carefully. And during a time like this, there is a heightened sense of sensitivity. And we are getting, from all over the world, a lot of reports. And one of the keys is to make sure that you're looking to see what's realistic and what is not.

But, again, I think if the American people will go about their lives, be patient about the security measures that are in place, be cooperative with the FBI and law enforcement as they try and figure out who did this precisely, I think we will be OK. BLITZER: Law enforcement sources, intelligence sources have told me that their working assumption is that there are other Osama bin Laden operatives from the al Qaeda organization still at large in the United States right now. Is that a fair assumption?

RICE: I think it is best to assume that there are certainly other

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[L.C.]

operatives at large. We know now that this network has been borrowing in to the United States for several years, at least a couple of years. And so it would not be surprising if not everything has been routed out in the first 10 days.

But again, there is a very massive effort under way. That effort is not just within the United States, but abroad as well. We are taking appropriate security measures. And, indeed, for the long term, the president's decision to appoint one person to oversee homeland security, I think, is a very good measure in and of itself.

**BLITZER:** As you know, the president issued a series of demands on the Taliban and Osama bin Laden, in effect, Thursday night in his address to Congress. The Taliban has rejected basically by saying, show us the proof, give us evidence that Osama bin Laden was behind this; in effect, rejecting the president's demand. What's next?

**RICE:** Well, the Taliban should recognize that this has a long history. This is September 11, but it is prior to September 11 also. We know that Osama bin Laden and his network, his al Qaeda network were behind the bombing of American embassies. Osama bin Laden was indicted for that. We know that they are associated with the bombing of the Cole.

So, to say give us evidence, at this point, is not helpful. And the president is not going to be deterred in acting in America's self-defense because the Taliban -- which by the way is not a government that seems to care very much about evidence when it summarily executes its own people -- the president is not going to be deterred in doing what he needs to do to defend the United States.

And this, Wolf, is self-defense. If you have any doubt about the degree to which this is self-defense, just look at those pictures from September 11.

**BLITZER:** The Taliban's deputy ambassador in Islamabad in Pakistan said this about your demands. I want to play it. Listen to what he said earlier on Friday.

*(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)*

**SOHAIL SHAHEEN, TALIBAN DEPUTY AMBASSADOR TO PAKISTAN:** There are many probabilities who are the real culprits behind this. There is no evidence and proof given to us. We will not be ready to give Osama bin Laden without proof.

*(END VIDEO CLIP)*

**BLITZER:** And just to nail down the point, he says he needs proof, he needs evidence, before they hand over Osama bin Laden. Will you give the Taliban regime in Afghanistan any evidence, any proof behind what is in the public domain out there?

**RICE:** Well, again, let's be realistic. This is not a government given to western jurisprudence. So these calls for proof are somewhat misplaced.

But clearly, we do have evidence, historical and otherwise, about the relationship of the al Qaeda network to what happened on September 11. We will begin to lay out that evidence, and we will

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[L.C.]

But the fact of the matter is, we're not going to jeopardize this
investigation. We're not going to jeopardize the efforts of the FBI to
disrupt this network so that it can't act again in order to satisfy the
Taliban that Osama bin Laden and his network are responsible.

BLITZER: Now, today, Taliban officials are saying Osama bin Laden is now missing in Afghanistan. What do you say about that?

RICE: I would say that the Taliban is not trustworthy in this regard, and I don't see that we believe there's any evidence of that.

BLITZER: Do you believe they know exactly where he is and
they're protecting him?

RICE: Well, I think it's probably time that they demonstrate what they know about Osama bin Laden.

BLITZER: Is there any hope whatsoever that the Taliban will hand
over Osama bin Laden?

RICE: Well, let me be very clear. It's not just Osama bin Laden. He has lieutenants; it's very important that they be handed over as well. The president made very clear that this isn't one man, this is a network. It is also extremely important that their financial sources be cut off.

But the Taliban's role in this is to stop harboring this network, to stop harboring its training, to stop harboring Osama bin Laden and his lieutenants. And it's time for them to get about going in line with those demands.

BLITZER: Well, assuming the Taliban does not change, what is the United States do next in Afghanistan?

RICE: Well, in fact, this campaign has already begun. The president, as is well known, will sign an executive order about financial networks and really squeezing the life's blood out of his organization. It will ultimately not be able to function if it cannot have access to money.

BLITZER: You're talking about the al Qaeda organization.

RICE: The al Qaeda organization, yes. The president is also mobilizing international intelligence and law enforcement efforts around the world. There are people in this cell being rounded up in various parts of the world, not just in the United States. So the campaign has begun.

But as to the Taliban, the president made very clear the other night that he will act, but he will act at a time and place of his choosing. He will act when it is most effective and in the way that is most effective.

BLITZER: Will that include, assuming the Taliban defies the United States, with a move into Afghanistan to overthrow that regime?

RICE: The president is going to do what is most effective. And he has a number of options. There are a number of assets that we can use in getting to the Taliban and making it clear to the Taliban that they have a choice here. But the president is going to do this at a time of his choosing and not one minute before that.

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BLITZER: A spokesman for the opposition for the Northern Alliance, the group opposed to the Taliban in Afghanistan, spoke on Saturday on CNN. I want you to listen to what Hamroon Amin said.

[C]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HAMROON AMIN, NORTHERN ALLIANCE SPOKESMAN: We know the terrain, we know the turf, we speak the language. We can be of maximum use in Afghanistan, and I think that's something that the international community needs to really look at, capitalize on that. We can do a lot of the ground work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Is the United States prepared to work with the Northern Alliance, the opponents to the Taliban, in moving in Afghanistan?

RICE: There's no doubt that the Taliban, by its repressive measures against its own people, by it's really horrible campaign of terror against its own people, has produced enemies to it. And there are clearly a lot of Afghans who understand the Taliban has wrecked this country during its rule.

We are looking at our options. We have a number of assets that we can use. There are a number of people who may wish to join in this fight against the Taliban. If in fact the Taliban cannot be made to understand that the best course of action is to rid Afghanistan of what is really a foreign presence -- the Taliban is allowing another occupation of Afghanistan. We talked about the Russians, but the Taliban, by allowing al Qaeda to sit there, is allowing another foreign occupation of what is already a very troubled and terribly humiliated land.

BLITZER: Well, just to nail down the Northern Alliance, will the U.S. fund and provide military equipment, work with these groups to remove the Taliban from power? RICE: Well, we're working with a number of possible options, a number of possible assets around the world. And clearly we are focused on how best to use those assets to get the Taliban to do what it needs to do.

BLITZER: As you know, there's been some suggestions out there that the long term U.S. goal in Afghanistan should perhaps be to get a U.N. protectorate, to remove the regime, get another regime in place. Is that part of the long term U.S. strategy?

RICE: Well, I think all of these questions are down the road. We're taking this one step at a time. But the Taliban needs to understand that the United States and its friends are not going to countenance a regime sitting there, harboring terrorism, training them, allowing their finances and then having them make hit and run attacks around the world, including the kind of horrible attack that they made on New York City and on the Pentagon. That's simply not going to be tolerated.

BLITZER: Does the exiled king of Afghanistan, who's now in Europe, does he fit into your thinking long-term at all?

RICE: There are a number of Afghans who understand what the Taliban is doing to their country and who are mobilizing against it. But our focus right now is on the Taliban and on making certain that they understand the choice that they face.

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[L]

BLITZER: In an editorial this week in the Wall Street Journal, they said, "If that's your narrow focus, you're probably making a mistake."

Let me read to you what the editorial writers of the Wall Street Journal said this week. They said: "The terrorist threat won't vanish until Saddam" -- referring to Saddam Hussein -- "does. Indeed, if Mr. Bush decides to leave Saddam out of his war plans, so-called moderate Arab states are likely to be even warier of joining an anti-terror coalition, because they'll fear the U.S. isn't serious about a long-term campaign."

Is the U.S. setting its sights on Saddam Hussein and Iraq, as well as Afghanistan?

RICE: The president made clear in his speech on Thursday night that this is a broad campaign.

Now, there has to be an initial phase to this campaign. And the initial phase focuses on the al Qaeda network and the country that harbors them most nearly, which is the Taliban and Afghanistan.

But clearly, when you talk about rooting out terrorism broadly, you're going to look at where terrorism exists -- global terrorism exists, how it's supported, who supports it, and step-by-step you're going to have to go after all of those bases for terrorism.

But for now, the president is focused on making certain that he does what he said on Thursday night, and that's bringing the Taliban to account for what it has done.

BLITZER: So stage one is Afghanistan. Stage two might be Iraq?

RICE: Stage two -- first of all, let me just say, stage one has already begun. Because it's not just the Taliban. It is also beginning to squeeze off the life's blood of these organizations.

They need a lot of things to do, to be successful. They need money, they need territory on which to train, they need to be able to hide in the shadows from intelligence organizations and law enforcement. So this campaign has begun to squeeze off what really matters to them most.

There will be some military operation undoubtedly as a part of this. The president has told the armed forces to get ready. We will see what happens with other states that harbor terrorism. We will see what we do about other threats to American interests. But right now, the campaign has begun against the perpetrators of September 11 and those who support them.

BLITZER: When you say the campaign has begun, that spy plane that was shot down, the unmanned drone over Afghanistan, was that part of this campaign? Was that a U.S. plane?

RICE: Well, I can't comment on this specific situation, but obviously we are involved in very heavy intelligence-gathering operations, not alone, but with countries around the world. We are engaged in very aggressive law enforcement efforts with countries around the world. And again, I want to emphasize, we are engaged with countries in trying to cut financially the blood supply to terrorism. We're getting very good cooperation from a whole array of countries, all over the world, especially from a number of Islamic

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I mean, the UAE has severed its ties with the Taliban. The Taliban is going to be very isolated, and it's going to have to make a choice about what it wants to do about this foreign presence on Afghan soil.

**BLITZER:** In addition to Afghanistan and Iraq, for years the U.S. government has listed Iran and Syria as countries that support, sponsor terrorism. What are you telling the Iranian government and the Syrian government right now about their support for such groups as Hezbollah or Hamas?

**RICE:** The United States government is making very clear that there are no good terrorists and bad terrorists; that, in fact, support for terrorism is support for terrorism.

But the president's words were very carefully chosen the other night, that, "If you continue to harbor terrorism, if you continue to harbor terrorists, then you are making a choice in favor of terrorism."

So we're open to the possibilities. We're exploring with countries that might want to change their ways. But the president is very clear. This is not a single terrorist network. These terrorists, wherever you may find them, communicate, they help train each other, they help finance each other; the global threat to terrorism is what he's focused on.

**BLITZER:** So, just to nail this point down, if Iran and Syria continue to support and protect these terrorist organizations, will the United States react forcibly with them as well?

**RICE:** I think the president's been very clear that, while he wants to explore what is possible, that countries are going to have to make a choice.

**BLITZER:** You know that'll disrupt the coalition you're trying to put together?

**RICE:** Look, this is going to go in phases. And, again, as we've said about the coalition, there are many, many roles to be played here by members of what is really a broad coalition, or really multiple coalitions.

For some countries, this will mean information. For others, it will mean sharing law enforcement. For others, it will mean financial assistance. But there can be no good terrorists and bad terrorists.

But, again, we really need to focus now on the fact that the campaign against the near-term perpetrators of September 11 has already begun.

**BLITZER:** Have you told Saudi Arabia to stop allowing its citizens to provide money to some of these organizations that many regard as fronts for some of these terrorist organizations?

**RICE:** Well, one of the key goals here is going to be to cut off this financial supply. And any country that has citizens or non-governmental institutions contributing money to terrorism is going to have to do something about it. And I think that's broadly understood by everybody that we have talked to.

The Saudis, after all, would be a target of al Qaeda and its network, especially given the point of view of the al Qaeda

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network, fundamentalist enough. And so there's no doubt that the
Saudis are enlisted in this campaign.

BLITZER: Will Saudi Arabia allow the U.S. to establish a
command and control center near Riyadh or some place in Saudi
Arabia from which to direct this campaign?

RICE: We've gotten very good cooperation with the Saudis on the things that we have asked them. We're continuing to do discuss details with them. But the fact is that we're getting very good cooperation from the Saudis, and I expect that to continue.

BLITZER: Where do the Israelis fit into this entire strategy?

RICE: The Israelis are, of course, our friend and our ally. And the president has been in touch with Prime Minister Sharon. I know that Secretary Powell spoke with Prime Minister Sharon just yesterday.

Israel is a Democratic state that also faces terrorist threats. We do believe that out of the horrors of September 11 could come the possibilities for a new impetus for peace. And as a result, we have been encouraging the possibility of an Arafat-Peres meeting to explore what's possible.

We were encouraged by the words that Chairman Arafat spoke condemning terrorism. We continue to look for further action. We also have been encouraged that the Israelis have said that they want to stand down military operations and exercise restraint.

So this may, in fact, open a new possibility to make just a small step forward on the Middle East peace front.

BLITZER: Dr. Condoleezza Rice, thanks for joining us.

RICE: Thank you very much, Wolf.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And just ahead, the critical role of Pakistan. We'll talk with that country's ambassador to the United States when LATE EDITION continues. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. Joining us now to discuss Pakistan's role in the war against terrorism is that country's ambassador to the United States, Maleeha Lodhi.

Ambassador Lodhi, welcome back to LATE EDITION.

MALEEHA LODHI, PAKISTANI AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S.:
Sure.

BLITZER: This report that Osama bin Laden, according to the Taliban leadership, is now missing in Afghanistan. U.S. officials -- you heard Condoleezza Rice, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld saying that's simply not credible. What is your view of that?

LODHI: I think there's a great deal of speculation that has been going on. We have no official word, and my country will have to deal with the situation on the basis of fact, and on the basis of what we know to be confirmed.

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[L]

I can assure you that my country will deliver on its international commitments. We are bound by the United Nations Security Council resolutions which call for bringing to justice those who carried out the terrorist acts.

**BLITZER:** You're one of two countries right now, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, which still formally maintain relations with the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. The United Arab Emirates severed ties earlier this week.

**Does Pakistan plan on continuing that relationship? LODHI:** I think we need to put a couple of things in perspective. Pakistan reduced its diplomatic presence in Kabul once the U.N. Security Council resolutions, which were prior to the 11th of September, went into force. Our ambassador has been back in Pakistan for the last couple of months. And, similarly, we have reduced the presence, as we were called to do so by the U.N., of the Taliban representation in Islamabad.

However, at this point in time, we will proceed according to international law, and we believe right now, as we speak, there is a humanitarian disaster looming on our border. Aid agencies are reporting the massing of Afghan refugees on our border. We believe that we have to continue to keep a window open for Afghanistan, which, as you know, is a land-locked country.

**BLITZER:** As far as your government's position is concerned, the future of Osama bin Laden, his supporters, his followers and the Al Qaeda organization, who are in Afghanistan right now, what specifically has the government of Pakistan asked the Taliban government in Kabul to do?

**LODHI:** Well, we have impressed upon them the gravity and the seriousness of the situation, the fact that time is running out and that the international community has united against terrorism, and that we stand with the international community, and that they ought to respond without any delay to the demand of the international community, which has been expressed, as you know, in U.N. resolutions.

**BLITZER:** So, specifically, what does that mean, as far as Osama bin Laden and his supporters?

**LODHI:** Well, we've asked -- we've conveyed the demand on the international community, and the demand is very well-known.

**BLITZER:** Should they be handed over to another outside group, another nation?

**LODHI:** That they should hand over those who have been found guilty of terrorist acts, and they should be brought to justice. That...

**BLITZER:** Who should they be handed over to?

**LODHI:** I think the international community is very clear on this front, that the person, or the people against whom there is firm evidence that they have carried out terrorist acts should be brought to justice.

**BLITZER:** But will Pakistan accept -- if the Taliban says, "You can have Osama bin Laden and his followers," will Pakistan take them, and hand them over to the international community?

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[L]

LODHI: Wolf, we're not there yet. I think that's very hypothetical. I think the important issue right now is what is the Taliban leadership going to do to respond to our urgings and appeals to them, as well as appeals by other Muslim countries, to do what is required of them to do because the international community wants them to do this.

BLITZER: Now, as you know, the Taliban regime has responded to some of the actions and statements that the government of Pakistan has taken so far. I want to you listen to what the Taliban's deputy ambassador in Islamabad said earlier in this week. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHAHEEN: If Muslims extend a hand and cooperate with the infidels, assist them and carry out espionage activities for them, he is also considered as foreign aggressor and his murder becomes an obligation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: And just in case some of our viewers didn't fully understand what the deputy ambassador said, he was basically saying, "If Muslims" -- and, of course, Pakistan's an Islamic country -- "If Muslims extend a hand and cooperate with the infidels" -- meaning the United States -- "he" -- the Muslim -- "is also considered as a foreign aggressor, and his murder becomes an obligation." That sounds like a direct threat to Pakistan from the Taliban.

LODHI: I can tell you my country is calm. I can tell you my leadership, my government is resolute and firm, that it stands with the international community to do what we think is right.

Wolf, we took a position on the basis of principle. It was a moral imperative that drove our decision, and we will do that.

At the same time, we do feel for the Afghan people, which is why we have impressed upon the Taliban leadership that they should do the right thing by their own people and not put their people at risk.

Right now, as I was mentioning before, aid agencies are warning of an impending crisis which is brewing on our borders as hundreds and thousands of Afghan refugees make their way to my country's border. As you know, my country already houses over 2 million Afghan refugees. We estimate that if the situation deteriorates in our neighboring country, Pakistan could end up with another 2 million refugees.

The time at the moment demands that the international community focuses its attention on this humanitarian disaster as we also deal with our response to those who have carried out terrorist acts.

BLITZER: As you know, President Bush is now taking steps to lift the long sanctions that have been imposed against Pakistan. Is there anything else specifically that Pakistan is seeking from the U.S. government?

LODHI: Well, first, let me say we are very pleased with this development. It was long overdue. We felt these sanctions, which were there for -- some of them there for 11 years, were unjustified. My country was only sanctioned because we were trying to safeguard our national security. But we welcome this move. There

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a process which will lead to a sanctions-free relationship between Pakistan and the United States.

But one thing is very clear in our minds. When we took opposition and our president made his decision, a decision that he took to the people of Pakistan, what weighed the most on his mind was to do the right thing. There is no question of bargaining, of trying to solicit some kind of a quid pro quo.

The fact that the U.S. administration has taken this position is because we know that for several months the Bush administration had undertaken a review of their sanctions policy, and it is an outcome of that review. And I think it's a step in the right direction.

**BLITZER:** Sounds like a potentially new chapter in the U.S.-Pakistani relationship. Ambassador Maleeha Lodhi, thanks once again for joining us. We hope you'll come back.

**LODHI:** Thank you.

**BLITZER:** Thank you very much.

And when we return, the congressional response. We'll hear from two senators with leading roles in international policy and intelligence matters: Democrat Joe Biden of Delaware and Republican Richard Shelby of Alabama.

LATE EDITION will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

**GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:** These demands are not open to negotiation or discussion. The Taliban must act and act immediately.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

**BLITZER:** President Bush warning the Taliban in his address to Congress on Thursday.

Welcome back to LATE EDITION.

Joining us now are two key members of the U.S. Senate. Here in Washington, Senator Richard Shelby; he's the vice chairman of the Intelligence Committee. And in Wilmington, Delaware, Democratic Senator Joe Biden; he's the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

Senators, welcome back to LATE EDITION.

Senator Biden, I want to begin with you. A new poll just coming out at this hour, a CNN-"USA Today"-Gallup poll. Look at the numbers here. Do you favor military action in Afghanistan? American public, 82 percent favor military act in Afghanistan; only 13 percent oppose.

What are those numbers saying to you about the possibility of Congress passing a declaration of war?

**SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELEWARE:** Well, Congress already passed a declaration of war.

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draft, which gives the president the use of force. It has the constitutional equivalent of a declaration of war. Gives the president all the power he needs to use whatever force necessary to deal with this situation. So, in effect, constitutionally, he already has a declaration of war.

**BLITZER:** Any additional, Senator Shelby, legislation that Congress should enact in order to give the president more authority? Does he have all the authority he needs?

**SEN. RICHARD SHELBY (R), ALABAMA:** I believe the president's got sufficient power. If he sees he needs some, he can ask us. But I agree with Senator Biden, that we've already given him the tools he needs, and what we need now to do is support him.

**BLITZER:** All right, Senator Biden, what's the goal of this mission?

**BIDEN:** The goal of this mission is to suck the oxygen out of the air these guys breathe. And the way do you that is you do it at least three ways: One, you deny them safe haven. Number two, you go at their economic infrastructure, bank accounts, et cetera. And number three, you begin to dismantle piece by piece their organizational structures around the world. And I think the president has all three of those under way.

I am absolutely confident with the kind of international cooperation the secretary of state and he have been able to put together, that you're going to see a real pincer movement on the ability of international terrorist organizations to cross borders as freely as they have and retreat to safe havens. I think they're beginning to see the end of that day.

And so I think this is a big deal. I think the 11th will mark not the beginning of the end of our way of life, Wolf, but I truly believe the beginning of the end of the way of life and the possibility of large international terrorist networks to operate.

**BLITZER:** Senator Shelby, that sounds like a very ambitious goal. It's going to take a long time, obviously, if it's going to be achieved. Is it too ambitious, though?

**SHELBY:** No, it's not too ambitious. It is ambitious, but I believe it's necessary. I believe that, as the president said, we're basically going to pursue these people wherever they are. There's not going to be any safe sanctuary, or sanctuary anywhere in the world. It can't be.

**BLITZER:** But, you know, Senator Shelby, they are here in the United States.

**SHELBY:** Absolutely.

**BLITZER:** We heard Condoleezza Rice say they have to assume there are still terrorists at large in this country.

**SHELBY:** Absolutely. You know, there are nearly 300 million people in this country, and we've got to rout these people out. We've got to find them and we've got to get rid of them. And I believe the FBI is on the right track, and we've got to do this. You know, there are cells in this country, just like we know.

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPT/2009/09/03/condoleezza rice/ Senator Biden, that in this search for

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["[L]", "terrorists here in the United States, some of the basic civil rights, the\nliberties of the American people could be diminished?", "BIDEN: I was at the outset, Wolf, but I'm very proud of the president and my conservative as well as liberal colleagues in the Senate who have all -- all -- cautioned against the need to in any way effect our civil liberties.", "For example, it changed the way in which we can wire tap someone\nwith probable cause -- that is, going to a judge and getting an order\nis an expansion of wire tap and no limitation on our civil liberties.", "So, the kinds of things that the administration is asking for, the\nkinds of things, quite frankly, that I introduced when I was chairman\nof the Judiciary Committee after the bombing in Oklahoma City are\nthings we can and should do without any impact on our civil\nliberties.", "One point I'd like to make is that I don't think we should make these\nguys bigger than they are. I don't think we should increase the\napprehension of the American people beyond what it is. There are\nother people in this country. There's the Mafia still running around\nin this country. There's a lot of things that are in this country. But\nthe likelihood of someone becoming a victim of a terrorist attack\nover the next year is about as likely as them winning the lottery or\nas likely as them being struck by lightning.", "It is still horrendous for anyone who is the victim of an attack, and\nthere is likely to be other screwballs out there totally unrelated to\nthis who are going to -- you know, sort of the Squeaky Fromme\nphenomenon. When these things happen, you're going to have\npeople calling in bomb threats. And you may, in fact, have\nsomebody do something serious. But I think this has been an\nincredible wake-up call.", "BLITZER: Senator Shelby, you're the vice chairman of the\nIntelligence Committee. Time magazine has a report out today that\nin one of the suspected terrorist hideouts they found a manual on\ncrop dusting, which raises all sorts of fears of chemical or biological\nterrorism, if you will. How serious of a potential threat is that?", "SHELBY: Well, it's always a threat, and we're dealing with crop\ndusting, very important to our agriculture economy and to our well-\nbeing. We cannot overlook anything today. When you find people\nthat would be terrorists, or would have links to terrorist groups,\nthinking about crop dusting, you know, planes, thinking about how\nthey could use them, we've got to go after them. We've got to do\nwhat we have to do, and I believe we will.", "I want to mention one thing about civil liberties. Whatever we do,\nwe're going to protect the civil liberties under the Constitution of the\nUnited States. But I believe, Wolf, that we can give the attorney\ngeneral and the FBI the tools that they need to fight terrorism under\nthe confines of the Constitution of the United States.", "BLITZER: Senator Biden, if the Taliban regime in Afghanistan\nrefuses to accept the demands of President Bush, defies the United\nStates and doesn't hand over Osama bin Laden and his followers,\nshould the U.S. military go into Afghanistan and remove that\nregime, take over that country?", "BIDEN: Well, Wolf, I'm reluctant to comment on that because of\nthe actions of the Taliban, that they have as well as what Senator Shelby has", "http://www.cnn.com/TRAITS/0109/21/00000000-00000000-00000000-000000

["[L]", "in his role. So, let me kind of rephrase it.", "Is it appropriate? Would the president have the right to? Would it be\nwise to take action against the Taliban if he decided? The answer is\nyes, but let me make a distinction here.", "People point out that the Brits had been in years ago and the\nRussians were in and, in fact, they got themselves bogged down.\nOur goal would not be the same as the Russians were. We're not\ntalking about, and no one I know is talking about, going in and\noccupying Afghanistan and putting in a puppet government. We're\ngoing in and talking about -- if we go in, if that decision is made, if\nthat's what happens -- and going in and taking out infrastructure that\nexists that allows the support of international terrorist organizations.\nIf, in the process, the Taliban is in the way, we will deal with them.", "We won't do it alone. This is not going to be alone, whatever action\nwe take. There is the prospect that if we take action, you would have\nthe cooperation from the intelligence side as well as the possibility\nof other means from other nations, not only our NATO allies but\npotentially their Russian neighbors and so on.", "So I think this is a different circumstance. If we're talking about\ngoing in and occupying that country, that increases the problem\nmultifold.", "BLITZER: All right, Senators, stand by. We have to take a very\nquick commercial break.", "We'll continue our conversations with Senators Shelby and Biden\nwhen LATE EDITION returns.", "(COMMERCIAL BREAK)", "BLITZER: Welcome back to LATE EDITION. We're continuing\nour conversation with Democratic Senator Joe Biden of Delaware\nand Republican Senator Richard Shelby of Alabama.", "Now, Senator Shelby, in our new CNN-\"USA Today\"-Gallup Poll\njust out this hour, we asked the American people, do you support\nU.S. military action against Iraq at this time? Look at these\nnumbers: Seventy-three percent say they favor such military action;\n20 percent oppose. They're referring to Iraq.", "Should the U.S. -- as Condoleezza Rice, she said, phase one is\nAfghanistan presumably, phase two might be Iraq or other countries.\nShould Iraq be included in any kind of contemplated military\naction?", "SHELBY: Ultimately that will be a decision by the president,\nsecretary of defense, secretary of state to make. But I think we\nshould follow the roads wherever they lead. You know, if Iraq\nultimately is found to be involved in these terrorists attacks or\nothers, you know, we've made no mistake in the past saying, look,\nSaddam Hussein needs to go, you know, he's a menace to society.\nAnd we'll go from there, but ultimately, ultimately that's going to be\nup to what we find and the president.", "BLITZER: But, Senator Shelby, is there any indication that Iraq's\nSaddam Hussein may have been involved in the World Trade Center\nattacks and attack on the Pentagon?", 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