PR #629

-2-

**SECRETARY KISSINGER:** Extremely demanding. But, first of all, I don't demand anything of my associates that I don't do to myself. Secondly, I have high standards. I believe that it is the task of people in charge of an organization to discover qualities in their subordinates they didn't know they had, and therefore I have found very often that people do things that work for me that they have never done in other jobs. Do I lose my temper? Yes. Usually I lose my temper more on trivial things than on big things.

**MR. O'LEARY:** They say you throw wastebaskets and kick ashtrays. . .

**SECRETARY KISSINGER:** That is not true. I don't throw objects. I become very impatient when what I consider trivial obstacles get in the way of things that I need, believe me, to be done.

**MR. O'LEARY:** How about the less trivial, disagreeing people, for example?

**SECRETARY KISSINGER:** One of the myths is that I like conformists. But look at the people I have around me — Joe Sisco, Hal Sonnenfeldt, Tom Enders, Chuck Robinson, Win Lord.

**MR. O'LEARY:** They all talk back?

**SECRETARY KISSINGER:** They all talk back. And they are all extremely independent. Once a decision is made, I believe that then everybody has an obligation to carry it out.

**MR. O'LEARY:** When somebody that works for you doesn't come up to your standards, do you fire them yourself, or do you have it done by someone else? Not fire — but perhaps find a better place for them.

**SECRETARY KISSINGER:** Well, among my close associates, I have never had any occasion to fire anybody. In other positions, it is usually done by Eagleburger, who is in charge of management.

**MR. O'LEARY:** You never fire anybody —

**SECRETARY KISSINGER:** Well, I don't fire people who have worked closely with me. And I would never fire anybody who has made a mistake. But one sometimes makes a mistake in appointing somebody that one hasn't known too well, and in a large organization like this, that happens occasionally.

**MR. O'LEARY:** How do you react to criticism that might come to you through the press or from a public speech at the Hill, or from another diplomat? Are you thin skinned?

**SECRETARY KISSINGER:** It depends whom it is from. There are some groups of people from whom I expect criticism and that have taken fixed positions, either for political reasons or ideological reasons. There are others where I would suppose it bothers me, yes.

**MR. O'LEARY:** Do you have an outlet for that?

**SECRETARY KISSINGER:** Well, when I first came here I used to argue with critics. I think now I realize — at least I realize intellectually that it is part of the game here and unavoidable.

PR #629

-3-

**MR. O'LEARY:** Have you ever said or done anything, either in the NSC or as Secretary of State, that you deeply regret?

**SECRETARY KISSINGER:** Well, I have made mistakes. It is inevitable that you make mistakes. I think you really cannot afford to torment yourself with things that have happened in the past. You make these decisions under great pressure, almost athletically — because the time is pressing on you, and you have to react quickly. I don't think you can torment yourself with decisions you have made.

**MR. O'LEARY:** Do you have any problem admitting a mistake?

**SECRETARY KISSINGER:** When I feel I am wrong, I would make an apology. On decisions, what I invariably do, when we conclude an episode here, whether I believe it has succeeded or failed, I get the key people together and have a brainstorming session on what we did well, what we did badly, what we could have done better. And in fact I make them more often than not write critiques. That is what got me into trouble with one of the committees. Oh, no — that was an unasked-for — no, that was an asked-for critique.

**MR. O'LEARY:** Do you have any personal heroes, perhaps models? One hears thousands of times that you function somewhat like Metternich or Castlereagh.

**SECRETARY KISSINGER:** Metternich is not one of my heroes. I think Metternich was an extremely skilled diplomat, but not very creative.

**MR. O'LEARY:** You think you are, too, don't you?

**SECRETARY KISSINGER:** Yes. But I would like to think that — I hope to have constructed more than he had. I mean, he was a skillful manipulator of events that he didn't help shape. But I greatly respect his diplomatic methods.

**MR. O'LEARY:** Were his goals the same as yours? Are they essentially a balance of power?

**SECRETARY KISSINGER:** Well, any serious person thinking about security has to think of balance of power. I know no great statesman in history who has not had to address the question of balance of power. There can be no security without balance of power. The question is whether you can go beyond the balance of power to concepts that relate nations to each other on the basis of justice as well as of power. And this is the difference between the periods of construction and the periods that simply manipulate. But I really don't know any leading figure in history, international figure, who has not had to address the question of balance of power in some way.

**MR. O'LEARY:** Who do you see as the greatest persons in your lifetime?

**SECRETARY KISSINGER:** DeGaulle was a great figure. Franklin Roosevelt. Mao. I am not attaching moral judgments. Churchill, of course. To some extent Adenauer. My definition of great is somebody who made a qualitative difference in the life of his people and without whom it would be difficult to imagine that the history of his people would have been the same.

PR #629

-4-

**MR. O'LEARY:** The Legislative branch is a reality that has to be dealt with — the check and balance between the Legislative and Executive branches, that sometimes almost approaches impasse. Is this frustrating to you?

**SECRETARY KISSINGER:** Yes, it is frustrating to me. But it isn't the checks and balances that is frustrating. What is frustrating is that it is my conviction that you cannot conduct foreign policy except on the basis of some coherent set of ideas. You cannot segment foreign policy into a series of isolated decisions. On the other hand, the Legislative branch, even with the best intentions, can only address individual problems. And they therefore can make decisions that have consequences far beyond those which they intend. But then we have to pick up the pieces and they go on to something else. I am afraid that we are going to paralyze our foreign policy if the Congress takes over the conduct of foreign policy, which is increasingly the case. And we have to find out — I completely agree with the editorial in your paper today — there has to be found a distinction between supervision of foreign policy, which, however painful it may be, is important, and the conduct of foreign policy, which the Congress cannot do.

**MR. O'LEARY:** Do you have a religious, spiritual or philosophical ethic that you follow?

**SECRETARY KISSINGER:** Well, I believe that unless — the only way one can make the difficult decisions that have to be made in these positions is from a basis of some rather deeply held values. And strangely enough, I believe that tactical flexibility requires strong moral conviction, and that those who have no conviction can also not be very flexible, because everything then becomes a new problem for them.

**MR. O'LEARY:** When you are no longer Secretary of State, what would you most like to do?

**SECRETARY KISSINGER:** I have absolutely no plans. I have never discussed this with anybody outside — I have never discussed it. I think after I leave I will have to take a month or two to decompress. And I hope that in that period I will have an opportunity to discuss it.

**MR. O'LEARY:** Do you have a book in you, as we say?

**SECRETARY KISSINGER:** Well, everybody says that I am going to spend my time writing my memoirs. I have again not discussed this with any publisher. I suppose I ought to write my account of the period, because there are many events in which I was uniquely involved and for which the documentation could therefore be uneven. I cannot imagine myself spending my life as a writer. And therefore, I have to find something else to do, except to write. But what that something else is, I don't know.

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