BRINKLEY: MR. KISSINGER WOULD YOU START AT THE BEGINNING AND TELL US WHAT HAPPENED.

KISSINGER: WELL BEFORE WE GET INTO THE PAST LET ME EXPRESS MY CONGRATULATIONS TO GEORGE BUSH. I THINK HE'S AN OUTSTANDING CANDIDATE AND WOULD BE AN OUTSTANDING VICE PRESIDENTIAL CHOICE. I COULD OBSERVE HIM IN HIGH OFFICE IN TWO ADMINISTRATIONS WHERE HE PERFORMED HIS ASSIGNMENTS WITH EXTRAORDINARY DISTINCTION AND I THINK HE'S A GREAT PATRIOT AND A GREAT ASSET TO THIS COUNTRY. THE ISSUE OF PRESIDENT FORD JOINING THE TICKET WAS PUT IN A SPECIAL CATEGORY THEREFORE ONE SHOULD NOT LOOK AT GEORGE BUSH IN ANY COMPARATIVE WAY. IF A FORMER PRESIDENT DOES AGREE TO BECOME A VICE PRESIDENT WAS ALWAYS AN EVENT THAT WAS SO UNUSUAL THAT ONE IT REQUIRED SPECIAL CONSIDERATION. BUT I DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING WHAT HAPPENED.

WHAT I KNOW IS A SEQUENCE OF EVENTS SOMETHING LIKE THIS ON TUESDAY NIGHT A NUMBER OF PEOPLE HIGH IN THE REAGAN HIGHERACHY TOLD ME THAT THEY WERE EXTREMELY INTERESTED EXPLORING WHETHER MR. FORD WOULD AGREE TO JOIN THE TICKET.

THEY UNDOUBTEDLY MADE SEPARATE APPROACHES ALSO THEY ASKED ME WHETHER I WOULD BE PREPARED TO TALK TO PRESIDENT FORD. I SAID YES IF IT COMES UP IN A NORMAL COURSE OF CONVERSATION. AND THAT I WOULD CALL ON PRESIDENT FORD AFTER MY ADDRESSING THE REPUBLICAN CONVENTION. AND THAT THAT HAD BEEN SCHEDULED ANYWAY.

THEN VISITED PRESIDENT FORD.

BRINKLEY: THIS WAS AFTER YOUR SPEECH TUESDAY NIGHT?

KISSINGER: AFTER THE SPEECH TUESDAY NIGHT. AND WE SAT AND TALKED JOINED BY OUR WIVES AND TWO OR THREE OTHERS. FIRST ALONE, FIRST HE AND I ALONE AND THEN THE LARGER GROUP AND THE ONLY ISSUE REALLY WAS THIS: PRESIDENT FORD HAD BEEN VICE PRESIDENT, THEN HAD BEEN PRESIDENT AND HE KNOWS HOW COMPLEX IT IS TO BE VICE PRESIDENT AND THE ONLY MOTIVE PRESIDENT FORD COULD HAVE TO JOIN THE TICKET WAS TO HELP GOVERNOR REAGAN IN SOLVING AND OVERCOMING A NATIONAL EMERGENCY. ALL HIS PERSONAL MOTIVES WOULD TEND TO BE AGAINST IT AND ALL HIS EXPERIENCE WOULD TEND TO BE AGAINST IT AT THIS STAGE OF HIS CAREER. SO THEN THE QUESTION WAS THEN HE DECIDED HE WANTED TO SLEEP ON IT. AND ONLY THE NEXT MORNING.

BRINKLEY: WHAT TIME WAS THIS TUESDAY NIGHT ROUGHLY?

KISSINGER: WELL THIS WAS ABOUT 3AM IN THE MORNING

BRINKLEY: WEDNESDAY MORNING.

KISSINGER: WEDNESDAY MORNING. SO THEN WHAT EVERYBODY HAS TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT I'M CERTAIN

PAGE. 2

Lc]

KISSINGER: THAT GIVEN ANOTHER 24 HOURS THE OUTCOME WOULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT. BUT ALL OF THESE DISCUSSIONS WERE COMPRESSED IN A TIME FRAME BETWEEN 7 IN THE MORNING AND MIDNIGHT BY PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD THREE OR FOUR HOURS SLEEP. AND I TOLD SOMEBODY WHO WAS SITTING IN FORD'S OUTER OFFICE YOU WHEN YOU READ HISTORY BOOKS YOU THINK GREAT EVENTS OCCUR WITH PEOPLE CONSTANTLY MEETING AND THINKING IN FACT THEY OCCUR IN 10 MINUTES SNATCHES BETWEEN 4 HOURS OF WAITING. AND SO EVERYBODY HAS TO UNDERSTAND THIS. FORD WAS GOING AROUND TO MANY MEETINGS...

GOVERNOR REAGAN WAS GOING AROUND TO MANY MEETINGS SO TO ASSEMBLE THE PRINCIPLES ALWAYS TOOK HOURS. BUT THERE WASN'T REALLY ONE ISSUE. WAS IT POSSIBLE TO DESIGN A POSITION FOR A VICE PRESIDENT THAT RESPECTED THE CONSTITUTIONAL HISTORICAL FUDGATIVES OF THE PRESIDENT AND YET WOULD ENABLE HIM TO SAY TO HIMSELF THAT HE WAS MAKING A CONTRIBUTION TO OUR COUNTRY OTHER THAN JUST PARTICIPATING IN THE CAMPAIGN WHICH HE'S WILLING TO DO ANYHOW. THAT IS A COMPLEX PROBLEM BECAUSE IN 150 YEARS OR 200 YEARS OF CLASSIFIED HISTORY IT'S NEVER BEEN ABLE TO BE DEFINED PROPERLY. SO A NUMBER OF GOVERNOR REAGAN'S ASSOCIATES AND A NUMBER OF PRESIDENT FORD'S ASSOCIATES OF WHOM I WAS ONE OF. I WAS NOT THE SPOKESMAN, ALAN GREENSPAN WAS THE SPOKESMAN FOR THE FORD PEOPLE.

PRINKLEY: WHERE ARE WE NOW...WEDNESDAY MORNING?

KISSINGER: WE ARE NOW WEDNESDAY AFTERNOON. AND THIS ABSTRACT PROBLEM WAS PUT BEFORE THE REAGAN PEOPLE. I WANT TO SAY HERE AND NOW THE REAGAN GROUP BEHAVED WITH DIGNITY CONCERN, INTEREST FOR THE COUNTRY RESPECT FOR THE OFFICE THAT THEY ARE ASPIRING TO FILL AND COULD NOT HAVE CONDUCTED THEMSELVES IN A MORE PROPER THOUGHTFUL AND SERIOUS MANNER. SO THERE WAS NO TENSION WHAT SO EVER. AS IT HAPPENED HOWEVER THEY HAD TO GO BACK TO GOVERNOR REAGAN WE HAD TO GO BACK TO FORD AND TO MATCH THESE SCHEDULE ALWAYS MENT THAT IT TOOK A NUMBER OF HOURS.

PRINKLEY: SOMEBODY WAS ALWAYS AWAY DOING SOMETHING.

KISSINGER: IT VERY RARELY HAPPENED THAT EVERYBODY THAT WAS INVOLVED WAS IN THE BUILDING IN THE SAME TIME. SO THEN THIS WENT ON THROUGH THE AFTERNOON IN AN AMICABLE WAY ON A DIFFICULT SUBJECT. THERE'S NO ONE POINT IN SUPERABLE AND NO ONE POINT FULLY SETTLE EITHER. THEN GOVERNOR REAGAN AND PRESIDENT FORD MET AND HAD AN AMICABLE CONVERSATION I WAS NOT PRESENT AT THAT. KNOWING PRESIDENT FORD'S PROCLIVITIES WITH RESPECT TO ME. AS SOON AS HE WAS OVER..THIS MEETING WAS OVER UNKNOWN TO PRESIDENT FORD I WENT TO SEE THE TOP REAGAN PEOPLE AND SAID I WANTED TO MAKE

PAGE 3

[L]

KISSINGER: THERE SHOULD BE NO DISCUSSION OF PERSONALITIES AS PART OF THIS ARRANGEMENT

BRINKLEY: SUCH AS YOURSELF.

KISSINGER: SUCH AS MY SELF AND IN MY JUDGEMENT ANYBODY ELSE AND THAT WE SHOULD PUT THAT TO THE JOBS TO BE PERFORMED AND THAT WE SHOULD MEET AGAIN ON THE JOBS TO BE PERFORMED AND THAT I COULD USE MY FULL INFLUENCE TO BRING THAT ABOUT. I DID THAT ON MY CAN WITHOUT DISCUSSING IT WITH PRESIDENT FORD. I THEN TOLD PRESIDENT FORD THE SAME THING AND HE AGREED WITH THAT COMPLETELY. SO BY THEN WE WENT BACK TO THE JOBS TO BE PERFORMED. BY THEN WE WERE ALSO AT 8PM THERE HAD BEEN TELEVISION AT 8:30 at night.

BRINKLEY: THAT'S WEDNESDAY NIGHT.

KISSINGER: WEDNESDAY NIGHT. SO THERE WERE TELEVISION INTERVIEWS. THERE HAD BEEN A CONGRESSIONAL DELEGATION CALLING ON FORD THAT WAS NOT EXACTLY RETICENT IN EXPRESSING ITS VIEWS ALL OVER THE CONVENTION FLOOR AND SINCE WE'RE CALLING A DEADLINE WAS DEVELOPING BUT NOBODY HAD SAW IT. FORD WOULD HAVE LIKED TO HAVE THE NIGHT TO SLEEP ON IT. IT WASN'T POSSIBLE THEN ANYMORE TO HAVE THE DETAILED DISCUSSIONS THAT WERE NEEDED. AND AT THAT POINT IT SORT OF PEPED UP OUT. THERE'S GOOD WILL REALLY ON BOTH SIDES. AND WITH A SORT OF A SAD FEELING ON MY SIDE IT REALLY THAT IT WAS ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT WHERE I KNOW JOURNALISTS ASSUME THERE WAS ALWAYS GREAT CONFRONTATIONS AND BIG ISSUES AND PHILOSOPHICAL DISCUSSIONS. IT WAS QUITE LITERALLY SOMETHING THAT ANOTHER FOUR HOURS OF DISCUSSION COULD HAVE SETTLED AND NOT TO MAKE A TREATY. YOU DON'T MAKE A TREATY BETWEEN THE PRESIDENT AND THE VICE PRESIDENT YOU CAN'T INFORCE IT ANYWAY BUT THERE HAS TO BE SOME DISCUSSION OF HOW THINGS WILL WORK BECAUSE WITH THE BEST INTENTIONS IN THE WORLD IF THAT ISN'T UNDERSTOOD IN THE BEGINNING THE PRESSURES OF THE JOB WILL CREATE THEIR OWN MOMENTUM AND FORD DID NOT WANT TO BE JUST USED IN THE ELECTION HE WANTED TO CONTRIBUTE TO ________________. AND I KNOW HE'S GOING TO WORK HIS HEART OUT IN THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN AND I HAVE EXPRESSED MY STRONG VIEWS ABOUT THE NATIONAL INTEREST IN THIS MATTER. I SUPPORTED GOVERNOR REAGAN BEFORE THIS HAPPENED I CONTINUE TO SUPPORT HIM. I THINK IT'S A STRONG OUTSTANDING TICKET THAT HAS BEEN CREATED. AND THIS IS AS ACCURATE ACCOUNT OF EVENTS AS I CAN GIVE.

PAGE 7

KISSINGER: OF THE HOTEL AND THERE WAS A HOUR WHERE PRESIDENT FORD WENT TO TELEVISION INTERVIEWS HE HAD FED X SCHEDULED FOUR DAYS EARLIER THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS. AND YET OBVIOUSLY THAT SUBJECT HAD COME UP AND THAT ADDED TO THE EXCITEMENT OF THE MOMENT.

KRINKLEY: AS BEST AS YOU CAN ESTIMATE IT HOW MUCH ACTUAL TIME ALLOWED FOR ALL THESE TRIPS IN AND AROUND TOWN HOW MUCH ACTUAL TIME WERE THEY ABLE TO DEVOTE TO THIS?

KISSINGER: MAXIMUM OF TWO HOURS. AND MY OWN PARTICIPATION IN IT. I AM AN OLD FRIEND OF PRESIDENT FORD I'M DEVOTED TO HIM. I THINK HE SAVED OUR COUNTRY IN A DIFFICULT SITUATION. I SPENT MOST OF MY DAY SITTING IN HIS OUTER OFFICE SO THAT IF HE NEEDED SOMEBODY TO TALK TO FOR FIVE MINUTES BETWEEN APPOINTMENTS HE'D HAVE A FRIENDLY PERSON NEXT TO HIM. MY PARTICIPATION IN MEETINGS WITH REAGAN PEOPLE AN HOUR AND HOUR AND A HALF, TWO HOURS MAXIMUM.

KRINKLEY: STRENGTHENED OVER TWO DAY.

KISSINGER: STRENGTHENED OVER ONE DAY. MY PARTICIPATION WITH THE REAGAN PEOPLE WAS MY FIRST CONTACT WITH THE REAGAN PEOPLE ON THAT ISSUE WAS TUESDAY NIGHT. THE LAST WAS WEDNESDAY MORNING. ALLOF THIS HAPPENED IN A 24 HOUR PERIOD. AND I GOT INVOLVED NOT AT THE REQUEST OF PRESIDENT FORD BUT AT THE REQUEST OF GOVERNOR REAGAN. WHOSE PEOPLE I WANT TO REPEAT AGAIN BEHAVED WITH ABSOLUTELY NOT ONLY COREICHPRESS BUT WITH CONCERN TO DO THE RIGHT THING FOR THE COUNTRY.

KRINKLEY I WANT TO TASK YOUR JUDGEMENT ON A STORY WE HEARD LAST NIGHT IT WAS IN THE VIEW OF SOME OF THE REAGAN PEOPLE PRESIDENT FORD WAS ASKING TOO MUCH.

KISSINGER. I THINK THAT WAS A MISUNDERSTANDING OF THE SITUATION. PRESIDENT FORD WAS ASKING FOR A SPECIFICATION OF A ROLE HR WAS PRESIDENT HIMSELF. AND NOBODY WHO'S BEEN PRESIDENT CAN WANT TO DEREGATE FROM THE AUTHORITY OF THE PRESIDENT. UT AS HE SAID IN SEVERAL QUOTATIONS THAT I'VE READ HE WANTED TO FEEL THAT HE WAS PLAYING A SIGNIFICANT ROLE. NOW HOW YOU DO THAT WITH SOMEBODY WHO HAS NO DEPARTMENT NO FIELD OF RESPONSIBILITY ISN'T EASY. HOW YOU KEEP HIM FROM JUST BEING A FIFTH WHEEL.

KRINKLEY: DID HE WANT THIS ON PAPER.

KISSINGER: NO. WHEN PEOPLE TAKK TO EACH OTHER THEY HAVE NOTES FROM WHERE WHICH THEY MAY HAVE READ BUT THERE WAS NO PAPER. NOBODY WAS TRYING TO DRAFT AN AGREEMENT BECAUSE IF

PAGE 8

you do that between A PRESIDENT AND A VICE PRESIDENT WHO'S GOING TO ENFORCE IT. FINALLY
IT HAS TO COME TO CAN THESE TWO GENTLEMAN WORK TOGHETER. I ACTUALLY CAME TO
THE CONCLUSION THEY COULD HAVE WORKED WITH EACH OTHER VERY WELL AND I THINK
THEY WILL WORK WITH EACH OTHER DURING THE CAMPAIGN VERY WELL.

BRINKLEY: HOW YOU HAVE BEEN IN WASHINGTON SOME TIME DO YOU THINK IT IS REALLY POSSIBLE
FOR THE VICE PRESIDENT TO DO THAT A SERIOUS SIGNIFICANT ROLE IN THE GOVERNMENTAL
PROCESS INCLUDING APPOINTMENT AND DECISION MAKING AND SO ON?

KISSINGER: VERY HARD VERY DIFFICULT. ADVISORY YES. BUT AS SERIOUS PARTICIPATION
ON A CONTINUING BASIS ON DECISION IS VERY HARD TO DO.

BRINKLEY: PRESIDENT CAN GIVE AWAY HIS OFFICE BEFORE HE WINS IT.

KISSINGER: WELL WE CAN'T GIVE IT AWAY ANYHOW WE WINS IT EVEN IFHER AND THAT'S THE PROGRAM

BRINKLEY: SO ANOTHER WHAT WOULD YOU SAY IF OUR GOVERNOR WOULD HAVE DONE IT.

KISSINGER: I THINK OVERNIGHT WOULD HAVE DONE IT. IF WE HAD HAD TILL NOON TODAY
AND IF EVERYONE HAD HAD A GOOD NIGHTS SLEEP AND SAT DOWN AND SAID NOW WHAT
ARE THE THREE THINGS WE REALLY NEED TO DO IT WOULD HAVE BEEN DONE.

BRINKLEY IF IT HAD STARTED A DAY SOONER?

KISSINGER: PROBABLY IT WOULD HAVE WORKED IF BUT THERE WAS GOOD WILL ON EVERYONE'S SIDE AND
THERE'S GOOD WILL NOW.