DECLASSIFIED
Authority E0.12958
By: NARA Date 6/9/09

L: I held out on that when they wanted to do that after Dave Packard. I just wouldn't do it.

K: He is a disaster. Why do you think he is doing it?

L: Well, they want to be clean. They think that will help them with their budget. Well, there's no use having a budget if you, well, I'll talk to you about that sometime.

K: Well, but, are you going to defend the original decision or how are we going to do it?

L: Of course I am. I did it on the Today Show. I thought I had it quieted down. I'm going to do it again today in Chicago but --

K: I mean, we saved American life. There were North Vietnamese troops there. The government of the country we were bombing were asking us to do it. What the hell - one sometimes thinks we are in a madhouse.

L: Yes. See, they opened it up again yesterday, though, by putting out those orders. You saw the paragraph they raised hell about?

K: Yeah. But that's not a falsification of records.

L: No, that has nothing to do with a falsification.

K: That was a press story and how the hell are you going to keep it secret if you are going to put it out if you don't have a press story?

L: You put out - the tone of the story was that we wouldn't deny we were in Cambodia, we would just say that we were hitting and there would actually be some hits in South Vietnam.

K: Yeah. But the only thing is we shouldn't all start pissing all over each other and one guy says --

L: Well, my wife said the thing for me to do, there is only one thing for me to do and that is to get the hell out of the whole darn business.

K: No.

L: And I think she's right.

K: Well, I think it would be a disaster, Mel.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E 0.12958
By: A. NARA Date 6/9/69

L: But, I mean, you know, getting dumped on like this and having people in the Administration send over original messages and stuff like that, I don't understand it.

K: But I'm calling -- Are you going to be there for awhile? I'm going to call --

L: I'm leaving. I'm going to be at the -- I got to go down to this legislative leaders' meeting in five minutes. And then I got a press conference at the Drake Hotel at 12:00 and I am going on that Cupp(?) TV show, starting at 2:00, taping it for Saturday night.

K: I'm going to call Schlesinger right now and I'm going to raise unshirted hell.

L: I'll be at the Blackstone Hotel after 12:00.

K: Your time?

L: 12:00 my time. Yes, that's 1:00 your time.

K: O.K. I'll call you.

L: Alright.

K: Good! Bye.

FELCON (Secure Phone)

Schlesinger/Kissinger

9:50 a.m. - 8/10/73

K: Hello, Jim.

S: Yes sir.

K: Jim, I just had a call from Laird

I think he is right. What the hell is going on? Why do we have to put out execute orders?

S: I don't know.

K: What is possessing you people over there?

S: I don't know, I read about it this morning.

K: You gave me your word yesterday morning

S: Wait a minute, Henry, you asked about White House orders.

K: Right. Well, give me the rationale for putting out military orders.

S: I don't know the rationale for putting that paper out.

K: It does us no good.

S: I don't know the rationale but let me look into that. The question you asked me yesterday was about White House orders.

K: We were in good shape at these hearings. We had them quieted down. Mel thinks they were given a memcon of a conversation between Haig and a Colonel setting up some procedure.

S: I don't know about that and I doubt that. Now I think we are in good shape.

K: I don't see the point

S: Wait. Let's stick to the shape we're in.

K:

S: How?

K:

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E.0.12958
By: NARA Date 6/9/73

SANITIZED

SAMI

SANITIZED

2

S: No, sir, that paper is consistent with what Mel said on the. . . . .

K: I think it would be a courtesy to tell Mel.

S: We just had the fellows come in from public affairs yesterday and they said that this was consistent with what Mel had said on the Today Show.

K: Yes, but he is former Secretary of Defense, now a White House official. If conversations come out that he had with Haig, in this present climate

S: Dammit, we had Symington and Hughes on the ropes yesterday. It doesn't come out that way in the press, but look at the TV excerpts from last night, Bill Clements and Tom Moorer did a helluva good job yesterday.

K:

S:

K:

S:

K:

S:

K:

S:

S

K:

S:

K:

S: Do you know where I can get a hold of him?

K: SIGNAL knows.

S: OK, Henry, we will get a hold of him.

SANITIZED

By AB NARA Date 6/9/69

TELCONE

Fred Buzhardt/Kissinger

10:10 am - 8/10/73

K: Fred:

B: Yes sir?

K: Have you found out about old hot shot?

B: I checked the list and they tell me they didn't think there was any use but he would -- and I'll call him right now and see if he's got the information.

K: Who do you think is putting that stuff out at Justice?

B: I don't know. I think sometimes it's delusions of grandeur, Henry. Everybody wants to get on the list. I know Justice is leaking what they have to the news media and the FBI.

K: Still:

B: Yes, I'm convinced they are -- to the FBI.

K: Do you think that Richardson's trying to stop it?

B: I doubt if he is even paying any attention to it, Henry. I know Al called Kelly - put the arm on him. He intended to; I don't know if he actually did it.

K: O.K., if you could find out before that guy goes crazy.

B: O.K.

K: Thank you.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E 0.12958
By NARA Dje 6/9/69

I*

TELCORN

Secretary Clements/HAK

August 10, 1973/12:38 p.m.

C: Hi Henry.

K: Are you guys over there working for the same government or are
you working for yourselves.

C: You must be joking?

K: We are getting deluged now with, did we approve that execute order
on 20th November 1969. I mean what the hell.

C: 20th of 1969, oh the execute order.

K: Well, what ever it was... Did we put... Well, first of all, why
was it put out? What was the need for it?

C: We felt like it was absolutely the thing to do and this was thoroughly
discussed with Secretary Schlesinger in this building in every
respect.

K: Well, we are going to insist now that the things that affect the whole
Administration we get a chance to discuss it.

C: Well, Henry for your information, the President [x] and Al
Haig called and they liked it. They called yesterday afternoon about
7:00.

K: Yes, but they didn't know you had put out the order. They liked your
presentation, which was excellent on the merits of the case.

C: Well, I don't want....

K: Well, we are knee deep now in... How do I answer the question whether
we approved over here...

C: No, you didn't

K: That order of 20th of November.

C: No you did not and there is nothing on that piece of paper that indicates
that he did and it was an ordinary run of business that Mel Laird as
the Secretary approved.

K: I loved what I saw of you on the
merits of the case but I fail to understand the reasoning that went
into.

C:

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E.0.12958
By NARA Dje 5/9/09

SANITIZED

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E0.12958
By NARA Dae 6/9/69

C: The reasoning was Henry that Senator Symington and Senator Hughes were not going to turn lose of this until they had some understanding of how these things were handled internally and who authorized these kinds of procedures.

K: Well, why couldn't that be said orally.

C: Well, the effectiveness of it orally would not be near so good as the piece of paper.

K: The piece of paper was certainly effective. It made the front page again every place and it destroyed the superb testimony you gave on the merits of it.

C: I don't think it did at all. I differ with you. And on top of that

K: That's what I mean. It's very helpful. .. I mean it raises the whole issue now, who authorized what all over again which we had laid to rest once before.

C: Well, the point of the whole thing and the whole exercise was in the piece of paper. You're forgetting there were two pieces of paper that were released. One goes back to 67 and this piece of paper was a piece of paper that was signed out by a man named McNotten that I don't know.

K: Yes, I know. He was head of ISA.

C: At that point in time the ISA was running that show for McNammara in turn for Johnson. This was done with McNammara's authority which I said and it was signed out by McNotten and handed to the military. This is an execute and this is the cover story, this is the way it should be handled and this will suffice for the press.

K: Listen for this message. Seymour Hirsh called and said he has been told in Defense that the memo released yesterday by Mr. Clemens on bombing dated 20 November 69 was approved by you and the President.

C: Oh, that's not true.

K: It was a *Whale* document. Really nothing more than a recommendation that he get authority from the White House.

C: That is not true at all.

K: Well, but you know.

Now I suppose I should cover my ass and take it and say the President did it all.

- 3 -

C: OH, don't be reidiculous Henry. That was an ordinary piece of business
it's in the testimony.

K:

SAW IT WED

C: He isn't

K: That may be true. 2nd he says exactly what this piece of paper says.
Namely that this was a request from Wheeler to him to get the authority
from the White House. Now I personally don't believe---

C: That's not true.

K: that by November 69 it was required to get authority from the White
House because it was a routine business process.

C:

K: All I am saying to you Bill is by putting this stuff out we are now again
in one of these intermittent fights within the Administration. I know
for a fact that in November 69 there was no longer any reason to get
White House approval for individual raids.

C: Why certainly not. And in the testimony yesterday, Admiral Moorer
and I tried to make the point, and we did make the point and it was
accepted that this was completely routine and that Mel Laird signed
out on many of these kinds of things as did McNotten and this was
the concept and this was the way it was handled.

K: Well, for somebody who has been around here Bill, we are now in
another document fight. Now the New York Times could print a
document. They could never print oral testimony to that document.
Wheeler did us a lot of good by getting through the god damn thing
but I.....

C: He didn't though. He didn't get through it.

K:

C: I know it.

K: And who will be jumping on us and probably has done it already.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E.0.12958
By NARA Date 6/9/09

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E.O. 12958
By: NARA Date 6/9/07

C: I think...
suppose

K: I don't suppose somebody in this God damn government has to assume responsibility so the President will assume responsibility.

C:

K: Our problem is that we are now again in an awful discussion... Did the President authorize, order or did I order or authorize this. I frankly don't think I knew about a November 20th raid on an individual basis.

C: Certainly you didn't and if I might make a suggestion.

K: Not that I... But I don't want to run away from it.

C: No, no, no.

K: The original procedure we knew about.

C: No, no. Now look Henry let me tell you what we did and you'll see that it comes into focus because it was the only sensible thing to do. The routine of this has to be in the final authority sense that a basic decision was to be made to bomb in Cambodia. Now we said that yesterday.

K: And that you did very well.

C: And they say, alright, who made that decision. Obviously it's made at the NSC level. Nobody makes that kind of a decision except at that level. We didn't say the President. We didn't say you. We say NSA. It flows from the NSC into the DOD where the Secretary has the full responsibility on the civilian side and it flows from that to the military. Now it's just that simple.

K: What do you want to bet that by Sunday at the latest, if not by tomorrow the New York Times is going to have a major story claiming the President and I did all of this.

C: Well, I think that...

K: Not that I would give a damn. We ordered the strike and we did order the strict security. These details we didn't order but that wasn't our business.

C: And its not business and if I might make a suggestion. You should take

the fact that this is strictly routine and Secretary Clemens and
Admiral Moorer made this crystal that this was retain and this
was a typical sign out order. And that Dave Packard XXXIX in
his capacity as a Deputy to Secretary Laird. ...

K: Well, they don't give a damn whether its XXXIX routine or not. They give a damn of whether we had ordered that and that is... it is now going to be.

C: Henry, you didn't that's what I'm going to try to tell you.

K: Before the week is up it will be the President ordering a coverup and lying in Cambodia and I ordering it.

C: Well, I don't think you have to get in that position if you will just...

K: We are in that position. That's what Seymour Hirsh is writing now. If I call him it's going to lead to an endless... I've only got 2 choices. I can either call him and say we didn't do it November 20th and he is going to ask, when did you do it ______ is going to get into the act and we're going to be in one of these revolting XXXIX exercises which I've never seen in any Administration and which alone makes us unfit to govern because no one ever assumes responsibility. Everyone is covering his own ass. So we'll just let it ride now.

C: It has to Henry. I would be happy to discuss it at any length you want to but it must eventually in the initial authorization it has to flow from NSC and so...

K: And so it did.

C: And everybody knows that and once you've said that the decision was made and at that point then it becomes routine in DOD and you should maintain that position. That is the position. That is the straight forward honest answer and that's it and nobody has to wiggle from that. It's when you start trying to wiggle that you get in trouble.

K: We are not trying to wiggle at all. WE had the god damn thing in its right focus when these documents showed up which are now going to be another god damn cause...

C: I just can't accept that and I mean -- I know that you have that opinion but I just don't join you.

- 6 -

K:

C:

K: Well, it's still. Well.

C: Now, there is just no point in him trying to you know holier than thou
this whole situation.

K: No, but the question is whether the Administration should be constantly
getting each guy like a bunch of piranha fish going after each other.

C: Well, certainly. That's not the point Henry. There is no vindictiveness
or personalities involved whatsoever.

K: No, all that is involved is that we've now got another major ________.
But I will stay if they get... I'll either say nothing or I'll say we
yes, we authorized the procedures and ________. Then we've got
the President again where everyone always dumps things. I'll say
we authorized the procedures and on any particular date we didn't

C: Certainly you didn't and you didn't authorize the procedures. You
authorized the strikes and I wouldn't move from that position. You
authorized the strikes. You did authorized the military services
going in there through the chain of command.

K: But Bill, the indecency of this triangular thing... I mean there is
constant stuff coming out where the
everyone dumps on everyone else
and the buck finally has to come here. Then they all dump it in here.
It's just a sort of a revolting spectacle.

C: Well it is for me and obviously it is for me than anybody because I at least
have some objectivety about it. I wasn't even here.

K: Because after all, to my certain recollection, we insisted that Wheeler
gave the correct testimony. n The White House asked for secrecy.
The White House didn't ask for the particular procedures .....

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E.0.12958
By. AL NARA Date 5/9/09

C: Why hell no you didn't. Certainly you didn't.

K: My recollection is that during March and April we authorized the individuals strikes. After that we were informed after the strike were authorized. That is my certain recollection. We didn't authorize strikes in advance because it was a routine milk run up to a certain point.

C: David Packard assures me that is the case. He signed out on a bunch of things too and I've talked to him about it and he feels exactly as I do about it. He said hell, the White House didn't have anything to do with that. Every day Keith would bring up this document and if Mel wasn't here I'd sign out on it. If mel was here he'd sign out on it. It was just that simple. And its excatly what the hell we've been doing since I've been here. AThere is not one bit of difference.

K: OK. But I'll consider what to say Hirsh and I'll let you know what I said to him.

C: I wish you would Henry. And by God you've got my support 100% and you know that.

K: OK Bill thank you.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E.0.12958
By AB NARA Dae 6/9/69

TELCORN
General Haig/HAK

August 10, 1973/2:48 p.m.

K: Hello

H: Hello Henry.

K: Those maniacs in Defense you know put out an execute order of
November 20, 1969 which now of course. Did Laird call and want--
did he talk to you?

H: No

K: And threatened to resign.

H: Why.

K: Because it makes him the guy who did it. And because it will open
the whole God damn debate. I don't know why they had to put out
an execute. You know it had details in there about how to mislead
the press.

H: Oh, I see.

K: Why they put it out is beyond me. Now they've shifted the discussion
away from the double bookkeeping on which we were on good ground
to falsification for the press. And now inevitably it will get to
the White House. If we can put out an execute for November 20 why
can't we put it for the old series.

H: Why did they do this I wonder. I thought we...

K: Because they are a selfish bunch of sons of bitches. They thought
they could prove it was a routine matter and that it was comparable
to something they had put out in the Johnson Administration. But
of course having done one how can they stop the others?

H: Well, they just have to.

K: I would like to get an order sent out by the President that none of these
things can be done unilaterally by Departments.

H: Yes. Its inconceivable that they would have put that out. I thought
yesterday you called Schlesinger and he said no.

K: That's right.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E0.12958
By NARA Date 6/9/09

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E0.12958
By: NARA Date 6/9/07

H: What did Laird say?

K: Well his argument was he thought I was talking only about White House documents and they are talking about Defense execute orders.

H: Well let me call Mel and see what the hell happens here.

K: Another things I would appreciate if you could leave word on your behalf. I've already registered it with the Defense Department that the President is highly displeased.

H: I'll do that. I'll call Jim Schlesinger right now. I'll call him first.

K: Right. If you could do that... Because when I called they said you called them last night to congratulate them on their testimony. If they hadn't put out the document. Of course, you've seen it, it's on the front page of every paper.

H: I still don't give a God damn Henry. They had cover up for Over lord they had the same thing done. They had phoney briefings. They had phoney plans circulating. I don't think we should be.

K: All I'm saying.

H: But we shouldn't be

K: Al, there was no need for it. If it came out we can excuse it but why volunteer it. What purpose does it serve?

H: It doesn't serve any purpose. It just added more fuel when they should have said hell no.

K: I mean it forces us into a two-week additional explanation which we can easily live with for no reason at all. Seymour Hirsh has already called and said Pentagon people have told him it was ordered by the President you and me. You know you can see we are going to survive. What I am saying is there was absolutely no need for it. No one had raised that issue. And of course Laird is beside himself. He actually threatened to quit this morning.

H: Well, let me call him too.

K: And he is holding a press conference.

H: Alright.

K: You want me up there at 10:00 in the morning.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E.0.12958
By AB NARA Date 6/9/67

Telcon

James Mulliken (Time) / HAK

Friday, August 10, 1973: 4:30 p. m.

<u>Mulliken</u>: Hello.

<u>Kissinger</u>: Hello.

<u>Mulliken</u>: I wanted to check something with you. This is something worth checking. Burns, a Canadian teacher at the moment, saw a story in the Times, Post, and Toronto paper about the Party Congress in Peking. He checked with Peking. The Chinese government said they expected you there for the first few days of September.

<u>Kissinger</u>: If this is so they haven't told me. We haven't set a time yet.

<u>Mulliken</u>: Well, do you think this is worth printing?

<u>Kissinger</u>: It is sheer speculation. We have discussed several days but there was no agreement.

<u>Mulliken</u>: Is it a possibility?

<u>Kissinger</u>: I can't say that -- it would be going too far.

<u>Mulliken</u>: Could you say that the meeting will be in September?

<u>Kissinger</u>: I will say it is a possibility.

Don't go too far. You said it would be in August and it didn't turn out.

<u>Mulliken</u>: Did we print that?

<u>Kissinger</u>: The press picked up a Peking story.

<u>Mulliken</u>: One other thing. I saw Marshall Green yesterday and we discussed Prime Minister Whitlam's difficulties about getting into the White House.

<u>Kissinger</u>: That is not uncharacteristic.

<u>Mulliken</u>: Thank you.

<u>Kissinger</u>: Thank you.

TELCON
General Haig/HAK

August 10, 1973/4:51 p.m.

H: Hello.

K: Hey Al.

H: Henry.

K: You're psychic. You are calling me.

H: Yeah.

K: Because I was going to call you.

H: Oh, good. I talked to Jim and I told him -- he didn't know that they had released that thing.

K:

SANITIZED

H: Yeah. No, you said that you had called him but he said he didn't know what they'd done and that he had looked into it since he had talked to you and he doesn't think personnel or anybody else. It doesn't lead to the White House he said. I suppose because you had already said it does.

K: It does Al. And how --why did they pick that order. We cannot now resist putting out other orders.

H; Well, I told him he's not to put any more out. That's it. We'll have specific authority here.

K:

SANITIZED

Are through with what you wanted to say.

H: Yes. Because we've got another problem with him now. Bob Hill just came in.

H: um um.

K: And he said he had a WASG on what we could do to strengthen Cambodia. You know it's crappy stuff riverboats and so forth.

H: Yes.

K: So he has been ordered by Schlesinger to travel around the country in a Jetstar to Mansfield, Alpert and all the congressional leaders and brief them on the WASG decisions.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E.O. 12958
By: NARA Date 6/9/04

- 2 -

H: Well, he's got to be out of his ____.

K: Well, you know what that is going to do. It's explaining of Thai in Thailand of Cambodian pilots its all unfortunately ______ stuff.

H: Yeah.

K: Now what I would like to do is to put a directive out saying that there is going to be a weekly meeting of Congressional briefings on all inter-departmental matters. and that no briefings can take place. You know I'll put it positively in order to coordinate it.

H: Yeah. The old lig exercise.

K: Because if we don't do that Al, we are going -- these guys are going to kill us.

H: Why doesn't Timmons put it out. I mean Timmons ought to write that God damn it.

K: Alright. I'll get Timmons to.

H: It ought to be a rejuvenation of the old lig.

K: OK

H: That's what we used to have to do. XXXX It's the only way we control these monkeys.

K: But can you imagine sending the ISA.

H: No

K: Around the country as if we were going to war.

H: It's insane. It really is. I think they are all rattled over there. I found out that -

SANITIZED

K: That's a lie for Christ sake.

H: You know that is what I said. There is too much god damn ass covering and not enough pulling together here.

- 3 -

K:

SANITIZED

H: Yeah. Well, we'll be alright. You know this speech thing has got a ways to go Henry but it's at least structured properly now. We've got a lot of things. The things that is best is the so-called White Paper. It's a pretty good piece of work.

K: Brauman tells me he is very pleased with it.

H: Yeah. So we can make the speech more addressing the more fundamental issues you know. WXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXK

K: Well, that is what I've always thought. I don't think you should get into any details in the speech.

H: That's right. He's got to talk about the uses of power and lessons learned.

K: Right. I think he should speak 10 minutes at most 15.

H: Yeah. Well it takes quite abit to do it. I think it runs about 20 now but it's got a hell of away to go.

K: Do you still want me to come up tomorrow.

H: Oh yeah. I think they have a chopper that leaves the Pentagon at 9:30.

K: That's fine. Is Harlow coming?

H: Yeah, Bryce will be with you.

K: Good. I'm telling you you know, it's like a reform school. This afternoon I had to fight for an hour. That God-damn State Department had sent the instruction that 10,000 troops should be pulled out of Thailand by August 20.

H: Yeah.

K: Can you imagine if we follow the bombing end XK in Cambodia with a quick withdrawal from Thailand.

H: Good God.

K: So I beat them down and told the Thais we'll withdraw whatever they think they need for their domestic situation but we are determined to stay there.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E.0.12958
By: NARA Date 6/9/69

TELCONE HAK--Dobrynin

August 10, 1973 5:00 p.m.

D: Hello.

K; Anatol, how are you?

D: How are you?

K: Okay.

D: I recieved today a telegram which is a rather interesting coincidence, of
mine. They have not yet received I'm sure the telegram--becuase it is only
today in the morning--what you gave me yesterday.

K: Right.

D: But I received today, I received mine. But they said something which, I
tell you covering the same from your side. Would you like me just to
read two sentences?

K: On what, on SALT?

D: On the same practically, it is my impression, on the same matter. But from
your side.

K: Okay, can I have it?

D: I will just read it to you, all right? It is too phrases, really, but if you
like I could send it. But I will read you the same. They ask me to, on
a very confidential basis, to talk with you and it reads like this one. "Please
talk to Dr. Kissinger about this one." I will read you the substance of the
telegram.

K: When they call me Dr. it is pretty bad.

D: Well, sometimes they look at you as Dr. Brown. When it is a kind of tech-
nical matter. Otherwise not. [Chuckle] It reads as follows: "The national
technical means of verification of the Soviet Union have detected covering
or camouflage devices at the U.S. rocket base at Warren which have not been
used before, and now have been constructed over silos for ICBM launchers.
Since the use of such devices would be in contradiction with Article 5 of
the Interim Agreement, the Soviet side would like to have clarification of the
matter before presenting it for official consideration by the Standing Con-
sultative Commission." Would you like me to read once more?

K: No, could you send it over?

D: There is no problem.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EO 12958
By MW Matas 5-20-93

DECLASSIFIED
Authority F-012058
By: E.W. Mains, Jr.
Date: 04/30/94

DOBRYNIN-HAK

-2-

K: Okay.

D: So, please look at it, it is rather interesting. It looks to me like what you mentioned to me yesterday.

K: No, I don't believe it is true, but I am going to look at it.

D: Whether it is true, I am sure it is true, but I don't know...

K: I am sure we can give a good explanation for it. [D laughs] I am not familiar with the program that is being carried on there.

D: No, did I say that was detected covering or camouflage devices?

K: Yes.

D: At your ricket base at Warren.

K: Yes, I will look into it and...

D: "Which have not been used before." Please look at this one. On this one I am on this one I cannot give today, because I was rather waitnig to send it together with your proposal but I didn't receive it.

K: You'll get it within the hour. Because I am trying to find a formula by which you have to destroy the SS 9s.

D: I thought you had already given up this idea.

K: No.

D: And you try to destroy it.

K: No, no.

D: Instead of make a constructive proposal and say, "Look, you have to really to employ something, you just use words 'Destroy'".

K: You told me you wanted to reduce your budget, and I figure that is a good way to do it.

D: This is true, but together with you. Otherwise I think it will not be healthy development.

K: No, you can trust us. [Laughter from Dobrynin]

D: Always another story. Henry, if you really need the time until Monday, there

DECLASSIFIED
Authority: E012058
By: NNPA 500; Oct 30 1974

HAK Dobrynin

-3-

not really a rush.

K: Oh no, you want to go up to Maryland.

D: You are right. [Laughter]

K: You don't want to have to wait.

D: No, really, my feelings are today, I tell you, there is no problem of leaving.
I ask you because your man will arrive and I will give him an envelope.

K: Why don't you do that.

D: Yes, in an envelope with my own man.

K: No, I will send my man.

D: Okay, within an hour.

K: In an hour.

D: I will do this particular, what I mentioned to you.

K: Okay, good.

D: XXXXX Okay?

K: Right.

D: This, is there anything new on our horizon?

K: No.

D: I am simply asking you.

K: No, we haven't lost any cabinet members lately. [Laughter]

D: Are you sure? [Laughter] But if you say yes, that is all right with me.
[Chuckle]

K: Anatol, I just talked to the President about our lunch yesterday. He thought we were doing very positive work.

D: I think it is really, because, and I by the way received a telegram about some, you remember we discussed with you some Japanese things?

HAK--Dobrynin

-4-

K: Yes.

D: And I recieved an interesting reply on it. In general it is definitely very positive and there is concurrence on the use of what you mentioned. And I discussed with you about our having a long range basis about our electrical computers, about there should be no competition. Remember?

K: Oh yes. Oh very well.

D: So this I recieve and tell you just, it is rather lengthy.

K: Thursday, at one.

D: Then I have something rather lengthy, but the substance is really definitely what we discussed a little bit between you and me, confidential. You mentioned about there should be no competition for favor.

K: Exactly.

D: We are completely in agreement with this. So you see all the talks we have are really, I think they are.

K: No, I think...

D: I think they are a really positive...

K: What I talked to the President about today is that perhaps the most important thing we are doing now is this coordination of general conceptual approach.

D: Yes. This I agree with you, because It is very important.

K: Because that is more important even than the specifics.

D: Yes, I agree with you. Because I noticed how quickly they did from Moscow all the things you discussed sometimes in a rhetorical way.

K: Yes.

D: That was to a certain extent, I mean...

K: No fromally they never reacted to it.

D: Yes. On a general impression, but this is a very lengthy reply, which was really touching several points we covered with you on this last visit, but all of them in really positive way and it is and I am and will discuss them with you later on and later on with you.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority F-012658
By N.W. Date 005041

TELCONE

Bill Timmons/HAK

August 10, 1973/5:15 p.m.

K: Bill

T: Yes Henry

K: We have a situation where the Departments are running absolutely
wild in their briefings. Like yesterday releasing this execute order
on the Cambodian bombing.

T: Yeah.

K: And today we found out that Defense was trying to brief ... send a man
around the country to talk to the Congressional leaders about some
more or less technical decisions we had taken WASG.

T: Good Lord. I didn't know about that.

K: No. And we'll never get a handle on it so I've talked to Haig and the
President and what we want to do is reconstitute something like the
old, I don't know what it is called, the old lig or something.

T: Yes.

K: And we would like you to sign the directive.

T: OK

K: We'll draft it and get it for you because otherwise we can't stop that
briefing.

T: That's right.

K: Can you imagine sending a man out to ... Montana to brief... Mansfield
about what we are planning with Cambodia which is technical crap.

T: Unbelievable.

K: And Alpert.

T: Unbelievable. I'm surprised that Jack Marsh over there who is a seasoned
hand would condone it if indeed he knows about it.

K: I don't think he knows about it.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E0.12958
By AB NARA Date 6/9/04

TELCON
Foreign Minister Rabasa/HAK

August 10, 1973 / 5:27 p.m.

K: Hello

R: Hello Henry.

K: How are you?

R: Fine and you?

K: OK.

R: Henry, I always want to keep you posted in our different issues no.

K: Yes.

R: Mr. -- Ambassador Everly was here 2 or 3 days ago. He came to speak with us in Tokyo. And then also the Finance Minister, Minister of Industry, Torres(?) and myself explained to him our concern toward the reform straight act of Mr. Nixon as being seen now by Congress. But, I also came up with him with this very high-priority idea of __________ of the economical rights and duties of the countries. As you must know. If it was proposed in Santiago then the Western United Nations sent a group of 40 twice this year and then a document with an alternative to each chapter has been or will be sent to the United Nations by the end of this year. I want to have you posted. I am sending to Mr. Eberly what has been more or less the concensus of the developing countries towards this charter. So I want to keep you posted and of course I want to have your reactions and your remarks Henry. So I just wanted to tell you what had happened and that I am sending you I am going to send it to the Ambassador, The Ambassador will send show it to Bill Jordan and Jordan will hand it over to you. It is not all you see an accepted document. It's a just a draft that we honestly made of the actions or worries or thoughts of the developing countries and this charter will be contemplated in the next assembly of the United Nations.

K: Good. Well, I will take a look at it.

R: OK Henry. The Ambassador will give it to Bill Jordan and you will have your document on your table.

K: You can count on it and I will look at it very carefully.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E0.12958
By NARA Dae 5/9/69

I*

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E.O. 12958
By NARA Dje 6/9/69

TELCORN

Henry Hubbard/HAK

August 10, 1973/6:38 p.m.

H: Hello. How are you?

OK.

H: I wish you would put those other 4 names out so this issue would rest. The word is around town that Dick Allen was on the list.

K: Total nonsense.

H: By the list I mean the list of 17.

K: I know. That's when I had occasion to check.

H: It occurs to me that this Safire thing has got to be nonsense. What did he know of foreign policy in 69.

K: It stands to reason my office couldn't have done it if it was done.

H: Obviously it was done.

K: I barely knew Safire. He wasn't handling any classified documents. I had as much reason to go after him as 2000 other guys.

H: At that time in 69 the welfare fight was going on and there was a stink within the people's union fighting that. Especially Arthur Burns, about union leaks to the press and Safire was tapped it was probably known on that score.

K: If...

H: It was an unauthorized tap not done by the FBI but by Walker or somebody like that.

K: I don't know anything.

H: It makes no sense to me to tap him.

K: This office could have no motive. When the first bunch came out they said I did it to check on loyalty. That was nonsense. None of this is for attribution.

H: No.

K: If I had any question about Halperin I could have gotten rid of him by just withdrawing protection. But I have chosen to have nothing more to say on

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E 0.12958
By AB NARA Date 6/9/09

H: I understand.

K: On Safire there must be ____ people in town still sane enough to remember --- he was a 2nd level speech writer. He had no contact with office and saw no more classified information than you. Had nothing to do with foreign policy, not in on deliberations.

H: I know people were very mad at him at the time.

K: But not in this office. I just about barely knew him.

H: It was not a national security matter.

K: If it was it wasn't defined by this office.

H: You going to Cal. next week.

K: early the week after.

H: Do you have a chance to have lunch next week.

K: Call Dick Campbell we might be able to do it Thursday. Has the Wed. speech been formally announced.

H: Not that I know of.

K: I wasn't sure this was the day.

H: I heard the President is going to Cali. next Thursday.

K: That is not true. It won't be until Sunday or Monday.

H: OK.

K: Bye

TELCORN

Ron Zeigler/HAK

August 10, 1973/7:09 p.m.

K: Hello

Z: Hi.

K: Ron, have you announced that the speech will be Wednesday?

Z: No we haven't.

K: I see, because somebody called me and -- Tom Bradon called me and
said he had -- there was an announcement ...

Z: No, Jerry said it would be mid-week sometime. But he didn't say what
mid-week was. It could be anywhere from Tuesday to Thursday.

K: Right. That hasn't changed.

Z: No.

K: OK. Fine.

Z: How are you doing.

K: I am doing fine.

Z: Are you coming up tomorrow.

K: Yes.

Z: OK

K: Have you seen the speech?

Z: Well I've seen a basic outline but that's all that we have at the time being.

K: What do you think of this Defense Department civilians releasing an execute...

Z: Oh, they're crazy. It was XEX totally unneeded.

K: We were doing brilliantly.

Z: People don't care about that but it's still foolish.

TELCONE

Amb. Volpe (Italy)/Kissinger

5:05 p.m. - 8/11/73

K: Hello.

V: Henry.

K: Yes.

V: How are you tonight?

K: OK.

V: I am sorry I wasn't able to get with the gentleman that you asked me if I had the opportunity to see because he had just left for vacation when I got your cable six days ago. But he returned today for a meeting of the Council and I asked for an appointment and spent a little over a half an hour with him. He was very appreciative of the fact that I called on him, as a matter of fact without my having to say a great deal he indicated that he had become quite concerned after Copenhagen because. . .

K: I don't think we better do too much of this on the telephone.

V: No, well I am not going to mention any names.

K: No, but there are too many people who'll understand.

V: Yeh, well perhaps you'd rather have me send you a

K: Can you send me a backchannel?

V: A backchannel tonight or tomorrow morning. Let's see what time is it there now?

K: It's afternoon.

V: It's 5 o'clock. All right, I'll get something off that you'll have the very first thing in the morning. Nothing earth shattering but definitely something that I think will indicate the desire to be helpful.

K: Your people have been extremely understanding and helpful and we are delighted that you there to hold it.

V: These people are very, very anxious to please. They remember very well the President's niceties to them and you can be sure they will do a lot to be helpful.

K: OK. Good. V: I'll get something off to you in the morning. K: Thank you.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E.0.12958
By NARA Date 6/9/69

TELCONE
Len Garment/HAK

August 11, 1973/5:45 p.m.

K: Hello

G: Hi Henry.

K: Do you think we've got clear instructions now?

G: (laughter) We had a good talk the liviest expressions of Haig and the
President's views.

K: The point you have to make is the President and Colson would meet frequently
for compassionate talks. If you can make that plausible then everything else
follows. When that's what your problem is.

G: Yes. My co-counsel here Charlie. Henry said that all we have to do
is to prove that Colson and the President got together periodically for
compassionate talks. (laughter) After that everything will be smooth
sailing.

K: I always used to tell Colson that I would recommend him to the Harbor
Divinity School to teach the co-eds of new dimensions in essays.

G: You could fire bomb it on ________.

K: That's one of the dimensions no one ever though of.

G: Well.

K: I think I'm making a mistake mentioning him so often because he's
aggressive and crazy.

G: He's not crazy. Aggressive but not crazy.

K: At any rate if you mention him often he may go on the attack.

G: Right. Al invited us to try anything we can think of. We'll try that third
party business because the one ordered to do so and if we have the resources
of energy to try a neutral version of the narrative we'll try that and if
neither of them work we'll.

K: But could n't you either of them.

G: What!!!

K: Couldn't you do either of them... The extent of the other is so great that if you don't put ______ in.

G: We do that we could put that in German--a foreign language.

K: Whatever road you choose I think you really should break it down by category.

G: Oh into categories, I see. I thought you were suggesting that we ...

K: No no. I think categorical crimes and then say is it believable that any one group of men could have got anything else done and could have done this.

G: OK I think we have it.

K: Len if you want to. I will get the copy of the speech I will get tonight for your new version of the narrative.

G: You're getting a copy of the speech tonight. Are you going to be here at

K: I'll be here tomorrow morning.

G: I'll stop by to see you then.

K: Good. Bye.

By: A4 NARA Dje 6/9/01

TELCON
Ambassador Denitz/HAK

August 11, 1973/5:55 p.m.

D: Good afternoon Dr. Kissinger

K: Mr. Ambassador, I wanted you to know that my colleagues in Foggy Bottom have put out a statement today.

D: Yes I saw it.

K: And I wanted you to know that they asked White House clearance and we told them they couldn't do it.

D: I see.

K: But that if anyone asked we -- they could say that we always opposed the activities.

D: Yeah.

K: Thereupon by a series of coincidence three wires -- two wire services three networks and 11 KEX newspapers called them for comments.

Asked
D: / On their own volition.

K: All voluntarily. But you know they would do it on Saturday afternoon.

D: Of course. When everybody is playing golf.

K: Yeah.

D: I understand Mr. Kissinger.

K: I just wanted your government to understand that this is not.

D: I appreciate it very much that you called. I just got a call about an hour ago from the Chancellor who told me that ______ was looking for him in writing the statement and he answered that on what I told him before I left to answer because I knew that you would call and I said that we have not initiated the war of ______ against us and we have to do everything now in our power to ______. And I asked my press officer to put in every wire that he can our response to The State Department's statement. Because although I must say that the statement was very carefully worded and very careful to say our Counselor that we have authorized to put it except to answer questions nevertheless I knew that they would make it so that it would appear as a statement.

K: ] Well, we ... and we put it. Well, as long as you understand the situation.

D: I appreciate it very much Dr. Kissinger.
being

K: I must say the Israeli Ambassador is a rather pleasant job. You get all over the Bahamas, Hollywood.

D: (laughter) Dr. Kissinger ______ in Washington these days.

K: That is true. Are you going to be back next week.
and addressing

D: No I'm coming tomorrow morning. I'm attending the national convention of the Jewish War Veterans.

K: OK I may talk to you next week sometime.

D: Anytime Dr. Kissinger. I appreciate very much your calling.

K: Good. Thank you. Bye.

By: A.B. NARA Dje: 6/9/01

TELCONE

Mrs. Mosbacher/HAK

August 11, 1973/6:00 p.m.

K: Hello.

M: Hello dear. How are you?

K: Fine. Thanks.

M: I just wanted to call and tell you something very exciting. You're such a drawing card we don't have a seat in the house left.

K: Good. Am I getting 10% of what you are taking.

M: Oh, sure. Isn't that thrilling.

K: Grand.

M: So try to think of saying something intelligently. (laughter)

K: But I don't have to do more than 10 minutes do I?

M: No. But that's an awful lot to think about isn't it.

K: Yes but I'm not going to make a major speech.

M: Oh no, no no. I just thought it might be good for your spirits to know that there are over 600 -- it looks like we'll probably going to have to use the hall.

K: Oh really.

M: Probably because.

K: Is Nelson going to be there.

M: He is giving the major address.

M:

K: Oh really. /How about that.

K: Isn't that terrific.

M: Really its.

K: I can't loose. I'll probably have to write it.

M: Oh Henry. (laughter) No but we Irish are so tickled about ______. The tickets went just like hot cakes. When people find out its sold out we're going to get calls like crazy and we're just going to have to say, well we can put you in the back alley. Or circuit television.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E.0.12958
By: NARA Dute 6/9/09