NPR's All Things Considered -- Henry Kissinger

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Lawyers Without Borders?

Kissinger, Accused of War Crimes, Decries 'Universal Jurisdiction'

Listen to Michele Kelemen's report for All Things Considered.

View a timeline of Kissinger's career

Henry Kissinger.
Photo: Associated Press

**Aug. 8, 2001** -- Human rights groups call it the "Pinochet Precedent." First, former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet was arrested in Europe. Then came the indictment of former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic.

And now, lawyers for Israel's Prime Minister Ariel Sharon are trying to block Belgian courts from charging him with war crimes, for allegedly allowing the massacre of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon two decades ago. Sharon recently called off a trip to Belgium to avoid further legal trouble.

Here in the United States, former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger is also reportedly wary about where he travels, though he denies it. He's been asked to provide testimony in several countries that are delving into Cold War-era crimes.

Belgium has taken this movement a big step forward, exercising what's known as "universal jurisdiction." For instance, the Sharon case now working its way through the Belgian courts has nothing to do with Belgium or Belgians.

Survivors of the Lebanon massacre have asked Belgian authorities to use a new law on universal jurisdiction to indict Sharon for war crimes.

Protester outside The
Commonwealth Club of California
in June, where Kissinger was

In a recent NPR interview, Kissinger lambasts the idea of universal jurisdiction and says legal principles should not be used as weapons to settle old political scores.

"I think when every national judge can assume jurisdiction... the legal system will be a way of conducting political battles the various contestants will pursue each other in courts around the world," he said.

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http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/features/2001/aug/kissinger/010808.kissinger.html

8/22/2001

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speaking.

Photo: Associated Press

This is a very personal issue for Kissinger and a touchy matter for the United States. Three countries -- Chile, Argentina, and France -- want him to testify about disappearances and killings in Chile, when the Nixon administration was supporting the Pinochet government.

Some critics, like author Christopher Hitchens, also argue that the former secretary of state has a lot to answer for regarding the U.S. bombings of Laos and Cambodia during the Vietnam War.

NPR's Michele Kelemen interviews Kissinger for *All Things Considered*.

## Timeline of Henry Kissinger's Career

**May 27, 1923:** Born in Fuerth, Germany

**1938:** Moved to the U.S. with family to escape Nazis

**1943:** Joined the U.S. Army Counter-Intelligence Corps and became captain in Military Intelligence Reserve. He also became a naturalized U.S. citizen.

**1954:** Received Ph.D. in International Relations from Harvard University and joined the school's faculty.

**1957:** Published *Nuclear Weapons and Foreign Policy*

**1958:** Received the Woodrow Wilson Prize for the best book in the fields of government, politics and international affairs.

**1961:** Named consultant to National Security Council

**1965-1968:** Served as a consultant to the U.S. Department of State

**1969:** Served as Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs under President Richard Nixon and became the head of the National Security Council. In his role, Kissinger helped engineer the U.S. bombing of Cambodia and opened detenté with Soviet Union.

**1972:** Helped negotiate the Strategic Arms Limitations Talks I agreements with the Soviet Union and developed rapprochement with China's Premier Chou En-Lai.

**1973:** Sworn in at the White House as the 56th Secretary of State on September 22. Initiated Vietnam cease-fire pact which lead to the U.S. withdrawal. He was awarded Nobel Peace Prize for negotiating the Vietnamese truce.

**1977:** Kissinger leaves office after President Carter's election and became professor of diplomacy at Georgetown University's School of Foreign Service.

**1978:** Started Kissinger Associates, a consulting firm, to continue

8/22/2001

All Things Considered

August 8, 2001

Page 1

LINDA WERTHEIMER, host:

From NPR News, it's ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. I'm Linda Wertheimer.

MELISSA BLOCK, host:

And I'm Melissa Block.

Western mediators in Macedonia say they've brokered an agreement between ethnic Albanian leaders and Macedonian politicians. The deal came just hours after 10 Macedonian soldiers were killed in an ambush by ethnic Albanian militants. It was the worst single-day casualty total since fighting broke out in the southern Balkan country in February. NPR's Guy Raz joins us now from the town of Ohrid, where peace talks have been held for the past 10 days.

Guy, what are the specifics that we know about in this peace deal?

GUY RAZ reporting:

Well, we don't know many so far. The European envoy, Francois Leotard, gave a brief statement to reporters just a short while ago. He basically said that the peace process continues and that an agreement will be signed in the capital, Skopje, on Monday. But, as I said, he refused to give any details about what was agreed upon. I also asked his US counterpart, James Pardew, about the agreement. Pardew said that he was sworn to secrecy and that no details will be released until Monday.

BLOCK: It seems a bit surprising that this peace deal seems to be coming on the heels of the ambush that we mentioned; these soldiers--Macedonian soldiers killed by Albanian militants. What happened there?

RAZ: Yeah, I mean, that's right. As you mentioned, it was the bloodiest day in the conflict since it began in February. What happened this morning was ethnic Albanian guerrillas ambushed a military convoy, which was traveling from Skopje, the capital, to the northwest city of Tetovo. And Tetovo is one of the largest cities in Macedonia. It's the site of some of the fiercest clashes that have been taking place over the past few months. There's pretty wide speculation that the attack was a reprisal. Yesterday Macedonian police killed five ethnic Albanian militants during a raid just outside Skopje, so it's likely that the attack on this military convoy was a reprisal attack.

BLOCK: But despite those twin attacks, the talks seem to have gone forward and borne some fruit.

RAZ: Yeah, it's been sort of strange. I mean, earlier in the day the largest Macedonian political party, which includes the president, Boris Trajkovski, and the prime minister, Ljubco Georgievski, temporarily pulled out of the talks. Reporters were sort of waiting for word of what seemed to be an imminent collapse of the peace talks. But very shortly after we were told that an agreement was reached after all. It's likely that the center right Macedonian political party, simply pulled out to give their hard-line supporters the impression that they opposed the talks. But in the end, they remained in the talks.

BLOCK: What are the major proposals that they're discussing there in Ohrid? What are--what's on the table?

RAZ: Well, most importantly is language. For the ethnic Albanians here it's been a struggle to gain recognition for the Albanian language. Macedonians, on the other hand, would argue that there should only be one official language. The compromise deal that was leaked to reporters earlier this week will give the Albanian language official recognition in areas where ethnic Albanians make up about 20 percent of the local population.

And the other major compromise that will happen is that there will be a change in the constitution. Right now the constitution reads that Macedonia is a country of the Macedonian people. The compromise agreement will make the constitution read that Macedonia is a country of Macedonian citizens.

All Things Considered

August 8, 2001

Page 2

[L.C.]

**BLOCK:** Is there any sense there that if this agreement does get signed on Monday, as you said it looks like it will, that the fighting will stop; that there's something in here that will persuade the guerrillas to put down their arms?

**RAZ:** Well, the ethnic Albanian militants are not part of the negotiations, formally. I mean, they are represented informally by the moderate ethnic Albanian leaders who are negotiating on behalf of Albanians in this country. But just last week a guerrilla leader said that they will disarm if an acceptable peace agreement can be reached between Macedonian politicians and the moderate Albanian leaders. If that happens, of course, NATO's pledged to send in about 3,000 soldiers to the area to help disarm the rebels and restore stability to the country.

**BLOCK:** Thanks very much.

**RAZ:** Thanks, Melissa.

**BLOCK:** NPR's Guy Raz speaking with us from Ohrid in Macedonia.

LINDA WERTHEIMER, host:

In neighboring Yugoslavia, people are still coming to terms with the departure of former President Slobodan Milosevic, who was extradited to The Hague on war crimes charges in June. He is not the only political leader to be called to answer for his actions in a foreign court. Israel's prime minister, Ariel Sharon, canceled a trip to Belgium recently. His lawyers are trying to block Belgian courts from charging him with war crimes for allegedly allowing the massacre of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon two decades ago. And three countries want to ask former secretary of State Henry Kissinger about certain US actions during the Cold War. NPR's Michele Kelemen reports on what looks like a new movement: Lawyers Without Borders.

MICHELE KELEMEN reporting:

Human rights groups call it the Pinochet precedent. First, the former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet was arrested in Europe, then came the indictment of former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic. Reed Brody of Human Rights Watch is delighted.

Mr. REED BRODY (Human Rights Watch): Until recently, it was said that if you kill one person, you go to jail; if you kill 20 people, you are put in an insane asylum; and if you kill 20,000 people, you're invited to a peace conference. And I think we're beginning, with the arrest of General Pinochet of Chile, the indictment and transfer of Slobodan Milosevic to The Hague, to see an end to that kind of impunity for the worst abuses.

**KELEMEN:** Belgium has taken this movement a big step forward, exercising what's known as universal jurisdiction, and that's making some governments nervous. For instance, the case now working its way through the Belgian courts has nothing to do with Belgium or Belgians. Survivors of a two-decade-old massacre in Palestinian refugee camps have asked Belgian authorities to use a new law in universal jurisdiction to indict Israel's Ariel Sharon for war crimes. Israel calls it a politically motivated case, and Israel's Foreign Ministry has asked its embassies to study the laws of other countries to map out where similar cases could pop up and to avoid any embarrassing situations.

Former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger lambasted the idea of universal jurisdiction in his new book. He says legal principles should not be used as weapons to settle old political scores.

Former Secretary HENRY KISSINGER (State Department): I think when every national judge can assume jurisdiction, the legal system will become a way of conducting political battles. The various contestants will pursue each other in courts around the world.

**KELEMEN:** And the former secretary of State says not all courts can be trusted.

All Things Considered

August 8, 2001

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Mr. KISSINGER: We look at courts as objective and legally based, and in the United States, that is almost always the case. But anyone who has studied other countries has read and seen charges of corruption, political influence, and above all, a totally different legal system. The defendant in most courts even in Europe has much less protection than he does in the United States.

KELEMEN: Though he did not acknowledge it in his book, this is a very personal issue for Kissinger and a touchy matter for the United States. Three countries, Chile, Argentina and France, want Kissinger to testify about the disappearances and killings in Chile when the Nixon administration, including Kissinger, was supporting the Pinochet government. Author Christopher Hitchens, Kissinger's archnemesis, also argues that the former secretary of State and Nobel Prize winner has a lot to answer for regarding the US carpet bombings of Laos and Cambodia. Kissinger gets angry when asked about such allegations, saying it's up to the State Department to provide foreign countries with documentation about the past.

Mr. KISSINGER: The State Department has taken the position that the questions should be referred to the State Department. The State Department will then answer it on the basis of the documentary record. And in the cases that I'm familiar with, I have no knowledge other than the documentary record.

KELEMEN: Are there countries that you won't travel to now?

Mr. KISSINGER: No.

KELEMEN: You'll travel--but do you consult, for instance, with lawyers before...

Mr. KISSINGER: I do not--you know, this is a highly inappropriate question. I was secretary of State. I conducted major negotiations. I'm not a criminal.

KELEMEN: A senior State Department official says the United States has received an information request from France and is dealing with the matter through government channels for now. Kissinger clearly has support in the Bush administration. Pierre Prosper, the new US ambassador at large for war crimes issues, echoes Kissinger's arguments when he says universal jurisdiction could lead to politically motivated cases.

Mr. PIERRE PROSPER (US Ambassador, War Crimes): We have some serious reservations and concern about the use of universal jurisdiction, and it's quite possible that the issue is, in fact, being confused. There are crimes that are universally recognized, but it does mean that any state can exercise jurisdiction over them.

KELEMEN: And universal jurisdiction, critics say, can get in the way of diplomacy. Israel's newly appointed ambassador to Denmark understands this. He's a former chief of Israel's Domestic Security Agency who defended the use of physical pressure during interrogations of terror suspects. Media reports suggested he might be arrested upon arrival in Copenhagen for violating the UN Convention on Torture. The Danish Foreign Ministry made clear, though, that the ambassador does and will have diplomatic immunity.

Ruth Wedgwood, a law professor at Yale University, says it is getting tricky for some officials to travel. She has her doubts about universal jurisdiction, saying it's impossible for courts to digest the past all at once.

Professor RUTH WEDGWOOD (Yale University): Much of this started, I think, with the best of intentions, but I do think there's sort of a gargantuan appetite on the part of the human rights community that doesn't always understand the necessary role of prosecutorial discretion and of the principled intermixture of justice and high politics.

KELEMEN: Reed Brody of Human Rights Watch acknowledges that states are going to have to reconcile the movement for accountability with principles of diplomatic immunity, but Brody is not worried that the line has been crossed yet.

All Things Considered

August 8, 2001

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Mr. BRODY: It's more worrisome, in fact, how people get away with mass murder and, in fact, how most people still do, whether you're Idi Amin sitting out in Saudi Arabia or the former dictator of Ethiopia, Hileman Shistumariam(ph), who's living freely in Zimbabwe. It's more worrisome still how much people get away with, these crimes. And we haven't yet had a case where the process has been abused, in which somebody has been falsely accused or in which a trial has been politicized.

KELEMEN: But the allegations against Kissinger and cases involving Israel might just make the United States even more uneasy about joining an international criminal court. The United States has not ratified the treaty setting up such a court. The Bush administration has suggested it would prefer to see specific tribunals set up, as has been done for Rwanda and Yugoslavia, rather than put Americans at risk of prosecution in a standing international court. Michele Kelemen, NPR News, Washington.

(Soundbite of music)

MELISSA BLOCK (Host): Struggling to see the stars--how light pollution is obscuring the night skies, coming up on ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.

MELISSA BLOCK, host:

From NPR News, this is ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. I'm Melissa Block.

LINDA WERTHEIMER, host:

And I'm Linda Wertheimer.

The Environmental Protection Agency is reportedly planning to back away from an air pollution control initiative put forward during the Clinton years. The controversial initiative was designed to force the nation's dirtiest power plants to spend billions on new and improved pollution control equipment. But representatives of the coal industry say there's no reason to spend this money, and the Bush administration seems to agree. Environmentalists say it's a win for the country's biggest polluters. NPR's John Nielsen has more.

JOHN NIELSEN reporting:

Aging coal-fired power plants are some of the largest sources of air pollution in the United States. Frank O'Donnell, an environmentalist with the Clean Air Trust, says these plants produce a huge range of pollutants.

Mr. FRANK O'DONNELL (Clear Air Trust): The principal ones of concern are sulfur dioxide, which converts into fine particulate soot, which we know now is deadly; it shortens people's lives. They produce nitrogen oxides, which converts into smog, and we are having a code red smog alert here in Washington, DC. And they are also a big source of the toxic metal mercury.

NIELSEN: Newer electric power plants aren't allowed to pump out anywhere near this much pollution. But when the country's main air pollution law was written through the 1970s, hundreds of older power plants were grandfathered in. O'Donnell says the owners were told that they wouldn't have to buy the most expensive pollution control equipment, if they promised never to expand their facilities. The assumption was that the older and less efficient facilities would quickly go out of business, but they didn't go out of business. Most of them are still around and some of them are much bigger than the used to be. O'Donnell says that happened because these owners expanded their plants illegally and called it routine maintenance.

Mr. O'DONNELL: Essentially, they've taken some plants and rebuilt them entirely from the inside out and tried to call that routine maintenance. In the process, what they've done is they've extended the life of some of these big, coal-fired, electric plants that have been around since the 1950s.

[L]

All Things Considered

August 8, 2001

Page 5

NIELSEN: During the Clinton administration, the EPA and the Department of Justice tried to force 51 routinely
maintained power plants to spend more money on pollution controls and also to pay big fines for allegedly
violating the federal Clean Air Act; a few companies agreed to do it. But since George W. Bush has moved into
the White House, this controversial enforcement effort has been thrown into limbo, which is exactly where it
should be, according to Scott Siegel(ph), a lawyer who represents the owners of some of the older plants.

Mr. SCOTT SIEGEL (Attorney): What they want is the ability to generate electricity, make improvements in efficiency and environmental protection without having maintenance activities trigger the full weight of the Clean Air Act. Remember, maintenance activities go on every day and in many different ways. And if each of those different emphasis trigger the Clean Air Act, it would mean perpetual enforcement on the part of EPA.

NIELSEN: Siegel says it was the Clinton administration and not the electric power industry that misused this obscure section of the federal Clean Air Act. He says the result has actually been an increase in pollution at some plants, where plant managers who want no part of an aggressive EPA investigation have begun avoiding even the smallest maintenance operations. Siegel also says his clients have always viewed the Clinton enforcement plan as being motivated more by politics than law.

Mr. SIEGEL: There is an underlying agenda to marginalize or eliminate the use of coal, and this has been a longtime viewpoint held by some members of the environmentalist community. And I believe that an approach to public policy like that is completely irresponsible.

NIELSEN: According to The Washington Post, EPA administration Christie Whitman had decided to scale back this controversial enforcement strategy, in part because it's making it hard for the coal industry to provide more electric power. A spokesman for Whitman will only say that the administrator wants to make the program more efficient and more effective. John Nielsen, NPR News, Washington.

MELISSA BLOCK, host:

The authors of a new study of light pollution say that mankind is proceeding to envelop itself in a luminous fog. More and more artificial light from the Earth is wiping out illumination from the stars. Elizabeth Alvarez, with the International Dark Sky Association in Tucson, Arizona, says light pollution is a well-established problem, but still, she says, this study holds some surprises.

Ms. ELIZABETH ALVAREZ (International Dark Sky Association): Even people in our office who understand that this is a worldwide situation and they know how their view of the night skies has been changing over time, even they looked at these maps and said, 'Wow. Now it really hits me. Now I really feel motivated and I really understand that this is a worldwide problem and we need to do something now.'

BLOCK: When you do talk to people to try to explain the problem and then the solution, what's your pitch?
What do you say?

Ms. ALVAREZ: I mean, it's really sad, some of the numbers that you saw there that--What was it?--half of the US population--no, more than two-thirds of the US population no longer can see the Milky Way. That is such a cultural loss. But when you come down to a city or utility company or a commercial business, they have other concerns as well. They want to know how do we see well? How do we save energy? And luckily for us, the same things you do to prevent sky pollution are beneficial in all those areas.

BLOCK: Which would be what?

Ms. ALVAREZ: Use rational lighting levels--don't overkill; don't underkill. Use the amount of light you need for the task. Only point the light where you need it.

BLOCK: I was interested to learn that another problem with sort of this increasing brightness is that it can have a
real adverse effect on wildlife, on plants and animals and migrating birds, those sorts of things.

All Things Considered

August 8, 2001

Page 6

Ms. ALVAREZ: Humans as well, yeah, the whole photobiology issue, we call it--how lighting affects humans, plants, animals, neighboring ecosystems. It's very pervasive. All life on this planet evolves with this circadian rhythm, this day/night cycle, and it goes to the basics of our health, whether it's a tree that when it's near a parking lot where the lights are kept on all the time--it thinks that it is long days too far into the fall, and it delays in dropping its leaves and it's more prone to disease--or whether it is birds that are flying into buildings when they're trying to migrate from one place to another or they're being distracted by search lights and flying around and around them until they drop from exhaustion because they can't navigate; or whether it's humans--we also have this day/night cycle and that is critical to our health. There's a lot of research out there now looking into what are the hormones affected by light and how do we deal with light to promote health rather than hinder it. We do need that period of darkness in our lives.

BLOCK: What do you think, in the bigger scheme of things, in sort of the cosmic scheme of things, we lose when we become more and more unable to see stars at night?

Ms. ALVAREZ: It's so basic to our culture. We lose a lot. I mean, even now the stars are like an endangered species. And if you look back through history, you see so much of our culture based on the views of the stars--science, poetry, art; inspiration comes from those stars. Think of as a teen-ager, you know, how you would walk out into your back yard and look up and say, 'Oh, my gosh.' It really helps you find your place. Right now, in order to go see the Milky Way, you need to be able to get in the car and drive away from where you live and that, to me, is tragic. I want my kids to be able to look up from their back yard and see the stars. I want them to have that as part of their life.

BLOCK: Elizabeth Alvarez of the International Dark Sky Association. We reached her in Tucson.

(Soundbite of music)

LINDA WERTHEIMER (Host): This is NPR, National Public Radio.

LINDA WERTHEIMER, host:

MELISSA BLOCK, host:

And I'm Melissa Block.

One hundred people are under arrest in a government sting operation against child pornography that was purchased online. The announcement came two days after the owners of a company that distributed the pornography were sentenced to between 14 years and life in prison. Investigators then tracked down dozens of consumers in the largest case of its kind to date. NPR's Barbara Bradley has more.

BARBARA BRADLEY reporting:

If anything epitomizes the dual nature of the Internet, it is child pornography. Today Attorney General John Ashcroft was quick to note the Internet is a great learning tool, but, he said...

Mr. JOHN ASHCROFT (Attorney General): Today's Internet has also become the new marketplace for child pornography. In their efforts to stop the electronic proliferation of these obscene materials, our law enforcement officers are often outgunned and out-teched by the profit-driven purveyors of child pornography.

BRADLEY: Which made today's announcement pretty sweet for federal investigators. Ashcroft said a hundred people have been arrested for buying child pornography over the Internet and the investigation is continuing. The case began in 1999. Investigators received about 250 complaints about a Web site called Landslide. The site was

All Things Considered

August 8, 2001

Page 7

owned by Thomas and Janice Reedy in Ft. Worth, Texas. It was a hugely popular site--250,000 subscribers worldwide--and it made the couple almost instant millionaires. Chief postal inspector Kenneth Weaver said they were sometimes grossing more than a million dollars a month with an illegal product.

Mr. KENNETH WEAVER (Chief Postal Inspector): The Reedys were living very well, enjoying a spacious home, driving highly priced automobiles and living a grand lifestyle at the expense of children who were sexually exploited.

BRADLEY: The company provided a credit card verification service that allowed online buyers into Web sites, sites that showed graphic videos and pictures of children being forced to have sex. The Reedys were convicted and sentenced to prison, but, Weaver said, getting the Reedys was not enough.

Mr. WEAVER: The consumer or user of child pornography is no less responsible for sexual exploitation of children than is the producer or distributor.

BRADLEY: So the US postal inspection service, Customs, the FBI and the Dallas Police Department launched Operation Avalanche to go after the users. The undercover agents essentially took over the Web site, then used credit card numbers and other records to figure out which customers to target. Many of Landslide's customers were seeking adult pornography, which is not illegal. But according to postal inspector Ray Smith, some people wanted illicit material.

Mr. RAY SMITH (Postal Inspector): During that undercover contact, all of these individuals whose homes and places of business that we searched indicated a clear desire to either have sex with children or obtain child pornography materials. They clearly indicated the ages of the children they were interested in and the nature of the sexual activity that they were interested in.

BRADLEY: The agents then delivered the child pornography in so-called controlled circumstances, delivering it and then immediately using federal or state search warrants to inspect the buyer's premises. Kenneth Weaver says what they found was shocking. One man worked at a psychiatric hospital that handles abused children. Another was a computer consultant in North Carolina.

Mr. WEAVER: In his home, postal inspectors and investigators from the North Carolina task force found a collection of videotapes produced by this individual depicting the sexual abuse of a number of young girls. One of these girls was only four years old.

BRADLEY: In fact, federal officials said there's a strong link between looking at sexual pictures of children and abusing them. About 36 percent of those arrested for possessing child pornography in the past four years were molesters.

Child pornography is so offensive that even privacy advocates applauded the government's operation. Ari Schwartz at the Center for Democracy and Technology says it's a clear-cut case.

Mr. ARI SCHWARTZ (Center for Democracy and Technology): Child pornography is illegal online or offline, and law enforcement has the tools out there to go and enforce these cases, and we should be helping them do that rather than discouraging them.

BRADLEY: Ashcroft said the investigation is continuing and, with 250,000 subscribers to look at, more indictments are expected. Barbara Bradley, NPR News, Washington.

LINDA WERTHEIMER, host:

In Massachusetts, the Catholic Conference has switched positions on a bill requiring priests to report suspicion of child abuse to the state Department of Social Services. Teachers, doctors, day-care workers and guidance counselors are currently required to report possible child abuse and can be fined $1,000 for failing to do so. The

All Things Considered

August 8, 2001

Page 8

bill now makes an exception for information learned in the confessional. The church had opposed the bill but yesterday withdrew that opposition after the new exception was added.

We're joined by Kristen Lombardi of the Boston Phoenix newspaper. Kristen Lombardi, was there any kind of connection between the decision that the church made and an infamous case of failure to report child sexual abuse that occurred in Boston involving a priest?

Ms. KRISTEN LOMBARDI (Boston Phoenix): Well, I suspect that there was a connection, and the reason I suspect so is because that particular case, which involves a defrocked priest by the name of John Geoghan, has been in the public eye in the past few months. John Geoghan is now a defrocked priest. He worked at the Archdiocese of Boston for some 30 years. He's been accused of molesting more than a hundred children. There are various civil lawsuits pending against him as well as church officials--five bishops and also Cardinal Bernard Law, who is archbishop of the Boston Archdiocese. These are negligence claims. The victims accused church officials of knowing of Geoghan's abuse and doing nothing about it. There are 84 pending cases involving Geoghan. In 25 of those cases the plaintiffs have succeeded in naming Cardinal Law a defendant, and in the past months, Cardinal Law has filed his legal response to their complaints. This has brought a great deal of attention back on the Geoghan cases. The Geoghan cases have been going on now since 1996, but Cardinal Law's legal response has brought a new attention to this case.

WERTHEIMER: If this law which is now pending in the Massachusetts Legislature were in effect, had been in effect, presumably that kind of knowledge that Cardinal Law says he had would have required him to go to the state authorities and report it.

Ms. LOMBARDI: Oh, certainly. Certainly. If clergy members had a legal obligation to report suspected child abuse, Geoghan would have been stopped. Back in 1973, one mother, for instance, approached her neighborhood pastor and voiced her suspicions that Geoghan was molesting four of her sons, and she did this not in the confines of the confessional, but, you know, in an office in the church itself. Now if this legislation had been in place, that pastor would have been obligated to report her suspicions to state officials.

WERTHEIMER: What about public opinion in Boston? How do people in Boston feel about this legislation? Do you think it has popular support?

Ms. LOMBARDI: Oh, I certainly think it has popular support. I mean, this piece of legislation is a modest proposal. There are 28 states now in the country that have similar pieces of legislation in place. This bill actually exempts privileged communication. Some states don't do that.

WERTHEIMER: Well, now Boston is a heavily Catholic state. If the...

Ms. LOMBARDI: It is a heavily Catholic state, yes.

WERTHEIMER: If the Catholic Church is now for this piece of legislation, or at least not against it, is it going to pass? And would it have, do you think, much practical effect?

Ms. LOMBARDI: I think it will pass, now that the church has lifted its opposition. The church has long been seen as the main impediment to this bill. Would it have a practical effect? I think that the Geoghan case shows it would have a practical effect. It would have just as practical effect as requiring therapists or teachers or counselors or--I mean, we even require dentists in Massachusetts to report suspected child abuse.

WERTHEIMER: Kristen Lombardi, thank you very much.

Ms. LOMBARDI: Thanks.

WERTHEIMER: Kristen Lombardi writes for the Boston Phoenix newspaper. She joined us from WBUR in Boston.

All Things Considered

August 8, 2001

Page 9

MELISSA BLOCK, host:

In India, a young couple has been killed allegedly by members of both their families. The couple's crime? Falling in love across caste lines. In the 54 years since independence, India has tried to lessen the inequalities of the rigid Hindu caste system through legislation and affirmative action programs. But as NPR's Michael Sullivan reports from New Delhi, the caste system remains strong and its brand of justice swift and violent.

MICHAEL SULLIVAN reporting:

He was a member of India's highest caste, a Brahmin. She was a member of the lower-caste Jat community. According to police, Vishal and Sonu would meet frequently, surreptitiously, near a tree in their village of Ali Pour(ph) in Uttar Pradesh. Their parents disapproved, but the two sweethearts ignored them. Last night, according to district police superintendent Vekay Moriya, the couple was spotted by a villager who informed both families. According to police, nearly the entire village watched as the two were taken to the roof of a nearby building and hanged. Uttar Pradesh's home minister, Rangnaf Mishra(ph), says police didn't find out about the hangings until much later.

Mr. RANGNAF MISHRA (Uttar Pradesh Home Minister): (Through Translator) Because both the families were involved and all the villagers were involved, nobody reported the incident, and when the police finally heard about it and went to the village, no one was willing to talk about it.

SULLIVAN: Police superintendent Vekay Moriya says seven members of the two families who acted in concert have been arrested, along with many of those who watched and did nothing.

Mr. VEKAY MORIYA (District Police Superintendent): We have arrested the culprits--parents of the girl and the relatives of the boy--the boy's mother, the boy's brother. ...(Unintelligible) they have been arrested by the police and they are being sent to jail, along with the villagers who have connived with such barbaric incidents. So we are taking a strong and stringent action against all these culprits.

SULLIVAN: Although many social scientists say there has been some erosion of India's rigid caste system in the past few decades, the idea of cross-caste marriages is still abhorrent to many here, especially those who live in the country's villages, more than 70 percent of the country's population.

Mr. ASHISH NANDI (Center for the Study of Developing Societies): Endogamy is very common in India and people do expect their progenies to marry within the same caste, even if that means advertising in the newspapers for a prospective bride or a groom.

SULLIVAN: Ashish Nandi(ph) is with the Center for the Study of Developing Societies in New Delhi. He says the apparent joint decision by the families to kill the children may have been an attempt to avoid a caste conflict in the village.

Mr. NANDI: Both the families felt that this was the teen-age (unintelligible) and that they would have to oppose it lest other members of the family either follow this example of precedent or lest other members of the family are handicapped by the fact that one of the family has married outside caste, and their marriage prospects are jeopardized. That is possible, and that will be probably the easiest explanation.

SULLIVAN: A UN-sponsored conference on racism is scheduled for next month in South Africa. Indian non-governmental activists are lobbying hard to get the issue of caste added to the conference agenda. Michael Sullivan, NPR News, New Delhi.

(Soundbite of music)

All Things Considered

August 8, 2001

Page 10

LINDA WERTHEIMER (Host): Reforming the Olympic Committee. A senior official says the efforts have not gone far enough. That story next on ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.

MELISSA BLOCK, host:

It's ALL THINGS CONSIDERED from NPR News. I'm Melissa Block.

LINDA WERTHEIMER, host:

And I'm Linda Wertheimer.

The International Olympic Committee just can't seem to escape the corruption scandal over Salt Lake City's Olympic bid. The city's 2002 Winter Games begin exactly six months from today, and yesterday the IOC's new president toured Salt Lake City's Olympic venues. But even as Jacques Rogge praised the preparations, another senior IOC official raised new and serious questions about the group's response to the scandal. From Salt Lake City, NPR's Howard Berkes reports.

HOWARD BERKES reporting:

Canadian lawyer Richard Pound is a 20-year veteran of the International Olympic Committee. He led the group's internal probe of the Salt Lake City scandal. He heads the Olympic anti-doping effort. He negotiated the billion-dollar corporate and broadcast agreements that enrich the Games. And he also kept Olympic sponsors and broadcasters on board after the scandal broke.

Mr. RICHARD POUND (Former International Olympic Committee Member): I felt I had an obligation to all of our sponsors and broadcasters to whom I had made promises during the depths of the Salt Lake City scandal that there would be IOC reform and that, would they please stay with us during this difficult time. And on the basis of my credibility they did.

BERKES: Pound believes International Olympic Committee members rejected reform and his commitment to sponsors in last month's election of a new IOC leadership. He finished third in the race for the IOC president, then wrote letters to Olympic sponsors and broadcasters suggesting they be wary of the IOC.

Mr. POUND: The person most identified with solving the crisis in Salt Lake and calling for the reforms and raising the money for the Olympic movement and making the most inroads in the fight against doping in sport fared the worst of all. Statistically, it's a message that's all too apparent and that'll be very important for the new president to show that even though he may have been elected by the old system, he is fully committed to ongoing reform.

BERKES: Pound says this isn't simply sour grapes. The candidate finishing second in the presidential race and a winning candidate for vice president were punished in the scandal. Kim Un-yong of South Korea and Vitaly Smirnov of Russia were given serious warnings for appearing to use their influence to gain favors from Salt Lake Olympic bidders. Pound also wrote sponsors that two of the leading candidates, including newly elected president Jacques Rogge, condemned commercialization of the Games during their campaigns.

Mr. POUND: They should be concerned that this election result may show either a disregard or even a contempt for the providers of the resources that have made the Olympic movement both viable and free from governmental influence.

BERKES: Olympic officials say Pound's letter is a result of his deep disappointment in losing the election. But they still scrambled to reassure Olympic sponsors. In Salt Lake City yesterday, Jacques Rogge was forced to defend the IOC while asserting the scandal is history.

All Things Considered

August 8, 2001

Page 11

Mr. JACQUES ROGGE (President, International Olympic Committee): For me, the case is clear: The IOC is reformed, the IOC has changed. This is a new IOC, and we're going to improve it on a continuous basis in the future.

BERKES: Rogge also noted that the IOC will revisit its reform effort after the Salt Lake City Olympics. Some IOC members grumble about the reforms, especially the ban on visits to cities bidding for the Games. Peter Franklin(ph) of Coca-Cola says the letter won't affect Coke's 74-year-long sponsorship of the Olympics.

Mr. PETER FRANKLIN (Coca-Cola): We look at the totality of the IOC's reforms and actions over the past, say, two years and really look at all of those actions in the aggregate, and we feel that to date the reforms appear to be working and moving in the right direction.

BERKES: Franklin also says Rogge has reassured Coke that the IOC is committed to sponsors.

Mr. FRANKLIN: He has expressed his continuing commitment to the commercial programs that are in place, so at this point we continue to feel very supported by the IOC and look forward to continuing to work with them.

BERKES: Pound resigned his IOC leadership post, but Rogge and others say he's still welcome back. Howard Berkes, NPR News, Salt Lake City.

MELISSA BLOCK, host:

And now a story from Kansas and a mysterious invasion at the Wichita home of Paul Corn.

Mr. PAUL CORN (Wichita, Kansas): It was last Friday afternoon, and we'd been out playing golf. I had some family in town. And we were in the pool, and one of the people said, 'Look, there's something spiraling down from the sky.' And we looked up there and saw it, and then we saw another one. And then our eyes focused farther up in the sky and there was a whole cloud of these things. There were thousands of them.

BLOCK: Thousands.

Mr. CORN: Thousands. They were fluttering and sparkling a little bit, and every once in a while one would spiral down, and it was probably--it's hard to judge distance vertically, but it was at least a thousand feet up in the air.

BLOCK: Wow. That must have been a sight.

Mr. CORN: It was. It was just pretty bizarre.

BLOCK: Now at that point did you pretty much say, 'Everybody out of the pool. We don't know what's coming in'?

Mr. CORN: Yeah. Well, everyone was out of the pool by then, looking up into the sky. And finally, one of them hit the top of the house, and we saw that it was a corn leaf. They weren't actually corn husks, but they were leaves from the corn plant, and they were about 18--most of them were about 18 inches long and they were very brown, very brittle. They covered quite a large block area in the east side of Wichita.

BLOCK: So not just in your yard.

Mr. CORN: Not just in our yard, no. It was over a pretty extensive area.

BLOCK: Was it the kind of thing that you walk up to your neighbors sort of sheepishly and say, 'You know, I got a question to ask you. Did you see any corn leaves falling out of the sky?'

All Things Considered

August 8, 2001

Page 12

Mr. CORN: Actually, what we did was we called the newspaper to see if anyone had reported any of this, and they hadn't. So that's when the newspaper reporter came out.

BLOCK: Have you gotten any sort of satisfying explanation of how this happened?

Mr. CORN: Actually, in the newspaper today, there was a follow-up article. They were talking to meteorologists and county agents and that type of thing, and they think the only explanation anyone has is that it was a large whirlwind or, you know, just a big dust devil type of thing that picked up a lot of these corn leaves and were just blown over into this area and, for some reason, you know, the currents changed right above our house and they started to fall down.

BLOCK: Here's one thing I don't understand, though. I mean, you certainly have a whole lot of corn out there in Kansas and you have a whole lot of wind. No one seems to have ever seen anything like this before.

Mr. CORN: There was a quote in the paper from one of the meteorologists here in town and he said he's been here 10 years and has never heard of anything like that ever happening. And they really basically could not have come from this area because the corn we do have isn't at that stage, you know, where it's all dry and brittle yet. But, yes, it was something that, you know, if you told someone, they would obviously think it was a joke or a prank or maybe had a few too many cold beers after the golf game kind of deal.

BLOCK: Well, since you mentioned that, it does bear mentioning that your name is Paul Corn and our suspicions were raised instantly that maybe this whole thing was just a big hoax.

Mr. CORN: I think that's what gained everyone's attention, was that we were having an impromptu Corn family reunion and the corn starts falling out of the sky.

BLOCK: Good thing your name's not Fish.

Mr. CORN: Right. Exactly.

BLOCK: Well, Paul Corn, thanks so much.

Mr. CORN: Thank you very much. I appreciate the interview.

BLOCK: Talking with us from Wichita, the evermore appropriately named Paul Corn.

(Credits)

BLOCK: I'm Melissa Block.

LINDA WERTHEIMER (Host): And I'm Linda Wertheimer. You're listening to ALL THINGS CONSIDERED from NPR News.