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BOB SCHIEFFER, host:

Today on FACE THE NATION, the United States and China. The White House says that first lady Hillary Rodham Clinton is going to next month's UN women's conference in Beijing; the leading Republican presidential candidates say she shouldn't. Since the decision to go came just one day after the Chinese released American human rights activist Harry Wu, they see it as kowtowing to a brutal regime. Is it? Or is it a serious first step toward repairing badly strained relations with China?

Today we'll get three views. We'll hear from UN Ambassador Madeleine Albright, who will head the US delegation to the conference; from Senator Dianne Feinstein, who carried a personal message from the president to Beijing just before Wu was released; and then we'll go to former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger for analysis. What to do about China on FACE THE NATION.

Announcer: FACE THE NATION, with chief Washington correspondent Bob Schieffer.

And now from CBS News in Washington, Bob Schieffer.

SCHIEFFER: And welcome again to the broadcast. We start today in our Washington studio with the US ambassador to the United Nations, Madeleine Albright. Joining in the questioning this morning, Elaine Sciolino of The New York Times.

Madam Ambassador, thank you very much for joining us. The news from Beijing this morning, and there is some news: Undersecretary of State Peter Tarnoff, who has--has been meeting with the Chinese leadership, says that President Clinton now hopes to meet with the Chinese president in October. What can you tell us about that?

Ambassador MADELEINE ALBRIGHT (United Nations Ambassador): Well, I spoke to Peter Tarnoff just before I came on the program. He is saying that this was a very positive visit, that they had good discussions about a whole series of issues that concern us between the Chinese and ourselves and he did say that preparations were on track for some high-level meetings this fall.

Secretary Christopher is going to be at the UN general assembly in September, and he may meet at that stage and then the possibility of a meeting between the two presidents in October. So he assesses his trip as a very useful one. Not everything has been ironed out, but some of the momentum in terms of our relationship with the Chinese has been regained.

SCHIEFFER: So you think the relationship is back on track, as it were?

Amb. ALBRIGHT: Well, it--I think it is back on track; that doesn't mean that everything has been resolved. We continue to have serious questions about their nuclear testing, about some of their policies, vis a vis transfer of missile technology, their--some of their threatening behavior towards Taiwan. But I think that at least this is a very important step in discussions and in getting the relationship back on track.

SCHIEFFER: Can you say yet what kind of a meeting this is going to be? I mean, doe--does--is the administration envisioning a meeting at the UN, for example, or would this be a full-fledged state visit to Washington?

Amb. ALBRIGHT: I think those are exactly the kinds of things that are going to be discussed, and there will be some preparatory meetings before that. There is no point in having huge meetings which are not properly prepared, but I think, from having talked to Mr. Tarnoff just a while ago, his sense is that those preparations will begin and the de--those kinds of decisions are in the process of being made.

SCHIEFFER: So there could be a state visit--full-fledged state visit? You--they haven't decided on it yet, but that is one of the options...

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Amb. ALBRIGHT: I--I--I...

SCHIEFFER: ...if I understand what you're saying.

Amb. ALBRIGHT: I'm not sure about that, frankly. I think, basically, there would be a meeting of some kind, and whether it would take place in New York or in Washington--that part has not been determined.

SCHIEFFER: Elaine?

Ms. ELAINE SCIOLINO (The New York Times): But the Chinese have asked repeatedly for such a summit meeting in Washington. This would be a big boon for the Chinese president if he could get such an invitation. Do you think, at this stage, that Chen Ziming deserves an invitation to Washington?

Amb. ALBRIGHT: Elaine, I think the important point here is to think about the importance of having a functional relationship with the Chinese. We know that having relations with a country of that size, with that many people where we have so many subjects to discuss, is key. I am not prepared at this moment to discuss where or the modalities of the meeting. Peter Tarnoff has just said to me that it was a positive session that they've had in Peking, Beijing--that that is the important part, and we will see where the preparations lead.

Ms. SCIOLINO: If I could ask you about Mrs. Clinton's decision to go to Beijing, now that she has decided to go, what message is she prepared to deliver to the Chinese on its own human rights performance?

Amb. ALBRIGHT: Let's get something totally straight about this. There is a women's conference in Beijing. It is the fourth women's conference; it's incredibly important to the women of the world, more than half the population of the world. The United States has 130 million women. We are going to that conference in order to represent the women. Mrs. Clinton's primary message at the conference is one in support of the women's agenda. She has considered that very important.

I have also watched her when she's come to New York a number of times to meet with women from all over the world. She has a magic quality in the way that she delivers that message. That is going to be the primary purpose of her message. We will, however--and I will be speaking in China, also--make very clear what we believe are--is appropriate behavior not only by China, by other--but by other countries, towards their women, which is a human rights issue and that is the context in which we will be dealing.

SCHIEFFER: So--so what you're saying is that she is going as--to this conference; she is not going as a representative of the United States government, but she will speak out on issues such as human rights.

Amb. ALBRIGHT: Mrs. Clinton will go and deliver a very strong message. She's going to be talking about human rights and women's rights. That is what the purpose of her visit is, and it's to energize the women's agenda throughout the world.

Ms. SCIOLINO: But you're sounding as if Mrs. Clinton will not raise such issues as China's practice of forced sterilization, of forced abortion, of its mandatory one-child policy, for example.

Amb. ALBRIGHT: Those issues will be raised.

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Ms. SCIOLINO: By Mrs. Clinton?

Amb. ALBRIGHT: I have not--her statement is in the process of being prepared. I have said that those are issues that I will raise. Mrs. Clinton's message is being created. As you know, the--the decision was just made to have her go, and I think that we can all be sure that Mrs. Clinton will be very forthright in what she has to say.

SCHIEFFER: Harry Wu, the American human rights activist who was just released from China that precluded all of this, said, 'Whatever she does there is going to be interpreted as a victory for China.'

Amb. ALBRIGHT: Well, I think that we're all very glad to have Mr. Harry Wu back in the United States, where he is free to make statements such as that. I think that that is a sign of the country we have: that he can say what he says. We believe that Mrs. Clinton's going is a victory for women and women's issues and the importance that the Clinton administration places on the women's agenda.

SCHIEFFER: Could--was there a--was there a possibility that her--her visit--this whole controversy that erupted around her visit sort of intruded on American foreign policy? Would it have been better in the long run had she not expressed a desire to go earlier on?

Amb. ALBRIGHT: I don't think so. I mean, I think that it clearly has become kind of--everybody got highly involved in whether she was going or not but misunderstood her reasons for wanting to go. She and I have spoken a great deal about this, and her desire to go is that she is passionately interested in women's issues. And she believed that what she could add to the conference by showing America's support for the women's agenda, which includes human rights for women--specifically, to try to end domestic violence, to show the fact that women should have access to education, girl children--she's already spoken about that at another UN conference in Copenhagen--about the need for women's health throughout entire life cycle of women, about the necessity for shared roles within family between men and women. These are issues that Mrs. Clinton cares about, and there was no deal or anything in terms of Harry Wu and her going to the conference. The point is that she believes and we fully want her to be able to express those views at a women's conference in China.

SCHIEFFER: Madam Ambassador, we want to thank you for coming. I understand your daughter is getting married next week. You're going to take a little time off to be a mom for a week.

Amb. ALBRIGHT: Going to try.

SCHIEFFER: And then you're off to China.

Amb. ALBRIGHT: Yes.

SCHIEFFER: Our best wishes to you. When we come back in a moment, we'll talk to Dianne Feinstein, who's just back from China, in a minute.

(Commercial break)

SCHIEFFER: And we're back now with the Democratic senator from California, Dianne Feinstein, who is just back from China. She held 20 hours of talks with top Chinese officials last week. She joins us from our bureau in San Francisco. And Senator Feinstein, it's my understanding that you took a personal

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message from the president to the president of China regarding Harry Wu, because you were there while he was still being held. Are you at liberty to tell us what that--what that message was?

Senator DIANNE FEINSTEIN (Democrat, California): Yes, I--I am. The president called while I was in Beijing, before I met with President Jiang Zemin, and asked me to reiterate to him that he would be very appreciative of a gesture, which would be the release of Harry Wu, and indicated that he did want to work with the president of China to try to co-chart a better course of relations for our two countries.

SCHIEFFER: Go ahead. I'm sorry.

Sen. FEINSTEIN: Well, I was just going to say that in there, you mentioned the 20 hours of discussions...

SCHIEFFER: Mm-hmm.

Sen. FEINSTEIN: ...that I had with two deputy foreign ministers, a vice premiere and about four hours of discussion with President Jiang Zemin. I--I've been reading the American press, and it's rather interesting to me how focused the debate becomes on issues, whether Mrs. Clinton goes to China or not. I think if we're really interested in human rights what, as a nation we ought to do, is help the Chinese in the evolution of an independent judicial system and one that has due process of law. The Chinese have indicated an interest in pursuing that course, and I believe that that's really what's going to make the difference. The Chinese put forward this gesture in releasing Harry Wu. There was no quid pro quo. I was told the morning of his release by an emissary from the president that he would be released. I was also told that President Jiang Zemin is hopeful that he and President Clinton can sit down and chart the course of Sino-American relations into the next decade.

I want to say one other thing. I--I'm very concerned. I see back in Washington a kind of polarizing instinct. China is many different things, and the basic foundation of our relationship, as I'm sure Dr. Kissinger will talk about, are the three communique and a one-China policy. If we stand by that one-China policy, it is my very firm belief that we have the opportunity to really develop a relationship with China that can be helpful in nuclear proliferation, by ending it; arms control, resolving many trade problems that we have between our two countries, and also seeing China develop as a peaceful and stable anchor in Asia.

SCHIEFFER: All right.

Ms. SCIOLINO: But, Senator...

Sen. FEINSTEIN: To me is a very important goal.

Ms. SCIOLINO: But Senator Feinstein, the Chinese have not made the American job any easier. China's human rights record has not improved since the United States extended Most Favored Nation trade benefits a year ago, and it...

Sen. FEINSTEIN: Well--yeah...

Ms. SCIOLINO: If anything, things have gotten much, much worse in the past year. We don't even have ambassadors in each country because of the Chinese decisions.

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Sen. FEINSTEIN: Well, the ambassadorial point is right, Elaine. I've been going to China since 1979, and I can tell you that the situation in China is much better for people, much freer than it was in 1979. I visited China virtually every other year for a substantial period of time. I can tell you that Chinese television has changed. Now individual rights relating to individuals and the government and the systems of laws that exists in China is still extraordinarily primitive and by our standards not good at all. Having said that, what's happening in China, the development of China, its opening to the West, its easing of a centralized totalitarian control, much more tending toward an economic democracy, is very, very profound.

And, you know, I'm one that believes eventually you cannot have an economic democracy and not have social democracy follow. The key to the United States is how we develop these trends and that we do not push China into an adversarial Soviet Union kind of situation.

SCHIEFFER: All right.

Sen. FEINSTEIN: So I think this is a very pivotal time in that regard.

SCHIEFFER: All right. Well, thank you very much, Senator, and I know that you--you're coming to Washington--next week, I believe it is--to brief the president on your trip. Thank you again.

Sen. FEINSTEIN: Thank you.

SCHIEFFER: For some perspective we're going to turn now to former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, who is joining us this morning from Martha's Vineyard. Well, first, Mr. Kissinger, let me ask you about the news out of Beijing this morning that the United States undersecretary of state, Peter Tarnoff, says that President Clinton now wants to meet with the Chinese president. Is that good news, bad news? How do you evaluate that?

Dr. HENRY KISSINGER (Former Secretary of State): I welcome that news. I believe that Sino-American relations are in need of a high-level review so that both sides can decide in which direction to go, where they can cooperate and where they may have to disagree. And I believe that a meeting between President Clinton and the Chinese president will be a very important step in that direction.

SCHIEFFER: What kind of meeting should it be, Dr. Kissinger? I would guess the Chinese would like to have a full-scale state visit at the White House so they can say that this administration did more for them than the visiting president from Taiwan. Should it go that far or should it just be a meeting?

Dr. KISSINGER: Well, I don't think the purpose of the meeting is to make a distinction. I think a--depending on what the preparations will show, and working with it, perhaps with the White House with a--with some social event thrown in would probably be an appropriate measure, provided that the preparations show that there is some progress on issues that concern us.

Ms. SCIOLINO: Dr. Kissinger, you have said that relations with China are on a collision course. You have told this to the president in a private meeting.

Dr. KISSINGER: Yes.

Ms. SCIOLINO: You've today said there should be a high-level review. If you were still sitting in the White House today, what would you be doing differently from this president and his team?

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Dr. KISSINGER: Well, first of all, I believe that the steps that have been taken by the administration in the last few weeks, I support. The problem has been that in the earlier period there has been a tendency to set up a checklist of American preferences and to treat the Chinese as if they were passing some sort of examination in their--how they were performing on our set of priorities on their domestic--mostly on issues that they consider within their domestic jurisdiction. What really is of concern--should be of concern to both of our countries is this: Japan is undergoing a transformation. Korea has major changes. India is emerging. Southeast Asia is--is growing. Russia is developing new positions in Asia. How do the United States and China view their positions in relation to all these tendencies? And my view is that for both of us, it is better if we are perceived to be in close consultation than if every other country can count on our adversarial relationship.

SCHIEFFER: Doctor...

Dr. KISSINGER: So we, for once, ought to talk about strategic and geopolitical issues and not simply on the ag--on the agenda that has been the case up till now.

SCHIEFFER: Dr. Kissinger, is China a nuclear threat and should we begin to think of China as having the potential to be the Soviet Union of the '90s? I know--When was it?--a couple weeks ago, they fired these short-range missiles, which clearly demonstrated and--and clearly their intent was to show that they have missiles that can reach Tokyo or could reach Taiwan. Do they, at this point, pose a nuclear threat to the United States, or will they in the future?

Dr. KISSINGER: At this moment they do not pose a nuclear threat to the United States, and for the next 25 years I don't foresee that they will develop even a fraction of the nuclear capability that, for example, Russia has, and we don't consider Russia a nuclear threat anymore. So the key is whether we can develop a political relationship with China that emphasizes the common interests we have. And I am very worried that as sen--that as senators, that we are talking ourselves into a state of mind in which we're trying to repeat in Asia some of the experiences of Europe. But in Asia there would be no takers. There's no NATO possible in Asia against China, and there's no need for it.

Ms. SCIOLINO: Dr. Kiss--Dr. Kissinger...

Dr. KISSINGER: For the next 10 years, at least, I do not foresee that there's any military confrontation necessary or conceivable.

Ms. SCIOLINO: Dr. Kissinger, have you tried to rein in your fellow Republicans in this regard? Because the Republican-dominated Congress feels much, much differently about China. In fact, if anything, the Congress is moving towards a two-China policy, and your protege, Newt Gingrich, on this very show suggested that Taiwan be independent.

Dr. KISSINGER: Newt Gingrich is not my protege. He's a friend whom I respect, and I pointed out to him that I disagreed with him, and I think he has modified his position since then. I believe relations with China are so important they cannot be made a partisan issue, and they should not be made a partisan issue. Both parties have supported good relations with China since the '70s, and insofar as I have any influence, my views are known and I do not believe that it is right to make China a partisan issue.

Ms. SCIOLINO: OK. Dr. Kissinger, so you've said the administration has made mistakes, the--the Congress has made mistakes. What about the Chinese, themselves? They are not riding on the white horse off into the sunset these days.

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Dr. KISSINGER: No.

Ms. SCIOLINO: We don't even have ambassadors in each capital because of the Chinese.

Dr. KISSINGER: Well, I believe that the issue of the ambassadors is going to be settled very quickly now that the principle of a meeting between the two presidents has been established, because it wouldn't be natural not to have ambassadors. I'm not saying the Chinese are right in all respects. I myself intervened with the Chinese on the Harry Wu case on a number of occasions and at very high levels. There are many aspects of Chinese domestic practices that I don't approve of, and we have--and the United States has certain convictions which it will express. We have, however, to bring this into relationship to the overriding issue of peace in Asia, stability in the world, in which I believe we can cooperate with China on many and most of the key issues, and this is what ought to be fostered. We should not abandon the principles in which--on which our society is founded.

SCHIEFFER: Dr. Kissinger, I'm afraid we're going to have to leave it there. Thank you very much for joining us morning with that analysis. We'll be back in just a minute with a final word.

(Commercial break)

SCHIEFFER: Finally, a closing thought about all--about, of all things, the obituary page. Somebody, I think it was Ronald Reagan, actually, once said he liked to start the day by turning to the obituary page in the newspaper because it was such a pleasure to discover his name was not listed there.

Well, I've also reached the part of life where I check the obits more closely than I once did. But when two friends recently told me on separate occasions that the obituary page in The New York Times had become their favorite part of the newspaper, it occurred to me that we're attracted to obits for more than just a confirmation that we're still alive. And I believe a part of that attraction has a way to do with the way we define news. Walter Cronkite once observed that, by nature, most news is bad or at least depressing. 'It's news in the neighborhood when someone's cat runs off,' he said. 'All the cats and dogs that stayed home are not news.'

That's why so much of a newspaper or a television newscast is filled with accounts of things that have gone wrong--policies that collapsed, plans that backfired, planes that crashed, hypocrisy that's been laid bare, and people whose bad side got the best of them. It is not until we get to the obituary page, especially the Times' obituary page, which is so well-written and researched, that we find stories about those who actually accomplished something--people people who invented things or found cures for diseases or wrote books that mattered, who were simply good bosses or conscientious workers or loving mothers and fathers.

The obituaries remind us that there's a lot more going on in the world than just the news. So if you're feeling low, here's a summer reading tip: Check the obit page. Have a nice day.

That's our broadcast. John Roberts will have the rest of the day's news tonight on the "CBS Evening News." Thanks for watching. We'll see you next week on FACE THE NATION.

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