*

TELCORN

Eliott Richardson/Mr. Kissinger

2/3/73 1:20 a.m.

R: ---has been the chief representative
I got a strong pitch on his behalf by Jackson when I went to see him--

K: I know, he made a strong pitch to the President too.

R: Okay, I better--since Allison is really the --the way it has worked has been the chief representative--I ought to talk to Tom I guess.

K: Yeh, just as long as it happens.

R: Okay.

K: I notice the STAR also has this story about arms aid to Laos and Cambodia and that is just mischievous

R: Yeh, that's too bad. I try to run it down and shut it off If I can. In the meanwhile I think I can pretty well assure an answer consonant with what we discussed namely that replacements can be made on the same basis as--

K: That's right.

R: And I think as soon as we reach that ____ maybe the sooner we can choke off that there is a lot of bickering over it. Then the only question would be how to get that out--

K: The best thing is we didn't say a hell of a lot until the ceasefire is actually put in.

R: The best thing to do is to precipitate the result internally and shut off the bate that way and therefore shut off leakage too.

K: Yeh.

R: Okay, I'll get on that--can I mention one thing--I forgot to bring up this morning. That is on the President's foreign policy State of the World Statement--and the timing of that and the relationship in turn to the so-called Defense report. I understand Sec. of Defense ordinarily release the Defense report concurrently with his first appearance on the Hill, in support of the DOD budget. Mahon has asked me to come up originally it was going to be next week and now it is off till the week of the 20h. When do you anticipate the State of the World message will be ready?

HK: Let me get in touch with you about that on Monday--

*

Page 2

R: How much do you care

K: In the past we have always insisted that the departmental reports follow ours

R: I feel if you insist again, I'll go along. I don't insist enough on having the defense report concurrent with my appearance before Mahon--I would want to be able to appear before Mahon in that week, but I don't have to have--I can develop a different kind of statement and issue the Defense report at a later date, if necessary. If on the other hand, don't care a whole lot,

K: We care a whole lot--the only question is whether we will--whether I can get a firm enough deadline on ours to make it a reasonable--there is no question that if the President can set a firm date fairly soon, that he will insist that his report come first. The question now is how firm a date we can set. And that's what I'd like to consider.

R: Okay and I think it is relevant because eventhough I can get by all right in the Mahon case, as the success of the appearances I make before the two authorizing committees and before the Senate appropriations committee come along it becomes harder to hold off the issuance of the report.

K: Well, we have held it last year until the last year of March.

R: Was the Defense report held then too?

K: Yes.

K: Well, I certainly can't hold my appearances off that long.

K: No, no. Nobody is asking for that.

R: Well, if it is important enough, we can do it. The only thing as a practical matter, that the Defense report serves as a kind of reference point for the successive DOD witnesses. They can tie back into it when they are being pressed on something or other.

K: I understand that. Let me check with the President on Monday.

R: All right. Thanks.

K: Good.

COMMITTEE AB
Authority E012458
By: NARA Date 05/15/94

*

TELCORN

Ron Ziegler/Mr. Kissinger

10:35 a. m. 2/3/73

RZ: Hi, Henry. I'm just going in to make the announcement---said before that when you're with Chou En-lai that you discuss Vietnam and so forth, I'm going to say this trip is not related to Vietna, but I think we should say that it may come up--it's hard to conceive that Henry Kissinger is going to sit down with Chou En-lai and not talk about Southeast Asia.

HK: I would say there is no formal agenda but--

RZ: As in the past--

HK: As in the past there is no formal agenda-but-why do we have to say it?

RZ: Well, we've always said it before.

HK: We have said it afterwards.

RZ: No, we've said it before--I was just reviewing my briefings-we have said there is no formal agenda but they will cover a whole range of world subjects which would of course include among them Vietnam.

HK: I'd say either side can bring up any topic and its probable that one of them will bring up the topic of Southeast Asia.

RZ: Right.

HK: Say as little as possible.

RZ: Okay, good.

HK: Apparently no one has figured this one out yet.

RZ: No, I'm going out there right now. So they don't beat me on the wire.

HK: Okay, good.

RZ: I'll see you afterwards.

NATIONAL
Authority
E012458
By: A. Kissinger

*

TELCORN

Mr. Kissinger/Henry Hubbard

2/3/73 12:05 p. m.

HH" Hi,

HK: How are you?

HH: Fine, how are you.

HK: Do you to tell me how to get a visa to China.

HH: (laughs) I can get you a visa for the China dinner.
I wasn't sure what you wanted, and it's a little hard to get Mel.

HK: I wanted to see whether we could delay the China dinner. Meli wrote
me a letter saying the 3rd.

HH: Yeh, we --the tentative plan was to switch it to the 3rd or 4th.
Now if that's all right, okay.

HK: Good.
The 3rd or 4th, whichever is better for him.

HH: Okay I have them try to get you a definitive word.

HK: Or to the 24th, whichever he prefers.

HH: Okay, I'll tell him. That's what I thought you wanted to know, so I
thought I could help you. I know they are already tentatively working
on the 3rd or 4th.

HK: The 3rd is what--the 3rd is Saturday?

HH I don't know, I don't have a calendar in front of me, is it Saturday?

HK: Yeh.

HH: Is that okay?

HK: That would be fine.

HH: Good. You were brilliant the other night, by the way.

HK: What--on the Kalb thing?

HH: Yeh on the Kalb thing--not as outspoken as you are in private, but

REDACTED

Authority Eo 12458
BY NARA Date 6/15/69

*

TELCOM

Mr. Kissinger/Mr. Gwertzman

12:10 p.m. 2/3/73

G: I'm calling just to sort of limit the speculation that will inevitably creep in the wake of the announcement today. I assume this will be a thorough extension of relations in the wake of the Vietnam settlement--

K: How will that limit the speculation.

G: I have --refer to items on my little checklist here--Sihounok, of course has asked to meet with you. And he of course hangs out--is there any chance you'll see him.

K: I have no plans to see him.

G: And there inevitably be speculation about the 3rd member of this triangle in Moscow--is there any immediate plans for consultations with the high Soviet leaders?

K: Well, it's a different problem with the Soviets because we are in constant touch with them, through Dobrynin.

G: Yeh. And there is no Brezhnev trip--his trip here isn't going to be any time soon or something like that,

HK: It hasn't been set yet.

G: Yeh. On the --I note the wording of the announcement today was word--for word, I think the announcement for the trip last June.

K: That's right.

G: AAnd, so it suitably diplomatically open--from what we had a couple weeks ago, you were then hopeful that the Chinese relations would have marked improvement--

K: Yeh, I still expect that.

G: Is it likely that we will be able to get something more concrete--

K: I just don't want to speculate on any outcome.

G: But the basic purpose I assume is to --for thorough discussion in the wake of the Vietnam settlement.

K: No, it's a thorough discussion --we've been meeting at about 6 mos. intervals.

*

TELCORN

Mr. Kissinger/Pierre Salinger

(Paris) 1:55 p.m. 2/3/73

PS: Thanks for taking the call. Number one, are you taking press with you to Hanoi?

HK: No.

PS: Okay, that solves that problem. In other words, no press is going with you?

HK: No.

PS: Any press getting into Hanoi while you are there?

HK: I have no way of knowing that.

PS: In other words, that is not in your department.

HK: Right.

PS: You have no ____ if they get in on their own?

HK: That's up to them.

PS: Okay fine. Very good. When are you leaving then? HK: Wed

PS: If I were to come over on Monday would you haje any time to see me Tues?

HK: No, it's impossible now.

PS: Okay.
I imagine you wouldn't have much to say anyway.

HK: I think it would be better after I get back.

PS: Do you think after you got back we could do that think we were talking about?

HK: Well, let me decide after I get back.

PS: Fine. Thank you very much for taking the call.

HK: Okay, nice to talk to you.

AUTHORITY
Authority Eo.12958
By: CF NARA Date:6/15/24

*

TELCONE

Sec. Richardson/Mr Kissinger

(Secure Phone) 2/3/73 2:12 p.m.

HK: Elliot, I am sorry to bother you again, but that paper on Taiwan is absolutely not what the President told Chou he would do. It is useless. He told Chou that within 8 months after the settlement he would withdraw forces as a result of augmentation after the Vietnam war started; he thought having gone from about 3,000 to 8,000. So that only Taiwan defense forces would stay. He didn't give any precise number, but a table is here that shows no decrease at all, and that would not be in good faith.

ER: It does involve a reduction in numbers.

HK: No, that is made up by putting in some other forces. I don't think there is much of a net reduction.

ER: Well, I didn't catch that. I will look again. I asked also for a complete annex of all the forces that were there.

HK: We mean forces which were put in there after the buildup was started. You didn't know the background, so you can't be blamed. It would be considered bad faith on our part.

ER: I will check into it.

HK: Keep it to a small group.

ER: There were only three people involved in this --Murphy, Eagleberger, and one guy working for him. I didn't go to the Chairman on it. Murphy didn't think we needed to. --partly because these ______ are air squadrons.

HK: We won't tell them what units we are pulling out.

ER: Well, if you see no objection I will talk to Moorer.

HK: Of course, but I want it please by Tuesday.

ER: We could give it to you in increments.

HK: Yes.

ER: So you could decide what combinations are the easiest ones to move and which are less easy.

HK: That would be ideal. Thank you.

ASSISTED
Authority Eo 12458
BY: CAPT. NARA Date 6/15/84

*

TELCONE

Amb. Sullivan/Kissinger

9:38 a.m. - 2/5/73

K: Hello Bill.

S: Yes, Henry.

K: I'm sitting here raising uncerted hell with my associates about
how lousy the preparations for the Hanoi trip is.

S: Well, that'll be news to them. What's the matter?

K: It's news to them that I'm raising hell.

S: Yeh.

K: Well, it's just it gives me nothing but headings of topics. I've got
to be more precise and I wonder whether Win can get in touch with
you and tell you, you know, some of the items I need.

S: Yeh. I have two items coming over to you today. One on normalization and the other on the Economic Council.

K: Good. Well I need more precision on the Economic Council and I
need more precision on the Conference. What exactly do we want?
And what exactly our various fallback positions - I mean what do
we say when they - I know we want the Secretary General as a sort
of Executive Secretary - but I mean what if that doesn't fly?

S: I thought of another fallback in which we'd have a Co-Chairman who
would not, however, actually take the chair on a rotating basis. They
would have an Executive Office that would preside on a daily basis
but he couldn't act except with the consensus of the Co-Chairmen.

K: That's ingenious. That's an ingenious idea.

S: And I've got a seating plan in which we would sit on either side of
them and take no action except by our concurrency to

K: Well, why don't we meet late afternoon - say around 5:00.

S: Five o'clock. Good enough.

K. MANKINDLIYAL
Authority Eo. 12458
BY: NARA Date 01/15/89

*

2

Sullivan/Kissinger

2/5/73 - 9:38 a.m.

K: And in the meantime - now for example you have a paper which I found interesting on the modalities of implementing Article 23.

S: Yeh, that's probably a tighter schedule than we can ever have but I thought

K: If we can spell them out a little bit and not relate it to '62, just say it as if it were a new proposal.

knowing

S: I thought *xiao* the mentality of these clowns if you can relate it to something that gives it a certain aura of authority.

K: Yeh, well that's a good point.

S: And I don't think we can ever do anything quite as rapidly as the schedule I proposed but I think it's a useful place to start out.

K: But why do we have to mention any exit points for example?

S: Simply because '62 mentions it but it was never used. Nobody's going to use them.

K: Yeh.

S: I mean not going to use them under a supervision pattern.

K: No, well that we made clear. But you see on the International Conference I had a brief talk with Dobrynin and he asked me a helluva lot of questions to which I didn't have the answer. You know, how do you discuss Laos and Cambodia? What exactly do we want for Laos and Cambodia? What do we mean by endorse and guarantee?

S: Did he give you any clue what he meant by guarantee?

K: No.

S: Because that puzzles me too.

K: Well he says they're puzzled in Moscow and I believe him.

S: Well it's a Hanoi word.

*

Sullivan/Kissinger

2/5/73 - 9:38 a.m.

3

K: Now the Chinese have mentioned it too as you saw. We've got to give them an answer incidentally.

S: Right. Winston is getting that thing over to me this morning.

K: It hasn't gone to you yet?

S: No, that was my fault because there was no security -

K: OK, it's on the way to you so if you can get me an answer to that by 5:00.

S: Oh, it's here now, I see. I got it. OK.

K: OK. Good.

S: Five o'clock then?

K: What does it say on top "Clever people leave Chinese Bill Rogers."

S: What's that? (Laughs)

K: Is that what it says in the upper-right-hand corner?

S: (Laughs) Let me just read - it says here "The year of the Buffalo. Le Duc Tho has the biggest herd in the north."

K: My problem with the book as I got it now is that it will survive about one hour of these clowns.

S: OK.

K: Well, Win knows. (Aside to Win: What was the other thing Win that I was yelling about that I wanted him to do?) Above all, if you could spell out that International Conference a little more precisely.

S: OK.

K: Good and I'll see you at 5. Thank you.

S: Bye.

NAPOLITAN
AUTHORITY
E.O. 12458
By: J. F. Stetson
NAPLES, FLA.

*

TELECON

Rowland Evans/Kissinger

9:48 a.m. - 2/5/73

K: Hello.

E: Henry, how are you, sir?

K: OK.

E: I just wanted to congratulate you on your trip to China. I wonder whether you can spend 10 minutes with me before you go.

K: Don't be so insinuating, what are you up to?

E: I haven't got anything on the fire but I'm going to be doing the Middle East week. I got to do a television show with King Hussein and I'm going down to my Virginia country estate to pay for it. The one - we just bought it this morning and I'm going down to settle accounts after one o'clock and that's about it but I really would like to see you before you go.

K: Right.

E: I know you won't tell me anything but if I had some time

K: Just to get the atmosphere.

E: Yes sir. You know I missed that interview and I was very sad about it. I didn't even know you were even going on with what's his name.

K: You were sad that I gave it or

E: No, I just wish I'd seen it. I read the transcript.

K: Oh you did.

E: Yeh. All the stories said you were tight-lipped, humorless and grim but the transcript didn't read that way.

K: Oh ;you know they have to say something.

E: Do you have any time at all? Could you possibly have a breakfast tomorrow morning?

REPRODUCIBLE
Authority E0.12458
By:bf NARA Date: 6/15/89

*

Rowland Evans

9:48 a.m., February 5, 1973

- 2 -

K: No. Wednesday, I'm leaving.

E: What time do you leave on Wednesday?

K: At 10:00.

E: Who's going with you? Winston and the usual?

K: Well, the usual group plus Dick Kennedy.

E: I wish I could come. What about late this evening?

K: Well, let me call you during the day. Are you going to be in the office?

E: I'll be back here about 3:30 or 4:00. I've got to go down and settle on this property.

K: Oh, you're going down to Virginia?

E: Yeah, down to Culpepper and then I'll come right back.

K: Well, there must be more in that columnist's business than I thought.

E: Well, that all depends on how good you are.

K: [Laughter]

E: You know what I'm hearing go around town now?

K: What?

E: That you're going to stay for 4 years.

K: Impossible. Now that you --

E: That's what I'm hearing.

K: Listen --

E: I say two at the most but --

K: That is correct. There is not one chance of it.

E: You see, I'm getting the same thing on Rogers, Henry. I mean, right now. I mean, everybody over at State -- they're all telling me there has been a fundamental change in his whole position and he's now happy. They say he got to sign the Treaty; he doesn't think you want to go back to New York

Rowland Evans/Mr. Kissinger

9:48 a.m., February 5, 1973

- 3 -

E: (cont'd) anymore and he's ready to stay for the duration if Nixon will have him. And as long as that holds, so are you.

K: Well, I don't see how -- Are we to --

E: Only if Connally came in and in succession it would create a different situation for you.

K: I have no intention no matter what else happens.

E: Well, you can't tell now, Henry.

K: I can absolutely tell now.

E: But you keep climbing one peak after another and you know they say the legacy of success spurs you on.

K: Nonsense.

E: So does Nixon and the country.

K: No, absolutely not.

E: Well, that's what they said anyway.

K: Well, that's good. Well, look, I'll try to see you for half an hour either today or tomorrow.

E: You want me to call you when I get back because I could come over any time after 5:00 before you go out to dinner or anything like that.

K: Okay, why don't you do that?

E: I'll call you at 5:00.

K: Good.

E: And then we'll get something in before 7:00.

K: Well, either today or tomorrow.

E: All right, Henry. How are you doing otherwise? Gee, this China thing was a real surprise. I figured you'd be going to Hanoi but I didn't realize you'd be going to China.

*

TELCOM

Cy Sulzberger

2/5/73 10:01 a.m.

CS: Hello Henry.

HK: Cy, I was going to call you today.

CS: I know you are the most unpredictable man in terms of geography that I have ever known. I wondered if there were any chances of seeing you before you go.

HK: I am going Wednesday morning.

CS: Oh boy. I could fly down--could I see you for a little bit tomorrow if I just flew down and back.

HK: Let me call you during the day--where can I call you.

CS: At 556-1703--p my trouble is on Wednesday I have to --

HK: Wednesday I'll

CS: ---Oh you'll be going anyway.

HK: Yeh, Wednesday is impossible.

CS: I tell you Henry I'm desperately sad about not seeing you but I wondered if I could ask you help on two things--remember last year when I talked to you and again in Paris-- China

HK: No, I have that very much in mind and I'm going to mention you to them.

CS: I am so grateful and because I've gotten no where in all that time.

HK: No, I already told your wife I would do that.

CS: I am so grateful and the second thing I wanted to ask you was I put in a call --first wrote a letter to Dwight Chapin, the President's appointment secretary who I see is no longer there--and then I just got an answer from what's his name, Ziegler, I've never dealt with Ziegler or his predecessors --Jim Hagerty or--I wanted to see him not only personally, but I wanted to ask him a question of the third volume of my book which is going to deal at length with him and he's always been very kind in seeing me in the past and I don't know how to get him directly through that armored brigade of bureaucracy.

HK: I'll mention it to him, today, but I don't expect him--he isn't seeing any newspaper people

UNCLASSIFIED
Authority E0.12958
By:TF NARA Date:6/15/89

*

TelCon

Ron Ziegler/Mr. Kissinger

11:06, Feb. 5, 1973

K: Hello.

Z: Hi, Henry.

K: Yes, Ron.

Z: You are not taking press with you?

K: Well, it's up to you.

Z: No, I mean, I feel comfortable about it, I'm getting protests in here, but I don't see that we have any obligation to take press into North Vietnam or into China. You know, you're going on a Presidential mission. Don't you agree, there's not going to be any news statement or anything out of there in any event.

K: There wasn't/at the signing in Paris either.

Z: No.

K: Look, as far as I am concerned, I get more publicity not taking press.

Z: Well, that's what I mean. I mean it's not --

K: I have no great interest in having the press.

Z: Yeah. Well what I'm going to say today is that's up to the DRV and the PRC. Of course any news organization wants to make application to go to those countries, we have no objection, and maybe encourage them, but--

K: A lot of these guys call me and say they've never been on a trip on a plane with me wo they don't know how I work. Well, it's up to you.

Z: That's just no excuse to use Henry.

K: Look, I haven't stressed this, you have.

Z: I wanted to talk to you about it, not in the context of you and the context of overall foreign policy and your assessment of it.

K-000000000.000000000
 Authority Eo 12958
 By: PC NAPAS Date 01/15/09

2

K: Well you have to decide whether we take the press, whether we can control it better than if they take the press in, or if they let no press in, where we stand compared to what--

Z: If we take them in there's no reason that we can control them better. I think the way we control the flow of information out of here, your meetings, is to make sure that any communication or any statement out of the meeting be a joint agreed peace statement.

K: Well, that's easy.

Z: Make sure, you know, pictures taken at the start, fine, but any reader release of the--

K: The only thing we can agreement to I want to get that straight-- first that there will be a simultaneous release. I cannot get agreement to the proposition that we have to clear the pictures.

Z: No, no, I understand that.

K: The pictures will be taken simultaneously, each side releases index its own.

Z: Yes.

K: You understand.

Z: Sure.

K: Now you have to tell me before I leave, you know for example, how do I get the pictures back. They may not agree to hold it for a week. How much time to you need to get that stuff back.

Z: Well, I'll have to find out about that.

K: Can you work that out.

Z: Yep. If not, we--okay, we'll have to see what we can do.

K: And secondly, I count on you to keep Herb Klein under control and let me make the following clear. He is not to deal with the information ministers in these countries either. He can tell me what he wants, and I'll raise it with Le Duc Tho and Chou. That's how I get my action, and I'll follow his guidance but I don't want him to horse around with a subordinate official of the information in this thing.

REDACTED
Authority Eo 12458
By: CAPT. NARA Date 05/04/94

*

3

Z: Year.

K: Le Duc Tho will handle whatever we agree to. Afterall he got
Murray out of there with a minimum of guidance.

Z: Right.

K: And he's going to do the same thing if he wants to play ball,
the information minister can help there. In China, we've never
had anything out of China that we didn't want out.

Z: Yeah. Okay--

K: I just don't want Herb to have daily press discussions, because
it was different when you were there. You had American press
to worry about; what the Chinese do is to put the press across
the street from the Great Hall of the People where they can just
see cars arriving, and they let them there at times when they
can clear the maximum confusion.

Z: Yeah.

K: So, just let these devious bastards handle it themselves.

Z: I think so.

K: You get Herb positioned for; me.

Z: I will.

K: Good.

Z: Okay, bye.

HANOVER, OHIO

Authority Eo 12458

By: NARA Date: 6/15/89

*

TelCon

Mr. Weinberger/Mr. Kissinger

11:15, Feb. 5, 1973

K: Hello.

W: Henry this is Cap.

K: I don't usually talk to consultants.

W: I know, I think it's pretty far down the line or I wouldn't blame you if had rather rigid policy about the whole thing. (Laughter) I'm three degrees south of limbo, so I figure you are taking the call in my hour of need. I'm calling on behalf or make a suggestion that Jospeh Martin, Jr., he's our Ambassador to the CCD, HEADing that delegation, and has sort of been in limbo himself since all of the changes at ACTA and Jerry Smith, Deborcha, and all the rest of it, might be a pretty good man to consider for one of the number of posts. He's pretty anxious to get back to his law practice in San Francisco and hasn't heard anything from anybody really since the election. I've talked to two or three people including Malek and others who are supposed to make recommendations, and I'm just kind of afraid he'll be lost. Do you know him at all, Henry.

K: No, I don't.

W: He's a very good man, very good attorney in San Francisco, and seems to have done very well with the little good he's done down there, the people seem to think very highly of him, and I didn't know if that job of permanent representative of the U. N. was still open or if--he thinks he can combine a lot of things because he said the job at the CCD hasn't been nearly enough to keep him busy. He thought maybe since they moved SALT to Geneva, he might be able to wash this CCD. That's just general conference on the disarmament. He's being going over there since--

K: Can you send me a note on it.

W: Sure, yeah, I'd be glad to do it. I was just afraid, cause he's written kind of a long final sort of letter here that maybe he was going to get away and I thought he was a pretty good man. I didn't know if you were familiar with his work or not.

K: MM No, I'm not.

W: They seem to like him over at ECDA, although that's now been reduced by a third, and it's shrinking.

*

TELCON

Jerry Schecter/Mr. Kissinger

11:57 a.m. 2/5/73

JS: Hi Henry. Getting ready to go? I'm all packed--were you able to get anything through to them?

HK: I told them that I have no objection to their letting anyone in and I've made clear that this particularly includes weeklys--that's as far as I could go.

JS: I see--

HK: I can't single anyone out--because the next time they go public, there is no telling which of my messages they may publish.

JS: Okay. I certainly appreciate that and maybe we'll hear something. What do you think about meeting you some place along the way--

HK: Like where?

JS: I gather you've got to stop some place after you get out of there--

HK: Oh you mean in between?

JS: Yeh.

HK: That's up to you.

JS: If I could have a few minutes with you if things work out that way

HK: You know, I've always done that but I'd rather not schedule that before--

JS: I understand that, good. good. Thanks a lot, I'm just trying to get organized here to get into orbit and just wondered where things were.

HK: I personally would be delighted if you were in Hanoi.

JS: I'll cable Le Duc Tho right now and say that--(laughing) I just don't know what to do anymore at this point.

HK: Well, what do they say when you apply?

JS: They haven't said anything. There are guys in Paris who said you know we are going to decide and sure you'll go and the people who have sent sort of character references haven't heard anything back either. If I am going to go I've got to go on Friday so,--I would have to go through Moscow I would think.

NATIONAL
Authority Eo 12458
By: J.P. NARA, DAE, CLS/15/09

*

Page 2

HK: I'm arriving Friday night.

JS: Then I've got to go sooner then.

HK: That is going to be one of the most touching arrival scenes every-- Le Duc Tho embracing me--dancing girls

JS: Can't I carry your bags or something-- I really would like to see that. Isn't there any way we could get a pool or something from this end.

HK: Well, that's between you and Ziegler.

JS: All right. I'm going to buy him lunch today. Thanks a lot Henry. If I'm not in Hanoi, maybe I'll be some place along the way--where are you going to stop--in Bangkok or Hong Kong

HK: Bangkok, or Hong Kong or maybe Japan, I've haven't decided yet. One of the three places.

JS: Okay. Good. I'll see you--

HK: You don't try the Chinese--the---you don't care whether they let you in or you've given up on them?

JS: No, but you're only going to be there for 4 days--do you think they'd be open to having somebody there.

HK: I have no way of knowing.

JS: Well, last time they sent Reston down to Canton when you were there--

HK: They didn't send him, they kept him there. Okay.

JS: Okay. Thanks.

AUTHORITARILY
Authority E012958-
BY: NAPA TALE 615194

*

TELCORN

Mr. Kissinger/H. J. Heinz

2/5/73 12:03 p. m.

H: Henry, good morning.

K: Jack, how are you?

H: Very well. I had hoped I might see you on Thursday night in New York, but I'll have to use this to say that--

K: What is Thursday night?

H: Last Thursday night--the dinner for Mr. Heath that the President had--

K: Oh, yes. No, I couldn't come.

H: It was just as well. Henry, what I have the joy of saying to you that we the American Bilderberg gang whom you know would like to recommend to the Prince his inviting you at our behest for the next meeting, if you might be available. It happens to take place in the merry month of May. Like the evening of the 10, 11, 12 and 13th --Fri., Sat., Sun.

K: Where?

H: In Sweden

K: (laughs)

H: Where one may take one --the last time I was there with Pete, I got photographed jumping into the ice-cold lake after a sauna bath and the caption was Prince Berna swims after a suame. But It was me. I don't know what you are like to be doing or do you?

K: No, I don't. In principle, I always like Philip DeBent and I almost certainly can't come for the whole time, but I'd like to make an effort and I could connect to something--I might stop into NATO or something like that.

H: Right. If you put down, Thursday evening, the 10th--but the sessions are the 11, 12 and up until --

K: Where is it--Saltzebaden (sp?)

H: Yeh. Right. And let me tell you what the subject matter is, which fits in with the second subject indeed is--wait--the--divergent views as to the outcome of the European defense discussions.

Authority Eo 12458
By: NARA Date: 01/05/09

*

Page 2

K: What is the first subject?

H: The first subject is -- and this really makes me --- the possibility of a European energy policy and its impact on North American relations. Now Walter Levy is doing the American piece and young Spock is doing the European one. Interestingly quickly--Spock said well until we learn what America's energy policy is we can't put our house in order and it will be damn difficult when we know that. But that's the subject, energy internationally and the defense thing.

K: Yeh.

H: I'll confirm this in a note to you. Well look

K: Look in principle let me say yes, I like to go and Builderberger's group--I've always enjoyed, I'm almost certainly not going to be able to come the whole three days--what is it--Friday, Saturday and Sunday again?

H: Yes it is.

K: And--what I might do is arrive say Friday evening

H: Let me find out the order of the subject matter because I take it-- is it what I assume right that the second subject is of greatest interest to you--or both?

K: There are both actually of interest, but the second I have more to contribute to--

H: I'll let you know the timing then.
One thing I hope I can be discreet without embarrassment; as you know we generally have the Undersecretary of State and George Ball, of course, was--came for a long time before Dean Rusk--would you find it understandable if we asked--is it Mr. Rush?

K: Ken Rush--no, I'd find it delightful.

H: Particularly that makes an important backup if you can't come at the last minute.

K: I think it is a good idea.

H: It seems to me that--it would be a good thing if you were both there.

K: Ken is a good friend of mine--no embarrassment whatsoever.

H: That's very nice--then it is a good arrangement.

REDACTED

Authority E0.2458

BY: NARA File 615949

Page 3

K: It's excellent. No problem. Incidentally, I appreciated both your letter and your wife's.

H': My dear fellow--among thousand I don't know how he could remember-
the only thing that I remember this morning is that Beatty Beale loves
you--she was on the Today show--

K: Ah huh. I didn't know that.

H: Henry, I hope to see you--You are--Douglas Fairbanks, I was staying
with--had hoped to see you again.

K: Oh in Palm Beach.

K: Well, I have no immediate plans. No.

H: I imagine you are all busy in your next trip.

K: That's right. But when I come back I am thinking of taking a vacation.
In March sometime

H: Oh well, may I drop you a note in saying how to get us in Nassau because
we'll be there.

K: Could you--I might love to do that.

H: We have a few English chums that would--very nice girlike Jane Gunther
will be there then and Bindy Lampton. All right I'll write you a
note and tell you what to do.

K: You are very nice.

H: Look forward to seeing you.

REDACTED
Authority E0 2458
By: NAPA Date 6/15/29

*

TELCONE

Fred Brisson/Kissinger

2:58 p.m. - 2/5/73

K: Hello,

B: How are you, Henry?

K: Freddie, how are you?

B: It's a happy time to talk to you.

K: Aren't you nice but you were a good friend when things were tough
too.

B: And listen I think what you're doing now and the way you're doing
it is fantastic. You're going to leave this weekend, aren't you?

K: I'm leaving on Wednesday unfortunately.

B: On Wednesday. Then we're going to miss you because Roz is coming
on Wednesday night and will be there for about 4 or 5 days.

K: Isn't that a shame.

B: I should tell you something very important is going to happen in
May. Rosalind - there's going to be a big television spectacular
at the Kennedy Center for Women of Achievement and the kind of
women it's for is people like Anne Armstrong, Katherine Graham,
women in economy business, public affairs, and so forth. It's
a big television spectacular that's going to be done at the Kennedy
Center and we'll be there for 4 or 5 days.

K: When will that be?

B: May 21st - it's a long time ahead but I thought I'd tell you so if you
are going to be there then we'll be there between the 19th and 22nd.

K: Absolutely, we must do something, but I hope we see each other before
then.

RECEIVED

Authority Eo. 12/25B
By: NAPA Date 01/01/04

*

Brisson/Kissinger

2:58 p.m. - 2/5/73

2

B: When you come back will you come back here again or will you go to the Coast or what - do you know?

K: I'll come here unless the President is still on the Coast in which case I might go out there for a couple of days.

B: We skipped the Inauguration as you probably are aware.

K: Right.

B: For a rather good purpose. You know why?

K: Our mutual friend Frank went just a little haywire.

B: Yeh, it's a pity isn't it?

K: Yeh, although he was essentially right. I wouldn't have used those words but the sentiment is correct.

B: Absolutely 100% correct. And he's always been right using those terms. Unfortunately certain things were said that

K: They didn't clean up his vocabulary.

B: That's right. That's right. When do you think you'll be back, Henry?

K: I'll be back on the 20th.

B: Now that you'll have completed the Third Act I'm anxious to book you in a play and to really get going now.

K: Well, it's the leading ladies that I have to know about before I can make any final commitment.

B: All right, I can get you Mrs. Marks (?). I had dinner with her the other night.

K: I don't want Mrs. Marcus, I know her.

B: (Laughts) You know she stayed on til 7 and left on the 9 o'clock plane on Saturday.

K: She is something.

NATIONAL RADIO
Authority Eo.1258
By:bf NARA Date: 6/15/69

*

Brisson/Kissinger

2:58 p.m. - 2/5/73

3

B: She's unbelievable.

K: She's a determined lady.

B: She sure is.

K: She went in to see the President for 10 minutes and practically
threw herself on him stayed for an hour and a half.

B: Isn't that amazing. She should know so much better, you know.
Well look we'll talk when you get back and at least make a mental
note of this thing on the 21st. You'll probably come to Calif. inbetween.

K: I hope so.

B: It was nice seeing you out there at New Year's and thank God everything's gone well.

K: It was marvelous to see you and your friendship at that time really meant a great deal to me.

B: Your friendship always has.

K: Especially then.

B: Well that's what we're put on earth for you know. This thing on the 21st is going to be very interesting because they're going to have a jury of people like Eunice Shriver and Margaret Truman and Barbara Franklin and so forth and it's going to be a sort of women's lib thing you know. And you'll see a lot of interesting people that night.

K: Right. Give my love to Roz and tell her if I'm in town I'll be there.
And of course I'll see you also separately.

B: OK and in any event give us a call if you should come to LA inbetween.
I'm in New York now but I'll be going back in March.

K: Good.

B: By the way if you get a chance look at the Academy Awards on the 27th of March she's getting the Academy Award for the Humanitarian Award this year which is fabulous because she's the first film actress whose ever received it.

K: It couldn't happen to a nicer person. B: Good luck, Henry.

AUTHORIZED
Authority
FEB 25 78
By: [Signature]
NAPAS Date: 01/15/04

TELCORN

Dr. Donald F. Hornig, Pres. of Brown U.
Mr. Kissinger

5:04, Feb. 5, 1973

H: Mr. Kissinger.

K: Yes.

H: This is Don Hornig of Brown University.

K: How are you?

H: Well, I'm just fine. I trust you're feeling pretty good these days.

K: Yeah, I'm doing fine.

H: The reason I called you was to inquire whether there was any
possibility of persuading you to come to Brown sometime during
the spring after your return from China to give what is our most
 distinguished lecture on foreign policy and international relations.
The Steven Ogdon Memorial lecture.

K: Must it be this spring.

H: Yes, it would have to be this spring sometime between now and
May 1st. And I guess what would be ruled out would be the period
of the spring recess which March 31 to April 8.

K: Could you write me a letter, I won't be able to let you know; until
I get back from my trip.

H: I'd be pleased to write you a letter.

K: It doesn't have to be a long one. Just two paragraphs, just so that
I have it before me.

H: All right. I would appreciate it if you could let us know then without
too much delay because--

K: I could let you know by March 10th at the latest. Or is that too late?

H: That would be fine.

K: That would be two weeks after my coming back, I'll be back here
on the 20th.

H: I see, no I understand how pressed you are, you know in a University
a lecture has got to be given each year.

FEBRUARY 15, 1973

Authority F. O. 12458
By: NARA Date: 6/15/73

TELCONE

Hank Trewhitt/Mr. Kissinger

5:08, February 5, 1973

K: Hello.

T: Hi.

K: How are you?
They

T: /Tell me that North Vietnames <u>nukmon(?)</u> is far better than the southern variety and I expect you to bring back a gallon.

K: Absolutely.

T: Do you know what nukmon (sp) is.

K: Yeah, it's horrible stuff.

T: It's a splendid fish sauce.

K: I know, just the smell of it drives me up the wall.

T: Listen, there are two things bothering me--in trying to anticipate one from, especially China, one is we don't start thinking in terms of formal relations yet do we?

K: No, it's just on television it's further down the road.

T: But we don't--

K: You mean with China.

T: Yes.

K: No.

T: But we might think of some rather concrete results to be announced after you are back.

K: I don't expect that, look, this is all -- you are still influences by your old confreres over there.

T: I try not to be.

K: I mean by the way of thinking. We have very satisfactory communications with the Chinese right now.

REPRODUCIBLE
 Authority Eo 2458
 By: NAP Date 01/15/04

2

*

T: And so, yeah.

K: I mean, what do you think would happen if we had an office in Peking. Who do you think would conduct the business.

T: You;would.

K: That's right.

T: Or Rogers would.

K: Not through that office.

T: A perfectly good point, of course. I suppose it would--

K: This is all off the record.

T: Oh, sure.

K: I'm not going there to achieve any announceable results.

T: That really is kind of---

K: I'm trying to get our perception of the international environment in line.

T: Good. The other thing that is; bothering me specifically is what we want to do a story out of your CBS interview. On the kinds of things the NSC is now doing, looking down the road, what kind of studies you have underway. Is that verboten territory or can we talk in general terms about the kinds of things--

K: No, that's fair enough.

T: Energy, obviously.

K: Right.

T: What else?

K: NATO. European relations. I mean you could do that as speculation.

T: Sure, absolutely.

K: European relations, middle East--

T: Roughly you have cut up all the major problems, then, for that kind of treatment.

FREQUENTLY USED
Authority E0 12458
BY: NARA Date 6/15/84

3

*

K: Southeast Asia, I mean post-Asian -0 post southeast-Asian posture for the United States.

know

T: Right. I don't/if I mention to you the other day that I wanted to do some European stuff and I have the Powell House on top. You don't mind that kind of thing as long as it's completely off the record and general kind of information, do you.

K: Not at all.

T: I have no desire to get--

K: Oh no, you're a responsible guy.

T: I have no desire to spring secrets, I just want to keep--

K: As I told Eliot when I ran in to him the other day, that as long as he sends me the ________ we're doing all right.

T: Well, not trying to get that kind of word out in New York. How do you handle these special projects when they come up -- with your own staff people or is there an inter-change kind of thing.

K: Well, partly with my own staff people and we have a --we have a massive study on SALT II, on the future of strategic arms.

T: All the way across the spectrum.

K: Yeah. I have inter-agency meetings and I have my staff work on it too. I just came from a two hour session with the Verification Panel. It's not done on a unilateral basis.

T: We are not dealing on the kinds of things that we see sudden and dramatic evidence of at any stage, they are the kind of things that we see reflected in the diplomacy, and I suppose we are already seeing evidence of them.

K: You'll see them over a period of six months.

T: Can you give me guidance any further as to whether you are going to be directing them.

K: Oh, well I'll still be in my job (laughter). I'm trying to hold the position that I'm going to do some thinking after I get through with this job. With this present phase. Oh, I'll probably be here in six months.

REDACTED
Authority: E012458
By: [Signature] NARA Date: 6/15/84

T: Yeah, I hope you stay around. I'll make you a small wager, if you really don't know and if you are not pulling my leg, I'll make you a small wager that you are here in the middle of 1974, but I don't think you're going to be able to tear yourself away from Europe.

K: Well, that's quite possible. I think it's safe to say I'll be here in six months.

T: I'm going to ask you a question that I dislike intensely but I have to do and you can stay off the record or anything you like, but I have a query here from one of the back of the books departments-- are you going to marry Nancy Maginnes?

K: I really have no plans to get married.

T: Can I say that.

K: Well, you can't quote it.

SANITIZED

T: What if I use this kind of line, I'll say - friends of Kissinger say they don't believe he has any plans to get married. Some such thing as that.

K: That is right.

SANITIZED

T: Right. He has no plans in other words, Dr. Kissinger says he has no plans to--

K: That's right.

T: Okay, I'll be talking to Hal and getting some general guidance from him on this question of the kinds of studies that are being done.

K: Okay, good.

T: Well I think that holds me then.

K: Good.

T: Thank you very much.

K: Nice to talk to you.

T: Bye.

UNCLASSIFIED
Authority E0 12458
By: NARA Date 6/15/94

*

telcon

Prof. Graubard/Mr. Kissinger

February 5, 1973 - 6:15 p.m.

K: Hello.

G: Hi, Henry.

K: How are you?

G: I'm well. How are you?

K: Okay.

G: Very good I pray.

K: I'm fine.

G: Good. Henry, can I ask you two quick questions?

K: Right.

G: First, I do have the whole of my manuscript -- that is, in galley proof. Would you like to see it at all?

K: Well, if you can leave it here, I'd like to take a glance at it.

G: Okay. Now, the thing is -- let me tell you my big problem and this is so big that I probably should come to see you about see. And the real question is whether you can see me. I have not yet written what I find a satisfactory epilogue to the whole book and I'm stuck on a very important point. Do you remember Nixon's foreign policy -- *Foreign Affairs* Article of October 67?

K: Yeah.

G: I don't know much of it but I find some similarity between what is in there and what you wrote for Rockefeller in the following ...

K: I haven't read it for years.

G: You have not?

K: No.

G: And you had nothing to do with the writing of it?

K: No. I never met him before.

*

Prof. Graubard/Mr. Kissinger

6:15 p.m., February 5, 1973

- 2 -

G: No, but did you speak to any of his staff?

K: I doubt it.

G: Really? Because it is just fantastic because it ....

K: I had nothing to do with it.

G: Right. Okay. Do you think the ideas were simply in the air or do you remember the article, Henry?

K: I never read it until after I came to work here.

G: Really? Okay. Well, I find -- I am really amazed at the similarities.

K: Well, I have talked to Ray Price years ago. But I didn't know he had worked for him.

G: Really? Do you have a sense or can you remember -- or would you think Ham Armstrong would know who wrote it for him?

K: Ray Price.

G: Ray Price did write it for him.

K: Yeah.

G: But you hadn't been talking with him at the time.

K: No.

G: You see, what I'm really left with is it would almost appear as if what you're saying in the following May or June comes out of what he has already said the previous Article.

K: Well, I had never seen it but that's entirely -- you know, I --

G: Okay. Henry, when do you actually leave?

K: On Wednesday morning.

G: On Wednesday morning. I'm just trying to think of how I could get these --

K: Well, where are you?

G: I'm in New York. If ______ should talk to you, she isn't coming to Washington until next week. But I'm really quite I must say the

REPRODUCIBLE
 Authority File No. 2458
By: BC NAPA Date: 01/15/94

*

Prof. Graubard/Mr. Kissinger

6:15 p.m., February 5, 1973

- 3 -

G: (cont'd) similarities are such that I was almost prepared to say that you had talked a good deal to some people who had taken down what you had said.

K: Well, if they were, they are people that I'm not familiar with it.

G: Well, they are literally passages where I sort of -- paragraph A is straight, Henry. Paragraph B, probably he had nothing to do with.

K: Well, all I can tell you is I hadn't read the Article when I wrote the Rockefeller stuff. And I didn't know the people who did the Articles.

G: Really? Yeah. You think Ray Price is the one who did most of it?

K: Yeah.

G: And you had met him once or twice only.

K: I had met him a few times but not right that time.

G: Really? Okay. Well, then I don't know what to do about this. You see, what I'm really --

K: Please, I unfortunately have to run.

G: Okay. Any chance of my seeing you tomorrow if I came down?

K: No, I'm just overworked.

G: Oh, I see. Then I don't know how I can get this to you before you leave.

K: Well, you can drop it at the office but there would be practically no chance of seeing me.

G: Yeah, yeah.

K: I'd love to read it on the plane.

G: Well, I'd love to get it to you.

K: Please, I'm really totally overworked.

G: Okay. Henry, bless you and take care.

K: Good. Thank you.

G: Goodbye.

*

TelCon
Rowland Evans/Mr. Kissinger

6:47, Feb. 5, 1973

K: Hello.

E: Henry.

K: Rollie.

E: How's the world's leading stateman. You have a minute now.

K: I don't really think so.

E: How about tomorrow, early.

K: Early I can't do it.

E: You can't have a quick breakfast, seriously.

K: No, no I have already made two breakfast dates, so I don't see how I can make a third.

E: Well it depends on a lot of things. You could break the other two and make one. Just have one breakfast with me.

K: Oh, I'll do; my best to--

E: What do you think, how about early before breakfast.

K: Well my breakfast is at eight.

E: You never have coffee at your house, do you.

K: No. How long do you generally want.

E: Honestly, if I could talk to you ten or fifteen minutes.

K: I've just got, I'm so piled up with things I've got to do.

E: What about late tomorrow.

K: Let me try for late tomorrow. I'll do my damndest to see you before I get away.

E: You really would--leaving ten o'clock wednesday. Do you want me to call.

K: Let's talk first thing in the morning.

NAPLES 10.25.73
Authority
BY: NAPA Date: 01/15/73

TelCon

David Frost/Mr. Kissinger

7:00, Feb. 5, 1973

K: David, how are you.

F: Marvelous, thank you, marvelous. . Congratulations.

K: Congraca Thank you.

F: When do you meet again.

K: Wednesday morning.

F: Wednesday morning, as soon as that, golly.
I was going to say I might--of course it was announced for
Feb. 9th, so that's when you get there.

K: That's when I get there.

F: Ah hah. I was going to say I was going to be in Washington on
Thursday probably, but

K: Oh, what a pity. Well I'll be back on the 19th.

F: Oh, well, lovely, we'll look forward to seeing you then. I don't suppose, this is a mad Idea I had realizing what a tremendous peace making trip this is to Hanoi, I don't suppose there would be, we've often discussed the thought of television, I don't suppose there would be any way if you had total approval of soon afterwards, of a camera and me accompanying you to Hanoi. Would there--

K: No, I don't think I can do that.

F: It's the wrong sort of trip for that isn't it.

K: That is right.

F: Yes. Cause on the other hand in terms of the peace making positive side, of course it is a tremendously positive trip in that sense, isn't it. That would be the wrong trip for it would it?

K: I probably think so.

F: Just reading about it, I suddenly had the thought that it would be
a-- you know, rather than a hard news conversation, it would
otherwise have been a tremendous time for a reflective peace
making type of conversation. How did the conversation go last
week on CBS. It seemed to be very well reported and warmly
reported.

2

*

K: Well it went all right.

F: One paper said you looked nervous. I couldn't believe that was possible.

K: I don't believe that's true.

F: Did you get the cable we sent you from the Caribbean.

K: I was very--I called your office.

F: Oh, yes, I got the message. I got the message you had called but I didn't know whether you had called before receiving that or not.

K: I was very touched by it.

F: Well we were both thrilled and particularly thrilled by the delayed in the sense that they were belated and deserve earlier but the compliments in the New York Times and so on.

K: Well, that was very nice.

F: We were very thrilled on your behalf. Well I wish you bon voyage on this trip.

K: Thank you David, will you call me as soon as you get back. As I get back.

F: Absolutely, yes. When you fly on a trip like this, do you take a break on route.

K: I may take a break for a day on the way.

F: I see, just to refresh up.

K: Well just so that I'm not going from Hanoi to Peking.

F: To readjust.

K: To take away implications.

F: I see, oh I see. How far is it between the two in flying time.

K: Oh, it's about four hours. But I'll actually have a day in between.

KANBAN BOARD
Authority F012458
By: NARA Date 01/15/09

TELCONE

Sec. Richardson/Kissinger (Secure Phone)

7:10 p.m. - 2/5/73

K: Hello Eliot.

R: Hi, Henry, how are you?

K: Good. Can I get that paper on Formosa that I asked for?

R: I will check on it right away. When are you leaving?

K: First thing Wednesday morning and I must have it tomorrow morning.

R: Can I get back to you in a few minutes. I will see where it is. We plan to get it over tonight. It hasn't come in to me yet.

K: Right. And you are going to make sure it is realistic according to what the President promised.

R: We thought it was related directly with the Vietnam buildup. At any rate we now have a breakdown that will give you more information. I asked to have it done on a basis that would allow you in effect to choose among various levels of relocation pending on what you thought you had to do.

K: Right. Good.

R: We can certainly get it to you tomorrow. Do you want it tonight?

K: Well, first thing in the morning is soon enough and I will get over those NSSMs to you first thing in the morning but I am leaving out the ones on ________.

R: OK, Henry.

K: Bye.

REDACTED
Authority Eo. 12458
By: NARA Date: 6/15/89

TELCORN

The President/Mr. Kissinger

7:59 p.m., February 5, 1973

P: Henry, what did you find on Agnew today. I've been quite busy and wasn't able to check with anybody.

K: He's following the procedure that you and Bob and I discussed -- that is to say, he'll come back via Hawaii. He's not going to CINCPAC.

P: Right. Then I'll probably go to California. He'll be there when? On the 10th or the 9th?

K: On the 10th.

P: Well, that's all right, that's Saturday and I'll see him. I'll just see him and I just won't bother with the Cabinet thing with him.

K: I don't think it's necessary. And you have the best excuse in the world having offered it to him.

P: You did offer him that in a message, didn't you?

K: Oh, yeah, that was the reason we gave him for coming back. I'll just check. [Speaking to Gen. Scowcroft: Isn't that right? We told the Vice President .. we wanted him back for the Cabinet meeting?] Right, we did do that.

P: Right.

K: So he's had that offer. Now he has to go to California.

P: Right. Then what I will plan is to stay there until you return on the 19th -- the 19th is what day?

K: Monday.

P: That will be the 19th or it could slip till the 20th, is that right?

K: Well, no, it will be late on the 19th that I will be back. I'll be back in the afternoon of the 19th.

P: There is no possibility that your Chinese thing might want to slip a bit, huh?

K: No. Unless you want me to. But if you wanted to stay an extra day, I could easily ... I'd prefer to stay an extra there with you and not go back till the 21st or the 22nd.

K. W. HARRIS
Authority E. 0. 2958
B-84 NAPA Date 0115/04

*

The President/Mr. Kissinger

7:59 p.m., February 5, 1973

- 2 -

P: Yeah, I was thinking of that but I was thinking too of your getting back a day late. You've told the Chinese that you have to be back on the 19th, right?

K: Right. But I was going to -- The Japanese have made an urgent request for me to stop off and I was going to do that.

P: Oh.

K: But that would just take a couple of hours. That would still get me ... It would perfectly logical, Mr. President, I would come in about 7 o'clock in the evening in San Clemente.

P: Right.

K: So that I would be reporting to you -- I mean, formally we can put out I report to you that evening. The morning of the 20th.

P: Um-humm.

K: So there would be no need to leave -- It's entirely up to you, of course.

P: Well, no problem.

K: On the 21st or 22nd.

P: Yes.

K: For selfish reasons, I'd welcome to get a little rest out there.

P: Right, right, right. Well, then your plan would be to get -- to be in by the 19th at 7 o'clock.

K: Give or take an hour.

P: That's Monday, fine.

K: That's Monday evening.

P: Right. You'd get in Monday evening. Okay, that sounds fine. And Agnew is doing all right on the rest of this.

K: Agnew actually has done well.

P: Good.

Authority E012458
By: NARA Date: 01/05/05

*

The President/Mr. Kissinger

7:59 p.m., February 5, 1973

- 3 -

K: He's been quiet -- he hasn't got much publicity -- I mean, he hasn't sought much publicity.

P: Fine, fine. What else has happened today on all fronts? Anything new in the ceasefire and everything going well, huh?

K: Everything has gone quite well. The North Vietnamese have now agreed to Paris on the 26th and we're ready to make that announcement tomorrow.

P: Uh-huh/

K: Do you have any preference whether we should make it or State should make it?

P: Well, what do you suggest. I mean, it's whatever is best for us.

K: Well, it's always an advantage to show White House control.

P: Say we announce it -- let Ziegler announce it.

K: Okay, I'll have Ziegler announce it.

P: I think it's best, Henry.

K: I think so.

P: Cause it's not just a -- Something we've gone all the way through and we just ... That's right.

K: And we just announce the next step. And we can do it in a fairly low key way but it just shows that the ball keeps moving.

P: Right.

K: Otherwise, Cambodia is still quiet. The Laotians are a little bit jumpy, which always happens as settlement approaches. I may -- it may be necessary on the way in to Hanoi, I could stop there on Friday night rather than spend two nights in Bangkok. It's on the way. Godley urges it strongly. I want to check what Sullivan thinks of it.

P: Are you going to take him with you? Oh, yeah, you are.

K: Yeah.

P: Let me say, I lean to it. I lean to it frankly. I lean to it. You tell Sullivan I lean to it and he'll lean to it. The main point is that anything that will shore up our allies. Basically, you've got to realize the other

UNIVERSITY
Authority Eo.12458
By: ACF NAPA Date:01/15/04

*

The President/Mr. Kissinger

7:59 p.m., February 5, 1973

- 4 -

P: (cont'd) side is weak here now and if we can shore our guys up, they
may last a hell of a lot longer than anybody thinks.

K: And it's a reasonable thing to do because we're on the way -- In Laos,
there's still a war going and in Vietnam, there isn't. And we just had
the Vice President in Vietnam. The only reason we didn't schedule it to
begin with was so that Thieu's feelings wouldn't get too hurt but then you're
going to see Thieu and we're not going to see Souvanna.

P: That's right. Now, when you stop there, they still won't still have had
a ceasefire.

K: Well, actually right now the major obstacle to a ceasefire strangely enough
is our guys.

P: Well, why don't you tell them that you'll stop there if they have a ceasefire?

K: Well, I don't think they can move that fast but I think I can certainly
beat them towards a ceasefire.

P: That's my point. Use the fact that you're stopping for leverage.

K: Well, I think we can get into a ceasefire if I stop there within a couple
of days anyway.

P: That would be a good thing, you see.

K: That's right. And I think it's probably a useful thing to do and then ....

P: I would strongly urge it.

K: Well, I'll send them a message saying I'm willing to come.

P: Good.

K: Now on Hussein I've sent a book over to you. I think the major thing
now is to just listen to them and then wait to see what we get from the
Egyptians. And then wait to see what we get from Golda Meir before
you make any final commitments.

P: Right.

K: The peace settlement we have put in the briefing paper. Some things you
can offer them in the economic field, which will please them.

P: Uh-huh. Well, okay, that's about all we can say to them I guess.

*

The President/Mr. Kissinger

7:59 p.m., February 5, 1973

- 5 -

K: Well, the key is Egypt at this point. He doesn't have a very concrete proposal and he can't make a separate settlement anyway.

P: Right.

K: But he's by far the most reasonable of the Arabs.

P: Oh, yes, I know. Just hope he survives.

K: Exactly, exactly. Now the Egyptians have said that in order to come over here, they may want an official invitation and then off from that to see me privately. That, of course, will get State into the act in the worse possible way but if worse comes to worse, we can agree to it and have a base talk at State and then have the guy disappear out of New York.

P: Yeah. I think we could do that.

K: We'll try to dissuade them but they are so...

P: If they want it official, let it be that. I mean, let State babble around about it but —

K: That's right.

P: You mean, who would talk to — the same man would talk to the people at State?

K: That's right.

P: And then, how would he get to see you then?

K: Well, what he would do is to say he would want two days in New York quietly on personal business and just go up to New York and then we'd bring him back down here.

P: Where would you see him? In New York then?

K: I could either see him in New York or bring him back to Camp David.

P: Well, if he goes to State, I'd see him in New York.

K: Right.

P: If he's going to go to State openly, I'd go up to New York.

The President/Mr. Kissinger

7:59 p.m., February 5, 1973

- 6 -

K: Right.

P: Don't you think so? ... you pull him out of State to Camp David, that will just send everybody right up the wall.

K: Well, I think it's the fact that my seeing him is going to drive people up the wall.

P: But if you're in New York ... Well, I know ... I see your point, yeah.

K: It may be hard to pull off Camp David now because that's been an official invitation -- I mean, that they already know. But we could discuss it with the people who are arranging their meetings.

P: Yeah, yeah. You mean, you think that you've got a problem in seeing him at all at Camp David because of the State thing, huh?

K: No, I have a problem -- So far it hasn't surfaced in the State yet. I won't have trouble seeing him at Camp David. I don't think State --

P: I don't think we ought to have -- Basically, the official thing really concerns me. Well, if you see him secretly at Camp David, that's going to surface just as sure as hell.

K: Oh, no, that's going -- In either case, it's going surface. In either case, it has to be announced. The only point is one spins off the official visit and has the advantage that it keeps some of the heat on State for having him here. The other at least keeps State out of it until we know what we're doing. There's no chance at keeping it secret when you're dealing with Egyptians.

P: I'm inclined to letting him go over and see State under those circumstances and just try to control it as well as we can, and then see him. But under those circumstances, you should see him in New York and not at Camp David though. I kinda like that a little better. But they know that you've invited them to Camp David.

K: Yeah, that's the problem, Mr. President. It may be tough to do now.

P: Well, it's not easy is it?

K: Well, I don't think State or anyone else cares whether I see him in Camp David or some other place.

*

TelCon

Amb. Sullivan/Mr. Kissinger

9:00 pm, February 5, 1973

K: Hello.

S: Yes, Henry.

K: Bill, I had a bleeding cable from Godley.

S: Now what?

K: Well, Laos feels deserted and if I overfly them it's a disaster, couldn't I stop there Friday night. The President thinks it might not be a bad idea, do you have any objections.

S: No, I think it would be a good idea as far as the Lao are concerned. What happens as far as South Vietnam's Mr. Thieu, and so forth.

K: Well, you could say they don't have a ceasefire yet.

S: Yes, I see your point. I think it can be -- probably if you are going to do it you should send some sort of message to Saigon to explain in advance why you are doing it.

K: Right.

S: I think it would be very helpful if you can manage to--

K: Okay, then I'll tell them we'll proceed.

S: Yeah. Have you ever been to--yes you've been there.

K: No, I haven't.

S: Oh, well, you've got a delightful thrill coming (laughter), not bad as a matter of fact.

K: What do you mean, not bad.

S: I think to go to Laos, I didn't realize you haven't been there before, that's very good. Yes, I think that's a good idea because they seem to be--Souvanna personally doesn't seem to be bleeding, but all his subordinates do and I think this is partly because he just hasn't bothered to keep them informed. He understands the situation but--

K: Look I may go to Japan after, that's another bleed from Ingersoll,

Authority Eo. 12958

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*

2

after China, and I understand that coincides with your trip there.

S: Yes, I'm just picking up a plane there. I'm coming out of Seoul on the afternoon of the 19th.

K: Yeah, I'm leaving on the afternoon of the 19th, if you want a ride back, but I may go to San Clemente, so you may be better off taking a plane back to Washington.

S: Well, we'll talk it over, as you wish, I could debrief to you on the plane on the way back and then get a plane from Los Angeles on the back to here.

K: Okay, fine.

S: I'm loose. I'll do it either way. I've got--

K: Okay, good. Now even so you should tell Hogan he's less than-- you should tell him anyway.

S': All right. You mean you're going to meet with Japanese government officials.

K: Yeah, I'll meet Tanaka and Ohira.

S: Okay, well I'll talk to that Irishman Hogan and you can talk to that Irishman Ohira.

K: Yeah, but since I will tell them nothing, I must tell them at least a little more than you.

S: I can do that.

K: And I couldn't stand it if you told them more than I had. I can't have my honesty impuned.

S: Honesty we can't impune, no. I'll work on negative thoughts. We can talk about that on the--

K: Okay, then I'll be delighted to give you a ride back.

S: Yeah. All right, then I'll work it out with Brent so that our times coincide.

K: Good.

S: Okay, Henry. Bye.

K: Bye.

AUTHORIZED
Authority Eo. 12458
BY: NAPA Date 01/15/94