TELCORN

Joe Sisco/Mr. Kissinger

9:38 a.m., September 19, 1973

S: Henry, on this question of military assistance for Pakistan, I assume that at the 10:00 o'clock meeting, just judging from what the Pak officials said to me in the course of yesterday, that this will come up in a very specific sort of way. Now the only thought that I have and I'm not sure this is feasible but I just wanted to drop this into the hat, if the President is obviously looking for ways and means consistent with the policy to not entirely stiff arm him, my people tell me we do have about a half a dozen helicopters that we think are still there that are being utilized for this disaster relief. Now as the Pentagon officials have talked to the Paks when the Paks have raised the question -- they raised it saying could we hold on to these helicopters after this operation is over -- and the Pentagon consistent with policy of course has been generally discouraging and Schlesinger will be seeing Bhutto at 2:30 this afternoon. Now what I've asked my people to look at and I don't know whether it's feasible, we have to see what the Pentagon would say on it, it might be possible, Henry, if the President were looking for a way to do something to find some way to leave those helicopters in the post-disaster period and leave this basically in the first instance in the context of a continuing utility and use in the humanitarian framework. Now, you know, that's bending it a little bit, as you well know, but that is the only thing I could come up with really at the moment.

K: Yeah. Well, we have no intention of making any specific commitment to him now.

S: But I wanted you to be aware that if you say look at something, then we can keep it open and we can look at it.

K: Okay. After this toast yesterday, he probably will get an armored division.

S: I would have thought so.

K: Okay, Joe. I must run, I've been called to the President.

S: Okay. Thank you.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E012658
By JG MAR 19 69

TELCON

Senator Javits/Mr. Kissinger

11:27 a.m., September 19, 1973

K: Jack, I just wanted to call you to thank you for the human and decent way you handled everything at the Committee.

J: I'm sure you were sitting right there when the President called me.

K: No, no.

J: You weren't?

K: No. The President asked me who had been particularly helpful on the Committee and I gave your name. But when he asked me, I didn't know he was going to call you. I learned later in the evening when I got his telephone list that he had called you.

J: Yeah, that's very nice. Very amusing too because I reminded him that 14 years ago or more -- it must be 17 now -- he and President Eisenhower called me out of the steam room at the City Athletic Club to thank me for something I had done in supporting Eisenhower in the Middle East and last night they got me out of the steam room too. (laughs) That's what I find (laughs) --

K: That is amazing.

J: Exactly the same circumstances.

K: That is amusing.

J: Anyhow it was fine. They have done a report on you and I've just been trying to whip it into some kind of shape. We had this little bit of flak yesterday about what to do on following through on this question and you saw how we solved it.

K: Yeah.

J: Put our concern to you. I joined with Muskie just to get the thing done and buttoned up and out of the way. So I'm rather hopeful that we'll lock this thing up tomorrow or Friday. Now the President said that he wants to swear you in in the East Room, did you know that?

K: Yes, I learned that this morning.

J: He wants to make a big public occasion of it. He said he thought he would do it on Friday but I gathered, reading between the lines, that if he couldn't do it Friday, he would do it Saturday.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EO 12598
BY order of the
President

Senator Javits/Mr. Kissinger

2

K: I knew about a plan to do it Friday if the Senate acted by then.

J: With the report in today -- we've got until Noon today to make our changes -- the leadership is really going to try to get it on tomorrow.

K: Oh, that would be good.

J: The only people that I know of -- I don't know of more than 2 or 3 Senators at the most who will wish to vote no or otherwise speak to it.

K: Right.

J: I think hopefully it ought to be done tomorrow. Let us hope that we will be able to get it all done on Friday and you go on to the UN.

K: Good.

J: Henry, I have come back from Europe with a report of my Committee of Nine.

K: I thought it was a very constructive report.

J: Oh, you've seen it?

K: Well, I've seen a summary of it.

J: I see. Your office prepared one.

K: Yes.

J: Oh, very good. I think it has great possibilities. We are going to release it to the press and the Members of the North Atlantic Assembly which are about 250 of the parliamentarians of the NATO Countries. We'll send it to each of them on Tuesday, October 2nd and it will then be the subject of debate beginning on the 21st of October to the 26th at Ankara. I would be very grateful for any leadership guidance or counselling as to how to handle it from this point on.

K: As soon as I get my head above water, let me study this and I would like to work very closely with you and I also intend to give you as much support as I possibly can.

J: Good. Now I thought I would do this, I thought if you were willing -- I can't do anything until you are -- I would give a few of the leaders a ring, like Willie Brandt, whom I know very well, and suggest to Willie that he might make some comment directly or through [Seal?].

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: EC 12458
BY: SARAH M. DE 6/16/94

Senator Javits/Mr. Kissinger

3

K: I think that would be excellent.

J: You see what I mean?

K: Yeah.

J: And a few other friendly guys around the world.

K: I think you should do that.

J: You see, frankly, I wouldn't mind if the French, either through Pompidou or the Foreign Minister, made even an adverse comment because I think it livens the thing up.

K: Yeah, but they won't dare defuse it.

J: I don't think so but nonetheless it was Pompidou who gave me the guy who is on the Committee. He did it himself.

K: You know I talked to him about it.

J: I know you did, that's what I say what I do. And this fellow turned out to join in the report, though he'll have some reservations he did join the rest of us.

K: Well, I look forward -- No, you stick to that and I would support it.

J: Well, why don't you look it over. You may find that this is a very good handle for you in everything you want to do.

K: Let me read the whole text of it.

J: Now the important thing I would like to leave with you though is that many of the things that are in the report were decided on very close votes with the following line-up: France, Norway, Netherlands, Italy versus the U.K., Canada and the U.S. where it was adverse. Where it was for my point of view, it was generally solely with the exclusion of either Italy and France or Italy and Norway and generally decided by the votes of the others versus those two. Germany, Halstein (sp?) -- my man is over there now -- because Halstein is having serious trouble with his eyes -- and going over the whole thing with Halstein today and I'll be able to reflect the German's position to you but the Social Democrat man who is there for Germany, a man named Dr. Palmer (?) --

K: He's good!

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 7258

By Top 1/6/84 10:04

Senator Javits/Mr. Kissinger

4

J: Good, yeah. He substantially is with the whole report.

K: Well, then you won't have any trouble with Halstein.

J: Well, Halstein of course is the Christian Democrat.

K: I know but they are more pro-Atlantic than the Socialists.

J: I see. Well, in any case, that's it and I think you will find that many of the decisions have a very definite European orientation. I think you'll find this quite an interesting exercise as a warm-up for your own.

K: Well, I will read it with the greatest care. And as I said -- If the report reflects what the summary said, which I'm sure it does, I will give it really full support.

J: Good. All right. Don't hesitate to let me know and I'll come over and go over with you controverted points to tell you just how the debate went and how Europe and ourselves and Canada divide on given issues.

K: Good.

J: By the way, I might tell you that Canada, on the whole I would say, is more with Europe than with us.

K: Well, we'll have to talk about that European Organization when I next see you.

J: Right. Fine, Henry.

K: Good, Jack, and many thanks again.

J: I'm delighted.

K: I look forward to working closely with you.

J: I'm very pleased.

K: Bye.

wgh

DECLARED D

Authority E012658

BY JONATHAN R. FOLEY 10/9/94

TELCOM

Ambassador Dobrynin/Mr. Kissinger

1:00 p.m., September 19, 1973

K: Hello.

D: Hello, Henry.

K: Anatol, how are you?

D: Only really two things. First, about luncheon or dinner in Washington. Maybe you would like to have as minimum as possible so in Washington he intends to have only me, nobody else.

K: Only you?

D: Only me. And an interpreter who will take notes.

K: Right.

D: And he propose not a dinner but you make a correct guess, he prefers to have a lunch because he wants to leave that very day back to New York. So he said we might as well have 1:15 lunch. All right?

K: All right. I will bring somebody to take notes.

D: Yes. He really prefers this way. He feels that after he talks with the President, he really wants to have a very frank discussion off-the-record with you.

K: Good.

D: And as for dinner, he is prepared to repeat the same performance but he doesn't know how you feel about our representatives, about United Nations, because he is perfectly all right not to take our representatives but he understands that if you coming here to your own United Nations organization so you maybe would like to have them both so he really leaves it entirely up to you.

K: Well, if we have them both, we can't have any real conversation. At least on our side.

D: If you think that's all right because he really prefers even to do it the same way here but he left open because he doesn't know how you feel about his representatives here so he rather hesitates. But in Washington he has made it very clear, if you agree, that he intends to do this way, nobody else because he really wants to have a talk with you -- to have a working lunch -- and the less people, the better. So how about New York how do you feel?

DECLASSIFIED

E012058
By: N.W. Date: 06/30/73

Amb. Dobrynin/Mr. Kissinger

2

K: I'll give you an answer first thing in the morning. I will reduce it to the minimum.

D: Yes, because in this case we will match how many you will do, we will do.

K: Right. Since it is in my place, I will sneak in an extra person and make the ______ by majority vote.

D: (laughs) I know you will do it one way or another. But as for our Embassy, it is agreed that it will be two and two, yes?

K: Right.

D: So this I could mention to him?

K: You can mention that to him. I will bring very few to mine too.

D: But let me know tomorrow then, all right?

K: Yeah. I will almost certainly exclude Scali.

D: In this case, ours will be excluded too.

K: I mean, I can practically guarantee that.

D: Yes, I understand. We could bring ______ or somebody else but Gromyko of course would like to have as many as you have in that way really.

K: I will let you know first thing tomorrow. Can we make the dinner at 8:30 rather than 8:00?

D: Fine. Okay, we could make it. No problem, I could give you answer. And then he would like to have an informal dinner quiet and discuss many things.

K: All right.

D: So you will give me names tomorrow, how many you will have and who will be there really. Then Gromyko will decide, all right?

K: Yeah. Can we exclude the Ambassador from the Soviet Union too?

D: Well, this is another story.

3

K: I saw you on television this morning. You are getting to be quite a fellow.

D: Was I?

K: Yeah.

D: I didn't know. I sleep in the morning quietly --

K: Speaking about the denial of human rights in the Soviet Union.

D: Oh, it was yesterday on the signing of this wonderful building of yours. You will have such a building, all our businessmen will prefer to have the same building as yours in Moscow. Have you seen the design?

K: Yeah, I saw it. It looks fantastic.

D: It looks like our Foreign Minister will prefer to take it maybe afterwards. When you build it. No, I am joking. And then the second point, Gromyko would like to mention, he would like to be present for your speech. Definitely he is interested but he [won't be there] till next day.

K: I won't have much of an opportunity to prepare a good speech, I'll tell you that right now. I am even considering delivering it in German in honor of the two new members.

D: I understand.

K: I will do my best to be present at his. What time is his?

[Phone connection is broken -- conversation cut off]

1:05 p.m. - Conversation Continued

D: Hello, Henry, we were interrupted.

K: That's right.

D: Tomorrow, what time should I call you -- 9:00, 10:00 ?

K: Call me around 9:00.

D: And for this everything is already arranged.

K: Okay. What time is your Foreign Minister speaking on Tuesday?

DECLASSIFIED
Authority EO120584
By: N.W. Pa. 5-20-94

DECLASSIFIED
Authority: E012058
By: MWB, P.O. Box 304

4

D: Tuesday, around 12:00.

K: Oh, that's good. That's a good time. Nothing much can happen after that.
it

D: No, no, it definitely will be before 1 o'clock because lunch time in United Nations is sacred time.

K: No, no, I will come.

D: Okay, Henry.

K: And I'll walk out dramatically or pound the desk or attract attention somehow.

D: You should be careful because now under the ____ we are very close, closer much more than the other Delegations to the ____.

K: Oh, are you?

D: Yes, definitely, so we will watch you very closely. You will be within our reach. (laughs) Not to ____ delegation which is far, far to the right.

K: (laughs) Well, somebody has to explain procedure to me too. Okay.

D: Okay, Henry, thanks a lot.

K: Bye.

wgh

TELCONE

1:00 p.m., September 19, 1973

K: Hello.

D: Hello, Henry.

K: Anatol, how are you?

K: Only you?

K: Right.

K: Good.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E.O. 1265.8

BY: J.G. NAR. P.M. 6/16/73

Amb. Dobrynin/Mr. Kissinger

2

K: Right.

K: All right.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E.O. 12458
By: J.P. NAR. Page 6/16/64