DECLASSIFIED
Authority E012958
By C9 NARA Date 6-8-73

TelCon

Amb. Volpe, Mr. Kissinger

11:57 am, July 13, 1973

K: Hello, Mr. Ambassador.

V: Henry.

K: How are you.

V: Pretty good. Had the flu bug most of the week but I got out of bed this morning to carry out our mission--

K: I got your cable and I appreciate it very much. Now, I wondered whether you could call on him again. And tell him we could receive him here on September 11th.

V: All right.

K: And if so, then we could announce it fairly soon.

V: All right. Well, I can see where a general announcement will have to be made.

K: That's right.

V: And

K: And then we should announce the two things together.

V: That is correct. It would be much more desirable. I can go right back at him and we'll try to reach him, let me call him and see if we can't build up that. Is it two days Henry, or

K: Yeah, it's the same thing. 11th and 12th.

V: But beginning on September 11th.

K: Exactly.

V: I'll get right back to him and get back to you, and I hope in the meanwhile that you'll convey to the President our prayers and everything else for his speedy recovery.

K: You can count on that. And come in and see me when you are back, I'd like to talk to you about your problems.

V: My problems!

2

K: You know, in your country.

V: Oh, yes.

K: The Italian problems, no you don't have any personal problems.

V: (Laughter)

K: Don't come back especially for it, I would just like to have a run down on the Italian situation, when you are back here.

V: Yeah. Well I have a trace of either accepting or objection and I was about to reject the invitation I've had to come back for four or five Columbus day things, mostly the NY one and the Washington one which I've attended the NY one for the last 15 or 20 years.

K: I don't see how they can have a Columbus Day without you.

V: Oh, now, Henry, you're too kind.

K: So, why don't you come back for that.

V: If you think it would be desirable to review this thing, that would give me the next couple of months unless you want to do it sooner than that.

K: No, that would be a good time to come back. It would be then after the holidays in Italy and you could look at it with some perspective.

V: Yeah. Well let me think about it, we might like to go home for Christmas and New Years, but

K: Well you can do both.

V: Well, the orders from the boss is for any time you want. Maybe it will be well to do that because there are some things happening and during that period I will have had an opportunity to assess. Very briefly the fact is that this came, although not particularly desired as far as some of our concerns are concerned. My relations will be even stronger than they were before, because of the fact that I know this man even better than I knew the other one. I can get him on the telephone at any moment and I have done that twice already. The thing that remains to be seen is what happens because of the inclusion of the other group that I don't have to name.

K: Right.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E0 12958
By NARA Date 6-8-04

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EO 12958

By CD NARA Date 6-8-64

V: All right. Do you want me to call or wire as soon as I get the information.

K: Why don't you call us.

V: Very good.

K: Thank you John, otherwise wire.

V: It would be better to get it done tonight. You see any reason why I couldn't, instead of--as long as I've established this relationship to call him on the phone and just without referring to anything, would Sept 11 be convenient.

K: Well, I think they are a little prickly, so I think a personal call would be better.

V: Right. I'll work it out that way, and I'll get back to you.

K: Thank you.

V: Okay. You'll be there until about 7:00.

K: Oh, yeah.

V: Okay, bye.

K: Bye.

["TELCOM", "President/Kissinger", "12:39 p.m. - 7/13/73", "K: Hello, Mr. President.", "P: Hi Henry, how are you?", "K: What is more important is how you are feeling.", "P: Well I had a rough night last night but today due to very heavy sedation and other things, I am feeling much better.", "K: I think it is essential that you get", "P: I will have to stay here at least 5 days, maybe 6; if complications set in it could be worse.", "K: I frankly think that as long as you are there it should be used to give you the greatest amount of rest and total recovery because the relapses are worse.", "P: Al told me your Georgetown crowd clapped when you told them the news last night.", "K: No, they were really quite concerned. And I don't know whether you had a chance to see the news. They have been hacking away at the President for months and now anyone who has talked to me has expressed deep concern in the last days.", "P: Well, that would be a normal reaction.", "K: And the decent people in this country need something. I know you hate to be laid up and to admit you are ill, but this was not a bad time for it.", "P: Anything new in the international front today?", "K: Bhutto has cancelled is visit with you. We gave him another date which we worked out with Al for September 11. Otherwise things are fairly quiet. We have one Defense Department problem. We sent General Weyant to Vietnam to build up their morale after the Cambodian bombings stop and to give them a sense of supplies coming because the biggest problem is the morale might collapse. Some of the softies in Defense say he is there to. . . . . . . . . . . . . .

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E012958
By C0 NARA Date 6-8-94

P: That makes sense. I think what we should do is to give the South Vietnamese a sense that we are not throwing in the...

K: That's right and that we are there to put in supplies. All they want is to bug out and blame the Congress.

P: I would love to do that politically but the country will not allow us that luxury. We have to do what is right.

K: Mr. President, you had that option for four years. Sihanouk is popping off again and you can say he is getting ready to talk.

P: He is in Peking now?

K: He is going off to ______ on a trip for a couple of weeks, but we don't need him in Peking until I get there.

P: Yeh.

K: We have to hear from the Chinese yet. They told us we would get an answer next week.

P: On what?

K: The time of my trip and they haven't answered yet, Mr. President, your conversation with Huang Chen.

P: Why are they delaying?

K: Huang Chen went back. They sent a message saying they would reply after he returns and he just got back today so I expect an answer next Monday or Tuesday.

P: I trust your trip is not in jeopardy.

K: But in this Cambodian thing if they won't cooperate at all we may want to consider pushing it to a date after the deadline so it doesn't look like I failed.

P: Right. OK, we will do that Henry.

K: Right, Mr. President.

P: Take care.

TelCon
Adm. Moorer/Mr. Kissinger

12:52 pm, July 13, 1973

K: Tom?

M: Yes.

K: Tom, I just talked to the South Vietnamese Ambassador about other things, and he tells me that they thing that Weyand it out there to access the impact of a bombing halt in Cambadio on South Vietnam.

M: That's fediculous.

K: Now, I want to repeat Weyand it out there on our orders to get the maximum of supplies into South Vietnam, and I just talked to the President, he's been ordered to stay out there until this is clear in the minds of the South Vietnamese. If that means six more weeks, he's going to stay out there six more weeks.

M: Henry, I don't know where this guy got this impression, because that's what he's been zeroing in on and he's been reassuring them that we are not going to stop our--

K: Not stop, we'll augment. It's a psychological problem out there. Now I want him out there until Graham Martin gets out there anyway.

M: All right.

K: Secondly, we are really outraged at what happened with the B-52's. That's a deliberate leak, that just isn't a leak.

M: I think you're right.

K: It didn't just ooze out. And I tell you we are not going to take this stuff much longer. We are just going to have some heads roll.

M: Well, I'm all for having them roll if you can find the heads.

K: No, we'll find somebody and let others then worry about the heads. After all there must be some chain of command around. How did this come, from the Air Force?

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E0 12958
By CD NARA Date 6-8-74

2

M: Well it could have come from the Air Force, or it could have come from some of the civilians in OSE. There are 900 people who know about this.

K: There is so much detail that it couldn't just get oozed out.

M: Well, somebody has gotten ahold of the -- either have seen a paper on it or have heard people talk about it or have seen the message. A lot of people got involved in it of course.

K: Right.

M: And I agree with you, somebody voluntarily sent this information to Finney or Hoffman.

K: That's right.

M: And why in Christ's name he did it I don't know, but I think these people have managed now because there's been such a deterioration of--I was just talking about this about five minutes ago of any kind loyalty to the government or integrity of security that they think that whatever they get, they print. The hell with the consequences.

K: That's right. You know, we know you didn't do it. There's no incentive you would have or--

M: I don't think anybody down here did it. I think its probably the fact these people putting out money for any kind of tidbit of news that they can tie in an article. I don't think the people had any motive there, those that leaked it, other than the fact that they have some kind of contact with these characters that always put out these messages, and the hell with the consequences. I think that's what happened. But it is true this movement involves 900 people, and so it's pretty difficult thing to put your finger on it, because we've had--there hasn't been any paper put out that wasn't classified top secret about it. Of course the Secretary of Defense, you know he talked to you last Monday, he wanted to go full blast with the 99s and he said you were going to think about it. And then

K: Well, we're not going to let you move anymore now for several months.

M: That's all right Henry.

K: They'll just have to run amuck, they can leak, they can do what they want but we are not going to yield now.

M: That's all right, that's all right with me.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority EO 12958
By NARA Date 6-8-04

DECLASSIFIED
Authority Eo 12958
By C- NARA Date 6-8-64

M: But there's a very difficult thing to get this thing controlled. Now so far as public affairs are concerned, in any kind of releases or press conferences and everything, of course you know the beginning of the day with McNamara, the Joint Chiefs of Staff have been intentionally insulated from that.

K: I didn't know that.

M: I don't get involved in public affairs.

K: Oh, you don't know about the formal policy.

M: Well, the policy is that the Secy of Defense, Mel Laird, every morning has his nine o'clock appointment with the press people and they decide what they are going to release and what not going to release, but neither do I or any part of the Joint Chiefs of Staff have a thing to do with that.

K: Oh, really.

M: That's right. And neither does the unified commanders have any --they are told what they can release and what they can't release.

K: That's good to know.

M: It all comes right directly from the Secretary of Defense.

K: You get in touch with Weyand and make clear what we want in case it isn't clear.

M: I think it is clear because I just talked to him, but

K: Because we don't care as long as the other side is violating it if it isn't exactly one to one.

M: He reported to me verbally now that he's got the list of--they are in damn good shape MO wise, they need a little help to build their POL stocks up which is being taken care of, but he's been going to each military region and he will have a full report on it.

K: Good, well let's keep him out there until Martin has a chance to review it with him. He should be there Sunday or Monday.

M: All right.

K: Good, thank you.

M: I'll talk to him, in fact I'm going to talk to him about this--he's going back tonight you know to Phnom Penh.

K: Good.

M: And I will talk to him again Henry but I think he is--

K: Good, well maybe it's just mis-communication between the South Vietnamese government and their ambassador. He wasn't in here to complain about it, he was in here to--about other things.

M: Yeah, but he's probably telling you that because that's what he's interested in, and they are pretty well satisfied with the supplies.

K: Right, okay.

M: Right.

K: Good, thank you.

M: Yeah.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority EO 12958
By NARA Date 6-8-64

*

TelCon
Lloyd Shearer/Mr. Kissinger
2!43 pm, July 13, 1973

K: Hello.

S: Hi, Henry, how are you.

K: Okay, Lloyd.

S: Just two questions if I may ask them. When do you imagine you'll be in China.
CHINA

K: We really haven't set a date, I would say between the 5th and 20th of August sometime.

S: Okay, we'd like to set up a cover of you in China. And the other question is, did you ever tell Kay Graham that Haldeman was clean and clear.

K: Not that I can remember, but it was my conviction until the middle of April that he didn't know a damn thing about it.

S: (laughs) Really!!

K: Yeah.

S: All right.

K: I do not remember, why don't you ask her.

S: I have.

K: What does she say.

S: Yes.

K: Well, it was my conviction that he didn't know anything about it.

S: Okay.

K: But if she says I did, it must be

S: Listen, how the hell can, you know, can you remember everything you said to everybody? Of course not. It was more than charitable and kind of you.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E6 12958
By NARA Date 6-8-04

2

*

K: You know, we are talking about Watergate. I had no illusions about his general cast of mind.

S: Right.

K: But did she say I said it at the time, I just don't remember it.

S: No, no big thing, no, no.

K: Well until about April 15th or so I thought that he didn't know a damn thing about it.

S: No big thing. We'll get you in a different scandal.

K: Oh, I have no question. What we need here is a sex scandal.

S: Well you know something, that's en route.

K: You're kidding.

S: I'm telling you. There's one guy down there, you know--anyway.

K: Are you pulling my leg.

S: No I'm not pulling your leg.

K: Can I ask you something as long as you called me.

S: Sure, why not.

K: That matter which you mentioned to me when we were sitting on the porch, do you believe it or do you know this?

S: Half and half. I know we got it in the book. So you can see they are as pretty much convinced as you were.

K: Yeah, I don't know, I haven't seen you. I haven't seen that you've actually said it.

S: Well I may, you know, let's see what we've got. I mean this Sunday we got a page--I must say that your kids are the greatest kids I have ever met.

K: They are marvelous.

S: If I ever had a Central Intelligence Agency, huh.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority CO 12958
By NARA Date 6-8-84

3

*

K: They are marvelous.

S: You know when I had seen those kids last?

K: A year ago.

S: A few weeks ago.

K: Of course, you saw them out in Belmont.

S: They didn't give the slightest hint of any recognition.

K: SANITIZED that's right.

S: I just watched them very carefully, I mean Elizabeth, those are the two greatest agents we've ever had.

K: That's pretty good.

S: Fantastic. Anyway I'm sorry that you didn't give us a call and bring them up.

K: Oh, God damn it, I just

S: For Sunday, we had a good thing planned, including Peggy Parker, but we figured you were over at the Ziffrens and I guess--

K: No, I wasn't up at all. I wasn't at the Ziffrens.

S: Anyway we figured you were somewhere.

K: No, I spent Sunday at home. Oh, God damn it, my apologies to your wife.

S: Well, we sent you a note. Did you get it.

K: No.

S: But anyway we had a good time, we planned a few games. Next time around, huh?

K: Good.

S: Okay. You think about the 15th or the 20th.

K: Between the 5th and the 20th, within that time frame.

S: Okay, cause we'd like to set up--of you there.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority EC 12958
By KARA Date 6.8.01

4

K: We may get a date next week, and in that case I'll let you know.

S: Will you let me know.

K: Yes.

S: So I can be there simultaneously. How are things, how's the President coming. It's not too serious is it?

K: No, it's a nuisance, but it's not dangerous.

S: Right. I spoke to Al about that Ombudsman idea.

K: Yes, what does he thing?

S: Well, he thought it was quite good. And I speak for Mel Laird because I think the quotient is down to zero. Did you read Hugh Sidey in the TIMES.

K: Yeah.

S: Well, it's a gimmick. If you put this guy up to say anything, they just tune him out. That may be fair or unfair, I don't know, but that's the fact. What is the point of talking to an echo chamber.

K: Yeah, I think it's unfair for Ron, but as you say

S: It's unfair. I couldn't agree with you, but you know--

K: Yeah.

S: That's it, huh.

K: Yeah.

S: I think they are unwise not to improve that situation.

K: Yeah.

S: Anyway, take care of yourself. You're a good man.

K: And you are a good and decent friend, I want you to know that. I look forward to seeing you soon. Best to your wife. Bye.

S: You bet.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority
By 60 KARA Date 6-8-64

TelCon

Foreign Minister Rabasa/Mr. Kissinger

4:20 pm, July 13, 1973

K: Hello.

R: Henry, I'm sorry to bother you again.

K: You couldn't bother me.

R: But I heard the news on something I just can't believe. That the House of Representatives has already accepted or will accept the disbursement to build a wall, of course on your side of the border the whole border between Mexico and the United States.

K: That's inconceivable. I've never heard that.

R: The called me from my office in Mexico that a tremendous scandal is starting in Mexico and--

K: Hold on a second, let me check with somebody here. Can you hold on?

R: Yes, of course.

K: I'm told that's ridiculous.

R: It's ridiculous.

K: Even if it should pass in the House it will never pass the Congress.

R: You know it will be a wall of infamy-

K: Emilio, there are beautiful speeches you can give on that subject afterwards, but we are not building any walls between North and South American

R: Exactly. It would not only separate Mexico but that would be separating the United States from Latin America.

K: No, no, no, that won't happen. I don't know what the hell happened. Maybe some crazy committee passed something, but I can't

R: Representatives, one from California - I have the names here.

K: Emilio I would not worry about it. Now don't make a statement attacking it because--

2

R: Of course not. I'm arriving in Mexico Sunday. Obviously Monday the papers are going to

K: Just say you know it's total nonsense. If there's anything to it at all, I'll send you a cable. If you don't hear from me, just ridicule it.

R: Okay, can I name

K: Sure, you can say you talked to me and I said it was utterly ridiculous. And it will never happen.

R: So I'm still until Monday, you can reach me at the Embassy or the Watergate.

K: Don't use that word, will you.

R: (laughs)

K: Okay, Emilio.

R: You think it's ridiculous.

K: I think for the United States to build a wall between North and South America is so absurd that if the Congress passed it, I promise you we'll veto it.

R: Thank you.

K: But it will never pass the Congress. It will never be built. You really shouldn't dignify it.

R: Of course. You're my biggest and closest friend, I go by your saying, that's enough for me. They are going to be on top of me, but I have an answer already, so if I don't hear from you I will say that I called you and

K: Given my interest in Acapulco, if any wall is built they'll be south of Mexico.

R: All right. Thank you once again.

K: It's a pleasure to hear from you, but really just tell them this is nonsense.

R: Okay, thanks a million Henry.

K: Bye.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority EO 12958
By OP NARA Date 6-8-84

TELCORN

Amb. Dobrynin/Mr. Kissinger

4:37 p.m., July 13, 1973

D: Hello

K: Anatol

D: Hello, Henry

K: How are you?

D: Thank you very much. What you are doing now?

K: What do you mean, what am I doing now.

D: Yes, now I think you are resting a little bit, no?

K: I'm resting?

D: Yeah. (laughter)

K: That's not my impression.

D: (laughter) Well, I think in this case probably you have more correct impression than I do.

Do

K: You think that when the President has pneumonia I go to bed?

D: (laughter) No. Maybe yes, but not exactly in the hospital but I mean in general reacting.

K: No, I'm pretty active.

D: Yeah, I understand. Well, Henry, I bother you about two things. First, I received a telegram from Brezhnev who said that he would like to see you and his colleagues to convey through you, Henry, to the President his best wishes for speediest and fullest recovery.

K: I much appreciate that and I know the President will be very, very pleased.

D: So when you have a chance, please tell him.

K: I will tell him. I will talk to him about 6:30.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E012058
By: NNPA 500004

Amb. Dobrynin/Mr. Kissinger

4:37 p.m., July 13, 1973

2

*

D: Okay. So please convey to him this is direct from Brezhnev. Second, I received some gifts from Brezhnev for your children -- chess and some, I guess some other ______ for your daughter and boy. David playing chess I guess.

K: Yes, my daughter is -- They are both playing chess.

D: Oh, they will have a chance to play chess. When I see them I will try to play again with them but now let them play against each other. So when it's -- I could send my assistant right now if it's all right with you?

K: That would be very sweet.

D: So they know how to do it, I will tell them and you will receive it within half an hour, all right.

K: Wonderful.

D: So I will see you on Tuesday.

K: See you Tuesday for lunch.

D: For lunch. Nothing interesting with this Scheel business when he was here?

K: No, we were talking mostly the Year of -- You know, our own initiatives.

D: Yeah.

K: One thing I could tell you is I think that if you proceeded along the line that you and I discussed on human contacts --

D: Yeah.

K: We could then help you to speed things up.

D: And just how do you mean?

K: Well, if you came forward -- you know, if you made a forthcoming suggestion at the opening of the Commission, then I think we could use that to convince our European allies that we are making progress and that it's now necessary to speed things up. You see what I mean?

D: Yeah, I understand. And Scheel is of the same opinion?

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E.O. 2058
By: N.W. Ba. Sp.
Date: 06/04/73

Amb. Dobrynin/Mr. Kissinger

4:37 p.m., July 13, 1973

3

K: Well, Scheel is of the opinion -- I didn't put it to Scheel that way because I wanted it to look spontaneous.

D: I understand.

K: But I talked to Scheel in a sense that will make it easy for us to take the initiative -- you know, to support you.

D: I understand.

K: I told Scheel that in our view if he showed some -- you know, if you showed some response, that we then had an obligation to be flexible.

D: Yeah, I understand.

K: And he agreed.

D: I see. It's along the lines. Okay. I already send yesterday to Gromyko change what you mentioned to me. Of course in a general way. . .

K: You can now tell him that I talked to Scheel in a way that prepared the ground for that without, of course, mentioning my conversations with you.

D: No, I understand. This is clear. And there was no ____ discussion
...... about East Germany and there was no discussion or anything
about it. I mean, I'm sure it was discussed but what I mean --

K: No, it was, as a matter of fact, -- No, East Germany was not discussed.

D: No, I mean about the Commission.

K: About what?

D: About the Commission -- East Germany or rather diplomatic relations between you and them?

K: We will do that.

D: After the --

K: The UN.

D: UN, yes.

K: Yes. That's not a problem.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority EO 12958
By W.N. Deaton, July 13, 1973

Amb. Dobrynin/Mr. Kissinger

4:37 p.m., July 13, 1973

4

D: No, no, I understand but it will be because you see the matters in the press, they build up and I thought maybe something cooking before but it was --

K: No, no, you know the idiosyncrasies that produce this.

D: Yeah, I know. That's why I'm just checking because my impression was exactly the same.

K: No, no.

D: As you mentioned.

K: No, no, your impression is correct. And we also had some talks with Scheel about the possible level of the follow-on meeting and I will talk to you about that Tuesday.

D: Okay, there is no hurry.

K: But I want you to know that we are working in the spirit of our understanding.

D: Yeah, I mean, but the dateline -- deadlines.

K: That's right.

D: Okay. Okay, Henry. Thank you. So on Tuesday I will be there. But now, meanwhile, I will send you this what Brezhnev sent for your children.

K: Are you going away? Is that why --

D: No, I'm going to have now a meeting with one -- I don't know, do you recall it was Tydings, a previous Senator. He has some memorabilia of his because his father or rather I guess it was his step-father, he was Ambassador in Moscow.

K: Oh, yeah.

D: Mr. Davies. You remember "Mission to Moscow"?

K: Oh, yeah.

Amb. Dobrynin/Mr. Kissinger

4:37 p.m., July 13, 1973

5

D: So he has some kind of picture of Gromyko, Davies -- I mean, they were together and they have here in the ________ government place where he lives now. They have in the [corner of Russia east bow ??] a cottage which was given by Stalin to Davis.

K: Oh, yeah.

D: And so this is kind of sentimental thing because he's right now -- I don't know what he . . .

K: Oh, I think that . . .

D: Yeah, so there is nothing really specifically.

K: Oh, incidentally, I talked to Governor Rockefeller and what do you think about having dinner with him sometime in the next two weeks?

D: I think it is quite all right. We have only to set the date.

K: Okay. But it doesn't mean you have to support him at the Republican Convention.

D: Well, I'm not so sure, maybe I will.

(laughter)

D: So it will be as a big surprise to him, Henry.

K: But I think you ought to know him -- I thought because he's apt to be a significant factor whatever his future is.

D: Yeah, I agree with you. This is a good idea, as I already mentioned to you, but I'm sure if I will support him during the Convention, after ....... I know you or, rather you indicate ......... for quite a length of time, he will not be surprised.

K: No.

D: I think on the contrary he will be surprised that I will oppose him.

K: Exactly.

D: (laughter)

K: Well, he may offer you the Vice Presidential nominee.

Amb. Dobrynin/Mr. Kissinger

4:37 p.m., July 13, 1973

6

D: Oh, no. Oh, no. Not the Vice President (laughter), no deal. He will find out something all right.

K: But if you are willing, then I will set it up in the next two weeks.

D: No, no, definitely. Thereis, I know ............ and of course all right with me. I think it will be interesting. Because I know all his family but him.

K: Yeah, but he's the one -- I'll give you a little explanation before you meet him.

D: Yea, okay.

K: He's less conventional than the others.

D: Okay. I think it may be really interesting. As a matter of fact, I will see his brother -- he just called me today to see me. I don't know what is the matter. Just before my lunch with you -- he doesn't know that I'm having lunch with you but he will be here and he asked to come to me at 12 o'clock on Tuesday.

K: Okay.

D: Probably he'll tell something about his adventures somewhere.

K: Good.

D: (laughter) Bye, bye, Henry.

K: Bye.

D: See you Tuesday.

K: Right.

D: Bye, bye.

wgh

TELCORN

Amb. Dobrynin/Mr. Kiesinger

4:37 p.m., July 13, 1973

D: Hello

K: Anatol

D: Hello, Henry

K: How are you?

K: I'm resting?

D: Yeah. (laughter)

K: That's not my impression.

K: No, I'm pretty active.

D: Yeah, I understand. Well, Henry, I bother you about two things. First, I received a telegram from Breshnev who said that he would like to see you and his colleagues to convey through you, Henry, to the President his best wishes for speediest and fullest recovery.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E0 (2958
By CD NARA Date 6-8-94

Amb. Dobrynin/Mr. Kissinger

4:37 p.m., July 13, 1973

2

D: Okay. So please convey to him this is direct from Breshnev. Second, I received some gifts from Breshnev for your children -- chess and some, I guess some other ______ for your daughter and boy. David playing chess I guess.

K: That would be very sweet.

K: Wonderful.

K: See you Tuesday for lunch.

D: For lunch. Nothing interesting with this School business when he was here?

D: Yeah.

D: Yeah.

D: And just how do you mean?

D: Yeah, I understand. And School is of the same opinion?

DECLASSIFIED
Authority 60-12958
By C. NARA Date 6-8-84

DECLASSIFIED
Authority 60-12958
By 08 NARA Date 6-8-94

Amb. Dobrynin/Mr. Kissinger

4:37 p. m., July 13, 1973

K: Well, Schoel is of the opinion -- I didn't put it to Schoel that way because I wanted it to look spontaneous.

D: I understand.

K: But I talked to Schoel in a sense that will make it easy for us to take the initiative -- you know, to support you.

D: I understand.

K: I told Schoel that in our view if he showed some -- you know, if you showed some response, that we then had an obligation to be flexible.

D: Yeah, I understand.

K: And he agreed.

K: You can now tell him that I talked to Schoel in a way that prepared the ground for that without, of course, mentioning my conversations with you.

D: No, I understand. This is clear. And there was no ____ discussion about East Germany and there was no discussion or anything about it. I mean, I'm sure it was discussed but what I mean --

K: No, it was as a matter of fact, -- No, East Germany was not discussed.

K: About what?

K: We will do that.

D: After the --

K: The UN.

D: UN, yes.

K: Yes. That's not a problem.

Amb. Dobrynin/Mr. Kissinger

4:37 p.m., July 13, 1973

4

K: No, no.

D: As you mentioned.

K: No, no, your impression is correct. And we also had some talks with School about the possible level of the follow-on meeting and I will talk to you about that Tuesday.

D: Okay, there is no hurry.

K: That's right.

D: Okay. Okay, Henry. Thank you. So on Tuesday I will be there. But now, meanwhile, I will send you this what Breshnev sent for your children.

K: Oh, yeah.

K: Oh, yeah.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E6 12/95
By NARA Date 6-8-94

DECLASSIFIED
Authority 5012958
By NARA Date 6-8-64

Amb. Dobrynin/Mr. Kissinger

4:37 p.m., July 13, 1973

5

D: So he has some kind of picture of Gromyko, Davies -- I mean, they were together and they have been in the _______ government place where he lives now. They have in the [corner of Russia east of?] a cottage which was given by Stalin to Davis.

K: Oh, yeah.

K: Oh, I think that . . .

(laughter)

D: Yeah, I agree with you. This is a good idea, as I already mentioned to you, but I'm sure if I will support him during the Convention, after . . . . . . I know, you know, rather than indicate . . . . . . for quite a length of time, he will not be surprised.

K: No.

K: Exactly.

D: (laughter)

K: Well, he may offer you the Vice Presidential nomination.

Amb. Dobrynin/Mr. Klessinger

4:37 p.m., July 13, 1973

6

D: No, no, definitely. Then is, I know ............ and of course all right with me. I think it will be interesting. Because I know all his family but him.

D: Yeah, okay.

K: Okay.

K: Good.

K: Bye.

D: See you Tuesday.

K: Right.

D: Bye, bye.

wgh

DECLASSIFIED

E0 12/95

Authority

By CB NARA Date 6-8-01

TELCON
Amb. Dobrynin/Mr. Kissinger

4:45 p.m., July 13, 1973

D: Yes.

K: Oh, Anatol, when you mentioned David Rockefeller, I just found somebody had put him down for lunch with me on Tuesday.

D: (laughter) Well, it's quite a nice way.

K: And I just wondered -- are you free for lunch on Wednesday?

D: Oh, I think it's quite all right with me.

K: If not, I will change the Rockefeller --

D: Just a minute, I will check on my -- Just a minute, Henry -- think it's quite all right. Wednesday will be all right with me

K: Good. 1 o'clock in the Map Room.

D: So 1 o'clock Wednesday.

K: Right.

D: Fine.

K: Thank you.

D: Okay. Bye, bye.

K: Bye.

wgh

DECLASSIFIED
Authority: E012058
By: MW, A/Pa, Spd: 00304

TELECOM

Amb. Dobrynin/Mr. Kissinger

4:45 p.m., July 13, 1973

D: Yes.

K: Oh, Anatol, when you mentioned David Rockefeller, I just found that
somebody had put him down for lunch with me on Tuesday.

D: Just a minute, I will check on my -- Just a minute, Henry -- Oh, I think it's quite all right. Wednesday will be all right with me.

D: So 1 o'clock Wednesday.

K: Right.

D: Fine.

K: Thank you.

D: Okay. Bye, bye.

K: Bye.

wgh

DECLASSIFIED
Authority Eo 12958
By NARA Date 6-8-64

TelCon
Amb. Volpe/Mr. Kissinger
5:10 pm, July 13, 1973

K: Mr. Ambassador.

V: Henry. I have accomplished the mission. The gentleman was extremely pleased at the efficiency and the despatch with which the situation was handled. It does enable him to make some plans. He has an election coming up there for president of the senate, that sort of thing, that he may have to change around, but the date given is fine. He appreciates very much the President's consideration and he is looking forward very very much to the visit which he thinks will be more fruitful, naturally, between the two of them rather than the alternative.

K: Oh no, no question about that.

V: So he was very appreciative. He wanted to be sure and have me relay his very warmest wishes again to the President and his full recovery as soon as possible.

K: Thank you very much.

V: Two things quickly. You can plan on my being back in the States and spending a few minutes with me the early part of October. The 4th or 5th or somewhere in there if you are going to be in the office around that time.

K: I'm sure I will be.

V: Two, Ambassador Ducci and Amb. Gaya are going to see you the first of the week, am I right.

K: Monday morning.

V: Gaya I thought you ought to know is now much more fully entrenched as the No. 2 man at the State Dept there and -- than he was during his first regime. The two of them will have a more powerful voice than they had in the past, I think it's wonderful you are seeing them and pat on the back you can give them will be to the good.

K: Well, they are both old friends of mine.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E0 12958
By C9 NARA Date 6-8-84

2

V: Fine. The other thing is that before I left for this post the President indicated to me he would send to me and to one other Ambassador in London, the morning reports he receives. I meant to mention it to him the last time I saw him, I forgot it. It would be very helpful to me. He didn't want to give it general distribution, but he would send it to me and to the gentleman in London. If he still feels the same way I think it would save me some time and give me some more insights in doing my job.

K: Let me check into that and I'll be back to you next week.

V: Very good. And Tom Vail just left here and wanted me to give you his best regards, as well as John Scali who is my house guest for this weekend.

K: What are you fellows doing, talking English or Italian.

V: John and I spoke half Italian, and Vail and I spoke English.

K: (laughs) Okay John.

V: Very good Henry.

K: Many thanks.

V: My best to the President and tell him to hurry up and get well.

K: I'll tell him that.

V: Thank you.

K: Bye.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority EO 12958
By CQ NARA Date 6-8-94

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E012958
By NARA Date 6-8-04

TELCON

Mr. Kissinger/Danny Kaye

7/13/73 5:40 p.m.

HK: Danny, how are you

DK: All right, how is the President?

HK: He is doing better--well that is not exactly right either, but
unchanged from the way he was this morning.

DK: Well, what the hell was it--was he walking around with that or what?

HK: He's been walking around with it for two or three days and he doesn't want to admit that he isn't feeling well. And now he's got viral pneumonia--not dangerous I'm told.

DK: No, but it is very debilitating.

HK: That's it, he is knocked out and he is getting a lot of antibiotics, but I understand they don't work so well with viral pneumonia--

DK: No, they don't.

HK: How are you?

DK: I am fine, but --I'm visiting a friend of mine in the country--I'll back tonight. What are you going to do tomorrow? Are you kind of all boxed up tomorrow?

HK: I was going to see a friend of mine in the country tomorrow.

DK: All right, then Henry, why don't we wait until I come back on my way over and --

HK: When are you planning to come back.

DK: Probably I'll have to be leaving the 22nd or 23rd unless I got this bloody ____ in the north with our radio station, up in Seattle, we just moved our whole complex over there.

HK: The evening of the 24th and 25th I'm tied up here because of the Shal of Iran, but the other evenings I couldn't do it--

DK: When do you think you'll be back from China, Henry--

HK: Around the 15th of August

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E012958
By NARA Date 6-8-64

Page 2

HK: I won't go until about the 5th or 6th

DK: Yeh, but I'll be over there by then--I'll be in Europe by then.
Now when you come back here the 5th, will you be in Washington
from then on for a while.

HK: I'll be either in Washington or on the West Coast--

DK: Ah huh.. Now I was supposed to go to Israel after the 15th of Aug.
I do the ________ Symphony--I have to conduct them on the 14th
I was supposed to go to Israel, but it looks like I will have to come
back home. So if you are going to be on the West Coast, I will be
back there and then is that when Amb. Huang will be coming back
do you think?

HK: There is a good chance of it.

DK: Any event, if you'll be on the West Coast, I'll see you there, before
I come east, or if I'm going to be in the East before I go over to
Europe, I'll call you before I go.

HK: Good, where will you be tomorrow morning, in case--

DK: Yeh, I'll be at the Sheraton---

HK: Maybe if I can do something about that invitation which I have had
for such a hell of a long time, we can meet tomorrow after all.

DK: Well, it isn't necessary,

HK: Let me call you, when will you go home, on Sunday?

DK: Probably on Sunday-- 355-2800

HK: Let me call you tomorrow morning. Very nice to talk to you.

DK: Thank you very much.

HK: Bye.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E6 (2958)

By CP NARA Date 6-8-64

TELCOM

Frank Mankiewicz/Mr. Kissinger

7/13/73 5:50 p.m.

FM: Henry, how are you.

HK: Frank how are you.

FM: Fine, Are you free by any chance next Thursday for breakfast or lunch?

HK: Let me see---I think I'm so important, that I'm no longer trusted with my own schedule--it's

FM: They may tell you/because you're more important.

HK: (laughs) That's the only way I can keep my self-respect. Why don't we just say breakfast next Thursday--

FM: All right.

HK: Metropolitan Club?

FM: Fine.

HK: Okay and if I want to change it to lunch, can I do that?

FM: Sure.

HK: If you don't hear from me it's breakfast on Thursday

FM: At what time?

HK: Ah 8:00?

FM: Fine.

HK: I have raised the Blake issue and they'll let me know--I talked to Rush about it yesterday.

FM: Fine, that's sort of his department really isn't it? Among others

HK: He had it confused with some other--the other Blake--you know the fellow who was the DCM to Shriver.

FM: Oh really, I didn't know there was one.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E012958
By C8-NARA Date 6-8-04

Page 2

HK: Yeh he was then Ambassador in some African country, but so we had to get that straightened out.

FM: You told him--

HK: No, no I knew exactly who he is--I made that clear to him.

FM: All right, fine, I'll see you Thursday--I'm going to California tomorrow, but I think I'll stay away from any of your places, but if I see any of your friends, I'll tell them hello.

HK: Well, they sure as hell are more likely to call you--they are likely to know my present associates.

FM: Ran into a fellow at a party last night who said to me--I saw a fellow today who said he had just talked to you and he said the only thing that seemed to me more unlikely is that he was seeing me.

f

HK: (laughs) Who could that have been?

FM: Warren

HK: Who

FM: Warren Beatty.

HK: Yeh, of course, he is an old friend.

FM: He is a marvelous guy.

HK: If he weren't a movie actor, he could do anything.

FM: I told him he ought to drop the whole thing and run for Governor of California.

HK: Because he is one hell of a guy.

FM: He really is and I think he could be a good politician.

HK: I think so, he is very bright.

FM: And he'd be a good speaker--

HK: And he has great judgment--he isn't one of these emotional blahs.

FM: Exactly, that was why I was going to tell him last night

By CD NARA Date 6-8-84

TELCOM

Mr. Kissinger/Dan Rather

5:57 p.m. 7/13/73

HK: Hello?

DR: Dr. Kissinger, it's Dan Rather.

HK: What did I do wrong now?

DR: Not anything, let me put it this way--if you have done something wrong, I didn't know about it.

HK: I was kidding.

DR: I appreciate your taking the call.

HK: Not at all, I always will.

DR: I am told by someone who has been very good to me over the years, which is to say who has seldom if ever been wrong, that in September you would become Secretary of State and Secretary Rogers would go on to do other things, the question is whether that is true.

HK: If that is true, I have never heard of it--I am quite serious.

DR: Well, when you tell me that firmly--

HK: Look, it is--I don't--since I respect you greatly, I don't want to mislead you--it is not inconceivable to me that the President will make changes in the Administration when he judges Watergate has reached a certain point--if that happens, you know--I'm just trying to speculate how your friend might have come to that view. If that happens, it might in Sept, all I can say is that the President has not discussed that with me.

DR: Has he discussed the move at all?

HK: No, he has not discussed--a move by me to the State Depart?

DR: Yes.

HK: He has not discussed that with me. You have to judge your other source.

DR: Right, but that is helpful. Frankly, the other source is such, that I have every confidence that it is not something that he dreamed up, that much I know. It is entirely possible that he may have even talked to the President about it, although I doubt that, but it is conceivable that what he saw were tentative plans--

Page 2

HK: That could be and it wouldn't be uncharacteristic for the President not to discuss matters like this until he has made his final decision. If anybody other than you called me, quite seriously Dan, I would flatly deny it, in your case, I do it only on the chance that something might be in the President's mind that I'm not aware of.

DR: I understand. All right, that is very helpful to me and I'm not sure we'll do anything with it--quite frankly, I want to be honest with you--my inclination is to report as much as I think we know--

HK: Right.

DR: And what I'd like to do is put -- to have some comment from you there

HK: Well you can say that President has not discussed

DR: _--has not discussed it with you.

HK: That's right.

DR: And I'll leave it at that--and what I'll try to do is try to work with some caution on the other information

HK: That would be entirely up to you since I don't know the other informant.

DR: Right. Thank you very much.

HK: Right, Dan. Goodbye.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority EO 12958
By NARA Date 6-8-94

TELCOM

Mr. Kissinger/Amb. Volpe
6:00 p.m. 7/13/73

AV: Henry, one thing that I meant to tell you that I thought the President would be very interested in and please him--the gentlemanc I talked to had a press conference with NBC this afternoon and they talked to them a good deal about Watergate and he said that is an internal matter for America and I'm sure the ______ will certainly take care of And then they asked about, then how will it affect international things and so forth well then he said I think I can comment and it just seems to me, he said that it would be--I think these are the words he used, really be atragedy if a man of President Nixon's stature who has done so much to bring about a climate for peace would be lost to the United States and to the world and he just felt that it would all work out--He said he hoped he didn't overstep his boundaries, well I said I'm not a diplomat so I can't talk about that very good but I said I do know one man who would appreciate it and that is the President himself--so I thought you might want to tell him.

HK: I'll pass it one and very much appreciate it.

AV: Okay,

HK: Thank you.

AV: Bye.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority EO 12958
By NARA Date 6-8-73

TelCon

Marilyn Berger/Mr. Kissinger

6:55 pm, July 13, 1973

K: Hello.

B: Dan Rather is about to say on CBS that you are about to replace
William Rogers as Secretary of State.

K: Oh, Jesus Christ. As you know we never comment on heresy and
innuendo.

B: He's not saying innuendo, he's saying--

K: (Laughs) Now, wait a minute you're not typing this are you.

B: Well you said you never commented--no quite seriously--

K: Look, I know nothing about this.

B: You know nothing about this. There's been no talk you are saying
about your becoming Secretary of State.

K: I said to Dan Rather that the President has never discussed anything
like this with me.

B: The President has never discussed this.

K: The President has not discussed this with me, that's right.

B: Not or never?

K: I can say the President has never discussed this with me.

B: Never discussed this with me, okay.

K: What more can I say.

B: Can I quote you on that?

K: Yes, you can quote me on that.

B: If asked, would you accept.

K: How can I -- that depends on the circumstances-- I can't comment on that.

2

B: Um hum.

K: But I don't know where Dan got this idea from.

B: Well you know the story has been around for a long time. It was a
prospect.

K: But I know nothing about it. I really don't.

B: Has Laird or anyone else spoken to you about it.

K: No, Laird hasn't spoken to me about it either. You know, you could
run down through the White House staff to see if anyone has ever
said this, and I'm just going to stick to what I've said.

B: But no one in this Administration has talked to you about it, is that
right. The President hasn't--

K: Who else could discuss it with me with any competence.

B: Well, It might have been a matter that he discussed with someone
who he talked to and who talked to you about it.

K: I have never had any word from the President. You've talked to me
about it, people talk to me about it--and things all the time.

B: Obviously the press has, but has no one from the President--

K: I have never had any word from the President to that effect.

B: Okay. So we can knock down the CBS story with full confidence.

K: You know, if it now were to happen for which there is--I have no
evidence now. I don't want you to say I've lied to you.

B: That's what I want to be sure of. No I don't want to have to ____ either.
If it ever happens you don't want to have to say you lied to us.

K: That's right. I have not been approached by or from the President
about it as of now. I don't know what more I can tell you.

B: Well, I have not heard Dan yet on what he is saying. We just know he's
about to say it.

K: I said the same thing to Dan.

B: He may be saying you are about to be approached on it.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E6 12/95
By C- NARA Date 6-8-94

K: Then if that were the -- that I can't comment on since I don't know it.

B: All right. Have you seen the President today?

K: I talked to him twice. But not about this subject.

B: Do you know if there's Shah's visit is going to be cancelled.

K: My present estimate is no. But this is off the record. He should be out by next Friday.

B: How could they predict a thing like that.

K: Well they say it will take about eight days.

B: And when are you going to China.

K: That hasn't been set yet. I would think between the 5th and 20th of August, in that time frame.

B: Are you taking any press with you.

K: No.

B: I'm not looking to go to Peking but I just-- All right. What have I forgotten to ask you.

K: Nothing. If you just cut your questions a little bit I may see you sometime.

B: That's a date. When do you want to have lunch.

K: (laughs) Good bye.

B: Thanks Henry.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority
By: C8 NARA Date 6-8-84