TELCOM

General Haig/Mr. Kissinger

9:47 a.m., February 6, 1973

H: Henry, I just had a call from Jackson. You know, he's going to probably have a much stronger role even than he's had.

K: Yeah.

H: He's awfully upset about this Rowny thing, which the President told him he was going to do.

K: We are going to do it!

H: Well, you know, I gave the order to Laird directly.

K: Well, then I've given the order to Richardson. It's that goddamned Moorer who is blocking it.

H: That's right. So I just wanted you to know. He'll probably be bugging you today.

K: Well, we'll insist on Rowny. There's no question about it.

H: Okay. I just wanted to be sure it hadn't slipped because Laird just played his usual game; he never put the order ...

K: No, the real problem is Moorer. He wants a Navy guy in there.

H: That's right, that's right. Okay. How's everything going?

K: It's going along okay. I talked to Clements today.

H: Yeah, I knew that.

K: Al, and I told him to rely on you for some judgment because they're trying to cut his water off.

H: I figured that. That's what's going on. That's the other thing that has Jackson worried. He says that they're performing a little civilian cleat above Clements.

K: Well, I told him not to accept it.

H: Um-humm. Good. Okay. It could really be a disaster over here.

K: I know it. No, I have had nothing but trouble ever since the new regime came in.

K-10000011

Authority
FEB 6 1973

By: [REDACTED] NARA File: 615049

General Haig/Mr. Kissinger

9:47 a.m., February 6, 1973

- 2 -

H: Well, we'll just have to work on it for a bit. But that's one way to do it.
In the first place or otherwise --

K: Well, look, after Richardson has lost a few, he'll calm down.

H: That's what I think. He's just going to have to be bruised a bit.

K: Yeah. He isn't going to win any -- not in the next two months.

H: No.

K: Okay.

H: Fine, Henry.

K: Good.. Bye.

wgh

TelCon

Al Jenkins/Mr. Kissinger

10:50 am, February 6, 1973

K: Hello.

J: Good morning, sir.

K: How are you?

J: Very well, and you?

K: I'll look forward to being associated with you again on this trip.

J: Thank you, I greatly look forward to it myself. To seeing you.

K: And I trust you're going to get all the stuff you've been handling into shape so that it's comprehensible.

J: Well, I hope so, I'm doing my best.

K: Good. You know, we've got to knock your morale down a bit.

J: (Laughter)

K: Listen, how many people do you have on the telephone taking this down.

J: No one. My secretary doesn't do that unless I specifically tell her to.

K: Yeah, but she may have heard my voice.

J: You want me to check.

K: No, no, no. Look, Marshall Green wants me to take Roger Sullivan along. What do you think.

J: Well, I think it would be very nice if you can--

K: But is he going to keep his mouth shut after he comes back? Or is he going to be one of these eager beavers.

J: Oh, no, he's the safest man you'll meet on that score, really. He's really a first class officer--

K: Well he could sit in with you on your meetings.

J: Yes. That would be nice if you can do it.

Authority Eo. 12958
By: R.F. NAPA Date 6/15/84

2

K: Well, let me consider it.

J: All right. He's a good man.

K: Okay.

J: Congratulations on your recent achievements. It's wonderful.

K: Well you're nice, you are very nice. Well I look forward to being associated with you again, there are not many Foreign Service Officers I respect, but you are among them.

J: Well, I do appreciate that and it's certainly always a joy and honor to me to have that chance.

K: Good, well I'll start brutalizing you in Hong Kong.

J: All right. I'll look forward.

K: Good, bye.

J: Thank you, bye.

RECEIVED

Authority E0 12/58
By: NARA Date: 6/15/69

TELCORN

Amb. Kenneth Galbraith/Mr. Kissinger

11:05 a.m., February 6, 1973

G: Hello, Henry.

K: Ken, how are you?

G: Fine. How are you?

K: Okay.

G: Well, are you in Washington or Hanoi?

K: I'm in Washington. I'm leaving for Hanoi tomorrow.

G: Oh, well --

K: I tried to return your call last week but we never could get your phone to answer.

G: Oh, I'm sorry. I've been out skiing.

K: I see.

G: Well, I think you've done good.

K: Aren't you nice. But you've been a good friend.

G: What I wanted to suggest about something else -- Now that you've finished
with this relatively easy negotiation with Hanoi and come to the very
difficult matters of negotiation with Harvards, I'd like to offer a word of
expert advice to you. Do you mind?

K: I would appreciate it.

G: Don't let them off the hook. Just say, you know, I would imagine that I
might be more valuable some time in the future than in the past or something
of that sort. Or I can't see that anything that's happened these last years
has really dulled my experience. Bear in mind that everybody up there
will be suffering a little bit at the prospect of being in the same department --
you know, having people say "Are you in Dr. Kissinger's department."
You don't want to let them off the hook and make their life easier.

K: Yeah. Well, actually, I know you're referring to that stupid press quote --

G: Oh, no, that was caused it to cross my mind.

TELCORN

11:05 a.m., February 6, 1973

K: Because I really didn't say what -- At least I didn't intend what they quoted. I just intended to say I am not going to apply to go back.

G: Don't even say that. Say that, "Well, my expectation is that I'll someday be more"-- you know, be deflative about it. Say, someday I rather expect that I might be more valuable to a University than I was before. Something to that effect.

K: Right. Well, I think they've already vacated my chair now so it doesn't --

G: Well, that is absolutely a general action anyway.

K: I beg your pardon. They did it yesterday. I just read it in the newspaper.

G: Beg your pardon.

K: I read it in the newspaper -- they did it with exquisite sense of timing yesterday, the day before I'm leaving for Hanoi.

G: Well, but that doesn't mean anything. You know, I've had the same experience. It's all their way that anybody coming back from outside is regarded as somewhat of a threat to the quiet, academic and comfortable life of the inside men. Do you know what I mean?

K: Yeah.

G: And that's understandable. They have a dull life. Don't ease the situation for them. After this boils away, say -- well, I have every expectation -- I have a feeling that nothing that has happened in these last years would make me seasonally less valuable or something of that sort.

K: Right. I appreciate that. Ken, when are you going to be back?

G: Why don't you stop and do some skiing?

K: I'd love to do that (chuckle).

G: The war is over; there's nothing now pressing you. Why don't you stop and enjoy yourself for a few days.

K: May I tell you what a third grade student wrote me -- a group of third graders was asked by their teacher to write me a letter -- each of them writing me congratulating me on the end of the war and one of them said:

11:05 a.m., February 6, 1973

K: (cont'd) "Dear Mr. Kissinger,
Thank you for settling the war. I hope there will be another one soon so that you can settle it."

G: [Laughter] Well, you have to be perpetually occupied ....

K: [Laughter]

G: How long are you going to be in Hanoi?

K: I'll be there for 4 days and then I'm going to be for 4 days in China.
I'll be back on the 19th.

G: 19th of February. I'm going to be in Washington early in March. Can I --

K: Oh, I must see you! I really have missed seeing you. Let's have lunch or dinner.

G: But I think this whole thing, Henry, is really enormously -- it strikes me that you might be the only man who has gone up against the Vietnam war and escaped alive.

K: Well, let's see what these maniacs are going to do to each other when this --
But I hope so. I mean, I hope for the sake of all of us that it will turn out
that way.

G: Well, have a good trip. And let me know also if at sometime it wouldn't be a good idea for me to handle something in relation to Bok because Harvard is like, in my experience, like democracy. It's the worst of all places except for the alternatives.

K: Well, I would welcome that. Brock left a message -- Bok left a message with me saying if I wanted his help, I should call him but I won't do that. You know, I -- that's a hell of a way of putting it to me.

G: Maybe when you get through with this, that you, Paul Doty and I should organize the, you know, the ____ Center for International Negotiations and that would be the right thing to do.

K: Well, look, I would love to see you regardless of any Harvard situation.

G: Well, I'll call you when I get back at the end of the month, Henry.

K: And I'll definitely be in Washington the first week in March and I really would like to see you.

NAPALF 10-24 5/8
Authority
By: J. B. St. CLIFFORD

11:05 a.m., February 6, 1973

- 4 -

G: In any case, I'll come down for a day and have lunch.

K: Well, why don't we just plan on that.

G: Oh, yes.

K: Good, Ken, I look forward very much to seeing you.

G: Have a good trip.

K: Thank you and thank you for calling.

G: And congratulations again. I must say, this is really an enormous relief to all of us to have this business over.

K: Well, I think it may help us get together again. At least, to get a normal political debate started again.

G: Okay, Henry. Thanks ever so much.

K: Thank you, Ken. Bye.

wgh

TelCon

Isaac Stern/Mr. Kissinger

1:10 pm, February 6, 1973

K: Hello.

S: Hello, how are you?

K: How are you?

S: Very well, bravo at long last, I think.

K: Thank you. Where are you?

S: I'm in New York, I just got back from London.

K: I was afraid you were in Washington because you have a great ability to get here when I'm leaving.

S: I know you're leaving. I was in Paris, but you were there fleetingly for a few hours, I saw Billy Sullivan at some length, we had a long and very good talk together. And he's traveled almost enough to be a fidler. Really bravo.

K: Thank you.

S: Really, you've done a lot of work. Without your work I wonder what it would be now. I know you're off again and I'd love to see you later in the year when you get back.

K: Later in the month I'll be back.

S: That I will discuss with you. The only trouble is now I'm in the middle of many things. One, I was in London the day before yesterday and was slightly chagrined to learn that the London Symphony Orchestra is going in as the first western group in China.

K: Oh, I didn't know that.

S: In late March. And, all the work that's been done I'm not sure we can let that happen.

K: It wasn't in our control.

S: But as long as you are there, somewhere about 97 on the agenda--

K: Well, I'll mention your name.

S: What I would like to do is take a small chamber orchestra with Alexander Snyder who seems to be pliable to go in--

-2-

K: Okay. Good.

S: I think it will be practical for all people involved.

K: You can be sure I'll mention it.

S: Thank you. And you'll be back when, approximately?

K: 20th.

S: I'll call shortly after that.

K: That would be nice, I'd love to see you again.

S: Have a good trip, take good care of yourself and God speed.

K: Thank you Isaac.

S: Bye bye.

K: Bye.

Authority Fo 12958
By: NARA Date 6/15/69

["TelCon", "Jerry Schecter/Mr. Kissinger", "4:35 pm, February 6, 1973", "S: Henry?", "K: Yes, Jerry.", "S: Changed your mind?", "K: Why?", "S: I'm going to give you one more chance to take me with you.", "K: (Laughter) If you were a girl and pretty I might consider it.", "S: You've never seen me in a dress (laughter). What kind of thing are you going to be doing.", "K: In Hanoi?", "S: Yeah. I admit you're pretty cryptic, kind of statement--", "K: Well, I can't go into it, but I will not be bored, of that I'm sure.\nWe have a pretty clear agenda of what items to discuss.", "S: Uh huh. Well there's been some speculation, for example, you want to set up some kind of continuing panel.", "K: I've got a continuing panel.", "S: Well, you know, what we would have rather than simply do it long distance--maybe have some kind of representation, is that a possibility?", "K: I just don't want to go into it.", "S: Well how about the Laos thing, did that get wrapped up as a result of your visit there.", "K: Well it could happen.", "S: You're treating it as an understatement (laughter). Who are you going to be X X X X X X 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2

K: Yes, I just came from a two hour meeting with him.

S: I see, well what kind of perspective should one look at this, I this
the same way as your meeting with Chou En-lai?

K: Well, you know, in our meeting with Chou En-lai I didn't have to
make any predictions ahead of time. We should go through what might
be a terminal thing, but these are different people.

S: Yeah.

K:q But we will certainly try to put our relationship on a new basis.
And we will make a really serious effort.

S: Well now one other thing that seem really obvious, beefing Quang Thuang three sides against ______ here throughout the war, I mean they've been having their private contacts--

K: Who?

S: I would just assume that if I were you, if I may be so presumptuous, one of the things that I'd try to get straightened out is how we are going to deal with them and what the role of private citizen is and what the role of the government is now that the war is ______ over.

K: Well, I'll certainly make sure that no anti-Administration journalists will get in there.

S: (Laughter) Listen, one thing, briefly, I've been calling all around the world this week trying to get this thing straightened out, and needless to say, I don't want to sound like a sore or anything, but I was really was kinda counting on going with you. I thought that one of these days that we'd work this out.

K: But what can I do. It's not my problem, not my decision.

S: Yeah, I know. Well apparently, the list is 300 guys who want to go there, and what i've outlined to them is a serious project in which we'd do the kind of story on North Vietnam as a country and try to put what's been going on---

K: From my selfish point of view, it would be fun to have a few journalists on the plane.

S:q For relief, huh (laughter)

KAWASAKI HARA
Authority E01.2458
By: NARA Dated 6/15/69

TELCOM

Secretary Richardson/Mr. Kissinger

6:05 p.m., February 6, 1973

K: Hello, Elliott.

R: Hi, Henry.

K: Elliott, the President is getting --

R: I'm just getting a brief account of your meeting.

K: Oh!

R: From Bill Clements and Dan.

K: Oh, good. I called you about the ACDA Delegation. The President made a commitment to Senator Jackson in the Administration of your predecessor that General Rowny would replace General Allison. A direct order to that effect was transmitted to you predecessor, which, however was done only once, which didn't make it official. Now Jackson has been bugging the President and the President wants to get that honored. So could you get it done?

R: Yeah. As long as we're on that, Henry.

K: I barely -- I've met Rowny. I have no particular interest in him.

R: You got a minute?

K: Yeah.

R: I talked to Moorer about that. I think I told you I would -- I felt I should.

K: Yeah, certainly.

R: And he arrived at this kind of a formulation. In ordinary course, the Services would nominate a candidate -- each of the Services would nominate a candidate to succeed Allison.

K: Right.

R: I found that in the ordinary course Rowny would not be the Army's nominee because they think -- according to Moorer -- that the job he's doing in Brussels, which mostly involves MBFR, is a very important job in itself and he's about halfway through his tour and that it would be too ......... [change in tapes] .........

BROOKLYN BLDG.
Authority Eo. 1258
By: [Signature] NARA Date 01/15/04

6:05 p.m., February 6, 1973

R: ... I'll go back to Henry and say that other things being equal and in the light of this, I would have proposed one of the other three. But if -- and we both have this --

K: That's fair enough. Then I can take it --

R: ... is a real overriding and I guessed that it was this kind of a commitment. You know, if the President says -- well, I hear what you say.

K: Right.

R: But nevertheless, --

K: That's fair enough.

R: I want to have Rowny, he'll get Rowny.

K: Okay. Well, that's fair enough. But then can we also call Moorer off a separate negotiation with Jackson.

R: Yeah. Oh, I didn't know about --

K: Because as it is now, it's not between Jackson and the Chiefs, it's between the President and the Chiefs.

R: Do you gather that Moorer has been talking to Jackson about it.

K: Now Jackson has been calling me that he's still insisting on Rowny. The President has -- He's also gotten separately through our Congressional office to the President and the President is bugging me. And I have just met Rowny. I don't know any of the other candidates. I have no preference except that the President did make a firm commitment. One, that Allison would be replaced.

R: Yeah.

K: And second, that it would be Rowny. Now it's fair enough on your part to give the President three other choices plus Rowny and if then the President nevertheless insists on Rowny, then you have done what you can do. If, looking at these three choices, he wants to let the normal selection pattern prevail, that would be fine too. I think it's a fair proposal, Elliott.

R: Okay. Well, we'll do it that way.

K: Good.

Secretary Richardson/Mr. Kissing er

6:05 p.m., February 6, 1973

R: Okay. Henry, have a great trip.

K: Thank you.

R: I just bet with Murphy and Clements that you would see Sihanouk.

K: No, you're wrong. At any rate, I wouldn't admit it.

R: [Laughter] Okay.

K: No, I will not see Sihanouk but I will do something about Cambodia about that involves him.

R: Well, good luck. Was the paper we sent over to you today okay?

K: Yeah, it gives me enough. We probably will have to use the shorter timeframe.

R: Yeah. Well, if you need to, okay. That's about all there is I think.

K: No, I understand that. That's good enough.

R: Okay.

K: Thank you.

R: Thank you, Henry.

wgh.

Authority Eo. 12458

By: Bf NARA Date: 6/15/69

TELCORN

Larry Eagleburger/Mr. Kissinger

6:20 p.m., February 6, 1973

E: You want me to go with you to Hanoi.

K: Oh, listen, you miserable ...

E: [Laughter]

K: Have they given you the word yet?

E: What word?

K: That you're through.

E: No.

K: Well, that's what I was afraid of. You're not through. I'm just hoping.

E: [Laughter] Henry, I was going to call you and then I decided I really couldn't spend all your time. Is Win Lord going with you?

K: Yeah.

E: I really would like to talk to him.

K: Well, talk to him when we come back. Because that's one possibility which, however, you don't run a big operation. All you do --

E: I know and frankly, that concerns me just a little. But on the other hand --

K: All you do is work closely with me.

E: Oh, well, that's different. time.

SANITIZED

K: SANITIZED

E: [Laughter] All right.

K: And the other, of course, is you can get an area.

E: Yeah. Is Hal staying?

K: Well, I haven't managed to sell him yet.

TELCONE

Larry Eaglerburger/Mr. Kissinger

6:20 p.m., February 6, 1973

E: oh, okay.

K: But that I'll handle. I don't pay the slightest attention of hierarchy.

E: To which?

K: I don't give a damn who's got what title. I work with the person who can give me the most information.

E: No, no, I understand that.

K: No one gets to work with me because he's got a title.

E: SANITIZED
and you know as I told you before, I'm obviously prepared to come if ISA isn't in the --

K: How about if they make you principal deputy at ISA?

SANITIZED

E: SANITIZED

I don't know. I'd have
Is that a possibility?

K: I don't know. Well, look, I can't do a goddamned thing about it while I'm in Hanoi.

E: I understand.

K: So just keep it in mind.

E: I have and I will. Can I march down to see Richardson and say: Hey, this is a problem? Or do you want me not to --

K: No, I don't care. You can talk to Richardson.

E: No, but I mean in terms of --

K: No, no, no; it's a reasonable thing to do. It will make you more attractive to him.

E: [Laughter] 30 pounds enough? No, the only question, frankly, is --

K: Always use a job offer to get a better job.

E: No, no; that's my point, that's why I want to explain what I mean. That is not my point. This place has got nobody left but a couple of blind men and three beggars. Because

6:20 p.m., February 6, 1973

- 3 -

K: Yeah.

E: And you know, bad as I may be, if I leave .... is going to completely
come to pieces.

K: No, you are slightly incompetent but you are a nice guy.

E: [Laughter]

K: SANITIZED

E: All right.

K: No, look, you talk to Richardson. When I come back the week of the
20th, you let me know.

E: All right, sir. My problem is I'd like to talk to Win to find out what
he does.

K: Well, what he does is a back breaker, which is the curse of people who
work with me. But he gets in on every --

E: I would never have known that that was a problem with working with you.

K: But he gets in on all the sensitive substantive stuff. The routine things I give to my operators. The things I operate directly, I do with a small staff and don't tell anybody.

E: That's why that one appeals.

K: There are two levels of operation on my staff. There's the day-to-day
stuff. That is done by the operators. Then I have small group of people
who work closely with me who do all the negotiations that I'm involved
in and all the personal stuff. Those are the people I see almost every
day, to their excruciating pain.

E: [Laughter]

K: And you know there's no pleasing me. You know, you've worked with me.

E: Henry, I wouldn't have thought any of those things.

K: Oh, shut up!

E: All right. Look, I will not --

K: You can have either.

TelCon
Miss Dana Little/Mr. Kissinger
6:33 pm, February 6, 1973

K: Miss Little?

L: Hello, Mr. Kissinger.

K: What is your problem about Harvard?

L: Well, we just wondered if you had any comment on the story that came out of Cambridge yesterday that they voted not to hold your Professorship open any longer.

K: Well, they've already held it for two years longer than normal, so that's fair enough.

L: Have you communicated with them recently?

K: Oh yes, it's all very amicable.

L: Do you think you will return to Harvard after you leave the White House.

K: Well I don't know. You know, I'm sure I'm going to talk to them after I have finished, but I haven't made any decision. None of this is for quotation, just for your information.

L: We can quote that it's all very amicable and they held it for two years longer and that was long enough?

K: That's right.

L: So, it was all very---

K: Very friendly. And great respect on my part for my colleagues.

L: Yes. Would you return to the same department or to another department, do you think.

K: Well, I belong to the government department, so that's the department I'd return to. But that's a decision they will have to make when I get finished here, that's their decision to make, not mine.

L: When do you think that will be?

K: (Laughter) Okay that's all I've got to tell you. You're worse than your political colleagues.

L: You're very kind to call back and thank you so very much.

AUTHORISED SIGNATURE
Authority Eo.12458
By: [Signature] NARA Date: 6/15/64

TelCon

Bill Gill/Mr. Kissinger

G6:37 pm, February 6, 1973

K: Hello.

G: Hello Doctor, thank you very much.

K: How are you?

G: Thought about saying bon voyage, I wish I were carrying your luggage. I have been churning for about three days on something and I'm getting really confused about it. I didn't want to bother you because I know you have much more important things on your mind, but it comes to me that the return of Sihanouk is not only likely but is expected and will not be met with any objections from the United States.

K: That can't be based on anything.

G: That is not our position in this thing, then.

K: We are talking off the record, that is not our position.

G: All right, fine. But that clears up quite a bit of it because it has been coming to me from people apparently not too damn well educated in the think that Sihanouk would be returning into Cambodia as its leader, and I couldn't find out or get a commitment as to whether or not he was expected to return as Prince Sihanouk, but--

K: I can't totally exclude that this could happen a year from now. We will probably take the position in Cambodia that we did in South Vietnam, that the eventual political future for the Cambodian parties to work out, but none of this has happened or is anywhere close to happening or represents our current positions. not

G: That is/something that we are going to debate or discuss with anyone.

K: No.

G: Or make any sort of agreement to.

K: No.

G: Thank you very much, and have a good trip.

K: Bill, I don't want to mislead you, it's not anything that is in the immediate future as likely, it is not now on anybody's negotiating agenda. I just don't want you to feel that if it happens a year from

UNIVERSITY
Authority Eo.12458
By: Bf NARA Date: 6/15/69

now, I misled you.

G: I see. I understand. Thank you very--

K: But again there is no reason to suppose that it will happen a year from now.

G: Right now it's just not a--

K: Right now if you ask me as to my state of knowledge today, it is not a correct report.

G: Very good and fair enough. Thank you very much.

K: Okay.

G: Bye.

EASTERN EUROPEAN UNION

Authority E0 12458

By: AFA Date: 6/15/89

TelCon
Ron Ziegler/Mr. Kissinger

7:30 pm, February 6, 1973

K: Hello, Ron.

Z: Henry.

K: I appreciate your yelling at me in front of Diane Sawyer.

Z: That's why I'm calling, to apologize. I'm very sorry, I didn't think about it, Diane raised hell with me, it's totally, you know, insubordinate on my part. I just had so much going and you know I grated this thing with Herb, he's in good shape, he understands.

K: Okay, fine.

Z: Don't cut me off the phone, damn it, accept my apologies--

K: I understand. I really do understand.

Z: Really, do you know I had five different things, you know, on the Watergate and---

K: No, no, listen, Ron, I understand you, I really do.

Z: I'm sorry. I was out of order, I should not have done it, I should not have treated you that way, and good luck to you tomorrow.

K: Good, thank you.

Z: I'll see you in the morning.

K: I appreciate this.

Z: But do you accept my apologies?

K: Of course I do.

Z: Okay, I'll see you tomorrow.

K: Good, bye.

Z: Bye.

TelCon
Adm. Moorer/Mr. Kissinger

7:55 pm, February 6, 1973

M: Henry?

K: Yes, Tom.

M: I just wanted to call you and tell you I wish you luck, and we'll

K: Aren't you nice.

M: try to take care of everything while you're gone. I think things are in pretty good shape except a couple of things that we were working on here, but I will try to watch the store.

K: Good. You do that, and you know we are counting on you to tell if there are any problems.

M: I will, and good luck.

K: Thank you Tom, I appreciate that.

M: One thing I should tell you is that we've been getting some pretty good photographs, that really are pressing hard to push supplies down toward the DMZ--130 milimeters, great convoys of trucks and so on--

K: In North Vietnam?

M: North Vietnam, yes.

K: Could those sons of bitches be planning an offensive?

M: No, I think they are doing three things, I think they are trying to replace losses, trying to protect their forces, and then in the final analysis they of course would like to have that option a year or so from now. But might mention to them that we know of the major effort they are making to push to the south. I can give you some photographs if you'd like to see them.

K: No, I believe you.

M: I just thought you could show it to them if you wanted to.

K: But how do we get the photographs?

M: Oh, I've got them, I'll just send them to you.

KNOXVILLE
Authority
By: [Signature] NAPA Date: 2/15/84

Telcon

George Carver

February 6, 1973; 8:35 p.m.

K: George.

C: Yes, sir.

K: It's a little late to ask you this, but what do you think Hanoi wants out of this trip?

C: Well, I've asked myself that question a number of times. I think they want possibility of aid discussions of course.

K: Yeah, but they don't need me for that.

C: They don't need. I think that they would like to get you present in Hanoi with a certain amount of publicity, some of which they may hope will reverberate adversely in South Vietnam. And I think they want to...

K: They have agreed, you know, to very restrictive news policies.

C: Well, and that doesn't make much sense does it?

K: No, they have agreed no foreign newsmen should be admitted. No pictures...

C: Was this their idea, or was this our idea?

K: It was their idea. Well, I had once a year and a half ago said that I would be glad to meet any other leader than Le Duc Tho in Vientiane, and that they then picked up and twisted it around into an invitation to Hanoi. But they were the ones who pursued it.

C: Have they proposed any agenda items?

K: Yeah.

C: Something that would be reinforced by your presence there?

K: Well, normalization of relations, economic reconstruction, implementation of the agreement, and any other item either side wants to raise.

C: Well, I will guess aid, and I think that it's symbolism and I think that you'd be well advised to have, I'm sure you would, to have Negroponte or somebody along to interpret. And we will watch and see what they put out, but I think that it's going to be foxtrot portrayed. See, they're still playing the victory line and I don't think they'd risk going so far as to portray you as a supplicant because I think we could cut them off at the pass

2

on that one and make them look silly. But I think that the idea will be that we in the United States have reached this agreement which is satisfactory for us and is a large step forward in the evolution to try to buck up domestic morale.

K: Yeah.

C: I was a little curious all along because I can't quite figure. Now I could see why they would have wanted you there some time ago but, uh, particularly if ______ was unhappy with the agreement.

K: No since October I've never raised it at all.

C: But, bringing you there in the present circumstances leaves me a trifle baffled. When are you taking off?

K: Tomorrow morning.

C: Early?

K: Yes.

C: Oh, phooey. Let me mull this a little bit more.

K: But you can get any thoughts you have to me.

C: Yeah. I've laid on a couple of things to be done for you per our conversation today, but I'd like to play with this a little bit, and I'll send you a little note either tomorrow or the next day.

K: OK, I'd be interested.

C: It will reach you by Friday. That's an interesting conundrum.

K: Well, for your information, since October I did not raise the issue. At every meeting they raised it.

C: Uh, huh. And this was something that they kept on. I mean this was not an idea that was floated and then, you know, you accepted sort of out politeness and then it went through. This was something they kept pushing.

K: Oh, no, they kept pushing it because at first they wanted me to initial the agreement there. I refused that. Then they went to enormous lengths to keep raising the issue of when I could come and it should be as soon as possible and, oh, they also wanted to discuss the international conference with me.

AUTHORITATIVE
Authority E01.958
BY: BC NAPA Date 01/05/94

TELCOM

John Ehrlichman/Mr. Kissinger

8:45 a.m., February 7, 1973

K: John, I don't know how far this has gone but I'm violently opposed to setting up another inter-agency committee called an Energy Committee.

E: Right.

K: I don't have any objection -- You know, I think ..

E: There won't be one.

K: Right. I got a paper that suggested that DiBona wants to set up something similar to the NSC, the CIEP, the Domestic Council -- just for Energy.

E: No, no.

K: You know I'm in favor of bringing him on or bringing somebody on.

E: I think he'll be fine. That is overcome by events.

K: Because I think ..... work through us.

E: Right, exactly. With the Service.

K: That's right.

E: No problem.

K: Good. I just wanted to make sure. And now I have been playing with the idea - but I am holding it up - of doing an NSC study on the international aspects of energy problems. But I think we better wait until you and I have a chance to see where this whole study is going.

E: All right.

K: What do you think?

E: I agree with that.

K: Okay, good.

Authority E0.12458

By:TF

NARA Date: 6/15/84

John Ehrlichman/Mr. Kissinger

8:45 a.m., February 7, 1973

- 2 -

E: Scowcroft is chairing a small action group on Iran.

K: Right.

E: And I would propose that we tie in the NSC that way through you or he
chairing whatever activities it relates to.

K: Well, that's on short term things.

E: Right.

K: I'm concerned with the long-term.

E: Well, sure, but that ought to be done I think under the aegis of a
three-man committee.

K: Well, why don't the three of us talk this whole thing over. I won't do
anything - I've held up that study - until the three of us get together.

E: Fair enough, fair enough.

K: This came across my desk yesterday and I'm holding it up until the three
of us can get together.

E: Okay. Fine.

K: Good, John.

E: Have a pleasant trip.

K: A pleasure it won't be.

E: Don't forget to send postcards.

K: Right.

E: Okay. By the way, we were just talking here at the staff meeting -- you're
aware of Colson's trip are you?

K: Well, yeah.

E: George was not and he's a little concerned because it is under the color
of being a trade mission.

John Ehrlichman/Mr. Kissinger

8:45 a.m., February 7, 1973

- 3 -

K: Well, I have always been opposed to it. I think it's dangerous to use the White House this way. I was told he was being sent anyway. I was also told that he was looking at nothing other than these trade that were being set up and I have told any foreign ambassador that asked me that I have no interest whatever in his trip. That is a Commerce Department affair.

E: Okay, okay.

K: But we shouldn't hand out these trips as parting gifts.

E: Okay. Have fun.

K: Right.

E: Say hello to everybody you meet for us.

K: I will. Bye.

wgh

FEBRUARY 7, 1973

 Authority E0 12458
 By: CF NARA Date: 6/15/73

Telcon
Senator Mansfield/Mr. Kissinger

8:49 a.m., February 7, 1973

K: Hello. How are you, Senator?

M: Fine. Just a few things before you leave. First, I want to wish you the best of luck.

K: Thank you, I appreciate that.

M: I'm just delighted you're not returning to Harvard.

K: [Laughter]

M: Third, I've been getting some mail on this Aid thing. I think we have to do it but you have to be very careful with it from all over the country.

K: Right.

M: And that's about it. Just good luck and keep up.

K: Let me tell you, I will raise -- I've talked to the President -- I will raise your visit to China while I'm there.

M: Good, good.

K: And I'll report to you as soon as I get back.

M: Well, take care of yourself. Stay at the White House. And keep this Aid thing in mind. I'm for you but it's going to be a ticklish thing I'm afraid.

K: Right.

M: But we'll work out something.

K: Good. Many thanks.

M: Okay, Henry. Good luck and goodbye.

K: Bye.

wgh

TELCOM

9:04 a.m., February 7, 1973

K: Hello, Elliott.

R: Good morning, Henry, how are you?

K: Elliott, I understand there is some step-up in military activity in Cambodia. And we just want to make sure that if there is any call for air assistance, that we give it.

R: Yeah. I didn't hear of any significant step-up. There's some step-up in infiltration of weapons in toward the COSVN area. The re's been some fighting along one of the roads. But, anyway, I did inquire about that this morning and most certainly we have no problem I take it if requested. Right?

K: Absolutely not. And I just wanted to make sure that that is understood in Defense.

R: Sure.

K: I mean, there's no reason to question it.

R: No, I understand. In a sense the ceasefire is unilateral at this point and was initiated by the Cambodian Government. If they feel that it has not been observed by reciprocal action and want to take some retaliatory steps, we have no inhibition.

K: Right. Okay.

R: Fine.

K: Okay.

R: Thanks.

K: Bye.

wgh

Authority Eo. 12458
By: NARA Date 01/03/04

TelCon

Jim Schlesinger/Mr. Kissinger

9:25, February 7, 1973

K: Hello.

S: Hi, Henry.

K: Jim, I promised the British that you would take that trip very soon.

S: Okay.

K: So, will you make an effort.

S: You want me to try and do it before you get back.

K: Yeah, within the next two weeks.

S: Okay.

K: That would be helpful. Yes, definitely before I get back.

S: Okay.

K: And you will be prepared to discuss these subjects we were talking about.

S: The British subjects, yes indeed.

K: I mean, your subjects plus that special one that I raised with you. The one you handled previously.

S: Oh, that's the one I'm talking about.

K: I think your going over to introduce yourself, anyway.

S: Yes, I was planning to do so. I didn't think that I would do it before you got back necessarily because I was concerned about the quality of the discussions in the verification panel the other day and--

K: It was--

S: No, I asked Dick Kennedy to put me on your schedule when you get back because I'd like to talk to you for about an hour.

K: I'm most anxious to talk to you.

S: And try and clarify some of these things, because there really is a pattern here Henry. That pattern just got completely lost the

2

other day.

K: On the Soviet side.

S: Yes, there's a pattern on the Soviet side, but there is a bilateral pattern here that we are beginning to see and I think it's not at the present being explicit.

K: Like what. I don't know what you are talking about.

S: Well, in the appealing nature of the two forces and how they stack up one against the other. Right now we are in good shape. 8 Years from now, given the capabilities, we will not be in good shape and we've got to prepare ourselves to deal with that contingency. And I can run through this in the course of half an hour or an hour of your time and I think it will illuminate the other discussions that you will have and that there are a number of options that you can pursue. Very readily. You can take your choice amongst those options, but each one of them have got to face the--deal with the long term disadvantages of the US position in relation to the potentialities of the Soviets position and how to constrain them. But that's the heart of the problem and anyway I don't want to bother you while you are going over---

K: No, I was not at all satisfied with the verification panel, but if you could have those preliminary talks, I won't be available back here until the 22nd or 23rd.

S: Okay.

K: So if you could have those before then.

S: Okay, I'll go and talk to the British.

K: Good.

S: Thank you.

K: Bye.

S: Have a good trip.

Authority Eo. 12958

By: NARA File 61504