Air Date: October 14, 1993
Transcript #942

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Crossfire

The American Challenge in Foreign Policy

HOSTS:
MIKE KINSLEY
JOHN SUNUNU

GUESTS:
In New York
HENRY KISSINGER, Former Secretary of State

In Washington
Sen. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), Armed Services Committee

Executive Producer .................................................... RICHARD DAVIS
Senior Producer ................................................................ DAN SILVA

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CNN CROSSFIRE Transcript #942

Air Date: October 14, 1993

# The American Challenge in Foreign Policy

**Pres. BILL CLINTON:** We had strong resolve, we showed that we were willing to support the resumption of the peace process, and we showed that we were determined to protect our soldiers and to react when appropriate by strengthening our position there.

**ANNOUNCER:** From Washington, Crossfire. On the left, Mike Kinsley. On the right, John Sununu. Tonight, The American Challenge. In the crossfire, in New York, former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger; and Republican Senator John McCain of Arizona, member of the Armed Services Committee.

**MIKE KINSLEY:** Good evening. Welcome to Crossfire. There was good news today from Somalia but bad news from Haiti. In Somalia the forces of General Aidid released the captured American helicopter pilot Michael Durant. According to both Aidid and President Clinton, he was released with no deal or preconditions. In Haiti, though, the justice minister and three others were assassinated. The minister was a supporter of Jean-Bertrand Aristide, the elected president ousted in a military coup two years ago. The United States-brokered agreement that the coup leaders would resign and allow Aristide's return this month seems to be falling apart, but does it matter? With the end of the cold war, what can and should America try to achieve in places like Haiti or Somalia or Bosnia? What's the job of the world's only super power? President Clinton addressed some of these larger questions at a press conference today, and we will address them this evening. John?

**JOHN SUNUNU:** Dr. Kissinger, let's start with some specifics on Somalia first. Surely you can't agree that chasing warlord Aidid or nation-building are appropriate reasons for the U.S. to remain in Somalia?

**HENRY KISSINGER, Former Secretary of State:** I was opposed to sending troops to Somalia from the beginning, and I wrote an article against it three days after it took place, and I was opposed even to the humanitarian mission, because I thought it would lead to what this— what happened, and I agree that it's not an appropriate objective for the United States, but that does mean that we can simply wind it up now, as if we were switching television channels.

**SUNUNU:** But can't they take advantage of the release of Mr. Durant and declare victory and get out?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Well, I hate to establish the principle that the only objective America has is to get its hostages released. I think we should get out. I think we should get out reasonably fast, but I am very worried, as somebody who has opposed this from the beginning, that American takes some casualties, gets a hostage taken, turns 180 degrees within a week, whether this doesn't teach a lesson that this is the way to deal with the United States, and I would prefer if we get out with a little more dignity.

**SUNUNU:** But if you were right in opposing it in the beginning, there's no reality to the change in objectives. shouldn't we respond to reality rather than trying to create a fig-leafing objective to stay there?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I'm not saying we should stay there. I am— and it's really a question of a few months on whether we should get out, and I am extremely worried about a sequence of events where the United States marches into a country, to the universal applause of our media and the Congress, takes some casualties, turns around on a dime and gets out, and I think this is going to create an impression of weakness that I think is very dangerous.

**SUNUNU:** But one more quick one. Should the milestone for getting out be a date or an event? And if it's an event, what is the event that should be used to say, "Now, this is done, we're going out"?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I think it is certainly true that we cannot— that we should stay out of declaring warfare in Somalia, should never have gotten into it. I believe that now that we have gotten so many of the U.N. troops involved with us that we should have a period in which this thing can unravel in a systematic way, and we're talking about a few months at most.

**KINSLEY:** Let me ask Senator McCain. Henry Kissinger— what about Kissinger's point? He opposed the original deployment by President Bush, which you supported. He says, even so, despite any feelings he or you might have about what's happened since then, it's a bad idea to get out right away, because it's America turning on a dime, and so on and so forth, it sends a bad message to future people we might have to deal with, that you kill a few Americans, and we're out of there. What about that argument?

**Sen. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), Armed Services Committee:** I understand and obviously respect Dr. Kissinger's view, but I would point out that in Beirut we got into another unfortunate debacle where we had no clear mission, and a lot of young Marines were killed, in fact a lot more than have been killed in Somalia, as we know.

**KINSLEY:** Two hundred forty.

**Sen. MCCAIN:** Yes, and all in one event, as you know.

**KINSLEY:** Right.

**Sen. MCCAIN:** And we basically left. I don't think it permanently damaged U.S. prestige. We're still the world's only super power. We're still the country that won the cold war— the cold war and the Persian Gulf war, and I think that it's only in areas where we have ill-defined missions and a lack of clarity of purpose that we will continue to suffer, and let me just add one thing.

**KINSLEY:** Sure.

**Sen. MCCAIN:** The tactical situation that our troops are in right now. I think, really to some degree rests on the good will of General Aidid, that we used to call fugitive warlord, now we call him general, as you know, leader, and I'm not willing to put— leave American lives to the whims of Mr. Aidid.

**KINSLEY:** I believe, and we actually— I could be wrong about this. Henry Kissinger would know, you will know, too, probably, that we pulled out of Lebanon actually not

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immediately, not within days, but in fact, we did pull out
over the course of several months, more than six months.

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Exactly.

**KINSLEY:** And frankly what Ronald Reagan did was fudge the issue and let people forget, and it seems to work. So to be very crude about it, wouldn't that be a good idea in this case?

**Sen. MCCAIN:** Exactly. I think if I'm— if my memory serves me correctly, it was October the 11th that the bombing took place, some time in October, and we were out by March, and clearly there was an attempt, first, to do what we're trying to do now, and that is somehow justify what happened and justify our presence, and then President Reagan had the good sense to say, “We're withdrawing to defensive positions,” as you might—

**KINSLEY:** But he did wait six months, as Dr. Kissinger is suggesting.

**Sen. MCCAIN:** I think it was less than that.

**SUNUNU:** Dr. Kissinger, you want to add something?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** No. I think really the key question now is not with what speed we withdraw, because Senator McCain and I agree that we should withdraw. I prefer the Reagan method of withdrawal, in which we responded first by engaging in some bombardments and then withdrawing, but that's a tactical issue. The real issue is, how did we ever get into this position? And what is the kind of message we are sending in general about the use of American force in the world today? Which I believe it's coming out of Washington in a manner that is so totally confused that I'm concerned about the stability of many areas.

**KINSLEY:** OK, hold on. Let me ask Senator McCain about this. Now, you did favor the original deployment of forces. unlike Dr. Kissinger.

**Sen. MCCAIN:** Yes.

**KINSLEY:** What will happen if we pull out— and this could very well happen, the country descends back into chaos and anarchy again, and within a year people are starving again, do we. then, send 28.000 troops back into Somalia, or is the American foreign policy now. “Well, you get one bite of that particular apple?”

**Sen. MCCAIN:** Well. I don't think we go back in there anymore than we go into Mozambique or the Sudan or other places in the world where people are in trouble. Let me also point out that we Americans have fallen prey. I think. Michael, from the big picture to, frankly. CNN. It's where the cameras are, where people are starving. I'm told that there are as many people starving in Mozambique as there are in Somalia.

**KINSLEY:** Well, would you say that in hindsight what we did in Somalia was well-meaning but a mistake?

**Sen. MCCAIN:** I think in my view— and I don't think Dr. Kissinger agrees with this, because of his initial opposition, I thought when it was sold strictly for purposes of humanitarian relief, to keep people from starving to death and then get out, if that were possible. I think we're finding out that the mission changed—

**KINSLEY:** We're finding out that it was— weren't we also finding out that that ambition, which seemed very limited, was, in fact, not as limited as we thought and was not possible?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Can I say something on that?

**Sen. MCCAIN:** Could I just say that— I just think that a seminal event was the Security Council vote which basically changed the mission.

**SUNUNU:** Henry?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I was not opposed to humanitarian relief, as such, but I thought that the reason there was starvation is because there was political chaos, and therefore if we did not want to go in and simply alleviate suffering for a few months, and if we. then, had gotten out, we would have left the same conditions that we found getting in, so that the temptation to get into the political reconstruction of Somalia. I feared, would be overwhelming. It is true, however, that the decision to go into the nation-building was not done in the previous administration, but was done in the current administration, and that was what drew us into the clan fighting, but fundamentally we could never get out unless we straightened out the political situation.

**KINSLEY:** Isn't Henry Kissinger right that in retrospect, if we're not prepared to do more than simply clear out a few troops and feed a bunch of people for just a few months, who are going to starve later, we better not get involved in these things in the first place?

**Sen. MCCAIN:** Yes. in that respect, but I also think that we had better understand, and perhaps the Bush administration didn't understand. Michael, the ramifications of this involvement, but if I believed tomorrow that we could feed a starving person, whether it be in Mexico or Bosnia or anywhere else—

**KINSLEY:** Mozambique?

**Sen. MCCAIN:** —Mozambique or anywhere else, and not have us involved militarily. I would support it. I think the question is, is perhaps we better evaluate the entire situation much more thoroughly before we go in.

**SUNUNU:** We'll be back in a minute, and when we do. we'll talk a little bit more about some of the broader policy objectives of U.S. foreign policy.

**Pres. CLINTON:** My experiences in Somalia would make me more cautious about having any Americans in a peacekeeping role where there was any ambiguity at all about what the range of decisions were which could be made by a command other than an American command with direct accountability to the United States here.

*[Commercial break]*

**Sen. PHIL GRAMM (R-TX):** We went to Somalia to do something. It was a humanitarian thing. We did it, we were successful. The time has come to bring our troops home.

**Sen. PATRICK LEAHY (D-VT):** The mishandling of the U.S. involvement in Somalia and Haiti and serious mistakes by U.N. leaders, especially in Somalia, have done grave damage, grave damage to the idea of coping with regional conflicts in places through multilateral action.

**SUNUNU:** Welcome back to Crossfire. We're talking about the role of the world's only super power and how to best

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deal with future foreign policy problems, and our guests are Arizona Senator John McCain. and in New York. former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger.

**KINSLEY:** Henry Kissinger, in New York. Senator McCain was just blaming all these troubles on CNN. He says CNN shows starving babies, and America immediately calls for people to rush in and do something about it. perhaps unwisely. What he didn't mention is the other half of that same coin, which is that CNN, then, shows American prisoners and American dead soldiers being dragged through the streets, and the American public reacts exactly the opposite way. Is it all CNN's fault?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** It is not CNN's fault, but I think the impact of the media and the impact of— especially of pictures that create an immediate reaction and of political leaders who gear their actions totally to what they take to be the immediate political mood create a somewhat jerky sequence in American foreign policy and lead to the sort of situation we now find.

**KINSLEY:** Yes, but, Senator McCain, what about the other side of that coin? You don't care for it when CNN causes us to get involved in places you think we shouldn't, but CNN is having the exact opposite—and we mean, by CNN, all the media obviously.

**Sen. MCCAIN:** Of course.

**KINSLEY:** But especially CNN.

**Sen. MCCAIN:** Especially, especially CNN. It's their fault only.

**KINSLEY:** It does have an effect—you liked this week, and there was Senator Gramm at a press conference you were at this afternoon, too, crowing virtually, "The American people are on our side," and calling for an immediate pull-out. Well, the reason they are is that same short-term emotional fix they're getting from CNN, isn't it?

**Sen. MCCAIN:** Jerky, as I think Mr. Kissinger— Dr. Kissinger aptly described it, and it worries me, and it also means to me that we are very selective in our morality because it is driven by the television cameras, and it's not all bad, by the way. Michael. I still believe that World War I wouldn't have lasted three months if people had known what was going on in that conflict.

**KINSLEY:** The trouble is, World War II might not have either.

**Sen. MCCAIN:** That's a good point, and Vietnam was, of course, the war that photographers brought into our living rooms. So it's not all entirely bad, but I don't think that there's any doubt that a picture of a starving child makes Americans, who are Judeo-Christian-principled people, to want to do something about it and find a quick way to do it, and you're right, when you see the body of the American and the captured American, then you recoil in horror and say, "Let's go home." but also there's a point where we become insensitive to these things, too, and that may be the worst of all aspects of this.

**SUNUNU:** Dr. Kissinger, would these pictures have the same impact if the American public had a sense there was a coherent foreign policy out there with a theme that made some sense? Isn't that really the problem we have run into all of a sudden?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** I think that is one of the most important problems. I think the administration, especially the President, has an obligation to put some sort of philosophical framework before the American people so that they can assess what they see on the evening news. Certainly we want to feed starving children, but the question is, do we use American military force and risk American lives, in a place, in which we have no other national interest, to feed people? And if that is the only way people can be fed, should one look for some other framework in which to do it? Maybe have a volunteer group that specializes in this. But to use American combat forces for these missions. I think, is very dangerous, and it should be explained to the American people ahead of time, what our interests are and where the limits are.

**SUNUNU:** What would you recommend as the theme, the coherent thread for foreign policy in the '90s, as we move into a new century and a new millennium?

**SUNUNU:** In the '70s and the '80s we had an ideological conflict, and there was a fairly easy criterion that what was bad for communism was good for us and what was good for us was bad for communism. It was a little simplified, but it gave you some standard. Now we live in a world of many problems, multiple nationalities, and we cannot get around defining the national interest of the United States in terms that our bureaucracy understands and that the American people understand.

**SUNUNU:** But try and define it for us. If you were president, what would say it should be?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** It would depend on the region, but I would certainly—I would talk less about multilateralism. I would talk more about what it is that Americans, in the extreme, should have to die for, I would try to define what the American security interest is in the world. Even in the press conference today, the President always talks about these abstract problems, enlarging democracy around the world, nonproliferation. These are important objectives, but the crisis that are going on are going on in Bosnia, they're going on in Somalia. They're going on in specific places, and that's where we're being asked to engage ourselves.

**KINSLEY:** All right, wait— excuse me. John, this John. Before we stop talking about multilateralism, as Henry Kissinger suggests, let me ask you this about the United Nations. If we decide, as the United States, we're not going to get involved in places like Bosnia, Somalia, even Haiti, we can't pretend, can we, that we can leave these problems to the U.N.? Because the U.N. doesn't get its troops from Mars. It gets its troops from other countries, and if the United States, which is the only super power, is not going to contribute troops, we're basically saying, these countries are going to have to fend for themselves. We can't cop out by saying, the U.N. will do the job that we won't do, can we?

**Sen. MCCAIN:** I'm afraid you're right, and I think we're seeing that in the arguments against a rapid withdrawal from Somalia. The President is saying, if we rapidly withdraw, as we can, then the whole situation will collapse because the United States isn't there, so I think that certain-

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ly makes your point.

**KINSLEY:** But that's accurate, isn't it?

**Sen. MCCAIN:** I'm not totally convinced of that.

**KINSLEY:** Let me ask Henry Kissinger the same question. Isn't the existence—the very people who criticize multilateralism, as they call it, tend to use the U.N. as a safety net when they're copping out on United States unilateral action, aren't they?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** Well, I would make a distinction between peacekeeping and peacemaking. There are places, like, for example, Cambodia, where the battles have already been fought, where the U.N. can play a peacekeeping function that is a sort of a police function and where we can participate. Peacemaking means the U.N. is a participant in the military conflict, and for that I do not believe that the United Nations is equipped, but you're quite right, there are many people who use the U.N. now as a sort of a cop-out. I believe that when the American national interest is involved, we should act, if necessary, unilaterally.

**SUNUNU:** Henry, we're running out of time, but one quick question. These blunders, these foreign policy blunders, and they've got to be put in that category, have started us down a slope towards isolationism. How do you stop that slide? What should be done to get the American people to feel that we have a broader role than just retreating behind a fortress?

**Dr. KISSINGER:** We are living in a world which, on the one hand, is becoming more and more nationalistic, but on the other hand, it's becoming more and more interdependent. I have sympathy for the President's problem. It took four years after World War II to define a coherent doctrine, but what is needed is to define the nature of the American engagement in the world, the role that America can play in the world, and the limits of that world: and that is not being done. It's a sort of a group of fairly vapid general phrases, because some of this is a reaction to Vietnam, and people don't want to risk it—

**KINSLEY:** I've got to cut you off at that point, and thank you a lot, very much, Senator McCain. Thank you, Dr. Kissinger, in New York, John and I will have a few vapid phrases in just a moment.

*[Commercial break]*

**KINSLEY:** From the sublime to the ridiculous, tomorrow night on Crossfire, the subject will be *Beavis and Butthead*. John?

**SUNUNU:** Mike. I'll be Beavis. The real issue, Mike. I think is a coherence to the foreign policy, and we could get a very strong bipartisan support if the President and the Secretary of State would start giving some broad themes and broad threads that make some sense beyond what Henry Kissinger, I think, rightly pointed out were platitudes.

**KINSLEY:** Well, Henry Kissinger is unable to give much more than platitudes himself. Look, obviously we have to redefine our foreign policy in the post-cold war era, however I also think that there's a real problem of Americans, whether because of CNN or otherwise, trying to have it both ways. We want to be the super power, and we want to

be compassionate, but we're against any use of force that carries risk with it, and that is a real problem.

**SUNUNU:** They're waiting for leadership, and that's what we've got to see come out of the White House.

**KINSLEY:** Well, we're all for leadership. From the left. I'm Mike Kinsley. Good night for Crossfire.

**SUNUNU:** Wonderful agreement. From the right. I'm John Sununu. Join us again tomorrow night for another edition of Crossfire.

**KINSLEY:** *PrimeNews* is next. Here with a few post-cold war headlines is Bernard Shaw. Bernie?

**BERNARD SHAW, PrimeNews:** Thank you, Michael. Coming up on *PrimeNews*, a gunman opens fire at a California fitness club. Police want to know the motives for the killings. And we'll tell you why a mother who smokes is being ordered to give up custody of her 8-year-old daughter. Those stories and more ahead on *PrimeNews*.

Copyright © 1993 by Cable News Network, Inc

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