CNN

(L)

CNN AMERICA, INC.

111 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20001
(202) 898-7900

NEWSMAKER SATURDAY

AIR TIMES: Saturday, Dec. 2, 1989; 1:30 & 5:30 PM

ORIGINATION: Washington, D.C.

TOPIC: The China Trip: Right or Wrong?

GUESTS:
HENRY KISSINGER
Former Secretary of State

REP. NANCY PELOSI
Democrat, California

MODERATOR: Charles Bierbauer - Newsmaker Saturday

EXECUTIVE PRODUCER: Elissa Free

ASSOCIATE PRODUCER: Kevin Bohn

PRODUCTION COORDINATOR: Lisa Lawrence

CONDITION OF USE: Credit "Newsmaker Saturday" (CNN).

EDITOR: This is a rush transcript provided for the information and convenience of the press. Print and broadcast media are permitted to quote this transcript provided credit is given to "NEWSMAKER SATURDAY" (CNN). Video and audio cassettes are available upon request to the media. For further information, please contact Lisa Dallos at (202) 898-7625.

© Copyright 1989, Cable News Network, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Transcript inquiries only: (202) 682-9050.

NEWSMAKER SATURDAY (CNN) - December 16, 1989

1

MR. BIERBAUER: Welcome to NEWSMAKER SATURDAY. In Washington, I'm Charles Bierbauer. When National Security Adviser Brent Scowcroft raised his glass to toast China's leaders, he also raised a storm of protest back in Washington.

SENATE MAJORITY LEADER GEORGE MITCHELL (D-Maine): The president and his administration have kowtowed to the Chinese government by sending two of his highest officials there on International Human Rights Day to resume business as usual.

MR. BIERBAUER: The mission to Beijing came just six months after the massacre in Tiananmen Square. President Bush says that action cannot be forgiven but he defends taking the first step toward repairing relations.

PRESIDENT BUSH: And I think the Chinese know that they still have to address themselves to the problems that were inherent in this episode, but I don't want to see that China remains totally isolated. I don't want to take any further steps that are going to hurt the Chinese people.

MR. BIERBAUER: In China, General Scowcroft called for bold measures on both sides.

White House officials say the administration has gotten even more criticism from conservatives, but anticipated that.

WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF JOHN SUNUNU: It is his concern about such a dominant part of the world in both world population and in strategic geographic location becoming isolated, that he's willing to take the tough risk of trying to reestablish a constructive relationship.

MR. BIERBAUER: When we return we'll discuss these events with Henry Kissinger, no stranger himself to China. Stay with us, please.

(Announcements)

MR. BIERBAUER: Dr. Henry Kissinger joins us from our New York studios. Dr. Kissinger, the mission which President Bush sent to Beijing with General Scowcroft and Mr. Eagleburger, could there have been, perhaps, an error in timing six months after

2

Tiananmen, if not an error in the mission itself?

DR. KISSINGER: I think it was--it is important to restore a dialogue with the People's Republic of China, and from the point of view of Tiananmen, I don't suppose there was ever a good time to do it. And I think the mission should be judged not by its immediate symbolism, but by what happens over the next month or so. And I am convinced that President Bush would not have sent people of the distinction of General Scowcroft and Mr. Eagleburger unless he felt that there was a chance to make progress on all our concerns, national security as well as human rights. And I think people ought to defer their judgment until they see what the total outcome of it will be.

MR. BIERBAUER: But there is an immediate symbolism, to use your term, that seems to offend people, and that of General Scowcroft raising his glass to toast these leaders who are the ones who gave the orders to end the demonstrations.

DR. KISSINGER: Well, I actually was in Europe at the time of the visit, and I did not see the particular incident. It's not easy to be a guest of a government and not drink a toast, but I think that this is atmospheric, that does not go to the essence of the problem.

MR. BIERBAUER: But you can understand why that has offended people.

DR. KISSINGER: I can understand the concern that people have had about this, and all I would ask is that they will judge it in the context of everything that emerges and I would be astonished if General Scowcroft did not achieve some progress with respect to our human rights agenda.

MR. BIERBAUER: How do we measure that? What do we have to look for? We've seen two particular things. One is the allowance of the Voice of America to send a correspondent back to Beijing. The other is a promise, according to President Bush, that the Chinese will not sell missiles to any Middle Eastern country. But what do we need to look for? What would be a symbol in terms of

3

human rights?

DR. KISSINGER: Well, I don't want to make a check list for our government, but I would think that something regarding the fate of the dissident in the American embassy, something regarding Voice of America broadcasts not being jammed, restoration of the Fulbright program, avoidance of show trials and pressure of that kind would be progress in the field of human rights, and international conduct which is compatible with our mutual objectives in stability and security.

MR. BIERBAUER: And yet, even while General Scowcroft was in Beijing, there was a small student demonstration--seven, I believe, students were arrested and beaten. So it doesn't exactly show as though the Chinese leadership has changed its ways, has it?

DR. KISSINGER: Well, I think one has to judge the results on a longer term perspective than what happened on the day that General Scowcroft was in Beijing. And I repeat, I would be astonished if President Bush, with his wide knowledge of China, would have sent General Scowcroft if, in his judgment, he did not think the time was right to make progress on our concerns on human rights, as well as on our concerns for national security. Because peace, is, after all, a human right also.

MR. BIERBAUER: Well, what exactly is the national security element there? The president talks about not wanting to have the Chinese isolated, but isolated in what sense?

DR. KISSINGER: The Chinese are a people, have a population of a billion, two hundred million. They have the longest uninterrupted record of self-government of any nation in the world. Their impact on Korea and Southeast Asia is enormous. Even though the Soviet Union right now has a leader who professes a more peaceful course, I think it is important for us to have a safety net against a return to Soviet aggression.

And finally, I think Japan, which has already lost a lot of respect for our economic performance, would feel that we have lost all relevance to Asia if we lost contact with the one nation

4

for which they have a long, historic tradition.

So I think for the sake of stability and equilibrium in Asia, good relations between China and the United States are in the mutual interest. We are not going China a favor by having good relations, and they're not doing us a favor by having good relations. But on that basis of reciprocity, it is important for our two nations to cooperate if the mutual conduct makes that possible, and that is where the human rights factor enters.

MR. BIERBAUER: We need to take a break. We'll be back with a few more questions in just a moment.

(Announcements)

MR. BIERBAUER: Dr. Kissinger, in your previous answer, you made what I take to be some sort of suggestion that you're not confident totally that the Soviet Union is going the way of total peace and friendship. You said we need to have some contact--

DR. KISSINGER: No--how can one be--Russia, under czars and commissars, has been expanding for 400 years. Under commissars, under the Soviets, they have been aggressive for 70 years.

Even granting the absolute good faith of Gorbachev, one cannot have the proposition that he's essential for progress and that progress can never be reversed. It's a very complicated situation. I hope that we can continue on this course, but it would be reckless to gear our policy to the expectation that it can never be reversed.

MR. BIERBAUER: Do you like that confidence in Gorbachev?

DR. KISSINGER: I think Gorbachev is a big boy who got to the top in a very ruthless competition. I give him enormous credit for what he has done, especially in Eastern Europe. He has shown great courage. But he's the leader of the Soviet Union. He's not some boy scout, and we shouldn't treat him psychiatrically. We should deal with him as a serious leader who has his concerns, and we have our concerns.

But even if I grant that Gorbachev continues on his course, he will disappear at some point, and we have to gear our

5

policy to permanent factors, and China is certainly a permanent factor.

MR. BIERBAUER: So this is some sort of message, then, as well to the Soviets that says we have other relationships that are important?

DR. KISSINGER: I think it would be absolutely reckless to gamble everything on a continuation of the professions of current Soviet leaders.

MR. BIERBAUER: But what kind of a message does it send to countries that exercise totalitarian practices, such as were exercised in China? Does it say they'll be forgiven in six months time?

DR. KISSINGER: The role of foreign policy is not to forgive or to judge. The role of foreign policy of the United States is to protect the national interest of the United States, and the fundamental security of this country.

If a country is of great importance to the United States, and to the peace and stability of the area, we sometimes may have to take a course that is not totally compatible with our human rights convictions. In 1941 we made an alliance with the Soviet Union because we thought it was the lesser of two evils, in this respect, Nazi Germany. Nevertheless, even within that margin, we should stand for our human rights concerns. And as I pointed out before, I have every hope that the Scowcroft-Eagleburger mission will show considerable progress on the human rights front in the foreseeable future.

MR. BIERBAUER: You, yourself, have been in China-- within about the last month, I believe, you were there. Do you raise these questions, even as a private citizen? And what response do you get from the Chinese about human rights?

DR. KISSINGER: As a private citizen, I pointed out to the Soviet leaders that whatever they think of my personal views in this or that action, they have to understand that for the American people, our democratic values are an essential component

6

of our foreign policy, and that as prudent international leaders,
they will take into account American concerns.

They take the view that their experience with foreign
intervention in their domestic affairs over the last 150 years has
not been exactly beneficial, and that these events occurred on
Chinese soil, did not affect any American interests, and so there's
a definite philosophical difference between the Chinese perception
and the American perception.

The question is not whether they philosophically agree
with us, but whether our concerns can affect their actions for
whatever reason, and I believe that the approach taken by President
Bush will produce beneficial results in a foreseeable future.

MR. BIERBAUER: But does that mean that they say, in
effect--and they may not be this straightforward--we don't philo-
sophically agree with you, but we understand what we need to do to
maintain the relationship?

DR. KISSINGER: Well, I wasn't there as a negotiator.

MR. BIERBAUER: I understand.

DR. KISSINGER: I'm not saying that they promised me
anything, because I was in no position to ask for anything specific.
But I would not be amazed if they said, as prudent students of
international affairs, we have to come to the conclusion that
American moral concerns are a factor that we also have to take
into account whether we agree with them or not.

MR. BIERBAUER: You talked with President Bush when you
came back from China, and he has this lengthy personal relationship
there. How much does that trouble him, the fact that perhaps he
misread the Chinese in some way, or that they, in a sense, violated
the personal relationship he felt?

DR. KISSINGER: I don't think that he misread them. I
believe that any of us who have dealt with the Chinese realize
that they have a very great conviction with respect to what they
consider the necessities of central authority, and nobody ever
thought that Deng Xiaoping was a democrat.

7

What one did believe, and what some continue to believe, including myself, is that if the process of economic reform continues, in which China has been quite efficient, or at least has made some progress, if that continues, that this will produce necessities for pluralism and for decentralization that will over a period of time have political consequences. And I don't think that President Bush misread it. What happened last May was, in my view--I don't know anybody who expected that particular series of events.

MR. BIERBAUER: Dr. Kissinger, thank you very much. Appreciate your being with us.

DR. KISSINGER: Thank you for having me.

MR. BIERBAUER: When we return, we'll talk to Democratic Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi of California, a vocal critic of the administration's China policy. Stay with us, please.

(Announcements)

MR. BIERBAUER: On NEWSMAKER SATURDAY from Washington, I'm Charles Bierbauer. Joining us now in our San Francisco bureau, Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi of California.

Congresswoman, what Secretary Kissinger and others I've talked to seem to be suggesting is that the Chinese were not going to make the first move, that it was up to the U.S. So if that is the case, should the U.S. not have done something?

REP. PELOSI: Well, I think that the secret night flight to Beijing has received the reaction that it deserves, that it was unprincipled that the president should send someone there, giving the message that Tiananmen Square made no difference to us.

MR. BIERBAUER: But is it the way that it was done? Is it the style? Is it this image of Brent Scowcroft toasting the Chinese?

REP. PELOSI: Well, that of course was very disappointing; in fact it was depressing. But the fact is, is that this mission took place and the message that is trying to be conveyed to the American people is that it was either/or. Either we do something strategic, or we speak out for human rights. I think we have the

8

intelligence, the brightness, the creativity to do both. Certainly we cannot ignore China, but we cannot ignore the fact that this government massacred its own people in Tiananmen Square, we established sanctions, and now this trip is the beginning of the unraveling of the sanctions which say it made no difference.

So I believe that it was a mistake. I believe that my bill to protect Chinese students will receive a boost from it, if for no other reason than the American people have seen for day after day a revisiting of the massacre in Tiananmen Square to refresh their memory of what this barbaric regime is capable of.

MR. BIERBAUER: I want to talk about that bill, but let me ask you one other thing first.

The White House suggests that it is already gaining some dividends out of this. The permission granted to send a Voice of America correspondent back to Beijing, the promise by the Chinese not to sell any missiles in the Middle East, and there's a hint that the dissident, Fang Lizhi, might be allowed out of the embassy. There's no solution on that.

Does that start to show movement?

REP. PELOSI: No, I think not. I mean obviously these are all pluses. First of all, you know that the promise not to sell weapons to Syria is an old promise, and I don't know how many times they're going to take that out of mothballs and resurrect that as a benefit or something that came off of this visit.

Fang Lizhi, if he is freed, that would be great, but the fact is that--and the Voice of America, yes--but these are not big things. The fact is that there has been no recognition by the Chinese government that they killed these people. They say only a few hooligans in the square. They have denied that it happened. They continue to repress their people.

To this day, university people take handwriting tests so the government can compare the handwriting to some of the handwriting at the time of the demonstrations in the square.

The repression continues in China. So it hasn't stopped.

9

And for us, who really have saluted the pro-democracy movement in Europe, who said go to Malta--our president goes to Malta to talk about the success and the progress of this movement, and lectures Gorbachev on human rights--for us to very hypocritically turn around and say human rights are important in the United States, our constitution guarantees them, our Declaration of Independence established them for us as the basis of our existence of our country--they're in order for Eastern Europe but they simply don't make any difference in China.

Then for a radio station to go in, and a dissident, a symbolic gesture like that is, really, I think, slim pickings. I expect that they will release Fang Lizhi, and that it will then give this administration license to relax many kinds of sanctions with China. I don't understand it at all and there are many unanswered questions about it. I think it's geopolitics done very old time; it isn't meeting the current enthusiasm for democracy, the communication and technology of people speaking out for themselves being spread throughout the world.

It's very old style. I think they're in a time warp.

MR. BIERBAUER: Congresswoman, you've referred to the bill. This is the bill that would have allowed the Chinese students to remain in this country.

Now the president vetoed that just after Congress went out. You will have a vote on an override when you come back and you intend to pursue that. Does this help you?

REP. PELOSI: Well, I think it does. As you know, the bill passed 403 to zero in the House of Representatives, and by unanimous consent in the Senate. So we had a very strong bill that went to the president's desk. Why would he veto it? The only dissenting voice was the People's Republic of China. That was a kowtow there.

For him to send a mission to Beijing in the dark of night was kowtowing again, and this is not lost on the members, but I believe that we will have the votes to override and that

10

will happen at the end of January when we go back into session.

MR. BIERBAUER: We've got just a minute. The president says he can accomplish everything your bill does simply by presidential order, that he doesn't need legislation.

REP. PELOSI: Well, the fact is that we do need legislation to waive the provisions of the J-1 visa, but the president has granted certain directives regarding this visa, and right now I think the one thing that the trip did, which says that the president may grant something, but he could change his mind at any time. We said we wouldn't be having high-level meetings with the Chinese unless--and we did, and I think that further points to the need for statutory legal protection for these students not depending on the geopolitics of Mr. Henry Kissinger, which I believe are in a time warp, out of style, and not in keeping with the principles of a democracy that stands up for human rights throughout the world.

MR. BIERBAUER: All right. Congresswoman Pelosi, thank you much. We're just about out of time. I appreciate you joining us today. Thank you for joining us on NEWSMAKER SATURDAY. In Washington, I'm Charles Bierbauer.