DECLASSIFIED
E.O. 12958, Sect. 3.6

By NARA, Date 5/27

TELCORN
Javits/Kissinger

12:06 p.m. 8/28/71

J: How's the west?

K: Great.

J: We are thinking of buying something here in Aspen.
you

K: If I lived on my salary, you wouldn't.

J: You can get extension of credit. We are going east in the morning. They have a hearing on ______ economic committee and McCracken testifying Monday. I thought I would go down to see what the attitude is. Proxmire is running it alone. I am the ranking member so I will go.

K: The President appreciated your statements of support.

J: I tried to do something with labor and I see it's working out better. We talked about my going to Israel.

K: I will do what we discussed.

J: The committee on National Health is planning on going. Kennedy is chairman. I am the ranking member. He called me. I said I was going. He could be of use.

K: Of course.

J: The brothers have been close to me. I would have no hesitancy of talking with him.

K: No problem.

J: When do you get back?

K: The 5ht.

J: We get back on the 7th. I will ______ in an hour or so before the end of the month when (we can get together) about an initiative I could take. I will use the word mission only for myself. I understand the max parameters.

K: I understand and I think it could be helpful.

J: I have to come back because of the poverty bill on the floor on the 8th. I will be in Paris on Parliamentary Union. They have a great desire to work out with the Soviet Union some kind of bilateral Parliamentary ______ as we have with Canada and Mexico. We have not been for this (French/U.S.)

["DECLASSIFIED\nE.O. 12958, Sect. 3.6", "By: NARA, Date: 5/27", "TELECON (Secure Voice)\nAdmiral Zumwalt", "8/30/71 9:25 a.m.", "K: I was just talking to Millard from the British Embassy about that matter of giving some of what they claim is non-sensitive information on submarine operations to the French. As you may or may not know, the President told Heath at Camp David that within limits of what is possible, he would try to be understanding. They see no reason to go to Congressional committee.", "Z: Under instructions from John Irwin, I have not talked to Rickover. As you know, he wears two hats. One is the atomic energy Commission hat, which is not only under the Executive Branch but under the jurisdiction of Congress. He maintains as inviolate his right, his requirement, to keep them informed. The problem is whether Rickover will be satisfied whether the information we proposed to give the British stops short of that prohibited by a joint agreement. . . . . . . . . . . .

By NARA, Date 5/27

TELECON (Secure Voice)
Admiral Zumwalt

8/30/71 9:25 a.m. p. 2

Z: That's right. I have seen him in this business before.

K: Then I talked to him. I had no particular interest in it except to make good a Presidential promise. But he made all sorts of wild accusations about the President's left-wing advisors. It made me wonder why you promoted him.

Z: By civilian authority.

K: I have found that most people who get persecuted deserve it. Let me talk to the British and then get back to you.

Z: Okay, and when you get back Henry, let's have lunch together.

K: Yes, good. Definitely.

DECLASSIFIED
E.O. 12950, Sect. 3.6

By NARA, Date 5/27

TelCon-10:45-8/30/71
Mr. Kissinger/
Ron Ziegler

Z: Hello Henry. That was a pretty low blow you pulled on me at the cocktail party last night. The whole thing has broken out. A possible meeting with President Nixon and Chou En Lai in Iran (Ron laughing).

K: You are kidding.

Z: No, that is not what I am calling you about.

K: Don't you think it helps you with the press people if I kid around with you? I mean I do like you and all.

Z: I am going to announce the fact that the Vice President is going to Iran to represent the United States. I will be asked the question: if the Vice President and Chou are both there together, will there be a meeting between them?

K: I suggest you say I cannot begin to comment on such a speculative question.

Z: That is the way you want me to handle it?

K: If you said no, it looks like we are kicking them in the teeth. Anything else breaking?

Z: No, everything else is fine and thanks Henry.

DECLARED E.O. 12958, Sect. 3.6

By CCO

NARA, Date 5/27

TELECON (Secure Voice)
Minister Millard (UK)

8/30/71 11:25 a.m.

K: I talked to Zumwalt and his view is that there is no way out of Rickover knowing and there is no way of his knowing without running to Congress. There is no way to avoid it. He is willing to use his full authority to try to get Rickover to play ball, but his judgment is that he will not. And that's my judgment too. It's one of the distressing aspects of life that people who get persecuted usually deserve it. So it's really up to you. My thinking after talking to Zumwalt is to use your option three, and tell Zumwalt to go ahead.

M: Thank you, but our ministers will have to consider this again in the light of your recommendations.

K: No, I won't go ahead without word from you. Zumwalt thinks Rickover respects me and that my talking to him would help. While I am flattered I don't know if this is true, but I am willing to try.

M: Is there anyone from our side who might come over and talk to him, like Zuckerman?

K: My judgement is that if you want to go the route Zumwalt recommends, we should first let Zumwalt talk to Rickover. We will then know what we are up against. If you confront him first with Zuckerman you might have a major problem. If Zumwalt starts you may still have one; but if he gets the best we can do in the first round is to get Zumwalt to get Rickover to say he is willing to talk to Zuckerman.

M: I know have a more detailed list of the items we wanted to give them. I think it shows conclusively their innocuous nature. I would like to send it to you.

K: Why don't you.

M: I will send it to you, and Irwin and our new Naval Attache will be seeing Admiral Zumwalt and I would like to have him see it. One more point, should I tell Irwin that I have spoken to you again?

K: Yes, absolutely. You can tell him everything we've said. But I would tell Zumwalt when you give it to him not to do anything with it until he gets instructions from me.

M: Now that our ministers have your advice, for which they will be very grateful, they will have to think it over again.

K: I will wait to hear from you.

M: Thank you very much.

DECLASSIFIED

TELECON

Amb. Dobrynin

8/30/71 1:50 p.m.

D: How are you?

K: Okay.

D: Did you said yesterday?

K: No, I'm slipping.

D: I think you were never better. One of the last problems about ABM . . .

K: Let's do the second first.

D: Okay. My government agrees with the proposal of the President's mission to Moscow, May 22. Then agree to publish the ________.

K: Yes, I will check with the President.

D: My personal guess is they prefer just after my Ministd meets with the President -- it looks natural. This is my private thinking. I don't know whether it's true.

K: What day of the week is that? Sunday -- that's not a good day.

D: . . . . .

K: We'll suggest another day. October 10 misses the news magazines. It's best on a Wednesday or a Thursday.

D: . . . Octobe r the 10th . . . . Do you have the text?

K: I'll get it. . . . . . Now I ha ve it.

D: In our text, . . . . before this one there will be a headline of announcement. It's up to you whether you do it too or not. The headline will say "The President of the United States . . ."

K: Right.

D: . . . . . so last phrase changes "in light of the . . . ." And now we propose . . . . President in Moscow, May 22, 1972. Don't know . . .

K: They did not want to do it?

DECLASSIFIED

Authority Follett
By CNAR Date 5/10/71

TELECON

Amb. D.

8/30/71 1:50 p.m. p. 2

D: . . . . .

K: My only point is . . .

D: . . . . .

K: I understand. The only thing is when you say "it has been agreed upon" -- this makes it look like the President asked to come.

D: . . . . .

K: We'll be delighted to leave out the sentence saying "President Nixon has accepted with pleasure" if you want it. But I don't think we will accept this proposal.

D: What proposal?

K: Your suggestion.

D: Not as of now.

K: You want to say "in light of recent advance . . ./ it has been agreed upon that President Nixon should visit Moscow in the latter part of May, 1972."

D: Or "will visit."

K: I understand what you are saying, but it is ~~my~~ more normal that the host government indicate some generosity about . . .

D: If you like better could say . . .

K: It's entirely up to you. I will have to talk to the President about it -- I know we will suggest a different date than the 10th, but it would be just a few days on either side. Second thing . . . . then we have to get a good text. I'm not sure we will accept this text. I am assuming you . . . . I have one other concern. I understand your President is visiting Hanoi.

D: Yes. What does that have to do?

K: If he should be there and make a violent anti-American statement and if then a few days later we announce a visit, I don't think that's the best combination of circumstances.

D: . . . . .

DECLASSIFIED

Authority E01287
By L.B. NARA Date 6-21-71

TELECON

Amb. D

8/30/71 1:50 p.m. p. 3

K: Well I don't imagine he will make any pro-American statements.

K: ....

K: Let me discuss it with the President, but I think we will probably want some expression of receptivity of your part rather than just "it has been agreed upon."

D: ....

K: Okay, let me discuss it with the President.

D: .... both of us have ....

K: Let's see what's going to happen.

D: ....

K: Now, what about SALT?

D: They view as a gesture toward . . . . . . they going to send instructions. We are prepared to do it this way:

K: You mean one missile installation?

D: . . . at the same time.

K: Then it would be two for one.

D: No, two and two. One of your ICBMs; one of our ICBMs. Capital and Capital. Two sites from both sides.

K: But if we chose not to defend our capital.

D: Then one ABM . . .

K: If we defend one of our ICBM complexes then whether or not we defend Washington you have the right to defend another ICBM complex?

D: . . . . . mutual -- you don't have one ______ installation and then we have right to do the same.

K: But if we don't defend the capital?

D: ....

By CCO

NARA, Dale 5/27

TELECON

Secretary Rogers
Monday, August 30, 1971

R: On this message to Vietnam. I hadn't actually cleared it; I had talked to Marshall but I hadn't seen it and I hadn't seen the suggestions that were made out there. And the reason . . . they're going to send them both out to me in a little while. The reason I called, though, was to tell you that, . . . well, first I suppose it's probably to late . . . that any decision that's going to be made has to be made out there.

K: Our major thrust is to get the message rewritten in such a way that we state that we are in favor of something done but not nail ourselves to any particular solution.

R: I haven't . . . as I say, a telegram is on the way out because the last one Marshall sent it up . . . I had merely intended that we have some questions. The question that is unanswered as far as I'm concerned is whether it would be possible, either by way of a new law or by way of the constitution, or an amendment to the constitution, to have the election held on the scheduled date with Ky as the opponent, with Ky's agreement, acquiescence, understanding, and have an interim government say just for the month. Probably that's not possible, but that's something that seems to me Ellsworth should consider. That would make a lot of sense if it's possible.

K: I'm just afraid that an interim government would get everything unstuck. I've stayed out of offering my own ideas for the reason that you seem to be hesitant too. But, you know, just speaking among ourselves now, my concern is that on the one hand we have the problem of our public opinion which is very severe. On the other, if we get that situation . . . what Thieu did is not as outrageous in Vietnamese terms as it is in American terms. And if he begins to look like a man who is on the way out, we could pin up forces there that would disintegrate the whole structure.

R: Well, he wouldn't do it if it appeared that way. You can bet your last dollar on that. He isn't going to agree to anything that looks as if he's on the way out.

K: What do you think of the referendum idea?

R: I don't like that.

K: Why not?

R: Think we might lose.

K: Well . . .

R: I mean there you have everybody against him. If he runs against a candidate it's like he's got damn public opinion polls when they say "how do

TELECON
Secretary Rogers

By [illegible]

NARA, Dato

you think the President is doing," why he may lose.

K: But applying your argument of before, why not, you know if he's willing to run the risk, why shouldn't we?

R: Well, I would be . . . that's all right . . .

K: As long as we're not . . . I take it we're both agreed we shouldn't twist his arm.

R: Oh sure.

K: I have no objection . . .

R: Let me say this Henry. We're both agreed we shouldn't twist his arm; we both agree that we can't decide it from here . . .

K: And if he's willing to have an interim government for a month Bill I wouldn't veto it from here.

R: No, and I wouldn't propose it. What I asked Marshall to do was merely to ask some questions so Ellsworth could decide. Now maybe he hasn't thought of this, but clearly our people haven't thought of it. When I asked them they said well, it's going to take too much time. I said why. Well, the constitution says if you're going to do it it has to be done within 90 days. Well, I said, that's the outer limit; it doesn't mean that you can't do it quicker. Now whether it's possible or not I don't know; my hunch is that it's not possible.

K: No, actually, if he holds the election on the third, I think an interim government for 90 days -- which isn't what you are saying -- that would probably disintegrate the whole thing.

R: Oh yeah. Well, I'd be very much opposed to that.

K: But you are saying, could we have a government that runs the election for a month.

R: That's right.

K: Well Bill, if . . .

R: Could accept Ky's proposal . . . suppose he says, okay, on these conditions I'm prepared to run. And then you could work it out with Thieu and say we'll have the election on a scheduled day, but we'll both resign in the meantime and let the . . . whatever it is to be the interim until the election is held. It's only a month. Now if it were longer than that, it would be too destabilizing. You can't . . . the situation would deteriorate . . .

TELECON
Secretary Rogers

By NARA, Dale S/27

p. 3

K: Well, if Thieu is willing to take that and if we are not going to twist his arm, it's certainly one of the contingencies I would not have any problem about seeing put to him.

R: Yeah, well, let's... Let me go over these things when they get out here and as I say, I don't think we should advance this as a proposal of ours, because there are too many uncertainties from out standpoint. We just don't know... what I really would like to do is suggest it as a possibility to Ellsworth.

K: I have no problem within the framework that we've discussed.

R: Right.

K: Incidentally, I've read your speech again and I really think it... is it tomorrow?

R: Yes.

K: I think it's damn good.

R: I think it's a pretty good political thing, you know, for sending around.

K: Well I showed it to Haig and you know his reaction was it was the best speech you've given. And I didn't give him my reaction at all.

R: Well, I haven't really given too many. But as the campaign approaches I should give more and I think we can be a lot more...

K: Well, I like that conclusion... well, I like the whole thrust because it hangs together very well. But it is true that we have eased or solved every problem that we inherited.

R: That's right. And this really isn't very partisan in tone. You know, I notice I put a comment in there about we had bipartisan support.

K: Yeah, it's not at all... you don't... you're stating what we did. You're not knocking anyone else.

R: That's right.

K: Well, Bill if you want to do that...

R: I'll just take a look at the telegram and see...

K: Right, and if you then want to we can talk again or we can then go ahead.

By NARA, Date 5/27

TELECON
Secretary Rogers

p. 4

R: Yeah, I think it's maybe a little late.

K: Well, you have my ideas.

R: Yeah, I think as a matter of fact probably the die is cast.
Probably too late to do anything.

K: That's my fear.

R: But I think it's worthwhile to at least . . .

K: It's a tragic tragedy that he screwed himself up. If he had kept
Ky in there . . . but that's water over the dam.

R: At least the last election has helped us some.

K: Yeah.

R: Okay Henry.

K: Right Bill, have a good trip tomorrow.

E.O. 12958, Sect. 3.6

By NARA, Dato 3/27

TELCONE
Stu Alsop/Kissinger
8:52 a.m. 8/31/71

K: How are you?

A: Pretty good. Doing my work.

K: Wanted to tell you how moving your articles are.

A: I am afraid it's morbid.

K: It's more than your friends can stand so knock it off now.

A: OK. I am going back to ____.

K: You can knock us in preference to describing what you have been through. You were moving and in good taste.

A: Hope to see you when you get back. Writing a piece which I want your feelings on. Nixon on ____ and China has been sensible and on other things as well and we will therefore have another surprise before too long.

K: I don't know about a surprise but it would be amazing if a man who hasn't dropped the ball on major foreign policy issues should do well on everything and screw up on this one.

A: I am also doing apiece for Spectrum, saying everything looking up. Berlin is very major and economy looking better.

K: And President played a major role in Berlin. Initially the talks -- very much off the record -- but talk to Rush and it's safe to say that without the President they would be talking about the preamble.

A: Got through the deadwood and such.

K: That's right. It's -- of course nothing is proof against a deliberate Soviet attemps to challenge position in Berlin.

A: Going back it's a hell of a big business. Almost had war twice over Berlin.

K: Clear roads and they would have to violate the agreement. And if any intention in next 3-5 years they would never make the agreement. With access what we gave them was symbolic and we got exact ____ which codified ? ? ?

A: And a consulate in W. Berlin, what of it?

By. C.C. NARA, Date 5/27

-2-

K: They have a consultant (to the 3 powers) which they can't do anything.

A: The only thing that scares me is the M. E.

K: That's true. How about you?

A: I am doing amazingly well. The doctors said, "if you had ________ leukemia you would be dead now. So they don't think I have classic ________ leukemia."

K: So you are disproving them by staying alive.

A: No transfusion since August 6 and blood either improved or holding steady. Means I am manufacturing blood. That's good news. I am still susceptible. Blood test today with marrow and it will tell a lot.

K: Many, many people who didn't know you were ill until they read your column mentioned to me how much they admire you.

A: See you when you get back. Give my best to the President.

K: I will do that.

By C.C. NARA, Date 5/27

TELCQN
Zeigler/Kissinger
9:35 a.m. 8/31/71

K: Glad to see on the news that WH sources say we are eager to meet Sadat at the UN.

Z: I shot that down. No such meeting set. I was very cold about it.

K: They ran it the other way. The broadcast at 11:00 p.m.

Z: Last night?

K: WH sources said --

Z: Bull Shit!

K: They said the President is planning a Japanese trip and no details.

Z: I said the President would like to visit Japan in the future.

K: For your information -- there will not be a Japan trip next year and we are trying to turn off the speculation so you understand the game. The Japanese are trying for a visit there and then Emperor here first. Nothing out of Emperor coming here and almost *nearly* nothing out of a Japan visit. Therefore, no visit.

Z: (yawn)

K: Did I wake you up?

Z: Yes.

K: Sorry. Some people thought the Press Secretary follows the news (flow). It's noon in D.C.

Z: I shot it down.

K: Who talked to Marquis Childs beside me?

Z: I don't know.

K: Bad story on China. Said we will go in Oct. -- late. And Thieu will come to the U.S.

Z: That's wrong, isn't it?

K: Of course. May come to pass but nothing has been discussed about it. Almost everying in it is wrong.

By NARA, Date 5/2

TELCÓN
Zeigler/Kissinger

12:55 p. m.

8/31/71

Z: When did we change all the plans for China? Interesting column Childs wrot
He claims he got it from you.

K: He is out of his head. He asked if before the debate and I said no, after.
He thinks the debate is in October but not over until (Dec.?). I am telling
him essentially what I told the press pool. And End of this year. The rest
he made up. What subjects will be I didn't discuss with him. As far as the
press party is concerned, it's nonsense. I said it would be governed by the
hotel accommodations. 150, I don't know.

Z: He said the communique they will discuss )'COMMERCIAL, cultural and
_________" He also said Shanghai.

K: He didn't get it from me.

Z: Also said Chou En-lai visiting the U.S.

K: He didn't get it from me.

Z: I think he got hold of some stale bubbly water.

K: He asked if likely the visit will take place before the General Assembly
discussed admission. Anyone knows we can't go before that. If he looked it
up, in the past never up for a vote before early Dec. Maybe this year Nov.
But for your informatation we are not working in that time plan. He said
huge press party. He said many applications. I said it will depend on the hotel
accommodations. Rest he got from the air. We haven't discussed the commu-
que yet.

Z: He referred to weekly exchanges.

K: That's also not true. There are not weekly exchanges. You can be sure.
there is one every several weeks maybe. I don't know what got into him.
China brings out the beast in these guys.

Z: I denied it today.

K: You did right.

By. NARA, Date 3/27

TELCOM.

Laird/Kissinger
1:00 p.m. 8/31/71

L: How are you doing?

K: Fine. How are you?

L: Coming along all right. I wanted to check with you and give me a little help that they are setting a new troop ceiling for Dec. 1.

K: Who did it?

L: Out there someplace.

K: We didn't do it.

L: I will deny that (the new troop ceiling).

K: I want you to. We don't want speculation on that.

L: 204,000 on October 1 and we are going according to schedule.

K: We don't want this speculation.

L: Those stories are coming from out there.

K: We are not running against ourselves.

L: No credit out of it now.

K: I asked Haig to call Pursley and tell him no speculation on this because we may handle it differently.

L: Particularly the announcement going on now. We will not changing Dec. 1 because the President won't get credit on it.

K: Deny it. When I get back you and I should have breakfast.

L: There may be surfacing on logistics build-up. We are trying to hold it close hold but on shipments when tanks arrive there (there will be speculation).

K: It's a routine matter. Within the existing program, isn't it?

L: It is.

K: Handle it that way?

L: Intend to but SVN may handle differently because for their own reasons they

By C.C.

NARA, Dalo

3/27

Laird/Kissinger

1:00 p.m. 8/31/71

-2-

want to show increase.

K: I will talk with Bunker about that. Their suicidal impulse is fantastic.

L: Other thing is that you have been away for awhile and I am concerned about SALT and getting them uncoupled.

K: Offensive and Defensive? No chance.

L: We keep ______ to hex fall back.

K: But no further. You can be certain we will not uncouple it.

L: One other problem is the Panama paper.

K: Which one -- on the Canal?

L: On negotiations. Problem on that is that Anderson and others pressing here for a termination date. Chiefs don't want to talk about termination. Trying to get a paper here that says it will be talked about after other things resolved.

K: Opening of business on Tuesday is time enough.

L: I would appreciate another day.

K: And when End of business on Friday and gives us the weekend to staff it.

L: A little more time would be helpful.

K: I will see you next week. Set a breakfast with you.

By NARA, Date 5/27

TelCon-1:35-8/31/71

Mr. Kissinger/
Ambassador Jha

J: Hello.

K: Mr. Ambassador, how are you.

J: Fine. The Prime Minister gave the program to me in more detail. On November 3 she will be flying from London and proposes to come down to Washington.

K: Will it be an Indian airline?

J: It leaves at 9 o'clock and arrives before lunch on the 3rd . . .

K: You can count on the fact that it can arrive at Andrews.

J: There will be a meeting on the 3rd.

K: On the fourth. We were planning on having her stay at Williamsburg

J: Can't she stay at Blair. She would prefer to.

K: We thought we could take her to Williamsburg by helicopter. It takes about a half hour and it would be more restful for her.

J: . . . believe she would prefer Blair.

K: She would prefer to come to Blair. The formal reception would be the morning of the 4th.

J: . . . she could sleep well . . .

K: We will have the Vice President at the airport. We will have a representative there also.

J: On the morning of the 4th you may start as early as you like. . We will take on the ______ luncheon on the 4th. In order to have plenty of time on the 4th we could start before 10:30/

K: Alright. We will move the arrival ceremony to 10 and start at 10:45.

J: There is a Presidential dinner that night.

K: Right.

By CCO NARA, Dalo

2-

J: She will want to do a luncheon and not a dinner on the 5th. On the 5th she will leave for New York and spend a day there and then leave for Paris and then India.

K: I am leaving open the possibility that the President will see her a second time.

J: Yes, on the morning of the 5th . . .

K: I am leaving it open.

J: The Foreign Minister is not coming out here. He will be in New York and that may present some problems.

K: Makes no difference. I still recommend that they enter the Oval Office alone and then I and others who she designates enter after the photographers have left. Will she bring some advisors?

J: I don't know. Everyone has been expecting . . . everything is uncertain at the moment. We are not sure.

K: But she is not bringing a large contingency. We don't have to set up anything in the Cabinet Room.

J: They will go into the President's office when you come in.

K: No, I mean in other words there won't be 5 or 6 of them, will there?

J: No I don't think so.

K: Well that sounds fine and we have to get together on the agenda but that can wait. We will try to make her visit here as pleasant as we can. . . Will the (? ) want a private meeting with me?

J: Will you come to New York.

K: Yes, I can come to New York but privately. I want you to understand though I am not requesting it. He requested a meeting with me and I wanted him to know I will be available if he wants to pursue it. Also, I don't want any publicity.

J: I don't have the schedule yet on what the timing will be.

By CCO NARA, Date 5/27

K: I think if we can keep . . . for the next two weeks and if we could say nice things about each other for the next few weeks it would be better.

J: When are you coming back here.

K: On Tuesday morning.

J: ...

K: Good, well we will plan on that. What you propose seems very possible. OK have a good weekend. Are you celebrating Labor Day?

J: Well I have to work.

K: I recommend that you keep all American and Indian holidays.

J: Yes.

K: Well good. I look forward to seeing you when I get back.

J: Good and thanks.