DECLASSIFIED
E.O. 12958, Sect. 3.6

By 88 NARA, Date 5/26

Telecon
Secretary Laird
11/28/70 6:25 p.m.

L: One or two things I wanted to check with you on. You going to be here this weekend?

K: I'm going to the Army/Navy Game. Are you?

L: I can't. I have to stay in the building. I let Dave go to California; I think it's good for him to get a rest. So I have to be here on duty tomorrow. I would like to go, but I guess it would take Presidential authority for me to go to the game when the Deputy is out of town.

K: Do you want it?

L: No, I'd like to go, but I'd better not.

K: I understand.

L: One thing. I'm getting increasingly concerned over the fact that there is pressure around town to say we had only two understandings rather than four.

K: I just talked to the President about this. He is going to personally go to the departments.

L: Let me read you what Johnson said. Do you have this in your files over there?

K: No, Johnson cleaned everything out when he left.

L: Well, I've got photostates of it.

K: Tell me about it.

L: This is the President talking to Rusk, Taylor, Christian, Wheeler, ... He says Hanoi has agreed to begin serious talks toward peace in Vietnam including the leaders in South Vietnam. Two, we made it clear that that continuation of cessation of bombing was dependent on respect for the DMZ and ________________. Three, [the Soviet Union understands this]. Four, both Hanoi and Moscow are clear that we shall continut reconnaissance of North Vietnam. In other words, we will stop acts of violence but not acts of war. Hell Henry, if we give up the reconnaissance we give up a lot.

K: It cannot and will not happen.

L: State says that I have broadened the understandings. I have not. I

By NARA, Date 5/26

Telecon
Secretary Laird
11/28/70 6:25 p.m. page 2

have not. I am sending a strong statement over there and a photostat of this.

K: We have some things in our files, but not as good as this. Could you send me this and whatever else you have?

L: Yes, and also what Johnson had ahead of this meeting.

K: The President on Monday will say to all the departments that as far as he is concerned, it was based on the understandings. He doesn't want any further discussion of this topic and that is the line to be taken.

L: I have to take these positions.

K: We want you to. It's essential. The President is extremely disturbed. He just called me from Camp David and talked for half an hour about this.

L: I hope you won't pull away from me on this one.

k: I won't.

L: I went over this decision as far as NATO is concerned. My only problem on this is I hope everyone will understand that we are talking about 300,000 spaces.

K: You don't have personnel?

L: No. This is like a top ceiling. You are talking about spaces.

K: And you can't pull any more people out either.

L: no, we get down to 298. We've got vacant spaces. I am always afraid people will say we are talking about people--we are talking about spaces.

K: You can't go below what you have got now in bodies?

L: I have never told anyone we are at that figure. We keep that real secret. We are putting in a computer process not on logistics. We don't need to fill those spaces again. They are based on the way we used to fill those spaces. On that space chart you have got, we've got spaces we wouldn't want to fill.

K: But there should be no further drawdown.

L: No, but there are some spaces there we don't want to justify at length.

By NARA, Date 5/26

Telecon
Secretary Laird
11/28/70 6:25 p.m. page 3

These spaces were given on the basis of the missions to be done. But I wanted you to understand that we are below that many bodies.

K: Okay. One thing Mel. The President read in detail your paper of three weeks ago. What he would like if you are willing is for you to put that into a general memo to be excalated. Put it up through the DPRC to the NSC. Could you do that?

L: Yes.

K: Good. That would be very nice.

L: I am sending over my first statement before the NATO Defense Planning Committee. I will be over there next week.

K: When are you leaving?

L: Monday night or early Tuesday morning. ED-70 is the real issue. It comes before the Defense Planning Group and the N ______ Council.

K: Get me that material on the understandings tomorrow.

L: I'll be glad to have this decision ahead of time. One problem will be involved. On these 34 ships in Class A -- They have nothing to do with the 6th Fleet, but they can be assigned to it at a later time. Most of them are in the Atlantic, somewhere around Norfolk. They are not qualified to do a lot. But we will have them coming in 1973 and 74 that have the capability. We can take these out in 1972, but our capability as far as the NATO 6th Fleet. . . this is all in the memo I am sending over to you. I am saying that there may be reductions in that area, but not as far as the 6th Fleet is concerned or any fleet in that area.

K: I would take it easy speaking about reductions in NATO. I will give you a reaction before you leave.

L: Okay. Anything else?

K: No, except he's still raving about your testimony.

L: I just want to keep with it. I don't want anybody pulling out on these understandings.

K: We are sending out a memo on that on Monday. We'll plug that hole. We've maintained that position and they know we have. We haven't pulled away from it and we won't, you can be sure.

By NARA, Date 5/26

TELCOM
Timmons/Kissinger
9:30 am 11/30/70

K: I just found out you are seeing Mills on the coffee agreement. Your understanding is that if you don't accept the trigger agreement on the tax we are ? ? ? ? ?. I disagree. We have a major problem. Brazil and coffee are most sensitive. We don't want Brazil to be another Peru. I would like us not to commit ourselves until the end of the week. (I know I should have focused on this sooner.)

T: Here's the problem. He is meeting with the Ways and Means Committee. He will ask Katz if the President will do it and if there's no answer, he will cancel.

K: The President will do it if ? ? ? ?. We will put a tax under any circumstances and with Peru going communist we want to be sure of Brazil. If we have to can the coffee agreement, that's what we have to do. It's in the overwhelming national interest not to have an agreement with Brazil now. We are living with it now and when exports of soluble coffee, which are off now, increase, we will work on it then.

T: He will not extend the bill.

K: Will you ask him to hold bill 72 hours? For a decision?

T: I sure will. I will report to you when I get back.

By NARA, Date 5/26

TELCON
Ben Bradley/Kissinger
9:37 am 11/30/70

B: I didn't get back until 9:30 last night and it's too late to bother you.

K: Nothing to be done until this morning. I am calling about the item by Maxine Chesire yesterday.

B: I saw it when I get home.

K: It's a lie. That's my principle objection. No member of my staff ever collapsed at his desk so I couldn't have said that. We never clear cables that way. Do you think it's handled that way? It's handled at the staff level. When it reaches me I call the Secy on the phone. That happens 5 times since I got here. Nothing even remotely like it happened. The lies bother me and why doesn't your editor check them with me? Then I can give my opinion.

B: I have no defense until I check it. We have a new editor.

K: This wasn't like Max Robinson where you were taken in by a staff member.

B: He wasn't involved in this, was he?

K: No, I looked into that. I checked into it and he wasn't involved.

B: Did you check with Lehman?

K: My deputy did. Robinson was invited but he didn't come.

B: I will talk to her and get back to you.

K: I want to be able to count on a retraction as prominent as the article. Stop the syndication. This isn't a distortion but a lie.

B: I will call you this afternoon.

DECLASSIFIED
E.O. 12950, Sect. 3.6

By NARA, Date 5/26

TELCON
Sisco/Kissinger
11:33 am 11/30/70

S: I don't feel like I am in touch with you. I need 15-20 minutes with you soon.

K: I saw an intercept the other day saying you are in trouble for being too close to me.

S: It's interesting and the true. What kind of briefing is this tomorrow with the new Senators.

K: The President wanted it and have them brought up to date. 20 mins. And I will do 30 and Bill Sullivan too.

S: I will be there. I gether the scheduling people have under consideration whether the President can give Maxx Hussein a working dinner. If you could get it worked up and it's very desirable. And it's the least he can do.

K: I will try.

By NARA, Date 5/26

TELCOM
Amb. Sullivan/Kissinger

11:36 am

11/30/70

K: The President wants to be sure that press is ______ for a press conference (?)
He wants to be sure it includes ______ productive talks and they haven't taken place.
He wants a very strong play on the POWs.

S: They are doing a press conference tomorrow.

K: He wants to say ix at the press conference and on Thurs. the standard exchange proposal. It's barbaric for them not to agree to that but there's no excuse not to release the names of the people they do hold to all kinds of loved ones at least. They are playing blackmail with human lives but to play this much is unconcionable.

S: On the preto productiv talks, Al said you would call. I want to be clear where this is expected to go. Something to the effect we will not continue to do this way. You don't want a ______?

K: Not yet.

K: ______ language used at private talk at that time. Mak it clear there's an element of understanding. Did you see the Smith article this morning in the TIMES? It says there are people in and out of the Administration who feel that "raids" are ______. I asked McClosky to get an answer from Zeigler. The understanding that cessation of bombing did depend on certain things. I said to be sure there's guidance here and in the Pentagon. You may want to focus on that for help to Ron. Something I want to call to your attention. I thought I would send out a cable. You may have seen that NVN have given information on POWs through the French. This is an indication that NVN are willing to reciprocate French eagerness to get into this act. I am afraid they will become the brokers on the bodies of our men. It's also a hell of a lot of evidence that the French are in the Ninh enterprise. So we may have problems on being very merciful but which the NVN can shrewdly turn to their advantage.

K: We are not eager to play with them.

S: I know but the NVN have rebuffed them until now.

K: That's true. It has nothing to do with the raids?

S: It came on the 26th after the raid. As part of general reqction to raid they decided to use some of the French initiative. What did you mean?

K: That they want to show greater humanitarian image.

S: Exploit presumptive humanitarian country such as the French to use the POWs.

K: That's probably true.

By NARA, Date 5/26

Amb. Sullivan/Kissinger

11:36 am 11/30/70

S: I doubt they are too concerned about their impression as humanitarians. They want to have the audience here. They want to continue the impression they are humanitarian but only to a point. On this first one I will send over a cable for you to clear on what to say on Thurs.

K: They might hit point of what to hit tomorrow.

S: They will.

K: Asking for lists.

S: And other provisions of Geneva Accords which they are not adhering to.

K: Barbaric use.

S: Do you want to use that word?

K: Inhuman.

S: They resent barbaric because it gets into ethnic undertones. I gather I see you tomorrow with the Senators.

K: 20 minutes worth of VN policy.

By NARA, Date 5/26

Gov. Dewey/Mr. Kissinger (paraphrased)

November 30, 1970 11:50 a.m.

jlj

D: How are you Henry. Have you heard anymore from the lose the war guys?

K: I am pretty used to it now. They have not got their old fanaticism.

D: The what?

K: The same degree of drive to criticise that they had last fall.

D: I have talked to Lucius about what days he would like to come down in event there is some purpose in our coming down. He mentioned some days that I was unable to make it. How about Monday, December 7 if that is feasible for you?

K: I will make it feasible. Let me see if I have lunch free on that day. No, I do have a luncheon that I cannot change. But we can meet before or after. Let's do the 7th.

D: Fine. This is the only day that I have. I am leaving on the 10th for a 4 day weekend in Florida.

K: That's always a good idea.

D: I have a suite down there if you want to use it anytime. It is at the Seaview (phnnetic) in Miami. Just let me know which weekend you may want to use it. Next weekend or the next weekend I will not be there - I am going down on the 9th.

K: Is that always available. Yes well I mean unless you are down there.

D: It is a three room suite.

K: Tom I might take you up on that sometime. It sounds very nice. I will call you as soon as I know. It gets rather claustrophobic here.

D: You can lie in bed and look at the ocean or you can go downstairs to the cabana or sit on the private terrace and take as much sun as you want or swim in the pool or the ocean. It is a three day suite. [Gov. Dewey mentioned "Freedom House" but I am not sure I heard him right.) This weekend or next weekend - I am going down on the 9th for 4 days. I think that is all I am going to use it this year.

By NARA, Date 5/26

2

K: I don't really know when I could get away. It will be on some such basis.

D: It would be nice if you could spend a whole week.

K: It would probably have to be from a Thursday night to Sunday night.

D: I have some friends down there if you would like to have dinner with them. Andreas (phonetic) the President of the hotel, who was also Humphrey's manager. I see Humphrey down there quite often.

K: Is this in Miami Beach?

D: It is 2 doors north of the Americana. Nicest part of Miami and the people are nice.

K: I will see you on Monday.

D: Lucius will be with me. I will have Miss Roth let your secretary know when we are arriving.

K: We will send a car for you.

By

NARA, Dato 5/26

TELCORN
Sen. Case/Kissinger

4:01 pm

11/30/70

K: I didn't follow those hearings last week like I should have but I wasn't found when reading the transcripts that you were upset about the backgrounders and that I was the cause of your not getting them.

C: I haven't seen the transcripts. In talking with Laird --

K: I may have signed the letter but it's a WH policy.

C: You made the point in the letter yourself that it was the President's office and that you did say you didn't disagree with this. You were just transmitting your position. I understand that. If there's anything in the record that needs to be made clearer --

K: I don't care about the record but I value our relationship and I want you to understand. I am at your disposal to tell you what I think but you can work out with the Congressional or press people here I will cooperate with.

C: My own thinking is to say that if they are distributed to the press generally --

K: They are kept here in the WH office and the press can read it.

C: They are accessible to the press and it seems a gratuitous slight.

K: It isn't self-evident to me how a Senator couldn't read --

C: It was evident that you felt that way.

K: As far as I am concerned any information I have is at your disposal.

C: I never doubted it. If As far as information goes in your frankenss with me --

K: Why don't you raise it with our Congressional people and see how it comes out?

C: You mean the legislative liason?

K: Yes. It doesn't seem a prepostourous position.

C: You are a nice fellow and I never doubted it.

K: Not at all. I have a great deal of respect for what you are doing.

C: Thank you for saying so.

By

NARA, Dale 5/26

Under Secretary Irwin/Mr. Kissinger

November 30, 1970 5:25 p.m.

(paraphrased)

jlj

I: Henry, on the alledged defection of the Soviet seaman, the Commandant of the Coast Guard has released the following statement. Have you seen it. (Mr. Irwin reading - . . . information from the would be defector relayed to the State for advice. However defector did not wait for the advice to be received . . . decision made soon thereafter to return the defector to the Soviets . . . )

K: What is the sense of this. How was he going to get over there except by jumping?

I: This was the statement made by the Commandant of the Coast Guard. Coast Guard vessel "Vigilant" (reading again - on 23 November . . . jumping. Conversation during the day between the two vessels.) He after, presumably, went back to his own ship - this is my assumption. ( reading - decision made to return by force if necessary. Felt that any force should be by the Soviets.) The two ships were side by side because they were invited into our waters to discuss fisheries in northwest Atlantic. The Commander of the Soviet ship said that he took $2,000 from the ships fund.

K: This is usual.

I: Commander felt that the man should be returned and . . . has not received specific instruction . . . Commandant of the Coast Guard was not sure he took the proper action. . . . do not approve that this was the right course of action.

K: OK. Of course. God damn that moron! Excuse me.

I: Commandant's statement continues that the State Department will give us information in the future in case something like this happens again. Pretty clearly defers suspending our man. If we did suspend him it would just get us into a bunch of trouble for WEXX wrongly suspending an unguilty party.

K: Right, I agree.

KX I: We won't do anything about it.

K: Yes. I am doing this on my own but I will check with the President on it.

I: It is hard to understand.

K: I cannot understand the Commandant of the Coast Guard.

I: He disavows the action - not perhaps clearly in the strongest words possibly. OK Henry, Thank you.

By NARA, Date 5/26

TELCORN

Mr. Kissinger/Secretary Laird

8:13 p.m., November 30, 1970

L: Henry, how are you?

K: Okay, Mel. How are you?

L: Fine. Did you go over that -- what do you think is the final answer on the ships?

K: You should have gotten it already. The President would just as soon you not raise it. We will take our chances on taking a little hell later.

L: Not raise it.

K: You saw the directive from the understanding?

L: It hadn't come over yet.

K: Don't know how they are sending it, by pony.

L: By snow sled maybe. Did you see my memo on that?

K: No, I think Haig and Pursley are taking over your job and mine.

L: (laughter) My wife is yelling at me right now.

K: Are you going off tomorrow?

L: Early in the morning.

K: As always, Mel, during a critical period you always come through and we greatly appreciate it.

L: I always come through but I would like to be tougher on Fulbright and those guys. Someday I will settle a few things.

K: This guy has an urge to lose.

L: I try to be a little more responsible now that I am in the Executive Branch.

K: I have talked to your office about the unconventional operation plan to be carried out by the South Vietnamese.

L: We are working on that and will have a report on the 9th of December.

By NARA, Dato 5/26

TELCORN

Mr. Kissinger/Secretary Laird

8:13 p.m., November 30, 1970

K: When will you be back?

L: On the 8th. I have gone over this area this afternoon and I will have it on the 8th and will get it to you on the 9th of December.

K: Really appreciate everything you have done, Mel.

L: You have a supporter anyway in the Department of Defense as far as the White House is concerned.

K: It is greatly appreciated and I hope you have a nice trip.

wgh

By NARA, Date 5/26

Telecon
Mr. Kissinger
The President
11/30/70; 9:05 p.m.

P: It occurred to me that the Legislative leaders at the meeting tomorrow won't have a great deal to talk about and I wondered if Laird might come in and give them a little rundown.

K: Laird won't be able to do it because he is leaving for NATO first thing in the morning.

P: That's fine -- no problem. He is going to NATO, huh?

K: Yes, he is leaving at 9:00 a.m. or maybe earlier.

P: What meeting is this?

K: First is a meeting of the Defense Ministers and then the regular NATO Ministerial meeting that the Secretary of State is also attending.

P: Yeah, okay.

K: They will be back early next week.

P: Fine. Do you have anything else at this moment?

K: No, it is fairly quiet today.

P: I talked to the two old men. . .

K: I thought it was interesting that both of them said that if you feel it necessary to do some bombing they will go along.

P: Just give them a little notice. If they understand the bombing is to support our troops over there.

K: Actually, I was amazed by Cooper.

P: He has some patriotism. They were behind Son Tay and behind the bombing.

K: One thing that has happened is that a bomb exploded at the Embassy in Phnom Penh but no damage was done. That would be one of the few terrorist acts that has taken place in Cambodia.

By NARA, Date 5/26

Telecon
Mr. Kissinger/The President
11/30/70; 9:05 p.m.

-2-

P: The whole thing now is to keep jamming the guys on this Son Tay thing. Let them continue to commiserate on the issue.

K: These people recognize Cambodia was the key to everything.

P: Well, it's hard for people who oppose something to say maybe it was right.

K: But this is actually what is happening.

P: If we had not gone into Cambodia it would not be there. It would be a puppet government. We would be down the tube.

K: That is recognized by everyone.

P: To be able to stop that bang when it comes.

K: To have a high performance plane chase trucks is ridiculous.

P: That's really true. To fight an air battle which really wasn't going to take place . . .

K: We really have not had a first-rate air opponent. The best weapon is the one that was never designed for tactical operation -- the B-52.

P: And we are still using it.

K: That's another thing, nobody knows how we tore up those supply bases before we really went in there.

P: I am reading Helms' analysis of the Chilean thing. Korry put his chips on the Christian Democrat party -- so did State -- that was the mistake.

K: State didn't put the chips on anybody. The consequences are that we have suffered a major defeat in Latin America.

P: I can't figure it out. It's just the Latin American division over there.

K: Now that they have seen some of the consequences -- they are learning but the country is suffering.

P: On the military budget -- I noted the Senate cut $2 billion. I am just waiting. If they want to make that an issue, we will make it an issue. What got Dewey in an uproar (?)

By NARA, Dale 5/26

K: He wasn't in an uproar. He calls every once in a while to see about coming down.

P: I hope you reassured him on Son Tay.

K: I didn't have to. I have not run into anyone who is attacking Son Tay.

P: They are finding it is like attacking the Flag.

K: I think what we should do is have a better research of what these characters were daying during Cambodia, during the moratorium, etc. We will be able to demonstrate they have opposed every step of the way. I remember in March Muskie was starting to attack again.

P: Right. Harriman was pushing him. Okay, goodnight.

feg

By NARA, Date 5/26

TELCORN

Mr. Kissinger/The President

9:32 p.m., November 30, 1970

K: Mr. President

P: With regard to the Coast Guard thing, nothing will be announced until
after we complete the investigation.

K: Just so we don't shoot it from the hip, those three officers are
suspended and when we do release we can say that they were suspended
immediately.

P: Of course there is one problem, the Coast Guard ought not to be in the
Department of Transportation.

K: Used to be in the Treasury Department.

P: It should be in Defense, Coast Guard ought to be -- I just put a note
on reorganization. Coast Guard activities involve ________. Why
the hell it's in Transportation, I don't know.

K: Think it was in Treasury.

P: To create a job for somebody.

K: Historically that's where it would make more sense.

P: In Treasury because of customs but why the hell Transportation.

K: Makes no sense.

P: The other thing -- fisheries. The only problem I see with these
individuals, some stupid ass in the State Department cleared on this.
I want to know who gave the order.

K: He apparently didn't give the order, Mr. President. The Coast Guard
admits that he didn't do anything. If he had been very energetic, he
would have notified -- someone like Haig with some real initiative
would have handled it bureaucratically, Coast Guard didn't.

P: What is the Coast Guard saying about it?

K: Put out a statement today, they are so naive. Commander of Russian
ship accused this fellow of having gotten away with $2,000 of the ship's
money.

P: That's what they always do. Accuse them of ________ or thievery.

By NARA, Date 5/26

TELCORN

Mr. Kissinger/The President

9:32 p.m., November 30, 1970

K: They do that so that they can get an extradition case against them. A decision was made that he should be removed with whatever force was necessary but by Soviet personnel. Stupidity of the thing was ???? and now has a man's life on his conscience.

P: Did he die?

K: Not yet but they beat him ?????

P: They will kill him. In front of the Americans?

K: In front of the Americans.

P: Goddamm those people! I feel sorry for the bastard, made such a horrible mistake. Anyone that allowed that to happen will be removed. What do you do, transfer them?

K: One could do something about their promotions, transfer them to a position with lesser responsibility.

P: Got to find out what to do about it, transfer them from the post. Certainly the Commandant of the Coast Guard isn't trying to defend the thing is he?

K: Reading between the lines of the statement, wasn't trying to defend him. While the State Department didn't make any active mistake, they certainly didn't jump into it either. If another defector to an American ?????

P: They would beat the hell out of him. I think it's really an education in softness -- the whole idea of getting along with the Russians. I eas really pleased with the New York Times article.

K: I'll ____________.

P: What ground?

K: Humanitarian. How ______ recent disgrace. Didn't use it to take a slap at the Administration, they didn't do it that way.

P: Really something.

K: It was outrageous.

P: The sad thing -- one thing about it repudiates this fellow.

By NARA, Date 5/26

TELCORN

Mr. Kissinger/The President

9:32 p.m., November 30, 1970

K: It shows that the President is watching. This thing along with the Hickel matters shows that getting more discipline.

P: When I saw you today, there wasn't time to raise it with you and Haldeman but I would like those recommendations of yours on the whole disciplinary bunch -- getting these people in. Are you going to work out a scheme with him on the PIO officers?

K: Oh, yes. (interrupted by visitor in office) ? ? ? to clear off on their daily briefs as Ziegler does. The Bureau chief would be held responsible. Then the protective association will work for you. If one of their guys leak, they will be fired.

P: For the guilty party.

K: If you ask for the guy that did it, you will never find the guy who did it.

wgh