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**VAN SUSTEREN:** Mr. Secretary, they have a tremendous amount of oil resources in Saudi Arabia that America is dependent upon. Do you think our relationship would be even remotely what it is now if we were not so dependent on their oil?

**KISSINGER:** Well, that's an impossible question to answer because we are dependent, to some extent, on the oil. We do have air bases there. And we should make a distinction between the Saudi government, which is not the strongest in the world in terms of its control over its population, and what may be done by Saudi citizens. The Saudi government, on the whole, has been cooperative with the United States. It has permitted air bases to be there, and it has permitted more things to be done than it has officially announced.

On the other hand, there are trends inside the country that are worrisome and which should be opposed and must be opposed and are being opposed by — by our administration. But at a time when we have troops in Afghanistan, when we are thinking of war with Iraq, I think it is reckless to talk about occupying parts of a country whose government has certainly not been hostile to us.

**VAN SUSTEREN:** In terms of the meeting that was held at the Pentagon — you were one of the participants, is that right, sir?

**KISSINGER:** Yes, but I agree with Secretary Rumsfeld. It's inappropriate to talk about the meeting. And Secretary Rumsfeld has correctly described it. It was a briefing by an outsider, by a researcher at the Rand Corporation, and nobody interpreted this as the views of the Defense Department. And what one individual said at the meeting is something that should not be publicly discussed. But I will be glad to tell you what I think in general.

**VAN SUSTEREN:** Right. And what is your thought, your sort of reaction? At least, that's what's reported in "The Washington Post" is that this person, this outsider, as you describe him, said that Saudi Arabia is our enemy. Your thoughts on that?

**KISSINGER:** I think that is a vast exaggeration, which is ascribing to the whole — to the Saudi government what some Saudi citizens have done. We should make every effort, and we are making every effort, to cut off the flow of funds from Saudi Arabia into organizations that wind up to be terrorist or supportive of terrorists.

And certainly, the Saudis have not done as much as they could do. And for a period, they encouraged the spread of these religious schools, which became hotbeds of these terrorist movements. So they, at the beginning, probably didn't know that that was happening.

All of that is correct. But the Saudi government has been, on the whole, cooperative with the United States. And before we talk rashly about overthrowing them, we ought to realize that that would probably bring to power the very people that are now doing these things illegally. And we should remember what happened in Iran, where, under American urging, a government was overthrown, and the result has been 25 years of terrorism out of there.

**VAN SUSTEREN:** Sir, let me switch gears for a second to Iraq. Iraqi foreign minister has been quoted as saying at a meeting today that Baghdad will, quote, "chop off the head of any aggressor who threatens Iraqi soil." I assume that is directed at us, at the United States. Your

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reaction to that comment?

KISSINGER: The basic problem that is posed by Iraq is that here is an authoritarian ruler without any domestic restraint on him, who has already used chemical weapons against his own people and against neighboring countries, who is building up stockpiles of biological weapons, chemical weapons, and is working on nuclear weapons. And in this terrorist world which we have been talking about, to leave him in a position where these weapons can be spread into those hands is extremely dangerous. And the president and secretary of state have called attention to that danger, and I don't consider what America might do to forestall this danger an act of aggression. I think it would be an act of self-defense.

VAN SUSTEREN: If you were secretary of state today, advising the president, what would you advise, in terms of Iraq?

KISSINGER: If I were advising the president, I would support the statements that he has been making, and I would say that if we cannot get an air-tight system that does away with these weapons of mass destruction, which is required by the agreement they made when they ended the Gulf war, that we should then consider other actions, including military actions.

VAN SUSTEREN: All right, Dr. Kissinger, always nice to hear you.
Thank you for joining me this evening.

KISSINGER: Pleasure to be on.

Click to order the entire transcript of the August 6 edition of On the Record.

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8/22/2002