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K: That's how they did it.

R: oh my

K: Haig found it out. He picked up a phone and heard me on it.

R: You're kidding. It was still going then.

K: Well, yeah, he didn't know it was there.

R: I'll be god damned. Did they do your home too.

ll

K: That I haven't figured out yet. I'm checking on it. This is strictly for you.

R: Oh don't worry. Of course there must be bugs somewhere.

K: No, not anymore. I don't know who would do it for him now.

R: Alright Henry. Nice to talk to you. Bye bye.

TELCORN
Dean Rusk/HAK

September 4, 1973/5:10 p.m.

k; Hello

R: I'm awfully sorry that I had to tell one of your colleagues that I just couldn't get up there this week. I'm not able to travel yet. I'm still recuperating from this operation. It'll take a little time yet. There are three things I'm ~~MAX~~ sure that are on your own checklist. I thought I'd mention the possible things that might come up at the confirmation. I suppose you've already talked to Senator Fullbright and Senator Aiken about your personal financial situation. Some member of the Committee might ask you a question having to do with a possible conflict of interest and it wouldn't be a bad idea for you to be able to say at that point well I've gone over my situation in some detail with the Chairman and Senator Aiken.

K: Right. I have not discussed it with them.

R: Well, it's a pretty good idea because something could come up in a public hearing all of sudden like a summer storm and it's a good thing to deal with that ahead of time if you can.

K: Good point.

R: Secondly, on another item, here I'm thinking about somebody like Chase, may try to extract some constitutional commitments from you and I suppost, I'm sure you've been thinking about that a little bit. You know, get some pledgees about what attitude you would take on this, that or the other kind of matter.

K: I don't think I should answer that.

R: well, I think its pretty tricky business because in the first place it's... you work for the President the first instance and you can't go up there and ammend the Constitution by the testimony in a confirmation hearing and you will probably want to think about how you'll actually respond in terms of saying that you would need the advise of the law offices of the Executive Branch and would need to consult the President on his views on matters of that sort. But that your hope is that you would be able to work with the Committee and the Congress in such a way as to avoid Constitutional issues through cooperation between the two branches you know, something of that sort but I'm just a little, I've been up there for example in my day where one or another Senator would try to deal with a Constitutional point which is really beyond the reach of the Secretary of State to deal with.

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- 2 -

And I remember one occasion that in one of these hearings that the Constitution will be the same tomorrow as it was yesterday and that it won't be affected by anything I say here today.
Well, that's not the most tactful way to put it in a confirmation hearing but I'm sure you'll want to give a little thought to that.
Then a third point that you might want to give some thought to after you're confirmed and that is you might want to in a very informal basis to draw together 2 or 3 of the really top people in the foreign service and whom you have complete confidence and tell him you want to talk over with them some of the talents at the most senior grades of the foreign service and there are lots of people out tucked away in such places as members of facilities, war colleges and...

K: That I'm already doing.

R: Strike commands and all that kind of thing and my guess is that there's some sleepers there that have been shunted aside for one reason or another that you might want to give some thought to.

K: That I'm already in the process of doing.

R: I mean people like diplomats in residence and things of that sort because I think you'll be able to get the loyalty and help of the foreign service but its imporatnt for you to think of that as a two way proposition. I mean you'll have their loyalty to the extent that you give them yours.

K: Absolutely.

R: From what I've heard I think you're off to a good start on that.

K: Well, I'm glad you think this.

R: I just wanted to mention that your personal financial situation when I went up there for my hearing I had a talk with Fulbright and then Senator Wiley who was a Senior Republican and it turned out to be very useful that I had done that. Of course my situation was very simple. I didn't hold a lot of stocks and bonds and things of that sort.

K: I don't own anything... well, whatever little I own I've had in a blind trust since 1969 so I have no idea.

R: I think its very useful for you to clear that point with Fulbright and Aiken so that they can reinforce anything you say about having made

a full disclosure to them.

K: Good. may ... I appreciate that very much.

R: I'll drop you a note one of these days about these other things but
can

K: I'd appreciate it very much and when you come up here.

R: Well, it'll probably be another couple of weeks yet.

K: Well, as soon as you can will you let me know. !

R: I sure will Henry. and all the best to you.

K: Thank you Dean.

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TELCON
Mrs. Peterson/HAK

September 4, 1973/5:40 p.m.

K: Hello.

P: Henry.

K: Yes.

P: Sally, how are you?

K: I'm here with your husband.

P: I know you are. Discussing heavy matters of state. What's happened to you tonight.

K: I have to prepare my testimony. I'm going absolutely crazy.

P: Yeah.

K: I might drop by late.

P: I see. Alright. Shall I tell that to Margo. But not to hound me for dinner I just won't get out of here for. Do you testify this week sometime?

K: I have to testify Friday and then I have to call on all these bloody Senators ahead of time.

P: Oh yeah. Oh sure.

K: And then I have to do the transition.

P: He was assuming the President found out you were coming and told you not to.

K: Oh God. No, no, no. I'll call her.

P: I'll call her right now.

K: God there is nobody who. let her ask me again and she'll find me coming but I have to testify Friday morning at 10:00. I haven't prepared my statement. I haven't gone over the questions and answers. And I'm spending all day meeting Senators.

P: Well, I'll tell her that, she'll feel better.

TELCONE
Fred Buzhardt/HAK

September 4, 1973/Unknown (approximately 6:45)

K: Hello Fred.

B: Yes, Henry, how you doing?

K: Well, I'm try'ing to get my testimony together. For my own information, when did this Pursely, Peterson and Sullivan thing happen. Have you been able to find it out.

BV: Pursely, hold it just a second, yeah. I've got it now Henry. They were all beyond your date.

K: They were beyond my date.

B: Yeah. Hold on, I'm pretty sure. No, Pursely interestingly was both ways. They picked up 14 days in the earlyperiod, at the very beginning

K: Oh really.

B: Yeah, and then dropped it. Then they picked up again, several of them picked up. They were reinstituted or picked up new people when the switch came in May of 70 and they picked up on him again them, on a repeat. They picked him up in Michigan apparent on an access basis and ran 14 days in May 69, then they dropped it off and they didn't pick up again until May of 70.

K: Do you have a record. Can you tell who requested these things.

B: No, there is no way on earth to tell who requested them. None of the records reflect that Henry.

K: Well then how for example could there by sources that say Kissinger had to know about McLean and these when I didn't even know their names.

B: I don't think you could have known about McLean because he was put on while you were getting information but I found nothing in the letters to indicate on.

K: Well, hell, the first time I ever heard...

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B: He wasn't even on while you were getting reports. McLean was not on. While you were getting the reports.

K: Nor were Sullivan and Peterson.

B: Let me check Sullivan, I haven't checked him. That's correct. Sullivan came on after you were there, McLean, Peterson, they were all after you were.

K: Because I don't think I want to get into any of this on my testimony.

B: Yeah, I don't either. Not on individual names but if you put in there the number, you could not have known.

K: But the point is this, is it not. I want to put in my own thinking. They were names that I couldn't have known about because I never got reports during the period I was getting reports.

B: That is correct.

K: And secondly, there is no way I could have known who was on the list after I was dropped off because I wasn't getting any reports.

B: That is correct.

K: And that I can say.

B: That you can say.

K: And without going into the names. OK. Well, that's what I want to check. OK.

B: Right. And we'll rework that thing today Henry to reflect the prior meeting.

K: Thanks.

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TELCOM

Ray Price/HAK

September 4, 1973/7:00

K: Ray.

P: Yes sir.

K: I need some of your great eloquence. My confirmation hearings. I've drafted...I don't know anymore whether its my draft that I have...last night I had drafted something, the substance of which was alright but it doesn't really soar yet and I was wondering whether you'd like to try one of you Stevensonian things which you never got a chance to express it

P: When is it?

K: Well, its Friday morning.

P: OK. I've got another project I'm kind of tied up with but if I could maybe take it and see if I could help but you may want somebody who could spend more time on it but I'll be glad to take it and see if I can come up with any thoughts for it and so on.

K: Well, I don't really think you have anyone in your shop that can do what I want except you. I don't think the others will understand it but I would like to do is strike at conciliatory without being obsequious and to focus it on the future and on beyond our term in office and then can relate to the importance of being institutionalisation post within the Department and for the Congress. But I don't want to do that as a ________ political science lecture.

P: OK. Do you have anything I could...

K: I have a draft which unless Winston has made it to soft. No this looks like more or less what I had yesterday. Can you pick it up tonight?

P: Why don't I come over right now.

K: When can you have it back to me.

P: Let me take a look. My problem is I'm working on a speech for the President at the same time. This is a domestic policy one. Radio speech. I've got a very tight deadline on that, but if I can pick it up and take a look..

K: If I could have it tomorrow evening. I'm so scheduled that I won't get it on to anything until tomorrow night and then I could rework it. I'm going to rework this tonight but that doesn't make any difference because I'm not going to change the structure of it.

P: Why don't I. I really am on a tight deadline on the other one and I have to have the draft by Thursday. Why don't I take it and see if there is something I can ... sort of quickly... and see what I can do on it this evening.

K: I'd appreciate it very much.

P: OK. I'll stop over and pick it up now.

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TELCOM

Judge Baumley/HAK

September 4, 1973/7:35 p.m.

K: Hello.

B: Hello Dr.

K: How are you?

B: Fine, fine.

K: I take it you just talked to Carl Maw.

B: Yeah.

K: Would you - I think. His idea was, I don't know whether that fits into your schedule whether you might be willing to come down tomorrow at some point.

B: Sure. Anytime.

K: And go over some of these materials with me.

B: Have you got the material?

K: I've got the material and I'm unbelievably busy but I have a Deputy who can explain it to you and then after you've studied it, you and I could meet.

B: Sure.

K: Would that be convenient.

B: Sure. I'll come down early in the morning.

K: OK

B: And I'll come to your office and ask for whom?

K: Come to my office. I don't know what in God's name don't come before 9:30 because.

B: I can't make it before then.

K: OK. Anytime after 10:00 and ask for General Scowcroft, he's my Deputy, he'll have all the material and he can explain some of it to you.

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TELCOM

Ambassador David Bruce/HAK

September 5, 1973/12:40 p.m.

B: Hello Henry, how are you?

K: OK.

B: I wrote you quite a long memorandum on the plane which I sent down to Brent this morning that I thought I'd pass on to you about some personalities and things.

K: He just handed it to me.

B: Basically worthless but anyhow, you might as well have it.

K: No its certainly not going to be worthless. Would you...I know you are having lunch with Joan Bradon. . . to my enormous distress.

B: Isn't it splendid. She said you had dumped her. She called me up this morning and said Henry got out lunching with me today.

K: I dumped her after she told me she wanted to have lunch...indicated her preference for you.

B: I don't believe it.

K: It is painfully, unbearably true.

B: Well I'm going to tell her that's the ______ thing I ever heard of.

K: Well she told me you were in town only for one day and.... her

B: That little minx. Say by the way, why don't you stop/gallivanting all over the world and putting her to work in something like cultural affairs in State Department later on.

K: I will do that.

B: I think she'd be damn good.

K: I wanted to ask you on that cultural affairs post. What do you think of Tom Hoving.

B: Tom Hoving. Too much of a crowd because of all this row in New York. He's a real activist though. If I were doing anything in that job I think I would consult your friends, I think I'd consult Nelson himself.

- 2 -

K: That's where the name came from.

B: It did?

K: Yeah.

B: Oh my gosh.

K: But I'm afraid he may want to get rid of him at the Metropolitan Museum.

B: Well I said this because Charlie Rosan, who is our present immediate donner is determined to get rid of him. He's on the executive committee and I just don't like the idea of all that publicity.

K: Do you think I should offer him chief of protocol

B: No I think he'd be wonderful.

K: That was another thought I had.

B: I think he would be wonderful at it.

K: You think he might consider it.

B: I don't see why he wouldn't because I think he's on the skids at the Metropolitan.

K: That's the impression Nelson left.

B: I don't think under the very circumstances, it is so good to have him around.

K: You think Ripley would be the best.

B: I think Ripley is a tornado you know. He is terribly good. he rubs alotted of people the wrong way but he has action.

K: Well, what I need is action and to get the idea implemented you know to move into that area of the British Council ________...

B: Well, I think he would be very good at that and don't forget also one thing in the Smithsonian he was a world's famous ornithologist.

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K: Well, he's the best you can think of.

B: Yes, on the all around thing because he's had experience in... which is absolutely necessary not only in the fields of art but also in government.

K: Well, actually Nelson recommended Holving for the protocol job.

B: Oh, I think he'd be good.

K: I will raise that. Have you... I haven't had a chance to read your memo yet because I've been all over the place. Would you like to stop in here after lunch for 15 minutes.

B: I'd love to but will you be too busy.

K: No, I think between 2:30 and 3:00 I could be free.

B: OK, I'll be there, how do you say, 2:30 or 2:45?

K: Let's say around 2:30 give or take a few minutes.

B: I'll be there.

K: And David one other thing. Your friend Symington tells me that you are the only man he takes seriously.

B: Who says that.

K: Symington.

B: Oh, that's old schoolmate stuff.

K: And he is on a rampage that I should give up my assistant position -- in fact he's the only one that is giving me trouble on that committee.

B: Yeah, I thought he would. He's awfully cranky you know.

K: Now, you know that I need this assistant position in order to be effective in the interdepartment. and that it isn't a way of downgrading the Dept. and I wondered whether you would consider calling him and talking to him about this or whether you think.

B: I'd be glad to but I think it would do you harm.

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K: You do?

B: Yes I do.

K: XXX OK.

B: That's the way he reacts and I do know him intimately but in that I can only say I think he would put his back up because he'd think I'd been talking to you about it.

K: Well, I'll abide by your judgment.

B: His bark is much worse than his bite.

K: Actually he's a friend of mine.

B: I know he is but you can't stop him from a thing like that.

K: I'm sure he's going to vote for it.

B: Yeah he will. No the thing to do is treat him with politeness and then he tries to make the public images very tough. He is kind of tough and cranky at times.

K: He's more cranky than tough.

B: If you try to call him off of anything then you've lost. I wouldn't do it with him.

K: OK. Good.

B: Listen I talked to Brent. I'll see you at 2:30 about one thing which really disturbs me and you shouldn't be involved in such stuff but I really think there is something terrible about poor old Sy ______ visa.

KXEXXEXXEX X cancelling

K: I agree with you.

B: I wonder if we couldn't get the mission here to restore it.

K: Well, I'll be glad to call them.

B: I think its worth doing because now its a family at work on him again and its very bad and he is the only one of the ______ I've got any use for.

TELCOM

Len Garmet/HAK

September 5, 1973/1:00 p.m.

G: Henry, these must be very gratifying days for you.

K: Yeah, they're very good.

G: Confusing but delightful. I'm calling you about 2 or 3 very quick points. Max Fisk called, he heard from Dobrynin just before he went to England and it had to do with a list of 300 remember he requested.

K: Yeah.

G: He asked me to ask you not to make it public, I suppose he wants to be involved in it somehow when he gets back.

K: I won't make it public.

G: I said I'll tell Henry that. Secondly, well had some very large proposals with respect to energy policy that he asked me to speak to you about. This is the full extent of my speaking to you about it. He has discussed it with John Love and with John Connelly and he has something of a thought which is Schlesinger's community can be very helpful in support of the President's energy program because of their interest in having a self-sufficient ability in this country. For reasons having to do with the Middle East and he would like to be active in that and I said I would tell you about it and I would help him with his efforts here. I've now discharged my responsibility to Max Fisher and now I'm going to lunch.

K: OK.

G: Anything I can do to help you let me know please.

K: OK. Thanks bye.

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TELCON

Dean Rusk/HAK

9/5/73 - 4:05 pm

K: Hello?

R: Henry!

K: Dean, how are you?

R: I hate to be a nuisance to you but I......

K: You couldn't be a nuisance to me.

R: You're very much on my mind these days, and I want this thing to go smoothly. Now let me just mention two points. If they get to horsing around too much about the constitutional issues you might find some way to remind them that the great executive departments of the government operate under law. The statutes under which the Department of State operates are very extensive indeed. The Department is organized by the Congress. It is staffed by provisions made by the Congress. The Foreign Service, the Civil Service operate under legislation. There is a very extraordinary number of statutes which control the Department of State ranging from trade to extradition and all the rest of it and so I don't think you need to be worried about pointing out that the Congress plays an enormous role the activities of any of the great executive departments of government. I don't know whether you ever had a chance to look at it but my guess is if you put all the statutes governing the Department of State on one shelf you have at least a 5-foot shelf of statutes there and this question of what has Congress thought about it is a major question before anybody in the State Department can move an inch because of that statutory control of so much the Department of State is able to do under the law. So I just mention that because I am not sure you had a chance to get a feel of a comprehensive character of the statutory regulations under which the Department operates and the Secretary of State operates.

K: Right.

R: So that's one point.

K: That's a very good point.

R: Another thing, somebody like Case may get at you on this executive agreement business.

K: Yes.

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-2-

R: Beg pardon?

K: He already has - when I called on him.

R: Oh, he did? Well, bear in mind that there are at least three major categories of executive agreements. First, a very large number of agreements that are authorized in advance by statutes by acts of Congress, such as the trade agreements under such legislation as the Trade Expansion Act of 1962. Then there is a second category of executive agreements which would have no effect whatever unless the Congress provides the supporting legislation whether by authorization, appropriations or both. For example, on such things as working out our relations along the boundaries with Canada and Mexico. Most of those.. a large number of executive agreements that require action by the Congress. Then there is a third category which is where a legitimate difference of view might occur and that is executive agreements which have not been previously authorized and which do not, in themselves, require any follow-up action by the Congress. And that range of executive agreements is fairly limited in number and character so that I would hope that you wouldn't find that Case would push you around too hard on a subject like that. And because there is a lot more cooperation between the Congress and the executive on what are called executive agreements than people give credit for these days.

K: Right. That's another very good point.

R: Have you had a couple of close friends sit down with you and play the role of the sons of bitches and ask you all the tough and mean questions that you just could get? I don't think these will be aimed at you but some of them could take a whack at the Administration through you on an occasion like this.

K: I've got one session this evening and I'll have another group tomorrow afternoon.

R: O.K. because my experience with those fellows has been that if you sit down ahead of time and think of all the dirty questions that they could ask you, you'll find that they only ask you about 10% of those that they could think up yourself. (laughter)

K: Well, that's comforting. I saw Symington today and I think he can think of a day's worth of dirty questions all by himself.

R: My hunch is, Henry, that there is not going to be any problem as far as confirmation is concerned, but in the process some of them may take some side-swipes at you, I presume some of their own pet peeves such as Case on the executive agreements and maybe somebody else trying

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to get back at your boss in one way or another.

K: Right.

R: Now I suppose you already got yourself geared up to what you are going to say about any questions that might come up about wiretapping colleagues and that sort of thing.

K: Well, all I can do is tell the truth.

R: Yes, well, good luck!

K: Many thanks, Dean, and...

R: If it lasts more than two or three days if there is anybody up there on the Committee you think I could talk to myself in any way it would be helpful, don't hesitate to call me.

K: Well, you know them and you should feel free to get in touch with any of them.....

R: Well, I know that Gale McGee and George Aiken and John Sparkman, there will be a lot of them that will be alright, but there are three or four sob's up there.

K: They're probably the ones that are after you, too.

R: Oh, sure, sure. O. K., my friend, good luck.

K: I look forward to seeing you soon.

R: O. K., thank you.

K: Bye!

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TELCORN
Senator Humphrey/Mr. Kissinger

6:34 p.m., September 5, 1973

H: Henry.

K: Hubert, how are you?

H: Well, I'm just fine. I didn't take the time to bring you on over here, I figured you didn't need to talk to me.

K: No, I understood that but John Scali was in here and told me about his conversation with you.

H: Yeah, I had John over here.

K: And he said that if we played the same games we did last year, you'd get mad.

H: (laughter) Well, I sure as hell would.

K: And since I haven't ever seen you really mad, I'm trying hard to avoid that.

H: (laughter) You may not think I can get that way.

K: No, ...... I don't really think you can. But what I would like to say to you is this, I will be glad to testify that the Administration is in favor of repeal of the Byrd Amendment.

H: Fine.

K: Then if anyone plays games, you should know it's without my knowledge and authority. You tell me that games are being played and I'll stop it.

H: Well, I know you would. Let me just say this, I got this new responsibility as Chairman of this Subcommittee and you know McGee's position on this.

K: Yes, and I have already told him that we support repeal.

H: Fine. Well, no, your word is as good as a block of gold as far as I'm concerned.

K: Well, you know there will be conflicting political pressures on that . . .

H: Oh, I understand that very well and I don't consider this the major issue in the world but it's one that we ought to tear up I believe.

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K: I agree with you and we will support repeal.

H: Good.

K: I can't guarantee you that some eager beaver won't start running loose and if you tell me he is, I'll stop him.

H: Mighty quick. I sure will.

K: (Laughter) That's all I can really say.

H: That's good. I just had Admiral Zumwalt in here. He was kind enough to pay us a call. He was in on the Trident business here and had quite a talk about it and I told him some of our - frankly some of the political problems that we face on the Defense budget. You know I want to be responsible about it and not go hog wild.

K: Actually on the Trident, and this isn't what I'm calling you about, when do you have to make your decision on that?

H: I don't suppose that'll be right away because the Bill isn't ready out of Committee yet. It's the Authorization Bill and Defense Procurement. use

K: Because frankly, it may be that we can't agree that in SALT if you were going to stretch it out, but I wanted to see how that jells with Dobrynin first and then I would tell you informally.

H: I think it would be good for you to give it a good hard look.

K: Right.

H: Because if a close vote appears, 8 to 7 in the Committee and you got a most peculiar alignment of political issues on both sides. It's no ideology but I think it's something that kind of necessitates kind of close attention.

K: Right.

H: All right, anything else.

K: No, that was all. I'll see you Friday.

H: Yes, we look forward to seeing you Friday. By the way the President's press conference on TV I think is helpful to him. It's my judgment that as long as he's on there commanding the news he's in better shape, I must as a Democrat, one who hasn't agreed with his economic policies, I don't mind taking issue with him on some of the issues.

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3

K: Right.

H: But I think from the public's point of view, Henry, that this is helpful to him now.

K: Well, this - you know the destruction of authority that was going on for a while can't be helpful to the country.

H: No, it cannot and I like to see him lead. It isn't a matter of whether or not everybody says 'yes, I agree' it's a matter that the President ought to lead and not just sit back and let them clobber him.

K: Exactly.

H: And I don't intend to call him up or anything like that because if I did, I'd have to say 'Mr. President, I can't agree with some of your economic policies,' but be that as it may, I think it is important for him to be out there in front, it's not necessary to agree.

K: May I tell him what you said?

H: Absolutely. And I really feel that way. In fact if I was his public relations man, I talked to one of his close personal friends here a couple of weeks ago over a dinner and I told him just this; I said, "My god, the man has just got to take on these people. You know, when the testimony is coming before the Committee, that's the news." Or a newsman asks a question of the President in his press conference, it's what the President says that's the news. And if he just keeps at it and moves on the Congressional front he's going to be re-established in his demands around here." I hope and pray to God that he will start calling in these leaders in Congress and I don't mean just the top three or four; I mean these Committee chairmen, ranking Republican members and some of these Subcommittee people. He doesn't need to break out of protocol, I mean, just go through the system. If he does that and in about one month's time he'll be back in charge. I really believe it. And I want him to be back in charge. Hell, I'd prefer to fight him on something else besides all this other junk that's going on.

K: Well, you know once we can restore debate to the normal issues the country can't lose.

H: Exactly.

K: When the whole authority gets shaken we're in trouble.

H: Absolutely and we can't afford to have that happen. My god, we've

4

H:(con't) got delicate negotiations coming up. We've got an economy that could get out of hand, and yet it's in pretty good shape and we got a chance to pull this country together, and I just - when you talk to him just tell him that despite Humphrey's disagreement on the rate of inflation or what he's done on this or that, that's immaterial. The thing that I want him to do is what he's doing. It's tough for him to face them because the press only wants to ask questions about San Clemente and Watergate, I understand. But I'm here to tell you that that's a helluva lot different than having a man just not responding because what he says today is in the press, it's in the news. What he says will make the news and I'm for him saying it.

K: Well, I'm glad and I remember a number of occasions when you came in when you were out of office when it meant an enormous amount emotionally.

H: Well, I tell you I really want him to feel secure. God dammit, Henry, I'm a Democrat, but I'm not only a Democrat, I'm a citizen and I'm not trying to be sentimental, I just know that we got to make this country work and he's going to be there for three years, what the hell, I want to see him be successful. He's not going to run again. As far as I'm concerned his popularity can be 95%. The main thing is that I want him just to be President and the more that he's President, the better I like it.

K: Well, I appreciate this very much. I look forward to working with you, Hubert. I mean that sincerely.

H: It'll be a pleasure to work with you too. God bless you.

K: Thank you. Bye. Bye.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E.0.12958
By A. NARA Date 5/9/09

TELCONE

Marvin Kalb/Kissinger
approx. 7 p.m. - 9/5/73

MK: He said that you came up to the Hill to confer with these fellows and all. Looked very good, it's a nice piece.

HK: Is it all right?

MK: Yeh. You'll see it on the news at 7. Listen I wanted to

HK: My question is, what is the commentary?

MK: The commentary's brilliant. Listen, we want very much for you to consider favorably an August 27 letter asking you to be our guest on September 16 on *Face the Nation*. We have a sense that you're going to be confirmed, if everything I hear is correct. They're starting a whole new series of *Face the Nation* programs on that day that are going to run full page ads in the *New York Times* and the *Washington Post* and they want to do that very much with you. I think it would be terrific and a wonderful way of launching

HK: If I'm confirmed and sworn in by then, I can consider it. I suppose I'll have a feel for that after the first day's hearings.

MK: Honestly, I've talked to just about every Senator on the Committee and they're just whisking the whole thing right through.

HK: You think?

MK: Oh yeh. As a matter of fact one of the men you saw today told me that it's going to be a question of keeping the dignity of the Committee by perhaps having you stay on or having you come back rather on Monday.

HK: That's fine with me.

MK: Yeh, but I think it's very much the idea that they want to move you right through with a lot of enthusiasm, but it wouldn't look right, they can't do that. And what about the Committee and we have a sense and an obligation - this doesn't happen too often, etc. So we would really love to have you on *Face* - that would be just

HK: Why don't we talk on Monday. By the end of the day on Monday we should know - if your guess is right - where we stand with the Committee

By: NARA Date: 6/9/69
DECLASSIFIED
Authority: E012958

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E 0.12958
By NARA Date 6/9/67

MK: And two, when the President mentioned about China, is that more or less laid on, Henry?

HK: No. Well, it is fixed that I will go in October but it is not fixed on what day.

MK: Will you be spending a great deal of time at the UN, I hope not.

HK: Why? Oh, you have to cover me.

MK: No, I'd be delighted to cover you; that's not the problem, it's just that I think there are more important thing for you to do than the usual two week nonsense.

HK: No, I'll spend three days one week and two days the next week.

MK: I see, I see.

HK: I won't spend two whole weeks there.

MK: I mean it would be absolute madness for you to get into that.

HK: No, three days one week and two days the next.

MK: Right.

HK: This is all background.

MK: I understand. Finally, I just want to get a feel, in your judgment, as to what it is that the President was saying about Middle East policy today. I had a sense that the words that he used "both sides are at fault, both sides need to start negotiating, we're not pro-Israel, we're not pro-Arab." Joe Sisco has said that before but I don't remember the President saying it before and I was just wondering if this represents any

HK: I don't want to speculate about that until I'm confirmed.

MK: Do you have a sense that there's been any shift in nuance there? I did but maybe I'm wrong.

HK: Maybe for the President but not for our policy. I mean in terms of Presidential expression.

MK: I've heard the words before but I've never heard him say it. I was just kind of curious.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E0.12958
By A6 NARA Date 5/9/09

HK: I don't think there's a real change in policy.

MK: Henry, whenever you have time I'd love to talk to you about your new assignment.

HK: Let's wait until after the hearings. Quite frankly right now I'm going crazy going ready for it.

MK: You know it's very difficult for us - this is just en passant - and then maybe I shouldn't even mention it, but the guys over at the State Department are afraid to say anything about your comings and goings. The people over at the White House say you wanted to go to the State Department and there isn't anybody - I feel very bad about disturbing you.

HK: No, Marvin, that's a good point. I will get State to put out every day what I'm doing, whom I'm seeing.

MK: The other day some reporter said, "Well, Kissinger said it's going to be a new open administration. What kind of nonsense is this?"

HK: Well, it will be after I'm there.

MK: And the spokesman said, "I can't say anything about it because of the White House." And your guys at the White House say you go to the State Department and you're trapped.

HK: Well, it's going to be open some ways - you just have to find the place.

MK: (Laugs) I'll tell you one thing. I have always had very good luck in getting through to you and I hope that that will continue later too.

HK: You can count on it. We're having dinner on

MK: On Wednesday. Look forward to it.

HK: Look forward to it.

MK: Ok, sir. Bye.

TELCON

Attorney General Richardson/Mr. Kissinger

8:37 p.m., September 5, 1973

R: Hello, Henry.

K: How are you?

R: Okay. How are you?

K: Okay.

R: Henry, I just got word a few minutes ago that the Senate Foreign Relations Committee has transmitted to us a demand for the FBI report on those 17 taps.

K: Um-humm.

R: It was a request apparently that went previously to Harlow and was turned down by him and we'll turn it down also. It's disturbing to know that they are aware of its existence. This is the summary report that you now have a copy of.

K: Which incidentally I consider inaccurate.

R: Oh. Is there any way you can help --

K: But I can't prove that. You know, it's obviously written by Hoover to minimize his own role.

R: Well, the Divisional Memorandum you mean?

K: Yeah.

R: Well, I was thinking of the Summary Report. I was thinking that's the one they mean. In any event, I think the situation does warrant my getting together with you personally to talk about the tactics of handling that problem. Do you have any time tomorrow when we could that?

K: I have an appointment at -- Well, we could do it at -- I have a breakfast but I'll have to change it. Can you do it at 8:00?

R: Yeah.

K: It's almost the only time I have.

R: Yeah, we could do that. And I guess we could do it without anybody else involved. What we're talking about mainly is --

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E.0.12958
By: NARA Dic: 5/9/09

2

K: The only thing is --

R: ... tactics in the handling of questions. I'm concerned about the overall line that you take and how it relates to the lawsuit and how to minimize problems.

K: Well, it's obvious to me now that there's somebody either in Justice or the FBI who is deliberately after me on this. I mean, it has to be because how would -- I mean, it can't be an old -- It can't be the man you discharged because he wouldn't know there is such a report.

R: No, no, it could be any -- Well, I don't know what the explanation is. Henry, there's the problem of the handling of the situation is one that just simply points out what had existed anyway. Do you want to make it 8 o'clock?

K: Yeah.

R: Okay. I'll come to your office.

K: Okay.

R: Fine. Thank you.

wgh

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E012958

By: NARA Date 5/9/09

TELCONE

Dave Abshire/HAK

September 6, 1973/9:52 a.m.

K: Hello

A: Yes Henry

K: Dave, how are you?

A: Wonderful.

K: Dave, I'd like to meet with you after I'm confirmed but before
then I was wondering everyone says the best Congressional
Liaison man was Dave Abshire and that's also my judgment.

A: I couldn't be complemented more highly it coming from you.

K: They also say that the present one is not the best one they've
ever had to put it mildly and I don't ask you to comment on that
but supposing I wanted to make a change. Could you make some
suggestions to me.

A: I certainly could Henry.

K: Of course I'd be delighted to get you back but I suppose that's
hopeless.

A: Yes, I think three years. I was in that position for three years
Henry and I think that's plenty. (laughter)

K: (laughter) Of course I've been in this position for 4 1/2 years
that's not the most persuasive argument. . . I've ever heard.

A: I know that but I think that I could.....

K: Are you available for any other position. I don't have any at
mind at this moment but I just wanted to know what your general
status is.

A: Henry, it would be very difficult for me to leave the Center at this
point. I have many development plans. There might be a possibility
if you were interested next year but I feel that I've got to be here
for a year or a year and a half to ....

UNCLASSIFIED

- 2 -

K: I've recommended you for so many other positions that we'll never get you. But Dave could you, within the next 24 or 48 hours send me a list of people and I don't give a damn whether they are Republicans or Democrats. In fact in many ways a Democrat would have a lot to recommend him but you know what I want. Somebody who exudes integrity who can deal with these Congressman, who has a little compassion and above all he's got brains.

A: That's right.

K: But you know what the job requires.

A: I certainly do Henry and I....

Congressmen and Senators on

K: And I frankly... they're all trying to push me ~~that have been~~ defeated in elections. I don't think that's right. First of all they are egomaniacs and they're going to operate on their own, second they may operate... create a little click over there on the Hill rather than work for me and you know, unless he's a really superior person I'd rather not do that.

A: Well, then you've got another problem on a Congressman or a former Senator. The Congressman does not work particularly well with the Senators and vice versa. There is a lot of rivalry there. Now I had mentioned to John Leahman the possibility of Stan Kimit.

K: Yeah, he's turned it down.

A: He's turned it down.

K: He'd be ideal.

A: Yes he would. He's a person of integrity and judgment.

K: I don't know whether I can go back to him. No, but he's exactly the man I want.

A: Well that's a shame. Let me go to work on it Henry and I will get you an list and then after you are confirmed I'd be very happy to get together at your convenience and give you some further thoughts in general on the Department and a little bit on public support for what you are trying to do.

DECEIVED

AUG 27 1965 9:01

BY: D. J. B. D.

TELCOM

Ambassador Ingersoll/HAK

September 6, 1973/9:58 a.m.

TELCOM

K: Hello.

Ingersoll: Morning Henry.

K: How are you Bob?

I: Have you got 5 or 10 minutes that I could come and see you?

K: Only if your answer is yes.

I: Oh, come on.

K: Yeah. When do you want to do it.

I: Anytime.

K: About 2:30?

I: All right I'll be there. I'll see you then.

K: Good. But you want to talk to a number of other people first
I've talked to Bob McNamara this morning and he feels even
more strongly than I do about the correctness of my proposal.

I: I'll call him right a way. Right Henry. Bye.

K: Bye.

JUNIOR OFFICER

TELCON

Robert McNamara/Mr. Kissinger

10:40 a.m., September 6, 1973

M: Hello, Henry. Bob Ingersoll just called. He said you were going to see him this afternoon and you apparently mentioned to him --

K: Well, I told him not to make any decisions without having talked to you.

M: All right. Well, he's called me and he is coming in to see me this afternoon but it will be after he sees you. He said he just wanted to talk to me. He was opposed to going into the job. I talked to him. He's at least weakening and softened, Henry. I said to him two things, basically, and I just want you to know this: (A) I said you have to consider, Bob, the affect on your life personally; you and your wife and your children, and (B) you have to think of the national interest. Now with respect to the first point, look at Averill Harriman as an ________. Bob said he just didn't think he could work 24 hours a day, he's beyond that point in his life and it would tear his family apart and so on. And I said, look, Averill went in there and he didn't work 24 hours a day. The first thing he did was to get Bill Sullivan; that's the way Bill came on the world scene. Now you find yourself a Bill Sullivan and you don't have to work 24 hours a day. Hell, you're not over there as a duty office. That isn't what you need it for. You're needed for the wisdom, the experience, the maturity, the judgment, and the decisiveness. This is what you can contribute and you don't have to contribute it 18 or 24 hours a day.

K: And if he finds a Bill Sullivan, he's got a successor picked out.

M: Exactly, exactly. So that was the point I made. I said, Bob, I wouldn't recommend you do this if ________ I thought you were going (A) fail on the job or (B) gradually weaken and thereby fail on it by excessive pressure. Now the second point I said to Bob is -- and I'm just giving you my personal opinion and you may not even like to hear it but I don't think Nixon's worth a damn today and I don't think he's going to be worth a damn in the future unless he surrounds himself with able, independently powerful people and that's what the Kissinger move means. Now Kissinger can't do this job by himself, he's got to surround himself with able people. You're one of those and the nation needs this kind of a move today and because you can do it competently and without undue penalties to yourself and your family and because it's a high national priority, I think you've got to do it. Well, I'm just telescoping a long conversation. He didn't say yes but he sure as hell didn't say no so he's weakening a little bit.

K: Well, I think that's terrific and I absolutely -- this is the reason for doing it.

TELCONE

Len Garment/Mr. Kissinger

10:45 a.m., September 6, 1973

G: Yes, Henry.

K: I returned your call. You were stomping down my office.

G: Oh, Dinitz called me and he is going back -- and periodically, of course, I sit down and have lunch with this fellow -- and he wanted to have lunch with me. I said fine. I said . I would talk to you to see generally what --

K: When are you having lunch with him?

G: Tomorrow.

K: You better tell him as your impression and not as coming from
me --

G: Right. That's what I thought, you might use me for that purpose.

K: That they should not believe they can just stand pat forever.
And that it is essential for them to figure out something they can
do that looks like an initiative.

G: Um-humm. I think that after 4 1/2 years around here, you might
make use of a certain amount of goodwill that I've stored up with
them. I think they will believe me in these next few months if I --

K: I mean, you have to tell them that from your knowledge of the
President, of the influences on the President - I will then make the
same points separately to him.

G: Right.

K: But that's the most important thing you can get across.

G: And that involves what in one or two concrete --

K: Well, I have no concrete ideas but they cannot continue --

G: I wouldn't bind you to anything but --

K: No, no; I really have no specific idea. But it must be that in that
whole complex of issues, of frontiers, Gaza and above all
Jerusalem.

AUG 12 1973 3:56 PM
BROWN
BROWN
BROWN
BROWN
BROWN
BROWN
BROWN
BROWN

Len Garment/Mr. Kissinger

2

G: Right.

K: I mean, I have never understood why they cannot turn over the holy
places to the goddamn Arabs and one access road to it.

G: Well, I'm sure you can understand . . . . . . . . . he might disagree with --

K: I can understand it but they cannot stand -- On the other hand, you
can judge the most emotional issue to the Arabs.

G: Yeah. When is their election?

K: In October. They don't have to do it before then.

G: I understand that. In other words, in to the texture of the conversation
this is basically what he has to understand. And this is a fact, Henry.

K Look, I guarantee you that everyone who wants to knock me off is
going to use the Middle East but their choice will be between me or
Connally.

G: May I make a suggestion?

K: Yeah.

G: I don't know how long I will be around here or doing what, but in this
area I think you can use me and you can count on my discretion.

K: Of course I'll use you.

G: As well as my effectiveness, either here or going over there, and --

K: Listen, Len, I may not have shown it . . .

G: In being useful, I think I can now measure myself.

K: Look, I think you are one of the few men of integrity that was brought
. . . and how that happened, you don't know.

G: But from the standpoint of getting something done in an area that I
feel strongly about and where I think that they may be paralyzed by
their own internal . . .

K: Well, I am in no position to make a concrete proposal.

G: No, I'm not saying that.

DRAFTED 12/26/81
Autograph, E. F. B. D. 1/10/81
Best Mkt. Date 1/10/81

Len Garment/Mr. Kissinger

2

K: No, I don't have one.

G: Beyond tomorrow's lunch but in the next several months.
have

K: You see, what I desperately attempted to avoid is to get myself into a position of making a proposal. That's why I would like them to make one.

G: Um-humm. And that you feel is what they must begin to think about.

K: Look, I have gotten them -- I have bought them, as he will know better than I, over two years. In September -- In December 71 I told them I would get them six months. I've gotten them nearly two years.

G: Um-humm.

K: But I can't -- And now they think I can keep this up forever and that just isn't possible.

G: What does that mean, not keeping it up forever?

K: Not keeping it up forever, that is that the President will sooner or later make a major U. S. initiative. And then we're going to have a the goddamnest situation unless they do something.

G: Um-humm. Okay.

K: Okay.

G: That's basically what I wanted to talk to you about.

K: For your information, he went far beyond what I recommended to him yesterday at his press conference.

G: In his --

K: When he said we will make a major initiative. I think it's stupid.

G: It's not the time for anything of that sort.

K: Well, above all, if you tell the Arabs you'll make an initiative, I would like to sell the initiative to the Arabs in return for telling the Arabs what I've told you to tell the Israelis.

G: Yes, yes.

CLASSIFIED

Autumn 2021
Dated: 01/01/21

Len Garment/Mr. Kissinger

4

K: I plan to tell the Arabs if you want our help, you better change your position.

G: Well, I suppose Dinitz -- he hasn't talked to you yet?

K: No, but he will. Oh, he has plenty of counterarguments.

G: But he will also want to know -- I'm sure I'll hear all the counter-arguments, he's very talkative and able -- he will want to know what significance is to be associated with the Presidential remarks.

K: It's a good reflection of his mood.

G: Of his mood.

K: Not necessarily yet of our policy.

G: Okay. Good, Henry.

K: Good.

G: Bye.

K: Bye.

wgh

10/10/75
856 210F
UNIVERSITY
JONES

TELCORN

Mr. Kissinger/Rollie Evans

11:15 a.m. 9/6/73

RE: Henry, I checked with Pete to see if we ought to do that

K: Who?

E: Pete Peterson. On Saturday night--you asked us to go to the theater--

K: Yeh.

E: I checked with Pete--Henry. He thinks we ought to

K: Pete agreed.

E: Pete very strongly recommended it. I also checked with my wife and she said she wanted to go to the theater with you, no matter what I did. So we have decided to accept the invitation.

K: Can I tell that to the society column.

E: No, it is between us, I don't like to be mentioned. I saw you out of costume the other night at dinner.

K: Yeh because--

E: Everybody else has a black tie, but you get some kind of special dispensation.

K: I came late--didn't get there until 11:30 to do

E: Do you really want this on Saturday night.

K: I'd like it very much. Let me

E: Would you have two more seats in the box?

K: Oh no, I've got the seats.

E: Where do we meet

K: At the Men Opera House ticket--five minutes before the performance starts--don't know if it is 7:30 or 8:00

R: Who is coming--just the Bradens?

K: Yeh.

CLASSIFIED

AUG 17 1973 5:56 PM

Page 2

E: And then are you going to take us to dinner.

K: Yeh.

E: Do you think that is right?

K: No.

E: A poor, immigrant German boy.

K: Jewish too.

E: I forgot that. I think we ought to take you to dinner.

K: I am the dream of every bigot in the country.

E: Okay-we'll be there. what is it, an opera?

K: No, it's a play.

E: It's got good reviews.

E: We are looking forward to it because Sarah's having an operation on her teeth on Friday, so we aren't going to the country. We'll be there five minutes ahead at the opera house ticket window--looking forward to it.

K: See you then.

DECEMBER 19, 1947

Author's autograph on page 105

TELCOM

Mr. Kissinger/Senator Javits

4:02 p.m. 9/6/73

J: Henry,

K: Yes, Jaff

J: The White House is seeking my approval of a new man to head the export-import bank. I consider that a critical position respecting foreign policy, that's why I'm consulting you.

K: Right.

J: The man they wish to name is a man named Tom Wyman. Tom Wyman was in the Commerce Department under Jack Connor who was there under Johnson. He is an Export-Import fellow, and commercial business mainly, but he did have a few years in government. Now he is the brother of a man I know very well in New York--Frank Wyman, that doesn't matter. I have interviewed him and I know all about him,

COMMITTEE

--one, that you want to take a look at this, because it is of absorbing interest to you as Secretary of State-Designate, or two, that my man Salzman had a chance, I would approve him, but before I did, I thought I should tell you about it.

K: When must you do that.

J: I told them I'd let them know tomorrow morning.

K: Can I think about it?

J: Of course,

K: I'll call you in the morning.

J: Sure his name is Tom Wyman, and he is a New York export and import,

DRL ASSIGNED

Autumn 2012 958

D.B. FAX DATED: 6/10/03

Page 2

J: If you want to I can rush over his curriculum vitae.

K: No, I can find it here.

J: Right. Henry, do you want me or don't you want me to do this kind of thing with you. I don't want to impose burdens on you.

K: What?

J: It seems to me that where something is in your field and it comes to me, I ought to tell you about it.

K: Oh what you have just done?

J: Right.

K: I would love you to do it. I feel flattered that you have enough confidence to do it.

J: Of course.

K: No, this I would hope very much you continue to do.

J: Good. Because I consider it to be a key foreign policy proposition.

K: I couldn't agree with you more.

J: Okay, I'm glad you feel that way, that's the way I do.

K: As long as I got you on the phone, could I ask you --maybe a little inappropriately about one thing that I am slightly concerned about-- about the confirmation process.

J: Right.

K: We have Bhutto coming here on the 18th and the UN opens on the 18th and the SALT talks open on the 24th. And I'm supposed to give the opening talk on the 24th in New York. There are 53 foreign ministers and 8 heads-of-state who have already asked to see me. Now I'm a little bit at a loss how to plan for this. What is your own estimate as to how--

J: My own estimate is two weeks.

K: It will take two weeks.

J: Right. And my estimate too will be influenced by the fact that knowing

UNCLASSIFIED

Autumn 1969
BRADY DATED 11/01/69

Page 3

you as I do, I know that you will say to the committee, look, these are
the jobs I have to do, but this is an enormous office, you should know
all about anything you want to know, and as far as I'm concerned, I will
simply do the best I can with the responsibilities that pile up on me,
consistent with your right to know. So I'm not asking you to hurry,
and I'm not asking you to slow up.

K: No, I'm not going to say anything to the committee, I think.
I don't think I should say anything.

J: No, I don't either. I would hope you wouldn't.

K: But two weeks, would put it into around the 21st.

J: That would be my guess. I would guess that this nomination will be voted on two weeks from tomorrow.

K: How long do you estimate the hearings?

J: About the same time.

K: You thing the hearings will last two weeks?

J: I don't think they will take 14 days or 10 days, but I think you know you have constantly problems of getting the committee together. I'm sure they'll have a hearing after tomorrow. Now my guess is Bill would be inclined to set that on Monday--and Monday morning is generally pretty clear. The minute you get beyond Monday, if the hearing doesn't end Monday, you've got problems.

K: Then, Bill is going away.

J: That's why I would like to stay with the Committee through Monday.
and perhaps you know by 6 o'clock each day cover a lot of
ground so it begins to be clearly repetitive. Now Harold Hughes, you
know, he wasn't running, so that is something in terms of what he
is going to hold you up or something.

K: I think that problem is going to get solved.

J: That's what I say. So my judgment is just to keep indefatigably at it.
I mean you're not tired and your entirely ready to take all questions.

K: No question about that.

J: And I'm sure you have thought through all the things that have been

Page 4

widely discussed and which you'll be asked. I doubt that they there
are going to be any surprises. Unless you know of some girl who
is going to show up with a new baby.

K: That'd be an exciting thing.

J: (laughs) And you'd like to see her too.

K: Believe me if that happens, you guys will never stop.

J: But seriously, that is the way I see it. And the only reason I gave you the two-week estimate is because I just figured that time span at the outside.

K: Well then I won't be able to make the speech on the 24th.

J: I would guess you will, Henry.

K: Because if it is voted on the 21st, I can't get sworn in until the --21st would be a Friday,

J: They could swear you in Saturday.

K: Well and then--I can't really in decency prepare it until I'm confirmed. And use the Department.

J: What would be your own idea of a time table.

K: I have no idea.

J: Hmhuh.

K: You know from any point of view, if it were earlier that week, that ends with the 21st, that would make it a little easier for me.

J: I shouldn't think it would be impossible.

K: But I don't want to hurry the committee, I want to go as long as there are questions.

J: My feeling is to try to get across the idea to Bill that tomorrow is a light day, the Senate has already gone out, it's 10 after 4. Monday is a light day, because the bill is not up until Tuesday. Let's really stay with it tomorrow and Monday, and I think on that basis, you begin to get a feeling the questions are repetitious. That is always a good atmosphere for moving it along. So I think you'll know much better

TELCORN

Mr. Kissinger/Adm. Zumwalt

5:30 p.m. 9/6/73

Z: I wanted to perform one of my occasional services for you by recommending a rear admiral whom I think would be a great asset to you in your second half at State--Rear Admiral Jack Shanigan who has had a broad gage NATO background as well as being a very fine--

K: Is he on active duty.

Z: Yes.
And I think he is the kind of a guy who could help you--

K: Hold on a second--
Hello--yeh.

Z: He is the kind of a guy who could help scrub things down to their essentials for you and has had sufficient background both in foreign policy field and military field--he would help bridge the two buildings.

K: Good idea. I do want to bring somebody over--I haven't solicited any names yet. But you have never failed me in names.

Z: Another person who might give you some insight on him is Larry Eagleburger--he worked for Larry in Europe.

K: Good. I'll talk to Larry. Many thanks.

Z: All right.

TELCOM
Secy. Shultz-Kissinger

September 6, 1973

5:40 p. m.

S: Hello.

K: Hello, George. I need your help with your friend Ingersoll. He doesn't want to take the job. Would you talk to him on the way back to Japan. I would like to put in a new change into the State Department and elevate the approach and I can't do this if I put all foreign service people in every slot. I need some new people who will be setting a standard that others will emulate. And I can't reach a new approach in the Government if I can't get highest grade people to join me.

S: Well, I'll talk to him but I didn't think it would appeal to him.

K: Do you agree with me?

S: Yes, I do.

K: And, especially if you get into see the President when I don't.

S: That is an unlikely thing to happen.

K: Well you were there afternoon.

S: Yes, I was, and he was in an especially good mood I thought. O. K. I'll talk to him and see what I can do. Also, I want to raise one point regarding Hal Sonnenfeldt... MFN will be out of the trade bill. I would very much like to have him along with me on the trip to Russia.

K: Let me see if this will work out. When is it?

S: The first week in October.

K: O. K. I'll do my damnedest.

S: OK, bye.

K: Bye.

TELCORN

David Abshire/Kissinger

September 6, 1973

6:00 p. m.

A: Hello, Henry. I have given further thought to the conversation we had
today.

K: And you have decided to come back.

A: (laughter) I have a suggestion. It is contrary to my statement earlier.
The person I suggest is Senator Spong. Henry, I normally think members are
not good in that position--usually lazy and above things. I think, however,
that Bill Spong would not have any of these detriments. I know him well enough
to know he doesn't stand on his prerogatives. Spong, being from Va., his
orientation is conservative, etc. But, in the position that he would go into
I think he would be a particularly good apostle to convince other conservative
people why they should support foreign programs. People like Mailliard
and Zablocki would say this is thinking of the Senate and not the House but
I think that Bill Spong has an easy enough personality that he could work around
these problems.

K: Dave, let me call you back on this. I must go to a meeting. I'm a little
hesitant for the reasons you named, but you have answered most of them.
I would like to call you back.

A: OK, fine.

K: Bye.

BROKEN

TELCORN"
Mr. Kissinger
Senator Hugh Scott
8:20 p.m. 9/6/73

K: Hello. How are you.

S: Fine. I have a copy of Carl Marcy's memo to all members of the committee that lists suggested questions.

K: Yeh.

S: I wanted to know if you would care to send some messenger to my home to pick it up.

K: Aren't you nice, yes.

S: Because I think it is very useful for you to have it.

K: Very nice. That is very thoughtful of you.

S: I'm a 3014 Woodland Drive.
It's across from the Finnish Embassy.

K: Right. I think they could probably find Woodland Drive easier than the Finnish Embassy.

S: It is behind the Shoreham.

K: Good, I'll get it picked up immediately. Thank you.

S: Not at all. Bye.

CLASSIFIED

Dated: 01/25/75
Date: 01/05/75