DECLASSIFIED
Authority F-012055
By: N.W. Smith

TELCOM
Dobrynin/Col. Kennedy
August 20, 1973/6:20 p.m.

(First part missed)

D: Call you otherwise

K: I have no objection.

D: I wonder how Generals called Colonels would feel about that. So now you are the boss. Henry has already arrived in San Clemente not yet.

K: No, no. Not yet. He will not arrive in San Clemente until quite late tonight. About 11:00 their time.

D: That's alright. No problem. He went together with the President or he went directly to San Clemente?

K: No, He went with the President but he is remaining for awhile in New Orleans.

D: Oh. I see. He knows the place pretty well. There are two things please convey to him but if some questions I prefer to tell him in person by telephone. One is he raised the question with me during the stay in San Clemente when Secretary General was in San Clemente the President was giving at that time a reception. There was a man and I've forgotten his name but one of those who was invited by the President to the party. The Secretary General in the presence of the President he made a suggestion that maybe it would be a good idea to send a group of business men out of State of California to the Soviet union in order to see what could be useful to develop contacts on a business maybe between State of California and some trade organizations and some other organizations.

K: Yes.

D: Henry gave me the name. I have it but I don't have it right now. I will probably even could give you the name just a minute it was a Mr. Schreiber.

K: Oh yes. Taft Schreiber.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority: E01205
By: MWBASD 00404

D: Yes Schreiber. And so Mr. Schreiber then approached White House and he said after in White House about a particular conversation and he was asking the advice of White House so Henry said that they understand that there was no special obligation but Secretary General mentioned so its up to him to take a decision on this so I received a cable. The cable is going like this-that we really have no objection at all against the trip of a group of businessmen to be chosen from the State of California. It's up to them to decide who is going to be there.

K: Yes.

D: But in order to make this visit fruitful he would like really at least to know beforehand the timing of this arrival and who will be participating in this group and what they really would like to discuss. With whom I mean, foreign trade organization or banking organization or what they really would like because we don't know and Henry didn't know anything either. So what we really would like to do in this particular case -- we are prepared to give them full opportunity for them to discuss what they would really like to discuss but we would like to have a list of the persons and date they want and then we will check with our organization, and what the kinds of business they would like to discuss.

K: Right.

D: It does not mean they will discuss business with all our people that are aboard, indirectly.

K: Of course.

D: So that this is really all. And in this case it could be easy maybe to do through our Consulate General in San Francisco.

K: Right.

D: Or either you may prefer to deal through the Embassy it's up to them really.

K: Right.

D: In this case I will assign my trade counselor who is here in Washington so it's up to them to make a decision either to go through Trade Counselor in our Embassy or to go through our Consulate General.

K: Right

D: This is one thing. The second thing, two days ago it was questioned to me about giving him some information some of our representatives from our Embassy in London discussed with some representatives of the British Foreign Office he said get some information of this kind but he was not so sure of. About this joining of Great Britain to USSR-American agreement on prevention of nuclear war. At the very beginning where he told me I said I am sure it is not true in a sense that this particular person has no specific instruction which interferes because I know that it was not so I checked once again so now I receive a confirmation that specifically says that none of our representatives in London or in any other country was given instructions to discuss the question of joining this or that country to the USSR-American agreement on prevention of nuclear war. There was none.

K: Right.

D: That everything we told the President on behalf of the Brezhnev in August that at that time Canada referred to China and France. This completely the same answers developed for London. So the solution is there has probably been some kind of misunderstanding of maybe some of our employees or theirs. But the message says that there was not any at all really given any instruction on this subject. And there is this telegram saying that we very strongly adhere to the agreement on the understanding that we have at a high level.

K: Right.

D: Both sides will not do anything or any particular ______ in order to have an adjoining of other countries to this particular agreement.

K: Right.

D: So they emphasized that it is our strong belief and intentions to adhere to this understanding which we had on a high level.

K: Right.

D: Not to do anything to involve the other countries in this prevention of nuclear war. So this I would like to talk to Henry and the message to the President.

K: I most certainly will do.

DECLASSIFIED
E012057
Authority:
3-14-94
MAY 14 1994

- 3 -

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E0.12958
By: NARA Dje 5/9/09

TELCORN

Joseph Alsop- Mr. Kissinger

August 21, 1973

9:17 a.m.

K: Hello.

A: Hello, Henry. I heard Roger's press conference and I couldn't help but feel that it sounded rather terminal.

K: Well, I don't know. Not for sure. The signs seem to be pointing that way, but now we don't have a normal method of government.

A: When are you returning?

K: In about two weeks.

A: Oh, that long? Will you be on the West Coast the whole time?

K: Yes.

A: I thought you were going to China.

K: That has been put off. It is now up to me, I mean, there is no problem on their end.

A: I have had a worrying matter. Do you know who Bob Conquest. He has been talking to his friend Erickson, an expert on the Red Army. I will read a statement of his to you. All the people I know think he is first rate. Conquest ran into him at the Chinese Embassy. He took the view that there would be an attack in the next year or two. He thought that the possibility is rather high. The USSR military is filled with old men. It is comprised of post savages. They are confident that that could overrun Manchuria and the north and set up a puppet government in Peking. The interesting thing if that Erickson is judging from a special point of view.

K: Joe, I'm sorry to interrupt you but I must speak with General Haig right now. I'll have to call you back.

A: All right, Henry.

K: OK, Bye.

A: Bye.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E.0.12958
By AB NARA Date 6/9/69

Z: About that country, the neighboring country, which we were discussing and who will be here in September, he said he has already because he was afraid that by the time that I get there it would be too late.

K: Yeh, that's a good idea.

Z: And also the other person was anxious so he had already sent a message to him and he has been briefed.

K: Good.

Z: Now yesterday at half past eleven when I talked to him, this is after the letter, that gentleman who because of the friendship he had wished to see me, but I did tell HIM that I would prefer either to see him in Europe or later on when he came here to the United States. So that again has come up that I may go there but I could not go there now, I would prefer actually, then I would be able to do the other thing.

K: Right.

Z: Now about the gentleman who I am going to see, he send me a message last night from his boss that is it possible somebody else, his name is Ghorbal.

K: Yeh, I know him.

Z: He has been in United States and he is Adviser to his boss. Would it be possible that he come instead because he has to go to Saudi Arabia. Since I did not have the chance to talk to you, I send a message "I'm going to Switzerland anyway, but I would rather to talk to him instead of the other person."

K: That was correct.

Z: At the same time I'm going to send a man who is coming with me to Geneva to send him with a letter to Tehran because I have a letter from HIM waiting for me tomorrow at the airport where I arrive. And I will of course give him also this information.

K: If they absolutely refuse, what are you going to do?

Z: I beg your pardon.

K: If they absolutely refuse to send the man you were going to see then will you see Ghorbal?

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E.0.12958
By AB NARA Dae 6/9/07

Z: This is what I was going to discuss with you because what I have suggested without talking with my boss, I have sent it on because our understanding was that person I have to see, so I said I would prefer to see him even if it would be a later date it would be all right with me. Because I would like to see him because of the friendship I had with him in London and other places I would feel more freely to talk to him.

K: I think that's better.

Z: Now incase my boss think I should see the second person, what is your point of view?

K: If your boss thinks you should see him, you should see him. But then I would just stick to the text of the message and not go further. And if you see the first person then you should give your strong impression that they should do nothing irrevocable because it would be helpful to have realistic discussions.

Z: That's right. OK, then I will do it this way: I will stick to the same position I have sent a message that I would rather to see himself than anybody else even if it is later because I have a feeling this Saudi Arabian King has come up on the end of the month. Maybe this is why they want all of them to go there and if my boss thought otherwise, then I would send a message to you or I would call you briefly and say that I would see the other person; otherwise I would not see him and wait to see the other person. And as soon as I see the other person, the one which I am supposed to see from beginning, then I contact you from Europe if it's necessary for me to come right away and if you are in California I will come.

K: Good. Excellent.

Z: Thank you very much.

K: Have a very good trip and give my warmest regards to His Majesty.

Z: I shall do that with pleasure.

K: And I definitely plan to visit Iran during the year; I mean during the next 12 months, not necessarily during this calendar year.

Z: Thank you so much. Bye.

K: Bye.

3

TELCONE

Joe Alsop/Kissinger

12:45 p.m. - 8/21/73

K: Hello.

A: Hello, Henry. I was only bothering you with all that stuff about Erickson because I think you have to take him very seriously to start with. He seems to me to be linked to the criticism of your great friend in Peking which in turn seems to be linked to Watergate.

K: But I think that's coming around now. The press is always three weeks behind the time.

A: You think he's on top of it.

K: Yeh.

A: It seems to have been a fairly near thing.

K: That's what it looks like and I'm not yet absolutely sure he's on top of it but I think so.

A: You have ______ of this.

K: Well, I don't think the Cambodian bombing halt helped us either.

A: Bombing halt, Watergate, the whole damn thing. Combined with the Chinese-Soviet intention not very far from those of the leading British experts on the Red Army.

K: Right. Exactly.

A: But you think it's under control again?

K: It looks that way. It depends how much we're under control.

A: In other words you think that the attack on your friend will be renewed if we look very weak.

K: Exactly.

A: He is so tied to the current policy that he's rendered vulnerable if the policy doesn't work.

K: Exactly.

A: That's a charming thought, isn't it. We not only cut our own throats, we cut everybody elses.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E0.12958
By AL NARA Date 5/9/69

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E.0.12958
By AB NARA Date 6/7/67

K: For no purpose. For absolutely no purpose.

A: You and I are the last surviving citizens of the United States who can see no possible usefullness in giving egos and morality runs in the yard at the expense of your own balls.

K: Morality maybe - but that's not what's involved.

A: The nose is being cut off to spite faces is what it really is.

K: If Joe Kraft can explain to me, if it is true that restoring honest government is the most important task, how the hell he's going to do it?

A: I was a little worried about the reports from New Orleans. I do hope that this strain isn't finally beginning to tell seriously.

K: No, I think he'll be all right.

A: I hope. And the other thing you think is OK.

K: Which other thing?

K: I'll know more in 48 hours.

A: Good, I'll give you a ring then.

TELCOM

Peter Flanigan-Mr. Kissinger

August 21, 1973

12:57 p.m.

K: Hello.

F: Hello, Henry, it's Pete.

K: Yeah, welcome home.

F: Thank you, I wish I was still there. Henry, I had proposed, or I had asked the State Department to find an appropriate post for Dean Hinton. He certainly deserves it--he's a competent fellow. They have proposed Panama which was acceptable to him.

K: Yeah, I approved it, I thought.

F: Did you? I had understood that there was a holdup in your office. That one of your people indicated an interest.

K: Who?

Who is your Latin American guy?

Jordan?

Yeah, that he had once indicated an interest in Panama.

Never heard of it. I don't engage in stuff like that.

I know you would have told me, Henry. I just thought you might have forgotten
it.

K: Look, any staff member of mine who came into my office and asked for an ambassadorship would get thrown through the window.

F: Well, in any event.....

K: When the great boondoogle was going on nobody asked me for a job. If I feel they can do it I offer it to them.

F: Right. Should I ask Scowcroft or Kehrli where this thing is?

K: That's right. I'm not pushing Jordan for Panama. I can tell you that right now.

F: I didn't mean to get on him. I'll find out now.

K: I knew I approved Hinton for some ambassadorship and if that's the only one that

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E 0.12958
By NARA Dae 6/9/69

※

there is. Good. I sent you a note yesterday on the problem of agricultural policy which has absorbed a great deal of our attention.

K: Yeah, I have been trying to get a NSSM only on the foreign policy aspect of it.

F: Well, I don't know ---you mean, what will the effect be if we take this position.

K: Yeah, and how we can get enough intelligence and how we can export controls in general. How we can get our foreign policy geared ahead of time.

F: Could I discuss with Cooper and see where we are--

K: He's away but let me see--of course you can discuss with Cooper or with his deputies--

F: Should I talk first with Brent and see where it stands?

K: Absolutely.

F: Thank you Henry.

K: OK, bye.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E 0.12958
By AB NARA Date 6/9/69

TELCORN

Governor Rockefeller-Mr. Kissinger

August 21, 1973

1:05 p.m.

K: Hello.

R: Hello, Henry. Are you out on the West Coast?

Is it nice out there?

K: Actually, no. We haven't had any sunshine.

R: Ah, you should be up in Maine. The weather is beautiful up here.

K: The water is too cold in Maine.

R: Yeah, that's the truth.

K: Nelson, I called you primarily because I had breakfast with Laird this morning.

R: Yeah

K: And he thinks that you're the only possible President in '76---not just the only possible candidate. And then I said, have you ever talked to him? And he said no. Now, he can't do anything while he is in this job, but he isn't going to stay in this job very long.

R: Yeah.

K: Now I don't want to tell you what to do, but he talks so much around and I feel it would be a mistake to let him go and he's a good tough practical politician. Don't call him today or it will look too obvious.

R: That's right.

K: I told him that you admired him enormously. And, in his wierd way he's even patriotic.

R: That's right.

K: And, he has tremendous contacts in the House and it would be just good to have a tough old pro ---

R: I'll say. I'll call him Thursday or Friday.

K: I think that would be good.

R: And, set up a meeting after Labor Day.

K: OK.

ba

2

K: That would be terrific. And put it on the basis that you don't want anything from him except his general advice and counsel.

R: I did go to talk to him but not about politics. About the study--before this last thing got so hot. This is very helpful, very helpful.

K: Well, the Vice President was on television again yelling at the Justice Dept.

R: The Vice Pres. was on television? When was that?

K: About an hour ago. He attacked the Justice Department. At least he's got guts--which you cannot say of the whole administration.

R: What a fantastic situation.

K: I'm telling you--it is unbelievable. The President attacked Ziegler physically in front of television cameras yesterday.

R: Oh, you're kidding me. What did Ziegler do?

K: Oh, what can you do when the President shoves you?

R: No, I mean, what had caused the incident?

: No one quite knows.

: Boy. What is the purpose of Rogers' press conference?

: I have no idea.

: Anything new on that front?

I don't exclude now that it's going to happen and I won't be talked to ahead time. It will be just announced. You may not believe that but-----

R: There's nothing wrong with that though.

K: No, except you would sort of expect that at some point somebody would talk to you, wouldn't you?

R: Yeah, but depending on who that somebody is. I just want it to happen--that's all.

K: But I literally do not know what they are up to.

R: Well, probably not.

By: NARA Date: 5/9/69
DECLASSIFIED
Authority: E.0.12958

3

R: Well, it probably difficult for anyone to tell. How's Al holding up?

K: Well, he's got an unbelievable task.

R: Yeah, I'd say.

K: I sometimes think if he had gone to medical school instead of West Point he would be better prepared.

R: What a guy. Well, I'm up here working---I've got Bill up here and we've been working on the outline of the whole political---all these things that we've been talking about. It's been very useful.

K: But I would talk to Laird and get some---I don't think he's the guy---but get some real pro---before Percy and the others get too active.

R: I'll talk to him and I'll talk to Rog Morton.

K: Yeah.

R: And set up meetings with them after---

K: And I'll keep my eyes open.

Great, Henry.

Nelson, give my love to Happy.

Great, and if she were here she would give hers to you. How are things in the international scene?

Well, I think we're coming back. We're giving the Europeans--we're getting to a sort of confrontation posture with them only to restore a sense of reality to their thinking. But we're going to win that. But they're just going to get some rough treatment for a while. But they're beginning to cave. And the Chinese are beginning to come back.

R: Any effect of this stuff in the paper about the MIRV---

K: Oh, I've known that.

R: I knew you knew about it but I was wondering about the effect.

K: I think people are getting worried.

R: Which would be healthy.

K: Very.

By: NARA Dae: 6/9/69
DECLASSIFIED
Authority: E.0.12958

R: Well, it's a fast-moving scene.

K: I think the Democrats are getting worried about their bombing halt vote.

R: You do? Marvelous. Well I hope they do.

K: Well, I'll talk to you soon.

R: OK, Henry. This is marvelous and I'll be in touch with you soon.

Thanks loads. Bye.

K: Bye.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E0.12958
By AB NARA Dae 6/9/69

4

TELCORN

Stephen Graubard-Mr. Kissinger

August 21, 1973

1:22 p. m.

K: Hello.

G: Hello, Henry.

K: Where are you?

G: I'm back in Cambridge Mass. in a city of hell. After I've been in the city
of light. You got my letter, I hope.

K: Yes, thank you.

G: I really hope I can do what *x* we talked about.

K: Well---

G: Do you think there's any chance?

K: Not much.

G: You're that busy?

K: I'm extremely busy. But I don't totally exclude it--maybe we can do it.

G: I just thought, frankly, there were two conversation that I had and I suddenly
relax realized that there is a certain kind of person you're not able to see anymore.

K: That's true.

G: And that it might be pleasant to sit down and talk with these people.
You know, they are not people you can read---they're people who are more politically
but not necessarily involved politically at the highest level.

K: No, let's keep it in mind and can you do it on short notice?

G: I think so. Again, the real question would be --- I go back to Italy around Labor
Day and I would like to know---I'd have to know before then---because it would involve
getting in touch with the people and making sure from you that these are the sort
of people that you want to see. But I would love to do it.

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2

K: Well, it requires a lot of security and so forth.

G: But again, I suggest this place which is perhaps--I don't know what your place in Mexico was like--but it might have been the nicest house I have ever been in in Europe, Henry.

K: Isn't that great.

G: It is very modern--all wood, glass, stone, set incomparably more than the Villa Seraboglioni.

K: Well, I don't really like that all that much.

G: No. In fact this is really---of course they would have to check it out. I don't know if you know this man Bessetti, but he--

K: Yes, I've met him once.

G: Yes, he's now---incidentally, we are producing a book on Italy and it is one of the most interesting books. It's thesis is that everything--and not only divorce--is different in Italy. It has some remarkable pieces on Italian politics. Well, I call you exFax because I had a message to call you and I had hoped you would give me the green light. Are you in Washington?

No, San Clemente.

I see, and you'll be there for the next two weeks?

Yeah.

Are you children with you?

Yes they are with me.

G: Give them my regards and love.

K: Well, I'm delighted that you called, Steve.

G: I'd love to do this and could do it on very short notice. I think I could get some very interesting people. It could be for a day.

K: If something comes up, I'll call you. But call me anyway before you leave.

G: Very good, be well, and I'll look forward to seeing you--hopefully there.

K: OK, Bye.

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Authority E.0.12958
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AB

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TELCONE

Irving Lazer/Kissinger

2:12 p.m. - 8/21/73

K: Hello.

L: Henry.

K: Irving, how are you?

L: All right. It must seem like New Year's Eve to you.

K: (Laugs) Yeh, there's plenty of excitement.

L: I know. You don't have to be even in San Clemente to know what the excitement is about. They've covered everything about 4 times.

K: Yeh.

L: My boy, you are well otherwise? Are you composed?

K: Why shouldn't I be?

L: No, you're the only that can afford it.

K: I'm in good shape.

L: You're well. Tell me, I wasn't speaking politics, I was speaking about your health. You say you're well, that's good enough. When do we catch you for dinner?

K: What do you suggest?

L: I would suggest - we'd like to have a dinner for you on a mid-week day because a lot of people go to the beach. We've got a weekend coming up, not this weekend, but the following weekend, Labor Day weekend. If you think you're free, I'd love to make it for the 29th which is a Wednesday.

K: Look, can we say tentatively yes. I would like to find out when the President is planning his press conference. After that is determined, which should be within the next 24 or 48 hours, I will call you.

L: I would appreciate that. Or if you're uncertain, we can have it on the 4th or 5th of September.

K: No, I'll almost certainly no longer be here.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E.0.12958
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L: We'd love to make it at night and a sort of a fun dinner. In order to do that we'd like to be able to invite people. To get the people we want - you know they get booked up - and we'd like to get the kind of people that amuse you.

K: Of course, let me call you. . .

L: May I ask you something. You're friendly obviously with Ronnie Reagan and so on. We want to invite Ronnie Reagan and some other people and they do get booked up in advance.

K: Let me call you no later than Thursday morning and by that time I will know for sure.

L: Or if by some stroke of good fortune you happen to know before. Call me before.

K: Well, that's why I said no later.

L: I should be accustomed to the precision of your ____.

K: Good.

L: All right, Henry. We'd love to see you. We're very anxious to see you and if you know sooner than Thursday let us know. Would you tell your secretary to call my office instead of my home because then if I'm not there my secretary will take the message. And just give us any day that suits your convenience whether it's the 28th, 29th, or 30th. Any one of those days. And the sooner you let us know the better.

K: Excellent. I will let you know hopefully tomorrow, certainly Thursday.

L: And if you want to bring a lady, fine.

K: Right, I'll let you know.

L: Nice to talk to you and I'll be looking forward to hearing from you.

2

TELCONE

Sec. Rush/Kissinger

8:16 a.m. - 8/22/73

K: Hello.

R: Henry, I just wanted to say congratulations.

K: Aren't you nice, Ken.

R: This is something you not only richly deserve but something you will carry out with the same superior way you've always done things.

K: I hope we will work closely together because I want to talk to you very soon. I intend to turn much of the activities over to you if you are willing.

R: I would like to do that very much, Henry. I enjoy working with you and I have always enjoyed working with you.

K: Can you come out here some time?

R: Certainly.

K: What is your schedule? How about early next week? Monday or Tuesday?

R: Monday or Tuesday.

K: Which would you prefer?

R: I could come out . . .

K: Why don't you come on Tuesday.

R: I will come out Monday night and be there Tuesday morning. Where will I stay?

K: We will take care of that for you?

R: Shall I take an Air Force plane?

K: Let me see if there's a courier coming out.

R: OK, Henry. Congratulations again. I am delighted and I think it is a great thing for our country. I can see us coming out of the present fog into the sunshine.

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TELCORN

Secy. Rogers - Mr. Kissinger

August 22, 1973

9:30 a.m.

K: Hello.

R: Henry, I just wanted to call you to congratulate you.

K: Bill, I think that is an extraordinarily generous thing of yours to do. And
I want you to know that I want to work with you after you leave as much as you
will permit me to.

R: Thank you very much. I told the President the other day I will do all
I can to make the transition a good one and a successful one in the national
interest.

K: Well, you're a big man, and if there are any of your people, Bill, that
you have a particular interest in, I wish we could talk about it, that were on
your staff.

R: Right, I'd be glad to do that, Henry. I'm going up to Canada over the
weekend so I won't get back here until Tuesday and Ken can come out Tuesday.
I like to have Ken here while I'm gone.

K: Absolutely.

R: But, he was away last week.

K: Ken called me this morning. That is how this arose.

R: I know, I talked to him last night. OK, Henry, well good luck, and you'll
find it's a great department.

K: Thank you and I will try to carry out your spirit.

R: I'll look forward to seeing you when I come back.

K: OK, bye.

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I*

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TELCORN

Hank Trewhitt/Kissinger

9:35 a.m. - 8/22/73

K: Hello.

T: I've got one here that's going to be hard for you to field, I just want
you to give me some guidance.

K: This is only deep background.

T: Yeh. Yeh. We're scheduling a piece on whether the Soviets and
Chinese have begun reassessing the President and their relation
to the U.S. in the light of Watergate.

K: And you will of course conclude yes.

T: I don't have any judgment at all.

K: But Klein will undoubtedly conclude yes.

T: He's on vacation as a matter of fact. Is there anything at all - I'm
going to read you the next paragraph which I'm not supposed to.
Reads: "Please do not reveal to sources but we have
hints from academic sources who have friends in the NSC that there
is some evidence that Peking has begun to back off from its close
embrace."

K: Look the trouble is that these stories are usually two or three weeks
behind events. There was some problem in July and August that was
consistent with that sentence, not conclusive, but I think it is now
surmounted.

T: Can I suggest without any attribution that there was evidence?

K: There was evidence but you don't know to what extent it was due to the
Party Congress, to the Congressional vote that they had to change some
major thing that had been worked out and to what extent, which is
an unsettling event in itself.

T: So what we'll do now is say with some suggestion that we are surmounting
whatever that evidence was.

K: I think whatever the evidence was is no longer correct. We are
substantially on course.

DECLASSIFIED
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T: OK. Good enough. Which leads me to ask how soon you might be going?

K: That depends on a lot of things. That decision now is essentially up to me and that depends on some factors not related to China policy. So you can draw no conclusions about my visit... from when my visit takes place about the U.S.-Sino relations. We'd really be going off the deep end if you speculate along the way that these NSC sources gave you.

T: Isn't it also possible that it could have been internal also?

K: That's what I mean, their Party Congress so it's a combination and a group of them maybe reenforcing each other.

T: That's a good point too because one of the aspects...

K: To the extent that we look weaker, those who were identified with our policy also suffered.

T: And in this case it would be a matter of holding back while they got their internal affairs straightened out.

K: There were no overt acts of any kind.

T: So you have really a dual consideration how you play it from here. And that is the matter of Southeast Asia and bilateral relations with Peking.

K: Right. But Southeast Asia is not the central feature in this.

T: Am I missing a point then when you say

K: Southeast Asia is not the key to the Sino-U.S. relations.

T: I understand that but what I mean is what will determine when you went.

K: No.

T: It would depend on other considerations than I would think Southeast Asia.

K: No, it depends on other plans I have into which I have to fit it now.

T: But it doesn't relate then just to that area.

K: No, in fact again for your own guidance but not to be used, one reason I haven't gone earlier is because once the bombing stopped Peking lost its leverage with us to the extent that the Khmer Rouge can win by themselves and therefore my effort has been to dissociate these

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E.O. 12958
By A.B. NARA Date 6/9/69

two events rather than to print them together.

T: Is it correct that Sihanouk is still going to stay away from us or keep his distance?

K: What has Sihanouk got left to deliver. You read his press conference yesterday he said he couldn't make peace even if he wanted to.

T: Is there any hope of getting him credentials if and when he goes back in?

K: That depends on events within Cambodia. I'm not going to Peking to settle Cambodia.

T: What kind of time frame can we look for?

K: I'll know more in two weeks. Believe me it depends more on me at this point, but don't write that. This is for your guidance.

T: OK, sir. I guess that does it.

K: Good. If I find that I've given an interview which is annotated you won't see for a year.

T: I think you know better than that.

K: Hank, and listen while I took a dim view of the other thing I know you didn't do it.

T: We bled a lot over that one.

K: I know. It didn't actually do so much damage. It was just the ethics of the thing.

T: I know. It was terribly knifing and I wasn't happy about it either.

K: OK.

TELCORN

Amb. Scali - Mr. Kissinger

August 22, 1973

9:45 a.m.

K: Hello.

S: Hello, Henry. I want to talk to you on this issue of Guam and Puerto Rico which is due to hit the fan here at 3:00. This may not be the world's most important issue but it has a three o'clock deadline. Now I've put together a memo here which I don't even have time to data facts to you because of the time factor but I'm going to read it to you very quickly. I've tried to simplify it as much as I can.

K: Well, I'm opposed to their going to either island.

S: Hear me out first. "The US accepts the obligation under Article 73 of the UN Charter to report to the UN on non-self governing territories. We informed the UN UN bix in the 1940s that Guam, American Samoa, the US Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico were non-self-governing. We also accepted the principle of the UN sending missions to non-self-governing territories but we have so far never issued an invitation. In 1953 after Puerto Rico achieved commonwealth status, the UN General Assembly voted to remove Puerto Rico from this list. That decision is still in effect. The Cubans and others, however, are trying to nullify this 1953 resolution by persuading the Committee of 24 to put Puerto Rico back on the list of non-self-governing territories. That is, colonies. This year they hope to gain from the Committee a) a public hearing for PR independence leaders and b) a hearing for PR independence and a resolution criticizing the PR Governor Hernandez Colon's proposals for a petro-chemical superport complex on the Island. The Committee will decide this afternoon about 3:00 whether to grant a hearing to the Independistas and will begin discussing the language of a resolution in the next few days. At this late date we have only a slim chance of blocking the hearing. But, if we have the right weapon, we may be able to avoid a damaging resolution. In any case, our principle point of leverage is the Chairman of the Committee, the influential Tanzanian Ambassador The weapon we need is the authority to invite at some later date a mission to a US territory on which we are already reporting to the Committee if he succeeds in limiting the Committee's involvement in the PR. If the Committee hears independence orally, we expect heavy media coverage in big headlines in Puerto Rico. The Governor is fully aware of what may happen and plans to heap scorn on the independence types for carrying their case to the UN, rather than to the PRican people where they have only been able to win 4% of the vote. However, a Committee of 24 resolution implicitly criticizing his handling of a sensitive domestic problem would really arouse the statehood and commonwealth people

DECLASSIFIED
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S: and would cause great problems with our relationship with the Governor who is one of the good guys. Guam, is the best bet for a visiting mission. The Governor has no objections and Guam's representative in Congress Juan Taft, who was highly regarded at the UN, supports the idea. We expect that a visit would be helpful to the US since virtually all...

K: Look, John, the President is calling me on the other line. I will call you back, but for your guidance, he's giving a press conference in about an hour.

S: He is?

K: And, I'll call you back as soon as I possibly can. But I must take that call now.

S: OK, bye.

DECLASSIFIED
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By AB NARA Date 6/9/09

TELCON

The President-Mr. Kissinger

August 22, 1973

9:50 a.m.

P: Yeah.

K: Mr. President.

P: With regard to Sihanouk's statement, it is my view just to stick by what I said. We know that --- when did he give us the invitation to visit the darn place.

K: I can get it.

P: No, I don't--

K: July 1969 and he said he can promise you a welcome of extraordinary warmth by the population. So perhaps it was not just a formal invitation....

P: Right. My feeling is that he is just trying to get on with the left wing here.

K: I would treat it with some light intent here. We can say that we understand why Prince Sihanouk is saying this.

P: Yes, we understand why he has to say that. But he never complains and he in July of 1969 he said he would get a welcome of warmth and that was after the bombing had been going on for months. He was totally aware of it.

K: Yes.

P: Yeah, fine. Thanks a lot.

K: OK.

P: Bye.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E0.12958
By NARA Date 6/9/69

*

TELCONE

Dobrynin/Kissinger

10:09 a.m. - 8/22/73

K: Hello.

D: Hello, Henry.

K: Anatol, how are you?

D: How are you?

K: I'm fine.

D: You just get up?

K: No, I've been up for 15 minutes.

D: For 15 minutes.

K: No, I've been here for quite a bit.

D: Well, I send a message to you. I don't know if you had a chance to read it yet.

K: Yes, about the . . .

D: Yeh.

K: One part didn't require an action. It was just information.

D: I mean today I sent it.

K: Oh, no, today's I haven't received yet.

D: I just want to let you know that - well it's again about the publicity - certain kinds of things.

K: About the publicity?

D: Yes, one thing I received here. I already send the text to Colonel Kennedy.

K: Well, he's probably holding six staff meetings. When did you send it over?

D: About half an hour. I spoke with him by telephone but then I send it.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority E012058
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DECLASSIFIED
Authority EO 12058
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Date: 06/04/84

K: Publicity about what?

D: The case you remember we discuss it about the case in New York.

K: Oh yes, yes, yes. We're doing our best to sit on it.

D: What if it's really I don't know what could be doing worse. I would
like you to look

K: I don't know who is doing this. The Justice Department is no longer part of the U.S. Government but I will do my best.

D: Well you please look into this and if possible we discuss later on on
the telephone, right?

K: OK. Anatol, the reason I called you is to give you some confidential advance information. The President is holding a press conference in about two hours and he's going to announce that based on your recommendation he's making the changes which you and I have discussed.

D: (Laugs) I see.

K: We're assuming that your government approves his saying that.

D: (Laugs) You're not joking now, really?

K: No, he is saying that after full discussion

D: I understand.

K: No, he's not mentioning your government. But we wanted your government to know because in the new position we will of course work with the same spirit and in the same manner as before.

D: I understand. So it will be official from today?

K: We'll announce today. But you shouldn't - he's very eager to keep it secret until his press conference.

D: No. In any case now the timing in Moscow is so they will know simultaneously. TASS agency will - it will be two hours?

K: Yeh. He frankly didn't make the final decision as to the announcement. It was supposed to be made next week but then he decided to do it today just a little while ago.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority: E012058
By: MWB, 5-30-04

D: So he will make it?

K: Yes.

D: Well I send you congratulations in a letter or how. You prefer now to be much more formal so to speak.

K: And I won't insist on protocol, Anatol, if you just call me Excellency we'll get along fine.

D: That is exactly what I will say. So congratulations, the very best. It is final I guess.

K: Yeh, that's right, but of course I don't need to tell you that if anything it may make it easier to do the things you and I have been doing together.

D: I think it will.

K: And it will certainly

D: And so you know why I think so because as far as you and we are really I think it will be really.

K: Some of the complexities of communication I think we will solve.

D: Only one thing I have in mind because some times as you know it happens that are one or two complexities.

K: Exactly. And otherwise there is no change because your government had understood the problems better than anybody else.

D: I'm sure.

K: But we won't have to worry now at future summit meetings who attends what.

D: (Laugs) This is definitely a relief. I understand now that my Minister will know when he comes he will definitely know where to go and how to go.

K: Will I tell your Minister that I'm keeping also the position that I now have so that he knows I'm also at the Politburo level.

D: That's exactly what I was preparing to say so you are practically on the same level. Of course he is member of Politburo.

K: But he's more junior than I.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority
E012058
By: N.A. Garbarino

K: You're right.

D: You always have an upper hand.

K: Anatol, I look forward to working with you. Are you coming out next week?

D: If you invite me.

K: I invite you. I don't know yet. What may happen, very confidentially, the President may come back earlier but if he does I may still stay out here with my children and we would still be happy

D: Anytime, just give me a call.

K: Good, because I may be staying out here with my children.

D: All right. There is no problem at all.

K: Good.

D: And once again Henry, it's really congratulations.

K: And look, I will look after the other thing. It is inexcusable. It is not in the spirit of our relationship. I assure you - you know who is doing it. I can assure you the White House has not permitted any of this.

D: Because you see what I am telling you we found something else again - you remember I mentioned to you once. So we have in two other places additional so there is very strong.

K: I will get control of it. Why don't you tell Moscow now, on my behalf, when we - that this is against the spirit of our relationship and we will take immediate steps.

D: Can I say it really?

K: You can say it and I will get you a formal report tomorrow.

D: OK. Once again, my wife and I send you our best wishes.

K: And my best wishes and regards to all our friends in Moscow. You're the only Ambassador that I'm calling.

D: Thank you very much for calling.

K: Good bye, Anatol.

TELCOM

Joseph Alsop-Mr. Kissinger

11:55 a. m.

August 22, 1973

K: Hello.

A: Hello, Henry. You promised me two days notice and I didn't get it.

K: When we meet I'll have to go over that with you.

A: Well, I'll read about it now.

K: I mean that I couldn't give you two days notice. I'd like to give it to you personally. I really couldn't discuss it Joe. It was a feeling that if I talked before hand it may have fallen through.

A: Has he announced it?

K: Yes. He's doing it right now. He has appointed me.

A: OK, I'll want to talk to you before too long. How do you feel about it?

K: I fell that it is a duty. It is a hell of a job ahead. Joe, I really must go.
I'll try to call you later.

A: OK. Bye.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E.0.12958
By: NARA Dje 6/9/69

I*

TELCORN

Roland Evans-Mr. Kissinger

August 22, 1973

12:30 p.m.

K: Hello.

E: Hello, Henry. Congratulations.

I was feeling that I had a major share in this. Why didn't you tell me?

K: Well, if you had just stayed with me, but you ran away.

E: You told me two months ago that you never had a notion.

K: Well, that is true. Saturday was the first that I spoke to the President about it.

E: Are you going to move your group over there? Isn't that important to the morale of the State Department?

K: Look, the motive I have is to institutionalize foreign policy so that someone can carry this on after I leave the State Department. The State Department will have no complaints about working.

E: Have you talked with Ken Rush? Is he going to stay?

K: Yes. Well, to have a German running my country's foreign policy is something I hadn't quite counted on.

K: All you can say is that they don't have to wear helmets on the job.

E: How did he do in New Orleans?

K: He is doing an excellent job in the press conference right now. Don't you think?

E: Fair, fair. It is too complex to talk about. Will you work in the WH or go over to the other office. Will you keep a White House office?

K: I will work there but keep Scowcroft at the White House.

E: Will you take some people such as Stearman back to the State Dept. ? What else can I ask?

K: I don't think it is a good time to talk about it.

E: Wow, what a story. Will you be there later?

K: Yes.

E: OK, I'll probably call later. Bye.

DECLASSIFIED
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TELCOM

Peter Lisagor/Kissinger

12:40 p.m. - 8/22/73

K: Hello.

L: Mr. Secretary, congratulations or commiserations, which should it be?

K: Probably both.

L: Congratulations though, Henry. One of the reasons I called is - is it possible to get a short response from your reaction kind of statement?

K: Peter, what I thought in order to be fair is, I'll have a brief press conference tomorrow. I think that's the only fair way.

L: OK. Well, let me just ask you one other thing because we chatted with you a little bit about this, you remember, George and I. Without quoting you because those were the terms, could I represent you feeling the way you said you felt when we talked?

K: Which was what?

L: Which was that there's a lot of talent over there, you want to institutionalize the policy a little better than it has been and that kind of thing.

K: Yeh, you can say he's known to believe that very strongly.

L: That's what I meant. I just didn't want you to read something that you felt was a violation of our understanding, but not become very personal.

K: No, I think you can do that, Peter, because that's my intention.

L: Right.

K: In fact that's the motive for accepting it.

L: Right, I understand that. Do you - you have no problem on the Hill you don't suspect?

K: I have no reason to suspect it, but that's really up - Excuse me, that's Senator Mansfield calling.

L: OK, what time, Henry, do you have any idea when we might do this for my own personal planning?

K: In the morning.

L: Thanks very much and congratulations and I mean that very sincerely.

TELCONE

Haig-Kissinger

August 22, 1973

12:50 p.m.

K: Hello.

H: Henry. What did you think? The President was afraid you would be disappointed.

K: I think it was spectacular.

H: Spectacular.

K: I don't mean what he said about me. I think the press conference was spectacular. It was unbelievable good---strong, direct...and I think it was without any question the press conference he has given and he has given some good ones. It was just superlative.

H: Well, that's just great.

K: Don't you think?

H: Oh, oh, I'm still floating.

K: I think this is going to turn it around.

H: Now, you'll get a lot of press needling today and you ought to go out and just give them the word.

K: I wasn't going to meet with the press today.

H: Well the TV will be after you.

K: I thought I would wait until tomorrow. Don't you think? I don't think I should compete with the President. I'm not taking any calls.

H: Good, Henry.

K: But, will you congratulate him for me? I think it was spectacular.

H: Good, Henry. Bye.

K: Bye.

DECLASSIFIED
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TELCOM

August 22, 1973 /2:10 p.m.

Carl Maw/HAK

K: Hello.

M: Henry, Carl Maw.

K: Carl, how are you?

M: My sincerest congratulations.

K: Thank you and I appreciate everything you've done over the last months to make my life more tolerable.

M: I think this is terrific and I just wanted to take a moment of your time to say God bless you.

K: Thank you Carl and I hope that we can see something of each other in the near future.

M: Well, I would like to see you very much if I can be of any help you know I'm...

K: I'd like to talk to you in general but also about that legal position we talked about once.

M: OK. I'd be happy to talk to you about it Henry and particularly, I think you've got some good choices available.

K: Right. As soon as I know when I come back to Washington perhaps we can get together and talk about it.

M: Righto.

K: And many thanks for your friendship. Thank you Carl.

DECLASSIFIED
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By: NARA Dje: 6/9/09

TELCOM

Elliott Richardson - Mr. Kissinger

August 22, 1973

2:48 p.m.

H

R: Hello.

K: Hello, Elliott. How are you. God, the megolamania has reach the
point where they now put you on first.

R: I thought they always did.

K: I was on the phone, that's why I couldn't take it right away.

R: I understand. That's very exciting. Great news. It will be an interesting
era in foreign policy.

K: I would like, when I get back, Elliott, if you have the time, to sit down
with you because you must have formed some impressions and views in your
tenure over there. And I thought we saw things pretty much the same way,
not only in substance but organizationally and if you have any ideas...of
what can be done, I'd be very appreciative.

R: I'd be pleased to do that, Henry. I hope I can be helpful. But, I think it
is a great thing and there will be the opportunity to not only in the field of
policy itself but the life of the Department as an institution to make some
very important restorative long-term directional changes.

K: That is one of the challenges of taking this job which is to see whether one
can institutionalize the foreign policy.

R: Very, very exciting and I am pleased to learn of it.

K: You're terribly nice to call.

R: Please call soon.

K: Yes, I will and in the meantime, if you could recall some of your insights
in the past, it would be helpful.

R: Yes, I will do my best.

K: And I know what you must be going through right now and it must be very painful.

R: Yeah, I had a pretty good job over there at Defense. Things have been going
downhill for me ever since I left State.

DECLASSIFIED
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*

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TELCONE

Herb Schlosser/Kissinger

3:33 p.m. - 8/22/73

K: Hello.

S: Henry.

K: Herb, how are you?

S: I'll make it brief; I know that this is a busy day. That was tremendous. Tremendous, obviously for you, but tremendous for the country. It's a thrilling thing to have happen. For whatever it may be worth, conversations like this are taking place all across the country.

K: Really.

S: It's a good mood. That's the guy and I just want to wish you every good wish as does Judy.

K: Aren't you nice.

S: You're going to be very successful, Henry.

K: I hope so.

S: You will be a ray of light.

K: Anything that's in my power to do, I'll do.

S: You fellows have to start making some news in other areas than the one that's preoccupied the country.

K: How long are you going to be out here?

S: I'm out in New York. I was going to come out. As a matter of fact, I was going to fly out on Monday and stay all next week but I couldn't, I just am too jammed up here. I just got back from vacation. I won't be arriving until the week of the 10th.

K: I see, I'll be back here - I'll be back East then.

S: You'll be out there all next week.

K: If that, but I hope to see you very soon.

S: I would like very much to see you and talk with you. Whenever you think you'll be back, I'll call you, I'll come down to Washington or we can do it here.

2

K: Look, I'll be back. . .

S: Remember now, you've taken symbolically a new step, but you can't
forget your old friends, Henry.

K: I'm in no danger of forgetting my old friends. I never forget friends.

S: I know that; I'm only kidding you when I say that.

K: Besides bureaucratically I consider it a demotion.

S: (Laugs) You know what you have to do now too, unfortunately, you can't
have as much fun visibly as you used to.

K: Don't I know it.

S: You really can't. You'll have to check on what friends are permissible
publicly.

K: Don't I know that. We'll both have to be pompous asses.

S: That's right.

K: Hope to see you very soon, Herb.

S: When you get back we can always get together.

K: Good.

S: All right, good luck.

K: Bye, bye.

DECLASSIFIED
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By NARA Dje 6/9/09

TELCOM (San Clemente)
Justice Goldberg/Kissinger

8/22/73 - 3:48 p.m.

K: Hello.

G: Henry, I have told my secretary to send you a telegram. If you're secretary will get on I'll dictate it. After we've talked.

K: All right.

G: You know I miss the government only in one respect. They have the best offices, etc. When you retire to private life you'll miss that too.

K: I am sure.

G: But good luck to you. The foreign policy of our country as you will hear from what I have to say, . . . . . . I think it's just terrific.

K: Arthur, you have been a good friend and I hope to see you when we all get back to Washington.

G: So, if you'll just put your secretary on I'll have my secretary dictate it like it has been sent.

K: Right, let me get my secretary on. Good. Many thanx, Arthur.

DECLASSIFIED
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DECLASSIFIED
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TelCon:4:05-8/22/73

Mr. Kissinger/
Secretary Shultz

K: Hello, George.

S: Henry. The length to which you will go to get status on me - its
terrible.

K: Well, it was just unbearable.

S: I can imagine that.

K: I mean to have to deal with you as a Cabinet member, to see this
big limousine. What really broke af the back of it was when I rode
with you in from the airport.

S: Well listen this is great and I really am looking forward to working
with you in all your various capacities.

K: well George - I

S: And I think it is marvelous.

K: I think now with the two of us I think we can do some of the things
we have been talking about since April.

S: Great.

K: And we will certainly - I will certainly try my damnest and it is going
to be a pleasure to work with you.

S: Very fine sir. I look forward to it.

K: And thank you for calling. You have been one of the rays of light in
this situation. I mean that very deeply.

S: You've been one of the rays of light. God it has been awful. I thought
the press conference went well.

K: I do too.

S: Very well. And he ought to have another one tomorrow and another
one the next day. And the first time they ask him a question that is
not about Watergate we are off and running.

K: That's it. You know in a way the questions were so vicious today that
they helped it.

By AL NARA Dae 5/9/09

- 2 -

S: Surely, and he knocked them out of the box really.

K: That is right. No, he is going to have one the first week back.
That is within no more than two weeks.

S: Very fine.

K: And he really needs a week's rest.

S: Well, I thought it was great all the way around.

K: Well, aren't you nice.

S: The announcement was nicely done- made it Kudos to Rogers but
everybody thinks feels horay we have got the Secretary of State we
are looking for.

K: Aren't you nice. Thank you George.

S: OK.

K: See you soon.

S: Bye.

K: Bye.

TelCon:4:15-8/22/73

Mr. Kissinger/
Marvin Kalb

K: Hello.

MK: Henry.

K: Marvin, how are you.

MK: Listen, what can I say except my most heart felt congratulations.

K: Aren't you nice.

MK: I mean we may never finish this book, but with all of the pain of having to write a new chapter there is just the pleasure of knowing that this has happened. I mean I think it is marvelous.

K: Well Marvin you have been a good friend and a fair critic and I really greatly appreciate this call.

MK: Well, I really am just delighted. Bernie called me a while ago and he said if you ever get to Henry please extend his own congratulations, Saddie(?) says the same thing, Phylis says the same thing.

K: Aren't you nice.

MK: We are just delighted for you and come and see us soon.

K: Well invite me.

MK: No, you know Authority over at the Department - when do you think you will be checking in?

K: Well as soon as I get confirmed.

MK: When does that happen.

K: Well I don't think I should go into that today.

MK: Oh, I see. OK

K: You know, but I would guess - I don't anticipate any major problems. Do you?

MK: I think not. I have talked to about three or four Senators this afternoon and all of them were very, very much up. One of them was sorry that

DECLASSIFIED
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*(

By: A6 NARA Date: 6/9/09

- 2 -

Rogers is leaving, but that is not to say that he was unhappy that you are arising. And ah - but the other three were most delighted at the prospect, they think they are going to have a nice kind of exchange with you up on the Hill. One of them said is he going to invoke executive privilege. I said if you are asking my personal opinion, I would say no.

K: No. You know I think - you are not calling me as a news piece.

MK: No, no I am calling you as a friend now.

K: That is what I thought. The reason I am combining these two positions is to avoid the problem that there is somebody at the White House who is subject to executive privilege.

MK: Right.

K: And actually the Foreign Relations Committee now can ask me not only about those things which Secretaries of State have traditionally testified on, but the whole inter-agency business.

MK: Right, right. I think it is going to be an opportunity for a whole new relationship between the Department and the Foreign Relations Committee, where relations have been really very tense and sour throughout.

K: That is going to be my attitude and we have to establish the principle that the foreign policy of the United States is an unpartisan affair.

MK: Right.

K: And concerns everybody and I am going to try to get a partnership between the foreign relations committee and the State Department. And as an old admirer of Fulbright's I think it can be done.

MK: I think it can be done too because Fulbright you know is one of your fans.

K: You know. We are going to disagree on certain things.

MK: No, no. I know about the disagreement on areas of policy but I think he respects your intelligence and likes the sense of a back and forth intellectually.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E.0.12958
By AB NARA Dje 6/7/07

- 3 -

K: Exactly.

MK: I think you will be able to provide and that should be very, very good. Really terrific. One of these days we will sit down and talk about the State Department where I am a great expert.

K: Well, no. Marvin in all seriousness you have been covering it for a long time. Will you put your thoughts in order of what you think is wrong with it, how it can be given some dynamism because if there is any sense in my going over there, it is to institutionalize foreign policy so that we get a group of people who are really dedicated to it.

MK: Yes. Well I will be delighted to. I would have to do it in person and not on paper.
We'll do it

K: No, no. / Of course in person.

MK: But I would be delighted to.

K: If you could get your thinking in order about it and - then you probably have it in order. But give it some thought and the week that I come back let's have a drink or a meal.

MK: Good. Listen Henry, one other thing. Let me switch to a reporter again. Before you got this job I still wanted to go with you on these trips.

K: Right.

MK: And all the more so now.

K: Well it is easier for me now to do it.

MK: Right. Please keep it in mind.

K: You know now I am your bead and I can set my own policy more easily.

MK: Wonderful.

K: So I think the chances have greatly improved.

MK: Wonderful. When would you be coming back.

K: I think around Labor Day. I am out here with my kids and I had to cut it short.

TELCORN

Amb. Scali-Mr. Kissinger

August 22, 1973

10:22 p. m.

K: Hello.

S: Hi, Henry.

K: Yes, John.

S: You know what the AP has already carried.

K: What?

S: That the resignation of Rogers is expected this afternoon.
That is in a bulletin that went at 1:27 p. m.

K: Yeah. Well, I think it's true.

S: Well, I suspect it is true. too. Look, I don't want to bother with the problem that you and I were discussing x insofar except insofar as I have a deadline and I have been trying to get a decision on this for a long time.

K: I'll tell you what my instinct is on this--however, based on ignorance.

S: Go ahead.

K: My instinct is I don't know why we should lump Guam and Puerto Rico even as separate cases or buy them off on Puerto Rico by making a concession on something else. So my instinct would be to hold tight on Puerto Rico and tell them on Guam at some later point we are willing to consider that.

S: Well, that's exactly what my plan is.

K: But, without committing ourselves-- we can definitely do it.

S: I'll say that we will consider. I'll say that if you allow the independistas to begin talking publicly and thereby create a big bruh-ha-ha thereby improving the public standing of the independistas and causing what in effect is a bitter debate which will get into the papers almost every day not only here but throughout the Caribbean. Then, you know, we have a difficult problem, Henry. And when you waive Puerto Rico, you're laying apples and oranges on this.

K: Yeah, except I don't want them to think---you see next year they can still come back to PR no matter what we give them on Guam this year.

ByALB. NARA Date 6/9/69

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E.O. 12958
By NARA Dae 6/9/69

S: They can come back with far less chance of success.

K: Well they can't get into PR if we don't let them.

S: That's true, but at the same time we can continue to have a raging debate on Puerto Rico. Now granted we have 96% of the Puerto Ricans on our side on this, you'll have the Cubans, the Iraquisand the Chileans just raising hell about it all the time. Now I'm quite willing to face that fight and I think we can win it. But the point is, what they will they will then do is put PR back on the list of non-self-governing territories.

K: Well, then we'll get very tough with them and tell them we won't have anything further to do with this Committee.

S: This is one alternative. I don't want to give a nickle on this, but if we can get them to go to Guam under conditions that we can control, ....

K: The only problem is that once they have been in Guam they will go into the Trust Territories.

S: If they do that, we can fight them later.

K: And my frank instinct, and I haven't studied it, and this is not the best day for me for reflective thought, is to hold tight on it.

S: That's my instinct on it too, but we have a 3:00 p.m. meeting on it and after 6 weeks of trying to get the State Dept. to get off its ass on this...we're confronted with the 3:00 meeting.

K: Well, that I promise you will change on two xchax grounds. Decisions will be taken faster and you will have more immediate access.

S: So, my instructions to my guy will be to say no, we're not going to give you a god damn thing.

K: That would be my instinct. But, I may well be wrong.

S: OK, let me work on it further and maybe I can come up with a compromise which is, look, why don't you submit pieces of paper instead of allowing a full fledged debate and then we will talk to you.

K: That may be a way to gain time.

S: OK, good. Thanks, Henry.

K: Bye.

TELCOM Pete Pearson Mr. Kissinger

August 22, 1973

K: Hello.

P: Henry.

K: Pete, how are you?

P: My God, I am thrilled and delighted for the country first and for you second.

K: Well aren't you nice.

P: Oh I tell you it is the best news that I have had in months.

K: Aren't you nice.

P: Oh that is great.

K: Well you won't think once I start harrassing you, but in the meantime.

P: That is allright, that is great. When is it going to go up to the Hill?

K: As soon as the Congress comes back which should be the 3rd or 4th.

P: Yeah. I don't imagine you will have any problems, do you?

K: I don't think so. There is a little question about keeping both positions, but once they think about it they will realize that they will get more rather than less testimony.

P: Absolutely, absolutely. Well sometime I would like to hear the story, but you can't tell me that now.

K: No.

P: Okay...

K: But Pete I hope to have a chance to see you very soon.

P: Sure.

K: When I come back, I will come back no later than the week of Labor Day. I may stay out here next week. Even if he should come back earlier to be with my kids.

P: Right.

K: Are you still coming, no I may not be there that weekend. I suppose I could get you down for lunch or dinner some time next week.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E0.12958
By AB NARA Date 6/9/69

HAK-Peterson

-2-

P: The Hahns are giving a party for us that you have tentatively accepted.

K: That is on the 14th.

P: That is on the 4th.

K: Oh I thought it was on the 14th.

P: No, September 4 th.

K: oh.

P: And if you are going to be there then, I could see you then.

K: I accepted it for the 4th, 14th. Well, I am going to be there on the 4th but then you will be staying over so we could meet on the 5th. I would like to talk to you alone for a bit.

P: No, well what I could do is the afternoon.

K: All right, we'll do the afternoon of the 4th.

P: Yeah, you just set anytime you want, late in the afternoon.

K: Good terrific and many thanks for your help.

P: I am just thrilled for the country first, I can't tell you.

K: Well, I think you know what you have meant to me. And that I hope to be able to draw a lot of inspiration from you.

P: Okay.

K: See you the week of the third. Thank you. Bye.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E0.12958
By A6 NARA Dic 5/9/69

TELCONE

Marilyn Burger Mr. Kissinger

August 22, 1973

B: I don't have any more pressure, Henry, just if you want to hear what is going on here I might tell you about it.

K: Good,

B: Over at the State Department.

K: Wonderful. What is xxx going on?

B: Well they talk about how they feel abput it. I think there is not too much surprise, a certain anticipation on your coming over.

K: Are they happy or...

B: I think that they are...

K: Or backbiting?

B: I think they are hopeful to have the head of power with them. Listen, can you tell me atleast when you heard about this? Because on Saturday you said you hadn't heard anything.

K: No, I got the first inkling late Saturday, and then yesterday.

B: Because you know Rogers' resignation is dated the 16th. Which is last Thursday

K: That is right. That may be I hadn't looked at that.

B: And you didn't know it until last Saturday evening.

K: That is right.

B: Oh, okay.

K: Okay.

B: What about, look one other thing, remember someone once asked the question "How are you going to have a Secretary of State who is going to be having trouble xxx with the Mort Halperins of the world? Is that going to be a problem really?"

HAK Burger

2-

K: I don't think so.

B: You don't. You don't think he is going to press the case.

K: Well that is up to him.

B: Maybe you can offer him a job.

K: [Laughing]

B: Oh I want to tell you one thing, I got into a cab to go over to the State Department and I said the Secretary of State just quit. The taxi driver said Laird.

K: [Laughing]

B: Was the White House mad at what the Secretary said the other day at his press conference?

K: I don't know. I have to run.

B: Well, they will know when you are Secretay.

W

K: Okay.

B: Congratulations.

K: Thank you.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E 0.12958
By AB NARA Date 6/9/67

*

TELCONE

Gov. Connally/Kissinger

10:05 a.m. - 8/23/73

K: Hello.

C: Is that you, Mr. Secretary?

K: That's right, Mr. Secretary.

C: Well, I got tired of calling you Doctor anyway and by god, I'll be
proud to call you Mr. Secretary.

K: I like Excellency, too.

C: All right, all right, I'll call you Excellency.

K: In case you get tired of it.

C: All right, that's great. I know you're busy and I just want to
congratulate you.

K: Well, John I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. I was going to
call you. Will you be in Washington anytime soon?

C: Not before the 10th of September.

K: I am most anxious to talk to you.

C: All right.

K: I probably won't be able to get down to you, but I might.

C: I will let you know. I don't think I will be down before the 10th of
September, Henry, unless something comes up and if I change my
plans I will for sure get in touch with you.

K: All right. You will let me know definitely about the 10th.

C: Yes, I'll be there around the 10th or 11th I know.

K: I would very much like to talk to you then and get your judgement and
also discuss a few personal things.

C: I am tickled to death. I think it's great!

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E.0.12958
By NARA Dae 6/9/69

TELCOM

John McCloy/Kissinger

12:25 p.m. - 8/23/73

(Mrs. McCloy spoke first.)

K: How are you?

MRS. Congratulations, you have got a big job ahead.

K: That's the truth.

MRS. Just a minute. (Leaves to call Mr. McCloy to the phone.)

K: Jack, how are you?

M: Henry, congratulations to you. It's nice of you to call. I just got out of the hospital with a broken vertebrae in my back. Nothing serious, but painful.

K: Is it healing?

M: It is healing. They say it will be painful or discomfortable for thenext 4 or 5 weeks.

K: Do you know Dr. Riland in New York?

M: Dr. Riland?

K: Yes, he's an osteopath who takes care of Nelson and Averell. He's very good with backs. I find that most of the doctors just don't know a damn thing about backs.

M: Dr. Riland. They discharged me Sunday. I have a corset on, and it is less painful.

K: John G ______ had a back problem for 6 months and Riland cured him in a week.

M: What is his first name?

K: Ken.

M: I will put that down.

K: I would urge you to go to him. He's the head physician of U.S. Steel.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E 0.12958
By A. NARA Date 5/9/09

M: OK, thanks very much.

K: Jack, I called you first to thank you for the message you sent through Maw.

M: He seems to have followed through on it.

K: I hope very much that you will let me see you very soon to get your view on what should be done at the State Department and what is needed in our foreign policy.

M: Let me give it thought and when you give me a ring I will be done.

K: Yes, you give it some thought and I will be back the week of the 3rd.

M: OK, I will give it thought and hope to be constructive.

K: You are one of our wisemen.

M: I am very flattered you would call and let me know. In the meantime I will try to do something.

K: I would appreciate it greatly.

M: Thank you very much for calling me.

K: One thing - people, if you could think about some for key experts.

M: Appointees in other words.

K: Yes.

M: What sort of jobs?

K: I am going to try to get the best people in the Department and move them up fast, but I must know who they are -- or outsiders.

M: Let me play with it.

K: Good.

M: Thanks for calling me and I will try to be constructive.

K: Good. Bye, Jack.

TELCONE DAVID ROCKEFELLER - MR. KISSINGER

August 23, 1973 12:45 p.m.

had

R: I am so happy for you Henry, I really am. I think we have/so much bad news over the last several weeks, this is a breath of fresh air.
You will really make a difference.

K: I will make a major effort.

R: I know you will and you are in a better position from there.

K: I think that is probably right.

R: I really do.

K: Aren't you nice to call. Are you going to be in Washington?

R: I will be there next week for a meeting of the International Monetary.

K: You will be coming down for a meeting next week?

R: Yes.

K: I will be still on the west coast. How about the following week?

R: I would love to talk to you, when will you get back?

K: Monday or Tuesday, the 3rd of the 4th.

R: I amplanning to come down on Labor day. Do you know if you will be coming back then.

K: I am almost certain, we can work it out.

R: I would love to have dinner with you on Labor Day evening.

K: If that falls before the 4th, it depends on when the President gets back.

R: I will come down from Maine.

K: Let's aim for that.

R: My number in Maine is 207 276 5492.

K: Okay good I will call you there.

R: I do feel that this will work out with the latitude and xxx freedom. It is good for this country to move on in the international field.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E.O. 12958
By NARA Date 6/9/07

I*

Rockefeller-HAK

-2-

K: I had a press conference and I tried to be as clear as I could.

R: How did it go?

K: They were very friendly.

R: Good.

K: I would like to talk to you about the economic side and ask your advice on some people.

R: I will do so. IXXX am having dinner tomorrow with Doug Dillon.

K: As long as the word doesn't get out. I want to talk to him anyway.

R: It is great to talk with you.

K: I will do my best. Where will we have dinner? On Foxhall Road?

R: That would be fine, or at a restaurant. I will arrange it.

K: We will get in touch.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E.0.12958
By: A6 NARA Date 6/9/09

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E 0.12958
By AB NARA Dae 6/7/07

TelCon:12:52-8/23

Mr. Kissinger:
Averill Harriman

K: Hello.

AH: Hello, Henry.

K: Averill, how are you?

H: Congratulations. I don't suppose you have gotten my telegram yet?

K: No, I haven't but I wanted

H: I wasxk sent you a telegram this morning.

K: Well I wanted to call you to tell you that I am counting on you to be available for advice.

H: Well you know my advice is very cheap and I don't think it is much good

K: No, but I

H: But I wish you every possible conceivable good luck in what you are going to do. I think it is wonderful. Wonderful. I congratulate you and I congratulate the nation.

K: Thank you Averill, but I really hope that we can get you involved in some way again.

H: Well I don't know - I certainly will be glad to do anything I can conceivably can but I am a little humble about giving advice. I will do it.

K: Well, May I call you when the week week

H: Where are you now. Are you in San Clemente.

H: Well we w sent our message to the - Pam and I just wish you all our best wishes - congrautlations along with our good wishes.

K: Well, many thanks Averill and I look forward very

H: ________ around here and sends you her best.

K: Well I look very much forward to seeing you within a week.

- 2 -

H: When will you be back in Washington?

K: I will be back the 3rd or 4th.

H: We will be there.

K: I will call you within a day

H: We are going to be there that week. We are coming in the Tuesday after Labor Day.

K: Right. Well I will call you that week and we will get together.

H: I look forward to seeing you and best of everything. And it is really great news - with the bleak news these days it is the most wonderful news that we have heard.

K: Aren't you nice.

H: Thank you.

K: Thank you Averill and give my love to Pat. (Pam)

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E 0.12958
By AB NARA Date 5/9/69

*

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E0.12958
By NARA Dje 6/9/09

TELCORN

Dr. Kissinger/Tom Braden

August 23, 1973 - 2:17

B: Hello.

K: Tom?

B: Mr. Secretary.

K: How are you?

B: How long have you know this?

K: Oh I really wasn't told until Tuesday night.

B: Tuesday, huh.

K: Yeah.

B: Well/

K: I got a hint of it on Saturday but I really wasn't told til Tuesday.

B: Well I'm really, I want to congratulate you. I just think it's great.
I just think it's just marvelous.

K: Well, you're a great friend.

B: Now I realize you're busy you haven't got much time for things but I want to remind you, I want to ask you about something. You remember that story I told you I thought I'd use about standing in line with your family.

K: Where is that?

B: I suppose Berlin.

K: I was never in Berlin.

K: Well, wherever you were. Can you tell where it was, do you remember?

K: Well, tell me the story again.

B: The story is I heard from a girl who used to work for me whose father was a lawyer in Berlin and she said that when she first heard you name, we were out in California she said I remember that family. She said his father was a school superintendent and when we went to get our exit visas we were standing in line and they were at another counter in another line and my brother Robert was out in the street misbehaving

- 2 -

I mean he wasn't standing in line he was not doing what father
said he father
told him and I remember father saying to mother, well if Bobby
doesn't show up, we'll just have to take the little Kissinger boy. I
looked over and there was the school superintendent's son in his
lederhosen standing correctly with his family as he should have been.

K: I have no objection. I can't confirm it because that's somebody else's story.

B: Yeah, that's right.

K: I couldn't know that.

B: No, you couldn't know it.

K: In the nature of things I couldn't know it.

B: What year was it?

K: Well, if she's telling the truth then it's--if she's thinking of the same person then it was 1938.

B: '38. How old were you, about 15?

K: 15.

B: Yeah, and where would it have been?

K: That would have bee, you know, if she's thinking of the same event
it would have been in Stuttgart.

B: In Stuttgart. And what, Henry, w how many people were in your family?

K: Four.

B: You have a brother and a sister, too.

K: No, just a brother and my two parents.

B: A brother and your parents, yeah. Well I just thought I might use it,
you know as it's a marvelously American story for Christ's sake. I
mean your story is marvelously American.

K: I think that's right.

B: And I'm just pleased, I'm just chortling, I'm just--I just couldn't be
more pleased. I think it's the greatest thing that could have happened
and is going to save the whole works.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E0.12958
By: NARA Date 5/9/07

K: I hope so.

B: All right.

K: You've been a great friend, Tom. I hope to see you and Joanie as soon as I get back.

B: Yea, incidentally, we're still going to do that broadcast I hope.

K: After my confirmation.

B: Yeah.

K: No, I promised to you and I'll do it.

B: All right.

K: I don't think I should make any public comment on substance until after I'm confirmed.

B: I agree. The confirmation should be a cinch.

K: I have no sense that there will be any major problems.

B: I don't think so. They're going to get mad at you about the bugging and that's been taken care of and they're going to get mad at you about bombing and that's been taken care of.

K: Yeah.

B: I think the President's taken care of both of those for you.

K: Well, I think, I think we can, I don't anticipate a major problem.

B: No, there won't be. Besides, you know all those guys, many of whom I know even better than you have a basic admiration and respect for you.

K: Well, they've been friends, you know, through a long period.

B: Yeah, well anyway I just wanted to tell you I'm just pleased as I can be

K: Tom, you're terrific.

B: OK, So long.

K: Thank you, Tom, good-bye.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E012058
By M.N. Attn. Date 06-04

TELCONE

Dobrynin/Kissinger

2:52 p.m. - 8/23/73

K: Hello.

D: Hello, Henry, how are you?

K: OK, Anatol.

D: Yes, I just receive information from Moscow that there was a meeting of the Politburo to discuss news about your nomination. And they make a decision first

K: To appoint me to the Politburo.

D: Almost. (Laugs) You probably know all our secrets. Secondly, they would like you to get a permanent visa to go to Moscow and just to call you "Excellency" when you come. Putting jokes aside, I receive a telegram from Mr. Brezhnev and Gromyko and they ask me to give congratulations to you on your nomination to the post of Secretary of State. Mr. Brezhnev and Mr. Gromyko appreciate confidential and fruitful contact established with you and hope that you will continue to pay necessary attention to the development and strengthening of American relations in the future. Gromyko hope to see you during the General Assembly session and he will then congratulate you personally.

K: Well, I will send them a formal reply but you can tell them now that the relationship that's been established will only be deepened. It will certainly never been neglected.

D: I understand. And I will mention that to them.

K: You know I hope you and I will continue our weekly luncheons. Well, everything will remain unchanged as far as you and I are concerned except that we can give direct orders now so the double bookkeeping can stop.

D: This is important really. And Henry, do you expect to go to the General Assembly.

K: Yes, I expect to be confirmed by then.

D: By this time. You will be returning on the 4th.

K: That's what it looks like, yeh.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority: E012058
By: MW
Date: 06/04/58

2

D: It looks like to best of my knowledge. When do you expect to be over all these decisions? I know that you don't know exactly but by 20th it will be?

K: I would think so. It depends how much trouble the Senate might want to make, but it doesn't look as if

D: No, it doesn't look - I think the reaction was really very good and my impression here in the town when I spoke today on several occasions from State Department people and so on was really, I should say a very good response. Quite frankly. So once again I would like to congratulate you on my own once again.

K: Well, Anatol, you know I consider you not just a colleague but a personal friend.

D: You are staying there the whole week or you are coming back?

K: I'll probably stay the whole week. Can I call you Monday morning - maybe you would like to come out.

D: OK. Monday morning you will call?

K: Yeh.

D: I think it's a nice idea. I think you will have rush on Tuesday.

K: Wednesday.

D: Wednesday, so it's nothing to do with me. I'm joking of course. Because today at a reception there was a talk about this thing. So on Monday you will let me know whether it is possible for you. I think one day a little bit later to think it over about General Haig.

K: Exactly. Why don't you count on Thursday. Friday I have something, so why don't we aim for Thursday.

D: Thursday. So it will be this way - Thursday I will arrive and then I can stay over night and then I can go to San Francisco to our place.

K: Right. Good. Or arrive Wednesday night, I think it's better.

D: So Wednesday night it will be and then staying Thursday and then on Friday I can go to San Francisco to the Counsel General. OK?

K: Absolutely.

3

D: But I have to check with you once again Monday.

K: Yeh, let me just confirm it on Monday in case some unexpected thing comes up.

D: All right, then I will expect a call from you on Monday in case anything comes up, OK.

K: Right.

D: Well, once again best wishes Henry. Oh, by the way I receive - you remember you raised about this publication of this Khruschev - they say they don't like this idea, quite frankly.

K: All right. I don't want it to happen and now that I'm at State I just think it's a bad idea.

D: This why he asked me to discuss with you, but

K: Look, Anatol, I can't be eager to have it published.

D: Another story it was our communications with you it will be published (?)
(Laughts) You understand?

K: I know.

D: I'm joking. They really feel it's too early and though it really was published some of them, but it makes an undesirable precedent.

K: I agree with you.

D: The departure would do serious damage to the confidentiality in our relations.

K: I agree.

D: OK, Henry, thank you very much. So on Monday I will await your call.

K: I'll see you soon. Bye.

D: OK
By: WW. 10.20.87
Date: 10/20/87

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E0.12958
By NARA Dae 6/9/69

TELCORN

Dobrynin/Kissinger

2:52 p.m. - 8/23/73

K: Hello.

D: Hello, Henry, how are you?

K: OK, Anatol.

2

K: Yeh.

K: Wednesday.

K: Absolutely.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E.0.12958
By NARA Date 6/9/09

DECLASSIFIED
Authority E0.12958
By A6 NARA Date 6/9/69

K: Right.

D: Another story it was our communications with you it will be published (?) (Laughs) You understand?

K: I know.

D: I'm joking. They really feel it's too early and though it really was published some of them, but it make an undesirable precedent.

K: I agree with you.

K: I agree.

K: I'll see you soon. Bye.