TelCon:9/16/73 (Home) 11:50

Mr. Kissinger/

The President:

K: Hello.

P: Hi, Henry.

K: Mr. President.

P: Where are you. In New York?

K: No, I am in Washington. I am working. I may go to the football game
this afternoon if I get through.

P: Good. Good. Well it is the opener. It is better than television.
Nothing new of any importance of is there?

K: Nothing of very great consequence. The Chilean thing is getting
consolidated and of course the newspapers and bleeding because a
pro-Communist government has been overthrown.

P: Isn't that something. Isn't that something.

K: I mean instead of celebrating - in the Eisenhower period we would
be heros.

P: Well we didn't - as you know - our hand doesn't show on this one
though.

K: We didn't do it. I mean we helped them. ________ created the
conditions as great as possible(??)

P: That is right. And that is the way it is going to be played. But
listen, as far as people are concerned let me say they aren't going
to buy this crap from the Liberals on this one.

K: Absolutely not.

P: They know it is a pro-Communist government and that is the way it is.

K: Exactly. And pro-Castro.

P: Well the main thing was. Let's forget the pro-Communist. It was
an anti-American government all the way.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12958
BY NAR. Dae 6/16/84

- 2 -

K: Oh, wildly.

P: And your expropriating. I notice the memorandum you sent up of
the confidential conversation ______ set up a policy for reim-
bursement on expropriations and cooperation with the United States
for breaking relations with Castro. Well what the hell that is a great
treat(?) if they thing that. No don't let the columns and the bleeding
on that

K: Oh, oh it doesn't bother me. I am just reporting it to you.

P: Yes, you are reporting it because it is just typical of the crap we
are up against.

K: And the unbelievable filthy hypocrisy.

P: We know that.

K: Of these people. When it is South Africa, if we don't overthrow
them there they are raising hell.

P: Yes, that is right.

K: But otherwise things are fainly quiet. The Chinese are making very
friendly noises. I think they are just waiting for my confirmation
to make a proposal.

P: When you say their noises are friendly, what do you mean?

K: Well their newspapers have stopped attacking us. They are blasting
the Russians like crazy. And they have blasted them so much with
Pompidou there that he is embarrassed. And Sy Sultzberger(?) had
been denied a visa so we called them this to say that he was not like
Reston. And within 24 hours he got a visa.

P: That is good.

K: You know that they wouldn't do unless they wanted to ingratiate them-
selves.

P: Right, right.

K: And I told you from the European front that is going along very well
but I think they ought to play it cool until next spring. XX

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Authentic EU 12/558

BY NAR. Die 6. 1964

- 3 -

P: Looks like you might get confirmed perhaps Thursday of this week.

K: It looks like the Committee will vote on it on Tuesday and then
Wednesday or Thursday I might get confirmed and then

P: My idea is to have the swearing-in at the White House not the
State Department.

K: Oh, absolutely. I mean if you were willing

P: I thought we would have it in the East Room. Make it a big deal
and bring over some of the State Department people but basically
let's face it. The moment you start going to a Department to swear
in - remember Eliott wanted me to come and swear him in and

K: No, no Mr. President. If you were willing

P: Well we are - I am. I told Haig already we are going to have an
East Room ceremony.

K: I would be honored to have it in the White House. And in any event
I am going to work out with Haig and Ziegler when announcements
have to be made on foreign policy matters, which should be made
at the White House and which at the State Department, but with the
opposite view of Rogers. That is to move as much in the White House
as we can.

P: Yes, where it is good.

K: I mean when it is good news

P: Let's say - let the White House do it.

K: Let the White House do it. It is no - I think what we have to do - what
I will do is to show the total unity of the State Department and the
White House.

P: _________ the appointments you see if the double things

K: That is right.

P: We'll plan that.

K: The head of the Foreign Service Association came in to see me and

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E.O. 12158

BY order of the
NAR. Dye 6, 1964

*

- 4 -

he said we will defend your prerogative. I said you will do nothing
of the kind. If you want to do something, do excellent work for the
President and that will give you prerogative, but don't you tell me
the Secretary of State has any special prerogatives.

P: He said we will defend your prerogatives. That is probably what they had told Bill.

K: I mean that is the attitude of the Foreign Service.

P: That must be changed Henry, that should be changed.

K: Mr. President, that will be changed. These guys are so selfish and so self-centered. Well, with your approval as soon as I am confirmed I would like to go over a list with you

P: I am ready.

K: And

P: In fact I don't have to wait. We can go over it any time

K: I can do it anytime you are ready. I have already discussed it with Haig and he told me he has mentioned it to you.

P: Sure, anytime you are ready. Bring in the list and we can go over it so we will waste no time. That is what I am for. So when ever you want to you come in.

K: Because I am planning to change every Assistant Secretary except one. And all Under Secretaries, except Rush.

P: Well have a good time at the game.

K: Thank you Mr. President

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12458
By NAR 126104

TELCON

Mr. Kissinger/President

9/16/73 12:40 p.m.

N: Oh Henry, before you get off for the game, I was going to ask you about a couple of things--first with regard to Gustaf, will there be a public funeral on that or what is the situation--do you know.

K: Probably--and we can send somebody--

N: Well I was wondering just as a gesture to the Swedes if maybe Mrs. Nixon ought to go to that.

K: Well that would be a little too high a level--can we wait until we see how the election goes?

N: Yeh, that's what I had in mind--but my point is it might not be too high level in the sense that it is very personal--in the sense that you know what I mean--we've -- we shouldn't let Palme --whatever his name is--be -- the Swedish people generally--

K: But to go from total cutoff to Mrs. Nixon is an enormous step--

N: Yeh, I see, but even if the election came the other way--

K: Oh the election--well then the trouble, frankly would be that it would look like too eager but--

N: Right, okay--it just occurred to me as a possibility, but I can see the point there.

K: But we can make a first gesture whoever wins by sending some senior person in--

N: In other words, we are stuck with whoever wins--somebody has to go.

K: Election is today, Mr. President

N: Yeh, I know, I know.

N:

K: That's right./ Now the other thing that the State people have been checking -- and it's something I'm totally open on--is going to that west African area--it would be necessary to take something along--

K: That I think would be an excellent--

N: --contributions and so forth, but you might run that by. The other thing they have asked her about is the French-American friendship

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thing that they've been trying to get her to go to Finland and we have put them on the back burner because of the possibility of Europe, but as we know that's out now, between us, but would you check those two items

K: I will check

N: If either appears to be useful diplomatically, I'm sure I can convince her to go, now remember her trip to Peru and Africa-- was very successful.

K: Spectacular success.

N: And it's the gesture and also keeps us in a positive mood rather than just sort of appearing to be sitting around here.

K: I've already begun to talk about that West Africa area-- the drought area and I'm strongly in favor of it, let me immediately check what it is she could bring--

N: That's right.

K: And I think that we could do fairly soon.

N: That's right. Right. And of course, we have these State dinner things-- but we could get those-- a couple of them out of the way and go out there.

month

K: It isn't a question of 4 weeks, but within the next 3 months she could easily do it.

N: Yeh, she could do a dinner, then the trip only needs to take 4 or 5 days.¹

K: That's right.

I'll have a recommendation for you tomorrow--

N: And check the Finnish thing-- On the Swedes it appears to me that if there is a public funeral, whoever wins the election, you've got to send somebody--

K: Absolutely--

N: And I don't know-- or have we got anybody there-- we don't have an ambassador there--

K: We have no one there-- it wouldn't be an insult to send-- we only have very low-level persons. But we can-- I will have a recommendation for you first thing in the morning--

N: Fine, fine, Okay, Henry. Thank you.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12/58

By NAR. Dic. 6/19

TELCONE

Ziegler/Kissinger

9:56 a.m. - 9/17/73

K: Hello.

Z: Henry, you know there's this story over the weekend that said that he (Moynihan) might come on to State and there are stories that say he won't. How do you want to handle the thing? What are the facts?

K: The facts are that I offered him something and he first turned it down and now he's reconsidering it.

Z: The story this morning - did you see it where he sent a cable to his wife to disregard it.

K: He sent a cable to his wife to get her to change her mind.

Z: Oh, I see.

K: I would say I'm talking to a lot of people. What I said to the press is that I'm talking to a lot of people and I haven't made any specific offers. Well, that goes a little too far - say I'm talking to a lot of people

Z: And at the right time you will make any announcements.

K: That's right. It's totally inappropriate for me to say anything now.

Z: And should we say you talked to Moynihan?

K: Say, certainly Moynihan is an old friend and I talked to him at great length.

Z: Yeh. And then if they get into what you offered or not say'Look, this is not the right time to talk about it.'"

K: I'm not in a position to offer anything now. OK. Now when do you want to get together? I'm going to keep pressing you on this.

DECLASSIFIED

*

TELCORN

September 17, 1973/9:58 a.m.

Dobrynin/HAK

K: Hello.

D: Hello Henry.

K: Anatol, how are you.

D: How are you?

K: Oh good.

D: Well your voice sound and clear as usual. Henry, I just received a telegram from Gromyko about present arrangement and he would like me urgently to be in touch with you because he just already left Moscow for New York and as we discussed about this one about 24th with you is quite alright except with but 24th with you in New York but as for here in Washington he couldn't make it on a 1st as we originally discussed with you because on the First he has to leave for Moscow again. They would like him to be back. So is it possible to arrange it with the President and then he will give dinner or lunch in your honor at our Embassy the 26th or 27th. Or if you prefer some other but he is wantd today to get back on the 1st.

K: 26th or 27th. That's Thursday or Friday.

D: No, I guess its Wednesday and Thursday.

K: Wednesday I can't be there.

D: OK. The 27th or 28th. Is the 28th alright.

K: Let me try for the 27th or 28th.

D: OK. Then I will call you later. OK. Because I will call you then from New York within four hours.

K: OK Anatol. I'll let you know. Can we aim for the 28th. Its better for me.

D: the 27th or 28th. We will come by in one day.

K: So you come to me on the 24th and I come to you on the 28th.

D: And he would like to meet with the President on the same date.

K: OK. Bye.

DECLASSIFIED

E.O. 12458

By order of the President. Date 6/16/64

TELCON

Senator McGovern/Mr. Kissinger

6:03 p.m. 9/17/73

M: Henry

K: How are you George?

M: Well pretty good, I just got back from a long trip across the country-- I was out on that telethon in Los Angeles. Henry, I'm going to do something that will be very hard for me personally--I'm going to vote against your confirmation, just as a symbolic conviction against the policy we pursued in Indochina the last four years, I'm going to explain that I think you'll be an effective Secretary of State and I'm going to do everything I can to cooperate with you and I think you are a talented and highly able man and that pragmatic grounds, I think the Senate should confirm you. But it is better for even of those of us that have had some policy differences to be in a position to be in a position to be able to ask questions on the public record as we can in your role as Secretary of State, but that I just feel I have to pass the symbolic "no" vote not against you personally of course I think you know how I feel about you personally

K: Presumably Right.

M: But it is really the policy of the Administration and it won't be a pleasant thing for me to do

K: Well I understand

M: I wanted you to know I made a definite decision to do it, after grappling with it and really not with very much joy.

K: No, I understand and appreciate the courtesy of your calling me.

M: And after you are confirmed some time after things slow down a little for you I wish sometime the two of us could get together, maybe at the Mankiewicz's or some others and just kind of talk about--

K: I would appreciate this and you know my high regard for you which is not not affected in slightest by this.

M: I appreciate that. And I did want you to know it before we said anything publicly.

K: Well, I appreciate your doing this.

M: All right Henry.

K: Hope to see you soon

M: The best to you. All righty.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: EC 12/5/8
By: JONATHAN R. D.

TELCOM

Mr. Kissinger/Senator Kennedy

6:12 p.m. 9/17/73

T: Henry

H": Ted

T: I didn't know whether maybe some time later in the week or I could do it next week if it would be more convenient for you that I could talk to you, I don't know how your--

K: No, I'd be delighted to do it. Can we wait until after the committee has voted which will be tomorrow

T: Sure, sure. Fine.

K: When would you like to do it--

T: I don't know, I was thinking maybe Thursday, I have to go out of town Friday or I could do it--

K: Then let's do it Thursday

T: Thursday, maybe afternoon some time?

K: Sure

T: The morning I have something

K: How about later in the afternoon on Thursday around 6:00

T: I think 6:00 would be all right. If I don't have to go up to Boston

K: I can do it at 5:00

T: That'd be fine, I think that'd be better.

K: Okay, where should we meet.

T: I can do it anyplace--I've got actually a room over at the capitol that is quiet and good or I can come down, whatever is themost--

K: Could we talk to each other Thursday morning-- And set the place. If I don't get caught in meetings, I'd be glad to come up.

T: Wonderful.

K: Good, see you then.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12558

BY JOHN F. LEE 6/16/73

*

TELCORN

Mr. Kissinger/Bryce Harlow

6:15 p.m. 9/17/73

H: Hello sir

K: How are you?

H: Should I give my commission or congratulations?

K: They are going to vote tomorrow whatever that means. McGovern just called and said he'd vote against me.

H: Did he?

K: Yeh, he said it is the hardest decision he had to make in a long time --it's giving him enormous pain and he hopes to meet with me socially afterwards and it's a heart wrenching thing for him and I know how much he likes me and admires me but he has to make a stand against the administration.

H: Is it because of the war in Cambodia?

K: Yeh

H: Wire taps?

K: Wire taps he didn't mention. It is our policy. He'd make a public statement saying he thinks I'd be an effective Secretary of State and --but he's got to make a protest

H: Well

K: It will trigger 10 others wouldn't it?

H: It could, but the quote I was given was 50 or was it 15--which was it--

K: Fulbright --you know our friend Saffire did me a lot of good, they let him into the record and there was apparently something in the New Yorker about it and they all made statements they weren't tough on me --I mean that they were not soft on me and then Fulbright said he is in a terrible agony how to vote, because he doesn't want to be in the position of endorsing the administration--is it possible that he'd vote against me?

H: I had thought not. For the Chairman of the Committee on Foreign Relations I think it would be utterly irresponsible. I've seen it done--you remember Jack Miller of Ohio who voted against Earle Buttz. They did it in his case

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because he was just a political chicken, but here of course you have
______ and a ______ man in the Senate. And I guess he's capable
of it,

K: But yo don't think McGovern is going to trigger a lot --some others with him?

H: I don't think many--some maybe--he could pick up Hughes, obviously.

K: No, no, I mean on the committee

H: Humphrey already said he'd support you--Symington said so, Church says
he'd support you

K: Has Church said so?

H: I thought he called and told you that after it was announced.

K: So had McGovern (laughing) McGovern told Tom Braden he would.
He told Arthur Schlesinger he'd vote for me.

H: Maybe he's been wrestling with his conscience. --His conscience finally won.
I can't see much of a ripple, there may be a few.

K: Ted Kennedy called and said he wanted to get together with me later this week.
From that I assume he's not voting against me.
The son-of-a-bitch can't be planning to vote against me and to see me.

H: Sure he can. Of course he can.

K: Really?

H Take for example Cong. Jack ______ of Texas--LBJ's closest friend
in Congress--who is now investigating Nixon properties--he has asked to
come in Wednesday to bring a doctor from Galveston, Texas or Houston to
get his picture taken with the President

K: Are we doing it?

flies

H: Probably. Probably--just on the premise that you catch more flies with
honey than vinegar--doesn't cost anything much. But it will cost if we refuse
it. Nixon Be on the winning vindictive ground if they're trying to hurt
us, so we won't see you. A President "has to rise above that sort of thing"
so he is magnanimous--the other guy is mean--so the congressman takes that
picture and drags it over the district to show his meaness to the President
is not resented--that's what he wants it for. Now I can see Kennedy voting
against you and then eagerly coming down to get your picture taken with him
at your office.

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K: Do you think I'd see him if he voted against me?

H: You would have to later, if not then.
You can't just start building up a ~~series of enemies in the Senate.~~
You've got to get the job done.

K: But Ted told me personally he'd vote for me.

H: I think he will, but of course like you said, so did McGovern.
I think--you might get a hand full of these far-out types but that doesn't
hurt you in my book.

K: It doesn't hurt me to have McGovern vote against me.

H: I don't think it does. As a matter of fact in a way it helps. If you get the
full support out of the weird-o's

K: Do you think Fulbright--we 've gone over that.

H: I can't imagine that--earns rather severe censure

K: From whom?

H: Well, you'll get some--there will be some people who will write about that.
You're going up there with a statement that is ______ and honey and
the answer is the Chairman of the committee votes against you--and Teddy
---response to the effert of Dr. Kissinger, met with continuing hostility
by the ______ committee--there is just no way to satisfy Senator Fulbright-
that kind of stuff will be written--we couldn't care less of course.

K: He did say--there is no ~~sex~~ worry about going to NY next week on the 24th

H: There is no question of your confirmation obviously, there is a little wonder-
ment now if McGovern makes a big ~~deal~~ out of it, I bet he doesn't.
Maybe be a little patter of feet out of a handful of people saying I'll vote
my conscience too, but there won't be much of it and the extent of it will
be limited to that type.

K: Otherwise the meeting went very well. Once you recognize what they are
doing, they were making a record, they were sort of weeping about the
wiretapping and they went over the names and who did this and who did that
--and but you would expect that. And then they asked about Chile--but that
was all easy.

H: They get you in those areas, then there is no contest.

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H: So friend McGovern wants to vote against the administration at your expense.

K: That's what he said.
If I wanted to work on him, I'd probably change his mind again.

H: I don't think it hurts you to have him vote against you--as long as he doesn't have a whole lot of allies and I don't think he can possibly get them.

K: Get allies? I don't know whom he can get on the committee--maybe Church.
I don't think he's making a fight of it

H: He's going to say quietly "no".
What about Case?

K: I think he'll vote for me.
His conduct was very conciliatory.

H: The only place where Fulbright was walking away from you at all was on these taps.

K: No Fulbright was saying he didn't want to endorse our policy which he had opposed for 5 years.

H: Well these damn fools can easily say he's voting for you but not for policy

K: That's what I told him--it was not an endorsement of policy, but my fitness to be Sec. of State.

H: Well this is about the last chance I can call you Doctor--

K: Okay, Bryce, talk to you soon.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E0 12/58
By: NAR. Dae 6/1/69

TELCON

Mark Childs/HAK

September 17, 1973/6:45 p.m.

K: Hello.

C: Hello Henry. We've been away. We've been in Mexico and heard some very good things about you down there. Rabasa spoke warmly of you.

K: He's a good friend.

C: He's good isn't he. I like that crowd down there. Of course they were terribly upset by the Chilean thing.

K: I'll bet. They were close friends.

C: I know they were. Mrs. Allende was there just before the coup. I think its tragic. Well, Henry, I've just been talking to some of the committee and they think you may get by on Thursday.

K: Get confirmed on Thursday?

C: They think so unless Senator Aboress... he can blow the whole thing. But they are hopeful they'll be able to fight that off. I talked to Bill and one or two others and the question was as you know Sparkman and Case were successful. Is the Monday commitment absolutely important Henry. I mean you should be up there on Monday at the U.N.

K: No, I can delay it but it would be sort of humiliating. I won't go up and give the speech unless I'm confirmed.

C: You can't go as Secretary Designate.

K: I don't think it fair to the Senate.

C: Aren't you going up for the Dinner Project Hope on the 25th. Nelson is organizing that.

K: Yeah. I think if for some reason I weren't confirmed by Tuesday I wouldn't go for that either.

C: oh, I think that will be alright. It's been a hell of a time hasn't it?

K: A little longer than I anticipated.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E.O. 12158

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*

C: When will you get to China?

K: In the last third of October. You know I've got organized here first.

C: I know it. Things look a little better out there now don't they.

K: I think the worst is over.

C: Apparently he handled that Congress with the greatest skill in the world.

Wife Jane

W: Hello, congratulations and all that. I didn't write a note. You've got to many notes to answer. Our prayers are with you. We were thrilled. That's the best news that has happened in God knows how long.

K: Many thanks I hope to see you soon.

C: I hope to be up there if you're going to speak on Monday.

K: I'm going to speak on Monday and also a lot of the Europeans. I have an appointment with Ohera scheduled Monday.

C: Well, as I say I talked to Bill and Carl Marcy and others and I think they're quite hopeful.

K: Good.

C: What Jane said we both feel.

K: You've been marveous friends and I hope to see you soon.

C: We were up at North Eastern 3 days after the appointment was announced and Nelson was exultant.

K: He's spectacular.

C: OK, thanks Henry, bye.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12958

BY JOHN D. MCDONALD The 6/1/64

TELCONE

Secretary Rush/HAK

September 17, 1973/6:58 p.m.

K: Hello.

R: Hello Henry.

K: Ken, how are you?

R: I'm fine thanks.

K: I've found out in the meantime my over-eager assistant has already
talked to you.

R: I was calling to make a date with you tomorrow.

K: Right.

R: What I wanted to see you about I can tell you now if you want to byt
some of its ... it has to do with section 10 and 13. As you know, I
went to see Bill Fulbright about these and I've been seeing a great
many Seantors. Clay Pell has come around but Wayne Hayes has
insisted that we will have no State Bill and there will be no USIA bill
and no AID Bill without Section 13.

K: Which is that. The Base Agreements.

R: No, that is the one having to do with our supplying information at
the request of a majority of either foreign relations or foreign affairs.
Anything they want except direct communications with...

K: But we can't agree to this.

R: Excatly. Well he calledup today and wantd to know if I would come and
see him and I went up at 5:30 and just left and he said that he and
Fulbright had talked about this thing on the way back from England.
They just got back from England and they were willing to make. They
understood my points about the State Department they said and they
said he would not have Section 13 or Section 10 in the State Dept. Bill
if we would not fight including Section 13 in the USIA and the AID Bill,
which I think Henry, we ought to give very serious thought to because
as you know the reason we can't have it in State is not only personnel
records. It also has to do with the climate, no one would talk to us,
we wouldn't have access to all the ....

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E.O. 1258

By: J. R. SAR, Dir. 6/16/84

K: Yes but this way they can get all the projected AID programs, all the poles.

R: They can get AID programs projected which means whatever they want out of AID and whatever they want out of STATE.

K: Out of USIA.

R: out of USIA, I'm sorry. But they would not come after State. Now of course we have to look at this in terms of are there someday maybe next year saying, well, we've got it from USIA and Aid. We ought to also extend it to State but I think by that time we can take care of this thing and I think there is a lot of merit to it.

K: Well let me think about it. Can I think about it overnight.

R: Absolutely. Now Henry, I don't like it obviously. No one liked it but in the climate that we are today there isn't too damn much we can hold back from them of a reasonable nature. And at least in AID and USIA we have no problems of dealing with other governments. getting information from other governments. The intelligence community giving us information it needs. Of this sort of thing, State is the main thing. God knows I don't like it but it may be the lesser of 2 evils and it also, in terms of your going in, with an open policy, we avoid an all out confrontation again with the veto which is also in the USIA and AID Bills, the veto of those and then on a continuing resolution for all three for the rest of the year.

K: Well let me talk to the President about this tomorrow. He feels very strongly.

R: I know it. Everything is in good shape as far as your confirmation is concerned.

K: It looks that way. The Committee is going to vote tomorrow. McGovern will probably vote against it.

R: He will? Well, that won't hurt you.

K: You're going to be there tomorrow for the reception of Bhuto is that correct?

R: Yes and I'll be chairing on through. OK Henry, Bye.

K: Bye.

DECLASSIFIED

Authentic
E072558
BY NARAYAN PUNE 06/01/94

TELCOM

President/HAK

September 17, 1973/7:13 p.m.

K: Hello Mr. President

P: How did you get along today?

K: Well they kept me up there for 6 hours. Largely because of Safire's article blasting them last week for being too gentle with me.

P: Safire blasted you.

K: Blasted them for being too easy

P: Why in the hell did he do that?

K: Well, he said they should ask me more searching questions about the wiretaps.

P: What a jackass. Is he off his rocker.

K: Well, he's on that wiretap kick.

P: Yeah, but for God's sake, Safire knows very well. You know how that happened you know. He was talking to Henry Brandon. Hoover picked it up. We didn't have a thing to do with it. The first thing you and I ever heard of it Henry was when it came out now.

K: Well, Mr. President, as it turns out he was put on a tap when we were in Rumania.

P: Is that right. And neither of us ever knew about it and we would have discontinued it immediately. Anyway, so what a silly thing to have a next Secretary of State screwing around with peasant getting tapped like William Safire who knows damn well he's not suspected of a thing.

K: Well, they didn't go into much of him. They just went again and again procedures and I kept hitting them. I said, now gentlemen, what I recommend is that if you're interested that you compare it with the procedures of previous administrations.

P: Good.

K: I'm in no position to say it but I've been told that it was done for the same purposes in previous administrations.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12558
By NAR. Die 6/1/84

-2-

P: And in much greater numbers.

K: That's right. And then Muskie kept coming after that. He said did previous Administrations tap for leaks or for national security.

P: Both.

K: I said, excatly, my information is that both but I recommend that if you are that concerned about it make a formal request.

P: You know Henry, if you're up again. I don't know...I'd give Muskie a call tomorrow and say the President would be very glad to turn it over Senator but it's your responsibility when the names come out. I'll put it to them. Believe me if they want to play these games. Don't let them get away with that.

K: No, they are going to vote tomorrow morning.

P: Well, it'll be unanimous..

K: No, McGovern called and said, you know how much I like you Henry, You know how much I admire you and I want to work with you but my conscience forces me to protest against the policies to vote against you.

P: That gets you the word on McGovern doesn't it.

K: Well, I said to him Senator. This does not affect my estimate of you. An ambiguous statement.

P: You know it's the best thing that could ever happen. With our conservative friends to have McGovern vote against you. We need it.

K: Exactly. That doesn't disturb me. So then they went into Chile.

P: Remember on McGovern though. Never let the sob in again now, believe me. Never let him in again. Not socially or otherwise. Never forget this sort of thing. He can't give you that kind of crap. That's what he's trying to do, vote against you and then be for you. No.

K: To be for me where it doesn't cost my anything. To be quietly for me and to be publicly against me. On Chile they, I said it states the fact that this was a violently anti-American government.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E.C. 12/25/8
By: NAR. The 6/16/84

- 3 -

P: I don't care about the communists. They're against us.

K: And it was a violently anti-American government. That it was its own incompetence that got it into these difficulties. I said certainly we didn't give any aid but they cancelled 250 million dollars worth of loans which has the same practical consequence as AID and that was more aid than they've ever received and nevertheless they mismanaged the country into a total... So they got off that subject. On substance they're afraid to tackle me.

P: They don't dare. That McGovern, doesn't that prove that total hypocrisy of the liberals though Henry. If you ever had any doubt about it. All of the friends of yours that have, the Bradons, and the rest, what's this all about.

K: Absolutely. They're cowards. That's the worse thing. Total cowards. But they're going to vote tomorrow. Fulbright was weeping around about your statement on Sept. 12 or whenever, about the defense budget and I said well, that's our conviction, he said do you share it, I said absolutely, he said, are you going to,

P: My statement or the press conference.

K: The statement about the state of the union, the second state of the Union.

P: That was on the Defense.

K: Are you going to vote these views before our Committee and I said I don't think Mr. Chairman that it's a good idea to make treaties now what I'll testify to before the Committee because I expect that you want me to be truthful but I can tell you now that's the position I'll defend before your committee. He moved right off that one.

P: Well.

K: He said is that bipartisanship and I said, Mr. Chairman, I have to make one thing clear. Bipartisanhip doesn't mean we have to accept your point of view. It just means we have to give a respectful hearing.

P: Great. Was this public?

K: That was Executive Session.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: EC 12/25/88

BY NAR. D. E. 6/16/88

- 4 -

P: I wish it were public.

occasions for

K: Well, there will be many/public sessions. I don't think they are all
that eager to tackle me on substance.

P: Never. Now they're going to vote tomorrow, and that's Thursday and
then Wednesday probably bring it on the floor you thing. Wednesday or
Thursday. Mike Mansfield won't be against you do you think?

K: No, Mike was very helpful.

P: Mike is a decent man and he's against us but he knows we're honest
and we respect him for his honesty. Isn't that it?

K: That's right. He'll be opposed to us on Cambodia and a number of things.

P: Was he helpful?

K: He asked decent questions. The sort of thing on which you can't lose.
What are you going to do with the intelligence organization in the State
Dept. Are you going to give the younger officers a chance? And the
great thing I could tell him what you had told me at the very first meeting
when I talked to you in New York.

P: Did you make a little speech I hope.

K: Oh yes, I told him the very first thing the President discussed with me
before my first meeting, my first substantive discussion concerned the
very points you are now making.

P: q That's the first time we ever met.

K: That's right. I said the President repeated that instruction before
I took this, before he offered me this nomination and since and that's
one of the charges that I carry out with the greatest pleasure.

P: Good. Your ordeals over. Not much of an ordeal.

K: It's like apress conference in a sense you have to be up there all the
time and I don't go in there with notes so I do it extemporaneously and
I don't look things up but it wasn't a real ordeal.

P: The thing about a press conference which of course makes it more
difficult is that when millions are listening and the world is listening.
It's the same kind of thing.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority EO 12588
BY QAN MAR 16 1994

- 5 -

K: But the concentration is much greater in a press conference, and particularly with this press corp.

P: Don't worry about them. In the end we'll win.

K: No question about that.

P: Tell me about the Chinese? You really think they're going to come around?

K: Oh, no question. You know the Philadelphia Symphony is there.

P: ] It is there. I didn't know whether they accepted them or not.

K: Oh yeah, they got there yesterday and Mrs. Mau in a silk dress came to their.

P: Silk dress!!! Instead of wearing that horrible costume.

K: Excatly. Came to their concert

P: How was it received?

K: Very warmly and he said at the reception afterwards he greeted by referring...first there were banners in the hall creating a long list of friendship between the Chinese and American peoples and at the reception afterwards he greeted Ormandy by referring to the Phil. Orchestra as 1940 benefit concert and stating that this act of support for the Chinese people made it feel as though they had known each other for a long time. He said Chinese people do not forget old friends he continued, which is of course, hardly directly to us because they always call you and to some extent me old friends. Then some more of this and Ormandy was on the verge of tears by this point.

P: You thought it went well?' (Bruce)

K: Very well, I' mean he's just ecstatic.

K: Madame Mau was dressed in a formal black version of the great dress she wore earlier, white shoes and handbag and a small evening wristwatch. And Madame Mau's presence and unprecendently warm welcome for Phil. Symphony represet a strong reassurance, the development of bilateral relations with the U.S. remains a high priority item for the Chinese leadership. Her well published actions put into perspective the ______ of the 10th party congress and other recent ideological statements from this standpoint.

DECLASSIFIED

Autentic
EC 12658

- 6 -

P: Yeah, sure. That's good.

K: You know that was intended for us here.

P: That's good.

K: And Grymoko is over here and he's requested to see you, and you've seen him every year and he's asked for September 28th if that were at all possible.

P: When is that?

K: A week from this Friday.

P: OK. That's a good day.

K: Good, so I'll confirm then tomorrow. I've already talked to Haig and he's got a formal request into you.

P: Oh sure. We'll see him. I think there that I probably ... what do you think we ought to do with our friend the British fellow?

K: We've already told him no.

P: Good.

K: They really haven't been that helpful and...

P: They haven't been helpful and why should we just.

K: Well we have said whenever he was over here alone you'd be happy to see him but when all other West European countries are requesting to see you to single him out wouldn't be consistent with the general policy he himself has developed.

P: Good point. Let's be a little distant and they'll come to us. Just like the Indians have.

K: No question about it.

P: They'll get the message but we'll see Grymoko because we always see him and we've got business to transpire.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12/58

BY MR. D. E. 6/10/64

*

- 7 -

K: Absolutely.

P: The 28th. I'm sure I can work that out.

K: I think it would be very helpful.

P: Well then, I still think we can probably figure on manybe Friday for
your swearing in.

K: That'w what it looks like. Yes.

P: We're sort of holding that open but we'll sort of figure Friday.

K: Yeah, that's what it looks like now.

P: Well invite the Committee but we'll invite the House Committee also.

K: I think we should invite the House Committee.

P: I'm going to invite the Arms Services Committee too in both Houses.

K: Right. That should fill the room by itself.

P: Well, it'll fill half of it and then we can get a lot of State Department people
and a few other people and that's it.

K: Under Secretaries, Assistant Secretaries, the problem is most of them
will be gone in thraee weeks.

P: Well, I won't ask them then.

K: I think we should ask them. It's a good symbolic gesture.

P: Do they know they're going to be gone.

K: No. I'll give them 48 hours warning, otherwise it would leak all over
the place.

P: That's enough. 48 hours.

K: I mean most of them we'll give other jobs to in some Embassy.

P: They all like to be Ambassadors anyway.

K: That's right. But I think we have to get younger and dynamic people in.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 2458
By NAR. Date 6/10/64

- 8 -

P: Yeah. You know I was talking to Shultz today about our friend in Japan.

K: Yeah.

P: And he, of course, is very high on him. He thinks he's done a great job in Japan. He says that he doesn't question him he sincerely that few jobs are more important than that one because the Japanese respect him and all that sort of thing.

K: But he would be in charge...I think bringing him here. George says there is no political sense. The man in charge of East Asia is Japanese expert that is the best answer we can give to.

P: I don't want a foreign service guy in that job.

K: In Japan. I know we should find somebody like Ingersoll or maybe Casey.

P: Yes, he'd do alright.

K: He would do very well.

P: Yeah.

K: Or anybody. I don't think it should be a foreign service guy.

P: Not in Japan no. It's got to be a business type. That's what they're interested in.

K: But I think Ingersoll could do a superb job here as Assistant Secretary. It would upgrade the position of Assistant Secretary and would take the monopoly of the foreign service in those positions. And he could really shape it up.

P: Yeah. You'd have to give him great responsibility you know. This is a top flight fellow and he'd have to realize that he is not just coming here as a....

K: My intention would be to give him practically carte blanche in that area.

P: Have you talked to him yet?

K: Yeah.

P: What's he think of it.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: EC-12458
By: SAR, E1 6/10/64

- 9 -

K: Well he was at first a little reluctant but now he's willing to do it.

P: He'll do what we want if he thinks it's the most important thing.

K: I think he's done what he can do in Japan and if I can't get a few non-
foreign service officers in these key spots...

P: You're dead, I know.

K: Yeah. And he would then handle Japan, China, Korea. He could do a superb job in there.

P: He'd have the Marshall Green job?

K: That's right. We could trust him where we couldn't trust Marshall Green.

P: Trust him totally.

K: And that's really the pivotal position in the State Dept. into which we have to get people we can rely on.

P: I agree. You might tell George when you talk to him tomorrow that you and I have talked about it and that's what we decided and tell him how I mean ... that the point is we need a man of his type right here.

K: We need him here. We need to upgrade the position. We need to set an example to the rest of the foreign service.

P: Finding a good man for that job will be quite a responsibility but. Have you thought of... spoken with David Rockefeller or something?

K: I'm seeing him tomorrow. I'm thinking of him for the Casey job.

P: He'd be a hell of an Ambassador to Japan.

K: He won't take it. I've already mentioned that to him.

P: OK. Well, he'll do Casey's job well too.

K: He'll do it very well indeed. Add a lot of...

P: Does Casey have to be reconfirmed to do that?

K: Unfortunately yeah.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: EO 12958

By: J.P. MAR. Die 6.10.84

- 10 -

P: That's the only problem. Oh well. The only problem I'm concerned with there is to whether they go and give him a ____ over about ITT and all that crap again but.

K: Well they had him up in January

P: Yeah. We can talk about that later. It's alright with me if he thinks he can hack it on the hearing.

K: Right. Well Haig was going to talk to him this week.

P: Right. All in all our meeting with the Armed Services thing is fine. The Jackson made his ploy and he's alright though, he's alright in the defense side of it. I'm leaving MFN, he's... feels very strongly about using our influence to. I don't know, he's a little mixed up on it. I think you ought to have a real good chat with him sometime. You probably haven't done that have you.

K: No, I talked to him...

P: not about MFN but the whole smear.

K: That's right. We agreed this morning before we went there, before we went into your office, that soon after my confirmation I was going to come to his house and talk to him.

P: Good, that's the way to do it. OK. Anything else in the world I need know about.

K: No, I think otherwise...

P: Have you had the people, on another scale, checking on the possibility of Mrs. Nixon going over to Africa.

K: Yes. Everyone is enthusiastic about it and we will have a package for you tomorrow. I mean of what she can bring with her so she'll certainly have something...

P: It's possible she might do that and then go on to Finland with this other thing but I don't know whether to do it or not..

K: I don't have the impression that the Finnish thing is all that high level

P: But you can take a look at it.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: EO 12158

By: SAR: Die 6/10/94

- 11 -

K: We've Arleigh Burke to go to the funeral.

P: Arleigh Burke. He's....

K: He's of Swedish extraction.

P: Marvelous. That's good. I was thinking you could even ask...I was thinking of asking Nelson to do it but that would be probably too high grade.

K: Particularly now that that Bastard.... ______ has just won the communist votes making the difference.

P: Isn't that something. 2 votes.

K: He lost 4 votes and the communists picked up 2 so he still has a 2 vote majority.

P: But that's awful tight isn't it.

K: Very tight.

P: No great embarrassment is it?

K: No, the only question is whether he's going to move to the left XX to does he pick up the communists votes or to the right to pick up the votes he lost to the center.

OL: I see. Well, that's his problem. That's no great skin off our back either way.

K: That's right. I think we can move slowly towards reestablishing diplomatic relations now.

P: Very slowly. Deliberately we'll see what he does like we've done with Allende you know. The slow movement is what really matters here Henry.

K: Exactly.

P: Quite slowly and deliberately. OK.

K: Right Mr. President.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority: E.C. LASS|&
By: E. MAR. LEE G-10-94

TELCONE

McNamara/Kissinger

9:45 a.m. - 9/18/73

K: Hello.

M: Hello, Henry, how are you?

K: Bob, how are you?

M: Fine. Say, I hate to bother you with my business but I got a problem now that is close to being your business. Let me sketch it to you very quickly. The meeting of the Bank and Foreign Governors starts in Nairobi next Monday. On Sunday in Nairobi the Committee of 20 meets - the Finance Ministers in preparation for that Monday meeting as far as the monetary problems are concerned. On Saturday what are known as the Deputies of the Finance Ministers for the Renegotiation of the Fourth Replenishment of (Item) meet. This matter was started last September and was supposed to have been settled in March of this year, it's been dragging on and on because the U.S. hasn't given an answer. All of the other countries have agreed on the formula at $1500 million of commitment authority per year for 3 years with the US percentage to be reduced from 40% to 33 1/3%.

K: We've had a paper into the President for weeks on this.

M: On Saturday of this week the wholething was to be lined up with that. I just heard and I can't even disclose my - in fact I don't know the name of the guy in the government who gave us the information - but last night Shultz went over to talk to the President about this and the President said that Shultz said in effect that the Congressional support isn't strong enough to put through such legislation without the President's support, the President said "Well, he's got too much to do on military and certain other things that he can't support it."

K: I have told the god-damned Shultz not to do this a hundred times.

M: Honest a god, Henry, it's the most inept thing I've ever seen. He told - I told the Treasury the other day I could deliver these Chairman look if they'll let me do it.

K: Bob, it drives me up a wall. Shultz all summer long has had a memo into the President asking the President for his abstract commitment to support the replenishment. I stopped it and pulled it out of the President's office all summer long. Because you cannot ask a President to make an abstract commitment to do something.

M: Of course not. When you finally get down to the wire you want to say

DECLASSIFIED

*

2

M: (con't) "Mr. President, would you just give Passman one call.

K: What I had tried to explain to the bull-headed professor that what good does it do - supposing he gets a Presidential commitment, then he gets to a crunch and needs a phone call, what's he going to do walk in with that paper and say you have a legal commitment to call Passman.

M: Henry, my information may be wrong but let me say one further word which is the real key to the thing. I'm out so god damn far on a limb with Vietnam I'm going to get my ass burned unless this goes through. I have a meeting tentatively scheduled with governments on the 17th of October in Paris to start organizing the financing of Vietnam.

K: Bob, it's going to go through. It is one of these insane, pendantic, economic nuttinesses that he's gotten into trouble with time and again because I told this stupid bastard not to raise it and when I stopped the memos he's gone into the President now and done it personally.

M: One reason for my thinking what I heard this morning is correct is that also this morning Shultz called and wanted to see me today so I'm going to see him sometime - unspecified - this afternoon - my guess is that

K: See him late in the afternoon so that I can get to him.

M: I'll do that.

K: We will certainly be - this thing would be through now if it weren't for this stupid

M: Absolutely insane. I'll leave it in your hands, Henry. I'll drop everything to see you or anything else.

K: Bob, I'm sorry I'm speaking so vehemently, but it seems to me the sort of battle that no skillful bureaucrat would ever fight.

M: It's insane, Henry. But we don't have much time.

K: I'll get right after it. It should have been approved to begin with.

M: OK, thanks.

Telcon
Mexican Foreign Minister Rabasa/HAK

Sept. 18, 1973; 1:47 p.m.

K: Emilio. How are you?

R: I just got the very good news that all things are OK, no?

K: The Senate still has to vote, but that's pretty much of a formality, if the committee votes. The Senate never overturns a committee.

R: Well, I'm over-joyed, Henry, and I know and hope that you'll be a great Secretary of State.

K: But I know you, Emilio. You're going to pull rank on me now as the senior Foreign Minister.

R: [laughs] No, Henry, I'm leaving for United Nations the 28th, more or less. When in New York I'll call you.

K: Good. I want to see you. You know, if you can put your charter into neutral language.

R: My what?

K: That charter - into neutral language.

R: Yes, and we have thought about this - not as a treaty, but as a declaration.

K: That's what I mean, as a declaration.

R: Exactly. That's our thought.

K: But if you can do it without being critical of the developed nations.

R: That I will do.

K: Then I think we will make a big effort to support it.

R: That I will do, Henry. And I'll set down with you and I'll go over it.

K: And also I want to discuss with you getting Latin American policy more active.

R: Fine, because I will just see, well, I have a lot to speak to you.

DECLASSIFIED

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: EC 12958

BY NARR. The 6/16/64

-2-

I was just going over the countries one by one, and I will speak to you and you see that democracy is now a very curious item in Latin America.

K: Yes, well, we'll have to talk about it, Emilio, and I need your help in this respect.

R: Please, Henry, the place that took certain steps, now lay very low, Henry, because they are saying that, well, you know, you helped things that happened.

K: I personally?

R: Oh, no, no, no, the government.

K: No, that isn't true. Believe me, it isn't.

R: Henry, you're telling me - I know it. But, play it very cool at this moment.

K: Well, we are playing it very cool.

R: Because now they're saying that money is going to overflow over there.

K: Oh, no, we're going to go slowly.

R: And that the biggest national is going to go back again.

K: Who?

R: ITT.

K: No, no, no.

R: Well, they are trying to but I want you to start with the right certainty a great Secretary of State, especially concerning Latin America.

K: Well, that is my intention, Emilio, and with your help, we can do it.

[let no]

R: But at this moment, please, if you can mostly support these people because the image of these guerillas all over Latin America is terrible, Henry. Any association of you, or the government, or the President would be terrible at this moment.

K: No, no, we are moving very deliberately.

R: Please do so until I speak to you and I can explain many things that I've heard and know.

- 3 -

K: Good.

R: My big, big, abrazas, Henry, and I will send you a very nice letter. Once in New York, I'll call you and I'll fly over to Washington to see you.

K: Good. Terrific.

R: Thank you.

K: Emilo, look forward to seeing you and you'll be my chief associate in Latin American policy I hope.

R: I'm going to be your chief friend, as I always hope, wherever you stay there or I stay in this post.

K: Exactly.

R: We're going to be friends forever, Henry.

K: There's no question about that.

R: You invite me to your home or I'll invite you to Embassy. We'll have a long chat.

K: Good, one or the other.

R: Okay, I'll call you when I am in New York.

K: Fine.

R: A big abrazas.

K: My warmest regards to your wife.

R: You're going to be a great Secretary of State I hope.

K: I hope so too.

R: Bye, Henry.

K: Bye, Emilo.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EO 7658

By [REDACTED] Mar 6 1964

*

TELCONE

Senator Fulbright/Mr. Kissinger

2:34 p.m., September 18, 1973

K: Mr. Chairman.

F: Well, Mr. Secretary, how are you?

K: (laughs) I'm fine and I just wanted to call you to tell you how much I appreciated the fairness with which these hearings were conducted and I realize it was difficult for many of your colleagues in the light of what had happened.

F: Well, I think it came out all right.

K: And also to tell you that now that the hearings are over, everything I said I wanted to reaffirm again.

F: Well, thank you very much. I'm relying on that and I hope we can do some good. I'm looking forward to it.

K: I don't know when it would be appropriate for you and me to get together. I'd like to go over some things with you on personnel and so forth.

F: Yep.

K: Does that have to wait for the Senate confirmation?

F: Well, you've got to go up there and I'm just snowed under. I was away you know last week and I've got about 4 different things. Just as soon as you get back from --

K: You won't be able to come up with me?

F: Oh, Henry, I just can't do that. I've got -- I asked them to put off -- we've got, you see, this foreign aid and I'm so deeply involved in about 4 things. I put off the Conference meeting twice because I was away and then also we had to slip one of them because of your hearings.

K: Yeah.

F: And I've got it piled up here, Foreign Aid, Defense Procurement and about 4 other things.

K: But do try on October 4th when I'm giving the dinner for all the Delegations.

F: October 4th.

DECLARED OPEN

Authority EC 7258

BY JOHN DEG 9/1/73

*

2

K: In New York at the Metropolitan Museum, all the foreign ministers and heads of government who are there --

F: Is that the evening of the 4th?

K: That's the evening of the 4th. And it would even be nice if you and Mrs. Fulbright would agree to be in the receiving line with me.

F: Well, I'll try to do that. By that time, I hope we've cleared some of this out of the way.

K: I think it would be a nice gesture to the UN and that is after all, something on which there is complete unanimity between us.

F: Yeah.

K: And if anything, you're out ahead of me.

F: Yeah, I think so.

K: So if you could come to that.

F: Well, we'll see if we can do that.

K: I think that would be nice. Now, are you free for breakfast any morning this week, say Saturday, or is that a bad day for you? We can wait till next week if that's easier for you.

F: This week is an awful bad week. We just got a message we'll be threatened with a Saturday session. In fact, the leadership is trying to get through in October. But how about next week -- 25th or 27th.

K: Yeah, I'll be back on the 27th. Should we have lunch on the 27th?

F: Okay.

K: Do you want me to come up to your place or would you like to come to the State Department, assuming --

F: Well, whatever you say. You'll be in the State Department by then.

K: Well, I'd be very pleased if you'd come to the State Department.

F: Okay, Thursday, the 27th.

K: Thursday, the 27th about 1 o'clock.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12458

By CAPTAIN D.E. 6/16/94

3

F: Okay. That's fine.

K: Good. It will be just you and I.

F: Okay. Anything you wish to talk about, if you will let me know, I'll try to inform myself if there's anything special.

K: Well, I wanted to talk to you about personnel changes that I have in mind.

F: Oh, I see.

K: I'll call you ahead of time on any substantive issue.

F: Okay. That's fine.

K: I just want to review with you where we're going and what issues are likely to come up.

F: Good. That will be good.

K: Good. So I'll see you for lunch on the 27th, at the State Department.

F: That's fine.

K: That's very, very nice.

F: Very good. And congratulations.

K: Thank you and my appreciation again.

F: And good luck.

K: Thank you. Well, I count on working together closely with you.

F: Well, I think if we can, if they'll let us try, I think maybe we can find some way to improve our lot.

K: Well, I'll make a really major effort.

F: Okay. I know you will.

K: Thank you.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E.O. 1258

BY JOHN F. DEERING

TELCONE

Bryce Harlow/HAK

September 18, 1973/3:23 p.m.

K: Hello.

H: The whole thing got away from me entirely.

K: Well I must say Bryce, with dedication and hard work you finally managed to vote.

H: Well, I'm awfully sorry Henry, I didn't get that half vote against you, I did my darndest.

K: Did you see McGovern's statement? I'm glad he thinks so highly of me. He said the reason he voted against me is because I needlessly prolonged the war in Vietnam and closed my eyes to the killing of hundreds of thousands of people in East Bengal.

H: But he thinks very very highly of you.

K: But he does think highly of me and he's eager to have social contact with me right after my nomination.

H: You murderer. He likes that. He likes to socialize with murderer. That's the reason the people voted him down. They didn't like that sort of thing as much. Well, I'm sorry about the lack of unanimity.

K: Actually I think I could have picked the vote, I'd rather have McGovern against me than for me.

H: I agree with that.

K: If he had triggered two or three others it would have been bad but I don't think the American public thinks much of McGovern.

H: Well, I was at this luncheon for Bhutto that the Vice President gave and Farland, our former Ambassador was sitting next to me.

K: Oh in Pakistan. He's a good man.

H: I told him things are sure breaking just right for Henry.

K: He said what do you mean?

H: I said McGovern voted against him.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: EO 12658

BY: QAR, MAR. 16, 1994

K: When is the Senate going to vote now?

H: It depends on the transcripts fundamentally first of all of getting them in shape and then getting them acceptable to the Committee. I don't know what's happened on that. That's what I was on the phone about this morning so much. Now what's since happened...

K: Well I don't have any sense that there is any disagreement between the committee and my office on any transcripts in which I participated

H: With the Justice Department.

K: I think there is some dispute between the Justice Department. I don't give a damn what they put in the transcript.

H: Well there is a discomfort between Justice and the Committee and now have you finally gotten the transcripts in your office.

K: I don't know, I asked Eagleburger to get them.

H: You see that could hold them up and we've got to get them up there. Then someone can ask for a layover of a day you see and it's potentially a two day delay in other words.

K: You mean they'll vote on Thursday or Friday?

H: Yeah. It's usually a couple of days mainly because of the transcripts and/or someone is trying to cost you a day but I don't why anybody would do that including McGovern.

K: That he won't do. He's already going to take some fantastic social heap here in town for doing what he did.

H: Oh, well, don't be mean to him Henry, he's a nice man. He has a lot of influential friends.

K: Let me check on the transcripts, I have no idea where they are.

H: I was told by Marcy that they were in your office and you were working on testimony.

K: Well if that's what Marcy told you I've got more eager beavers around. You know Harlow you've got 48 hours of my time more.

H: I realize that and I've already bought my knee pads.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EO 12558

By NAR. Dic. 6, 1984

*

K: Are you looking for a Congressional liaison type for me?

H: Yeah, I'm trying to find time to call and ask about the two you've already picked.

K: Well when are you going to do that?

H: If I can get out from the problem of saving the President from these other disasters today, it's been a disasterous days, you've been reported, number one, number two I lost my job there you see and number two he's going to go out for this mandatory allocation without = any visible means of implementing it. And number three he almost ruined his housing program by over-reaching, number four, I have to get your man Bhutto properly received by the Vice President.

K: He's got a lot of dignity. OK if you could.

H: I'll more on your two guys.

K: Would you see whether you can do it within the next 24 hours. I'd be most grateful.

H: I'll try my best. I'll just tell the President that he comes second.

K: Whey don't you do that.

H: Yes, I will.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 265.8
BY MR. D. E. 6/10/64

*

TELCOM

George Shultz/HAK

September 18, 1973/4:01 p.m.

K: George.

S: Hi Henry.

K: I hope you realize this that you might as well enjoy this for another week or so. I'm not getting on the phone first. As soon as I get sworn in I'm calling all my colleagues and put them on first.

S: Right.

K: Cause we've got to have a little discipline around here.

S: I'm shocked that my Secretary let that happen. I've instructed her otherwise.

K: George, I had a phone call from McNamara who had heard a rumor that you had gone to the President and asked him to commit himself to give us his support for the IDA replenishment and that the President turned that down. I don't know whether that's true. Now my view on this matter remains what it was. It is absolutely senseless to ask the President for an abstract commitment. He'll never give it. The time to do it is when the issue is concrete. Then he will do it if you and I urge it.

S: Well, I talked to the President about it because we have to take a position. On Saturday, this coming Saturday.

K: But we have to be fore it.

S: Well, we are for it.

K: Oh good. Are you going to tell this to McNamara.

S: We will but we just can't be fore it because the Congress is not only chilly, the Congress is ice cold on this subject.

K: Yeah, but we've got to do it. We've just got to fight it and I know the President will say 100 times he is against but he won't do anything with Congress.

S: Well, he didn't say that, I was the only person there so how does McNamara know what I talked to the President about.

K: Well, that's what I would like to know. Well I don't give a damn whether McNamara is right. I just want to stress my strong view that we gamble

and support it.

S: Well, I don't know about that. I don't know that that is the way to get the money but let me talk to you about it tomorrow because we are going to attempt to take a position on Saturday in Nairobi and then we're going to have to say something in my speech there on the subject.

K: Ok,

S: We have been working very hard on it as you know. It's just murder. Very discouraging. Ok.

K: Ok. Bye.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12958

BY GONAR, Tue 6/10/84

TELCON

Carl Marcy/HAK

September 18, 1973/4:15 p.m.

K: Hello. Carl, I just wanted to call you now that your vote is over to tell you that I thought that you and the staff really behaved very decently and fairly.

M: Well than k you very much. We were only able to dig up one vote against you. You couldn't very well complain about that.

K: But I know you gave it a great effort so that made it worth while. In all seriousness, I want to reaffirm all the things I said while the hearings were going on about the cooperation I want to give.

M: I know there is always a tendency to ... you know some people say he is not serious and he does it for this and for that reason but I don't think it's that way at all.

K: Well, let's give a two month... give it a few months because in the first weeks I may be busy but I've set up a meeting with the Chairman for the 27th and I'd like to get together with you too just as soon as I'm installed. Maybe on the 27th or 28th you could just drop by and let's talk informally on how to do it.

M: Alright. Anytime and I'll keep in touch with Larry so we know....

K: I wanted to reaffirm that everything I said I was really deadly serious about and that I look forward to working with you.

M: It's a good thing to have a Secretary of State period.

K: Well, I hope I live up to it.

M: OK. Thanks.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12458

BY GJNAR. Lr. 6/10/84

TELCOM

George Franklin/HAK

September 18, 1973/4:27 p.m.

K: Hello.

F: Henry, I think it's rather an outrage to push in on a day which must be a very busy one.

K: No, it's always a pleasure to talk to you.

F: Well it's nice to hear you. I hope things are going well.

K: No, they're going very well.

F: Henry, the specific thing I called you about is the leaders of our Japanese Commission are in town and they have gotten the Prime Minister to talk on either October 22 or 23 to the Commission. They were very anxious to find out when you are going there and also wanted me to express for them that it might not be on those days because they want the top Japanese brass to launch them.

K: Well, my schedule is going to be extremely tight. I have not yet got a date for going to China and my trip to Japan will depend on that.

F: I see.

K: And I just don't know.

F: There is no way of telling whether it might then be on those days.

K: Quite honestly, it could be on those days but it could be anytime in the last 10 days of October but that depends very largely on the Chinese.

F: Well, I will just tell them I have spoken to you as they asked me.

K: Why does my visit make any different.

F: Two reasons. First because they say, and I assume its true, the top governmental people will be entirely tied up with you if you are there and therefore they won't be able to speak at the opening meeting of Commission and secondly,

K: I can't believe that they would be there more than an hour at the opening meeting of the.....

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12458

By Tep NAR. Pte 6/10 94

*

F: NO, they wouldn't but I think they just felt that their energy and thoughts were entirely on that they wouldn't be able to do it and they also felt that the publicity they might get which they want very much would be entirely taken over by your visit.

K: Well, if they want to do it then they ought to do it the first week of November. That time I'll certainly not be there.

I'll just report this

F: Yeah. Well, they can't change but I think they need to get back...

K: Well, to the degree that I have flexibility I will keep that in mind but it's more likely to be after than before... at that time

F: Well, that's the most they could possibly ask keeping in mind that everything else was more or less equal.

K: Right.

F: Thank you very much

K: Nice to talk to you.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E012458

BY

NAR: Die 6/16/64

TELCOM

The President - Mr. Kissinger
5:05 p. m.

September 18, 1973

K: Hello.

N: Hello. What two or three of the Senators were most helpful to you, would you say?

K: Javits and Sparkman were truly decent.

N: How about on the Republican side?

K: Well, Javits, Percy and Scott. Pearson did nothing.

N: So Javits and Sparkman were helpful.

K: Yes.

N: All right, good. I thought I might have a chance to call a few of them this afternoon.

K: That would be very kind of you.

N: OK. Thank you.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: EC 1258
By: J. NAR. DEC 6/10/64

TELCONE

McNamara/Kissinger

9/18/73 - 5:15 p.m.

K: Hello.

M: Hi, Henry.

K: Bob, I don't know whether you talked to George yet.

M: No, I haven't.

K: I've given him hell today.

M: That's good. He deserves it.

K: And he swears he didn't exactly say what you think he said.

M: I hope not. I've gotten some other reports later today that he didn't say it exactly that way, that was sure what he meant.

K: Well, you and I are having lunch tomorrow, and I'm going to take up this issue. I consider it of the most vital importance for the United States that this thing goes through. I don't think we should bargain with Congress before we even submit the bloody thing.

M: Henry, this is the point. It was the most inapt approach to Congress that people in this ______ have heard. I've had several people tell me that today.

K: Of course Patman will say no if you ask him...

M: And so will the others. With the President impounding funds and not putting through the Democrats priorities, what the hell is the Democratic______.

K: I wanted you to know, Bob, I think you should proceed on the assumption that we will do it.

M: Well, very good, and you can count on my help, Henry. And I think I can deliver some of these people at the proper time and under the proper circumstances.

K: Well, I will take it. I'm having lunch with George tomorrow. If I fail I will take it to the President in the afternoon.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12/15/8

By: R.J. NAR. Date: 6/16/84

*

-2-

M: Excellent, excellent, because George is leaving at 8:00 Thursday morning.

K: Well, we can always instruct him by cable.

M: Well, that's very good indeed.

K: And I just want you to know that we can fail on that and I don't think it's been fully understood and if Congress wants to cut it it's still better than for the Executive Branch not to have submitted it.

M: Absolutely, Henry, and in the meantime you understand that if Congress cuts it I'm in the deepest of trouble. But in any case in the meantime I can get ahead with Indo-China and a lot of other things can fall into place.
Well, it can't be

K: permitted to fail and I've already lined up Haig and between the two of us we're going to manage it.

M: Thanks very much for calling, Henry.

K: O.K. Bye, bye.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12458
By: SAR. P. 6/16/64

TELCONE

Gen. Haig/Kissinger

5:40 p.m. - 9/18/73

K: Hello.

H: Henry.

K: Yes, Al.

H: Say Henry, I wanted to talk to you about this Japanese trip. I just left the boss and I think he'll go along with that but if we don't crystalize it fairly soon in his own thinking he won't.

K: But I don't think it's essential and as far as I'm concerned we can wait until the middle of October to make up our mind.

H: Yeah. Well, I'm trying to get him nailed down.

K: I'm pretty sure that in the light of what is ahead of us next week you shouldn't go to Europe this year.

H: Well, I think he agrees with that, too. But he has been opposed to Japan, you know. He finally admitted that it would be a bad idea.

K: Ingersol is coming back on Friday.

H: O.K.

K: Let me talk it over with him. I'll have a definite recommendation to you by Monday.

H: O.K. Alright, now he committed you today to George Mahon. He committed you on several things today. Timmons will talk to you about it. One is, he said to Mahon at a later time that you would brief his Defense subcommittee and Mahon, probably on Defense. He's agreed to see Mahon and his subcommittee here in the White House. He also said that he wanted, he told me to tell Bill, and I have, that he wanted you Thursday to see a group of Senate Armed Services Committee people on the Defense thing.

K: I don't think I should do any of it until I'm confirmed.

H: Well, that's it. After you've been voted but he said before you are sworn in, but not before you......

DECLASSIFIED

EC 12/58

Authority

BY: NAR. L161054

-2-

K: But I think if I see any Congressional people I ought to see the House Foreign Affairs Committee.

H: Well, he said that too. So maybe we could combine them.

K: ________ can throw me in as a lobbyist on every bloody problem he's got.

H: Well, he did this. He said Henry's the only guy that convinces these people why it's really important to keep our defenses up. And he can't do it because of the Vice President thing and he feels amiss that he's not seeing some people this week.

K: Is the bill up this week?

H: I think in the Senate side, it will be up. And then Mahon, of course, will be the key guy.

K: I know. Mahon I have no trouble seeing, but I think the most useful Congressional group I could see this week is the House Foreign Affairs Committee.

H: Well, why don't you talk to Bill? He'll come over and hit you with all this crap...and then see how you feel.

K: Now, let me raise another thing with you, Al. That meeting with the President yesterday of George's was a total disaster.

H: With George Schultz?

K: Yeah. Because he hit him on the IDA replenishment, and asked for his agreement to support it in Congress, and of course you know what he'd say? I could have told you, he said he has other, more important things.

H: For him to cut it.

K: No, no. He has more important things than to commit himself to a fight in Congress on it. Now our whole Indo-China consortium approach depends on that IDA replenishment.

H: Sure.

K: And I think the position we should take is to, we've already cut it

DECLASSIFIED

Security: E0 12/58
By: P.NAR. Dec 6/84

-3-

from 40% to 33%. We should have the executive ask for it. If worse
comes to worse, let the Congress cut it.

H: Well, now you explain something to me. He mentioned to me this
morning IDA replenishment and I didn't know where it came from.

K: George Schultz raised it with him.

H: He said I'll bet you a dollar we're making Bob McNamara look good and he said that's not the way to do it. And that's where it came from.

K: Well, Al, you know how long we've been pushing for the consortium approach to South Vietnam? McNamara now has a number of countries lined up to put in several hundred million dollars.

H: Henry, I'll get it done if you will have Brent give me about three talking points and I'll get it back to you.

K: O.K. Good. We'll get it into you. Thank you.

H: O.K.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E.O. 1265.8

By: J.P. McNAMARA, D.C. 6/10/84

TELCORN

September 18, 1973/6:09 p.m.

Dobrynin/HAK

K: Hello Anatol

D: Hello Henry. I'm just calling from N.Y. and my Minister would
like to congratulate you on the first round.

K: Thank you.

D: And I join it.

K: Are you busy putting in resolutions before I get up there.

D: All resolutions. And a second point you remember we discussed with
you about ~~Secrets~~. Is everything alright?

K: Oh fine.

D: Absolutely alright.

K: Well the same will be on our side.

D: I would like to tell you.

K: Well it will be very conciliatory on our side.

D: Definitely so. And what about matters, the last one about the date.
28th is alright.

K: 11:00 on the 28th with the President.

D: the 28th yes and then lunch or in our Embassy.

K: What ever fits better for the foreign minister.

D: You'll all dinner there.

K: I'll be delighted to come for dinner but if he wants to come ... go back
to New York I'll be glad to come for lunch.

D: In any case I will check with him so there is no problem but he would
like to have a quiet, it will not be a large delegation but...

K: No, let's make it more personal so that we can really talk.

D: Well this I think is a better idea. And then he'll come to you on the 24th at 8:00.

K: 24th at 8:00

D: You and how many people?

K: Well, that's what I wanted to ask you Anatol. What do you think?

D: Well it depends on what you really want to discuss maybe make it small.

K: Well I prefer small size. I don't have any... I'll be in sort of a twilight zone because I won't have moved my staff to the State Dept. yet and I'll have to have...

D: I understand. How many from your side?

K: Well, two or three on my side, what do you think?

D: I think that's alright. So you and three.

K: I and at most three.

D: So altogether 3 or 4.

K: I guess I'll have to have Stessel there, the Asst. Secretary but he's discreet.

D: Althogether between 3 and 4 yes.

K: That's right and I suppose Sonnenfeldt and maybe one other but no more than four.

D: Together. OK that is settled, it's up to Grymoko ...

K: If he wants more or less it fine with me too.

D: I understnad. I think it is settled that's perfectly alright for 11:00 28th and then at 8:00 with you first meeting.

K: Good and you let me know whether it is lunch or dinner.

D: Yes, you have no preference just leave it to him because he may would like to....

DECLASSIFIED

Authority E012058
By: W.N. St. De. 04/30/58

K: Just tell him I would be delighted to come for dinner but I don't want him to stay if he has.....

D: It will be a little early because he leave in the morning.

K: Exactly.

D: I appreciate your consideration. I will mention to him. I will give you a call tomorrow. Alright?

K: And if for symbolic reasons you want me to give a lunch for him at the State Dept. I'd be glad to do that too.

D: Right.

K: If instead of coming to your Embassy.

D: Oh you ... I'm sure he could do it, there is no problem there. I X I am sure he would like it there, I'm sure about it. Alright Henry, I think everything is alright.

K: Let's keep everything calm. You know how excitable Scalli is?

D: And then I would like a minute before to see you, he asked me to tell you something. Nothing exciting.

K: You mean alone.

D: Yes, over there when we will be there I will just go up ...

K: At the U.N.

D: Yes, he told me not to come to you not to make it there but there he just have dinner with you and I will just.

K: You and I can sit apart.

D: yes, just to say a few words, lay some kind of background because so I can get to tell you more in a diplomatic way.

K: I appreciate that. I think that would be helpful.

D: So you can say in the proper way when you intend to tell him something /

K: I appreciate that and think that will be very helpful.

D: On a personal basis.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E012958
By: MWAPR 06-06-04

K: And will you tell the Foreign Minister that he shouldn't pull seniority on me? Since I will never be able to catch up with him.

D: Oh no, he will like to send you another telegram now so he said what is the proper time. Today, I said.....

K: Not yet. Not till the Senate acts.

D: When will that be now?

K: Probably on Thursday.

D: On Thursday. I think it's a very.....

K: That's fairly automatic.

D: It's very clear.

K: Give my warm regards to the Foreign Minister and tell him I will look forward to seeing him on Monday.

D: Thank you very much Henry. Bye.

DECLASSIFIED
Authority: E012058
By: MW, N.ada 50-00304

TELCOM

September 18, 1973/6:09 p. m.

Debrynin/HAK

K: Hello Anatol

D: Hello Henry. I'm just calling from N. Y. and my Minister would like to congratulate you on the first round.

K: Thank you.

D: And I join it.

D: All resolutions. And a second point you remember we discussed with you about [illegible] is everything alright?

K: Oh fine.

D: Absolutely alright.

D: I would like to tell you.

D: You'll all dinner there.

DECLARED

AUTHORITY E 012558

BY [Signature] DEC 6 1973

K: 24th at 8:00

D: You and how many people?

K: Well I prefer small size. I don't have any...I'll be in sort of a twilight zone because I won't have moved my staff to the State Dept. yet and I'll have to have...

K: I and at most three.

D: So altogether 3 or 4.

D: Altogether between 3 and 4 yes.

D: Together. OK that is settled, it's up to Chrymoke...

D: I understand. I think it is settled that's perfectly alright for 11:00 28th and then at 8:00 with you first meeting.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E07258

By: SAR: 6/10/64

D: It will be a little early because he leaves in the morning.

K: Exactly.

D: Right.

D: Oh you ... I'm sure he could do it, there is no problem there. I am sure he would like it there, I'm sure about it. Alright Henry, I think everything is alright.

K: You mean alone.

D: Yes, over there when we will be there I will just go up...

K: At the U.N.

K: You and I can sit apart.

D: So you can say in the proper way when you intend to tell him something/

K: I appreciate that and I think that will be very helpful.

D: On a personal basis.

DECLANIFIED

Authentic EO 12958

By: QJNAR, Dec 6/64

*

D: When will that be now?

K: Probably on Thursday.

K: That's fairly automatic.

D: It's very clear.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority: E052768

By: D. NARAYANAN

TELCOM

Tom Korologos/HAK

September 18, 1973/7:20 p.m.

K: Hello.

K: Is it true that you are joining the junta.

TK: I am joining the junta. That's OK I wouldn't too much about it. I think we can turn some of them around.

K: Well, I just wanted to tell you I've not had a chance really to talk to you for everything.

TK: You're great Henry.

K: You've been very helpful, good humored, decent.

TK: It's been a pleasure. I want you to know it's all been mine.

K: There can't be any objection on Friday can there.

TK: It's a unanimous consent agreement that there will be 2 hours of debate in the first order of business and Mansfield has a tendency to begin the Senate at 10:00 and if someone wants to speak before he tends to open it earlier 9:45 9:30, 9:00. So I assume by 10:00 or perhaps earlier. I don't know what they're going to say for 2 hours frankly Henry. We'll have you, I'll be phoning you around 11:30 11:45 and then I had been talking to Parker. They wanted to have a swearing in ceremony for 11:30 Friday and now they'll have to reschedule that for the afternoon.

K: Will it be the afternoon or Saturday.

TK: David thought it would be Friday afternoon. At least that's what he told me this morning.

K: I think it's going to be Saturday.

TK: That's up to you and the President. Now there was another plan they kicked around for a few minutes Henry, that immediately upon putting your right arm down, you jump into the car and go to the congress to consult. In Scott's back room. The defense bill is up and here is the Secretary of State. Gosh, wasn't that fast.

K: On Saturday.

DECLASSIFIED

*

TK: Well that was going to be the thing if we could have done it Friday at 11:30.

K: After I'm confirmed and after they've voted for me, they'll never see me again. You think I'm going to horse around. They are the enemy. I'm not going to take anymore of this.

TK: (tells Harlow what he says) I agree with you.

K: I walked up to Benson the ... yesterday at the dinner and I said I just want you to know that I'm not going to waste my time being charming on you. I'm going to get your wife to work on you.

TK: What'd he say?

K: He said there is no way you can manage to lose my vote.

TK: I think we'll have you be noon Friday and I'll call you.

K: Marvelous.

TK: Did you get the vote count? Did the girls show it to you.

K: I thought it was amusing.

TK: That's what the conservatives are passing around. One guy came up to Tower and said I want you to vote against Hiss Kissinger and he said why, and he said he doesn't speak American.

K: I'm passing the word that I have the Oklahoma accent and Harlow has the German accent.

TK: He does have a German accent.

K: Most people can't tell the different. You tell Harlow him I don't need anymore. That's why I don't talk to him.

TK: You don't know how his recoil mechanism works.

K: Right Tom. Thank you. Bye.

DECLASSIFIED

Authentic EC 12/25/8

BY R.J. NAR. DUE 6/16/84

TELCOM

The President/Mr. Kissinger

11:15 p.m., September 18, 1973

P: I was just going to say, you know, we've heard many quotes in this place from undeserving people but boy this clown --

K: That was an eloquent --

P: There hasn't been a better one, has there?

K: No.

P: It was from the heart too. He meant it.

K: What I will say in his defense, Mr. President, is he said this in the middle of July when things looked very tough.

P: I know and he told me tonight about the fact that NBC didn't use it then.

K: That's right.

P: And he was furious at them. So here's a Liberal, a real liberal. You know, he went over our foreign policy like the Senate ought to and the columnists and the rest.

K: That's right. And that's what most foreigners think, Mr. President.

P: And that's what he said, didn't he? It was really a beautiful toast.

K: It was really moving.

P: But the way he went in, went over the whole thing, what had happened and the rest. He said about how history would record and the rest. That's what really drives our Libs up the wall because here is a foreign liberal speaking very eloquently. They know it's true but they can't bear to admit it.

K: And that's why they keep nitpicking away at the fringes of it but not in any way that will survive six months much less six years.

P: Well, I'm glad it came around that we had him now.

K: Actually, it's a better time --

P: And also, he was very good before the Foreign Relations Committee and I want to be damn forthcoming with him, whatever we can do. That harbor thing appeals to me. If there's anything we can do, get the Navy to do something there rather than some other place.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 12958
BY NAR. Die 6/16/73

The President/Mr. Kissinger

2

K: Right. And what he's particularly interested in, which you might mention to him, is the possibility of getting some arms into his hands through Iran.

P: Well, of course.

K: And you might tell him that we will do our very best and that we are going to send Helms there to see what can be done.

P: Yeah, we told him that today, that Helms is coming.

K: Yeah, but he had some doubt whether we are actually going to see what we can do about getting the arms into his hands.

P: We sure as hell are going to do it. We must. But I want to follow through on that other item too and all up and down the line.

K: Right.

P: This idea of, you know, playing to India. Like Mrs. Ghandi is now making sweet noises but she doesn't mean it and you know she doesn't mean it. And we are just going to play a little hard to get.

K: Absolutely!

P: A little hard to get. He went over tonight the fact, he said if when she had been here -- and I told him that I thought it was a mistake how Keating had advised us to treat her well -- he said if we had treated her rough then, the war might never have happened.

K: I think we made a mistake. Everyone told us -- all our advisers told us that she was the leader of the peace party and therefore we had to strengthen her.

P: I know, I know. But you remember, I had great doubts.

K: You had great doubts.

P: But you remember that. And then you remember that terrible toast that she made. She alluded to -- as he said in his remarks this morning -- about moralism and the rest. Dammit, you know she's smarter than she is.

K: Well, it isn't just that, Mr. President. You made an especially graceful toast to her on that event.

DECLASSIFIED

Authority EC 1258
BY JOHN F. DeSoto

The President/Mr. Kissinger

3

P: I know. I was treating her as a leader rather than a woman and all that. As a leader in her own right rather than the daughter of a leader and then she just came on with that moralistic lecture. It was unbelievable.

K: That's right. It was awful.

P: Almost like the Mexicans, and less reason.

K: (laughs) Well, the Mexican was using you to give his farewell address to get a little publicity for himself.

P: But my point is, they talk about tilting to Pakistan, we're going to do more of it. We're going to do it in order to put it to -- first, to show up the Chinese to keep the Indians in line and let the Russians know that they aren't to screw around down there.

K: I thought it was a beautiful touch.

P: Fine, Henry. Thank you.

K: Thank you, Mr. President.

BEFORE I DIED

AUTHORITY EC 1258

BY JOHN D. FOSTER