DECLASSIFIED
E.O. 12958, Sect. 3.6

By NARA, Dalo 5/26

Mr. Kissinger/Mr. Haldeman
January 4, 1971 11:00 a.m.
jlj

(not verbatim)

H: Hello Henry.

K: Hello. I can see now who the strongest man in the organization is.

H: Who?

K: You got the President to come out here.

H: Mrs. Nixon did.

K: That's right. But I think it is the right thing to do. It is glorious out here.

H: The weather is good?

K: It is glorious. It's not warm - upper 60s or lower 70s. It is nice during the day and cools off at night. Bob, I have two schedule questions. When is the President leaving?

H: He is leaving at noon.

K: He must be leaving later than that. Isn't he seeing Freeman at 12:45?

H: 11:45

K: Oh, then that means you will be here around 3 p.m. However, that's less important than when you are coming back. The reason I am asking is that I am trying to arrange my schedule and I don't know when I can start making appointments.

H: Thursday, the 14th.

K: Is that definite?

H: No. Nothing is definite.

K: I am just trying to determine if it is safe for me to schedule meetings later in that week. The President may stay out here...

H: He has to be back on Friday. He really cannot come back later than Thursday.

K: Would he come back earlier? Is he going to Palm Springs this weekend?

By NARA, Dato 5/26

- 2 -

H: That is what I hear. He says now that he is not going to do anything.

K: You know that I am going back to Washington on Friday and will
come back on Monday. Then I would go back with you on Friday.
Mosbacher called and he is interested in OAS.

H: Did you tell him . . . talk to Rogers?

K: I did not tell him anything. I didn't know if you had talked to Rogers or if you wanted me to say anything. If you could mention it to Rogers. Another thing, Habib wants to be out of there . . . because of the school year. Perhaps we could give him the Ambassador of Korea or Australia. The President practically promised a good post to him on 3 or 4 occasions.

XKEX It would be good for these other guys to see that someone was rewarded - it would help.

H: OK Henry.

By NARA, Date 5/26

Telcon
Taft Schrieber
1/4/71; 12:20 pm

K: I'm out here for a week. Just wanted to call you to wish you a
happy New Year.

S: I just heard on the radio this morning that there was a quick switch
and the President came out here.

K: They are not out here yet. I came out a few days ahead to work on a
report for the President.

S: Let me know if there is anything we can do for you. I do want to do
something like a dinner or cocktails here.

K: I will be out here until about the 14th.

S: It will be totally social. No politicals. Some of the people in the motion
picture field - men, women and children.

K: I can do without the children -- I am joking.

S: I know many people I believe you ought to know and would like to know.
I believe you are a great credit to the President in this respect. Some of
these people are pretty much Democrats, liberals, that are always
staleminated by the kind of contact....

K: I will be glad to do it.

S: I will try to find an available day. I hope most of your evenings are free.

K: Except for the weekend when I have to go east.

S: How about Tuesday, January 12, or the 13th, either of those days?

K: Let's aim for the 12th in case the President goes back earlier. This
week would be the safest in case anything came up.

S: If I can get it organized fast enough we will try to do it this week.

K: No, no, I think the 12th is safe because I will be back here on the 11th,
barring some emergency. And then the President is leaving on the 14th.

By. NARA, Dato 5/26

Schrieber

-2-

S: If he leaves on the 14th, will you be going back that same day?

K: I will go back on the 14th or 15th. I will probably go back with him or within 24 hours of him.

S: Let me zero in on the 12th. We will try to do it at our house; 30 to 40 people, cocktail buffet thing that would be more social - a lot of attractive people - if there is anything such as a jet set. If there is anything else you want, call me. Maybe a car and a driver.

K: Thank you very much.

ms

By NARA, Dato 5/26

Telcon
Dwight Chapin
1/4/71; 1:25 p.m.

C: Henry, I called to be sure you will listen to the President tonight and will call him afterwards.

K: Aren't you sweet. I was planning to do just that.

C: He wants to get current objective views of observers outside the White House. Now that you are out of Washington, I guess your views are considered objective.

K: Will I get through right away?

C: Not right away, but he will call you back. He will want your reactions and will appreciate the call.

ms

By. NARA, Date 5/26

Wes Posvar/Mr. Kissinger
January 4, 1971 2:11 p.m.

(not verbatim)

jlj

P. Are you still in California.

K: Now until the 14th.

P: You suggested last week I call you back about my projected trip.
I am leaving on the 14th.

K: I think you should see General Haig, my deputy. I will tell him
about it and you can call him and set up an appointment. When will
you be in Washington?

P: Thursday afternoon and Friday. I am going to West Africa for
about a week and ______ for about a week. I will be seeing mostly
educator types.

K: I will get Haig to give you a few things we would want you to
keep an eye on. Then you will give him a call?

P: Yes. I'll call him tomorrow.

By NARA, Date 5/26

Telcon
Tony Day, LA. Times
1/4/71; 2:45 p.m.

D: We were wondering if when you are out you might have some time to come up to the paper as you have done before and see a couple of us, or a couple of us come down to see you.

K: May I call you tomorrow morning? I may be coming up to Los Angeles later in the week to see some people and we could do it the way we have done it before - say about 5:00 in the afternoon.

D: OK. The only thing I have on is Eliot Richardson on Friday.

K: Friday I won't be here. What is he doing out here?

D: I don't know. I just have him down.

K: Friday I have to go east and then I will come back again by the end of the week.

D: That will be splendid.

K: Let me call you in the morning and we will work it out. Either I will come up or you and your colleagues come here.

D: Fine. We can work it out.

K: Fine, Tony. I would like to see you.

D: And we would like to see you.

K: I will call you. Goodbye.

ms

By NARA, Date 5/26

Chalmers Roberts/Mr. Kissinger (not verbatim)

January 5, 1971 9:15 a.m.

jlj

R: Henry, In his conversation last night the President was talking about SALT and he used the term non-comprehensive agreement. Since he is using it I was wondering if there was some new move here?

K: No. According to our definition the 1st two were comprehensive but the one now is not.

R: Those were the ones including the MIRV?

K: Yes. . . . Last summer was trying to wait and not become frozen into any position but only in the general framework.

R: . . . stuck on definition of strategic. . . "move" to a non-comprehensive agreement just sounded as if we might be trying to open the way to just an ABM agreement.

K: That is wrong. We are not going to do that.

R: Have you seen the position of the atomic scientists on that? . . . still got to have the SS-9?

K: Yes, for background we could not accept just an ABM agreement.

R: Such as . . . FDA?

K: Such as that for example.

R: Were we willing to accept slow down on SS-9 without any formal commitment.

K: I doubt that.

R: Do not rule it out?

K: We are not willing to accept ABM . . .

R: Are we going to review post-Helsinki in depth.

K: We will have a careful review prior to Vienna.

R: At Vietnam we . . . still waiting for them first to make a proposal.

K: We have not really seen their numbers yet.

By NARA, Date 5/26

R: I get the impression that they are willing to . . . FBA thing first
. . . How do you get an agreement . . .

K: I do not want to get into it now but as indicated in my backgrounder
we will not accept an ABM agreement.

R: What other foreign policy matters were brought to the fore last night
by the President?

K: You tell me.

R: The Cuban thing. He said it on the record that servicing subs was
a violation of the agreement.

K: He said in and from Cuban ports.

R: The from was a little more direct. On Vietnam I did not think he
advanced that. Did you see anything new on that public record.

K: Not really.

R: Will have to see what Laird comes back with. . . His advice should
have a lot of influence on this point.

K: Yes. However, I think you would be - I know you would be wrong if
you went after ABM only.

R: That was my impression but I think you may get some noise from
Congress on that in the next session. Well you better go out and swim.
The boss is leaving shortly.

K: Will you be out here?

R: No. Don Ob______ will be out.

Rowland Evans/Mr. Kissinger

January 5, 1971 9:20 a.m.

jlj

(not verbatim)

E: We never seem to be in town at the same time. You are always out of town on vacation. I want to ask you a question. I don't know if you can answer it on the phone but when we started overflying the Suez Canal on August 8 and 9, when the truce was declared, the take off right from Greece, Turkey and Spain were denied I believe. I know they were denied. So we used Cyprus. If that is true doesn't that raise a very serious question of the dependability of Greece to us over the Middle East. They talk of being concerned because of the Greek nations...

K: I think this is exaggerated. It is not so easy to talk on the phone about this. The availability of land bases in the Mediterranean area is one of the most tremendous inhibitions we now have. One of the startling things when I took this job - this is on deep background -

E: Of course.

K: I always thought of the Mediterranean as our lake - I was brought up believing it. But the problem of logistics of moving in there is great.

E: How long do you think you will be in California?

K: Well, I will be back over the weekend and then coming back out here again.

E: Do you have any time - Saturday or Sunday.

K: I am pretty busy.

E: Do you have a half hour when you could see me on Saturday or Sunday. I would be glad to come to your house or the White House. I will be home all weekend.

K: If I can possibly work in a half an hour I will do so. Otherwise I will have breakfast with you on Friday the 15th.

E: What did you think of the President last night?

K: What did you think?

E: I thought he moved toward center with the Soviet Union. His tone was not bellicose and...

K: Is that bad?

E: The emphasis on the positive rather than the negative. We don't have

By NARA, Date 5/26

our problems solved but we are willing to negotiate and talk. It was positive
from the way the President worded it.

K: That was intentional.

E: He spoke of non-comprehensive agreement.

K: That was terminological. Our first two proposals were comprehensive

E: I believe we will be talking to the Russians within 3 - 4 days weeks on the
Middle East.

K: It may take a little longer.

E: OK Henry. If you have a minute this weekend I would like to see you
otherwise it will be breakfast on the 15th.

By NARA, Dalo 5/26

Gerard Smith/Mr. Kissinger

(not verbatim)

January 5, 1971 9:40 a.m.

jlj

K: I have been called out here on this non-comprehensive wording that the President used last night. I wanted to talk to you so that there was no talking from your shop. . .

S: There will be no leaking here.

K: In our definition what we are doing is not non-comprehensive. I would not go any further on that. I asked Haig to call you on it. There are two separate things . . . 3 different . . . FBA thing - Rogers definition and thirdly talking about the one thing you always thought might be broken out at the right moment.

S: I understand.

K: We have to hold the line. ABC only agreement. I didn't want any ABC speculations coming out of your shop.

S: There will be no talking from my shop.

K: We want all of us to be on the same wicket.

S: That won't be too difficult. I thought it was first rate what was said. . . . There is one other respect to this.

K: What is the other?

S: It is difficult to talk over the phone about this. The sort of thing you and I talked about . . . deminishes of the critical (phonetic). . .

K: I understand. . . try at the other thing at the beginning of Vienna.

S: I don't think we should talk about this over an open line. I assume that all Washington lines are monitored by the Soviet Embassy. Thank you very much for this information.

K: Good bye

By NARA, Date 5/26

Joseph Sisco/Mr. Kissinger

January 5, 1971

11:16 A.M.

(not verbatim)

jlj

S: The purpose of my call was to really fill you in on our day in New York yesterday.

K: I didn't know you were in New York.

S: The Secretary and I went up to have a chat with Jarring and U Thant, that eminent stateman of the United Nations.

K: Isn't he something?

S: Two things were emphasized. We told Jarring ought to try to get into a little bit of the substance right away in order to get things going to make it easier for the ceasefire in February.

K: Do you have anything in mind?

S: What he can do in this exercise is build on our initiative of last June. All he has to do is really to indicate where there is consensus on several of these points without coming to the nutcracking stage of borders, etc. It would be an impasse before it even got started. We would like him to build and work on our points that have a mutual benefit to both parties. Things like peace commitments recognizing Israel's right to sovereignty. Rights through Suez.

K: Will the Arabs play ball.

S: I do not know but he should try. It would give us a certain amount of lead. . . It was really a hand holding process to try to use the initiative. I do not know how far it will get or how hard he will push but we tried to goose him. The hour the President was on was excellent.

K: What did you think of the Middle East part.

S: Soviets - firm but non-committal (sounded like cominical). It was a satisfactory hour on behalf of the Administration. How long will you be out there?

K: I wanted to have an SRG meeting on Monday. Maybe we could talk briefly afterwards?

S: Will you be here?

K: Yes. Just for the one day. I will be there for the weekend and then I am coming back out here.

S: I will see you then. Happy New Year.

By. NARA, Dale 5/26

Tony Day (LA Times)/Mr. Kissinger (not verbatim)

January 5, 1971 11:55 a.m.

jlj

K: I could probably do it in Los Angeles on Thursday around 5 p.m.

What kind of a group would it be?

D: Same kind of group you met with last time. Is that all right with you?

K: I will leave it up to you.

D: We will probably do it that way.

K: Is Otis back?

D: I do not know when he is going to be back or whether he would be there Thursday. I will have to check across the hall. Nothing else has been laid on.

K: It doesn't matter. I might conceivably do it tomorrow but Thursday is better. If not Thursday perhaps I could do it Wednesday of next week.

D: I will check it out and get back to your secretary.

By. NARA, Dato 5/26

Paul Doty/Mr. Kissinger

January 5, 1971 12 noon

jlj

(not verbatim)

D: I am getting worried that my schedule is getting out of kilter with yours. I am leaving Friday or Saturday.

K: Yes, although I will be in Washington this weekend and could see you then. I don't want to get all bogged down with a lot of appointments but I will see you. I thought you were not leaving until next Friday.

D: That date is the ____ group. I could call you on the secure phone from Washington. ... redoing everything ...

K: As it is I am coming in late Friday afternoon for dinner for Freeman.

D: I was going to leave Friday night and stay in Paris a day but I can knock that out.

K: Let me check my schedule. I wanted to keep Saturday morning free to catch up on some things but I will definitely make time for you - perhaps an hour around 10 a.m. Then you could meet me at the plane and talk for 1/2 hour coming in from the airport. Do you want to consider that?

D: What time do you get in?

K: 4 or 4:30 p.m.

D: Out at Andrews. That's rather tenuous but perhaps better than anything else.

K: What we absolutely do not need now is the idea that some hot ideas are needed. If they will move they will find us more than willing to reciprocate. ... message get across to them. Do they want to continue needling or make a big move.

D: Do you think it is frozen until after the Congress?

K: I just cannot tell.

D: Let me work out both of these and let me tell your secretary what would be the most convenient for me. Let's leave it to her at that then if K you do not hear from me I will plan to ride in from the plane with you.

K: Work out with Dave Young when I am arriving.

D: I should see Jerry Smith shouldn't I?

K: I think that would be a good idea. How's everything in Cambridge?

By. NARA, Date 5/26

D: It will not be me I hear. Bock for President, Dunlop for Provost and me for Dean.

K: You do not need to to it. You would be distinguished in either.

D: No.

K: They should have you as Provost and leave Dunlop as Deane. How old is Bock?

D: 38 years old. I will just have to wait to find out what happens.

K: When are they going to make the appointment.

D: I heard the announcement would be made next Monday. I am not sure. I am very much in the dark. I'll see you Friday.

K: Goodby

NARA. Date 5/26

Telecon
Frank Shakespeare
1/5/71 12:30 p.m.

S: Before I left I wanted to get your counsel about anything to say or not to say. I am leaving tonight and staying in Athens. I'll be having dinner with Tasca and with his country team tomorrow night. Thursday morning I am calling on the Prime Minister. And that's all for Greece. Anything special I should say?

K: You know our general position on that. What you should say to Tasca is that whatever we have said before is reaffirmed.

S: Okay. I'll be with teh Sixth Fleet for two days but that isn't of any consequence. I'm stopping at three places in Saudi Arabia: Jidda, Riad (?) and the headquarters of Aramco. In Jidda I'm seeing the Henry Kissinger, if you will, of Saudi Arabia. Then in Riad I'm meeting with King Faisal. I asked if this would just be a pro forma meeting and they said no, the King really liked to talk with people and get their ideas. Then I meet with Aramco . . .

K: I would be very interested to get the King's reaction on the Middle East leaving aside the Arab-Israeli issue. I can't tell you a lot about that except to say they will have to trade legitimacy for territory: they can't have both. The maximum amount of peace they can meet will help get back the '67 borders.

S: My thought was to draw him out on his attitude about any thought regarding the Persian Gulf.

K: And also how he visualizes the evolution in that area and the Soviet role in the Indian Ocean and the recovery of the radical states apart from the Arab-Israeli dispute.

S: Okay. At Aramco there will be a briefing by the Aramco officials.

K: I believe in the invincible stupidity of the American businessman.

S: That's because you are a Harvard snob but I won't argue.

K: No, I have never seen a group with such an idiotic concept of our foreign policy and of their own interests. When I read in the Communist press . . . amazing.

S: I happen to agree with you. Okay, then I go to two shiekdoms: Abudabi (?) and _________ and I meet with the two rulers. I will be interested in their thoughts on the federation.

By NARA, Date 5/26

Telecon
Frank Shakespeare

1/5/71 12:30 p.m. page 2

K: Yes, and what role they visualize for us in that.

S: The ruler in Abudabi may bring up the boundary between them and Saudi Arabia. I will just listen if he does.

K: When will you be back?

S: The 23rd. Then I go to Kuwait and call on the ________. In Cairo I have lunch with largely media people.

K: In Cairo, try to convince them that the White House is not after them with State being big brother.

S: Okay. I am seeing Hakel (?) and the Foreign Minister. Anything to say to them?

K: I would make it clear to both, Hakel has said it's the White House which has taken the anti-Arab position. Bergus feeds them that stuff but it can't be in anybody's interest. One other thing: Egypt can't get out of the great power contest by just renouncing it. They continue in it as long as the Russians have bases there.

S: I agree fully. Then on to Tunis. I'll have a three-day meeting with public affairs officers. I have taken them from Saudi Arabia to Kuwait all the way over to Morocco that relate to this flank of the Soviet Union. I'm going to have a session on their sense of the way things are going. Bergus will meet us there. In each case, I will be staying with the Ambassador. And the Ambassador, later on in the evening will say 'How are things going?' Is there any nuance I can give them?

K: Let them know that they shouldn't play the game that one area is State's and another is the White House's and also give them our view on the Arab-Israeli dispute, that is important. And also the U.S.-Soviet component there and on Arab radicalism which won't be erased entirely by the settlements there. But don't attribute these things to me or I'll be getting letters.

S: Okay. Thank you very much for calling.

K: Thank you. Have a good trip and I look forward to seeing you when you get home.

By NARA, Date 5/26

Telecon
Henry Brandon
1/5/71 2:35 p.m.

B: I am delighted you are coming.

K: Unless something totally unforeseen occurs ... I may
try to organize some sort of message from the President. But you want
me to say something on behalf of the Administration?

B: Yes ... it's not necessary ...

K: No, I'd be delighted. But I wanted to know how appropriate you think it is.

B: It would really be something for John.

K: You mean if I did it?

B: Yes.

K: If you think it appropriate I'd like to do it -- he's just about my
favorite official in Washington.

B: Then I think it appropriate.

K: You will make a toast?

B: Yes, and then I suppose he will say something.

K: Do I speak after you or him? I guess after you.

B: Yes, I think so.

K: Will you organize that then so it's reasonably orderly.

B: There will be no fisticuffs.

K: Okay.

B: Could I say that your letter to Brown will be included in his book?

K: Certainly. Could you say that where?

B: In my toast.

By. NARA, Date 5/26

Telecon
Henry Brandon

1/5/71 2:35 p.m. page 2

K: Certainly.

B: I thought it would be nice for everyone to know that.

K: yes, but do say that I sent it without his knowledge. I'll say a
few informal words on my behalf and what it meant to us and to me personally
and then if I have a Presidential sort of message I'll get up again to read that, just t
separate the two.

B: Perfect. Have you had any chance to discuss our plans?

K: No, but I shall out here.

B: I thought the President was extraordinarily good at the press conference.
I don't understand why not make more use of this medium.

K: His innate sense of fairness prevents him. Why take advantage of
the opposition.

B: I think that's going too far. Even Kennedy didn't have this kind of
fluency.

K: And he is clearly on top of his subjects.

B: Anyone who has this kind of weapon at his disposal and can keep with
it so well . . . Of course, it's true one shouldn't overdo things. But this
has more appeal with the public than anything I can think of.

K: Of course it's very dangerous. You blow one question . . . not
publicly but in foreign policy. And it doesn't matter how good you are, the
effort of getting ready is fantastic.

B: I thought of writing a piece for the New York Times saying the press
makes up its mind whether it wants an acrobatic act or serious answers with
a supplementary question.

K: I think that's a good point. When you speak of our plan do you mean
your interview of me?

B: No, the book.

K: Yes.

B: Any chance of your seeing Harold Evans during the weekend? When
are you leaving again?

By.

NARA, Date 5/26

Telecon
Henry Brandon

1/5/71 2:35 p.m. page 3

K: Monday noon.

B: Are you doing anything Saturday at lunch?

K: Well, for one thing I have Nancy Maginnes here.

B: We can have her too.

K: Can we keep that open?

B: Yes. I'd like him to meet you in a more extended way. He was
skiing in Vermont with us and he asked about you.

K: What did you tell him?

B: I told him a little about you and our plans and so on, but I haven't mentioned the book at all.

K: Keep lunch on Saturday tentatively open and I'll discuss it.

B: We can have it at the house and have Nancy along and have Muffie.

K: That would be great. I'm a great admirer of your wife.

B: Okay. Many thanks for calling and I'll arrange everything for the toasts.

K: Okay. And I shall be brief and laudatory.

B: I am not very good at this.

K: Well, I get embarrassed. But I don't make friends easily and I consider... I value very much having had the chance to make his friendship.

B: I would mean a lot to him.

K: I'd like to say that and that's why I offered it. How many people will be there?

B: 24. Unfortunately, the Richardsons just cancelled. He had to go to California.

K: I am told that. I don't know what it is about. I'm told he is meeting with the Los Angeles times group on Friday. I don't know whether it has anything to do with the President.

By. NARA, Date 5/26

Telecon
Henry Brandon

1/5/71 2:35 p.m. page 4

B: Ann was very disappointed in his going up to New Hampshire. I think they don't see him at all now.

K: That is a pity.

B: Otherwise we have had no cancellations. We had an acceptance from David Frost.

K: Is he bringing Dianne?

B: I don't know. Also we'll have Penelope ________. She is a great friend of Catherine. Also have you every met Max Hayward?

K: No, I don't even know who he is.

B: He's one of the front leads of Dr. Zhivago.

K: Oh of course I know who he is.

B: He knows more about Russian literature than anyone I can think of

By. NARA, Date 5/26

Telecon
Deputy Secretary Packard
1/5/71 ca. 3:45 p.m.
(Secure Phone)

P: Couple of things: Are you aware of this ________ authorized the ________. We've got intelligence in and they've located some missiles. They want to extend the authority. It goes in from Route 137 -- they operate along that road. The missiles they have found are 10 miles up Route 101 to the north. They request authority for armed reconnaissance and if they see anything to attack. ________ authorized continuing till January 11. If you have any question . . . the ________ Okay, we'll go ahead. The second question regards the Chup Plantation ________ plan. That is scheduled to go on January 15, but we need to give them tentative authority for planning. We have information on U.S. assets that will be involved. I thought I should let you know what they are. The U.S. resources needed are three ________ assault ________ helicopter companies. That's about 60 to 75 helicopters. . . . . . . . . . . Well, the length is as late as 1 July, but what we are talking about here is getting the men so that within a few hours . . . . yes, that's included. It's actually 75 helidopters . . . . . . . They are all stationed in Vietnam . . . have to touch down in Chup area to let these fellows off. . . . . . . . . . This is to transport these men . . . . . That's for the first 6(?) hours and also for standby as needed. We can't afford to let them go for a three-month period or whatever. But this is a big operation; there will be a good 22,000 ARVN troops and it's going to last some time. I think we go ahead and if we get in trouble we may have to break off the support. . . . . . Yes, we have that in the message. That's thoroughly understood. This approval is all planning. It's not an execute until 15 January so we could put a hold on it at the last minute.

Another question: to what extent has State been brought in on these operations? . . . . . . . . . If they know about the Chup operation I'm having lunch with Alex Johnson . . . . If you rather it be held tight we don't need to . . . . . Okay, we'll do it that way . . . . . .

No, while you're on, let me give you a little background on . . . . George and M ________ have talked about that -- I think we are all set on everything. That Route 4 operation. In order to support that we will probably need some C-130s to land at Reem (?) -- the airport next to Sihanoukville. C-130 supply planes. . . . . . We realize that and, let me get back to . . . . . . We landed them at Kampong Chom. We are presumably landing them at Phnom Penh. . . . . I don't have any trouble with that. If you have any trouble, let me know . . . Let me tell you about the other problem: We need a helicopter gunship for support on that Ban Karai Pass operation. It's too far to operate from Vietnam. One alternative is to put a ship in that will handle the helicopters off the coast or we

By. NARA, Dato 5/26

Telecon
The President
1/5/71 4:00 p.m.

P: I'm just calling to tell you that from our reactions in the East the thing last night seemed to have gone well.

K: I had excellent reactions.

P: Carruthers called around. He said this was better than the other. It was a better setting and better variety of questions. Then I asked him the key question. My daughters both liked the press conferences better -- they were more exciting, more interesting.

K: My judgment is first that you should have the mix, but I think this is a better format because it gives the public a sense of confidence.

P: Even though you are talking over their heads.

K: But you are giving them a sense that you are on top of everything. You had the detail and the point of view and you did it in a humble way. The public will never understand the details, but they like the sense that their President is on top of them. That you conveyed in a really masterful way. Brandon called awhile ago . . .

P: I had a wonderful talk with Freeman . . .

K: I talked with Freeman and he was really moved.

P: He said the U.S. and Britain have to stick together. He didn't come out and say that I should be re-elected, but he said it was very important that until 1976 Heath and I work together. I thought that was nice. Did he feel good about it?

K: He was enormously moved and said it was a privilege to work with you.

P: We made a friend there, didn't we?

K: Yes. He thinks American liberals have gone soft. He feels, despite his old liberal leanings, more comfortable with you.

P: I am in a sense a real radical too.

K: He thinks you are bringing about a change in foreign policy that won't be understood by the rest of the world for quite awhile and that's why to him it's essential that you stay in office.

By. NARA, Date 5/26

Telecon
The President.

1/5/71 4:00 p.m. page 2

P: I told him I know this town and the way people are in it and it would have been more popular for him to kick the President around and he didn't and I was grateful.

K: And Henry Brandon said it was a spectacular performance and that you are better at it than Kennedy, more articulate and more disciplined.

P: Really? That's like talking against Christ.

K: He said why don't you do it more often. I told him you do it so well because you spend days preparing for it and don't take these things lightly.

P: That for him is a tremendous acknowledgement.

K: And Chalmers Roberts wanted clarification on SALT so he called me, but he was extremely complimentary.

P: I thought I was quite clear on SALT.

K: No, it's the non-comprehensive . . .

P: That we are ready to move from that to limited?

K: Yes, but we haven't said it before; now we have to avoid Jerry Smith running wild with it. But I said it was against accidental war and he was satisfied with that. He thought you were precise with the right combination of conciliatoriness and firmness with the Soviets. Altogether it was a great plus. And Rowland Evans called me and he felt the same way. They may never write this . . .

P: I don't care about that.

K: He wants to know what it means about the Middle East. I said generally the President's words were self-explanatory.

P: But you can always elaborate a little. How about your friends out here?

K: I called Taft Schreiber last night as you suggested. He thought it was very effective. Since he didn't raise it, I didn't see any need to apologize for it.

P: The main thing about a treaty is you have to spell out what you are going to do. We must do the right thing for Israel but not put it in the treaty.

By. NARA, Date 5/26

Telecon
The President

1/5/71 4:00 p.m. page 3

K: And in many ways alliances are getting outmoded anyway. Countries fight for their interests, and not just for alliances.

P: Especially with nuclear weapons around.

K: I think it was a tremendous plus.

P: At least for the next two or three months you're not going to hear people crying about why don't you have a press conference.

K: And I'm practically certain that now they'll stop talking about divisions, because you were extremely conciliatory. Your whole posture was that of a man trying to lead the whole country. And you gave a good explanation of your role in the campaign. I am not surprised that your rating went up in our own poll after the last one and I would be amazed if this didn't do the same thing.

P: You never can tell about that.

K: But you have the initiative now. Now you have the State of the Union on the ______ and the foreign policy report I think will be better this year than last.

P: But we have to get more coverage on it.

K: As a historical document this is going to be a good record. But we have to get a publicity job on it.

P: I might televise it -- say here is the report and then give a 10-minute summary. Go on at 7:00 and say I want just 10 minutes. Give a summary at the beginning, basically read it, and then say it's available to anyone; we will send it to you for 10 cents.

K: Excellent idea and you could give the main theme of it.

P: Of we could give it to them free.

K: But usually people read more if they pay a little. But I guess writing for it is a commitment in itself.

P: Or I wouldn't have to say that it was available; the announcer would say that.

K: That will be ready by February 15, so that is going to be a strong month, and then other things planned for April. And by that time . . . I am seeing Dobrynin soon. We can get a good feeling for what's obtainable.

By NARA, Date 5/26

Telecon
The President

1/7/71 4:00 p.m. page 4

I'll see him this weekend.

P: That's a good idea; he probably will have seen this.

K: You can bet your bottom dollar he will have. I noticed Kosygin picked up almost the same language at the year-end backgrounder that I gave.

P: You noticed how I handled the summit thing too? Dobrynin will appreciate this. He knows we are discussing it, but I said there has been speculation but when we have something to discuss then we will do it; if we don't we won't. How did you like my nightmare line?

K: Superb.

P: The Nixon Doctrine is trying to get more . . . Here's what they will try to say: that I'm pragmatic and effective, but no charisma, no leadership, no inspiration. But the thing is that people discover that a President is inspiration after he's left office.

K: That's right. Lincoln in office was ridiculed. And after two years in office what could Kennedy have said he had achieved in foreign policy if he had gone on television?

P: He did go on. But it was taped and they cut the bad stuff off. But I thought the nightmare line was good.

K: Very good. I think it is absolutely true and Freeman said what you are trying to do in foreign policy is so revolutionary . . . What you are doing in Vietnam is important. But that's not the major thing. You are giving back to America's friends a sense of dignity and doing it without withdrawing from the world. He said it's a tremendous tightrope act. We have this in the foreign policy report. He said everyone thought the first foreign policy report was quite an achievement but maybe a one-time thing. He said we should show the "Issues for the Future" part in each section from the last one and show what we have done. I think your introducing the report with a 10 - 15 minute statement is very good.

P: I am just glad we did do this thing. Think how we demolished with just two appearances and the midnight thing with the correspondents the idea that I am not seeing the press.

By. NARA, Dato 5/26

Telecon
Secretary Packard

1/7/71 8:40 a.m.

K: What is he doing? Telling me to go fly a kite?

P: I don't know.

K: If he wants a Presidential directive I'll get him one.

P: I'll get him on the phone and have a talk.

K: The President is going to be fit to be tied.

P: I understand and we got the message out as clear as we could.

K: Everyplace he goes he is popping off about the end of the combat role. The President ought to make that statement when he's ready.

P: I understand. I'll go to him again. One other thing, I'm going to try to get this FMS (?) MAP thing resolved so we don't have to bother the President. The only question we have is whether to use the Jackson Amendment or the FMS credit for Israel. Do you know what the President thinks about this? State wants to use the regular FMS credit so they can keep it in the Fulbright committee. We'd like to use the extra flexibility in the Jackson Amendment, as least part of it that would give flexibility and recognize that Jackson has been very helpful.

K: Frankly I don't think the President has an opinion on it. If you can get it resolved without bothering him he would probably prefer that, but if you can't float it up to him. He won't mind having to settle it.

P: I just wanted your opinion on it. Okay Henry. I will see if I can catch Mel.

By. NARA, Date 5/26

Ambassador Dobrynin/Mr. Kissinger (not verbatim)

January 6, 1971 8:45 a.m.

jlj

D: You sleep too late Henry.

K: I am in California what do you mean?

D: I called your office and they said you were in a deep sleep.

K: I was just wondering. Did Vorontsov call me?

D: No Henry. I asked Vorontsov to call to Mr. Young and give him a
special message to you. This is really in terms of our confidential channel.
I thought it would be all right because the message is in an envelope so that
only the two of us would know what it was. It is from the top to top.

K: Can an answer wait until I see you on Monday? I have not read the
message so I cannot tell you what I think.

D: It is a continuation of the talk between the President and Gromyko. In
line of the discussions which took place at the White House. The consultation
of the President and Gromyko at one point.

K: We are in the process of reviewing that whole issue anyway so I will
be glad to get this message. I am almost certain. . . I cannot give you an
answer now because I have not seen the message.

D: Continuation of what they discussed at the White House. That was a
continuation of what we discussed before.

K: I was just wondering when Vorontsov called if this was something you
were planning to delivery someplace else later in the day.

D: No. Not at all. This is in our channel. It is not going anywhere else.
That is why I wanted to call and tell you what these arrangements are. I did
not think it would hurt to have Vorontsov call Young.

K: Now I understand. This is only a technical problem.

D: I will see you on Monday.

K: Oh by the way. Would you mind if we made it 1/2 hour earlier?

D: You mean - Any time you say is fine with me.

K: It is now scheduled for 1 p.m. and I may have to leave earlier so if
is all right with you I may want to shift it to 12:30. Let's leave it at 1 and
if I have to leave earlier I will let you know and we will make it 12:30.

D: Fine.

By. NARA, Dato 5/26

Telecon
Ron Ziegler
1/6/71 9:40 a.m.

K: I read this thing.

Z: The NLF thing?

K: Yes, and I just would have to see the whole text to see whether they
______ to a coalition government. Why don't you just say it
seems to be the same thing. The issue to us was not the deadline as such
but the generally unacceptable conditions. It is best to say we have of-
fered to withdraw within a year of the settlement.

Z: Right, over a 12-month period. Okay, I'll keep it on that basis.
Okay, you covered me on the press reaction. Anything I can say about
Soviet Jews? It seems to be building up again. We are against violent
protest--in our country there is a right to peaceful protest. Can I say
something if I'm asked about our attitude toward persecution -- we sup-
port the premise that an individual should be given the right to freedom
of movement? That's better than saying "no comment".

K: The trouble is it will infuriate the Russians. If you can duck it I would
prefer it.

Z: But if I can't.

K: Then say we stand for human rights everywhere in the world.

By NARA, Dato 5/26

Ron Ziegler/Mr. Kissinger
January 6, 1971 10:08 a.m.
jlj

(not verbatim)

Z: Laird has said in Paris -

K: Oh no.

Z: It's not really that bad I just wanted to get some guidance. He says the phase 1 is just about over -

K: Of what?

Z: Of vietnamization. In other words he says we are way ahead of schedule and American forces will be out of the combat . . . by the end of this year. [reading]

K: Don't make any comment on that.

Z: Then he says that phase 2 should be turned over by the end of next year.

K: Don't make any comment, and I will turn Laird off. I have to do a backchannel to him. . . . no announcement on that. I will tell you one thing: Ron, this Administration is going to make a great contribution to theology because if we succeed with this cabinet there must be a God.

Z: That's great. Be sure and write that down Julie. Write it down and tuck it away for the future. On Cambodia he said [reading] (the road . . . down to the harbor. Phnom Penh to . . .)

K: No comment.

Z: Can I say we are watching that.

K: Yes. We are watching it.

Z: Thank you.

DECLASSIFIED
E.O. 12950, Sect. 3.6

By. 5

NARA, Dato 5/26

Telecon
Secretary Packard
1/6/71 12:10 p. m.
(Secure Phone)]

K: I just talked to the President about our conversation yesterday and I just wanted to confirm what we discussed. One, it's all right to go after these missile sites on Route 101 and my understanding is that these are just missile sites.

P: Or missile transporters.

K: But it's not a supply dump raid.

P: No, just missiles.

K: All right -- that he wants done. When will that be done? As soon as the weather clears?

P: Well, it's authorized till the 11th of this month and then we'll look at it again. But they are armed reconnaissance flights and will attack only when they find something.

K: But the Air Force has had this authority for two weeks now and they haven't hit. Oh well, that's their problem.

P: I can't help you on that problem too much.

K: No, but I am really struck by their perfectionism. The other operation, the KX C-130s going into the airport is okay. My understanding is this is supplies.

P: Right.

K: No problem. The helicopter operations should be done from ships.

P: Okay, Mel is very concerned about even using ships. But as long as I have your feeling . . .

K: The President has no problem on ships.

P: But no land bases I am sure.

K: No. In the Chup Plantation his feeling is whatever is needed to make it go in as much of a framework that we can say we were delivering supplies as possible. If we can put supplies on these that will help him, but he is willing to take the heat.

By. NARA, Date. 5/26

Telecon
Secretary Packard

1/6/71 12:10 p.m. page 2

(Secure Phone)

P: We can do that. Now we are just authorizing this for planning. We won't give the execute till the 15th.

K: You'll have to give it before that, won't you?

P: Yes, a little before. I think it's a good operation and has to go. No, the only problem is how long.

K: He is willing to take the heat for a few months now if it buys us time at the other end.

P: While you are on, I checked into the question of the MAP and discussed it with the Bureau of the Budget. I talked to Alex about it and State and we have some disagreements still.

K: They want to cut it down?

P: It's not very critical. Hate to bother the President.

K: Just tell me what the issue is.

P: Well, it's two things: one, whether we should use the Jackson Amendment for the Israel credit or go FMS all the way. Our feeling about it is to use the Jackson Amendment for two reasons: because it gives more flexibility and because Jackson has gone out of his way working on this and we don't want to insult him. The other problem is the question of holding it to 110 for Turkey/I hate to see the President bothered on these two-bit issues. I'm going to try to take care of it.

K: Okay. We are eager to get that mission to Indochina. Is that on track?

P: I think so, but I'll check on it and get back to you.

By

NARA, Dato

5/26

Mr. Kissinger/Ambassador Dobrynin

January 6, 1971 12:35 p.m.

jlj

(not verbatim)

K: I have just talked about that document with the President and I will be prepared to discuss it with you on Monday but I wanted to be sure I knew what the precise question is to which you want an answer. The question is not clear. You said there is one question in particular to which you want an answer and I was calling to make sure I knew what it was.

D: About the first page, to speed up the whole process. Secondly, from our side and from your side point of view - you remember Gromyko's discussion with the President.

K: That you are prepared to go forward on this basis.

D: How it was handled there --

K: I understand, I understand. We are looking at this with a very constructive attitude.

D: Constructive position. We are quite prepared to - I have instructions which I did not want to put in writing in that message - if President OKs we could have some talks between you and I. I have instruction to tell the President . . . details of the major issues - we are prepared to go but both of us should talk -

K: For your information I think I will be prepared to talk with you. Perhaps on Monday we will not be able to deal with all of it but get the basis for which our discussions will take place.

D: This one and maybe the next one can discuss most useful things to do to speed up.

K: At least I could explain to you how I think it can be done.

D: It probably can be taken care of in 2 or 3 meetings and then see the President -

K: 2 or 3 meetings to narrow the thing.

D: Not how to solve but direction where we go.

K: What we think our needs are and what you can do about them and then we will treat your needs in the same way.

D: Two things - speeding up two major points which was discussed with the President.

K: I thought that is what you were saying but I wanted to check. Now that

By. NARA, Dalo 5/26

is taken care of all I have to worry about is what you will do to my
wasteline.

D: Don't worry about that. I have been reading with pleasure about your adventures there. It sounds as if you have been having a good time but it is good for you.

K: Once we get to know each other better perhaps you will show me the file you have on me.

D: No. We don't have a file seriously. Is our meeting 1 or 12:30?

K: Let's leave it at 1 p.m. then I will not keep you waiting.

D: 1 p.m. then.

By. NARA, Dalo 5/26

Ron Ziegler/Mr. Kissinger (not verbatim)

January 6, 1971 12:45 p.m.

j1j

Z: We run into this all the time. Whenever we come out here it seems that Laird or Rogers has gone on a trip and we get in all sorts of questions about do you concur with Secretary of Defense or don't you? I did not concur. It was pretty fuzzy and I kept wobbling around.

K: I talked to the President and he absolutely want to hold this line.

Z: I am not going to state when U.S. ground forces are complete. Responsibility will be taken over by the South Vietnamese.

K: Ron, don't let them drive you any further.

Z: What can I do when it is a statement by the Secretary of Defense. I can't just ignore it.

K: I would not give too much credence to their statements.

Z: They asked about completion of American troops -

K: Ron - just let's not say any more. I would just say we have no more to say.

Z: On the supplemental. Read that and then got on Cambodia troops -

K: We are just talking too much. I don't want any more said. Are you coming along to the Los Angeles Times?

Z: Yes, I think so. Is that all right?

K: That's fine. I will let them know.

By. NARA, Dalo

5/26

Telecon
Rose Woods

1/6/71 1:00 p.m.

W: Could you go over to the residence for dinner at 7:00 tonight?

K: Who's going to be my date?

W: You're going to be Arnold Palmer's date.

K: What? !

W: Mrs. Palmer isn't here and he didn't want to invite a lady for him. So it will be Gerry and Barbara Ford, the President and Mrs. Nixon, Delores and Bob Hope, Palmer and hopefully Henry Kissinger.

K: Tell him I'd be delighted. What's the uniform.

W: Sport jacket. The boss told Bob Hope that last night.

By. NARA, Date. 5/26

Telecon
George Bush
1/6/71 ca. 1:15 p.m.

K: I never had an opportunity to tell you how delighted I am with
your appointment.

B: I'm so excited about it, but I hate to bother you. I would like
to see you some time before I embark on this.

K: You never bother me. We look on you as our man and we would
like to feel that you will work directly with us.

B: I am learning so much. I may be able to talk intelligently about
it in another week or so. What I'd mainly like is to pick your brain.

K: I will be back in Washington with the President on the evening
of the 14th.

B: What I would like is just a quiet evening. I've got a lot of things
I need to ask you.

K: When are you moving to New York?

B: We've got to get this confirmation thing first.

K: Then it won't be much before the first of next month?

B: No.

K: In any event between the 14th and the end of the month we
will find an evening.

B: Good. Thank you sir.

K: I am delighted.

By. NARA, Date 5/26

Telecon
Henry Brandon
1/6/71 1:30 p.m.

K: I was going to let you know about lunch.

B: Yes.

K: And even though you didn't promise me Chinese food I'll be delighted to come.

B: About 12:45?

K: Good. May I bring Nancy?

B: Yes. And do you want Chinese food?

K: I'm wild about it.

B: Good, we'll arrange that.

K: That would be great. I'll try to get the Presidential message for John, but this is between us. But I don't know whether your dinner of Key Graham's would be the best.

B: Hers is in a sort of public restaurant.

K: I really don't know.

B: It's at lucky something [Pierre's] -- I don't know the name. It's in L'Enfant Plaza.

K: I don't know where that is.

B: Buy my impression is it's going to be a rather biggish catch-all. It depends on whether you want to have it . . .

K: What do you think he would like the best?

B: Frankly, I think he is a rather private man. He would probably prefer it in front of 24 rather than 120. If you like I can find out what the exact arrangements there are.

K: No, I can call Kay.

B: I think it's nicer to have it in a private small group.

K: Right.

By. NARA, Date 5/26

Telecon
Henry Brandon

1/6/71 1:30 p.m. page 2

B: But that's up to you.

K: The whole thing might become moot. I may not be able to get it.

B: If you will only let me know if you do get it if you are going to announce it at my dinner or . . .

K: That I will certainly let you know about.

B: All sorts of people that have little to do with the Freemans have been asked to hers. It seems to me a fantastically large group. I'll leave it entirely to your judgment.

K: Let me see if I can get anything but why don't you let me in any event say a few words now at your thing on behalf of the Administration after you get through with your benediction.

B: Good. Kay will be at my party too.

K: Good. You've got the whole liberal establishment there, as my colleagues would say.

B: I don't think so. It's very mixed. After all you are there.

K: Okay. I'm delighted that lunch on Saturday is still possible. It will be just the five of us?

B: Yes.

By. NARA, Date 5/26

Telecon
Kay Graham

1/6/71 2:00 p.m.

G: Don't tell me you are finking out on us. And of course I'd like
Nancy to come. We let your office know that.

K: What sort of party is it going to be? Are there going to be
speeches and things?

G: I shouldn't think so -- I haven't thought about it really.

K: I'm not volunteering -- I'm already giving two.

G: It's a rowdy party.

K: I love those.

G: We put it in a restaurant. I thought it would be nice to have it
in a restaurant. The restaurant is just a restaurant but the Plaza is
beautiful.

K: And it will go for awhile that evening?

G: I would think interminably.

K: So that evening is not the time to get back to California.

G: I wouldn't think so. We're going to seat it so people won't get
stranded and lost.

K: That's good.

G: So I hope it will be decent.

K: No too decent.

G: No, I hope it will be gay. It's going to be a discotheque with records
with barbecued chicken and rise and pie and ice cream.

K: It's not a terfibly formal affair.

G: no, Sunday night garb. Turtle necks for men and pants for girls.

K: I don't have any turtle necks.

G: Then wear an open shirt.

By. NARA, Dato 5/26

Telecon
Kay Graham

1/6/71 2:00 p.m. page 2

K: I'll arrive with a tie and we'll go from there. Good, this gives me a rough idea and an excuse to talk to you without complaining about Maxine Cheshire or Phil Geyelin.

G: Would you and Nancy like to come to Sunday lunch for Berry and E&X Bingham? If you don't want to just say you don't want to.

K: Okay, I'll say that: I just don't want to. No, let me check on that.

G: I just want you to know I am foresquare behind Phil Geyelin. I adore you Henry, but I like him to and I back him.

K: I like him too. No one can know him without thinking him a serious, dedicated and decent man and very able too. No one here loves criticism, but I like him too. I am personally very fond of him. Good, I will let you know about the luncheon on Saturday Sunday.

By. NARA, Date 5/26

Henry Hubbard/Mr. Kissinger
January 6, 1971 2:15 p.m.

jlj

(not verbatim)

H: I wanted to see you or talk to you.

K: Do not be presumptuous.

H: I am asking too much already.

K: I don't know if I should talk to the press, especially the radical
liberal press.

H: You have been talking to Ziegler. You are getting tougher and tougher. In your Washington Post background, luncheon you gave some things on Cuba but I wanted to check on the sequence of events.

K: You can't use that. What sequence did I give you?

H: At the luncheon you gave how the phrasing was worked out.

K: That cannot be used.

H: Not even on a deep background basis.

K: ... If we could have another weeks quiet on it it would help. For reasons I could explain a week from now. It is at a delicate stage. If we could get through another week.

H: We want to do our part. Just a brief story on the events running from last July right up through the President's comments last Monday night. We have to have something for the magazine.

K: I'll make this deal. Just put in this week's magazine what the President said Monday night. Then I will talk to you next week.

H: Let me try them on it.

K: What was given to you at the luncheon you cannot use.

H: I don't want to mislead you. We would like to get into what the Russians thought and wanted - you were seen coming out of the Russian Embassy on the 27th.

K: That I will not give you at any time. But if you hold off a week I will certainly give you a franker assessment next week than at this time.

By. NARA, Dato 5/26

H: I need some sort of argument for New York. We would like to talk to you and get some of the sequence like you gave at the luncheon.

K: You cannot use that. As for the rest you are free to write what was in the public record.

H: I am worried about what the President said Monday night when he used in or from was he elaborating on his own just as he did on bombing? Is talking about that type of thing going to rock the boat.

K: That is the sort of thing I will not comment on this week. There are two separate things - - I will not talk this week at all. I do not think it is in the national interest to speculate at all.

H: On what?

K: On what was agreed and not agreed and starting a new round of speculation. I think it is OK in the interests of everybody not to start this. This is not something we are trying to run from. It does not make us look bad but it is best if we do not say anything.

H: Were they a little disturbed by this.

K: No

H: No that is not fair to ask.

K: No. I will be in a much better position to discuss it a week from now about this time. I will promise that I will talk to no one else before I talk to you. You will not write any of what I have just said now.

H: Of course not. This is off the record.

By. NARA, Date 5/24

John Scali/Mr. Kissinger (not verbatim)

January 6, 1971 2:30 p.m.

jlj

S: I want to talk to you about a special live program we are doing on January 13 from 10 to 11 p.m. Lou Harris is doing a poll on the 12th and for the first time we are going to announce the results on television within a short time of the poll.

K: Before you finish I want to tell you I have made it a practice not to appear on television but go ahead and make your offer.

S: The program will deal with four general topics - law and order, youth, the economy and peace and war. In the peace and war area the question they are trying to answer is has the Vietnam experience made Americans isolationists? In order to get some sort of a determination Harris is asking 13 questions. The results of these questions will be on the program and discussing them will be Walt Rostow and Bill X Moyers. Since both are Democrats although we can rely on Rostow to give the Administration some backing we thought it would be a good idea if we could get you on the end of the telephone to discuss the questions. I thought we could have you at the end of a telephone in which you could make comments. We would then have an articulate spokesman for the Administration.

K: I would not be seen?

S: No. We could have you on if you wanted. We could just say we have Henry Kissinger at the other end of the phone. We would have an articulate advocate of the Administration.

K: I have refrained from going on television in substance situations. I have allowed profiles on myself personally and how the President works, etc.

S: It would be a discussion of the Lou Harris findings as a result of the poll.

K: Can I think about that overnight.

S: Yes you can sir. We could do it with you in San Clemente. Just have to be on the other end of the phone. We are devoting a lot of time to this.

K: I appreciate it as I have your general attitude over the years if I may take this opportunity to say. I will let you know tomorrow. I will probably not do it as I have not put myself in a position of being spokesman for the Administration. Let me talk to some of my colleagues here and I will call you tomorrow.

Telecon
Secretary Packard

1/6/71 2:55 p.m.

By NARA, Dato 5/26

K: The President got a little upset about some of the troop withdrawal statements. He asked me to get in touch with Mel and tell him not to say any more, but we are putting out a general directive so it isn't so pointed. We want to retain some freedom of action.

P: I will try to get word to him before his next news conference.

K: That's right. Good. Thank you.

By. NARA, Date 5/26

Telecon
Henry Hubbard
1/6/71 3:10 p.m.

H: I talked to the folks at Newsweek in New York and they are happy to be reasonable on this. We'll just do it with what's on the record. There may be enough for a separate story there and there may not be. But we have no desire to be irresponsible.

K: And this is not hurtful to the Administration.

H: Of course not. We're all in this country together. The only thing now is that Bob is concerned about what there is in there to be irresponsible about.

K: Just not getting into a big thing about who said what when. As long as you say what the President said and what Ron Ziegler said . . . A low-key account of what he said is fair enough.

H: Okay. And we can talk next week.

K: I hope so, but I promise you if I talk to anyone it will be to you.

H: Good. Thank you.

By. NARA, Dato 5/26

Telecon
Ron Ziegler

1/6/71 3:25 p.m.

K: I just wanted you to know I am seeing Herb Kaplow. He wanted five minutes worth of guidance for a year-end review.

Z: Great.

K: I thought you would have no objections.

Z: None at all. When are you seeing him?

K: In about half an hour. And Schecter and Griffith from LIFE have asked to see me briefly.

Z: Great. What time?

K: I forget. In the morning some time.

Z: Griffith also wants to see the President.

K: He won't see him.

Z: Why not?

K: Because he hates him. At least he told me that last year. But I may be wrong. It's happened before, . . . rarely but it's happened.

Z: I just read my briefing. I think I did all right. Laird backed off. They put a clarifying statement on that, saying he was referring to aggressive actions. On ground combat I said the President has said under no circumstances will we introduce ground combat forces into Cambodia. This is a rough business and it's getting rougher.

K: Now they're playing for blood.

Z: November 6, 1972 is going to be a very wonderful time. Then we can just concern ourselves with the things we have to do and not worry about this.

K: And I will be back at Harvard.

Z: You won't be back there. You are going to be the only Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs who has hung in there for eight years.

K: Resigning three times a month.

D'CLASSIFIED
E.O. 12958, Sect. 3.6

By. NARA, Date 5/26

Telecon
Amb. Mosbacher
1/6/71 4:25 p.m.

K: What can I do for you?

M: I don't know that there's anything. You asked me to call you by this evening to let you know my thinking. I feel this way -- if I am very seriously interested in doing it I would like to talk with you and perhaps with the President to get an idea of what course it would take and what it would involve.

K: My advice is don't bother the President. You can never make a treaty with the President. He wants you in the Administration because he trusts you. What form it will take is between you and me. I will arrange a meeting with the President for you if you want it but I think it is a mistake to do it. I think you should tell Rogers that you are interested in the job. I talked to Haldeman and that's what he thinks you should do.

M: I'll talk to him as soon as he gets back. And when you are back I would like to talk with you about two things: In looking into this, I find some things. In protocol rank I would be with Assistant Secretaries (?) but my working rank would have me working with Charlie.

K: But doesn't every ambassador do that?

M: I don't think so. It doesn't matter to me where I set at a table. . . .

K: You should get the same rank as any other ambassador.

M: I'm not worried about rank, but I am concerned with the first thing I said to you. I don't want to feel that I am working in the bureaucracy. I don't want or need that. If I am working directly with you, that's great.

K: That's our attraction to having you in this job. I can always guarantee you access to me. It will take a little finessing but it is to our advantage for you to do this for a year or so so that after the election of '72 we can move you to a more substantive job.

That's why

M: I don't know. I am interested. Having very little background on this I need some time to become proficient in this area.

K: You are going to be an increasingly influential citizen as the years go by even if we are defeated in '72. It is important that you speak from something more than just protocol. Linowitz has build a fair reputation out of this job and others have too and so can you. Even assuming

By. NARA, Dalo 5/26

Telecon
Amb. Mosbacher

1/6/71 4:25 p.m. page 2

you leave the government in '72, you could do things you haven't done in
the post and this would intitle you to a voice and position in the community
that you deserve. How many men of character do you know?

M: I am very flattered.

K: No, I mean it. Like John Dickey. I know the names of 200 men
with his experience and qualifications but not 20 with his character. There
will be some rough going. I won't be as accessible as I now sound but I'll
tell Nachmanoff to make sure you get the full backing of the White House
and any time you say you need to see me and it's really important I'll
make sure you do. The Administration doesn't need your name now, but it
needs your loyalty.

M: You told me not to speak to people...

K: You can speak as soon as Rogers offers it to you. Why don't you
wait till Tuesday before you call Rogers.

M: Okay, and in the meantime the other thoughts: one thing in all
honesty -- I mentioned to you I can't consider anything but Washington or
New York for family and health reasons, if they take a turn to the worse...

KM: You'd have to leave.

M: I wanted you to know this situation does exist.

K: That's true of all of us. If you could get a year in -- let you get some
substantive experience under your belt so we are more blexible in employing
you. We would give you Spain but you don't want to leave this country.

M: I can't at this point.

K: So if we give you the OAS we can build that into a major thing.
Then in 1973 supposing you can't stay in the government, you could go back
to your business and be on some commissions you haven't been on before.

M: One thing I wanted you to know about. Some of the companies whose
boards I served on have talked to me about coming back. This has weighed
very heavily because my business life was and will be again very important.

K: But won't you be more attractive to them two or three years from now?

M: Probably, but you lose touch with these businesses when you are

By. NARA, Dato 5/26

Tebidcon
Marshall Green

1/7/71 8:55 a.m.

K: I'm just going through the Indonesia package. The President will be fit to be tied if we don't get something going on this. Sueharto was here it must be a year ago now. He promised Sueharto we would do something to survey their military situation.

G: That's what we are proposing. As soon as we get an okay on that paper we'll move. But the way I know the President wants to do more on the LST. The Pentagon says ...

K: I'll do something with them.

G: We think they can absorb it.

K: His feeling is we are going to drive them over to the Soviet supplies.

G: I don't think that's the problem. We described that problem in the paper, but let's get the team out there to explore the situation. One other thing: if you can give us the okay let's move by the end of January, so I ... do more on the LST.

K: You will have it by the end of the day.

G: One other thing: Indonesian training of Cambodians. We are working now on a redraft -- we are moving on that. It should be in your hands either today or tomorrow.

K: Okay, thank you.

Ron Ziegler/Mr. Kissinger

January 7, 1971 9:30 a.m.

jlj

(not verbatim) By NARA, Dato 5/26

Z: Henry, the Senator from Maine, Margaret Chase Smith is bitching about the ship ~~XK~~ yard up there in Portland.

K: Portsmouth?

Z: I mean New Hampshire. Let me start all over again. I have Senator Muskie on my mind.

K: What is Margaret Chase Smith writing about New Hampshire for?

Z: [reading] A White House source said last year that the Portsmouth yard would be open and now Pentagon officials have said they have nothing to confirm the report.

K: This is a battle between Laird and the President. I think Laird intends to close it. Just say we will discuss it with Laird.

Z: I have heard the President say we will keep it open.

K: I have heard the President say he considered a 3 man housekeeping force there keeping it open. I do not think we should have a comment on this.

Z: It is a little hard not to comment when a White House source commented last year on it. That brings the White House into it.

K: Ron, the term keeping it open has about 1,000 meanings. I think it is a mistake for us to get into individual base closings. But you should follow Secretary Packard's advice on this but above all even if he gives you a good answer just keep us out of it. ~~WK~~

Z: But if the White House said . . .

K: We didn't say this. Chotiner shot off his mouth about it.

Z: The President made this promise in the campaign and said it will be kept open.

K: Then we should say it will be kept open and details of it will be worked out with Defense. Try to keep us as decoupled with it as possible. You are coming with me to LA?

Z: Details will be worked out with Defense. I will try to work out this cobweb. We leave at 4:30 - don't we.

K: Yes.

By NARA, Date 5/26

Telecon
Dean Rusk

1/7/71 11:55 a.m.

R: I have a small suggestion. I understand you and Bill Rogers are talking to the Americans for Winning the Peace group on the 11th. Let me pass on a thought. I have heard echoes from certain of these conferences complaining about relative lack of candor and fresh information, different from what's in the press. Some of the Georgians who will be at the meeting are bright people and I would like to encourage the people at the meeting to be as candid as possible. It's a small point, but I think it important.

K: It's a good suggestion -- frankly I haven't focused on what I'm going to say. I never speak where the press is present so that in itself will free me to be frank. I think when ad Administration officials speaks it should be as non-banal as possible. But you think the Georgians coming are good?

R: Yes, first class. I'll be meeting with some of them a few days later. I don't know if you have in mind who they are. They are people like Livingston Merchant, Mary Lord, Al Gruenther. It's a friendly group.

K: I knew that. What I wasn't sure about was whether it was a slightly right-wing group.

R: It's not right-wing, but if I had any criticism I'd say the average age of the members is too old; they don't have very many young people. But you can't do anything about that.

K: Do you ever come to Washington?

R: I was there just before Christmas and may come next month.

K: I'd consider it's privilege to have lunch with you.

R: I'll call when I am there.

K: Will you without a specific invitation ?

R: Yes.

K: Good.

By. NARA, Date 5/26

Telecon
Ambassador Dobrynin
1/7/71 12:05 p.m.

D: I have just received a telegram from Moscow and they have asked me rather urgently to come to Moscow for consultations -- tomorrow or the day after. I'm checking now on what kind of planes can go. In this case [there will be a meeting on Monday].

K: I just spent three hours with the President.

D: Maybe you could give me it in writing.

K: I can't discuss it on a call.

D: Maybe the points the same way as I gave them to you, through Mr. Young I could get them.

K: Can you put it off as late as Saturday? I am coming east tomorrow.

D: Tomorrow evening?

K: Yes, but I'm doing something in the evening which I cannot change. But I could see you first thing on Saturday morning.

D: I have to check on planes. My impression is there are none on Saturday.

K: When will you be back?

D: I don't know -- no specifics. Couldn't you just give ideas in this kind of paper?

K: It's not technically very easy from here. By the time I got it written . . .

D: I believe it very important.

K: I believe it important too and I have a number of very concrete propositions to make to you.

D: Tomorrow not possible?

K: No.

D: American plane leaves at 7:00 from New York. Latest I could leave maybe 4:00 from Washington.

Telecon
Ambassador Dobrynin

1/7/71 12:05 p. m. page 3

By. NARA, Date 5/26

D: Around 10:00 this time.

K: I will leave my house at 10:30 your time.

D: By then I will know.

K: Okay, you call me any time from 9:30 Washington time on.

D: All right. I will call you tomorrow morning.

K: And my own judgment is that this could be one of the more important conversations we have had.

By. NARA, Date 5/26

Telecon
Herb Kaplow
1/7/71 2:10 p.m.

K: I read your questions and they seem all right except one about when do the talks resume. They are going on all the time.

Kaplow: Aren't they in recess or something now?

K: No. I'd give you the ______ on that. I don't want to mislead you. We're talking about a nuance.

Kaplow: I have said it may be changing slightly. One thing: you did mention all the flap over the prisoners.

K: They feel at least that there is a prisoner problem. Where They are trying to release something every . . . they haven't so far given us anything new.

Kaplow: They want haven't given anything and have propagandized on it and you wonder if there's more to it.

K: That's right.

Kaplow: As I recall you said the South Vietnamese are getting stronger and these people may be coming around to make a deal now rather than later.

K: That makes some sense.

By. NARA, Date 5/26

Peter Flanigan/Mr. Kissinger (not verbatim)

January 7, 1971 2:25 p.m.

jlj

F: You must be glad to be out there - going out to lunches and whatever it is you do out there. Henry, on our Japanese thing, I believe as I told you that we are going to be in a position to put to the Japanese a proposition that they can accept or reject. The Prime Minister is reported to have said that he is going to solve this thing.

K: That's a new position.

F: I am going to be meeting Saturday with some businessmen. I have to meet with them they are friends of the President. Got a couple of things ... use powers there under unilateral if need be ... to use powers strigently. This action would be considerably less stringent than that under the trade bill. What I think we would do is the following. Incidentally, at some point I think I should call the Ambassador up and ask him to come by and have a drink with me on Sunday and say that we want to solve the problem and give him the proposition and would like it solved in this manner and he could mull it over a bit. If he liked that idea then it could be accepted. I saw him just before New Years and he seemed receptive to that type of approach. It is better than no solution. ... possibility of legislation. ... if they do not like that they do not have to go ahead with that.

K: I have come to the view that these whole negotiations are a mistake at this point. I guess one more round will not hurt.

F: This could not get public so would not hurt us.

K: Of course, I could put the proposition to my guy but I don't really have the time.

F: I don't think that is a good idea Henry. My concerns are two fold. You are not here and I am not there. Some complication and I want ...

K: I do not understand it well enough -

F: This way they can say that they do not like it or if they do want to do it this way... I talked to George about this -

K: You are all a bunch of free traders and are not concerned with our foreign policy.

F: You've got it backwards. This would make them happy - what they want and then our relations with them would be good.

NARA, Dato 5/26

-2-

K: My basic concern is our overall foreign policy.

F: My concern is to get the President reelected. . . President might not be able to go along with the Trade Bill. This would be a solution more acceptable than the trade bill. We could have the same trade restrictions but less stringent. This way they have to consult but if they do not agree they do not have to. The President is going to sign the bill. President has said he is for textile quotas no matter how.

K: I am not sold on the idea that we are . . . shifting responsibility from us to them.

F: I think it is just a matter of semantics. . . . President has discretion under the bill and if he does not use it he is accused . . .

K: You have this choice and this is the . . . every time we have operated that way in my area it has been a disaster. However, I have no strong view. I got dragged in through the back door on this thing. If I felt strongly I would take it to the President.

F: You got in through the back door. I got in through you. I am just worried about the overall interest of the Administration. Have you been reading the cables from Japan?

K: No

F: Sato seems determined to settle it. Second question: Bob Anderson, former Treasury (?) and now Ambassador to Panama. negotiations. He worked with Jack Irwin and Irwin seems to like him a lot. The President wants to place Ryme (phonetic?) and Marrott (phonetic ?) - what about taking Anderson's place?

K: I thought the President has approved a few months ago to keep Anderson in that spot.

F: I went to Haldeman to find out what the background on it was and he said he had talked with you.

K: I think I have a piece of paper approving Anderson.

F: I have a November 21st memorandum (reading)

K: That did not come from me.

F: Could you check on it.

K: I do not have the files on it. Check it with Haig. I have no feeling on this. Anderson is a pain in the neck. Everything he has touched he has turned into personal advantage.

By. NARA, Dale 5/26

Telecon
Elliott Richardson
1/7/71 2:54 p. m.

K: I understand you are coming out.

R: Oh. I'm coming out to speak in Los Angeles on Saturday but I didn't know . . .

K: I understand you are meeting with the Los Angeles Times tomorrow and was wondering how long you were staying in the area; thought we might be able to get together.

R: No, I'm coming right back. I have to be here for two dedications on Saturday. Are you returning my call?

K: No but I am anxious to have a round-up with you on some foreign policy problems as soon as I get back that we can both make it.

R: I meant to put a call in to you but it may have been too early this morning. Do you have a minute?

K: Sure.

R: It came to me a week or so ago that we might be able to talk Larry Lynn into coming in as Assistant Secretary for Planning and Evaluation. Thought I ought to call you, a, on general principles and b, to ask how you thought he would be in that role. I have Lou Butler in it now; I don't know if you know him.

K: The only thing I would regret about that is he isn't coming back to me.

R: I understand that and that is a problem, but we would be able to offer him an Assistant Secretary's job.

K: I say this in praise of him, not to warn you off. I think he's an outstandingly fine human being and knowledgeable and someone who could work superbly with you. I have never had a better man work for me.

R: I thought you thought that.

K: And he's been loyal. He hasn't taken cheap shots as others have that have left. Nor did he leave for that reason. He would have my enthusiastic support.

R: That's what I thought. Thank you Henry.

By. NARA, Dato 5/26

Telecon

Larry Lynn

1/7/71 3:00 p.m.

L: Your President did a nice job the other night.

K: I'm glad you think that.

L: I really do.

K: I think he did fine. While I'm out in San Clemente I wanted to find out whether you had come to any conclusions about what we talked about.

L: No I haven't. I have very little doubt about wanting to get away from here, which is an embarrassing thing to confess.

K: No, I always like to have my judgments confirmed.

L: You were right. But you've got to experience it.

K: It was the right thing to do.

L: It let me and my wife learn some lessons.

K: That's understandable.

L: But as far as what we discussed, I haven't made a final decision. I want to know whether I want to stay doing that sort of thing or get in on the domestic side, something entirely different. I have no specific offers.

K: You understood my proposition -- I would make you Deputy Assistant if you came back with overall supervision of all activities, planning activities.

L: That's very attractive.

K: As far as I can see that would make you in charge of all planning in the entire government because as far as I know there are no other such operations in the government.

L: Jane and I talked about it at length. It's terribly attractive. We've cicked around the idea of something like HEW or the environment.

K: I don't want to talk against anybody else. But environment I wouldn't consider.

L: Why not?

K: It's not high-level enough. My opinion is that if you get into the

By. NARA, Dato 5/26

Telecon
Larry Lynn

1/7/21 3:00 p.m. page 3

time to think about it?

K: Yes. What? Two weeks or three? If you tell me you want to
come in June fine; April is that much better.

L: I would have to think about that. The kids are in school here.

K: Oh then you should stay till June.

L: The next time I come back will be in a week or two.

K: Let's talk about it then. I can manage without you. I need you
for something that isn't being done now. I'm not as depperate now
as when you left. But you could give us some real forward thrust and
enable us to keep our heads above water. And I would undertake to get
you a senior position in the Administration if it is re-elected which I
think is inevitable.

L: That adds to the attractiveness of it all. Let me mull it over again.

By. NARA, Dato 5/26

TELCON
Secretary Irwin
Mr. Kissinger
5:30 pm, 1-8-71

I: Where do I find you?

K: Back here. I just arrived.

I: Henry, I have a couple of things but the principal item is the thing with the Soviets vis-a-vis the bombing and the action by the Jewish people against the Soviet league. I wanted to tell you what we are moving to do. First, I have the group here to see what can be done legally, legislatively, information-wise, etc. More specifically, we have made a proposal to Justice to see if we can seek an injunction on the basis of harming U.S. relations with the Soviet Union and we think the Justice Department will be willing to do this although the decision has not yet been made. I have asked our legal people to talk to the legal people at the White House and I wanted to tell you what we had done and touch base with you.

K: That sounds good.

I: I think it is a serious situation all around and I want to take all the action we can. My own feeling on it is that if we are moving in this way to try to prevent acts of violence, acts that will create problems, that we will have the support of the Jewish Community and there has been a letter from Paul Weiss and they wrote, in effect, a letter of support to Charlie Yost. That is the situation to date and I just wanted to let you know.

K: I think it is essential Jack.

I: We are coming up with a paper.

K: Jack, I have talked to the President about Micronesia position and he would like Gullion to be the man. He is an Ambassador. He had some income tax problem but we would like to re-habilitate that. Would you move on that?

I: I think we cannot. This originates outside of State. Russell in Interior has asked that we hold off until we have a meeting. I think they are a little sensitive about having an Ambassador to negotiate with people who are not a foreign country. I

By NARA, Dato 5/26

-2-

think if he could be called something other than Ambassador
it would be good.

K: Like what?

I: Perhaps Special Representative of the President. Although I
had the rank of Ambassador when I was in Panama, my title
was special representative. You go down with that title, they
call you Ambassador and you have the same authority.

K: I will get you a paper on it.

I: Another couple of things that I am not too clear on. I heard
that Mr. Klein might be making a statement on the Cooper-
Church amendment to clarify articles that were appearing.

K: Inconceivable.

I: I think it would be unwise but if it were to be done it should be
done in a sensitive vein. It would be very counter-productive
if we began talking about it. Congress might take offense.

K: I am not aware that he is doing it. I will check it. KKKK

I: If you could be very careful of what he says and preferably have
him not say anything. Another item Henry. On November 14
I signed a memorandum from the Under Secretaries Committee
to the President on trade affairs pointing out that under the
present guidelines, whatever they may be, the Department of
Commerce is only interested in hard sell commercial negotiations.
The USIA budget cuts have been such that they are very limited
in international affairs and can only concentrate on Eastern
Europe. That leaves quite an area where there is no money
for U.S. participation. The Committee, after review, re-
commended $1.5 million annually to go for these political trade
affairs. I had word that it got to George Shultz's desk and was
going in to the President with a negative memorandum from
Shultz. It is a small amount of money but can make a lot of
political capital.

K: Let me check into it.

I: I telephoned Dobrynin to tell him how distressed I was about the
incident last night. He accepted that but said his Government

By. NARA, Dalo 5/26

TELECON

Gerard Smith/Mr. Kissinger

10:40 a.m., January 11, 1971

S: I believe these ABM stories on Saturday have been inspired. Would you have any objection if I, as the concerned individual, ask the Attorney General to do an investigation?

K: What were those two stories?

S: The one by Hedrick Smith in the NY Times and the one by Chalmers Roberts in the Post.

K: You can go ahead and do that.

Mr. Kissinger/Gerard Smith

10:46 a.m., January 11, 1971

K: I am never clear in these cryptic phone calls -- if you think the White House did anything with regard to these stories, write a letter directly to the President.

S: I was just making sure the White House did not authorize this.

K: The White House had nothing to do with it. We are as outraged as you. It's extremely damaging from every point of view -- yours, the ABM, etc.

S: I think the Soviet Embassy put this out.

K: I hadn't thought who put it out, but we had absolutely nothing to do with it.

lds

By. NARA, Date 5/26

TELECON

Gerard Smith/Mr. Kissinger

10:40 a.m., January 11, 1971

Mr. Kissinger/Gerard Smith

10:46 a.m., January 11, 1971

lds

TELCONE (TAPE)

Mr. Kissinger/Ambassador Freeman

January 11, 1971

F: Henry.

K: John, I wanted to get you on the phone and I thought I was talking to the operator.

F: That's alright.

K: John, I have one business problem on your last day she has to do with the overwhelming desire of the State Department to disassociate itself from your South African policy.

F: Ah --

K: And there was a London Times article saying that we had acquiesced in it and that there's a deal between us and the Prime Minister, that we would support you. Now the State Department -- I'm being -- this is of course ......

F: I quite understand.

K: Wanted to put out the statement strongly disassociating itself from that and I have stopped it but I won't be able to stop it every day and therefore I think it is extremely important that no more such articles ......

F: I entirely agree.

K: Appear. And Secondly, there is a British Minister, I don't know who he is who is coming in to see Newsom tomorrow.

F: I'm not quite clear who that is -- nevermind I can find out.

K: Well, it isn't important, I just want you to know that I told Newsom he could express whatever he wanted to this gentleman privately.

F: Yes.

K: But that there would be no public statements during the Commonwealth Conference.

F: Well, this of course is from our point of view of the utmost importance. And my understanding of what has been said to our people by the President and Rogers is that you do not in any way associate yourself with our policy but that you will do everything you can to avoid causing us embarrassment.

MJD F.O. 12958
Authentic
By NARA Date 6/1/04
DECLASSIFIED

TELCONE (TAPE)

Mr. Kissinger/Amb. Freeman

January 11, 1971

K: That's exactly correct and the President put it in the strongest terms.

F: Yes, well, this is the line -- I haven't seen the London Times piece and I'll -- you know how difficult it is to do this but we will try and see that we do everything we can to stop these things from happening.

K: And the President even went a little further with the Prime Minister by promising to restrain our more impetuous ....

F: I wasn't going to quote that back to you but I do know that, yes. Well, thanks very much for telling me ....

K: If you -- I will keep it on our end if you can avoid additional stimulus.

F: I see exactly the point and I'll do everything I can.

K: Wonderful, John.

F: Thanks very much, Henry.

K: See you tonight, bye.

F: Goodbye.

MJD F.O. 12958
DECLASSIFIED
Authorized
By NARA Date 6/9/19

TELCONE (TAPE)

Mr. Kissinger/Under Secretary Irwin

January 11, 1971

K: Hello, Jack.
Yeah.

K: How are you?
Good, sir.

K: Jack, I just wanted to call you briefly, I am going to another one of
these interminable Freeman farewells.

The which ones?

K: Freeman, the Ambassador, is leaving.
Oh.

K: About that African cable, the situation is as follows: The President
promised Heath when they were at Camp David that he would do nothing
to embarass him, especially not during the Commonwealth Conference
and this would seem to me to be a gratuitous thing. I mean no one
asked our opinion and we don't have to comment on every newspaper
article that exists -- that is written.

Well, part of -- of course one of the reasons is we wanted to be sure
we talked to you is that we didn't really know -- we don't know what
transpired in the conversation between ......

K: Well, I'm going to get -- the reason frankly is that I've literally not
had the time to type it up yet.

My concern is not of course carrying out what the Presiden said
because I agree we shouldn't do anything to upset the British -- to make
it even more difficult for them. On the other hand I think they very
likely will try to tie an interest in the Indian Ocean into effect our
approving their actions in South Africa.

K: But they haven't done that yet, have they?

I wouldn't be at all surprised if that report in the Times is a deliberate
leak. Seems to me -- I don't know when we were sitting in our
conversations, Lord Hume really partly as speculation and partly
as question and part philosophy, I hardly had the time to characterize
just what he was doing, but he commented on well, we sometimes think
that we should deal with the powers that matter in Africa, the powers
that can make a contribution ......

MJD F.O. 12958
DECLASSIFIED
Authorized
By NARA Date 6/9/04

TELCON (TAPE)

Mr. Kissinger/

January 11, 1971

K: That's a different issue and we don't have to settle that.

I know but I think it all goes into ....

K: The question now though is do we -- you send out a cable like that and with all the backchanneling that is going on, you know damn well somebody's going to -- it will wind up as an attack on the British policy in South Africa. I mean that's going to be the practical result, a clear unambiguous disassociation. Nothing else will -- which is quite gratuitous -- which will appear gratuitous.

Yeah.

K: You know that's what Newsom (sp?) wants.

Well, I think certainly that's what he thinks. Well, it's alright with me not to, Henry.

K: I had no objection to our saying there is -- that we are planning to maintain the embargo but I would not get into the inclination question unless we absolutely have to.

You think we should wait for a specific request for incidents.

K: That's right. You know if any official British has said that, then of course we should react.

Yeah.

K: Or at least I would wait for another news story.

Okay. Well, now another point -- question is, a Minister and I'm not sure just which one it is, is coming in tomorrow to talk to Newsom.

K: Oh, an African one?

No, no, a Britisher. And this type thing may well come up.

K: But I have no objection to Newsom telling him as long as it isn't leaked to the press.

I've told Newsom to say two things really, to emphasize again that we don't want to do anything that will embarass the British Government and point to the fact that we haven't. On the other hand, we would appreciate their not tying us in indirectly or directly to their South African policy to embarass us.

DECLASSIFIED

MWO E0 12958

Authority

By NARA Date 6/10/71

TELCONE (TAPE)

Mr. Kissinger/

January 11, 1971

K: I think that is absolutely correct. And I think not only do I have no objection, I strongly recommend it.

Yeah. Well, that was the way I felt. And I must sound a little suspicious as fond as I am of all the Britishers.

K: No, they are quite capable of it.

They are trying to involve us and at some point, if not now, by their indirection we've ....

K: Why don't I have a word with Freeman also.

Okay.

K: And tell them to be particularly careful.

Then send back the cable to me, Henry, and I will -- we will hold it unless we come back to you.

K: Okay.

For the discussion.

K: When is Bill coming back?

I'll talk again to Newsom and see what -- if there have been any other incidents.

K: But that's the gentlemen.

And have we been requested for guidance specifically anywhere.

K: Good. When is Bill coming back, tomorrow?

Yeah, he'll be back late tomorrow.

K: Good, okay.

Henry, there's one other thing that I -- you may well be aware of -- that I think is coming more and more to a question -- this is the whole oil problem in the Middle East and its effect, now our oil policy but what's happening ....

DECLASSIFIED
MAY 10 1958
Author:
By NARA Date 6/10/58