Vera Shanti Noyes writes:  >really?  you may be right, but i'd like proof.  as far as i know (and  "We however, shall be innocent of this sin, and will pray with earnest entreaty and supplication that the Creator of all may keep unharmed the numbers of His elect."     -St. Clement, Bishop of Rome, Letter to the Corinthians, 59.2, (c. 90 AD)  "Ignatius also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia, which is worthy of all felicitation, blessed as it is with greatness by the fullness of God the Father, predestined from all eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen in true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God..."     -St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, Letter to the Ephesians, Address, (c 110 AD)  "We say therefore, that in substance, in concept, in orgin and in eminece, the ancient and Catholic Church is alone, gathering as it does into the unity of the one faith which results from the familiar covenants .... those already chosen, those predestined by God who knew before the foundation of the world that they would be just."     -St. Clement, Patriarch and Archbishop of Alexandria, Miscellanies, 7.17.107.3, (c 205 AD)  Of course the doctrine was explained more fully later on by Sts. Augustine, Aquinas, etc., but the seeds were ther from the beginning.  >this is really confusing to me, especially since i still believe that >christ jesus died for ALL of us.  preknowledge of obstinacy seems >like an awfully convoluted way to account for a couple of verses.  but  I think you are reading it wrong.  I say those who are not saved are not saved on account of their own sins.  It is not because God did not give them sufficient grace, for He does do so, in His desire that all men might be saved.  However, as only some are saved - and those who are saved are saved by the grace of God, "not by works, lest any man should boast" - the others are damned because of their obstinacy in refusing to heed the call of God.  They are damned by their own free will and chosing, a choice forseen by God in His causing them to be not predestined, but reprobated instead.  >so God uses grace like margarine: he only spreads it where it's needed >and not where it isn't?  and so there are the saved and the not-saved, >and nothing in between.  hmmmm.  Certainly God does not distribute grace evenly.  If He did, no one could have their heart hardened (or rather, harden their heart, thus causing God to withdraw His grace).  But, you are correct - the world is divided into those who God knows to be saved, and those God knows to be on the road to perdition.  THe key is that God knows it and we do not.  Thus, no one can boast in complete assurance that they are one of the elect and predestined.  But no one who is a Christian in good standin should doubt their salvation either (that shows a lack of trust in God).  >be punished after we die.  you're saying what we get after we die has >a direct bearing on how we live now?  strange....  You must admit it is possible.  Anyway, why would you want something in the hear and know, when you can recieve 100 fold in heaven?  Better to lay up your treasure in heaven is what Jesus said. This is not to condemn the rich, but simply to point out that those who are rich are frequently very evil or immoral, so God must give them their blessing know, as they have chosen.  Remeber, Jesus promised tribulation in this world, and hatred of others because we are Christians.  He did not promise heaven on earth.  He promised heaven.  >so sin is either punished now or later -- and not both?  what if it's > sort of half-punished?  are there any grey areas in this doctrine?  Not really.  Unless you do penance here on earth, you will have to do it in Purgatory, as Paul pointed out (1 Corinthians 3.15).  Those with poorer works, though still done with good intentions, will only be saved through fire (the damned will of course go into fire immeadiately, for whatever good they did was not for God but for self (dead works)).  Of course, the Church gives indulgences, has Confession, and Annointing of the Sick to remove sin and the the vestiges of sin, so there is really little excuse for ending up in Purgatory - it is a last hope for the somewhat lazy and careless as I said above in referring to Paul.  And no comments were taken as flames.  You are one of the more polite people I have talked to over the net.  Andy Byler