From Bit.listserv.christia  Zane writes...   From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahan) >Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia Subject: Christianity in Crisis Date: Wed May 12 14:43:19 1993   "Frank, first of all, thanks for all of the great Scripture verses.  It was a pleasure to read them."   MY REPLY... You are welcome, Zane.   Zane... "I am sure nothing that I will say will change your mind about it... but I would like to ask you if the book in question really does anything for you. I mean, were you all caught up in the word/faith thing, but now that you have read the book you've been rescued from all of the error and pain that will result in your Christian life?"   MY REPLY... (1) When I first became a Christian, I entered into the Word/Faith     movement.  It was easy.  I wasn't grounded in the Word of God and sound     doctrine.  When I visited Christian book stores, the cheapest books I     could find to buy were the .50 and $1.00 books by Hagin and others.     Consequently, I began receiving Hagin's monthly magazine (and they     still send it to me), and also Copeland's (also, still sent to me).     It wasn't until I read a booklet by Jimmy Swaggart called _Hyper Faith:     The New Gnosticism_ that I began to realize the teachings I were     partaking of were error.  I started reading the Bible more and studying     more.  Sure enough, Jimmy was right in many points.  As part of my     experience, I am alerting Christians, particularly new Christians, that     these teachings are heretical and they need to do as the Bereans did in     Acts 17:11 - check these teachings out with Scripture!   (2) My brother in law was involved in a Word/Faith "cult" in my area - it's     leader is real good friends with Benny Hinn.  Rather then going into     much detail about this, suffice it to say he was deceived, mistreated, and     has now fallen into atheism.  I'm still praying for him (Phil. 1:6).   (3) The assistant pastor at the church I teach adult Sunday School in has been     a `follower' of Copeland for 15 years.  He has thousands of tapes by the     Faith teachers.  In the class recently, I quoted several of the teachers'     heretical statements to his surprise.  Since then, I've been able to talk     to him at length about these issues.   (4) The leader of the Women's Group at my church is a Benny Hinn `fan'.     Recently, I found that she has been lending _Good Morning, Holy Spirit_ to     women in the church.  That prompted my quotes in Sunday School, as well as     my lending CIC to people in the church.   I'm well aware of the abuses and heresies perpetrated in this movement and have an urgency in my heart and life to warn people about the heresies. What heresies?     A. Jesus became sin - took on the very nature of the devil, and became         one with him.     B. Jesus' death on the cross wasn't enough to atone.     C. Jesus was dragged to hell after His death, was beat and abused by         Satan and demons, thus finishing our atonement.  Satan was ruling         over Him there.     D. Jesus was `born-again' in hell.     E. Jesus died spiritually, lost His divinity, and reassumed it after         the resurrection.     F. We are gods.   These are heresies.  Documentation will be provided re: these teachings upon request.   Zane... "Or what does it do for you?  Is it preventing you from going out and joining up with the word/faith movement which you'd been contemplating joining for so long, but now that you've read the book, you've been saved from all of that?"   MY REPLY... It wasn't _Christianity In Crisis_ that helped me; it was a booklet by Swaggart that I mentioned above.  But CIC is MUCH, MUCH better - tremendous documentation and insights.   Zane... "I don't have a nice Scriptural answer for why I believe it is at best un- profitable for Christians to engage in this type of activity - heresy hunting."   MY REPLY... Why do you call it "heresy hunting"?  "Hunting" implies it isn't readily accessible or available.  This movement is the fastest growing movement in Christendom.  Hagin has sold over 40 million books and booklets.  Hinn has sold more books in the last couple of years than Swindoll and Dobson combined.  Fred Price has the largest church in terms of seating capacity in the USA.  Doesn't sound like much "hunting" is needed.   It is Scriptural to expose doctrinal error.  I gave some verses to you before. More can be given.  Most of the epistles were written due to error (doctrinal, practical) in the churches.  The early church had numerous councils to expose error and heresy.  It's not a new thing.  Remember Luther?   Zane... "I would like to point out though, that historically those who hunt heretics often end up causing a bigger mess than the heretics... but this is my un- documented opinion."   MY REPLY... (1) If you can provide documentation, it would be appreciated. (2) Read Ephesians 4:11-16, esp. vss. 13 and 14 and tell me what causes     disunity and immaturity in the body.   EPH 4:13-14 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting....   Disunity, contrary to popular opinion, isn't caused by exposing error; it's caused by error.   Zane... "There are many who probably give no place for seeing the Scriptures as documenting a Spiritual development or growth in its writers - but I would suggest that the fiery Paul of the letter to the Galatians mellows and matures into the one who loses all for the sake of Love in the End."   MY REPLY... Most scholars believe Paul wrote 2 Timothy last.  Let's examine his admonitions to Tim to ascertain how mellow he had become...   2TI 1:13-15 Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. That good thing which was committed to you, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us. This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.   2TI 2:15-18 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.   2TI 2:24-26 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.   2TI 3:6-9 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.   2TI 3:12-17 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.   2TI 4:2-5 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.   2TI 4:14-15 Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm. May the Lord repay him according to his works. You also must beware of him, for he has greatly resisted our words.   Zane... "The picture I have of Paul is not of one who goes out of his way to destroy the ministry of wolves... but of one who teaches the sheep, with many tears, the necessity of absolutely not allowing themselves to be transformed into wolves to protect themselves."   MY REPLY... ACT 20:26-31 "Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. "For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. "Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. "For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. "Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. "Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.   Zane... "For all the warning Paul does, it is of note that he never once drops a name of a wolf....  - but I will admit he cries in his beard at the end over those who have abandoned him - everyone in Asia wasn't it ?"   MY REPLY... Paul mentioned names...   1TI 1:18-20 This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.   2TI 1:15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.   2TI 2:16-18 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.   2TI 4:10 for Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world, and has departed for Thessalonica--Crescens for Galatia, Titus for Dalmatia.   2TI 4:14-15 Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm. May the Lord repay him according to his works. You also must beware of him, for he has greatly resisted our words.   So did John...   3JO 1:9-10 I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, does not receive us. Therefore, if I come, I will call to mind his deeds which he does, prating against us with malicious words. And not content with that, he himself does not receive the brethren, and forbids those who wish to, putting them out of the church.   Jesus also singled out teachings and doctrines...   REV 2:14-16 "But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. "Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 'Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.   REV 2:20-23 "Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. "And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. "Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. "I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.   Zane... "I question too, the purposes of those who write books and build ministries on the faults - deliberate or otherwise - of others.  Maybe if they would wander around in the desert eating locust and honey, or barely cakes...with no worldly goods at stake, money to be made, or no reputations to maintain... I would question their motives - conscious or otherwise - less."   MY REPLY... I won't comment on this because it deals with the intangible motives of others. But even if they had bad motives, remember what Paul said...   PHI 1:15-18 Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from good will: The former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice.   Zane... "If we want to be true to the admonitions of Scripture - many of which you list - about protecting ourselves and the flock from wolves and winds of doctrines, I suggest we start by allowing the wolf-program in our own noetic pasture to be nailed to the Cross."   MY REPLY... Please explain.   Zane... "Secondly, I suggest any heresy hunting be restricted to our own fellowships - which in the strict Scriptural sense is the local city-church."   MY REPLY... If heresy was not being propagated over the mass media, then it may not be needed to go mass media with the exposure.  Unfortunately, heresy is being taught not just in Copeland's church or Hagin's or Hinn's or Price's, but all over the radio, in print, etc.  No pastor or church leader knows what materials the sheep are feeding on outside the church.  It's imperative that leadership be made aware of this, and CIC does just that.   Also, let's examine a passage of Scripture... * EPH 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, * EPH 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,   These ministry gifts that the Lord installs in the church are not just for one individual church, but for "the body of Christ". Paul was an apostle - he traveled all over distilling his message.  He was also a teacher - 1CO 4:17 For this reason I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church. 1CO 7:17 But as God has distributed to each one, as the Lord has called each one, so let him walk. And so I ordain in all the churches.   Also - 1CO 12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.   * EPH 4:13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;   Notice that the "Five-Fold" ministries are going to be around "till" the church is in "unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God to a perfect man".  This, I believe will not occur fully until the Lord Jesus returns (see 1Cor. 13:9-12).  But God wants the body to continue on maturing.  What hinders maturity and unity of the body?   * EPH 4:14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,   It's clear that false doctrine, integrated into the church "by the trickery of men" causes (1) disunity [the thing we are striving for] and (2) spiritual immaturity - the church continues in spiritual childhood when Christians are "tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine".   The "Five -Fold" ministry, of which there does not appear to be clear Scriptural denominational boundaries ("pastors" appear responsible for their individual flock), is to deal with these doctrines (when necessary) in their struggle to equip the body.   All believers are called to do this to a degree... JUD 1:3-4 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.   Zane... "If you'll notice, in Scripture the heresy hunters that went from Church to Church and area to area, were the "bad guys" and they went after the "good guy" namely Paul - who they considered to be the arch heretic."   MY REPLY... They were themselves heretics trying to discredit Paul who was preaching contrary to what they taught!   Zane... "Let's face it, the wolves are here for a reason.  And we are here for the Reason.  And let's hope the wolves become sheep, and the sheep, lambs."   MY REPLY... Yes! 2TI 2:24-26 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all,                                                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  ~~ God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.   AMEN!   Frank