NOTE - local tx groups trimmed out of Newsgroups: line  In article <1r23a3$28a@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> D.Nash@utexas.edu (Donald L. Nash) writes: < <In article <1r208f$bp2@transfer.stratus.com>, cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. <Tavares) writes: <>No, you were right the first time.  Law enforcement agencies should keep <>HIS opinions in mind before breaking into or assaulting ANYBODY'S house. < <OK, let me correct my unfortunate choice of words:  I just hope that the <law enforcement agencies keep your attitude in mind the next time your <wife is gang-raped by a bunch of juvenile, drug-dealing thugs while she <was jogging in the park.  No, strike that... (etc.) < <>The BATF came out with horse trailers, 100 men, ninja uniforms, machine  <>guns, and stun grenades, and used them before Koresh could even look  <>at the warrant.  Koresh fought back, and people died. < <The key part of this sentense is "Koresh fought back."  This was his big <mistake.  When the police decide to exert their authority over you, you <don't fight back unless you want people to get hurt.  You cease all <resistance and signal your submission to their authority.  The cops  They are the BOSS.  You are the SUBJECT.  The concept of defense against illegal action under color of law is kaput.  No longer is it government of the people by the people, its government of the people by the biggest guns.  The idea of 'sorting it out in court later' is fine, but one has to GET TO COURT IN ONE PIECE to do that.  Korash had good reason to think that he was not going to get that chance.  (see below).  <aren't in it to beat up and kill people, in spite of the actions of a <few bad apples.  If you quit resisting, they quit hitting.  Perhaps the <BATF did over react to the threat posed by Koresh.  Perhaps they did use <too much force.  OK, fine.  I'm willing to concede to that point if <sufficient proof is produced (and I admit that there is some evidence to <indicate this).  However, resisting the BATF is the worst thing Koresh <could have done.  If they hadn't resisted, there is a good chance that <no one would have been hurt.  Remeber, they were using stun grenades, <not anti-personnel grenades.  If the BDs were not in violation of any  Rember, Korash didn't get to sort this all out, serenely typing at his keyboard.  He heard SOME KIND OF EXPLOSIVES go off, he saw he was being ATTACKED with no overt action from him (yet).  He could no more say 'oh, its ok, its only stun grenades' anymore than I could.  He slammed the door at that point and proceeded to repel the attackers.  He felt in genuine fear of his life - I know I would be in fear of MY life at that point.  Have you ever been shot at?  How clear and logically could you think, under that pressure, when you MIGHT have ALL OF 1 or 2 SECONDS to evaluate what is going on?  And, it would not be the first time that 'law enforcements' intended to bring in their suspect horizontally.  For all we know, he was informed by someone saying something like "Hey, guy, the BATF is coming like gangbusters, and they mean to WASTE you..."  According to the latest news, the released warrant (so we are told) said the reason for this WW III raid was that Korash's group had spent around $200,000.00 on firearms and related stuff (over an undetermined period). Now, even assuming that the figure isn't calculated like the Feds do a drug siezure, for 90 people, that isn't really all that much (you priced decent guns lately?).  Hell, I can think of a person right now that probably has that much for ONE INDIVIDUAL, mostly machineguns!!!  Sure, he is an avid collector, but unless a new law has been passed, it is NOT illegal, nor an indication of anything illegal, to have a lot of guns.  Also note that the warrant had NOTHING TO SAY ABOUT MACHINE GUNS.  So, what is the justification of this cowboy raid, other than a romp gone bad for some anti-gun media hype, to support Clinton's push for disarming the unconnected citizen of any and all effective defensive weapons? This administration has only one thing in mind.  CONTROL.  PEOPLE CONTROL. Whether it is gun control, Clinton Cripple Chip, National smart ID cards, it all boils down to PEOPLE CONTROL.  Can you say 1984, only 10 years late? I knew you could...  :-)  <laws, they would have been released as they had been before.  If this <had happened and it turned out that the BATF had used too much force, <then the BDs would have grounds for a law suit and for federal charges <of civil rights violations (Sounds a lot like LA, huh?  Don't take that <wrong, I'm not commenting one way or the other about the Rodney King <case).  But that's not what they wanted.  They got tipped off that the <BATF was on the way in, and rather than adopting a non-violent, <non-threatening posture to greet the BATF, they decided to fight.  And BATF knew the BDs were expecting them (via 60 minutes report).  But they decided they were so big, so bad, they would have a cakewalk at the BDs expense, for a nice media show anyway.  But it all turned to shit, and the FBI taking over to manage things, we see it all turned to shit, too.  Clinton says 'I am taking full responsibility'...  BAH. Responsibility means to take the repercussions if it goes wrong.  Bet you NOBODY pays any serious repercussions.  'Responsibility' only has meaning as media PR, or as a means to corner the average Joe Schmoe. Figure it out... Clinton, Reno, the FBI and BATF, will all be IMMUNE. Can you say WHITEWASH?  <I've said enough of this issue.  I'm probably not going to convince any <of you folks and you're certainly not going to convince me.  I've got <work to do. < <				++Don  Be VERY afraid of our government.  In the land of the free... And if you decide all this is acceptable, get even MORE afraid... especially when it is YOU they decide, for some reason, they dislike... When they no longer feel the need to confine their cowboy tactics to 'kooks', or 'wierdos'...