brian@lpl.arizona.edu (Brian Ceccarelli 602/621-9615) writes: >Brian Kendig writes: > >>If you can explain to me why the death of Jesus was a *good* thing, >>then I would be very glad to hear it, and you might even convert me. >>Be warned, however, that I've heard all the most common arguments >>before, and they just don't convince me. > >Ask Jesus himself.  He himself said why in John 12:23-32.  It >isn't a mystery to anyone and there certainly is no need for >a persuasive argument.   Read Jesus's own reply to your >question.  John 12:24-26: "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls onto the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain.   "He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.   "If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also.  If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor."  Why would I want an eternal life if I hate this one?  If we were created by a deity, why would that deity not wish us to enjoy what he has given us?  Why would I want to live forever?  The challenge in my life is that I will die, and that I must give my life the meaning I wish it to have before that happens.  My time is here and will someday pass; I will be content to live on in the memories of my friends, and once they too are dead, then I will no longer have any reason to exist.  In short: even if your deity *does* exist, that doesn't automatically mean that I would worship it.  I am content to live my own life, and fend for myself, so when I die, I can be proud of the fact that no matter where I end up, it will be because of *my* actions and *my* choices.  If your god decides to toss me into a flaming pit for this, then so be it.  I would much rather just cease to exist.  But if your god wants my respect and my obedience, then it had better earn these; and if it does, then they will be very strong and true.  >Jesus gives more reasons in John 16:7.  But one obvious reason >why Jesus died, (and as with everything else, it has nothing do with >his punishment) was that he could rise to life again--so that >we would "stop doubting and believe" (John 21:27).  The fact >that Jesus rose from the dead is my hope that I too will rise >from the dead.  It is an obvious point.  Do not overlook it. >Without this obvious point, I would have no hope >and my faith would be vanity.  Jesus wasn't the only one who rose from the dead -- I think it was Osiris who did the same, as well as a few characters from Greek or Norse legend, if memory serves.  But still: WHY would I want to rise from the dead?  Why do *you* want to?  >Why did Jesus suffer in his death?  Again, ask Jesus.  Jesus >says why in John 15:18-25.   That's no mystery either.  "The >world hates him without reason."  It is a direct proclamation >of how far we humans botch things up and thus, how much we >need a Saviour.  If your god wants to win my devotion, then it knows what it can do -- provide some way for me to believe without having to resort to blind faith that could be applied equally well to any religion.  >And why can't you, Brian K., accept this?  How can you?  "The >world cannot accept him because it neither sees him nor knows >him."  (John 14:17).  That's precisely it.  I neither see nor know Zeus either, nor Odin. Shall I offer them the same devotion I offer Jesus?  >The animosity and the lack of knowledge >that comes out in your twistings of Robert's daily verses is >very convincing testimony of the truth of John 14:17 and 16:25.  You've got to understand my point-of-view: I see Christians spouting Bible verse all the time as if it were some sort of magic spell that will level all opposition.  Truth is, it's not.  Robert has never demonstrated that he actually understands what the verses imply; he just rattles them off day by day.  Some brazenly fly in the face of common sense and reality, and I point these out where I can.  But even more than that, even when Christians *do* try to explain the verses in their own words, they do so from a Christian point of view, which is that every human being would want to be a Christian if only he or she understood the Christian message properly, and then all strife and suffering on the earth would end.  Here's the problem with that: substitute "Moslem" or "Buddhist" or "Satanist" instead of "Christian", and it means the same thing.  Christanity is a very nice belief set around a very nice book.  But if you want to make me believe that it has any bearing on the REAL WORLD, you've got some convincing to do.  >I pray and hope that I do blurt out such animosity and lack of >knowledge. I am not perfect either.  But regardless of that, I thank >God that Jesus revealed himself to me, without whom I'd also be >bumbling about blindly though arrogantly slandering the very >Person who created me and who loves me.  And in my opinion, you're bumbling about blindly making up entities where there aren't any, and depriving yourself of a true understanding and enjoyment of your life.  As long as you keep your beliefs to yourself, I'll keep my beliefs to myself -- but as soon as you start waving them around, expect me to toss in my opinions, too.