jasons@atlastele.com (Jason Smith) writes: >bskendig@netcom.com (Brian Kendig) writes: >=  >= And I felt torn when I began to disagree with a lot of what the Bible >= (and my priests) told me;  > >Did it start getting a little uncomfortable?  Did your style start feeling a >bit cramped?  Yes, that's exactly what I felt.  My heart just felt that what I was being taught was *wrong* -- a basically good message, but framed in errors.  I could not with a clear conscience accept that women were somehow not equal to men, that homosexuals are "guilty" of their lifestyle, that pride in one's work is a bad thing, that Jesus died for me -- I don't want ANYBODY to die for me, especially as an impersonal act where the person can't possibly even *know* me well enough to really know if I'm worth dying for or not.  I was never able to accept the bit about Jesus's death being a good thing.  If that means that I'm just not comprehending a basic message of Christianity, then so be it.  Maybe I'm just not compatible with Christianity.  I just refuse to follow rules blindly, and since I can't even convince myself that your god even EXISTS in the way you describe it, I've got to just follow my own conscience in these matters.  >I know how that goes.  Knowing I couldn't and didn't want to  >live up to those impossibleand rather incovenient rules are what kept me >outside, too.    Don't think that my morals are shoddy or nonexistent just because I don't believe in your god.  I will not steal, and I will not murder -- not because I fear divine repudiation, but because these just *aren't* in my character.  You may think there's nothing keeping me from just running around on a murdering spree, stealing things when I'm able, insulting people for the heck of it, because I'm not answerable to anyone; but you'd be wrong.  I'm answerable to myself.  A life like that would be a cheap life; I happen to want to earn respect in myself.  >'Till I met the Man, that is.  My initial break with Christianity came after a lot of soul-searching and a lot of wondering why I could no longer feel the 'presence' of God with me.  I finally decided that I had once "felt" this presence just as I had "felt" my mighty teddy bear beside me when I was a little tyke, protecting me from the monsters under the bed -- that I had believed in God just as I had believed in the teddy bear, as something of an emotional crutch to protect me from perceived dangers.  Since then, I've never abandoned the possibility that maybe your supernatural trinity does exist.  But there are a few times when, in my darkened room by my bed, I have set aside everything I believe for a moment and called out to whatever's out there, because I want to know the truth even if it means abandoning everything I know.  And I have not yet received an answer.  >= Only when I truly listened to myself, body and soul, did I realize >= that I could no longer honestly keep up the charade of being >= Christian.  There is a higher truth in the universe, and Christianity >= just ain't it. > >Any suggestions on what (or who or where) it might be, and why?  Nope.  It may well be unknowable.  Scientists have suggested that the universe may be finite and wrap around on itself (the three-dimensional universe may be mapped onto a four-dimensional supersphere in the same way you can map a two-dimensional plane onto a three-dimensional sphere; see _Sphereland_, the sequel to _Flatland_, for more thoughts on this).  Our entire universe might just be an electron in a four- dimensional universe, which in turn may only be an insignificant speck in a universe above that, and so on and so forth until the variables become too much for us to even speculate on.  That is, there's no possible way for us to know exactly how we came to be, so there's no reason at all to believe that your God exists nor had anything to do with it.  >"OK," you may say. "So now, if I'm just being good, am I doing good enough?" > >That's for you to answer.  If you feel you're doing fine, then go ahead and >ignore us foolish little Christians.  We can present what we've seen and >experienced (providing our witness), but it isn't up to us to make that seed >sprout.    Christians have provided me with nothing except quotes from your holy book, and all sorts of tactics to try to get me to believe: guilt trips, insinuations that I'm without morals, arguments from disbelief ("how can you possibly believe that God *doesn't* exist?"), and so forth.  All I'm asking is for you to convince me.  I want to be convinced, but it's not going to be easy.  >So much as you don't like what we're "selling", there just may be someone >out there that can identify with it.  Methinks you could give us all a  >lesson in tolerance and back off.  Having had years upon years of contact with your religion from both the inside and the outside, I view it as harmful in many ways.  It preys on people who want to find meaning in their lives, and once it's got these people, it teaches them to have pity (and sometimes starkly intolerant) of others who do not share these views.  Maybe you'll say that your religion doesn't teach that -- but I've got to judge Christianity from the Christians I know.  I feel that it is entirely possible and good to have faith in one's self, and to be a positive influence on society for no better reason than that.  So I hope that my words in this newsgroup will at least make some people think.  I want Christians to realize that there are perfectly valid lifestyles and opinions that have nothing to do with their deity whatsoever, and I want people who are considering Christianity to realize that Christianity does not hold the sole key to a happy, fulfilled life.  I have known some very nice Christians who have done some very nice things.  I think what sets these people apart from the general masses is that they recognize that their religious beliefs may be wrong, and they know the weaknesses of their religion, yet they still decide to believe, but they keep their beliefs to themselves and do not think any less of people who don't agree with them.  >Obviously, the debate on the veracity and reliability of the Source of the >Christian's faith is far from conclusive, notwithstanding how vehemently we >propose otherwise.  Precisely my point.  You've still not given me a reason to be a Christian instead of a Buddhist or a Moslem...  >= The nice thing about religion, if you lose yourself deeply enough in >= it, is that eventually you'll be able to feel justified in most >= anything you want to do. > >Y'know your right.  Fortunately for everyone around me, I'm not religious.   >I'm a Christian.  ... just as the Moslems aren't religious, and the Buddhists aren't religious.  Who *is* religious, then?