waashk/20ng huggingface dataset:
Michael Sells <m_sells@haverford.edu> writes: > > This is not a fresh case of >>ethnic cleansing but just another chapter in the continuing saga >>of intense mutual hatred, destruction,...  > >Every place on earth is the scene of a saga of mutual hatred and >destruction.  The holocaust was not a "fresh case."  It was another >chapter in a 900 year history of attacks on Jews in Europe.  That didn't >make it acceptable. and Balkan history does not make the genocide against >Bosnian Muslims acceptable.  I guess that it was not acceptable because Germany *also* chose a path of aggression simultaneously that put the interests of other countries in peril. I wonder whether US or other countries would have risked themselves if only Jews were persecuted and Hitler had no imperialist ambitions. (I am no student of history and I am just asking questions.)  If even for a moment you think that I am condoing ethnically motivated violence and killings, you are dead wrong. Let me assure I am not. My only question is this: Do powerful countries have a moral obligation to interefere in other countries if their own interests are not threatened. I cite an essay by Charles Krauthammer in the Time (this week) that discusses this issue eloquently.  For example, did US and other European countries abandon their moral compunctions when they chose not to send military troops to Bombay when Hindus, in a rare fit of impassioned rage, killed many Muslims recently. I think not!  Under what conditions should US interfere in foregin countries, is an abstraction one must clarify before resorting to acrimonious accusations of religious bigotry and such.  Satya Prabhakar
If anyone gets the New York Times, the Edit page has a transcript of a VHS from Hams describing their methods of torture and  execution. I will post it later on.
In article <1993Apr14.125813.21737@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.edu (Brad Hernlem) writes: > >Lebanese resistance forces detonated a bomb under an Israeli occupation >patrol in Lebanese territory two days ago. Three soldiers were killed and >two wounded. In "retaliation", Israeli and Israeli-backed forces wounded >8 civilians by bombarding several Lebanese villages. Ironically, the Israeli >government justifies its occupation in Lebanon by claiming that it is  >necessary to prevent such bombardments of Israeli villages!! > >Congratulations to the brave men of the Lebanese resistance! With every >Israeli son that you place in the grave you are underlining the moral >bankruptcy of Israel's occupation and drawing attention to the Israeli >government's policy of reckless disregard for civilian life. > >Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)   Ahhh, of course. Israeli morality pales in the face of charming events  like the string of PLO-run skyjackings in the mid 80's (remember those  TWA jokes?), and not to forget the Achille Lauro and however many airline bombings they have committed, not to mention bombings on the streets of  Israel (It's gotten to a point where children are told not to go near any bags or containers whose origins they don't know, because they could be  bombs), or last weeks Katyusha rocket attack on Northern Israel by Fatah, those wonderful "mainstream moderates" with whom Israel is attempting to negotiate.  Let's not forget the fact that more Palestinians are killed by Palestinians than by Israelis.  Ahh yes, those charming humanitarian death squads. I've actually seen a videotape of an interrogation (DSee the documentary  _Deadly Currents_--very neutral and balanced--seriously)--It was rather  inquisition-esque. essentially, to prove his loyalty to "the cause" of whichever group it was that was interogating him, he had to turn in someone else, or else face death in one of the many fun-filled ways that the death- squads love so much--beatings, dismemberment, acid, pouring melted plastic on the face of the 'guilty party,' and of course beheading, always my  favorite.  Did you catch the photos in the Washington Post a while back  the execution of a "collaborator?"  3 photos: 1) one Palestinian leading another at gunpoint. 2) The "collaborator" on his knees, the gun pointed at his temple. 3) The executioner standing on the corpse of the "collaborator shouting about how this is what happens to collaborators.  Wonderful justice system, and lots of regard for Human rights. Remember Black September? Ok, so they just tried to take over Jordan, big deal.  I'm rambling now, but are you getting what I'm saying?
In article <bob1.737222733@cos> bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw) writes: >I always believed the statement 'those who do not know their history >are condemned to repeat it (Will Durant ?), but I am beginning to >believe the opposite is true. > >Here in t.p.m and in other newsgroups it seems that history is >mainly remembered to foment hatred or to be used as a club. In the >history of my own people there are ample acts of shame, both done >by my people and done to my people. Since I was not party to any >of those acts, I refuse to accept blame for the evil acts that my >ancestors committed, nor do I direct hatred toward the descendants >of those who committed evil acts against my ancestors.  The obsession with discussions of past (or present) events seems to be largely centered on trying to "prove" that "they" are worse than "us". As we see over and over, that leads nowhere except to make ourselves feel superior. It's as if we've become addicted to periodic injections of "self-affirmation" that draw their power from denigration of the "other" and romanticization of ourselves. The hope is that we will begin  sometime to apply these discussions in some way towards consideration of  how to defuse the situation, advancement of negotiations and the search  for common ground between the parties involved.   Of course, for this to happen we can't believe that the best path to  *making ourselves feel better* is at the expense of others. As long as  those valuing the coming together of "opposing" parties do not pursue  their vision with the same passion as do those polarization specialists,  we will stay stuck in the circus of one-upsmanship we now have. We're getting precisely what we are willing to work for. > >Shalom, Salam, and Peace >
In article <20APR93.23565659.0109@VM1.MCGILL.CA> B8HA000 <B8HA@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA> writes: >In Re:Syria's Expansion, the author writes that the UN thought >Zionism was Racism and that they were wrong.  They were correct >the first time, Zionism is Racism and thankfully, the McGill Daily >(the student newspaper at McGill) was proud enough to print an article >saying so.  If you want a copy, send me mail. > >Steve >
In article <C50wJJ.J4r@newsflash.concordia.ca>, ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira) writes: |> In article <4805@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes: |> > |> > |> >What are the borders the Islamic world dreams about ?? |>  |> The Islamic world dreams of being the whole planet, but not by kicking |> the current inhabitant out, we rather deam of the day everybody converts. |> If Jews had the same dream, I would not feel threatened a bit.  Contrary to what the "Protocols of Zion crowd" might suggest, Judaism does not have any such goals.  |> >Islamic readers, I am waiting to your honest answer. |>  |> I want also a honest answer from Zionists for the following questions: |>  |> 1)why do jews who don't even believe in God (as is the case with many |> of the founders of secular zionism) have a right in Palestine more |> than the inhabitants of Palestine, just because God gave you the land?  The question you ask is complicated and deserves an honest answer. I am going to provide one from my own current perspective, not a historical one.  Currently, as a non-observant jew/Israeli/American, my own feeling is that Jews from the diaspora do not have a greater right in Palestine or Israel, than the palestinians or Israelis (both arab and jew) do. With regard to Jewish Israelis, they should have the same rights in Israel as do all other Israelis.  |> 2)Why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of |> the inhabitants are not Jews and do not want to be part of Israel?  Who are them?  If by them you mean the non-religious Jews, I think you should be aware by now that the majority of the settlers and their supporters are religious.  The other part of the problem is, to my knowledge, not that the palestinians don't want to be a part of Israel, as much as they would accept (for the most part) being full citizens of Israel, with all the priviliges and responsibilities accorded Israeli citizens.  What they object to is the current limbo in which they find themselves.
In article <HM.93Apr24130607@angell.cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:  >Arab civilians did die at Dir yassin. But there was no massacre. First >of all, the village housed many *armed* troops.   Nobody ever produced the meagerest evidence for this.  It does not appear in several long published accounts by Irgun participants. Even some Irgun propagandists do not make this claim.  >Secondly, the Irgun >and Stern fighters had absolutely no intentions of killing civilians.  Several members of the Irgun attacking party, including the leader, deposited personal declarations in the Irgun archives (Jabotinsky Institute, Tel-Aviv) which state that the Lehi proposed to "liquidate the village after the conquest".  It seems the Begin overruled this plan, however the willingness of many of the attackers to seriously consider this possibility serves as instructive character evidence.  >The village was attacked only for its military significance.   The Haganah tried to get the Irgun to attack a village with real military significance, but it was considered too hard.   The soft target of Deir Yassin was chosen instead.  >In fact, >a warning was given to the occupants of the village to leave before >the attack was to begin.  There was intention (probably originating with Begin) to give such a warning but the loudspeaker truck got stuck in a ditch before reaching the village.  Everyone knows that.  >By all rational standards, Dir Yassin was not a massacre.   By all rational standards, you should be posting from b-cpu.  >The killing >was unintentional. The village housed Arab snipers and Arab troops. >Thus it was attacked for its military significance. It was not >attacked with intentions of killing any civilians.  A lie repeated is still a lie.  >To even compare Dir Yassin, in which some 120 or so Arabs died, to the >Holocaust is absurd. The Irgun did not want to kill any civilians. The >village had almost 1000 inhabitants, most of whom survived. > >Harry.
In article <2528@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au> jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (Joseph Askew) writes: >In article <1993Apr13.002118.24102@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes: >>In article <1993Apr12.184034.1370@bnr.ca> zbib@bnr.ca writes: > >>>IMHO, it does not really matter who started any individual battle within >>>the Arabs/Isreal war context. The real question is who/what  started the >>>War. Does anyone have any doubts it was the creation of Israel on Arab >>>land ? > >>       Huh?  A war was started when several armies invaded Israel, >>vowing to drive the Jews into the sea.  Most Jews wanted to live in >>peace, and the Arabs who stayed in Israel were granted citizenship. > >It depends entirely on how you define 'war'. The actual fighting largely >predates the Arab invasions - after all Deir Yassin happened in midApril >well before the Arab invasion. As I have said elsewhere Lt Col Lorch has >said that Hagana forces were fighting well before the Arabs invaded as in >months before. As for Jews wanting to live in peace that to is entirely >arguable. I think it is easy enough to show that the Labour party leadership >had no such intention at all. As for the Arabs who 'stayed' don't you mean >those who were not expelled? Even some of those who did 'stay' were not >granted citizenship but expelled after the fighting had stopped anyway. > >Joseph Askew >  How do you define war?  Do seiges and constant attacks on villiages count as acts of war, or is that only when the Jews do them? January, 1948: Arab Liberation Army attacks Kfar Szold                1000 men attack Kfar Etzion, 14 miles south of Jerusalem,                     after cutting off the supply lines to it. Attacks on Yehiam (Western Galilee) and kibbutz Tirat Tzvi. By Mid-March, The Jewish settlements in the Negev had been cut off from       land links with the rest of the Jewish population.          The Etzion group of villiages, near Hebron, had been cut off,             while 42 members of a convoy trying to supply Yehiam were             slaughtered, cutting off the villiage. Jerusalem was under seige, being cut off from its supply route from      Tel Aviv (the bombed out supply trucks have been left on the side      of that road to this day in memoriam).  By this time, 1200 Jews       had been killed.  Of course, this isn't war, since it's only the Arabs attacking. Just like last week when the Fatah launched Katyusha rockets against Northern israel.  Where does uprising end and war begin? Will it still be 'Intifadah' when the PLO brings in tanks?   >--  >Joseph Askew, Gauche and Proud  In the autumn stillness, see the Pleiades, >jaskew@spam.maths.adelaide.edu  Remote in thorny deserts, fell the grief. >Disclaimer? Sue, see if I care  North of our tents, the sky must end somwhere, >Actually, I rather like Brenda  Beyond the pale, the River murmurs on.
In article <C6z3JD.ApB@news2.cis.umn.edu> prabhak@giga.cs.umn.edu (Satya Prabhakar) writes:  >My reference is a 4 page essay in our local Star Tribute newspaper >putting the whole conflict in perspective. I will readily admit >that I am no authority in this area; however, other posteers  >asserted that *some* Muslims did join hands with Croats and >Nazis in persecuting Serbs. In any case, past actions do not  And the best evidence you can find is second hand hearsay from an unnamed source? You may indeed be confusing *some* Muslims  with Nazi Armenians. Altogether 30,000 Nazi Armenians served in  various units in the German Wehrmacht, according to Ara J. Berkian.  14,000 in predominantly Armenian army units, 6,000 in German army  units, 8,000 in various working units and 2,000 in the Waffen-SS.[1]  A number of these Nazi Armenians were volunteers from France, Greece, Rumania and Bulgaria who had chosen to commit themselves to the German war effort. Derounian says that  "Dashnag Armenians from France bore the mark 'Legion  Armenienne.'"[2]  That Nazi Armenians like Dro 'the Butcher' and Nezhdeh sided with the Germans probably had an impact on the decision of Armenians who overwhelmingly opted for armed service.  [1] Enno Meyer, A. J. Berkian, 'Zwischen Rhein und Arax, 900     Jahre Deutsch-Armenische beziehungen,' (Heinz Holzberg     Verlag-Oldenburg 1988), pp. 118/119.      [2] John Roy Carlson (Arthur Derounian), in 'The Armenian      Displaced Persons,' ibid., p. 19.  In fall 1942, the Armenian infantry battalions 808 and 809 were formed, to be followed by battalions 810, 812 and 813 in spring 1943. In the  second half of 1943 infantry battalions 814, 815 and 816 were created. These battalions together with other indigenous Caucasian units were attached to the infantry division 162. Also attached to ID 162 were the field battalions II/9, I/125 and I/198 which were formed between May 1942 and May 1943. Altogether twelve Armenian battalions served the Nazi army, if battalion II/73, which was not employed at any time, is to be included.[1] Most battalions were commanded by Nazi Armenian officers. Armenians wore German uniforms with an armband in the Dashnag colours  red-blue-orange and the inscription 'Armenien.'  [1] Joachim Hoffmann, 'Dies Ostlegionen 1941-1943, Turkotataren,      Kaukasier und Wolgafinned im deutschen Heer,' (Verlag Rombach     Freiburg 1976), p. 172.  While having collaborated with the Nazis against Stalin during the Second World War, Nazi Armenians changed their policy after Hitler's defeat. They now backed Stalin's claims on Eastern Turkish provinces, hoping that these would be annexed to Soviet Armenia and their Muslim  population would be exterminated. Stalin played on Armenian national sentiments to enlist the support of Armenians in the USSR and America for his imperial ambitions.[1] Stalin's ultimatum to the Turkish government led Truman to formulate his famous Doctrine.  [1] Walter Kolarz, 'Religion in the Soviet Union,' (London, Macmillan &     Co Ltd; New York, St Martin's Press 1961), pp. 160-164.  Serdar Argic
It is appropriate to add what Himmler said other "inferior races"  and "human animals" in his speech at Posen and elsewhere:   From the speech of Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler, before SS Major-Generals, Posen, October 4 1943 ["Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression", Vol. IV, p. 559] ------------------------------------------------------------------- One basic principal must be the absolute rule for the SS man: we must be honest, decent, loyal, and comradely to members of our own blood and to nobody else. What happens to a Russian, to a Czech, does not interest me in the slightest. What the nations can offer in good blood of our type, we will take, if necessary by kidnapping their children and raising them with us. Whether nations live in prosperity or starve to death interests me only in so far as we need them as slaves for our culture; otherwise, it is of no interest to me. Whether 10,000 Russian females fall down from exhaustion while digging an anti-tank ditch interest me only in so far as the anti-tank ditch for Germany is finished. We shall never be rough and heartless when it is not necessary, that is clear. We Germans, who are the only people in the world who have a decent attitude towards animals, will also assume a decent attitude towards these human animals. But it is a crime against our own blood to worry about them and give them ideals, thus causing our sons and grandsons to have a more difficult time with them. When someone comes to me and says, "I cannot dig the anti-tank ditch with women and children, it is inhuman, for it will kill them", then I would have to say, "you are a murderer of your own blood because if the anti-tank ditch is not dug, German soldiers will die, and they are the sons of German mothers. They are our own blood".    Extract from Himmler's address to party comrades, September 7 1940 ["Trials of Wa Criminals", Vol. IV, p. 1140] ------------------------------------------------------------------ If any Pole has any sexual dealing with a German woman, and by this I mean sexual intercourse, then the man will be hanged right in front of his camp. Then the others will not do it. Besides, provisions will be made that a sufficient number of Polish women and girls will come along as well so that a necessity of this kind is out of the question.  The women will be brought before the courts without mercy, and where the facts are not sufficiently proved - such borderline cases always happen - they will be sent to a concentration camp. This we must do, unless these one million Poles and those hundreds of thousands of workers of alien blood are to inflict untold damage on the German blood. Philosophizing is of no avail in this case. It would be better if we did not have them at all - we all know that - but we need them.
I have just started reading the articles in this news group. There seems to be an attempt by some members to quiet other members with scare tactics. I believe one posting said that all postings by one person are being forwarded to his server who keeps a file on him in hope that "Appropriate action might be taken".  	I don't know where you guys are from but in America such attempts to curtail someones first amendment rights are not appreciated. Here, we let everyone speak their mind regardless of how we feel about it. Take your fascistic repressive ideals back to where you came from.
In article <1993Apr27.202905.9409@Virginia.EDU>, ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi Beyer") writes: > 	A few things about the University. It is more fun than some may > admit. Partying does go on and it has consistently been ranked > one of Playboy's top party schools. But we do study and more > importantly learn a lot. The overall UVa drug use is actually > lower than the average college in the U.S. > 	There is no hate law on the books even though they (The > forces of PC) tried to have one last year( by the way a similar > law at the University of Wisconsin ? was found unconstitutional > last year). There is a law > against relationship of professors with their students or > advisees that just passed. > 	Thomas Jefferson was the sole author of the Virginia > statute for religious freedom(the basis for the first ten > amendments), though he is not given full credit for righting > the bill of rights. So someone who picked on me for that is > right. > 	By the way, we're the man in everything. Sports > academics and partying. I'm sure a lot of other schools are > good at what they do as well, so don't start mailing me junk. > I'm happy where I am and maybe I'll go to one of y'alls medical > schools in a couple of years.   Medical school ? Like your fellow Austrian Dr. Mengele ??  Josh
It seems to me that many readers of this conference are interested who is behind the Center for Polict Research. I will oblige.  My name is Elias Davidsson, Icelandic citizen, born in Palestine. My mother was thrown from Germany because she belonged to the 'undesirables' (at that times this group was defined as 'Jews'). She was forced to go to Palestine due to many  cynical factors. I have meanwhile settled in Iceland (30 years ago) and met many people who were thrown out from my homeland, Palestine, because of the same reason (they belonged to the 'indesirables'). These people include my neighbors in Jerusalem with the children of whom I played as child. Their crime: Theyare not Jews. My conscience does not accept such injustice, period. My work for justice is done in the name of my principled opposition to racism and racial discrimination. Those who protest against such practices in Arab countries have my support - as long as their protest is based on a principled position, but not as a tactic to deflect criticism from Israel. The struggle against discrimination and racism is universal.  The Center for Policy Research is a name I gave to those activities undertaken under my guidance in different domains, and which command the support of many volunteers in Iceland. It is however not a formal institution and works with minimal funds.  Professionally I am music teacher and composer. I have published  several pieces and my piano music is taught widely in Europe.  I would hope that discussion about Israel/Palestine be conducted in a more civilized manner. Calling names is not helpful.
I have read -just today- two articles dripping of hate and offence to a great deal of people. I could  find as much matching hatred in your articles as I have found in some of the self-righteous "Kill-in-the-name of God" people.  I don't know why you are so attcaking to everyone, is it a reaction to the hatred calls on this newsgroup, or is it a reaction to hardships you have seen and experienced from before... I have learnt not to judge people by only what they say, but rather try to put myself in their place and aspire to understand their feelings.  I hope you would be able to do the same with everyone, starting by your ownself, because only through that you could be able to understand your feelings and act in a the manner you would aspire everyone to adopt.  Thanks for your time