In article <1993May10.041759.10164@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes: >> >>I believe that Zionism, as it is, is a form of racism. By "as it is" I mean >>not the fact that is nacionalism, but the specific ideas it supports, the >>form it defines what a Jew is and the way it wants to accomplish its goals. >>It has nothing to do with hypocrisy. > >It has everything to do with hypocrisy.  We've dealt with with your >arguments about history before on this net:  suffice it to say you >haven't succeeded in convincing anyone - probably because of their lack >of basis.    I do not want to convince anyone. This is just USENET, not the real world. I just read the opinions others have about a subject, and sometimes I present my opinion. I think that this net is only useful to exchange ideas. I never wanted nor I want now to convince anyone of anything.   >Now if you want to deal with what certain people say, that >is fine.  But by condemning the movement - which is NOTHING more than >Jewish nationalism and NEVER HAS BEEN anything more than that - you are >saying - quite literally - that it is racist to think that Jews - your >own people, it should be added - have the right to a state in their >homeland, the same right every other nation has.  If you don't agree >with that, I suggest you read a dictionary.  Because your interpretation >is just plain inconsistent with that dictionary definition as well as >modern history.  First, and I repeat it, I never said that the idea of Jews having the right to have a State is racist. Zionism, as a movement, is more than just that idea. I think that Zionism in the way it defines who is a Jew, for example, is racist-like. In the same way I believe that Irish have a right to nationalism but I do not support the bombing and killing of the IRA, I believe that Jews have a right to nationalism but I do not support Zionism as it is right now.  > > >Here's where you're wrong.  Here's also where you should know you're >wrong.  Zionism is in no way monolithic.  Never has been.  Approaches to >Zionism are as widespread as the ideologies of Hashomer Hatzair and Meir >Kahane.  Some of those approaches *ARE* racist - Kahane, for one.  But >every approach to Zionism defines those goals differently and also >defines a different approach to those goals.  The single commonality is >the belief that Jews, like every other nation on Earth, deserve their >own homeland.  PERIOD.    That is what makes the basis for Zionist movements. However, I am not  considering just that, but the rest of it.   > >> As long as Zionism considers, for >>example, who is a Jew in a Jewish State based on religion, I will consider >>Zionism a form of Racism. > >As you well know, over 80% of Israeli Jews are secular - in other words >they are in no way religious, and most probably don't even believe in G-d.  Which makes an interesting point. People living in a Jewish State have shown that Jewish culture includes in it Jewish religion but they are not the same. So, the Jewish people living in the Jewish State have shown  us that there are some problems in a State where 80% of the people is secular but Judaism is define according to religious standards, or where marriage is a religious stage, or where the Law of Return defines a Jew according to a religious standard. Did those Israelis who do not believe in god and will never do become  non-Jews? Why should they still define then a Jew based on what is a  religious definition?    >>Maybe, I would consider hypocrisy to support Zionism and disregard the  >>right to self-determination of the Palestinian people and their struggle to >>reach it. > >If you'd wanted to say that in the first place, you should have said it >then.  I took you at your word.  In other words, I took your words to >have their normal, dictionary definition.  It is now quite obvious that >you use a different dictionary than the rest of the English-speaking >world, and that you base your analysis on misconceptions.   According to Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, Merriam-Webster Inc, Publishers, Springfield, Massachusetts, U.S.A., 1986, page 593,   hy-poc-ri-sy: A feigning to be what one is nnot or to believe one does not.  So, saying that one believes in Zionism as a simple matter of people  having the right to nationalism, but disregarding the right of the Palestinian people to do the same, according to this dictionary, is hypocrisy.   >>If you are really interested on what I think, instead of directly coming with  >>labels, like "hypocrat", send me a mail to aap@wam.umd.edu, and we can >>exchange ideas. > >How about learning what your words mean for once?  I stand by what I've >said.  I know what my words mean. I do stand by what I said I believe: Zionism is a form of racism. Of course, I tend to talk about things as they are and not as they are defined in a broad sense.  >     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu>  >  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder