In article <oprsfnx.735015349@gsusgi1.gsu.edu> oprsfnx@gsusgi2.gsu.edu (Stephen F. Nicholas) writes: >daubendr@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Darren R Daubenspeck) writes: > > >>> they are pretty much junk, stay away from them.  they will be replaced next >>> year with all new models.   > > >>Junk?  They've made the C&D lists for years due to their excellent handling and   >>acceleration.  They have been around since about, oh, 85 or 86, so they're not   >>the newest on the lot, and mileage is about five to eight MPG under the class   >>leader.  You can get into a 3.0 L v-6 (141 hp) Shadow for $10~11K (the I-4   >>turbo a bit more), and a droptop for $14~15K.   > > > As an ex-Fleet Mgr. of 3000 cars, they were amoung the most trouble free of >all models.  I bought one for my wife. >   *nnnnnnnng* Thank you for playing, I cannot agree with this.  I believed this and to put it nicely, it was a piece of junk!  I loved this car, I babied it, I pampered it, and after 2 years, it just couldn't stay together, I would say that not everyone will have the problems that I had, but know this, it's not just the car, it is the ability to get the car fixed, which will NOT happen at any chrysler/dodge/take your pick dealer.  I don't care if there are going to reform their dealers/service with the intro of the LH cars, I will believe it when I see it.  Case and point, the local dodge dealer.  You drive up, just looking, you don't even get out of your door, when about 10 (yes 10) salesman all eye you like their next meal, and literally pounce on you, and try to get you to make a deal, on everything your eye wanders towards. Service is about 2 times worse than that.  I had an alignment problem, but they tried to tell me that the K frame was bent, and about 2000 dollars of work/parts to fix it.  Let me tell you the problems I had, and I took care of this car, I put alot of miles on it in the first couple years, but took it to every checkup it needed, and many that shouldn't have been.  1988 Dodge Shadow ES  These were replaced within the 4 years that I owned the car.  Engine  4 Alternators Rear Suspension Torsion Bar 2 Water pumps 5 thermostats Hall effect sensor Main computer 4 Batteries  These were rebuilt/repaired  Radiator Automatic Transmission Power Steering   Those are just the things I can remember off the top of my head.  For about a year before I sold the car, I said to myself, it's a good car, I just can't find anybody competent enough the fix it.  In the end, before I traded it in for a Saturn, the power steering started acting up again.  I just stopped putting money into it.  I must have put at least $5000-$7000 worth of repairs over it's lifetime.  I am sorry but Lee Iacocca can bite me.  Bullshit, whoever backs em best, is just afraid the stupid things are going to fall apart, and no one will buy them without assurance, why the hell do you think that LH has been nicknamed Last Hope.  You can do better, and I know people will disagree with me here, but Japanese, like Honda, or Toyota, or the only american car company that I feel is a quality product, Saturn.  I will not touch another chrysler product again, no way.  I don't care how good the LH cars look good, and I will admit they look promising, but not with the support that you get.  GM isn't much better, thank god, they don't control Saturn, like they do their divisions, or it would be just another marketing ploy.    Don't get me wrong, i will be watching my car (which I do like) like a hawk for the next 4 years.  I am much more hesitant to say it (or any) car is really good, until it has proved itself to me.  But since someone else pointed out C&D as a source.  I will note, because I used to read these magazines, that Car and Driver has never had a good thing to say about most Chrysler products (Shadow for one), always were they moaning about the reguritated K-car, and engine.  Whereas Motor Trend always thought they were great cars.  No car magazine is really objective.  And although there are alot of people who don't like Consumers Reports, I will use them to reinforce my argument (I already know about the big stink with the Saturn crash tests, time will tell how good a car they are), the shadow/sundance rate much worse than average, in fact none of the chrysler's rate a better than average, I think the best one is just average.  Excluding the diamond star/mitsubishi stuff and the LH's.  You can find bad stuff about the Shadow.  Try as I might, when I researched the Saturn, I could not find anything bad about it.  There is a great deal of information about this company, just because it is a new american company and it has created quite a stir in the automotive community, for good reason.  Much more than the introduction of any new model lines of any established company.  I read an article, which had a sub-column, an I think this imprinted on me more than anything else.  Some big wig in Toyota said and I quote, "We are watching them very closely."  Come on, everybody grow up, the foreign cars, especially the japanese have been kicking our butts, for good reason, the american car companies could not make a good product or support the customer the way they want these days, to set in their ways, which is one of the reasons Saturn was created.  They are still struggling because they haven't learned yet.  They have the ability, the workers are not inferior, the technology is not out of date, but their attitude is, and they are just finding this out.  It's called competition gentleman/women if you don't satisfy the demand of the consumer, well your out..    *asbestos suit on*