jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes: >Nothing could at this point.  What WOULD have gone a long way toward  >convincing me would have been media video, particularly from diverse >sources.  IMHO, if the government didn't have anything to hide, they >would have allowed cameras near the compound from the beginning.  I agree, I saw no reason they could not have had "close in" pool cameras manned by volunteers and protected by sandbags or whatever.  [Points made by Dick DeGueran, Koresh's lawyer] >*	The tanks were NOT pumping CS gas but were ejecting exploding  >	canisters from the tank booms that penetrated multiple walls >	before exploding.  Okay, their word against the FBI's at this point.  See ya in court!  >*	The tanks were collapsing interior walls and ceilings putting people >	at great risk.  Dear, dear. They could have COME OUT.  >*	The construction of the coupound used almost all used materials that >	were very dry and bails of hay were stacked against the walls as  >	shields against the government's bullets.  Okay, they were living in a fire hazard. That they built.  >*	Said that previous to the invasion there were no military drills >	and that the supplies they had on hand were for survival.  No crime, irrelevant either way.  >*	Their gas masks worked so well that many members were having bible >	study and some were sleeping when the fire was set.  Ah yes, that is exactly what I would do.  Hold Bible study. Take a nap. Always a wise course of action when you're being gassed.  >*	There was no group instruction of any kind from Koresh or his  >	aids after the tank invasion (referring to any kind of suicide >	pact or counter-assault efforts.)  I don't believe there was a "suicide pact".  I believe that Koresh wanted a fiery conflagration ... which he may not have told his followers. In fact, this hypothesis is CONFIRMED by the survivors' stories.  >*	Everyone had moved to the center of the compound in order to escape >	the falling debris from the tank invasion when the fire was set.   Yes, that's right.  And once the whole compound was demolished, where did they expect to go?  >*	Women and children who has sought shelter on the second floor from >	the tanks were trapped by doors jammed by the tanks ramming the  >	building and distorting the frames.  The building is being RAMMED and they are going UPSTAIRS?  That's almost as bad as running into a fire.  >*	Hallways ran the length of the buildings that acted as conduits for >	the fire and trapped almost everyone in place.  His experts have told >	him that this horizonal chimney effect is what made the fire appear >	to have started at several places at once.  Hm, an interesting notion.  We'll see.  >*	Koresh was not seen the last hour before the fire and was assumed to >	be in his 4th floor room with some of his children.  More Bible study, no doubt.  Hey, it's a *priority*.  >*	The texas medical examiner has stated flatly that none of the bodies >	recovered so far had bullet wounds, directly contradicting the FBI's >	lies.  Actually, on Friday he stated that there was no evidence either way and he could not flatly contradict the federal agents' claims.  We'll know more later.  In any event, it's irrelevant.  >*	The survivors unanimously stated that if the victims could have gotten >	out they would have, that they were trapped by the tank-destroyed  >	building and the speed of the fire.  For six hours they were trapped?  The building was not "destroyed"  immediately.  They COULD HAVE LEFT AT ANY TIME.  >*	The underground bunker cited by the FBI as the place Koresh could have >	put the children had he not been a cold blooded killer had been blocked >	by the tanks crashing down debris on top of the access door.  Six hours to move it away.  Or COME OUT.  >*	Dick said that he had sat in Koresh's bedroom talking to him and  >	had observed that his room was furnished like all the rest and without >	air condition or other luxuries, directly contradicting the FBI's claim  >	that he lived in splendor.  Irrelevant, anyway.  PR one way or the other, but no crime or innocence indicated.  >*	Dick saw bullet holes in Koresh's room made from the outside-in >	which indicates the BATF was indiscriminately shooting down through >	the roof.    No word on whether they were being fired back at, which is an operative question here.  >*  The fire was probably started by the tanks knocking over Coleman Lanterns  >	that were lit and sitting on a piano next to the wall the tanks busted  >	through, though none of the survivors saw the fire start.  Right.  For six hours you know that a tank could come thru the wall at  any point, and you leave a COLEMAN LANTERN BURNING.  Near BALES OF HAY.  >*	Every one of the survivors strongly denies ever saying anything to the  >	FBI about starting the fire, hearing someone say the fire was lit >	or any of the other stuff attributed to them by the FBI.  It's ultimately irrelevant who "lit" the fire.  They had ample opportunity to LEAVE.  >*	He said when he first met Koresh in the compound he expected to find  >	a raving lunatic but instead found a rational, charming and intelligent  >	young man and was very surprised by that fact.    Most charismatic leaders are extremely intelligent, actually.  They tend to be excellent actors and skilled manipulators.  (Ex.: Ted Bundy.)  >*	Koresh had no drugs stronger than aspirin to use against pain.  Medical assistance was jsut a phone call away.  Gee, all he had to do was COME OUT.  >*	Women with children had their own bedrooms for them and their kids >	that were appointed as nicely as Koresh's.  Not relevant to any crimes.  >*	Dick said he saw signs of home schooling for the kids and at no time  >	did he ever see any signs of abuse.  While he was there.  Anyway, outsiders RARELY see abuse.  It's a secretive thing.  All we have to go on are the court documents in the Jewell case and the mistrial in California.  >*	No one was ever held against their wills and could have left at any >	time.  The people who were murdered in the fire were there by their >	own choices.  EXACTLY.  By their OWN CHOICE.  >*	He called for an independent prosecutor.  If ever there were a need >	for one, this is it.  Looks like there will be several investigations, starting with Congressional committee hearings next week....  >His closing comments were "They don't look upon themselves as a cult. >They view themselves as highly religious people.  They sincerely believe >what they believe.  And who am you or I to judge that as wrong?" > >His last sentence says it all.  Who the hell ARE we (or the government) >to judge their religion as wrong.  This event, I hope, will be recorded >in history as the American Holocaust.  These people were murdered  >by the US government just as surely as the jews were by the Nazis. >I hang my head in shame for what I've allowed my government to become.  I have NEVER judged them by their religion, but by their ACTIONS.  If they had lived a quiet, religious life as they claimed, there would have been no raid, no siege, and no deaths.  Instead, they chose courses of action at every turn that were at the very least STUPID, if not IRRATIONAL.  The first was to stockpile weapons.  The second was to shoot federal agents.  The third was to stay inside.  Just as we don't blame a cop who shoots a kid who had pointed a toy weapon at him, I don't think the FBI deserves blame in this case.