isaackuo@skippy.berkeley.edu (Isaac Kuo) states in reply to deleted article about no-knock searches, arrests   >Hmm.  The police strategy of bursting in with weapons drawn, clearly >marked as officers and yelling "Police" repeatedly.  This is used every >day to bust drug houses.  The idea is to awe the suspects into >submission with surprise and display of firepowere in order to avoid a >gun fight.  As for not knocking, it's a sad necessity in many cases >since the suspects will attempt to escape or even fight.  Usually this >strategy works; if it didn't, then it wouldn't be used so commonly, now >would it?  In general no-knock raids are to preserve evidence, like drugs, which can be flushed down the toilet.  They are not the standard way to arrest a violent felon like a bank robber.  If there is no need to search or preserve evidence they will just surround the dwelling and order the suspect to come out with her hands up.  If the suspect does not come out tear gas will be used.   comment on the BD omitted   >I merely point out that it IS a valid strategy which is used every day. >Furthermore, we don't know of any substitute strategy capable of >apprehending potentially dangerous and armed suspects.  Do you suggest  It is not a method to apprehend criminals.  >that the police always knock with guns holstered and never arrest any >suspects until they have been allowed to inspect the officers's badges? >Just what should the police do when apprehending potentially dangerous >and armed suspects? How far can they reasonably go to identity >themselves? What do you suggest they can do which can't be faked by the >"competition"?  It is a very dangerous method to obtain evidence that might be destroyed if a warrant is served in the normal way.  It is the most dangerous way to arrest anyone.  The cops are charging into a room and they don't know what is in it.  It is much safer to surround the place and announce yourself.   >Even if you've got deadly enemies who may pretend to be cops, that's >not an excuse to murder police.  In the case of the BD's, there was >almost definitely at most the paranoid delusion of deadly enimies who >would pretend to be cops.  Cops are not cops _until_ they identify themselves as police officers.   Most drug dealers and professional criminals are aware of the likelihood of arrest but they also know how the system works.  If they are arrested they call their lawyer, post bail and hope for a plea bargain.  If they pull a gun and shoot a cop during a raid they will be charged with first degree murder if they survive the raid.  Drug dealers have guns for protection from their customers and other criminals, not to shoot cops.  Cops are shot on no-knock drug raids because the criminals aren't aware that they are cops.  No-knock raids on homes occupied by non-criminals are more likely to end in disaster.  Mom and Pop citizen _KNOW_ that they have not committed any crime, they KNOW that anyone breaking into their house cannot be a cop because they have done nothing wrong.  If they have the means to defend themselves they may because they KNOW that the housebreakers are criminals not cops.  Cops and homeowners may die.  The first reports from Waco stated that the ATF had a warrant to search for illegal weapons and also an arrest warrant if the illegal weapons were found.  In this case the no-knock warrant was not called for.  It is difficult to flush a gun down the toilet.  The ATF could have surrounded the compound.  A marked police car could have driven up to the entrance and uniformed officers could have knocked and served the warrant usual way.  It this had happened and and Koresh refused the warrant or drove the cops off at gun point then most of the t.p.g folks would have kept quiet.