king@ctron.com (John E. King) writes: >Not exactly.  The prophesy clearly implies that people would >still be living in the area, but by the same token it would >never be "rebuilt".  Obviously , if people are still there they >would live in houses, correct?  Their "nets" implies a fishing >village.  This is exactly what it has become -- a far cry from >its original position of stature .  Looking at [1] we find that during Roman times "Tyre vied with Sidon for first place in the intellectual life of the period"; that Tyre was the seat of a Christian bishop, eventually with 14 dioceses under it; that "the most magnificent church of its kind in all Phoenecia" was the basilica built in Tyre ca. 314; that Tyre was well known for its exports of glassware, wine, white marble, and dyed cloth; that Tyre, along with other seaports, "provided outlets for South Arabian, Indian and even Chinese trade"; that Tyre had to accomodate its growing population by "following a perpendicular, rather than horizontal, line of growth" (because it was running out of land to build on); that Tyre established colonies of its own.  None of this sounds like a "small fishing village" by any stretch of the imagination.  Centuries later, under the Abbasids, Tyre had "opulent and flourishing bazaars" and buildings of 5-6 stories.  During this period, Tyre was "noted for its export of sugar, beads, and, as of old, glassware." During the Crusades, Tyre was the second-most flourishing city held by Franks.  (There is a lot more, but I got tired of writing.)  In [2] we read the following description of modern Lebanon: "other *major cities* in Lebanon include Tripoli, Sidon, Tyre, Baalbek and Zahlah."  [my emphasis]  This source also discusses the impact of the Lebanese Civil War, and the Israeli military actions (1978, 1982) on the trading ports of Tyre and Sidon.  It notes that after Israel's withdrawel in 1984, "Tyre appeared to enjoy a revival of its local economy."  If Tyre is such an insignificant little fishing village at present, why is it always called a city (or, above, a "major city")?  Why does it show up on all the maps?   When population figures for cities in Lebanon are given, why is Tyre always one of the cities on the list (even if the list is only a dozen cities long)?  [1] Philip K. Hitti, _Lebanon in History: From the earliest times to the present_, NY, St. Martins, 1967.    [2] Federal Research Division, Library of Congress, _Lebanon: a country study_, edited by Thomas Collelo, 1989.  >>In the early 1980's Tyre had over 22,000 people. > >So far I've seen stated figurers ranging from 15,000 to 22,000. >Let's assume the latter one is correct.  By modern standards >we are talking about a one-horse town.  A one-horse town?  Sounds like a lot of work for one horse. (Anyway, Tyre is connected by roads to the mainland.  They may even use cars these days. :-)   The 1991 Encyclopedia Britannica says "Pop. (1982 est.) 23,000."   Most other references give figures in the 14-17 thousand range. (One atlas gives the population of Tyre as 60,000; the same source give comparatively high figures for Sidon and Beirut, also, so I doubt that it is a typo.  Perhaps these were figures for the cities and their surrounding areas.)  I don't doubt that the population of Tyre has fluctuated over the last few decades.  In particular, the 1982 Israeli military action hurt Tyre quite a bit.     >> After Alex the G it fell once more in the 1200's, I believe.  What >>other times did it fall that you were thinking of?  > >To Egypt (250 bce); to the Seleucids (198 bce); Rome (63 bce); after >Rome it fell to various Arab contingents until 1124 ce when it was >captured in the Crusades;  it was then recaptured again by the Muslims >in 1291 ce and subsequently pillaged; then the French, Turks, British, >and today, Lebanon.  I thought you were talking about times that Tyre was destroyed. Don't most, if not all, of these apply not just to Tyre but to  the other cities in the area?  Sidon, for example?  Can you make a case for Tyre having been singled out?  >>Well, it recovered enough to have a thriving commerce in the dye >>"Tyrian purple" in Roman times.  > >This is correct, but they were under Roman domination, and the  >majority of the created wealth was siphoned off.  The prophesy >hold true.  They had a good deal of autonomy under the Seleucids. From [2]: Tyre "receiv[ed] the rights [of autonomy] from Antiochus Ephiphanes and from 125 BC onward enjoy[ed] complete autonomy. She started a large series of coins, occasionally in gold ..."  The descriptions of Tyre under the Romans don't seem to fit your characterization, either.  And under the Abbasids it seems to have been allowed to flourish.  I still think you are stretching when you try to describe Tyre as having been nothing but a small fishing village.  >Who is Josh McDowell.  A Christian apologist whose standards of scholarship are quite low. He happens to quote the same source you quote (Nina Jidejian, _Tyre through the Ages_, Beirut, Dar El-Mashreq Publishers, 1969). The same sentence, in fact.  He defends the fulfillment of the prophecy using the same argument you are using, an argument that I haven't seen in print anywhere else, which is why I jumped to the conclusion that you were quoting Josh.  (I tried to find the Jidejian book, but it isn't listed in Books in Print.  Can you tell me more about it? Her descriptions are so much at odds with everything else I've read; I'm curious to know why.)