In article <2BF69FC7.2150@news.service.uci.edu> tclock@orion.oac.uci.edu (Tim Clock) writes: >In article <1t5muj$8vt@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes: >>In article <1t5bph$dtr@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> aa824@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes: >>> >>>    And, if you are Jewish, you are a self-hating Jew.  There can >>>    be no doubt of this.   >> >>There are doubts about it. Why don't you define what self-hating Jew means? >>I found the idea itself of being a self-hating Jew to be one of those >>I hope you can come up with a definition in itself... > >Try coming up with your own definition of any or all "self-hating" peoples. >To me, any who reject their culture to the point where they *only* see the >absolute negatives of that culture (generally, or regarding a particular >event) and accept *only* those views purely opposing aspects of that culture  >(thus, selective belief in and use of historical facts and a complete ignoring >of "context" results) "hate" their culture.   I believe that things are getting mixed here. Critizicing Israel and/or being anti-zionist is not seeing "the absolute  negatives of that culture". Maybe, because a person can see the positives  of that culture is that that person opposes zionism and the actions of the State of Israel. I, for one, consider the actions of the State of Israel with respect to the human rights of the Palestinian people as an example of an action thaty opposes what Jewish culture was suppose to uphold as an example of  respect and what the Jewish people learned about oppresion, segregation and years in the diaspora.   >That certainly describes Elias,  >since he has no intention of recognizing that, alongside the Palestinian >experience and perspective, there exists also that of Israelis.   He might not want to recognize that. It does not make him a self-hating Jew, as far as I see it. At most, he is a person who is not telling the truth.   >>> >>>    "Who is a Jew?  A person whose integrity decays when unmoved  >>>    by the knowledge of wrong done to other people."  >>>                                                   A. J. Heschel >> >>That is why I get moved when I see the Israeli Army killing people in  >>the Occupied Territories as much as I get moved when I see a Plestinian >>stabing people in Israel. >> >>AAP >> >And, this is precisely why Israeli society has been tremendously harmed >by the actions it (its government) has *felt it had to take* in response >to an "other" perceived as a threat. Just as with you, there has long  >been a strident and emotional debate about the pain Israelis feel when  >forced to "balance" desires for survival and moral beliefs. The trauma >of having to make that choice is made worse by the fact that neither >can be conveniently brushed aside (as a result of a reasoned political >debate) for the sake of the other, only reshaped.  >  But, so far, it seems that the blame is always put on "the other". If you read this newsgroup, for example, Israel is never guilty by herself. She is always responding to the actions of the "other", and it goes as if the actions of Isreal do not also affect the response of the "other' in a cycle that never ends. Also, there is blindness to try to understand what the other feels and why. There is always and excuse. There is always a rationale to explain why things happen as they do. And, what is the worst part for me, there seems to be all the time an intention to try to de-humanize the "other", as if the other did not care about their future, children, peace, etc, etc.  >-- >Tim Clock                                   Ph.D./Graduate student