-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----  Gasp!  I've just spent 3 hours catching up on sci.crypt here (slow reader I guess) and I really have to put out a few comments too.  First, let me flame the famous Dave S. : He's obviously only 10 years old.  Cut him some slack. :^}  The joke about Clinton/crypto/drugs slammed me thru the roof.  Nice job guys!  I've been working on marijuana legalization for over 5 years now, Clinton's actions so far have really helped.  But because of government action taken against various other groups, I have developed a 64 bit DES based on public literature to protect my mailing list. The S-boxes are the critical component, and since I chose 32 out of 57 based on the key, cracking this DES is going to tough.  (The reason it slows you down a touch is that for each key you try you need to use a different set of s-boxes, I know it's only a vector, but it sure makes random search a pain).  Several marijuana legalization groups have had their mailing lists confiscated when people were charged with drug use/sales.  It's not a crime to be a member of a legalization org, *but* you will be watched.  It really is important to write a letter to every official you personally vote for to explain *why* your privacy is being destroyed by the "cripple chip".  Amazingly enough they do listen when they get *enough* mail.  The Doonsbery jokes about NRA postcards are real, and the IMI (Illinois Marijuana Initiative) has grown to the point where we *are* seeing some changes.  It's pretty clear that all the hullabaloo is really about the implimentation decision being made behind our backs.  As Vesselin points out, this was common practice in communist regimes (and may be again depending on how the vote goes).  But just as criminals have guns and "law abiding" citizens don't, and criminals like me have marijuana and "law abiding" subjects don't, criminals like me will have secure crypto while "law abiding" robots don't.  PGP is nice, but as time goes on we all can do better.  And to save our hides we will.  Someone posted an excerpt from Machiavelli.  He's my favorite dude. 500 years ago he saw clearly how people *are*, and tried to explain that to "princes" who wanted people to *obey*.  One section not quoted (I've got "The Prince" at home, so I'll just paraphrase :) ) had to do with conquring a free city.  The only way is to *completly destroy* it.  Failing that, you must appoint locals to high positions and accept the people's customs.  Even after 100 years of oppression, a people will remember their heratige and rise up to overthrow the oppresive government.  And he gave an example.  And that was 300 years *before* Thomas Jefferson.  There were questions about watching traffic.  Only *interesting* traffic is watched: stuff that goes overseas and comes back; stuff with keywords like marijauana, cryptography, NSA;  certain individuals who are known subversives, etc.  It is easy enough to store all that traffic.  So if you know how to be *subversive* i.e. how to be unseen, it's pretty easy to go unnoticed for a long time.  The stronger your crypto system and the less you're noticed, the better your chances of developing an organization which can diseminate truth to the masses.  Which gets me to the thread about a "public encrypted conference". That's just silly.  The first thing the feds do is send in an infiltrator (like Dave S.) and they know what you're doing.  It will be fun for teenagers and college students, but for the real world it's pretty pointless.  Crypto is useful for more things than hiding where you get your marijuana.  Guns, drugs and crypto do have some commonality: there are people in government who want you to *obey* their rules.  As Lundquist says in alt.drugs "Live free or don't".  Machiavelli pointed out that's just how most people actually live, inspite of appearences to the contrary. It's true that the decision to shove the clipper (not the same thing as Intergraph's!!!) down our throats violates the principles of what the U.S. was founded on, but the government is full of idiotic robots called bureaucrats and there's less to worry about than one might think.  Only really innocent (read naive) subjects of the U.S. will be hurt by this, the rest of us *criminals* will live in secure freedom. de Toqueville pointed out 150+ years ago that the tyranny of the majority will be mitigated by the mediocrity of the government.  And given what I see government officials doing where I work (Argonne National Lab.) the level of stupidity makes Dave S. look smart.  Patience, persistence, truth,		work: dvader@hemp-imi.hep.anl.gov Dr. mike				home: mrosing@igc.org  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.2