In article <1993Apr18.192508.12442@isc-br.isc-br.com>, steveh@thor.isc-br.com (Steve Hendricks) writes: |> In article <1993Apr8.200326.27560@infonode.ingr.com> albeaj@jima.b17d.ingr.com (Jim Albea) writes: |> >In article <1993Mar24.235606.15959@isc-br.isc-br.com>, steveh@thor.isc-br.com (Steve Hendricks) writes:  |> >|> >> Steve proposes a system of checking what other nations are in to |> >|> >> as criteria for what our government should try.  |> >|> > I counter that the limits of the constitution might be a better |> >|> > place to check. |>  |> >|> Gee, Jim, if you'll check the Constitution you'll find "in order to... |> >|> promote the general welfare...do ordain and establish this Constitution..." |> >|> I'm surprised you missed it.  It's right there in the first paragraph.  I |> >|> would have thought you would have made it at least through the preamble. |> > |> >You almost got it right, and it was a good try, but you should follow your |> >own advice.  The PREAMBLE to the CONSTITUTION does read as you have quoted |> >but let us not forget that after all it is only the preamble.  It is not |> >a binding part of the Constitution and carries no weight in the law.  That  |> >poor tortured paragraph has got to be one of the most unfortunate passages  |> >in the English language - witness the legions of blowhards like yourself who |> >think those vague flowery phrases are part of the law of the land.  Do you |> >really believe that a politician only has to give lip service to "promoting |> >the general welfare" to be within the limits of the constitution? |>  |> Sorry, buddy, but some other "blowhards" managed to include the "general |> welfare" in another portion of the constitution. |>  |> Article I Section 8: "The Congress shall have the power to lay and collect |> taxes...to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and GENERAL |> WELFARE of the United States..." |>  |> I guess they wanted to make sure everyone understood they meant what they |> said in the preamble. |>  |> >Just to make sure you've got the point, let's do a little experiment.  What |> >if the constitution read as follows? |> >Preamble: We the people, to promote the general Welfare, do ordain |> >          and establish this Constitution for the United States of |> >          America. |> >Constitution:  The Federal Government shall have one function and one |> >               function only - to provide for the defense of the nation. |> >The government would not then have two functions: defense and Welfare.   |>  |> But since it explicitly includes both the general welfare and defense |> in Article I, Section 8, I guess you'll grant that botha are constitutional |> functions.  Right?  Steve I'm glad to see that you abandoned the preamble thing.  What; did you do a word search to find Welfare somewhere else in the constitution?  [my comments and paraphrases in brackets]  Article I Section 8:  [in some ways the guts of the constitution]  The Congress shall have the Power:  1. To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises,         to pay the Debts [indebtedness as defined in the document]        and provide for the common Defence [Defence as precisely defined]        and general Welfare [as defined through the document, mostly in ways                            [that limit the government.]          of the United States; [but the above taxes shall be uniform through-                                [out the U.S.]      [so far the congress has been given the power to collect taxes uniformly]      [ then ... ]  2.  To borrow Money [...] 3.  To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, [interstate and Indian tribes] 4.  To [do uniform Naturalization and Bankruptcies] 5.  To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and [etc.] 6.  To [punish counterfeiters] 7.  To establish Post Offices and post Roads 8.  To [provide patents and copyrights] 9.  To constitute Tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court; 10. To define and punish Piracies and [etc.] 11. To declare War, [and etc.] 12. To raise and support Armies,[but for no longer than two years at a stretch] 13. To provide and maintain a Navy, [notice no time limit on this one] 14. To [make the rules for the army and navy] 15. To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws [etc.] 16. To provide for [training of the army except for some state stuff] 17. To exercise exclusive Legislation [in D.C] 18. To make all Laws [necessary to execute the foregoing "Powers"].  Your original instinct was right.  Looking to other nations for precedents that support an expansive liberal agenda is much easier than looking to the slim pickins found in the constitution.