note: i am not the original poster, i am just answering because i think this is important.  In article <May.5.02.50.17.1993.28624@athos.rutgers.edu> db7n+@andrew.cmu.edu (D. Andrew Byler) writes: >revdak@netcom.com writes: [evil result of human sinfulness, rather than the will of God] >In a certain sense yes.  But in the sense that God allows evil to >happen, when obviously (He being God) He could have not had it happen, >does in a certain sense mean that He wills it to happen.  God does not >condone evil, but instead uses it for good, as you say, however, what >God desires, must be seperated from what actually happens.  For example, >"God desires that all should be saved" (1 Timothy 2.4), however, it is >quite obvious that nowhere near all are saved.  Was God's will thwarted? > No, because His will cannot be escaped, for even when it appears that >it is your will doing something, it is actually the will of God which by >His grace has disposed us to do as He wishes.  So we come to the age old >question, why does evil occur?  To which we must answer that God allows >evil to occur, though He does not condone it, so that His ultimate plan >may be brought to sucess.  Personally, I suggest reading the parts of >the Summa Theologica of St. Thomas that deal with the knowledge of God >to get a good grasp on this whole idea.  whoo.  i'm going to have to be very careful with my language here.  i think God is voluntarily giving up his omniscience in this world so that we can decide on our own where we go -- free will.  in this sense God allows evil to occur, and in this sense can be "held responsible" as my chaplain says.  however, his will is, of course, that all be saved.  he's not going to save us "by himself" -- we have to take a step in his direction before he will save us.  read that last sentence carefully -- i'm not saying we save ourselves.  i'm saying we have to ACCEPT our salvation.  i do not believe in predestination -- it would appear from what you say further down that you do.    [stuff deleted] >I am not saying that anyone deserves punishment more than someone else. >I am simply pointing out that God could be using the Serbians and >Croatians as instruments of His punishment, as he did with the >Israelites against the Cannanites.  ok -- i have trouble with that, but i guess that's one of those things that can't be resolved by argument.  i accept your interpretation.  [more deleted] >>The issue is not questioning why God has made the world in the way God >>so chooses, it is whether _I_ am discerning the world in the way God >>intends it.  The debate is about whether we should not oppose the Serbians >>in their "ethnic cleansing" because they might be "doing the will of God." > >And I said Christians should not be participants in such wars and >slaughters. That does not mitigate the fact that God allows this evil to >continue, for He is patient and willing that none should perish, so He >waits for those whom He has foreknown to turn to Him from their evil. 			     ^^^^^^^^^ this is what indicates to me that you may believe in predestination. am i correct?  i do not believe in predestination -- i believe we all choose whether or not we will accept God's gift of salvation to us. again, fundamental difference which can't really be resolved.  [yet more deleted] >I am not saying that the evil befalling the Bosnians is justified by >their guilt.  I am saying that it is possible that God is punishing them >in this way. In no way is this evil justified, bu that does not mean >that God cannot use evil to further His purposes.  I am not accusing the >Bosnians, though they may very well be guilty of great sins, but that is >up to God to judge.  We are all defendants when the time comes for our >judgement by God.  Let us all sincerely hope and pray that we will have >Jesus Christ as our advocate at that judgement.  yes, it is up to God to judge.  but he will only mete out that punishment at the last judgement.  as for now, evil can be done by human beings that is NOT God's will -- and the best we can do is see taht some good comes out of it somehow.  the thing that most worries me about the "it is the will of God" argument is that this will convince people that we should not STOP the rape and killing when i think that it is most christ-like to do just that.  if jesus stopped the stoning of an adulterous woman (perhaps this is not a good parallel, but i'm going to go with it anyway), why should we not stop the murder and violation of people who may (or may not) be more innocent?  >Andy Byler