In article <Apr.8.00.57.49.1993.28271@athos.rutgers.edu> marka@travis.csd.harris.com (Mark Ashley) writes: >In article <Apr.7.01.55.33.1993.22762@athos.rutgers.edu> kevin@pictel.pictel.com (Kevin Davis) writes: >>Many Christians believe in abstinence, but in a moment will be overcome >>by desire.  We all compromise and rationalize poor choices (sin).  Last >>week I was guilty of anger, jealousy, and whole mess of other stuff, >>yet I am forgiven and not condemned to suffer with AIDs.  To even >>suggest that AIDS is "deserved" is ludicrous. > >Some rules are made because at some point man is too stupid >to know better. Yet, eventually man learns. But only after >getting a lesson from experience.  Yes, it's important to realize that all actions have consequences, and that "rules" were made for our own good.  But to suggest that a *disease* is a *punishment* for certain types of sin I think is  taking things much too far.  If we got some kind of mouth disease for lying, would any of us have mouths left?  What if we developed blindness every time we lusted after someone or something?  I dare say all of us would be walking into walls. > >I wonder if AIDS would be a problem now if people didn't get >involved in deviant sexual behaviour. Certainly, people who >received tainted blood are not to blame. But it just goes >to show that all mankind is affected by the actions of a few.  Yes, sin can have terrible consequences, but we need to be *real* careful when saying that the consequences are a *punishment* for  sin.  The Jews of Jesus's time believed that all sickness was the result of a sin.  Then Jesus healed a blind man and said that man was blind to show the glory of God, not because of sin.  If AIDS, or any other STD is a *punishment" for sexual sin, what do we do with  diseases like cancer, or multiple sclerosis, which are just as debilitating and terrible as AIDS, yet are not usually linked to a specific behavior or lifestyle? > >In addition, IMHO forgiveness is not the end of things. >There is still the matter of atonement. Is it AIDS ? >I don't know.  Atonement is *extremely* important, but I think you've missed the mark about as far as you can by suggesting that AIDS is an atonement for sin. The atonement for sin is JESUS CHRIST - period.  This is the central message of the Gospel.  A perfect sacrifice was required for our sins, and was made in the Lamb of God.  His sacrifice atoned for *all* of our sins, past present and future.  God does not require pennance for our sins, nor does he require us to come up with our own atonement.  He has graciously already done that for us.  To suggest that AIDS or  some other consequence is an atonement for sins is literally spitting on the sacrifice that Jesus made.  In case you couldn't tell, I get *extremely* angry and upset when I see things like this.  Instead of rationalizing our own fears and phobias, we need to be reaching out to people with AIDS and other socially unacceptable diseases.  Whether they got the disease through their own actions or not is irrelevant.  They still need Jesus Christ, no more and no less than we do.  I've said this before, but I think it's a good analogy.  People with AIDS are modern-day lepers.  Jesus healed many lepers.  He can also heal people with AIDS, maybe not on this earth, but in an ultimate sense.  My next-door neighbor has AIDS. She has recently come to have a much deeper and more committed  relationship with God.  Her theology isn't what I would want it to be, but God's grace covers her.  The amazing thing is that she is gaining weight (she's had the disease for over 2 years) and her health is excellent apart from occassional skin rashes and such.  She attributes her improvement in her health to God's intervention in her life.  Who are we to suggest that her disease is some kind of punishment?  It seems to me that God is being glorified through her disease.  Paul Overstreet, the country singer, has a good song title that I  think applies to all of us - But for the Grace of God, There Go I (or something like that).  May we all experience and accept God's grace. > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Mark Ashley                        |DISCLAIMER: The opinions expressed >marka@gcx1.ssd.csd.harris.com      |here are my own; they do not >..!uunet!gcx1!marka               |reflect the opinion or policies >The Lost Los Angelino              |of Harris Corporation. >-------------------------------------------------------------------------   =============================================================================== Paul Conditt		Internet: conditt@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu Applied Research	Phone:	  (512) 835-3422   FAX: (512) 835-3416/3259   Laboratories		Fedex:	  10000 Burnet Road, Austin, Texas 78758-4423 University of Texas	Postal:	  P.O. Box 8029, Austin, Texas 78713-8029 Austin, Texas <----- the most wonderful place in Texas to live