In article <1993Apr03.044958.15500@microsoft.com> bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver) writes: >understand what the words mean.  Someone who inflicts pain on themselves >because they enjoy it is a masochist. > >And, no:  there is nothing wrong with it.  You may think it's gross or >bizarre (and I might agree with you here), but my/your disgust is not equal  >to it being morally wrong.  /(hudson) /If someone inflicts pain on themselves, whether they enjoy it or not, they /are hurting themselves.  They may be permanently damaging their body.  That is true.  It is also none of your business.    Some people may also reason that by reading the bible and being a Xtian you are permanently damaging your brain.  By your logic, it would be OK for them to come into your home, take away your bible, and send you off to "re-education camps" to save your mind from ruin.  Are you ready for that?        /(hudson) /And why is there nothing wrong with it?  Because you say so?  Who gave you /the authority to say that, and set the standard for morality?  Why?  Because:  I am a living, thinking person able to make choices for myself. I do not "need" you to show me what you think is the way; I have observed too many errors in your thinking already to trust you to make up the rules for me.  Because: I set the standard for my *own* morality, and I permit you to do  the same for yourself.  I also do not try to force you to accept my rules.  Because: Simply because you don't like what other people are doing doesn't give you the right to stop it, Hudson.  We are all aware that you would like for  everyone to be like you.  However, it is obnoxious, arrogant thinking like  yours, the "I-know-I'm-morally-right-so-I-can-force-it-on-you" bullshit  that has brought us religious wars, pogroms against Jews, gay-bashing, and other atrocities by other people who, like you, "knew" they were morally right.      (me) >What is it with you, Hudson?  You think you know better than other people, >so you want to be able to tell them what they can and cannot do to  >themselves?  Who died and made you God?  How come I can't do the same >thing?    /(hudson) /Aren't you?  Aren't you indicating that I should not tell other people what to do?  Aren't you telling me it is wrong for me to do that?   It is not a moral standard that I am presenting you with, Hudson.  It is a key to getting along in life with other people.  It is also a point of respect:  I trust other people to be intelligent enough to make their own choices, and I expect the same to be returned.  You, on the other hand, do not trust them, and want to make the choice for them--whether they like it or not.  It is also a way to avoid an inconsistency:  if you believe that you have  the right to set moral standards for others and interfere in their lives,  then you must, by logic, admit that other people have the same right of  interference in your life.   (Yes, I know; you will say that your religion is correct and tells you that only agents acting in behalf of your religion have the right of interference. However, other people will say that you have misinterpreted the Word of God and that *they* are the actual true believers, and that you are acting on your own authority.  And so it goes).      (hudson) /Who gave /you the authority to set such a moral standard for me to tell me that I  /cannot set a moral standard for others?   You can set all the standards that you want, actually.  But don't be surprised if people don't follow you like rats after the Pied Piper.    At the most basic form, I am not going to LET you tell me what to do; and if necessary, I will beat you to a bloody pulp before I let you actually interfere in my life.