atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Cardinal Ximenez)  wrote:  >  Here's how I talk to non-Christians who are complaining about Hell.  >ME:	"Do you believe you're going to Heaven?" >HIM:	"I don't believe in Heaven." >ME:	"So are you going there?" >HIM:	"If there was a heaven, I would." >ME:	"But since there isn't a Heaven, you're not going there, are you?" >HIM:	"No."  >  The point is that Heaven is based on faith--if you don't believe in heaven, >there's no way you're going to be in it.      Hmmm... people in the americas before the time of Christ, children who die young, etc. ?   >  Of course, the next step is, "I don't believe in Hell either, so why will I >be there?"  It seems to me that Hell is eternal death and seperation from God.      But of course, the popular conception of hell (correct or incorrect) is something akin to eternal perpetuation of consciousness, at the very least.   >Most atheists do believe that when they die they will die forever, and never >see God--so they do, in fact, believe that they're going to Hell.     I think a good number of atheists believe there is nothing beyond  bodily death, but it is simply an abuse of language to say they believe they're going to hell. They believe they're going to _die_. Understand that you've turned Hell into a verb. Using the same logic, it also follows that all animals are 'going to Hell.' Are you sure this is what you want to say? (presumably animals don't have the opportunity to get to heaven, but this still doesn't change the fact that they're going to Hell (die a final death))     I don't claim to know whether or not there is an afterlife of _some_ sort, but if Hell is as you described (final death, and not eternal perpetuation of consciousness) it will be true that there will never be a moment when I am aware of my non-existence.  (assuming I 'go to Hell' and not to Heaven) In other words, I'll never know I'm dead. Hmmm...    >  Hell doesn't have to be worse than earth to be Hell--because it's eternal,      Ever hear people say of a loved one who was ill, and has died:  "At least she's not suffering any more; She's in Heaven now." ?      Consider the following statement:  "At least she's not suffering any more; She's in Hell now."      The above statement sounds odd, but according to your definition of Hell,  it would be a true statement. The person in Hell would not be suffering.  Granted, they wouldn't be *anything* (wouldn't be having any conscious experience whatsoever).       You say Hell (death) is eternal. However, this loses its meaning  to a dead person. And to me, it seems that the threat of some sort  of eternal punishment only makes sense/has force if one expects to be conscious throughout this eternity.       Many atheists believe that the thirst for an afterlife is simply the product of propaganda ("Friend, do you want the FREE gift of e-ternal life?" It's my understanding that the early jews did not believe in an afterlife. Can anyone back me up on this?) combined with the survival instinct all animals share. The difference is we have consciousness, and once we get the idea of eternal life drilled into our brains, we then desire a sort of super-survival.     >and it's a lot worse than Heaven.  That's the only comparison that matters.      That would depend on what Heaven is like. If God is a King, and  an eternity in heaven consists of giving thanks and praise to the King, I might opt for Hell. I read a lovely account of a missionary trying to convert Eskimos to Christianity in the book _The Illusion of Immortality_ by Corliss Lamont. The missionary started to speak about Heaven.  "Are there seals in heaven? Will we be able to go hunting?" asked an Eskimo. The missionary said no. The group of Eskimos then said something to the effect of, "Well what good is your Heaven if there's no hunting? Scram." I highly recommend the above book (IOI) to anyone who wants an account of the other side of the immortality coin (that there is no  immortality).    >Alan Terlep				    "Incestuous vituperousness" >Oakland University, Rochester, MI			 >atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu				   --Melissa Eggertsen >Rushing in where angels fear to tread.		      Pax,