leavitt@cs.umd.edu (Mr. Bill) writes:  >mjs@sys.uea.ac.uk (Mike Sixsmith) writes: >mjs>Also, IMHO, telling newbies about countersteering is, er, counter-productive >mjs>cos it just confuses them. I rode around quite happily for 10 years  >mjs>knowing nothing about countersteering. I cannot say I ride any differently >mjs>now that I know about it.  >I interpret this to mean that you're representative of every other >motorcyclist in the world, eh Mike?  Rather presumptive of you!  IMHO = in my humble opinion!!  >leavitt@cs.umd.edu (Mr. Bill) writes: >leavitt>The time to learn countersteering techniques is when you are first >leavitt>starting to learn, before you develop any bad habits.  I rode for >leavitt>five years before taking my first course (MSF ERC) and learning >leavitt>about how to countersteer.  It's now eight years later, and I *still* >leavitt>have to consciously tell myself "Don't steer, COUNTERsteer!"  Old >leavitt>habits die hard, and bad habits even harder.  >mjs>Sorry Bill, but this is complete bollocks. You learned how to countersteer  >mjs>the first time you rode the bike, it's natural and intuitive.   >Sorry Mike, I'm not going to kick over the "can you _not_ countersteer >over 5mph?" stone.  That one's been kicked around enough.  For the sake of >argument, I'll concede that it's countersteering (sake of argument only).  >mjs>MSF did not teach you *how* to countersteer, it only told you what >mjs>you were already doing.  >And there's no value in that?    I didn't say there was no value - all I said was that it is very confusing to newbies.   > There's a BIG difference in: 1) knowing >what's happening and how to make it do it, especially in the extreme >case of an emergency swerve, and: 2) just letting the bike do whatever >it does to make itself turn.  Once I knew precisely what was happening >and how to make it do it abruptly and on command, my emergency avoidance >abilities improved tenfold, not to mention a big improvement in my normal >cornering ability.  I am much more proficient "knowing" how to countersteer >the motorcycle rather than letting the motorcycle steer itself.  That is, >when I *remember* to take cognitive command of the bike rather than letting >it run itself through the corners.  Whereupon I return to my original >comment - better to learn what's happening right from the start and how >to take charge of it, rather than developing the bad habit of merely going >along for the ride.  Bill, you are kidding yourself here. Firstly, motorcycles do not steer themselves - only the rider can do that. Secondly, it is the adhesion of the tyre on the road, the suspension geometry  and the ground clearance of the  motorcycle which dictate how quickly you can swerve to avoid obstacles, and not the knowledge of physics between the rider's ears. Are you seriously suggesting that countersteering knowledge enables you to corner faster or more competentlY than you could manage otherwise??   >Mike, I'm extremely gratified for you that you have such a natural >affinity and prowess for motorcycling that formal training was a total >waste of time for you (assuming your total "training" hasn't come from >simply from reading rec.motorcycles).  However, 90%+ of the motorcyclists >I've discussed formal rider education with have regarded the experience >as overwhelmingly positive.  This regardless of the amount of experience >they brought into the course (ranging from 10 minutes to 10+ years).  Formal training in this country (as far as I am aware) does not include countersteering theory.  I found out about countersteering about six years ago, from a physics lecturer who was also a motorcyclist. I didn't believe him at first when he said I steered my bike to the right to make it turn left, but I went out and analysed closely what I was doing, and realized he was  right! It's an interesting bit of knowledge, and I've had a lot of fun since then telling others about it, who were at first as sceptical as I was. But that's all it is - an interesting bit of knowledge, and to claim that it is essential for all bikers to know it, or that you can corner faster or better as a result, is absurd.  Formal training is in my view absolutely essential if you're going to be able to ride a bike properly and safely. But by including countersteering theory in newbie courses we are confusing people unnecessarily, right at the time when there are *far* more important matters for them to learn. And that was my original point.