Okay, I'll bite. I should probably leave this alone, but what the heck...  In article <1993Apr14.124301.422@sun0.urz.uni-heidelberg.de>,  gsmith@lauren.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de (Gene W. Smith) writes: >In article <TT3R2B5w165w@brewich.hou.tx.us> popec@brewich.hou.tx.us >(Pope Charles) writes: > >>Rhoemer was the name of the guy responsible for much of the uniforms,  >>and props used by the early Nazis in their rallies and such. > >The name is Roehm, not Rhoemer.  And Hitler does claim that he came up >with the Swastika business.  But didn't he credit the actual flag design to a party member - some dentist or other? I believe he gives such credit in Mein Kampf.  >>He was killed in an early Nazi purge. He and many of his associates >>were flaming homosexuals well know also for their flamboyant orgies. > >I have been trying to find if there is any actual evidence for this >common assertion recently.  Postings to such groups as soc.history and >soc.culture.german has not uncovered any net.experts who could provide >any.   Well, I'm no expert, but all of the histories of Nazi Germany assert this. They make reference to several scandals that occurred long before "the night of the long knives". The impression that I got was that homosexuality in portions of the SA was common knowledge. Also, a book (by a homosexual author whose name escapes me at the moment) called "Homosexuals in History" asserts that Roehm and Heines were homosexuals, as well as others in Roehm's SA circle.  >All the books say that Roehm and his associate, Edmund Heines, >were homosexual.  I have been able to find nothing beyond that, and >suspect this to be a sort of historical urban legend.   Well, you're the one who is in Germany. If you don't believe the history books, look up the primary sources yourself. Those of us outside of Germany do not have access to these. You do. It seems to me that there were plenty of documented instances - several scandals, the fact that on the "knight of the long knives" several SA members (including Heines) were found sleeping together, etc. Also I believe some people were complaining about the SA's homosexual activities (seducing young boys, etc). The histories that I've  read make a very convincing case. None of this sounds like urban legend to me.   >(Irving, a >notoriously unreliable historian, says that Funk, the Nazi finance >minister, was homosexual.  He gives no sources.)  I know next to nothing about Irving and nothing about Funk. What precisely do you know, that would contradict all of the other history books that I have read concerning the existence of homosexual Nazis? Are you trying to say that  all historians are taking part in an anti-homosexual smear? What about  homosexual writers who agree with the official history? Don't you think they  would have found out the truth by now if Roehm and Heines were not homosexuals? I would think they would want to disassociate homosexuality from Nazism. No one  should use any connection between the two to bash homosexuals in any case.   >I challenge anyone to document this claim.  If you are going to challenge *all* historians on this point (not just Irving), then the burden of proof is on you. Track down the references. Find out where the stories originate from. Again, you are the one in Germany, close to archival material - most people on the net are not.  >I *have* found a great >deal of evidence that there were many flaming heterosexuals among the >Nazis.  This seems to include all of the worst ones--Hitler, Himmler, >Goebbels, Goering, Heydrich, Eichmann, and many more.  Eh? What is your agenda here? To prove that the Nazis were heterosexuals, so that you can bash heterosexuals? Does it bother you that some of the Nazis might have been homosexuals? Does this make all homosexuals bad if this is true? Of course not. And what about bisexuals? Are they half-Nazis?  I don't know why it would be so difficult to believe that some Nazis were homosexuals. The German officer corps before WW1, for instance, was notorious for its homosexuality. There were numerous scandals which rocked the German govt. during the late 19th and early 20th century. Many of the Kaiser's friends were prosecuted - the Kaiser was no homosexual, but the Germany army had a long tradition of tolerating homosexuality, going far back into Prussian history - back to Frederick the Great at least, who was himself a homosexual. Roehm was a  product of this Prussian officer tradition, and the old German army (like the English public school system), being a well known center of homosexuality, would have been quite willing to overlook Roehm's homosexuality.  In addition, some Nazis complained of homosexuality in the Hitler Youth. The Hitler Youth swallowed up all pre-Nazi youth groups, and some of the various  pre-war Vandervogel, Bund, and Volkish youth groups were known to promote  homoerotic ideals and friendship, and in many cases, homosexuality itself. So  it seems to me not unlikely that there were plenty of homosexual Nazis,  regardless of the official Nazi dogmas concerning the "evils" of homosexuality. Why should this suprise anyone? Homosexuality has always existed, in all  societies - it would be most unusual if the Nazis were an exception.  No, I don't have any sources for you, as I think the only kind of proof you will accept would be citations from archival material, and I do not have access  to these. Nor do I intend to reread every book on the Nazis and on modern homosexuality that I have ever read - I don't have the time. Nothing is stopping you, however, from chasing down those sources. Until you prove otherwise, though, I will stick with the established histories.