/ iftccu:talk.politics.guns / mikey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Strider) /  8:51 pm  Apr 12, 1993 /  >I think most of us would rather be held up with a knife than with a gun, >but HOW THE HELL ARE YOU GOING TO MANAGE THAT?  You still haven't offered  I've been watching this knife verses gun bit for a while now, (even contributed a few comments) but this stuff "I'd rather face a knife than a gun" has GOT to come from ignorance!  I used to think pretty much the same thing, then I got 'educated.'  People do not as a rule understand how deadly knives can be, or how quickly you can be killed with one.  Most people don't understand that it takes less than an inch of penetration in some areas to cause quick (within a minute or so) death.  The death rates from handguns and knives are within a few percentage points of each other.  Many people not realizing how deadly knives are 'try their luck' and thus more get injured by knives.  A gun is deadly only in a single direction and it's only advantage is that it is a remote control weapon.  A contact weapon such as a knife controls a spherical area 7 to 10 feet in diameter.  Most people have never seen knife wounds, aside from slicing a finger by accident.  From 21 feet or so, a knife is very nearly an even match for a holstered gun in experienced hands, even if the knife wielder has only moderate skill.  From inside 10 feet or so, a knife is a match for a DRAWN gun.  A knife is utterly silent, it never jams and never runs out of ammunition.  It is limited only by the speed, dexterity skill and ability of it's wielder.  Criminals in general are young, fast and strong.  It's interesting to note that the patterned slashing attacks used by many martial artists remarkably resemble the wild uncontrolled slashing attacks of novices.  I've talked to several well trained martial artists.  They have unanimously agreed that if they ever go up against a knife they simply plan on being cut, hopefully not as bad as the attacker.  Practicing with firearms requires facilities and equipment.  Practicing with knives requires only a small area and something to simulate a knife, say a popsicle stick or tooth brush.  Criminals practice their knife attacks in prison.  If you have not trained against knives with a firearm and do not realize these facts the first inkling you will have that something is wrong is the knife ripping through your throat, or in the case of an experienced attacker, parts of your body falling off onto the ground.  A 60 year old man with arthritis can close that 7 yard distance and gut you in about one and a half seconds.  Dennis Tueller with a broken leg in a walking cast managed it in two.  I've seen people close that distance and strike in 1 second.  I'm old, over weight and slow.  I can do it in 1.3 seconds.  I've seen morgue footage of people killed with edged weapons that you would not believe.  (How about a single stab wound to the chest with a TABLE FORK!  In this case the attacker used the HANDLE, not the pointed end.)  Add to this the 'fact' that hand gun 'stopping' power is largely a myth. Except in the case of a central nervous system shot, or a round that destroys the skeletal structure, it takes anywhere from 3 to twelve seconds for a bullet wound to 'take effect.'  This is true of even heart shots.  There is the case of the police woman in L.A., the first recorded survivor of a .357 shot to the heart.  That lady not only killed her attacker, but chased him down to do it!  All four of her shots, fired after SHE had been shot, struck the perp.  Atta girl!  The bullet entered her on a downward angle, went through the apex of her heart, down through the diaphragm, clipped her liver and destroyed her spleen.  It then exited her back leaving a tennis ball sized hole.  She died about six times on the operating table, but was out of the hospital in 15 days and was back on full duty in eight months!  She was off duty at the time and not wearing her vest.  She was on her way home so happened to have her gun.  No, she doesn't think civilians should have the same rights.  Sigh.  The moral of the story is that even if you DO manage to shoot a knife attacker, you'd better be planning on doing some dodging.  A good alternative is to shoot for and break the pelvis.  People can often walk (a little) on broken legs but a broken pelvis will nearly always anchor them.  Many firearms schools recommend pelvis shots against contact weapons.  The target is as large as the traditional 'center of mass' and is more reliable to STOP somebody with a contact weapon, assuming a caliber powerful enough to 'do the job.'  Hot .38's on up will usually do this.  Remember folks, the idea isn't to 'take em with you' but for you to live and them to fail, whatever the consequences for them.  This the reason 'killing them' isn't our goal, or in many cases even good enough to keep us alive.  I don't want to face a violent attack of any sort.  Knowing what I now know, I can't rightly say I'd rather face a knife than an gun.  It would have to depend on the attacker, and if I could pick and choose, I WOULDN'T BE THERE.  This is really the bottom line.  Criminals do not fear the law.  Criminals do not fear the weapon.  They fear the citizen behind the weapon that has shown the resolution and determination to do whatever it takes.