"Aaron" == Aaron Bryce Cardenas <aaronc@athena.mit.edu> writes:  Aaron> Colossians 2:11-12 "In him you were also circumcised, in the Aaron> putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done Aaron> by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised Aaron> with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him Aaron> from the dead."  Aaron> In baptism, we are raised to a new life in Christ (Romans 6:4) Aaron> through a personal faith in the power of God.  Our parent's Aaron> faith cannot do this.  Do infants have faith?  Let's look at Aaron> what the Bible has to say about it.  Yes, let do.  Try:   "And if anyone causes one of these little ones *who believes in me* to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck."  Mark 9:42  "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.  I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."  The Colossians passage does not make faith a requirement for baptism.  It merely says that in baptism we are born again, regenerated, and resurrected through faith.  In the case of an infant I would say that baptism works faith in the heart of the infant--through the power of the word.  The Colossians passage does make baptism a spiritual circumcision. Circumcision was the means by which a male infant was made a part of God's covenant with Israel.  It was commanded to be performed on the eighth day.  The early church understood this, and even debated whether baptism had to be performed on the eighth day, or if it could in fact be done earlier.  Aaron> Romans 10:16-17 "But not all the Israelites accepted the good Aaron> news.  For Isaiah says, 'Lord, who has believed our message?' Aaron> Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the Aaron> message is heard through the word of Christ."  Aaron> So then we receive God's gift of faith to us as we hear the Aaron> message of the gospel.    And the gospel is surely preached at any infant's (or adult's) baptism.  Indeed, in a very real sense, the sacraments are the Gospel made tangible.  Aaron> Faith is a possible response to hearing Aaron> God's word preached.  Kids are not yet spiritually, Aaron> intellectually, or emotionally mature enough to respond to Aaron> God's word.    How do you know they are not yet mature enough to have faith? Do you know this on the basis of God's Word, or from your own reason?  Faith is also described as a gift from God, Ephesians 2:8,9.  He gives faith to infants just as he gives it to adults, through the power of the gospel, Romans 1:6.  Aaron> If you read all of Ezekiel 18, you will see that God doesn't Aaron> hold us guilty for anyone else's sins.  So we can have no Aaron> original guilt from Adam.  Here you show that you just don't understand original sin-- you are arguing against a straw man. Maybe you've been talking to Catholics too much.  I don't know.  But original sin does not consist of God's imputation of Adam's guilt to us.  It consists of our inheritance of Adam's sinful nature.  It is actual sin.  See for example, the Augsburg Confession, Article II, and the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, Article II, and, for extra credit, John Knox's `The Scots confession', Article III.  Aaron> Now then that we have a little more background as to why Aaron> original sin is not Biblical, let's look at some of the Aaron> scriptures used to support it.  Aaron> Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through Aaron> one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to Aaron> all men, because all sinned--"   Ask yourself this question.  "Do infants ever die?"  Then ask yourself, "If infant baptism is not valid, then where was the Christian Church during all the centuries when almost all  of the baptisms were performed on infants?  Were Luther, Melancthon, Calvin, Zwingli, Hus, Knox, Andrae, and Chemnitz Christians?   Aaron> Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time Aaron> my mother conceived me."  Aaron> This whole Psalm is a wonderful example of how we should humble Aaron> ourselves before God in repentance for sinning.  David himself Aaron> was a man after God's own heart and wrote the Psalm after Aaron> committing adultry with Bathsheba and murdering her husband. Aaron> All that David is saying here is that he can't remember a time Aaron> when he wasn't sinful.  He is humbling himself before God by Aaron> confessing his sinfulness.  His saying that he was sinful at Aaron> birth is a hyperbole.  The Bible, being inspired by God, isn't Aaron> limited to a literal interpetation, but also uses figures of Aaron> speech as did Jesus (John 16:25).  For another example of Aaron> hyperbole, see Luke 14:26.  Who are you to say what is literal and what is not?  Is a literal interpretation manifestly absurd in Psalm 51 by reason of direct contradiction with a clear passage from the Word of God?  You might also compare Genesis 8:21, "The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart, `Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood...."  Aaron> We see Aaron> that he did grow and become wiser in Luke 2:40 and 2:52.  The Aaron> implication is that Jesus did wrong things as a child before he Aaron> knew to choose right over wrong.  You are a long way from proving this (rather monstrous) assertion. All you can say is that Jesus grew in wisdom and in stature.  A conclusion that he did wrong as a child is based on an extrapolation of reason, not on a direct revelation in Scripture.