Isaac Kuo (saackuo@spam.berkeley.edu) writes:  #In article <93109.231733ISSCCK@BYUVM.BITNET> "Casper C. Knies" <ISSCCK@BYUVM#.B #>Gedaliah Friedenberg (friedenb@maple.egr.msu.edu) writes: #>As a Latter-day Saint, I found John's statement *not at all* ludicrous... #> #>Please allow me to explain myself.  In 1838, the governor of Missouri, #>governor Boggs, issued his so-called "Mormon extermination order."  The #>only crime ("illegal activity") the Latter-day Saints had committed, was #>their religious affiliation, their anti-slave stance (Missouri still #>allowed slave practices), and their growing numbers/influence in Missouri. #> #>I guess the Mormons "got what they deserved," because they refused to bow #>to the will of (corrupt and evil) secular authorities. This "disobedience" #>brought upon them persecution, murder, and finally forced expulsion from #>their lands and settlements... # #It is significant to remember that these secular positions were held by #"average" people, and that at the time, almost all Americans were pretty #homogeonously Christian. It was largely the mainstream Christian's disgust #at such practices as polygamy which resulted in their irrational hatred.  True, but that is exactly the "problem": the Mormon extermination order was issued not just by a Christian, it was ALLOWED under the Constitution of the United States, which was instituted precisely to prevent incidents like this "order" from occurring in the first place...  As I indicated in an earlier posting, your "irrational hatred" is clearly evidenced by individuals like Robert Weiss (who could have been Gov. Boggs' Lieutenant; he would have fitted right in, drewling et al), and seems a modern-day occurrence, based on results (slander, persecution, misrepresentation, lies, denying Mormons representation in their own user group, etc. etc.  In intent and purpose, what really has changed?  #The situation is not entirely different today.  Many irrational feelings #and beliefs are justified through religion.  I don't think most of them #are started because of religion, but religion certainly helps justify and #perpetuate prejudices and practices by providing a neat justification #which discourages critical thought.  True, as evidenced by numerous examples, as I am sure you're aware.  #>In any regard, Mormon history alone indicates that secular authorities (and #>I don't even discuss how Uthan's were suckered into allowing part of their #>lands in becoming nerve-gas and atomic bomb testing grounds...) is far from #>being trusted or righteous.  Have things really changed for the better?  I #>may be a born cynic, but I have NO reason whatsoever that such has been the #>case. In the early 1980s, I believe, the late President Kimball (lds church #>leader) strongly protested federal attempts to locate the MX-"Peace Keeper" #>missile maze from being built in Utah (yet another "inspired" decision from #secular authorities).  Fortunately, his opposition was influential enough #for the feds to back off. # #Do you mean that the "secular authorities" are some continuous group of #people with the common and uninterrupted goal of harrassing/eradicating the #Mormons?  Do you honestly believe that the main reason for using Utah for #nuclear testing etc.. was to "get them thar Mormons"?  And what about the #majority of Uthan's who aren't Mormons?  You seem to be searching for enemy  ^^^^^^^^ (Correction: the majority of Utahn's ARE Mormon (60-70% I believe, up to a  100% in many cities and settlements throughout the Western states.)  #conspiracies.  It is paranoid to believe that everything that affects you #badly must have been done primarily for that purpose.  What I mean is that secular authorities are to be watched, as we believe that Satan has been given some power and dominion over the earth to divert truth, judgment, and justice.  In addition, we believe that the adversary has power to influence the unjust and idolatrous (greed for money would be a good example) in order to bring about persecution, war, oppression, and evil combinations.  As an intelligent being, don't you suppose that the destroyer would yield his influence foremost on those with political power?  As far as Utah is concerned, what I pointed out were some horrible examples of environmental nightmares imposed upon by secular authorities, which have brought death, disease, (i.e. the "downwinders") and environmental contami- nation.  I am hardly "paranoid," I am just not "expecting" too much from a secular government that may not share our values and faith, and which indeed (as Gov. Boggs et al.) may be out to harm and destroy us.  As a matter of fact, prophecies in my church indicate that in future years, (global) persecution against Mormons will so increase in intensity and scope, that (paraphrasing) "all those who wish to escape persecution and murder must flee to Zion."  Zion (the "pure in heart") will be re-established in those days, and it AIN'T our current secular authorities who will rule over it...  #>...  David Koresh did NOT pose a great #>threat to the federal authorities or the security of this nation, and with #>John, I too wonder who or what's next... # #I personally feel that we should try to stop anyone who is a threat to the #life of even one person.  Sure, he did not pose a threat to the security of #this nation.  But he did pose a threat to the lives of his followers.  That #much is definite.  Hmmm.  "definite" by whom?  --Until such has been established beyond reason- able doubt, this alleged "threat" may have been less than the "threat" imposed upon him and his followers by the BATF and FBI...  #>Who killed who?  What constitutional right did the ATF officers have to #>invade upon private land and to force themselves into the compound? #>What REALLY caused the "murder" of the little children?  Could it be that #>the ATF/FBI presence has any bearing upon the events?  How would you #>interpret the Mt. Masada events?  --Blame the Jews?  (What the heck did #>the Romans do there anyway?  What business did the ATF/FBI has in Waco, #>Texas???)  The Branch Davidians NEVER posed any threat to society. # #This is like asking who REALLY caused the deaths of the Israeli Olympic #team in 1976?  In that case, the police botched the job as well.  But to #lay a heavier burden on them than the terrorists would be a terrible #mistake.  I think the same sort of reasoning applies in this case. #Certainly, if David Koresh chose any peaceful option, the ATF and FBI #would have complied.  The responsibility is more his than the authorities.  Come now, at issue is in how much the authorities escalated an otherwise peaceful stand-off: "let's get it over with, and "force" David Koresh to come out???"  --By gassing them???  Were they naive, or what?  They played right into the hands of an apocalyptic-thinking individual (he had prepared his people for this eventuality for years), and not *one* firetruck or plan was in place to deal with this scenario???  I feel that the authorities had "some" responsibility to protect their own citizens, even if they were religious zealots, and guilty of ... not paying a $200 gun license??? (Has the BATF become an extension of the local tax-collectors?)  #>David Koresh, no doubt, will be described as the "evil" guy (by the #>executioners), while the actions of all those "valiant and brave" officers # #Characterizing the ATF/FBI as executioners is inaccurate and unfair.  In #order to be an executioner, the least one must have done is have the intent #to kill.  Que?? --Intrusion into private property with semi's, loaded with life ammunition, isn't that implicit "intent (or at least "prepared") to kill"? I ask you, would the BATF warrant stand up in a civil court of justice? I do not mind if criminals (such as dangerous drug lords) are brought to justice, but escalating events to the point of allowing to, if not compli- city with, the destruction of a people?  #-- #*Isaac Kuo (isaackuo@math.berkeley.edu)                   *        _____ #*"How lucky you English are to find the toilet so amusing.* ______//_o_\\__ #* For us, it is a mundane and functional item.  For you,  *(==(/___________ #* the basis of an entire culture!" Manfred von Richtofen  * \==\/         \