In article <1r15l1INNh91@ctron-news.ctron.com>, smith@ctron.com (Lawrence C Smith) writes:  |>>The paranoid assertion that the BATF fired first in an unprovoked |>>assault assumes that the BATF were on a death wish. Had they |>>expected the B-D to be anything other than peacefull citizens who |>>would accept a search authorized by a court they would have turned up |>>in a tank and broken the door down on day one. |> |>This is stupid.  That is no paranoid assertion, it is testamony from surviving |>witnesses, and the BATF _has_ no tanks, nor am I aware of either the BATF _or_ |>the FBI using any until yesterday.  When they use maximum force they do just |>what they did that first day that got four officers killed.  These surviving witnesses being members of which cult pray tell ??   |>>The stupidity was the attempt to serve a warant on the place by |>>ludicrously underarmed and unprotected police.  |> |>"Underarmed"?  You flabberghast me, they were loaded for bear and every |>picture shows them wearing bullet-proof vests!  They were using concussion |>grenades and full-auto weapons, what was missing low-yield tac-nukes?  This |>is a transparent attempt to retcon a justification for the ridiculous amount |>of force used, both initially and yesterday.  You should be ashamed.  We were having a discussion about whether Bush would have done anything differently. On the basis of Panama, Grenada, Tripoli, Kewait etc we  decided that Bush would have asked for a surgical airstrike  or used a  cruise missile, some people suggested that he would have used the nuke warhead cruise, others pointed out that he would be too cheap to use 'em.  What was missing? Armoured vehicles!    |>>If anyone on the net cares to suggest a sure fire method of bringing |>>the murderes of four police officers to justice perhaps we could |>>hear it. |> |>They _had_ a sure-fire method: keep them bottled up and talk them to death or |>surrender without giving him justification for some looney-tune religious |>stunt. |> |>Phil, I've been reading your postings for months and I'm convinced that you |>will back anything, no matter how damaging it may be to yours or anyone |>else's rights if you think it will hurt people you don't like.  It's people |>with that attitude that set up the preconditions for the Holocaust, a process |>that is in place _now_ in this country, even if the tattered, pitiful remains |>of the Constitution is slowing its progress.  This isn't a Libertarian issue, |>others may argue that line, but from a strictly Constitutional view of a |>democratic gov't, what the FBI and BATF did was wrong, wrong, wrong, even if |>their _reasons_ for trying to arrest Koresh were 100% right.  _Anything_ that |>leads to the deaths of 17 children, if nothing else touches your stoney |>heart, is _wrong_ no matter who pushed the button.  For God's sake, man, get |>your morality back.  The person who murdered 17 children was Koresh. He kept them there and  brought about their deaths deliberately.  You may consider that I am a complete bastard and a not very nice chap. Thats quite true. I don't pretend to be. Being nice is what amateurs try to do. If you want to talk politics you are talking hard decisions such as whether the lives of the troops should be risked attempting to rescue the children. Anyone who has held the office of President of the United States since FDR has held the threat that if the USA or its allies were to be threatened then the USA would risk nuclear  Holocaust in order to protect freedom. Beleive it or not, that is not the sort of threat that nice chaps make. Do they have a gun nutters section of the US version of CND by any chance?   There are cases where society has to be protected from madmen such as Koresh or Hitler. If it were not for the consideration of the 17 children in there the question of the tactics to be used would not be a matter of anything but academic significance. It is not for the govt to prevent people from commiting mass suicide.  The latest reports are that cult members were shot attempting to leave the compound by Koresh loyalists during the fire. If proven that would entail the final nail in the coffin of those who want to promote Koresh as some sort of role model or hero.   I need hardly add that it is Koresh that has created the Holocaust in this case by the deliberate arson of the ranch appocalypse.