In article <C62oJM.CJH@News.MR.Net> tmplee@TIS.COM (Theodore M.P. Lee) writes: >In article <tenneyC62HqH.6s1@netcom.com> Glenn S. Tenney, >tenney@netcom.com writes: >> of interest.  I understand that on 29 April, Mr. Markey will be holding >a >> hearing on the questions raised in this letter.  There may also be a >follow-on >> hearing dedicated to the clipper chip, but that's not definite. > >Glenn, > >Thanks for posting that.  I was surprised to notice, however, that one >question I might have expected to be asked was not:  "Are all forms of >strong encryption other than the Clipper to be made illegal?"  Speaking >of which, is anyone aware of whether that question *has* been asked of >any knowledgeable or official spokesperson for the government?  I have >not yet seen it mentioned in any of a dozen places it might have been >reported, but I could have easily missed it.  Please let us know if you get a solid answer to the question of legality of other strong cryptosystems.   So far any references I have seen have been weasel-words ("more plans in the future, etc"), but nothing that could be taken as a "NO (strong crypto will NOT be outlawed)".  I have heard (not verified) that the Crime Bill before Congress has language that either requires escrow of keys, or that will regard all systems 'unapproved' for public use, like strong cryptosystems not trivially broken by the Govt, or without escrowed keys which one cannot readily change (read: use being only permitted by folks with 'special' connections, or government agencies) as either 'terrorist tools' or 'drug dealers tools'.  Not outlawed SPECIFICALLY but by added Civil Forfeiture powers, and clever wording, EFFECTIVELY outlawed for all intents and purposes.  Now, for some idle speculation ... for those who don't care, hit 'n' now.  Crypto being EFFECTIVELY outlawed could be done without SPECIFICALLY outlawing ANY class of crypto systems.  For example, a crowbar, hammers, screwdrivers, and such can be regarded as 'burglar tools' pretty much at the whim of the authorities, based primarily on the individual possessing them in the car, etc. not being in a trade that makes routine use of these tools.  In a like manner, one who has no 'legitimate need' (gov't definition) for strong crypto software or systems, and is caught using them, might find themselves in possession of 'terrorist tools'. In other words, if one is not working for a corporation with extremely sensitive commercial data that warrants (in the Fed's opinion) strong security, or a government agency, and securing only work-related data, not personal data, one will most likely be nailed on this if discoverd. A personal desire for 'privacy' most certainly will not be regarded as a 'legitimate NEED':  "Why do you want such strong security, especially from 'legitimate law enforcement'? An individual with 'legitimate' endeavors would not be so concerned - government is not in the business of revealing your personal secrets to the public... so you must be trying to conceal or planning to conceal some unlawful or criminal activity...  DO YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO HIDE, HMMMM?" I expect that initially there will be some people selected either at random, or who happen to have been 'troublemakers' for the purposes of 'making an example' for those who think the Feds are not SERIOUS about this... (mega ':-('s)  One asking about a 'right' to privacy will probably get a response that there is no constitutional right for privacy spelled out AS SUCH (an argument used in the abortion debate):  "You do NOT have a right to have security that 'Legitimate Law Enforcement cannot break'" (as suggested in the Clipper Press Release).  This, in a nutshell, is what I find so extremely frightening.  Not only for crypto systems, as in this case, but for the precident it will set, laying the groundwork for future erosions of privacy (escrow of both safe-deposit box keys - 'master' keys or combinations for privately owned safes, and so on.  WHY NOT?)...  I cannot think of a better way to make an 'end-run' around those 'inconvenient' parts of the US Constitution.  A law cannot be easily declared unconstitutional, if it there IS NO SPECIFIC LAW.  It would simply be a minor extension of the RICO statutes or WoD policies. A simple policy decision, just like so many of the gun regulations are mainly BATF policy decisions...  The Conversation of the Fed agents would go something like:  "We are gonna seize your home, your computers, your car, your bank account, (you don't have to undress and give us yer clothes, unless you have a floppy in yer pocket) because they are all connected with your acquisition, transport, and use of 'terrorist tools' and/or 'drug dealers tools' - part of the WoD or against terrorism, ya unnerstand... no decent American Subject would be against these noble causes...".  "Note we are not accusing YOU of any wrong-doing ... we are only saying your HOME, COMPUTERS, CAR, BANK ASSETS are connected with wrong-doing SOMEHOW - they housed, transported, and funded these 'terrorist tools'. Only a civil matter ...  <heh-heh> ... We had this 'tip'...<grin>".  "Therefore, the Constitutional Protection on Individual rights do NOT apply - we are 'arresting' the tainted PROPERTY... not YOU...<evil grin>".  "If you wish to deposit a BOND, hire some attorneys, and go to court to PROVE the innocence of this property (that they are not 'terrorist tools' and again to prove they are not also 'drug dealers tools'), go ahead, we have no problem with that!  'Course, with your bank assets seized, no car, computer, or home, (probably no job, too) and your less-than-limitless resources, you might run into some minor practical difficulties <grin>...".  THAT is what has me going so damned ballistic...  It is EXACTLY how the logic goes when someone gives a 'tip' that your home has been used to store DRUGS...  Note no trace of drugs need to be found on the property... only some bozo who will say 'yup.  I stored stuff in that dude's house...' (probably to get out of a 10 year sentence for dealing).  Much more cost effective to let him walk, to bust another day, and hit the jackpot with YOUR assets...  Ob Disclaimer (of course)...  Ok, note that I am not a lawyer, and can only base these speculations on what I have read/heard/been told regarding past Civil Forfeiture cases, and how they are used to augment the budgets of assorted agencies, or to get 'cooperation' of folks who just want to be left alone, or who do not wish to be put in a risky situation (especially in areas where they are denied either meaningful police protection, AND the means to be able to even pretend to defend themselves, as is quite common back East, like NJ, MA, NYC, Wa DC, or out West in CA).  These people have the choice of cowering under the government boot, or cowering under threats of pissed off drug dealing gang-bangers... helpless in either case... All behind some dude who drops a dime on you for his gain, or behind the Feds wanting to 'make an example'...  Civil Forfeiture being the 'hook'.  Point is, are these speculations way out of line, or are they all too typical, and if so, does the extension to crypto and just about anything that the Feds regard as 'inconvenient' seem reasonable?  And if not why not (what are our guarantees, besides the government promises)?  NONE?  >Ted Lee >Trusted Information System, Inc.                        tmplee@tis.com >PO Box 1718  >Minnetonka, MN 55345