In article <93111.074840LIBRBA@BYUVM.BITNET>, LIBRBA@BYUVM.BITNET writes...  Rick Anderson writes:  ra>   Robert, you keep making references to "orthodox" belief, and saying ra> things like "it is held that..." (cf. "Kermit" thread).  On what ra> exact body of theology are you drawing for what you call "orthodox?"       "Orthodox" is a compound word. It comes from 'orthos' (straight, true,       right) and from 'doxa' (opinion, doctrine, teaching). I use orthodox to       refer to 'right teaching.' Right teaching is derived from letting God       speak to us through the Bible. This can be from reading simple truths       in the Scriptures and by using the Bible to interpret the Bible.  ra> Who is that "holds that" Luke meant what you said he meant?       I think that it is apparent from reading the Scriptures that are      pertinent.       Luke 23:43 records Christ's promise to the repentant thief who hung on      an adjacent cross: "Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in      paradise." But was it not until later that Christ rose from the dead      and ascended to heaven? If Christ Himself was not in heaven until      Sunday, how could the repentant thief have been there with Him? The      answer lies in the location of "paradise" when Jesus died.       Apparently paradise was not exalted to heaven until Easter Day.       Jesus refers to it in the middle of the story of the rich man and       Lazarus as "Abraham's Bosom," to which the godly beggar Lazarus was      carried by the angels after his decease (Luke 16:19-31).  Thus      "Abraham's Bosom" referred to the place where the souls of the redeemed      waited till the day of Christ's Resurrection.       It was not yet lifted to heaven but it may well have been a section of       hades (Hebrew: Sheol), reserved for believers who had died in the faith      but would not be admitted into the glorious presence of God in heaven      until the price of redemption had actually been paid on Calvary; or      even that none would precede the presence of Jesus back to glory with      the Father.       Doubtless it was the infernal paradise that the souls of Jesus and the      repentant thief repaired after they each died on Friday afternoon. But      on Sunday, after the risen Christ had first appeared to Mary Magdalene      (John 20:17) and her two companions (Matthew 28:9), presumably He then      took up with Him to glory all the inhabitants of infernal paradise      (including Abraham, Lazarus, and the repentant thief). We read in      Ephesians 4:8 concerning Christ: "Ascending on high, He led captivity      captive; He gave gifts unto men." Verse 9 continues: "But what does `He      ascended' mean but that He also descended to the lowest parts of the      earth?" -i.e., to hades. Verse 10 adds: "He who descended is the same      as He who ascended above all the heavens." Presumably He led the whole      band of liberated captives from hades (i.e., the whole population of      preresurrection paradise) up to the glory of heaven.  ra> Whenever your personal interpretation of Biblical passages is ra> challenged, your only response seems to be that one needs merely to ra> "look at the Bible" in order to see the truth, but what of those who ra> see Biblical things differently from you?       I think that this characterization is faulty. Whenever my 'personal       interpretation' is questioned, I usually give a reason.       As for those that see things differently, please, put forward where      there is a valid difference, and we can discuss it.        I seem to be seeing from you the notion that any difference in how one       views the Bible is somehow legitimate, except, or course, for the stuff       that I glean from it. Put forward a contrary view and perhaps we can       have a discussion on that topic. But to decry something that I put       forward, without putting forward something else to discuss, and to       dismiss what I put forward while giving credence to other alleged views      that have yet to be put forward is simply being contentious.  ra> Are we to simply assume that you are the only one who really ra> understands it?       If you believe that something that I have drawn from Scripture is       wrong, then please, show me from Scripture where it is wrong.  Simply       stating that there are other views is not a proof. Show it to me from       Scripture and then we can go on.