In article <1993Apr14.164549.24069@cbnewsi.cb.att.com>, gadfly@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (Gadfly) writes: > In article <15342@optilink.COM>, cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes: # # # And now those "other options" don't exist.  We probably agree on this # # # more than you think--welfare was invented to solve a problem of the # # # 30's, but the poverty is now so much worse, and our economic infra- # # # structure has been so eroded, that it just can't keep up any more. #  # # You mean, since your philosophy took over, the economy has almost # # collapsed. #  # Excuse me, *my* philosophy?  You don't have any idea what *my* philosophy # is.  The American economy has had its ups and downs through a number of # prevailing economic philosophies.  But then, economics is hardly a science.  In my lifetime, your philosophy -- socialism masquerading as a liberal welfare state -- has been in ascendancy.  # No, I mean exactly what I wrote--the welfare system of the New Deal is # wholly inadequate to cope with the current state of affairs.  Absolutely.  So the response of socialists is take us even further into socialism.  # # # # # (2) Whether or not the fathers work # # # # # is not germane to single mothers. #   # # # # Very true.  But the promotion of casual sexuality is something that # # # # plays a part in the single mother problem. #  # # # I'll buy that--and there's lots of reasons for it, extremely far down on # # # the list being the flash-in-the-pan media attention a bunch of middle- # # # class dropouts got for their philosophy and experimentation.   #  # # Flash-in-the-pan?  No, your subculture has utterly dominated the # # TV and movie industries for two decades now. #  # *My* subculture?  My, we're getting personal.  The only subculture I see # dominating the TV and movie industries is *money*.  If you'll buy it, # they'll sell it.  And as recent movements to boycott TV advertisers have # shown, they're *very* sensitive about what sells.  Whatever happened to # personal responsibility, anyway?  Or am I personally responsible for # the decline in that, too?  To the extent that people have been encouraged to NOT be responsible for themselves, yes.  # # # # Come on.  You and I both know that the major problem of this society # # # # today isn't a lack of employment, it's a lack of people willing to work. #  # # # Huh???  Tell that to the single mother I know who was laid off from # # # her $10/hour job at a hospital and now works 2 full-time minimum- # # # wage jobs to barely be able to support herself and her kid.  *Barely.* # # # Hey, she's too proud to go on public assistance, but the only jobs # # # she can find are menial and with no benefits.  And no career path # # # either--they find excuses to lay people off and hire new ones rather # # # than give raises and perks.  And why not?  It's a lot cheaper. #  # # Oddly enough, all the unskilled or semiskilled people I know manage # # to find employment almost immediately.  Maybe she needs to move to a # # cheaper part of the country, where jobs are plentiful, and the cost # # of living is lower. #  # The west side of Chicago is about as cheap as it gets--squalor city. # Tell me about all these places where it's cheap to live and jobs are # abundant--I'll pass them on.  Sonoma County.  # You live in a strange and wondrous place, sir.  Inexpensive housing,  Not exactly cheap, but not Los Angeles, either.  # lots of employment, and utterly surrounded by socialists.  Well, I suppose # that's the sort of environment that would attract socialists, or at least # not dissuade them.  No, it's that areas with a lot of wealthy breed socialists -- all the spoiled rich kids, feeling guilty about their wealth.  But not guilty enough to give it away -- they just look for politicians to take MY more limited wealth away.  # # # I see a lot of people willing--nay, eager--to work.  What I don't see # # # is a system that makes it at all feasible to do so.  It's not just # # # welfare, which nobody enjoys, but there just aren't the jobs any more. # # # When the US was expanding industrial capacity there was always a mill # # # to go work in--skills to learn, a future.  Now there's only McDonalds. #  # # Odd.  Not the experience of anyone I know.  Just the opposite. #  # In California???  Yup.  # # # Mr. Cramer, I was there:  Hippiedom was a very low-budget operation. # # # Our drugs were cheap. #  # # The money I was referring to was Aid to Families with Druggie  # # Cohabitators (AFDC). #  # Well, I doubt that much of this goes to drugs--there isn't much left after # buying food, and there is very little in the first place.  Sure, you read # about such cases now and then, but that's what makes them news.  Show me # your statistics about AFDC abuse.  I can tell you that relatives I have known, the drugs came first, the food was secondary.  # Ken Perlow   ***** *****