In article <May.11.02.38.47.1993.28306@athos.rutgers.edu> Fil.Sapienza@med.umich.edu (Fil Sapienza) writes: >In article <May.7.01.09.44.1993.14556@athos.rutgers.edu> maxwell c muir, >muirm@argon.gas.organpipe.uug.arizona.edu writes: >>of Faith (if you want to know, I feel that faith is intellectually >>dishonest).  > >I'd appreciate some support for this statement.  I'm not sure >it really makes sense to me.  I define faith as "belief, in the abscense(sp?) of evidence". I also include in "evidence" past experiences. Because I have no past experience in a god actually having an effect on my life and because I have never seen evidence for any god beyond what can be explained without the neccessity of a god or which is more convincing than the many fictional works I have read (And other reasons), I do not believe in any god(s). From what I have seen, some people reconcile this lack of evidence by using faith. It is faith in that sense (the only way I _currently_ understand the word "faith") that I find intellectually dishonest.  >>The ambiguity of religious beliefs, an unwillingness to take >>Pascal's Wager,  > >I've heard this frequently - what exactly is Pascal's wager?  Pascal's wager goes something like this: Premise #1: Either there is or there isn't a God. Premise #2: If God exists, He wants us to believe and will damn us for not believing. Premise #3: If God does not exist, then belief in God doesn't matter because death is death, anyway. Conclusion: Belief in God is superior to non-belief because non-belief damns us to eternal punishment if we are wrong, while belief in God only wastes a little time in life if we are wrong.  Sound pretty straightforward and is logically sound. The problem is, Premise #1 presupposes 1:1 odds between belief and non-belief. This is flat out wrong, because of the sheer number of religions out there and the fact that, for the most part, the religions are mutually exclusive. I have heard theists referred to as "99% atheists" because they believe in their god (or gods) to be the _one_ god (or set of gods). The consequence of this is "what if I pick the wrong god?" Suddenly, the odds don't look so good because picking the wrong god or wrong doctrines of a god still leaves you with the possibility of being wrong and being damned to another god's version of hell.  >>	Do I sound "broken" to you? > >I don't know.  You point out that your mother's treatment upset you, >and see inconsistencies in various religions.  I'm not sure if that >constitutes broken-ness or not.   It certainly consititutes  >disillusionment.  I don't see how "disillusionment" enters into it. You see, I presented my mother's treatment of me to show the cause of my questioning my atheism, a questioning which continues to this day. I had already been an atheist for five years before having any contact with my mother's version of Christianity. If anything, I had become somewhat disillusioned with atheism (uh, oh, I thought, What if there *is* a God?). Yes, in a way, I have also become disillusioned by many religions, simply because I had thought at one time that they had all the answers, if I only found the right one. I'm still looking, but each time I look in a different place, I become a little stronger in my attitude (belief, if you will, no faith, though, it's based on the evidence of past experience) that I'll never find a religion which has all the answers. Sorta like looking for Easter eggs. The more time it takes you to find the next one, the more convinced you become that you may already have found all the eggs you're going to find. Someone else mentioned that critisism isn't going to make me think any more highly of Christians. I have a contrary position: Constructive critisism will likely improve my attitude towards Christians. Abusive critisism will turn me off. No accusations to you, Mr. Sapienza. I merely slipped that into this post because I forgot to reply to that one.  >Filipp Sapienza >Department of Technology Services >University of Michigan Hospitals - Surgery >Fil.Sapienza@med.umich.edu  Muppets and Garlic Toast forever.  Max (Bob) Muir