In article <20APR199306173611@utarlg.uta.edu> b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (stephen) writes: >In article <sandvik-190493201048@sandvik-kent.apple.com>,  >sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes... ... >>So are you happy now when 70+ people, including innocent kids, >>died today?  	It's amazing how everyone automatically blames one side or the other. 	One thing for sure:  Koresh will have no chance to defend himself 	against the statements (lacking in fact or COurt sponsored verification) 	made  by agents who participated in the situation that killed him.  		I don't know they murdered him; I also don't know 		that the Branch Davidians set a fire and suicidede.  		It is SICK of BATF or FBI spokepeople to make such 		comments in advance of forensic pathology.  	Stephen:  thank you.  God speed.    >No. Kinda numb. I thought something like this was going to happen >over a week ago. One of the things that's been obvious from the  	Yah.  >start is that when there are two armed camps, neither of which  >yields, it's usually get slaughtered -- when any little spark  >sets it off. > >Which is why Koresh and company shouldn't have stockpiled weapons, >and why the BATF shouldn't have come primed for a raid.   	BINGO.  Am I the only one  to notice: 	a)	No peaceful attempt to serve a warrant. 	b)	Six months to develop a scene and six days to end it? 	c)	.... ah God:  			25 children 			at least 64 adults 			plus 6 at the beginning 			and more BATF agents  			all dead.  > >Painful point #1: > >	If the Davidians fired first -- why were the BATF >	on the roof -- rather than taking cover?  	Has anyone asked themselves these questions:  	1)  Have you seen the ENTIRE video sequences taken during the 	  opening rounds?  I seem to recall missing several key parts: 		a)  The first five minutes of day one; only the shooting 		  part comes out. 		b)  What happened to the Feds video units?  You mean they do 		  not carry helmet cams?  Wonder why not? 	2)   How is it you can have camera crews with live transmission 	  video present and NOT have an uninterrupted record?  		a)  You realize the units carry ittle bitty 8mm backups? 			That hold 90 minutes per unit?  And there are 			twounits on the professional handhelds (so no 			tape turnover gaps)? 		b)  Until all views are seen, it is premature to point 			fingers in either direction.  	As you well point out, Stephen.  > >	Anyone (BATF, BD, X-BD, Other) could have touched it off, >	by mistake or maliciously?  	More on this below.  > >	Once Koresh was shot... (disregarding his being a religious >	leader, and apocalyptically obsessed) most likely the people >	inside just went on drill. Just like the BATF outside. > >Is the lesson that automatic responses are very hazardous last resort  >measures?  	Yes.  But it is so hard toremain human under the full 	pressure of hazard, game playing, and life.  > > >Painful point #2: > >	Either side could have backed off, to help defuse the >	situation.  We see the problem constantly here on the >	net with flaming.   > >Ego problems.  Nuff said.   	More to the point:  when someone dies (almost like it was intended 	that way), both sides will kill to maintain their innocence -- 		a contradiction in terms.  > > >Painful point #3: > >	It doesn't help to take sides in such a situation. Just >	adds fuel to the fire. Better is to let it burn out on >	it's own.   	True.  Usually I pick the unpopular side and point out 	from the evidence seen what might have alternatively happened.  > >Best example I can think of is Christ with the tax coin. He didn't  >have one (and so didn't sanction the Roman authority unduly). When  >they showed it to him, he noted that it was Caesar's minting, and >so said give it to him, (no waste of time). And then he got back to >more worthwhile concerns -- God's will.   	This requires someone interested in God's Will.  Please note 	that the outstanding _overt_ problem in this country today 	is one where the Government:  		wants Caesar's coin to pay off the debt.  > >The anti-tax movement of today, and the anti-ssan-as-i.d. groups, >would do well to note who the issuing authority is. Ditto for those  	Yes:  The AMerican People.  Not the Federal Government. 	ANd if it is not spent towards that end, _no_one_ deserves 	the coin.   >made in the image of God.  	Yah.  Fewpeople hear the contradiction:  		Money 		made 		in the image 		of God  > >No need to stir things up in ever larger revo-revo-revolution, as >governments turn over, and over, and over.   	I wish you were wrong.  Many pundits are saying 3 years. 	The onyl good thing to come out of my divorce (and my 	exposure to the Damned (pardon me) American Divorce Attorney 	is:  		I have no money left to lose to taxes or inflation.  > > >painful point #4: > >	For many, this was just entertainment.  >	 >	Thumbs-up. Thumbs-down.  > >	Just another thriller like "Terminator 2," >	or a good-old ball game. > >Is the lesson that we've become jaded to media reality?  	25 children dead.  If anyone thinks blaming Koresh -- or the BATF 	helps this any at all, is sick.  and wrong.  		The reason you can tell that the BATF may not be entirely 		straight on this is that the leaders at press conferences 		havew made ANY comments about even the POSSIBILITY that 		Koresh or his followers caused this.  		The BATF agentss are more concerned with their repuations 		and morals ("not my fault, Koresh did it!") than they 		are with:  			25 dead children.  	Same goes for Koresh & his followers - who are all (mostly) dead.  > > > >Painful point #5: > >       	LA burned. The Davidians burned. In one case society has >	abandoned the people -- which has returned to a frontier. >	In the other -- the outskirts were bumping against the >	suburbs.  > >Is the lesson that what's lawful in different areas of society, >depends more on conditions than laws?  	More on power and favoritism.  (My personal opinion).  	Look to history:  whenever privilege has replaced whatever 	token of objective law and justice a society has had,  		Hitlerrs have followed.  > > >If we don't learn-the-lessons, or at least make an honest effort, >the next conflagration will no doubt be closer to home.  > >Rather than putting out fires, aren't there much more important >concerns for us to work on??  	You do your name sake proud, Stephen. 	Its hard, but please keep on keeping on: 		each voice in the wilderness now will 		save a generation unborn from horror  > >>Kent >>....who can't 'cheers' today exactly. > >What keeps me from being a bomb-thrower is my loving God (as irra- >tional as that is for so many). One direct benefit is being able to  >keep things in perspective, KS.  	The day I _need_ a gun or abomb to protect myself in this 	society is the day that society is already beyond redemption  		and that aint' redundant, if you have any Christian 		belief aytall.  	... and the day that I cannot peacefully enjoin others in the 	act that Thoreau called Civil Disobedience to rectify the 	wrongs that my society practises, without undue harm or 	punishment befalling me, is the day that society has ceased to 	be a human society, and become a society of animals.  		We are _very_ cclose to that.  > >Such as who hurts more -- the ones who died, or the loved ones who  >are left? Besides the lessons. It's also time for many to grieve. >Including those who've lost their faith in others, or in God. > >I'm learning to be patient, and let things heal. God willing.  	Six years fighting an unjust COurt issue:  still struggling to be 	patient.  For those who like contrary questions:  	NB:  I was not there.  I am not a Branch Davidian nor a     law 	official hater.  I do hate liars or the six letter variety of same. 	The official side has its advocates already; lets balance the 	equation and asj a few questions on the other side, for the sake 	of an old saw the BATF abd FBI seem to want to bypass:  		innocent until proven guilty. 	not 		innocent until presumed guilty.  	1)  Where are the video tapes from the tanks?  ALL of them.  		Don't tell me they do not exist.  They are standard 		equipment.  	2)  So you think Koresh fired the place, because of the explosion?  		a)  Tear gas comes with an aerosol to spread it.  This 		  aerosol is DELIBERATELY made to be as non-flammable 		  as possible.  It is as non-flammable as possible.  			.... gotcha!  		  ... when in isolation from other substances.  		  WHy was a pipe deliveryu system used rather than remote 		  launchers?  WHy did the FBI not announce "this window, 		  blown in plus tear gas, five minutes; then the wall come 		  down", and maintain a left to right sequence?  		b)  Most aerosols also have a secondary compound, that when 		  mixed in, becomes a VERY flammable (and difficult to trace) 		  suspension, with a VERY special property:  exposure to 		  brief eruptions of high heat (muzzle blasts) or long 		  exposure to low heat (matches, a stove) will NOT tend 		  to ignite.  			What other chemicals come up in the forensics? 			Who else will be allowed to test the site?  		c)  After a few minutes to hours (ifdesired, the combnation 		  rate can be controlled as desired), the mixture can be made 		  to become veryignitable onb exposure to a temperature 		  above a certain point (a tracer round) for a certain 		  heat quantity (a small explosive charge) or for a length 		  of time (start a wall fire and wait).  			Check your military records; look at the tapes. 			Why were tanks (large capacity delivey systems), 			tear gas (why not somnorifics?), and now (why 			the hurry. was there still a comm channel open 			to the outside?).  			Do you see any trace of fire coming BACK to the 			compound in the videos?  ALL the videos?  Which ones 			are missing?  	Do I sound paranoid?  Maybe.  Am I? Probably not. 	You trust the FBI and BATF  to render judgement? 		IN advance of a Court?  God help us. 			(For we are surely not helping ourselves). 	You trut the Federal Gevernment to give us a clean slate?  		You are 4.3 trillion (admitted!) down and counting. 		Look again.  	Did it happen that way?  I do not know.  I was not there. 		AND IT SHOULD WAIT FOR A COURT TO DECIDE. 	But will that happen?  89 people will NOT have the chance 		to tell their side as the BATF leader was, on camera.  No one wins.  Except:  more force next time.  	Listen to your hearts, people.  Thanx again Stephen. > >   | >-- J -- >   | >   | stephen >  roy andrew crabtree