In article Fo2@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU, pmy@vivaldi.acc.virginia.edu (Pete Yadlowsky) writes:  <Moral Driver distinctions deleted>  >>In this case, the Driver does not evolve but simply Is. There would >>probably not be any manifestation in an infant  because the Moral >>Code has not been learnt yet (ie. the object upon which the Driver >>acts upon).  > >Without manifestation, though, how can the Driver be detected? For >all purposes it seems not to exist until Moral Coding begins. >Actually, I agree with your notion of a Driver, except that I think >it's not moral but pre- (and super-)moral. It is, as I mentioned >earlier in this thread, a primal sense of connection, a pre- and >post-natal umbilical the awareness of which is expressed in a >partial, fragmented way that accomodates (and forms, in return) the >language and customs of a given culture. This halting, pidgin-english >expression is, I think, what we come to call 'morality'.   Compare the Driver to an urge such as Jealousy, where there is an urge and an "object". The jealousy does not technically exist until the object is apparent. However, the capacity to be jealous is presumably still there even though it is not detectable.  Your description of the Unbilical took me three passes to understand (!) but I get the gist and I have to tentatively agree. I think our two definitions can sit side by side without too much trouble, though. I haven't attempted to define the reason behind the Moral Driver (only hinted through the essence of each Moral). Your definition hints that animals are also capable of a similar morality - Simians have a similar Social Order to ourselves and it is easy to anthropomorphize with these animals. Is this possible or have I misunderstood?  > >>>>If my suggestion holds true then this is the area where work must be >>>>carried out to prevent a moral deterioration of Society, > >>>What kind of work, exactly? > >>Well, here you have asked the BIG question. [...] >>I have a slight suspicion that you were hoping I would say >>something really contentious in this reply (from your final question). > >No, not at all. I was just wondering if you subscribed to some >particular school of psycho-social thought and rehabilitation, and if >perhaps you had a plan. I'd have been interested to hear it.  >  My p.s. thoughts falls roughly in line with John Stuart Mill and his writings on Utilitarianism. I have no particular plan (except to do my bit - personal ethics AND social work). My opinion (for what it is worth) is that the Authority for each Moral must be increased somehow, and that this will probably take several generations to be effective. I don't think that the list of Morals has changed for Society significantly, though . The Authority element may come from our authority figures and roles models (see Eric Berne and his transactional analysis work [+ Mavis Klein] for references) and this is what gives rise to a deterioration of moral standards in the long term.  I've had some more thoughts on my definitions:  I've was thinking that I should add Moral Character to the list of definitions in order to get a dynamic version of the Moral Nature (ie. the interplay of the Moral Code and associated Authorities). A suitable analogy might be a graphic equaliser on a HiFi system - the Moral Nature being the set of frequencies and the chosen 'amplitudes', and the Moral Character being the spectrum over time.  Conscience is a little more difficult because I can't define it as the reasoning of a person between actions in the context of his Moral Nature because Conscience seems to cut in most of the time unbidden and often unwanted. I think Conscience is manifest when a decision is made at a given time which compromises one's Moral Nature. My Conscience fits in more with Freud's SuperEgo (plus the Moral Driver) with the stimulous being the urges or Freud's Id. The reasoning that I mentioned before is Freud's Ego, I suppose. If the Moral Driver is part of the Id then the reason why Conscience cuts in unbidden is partially explained. The question is "what provides the stimulous to activate the Moral driver?". I think I need some more time with this one.  That's about it for now!  David.  --- On religion: