In article <May.11.02.37.42.1993.28189@athos.rutgers.edu> muirm@argon.gas.organpipe.uug.arizona.edu (maxwell c muir) writes:  [a lot of stuff deleted -- i'm focusing on just one point] >Well, he got me there. I am a strong atheist, because I feel that lack of >evidence, especially about something like an omnipotent being, implies >lack of existence. However, I haven't met the strong atheist yet who said >that nothing could ever persuade him. Call me a "seeker" if you like, I >don't.  >_Weak_ atheism is being ignore here, though. Some atheists simply say "I >don't believe in any god" rather than my position: "I believe that no >god(s) exist." For the weak atheist, the is no atheism to disbelieve, >because they don't actively believe in atheism. (If you think this is >confusing, try figuring out the difference between Protestants and >Methodists from an atheist point of view :).  i'm a little confused about the difference between this "weak atheism", as you put it, and agnosticism.  is agnosticism not believing or necessarily disbelieving in anything, or what is it?  i used to be agnostic (by this definition) -- but if weak atheism includes not necessarily believing in God, then i guess i was one of those.  ???  actually what i have a hard time understanding is people who do not ever decide what they believe.  i am constantly in a state of self-examination, as it would appear many others are as well (including the atheists, of course -- i'd assume that's why they're here!).  i guess some people don't really consider it important to think about the answers to "life, the universe and everything" -- any comment?  just wondering....  >This is another fallacy many theists seem to have, that everyone believes in >something (followed up by "everyone has faith in something"). Guess what? >My atheism ends the moment I'm shown a proof of some god's existence. Is >that really too much to ask?  tough call, as these things seem to be based on faith -- wish i could help you, but i already tried once with someone who was a self-professed agnostic-thinking-of-becoming-a -christian, and it didn't work too well!  especially tough as i'm still mulling over whether or not i believe in miracles (looks like another email to my chaplain is coming up....).  all i can do is wish you the best of luck, and please do post what you find.  >And I told you that I find faith to be intellectually dishonest. Note that >I can only speak for myself. If you find faith to be honest, show me how.  hmm, how so?  i guess i really don't understand.  there are times, of course, when i say to myself "of course i have absolutely no way of knowing that what i believe in is true except the satisfaction and sense of peace i get from it -- which of course could just be psychological".  somehow i live with this anyway -- is this what you mean?  the only "proof" i have is that i believe God spoke to me once -- which could of course be my own imagination.  the odd thing is, though, that if you don't at some point start believing in something, after a while it all gets sort of ridiculous.  maybe it's just a question of where you draw the line.  >I have been unable to reconcile it so far. Maybe that's how I'm "broken"? >I tell you that I have invisible fairies living in my garden and that >you should just take my word for it. If you accept that, you are of a >fundamentally different mind than I and I really would like to know how you >think. All I ask for is proof of the assertion "God exists". Logical or >physical proofs only, please. Then we'll discuss the nature of "God".  i'll only add one question -- have you read pascal?  what did you think of him if you did?  also you may (or may not) be interested by cslewis/ _surprised by joy_.  i'd be interested in knowing what you think of him, no sarcasm at all intended.  (i just say this because one can never know how one's written words will be interpreted.  i am not interested in converting you, since i don't seem to have whatever it would take -- proof -- to do so.  i'm just interested in learning.)  >Muppets and garlic toast forever,  i like this.  >Max (Bob) Muir