In article <sandvik-210493014635@sandvik-kent.apple.com> sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes: >In article <C5tCz8.4z9@rbdc.wsnc.org>, royc@rbdc.wsnc.org (Roy Crabtree) >wrote: >> In article <20APR199306173611@utarlg.uta.edu> b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (stephen) writes: >> >In article <sandvik-190493201048@sandvik-kent.apple.com>,  >> >sandvik@newton.apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes... >> ... >> >>So are you happy now when 70+ people, including innocent kids, >> >>died today? >>  >> 	It's amazing how everyone automatically blames one side or the other. >> 	One thing for sure:  Koresh will have no chance to defend himself >> 	against the statements (lacking in fact or COurt sponsored verification) >> 	made  by agents who participated in the situation that killed him. > >Frankly speaking I don't care who started this whole show. I just  >feel sad about the children that were trapped, and had to die >for a case that didn't have any reason whatsoever. All Mr.  >Koresh could have done would have been to release these 19 >children.   	COuld he?  And the first three that died, when guns ablazing in came 	the BATF and FBI?  	I imagine I would have some trouble giving up my children to 	someone who had just shot -- what -- two of them?  	NB:  It takes two sets of guns in a situation like this.  > >Yes, I put the blame on Koresh and similar fanatical religious >leaders that think more about their cause than about keeping  	Fanatical:  those whowill not tolerate another's way of life 	Religious:  Based on emotional, internal, or otherwise 		lacking in commonly defined _scientific_ basis, 		including legal ones, such as this old saw:  			Innocent untilproven guilty  		not 			Innocent until presumed guilty  	Who is the fanatic?  Note who is dead; this usually bespeaks 	a fair bit for the idea that the OTHER side also had lethal 	weapons, used fatally.  		They are dead:  the children. 			At best Koresh was an asshole and the government 			criminally negligent in its hadni\ling of the case.  			At worst, Koresh and his followers were 				innocent 				not brainwashed 				guilty of illegal arms possession 					(as yet unproven) 				and murderedd 				along with 25 children 			They cannot speak for themselves 			Members of the (surviving, alive, and not burned 				to death) BATF/FBI can, and are 				inappropriately 				to the public eye 				outside the bounds of their legal authorities 					read the charter: 					the Constitution specifies that 					the COURTS convict, while the 					enforcement arm INVESTIGATES, 					and that the evidence involved 					shuld not be disseminated in a 					way to harm or injure a party 					involved prior to that action; 					its called slander or libel 					(even where factually true butthen 					distoted or disseminated with intent 					to harm 				for the purpose of covering their butts  			because the bottom line is: 				they SAID they wanted the kids to get out 					alive 				and theFBI, the BATF, Ms. Reno, the Prez, 					and EVERYBODY ELSE IN THIS  						SICK 						SELFSERVING 						GROUP OF UPRIGHT ANIMALS 					that used to be a freedom loving 					peaceful country called  						America:  look up the name, 						it might surprise you 				has turned the "point the finger of blame" 				on the OTHER guy. 			 				and LET THOSE KIDS DIE.  				Note well:  they lived 51 days; they only 				died when attacked by outside force.  			SPock's World, Diane Duane:  				The spear in the heart of another 				is the spear in your own ....  		ALL of us are responsible.  		Iam; you are.  The question is not whether, but how:  			Guess what:  you get to make up your own mind 			on that.  >children out from the war zone. I'm not ashamed of this statement.  	Who created the war zone?  You should be ashamed of bypassing that. 	It's the same damned (Literally) comment made by the folks in 	the former Yugoslavia to justify Ethnic Cleansing:  		"Gee, they had the guns, all they had to do was surrender".  > >To justify other means does not eliminate the fact that children >died for a cause that they should not have been part of.   	Whose "cause" did they die for?  The one where they lived, 	peacibly, to all known purposes (until proven in COurt, 	folks!), or the Cuase of Righteous Government SafeGuarding  	The Freedom Of The CHildren  		Who are now dead.   	AgainI say:  		I do NOT know who did what 		I was NOT there. 		The FBI leaders show moral SICKness trying to 			convict in the press ahead of schedule 		And you should look over your shoulder,  		becuase if there is anything my ruminations that 		actually  sets onto real fact of what happened  			and I do not know that; I am defending 			people who ahving been burned to death cannot 			speak for themselves  		you may, in 22-5 years, find that the concept in our 		Court system  has gone from  			Due Processss  		to  			Due Profit  		and the BATF come to collect their fair share of the tax 		on the value of your house if you rented it for income  			which is going down now, folks. 			Read Bankruptcy 1995 				Its accurate in figures 				and it bypasses the greedy 					businessman and 					mankers who have 				taken profit from the corruption 				of our govbernment.  			Look to where the money went, folks.  			You  got $10 for medicare that paid a doctor for 			$00.50 worth of medicine.  				This is the customaryprofitmargin 				to businessmen for goernment entitlements.  	Who wll own the land of the cult now?  Note well:  it WAS nonproift, 	religious, and nontaxable.  Large tract of land .... hmmm.  	Use your brains, folks:  it happened Germany, and it can happen 	here. 			4.3 trillion (admitted) and counting.... > >Kent  royc.