In article <1993Apr2.155057.808@batman.bmd.trw.com> jbrown@batman.bmd.trw.com writes: [why do babies get diseases, etc.] >What God did create was life according to a protein code which is >mutable and can evolve.  Without delving into a deep discussion of >creationism vs evolutionism,   Here's the (main) problem. The scenario you outline is reasonably  consistent, but all the evidence that I am familiar with not only does not support it, but indicates something far different. The Earth, by latest estimates, is about 4.6 billion years old, and has had life for about 3.5 billion of those years. Humans have only been around for (at most) about 200,000 years. But, the fossil evidence inidcates that life has been changing and evolving, and, in fact, disease-ridden, long before there were people. (Yes, there are fossils that show signs of disease... mostly bone disorders, of course, but there are some.) Heck, not just fossil evidence, but what we've been able to glean from genetic study shows that disease has been around for a long, long time. If human sin was what brought about disease (at least, indirectly, though necessarily) then how could it exist before humans?  >                             God created the original genetic code >perfect and without flaw.  And without getting sidetracked into >the theological ramifications of the original sin, the main effect >of the so-called original sin for this discussion was to remove >humanity from God's protection since by their choice A&E cut >themselves off from intimate fellowship with God.  In addition, their >sin caused them to come under the dominion of Satan, who then assumed >dominion over the earth... [deletions] >Since humanity was no longer under God's protection but under Satan's >dominion, it was no great feat for Satan to genetically engineer >diseases, both bacterial/viral and genetic.  Although the forces of >natural selection tend to improve the survivability of species, the >degeneration of the genetic code tends to more than offset this.     Uh... I know of many evolutionary biologists, who know more about biology than you claim to, who will strongly disagree with this. There is no evidence that the human genetic code (or any other) 'started off' in perfect condition. It seems to adapt to its envionment, in a collective sense. I'm really curious as to what you mean by 'the degeneration of the genetic code'.  >Human DNA, being more "complex", tends to accumulate errors adversely >affecting our well-being and ability to fight off disease, while the  >simpler DNA of bacteria and viruses tend to become more efficient in  >causing infection and disease.  It is a bad combination.   Umm. Nah, we seem to do a pretty good job of adapting to viruses and bacteria, and they to us. Only a very small percentage of microlife is harmful to humans... and that small percentage seems to be reasonalby constant in size, but the ranks keep changing. For example, bubonic plague used to be a really nasty disease, I'm sure you'll agree. But it still pops up from time to time, even today... and doesn't do as much damage. Part of that is because of better sanitation, but even when people get the disease, the symptoms tend to be less severe than in the past. This seems to be partly because people who were very susceptible died off long ago, and because the really nasty variants 'overgrazed', (forgive the poor terminology, I'm an engineer, not a doctor! :-> ) and died off for lack of nearby hosts.  I could be wrong on this, but from what I gather acne is only a few hundred years old, and used to be nastier, though no killer. It seems to be getting less nasty w/age...  >                                                          Hence >we have newborns that suffer from genetic, viral, and bacterial >diseases/disorders.   Now, wait a minute. I have a question. Humans were created perfect, right? And, you admit that we have an inbuilt abiliy to fight off disease. It seems unlikely that Satan, who's making the diseases, would also gift humans with the means to fight them off. Simpler to make the diseases less lethal, if he wants survivors. As far as I can see, our immune systems, imperfect though they may (presently?) be, must have been built into us by God. I want to be clear on this: are you saying that God was planning ahead for the time when Satan would be in charge by building an immune system that was not, at the time of design, necessary? That is, God made our immune systems ahead of time, knowing that Adam and Eve would sin and their descendents would need to fight off diseases?  >This may be more of a mystical/supernatural explanation than you >are prepared to accept, but God is not responsible for disease. >Even if Satan had nothing to do with the original inception of >disease, evolution by random chance would have produced them since >humanity forsook God's protection.   Here's another puzzle. What, exactly, do you mean by 'perfect' in the phrase, 'created... perfect and without flaw'? To my mind, a 'perfect' system would be incapable of degrading over time. A 'perfect' system that will, without constant intervention, become imperfect is *not* a perfect system. At least, IMHO.  Or is it that God did something like writing a masterpiece novel on a bunch of gum wrappers held together with Elmer's glue? That is, the original genetic 'instructions' were perfect, but were 'written' in inferior materials that had to be carefully tended or would fall apart? If so, why could God not have used better materials?  Was God *incapable* of creating a system that could maintain itself, of did It just choose not to?  [deletions] >In summary, newborns are innocent, but God does not cause their suffering.   My main point, as I said, was that there really isn't any evidence for the explanation you give. (At least, that I'm aware of.) But, I couldn't help making a few nitpicks here and there. :->  Sincerely,