well ignoring valid arguments just doesn't fly we will get you to listen to and either repond to or concede the valid points it's just a matter of time and you guys that much needs to be said in all fairness are waisting a lot of our time with what amounts to one big wp idht clusterf ck what with all the responding to made up strawmen and the quick archiving away difficult postings it's ridiculous and landon is right that we may have to seek wider community input unless a bunch of admins are willing to step in and put and end to this mess everyme