more npov issues this article is pretty sloppy as i think most people can tell i took out the section on first cause as revised by nodem which went beyond just poor style and outright called one side of the debate fallacious which isn't really appropriate in an article on a philosophical topic maybe i went a bit far i just object to statements like the entirety of space time came into existence at some point unless you define this point embedded in a larger space time outside of our own the fallacy comes from implying that both the statements space time is everything and something exists outside of space time are true however i work in computer software and don't do physics although this is really about philosophy so maybe i'm just using the the wrong kind of logic if time is finite then there must be a beginning which is what i think is meant by at some point i don't think the phrase came into existence at some point necessarily implies any metaphysical cause ie thing being 'outside' the universe does it dec utc i wasn't really comfortable with the version that came before it though first cause is a complex topic or at least a lot has been said about it and the previous version of the paragraph was presenting a rather severe dichotomy if someone could write a good article about the first cause debate and maybe link to it from this article that would be good i'm not really qualified to do it also and i haven't made an edit about this i'm uncomfortable as a physicist with the statement that most astronomers hold to scientific determinism while many do and they may be right i can tell you that by far the dominant interpretation of quantum mechanics in physics circles is a nondeterministic one oops forgot to login i'm misterbailey if anyone was wondering you are right to question the most astronomers biti'll put in a qualifier about macroscopic forces i've been working on deterministic system philosophy where i put a bit more about quantum physics and determinism but it is a complex subject i agree that it would be nice if there were a separate article on first causes and i agree that this article is sort of sloppy perhaps subheadings could be a first step to clearing it up dec utc