i'm glad the question has been settle as it has i think the article is better but still needs work on the history i will try to do that although it is not important now you can also see that these beers are not related here that page does list related styles but clearly dortmunder and m rzen are not this page by the way is from the association of german brewers i would like to end on two points the fact that mr daniels is not aware that these two beers are not related is evidence that he violates wp rs i should also point out that this is not an obscure topic but something anyone who knows about german beer would know on a personal level i regret to tell you that i was very insulted by your idea that an american home brewer knows more about my culture than i do an apology would be appreciated