october utc hi tom i understand and you don't have to convince me of the similarities it's just that wp requires citations to reliable sources in this case where the author of a book or a music paper article or a professional website like allmusic has made the connection so those examples above though worthwhile in themselves don't solve the 'citation needed' issue however i'm sure i've seen the mona how soon is now connection made in at least one book on the smiths so let me scout around and see if i can find it take care and tks for stopping by to discuss cheers