thanks mackan for the assist i am not sure i follow all points contested above if anyone's wondering no i did not find the oafishness or general vulgarity of mind displayed on that talk page to be lovable i am not particularly exercised about this and though i think the block was illegitimate i have no plan to pursue the matter further the only statement in this thread that i find objectionable is shell's professed wish to see me take civility more seriously in the future i take civility very seriously shell indeed i believe i take it more seriously than you do i think your careless suggestion to the contrary like the ill considered block itself reflects a slack even indefensible understanding of wp civil wherein the only measure of incivility is the temperature of remarks i am also a little puzzled by your reading of nine or ten identical frat boy beer belches as a commendable effort to keep things light we all have different sensibilities and you're certainly entitled to yours but be aware that here is my attempt to keep things light in the face of obstructionism note that in this case there is a point to the playfulness the weight authority influence and reliability of sources is not contra jayjg a function of their print run jay's response to this lightness was to say again and again that i had strawmanned him while steadfastly refusing to clarify his point or show how i'd distorted it then to attack me directly and personally and say i've never in the past shown the grace or honesty to admit when i've lied about such matters and so was unlikely to admit my deceptions in this instance and then began the beer belching frat boy hazing extravaganza you found so commendably charming all of this in a thread that began with jay's personal attack on pr alongside the spurious point downplaying haaretz as a source the same spurious point all subsequent accurate references to which he dismissed as strawmen one girl's trash is another's treasure shell and while you have the right to be charmed by what you find charming you shouldn't conclude that those with different sensibilities have manners less beautiful than yours suffering fools gladly is not the only measure of wikipedia etiquette