thank you for the useful reference domer however i must respectfully disagree that either a consensus was reached at all or adjudicated in the reference you quote above and that if a consensus was displayed it was as you describe i think that the argument supported the original complaint npov murder vs killing there seems to be a bizarre npov inconsistency being raised over articles relating to people killed in ireland there are victims of ira pira such as year old sir norman stronge th baronet and james stronge victims of loyalists such as pat finucane solicitor victims of the british army such as kieran fleming and suicides such as bobby sands there is a vocal and persistent lobby which is pro irish republican many of whom belong to wikipedia wikiproject irish republicanism which argues i think that a death is a killing until somebody is found guilty of murder even when that killing is generally defined and established as murder by law and in the international press kiwiexile at dmoz