vidkun it looks like we agree more than we disagree we agree it's only been called wicca since gardner that's what i said before witchcraft has indeed been practiced for eons before gardner no argument there i've already said my piece about initiation and covens so i won't rehash that i will add that i feel it's equally valid and important to note that those who aren't in covens are initiated into wicca by god and goddess themselves that is more important at least in my opinion than a coven initiating them i will differ with you on one other thing that hasn't been previously discussed unless you're referring to orthopraxy on a fairly broad scale i don't see that as being valid either again the concept an it harm none do as ye will would also range to differing practices ideas and the like that phrase as pointed out wasn't even coined by gardner but crowley and even before him blessed be gabhin