alistair the beagle remark was not intended to be just a joke it applies to this discussion in several ways the main one is that this bickering about the primacy of men inevitable or not is often seen as part of the chase or even terms of endearment but if you substitute the word beagles for women one might be compelled to ask 'what did beagles ever do to you ' this queston is never posed in the human gender wars i think because the atmosphere is too charged hammy