bardin if you would look at most of the bands that are being listed they are all have a lead female singer if that is not labeling them then i don't know what is i'm also trying to point out the fact that symphonic metal was not started as with gothic metal in fact it has been used by bands such as savatage rhapsody of fire and symphony x are where that's coming from and where nightwish epica after forever and many of the other bands are getting the sound from as it reads it reading as if symphonic metal was started because of gothic metal and that just not the case at all and it kicks out a lot of bands that paved the way for what the sound is which is not that gothic black metal and power metal have done more for symphonic metal then gothic as it stands it still is reading in much the wrong way and saying things that just right there which by the way i have not been rude to you at all and i would take kindly that you don't be rude to me if you are going to be rude to me then don't talk to me simple as that