november utc hi zoe we can't fix the page if you keep deleting it but i take your point that it needs to be fixed before it can stay in the main article space what i'd like to suggest to little joe is that we create a page under his user page and work on it there using the above references and whatever else we can find if and when we get it up to a decent standard then we page move it to article space but i can only make that suggestion if it's ok with you is it regards ben aveling ps thanks for leaving the talk page intact