i said clearly from their understanding rightly or wrongly from verses in the bible they arive at the date and believe to be the historical date obviously not from anything outside of that in the way of secular authorities etc and yeah of course you as well as i are going around in circles because you keep rowing with one oar making me do so too in a way i was merely answering your question which i was a little surprised why you asked it of what i meant by believed to be historical as you seemed to think i was meaning for some reason that it was from any outside source that's not what i meant as far as the theological reasons the point too is why would they be so vested if they didn't believe it was the actual actual actual genuine historical date to begin with that makes no sense it's all tied in was my point and also if it was instead of according to the whole years view which i know you don't believe as an atheist or whatever but again from their perspective we'd still be living in the last days anyway instead of it starting in it would be so side point we'd still be in the end times if that's the case but again not to digress too much i was simply answering your question even though i thought that the discussion was already over you were not sure what i meant by believed to be historical date not just solely theological the wt believes it to be the accurate true date as a point of general history and because of the whole gentile times thing as you know of course for the whole messiah's kingdom breaking in for the end times etc etc it's whatever i was addressing your question that was it and yes i noticed your addition in the other discussion and your contention that they mis translated jeremiah when they didn't because seeing other translations they say i begin or i am beginning it does not say what you said of already beginning there's no real difference between the word beginning and start of that's the point it says i am starting off you could easily claim even with the nwt rendering that god already started off so because in all versions the word already is not there whether you use the word beginning or start also i'm a little confused as to what your point is either way wheether the words are already beginning or first or starting off because if it's already beginning as you said wouldn't that also be obviously before the other nations anyway the point is that all versions is obviously that jerusalem would have evil caused by god to begin with with before the other nations why would he say i am beginning with you as other versions have it which makes the point too also again how does your already beginning negate the point that jerusalem would get it first before other nations