can you start a new thread so i don't have to go back between both of you and point out what's wrong with your respective arguments furthermore are you referring to paper audit trails counted only upon a recount or paper ballots that are actually counted and for the billionth time not only is there no proof that any electronic election has been tampered with there can't be any evidence because electronic voting machines have little to none auditing mechanisms and serious security flaws thus there isn't any evidence that any electronic evidence was conducted without any manipulation this is what paper trails help to accomplish and is far from a democratic talking point it's just common sense