thank you for making my point for me and apologies for playing the devil's advocate i worried from the responses in the rapes section that some people wanted to remove sourced information because it was not supported by their original research but now that we have established that ad hominem attacks against shameful publishing houses and respected historians should not be allowed and that readers are capable of verifying sources lets agree that these talk pages are not a forum for wp or and the well sourced section on rape can stay