hey i only just found this page thanks for the welcome and ronz i do appreciate your time and also understand the angle you are presenting so well i perceive the juxtaposition of different viewpoints and am trying to present an angle that i sense is lacking i hope i'm not coming across as 'it's only this it's only this' because that to me is entirely unhelpful but as i'm addressing what i perceive to be a leaning in the other direction my weight on the necessary changes as i perceive may be somewhat greater than what i envisage the outcome should be