as to the issue was put to a vote on tmb allow me to resurrect an archived discussion the founder discussion starts here with a poll in which persons voted and agreed that irvine was the originator of the movement as opposed to architect author creator father or inventor of the movement which names all received votes or the entrepreneur or maker of the movement which names received vote each although the topic of the poll and subsequent messages is founder the term founder was not included as an option on the poll this message thread is pages long messages so long in fact that a second thread called founder part ii was started that thread is messages long more than a dozen is an understatement unique posters appear on the first two pages of part ii even a cursory reading however shows that a consensus has not been reached as late as yesterday this message appeared it's pretty clear that the same faith inspired contentiousness evidenced by members who are editing this article is reflected on tmb as well even now rsuser is disingenuous to assert that a consensus exists on tmb which should be reflected here even if it contradicts documented facts i am getting rather weary of this it's getting hard to stay civil