no need to apologise you're entitled to your opinions and my suggestion was a rather muted one hence the comment flag i do see the problems with it and i take it you agree that we have consensus that some change is desirable and i'm even less comfortable about all of the suggestions to date agree that louis martin father of th r se of lisieux is the best yet that doesn't violate wp honorific but disagree that there are two perfectly good alternatives which do not break any guidelines there's no way that either of the two original suggestions could be called recognizable to readers wp at of course imo and if that's true then they both do break guidelines and in spades but louis martin father of th r se of lisieux is quite a mouthful i think it would be worth breaking wp honorific on this occasion and go with the natural and well attested title instead unless we can do better of course i still hope we can lateral thinking required