friday fac thanks for the comments that's what i needed i actually wasn't away of the noun ing rule i'm sure i do it all the time you mentioned your disdain for various and suggested several and as i'm going through the page i'm work in word while at work so that it's clear that i am making corrections i just cannot do a lot of wiki stuff while at work i started thinking isn't 'several' one of those weasel words i've kind of always been under the impression that vague numerical values are discouraged because several could mean anything that's why i often substitute those instances for words like various and multiple contact me