jim so we have the referenced materials for the marquis de lafayette arthur wellesley st duke of wellington etc and then your retraction i think this talk page is out of date or something in any event please update the talk page with the next actions change the aforementioned pages to reflect only the given name and change the subject of this talk session to be the same would you say that is correct you know it does as i ponder it make a great deal more sense to use the name and the various titles held in peerage or otherwise under the person's given name there are tons of examples in every direction so i see a basic three tiered approach the person document the honorary title document such as baron duke knight etc with iiluminating text in a section such as early life or perhaps nobility titles or something along those lines i enjoy refining documents to be more clear and include the much additional insights found on wikipedia and link to them i await your direction on how to proceed kindly allen