hi umeboshi thanks but i think i'm just going to let this topic go as far as wikipedia is concerned it is too stressful to do battle with some of these characters and i don't really know my way around the various political systems if you are interested in re posting and pursuing the topic i think that would be great i've got to release it i had steam coming out of my ears last night and at this advanced age i've reached that's not too good thanks again and i hope you are having a very nice day today best wishes