hi tom funny one i don't see the note below that you refer to as far as insertion of the info in the lead sentence see the note above our conversation for my thoughts the wiki policy that i refer to which is the focus of some people who focus more on their view of required format than they do on what is awk no doubt largely causes this problem i expect you don't have a problem with mention that someone is latvian say in the lead and do not view that as awk and as you and our colleague in the above discussion point out it was seem non awk to say jewish or jew either before or after the reference to latvian but where some people's reading of the wiki format direction stops us from doing this we are necessarily forced into a more awkward presentation what you say looks feels very awkward if i want to satisfy the format is most important people and i want to satisfy the awk is most important people and still wish to reflect simply in the text that someone is jewish with no greater emphasis than mention of the fact that they are latvian i find that at times this can be challenging depending on whether the interested parties wish to make the article better or just like deleting or reverting the info without putting it in a form that works for them and others there are i expect one or two other groups of editors out there one group just wishes to delete mention of the fact generally that people are jewish another group wishes to delete mention of the fact that people are jewish if they believe it will help or hurt the image of jews that they wish to propogate these two group i expect do not indicate what their true interest is but cloak their arguments with psuedo rationale argumentation personally while i personally support reflection that people are jewish especially in the area of sportspeople i would not delete such a reference where the person in question is not one that the jews might be proud to call their own if it notable as measured and this is important by reflection of the fact in multiple sources that are reliable and not connected then i have no problem with good or bad people being identified as jews if that is the case the same as i have no problem with them being identified as latvians i appreciate your comment that you are not trying to ethnically cleanse articles as you put it i just had some people delete a category that i created jewish figure skaters it was deleted despite the fact that attempts to delete jewish sportspeople and jewish fencers with largely the same arguments recently by the same people did not result in deletion that is now up for deletion review if you could give me any thoughts as to your thinking on how to address this issue that would be great as well cheers have a great weekend