comment first skinsmoke you need to agf i have not been trying to convey a biased picture of the guidelines as your comment very selective seems to suggest while browsing the page i may have missed something and skipped parts that didn't seem to apply at first glance but if so it is an honest mistake and i resent comments suggesting anything else second the guidelines seem to use the words normally and often and sometimes that doesn't seem very binding third i don't remember being in a discussion last week where the european pattern of disambiguating by comma argument was used which one of the supporters above are you referring to it surely isn't me because i strongly disagree this city state naming convention is north american at least in my world on the subject matter i can't imagine that any dane in his right mind would refer to the danish city of hatting as hatting danmark likewise i don't think any yodler would refer to the austrian city of hatting as hatting sterreich ergo both cities are named hatting also if you check the da wiki names for the cities dabbed by the municipality name in the other rm you'll see that they're all having the dab in parentheses so a ny specific national convention takes precedence though right ergo the dab should be in parentheses in any case if there really are binding rules to your interpretation i think they should indeed be changed