may utc did you read the discussion i linked to i asserted that there was a consensus only on the fact that haditha was not an apt analogy i did this because three independent editors and all supported my argument and you didn't respond see and i apologize if i mistakenly assumed a consensus was reached but you can hardly fault me for doing so if you think there's another example that demonstrates why we should reject massacre as a pov term i'm all ears i just don't think you should keep citing haditha