sorry it just seemed we were being stonewalled with a take a look at the rfc as it explans it all if you have a spare week to read it all and even figure out where to look in the first place now go away seems i was wrong and i apologise for that on a personal note i have just been made redundant from work and am a little angry about that no excuse for taking it out on the editors here though i agree maybe a nice can of cold beer and a little snooze afterwards yes sounds good to me then i'll start over if i may clipman