interesting how people do things isn't it give them a decent list of references and they go nuts i was a philosophy grad so i am used to backing up just about every phrase if i have to and researching far and wide i know wiki is not supposed to be used as a source in many academic institutions but people may tend to use it if it's constructed reliably which can only be a good thing thanks for your help and i shall continue to try and reference where appropriate and learn more about wiki's processes cheers yb