aha thank you for explaining so maven is the magician's magician though he doesn't have the public recognition of the others he is an industry respected innovator and mentor and those are the criteria that you use to define great we should definitely work on an article about him then if you can pile up references on his discussion page or feel free to take a stab at writing the article itself if you're comfortable you can stick to wp npov now my next question is one of terminology what word do you use in the industry to distinguish between the publicly known magicians such as copperfield penn teller siegfried roy doug henning etc to define their fame if they're not on a list of great what list would you put them on