jfw i have tried to discuss this without quoting you and it didn't seem to work i don't see what the big objection to fisking is on the contrary it seems to me that responding to direct quotes as i have done is quite a bit more productive than responding to strawmen as you have you seem to have a completely different bar for civility depending on who the recipient is you took great umbrage at being told that you were using a term incorrectly but when i pointed out that it's rude to say that your interpretation is obviously right and anyone with a different view is flatly wrong you went all hissy and declared i am taking every one of my statements as a personal attack your attempts at logic are ridiculous if you want me to treat you respect you need to give me the respect of not writing arguments that insult my intelligence for instance we disagree on an issue and that makes it a matter of opinion no no it doesn't as for the rest you are once again attacking a strawman now the bible does not say what you say it says therefore the most honest thing to do would be to say in the article that this is an intepretation of the bible the bare minimum is to cite a source that supports your claim that this is the consensus interpretation rather than citing the bible like it directly says that you keep saying that everyone agrees that this is what the bible says so it shouldn't be any trouble to find a reputable source saying this