Lemmer: Heart of Darkness | The SwitchBoard
Lemmer: Heart of Darkness
Lemmer: Heart of Darkness Apr 30, 2019 7:19:39 GMT
Post by cjm on Apr 30, 2019 7:19:39 GMT
As jy sy artikels gelees het, hoef jy die oorspronklike nie te lees nie.
Lemmer: Heart of Darkness Apr 30, 2019 13:10:22 GMT
Post by Trog on Apr 30, 2019 13:10:22 GMT
Ek is nogal geïnteresseerd in hierdie vindingryke toepassing. Ek sou dink dat daar verskeie toepassings gevind kan word. Ek self het dit by geleentheid, iewers op 'n forum, nuttig gevind om "The horror! The horror!" toepaslik te maak op die reënboog Suid-Afrika.
Persoonlik dink ek 'Heart of Darkness' is heeltemal te diep vir beide diegene wat dit loof as 'n aanklag teen kolonialisme en díe wat dit afmaak as rassisme. Om die waarheid te sê, ek beskou beide sieninge as beuselagtig - dit is 'n oneindig meer genuanseerde werk as dit. Deels omdat Conrad geen morele oordeel maak nie, en geen blaam allokeer nie. Hy beskryf bloot - dit is asof die karakters op 'n soort van Heidegger-agtige manier in die wêreld gegooi is. Op 'n manier herhinder dit my nogal aan JM Coetzee se Disgrace.
Lemmer: Heart of Darkness Apr 30, 2019 17:06:53 GMT
Post by cjm on Apr 30, 2019 17:06:53 GMT
Apr 30, 2019 13:10:22 GMT Trog said:
Ek kan sê dat ek dit gelees het (onder dwang) en dat ek weinig daarvan onthou. Algemene indrukke is al wat ek oorhet. Die een indruk was my verbasing dat so 'n rassistiese stuk soveel aanhang in die Engelse wêreld geniet. Die ander indruk (eintelik meer my huidige rekonstruksie van gevoelens toe) is dat die "horror" swak onderskraag en gemotiveer is deur die inhoud. Ek het my kop gekrap oor wat Kurtz dan nou weet wat die leser nie weet nie en wat ek dan nou misgelees het. Daar was 'n amptelike uitleg (of dan ten minste een van 'n aantal) wat ek geleer het, om naelskraap te slaag. Ek dink nou vele jare later dat Conrad se taalgebruik sy onvermoë om hom behoorlik op Engels uit te druk, weerspieël en dat sy verhaling plek-plek verval in 'n vae gekarring sonder logika.
Miskien was Kurtz bloot ylend van sy siekte.
Dat Conrad nie eintlik geweet het wat hy met die narratief wil maak nie, word miskien ook gesuggereer deur die volgende aanhaling uit Lemmer se stuk:
'n Gedagte wat by my opkom is dat daar ook elemente van Stanley se twee reise in die Kongo is, wat hy beskryf in In Darkest Africa (1890) en Through the Dark Continent (1878).
Ontdekkingsreisigers in Afrika het so gou as wat hulle tuis was, eers 'n boek of twee geskryf wat deur die onkundige westerse barbare opgeslurp is.
Ten minste een van Stanley se boeke was reeds gepubliseer toe Conrad sy eie reis in die Kongo aangepak het.
Nie dat dit saak maak nie, maar Heart of Darkness (na my mening) was 'n tydsgebonde boek geskryf op die mantelflappe van andere - 'n berekende *bestseller* - en dis hoe dit daar vir my uitsien. 'n Dun storietjie, gevul met Afrika-detail om die onkundge lesers te laat swymel voor die leeus en olifante (by wyse van spreke). Toe die einde van die boek nader moes "horror" vinnig gevind word om die vaal reisbeskrywing darem 'n bietjie lyf te gee.
Ek sal dit nie weer lees nie!!
Last Edit: Apr 30, 2019 17:19:04 GMT by cjm
Lemmer: Heart of Darkness Apr 30, 2019 17:51:16 GMT
Post by cjm on Apr 30, 2019 17:51:16 GMT
Ook uit die Lemmer opstel:
Lemmer: Heart of Darkness May 2, 2019 9:46:34 GMT
Post by Trog on May 2, 2019 9:46:34 GMT
Apr 30, 2019 17:06:53 GMT cjm said:
Miskien moet jy tog probeer om dit weer te lees. Ek het dit al verskeie kere ondervind dat goed wat ek in my jeug gelees en verwerp het as vlak en waardeloos, by die herlees daarvan, met (hopelik) 'n vermoedelik groter insig, 'n metamorfose ondergaan. Veral wanneer ek dit oorspronklik gelees het onder die leiding van onderwysers of dosente wat self moontlik geworstel het met ietwat beperkte vermoëns: Dit het my dekades geneem om ontlae te raak van my renons in Shakespeare se The Tempest, Bartho Smit se Moeder Hanna en Van Melle se Bart Nel.
Ek het sopas weer Heart of Darkness gelees, en ek volhou daarmee dat dit een van die mees 'profound' stukke prosa is wat ek in Engels gelees het. Ek dink TS Elliot stem met my saam: The Hollow Men
In ieder geval, met kolonialisme en rassisme het die storie min te doen. Die milieu en tyd waarin dit plaasvind kon enige plek en enige tyd gewees het - Conrad het dit waarskynlik juis so probeer kies dat dit tyd en milieu ongebonde kan wees. Ek dink dit is een van daardie gevalle waar daar 'n (uiters oppervlakkige) interpretasie aan die boek toegeskryf was wat op daardie oomblik polities nuttig was, en dat (omtrent) niemand sedertdien daaraan gedink het dat daardie besondere interpretasie onnosel is nie. Die wêreld het nou maar net een maal aanvaar dat die tema van die verhaal te doen het met kolonialisme, en tot vandag toe nog is dit omtrent die eerste ding wat mense literêr daaromtrent te sê het. (M.i. het die werklike tema van die boek, soos in The Hollow Men, te doen met 'n fundamentele krisis in die Westerse lewensbeskouing. "The horror!" is 'n kreet van eksistensiele angs.)
Mens kan dit moontlik as 'n reisbeskrywing beskou op dieselfde wyse as wat die Odýsseia of die Argonauts as reisbeskrywings beskou kan word.
Last Edit: May 2, 2019 13:30:09 GMT by Trog
Lemmer: Heart of Darkness May 5, 2019 10:40:37 GMT
Post by cjm on May 5, 2019 10:40:37 GMT
May 2, 2019 9:46:34 GMT Trog said:
Nou-ja, ek het die boek uitgekrap. Nou om bewyse te kry dat dit niks ander as 'n eenvoudige verhaal van Afrika se inherente boosheid is nie
Lemmer: Heart of Darkness May 6, 2019 17:57:35 GMT
Post by Trog on May 6, 2019 17:57:35 GMT
May 5, 2019 10:40:37 GMT cjm said:
Heart_of_Darkness_and_The_Birth_of_Trag.pdf (630.76 KB)
Lemmer: Heart of Darkness May 7, 2019 6:20:57 GMT
Post by cjm on May 7, 2019 6:20:57 GMT
May 6, 2019 17:57:35 GMT Trog said:
Dankie. Ek gaan net eers klaarlees voor ek daarna kyk.
Lemmer: Heart of Darkness May 8, 2019 17:07:22 GMT
Post by cjm on May 8, 2019 17:07:22 GMT
Goeie aardbodem. Daardie skakel is nie eintlik ligte leesstof nie. Dit sal my 'n leeftyd goeie ruk neem om iets sinsvol daaroor kwyt te raak. Om enigiets te sê is alreeds 'n risiko, want elke opmerking word bedreig deur 'n horde onverteerbare onverteerde bladsye. Die bronnelys is self 'n monster waarin Kant, Nietzsche, Die Bybel, Aristotle en hordes ander verskyn.
Nou dat ek my goed verskans het teen enige kritiek, kan ek 'n paar goed kwytraak.
1. Gegewe die aard van taal kan enige storie omtower word na 'n metafoor wat wye draai loop om die oorspronklike. Dus, ek gee toe dat daar filosofiese strome en aanwendings kan wees, wat op die oog af moeilik versoenbaar is met die teks self. So kan Rooikappie morele lesse inhou omtrent verleiding en goede trou. Ek sou egter verkies het, dat die relaas afskop met 'n oorweging van die teks self en daarna sy weg voel na die meer abstrakte eerder as andersom soos hier gebeur. Dit is egter nie noodlottig vir die Griek se studie nie.
2. As jy Afrika wegvat uit die storie is daar niks. Die hele verhaal draai om Afrika, sy agterlikheid en sy gruwels. Dit mag uitlegbaar wees as metafore en simbole, maar dit vorm 'n konkrete basis waarsonder daar niks in die storie is nie. 'n Mens kan seker in die antieke tyd voorbeelde vind wat dieselfde doel kan dien, maar nie in die moderne wêreld voor 1900 nie. Dit bring my sommer by die aanvang van Heart by die idee dat beskawing geskep word deur geweld en mag en ongedaan gemaak kan word deur primitiewe barbare:
The old river in its broad reach rested unruffled at the decline of day, after ages of good service done to the race that peopled its banks, spread out in the tranquil dignity of a waterway leading to the uttermost ends of the earth. We looked at the venerable stream not in the vivid flush of a short day that comes and departs for ever, but in the august light of abiding memories. And indeed nothing is easier for a man who has, as the phrase goes, ‘followed the sea’ with reverence and affection, that to evoke the great spirit of the past upon the lower reaches of the Thames. The tidal current runs to and fro in its unceasing service, crowded with memories of men and ships it had borne to the rest of home or to the battles of the sea. It had known and served all the men of whom the nation is proud, from Sir Francis Drake to Sir John Franklin, knights all, titled and untitled—the great knights-errant of the sea. It had borne all the ships whose names are like jewels flashing in the night of time, from the GOLDEN HIND returning with her rotund flanks full of treasure, to be visit-ed by the Queen’s Highness and thus pass out of the gigantic tale, to the EREBUS and TERROR, bound on other conquests— and that never returned. It had known the ships and the men. They had sailed from Deptford, from Greenwich, from Erith— the adventurers and the settlers; kings’ ships and the ships of men on ‘Change; captains, admirals, the dark ‘interlopers’ of the Eastern trade, and the com-missioned ‘generals’ of East India fleets. Hunters for gold, pursuers of fame, they all had gone out on that stream, bearing the sword, and often the torch, messengers of the might within the land, bearers of a spark from the sacred fire. What greatness had not floated on the ebb of that river into the mystery of an unknown earth! ... The dreams of men, the seed of commonwealths, the germs of empires.
‘I was thinking of very old times, when the Romans first came here, nineteen hundred years ago—the other day.... Light came out of this river since—you say Knights? Yes; but it is like a running blaze on a plain, like a flash of lightning in the clouds. We live in the flicker—may it last as long as the old earth keeps rolling! But darkness was here yesterday. Imagine the feelings of a commander of a fine—what d’ye call ‘em?—trireme in the Mediterranean, ordered suddenly to the north; run overland across the Gauls in a hurry; put in charge of one of these craft the legionaries—a wonderful lot of handy men they must have been, too—used to build, apparently by the hundred, in a month or two, if we may believe what we read. Imagine him here—the very end of the world, a sea the colour of lead, a sky the colour of smoke, kind of ship about as rigid as a concertina— and going up this river with stores, or orders, or what you like. Sand-banks, marshes, forests, savages,—precious little to eat fit for a civilized man, nothing but Thames water to drink. No Falernian wine here, no going ashore. Here and there a military camp lost in a wilderness, like a needle in a bundle of hay—cold, fog, tempests, disease, exile, and death—death skulking in the air, in the water, in the bush. They must have been dying like flies here. Oh, yes—he did it. Did it very well, too, no doubt, and without thinking much about it either, except afterwards to brag of what he had gone through in his time, perhaps. They were men enough to face the darkness. And perhaps he was cheered by keeping his eye on a chance of promotion to the fleet at Ravenna by and by, if he had good friends in Rome and survived the awful cli-mate. Or think of a decent young citizen in a toga—perhaps too much dice, you know—coming out here in the train of some prefect, or tax-gatherer, or trader even, to mend his fortunes. Land in a swamp, march through the woods, and in some inland post feel the savagery, the utter savagery, had closed round him—all that mysterious life of the wilderness that stirs in the forest, in the jungles, in the hearts of wild men. There’s no initiation either into such mysteries. He has to live in the midst of the incomprehensible, which is also detestable. And it has a fascination, too, that goes to work upon him. The fascination of the abomination—you know, imagine the growing regrets, the longing to escape, the powerless disgust, the surrender, the hate.’He paused.
‘Mind,’ he began again, lifting one arm from the elbow, the palm of the hand outwards, so that, with his legs folded before him, he had the pose of a Buddha preaching in European clothes and without a lotus-flower—‘Mind, none of us would feel exactly like this. What saves us is efficiency—the devotion to efficiency. But these chaps were not much account, really. They were no colonists; their administration was merely a squeeze, and nothing more, I suspect. They were conquerors, and for that you want only brute force— nothing to boast of, when you have it, since your strength is just an accident arising from the weakness of others. They grabbed what they could get for the sake of what was to be got. It was just robbery with violence, aggravated murder on a great scale, and men going at it blind—as is very proper for those who tackle a darkness. The conquest of the earth, which mostly means the taking it away from those who have a different complexion or slightly flatter noses than ourselves, is not a pretty thing when you look into it too much. What redeems it is the idea only. An idea at the back of it; not a sentimental pretence but an idea; and an unselfish belief in the idea—something you can set up, and bow down before, and offer a sacrifice to. ...’He broke off.
3. Die ander sentrale gedagte wat vir my uitstaan is Kurtz se uitering van die woorde "the horror, the horror" ( 'n mens moet eintlik gaan sit en 'n lysie maak van al die gruwels wat voorkom). Na die gruwels van die 20ste eeu, moet ek egter sê dat ek dink Heart is 'n amateurspoging teenoor wat die latere geskiedenis inhou. In elk geval, die Griek aan die woord:
Just as the tragic hero is nothing more than a projection of
the audience’s hopes and fears onto the stage, so Kurtz can be
said to be the embodiment of other people’s psychological
needs in Heart of Darkness. Accordingly, Marlow would like
to see in Kurtz the victory of Apollo over Dionysus, but that
victory belongs to the spectator of tragedy who has to mentally
follow the tragic hero into the Dionysian element without
losing his hold on the Apollonian principles that sustain his
civilized existence and sense of self. This is the symbolism of
Marlow’s tracking Kurtz down into the jungle, and returning
him back to the steamer without having to throttle him or
smash his head. However, to rescue the physical Kurtz from
the darkness is not enough; in order for Marlow to sustain his
Apollonian illusions, he must also salvage the myth of Kurtz
by interpreting his final verdict back on the steamer in such a
way as would make its import safe for civilization. Kurtz’ last
words themselves – “The horror! The horror!” (HD 111) – are
poised between light and darkness and are as ambiguous as
everything else about the man who utters them. They are said
to embody a “strange commingling of desire and hate” (HD
113) and, while Kurtz is uttering them, he seems to be
“embracing, condemning, loathing all the universe” (HD 117).
Yet Marlow, wishing to stress their redemptive quality,
interprets them as a “judgement” passed by Kurtz “on the
adventures of his soul on this earth” HD (112). The captain
also claims that Kurtz was a “remarkable man” because his last
words represent “the expression of some sort of belief” (HD
113). But Marlow is merely revealing in this way his own
desperate need to believe in a climate of extreme moral doubt
and projecting his personal convictions onto Kurtz. It follows,
therefore, that the most “remarkable man” of all is Marlow
who has the faith to affirm the civilizing values that “make
existence worth living and compel us to live on” (BT 130) in a
world deprived of God.
Rather than constituting a moral reflection on his
abominations, Kurtz’ last words may simply be the expression
of regret at the approach of death and the impossibility of
indulging any longer in “the gratification of his various lusts”
(HD 97). As Nietzsche pointed out,
It is not unworthy of the greatest heroes to yearn to live on
[...] so impetuously does the will in its Apollonian form
desire to live on that even lament becomes its hymn of
praise (BT 28).
This interpretation of Kurtz’ verdict is lent credence by the
manuscript of Heart of Darkness where Conrad originally
painted the picture of a totally unrepentant Kurtz: “I have lived
supremely”, says he, “I have been dead – and damned. Let me
go – I want more of it... More blood, more heads-on-stakes,
more adoration, rapine and murder.” Just as Kurtz’ author
deleted these dark words from the manuscript of the novel,
Marlow offers his listeners an optimistic rendering of Kurtz’
final verdict, as well as a civilized version of his report with the
savage postscript torn off, thereby reflecting the Conrad who
felt it the artist’s duty to sustain the illusions of civilization at a
time when they were being undermined by the discoveries of
science. This was Nietzsche’s position too: “We must plunge
right into the middle of those struggles which [...] are being
waged in the highest spheres of our contemporary world
between knowledge with its insatiable optimism and the tragic
need for art” (BT 85).140
What Marlow’s life-affirming misrepresentation of Kurtz’
verdict highlights is the way Hellenic serenity is no natural,
pre-lapsarian condition in man, but an Apollonian state of
innocence deliberately and laboriously affirmed in the face of
the Dionysian horrors of life. 101 Thus, regarding Kurtz’ famous
last words, Marlow claims that,
It was an affirmation a moral victory paid for by
innumerable defeats, by abominable terrors, by
abominable satisfactions. But it was a victory! That is why
I have remained loyal to Kurtz to the last, and even
beyond. (HD 113)
This Apollonian transformation of failure into victory reveals
its artificiality linguistically, as the single noun at the end of the
passage (“victory”) is unable to sustain the portentous
adjectival phrases that go before it (“innumerable defeats”,
“abominable terrors”, “abominable satisfactions”). For,
Marlow knows in his heart that the darkness is as “triumphant”
as it is “eternal” (HD 119), and that he cannot ultimately
defend himself against it. The same holds for Marlow cliché
phrase “and even beyond” which represents an attempt to offer
metaphysical consolation in a world deprived of God by
positing the existence of a spiritual realm and the survival of
the soul after death. Thus, through Apollo’s artistic
intervention, Silenus’ wisdom in Kurtz’ verdict is momentarily
stood on its head and life becomes desirable once more.
Nietzsche claimed that the triumph of the Apollonian over the
Dionysian is embodied most clearly in the epic poetry of
As Conrad wrote in “The Return” regarding the vital need to
fictionalize away unpleasant realities, “there is a moment of dumb
dismay, and the wanderings must begin again; the painful exploring
away of facts the feverish raking up of illusions, the cultivation of a
fresh crop of lies in the sweat of one’s brow, to sustain life, to make it
supportable, to make it fair” (Tales of Hearsay, 134).
Homer which affirms that “the very worst of all would be to
meet an early death, the second worst is to die at all” (BT 28)
and there is an echo of the spirit of epic in Marlow’s tale of the
“remarkable man” whose final verdict on life is said to have
had “candour”, “conviction”, and “a vibrating note of revolt in
its whisper” (HD 113). 102
Ek stem saam dat die woorde ("horror, horror") dubbelsinnig is en voel dat daar veel van Conrad se geskryf is wat (doelbewus?) nie baie duidelik is nie. Persoonlik is ek van mening dat die onderliggende gedagtegang baie keer nie behoorlik uitgewerk is nie en dat die leser dan vae mymeringe moet opvreet vir groot gedagtes. Daar is baie literêre werk, na my beskeie mening, wat mank gaan aan soortgelyke
Om meer spesifiek na hierdie aanhaling toe te kom: Kurtz het geen groot begeerte gehad om gered te word nie. Hier kan 'n mens dink aan sy wegsluip (kruip) van die boot af en die opsteek van sy volgelinge om die boot aan te val. Of hy danig jammer is oor enigiets, twyfel ek. Dis meer 'n gewaarwording van die omvang van sy lewe se nalatenskap. Om die waarheid te sê het hy waarskynlik gedy op gruwels. Sy kranksinnigheid het moontlik hier net vir 'n oomblik gewyk. Van die wittes is dit net hy wat so verval het. Die ander leef tog onder soortgelyke toestande. Die "horror" word inderdaad gerelativiseer tot iets wat onder beskaafdes net onder uitsonderlike omstandighede te voorskyn kom.
Net om weer stil te staan by die gedagte dat Conrad floreer op dubbelsinnigheid, kan 'n mens die Griek se volgende uiteringe oorweeg:
The Apollonian yearning for beauty, order, and decorum
is therefore viewed as a life-affirming response to the
Dionysian knowledge of the agony, dissonance, and strife at
the heart of existence, so that tragedy is conceived as the
balance between Apollo and Dionysus, or “the concrete
Apollonian representation of Dionysian insights and effects”
(BT 51). Finally, Nietzsche’s whole theory of tragedy is
summed up in what he called “tragedy’s doctrine of the
mysteries” which comprises of “the fundamental knowledge of
the unity of all that exists, the consideration of individuation as
the original cause of evil, art as the presentiment of a restored
unity” (BT 60).
Daar het jy dit: 'n Rondspringery tussen twee teenstrydighede wat dan nou seker insigte sal verleen. Hoe beter om Conrad se halfgebakte geradbraak se verduidelik?
Om eerlik te wees, ek dink nie dat hy te veel rondspring nie: Beskawing (Apollo) - soos dit dan in 1900 verstaan is, is die onbetwiste doelwit.
Last Edit: May 8, 2019 17:10:11 GMT by cjm
Lemmer: Heart of Darkness May 15, 2019 18:31:29 GMT
Post by cjm on May 15, 2019 18:31:29 GMT
Ek is seker nie in GROOT geselskap nie (definitief nie in die meerderheid nie), maar darem nie alleen nie!
I really don't see why people think Heart of Darkness is such a great book
I finished reading Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness last night, and, frankly, I thought it was terrible- badly written, difficult to follow, and just Not Very Good.
The actual idea behind the story was great, but I think Apocalypse Now did a much better job of exploring the themes Conrad was trying to get across.
Of course, the Literati will no doubt be in to try and convince me how Worthy and Great this book is, but I was extremely disappointed with it...
Anyone else have the same experience? I can't be the only person who's read this (or another Classic piece of Literature) and basically said "WTF? This is terrible!"...
The horror comes as a result of the book boring you to death.
Lemmer: Heart of Darkness May 17, 2019 6:29:52 GMT
Post by cjm on May 17, 2019 6:29:52 GMT
Ongelooflike literatuur oor die boek.
Die Academia webwerf:
We found 35,790 full-text results for the search Literary Criticism Heart of Darkness.
Lemmer: Heart of Darkness May 20, 2019 8:26:31 GMT
Post by cjm on May 20, 2019 8:26:31 GMT
Lemmer: Heart of Darkness Aug 12, 2019 11:33:21 GMT
Post by cjm on Aug 12, 2019 11:33:21 GMT
Male Intimacy in Conrad's Tales of Adventure: The Nigger of the Narcissus & Heart of Darkness