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The Weekender: Myth & Dropzone Commander Terrain
March 23, 2013 by dignity
Video Sponsors: Infinity - Battle Foam
Well it's been another week of ups, downs, and turnarounds and as always we're here to keep you guys up to date on all the goings on from another week in our gaming world.
Here are this weeks highlights links:
Myth - New Game By MERCS Creators
New DreadBall Kick Off Starter Set
Superb Painted Stormwall
MiniWarGaming Shuts Up Shop
Dark Potential Week
Russian Alternative Hero Miniatures
THON Kickstarter Cancelled
Dark Sword Miniatures For March/April
More Tour of Duty (Flames of War) Releases
Release Watch - More Flames of War Vietnam releases this week for Saturday
VUSBX03 UH-1D Slick
VUSBX05 M48A3 Patton
VUS712 Rifle Platoon
VUS715 Mortar Platoon
VUS717 4.2" Mortar Platoon
Fantasy Fantasy Wargaming Featured SCI FI Wargaming SciFi The Weekender
Content: Video Show: The Weekender
212 Comments on "The Weekender: Myth & Dropzone Commander Terrain"
This was a difficult show, in that I like to feel good about our hobby, and chatting about the negative side (GW in this case) kinda dilutes things a bit, but sometimes it’s just impossible to ignore. (sometimes its just not right to ignore!)
Looking forward to a dialogue about it in the comments here, as there are no easy answers in this…
Well i was fed up with being agrivated by recent events, so i moved on there are so many great system out there. Infinity, mercs, dystopian wars/legions, i signed in on wwx. So lots of good stuff out there without all the politics
Your right we do own the game even down to the figures we choose to play it with.
I never have understood the whole never going to play with my huge 40K army again because GW has upset me argument.
I always used to buy GW products from our local GW store even though it cost me more but I thought it was important to support it as a game venue.
Games in store however are now a thing of the past so is my custom. I’ll still buy a codex and the odd model ( i like new toys ) but I now buy through independents it’s the only protest I want to make.
I’m not going to cut my nose off to spite my face.
I’m surprised to hear there is not a trade association within your industry especially as there is quite a few times in the year when a lot of them are under the same roof.
Many of us had our say and still many more need to say what they need to say. I’m glad you spoke up about it as its a very important part of us in Canada as many small stores will be effected by this.
I got what your guys where saying: “Send the right message about we don’t like and what we actually want”, in this case buying from alternative, I’m on the same boat with 3d printing vs industrial manufacture ( don’t worry i want talk about that 😛 ).
But in this case i feel what you said about “The industry doesn’t need GW to survive” and i completely agree since kickstarter made it possible and we have in a couple of years more than 20 new miniatures games out there and also many new companies with a fresh view on things and a quality that way better Gw’s ( no moldlines, failcast and very good plastics).
Also i’m in love with 40k background, i read many books ( a lot of Cain’s, they are so much fun! ) and the codex are look better from a cinematic and background perspective. But when your money goes to people that don’t respect the consumer and also there are so many companies that are building their own universe ( Beyond the Gates of Antares and Kingdom Death are my favorites by far, also really interested to see what Warpath will bring in the future )
In any case, GW will have to change because the industry around it is growing and things are changing.
Warren, I completely understand not wanting the negativity. So here is something for you….
I’m not worried about what GW does. GW only cares about the new gamers. They’re focused primarily on those players who are investing in a new army, because those gamers spend the most money (on a single system. Us long-timers spend more money really, but we spread it around more). So you have to look at GW from a different perspective. Let them have the new gamers. When those gamers get fed up of the GW treadmill that is basically designed to annoy them (because, let’s face it they anger their veteran players every few years or so), they’ll start looking at other systems. And we’ll be ready to play some games with them when they’re ready.
I’m much more worried about what independent retailers do. You said it yourself, GW lets the independents do all the groundwork creating a market for them, and when it gets big enough they move in and try to take it for themselves. Any retailer that works to promote GW is asking to be put out of business. What our retailers need to do is start promoting other games. Local retailers have a lot of influence over their customers. People ask them. If they started saying, “Hey if you like playing in 40k, you may really like as well.” I don’t mean they need to engage in the hard sell, but this really underlines how much it is local game stores’ best interest to not rely so much on GW to support their own businesses.
I’ve seen that shift happen in my local area already. The large stores that supported themselves primarily with 40k product closed in the last few years. New stores have opened in their wake, and they promote other games much more heavily than they do GW games. I don’t think that’s an arbitrary or coincidental shift. I think they’ve figured out that GW is not their ally or business partner. They still sell GW games because they still need that money, but they are clearly trying to help other games grow much more than they are trying to help GW maintain their position.
And Stuart, as far as depth of background is concerned, 40k does not even come close to Battletech. It’s a pale shadow of the background material in Battletech. There’s one example of a game who’s fluff completely dwarfs all of GW’s games combined. We’re talking literally hundreds of sourcebooks filled with history, fiction, scenarios, characters, in-universe rumors, intrigue and drama. It’s not gothic grimdarkness, but it’s plenty deep.
Actually, I like that you guys at BoW don’t exclusively talk about the positive stuff as if there weren’t any negative things in this world. Because I agree that there are things that are impossible and/or not right to ignore.
After all, there are still enough good things to talk about.
Just in time to eat my breakfast … lunch? breakfast.
It’s all a matter of perspective. 🙂
Or time zone 😉
Or Sleeping pattern.
Or I’m a Hobbit …
or all day breakfast
I love lamp…
This would be a breach of the Law in Australia, anti-competative behaviour, and they would be fined VERY heavily, SONY was fined $4 million a day a few years back for the zoning of CD’s. I wonder if this is why they are abandoning the Australian market? I have inside sources letting me know they are trying to increase the independent retailers, and reducing their own shops. For those Australians who want to complain about the price discrepancy I have attached the ACCC link below. After speaking with them they will take action with enough complaints filed.
Typical GW. They do not care about their ever dwindling fanbase. Money talks and that’s all gw is interested in.
There are so many other games out there. Yes gw is the big dog etc but the games are full of flaws and random rolling here, there and everywhere. The fluff has been the same for however many years. The prices are a joke. I could go on but end of the day gw are just clueless when it comes to what’s left of their fanbases wants
Money is also the means by which they make their products.
The fluff HAS changed :p Matt Ward loves you.
Given the conversation on the experience GW provides in their local hobby stores I think a choice quote from Mr 40k himself, Rick Priestly:
“So I ventured into a local Games Workshop store, to be interrogated about what I was painting and bombarded with much enthusiastic advice before I was able to make my escape, luckily without giving anything away. I always think of going into a Games Workshop store as not so much a shopping experience as a test of character.”
For me that pretty accurately describes my typical experience and it’s why, for a very very long time, going in to a (GW) hobby store is the very, very last resort of utter desperation. Horrible places, in my opinion.
When was this quote from? Because to be fair, GW stores were ever thus like this even during the golden years (Priestley/Chambers/Johnson/Thorpe/Alessio etc) and I don’t recall RP ever commenting about this whilst he was still at the helm…
GW stores were a great place to go in their golden years back in the 80’s. Even by the 90’s they weren’t as hard sell as they are now. I only go in for modelling supplies now and when I get the inevitable questions about what the paints are for I’m able to mention an historical army which tends to stop the conversation. Though on one occasion it did start up a conversation with a staff member about Saga.
Apparently it’s from his column in Wargames, Soldiers & Strategy magazine and it was just the last issue (64) so fairly recent. I didn’t see it myself but saw it mentioned a couple of places online.
I wouldn’t say it was always that way in GW stores. When I used to frequent them they didn’t just sell GW’s lines. I wasn’t in to wargaming at the time, it was rpg’s for me and in fact I’m pretty sure I got my copy of West End Games Paranoia from a GW store back in the day, but there was no grilling or interrogations, it was a genuinely pleasant experience. Gone very wrong now IMHO.
Some very good bits on the whole GW mallarky
Great show again.
Already said my piece on GW , I’ve not been buying any because the recent stuff just isnt attracting me , they seem to b elosing their way a bit design wise , we mostly play 2nd edition these days , fewer models, its bit more complicated than later versions but its , to my group, more enjoyable.
The dropzone commander stuff just looks fantastic, I’ve used plenty of ‘print your own’ paper terrain over the years, the Dave Drafham stuff like you’ve had for backstagers and lots of world works games stuff, and I’ll tell people now, to print it properly, on high enough quality thick card at high resolution on a decent printer will cost at least as much as it would to just buy that stuff, and thats without the hours it would take to cut it all out and put it all together.
Great product, I bought a PHR army on the launch offers they had, never even assembled or painted a model yet let alone played a game, but its all such high quality stuff I’ve been very impressed with it.
As much as I love the versatility of the print and play terrain ala WorldWorksGames and Battlesystems, I’ve invested so much time in it that I can really appreciate the value of that pre-cut DZC terrain. It it is readily available at the price suggested, I can see this being useful for a ton of different games.
Hmm, I wonder how my guys would feel about adopting ~15mm as a format for our tabletop RPGs..
I’m coming round to the idea of 15mm (or even 10mm) RPGs/adventuring
Massive scope for environments etc
I’m even considering it for wargaming in general. I done a footslogging ork army and it got to the point that the assembly, painting, etc was a painful chore and not fun. That’s as much a part of the hobby as playing and should be fun too but, for example, I love the look of Skaven but I’m not going to be doing that in a hurry. I’m one of those people that couldn’t field unpainted so the knowledge of how much time and pain I’d go through before I could even field them stops me right there.
You can compromise by doing the Army Painter style spray and dunk but I do actually enjoy painting so for me you’re paying good money for a well detailed 28mm+ scale mini then not utilising the advantage of that scale, i.e. to have well painted exquisitely detailed mini’s. 15mm, on the other hand, your compromise is on the mini itself and subsequently it’s significantly cheaper.
While I’ve yet to give it a try I’d expect you’d be able to power through it quicker but still sit back and actually enjoy the painting experience and be happy you’ve pained it to the best of your ability rather than slob on a slapdash job to get it on the field. Then there’s other advantages due to the time/cost being lower that there’s less barriers to changing armies or trying something new.
28mm+ after Orks I’ve really enjoyed paining individual mini’s for skirmish games so Empire of the Dead, Infinity, Malifaux, etc is where I see the scale shines but I think for mass battles I’ll be keeping my eyes open for good sub 28mm rules =)
A flatpack city like that would be fantastic for RPGing, I think you could have a lot of fun trying to sty out of Cthulu’s line of sight, or navigating an occupied city. Nice to see Ikea branch out into terraforming too.
That DZC terrain is amazing! I am not sold on the game yet, but it is becoming more appealing. although that terrain is in 10mm scale I am sure it would do at 12-15mm at a pinch, so I am guessing it would also be useful for heavy gear, critical mass, stargrunt etc
Can’t agree with you about GW in the slightest, in my opinion Space Marines are dull religious zealots of battle. The Warhammer fantasy doesn’t interest me in the slightest as it is just diluted
Also the mechanics of the games are dull and laborious and require a huge investment in time to master (especially when the new codexes come out that are as clear as mud sometime). The minis in my opinion are stagnating and I haven’t seen a truly amazing sculpt often.
I know you have to keep somewhat neutral due to the synergy you have with the fan base. However getting annoyed with GW and then buying more of there stuff through a 3rd party retailer is a bit like funding fascism via McDonnalds.
I am sorry normally you guys are articulate and have good points to make but I found the comments especially Stuarts to be absolute rubbish today.
If your goal is for the company and the setting to just die then of course what you say holds merit.
However to call our opinions ‘rubbish’ because we have a different ‘goal’ from you (the company to succeed by playing fair with their customers and partners)… Well thats actually pretty rude don’t you think?
Discounting someone’s comments and opinions without understanding that their hopes are different from yours actually smacks a little more of fascism to me :s
Warhammer and 40K are both massive melting pots of fiction and movies all baked into two cakes and then given their own spin – the best spin usually dating back from the core notions of the original founders. The Black Library, untainted almost by GW, produce fantastic adventures and enrich the environment. Many peeps out there who read GW but don’t play/paint it, btw.
Even though GW’s products last year / this have mostly gone off course, that still leaves 95% of their products as still the the best / joint best.
I’m offended by your comments about Space Marines being zealots. They are what they NEED to be in a universe falling apart at the seams. Religious faith is necessary in a world where corrupt is so easy. You know nothing of what they have to go through. Spend a moment in their powered armoured shoes before you judge.
I agree if other forces did take over at GW – that where not such bankers (both real and in the rhyming slang way) but hobbiests again
A fair bit of this taking it to the extreem for profit seem to have come after the takeover
So yes this is a GW-(mis)management issue – the games are fine, would I ever just play them ? – No am I and the hobby richer for having them around ?
I suppose I come off like the that as well. Why is this hobby more like a disease? Not since I hit my first golf ball long and straight down the fairway have I been drawn to an endeavor for more. It truly does feel like I need to defend my new BFF. But alas poor Yorick, It’s just a game Horatio.
Talking to the Skullz tm is fairly common amongst new enthusiasts.
It will wear off after a while as you get over the newness of the experience.
I didn’t talk to the Skullz tm but I did get bitten by a tarantula.
To be fair I was trying shave his back so I could superglue Gobbo Spider Riders.
Stupid spider never did learn to stay put and move forward the correct number of in inches on command.
also I never could type in inches without putting “in” before the in inches.
Especially Stuarts? Can’t a brother even get an apostrophe? 😉
Maybe he was subtly implying you have multiple personality disorder?
Sorry Stuart I apologise.
Oh…. I read that wrong didn’t I :*)
Good stuff. I’m someone who grew up on Games Workshop stuff, and am coming back to the hobby after a long, long time away.
So as a returning gamer, this looks like a golden age for wargaming. The sheer number of good quality games that are coming out is staggering. I could happily throw money at Infinity, Dropzone Commander, Mercs, Dystopian Wars, Flames of War, Bolt Action … all on top of the Dreadball, WFB and Warmachine I’m already collecting.
I’ve looked at the Dropzone Commander rulebook and it’s awesome. The mechanics, fluff, artwork and models are far from “indie”. I’ve played Dreadball and it’s (IMO) twice as good as the game it’s always compared to – and I’ve heard similar about Kings of War. The Mercs week on this site has got me itching to get to pay day to buy a couple of factions.
There’s no doubt GW still rule the roost – and with good quality products (not just aggressive business strategies) but that can change.
I’m really sorry to hear about Miniwargaming – I love their Youtube channel and they seem like good guys. But for us gamers – we live in interesting times.
Awesome buildings! Great video.
I am dubious about the “you should buy locally / from online” idea even though your logic is correct imo, GW, or the few individuals who don’t seem to be as perceptive as one might hope (who run things), will simply conclude “people like GW; people like buying online THEREFORE we’ll just do that for ya instead” and cut out the middle man. They will draw the entirely wrong conclusion, or even worse simply use third party brick and mortar shops as test-the-water grounds for a new GW store (they’ve actually done this, I read at least).
I won’t be buying a lot of the new and last year’s GW because they’re just – on average – not good products, it’s that simple. And as for the majority of GW stuff that I love, I will only buy them if they are worth the cash for me – so it’s online discounts for me. Take that away and I’m out. I would happily just buy from the GW site if their models were worth the cash they were asking for. Perhaps I’m the only one? But I noticed on Bell of Lost Souls quite a lot of them revealed they only buy 40K because they can afford to via the discounts.
– One slight musing. GW’s behaviour seems irrational and counter productive (I don’t buy the talk about short-term return for shareholders, that doesn’t match my understanding, the better the company does the better the return). However, what do third-party stores do? They put OTHER miniature games right next to GW products. Perhaps, that might just be one of the factors here not picked up on (or maybe I’m way off). If the GW site is the only place to buy online models then you’re not subject to all that advertising from GW’s competitors (and you get the honour of those amazing One Click Bundleeeeeessssss).
@poosh I think you are spot on with your thoughts about exposing other products beside GW, (we have had first had experience of erm their attitude to that – more on that another time)
I spent most of today thinking about my comments on the weekender, and have a similar ‘fear’ to you that despite the logic of it… Logic just doesn’t always win out 🙁
Logic usually does win out… only different people have different ideas of what constitutes ‘logical’.
I think it’s pretty clear that GW’s motive for the trade agreement changes are, when it comes down to it, to make them more money. I don’t have a problem with that per se, since after all that is what business is about.
However, GW have – in their eyes – reached this point quite logically. They’ve taken a look at their sales figures in various markets, and have decided that there’s a big piece of pie in online sales that they’d rather have all to themselves. So, they change the trade agreements so that only they can sell online.
Now, you say we could send a message to GW by only buying through independents, so that GW will interpret that as “we want to buy from independents” and go “okay”. However, if we’d all done that a year or two ago, and GW’s own sales were 10% lower while sales through independents were higher by the same amount, what actually changes when it comes to GW’s logic?
Nothing. We’ve made the ‘independent’ pie bigger, sure, but GW *still want that pie* (even more so now – it’s bigger!) and will still take the same steps to get it. That’s the problem. Whatever we do, they can still do whatever they want.
A very fair point well made!
It would be stupid if GW just handed out stock to third parties if they gained nothing from it. Why on earth would you just let other people piggy back off your work? That would be pretty stupid of GW and insulting too all the decent people who do actually work at GW who we tend to forget about.
If GW honestly looked at the numbers and it was quite clear third party sellers were taking advantage of GW, and that GW could make more money by simply no longer allowing third parties to supply T.H.E.I.R. product, then that is perfectly just and moral.
What is problematic, and what Matt of MWG points out, is that the reality of third parties is that they actively grow the GW pie, make GW money and grow the fan base and do what GW do not – or refuse – to do. The point is GW are not being rational and not acting in a manner that suits their interests and profits overall. If MWG didn’t make GW money then I’d see no problem here as MWG would indeed by piggybacking off GW’s products: buying GW products at a massive discount and selling them off at a profit – making GW lose money. This is what could, and can, happen but not what I think has happened – and Matt of MWG lays out a series of points as to why this isn’t true and MWG actually raise GW’s profits.
GW’s reasoning is akin to cutting off your left arm because you use your right one more, and that’s the one that seems, at least at first glance, to be doing the heavy lifting. What is ignored is that your left arm compliments your right arm and you are worse off with just your right arm, than with both. GW are not absorbing / looking at the right data or are drawing wrong conclusions imo.
That’s why we need to not buy GW anymore, their way of thinking won’t change unless they can’t apply the same method to get more of the pie anymore and every time they apply that method the loose a lot of clients won’t buy their product but also switch and promote a lot of different companies them they will have to stop using that method.
Sadly GW has a good product but is doing it for the wrong reason and only reason: Money.
Its not just the obvious bullying of smaller and online retailers that repulses me to the point of leaving the hobby altogether…
No it is a large sum total of events in just the past few years that has stopped me from buying into any GW game.
I have three armies 2 of which are still undone from atleast 2 years of not buying into them. One of which is given to me from my own brother who walked away from the hobby because of what we all see.
They stop all tourneys and make a statement we just don’t make any money from it remember we are a model company first
They do annual price hikes to the tune of almost 20% across the existing product line every year
-no other company has done that since I have been gaming-
With every release you see an over the top power creep present that breaks the damn game for the purpose of hocking more plastic.
In order for people to be in competitive gameplay they must submit blindly to the never ending vortex of spending found in the vulgar display of ignorance called GW marketing skills
Speaking further of gameplay and shit design how about how about the release of codex factions that are still current but atleast five years old.
Also it is noteworthy to mention in those faction books that are five year old they have listings for models that are still not in production that you have to create just to field.
Hey then you have a brand new codex release which is given an errata the very next day which is supposed to be equal with another codex which is 5 yrs old and then lay this on top a newly released core rulebook which is major power creep,
Which renders my assault style army useless as well as my horde one useless.
because they want to force you to buy more armies who cares that you have thousands invested in to the ones that have there turn in the barrel now
Man I could go on but don’t feel it is necessary
Warren don’t take this personal because I like ya man but I gotta say that response of yours this morning has got to be one of the most “weak kneed rubber neck chicken shit party line statements I have ever seen you throw out here ever…
To suggest “Hey just keep throwing your coin at GW- I.E. keep stage diving doped up on hash into a Turkish gangbang and never mind the social diseases that follow shortly after..
Dude you got to be kidding me are you insane ?
I’m done all of my GW junk is for sale I don’t want nothing to do with it
Granted some gamers are weak minded but not all of us
Going to set up ebay account I’m out of GW this is nuts
It depends on what you want…
You want them to die as a company, if everyone thought like you we wouldn’t even be having the conversation on the show.
However others (myself included) happen to like the product (or parts of) and would like to see a day when we can buy it at a reasonable price, from whom we like, and enjoy it the way we like, without interference.
So while what I say may not appeal to you, your final objective is different from mine so I’m not sure what it is you want, because currently at least I don’t want the same outcome as you…
Well Warren what I want is a fair shake for the games I like, I have been yelling for a warmachine week of some sort for months…
I could care less eitherway live or die just felt like you were discounting my statement about vote with your wallet Why did you call me out??
If we did vote with our wallets you probably wouldn’t see the things we see happen today, I meet more and more gamers all the time who have dropped GW its not my doing it is theres
I get shot down all the time its no big deal here just feel if your not running with the masses here in thought then your largely ignored or shot down it wasn’t like that when you guys started out.
I will remain a back stager and support this site but man I we don’t see eye on eye on GW that’s all nothing personal
I guess I am ok with them folding everybody can shoot me down it doesn’t matter I will speak my mind
@dawnpatrolchapter I think the competitive community needs to relax, from what I see they are the ones voting with their wallets, voting for the guys with the most legos and model putty. Because GW don’t care about competitive redundant win at all cost socially retarded bully minded douche nozzles doesn’t make them a bad company.
[[The rest of this comment was removed as it was frankly offensive, I’ve noticed a couple of members now crossing the line on offensive comments, the rule here is simple.
MAKE YOUR POINT! BUT ANY MORE BLATENT OFFENSIVE LANGUAGE AND I WILL START BANNING
That’s an interesting comment Warren. Actually very interesting and has clear bearing on this subject. Care to share about that experience of GW objecting to competition? (Puts away very large mixing spoon and acts innocent…)
Lol yeah I may end up writing a book 😉
Wonder if it would get published by Black Library?
Might be worth giving them a call Warren! lol
Great show, and glad you did tackle the sticky topic of GW. One that tends to be emotive rather than logical, and I thought it was well handled. @Stuart your point about claiming the hobby was a more elegant summary of one of the idea I have been trying to get across in the discussion.
@poosh I completely agree, especially about GW purchases and I also buy from online/lgs over Games Workshops pretty much everytime. In part because the discount helps justify the purchase, and can be the tipping factor on that impulse buy but mainly because I believe in supporting good local game stores. I have even brought from LGS that doesn’t offer discount but does have a loyalty card and offer vastly superior service.
As to the placing other products next to GWs being an issue – that is a trend that is growing in GW, and I think is a recognition of the worry they have about competition. If they truly produced the best minitures in the world surely its doesn’t matter what on the shelf next to it (Also agree with @poosh that for the large part I don’t think recent products have been of a consistantly high standard – in fact I would say some recent releases have been poor.)
The problem with the “don’t boycott GW, just buy from the independents instead” approach is that for a lot of us, that’s exactly what we’ve been doing for the past several years. Strongly-worded letters have been done. Buying from the independents has been done. GW have shown no sign that they’re listening, and have just marched ever-onwards with the same unpopular policies. You said yourself in the video that this “no online sales” thing started in the US ten years ago. Nothing that’s been said or done since has had any effect.
GW aren’t listening because *they do not have to*. They can get away with it, and we grouse a bit and then carry on buying stuff anyway They pull stunt after stunt, and yet still they’re hugely dominant – dominant enough still that they can put independent retailers out of business at the drop of the hat, as has just happened with Miniwargaming.
I agree that the independents would suffer if there was a massive GW boycott and we all kept our money in our pockets… but that’s not what I think people should be doing anyway. If you’re in the habit of spending £50 a month on GW products from Wayland Games, then carry on spending £50 a month through Wayland Games but on *other company’s products*. The independent store doesn’t suffer, they’re still taking the same amount of business; in fact in the long term they’re helped because their business is being diversified so that they’re not existing solely at the whim of GW’s policies.
GW are dominant to a degree that is very, very bad for our hobby. What GW says, goes. Trying solely to just “punish” GW for that doesn’t present a solution – all they do in response is come up with some other new policy that we don’t agree with to try to shore up their business at the cost of everyone else.
Feed the little fish. That’s the only solution. When 80%+ of pretty much every online retailer’s business comes from GW products, GW are in total control.
I don’t buy GW products any more. Haven’t played 40k or Fantasy in years, don’t buy their paintbrushes or paints any more. Haven’t set foot in a GW store for a very long time. That in itself doesn’t mean anything though, because GW don’t care much – their whole business model is based around accepting that they’ll lose me and just roping in another 12-year-old whose eye is caught by what’s in the GW store window. What’s important is that I still game, I still buy from independents – I’m just playing *other* games.
Warren says he thinks the industry is getting close to the point where it could survive without GW, but that’s frankly poppycock. If GW went out of business tomorrow, or vanished from the face of the earth, how long would the average independent store last? Forgetting average for a moment, what would the impact on even Wayland Games be? We’re nowhere *near* marketshare being diverse enough that GW could be cut out of the picture and the industry as a whole would be able to just shrug and carry on.
Warzan said “However to call our opinions ‘rubbish’ because we have a different ‘goal’ from you (the company to succeed by playing fair with their customers and partners)… Well thats actually pretty rude don’t you think?”
My point was if your disilusiioned by a company you do not throw more cash at them. That for me is just common sense. The amount of people on youtube saying they are done with GW is significant to see the severity of the issues with the company.
The ultimate question for me is this if GW closed trading tommorow would it affect my gaming hobby in the slightest? The answer for me is not in the slightest. However do you get epic rants about other main manufacturers in the business? Again on this site the answer is no so whatever GW are doing is running there business into disrepute.
And Poosh in my opinion Space Marines are dull! I have read books about them and seen the animated film if you disagree that is your opinion and is no more or less valid than mine.
It is all about differentiation and the understanding that your opinion is your own truth, however we are all different so do not share each others world vision.
There is no truth but the Emperors.
As I consider myself a believer in Solipsism, in fact you are not entitled to your own opinion because you do not really exist. Sorry to break it to you Andy old chap.
fellow Philosophy graduate?
I hate it when my imaginary friends tell me I don’t exist, I have to look in the mirror then just to make sure.
I don’t exist? So that’s why whenever I say “Honey, lets have sex!” my wife ignores me.
Does that mean you are the ruler of the universe Stuart? Did you meet Zaphod?
I’m with ya they like to they like to gangbang ya on forum here when you don’t lay down and agree. Shit man I’m use to it 🙂
That terrain is awesome! I don’t play Dropzone Commander, but I’d love to break out my old Epic stuff, which would be a good fit for this terrain.
Well subversion isn’t a very mature way to debate in my non existent state Stuart. How about you back up your statement with some substance.
Not sure I catch your meaning there skipper? What statement?
“Especially Stuarts? Can’t a brother even get an apostrophe?”
No not when brother is dyslexic but does his best.
From my own understanding of dyslexia it’s not a condition that disables the sense of humor.
Perhaps it’s time for you to lighten up a bit?
With all due respect Warren, the idea of buying GW from alternative sources won’t make any difference. Only maybe for GW to clamp down further on other retailers.
If I understand correctly, you imply GW have announced the latest restrictions due to the success of MGW.
We are not dealing with a rational healthy business. I will strongly advocate that anyone who cares enough should stop purchasing GW products and invest in companies who actually give a monkey’s about their customers. Support your LFGS and FOLGS
There is more chance of GW taking notice of falling sales than seeing that sales have merely been redirected.
Although I would not try to dissuade anyone to voice their discontent directly to GW, do not expect any other response than corporate babble and flim flam.
Yup, that is a definite possibility unfortunately.
Especially since “buying from alternate sources” is already being done by quite a lot of people.
The second life of GW products on e-bay, the resin/metal counterfeiting, the proxies and second-hand products from non-GW stores sales… They know about it. How can they not ? More than half the armies fielded in some tournaments wouldn’t exist otherwise.
I think this is another step towards the Disneyification of GW : they’re getting away from teh wargamers and turning into a toy company that makes video games and films, with a toy line aimed at the 10 to 12 year-old. Hence the design changes in miniatures and in White Dwarf, the IT grabbing and brokering, and the retail policies. You’ll notice that they’re still trying to get sold in toy stores !
So… what now ? I say, vote with your wallets, people.
Play other games if you’re fed up with this one. Fortunately, gone are the infamous days of “you have to play Warhammer or you won’t find any players”… Infinty, Warmahordes and others are booming, and the Internet will set you free !
Of course, it’s just my opinion… But I thought I’d voice it anyway.
I think @elromanozo is probably right. Short term perhaps a wallet vote is what is needed. It may be the only way GW will take heed…
Now I’m sad.
i’m just fearful that if we stop buying from the local gw there feel the pintch and force up the price again
i had to spend st paddys day in the usa with my wife famliy in the usa
they all think there irish -_- they have green cornbeef as there meal
and they all think there experts on the troubles its was paaaaaaainful thank god there was lots to drink
Lol green corn beef… Shudder!
You can’t take inflection from text so how do you know humour is not in my posts?
I’ll have to take your word for it then 😉
This is what happens when gamers do the hobby for fun then try to make a business of it.
It turns to a partyline slobber vest with no real direction only wishy washy statements WOW
Let’s test your ability to ‘wear my shoes’
I want GW products to stick around for the long term, I want the company to grow, however I want that in conjunction with independent retailers both Briks and Mortar and Internet, and also in junction with independent hobby websites and magazines and along side other games and manufacturers.
With an emphasis on growing the whole sector…
If you were me and shared that world view, what would you say/do today?
Borrowing shoes is nasty…
I get what you’re saying and I agree with it but I think we need it to go one step further than GW helping independents, I think the best thing they could do -not for the hobby or the industry, though they’d both benefit- is to separate the retail chain from the manufacturer a bit, by doing so they can sell more of their product, they can get rid of the ancillary products and use what are almost universally better products. If as they say indies have cashed in and gotten a free ride on GW’s product why shouldn’t GW cash in and get a free ride on say Prince august, Vallejo or Battlefoam?
Nice question. Ok. GW is only able to act as it does due to market place dominance. I think we can all agree at least on that. If any other manufacturer placed a stranglehold limitation on how you could access their produce you would quite rightly call it business suicide. The only logical reason for GW to do this is to snatch the piece of the pie that it had allowed others to work hard for. Trouble is they are not even doing that if you think hard. The piece of the pie they snatched is the difference between the price sold to indys and their own RRP. I wonder if anyone would care to let on what percentage that actually is? 😉 It was because of the growth of the Indys that GW grabbed the pie and sorry but your suggestion on weekender was basically to continue to make that Indy pie more tasty to grab for GW. I would go so far as to say you are making its demise that much quicker.
GW needs to have proper serious competition that shakes it to its foundations. It needs to really struggle and justify itself. The suits sense the stirrings of this competition and have decided instead of making a proper fight of it they would rather milk the addicts dry as quickly as possible and not fight at all. GW needs a bloody nose from the community it does not need feeding more. If you want it to die keep rewarding it for treating its customers like idiots. It will never wake up till the next big thing comes and swamps it. Ask Wizards of the coast………;)
Gee gotta love the plus 19 huh
Well I could not wear your shoes based on the fact I refuse to give unwavering support to any one game maker. Especially one that has been anal raping the unsuspecting noobie hobbyist for how many years now.
I play currently 4 different systems outside of GW the flavor of the month is Dropzone Commander which is amazing. I, like most gamers I know bounce around so speaking for myself it is impossible to walk in yours or anyone else’s shoes.
Look I don’t like watching good people like the guys at miniwargaming take hits like what they are taking now.
I refuse to marginalize it not saying that you warren or anyone else are but I think maybe we are missing the end all be all behind the suspected madness concerning GW
It is simple really they are slowly positioning themselves to where they just pull the retailers plug altogether and make it, to where they are the only source for buying their ill gotten wares.
They are moving slow to turn down the bleeding of customers but at the same time
moving forward with power moves that make it ever more evident to atleast me.
My view is singular in the sense I care not for the uber lets hold hands sing hymns and jump into the fires of…
“gotta have it now .”
I am more concerned with playing games with family and friends, which by the way GW freaking destroyed.
It was my fault because it was my idea to switch from RPG’s and video games to war gaming. Eight months of 40k wiped a 7 person gaming group that met atleast twice a month for yrs.
One by one they all dropped gaming and walked away because of the amount of non sense found within this hobby. All over the internet-
Well my gaming garage with 2 tables and a workbench, is being tore down today because it has sat there unattended for over a year now.
Can use the space for something else and have finally caved in to the wife’s pleas as of today to rework it into something else.
Their you go warren you just got a whiff of my shoes.
That should be worth a few more thumbs up from the scrotumless mindless followers who frequent here because they love the abuse handed down from GW
Sorry guys in a bad frame due to the tear down of my hobby space out there, gotta go and load it up
Heres how I feel about not just your world view but anything that even remotely points to global view at all 🙂
After all I am American and independent
That’s nice! /Mrs. Brown. 😛
dawnpatrolchapter says:”That should be worth a few more thumbs up from the scrotumless mindless followers who frequent here because they love the abuse handed down from GW”
You know what? I don’t play GW games any more, I don’t buy GW products any more, but you’re still getting a downvote from me because “scrotumless mindless followers” simply IS NOT NECESSARY. Just cut out the namecalling and vitriol for five minutes and everyone – including you – will be a lot happier.
Dude go buy some panty shields will ya ?
Do they give an armour bonus?
dawnpatrolchapter: “I am more concerned with playing games with family and friends, which by the way GW freaking destroyed.”
snurgle:”Jesus titty f*cking…”
dawnpatrolchapter: Well my gaming garage with 2 tables and a workbench, is being tore down today because it has sat there unattended for over a year now.
snurgle: I’m POSITIVE it’s because you are a dick. and your 27 flamers/screamers got nutted.
Read what Romain said and take a leaf from his book.
You accuse everyone of hate and type stuff like this.
It is unnecessarily offensive, adds nothing to the debate and doesn’t convince me that your arguments are right.
We understand how passionate and enthusiastic people get about their favourite war game system but just step back a tad.
For what it’s worth, @dawnpatrolchapter, I understand completely where you are right now, and I sympathize…
You’re hurting deeply. Of course, you’re needlessly insulting, but what are you to do ?
From your point of view, it sounds like certain statements are just pouring salt on those wounds…
So… I’m sorry, and I feel for you… And I agree that “buying from alternate sources to send a message” won’t work. However, neither do insulting people.
Well it only hurts when after my nuts are finished resting on snurgle’s chin and
then after wards zipper catches skin.
Seriously, @elromanozo I will be honest I felt that people were a little soft in support of Matt and Dave over at the now derailed miniwargaming.
So I have no problem picking up the slack and going way over board. If this is where the hobby is ultimately going you really have to question its worth and do you really want to remain in that hobby.
So this is my struggle meanwhile I refuse to apologize as long as it forces other gamers to reflect on what the hell is happening to our hobby here and maybe somebody out here can produce a solution that doesn’t involve just walking away from it all. Like I have seen many do in the recent past and certainly now as well.
That would be mrs brown 25
Also if you were dungeon crawling I think the panty liners could provide a +1 to healing in a pinch if you needed it 🙂
Well if they are going to pinch that negates the +1 healing!
Will give them a miss then! 😛
Great show guys, I’ve already said a lot on GW and I can say that it’s been a bit of a rollercoaster ride for me – I still enjoy 40k and Warhammer, but I can’t devote myself to them in the same way as a lot of gamer’s do.
I think Warren’s spot on with the word “disingenuous” in conjunction with GW these days. I don’t really feel good if I buy their models, which I should do – the key to retail is to make the customer feel good about spending their money – at the moment GW don’t cut it on that front, either online or in one of their stores.
After joining my local club and playing a game, or just simply chatting to people and even watching games, I’m starting to enjoy my hobby again and getting positive feelings from it, which I’m very thankful for.
I just bought my first 15mm sci-fi minis the other day and, as a scale, I believe it has great potential. I think all 15mm sci-fi needs is a great game.
I love that Dropzone Commander scenery and I’m glad they’ve done it. Unlike others I have no problem with paper or card terrain, as for me its practicalities and cost-effectiveness outweigh its negatives. I wish more companies would produce it as a quick, cheap(er), viable means of getting people gaming in custom terrain landscapes sooner – resin and plastic buildings are often a barrier as it’s extra expense and extra time. I’d love to have all resin or plastic terrain, but in the short-to-mid term it just isn’t as vaiable as well amde card terrain such as that DZC set. It’s releases like that that help make me want to invest and play a game.
Looking forward to XLBS 🙂
…Lastly while it is still fresh in my mind.
“Who is the ass wipe that has forced this community of gamers into thinking that our hobby rises and falls based on what GW does or continues to do to us ???
There must be some kind of mass mind media control or something…
…maybe its the culling of the weak minded in our hobby.
My guess would be some how it is probably both. I mean most gamers I meet on the table are dysfunctional to some degree so it is a natural progression to see us as a collective fall for this shit . -HUH-
Yes that’s an interesting point and honestly until its tested there is no clear answer, however the assumption is based on them being a monopoly within the market so the following points may make things clearer:
At a point in the past 8 out of every 10 products at least, sold in this entire industry were from GW.
Retailers made the bulk of their money (if not profit) from GW stock
Other small manufacturers rely on those retailers staying in business, and the retailers in urn relied on GW
GW were (and to a degree still are) responsible for the overwhelming majority of recruitment of new customers in this sector.
All of the above is changing, but it’s easy to see why they were/are such an important part of the sector.
I disagree warzan. In started playing RPG’s and board games first at the local club in the community Hall. We used mini’s to represent the battles, from all companies. I then started using 1/72 scale WW2 plastics models for wargamming. Still do, have converted FoW to 1/72. GW had a game with an interesting story line. I played it an bought alot over the last 25 years, but I still play the other games. The paultry 30% profit margin required to compete with the online GW store is CRAP compared to the 50-60% profit available from other products. The Indipendent store really wanted to have GW on the shelf, because better returns could be had from other product lines. My store didn’t survive on GW, it was a sideline I used against industry advice.
Most of the gamers I know (and that is alot) only use GW mini’s if they cant find a reaper or other manufaturer with the right mini. GW did not bring them into the market. Many of us got sick of the rules re-writes, and new they were just a marketing ploy, which Rick Priestly has now confirmed. We “played in the gaps” and have used and modified dozens of systems, because for us it is not about the rules or the company, it is about the theme and having fun. If GW do fall, which would be sad but not the End of the world, a new game system will arise , or another company will buy the IP. My only concern is a repeat of D&D where hasbro/Wizards of the Coast keep the IP and attemt run it their way.
All the shops I know have had the same experience.
“The future is here. It’s just not evenly distributed yet.” – Pretty well known William Gibson quote.
I think there is a difference of opinion on this because, as you say, “All of the above is changing…” For some of us, that change started years ago, and for others it’s just now starting. I don’t claim that my experiences (which you’ve already read in countless other threads and up a ways in this one) represent the entirety of the hobby, but they do represent more than just my town. GW is slipping. They are not the “overwhelming majority” of recruitment in this sector. They are the overwhelming majority of recruitment *in some places* in this sector. In other places, where the market is growing rapidly due to the efforts of other companies, GW is just another minis company.
This is true. It’s not true everywhere, but it is true some places. It is especially true in those regions where GW’s pricing or other policies has already impacted the way people can buy their products. Places like Australia and the US. GW’s online policies that began here ten years ago have changed the way the gaming market looks here. And their decision to close dozens of North American stores a couple years ago (three years ago already?) shifted the recruitment scale even further (especially in those cities where the store closed). GW closed their stores during a recession and relied on local retailers to bear the risk of staying open during hard times. Those stores went under during those times, but kept GW’s community going. Then, after those stores went under, GW reopened new outlets in those same towns. It’s blatantly predatory, and independents out here noticed.
The new independent stores which have started here only keep the bare minimum of GW product in stock to maintain their accounts. Their shelf space is almost entirely dedicated to other products and companies. You order what you want if you want GW product now. These retailers have gotten the message. GW is their competitor only and not their partner.
You apparently aren’t seeing that trend where you are. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t already happening elsewhere. For those of us who live in those regions where that shift has started the situation you’re describing (where GW makes the bulk of a retailer’s revenue) just isn’t true anymore. That obviously is not the case everywhere, but there was a time not long ago when it was not the case anywhere, and I think that’s progress.
Opened a can of worms in my head that…
Stores in France are having trouble with GW policies and, to be frank, GW bullying. Their representatives would have you believe that they’re the best of teh best and that it’s an honor to do business with them… In fact, the profit margins for selling GW products is extremely low.
They don’t even allow stores to sell Finecast unless they “prove” themselves by selling first a certain quantity of other products, no matter what history they have with the company prior to Finecast. What is more, they don’t even encourage it.
A friend of mine who owns a game store told me the GW representative flatly told him “You don’t want to sell Finecast. You’re nota faithful customer of ours, and you’re not selling enough stuff for us to let you do that.”… Never mind that my friend’s store has been open for the better part of 15 years, and has been selling GW products since Citadel was making D&D miniatures !
I hear such practices are actually illegal in many countries… I know they’re just plain rude.
Don’t worry, my friend’s store isn’t closing : he makes great margins from everything else BUT Games Workshop !
Still, in France, more GW stores have opened over the years… They used to be respectable places where you could get advice. Not any more. They’ve nudged other stores towards bankruptcy more than once through agressive commercial tactics, sometimes even by opening two doors down from a well established game store.
Terrible business, that.
“Who is the ass wipe that has forced this community of gamers into thinking that our hobby rises and falls based on what GW does or continues to do to us ???”
Reality. Cold, hard reality.
The vast majority of independant gaming stores make the vast majority of their money through selling Games Workshop products. I don’t think anybody disputes this. This is true to the extent that when selling GW products is no longer an option, a lot of those independant gaming stores go out of business. Topical case in point: Miniwargaming. Virtually overnight, Miniwargaming took the decision to shut up shop as a result of GW’s actions.
Problem is, Miniwargaming didn’t only sell GW products. As just one example, they sell a lot of Privateer Press products – you can see an entire wall full of them in the background of MWG’s farewell video. Thus, there is now one less retailer selling PP products *as a direct result of GW’s actions*.
GW are the only company who can do that. If it had been PP who announced “you can no longer sell our stuff online, only we can do that”, then yes there would have been an outcry and yes several retailers’ profits would have been impacted, but I doubt anyone would have gone out of business as a result. There would not have ended up being one less retailer selling GW products.
So yes, GW do have a tremendous amount of control over the wider hobby outside of their own products. Ignoring that doesn’t make it go away.
It doesn’t *have* to be that way, but fixing it requires the marketshare to be evened out. I don’t want GW to die, but I think we’d probably be a lot better off if they only had a 20% marketshare as opposed to 80% or whatever it currently is.
Also, given Stuart’s comments about how the community has a tendency to fall upon itself, it’s rather ironic to then read a post from a community member containing the words such “ass wipe”, “weak minded”, and “dysfunctional” about the community. Why exactly do you think it’s necessary for us to turn on each other over this?
Warzan said “Ok then…
If you were me and shared that world view, what would you say/do today?”
you answered this yourself in the video the answer is to get communication going. Where as you have practised what you stated (and I respect that) has Stuart? Not in my opinion he has just tried to make light of my comments with subversion.
Lets get some honest opinions on here and rather than sweeping statements lets back them up with some substance. I do not have a rigid mind and a opinion or comment if I see the validity in it will sway my thought process.
However I stand by my original comments that some of this things said in the weekender today were nonsense.
You’ll love XLBS then 😉
Looking forward to it. Worth the coffee and muffin on its own 🙂
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