SA Military Intelligence > Interviews > An interview with Vic McPherson regarding the planned bombing of the ANC executive council during the Arusha Conference in Tanzania, 1987.
Length of interview: 18 minutes 46 seconds
Name of Interviewer: Colonel Vic McPherson
Name of interviewee/s: De Wet Potgieter
Audio file name/s of interview:
Interviewer	Ek gesels met Vic McPherson oor die beplande opblaas van die hele ANC hoofraad tydens die Arusha-beraad in Tanzaniё. Watter jaar was dit? 1985?
Vic	Nee, ek dink dit was so ’85, daar rond. Dis lank na die Londen-bom en die Lusaka-bom. Toe’t hulle nou hul annual. Dit het so gebeur dat hulle daardie tydstip het militêre intelligensie, spesmagte, die verkenningseenhede, die Suid-Afrikaanse polisie baie nou saam met mekaar gewerk
Toe die generaal, ek sal gaan kyk wie was in beheer.
Interviewer	Joep Joubert?
Vic	Nee, ek praat nou van polisiegeneraal , veiligheidstak.
My generaal, die hoof by die veiligheidstak, het my net ingeroep en gesê ek moet asseblief na militêre intelligensie toe gaan. Ek dink generaal Witkop Badenhorst, en o ja, eintlik generaal Joep Joubert, eintlik meer generaal Joep Joubert.
Hulle het ŉ taak gekry wat hulle opgelê is met die jaarlikse ANC-beraad wat in Arusha by die Solomon Mahlangu Freedom College sou plaasvind en hulle het al die vermoёns, al die geld is al goedgekeur.
Hulle het nou net ŉ probleem wanneer dit kom by, hulle het nie die infrastruktuur om tot by Arusha te kom nie. Hule weet ek het binne in Malawi het ek ŉ infrastruktuur en ek het mense wat kan deurgaan tot in Dar es Salaam, wat die tale ken, wat die aksente van daardie Tanzaniese taal ken en hulle het ŉ ou met ŉ kar wat saam met hom gaan ry met ŉ ander paspoort.
Ek moet die detail by hulle gaan uitvind.
Hulle het toe twee Nissan 4X4’s gaan koop in Centurion. Toe het hulle in hierdie vragmotors wat met die containers werk klomp goeters vervoer.
Toe het hulle die twee voertuie van hier vervoer vanaf Centurion gelaai en twee rubberduckies en ek weet nie hoe het hulle die bom deurgekry nie. Iewers versteek dalk in die voertuie, ek sal nie weet nie.
Interviewer	Hoekom sal jy dit nie weet nie. Omdat dit ŉ weermag-operasie was en hulle dit hanteer?
Vic	Ja, daar was ŉ kolonel, bevelvoerder van die hele operasie. My rol was slegs om die infrastruktuur te skep, mense wat die taal daar kan praat, en mense want hulle het twee mense van die recces wat valskermsoldate was en ook plofstofdeskundiges en wat weet om die bom aanmekaar te sit, en weet om die plek in die nag te bekruip uit ŉ berg, onder die verhoog in te gaan, die ding te stel en te sit met ŉ knoppie wat hulle net druk.
Ek bedoel hulle sal net daar in die omgewing sit en die knoppie druk dan gaan daardie hele verhoog opgaan in die lug, en dan baie mense dood.
Ek het ŉ veilige huis by Mantlibaai op die Malawi-meer reg teen die baai wat die span kon akkomodeer en dan kan ons behoorlike beplanning daar doen. Toe is die voertuie ingevoer na Malawi. Die probleem daartoe was vir hulle om te kan deurry of rond te beweeg in Malawi moes hulle Malawiese nommerplate en lisensies kry, invoerbelasting betaal, voertuie weer daar in Malawi registreer.
Ek was toe teenwoordig toe die voertuie daar aangekom het waar ek moes gaan teken het. Toe was die twee recce-manne, verkenningsouens met Ierse paspoorte, onder hul regte name, daar om die voertuie weg te bestuur.
Die eerste taak wasom die voertuie met Malawi nommerplate uit te reik en in Malawi geregistreer word en dan moet hulle invoerbelasting betaal vir die twee voertuie, 100 000 Kwacha.
Nou dit is altyd ŉ probleem, maar toe sê ek, nee, dit is nie ŉ probleem nie.
Ek ken ŉ vrou, ook ŉ mede-offisier, is getroud met ŉ Portugees en bly naby die Malawi-meer en ek weet hy sit in sy dak met meer as 250 000 Kwacha. Hy kan niks met die geld doen nie. Daar is niks om met die geld in Malawi te koop nie. So hy steek dit daar bo in sy dak weg.
Julle moet net die ekwivalent van 100 000 Kwacha moet julle in die ander sussie se rekening hier in Suid-Afrika betaal en dan kan julle gaan vakansie hou en julle kan gaan klere koop in Suid-Afrika.
Hulle doen dit toe en hoofkantoor plaas so 100 000 Kwacha se ekwivalent oor. Sê dit was so R80 000. Daar is hy klaar ontslae van hierdie valuta, hierdie note waarmee hy niks kan doen nie.
Toe sê ek vir dioe kolonel ek ken die hoof van die lisensiemense wat nou die karre baie vinnig in Malawi kan registreer.
Ek sê vir hom nou OK ons sal vir die ou van die lisensies ŉ bedraggie gee, so R1 000. Hy sê toe dit is reg. Binne vier ure is die karre geregistreer.
Toe sê hy daar moet raamwerk agter op gebou word waarop die rubberduckies kan kom. Die rubberduckies sou die bom oorgevat het oor die rivier tussen Malawi en Zambiё. Die kolonel, hy was van die paddamanne, Langebaan se mense.
Hy sal dan die bom daar kry tot op ŉ punt en dan sal my mense presies weet waar want hulle ry dan moet hulle gate grou diep genoeg vir twee valskerms om dit weg te steek.
Dan sou daai twee recce-manne met ŉ King Air vliegtuig sou hulle oor, hulle het ŉ groot wildtuin daarso, daar is grondpad wat op plekke groot genoeg is vir die vliegtuig om te land. En hy vlieg onder die radar en sou hy dan land.
Wat hy sou gedoen het om hulle op duisend meter in die nag af te gooi. My persoon, Malawiёr, het hulle so ŉ torchie gegee met ŉ rooi lig wat so skyn. Hy moes ŉ plek kie waar nie boomstompe of beboste gebied is nie, ŉ mielieland was oraait. ŉ Regte plekkie kies en dan sou hy as hy die vliegtuig hoor dan sou hy, as dit veilig was, was hy nie gevang of iets nie, sou hy met die rooi liggie ŉ figuur agt vir die vliegtuig aangedui het en dan as hy gevang is sou hy ŉ D merk vir die vlieёnier in rooi gewys het dan weet hy gaan terug. Die man is gevang en hulle man is ook dan gevang.
Die rubberduckies met die bom alles is klaar deur, hulle is by die rivier. Alles was in plek. My man en hule man het die grate gegrou , alles is reg.
Toe, maar toe moes die kolonel finale goedkeuring kry. Want wie sou op daardie verhoog gesit het was Thabo Mbeki, Aziz Pahad, Essop, Vali Moosa, Ronnie Kasrils en Solly Smith, Dulcie September. Die hele ANC topbestuur sou op die verhoog gesit het.
As hulle die knoppie gedruk het, hulle sou dan in die berge gewees het. Daar is ŉ berg so buite Solomon Mahlangu sou hulle daar weggekruip het en net die knoppie gedruk het. Dan sou hy gehardloop het en al daai mense dood.
Toe sit ek en die kolonel by die Capital Hotel langs die swembad en nou moet hy kommunikeer oor die foon. Daar was nie selfone of sulke goeters nie, die radios sulke goed nie.
Hy bel toe. Hulle het kodewoorde gehad. Bel hy vir Magnus Malan. Sê Magnus vir hom, nee, nee, hy het nou met Pik Botha weer gepraat en toe kom dit uit dat topbestuur van ons land is al klaar besig met onderhandelinge om ŉ ooreenkoms met die ANC te kry en die NIA het klaar samesprekings met die mense gehad en dat hulle gesê het van die mense met wie hulle nou kommunikeer oor die toekoms van Suid-Afrika sit op die verhoog . Ons kan nie bekostig om hulle te verloor nie- die kontakpersone.
Die kolonel was kwaad. Ongelooflik, hy het gesê nou moet ons alles weer terugkry.
Ons het daardie voertuie verkoop in Malawi en hulle het die een voertuig vir my gegee vir my adjudant-offisier wat daar ondergronds geplaas was in Malawi.
Ons het teruggekom en ons het honderde duisende rande gespend.
Ons het dit gedoen omdat die minister dit wou gehad het. Op die nippertjie. Jy sien wat daai tyd gebeur het, ongelukkig, die polisie en die weermag het saam met mekaar gepraat, ons het met mekaar gepraat en daar was nie geheime tussen ons nie, maar nou die politici en dan ook nasionale intelligensie het hul eie agenda gehad, maar nooit vir hul eie ministers ingelig wat aangaan.
Transcript: Download (51 KB)
Audio file name/s of interview: AL3283_PTA_MCPHERSONVIC_20090209_1
Interviewer	I am talking to Vic McPherson about the planned bombing of the whole executive council of the ANC during the Arusha Conference in Tanzania. What year was this? 1985?
Vic	No, I think it was round about '85. It was long after the London bomb and the Lusaka bomb. They had their annual. It happened so that military intelligence, special force, the reconnaissance units, the South African police at that stage worked very closely. When the general, I will have to go and look who was in charge.
Vic	No, I am talking about a police general, security branch. My general, head of the security branch, called me in and said I have to go to military intelligence.
I think general Witkop Badenhorst, and, oh yes, it was actually general Joep Joubert. They had an operation planned with the annual ANC conference which was to be held in Arusha at the Solomon Mahlangu Freedom College, and they had all the means for the job, all the money was already allocated.
They had problems when it comes to, they did not have the infrastructure to get to Arusha. They knew I had an infrastructure inside Malawi and I had people to go as far as Dar es Salaam, who knew the languages, knew the Tanzanian language.
They then bought to Nissan 4x4 vehicles in Centurion. They also transported equipment in those trucks that moves containers. They then loaded the two vehicles and two rubber ducks and I do not know how they smuggled the bomb through. It was hidden somewhere, maybe in the vehicles, I do not know.
Interviewer	Why don’t you know it? Because it was a military operation and handled by them?
Vic	Yes, there was a colonel, the commander of the operation. My role was merely to create the infrastructure, provide people knowing that language. They had two members of the recces, parabats who were also explosives experts who knew how to build the bomb, who knew how to stalk the target during the night from a mountain, place the bomb under the stage and then wait for the right moment to detonate it remotely.
I mean they will be in the vicinity when they press the remote detonator, the whole stage will be blown up and many people would have died.
I had a safe house at Mantli Bay on Lake Malawi available for the team to do their planning. The vehicles were then imported into Malawi. In order for them to travel in Malawi and eventually carry on over the border, they needed Malawian number plates and licence discs. They also had to pay import taxes.
I was there when the vehicles arrived in the country. The two recces with Irish passports travelled under their real identities.
The first task was to get Malawi number plates, to register it in Malawi and to pay the import taxes for the two vehicles, 100 000 Kwacha. This would have been a problem, but I told them, no, it is no problem.
I know a woman, a fellow officer, married to a Portuguese who was staying close to Lake Malawi. I knew he had 250 000 kwacha stashed away in the ceiling of his house. He could not do anything with the money. There was nothing to buy in Malawi with the money. So he just hid it away in his roof.
All you had to do was to pay the equivalent amount in the sister’s bank account here in South Africa and then they could go on holiday in South Africa and go and buy clothes for themselves in South Africa.
They did it and head office transferred the equivalent of the 100 000 Kwacha. Say it was about R80 000. There he managed to get rid if this foreign currency, these note he had no use for.
I then told the colonel I know the head of the licensing department to register the vehicles quickly. I told him, okay, we will pay the guy at licensing a small fee, say R1 000. He agreed and within four hours the vehicles were registered.
He then said he needed frameworks to be build on to the vehicles for the rubber ducks. The rubber ducks were to be used to ferry the bomb across the river between Malawi and Zambia. The colonel, he was one of the special forces divers from Langebaan.
He will then transport the bomb up to a certain spot where my people would exactly know where to dig two deep holes for the parachutes to be concealed.
The two recces would then fly in, in a King Air plane over a huge game reserve in the area where there are enough dirt roads to land the plane. The plane would fly under the radar and then go up and drop the two men from a height of a thousand metre.
My man, a Malawian citizen, they gave him a small torch with a red light. He had to choose an area with no bushes or trees, preferable a maize field from where he would give the pilot a signal by making a figure eight with the red torch. If he may have been caught he would signal with a figure D to warn them off.
The rubber ducks with the bomb had already crossed the river. Everything was in place. My man and their man already dug the holes; everything was ready for the operation to go down.
It was only for the colonel to get the final clearance because the people on that stage were Thabo Mbeki, Aziz Pahad, Essop, Vali Moosa, Ronnie Kasrils, Solly smith and Dulcie September. The whole ANC top management were there.
There is a mountain outside the Solomon Mahlangu Freedom College where they would be hiding when they press that button. The bomb would go off and all those people would have been dead.
I was sitting with the colonel next to the swimming pool at the Capital Hotel and he had to communicate over the phone. In those days there were no luxuries like cell phones, and no radios.
He phoned Magnus Malan. Magnus told him no, no, he had talks with Pik Botha and was told that the top management of our country was already busy with talks with the ANC and that the national intelligence agency (NIA) were already engaged in talks and told him that some of those people they were negotiating with for the future of South Africa will also be on that stage. We could not afford to lose those people- the contact persons.
The colonel was furious. Unbelievable, he said now we have to get everything back from there.
We sold those vehicles in Malawi. They gave me one for my warrant-officer who was working in the country undercover.
We came back after spending hundreds of thousands of rands. We did it because that it was the minister wanted. At the last minute. You see, what happened at that time, unfortunately, the police and defence force talked to each other. There were no secrets between us, but now the politicians and also national intelligence had their own agenda, but never informed their ministers what was going on.
Translation: Download (50 KB)
Description: This interview with Vic McPherson, a former undercover policeman in the SAP Security Branch, regarding the planned bombing of the ANC executive council during the Arusha Conference in Tanzania in 1987, consists of an audio recording, transcript and English translation. This interview was conducted, transcribed and translated by De Wet Potgieter on behalf of SAHA in 2009.