SA Military Intelligence > Browse > An interview with Henk Heslinga regarding the allegations against Winnie Mandela for her alleged involvement in the death of her personal physician, Dr Abubaker Asvat, 1989.
Length of interview: 5 minutes 2 seconds
Audio file name/s of interview: AL3283_PTA_HESLINGAHENK_20091005_1
De Wet	Ek sit hier en gesels met direkteur Henk Heslinga, afgetrede polisie-offisier wat destyds, dit is nou vandag Maandag 5 Oktober 2009. Direkteur Heslinga was destyds tewwede-in-bevel van dieSoweto moord-en-roof toe Winnie Madikizela-Mandela se persoonlike dokter, dokter Abu-Baker Asvat in ŉ rooftog in sy spreekkamers vermoor is. Nou daar was baie bewerings gewees dat Winnie Mandela betrokke was by die moord en dat en dat daar oor politieke redes opdrag gegee was dat hy doodgemaak moes word. Nou Henk, kan jy net bietjie vir ons vertel die omvang van die ondersoek en wat was jou uiteindelike bevindings oor die bewerings teen Winnie Mandela. Asseblief.
Henk	Ja, so twee dae na die moord, Walter Sisulu se vrou was die ontvangsdame van dokter Asvat. Sy het vir ons ŉ beskrywing gegee van die twee verdagtes en dit was al inligting wat ons gehad het en so twee dae na die tyd het ŉ induna van ŉ hostel, ŉ Zoeloe-hostel in Soweto, het ons genader en gesê daar is twee mannetjies wat van Natal weggehardloop het vir ŉ gewapende roof en hulle kruip hier in die hostel weg en hulle het gesê dat hulle ŉ dokter doodgeskiet het in Soweto.
En ons het toe met die die Zoeloe-hoofman gereël en die volgende oggened vroeg het hy en van sy impiis die twee mannetjies die oggend daar by ons kantoor aan gebring. En ons het hulle ondervra en hulle het die moord erken, hulle het die plekke gaan uitwys en bekentenisse gaan aflê en ons kon hulle toe verbind met die moord.
Ons het nooit die vuurwapen teruggekry nie. Hulle twee was afkomstig van Nkantla in Natal waar hulle ook ŉ gewapende roof gepleeg het en waar hulle toe gesoek was.
Bewerings deur Asvat se familie is gemaak dat Winnie Mandela betrokke is omdat Asvat het vir Stompie Seipei ondersoek voordat hy dood is en toe het hy blykbaar vir Winnie aangespreek om te sê dat hierdie Stompie Seipei het baie, baie seer gekry en daar was blykbaar bietjie ŉ bekgeveg tussen hulle twee, maar die inligting het ook gekom dat Asvat en Winnie was op ŉ stadium lovers, maar dit kon nooit bewys gewees het nie.
Ek het baie saam met die Asvat-familie gewerk en sy broer ook ŉ dokter Asvat van Carletonville. Ek en hy het alle paaie probeer vreken en probeer om te bewys dat Winnie Mandela betrokke was by die moord, maar altwee die beskuldigdes het dit ontken dat hulle betrokke was met Winnie Mandela.
Ek het, die saak is toe hooggeregshof toe en albei is toe ter dood veroordeel. Ek het toe kennis gekry dat die twee gaan tereggestel word. Dit is seker maklik ŉ jaar na die vonnis en ek het besluit ek gaan dodeselle toe, ek gaan die twee sien.
Ek het toe na Pretoria na die dodeselle toe gegaan en ek het vir altwee gevra was Winnie Mandela betrokke by die saak.
Ek sê vir julle nou dat indien julle vir my ŉ beëdigde verklaring gee dat Winnie Mandela betrokke sou wees sal ons die verrigtinge, die teregstelling stop.
Die teregstelling is toe gestop hulle het op 99 amnestie gekry, of die doodstraf is toe herroep. Hulle is toe nie tereggestel nie.
Maar daar het hulle reguit vir my in die oë van die dood, het hulle vir my gesê Winnie Mandela was nie betrokke nie en ek het so voor die Versoeninhskommissie, die volbank Versoeningskommissie het e kook getuig.
Ek het dieselfde gesê en ek weet die uitspraak van die Versoeningskommissie het my getuienis aanvaar en dat hulle is tevrede dat die getuienis wat voor die kommissie was, is dat Winnie Mandela nie betrokke is met die Asvat-moord nie.
Date of interview: 9 October 2009
De Wet	I am sitting here talking to director Henk Heslinga, retired police officer who years ago, it is today Monday, 5 October 2009. Director Heslinga was the then second in charge of the Soweto murder and robbery squad when Winnie Madikizela-Mandela’s personal physician, dr. Abubaker Asvat, was murdered in his surgery.
Now, there were rumours that Winnie Mandela was involved in his death and that, because of political motives, orders were given for his assassination.
Now, Henk, can you tell us about the investigation and what was your final verdict about the allegations against Winnie Mandela.
Henk	Yes, about two days after the murder, Walter Sisulu’s wife was dr. Asvat’s receptionist. She gave us a description about the two assailants and that was all we had to work on. About two days after it a induna from a hostel, a Zulu hostel in Soweto, approached us and said that there were two youngsters who fled from Natal after a armed robbery and were hiding in the hostel and admitted that they had shot dead a doctor in Soweto.
We arranged with the Zulu chief and early the next morning he and a impi brought the two youngsters to our offices. We interrogated them and they admitted to the murder, they showed us the murder scene and gave statements and we could link them to the murder.
We never retrieved the firearm. They were from Nkandla in Natal where they were wanted for an armed robbery.
The Asvat family alleged that Winnie Mandela was involved in the killing because Asvat treated Stompie Seipei before he died and he apparently told Winnie that Stompie had severe injuries and he apparently had words with Winnie, but there were also claims that Asvat and Winnie were lovers at one stage, but this could never be proved.
I worked very closely with the Asvat family and with his brother, also a doctor from Carletonville. The two of us looked at every possible avenue to prove that Winnie Mandela was involved with the murder, but both accused denied this that they were involved with Winnie Mandela.
The case went to the supreme court and both of them were sentenced to death. I then received information that the two were due to be executed. This was more than a year after they were sentenced and I decided to visit them on death row.
I travelled to Pretoria to the death row and asked both of them if Winnie Mandela was involved in the killing.
I told them if they were prepared to give me sworn statements that Winnie Mandela was involved, I would be able to stop the executions.
The execution was subsequently stopped and they received amnesty at the last minute when the death penalty was abolished.
But that day in the eyes of the death they again reiterated that Winnie Mandela was not involved and I also testified to this effect before the TRC, a full bench of the TRC I testified.
I testified to this effect and I know that the TRC had accepted my testimony that Winnie Mandela was not involved.
Description: This interview with Henk Heslinga, a former head of the Pretoria murder and robbery squad, double agent, and member of the Goldstone Commission, regarding the allegations against Winnie Mandela for her alleged involvement in the death of her personal physician, Dr Abubaker Asvat in 1989, consists of an audio recording, transcript and English translation. This interview was conducted, transcribed and translated by De Wet Potgieter on behalf of SAHA in 2009.