The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?
Thread: The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?
Aug 12th 2017, 05:07 PM #1
It's neither. It is or was, Christ Jesus' Last Passover-Suffering.
Aug 12th 2017, 05:54 PM #2
Re: The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?
Matthew 12.40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
This seems to speak of the grave.
Aug 12th 2017, 10:00 PM #3
[COLOR=#3E3E3E]The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?
The heart of the earth is the heart of the earth. It is what is there that counts - Hades, the place of the souls of dead men. If you string these three scriptures together, which all speak of Christ's death, where He went and how long He stayed there, a grade-school student will tell that our Lord Jesus died, descended, went to Hades, which, if He "descended", was in the heart of the earth, but that God did not allow Him to stay there and raised Him after three days in Hades in the heart of the earth.
9 "(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended FIRST into the lower parts of the earth?
40 "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
24 "Whom God hath raised UP, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in HADES, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."
Aug 13th 2017, 03:29 PM #4
Or maybe it seems to speak of what's in the mind of the reader or writer?
"HEART of the earth" is figurative for or of heart-felt or "passionate" experience, alive, conscious, aware, knowingly -- 'the Passion of Christ' BEFORE He died or his body was buried.
Nag een : Dit was nag : Uitgegaan [Eksodus 12:12,42]
30 Nadat hy dan die brood gevat het, het daardie een
λαβὼν οὖν τὸ ψωμίον ἐκεῖνος
He then having received the sop
dadelik uitgegaan: EN DIT WAS NAG.
ἐξῆλθεν εὐθύς· ἦν δὲ νύξ.
went immediately out: and it was night.
31 Toe hy dan uitgegaan het, het Jesus gespreek:
Ὅτε οὖν ἐξῆλθεν, λέγει Ἰησοῦς
NOU IS DIE SEUN VAN DIE MENS VERHEERLIK
Νῦν ἐδοξάσθη ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου,
EN IS GOD IN HOM, VERHEERLIK.
καὶ ὁ Θεὸς ἐδοξάσθη ἐν αὐτῷ·
AND GOD IS GLORIFIED IN HIM.
En hulle het ’n lied gesing en uitgegaan na die Olyfberg.
when they had sung a hymn, they went out unto the mount of Olives.
En na die sing van ’n loflied het hulle uitgegaan na die Olyfberg.
when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
Nag een : Die Uur Het Gekom
Dit het Jesus gespreek, en Hy het sy oë opgehef
Ταῦτα ἐλάλησεν Ἰησοῦς, καὶ ἐπάρας τοὺς ὀφθαλμοὺς αὐτοῦ
These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven,
na die hemel en gesê: Vader, DIE UUR HET GEKOM:
εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν εἶπεν Πάτερ, ἐλήλυθεν ἡ ὥρα·
and said, Father, THE HOUR IS COME
verheerlik U Seun sodat U Seun U ook kan verheerlik.
δόξασόν σου τὸν Υἱόν, ἵνα ὁ Υἱὸς δοξάσῃ σέ
glorify they Son that thy Son also may glorify thee.
Nou word die Seun van die Mens verheerlik, en God
Νῦν ἐδοξάσθη ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, καὶ ὁ Θεὸς
Now is the Son of man glorified, and God
word verheerlik in Hom. 32 As God in Hom verheerlik word,
ἐδοξάσθη ἐν αὐτῷ· 32 εἰ ὁ Θεὸς ἐδοξάσθη ἐν αὐτῷ,
is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in Him
sal God Hom verheerlik in Hom. Hy sal Hom nóú verheerlik.
καὶ ὁ Θεὸς δοξάσει αὐτὸν ἐν αὑτῷ, καὶ εὐθὺς δοξάσει αὐτόν.
Nag een : Volgelinge Versoek Jesus
Toe daardie een (Judas) dan die brood geneem het,
He then (Judas,) having received the sop,
het hy dadelik uitgegaan: En dit was NAG.
ἐξῆλθεν εὐθύς· ἦν δὲ νύξ. (Eksodus 12:8,12,41,42 (ek gehs Aiguptou Nuktos)
went immediately out: and it was NIGHT
31a En toe hy uitgegaan het, sê Jesus:
Ὅτε οὖν ἐξῆλθε, λέγει ὁ Ἰησοῦς·
33 Kinders, nog net ’n klein tydjie is Ek by julle.
τεκνία, ἔτι μικρὸν μεθ’ ὑμῶν εἰμι·
Little children, yet a little while I am with you.
Julle sal My soek; en soos Ek vir die Jode gesê het,
ζητήσετέ με, καὶ καθὼς εἶπον τοῖς Ἰουδαίοις ὅτι
Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews,
sê Ek nou vir julle, waar Ek heengaan, kan julle nie kom nie—
καὶ ὑμῖν λέγω ἄρτι. Ὅπου ἐγὼ ὑπάγω ὑμεῖς οὐ δύνασθε ἐλθεῖν,
so now I say unto you, whither I go, ye cannot come;
34 ’n Nuwe Gebod gee Ek julle: dat julle mekaar moet lief hê—
ἐντολὴν καινὴν δίδωμι ὑμῖν, ἵνα ἀγαπᾶτε ἀλλήλους,
A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another;
dat soos Ek julle liefgehad het, julle ook mekaar sal liefhê.
καθὼς ἠγάπησα ὑμᾶς ἵνα καὶ ὑμεῖς ἀγαπᾶτε ἀλλήλους.
35 Hieraan sal almal weet dat julle My dissipels is:
By this shall all know that ye are my disciples,
as julle liefde het onder mekaar.
ἐὰν ἀγάπην ἔχητε ἐν ἀλλήλοις.
36 Simon Petrus vra Hom: Here, waarheen gaan U?
Λέγει αὐτῷ Σίμων Πέτρος Κύριε, ποῦ ὑπάγεις;
Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou?
Jesus het verduidelik: Waar Ek heengaan,
ἀπεκρίθη Ἰησοῦς Ὅπου ὑπάγω
Jesus answered him, Whither I go,
sal jy My nie nou kan volg nie; maar jy sál, láter, volg!
οὐ δύνασαί μοι νῦν ἀκολουθῆσαι, ἀκολουθήσεις δὲ ὕστερον.
thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.
37 Petrus sê vir Hom: Here, Hoekom kan ek U nie
λέγει αὐτῷ Πέτρος Κύριε, διὰ τί οὐ δύναμαί σοι
Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I
nou al volg nie? My siel sal ek om U onthalwe neerlê!
ἀκολουθῆσαι ἄρτι; τὴν ψυχήν μου ὑπὲρ σοῦ θήσω.
now follow thee? I will lay down my life for thy sake.
38 Jesus het geantwoord: Sal jy jou lewe vir Mý, offer?!
(ἀπεκρίθη αὐτῷ) ἀποκρίνεται Ἰησοῦς Τὴν ψυχήν σου ὑπὲρ ἐμοῦ θήσεις;
Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake?
Voorwaar, voorwaar Ek sê vir jou, die haan sal nog nie
ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, οὐ μὴ ἀλέκτωρ
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not
gekraai het nie of jy sal My driemaal verloën het!
φωνήσῃ ἕως οὗ ἀρνήσῃ (ἀπαρνήσῃ) με τρίς.
crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.
...Johannes 14 tot 17...
Nag een : Verdriet Vergeet Jesus [Genesis 37:35; 42:38]
Toe kom hulle in ’n tuin met die naam Getsemane.
Καὶ ἔρχονται εἰς χωρίον οὗ τὸ ὄνομα Γεθσημανεί (Γεθσημανῆ),
And they came to a place which was named Gethsemane:
En (Jesus) sê vir sy dissipels: Sit julle hier terwyl Ek gaan bid.
καὶ λέγει τοῖς μαθηταῖς (αὐτοῦ) Καθίσατε ὧδε ἕως προσεύξωμαι.
and he saith to his disciples, Sit ye here while I shall pray.
33 Toe neem Hy Petrus en Jakobus en Johannes saam met Hom
καὶ παραλαμβάνει τὸν Πέτρον καὶ Ἰάκωβον καὶ Ἰωάνην μετ’ αὐτοῦ,
And he taketh with him Peter and James and John,
en begin erg ontsteld en terneergedruk raak.
καὶ ἤρξατο ἐκθαμβεῖσθαι καὶ ἀδημονεῖν,
and began to be sore perplexed, and distressed;
34 En Hy sê vir hulle: My siel is smartvol tot die dood toe.
καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς Περίλυπός ἐστιν ἡ ψυχή μου ἕως θανάτου·
And he saith unto them, exceeding unto death sorrowful is My soul:
Bly julle hier en waak!
μείνατε ὧδε καὶ γρηγορεῖτε.
35 Hy gaan bietjie aan en val op die grond
καὶ προελθὼν μικρὸν ἔπιπτεν (ἔπεσεν) ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς,
And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground,
en bid dat as dit moontlik is die uur by Hom mog verbykom.
καὶ προσηύχετο ἵνα εἰ δυνατόν ἐστιν παρέλθῃ ἀπ’ αὐτοῦ ἡ ὥρα,
and prayed that, if ... possible his hour might come [pass].
[ἀπὁ ‘at’ Mk7:4; 15:38,40 Mt13:35; ‘in’ 1Jn1:1 Lk16:30; 17:29
Ro11:25 Hb12:25 Mk10:20 2Thes3:3; ‘on’ Rv21:13; ‘of’ Acts20:26 Mk12:2]
36 En Hy sê: My Vader o Vader, alles is moontlik vir U: Bring
καὶ ἔλεγεν Ἀββᾶ ὁ Πατήρ, πάντα δυνατά σοι· παρένεγκε
And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take
hierdie beker by my aan; maar nie wat Ek nie, maar U wil!
τὸ ποτήριον τοῦτο ἀπ’ ἐμοῦ· ἀλλ’ οὐ τί ἐγὼ θέλω ἀλλὰ τί σύ.
away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
37 Toe Hy (van gebed terug-) kom en hulle aan die slaap vind,
καὶ καὶ ἔρχεται καὶ εὑρίσκει αὐτοὺς καθεύδοντας,
And he cometh and findeth them sleeping,
vra Hy Petrus: Simon, slaap jy? Kon jy nie een uur waak nie?
καὶ λέγει τῷ Πέτρῳ Σίμων, καθεύδεις; οὐκ ἴσχυσας μίαν ὥραν γρηγορῆσαι;
and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?
38 Waak en bid dat julle nie in versoeking kom nie!
γρηγορεῖτε καὶ προσεύχεσθε, ἵνα μὴ (εἰσ) ἔλθητε εἰς πειρασμόν·
Watch ye and pray lest ye enter into temptation.
Die gees is wel gewillig, maar die vlees is swak.
τὸ μὲν πνεῦμα πρόθυμον, ἡ δὲ σὰρξ ἀσθενής.
39 Hy het toe weer gaan bid, dieselfde gebed se woorde.
καὶ πάλιν ἀπελθὼν προσηύξατο τὸν αὐτὸν λόγον εἰπών.
40 En Hy het teruggekom en hulle weer, aan die slaap gekry,
καὶ πάλιν ἐλθὼν (ὑποστρέψας) εὗρεν αὐτοὺς καθεύδοντας,
And when he returned, he found them asleep again,
want hulle oë was swaar* van die verdriet [*oinohi bebarehotes ‘bleary’]
ἦσαν γὰρ αὐτῶν οἱ ὀφθαλμοὶ καταβαρυνόμενοι,
(for their eyes were heavy,)
sodat hulle nie geweet het wát om Hom te antwoord nie.
καὶ οὐκ ᾔδεισαν τί ἀποκριθῶσιν αὐτῷ.
neither wist they what to answer him.
14:41a En Jesus kom die derde keer en sê vir hulle:
καὶ ἔρχεται τὸ τρίτον καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς
And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them,
Slaap voort en rus uit, dis genoeg!
Καθεύδετε τὸ λοιπὸν καὶ ἀναπαύεσθε· ἀπέχει·
Sleep on now and take your rest; it is enough.
Toe gaan Jesus met hulle na ’n plek bekend as Getsemane.
Τότε ἔρχεται μετ’ αὐτῶν ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἰς χωρίον λεγόμενον Γεθσημανεί,
Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane.
En Jesus sê vir die dissipels: Sit julle hier totdat
καὶ λέγει τοῖς μαθηταῖς Καθίσατε αὐτοῦ ἕως οὗ
And he saith unto the disciples: Sit ye here while
Ek daar oorkant gaan bid het.
ἀπελθὼν ἐκεῖ προσεύξωμαι.
I go and pray yonder.
37 Toe vat Hy Petrus en Jakobus en Johannes saam met Hom.
καὶ παραλαβὼν τὸν Πέτρον καὶ τοὺς δύο υἱοὺς Ζεβεδαίου
And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee,
Hy het begin bedroef en benoud raak.
(καὶ) ἤρξατο λυπεῖσθαι καὶ ἀδημονεῖν.
and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.
38 Toe sê Jesus vir hulle: My siel is oorvol smart
τότε λέγει αὐτοῖς Περίλυπός ἐστιν ἡ ψυχή μου
Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful,
tot die dood toe. Bly julle hier en waak saam met My!
ἕως θανάτου· μείνατε ὧδε καὶ γρηγορεῖτε μετ’ ἐμοῦ.
even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
39 Toe gaan Hy bietjie verder en val neer op sy aangesig
καὶ προελθὼν μικρὸν ἔπεσεν (ἔπιπτεν) ἐπὶ πρόσωπον αὐτοῦ
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, [Genesis 37:35; 42:38]
en sê terwyl Hy bid, My Vader, as dit moontlik is,
and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible,
laat hierdie beker by My verbykom!
παρελθάτω (παρελθέτω) ἀπ’ ἐμοῦ τὸ ποτήριον τοῦτο·
let this cup come by me / at me pass.
Slegs, nie soos Ek nie, maar soos U wil!
πλὴν οὐχ ὡς ἐγὼ θέλω ἀλλ’ ὡς σύ.
nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
40 Toe kom Hy by die dissipels en vind hulle aan die slaap.
καὶ ἔρχεται πρὸς τοὺς μαθητὰς καὶ εὑρίσκει αὐτοὺς καθεύδοντας,
And he cometh unto his disciples, and findeth them asleep,
En Hy sê vir Petrus: Hoekom was julle nie instaat om
καὶ λέγει τῷ Πέτρῳ Οὕτως οὐκ ἰσχύσατε
and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch
één uur wakker te bly saam met My nie?
μίαν ὥραν γρηγορῆσαι μετ’ ἐμοῦ;
with me one hour?
41 Waak dan en bid dat julle nie in versoeking kom nie:
γρηγορεῖτε καὶ προσεύχεσθε, ἵνα μὴ εἰσέλθητε εἰς πειρασμόν·
want die gees is wel gewillig, maar die vlees (is) swak.
42 Wéér, vir die tweede keer, het Hy eenkant gegaan en gebid en gesê:
πάλιν ἐκ δευτέρου ἀπελθὼν προσηύξατο λέγων
He went again the second time, and prayed, saying,
My Vader, aangesien hierdie beker nie by My kan verbygaan
Πάτερ μου, εἰ οὐ δύναται τοῦτο (τὸ ποτήριον) παρελθεῖν
O my Father, if this cup may not come my way
anders as dat Ek dit drink nie: Laat U wil geskied!
ἐὰν μὴ αὐτὸ πίω, γενηθήτω τὸ θέλημά σου.
except I drink it, thy will be done.
43 En toe Hy terugkom, vind Hy hulle lê weer en slaap,
καὶ ἐλθὼν πάλιν εὗρεν αὐτοὺς καθεύδοντας,
And he came and found them asleep again:
want hulle oë was swaar. [*oinohi bebarehotes ‘bleary’]
ἦσαν γὰρ αὐτῶν οἱ ὀφθαλμοὶ βεβαρημένοι.
for their eyes were heavy.
44 Toe het Hy weg van hulle af gegaan en het weer gebid
καὶ ἀφεὶς αὐτοὺς πάλιν ἀπελθὼν προσηύξατο
And he left them, and went away again, and prayed
vir die derde maal, (en) dieselfde woord(e) gespreek.
ἐκ τρίτου, τὸν αὐτὸν λόγον εἰπὼν πάλιν.
the third time, saying the same words.
45 Daarna kom Hy by die dissipels en sê vir hulle:
τότε ἔρχεται πρὸς τοὺς μαθητὰς (αὐτοῦ) καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς
Then cometh he to his disciples and saith unto them,
Slaap aan, julle, en rus! Kyk, die UUR is naby—HIER!
Καθεύδετε λοιπὸν καὶ ἀναπαύεσθε· ἰδοὺ ἤγγικεν ἡ ὥρα
Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand
dat die Seun van die Mens verraai word in sondaarshande.
καὶ ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου παραδίδοται εἰς χεῖρας ἁμαρτωλῶν.
Johannes 18:1,2 2Kronieke 29:16c
Dit gesê, het Jesus uitgegaan saam met sy dissipels
Ταῦτα εἰπὼν Ἰησοῦς ἐξῆλθεν σὺν τοῖς μαθηταῖς αὐτοῦ
When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples
oor die spruit Kedron waar ’n tuin was [Genesis 32:22]
πέραν τοῦ χειμάρρου τῶν Κέδρων, ὅπου ἦν κῆπος,
over the brook Cedron, where was a garden,
waarin Hyself en sy dissipels ingegaan het.
εἰς ὃν εἰσῆλθεν αὐτὸς καὶ οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ.
into which he entered, and his disciples.
2 Judas wat Hom verloën het, het ook die plek geken
ᾔδει δὲ καὶ Ἰούδας ὁ παραδιδοὺς αὐτὸν τὸν τόπον,
And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place:
omdat Jesus dikwels daar saamgekom het met sy dissipels.
ὅτι πολλάκις συνήχθη Ἰησοῦς ἐκεῖ μετὰ τῶν μαθητῶν αὐτοῦ.
for Jesus oft-times resorted thither with his disciples.
Hy het uitgegaan en soos altyd na die Olyfberg koers gevat.
Καὶ ἐξελθὼν ἐπορεύθη κατὰ τὸ ἔθος εἰς τὸ ὄρος τῶν Ἐλαιῶν·
And he came out, and went as he was wont, to the mount of Olives;
En sy dissipels het Hom soëntoe gevolg.
40 En toe Hy op die plek kom, sê Hy vir hulle:
γενόμενος δὲ ἐπὶ τοῦ τόπου εἶπεν αὐτοῖς
And when he was at the place, he said unto them,
Julle moet bid om nie in versoeking te kom nie.
41 Self het Hy omtrent ’n klipgooi weg van hulle af gegaan en
καὶ αὐτὸς ἀπεσπάσθη ἀπ’ αὐτῶν ὡσεὶ λίθου βολήν, καὶ
And he was withdrawn from them about a stone’s cast, and
gekniel 42 en gebid: Vader, as U wil, bring hierdie
θεὶς τὰ γόνατα 42 προσηύχετο Πάτερ, εἰ βούλει παρένεγκε τοῦτο
kneeled down 42 and prayed, Father, if thou be willing,
beker by My verby. Egter nie my wil nie, maar U wil, geskied!
τὸ ποτήριον ἀπ’ ἐμοῦ· πλὴν μὴ τὸ θέλημά μου ἀλλὰ τὸ σὸν γινέσθω.
remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43 ’n Engel uit die hemel het aan Hom verskyn en Hom versterk.
ὤφθη δὲ αὐτῷ ἄγγελος ἀπ’ οὐρανοῦ ἐνισχύων αὐτόν.
44 Toe kom Hy in sware stryd. Hy het met inspanning gebid
καὶ γενόμενος ἐν ἀγωνίᾳ ἐκτενέστερον προσηύχετο·
tot sy sweet soos bloedklonte wat ter helle val, geword het.
καὶ ἐγένετο ὁ ἱδρὼς αὐτοῦ ὡσεὶ θρόμβοι αἵματος ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν καταβαίνοντες.
and his sweat was as it were drops of blood falling down to the ground.
45 Hy het van gebed opgestaan en by die dissipels gekom
καὶ ἀναστὰς ἀπὸ τῆς προσευχῆς, ἐλθὼν πρὸς τοὺς μαθητὰς
And when he rose up from prayer and was come to his disciples,
en hulle van die kopseer aan die slaap gekry.
εὗρεν κοιμωμένους αὐτοὺς ἀπὸ τῆς λύπης,
46 Toe verwyt Hy hulle: Wat lê julle en slaap?
καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Τί καθεύδετε;
and said unto them, Why sleep ye?
Staan op en bid dat julle nie in versoeking kom nie!
ἀναστάντες προσεύχεσθε, ἵνα μὴ εἰσέλθητε εἰς πειρασμόν.
rise and pray, lest ye come into temptation.
Aug 13th 2017, 03:35 PM #5
Absolutely true. But words are defined by their context. A single word can have several distinct meanings.
So in this context we're talking about Christ *dying.* Instantly our thought goes to *burial.* That's what the "heart of the earth" seems to be speaking of.
Aug 13th 2017, 04:13 PM #6
Is Jesus ~in this context talking about Him *dying*~? Or about Jonah, ~dying~? No; Jonah neither died in the fish nor for three days and three nights; he was very much aware and so gave an alive description of his DEATH'S ANXIETY. So do the Gospels give a living impression of Jesus' DEATH'S SUFFERING or ANXIETY. Jesus' Suffering though, wasn't of disobedience like Jonah's, but OF OBEDIENCE, of obedience of the Saviour of the world, and therefore of Jesus' once for all LIVING AND WILLING, DIVINE, Suffering of obedience on behalf of those whom He became "like Jonah was in the heart of the earth".
Therefore, ~Instantly our thought goes to the Passover-of-Yahweh-Suffering the darkness of eternal hell as "Our Passover" in our place. That's what Jesus EXPERIENCED as well as expressed in prayer and communion with his heavenly Father. John 17:1,2 e.g..
Aug 13th 2017, 09:51 PM #7
Would you tie the three into this?
Aug 14th 2017, 08:50 AM #8
The "SIGN" of Jonah is given because, as you said, Jonah did not die. NOR DOES THE SOUL OF MAN. The body dies physically, but the "death of the soul" means "lack of well-being" (Vine) - not unconsciousness. Our Lord Jesus suffered the "death of the soul" throughout His ministry as Isaiah 53:3 tells us that He was "a Man of sorrows", and from Gethsemane, were Matthew 26:38 and Mark 14:34 tell us that Jesus admitted, "... My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: ... .", to His last breath on the cross, our Lord suffered the "death of the soul". But He suffered the death of the Body as keenly after the beatings and crucifixion of twenty hours or so.
There is no allegorizing away these deaths. They are real and are the portion of every man, and mean exactly what they are. Our Lord died physically and was placed in a Sepulcher. He died in SOUL for three and one half years, reaching a crescendo on Mount Olives and Golgotha. After that, He descended to Hades and instituted Paradise. The very word "Paradise" PRECLUDES ANY FURTHER SUFFERING. Our Lord, the thief of the cross next to Him, David, Abraham and people like Samuel RESTED in Paradise in Hades - a real place.
Aug 14th 2017, 01:28 PM #9
Exactly right. Jesus is drawing a comparison between Jonah's experience and his experience.
Jonah -->> three days and three nights
Jesus -->> three days and three nights
Jonah -->> belly of a huge fish
Jesus -->> in the heart of the earth
The reader is invited to compare the belly of a huge fish with the heart of the earth and draw a conclusion from the comparison. Let's suspend for the moment the question of whether Jonah was inside a fish or a whale and simply suppose for the sake of the discussion that Jonah was inside a sea creature large enough to have swallowed Jonah whole. It is noteworthy, I think, to consider that the sea creature itself was inside the ocean, and that Jesus' intended us to draw a comparison between the ocean and the heart of the earth. Both of these things are associated with burial, as we see in the book of Revelation.
At the final judgment, the sea gives up the dead which were in it, and from this we understand that the sea is one of two places where the dead are kept, the other place is "Hades", or in Hebrew "Sheol", i.e. the grave. So, in a sense, Jonah spent three days and three nights in one of the two places where the dead are kept, i.e. in a sea creature in the sea. Jesus also spent three days and three nights in the other place where the dead are kept, i.e. in the heart of the earth.
Aug 14th 2017, 09:55 PM #10
I get what you're saying, but I do think Jonah's experience was a kind of "death" experience. He sacrificed himself by having himself tossed out of the boat. He should've died.
This was a picture of Christ's self-sacrifice for our sin--not for his own, of course. And so, like Jonah, he cast himself into the "heart of the earth," or into the grave.
At the same time I wouldn't dismiss the idea of the "heart of the earth" reflecting a kind of emotional distress, an anxiety in the midst of this death experience. It certainly had to be part of it, since this was God's emotional distress over us!
Aug 15th 2017, 04:56 AM #11
Do all of you really believe Jonah didn't die? He could have been supernaturally kept alive without oxygen for three days, but the evidence suggests otherwise. Also, to suggest Jonah did not die, is to suggest Jesus did not really die either. Some call that the swoon theory.
Jonah 2:1 From deep in the realm of the dead I called for help,
and you listened to my cry....
Are the roots of the mountains in the ocean? Of course not. Jonah was in Hades. The same place Jesus went, the bottomless pit. The heart of the earth. Dead for three days and three nights, then alive again. That is the sign of Jonah!
Aug 15th 2017, 11:24 AM #12
I really believe Jonah didn't die. The God Who made His creature, and the Laws that govern it, is fully capable of making an exception when He wants to. Twice in the Old Testament the earth stood still on its axis. Our Lord Jesus walked on water and so did Peter (for a while). Daniel is not appetizing for caged lions, and Shadrach and his brethren were not incinerated by a super-heated fire. And finally, the diverse resurrections show a God Who possesses not only power over the Laws of His creature, but is able to restore all men from death to life.
Jonah HAD to stay alive as he is a "SIGN" of the SOUL of Jesus which might rest in Hades, but is fully conscious and intelligent, as the narrative in Luke 16 and Revelation 6:9 shows the SOULS of the dead to be.
And oh... by the way, the "roots" of the mountains are in the sea. The King James uses the word "bottoms" which is more accurate. The Hebrew word means "where it is cut off". The same word is used twice more to describe things in the Temple that had BASES.
Aug 22nd 2017, 02:26 PM #13
I like what Gerhard Ebersoehn is saying here.
I do not believe we need to know everything axactly as it is ( as to the where abouts of places)
but we do need to know Him!
Aug 22nd 2017, 07:17 PM #14
Thank you T P..........................
Aug 22nd 2017, 09:32 PM #15
Of course God can do anything. He could have kept Jonah alive. He could keep a person alive who swallowed a nuclear bomb. Nothing is impossible for God, but that isn't the point.
If you think Jonah didn't die, are you suggesting Jesus didn't really die on the cross either?
How do you deal with the fact that Jonah prayed from the belly of Sheol and was brought up from the pit? Is this prayer not the prophecy of Jesus' prayer after death?
Jonah's death and resurrection after three days and three nights is the whole point Jesus was making, I believe.
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