Engineers and woo

{{bronze}}
[[File:Xkcd1570.png|thumb|right|360px|''Engineer Syllogism'' per [[xkcd]]]]
{{pseudosciencenav}}
{{cquote|Man can, without difficulty, combine [[Crank|crack-brained beliefs about the world]] with a confident mastery of contemporary high technology.|||{{wpl|Eric Hobsbawm}}<ref>
{{cite book
 | last1 = Hobsbawm
 | first1 = Eric J.
 | title = The Age of Extremes: The Short Twentieth Century, 1914–1991
 | url = https://books.google.com/books?id=x9xmAAAAMAAJ
 | edition = 6
 | publisher = Michael Joseph
 | publication-date = 1994
 | page = 118
 | isbn = 9780718133078
 | access-date = 2019-01-03
 | quote = Fascism was triumphantly anti-liberal. It also provided the proof that man can, without difficulty, combine crack-brained beliefs about the world with a confident mastery of contemporary high technology.
}}
</ref>}}

An '''engineer''' is a professional trained in the invention, design, and construction of various useful items, from roads and bridges to computer software.<ref>[https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/engineering Engineering], Merriam Webster: "...the application of science and mathematics by which the properties of matter and the sources of energy in nature are made useful to people".</ref> In other words, [[engineering]] puts [[science]] {{wpl|Applied science|into practice|,}} designing the stuff that makes civilization.<ref group=note>Sometimes excluding certain less-engineered components of civilization, such as art, literature, [[law]], {{wpl|bureaucracy||,}} [[religion]]...</ref>

Most individual engineers are as sensible and reasonable as anyone, but engineers as a group have a noted tendency to pontificate on things well outside their area of expertise, to the point of actual [[fallacy]]. This phenomenon is so prevalent that users of [[talk.origins]] have come up with the [[Salem Hypothesis]], which predicts that any [[creationist]] claiming scientific expertise or advanced degrees is likely to be an engineer.<ref>Myers, P. Z. (2006, Feb 22) [http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/02/the_salem_hypothesis.php The Salem hypothesis]. ''Pharyngula''.</ref> Of course, [[Confusion of the inverse|this does NOT mean that engineers are likely to be creationists]].

It's appropriate in a way that engineers, being people charged with building things, might have a predisposition toward [[crank]]ery.

The phenomenon also applies to some fields of computer science, such as software engineering, which are more applied [[mathematics]] than science.

Quantitative evidence of this is lacking, but [[Argumentum ad populum|it has been noted on the Internet frequently]].

==Null hypothesis==
The [[null hypothesis]] is that engineers are approximately as prone to woo as other people of comparable educational level. If the null hypothesis is true, it should be expected that among the creationists/[[homeopath]]s/etc. who can claim masters or doctoral degrees, about 15-20% are engineers, just as in the general populace.<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20130723073322/https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_ctb.asp Graduate Fields of Study, January 2013]. Archived from the National Center for Education Statistics, 23 July 2013.</ref>

==How engineers think==
{{cquote|The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. Because when they do, they turn into huge assholes.|||Probably not {{wpl|H. P. Lovecraft}}}}
Engineers are neither scientists nor mathematicians.<ref group=note>Except, of course, when they are also scientists or mathematicians. Professors of engineering do a lot of science, for example.</ref> They are ''engineers''. They ''use'' science and math, but so do many other common professions, from barbers to doctors. Every other field of knowledge is interesting insofar as it is useful raw material for engineering. Engineers care about results in the real world, and ''get'' these results; other people are observably utterly [[delusion]]al about technology and probably shouldn't be allowed near scissors.<ref group=note>Every engineer knows that ''Dilbert'' is a documentary.</ref> This breeds a certain arrogance.

The vast majority of engineers are perfectly reasonable and are fans of science and mathematics, even though those fields are not what they do. But respecting science and mathematics is not always a requirement of the job. Indeed, the [[mathematical]] standards adopted by engineers are not always high. An engineer's job is to solve problems. Engineers don't care about how or why something works; they care about ''whether or not it works''. This means they're willing to try all sorts of things to see what sticks, and if something ''appears'' to work due to sheer [[coincidence]], or the causative mechanism behind something successfully solving a problem is [[Correlation does not imply causation|misunderstood]] or glossed over... well, that's how [[magical thinking]] tends to start.

==Religious conservatism==
Engineers are measurably more politically [[conservative]] than scientists, at least in the [[United States]]. A 1972 study<ref>Everett Carll Ladd, Jr. and Seymour Martin Lipset ''[http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=85792987 The Divided Academy: Professors and Politics]''</ref> showed professors of engineering describing themselves as "deeply [[religious]]" and "strongly conservative" more than those in any other field. Applying the same analysis to data gathered in 1984 found 46% of male American engineers describing themselves as both conservative and religious, compared with 22% of scientists.

Explanations for this are limited.

==Creationism==
{{See also|Salem Hypothesis}}
{{cquote|Best answer: Science doesn't have access to truth, engineering does.|||Anonymous Coward 14535673, [[Godlike Productions]]<ref>Anonymous Coward 14535673, [https://archive.is/zorve Frustrated by theories about Earth/Universe.] 29 April 2012. Archived from the original at [http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1852874/pg1#30888459 godlikeproductions.com.]</ref>}}
Many prominent figures in the creationism movement are or have been engineers, for example [[Henry Morris]] of the [[Institute for Creation Research]].<ref>Patterson, J. W. (1982). [http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/creation/thermo_patterson.html An engineer looks at the creationist movement]. ''Proceedings of the Iowa Academy of Science'' 89(2), 55-58.</ref> One hypothesis is that creationists single out their engineers in an attempt to pull off [[argumentum ad verecundiam]], and they don't have many in their ranks who are more reputable than an engineer.

When petitions have been sent out that say "these scientists reject [[evolution]]", the majority aren't qualified biologists, but are from completely unrelated professions, such as engineers, medical doctors, or even veterinary surgeons ([[Creation Ministries International]]'s ''[[CMI list of scientists alive today who accept the biblical account of creation|List of scientists alive today who accept the biblical account of creation]]'' is a good example). Importantly, this isn't exactly a [[Courtier's Reply]], and it certainly isn't "elitism"; these are people who you'd expect to have studied the evidence in great detail and thus are expected to have more intellectual clout on a subject, knowing what the latest research is and knowing how the [[theory]] actually works, rather than a simplified version taken from blogs and bad [[popular science]] books. People wouldn't argue that someone with no formal [[law]] training is as qualified as a lawyer to make a prosecution or defence, right? Similarly, you'd expect anyone with a valid comment on evolution to have formal biology training.

It bears mentioning that engineering largely concerns itself with stuff that happened during the last decade. Therefore, an engineer won't trip over his conceptions about the [[age of the Earth]] in the same way a [[geologist]] or [[astrophysicist]] would. Also, in engineering, everything is designed and the designer can be tracked down, giving the engineering student less opportunity to blurt [[Goddidit]] at an inopportune moment. These facts combine to let more creationists in engineering actually complete their degrees.

==Terrorism==
As with creationists, there is anecdotal evidence of a disproportionate number of [[terrorists]] being engineers.<ref>[http://www.slate.com/id/2240157 Build-a-Bomber: Why do so many terrorists have engineering degrees?] (Benjamin Popper, ''Slate'', 2009-12-29)</ref> In a study of [[Islamic]] terrorists, Gambetta and Hertog corrected for demographics (Muslim countries train more engineers) yet still found disproportionate numbers: of 178 college-educated terrorists with known degrees, fully 78 of 178 (43.8%) were engineers, while Islamic Studies (!) came distantly second at 34 of 178 (19.1%). Of note, merely 2.1% of the populations of the countries of origin were engineers. And in fact, among Islamic terrorists trained in the West, nearly 60 percent came from engineering.<ref>Diego Gambetta and Steffen Hertog, "[http://www.nuff.ox.ac.uk/users/gambetta/Engineers%20of%20Jihad.pdf Engineers of Jihad]" (PDF)</ref> Gambetta and Hertog write that engineers may fit the tendencies of right-wing extremism &mdash; [[Jonanism]] (all enemies are one and the same) and {{wpl|Splitting (psychology)|splitting}} (there is only good and [[evil]]). To support this, they quote [[Mahmoud Ahmadinejad]], Ph.D. in transport engineering and one-time president of [[Iran]]:

{{quotebox|In some discussions I told [those inside Iran pressing for compromise over fears the United States could launch a military strike because of the nuclear standoff with the West]: [[Dunning-Kruger effect|I am an engineer and I am examining the issue.]] They do not dare wage war against us and I base this on a double proof […] [First] I tell them: [[Argument from authority|I am an engineer and I am a master in calculation and tabulation.]] [[Deepity|I draw up tables. For hours, I write out different hypotheses. I reject, I reason. I reason with planning and I make a conclusion.]] They cannot make problems for Iran. [Second] I believe in what [[God]] says. God says that those who walk in the path of righteousness will be victorious. [[RationalWiki|What reason can you have for believing God will not keep this promise?]]}}

Phil Goetz hypothesised on [[LessWrong]]<ref>[http://lesswrong.com/lw/18b/reason_as_memetic_immune_disorder/ Reason as memetic immune disorder] (Phil Goetz, ''LessWrong'', 2009-09-19)</ref> that these engineers failed to compartmentalise [[irrational]] religious [[memes]], and took the dangerous and stupid bits of their religions entirely seriously rather than treating them with the [[Cafeteria Christianity|casual hypocrisy most people do]]. Alternately, it could mean that engineers are especially recruited by terrorist organizations for useful skills (and conversely that people already inclined toward terrorism might seek engineering training to gain skills useful to "the cause"), more [[fundamentalist]] children wanting to be engineers rather than scientists, or a variety of other explanations.

Another right-wing extremist engineering graduate (aerospace engineering, to be precise), though not a terrorist, is 2016 Austrian Presidential candidate Norbert Hofer of the far-right Freedom Party of Austria.

==Dictators==
Although the main route to power for [[dictator]]s has been the army or the life of the "professional revolutionary", a number had engineering backgrounds, particularly in [[communist]] countries that privileged industry. [[Pol Pot]] studied electrical engineering in [[Paris]].<ref>Philip Shenon, [https://web.archive.org/web/20110122191144/https://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/06/weekinreview/pol-pot-the-mass-murderer-who-is-still-alive-and-well.html Pol Pot, the Mass Murderer Who Is Still Alive and Well]. Archived from ''The New York Times'', 6 February 1994.</ref> Leonid Brezhnev was a metallurgical engineer in the [[Ukrainian]] steel industry.<ref>[https://www.britannica.com/biography/Leonid-Ilich-Brezhnev Leonid Brezhnev], Britannica.</ref> [[Argentina|Argentine]] dictator {{wpl|Leopoldo Galtieri}} was trained in Civil Engineering.

==Engineers out of their depth in other ways==
*[[Thomas Midgley Jr]] — Engineer that dabbled in chemistry; created CFCs, leaded gasoline, and asphyxiated himself in a machine he designed to help himself get out of bed.
*[[Scott Adams]] — Created ''Dilbert'' and has no professional achievements as an engineer ''per se.'' However, he has rarely seen a piece of woo he didn't like. He also endorsed [[Donald Trump|the dark lord]] for president.
*Far too many youthful [[Ayn Rand]] casualties, like [[Petr Beckmann]].
*[[Osama bin Laden]] — Civil engineer known primarily for his work on Sudanese highway transportation projects.<ref>[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/anti-soviet-warrior-puts-his-army-road-peace-saudi-businessman-who-recruited-mujahedin-now-uses-them-large-scale-building-projects-sudan-robert-fisk-met-him-almatig-1465715.html Anti-Soviet warrior puts his army on the road to peace: The Saudi businessman who recruited mujahedin now uses them for large-scale building projects in Sudan. Robert Fisk met him in Almatig]</ref>
*Josef F. Blumrich — author of ''[[Ezekiel's wheel#Blumrich's spaceship|The Spaceships of Ezekiel]]''.
*Walter Brown - author of [[Hydroplate theory]].
*[[Harold Camping]] — Former civil engineer who made various [[end times]] predictions based on [[numerology]] BS.
*The leadership of [[China]] — China is currently run not by revolutionaries or politicians, but by [[Technocracy|technocrats]]. They seem to be attempting to solve everything like an engineering problem (more force here, more repression there, and we will have a harmonious society!) and, although they have good sense enough not to ignore the laws of [[economics]], they are still somewhat incapable of understanding the full complexity of the social tensions within their country.<ref>[http://unleashingchiang.blogspot.com/2010/01/engineers-and-terrorists-part-2.html Engineers and Terrorists Part 2]</ref>
*Rodney Dale and George Sassoon — authors of ''The Manna Machine''.
*Terry A. Davis, creator of [[TempleOS]]
*[[Henry Ford]], mechanical engineer, founder of the namesake car maker, and antisemitic conspiracy theorist.
*[[Thom Hartmann]] — Former electrical engineer who sadly promotes various woo on his radio show.
*[[Bodie Hodge]] — [[Ken Ham]]'s son-in-law, active within [[Answers in Genesis]] and in charge of the day-to-day operations at the [[Creation Museum|Creation "Museum"]].
*Richard Hoover — Wrote the meteorite [[bacteria]] paper for the ''[[Journal of Cosmology]]''.
*[[Ray Kurzweil]] — Being a brilliant computer scientist means all other fields, particularly biology, can be treated as subtopics of computer science. He [[crank magnetism|also claims]] that [[nutritional supplement]]s (on the order of 200 a day) and "[[alkaline water]]" do something useful.
*[[Dewey Larson]] (1898-1990) — One of the numerous engineers who thought that he could do [[physics]] better than physicists.
*Thomas Midgely Jr., the inventor of tetraethyl [[lead]] (an additive once used in gasoline/petrol) and chlorofluorocarbons, which were two of the biggest contributors to global pollution. Midgely even once publicly insisted that tetraethyl lead was safe by pouring it on his hands and inhaling it, despite having to take lengthy periods of time off to recover from lead poisoning.
*John Millward — An electrical engineer<ref>Millward, J. (2021) ''[https://essentialoiltherapy.org/en/john_millward.php About John Millward]''. essentialoiltherapy.org</ref> knee deep in [[essential oil]] woo and [[COVID-19 denialism]].<ref>Millward, J. (2021) ''[https://essentialoiltherapy.org/en/naturally_negate_the_vax.php Covid-19 Vaccine is a Bioweapon (Beware of Vaccine Shedding)]''. essentialoiltherapy.org</ref>
*[[Mohamed El Naschie]] — An engineer who believes he knows much more about mathematics than most mere mathematicians.
*[[Neoreaction]] — Was founded by a [[Curtis Yarvin|software engineer]] with too much time on his hands.
*[[Eric S. Raymond]] — His knowledge of and work in software engineering remains quite good. His batshit insane [[wingnuttery]], not so much.
*[[Malcolm Roberts]] — Somehow became an Australian senator as of 2016. Also known as "[[Strawman_theory|Malcolm-Ieuan: Roberts., the living soul", representing a corporate entity called MALCOLM IEUAN ROBERTS]]".<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20160804063046/http://www.galileomovement.com.au/docs/AffidavitGillard.pdf I, commonly addressed by the name Malcolm-Ieuan: Roberts., in my correct capacity as beneficiary to the original jurisdiction, being majority in age, competent to testify, a self realised and free sentient man upon the land...] Archived from galileomovement.com.au, 23 September 2011.</ref>
*Burt Rutan – The legendary aircraft designer gave a rambling and deeply stupid presentation at an aerospace conference attacking not only the legitimacy of global warming science, but the concept of science itself, which he explicitly argues should be replaced with inherently superior engineering methods.<ref>Burt Rutan, [http://burtrutan.com/downloads/EngrCritiqueCAGW-v4o3.pdf An Engineer’s Critique of Global Warming ‘Science’]. burtrutan.com, January 2011.</ref> Also, after the first successful spaceflight of SpaceShipOne, he gave a victory speech in which he suggested that his success must somehow intimidate NASA (over twenty years later, it hasn't).
*{{wpl|William Shockley}} — Nobel-winning joint inventor of the transistor and hence partly responsible for whatever you're reading this on, he [[Nobel disease|later]] became an advocate of [[eugenics]] and the idea that black people are genetically stupider than whites.
*[[Judy Wood]] — Former adjunct professor of mechanical engineering at Clemson University. She made a new career out of claiming that the World Trade Center was instantaneously turned to powder by a directed energy weapon. Her motivation was an honest search for truth. Oh, I almost forgot &mdash; Wood also stood to make many millions of dollars if her ''qui tam'' lawsuit had succeeded.
*The engineers who signed the [[global warming denialism|global warming denialist]] [[Oregon Petition]] — engineers make up a plurality of signatories.
* Apparently a bunch of [[flat earth]]ers are engineers, too.<ref>[http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-colorado-flat-earth-20180115-story.html The Earth is round, and other myths, debunked by the flat Earth movement (you read that right) By David Kelly Jan 15, 2018]</ref> 🙄

==External links==
*[http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2007/01/why-are-so-many-engineers-and.html Why are so many engineers and physicians IDiots?]
*[http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/stephen-meyer-on-engineers-and-id/ An Intelligent Design chime-in on the Salem hypothesis]
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20150412231211/http://paulhutch.com/wordpress/?p=252 New Paper Shows evidence of Salem hypothesis]
*Comics (both admittedly about physicists):
:*[http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/physicists.png XKCD]
:*[http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2556 SMBC]

==Notes==
{{reflist|group=note}}

==References==
{{reflist|2|80%}}

[[Category:Creationism]]
[[Category:Engineer woo| ]]
[[Category:Woo]]

Categories: Creationism, Engineer woo, Woo