debates/debates2025-06-04d conversation_10
Source: hansard.parliament.uk (2025-06-04)

UK Parliament Hansard data: debates/debates2025-06-04d conversation_10

Clive Efford:If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 4 June. \p Keir Starmer: Today we are investing £15.6 billion in the transport infrastructure of the north and of the midlands. We are decisively turning the page on a failed economic model of low investment, and we are backing the talent and prospects of the whole country. Over the coming weeks we will set out plans for further investment and renewal.

Our strategic defence review shows that this Government will never gamble with our national security. Through the biggest sustained funding increase since the cold war, we will transform our defence, strengthen our nation and invest in jobs and industry across the United Kingdom.

This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall have further such meetings later today. \p Clive Efford: We all remember the glorious summer of 2012 when the world’s greatest athletes came to London to compete in the Olympics and the Paralympics. It showcased Britain at its best, not just in track and field, but as a country that can host major cultural and sporting events. My right hon. and learned Friend has been written to by over 200 of our top athletes—some of them are members of Cambridge Harriers, who meet in my constituency—and they are calling for the Government to support the bid for the 2029 world athletics championships to take place in London. If successful, it will lift the whole nation—[Interruption.] If successful, it will lift the whole nation, inspire a generation of new athletes, showcase Britain on the world stage and put £400 million into our economy. What’s not to like? \p Lindsay Hoyle: I think the race has finished. Go on, Prime Minister. \p Keir Starmer: One of the greatest achievements of the last Labour Government was the 2012 Olympics in London, and we all remember it—[Interruption.]   Given that response, can I pay tribute to the extraordinary contribution of Tessa Jowell to those games? I agree that there have been huge economic benefits from hosting major sporting events as well as an important legacy. \p Lindsay Hoyle: We come to the Leader of the Opposition. \p Kemi Badenoch: Three weeks ago, the winter fuel policy was set in stone. Two weeks ago, the Prime Minister U-turned. Today, the Chancellor is rushing her plans because she just realised when winter is. So, on the behalf of the pensioners who want to know, can the Prime Minister be clear with us here and now: how many of the 10 million people who lost their winter fuel payments will get it back? \p Keir Starmer: Well, I am glad to see the right hon. Lady is catching up with what happened two weeks ago. At the Budget, we took the right decision to stabilise the economy because of the £22 billion black hole that the Conservatives left. We took the right decisions and the growth figures are up, interest rates have been cut, and we have free trade deals. So we will look again, as I said two weeks ago, at the eligibility for winter fuel and of course we will set out how we pay for it, but because we have stabilised the economy, we on this side are committed to the triple lock, and that increased pensions by over £400 this April. The Conservatives say the triple lock is unsustainable. I think her position is that she wants to means-test it. \p Kemi Badenoch: The Prime Minister clearly has selective amnesia. I asked him three questions about the winter fuel payment two weeks ago and he was floundering. The fact is he has not answered the question I asked him; he cannot tell us who will get the payments. All we see is U-turn after U-turn—his head must be spinning. Will he apologise now, including to his own Back Benchers, for taking the payments away in the first place? Can he tell us how he will pay for this? \p Keir Starmer: We took the right decisions at the Budget because we needed to stabilise the economy. The right hon. Lady needs to apologise for the fact that the Conservatives left the economy in a terrible state, with a mini-Budget that blew up the economy, and we were left with a £22 billion black hole. When she gets up, perhaps she should apologise for that. \p Kemi Badenoch: The Office for Budget Responsibility has said there was no such black hole. The Prime Minister has just given away £30 billion for the Chagos islands—that is his black hole. He has not stabilised the economy. Borrowing prices are higher now than at any time in the last Parliament. He has not stabilised the economy. He has no clear answers on what he is doing. It is just chaos, chaos, chaos. He keeps making announcements with no detail.

Let’s move to another area of confusion. Can we get a simple answer: will the Government keep the two-child benefit cap? \p Keir Starmer: I am absolutely determined that we will drive down child poverty. That is one of the proudest things of the last Labour Government. That is why we have a taskforce and that is why we have a  strategy, and we will set out that strategy in due course. But we drive child poverty down; under the Conservatives, poverty always goes up. \p Kemi Badenoch: I did not ask the Prime Minister about a taskforce. I asked him if he will keep the two-child benefit cap, and he does not know—it is just chaos and uncertainty. He has no details. He is briefing something and causing a lot of confusion to the people out there. On that two-child benefit cap, I tell him this: I believe in family, but I also believe in fairness. On the Conservative side of the House, we believe that people on benefits should have to make the same choices on having children as everyone else. What does the Prime Minister believe? \p Keir Starmer: I believe profoundly in driving down poverty and child poverty. That is why we will put a strategy in place. But the right hon. Lady talks about heads spinning. There is only one leader who been praised this week by the Russian embassy. If she carries on echoing Kremlin talking points like this, Reform will be sending her an application form for membership. \p Kemi Badenoch: I asked the Prime Minister what he believes in. He had to look in his folder to find the answer. His MPs behind him know what they believe in—he does not know. He has been in government for nearly a year. It will only get harder and harder. The canned, forced laughter, the planted questions—all that will disappear because at every single point things are getting worse. He has to ask Morgan McSweeney what it is that he believes in, but the fact is that chaos is being felt in the economy. The Chancellor said she would not be coming back with new tax rises, but she will have to pay for all these U-turns she is announcing out there, won’t she? \p Keir Starmer: I am going to look in my folder because here I have the quote that the right hon. Lady said on Sky News—[Interruption.] I will read it, thank you. [Laughter.] It is what the Leader of the Opposition said—it is worth listening to. She said:

“Israel is fighting a proxy war on behalf of the UK, just like Ukraine is on behalf of Western Europe against Russia.”

Well, that was certainly noticed in the Russian embassy because they put out a statement saying that the Leader of the Opposition has

“finally called a spade a spade”.

It said:

“Ukraine is indeed fighting a proxy war against Russia on behalf of Western interests”.

It went on to say:

“The illegitimate Kyiv regime, created, financed and armed by the West, has been at it since 2014.”

So they endorsed—[Interruption.] They want the detail; I have given the quote. That is what Russia said in response. She asked me what I believe in. I believe in standing by Ukraine and calling out Russia as the aggressor. \p Kemi Badenoch: It was our Government that stood behind Ukraine and led the way in Europe. Everything the Prime Minister has said this afternoon is total nonsense, obfuscation, and avoiding the question. He does not have any answers. It is disgraceful.

I asked the Prime Minister about the two-child benefit cap; he is talking about the Kremlin. He is saying everything he can to distract from the mess he is making of our economy. The OECD has downgraded growth for the next two years. He cannot rule out tax rises. Police chiefs are saying that they do not have the money they need to keep the public safe, just as he is releasing more criminals on to the streets. His Cabinet are squabbling with each other, and they said that they have lost control of the borders, but he still managed to find £30 billion to give away the Chagos islands. This is total and utter chaos. Two weeks ago, he was crowing about his historic trade deal and how he got zero per cent tariffs on steel. Now the steel industry will face 25% tariffs unless he does exactly what President Trump tells him to. It is chaos, chaos, chaos—and isn’t the root of the chaos that it is about this Prime Minister, his decisions and his judgment? \p Keir Starmer: The only advice—[Interruption.] She gets up on a Wednesday morning, scrolls through social media and never does any of the detail. We are the only country in the world that is not paying the 50% tax on steel, and we are working on the rest. That will be coming down. She—[Interruption.] We are working to bring it down to zero; that is going to happen. [Interruption.] \p Lindsay Hoyle: Order. Please, let us listen to the answer, even if you do not believe you are getting one. It is how the Prime Minister wishes to do it. \p Keir Starmer: She opposes the US deal, she opposes the India deal, she opposes what we are doing with the EU, and she opposes Diego Garcia. That is a vital intelligence and strategic capability, and it is absolutely clear that legal uncertainty would compromise that capability in a very short time. No responsible Prime Minister would ever let that happen. We have secured the long-term basis for the base. That has been welcomed by the US, NATO, Australia, New Zealand and India. They are our allies. It has been opposed by our adversaries, Russia, China and Iran—and into that column we have Reform, presumably following Putin, and the Tories following Reform. \p Claire Hanna: Anyone who saw the six-year-old girl fleeing the flaming shelter where her family were killed by an Israeli air strike will carry those horrific images with them forever. These are very dark days. Gaza is a stain on the soul of humanity, and it is a further shame that there is more moral clarity coming from Ms Rachel on YouTube than from many world leaders, who are complicit in silence. The Prime Minister said this week that Britain must be ready for war. I ask: after tens of thousands of deaths, after a generation of Gazans stunted by hunger and trauma, when will it be ready for peace? When will it help to stop this genocide? When will it hold the Israeli Government to account, and when will it recognise the state of Palestine? \p Keir Starmer: I am grateful to the hon. Member for raising this. She is absolutely right to describe these as dark days. Israel’s recent action is appalling and, in my view, counterproductive and intolerable. We have strongly opposed the expansion of military operations and settler violence, and the blocking of humanitarian  aid. The House will have seen that we have suspended the free trade agreement talks and sanctioned extremists supporting violence in the west bank. We will keep looking at further action, along with our allies, including sanctions, but let me be absolutely clear: we need to get back to a ceasefire, we need the hostages, who have been held for a very long time, to be released, and we desperately need more aid, at speed and at volume, into Gaza, because it is an appalling and intolerable situation. \p Lindsay Hoyle: I call the leader of the Liberal Democrats. \p Edward Davey: I start by welcoming reports that the Chancellor will give winter fuel payments to more pensioners this winter, although because we still await the details, we will reserve our full judgment.

I recognise the efforts of the Prime Minister to pull out all the stops to avoid President Trump’s damaging tariffs: a letter from the King, offering to water down online safety laws and even trying to send the Open to one of Trump’s golf courses. The Prime Minister thought he had secured 0% tariffs for British steel, but now Trump is threatening us with 50% unless we comply with his new, five-week deadline. This is classic Trump—changing the terms of a deal he has already agreed. Does the Prime Minister share my fear that nothing will stop Trump messing the UK around, short of bunging a few hundred million pounds into his TrumpCoin? \p Keir Starmer: We have a deal and we are implementing it. Within a very short time, I am very confident that we will get those tariffs down in accordance with the deal. I will come back to the right hon. Gentleman and update the House in due course, and I think the House will be very pleased at the outcome—[Interruption.] From a sedentary position, the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie) says no. This is zero tariffs on steel. [Interruption.] Let us come back to this in a couple of weeks when we have implemented it, but the Conservatives obviously do not want it. Labour has backed steel; the Conservatives laugh at attempts to do so. That is a big part of the problem. \p Edward Davey: I had hoped the Prime Minister would now be beginning to see the sort of man Trump is and start getting tough on him, so we will come back to this issue.

I welcome the Prime Minister’s remarks about Gaza, because I am sure that all of us are appalled by the latest scenes: starving people desperate for food, water and medicine, met with chaos and violence. The US-Israeli programme is clearly failing and nothing short of lifting the full blockade on aid will do. Given that the Netanyahu Government refuse to do that, will the Prime Minister take more decisive action today? Will he push at the United Nations Security Council for humanitarian corridors to get the desperately needed aid urgently into Gaza? \p Keir Starmer: I give the right hon. Gentleman my assurance, because this is a very important issue, that we are working at pace with our allies on that very issue, to take whatever measures we can to get that humanitarian aid in. We have been doing that intensively over recent weeks and I give him my assurance that we  will continue to do that, because that aid needs to get in at speed and at volume, and he is absolutely right about that.