debates/debates2025-09-15e conversation_10
Source: hansard.parliament.uk (2025-09-15)

UK Parliament Hansard data: debates/debates2025-09-15e conversation_10

Andrew Snowden:What assessment her Department has made of the potential merits of disapplying the Human Rights Act 1998 to immigration matters. \p Shabana Mahmood: Clearly the balance between the human rights of illegal migrants and the wider public interest is out of kilter. This Government will legislate to limit the application of article 8 of the European convention on human rights, which covers the right to a family life. This will mean that we can deport and remove more illegal migrants, and we will pursue international reform, too. In my previous role, I was already involved in conversations with other member states of the Council of Europe, and this Government will continue that work. \p Andrew Snowden: I welcome the Home Secretary to her position. Every new appointment comes with an opportunity to take a fresh look at these matters. Clearly, since the 1950s, when the refugee convention and the European convention on human rights were first written, the world has changed significantly. Successive Governments have tweaked various bits, working with partners, but does she agree that if we are to stop the small boats that are crossing the channel and illegal migration, the Government will need a more wholesale change? \p Shabana Mahmood: I hope the hon. Gentleman will take a bit of time to look at the speech I made to the Council of Europe just before the summer recess, in which I made a very similar argument to the one he is making. For those of us who are supporters of the convention and who want to see it stand the test of time, we have to recognise that it is a treaty formed many decades ago in a different reality and we should have a conversation about whether it is still fit for purpose. It is a conversation that others in Europe are having, and we are taking a leading role in those discussions. We will pursue international reform and also reform of our domestic legislation. \p Tony Vaughan: By leaving the EU, the Tories tore up our returns agreement with the EU, and they completely failed to negotiate a new one, but this Government have now rectified that. Does the Home Secretary agree that the Tories and Reform are in cloud cuckoo land if they think that the French would have signed a returns deal with us if we had left the European convention on human rights? \p Shabana Mahmood: My hon. Friend is right to point out that the fact that we are signed up to the European convention underpins other international agreements that we have with partners. It underpins the Good Friday agreement. It also underpins our treaty with the French on the France returns pilot. That is why we should be responsible in taking forward a conversation on reform of the convention, and that is the approach we are taking. I was taking that approach in my previous role, and I will carry on doing so as Home Secretary. \p Lindsay Hoyle: I call the shadow Minister. \p Chris Philp: I warmly welcome the Home Secretary to her place. I very much look forward to the exchanges that we will have, so long as the Prime Minister leaves her in post. When it comes to human rights, does she not accept that tinkering around the edges simply will not work? She said in her answer a second ago that she wants to see the ECHR reformed, but her own Government’s Attorney General Lord Hermer said just four days ago that ECHR reform is a “political trick”. Perhaps she and the Attorney General should get themselves on the same page. Given that the Attorney General says that reform is not possible, does she not agree that more fundamental changes are needed, as my hon. Friend the Member for Fylde (Mr Snowden) said a moment ago? This year has been the worst in history for illegal immigrants crossing the channel—the number is up 38%, compared with last year. Only radical change will fix this mess, so will the Home Secretary back the Conservative plans to completely disapply the Human Rights Act 1998 and ensure that all illegal immigrants are immediately removed upon arrival? \p Lindsay Hoyle: Order. You know the score; you know we have to get through questions. When colleagues do not get in, they will blame the shadow Home Secretary. Please try to help others. \p Shabana Mahmood: After that performance, I have to confess that I find myself rather missing the shadow Justice Secretary, the right hon. Member for Newark (Robert Jenrick). The shadow Minister says that we are tinkering at the edges. He could not be more wrong; we have a proper plan for looking at legislative reform. But tinkering at the edges would have been fantastic under the Conservatives, because their track record is that they did nothing—sod all—in 14 years. Suddenly, they have found their reforming instincts now that they are in opposition. This Government will take forward domestic as well as international reform.