Single-threaded Podcast: Prince Wilson on Learning through Live-coding
Tags: podcast, career, twitch, streaming
Published: 2022-02-13 16:51:28

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title: Single-threaded Podcast: Prince Wilson on Learning through Live-coding
published: true
description: 
tags: podcast, career, twitch, streaming
//cover_image: https://direct_url_to_image.jpg
---

{% spotify spotify:episode:7LpoFdacHfRvbOkyvYtfY1 %}

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] JC: This is Single-threaded. I'm Jenn Creighton. 

Okay. So for a lot of Devs, myself included, the idea of someone watching me code, make mistakes and try to learn things, I think that’s terrifying. But Prince Wilson doesn’t. 

So Prince, he’s a web developer by day, but he comes alive, the Twitch streamer, at night. He does this fantastic live coding sessions, where he’s also learning in the process. And for me, I thought this was fascinating. What a way to really challenge yourself and learn. 

And as we talk to Prince, you’re going to see great a community. It’s a great discussion. And hey, you might even be encouraged to try streaming yourself. Who knows? 

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:06] JC: Thank you so much, Prince, for joining us on the podcast, all of our listeners. I'm super excited to introduce you to all of them. And today we're going to be talking about how you stream writing code, which is like kind of wild to me. I've watched a little bit of your stream. And I just want to say, first off, that you are effervescent.

[00:01:26] PW: Thank you. 

[00:01:28] JC: I was like giggling as I was like – I was like, “You are so joyful.” And you do these little sound effects sometimes. Like a little boop sometimes. And I really identify with the booping.

[00:01:41] PW: It's very much – This is how I code day to day. And I realized that people don't do that. I didn't learn till later on when I was teaching people like, “Oh, people don't like animate their own like coding [inaudible 00:01:54]?”

[00:01:56] JC: You know what the thing is? That most people don't code out loud. And I feel like streaming, you obviously have to, right? It can't just be you sitting there typing. The streaming, from what I've seen, is like very interactive.

[00:02:11] PW: Yeah. So previously, I worked as like a coding instructor. And I got very comfortable speaking aloud, like what am I thinking and kind of also like talking about why I'm doing certain things. And so, I think, for people coming in to the stream, I want to make sure they have the same context as I do. Because sometimes it's strange to see somebody being like writing onto the screen and just like, “Why are they writing it this way? Or what are they hoping to achieve?” 

And also, I love kind of failing openly. Because once again, putting my thoughts directly onto the page, it lets people know like, “Oh, they can make mistakes, and like that's fine?” But at least they shared why they tried to do something. And that's what I hope to do with streaming, is just share what I know.

[00:02:52] JC: Yeah. So that is very similar to when I was a younger engineer, and I would pair with the more senior engineer. When I would watch them have a mistake and like how they handled it and they were just like, “This happens.” It was so comforting.

[00:03:06] PW: It's so cathartic to see, right? Like I think everyone, when they see a title, they're like, “Oh my gosh! This person must be incredible at their job.” But they've also just seen a lot of things and also like made a lot of mistakes along the way. Because the more you do something, the more mistakes you have. But you get better at recognizing like, “Ah, this is like why that happened.” As well as like trying to take learnings away from it. I think that's like the most important skill I've gotten. 

Also, like streaming, is very much trying to make sure I don't take it to heart where something like doesn't work. Because first and foremost, everyone sees me. So if I think – Everyone's about to see this go down. But also like it really isn't that serious. Making mistake is not going to crush me. And it kind of reminds me that there are the people on the side of the screen who deserve to see like this okay to fail. Like part of coding is an experiment, is just figuring out like how things work and recognizing, “Ah.”

[00:04:01] JC: I love when an engineer who's learning a concept will ask me, “Well, does it do this?” And my response is always, “Let's try it.”

[00:04:10] PW: Same. I think it's important. I think there are rabbit holes that we don't afford ourselves to go through when we don't try things. Especially, I can imagine like, getting kind of nervous about like, “Oh, I don't know the entire map that I'm trying to draw. I just like know like parts of like what not to go through, like, generally.” But it can be kind of nerve racking to be like, “Oh, we're going down a path I have never explored. And let's just see what happens like along the way.” And we can back out at any point, fortunately. But we got to try a little bit.

[00:04:42] JC: Yeah, we got to try things out. When did you start streaming?

[00:04:46] PW: So I started streaming, I want to say, April 2020, which is –

[00:04:50] JC: Good time. Good time to do that. Yeah.

[00:04:52] PW: That was the time I had wanted to do it that year anyway. I had started a new job. And I was like, “This is what I want to put my mindset towards.” I was like surrounding myself with people who were also doing this at the start of the year. And I was like, “I'm going to do this.” And I tried to make that approach happen for it. And so I've been doing it for almost two years now.

[00:05:11] JC: Wow! Okay, so you stream regularly, I believe on Tuesday evenings, Eastern Standard Time. When you first started, was it bumpy at all? Or was it very smooth?

[00:05:20] PW: Absolutely bumpy. So one thing I did for myself getting started is it was kind of nervous to do streaming, and also I happened to join a Discord server at the time where I kind of streamed my coding screen at the time just to get like experience so that people who I trusted. Like, “Ah! This what it will feel like when I do a Twitch stream.” Like, “Can I make sure this works the way that I want to?” And like, “Can I speak my thoughts?” So I practiced that. 

And then the first stream I did, I did it. I was very nervous. I was like, “I don’t know. I'm not going to tell anybody I'm doing it. I'm just going to show into Twitch and what happens happens.” And then I learned later that it didn't even work the first time I tried. It didn’t actually go live. It was fine. I did it for an hour thinking, “Oh, this is all working. It's like good.” So I learned that.

The second time I did it, I also learned that you can select the little checkbox that says like, “Record your stream for later so people can watch it.” Didn't check that little box. So the second time when I brought people in, I was like, “Oh, look at my first real stream that I did.” And Aaron's like, “Where is it?” And I'm like, “Oh, it's not there anymore? Oops.” Just a little bumps along the way. It's fine. And that's okay.

[00:06:26] JC: Yeah. I mean, well, I assume it's a learning process to start doing this. You did say you are surrounded by people who are also doing this at the time. Had they been doing it very long? Or are they also new to it?

[00:06:38] PW: I want to say it varied. Some people had been doing it for some time. Some people have been just starting. So it's just like various experiences of like putting themselves onto the Internet, whether that's through streaming or making YouTube videos, just all sorts of different things.

[00:06:50] JC: Which is very nerve wracking. 

[00:06:52] PW: Yes. 

[00:06:53] JC: Putting yourself on the Internet.

[00:06:55] PW: Very much, especially because people have thoughts about how you are on the Internet, especially when you're just like trying to bring something you know to the table. Some people don't like that. And that's one of my biggest fears when I started Twitch streaming, is like somebody's telling me like, “Oh, you're doing this wrong?” And I'm like, “Thank you. I know, I'm learning.”

[00:07:16] JC: I love that response, “Thank you. Yes, I'm actually in the process of learning. And thank you for your input.”

[00:07:24] PW: I think one of the things I wanted to create space for people is like, if you don't know something on my stream, I want you to ask the question. I don't want you to feel like, “Oh, you must show up knowing everything.” And also, I don't want to pretend that I know everything. I very much want to put myself in a space that there's something to gain no matter what experience you're at, whether you have worked as an engineer, or you have not, but everyone has something to learn from one another. And it's important to emulate that in the community space that you create.

[00:07:52] JC: Ah, I love, that there's something to gain on both sides. So that brings me back to the original reason why you started streaming. You said you had some like you knew you want to do it. How did it start to be a thing that you were like, “I think I want to try this?” And like sort of what were your reasons for like being like this is something I want to do?

[00:08:09] PW: I think I wanted to learn. I specifically started with learning how to program in Rust, the language. And I was like, “Well, I know I want to do this. But I want to kind of do it in a way that's open so everyone else can see it as well. They can follow along. They can share what they know. And we can learn things together. And that's kind of what started it is a dedicated time for me to learn something. For an hour in the evening, that's where it started with. And it just kind of evolved to doing whatever I wanted to do at the time, which some streamers, they have like a patch they're working through, or sometimes they might be working on their own stream setup. Specifically, people who are doing programming streaming. But I just kind of was random and just did whatever I thought was cool at the time. And I just wanted to show up, bring my personality and just make everyone feel welcome.

[00:08:59] JC: I would say, from watching your stream, that you accomplish those goals very well.

[00:09:03] PW: Thank you for sharing that. Oh my gosh! That's important to me. It always feels like that. It doesn't need to feel like a space where, “Oh, you must come in. Prince knows everything.” Like that is not what the vibe I'm trying to get.

[00:09:15] JC: Yeah, and that's a thing that can definitely happen when you're – I've experienced it at least at work, where you like have someone who's more senior than you or has the ear of the CEO sometimes, and sort of like their word is law in the workspace. And so making sure that you don't bring something like that to an environment where people are trying to learn is very important. Because once you bring that into an environment, people do not feel comfortable. Saying that they don't know things, saying that they're new to things, that they're learning, it can be a real hindrance to the learning process.

[00:09:50] PW: Fully agree. And especially because it's important for us to acknowledge that every person has a responsibility creating the safety of their coworkers, safety of their peers, safety of their community. And like, for me, that's why I wanted to create my space to be that. I don't want it to be a space where I accept that behavior from people like where people could dismiss one another. So I'm like that's very much one of my goals, is always to be thoughtful of like, how am I adding to the community. To the ways that I want it to be normed? I think very much like my actions have that capacity to remind people like this is what is acceptable and what is not acceptable.

[00:10:28] JC: Do you have, as a streamer, community guidelines? Or have you had to deal with anyone not being appropriate in the chat?

[00:10:37] PW: Specifically, I've had people who tried to come in and tell me like, “You're doing this wrong.” And I tell them very clearly like this space is not how I would like to use that. If you would like to have a conversation off stream, more than happy to. But I specifically try to make sure that people don't try to – I almost call it like taking all the oxygen out of the room, where it's like they're making themselves the center of the conversation, as opposed to like recognizing how we're helping one another grow. And I want to make sure that everyone recognizes like, “Hey, this isn't how we have to have this conversation.” And it's okay. 

And I do think, once again, doing that very live, where people see you and people recording, very much have to think about like why is it important that I do this here and have this conversation? Because people need to know. Like this is how I want the space to be cultivated.

[00:11:25] JC: Being a person on the Internet, I've experienced that people just love to tell you, “Ooh, this is not correct. And you need to be doing X,” or very pedantic responses of like, “Well, actually, it is a blah, blah, blah.” And I'm like, “Mm-hmm.” So I do this with my Twitter, but like I don't have another space, I guess, where I'm like, “Ah-ah. We're not doing this today. This is not the space that I want to create for myself.” And with streaming, I feel like is that you've come into my stream. This is my thing. 

[00:11:54] PW: Yup. 

[00:11:55] JC: So we're going to act the way I want you to interact with me.

[00:12:00] PW: Exactly. Some teams, some people who are doing programming, they had moderators. So they're handling that conversation most the time. But I am just a small little time streamer who just does it all myself. Unfortunately, I think, once again, it goes back to like when you set that norm, other people around defend that norm. So like if you'll remember, like I have people who watch, and like people will kind of have that conversation where it's like, “Hey, I don't think that's really what we're here to do.” So I think that helps reinforce, this is what I want the setting to be for people. And also, to recognize, like when something doesn't feel right, people can speak to that truth and feel very confident, like, “Hey, I don't think this is what Prince would like to see here.” So I feel comfortable that I know, even if I'm not like looking and controlling that conversation, people are out there advocating for me.

[00:12:45] JC: That's so nice that you have this community that you've built that knows, “This is the guidelines. We're going to reinforce.” This sort of understanding of how the community is going to be working. The streams are really interactive. So for anyone who has never seen a Twitch stream, do you want to sort of explain what it kind of looks like?

[00:13:06] PW: So imagine, if you will, you're going on to the Internet, and then you go to twitch.com and you go to my profile.

[00:13:11] JC: Which is?

[00:13:12] PW: Twitch.tv/maxcellw. That's where you can find me on the Internet. And in there, typically, you'll see my face in a little bottom corner, a little chat box above me seeing the conversations that we're having in Twitch chat. People who are having conversations with their own user profile saying like, “Hey, I like this.” Or laughing at a joke that I made. And then to the left of me, you'll typically see my computer screen like this is what I'm coding, as well as like maybe if I'm on the Interweb doing research for Docs, or trying to show like a local host version of what I'm doing. But over the course of the time, typically we're either learning something, or we're building a project together. And I'm just kind of talking through what I'm thinking and kind of integrating what I'm hearing from chat and building this stuff together.

[00:13:56] JC: Wonderful. And the product that you choose, you said you sort of choose whatever you want to work on. But do you do any predetermined, like a week in advance or something like that? Like I think I want to work on this. And maybe I should look into a couple of things that this goes just a little bit smoothly. Like I'm still learning, but I should have some clue.

[00:14:16] PW: So I've done a little bit of both where I do a part of that experience, where I kind of do a little research ahead of time and be like, “Can I actually do this thing? Can I do this like an MVP style?” Sometimes I do that. Most times what I do is completely on the screen, like fresh, “Oh, I have no idea what I'm about to get myself into. I have an idea.” And I'm just like, “We're just going to do it all here.” And that, once again, reminds people like, “Ah, Prince doesn't know everything. He doesn't know what he’s going to find.” And we're just going through the rabbit holes of whatever we want to go through. 

Generally, those caused me the most anxiety when I'm doing them in front of people, partially because most people are not around me when I'm doing my coding journey into my day to day. So like you don't have to see me go do this Google search of how do I center a div for instance? This is a Google search that I will do. And people are like, “Prince, you don't know this?” I'm like, “Yeah, I don't know how to do everything. But I know some things. Don't worry about me.” 

I have recently been working on this project with a Discord bot. Discord is like this chat service that people can get connected with. It has different channels and whatnot. And that's the one I've had to do a lot of preemptive research where I have to go ahead and see like, “Oh, what can Discord’s API let me do? What can't it let me do? What are the ways that I need to know certain skills?” Because I am using Rust, I'm trying to figure out, “Oh, what can I do with Rust that lets me do this thing?” and very much have had to do the most research ahead of time. So I'm not just like doing that for an hour where people are like, “Prince, I don't know if you can do this.” And then I learn, “Ah, you can't do that.”

[00:15:47] JC: But it is still a valuable lesson. 

[00:15:50] PW: Yes.

[00:15:51] JC: I've learned multiple times that I can't do something. And it's been upsetting every time. And it did take me down a rabbit hole to figure out that I couldn't do the thing. It's really not obvious that you can't do the thing.

[00:16:03] PW: I wish there were some times it’s like almost like in a video game where you're like, “This isn't the path you want to go down. But you know what? I'm going to live with it as it is. It's fine.” But once again, it comes back to, I think, over time, one of the hardest parts for me, as a developer, just general, is accepting that there's so much value to exploring. I think, as a developer, it's really easy to see, “Oh, some paths you don't want to go down.” But some paths, even though you don't know where you're going, like it's still worth learning about, because that will help you in another situation. And it's really hard to remember like that failure of like finding that path is not actually like a failure of you. But rather, it doesn't solve the problem. And then that is okay. Like that is part of the experience of being a developer. But to have not gone down that path at all takes away that reward of learning something new.

[00:16:57] JC: I feel like it's very difficult sometimes to remember the value of doing that, because, often, the work environment that you're in does not value that the same way.

[00:17:09] PW: Yes. 

[00:17:10] JC: And so I think people start to do these things outside of their jobs. But you should be able to do this within your job as well. The last two places – Well, the current place I work and the place I worked at before like valued going down the rabbit hole and doing the research and figuring out if something could be done, or just exploring and making sure you understood like the landscape better.

[00:17:33] PW: I think that's incredible. And that goes back to like that’s a norm that's created across an organization. And like every time we take an action, like that's a payment in the bucket of like this is the norms that we want to cultivate. And like having the ability to explore without the consequences, I think, something that's really important to have.

[00:17:52] JC: Streaming is a way of doing this if your work – Because let's face it, like we're not all going to work at companies that are going to have this culture and sometimes you just stick it out for a bit. Streaming seems like a nice way of doing this. And I guess people could do something like this without actually having to stream it to other people, right? Like just work on something small. I get really curious, and I'm like, “I wonder if I can do this thing,” and then open up my laptop and just go.

[00:18:15] PW: Exactly. I think why I started doing it as a stream is just very much like, “Oh, like this is a way for me to share that process with everyone. I've been trying to think a lot about like that since like the start of streaming to where I am now. I've been thinking a lot about like, “How do we make sure I'm sharing that this is a process? Like this is not just me doing it in a closed room. Showing up one day being like, “Look at how I become a senior engineer. This is it.” I'm very much trying to show up and be like this is every day, every week that I have shown up. Like this is what has built to that process. And I want to afford that to people, because most people have not seen the person like myself be on the Internet doing the job. That's just a fact of life. I didn't see that of myself when I was growing up. And so I was very much like, “How do I make sure that I can show people, one, it's possible? Two, also, that it is work. People have to do the work. But also, that you can do that work. It’s possibility. Most people have not gotten that affordance where I grew up. And so it was just like I want to make sure I am putting myself there.

[00:19:16] JC: I wish streaming had been available when I was younger, because I also had no role models for this career. Now, I guess we're both finding ourselves being the role models.

[00:19:28] PW: Exactly. And I think that is important to us, being people who we want it to see helps people in the forest and the future in ways that we don't even know. I had somebody come into my Twitch chat like maybe two three weeks ago telling me that they really appreciated the way that I was doing my streaming. And they had actually shared through the time of just watching us, they had gotten a job. And I was like, “That's amazing. Congratulations.” 

And it's not like direct like I helped them along the way. We didn't do any of their work. But like I think that goes back to like cultivating a space where people are wanting to learn. Like that has ways of impacting people without us ever knowing. And I'm not here to be like, “Look at all those I'm getting in a job.” But like rather, cultivating space for people allows people to feel energized to pursuing what they want to do.

[00:20:13] JC: And it's something you don't always get through your job, the cultivating of space for that. I like that this could be like a dedicated place for people to get that.

[00:20:24] PW: Yeah. One of my experiences back in university was very much like being surrounded with people where we'd have clubs is really what I would call them. Just like organizations, they come together and you just do things connected to that organization. And I think a lot about that experience and how that shaped me being one, a person, who participated in the club and also being a person who founded the club and like how that ended up making me think more about like why is it important to cultivate space where we can do things together.

[00:20:52] JC: So streaming originally, also, I think was more of a gaming thing, which I think you do sometimes stream gaming sometimes?

[00:20:58] PW: Sometimes. When I'm like, “Oh, I really don't feel like working,” I don't work. 

[00:21:03] JC: A null concept. 

[00:21:07] PW: I surprise myself every time. I'm like, “Oh, yeah. I can just use my Twitch stream to do whatever I would like.” And that is okay. Sure. People may not like that. That's okay. They don't have to be there for that part. But I very much like to say, if my brain isn't up for streaming today, let's do something. Anyway, showing up for myself is why I do that. It makes sure I'm being consistent of like when I show up. Because every Tuesday, I show up and do my stream. And sometimes that might mean doing some fun video games. Sometimes I might be doing some scary video games. I've done that before. And I think showing up doing my programming, everyone knows I'm going to do it. So as long as I continue to do it, it doesn't matter if one day I'm taking it away to doing something that lets me recharge and rest.

[00:21:45] JC: Which is an important concept. Because especially when – I mean, I felt this when I was earlier in my career, was grind, grind, grind, grind, grind. Get the knowledge in your brain. Every minute of downtime was like you need to be doing something, learning. Even as recently as like Christmas break, I was like, I'm going to learn Rust.” And then I was like, “You know what, girl? You're not going to be learning Rust. It’s not what you need.”

[00:22:16] PW: And that's important to recognize. Like do I need this right now? And where is it coming from? Just recently, I felt the same pain of like, “Oh, why am I not dedicating all my energy and time to just growing?” Growing is something I've learned or I'm still feeling for myself. I've been writing daily for a few days now.

[00:22:36] JC: I've read some of your – They're really good.

[00:22:38] PW: Thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate it. Sometimes I'm just writing to The Void. And The Void sometimes lets me know. And I really appreciate when people let me know, because it rhymes why important to me. But one of the things I was writing about today was how rest and growth are part of the same cycle. And like rather than seeing them as two separate cycles, where you’re like, “Oh, you grow, grow, grow, grow, grow.” You can't do that without resting. It doesn't work. It's part of that cycle, because in resting is when the growth also happens. It just doesn't happen consciously. And I think I've been feeling the remnants of what happens when you just grow, grow, grow, grow without any rest. You burn out.

[00:23:17] JC: So this is funny. This is the carving time to fill your cup post, isn't it? 

[00:23:21] PW: Yes. Yes. 

[00:23:22] JC: Okay. So I pulled this up, because, actually, I want to read a quote from it, if that's okay, that like hit me really hard. So from your post, carving time to fill your cup, you say, “For 2022, I am making sure to take time to look and appreciate the work it takes to complete something. I'm trying to be more conscious with how I learn things, because I think that will remind me that the work itself is challenging. I need to remember to take time to rest and not grind through everything. Because while it can be done quickly, it will not submit in my brain like that. It will not always be rewarded quickly. And I cannot continue to chase for it like that.” Oh, hence. 

[00:24:06] PW: Oh, I can't believe I wrote that. 

[00:24:08] JC: How does it feel having that read back to you? Because when I read it, I was like, “I identify with this.”

[00:24:18] PW: Sometimes when I write things, or when I'm speaking, sometimes I like forget I say those things. And like speaking is so true to my heart, that I when I hear it back, I'm like, “Wow! That really was me.” And that's why I started writing is very much being like I want to not forget this feeling, because this is the feeling when I'm – By this time next year, I want to remember like this is how I felt. And between here and then, this is the growth that it took to get better.

[00:24:49] JC: And there's this real push and pull thing in our industry where we have books like – This is a made-up title. But anyway, like learn Rust in five minutes. I mean, there are versions of this, right? And that's not how it works.

[00:25:04] PW: No, it's not, unfortunately. I sit with myself where I'm like, “Oh, yes, I can master this skill.” And I'm like, “Wait, can I master it? Is that really the – Can I do all of that in the time frame that I'm given? And remind yourself like, “One, you could maybe. But two, if you don't, you're not a failure because of that.” I've internalized feeling like I'm not growing quick enough. And I've been making sure to recognize that's a lie. My inner saboteur is telling me.

[00:25:35] JC: Ooh, I've never heard anyone call it the inner saboteur. But I like that a lot. That's really nice. I hear like critical inside voice. Yeah. But saboteur.

[00:25:45] PW: It’s the person who's telling me like, “You can't do this thing.” The person who's trying to set myself up for the things. The procrastinator inside of me, who is the reason why I don't get things done. I just kind of listen. It’s a voice. Somebody else's voice. Not my voice.

[00:25:59] JC: It is important to know that that is somebody else's voice. Like it's something that I talk about with my therapist a lot where she's like, “That voice was not naturally came about from your personality. That voice was put there by things that happened to you.” And I was like, “Oh, yes.” 

[00:26:18] PW: Dang! Dang! Whoa!

[00:26:21] JC: Yeah. Somebody else put the voice there.

[00:26:25] PW: I've been trying to also remember like the things that served you don't have to continue serving you. And you have to let them go. They might have served you to protect you. Very much part of that. And it's a connect all the way through. Streaming has gone through cycles of that too where I'm like, “Am I doing something that is serving me? Am I doing it for other reasons? Am I doing it to feel something else?” And I've very much been trying to think about like, “No. Actually, the reason why I do it is in service to others, and very much thinking about like why it’s important to me.” 

I've had many a journey where I'm like, “This is why I do my streaming.” And instead of thinking only solely of like I'm creating content. But very much trying to be like, “No, this is sharing an experience. And like this is a time where I get to do that.”

[00:27:13] JC: When you're a dev on the Internet, and you have in your past produced some sort of content, I think there's a real push for you to keep up putting content, which is something I have sort of not done. But the exception of this podcast, which is very limited, limited. And I'm not going to be doing this all year, right? Because I have limited time and energy. It's something I enjoy doing. I love talking to people. These were all the conversations that I really missed having. I used to have these at conferences, and now I get to have them again with people. But if it really burnt me out, if it was not providing anything, I just kind of don't. I just don't do it. Like for a long time I was like, “I should blog.” And like, “No.”

[00:28:00] PW: That is okay. Another one of the things, when I write, I like figuring out myself and being like, “Wow! Those books, like they tell you to do these things. Sometimes they are right. Sometimes they are right. Sometimes if something doesn't feel like it's pushing you the way you want to be, it is okay to let it go.” I think there's a lot of fear of letting things that you feel like you've outgrown them, they've served your purpose, and you can let them just be off their way. And I've done that with streaming, where like I don't want to do a project anymore, because I just can't do it. The reward for me does not feel that way. And I'm like, “Will people feel upset of me? I hope not, because like a project is just a project. It's just code. Who cares?” But that's very much where I've tried to remind myself like it's not this deep sometimes where you can freely let it go.

[00:28:43] JC: I'm also a big fan of just letting your brain do what it wants to do, which is a thing I like struggled to explain to people as like my brain sometimes doesn't want to learn, because I'll try to do it, and it'll be like an active like grinding of the gears. And I'll be like, “Oh, this is not what you want. What do you want? You want to go watch Cheer season two? Let's go do that. Let’s do it.” Is that how you feel when you're like, “I don't want to code on the stream today.”

[00:29:16] PW: Yeah, that's exactly what it will feel like. And very much comes in cycles where I'm like, “This is a sign that I need to rest.” Or I need to dig in and figure out like why do I feel this way and like reconnect with like what started this goal and like go from there.” But very much have had that part of my brain be like, “I don't think you're going to make the progress you're going to make today.” And sometimes I just need to write it out and be like, “This is what we're going to do. When it gets done, even if it's a smaller task, I'll get like a list of stuff done.” And I'll be like, “At least I'm making progress and very much appreciate in like the 1% days where sometimes I might only do a little task.” And like that's okay too.

[00:29:54] JC: Now, do you identify as an introvert or an extrovert?

[00:29:58] PW: Surprisingly, I identify as an introvert.

[00:30:01] JC: Ah! I love it. You're an extrovert presenting. 

[00:30:04] PW: An extrovert. 

[00:30:06] JC: Same. Same. For streaming, is it really energizing and then you're tired afterwards or – 

[00:30:11] PW: Yup. 

[00:30:12] JC: Okay. So you're like full, it actually is like that social feeling that you get that like it's energizing in the moment and then afterwards you're like, “I’m going to take a nap.”

[00:30:22] PW: Yeah, yeah, very much. I am thankful I do it at the end of my day. So I don't have to do anything else post that, very much like I feel energized while I'm doing it. And once I stop, I can feel my body just be like, “All right. Shut it down. Like you're done for the day.”

[00:30:41] JC: And complete. Same. And same. We're good.

[00:30:44] PW: My entire social batteries are done. I very much will be like, “Oh, let me try to socialize with other people on the Interwebs.” And I'll be like, “Oh, Prince, you can't do that right now. Sorry. You got to go away. Play a video game or do something.” Usually it's like, “Good. Just sit here for a hot second,” and just be like, “Oh.” Just like feel my body and feel like myself recharging. Like I very much need to recharge post stream.

[00:31:15] JC: You have an Apple Watch, right? 

[00:31:16] JC: Yes, I do. 

[00:31:17] PW: Have you ever done heart rate monitoring while you've done the stream?

[00:31:20] PW: No, I haven't. I've considered actually integrating it into the stream when I do my scheduled video games, because I am curious to know if my heart rates does increase my play. But I have not done anything with heart rate before. 

[00:31:32] JC: That would interesting to me. Because you say you get some anxiety when you're doing also like brand new things. I would love to see if your heart rate is like bumping up.

[00:31:39] PW: This is a great idea. And I'm definitely going to figure out how to make that possible. 

[00:31:43] JC: Oh, my God, please do. I used to turn it on when I would do public speaking to see what it would look like. And I got a really good sense of what my heart rate does when I'm speaking, which is that it jumps and then sustains for 30 minutes. And I was like, “Well, no wonder you're wiped out at the end of this. You essentially did like a yoga class.” 

[00:31:59] PW: This makes sense. 

[00:32:01] JC: Right. So it's like probably something similar happening to you for streaming, which also explains like, at the end being like, “Oh, we’re done.”

[00:32:10] PW: This makes so much sense now. This is all coming together.

[00:32:15] JC: Now, because it is a social activity streaming, like I think some people would think it's not, right? They would just think that they're watching you do a thing. And that's that. But it's social. Do you feel like things would be different if we weren't in a pandemic where we are often not able to be social? Do you think that you would be maybe more exhausted by the social interaction of it? Or do you think maybe even streaming wouldn't have – I feel like it's really taken off during this time? 

[00:32:41] PW: Definitely. 

[00:32:42] JC: And I’m not sure that it would have. I mean, I think it would still would have been a thing, for sure. But people are finding new ways to be social.

[00:32:49] PW: That's definitely true. I think we are finding ways to be social towards the Internet with other people, because we like that aspect. That it feels very connected. I think, for me, my behavior wouldn't change just because that was part of what my goals were. But I definitely know that this was a way to create a new social element that I didn't have before. And that definitely feels like that kind of connection is what I was hoping to find and happen to fill other space that I didn't feel like it was being filled. So it worked for me. 

I don't think I could have done it without people supporting me. That part would be very difficult. If I did it all by myself, meaning like I would show up and no one would ever show up, I think that part would have devastated me. It's still hard, because I know like there's a little counter that tells you like how many people are showing up. And I've hidden that counter, because I know how much that affects me. Where like I'm like, “No one showed up today. Oh, darn.” But I'm also like, “People are human beings. Like they don't have to show up to the Twitch stream. I'm still here. I got me. I can make my own jokes and laugh at them.” And I typically do laugh at my jokes anyway. Because making my joke, no, I can't hear anybody laughing. So I got to laugh at it myself.

[00:34:04] JC: Oh, yeah, I do that. I do that all-day log guard. I have cats and a dog. It’s just like, “You want to hear my joke?”

[00:34:12] PW: I'm just imagining the cats laughing along.

[00:34:17] JC: Maybe if cats could laugh, maybe they would. But they kind of gave me a look like – They’re like, “She's doing it again. Now, she's doing it again. Make her stop.” I love cats because they're actually like kind of unchanged from their ancient origins actually. Dogs have gone through like massive genetic changes over time. But cats have not. And so you're just getting this little ancient creature that's like, “I'm not dealing with whatever you're doing.” 

[00:34:50] PW: We're done with you. Just present the food please.

[00:34:59] JC: Cats would not be interested in streaming. Let me tell you why. They’d be like no.

[00:35:03] PW: Probably not. No. 

[00:35:04] JC: Probably not. There’s no market for cat streaming.

[00:35:07] PW: I'm trying to think if I know of any like – There are some streamers who have like a little pet cam. And so like sometimes that happens. And, oh, there's a Twitch streamer, [inaudible 00:35:19] codes. They have a cat and they have like – In Twitch, you can redeem channel points because you were watching this stream for so long. You get some special reward that you can redeem. And one of her redemptions is pet attention time, or cat attention time, where she goes and pets her cat for a period of time. And I love that.

[00:35:36] JC: That's so cute. If I could like press a button and she would pet the cat, like I would like that very much. 

[00:35:42] PW: Yeah. That's pretty much how it goes. And I love it. 

[00:35:43] JC: Oh, I love it. That’s so cool. So streaming has gotten you this new community, a new social outlet. It's dedicated time for yourself, whether you want to use that for learning, or you just want to play a game. I love all this stuff. If someone wanted to get started also streaming, how would they go about it?

[00:36:07] PW: Great question. For the most part, you can start with whatever you have. I think that's really important. A lot of people think like, “Oh, to be a streamer, you have to have like a light source, or like a perfect camera, or a perfect microphone.” No. You can just show up and do the thing and like show up with what you have. Like whether it's a laptop or a desktop, you can show up and do your stream. And you might not have a special microphone. You might not have a special camera. But I think showing up, going to Twitch, pressing the go live button. Typically, a software that you have to use is like something like OBS Studio, or Twitch has their own little thing that they call Twitch Studio that you can use to kind of make the stream go live. But you just do it with what you have. Show up. Be energetic that you are there, because like it's important. You got to cherish your own wins. And I think doing that, just being there, and just chit chatting and telling your friends like, “Hey, I'm going to try to do this. Will you show up for me?” And like just have them back you up. I did that with my friends where I was like, “Would you be willing to show up and just chit chat with me with programming?” And they were. 

And maybe you don't like it. But I would assume you should try it at least and see how it feels for you. Because some people, they don't like it. And like that is okay. I don't want you to do something you don't like. But you might like it, and you might want to try it again. And over the course of time, you might feel like, “Okay, maybe just I start upgrading my setup a little bit to doing the things that I want to do.” Some people like to do hardware projects. Some people do chess on Twitch. So you can do very much your own thing that is a space of showing who you are. And in my opinion, that's the best reason to be on a live streaming thing, is to show who you are, because people are interested in that.

[00:37:49] JC: That's a good note. People are interested in like what you have to offer. Just not something you feel all the time in the real world.

[00:38:00] PW: It doesn't feel like it aligns like that. But in Twitch, I think there is cultivated space for almost any type of thing that you might be interested in. For instance, there are people who do Lego builds on Twitch stream. And I think that's amazing. I would love to see more of that. There are some people who just do knitting, and some people who do like 3D printing. So this thing that we've connected with game programming, or games, which that has a massive platform on there. Don't get me wrong. But it's not the only thing that's there. And everyone wants to see something that they're interested in. So if you have interest in it, I'm sure other people do too.

[00:38:35] JC: So if you're not streaming, but you're watching a stream, what do you like to watch the most?

[00:38:40] PW: Great question. I find myself most connected to video game streams. I do love watching Lego builds. Those are my favorite. I think because I just get to like watch them do the thing. One of my friends, she's a Twitch streamer. And some streamers call themselves variety streamers who do various different types of game. Some streamers do a solo type of game for a while. They'll do that for a while. But she's a variety streamer. So she does different types of indie games. And like, for me, that's my style of games where people – It might be it's meant to be built by a small studio or might have like specific aesthetic. So those are the types of games I like to watch. I just like to be around her and her community because they're also all fun. And so that's just generally what I find myself doing. 

YouTube, whole other ballgame. That place has too much of everything. And that's a good thing. I just don't really know. The algorithm really tries its hardest to tell me, “Oh, this is what you want to watch.” But most of the time it is not correct.

[00:39:38] JC: It is not correct. And so I do watch things on YouTube, because like – Like Brad Mondo, he does like hair stuff. And it's like he goes through like the mistakes that were made for like how the hair got dyed and stuff like that. So I learned a lot. And I don't do my own hair for this reason, because I watched his videos. I was like, “No.”

[00:39:57] PW: You learn. Like, “Hey, it may not be for me.”

[00:40:01] JC: Yeah. But then YouTube's like, “Would you like these other fail videos?” I’m like, “No, that wasn't what I was looking for. But thank you for the suggestion. No. But thank you, YouTube.”

[00:40:15] PW: Back in 2020, I got into coffee making. And so I've been enjoying that process a lot. And so now I see nothing but coffee content.

[00:40:23] JC: All coffee all the time.

[00:40:26] PW: Surprisingly, it doesn't energize you like having a cup of coffee though. If I just have a cup coffee, I feel a lot better than just watching people making coffee.

[00:40:35] JC: Yeah. Surprisingly, not intaking the coffee has not the desired effects. 

[00:40:41] PW: Who knew? 

[00:40:42] JC: Does Twitch also do recommendations like that? Like so if someone wants to start watching your stream, and then they want to find other streams, will it recommend to them?

[00:40:51] PW: So it has a recommendation algorithm. It's not very good.

[00:40:56] JC: Okay. Noted. 

[00:40:58] PW: One of the ways that people find other streamers is, as a streamer, you can set like who you would want to share other people who are streaming with. So it's called hosting a stream. So basically, when you're offline, have other people see other people who are streaming, who are online, on our channel. 

[00:41:16] JC: Oh, fascinating. 

[00:41:17] PW: And so that's one way to show people who are like interested in your stuff. Other people who are doing that thing. In addition, one of the mechanics you can kind of integrate with your Twitch stream is to shout out other creators. So like, for instance, there are creators who I know people watching might be interested in to them. So I share their content that way. But typically, there isn't like a good recommendation through Twitch. And generally, you're finding people on Twitch who are like streaming and other platforms. That's usually how it goes.

[00:41:45] JC: Twitch is the most popular one of the streaming? 

[00:41:48] PW: Yes.

[00:41:49] JC: And then what is sort of like a secondary platform that a lot of people stream on?

[00:41:54] PW: YouTube, that's probably the most interesting thing. You could have a whole episode about something like that, where like how people view Twitch and how people view YouTube, and very much like why people go to either. It's very interesting when you have a YouTube channel. That's where a lot of people have done a lot of research around like should you be on Twitch? Or should you be on YouTube? And how does that work?

[00:42:15] JC: I did not know.

[00:42:16] PW: There's a whole thing, a whole thing. I don't know either. I’ve consider making a YouTube channel, but I don't think I can do pre-recorded content yet.

[00:42:24] JC: I would be more scared of going on YouTube just because I've been on YouTube, but I've seen the comments. Even comments on like my old like conference talk videos. Bless the conferences that like will not allow people to comment on the videos. Thank you, because it saves me so much harassment.

[00:42:46] PW: For real. I have been on like a few things where the YouTube videos don't have comments, or none. And I have some where there are. And I'm thankful for the people who turned them off, because my experiences, when they were on, were hoard. Like I said, people like to share one thing. Maybe you could have kept that to yourself.

[00:43:06] JC: You do not have to have every thought. You go on to the comment page, you can just silently grumble to yourself. I don't understand

[00:43:15] PW: You can be like, “I don’t like this,” and just say that. You can write it in a journal if you want, just like, “I didn't like this video.” Perfect. Close the journal. Throw it away.

[00:43:25] JC: Light it on fire, because no one cares.

[00:43:29] PW: Usually, it's also interesting where people think that it's helping further the conversation, but rather, it's just them expressing how they feel. And like there's two different acts. I have found some comments or people asking for more detail. And I find like those be valuable. But for the most part, people aren't nice. We can just leave it at that. That's it. That's it.

[00:43:49] JC: We can just leave it at that. Just like sometimes people would be rude. It's a whole thing. When you put yourself out there, there is the likelihood, especially if you are not the standard, that you're going to get some really rude comments that they would not have posted if you are the standard. That is the reality, unfortunately. I'm very grateful for moderator tools and being able to hide replies and stuff like that. And thank God. 

Okay, believe it or not, the podcast is like kind of over, and we're done. But it went so quickly. This was so good. What final thoughts or things you want to leave with people as we say goodbye to our audience today?

[00:44:34] PW: Two thoughts. First thought, don't punish yourself for not getting things done. Reward yourself for the progress that you make. Punishing yourself will not get you to do it harder. So that's what I'm going to leave you with. And then the second thing, if you're interested in Twitch streaming, and you listen to this podcast, let me know. You can find me on the Twittersphere or the Twitch. And you could tell me like, “Hey, Prince, I started this because I listen to this podcast.” And I will happily be your viewer at any given point. So I'll make that happen. And I'll let you know why I like coming through.

[00:45:12] JC: That is so lovely. And links to your Twitch stream as well as your Twitter profile will be in show notes if you want check that out. Prince, thank you again. This was fantastic. It's such a good time. Thank you for joining me.

[00:45:24] PW: Thank you for having me.

[OUTRO]

[00:44:55] JC: Huge shout out for Prince for joining me on the podcast. If you want to check out his stream, it is Tuesdays in the evening, Eastern Standard Time. I will put a link to both his Twitter and his stream in the show notes. See you all next week. 

[END]