The Kramer Series (3/N): Education in Automated Economy (feat. David Kramer)
Published: 2023-12-29 23:39:26

The conversation explores the transformation of education and the future of learning. It discusses the role of research and research communities in shaping education. The importance of a well-rounded education and the need to adapt to market needs are highlighted. The conversation also delves into how real-time education will change and the potential disruption of the traditional education system. The role of humans in future education is examined, along with the vision for a more personalized and automated learning experience. An anecdote is shared to illustrate the challenges in traditional education. In this conversation, Krish and David discuss the impact of automation and AI on education. They explore the challenges and benefits of personalization in learning, as well as the potential loss of the human element. They also discuss the importance of building trust with digital entities and the future of education in a hyper-personalized world. They touch on the balance between automation and human interaction, using the example of playing chess. Ultimately, they emphasize the need to embrace change and make choices that prioritize the things that truly matter.

## Takeaways
- Education is undergoing a transformation, driven by advancements in technology and the need to adapt to market demands.
- Research and research communities play a crucial role in shaping the future of education.
Real-time education and personalized learning experiences will become the norm.
- The traditional education system is likely to be disrupted, leading to new models and approaches.
- The role of humans in education will evolve, with digital technologies and automation playing a significant role. Automation and AI have the potential to dramatically change education, offering personalized learning experiences.
- While personalization can enhance learning, it may also lead to a loss of the human element in education.
- Building trust with digital entities is crucial in a hyper-personalized world.
- The future of education will involve a balance between automation and human interaction.

## Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Setting the Stage
00:53 Transformation of Education: Research and Research Communities
06:31 Well-Rounded Education and Adapting to Market Needs
11:25 Interacting with Real-Time Education
19:47 Disruption of Traditional Education System
30:49 The Role of Humans in Future Education
41:10 Research, Training, and Execution in Education
46:07 The Vision for Future Education
47:31 Anecdote: Challenges in Traditional Education
48:01 Introduction to Advanced Calculus
49:26 The Challenge of Personalization
50:26 The Potential Lack of Human Element
51:31 Building Trust with Digital Entities
52:29 Interacting with Teachers in a Hyper-Personalized World
53:52 The Future of Education and Personalization
55:25 The Balance Between Automation and Human Interaction
56:52 The Example of Playing Chess
57:22 The Importance of Human Personalization
01:03:17 Finding a Balance in a Changing World
01:06:00 Embracing Change and Making Choices
01:10:42 Prioritizing the Things That Matter

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## Transcript
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (00:02.346)
Hey folks, our guest today is Kramer. Kramer is the founder and chief product officer of Cooperative Computing. He's dedicated to transforming lives, is the father of nine, still married to the wonderful girl and lives in Dallas, Texas. Hey Kramer, thanks for joining today's podcast.
David Kramer (00:18.765)
Yep, it is exciting to be here. Thank you very much for allowing me to participate in these with you.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (00:24.39)
My pleasure. Without further ado, let's get right in. And folks, if you've been watching the previous two podcasts, I highly recommend you do so, the ones with Kramer, especially the last one, because we're going to literally pick up from where we left off last week. One of the last things that Kramer was saying in that podcast when I interrupted Kramer and apologies for that was, we want to save that for today's session. The question was, the question I posed to Kramer was, how should education change?
And there were three points that Kramer mentioned. I'm just going to repeat them and then we'll go one after the other. The first point was, Kramer mentioned that education, as we know it today, will be transformed in three ways I'm quoting. The first is what we do for our research and research communities is going to drastically change. So Kramer, we could probably start today's conversation there, if that makes sense.
David Kramer (01:17.217)
You bet. And I think it's important that we understand it in the context of what we're really focused on, which is education, right? And so when we think about education and we put it in the context of how we are gonna educate our next generation of students, we have to think of that in the context of the very early stage educational systems and what is being adopted in those early stage education systems, right?
And so that will lead into why research is going to be so important as one of the key things that education is going to be transformed into education as a result of what's happening in the markets today. So as we start to look at early stage education, and I'm going to take that from say somewhere in the third grade on, and we look at how that prepares for what then happens inside the collegiate and university worlds. And we look at the
primary factors of what the collegiate and university worlds do as outcomes, right? One of the things that we see quickly being changed is how much effort and work the universities are being pulled into from the research side of the house, right? And as we start to look at what the machine learning and AI is using, I'm going to focus on machine learning specifically for now, right? You've got
massive quantities of data, those massive quantities of data have to be tagged, they've got to be curated, and they've got to be processed. And they got to get into a state that they can then be consumed by the things that are going to be trained against that data set, right. And that leads itself into deep understanding by relatively new, educated people, meaning these are first year, second year students that typically get the task of doing this work.
As they're doing it, however, they're getting informational knowledge that is hugely valuable to what they're going to do as they go through their college education. And so all the way from your junior years on up, the things that we are trained to do are trained to kind of make us holistic in who we are as a part of civilization. We're taught history.
David Kramer (03:37.389)
grammar and mathematics and how to read and how to write and do all these wonderful things right, that make us a well-rounded individual as we start to enter our educational years at the secondary education levels right, in the collegiate years and the university years. So the first transformation we're going to start to see is that these universities are going to start to pull back down and today they go after football stars and basketball stars and you're promoted into those college.
facilities because you're really good at athletics. We're going to start to see that you're also going to get promoted in because you're really good at the capability and the artisan for being able to manage these research projects and get great outcomes. Because while you can have five to 10 people out of a class that may be possible to go into a next level sports program, whether you're high school, going into college.
college or university looking to promote within, you know, a major sport MLB and FL so on and so forth, right? Now your value is also, can you produce the right state of a educated person that understands how to move into this AI and machine learning world? That's going to be very practical for educational facilities as they start research programs that allow them to quickly adapt into what's happening in the markets and become relevant.
The sports programs don't change very much. I'm not trying to be ignorant on the fact that yeah, there's new ways of doing it, but you're passing a football, you have a receiver, you've got alignment, you're dribbling a ball. The things that we do for sports are still fairly characteristic even though we're improving how we do them, right? The characteristics of them are the same. What's happening in AI and machine learning is changing by the month, by the quarter.
These things that are changing are changing because they're being changed mostly with inside a world where the research world is adopting to what's happening in private sector. And private sectors, open source worlds are changing things probably more rapidly and they're doing so with the adoption of university students participating in that open source world. So what's gonna happen is a whole new model is gonna start to show up where educators, right? Universities, so on and so forth.
David Kramer (06:00.905)
are gonna start to take in and educate as a fact of this research work that they're doing and start to get the buildup of a student into the same state that they would a major athlete. And so they're gonna prep you for the next, I think number three, I said, one of the things that we're gonna have to do or maybe number two is how we measure success, right? We're gonna start to build up and be championship colleges.
for these.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (06:31.53)
Hey, Kramer, sorry to interrupt. I was gonna go to the second and third after we finished this one. So I had a couple of questions. Should I interrupt you here? So this is a great start here. So you mentioned a number of things. I had a couple of questions before we moved on to the second and the third points that you mentioned last week, right? So you said early stage education systems and you said starting with third grade. So here's my question to you.
David Kramer (06:39.137)
Okay? Yeah, yes please.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (06:58.178)
You mentioned third grade and you also mentioned well-rounded education. So I'm going to play the devil's advocate here. Well-rounded, if I said, what if I thought of well-rounded education as how each of us went through our third grade, for instance, years ago, but dramatically differently in conjunction with being well-rounded, if we needed to adapt to what's changing rapidly in today's world and starting third grade.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (07:28.171)
Would there be a potential conflict between being well-rounded and being sort of trying to learn something driven by what the current market needs are? Because they may have sometimes can I say that they may have little to do with each other?
David Kramer (07:43.133)
You can, but here's what's gonna drastically shift, okay? My son right now is, he's 13 years old and they've already started him in a program where when he graduates high school, he'll have an associate's degree, okay? This program is a school system that's adjunct to the university he's gonna go into, right? And why I say that early stage education is gonna matter is because…
We are going to see the influence of AI and machine learning across every discipline. History, right? The arts, generation of music, generation of art that we actually visualize, mathematics. Every aspect of what we consider a well-rounded education is going to quickly be augmented slash adapted by what we can do inside the systems that are inside.
machine learning and AI. So those educational systems are the ones that are more advanced are starting to take advantage of it right now. Right? As you turn into education systems that are more inner city and have the larger populations that they have to deal with, the ability for them to get open door access to what is now
you know, considered to be probably one of the most elite college educations AI machine learning, right? It isn't going to be that elitism is going to be, uh, I'm going to say quickly mitigated because the work that you're going to do is going to be so free-forming is going to be so consumerized. Uh, I have a grandson that is right now three and a half. Okay. When I introduced him.
to what is happening in some of the AI generation tools, he adopted it in probably three days. Within three days, he understands how to prop the system and how to get the movie that he wants to be generated. And he's going through YouTube videos with his brother who's older than him. He's asking his brother who's older, how do I do this, right? Now, how is he doing this? His age is too young to be in the tools. Well, he came to me, his mother said, I need an account so I can do X, Y, or Z.
David Kramer (10:04.009)
because it's gamified. It operates in a gamified fashion. It looks like a game. It looks like toys that you and I would play with that are doing amazing and massive things. So a well-rounded education that used to be history, math, you know, government, da-d is all being digitized and I can interact with them real time. At three, what he's going to interact with in his educational system at three years old.
is going to so far blow our minds and prepare him for what he's going to do when he gets into higher education, that it's going to enable what is going to be the next generation of the sapient being able to take its place inside our world as a standard citizen. Because he's just going to be dealing with it every day. You know, he's going to be talking to George and we talked to George, George and here we're going to interact and George is going to be.
digital sapient and he's not going to think anything of it. You know, who's your best friend at school? George. What do you and George do? We go through history together. So that's what I meant by the educational system and what's happening at these more well-rounded education processes that are going to happen. They're going to happen because the gamification of them is going to make us excited to interact.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (11:25.674)
Okay, that's great. I have a number of questions there, but you know, the way the conversation is progressing, Kramer, I think I might as well call out for the other two points because I believe, you know, we're going to touch on all of those three items sort of simultaneously. So, folks, the other two points that Kramer mentioned was how we interact with real-time education is going to change and what we do to certify who we are is also going to change. So there are three items and we're going to talk about all of them. We started with one of them, but let me go to the questions. I just want to…
in the interest of completeness, I wanna capture those three bullets that we left the last conversation with. So based on what you're seeing, Kramer, here's my takeaway. But let me give you an example before I ask my question. In today's college, actually let me do it the other way around. I'm sensing that the fundamentals of learning are gonna have to change. The way we've learned, the way you learned in college, the way I learned in college, and the way your son or your grandson is gonna learn is gonna be very, very different.
But here is my question. When I was in college a while ago, let's say the market was using a certain kind of programming language or a framework, the college was well aware that those changes were happening. It was not like it happened yesterday. Maybe it happened six months ago, maybe it went two years ago. But the systems did not catch up. They were not able to keep pace for whatever reason with what is happening in the market. And if you fast forward many years,
You know how, being in the business of engineering and software, you know well how frequently some of these frameworks and languages change and become popular. Like what was popular as a JavaScript framework yesterday or three months ago is not really something we want to use today for a variety of different reasons. And it seems almost unreasonable to expect, you know, I say unreasonable because how do you expect the education institutions, educational institutions to constantly adapt?
to this and I was going to go to the third grade question. I have a more difficult question if you will, but I want to start hearing your thoughts on if I were an educational institution with all these things changing and I have lots of these rules and regulations and yada, where do you think an institution should start making these changes?
David Kramer (13:39.997)
Yeah, so, and there's two primary factors of this. Okay. One is access to the thing that makes change easy to adopt. The second is access to the thing that makes it relevant when you adopt it. Okay. And so if you look at a traditional education system, we would go get our books from the publishers, right. And those books had to be changed. We had to get a different version. They had to get circulated. They had to get rolled out. We had to certify and sign off on what was in that educational material.
That whole process, while it has been somewhat digitized in today's world, that digitization is going to become a much more rapid and much more advanced state of digitization from the collection of the people who are going to consume it. What do I mean by that? So if I'm a third grade student and I want to understand how something works in the human eye, today in school, I would go to an authorized book.
that authorized book may give me some reading material and some online stuff through the internet that I go that has a really good explanation of all the components, right? And then I would know that I was preparing for the test because I've got to pass the test, right? And why do I have to pass the test? Because the test is getting a certification that I'm ready for the next grade. So I don't show up half prepared for the next grade, right?
And so everything is built around this construct and I call it the, the process, and I'm going to use the acronym, but you know, I've got to teach you, I have to train you, and then I have to make certain what is written down is consumable to continue that teaching and the training on as you evolve, right? So how do we see that show up in the school? You're, we're going to be in chapter six. I'm going to give a little bit of a lecture series on this through the teaching.
I'm going to then give you some work that you can actually use as part of the training. And then you have the book to refer back to. So that TT, right? Teach, train, write it down, WID. That TTWID process is being advanced at MOT5. So what were the two components, we said, that allowed education to change? One, the access to what's changing and the distribution of that is elegant for me to use. We did that through books in the old days.
David Kramer (16:04.093)
Right? Or I'm calling it the old days. I'm already thinking ahead. And second, how relevant is it when I sent it out? Now, in the scope of most things, mathematics, right? History, education around language and language arts, anything around sports and sports medicine, things of that nature, band, right? All of these things that allowed you to participate in this well-rounded set of stuff required me to interact with it.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (16:06.696)
Great.
David Kramer (16:31.901)
in a physical world because the virtualization of those things was not adequate enough to allow you to actually interact with it in a composite fashion. Right? So we would go to sports because we wanted them to actually get the physical activity. I think sports will still have a physical activity, but that physical activity may be augmented in such a way that I can participate in sports in a small school that I never get to participate in.
And because a larger school had a bigger gym and had more facilities, you know, so on and so forth. So the tools that are going to embody educational change now are going to rapidly and drastically change. Okay. We're working with a couple of companies on this right now, the education in the future for, and I, and I use third grade and up just because some of the tools are more adaptable to that age group, using them, the dexterity and such, they're going to blow your mind. They're.
absolutely going to change what our three-year-olds do to learn. We are doing testing right now that shows that a three-year-old's ability to learn math, learn other languages, and learn what I'm going to call logical sequence constructs, right, which is the ability for us to have control of what we're doing and how we're doing that in cognitive function. Five times the speed, right? Why?
because the gamification process allows us to, for some reason, incorporate this and learn it much quicker, and it sticks much better. And so as we gamify what we're doing, which digital allows us to do much more effectively, we can roll these things out into a classroom setting at a click of a button. If I want to upgrade from 2.1 to 2.4, I do it overnight.
The educator sits down, understands it when the student comes in the morning, 2.5 is available to them, and 2.5 introduces this new construct. JavaScript is, and we're not doing this at three, but as an example, as a three-year-old, I've got to learn simple mathematical skills and how they relate to things that I'm going to do in the world. So what would we do? We'd put that on the whiteboard into a book. He'd see a picture. He's going to interact with that in real time. And he's going to interact with that in real time.
David Kramer (18:52.561)
and be given an opportunity to change what the real-time environment is he's interacting with. He'll have JavaScripting languages. He'll have things that are put in front of him to let him change what that configuration looks like and adapt what he's doing and hyper-personalize it. Right? The world that he lives in now is an educational building of his own that allows him to start to teach himself in a way he wants to be taught. Whether that's verbal, whether that's interactive or whether that's written. Those
two constructs, I can get it to you immediately and I can make it relevant to you, is going to drastically change the adoption rate of new education into the facilities that they're operating in. And the facilities may change. The traditional school system and how you go to school and you have to get on a bus and all the things, all of that's going to change the world in which we learn and grow to achieve the things we want to achieve.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (19:47.142)
You know, let me, I was going to interrupt you there, but that's a good point for me to ask this question. So over the years, right, since the beginning of time, you know, we talked about how things are changing and at what rapid pace that they are changing and whether a lot of these other systems are keeping up to the pace. And I just took JavaScript as a simple example, but you know, we've had education for the most part in most of the world where you go to school, you know, you start at kindergarten and then you go from grade one to grade 12.
Now, it's called a little bit differently in different countries. For the most part, it's called almost that. You know, I know my wife's from Malaysia. They have they call it a little bit differently in Malaysia. I believe it's like up to grade six and then they call it forms one to five and something of that nature. But but there's not fundamentally it's the same. And the majority of the world is like grade one to grade 12. And then we go to college. Four years of college education. In some cases, it's three years of undergrad.
three as well. And then you have masters and PhD and double PhD and so on and so forth. If I call that the core tenets of how educational institutions work, Kramer, would you agree that those have not changed in like years? I mean, everything else around that has changed. What we are learning has changed. So is there going to be, are we at a point where there's going to be disruption saying two years down the road, five years down the road, 10 years down the road, maybe a whole lot sooner?
David Kramer (21:00.337)
Years. Yes.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (21:13.494)
Do you expect that to not be anything like what we are seeing today? Like a kid is not going to spend 12 years in school, not going to spend 4 years in college and 2 years doing masters. What is your take if I said that this should not look anything like it does today? Is that a fair thing to say?
David Kramer (21:29.789)
It is, and it's going to do that across four dimensions. And those four dimensions are quite simple. So the education space, where are we set to be educated is one. Okay. The methods and procedures that we utilize is going to be two. The organizational structure that gets laid on top of that are teachers and what do they do and how do they interact? Okay. And this is, um, this top.
may inflame some people, but it's just the truth. And the truth will, it's just gonna be what it's gonna be, right? So educators, one of the things that is student to teacher groupings has been demonstrated for several years as to how well those students learn and how well they get treated individually, okay? And hype of the education system, just like medicine, that's happening in medicine as well, is gonna occur because it can be. It can be.
And therefore your educator, the person who's going to interact with you on your learning ability, whether you learn through reading and then taking the reading written concepts and processing them back through, through some sort of testing material or whether you learn because someone's interacting with you or whether you learn because you got to fiddle with it with your fingers. That hyper personalization may be different between the learning things that you're learning.
How I learn on music may be different than how I learn in mathematics, which may be different than how I learn about things that are in the creation of space that I'm going to deal with for art and things of that nature. Hyper-personalism is possible at mass scale. Therefore, it's only within the mind of the person being educated as to what that looks like. It's no longer going to be in the limitations of the educational system. So as I show up to be educated, the very first thing that happens is where does show up to be educated look like?
And how does that work? And I'm just going to throw this out here to build a school system. Okay. And I'm going to use Alan where we're at, right? There was something like $130 million put into the school and then another hundred million dollars put into the sports stadium and so on and so forth. Right. And that allows the hallways and the lockers and the teachers and everything to be institutionalized and set up the way it is today, right. And students for the most part fall into four categories. One.
David Kramer (23:49.437)
I like it because it's social and I get to work with other people around me. Okay. Two, I like it because I can interact with my teacher on a much more personalized level and get answers to what I want quickly. Three, I like it because I get out of a space that I'm not happy in. And this gives me this other free space. Okay. And number four, I like it because the systems that they have access to and the things I have access to in those systems are much more advanced than what I could get on my own.
All four of those systems are going to drastically change. In a hyper-personalized educational pod that you set in, that the state has paid for, and let's say they paid $10,000 per student, okay? And they upkeep it and they keep it clean. And you go into an immersive education system, you will have everything at your fingertips. The teacher will be yours personally. All the education will be tailored to you. It'll be tailored to you. It'll all be customized to you.
Your success, I was lucky. I left home in a very young age. So I didn't go to a traditional school. I went and got my schooling through a whole different methodology. And I went through school myself. I went through 12 years of school in about six and a half years, because I didn't have to wait on anything. I took the educational material. I took it home at the end of the day. I worked on it very quickly. I then took the test that they gave me. I went and handed the test in and poof. It was, you know,
I just went through it at my own pace, okay? That's gonna be how the whole educational system works. The whole thing. Therefore, how we interact with real-time education, it's gonna drastically change. It's gonna look more like a pilot that's in training. We take a pilot, we put him in a simulator, we let him wreck that thing 150 times before we ever get him close to the $1.7 billion F-16 fighter, okay? It is 100% gamified.
We don't call it a game, but it's gamified. And you know quickly, is this guy going to make it or not? You know, he crashes that thing 10 or 15 times and there's no forward momentum. You kind of let him know this thing for probably ain't you. Right. And we're going to do the same thing with our students. They're going to immerse themselves in educational opportunity that let's say at eighth grade, they're testing heart surgery.
David Kramer (26:11.165)
and play with heart surgery. Do you like being a surgeon? Do you like interacting with the person that you have to tell that, hey, you've got a neurological problem, it's a tumor, and you're gonna let them interact with all these environments to see what is it you really like to do, and one of those things are gonna fit. And when it fits, you're done. You will spend every waking moment excited about doing that thing.
And if you want to be an NBA star and you are involved in this and you go, Oh, you know what? I ain't got it. You're not going to blow a bunch of money going through trying to become an NBA star when you can't, or you're going to find out, I got a knack for this. I'm really talented at this and I should pursue this and everyone around you is going to watch and go, you're good at that. So how we interact with real-time education, it is going to be totally different, totally different. And the rate at which we can adopt it is going to be.
massively transformative, massively transformed, meaning the school systems can be potified tomorrow. We can potify them tomorrow. The technology to potify them is here today. All we need is the visionary and the educational process to say we're going to potify Allen High School. And when you come in and you're potified, we still going to have break. You can still go out and sit around with the kids and play with them in the, you know, the schoolyard. You can still have the sports position.
But man, we're going to massively change how we educate you. Okay? And then that means the way we measure whether you're successful or not massively changes. Why? For you and I to test out on an F-16 plane at real time is much different today than it would have been 10 or 15 years ago. And we're going to be able to do that very, very rapidly. There's three things we teach in digital enablement at cooperative computing. One, thought leadership is behind.
We are where we are because our thought leadership in our communities is not yet advanced to the state it needs to. Two, the art of possible is not, we're not keeping up with it. Right. And three, the risk of failure has shrunk and we don't recognize it, but we can go out and do, we did a test for $1,100 and a credit card. You can deploy 600 servers, all the application code, all of the e-commerce.
David Kramer (28:31.841)
put a product out there and go throw out all the marketing and make sure it does what it needs to do and see whether or not that thing's gonna get picked up or not, $1,100 on a credit card. You and I come from the world where that would have cost us so much more than that to make that happen, right? And therefore the risk of trying something has gone down so draconianly, we just don't know it yet. It isn't yet in everyone's bones that it doesn't take a whole lot to test. So therefore…
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (28:47.414)
Absolutely.
David Kramer (29:00.565)
We are going to transform the outcomes. Our universities are going to become massively, massively ingrained in research and development, and they're going to help corporations do things they've never done before. That downstream pressure on the education system is going to allow education real-time interaction with what is education to change, because it's going to get funded from private sector into university, university into the mid-market education.
And this is going to get driven because of the economic advancements that we're making about how we want to consume things. And therefore the measure, your master's degree that you and I worked so hard to go get or PhD, whichever it is, right. And all the work we put into it and writing our thesis paper and spreading that thesis paper out, man, whether we like it or not, there are large language models that will write a thesis paper for you and I that we can then curate.
that are so far advanced that it's stupid for us to think we're going to out think the machine that's given us the information. It just isn't going to happen. Therefore the best educator is going to be the system. All three of these things are going to transform drastically what education is about and what it's supposed to do to enable humankind to deal with the new sapient, the homo sapient and the digital sapient.
are gonna learn this new cohesion together, right? And we're not gonna outthink it. It just isn't gonna happen. So what are we gonna do better than it? Well, we're gonna learn what those are and we're gonna learn how we fit that into our education system and how we adopt the things we need to do in a more adequate and permanent fashion for mankind to live what I think is an abundant life. The life abundance is gonna totally blow up.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (30:49.439)
No creamer?
I'm trying to make notes here as quickly as possible. Hopefully I captured a lot of what you said. No worries, but I have a lot of these points captured. So let me recap some of them, right? So you mentioned research. So I jotted it down as three categories, research, train and execute. And here is what I mean by that. Somebody has got to do the research to figure out how should teaching happen? What is probably the right way?
David Kramer (30:56.314)
I'm sorry.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (31:19.518)
or a better way to teach and how should it be different from how we might be teaching today, right? So research is one component. The second one is training the educators. So once the research has been complete, now let's say I did the research, I come to you, Kramer's educator, a teacher, a professor, a tutor, I say, hey Kramer, here's my research, here's how I think education is progressing. So you've been teaching something a certain way in the past.
You're gonna have to make those adjustments. So I'm gonna have to train you, right? That's the second component. The third, as I see it, is execution. Now, I did, party A did all of the research. They did a wonderful job. Party B actually communicated that research to the educators. Let's say they did a wonderful job as well. Now the educator needs to execute on that learning and take that to literally to the field, to the classrooms.
whether it's online or be it in person, so that actually happens successfully, right? So there's three steps as I see it. There's probably more, but at the highest level, research, train and execute. Now, if all of these things happen brilliantly, everyone's gonna be happy and we're hunky-dory. But let's say one of them falls apart. If the research fell apart, I figure, you know, if I don't do the research correctly, I'm gonna train you based on that poor research, which means I'm training you.
on incorrect items, and now you're going to take that execution. And let's say I did the research correctly, but not the training so well. That's going to hurt as well. But if I did that research and training well, but you did the execution not so well, that's going to be a problem too. So these are three broad items. I have more questions, but let me pause here. How do we address each of these three areas independently and very…
Before we get to the specifics of the industries, which I have followed questions on, if I said Kramer, how would we do this generically? Let's forget the problem. Let's pretend that playing the piano, writing code, cooking and you know, making a wonderful dish, or you know, playing sports, let's pretend that all of them have the same requirements in terms of skills. We know that they don't, but let's assume that they do. How would you address these three items?
David Kramer (33:34.487)
Yes.
David Kramer (33:38.133)
Yes. So I'm going to, I'm going to shift the three items a little bit because the educator is going to, is going to change the educator. Our education system has got to adopt into what the new world's going to look like. So the educator is going to become digital and that digital educator is not going to have to be instructed as much. What's going to happen in the education system is the methods for education as they train.
the things that we said on bullet number two and three when they start to kick in, right? It's gonna take a very focused effort. And remember our primary method of education in the continental United States is still public education. Okay, private education is a growing thing but it still is not as broad in how it's being adopted as the public education system, okay? So,
Let's just start with the public education system. So, and let's take your first tenant, which is research, right? And in a pattern methodology, right? A way that we can consistently get education, um, to go into the minds and hearts of those that need to be educated, right? What is going to shift at the fundamental levels of the educational structure is that
our ability to say, are we going to let our students now interact in a very interactive way with the AI and the machine learning, there will be different mindsets. And those mindsets are going to be different because of the communities they come from. In San Francisco, they're probably going to be much more open to a full digital education system. There are no teachers. We have 15,000 students. There is someone who makes certain that the systems are all online and they're all working.
There's someone who's measuring that the educational material that's going out is being prompted properly and no one's cheating the system, but I'm gonna educate 15,000 students and I'm gonna do so with no teachers that are human. They're all gonna be sapiens that are digital sapiens. Okay, why? Because they're gonna interact with that student in the ways that we have just spoken about. So one is the research, okay? That research is how are we gonna adopt this new digital education methodology?
David Kramer (35:54.973)
and who's going to adopt it in the manner that gets us the best outcomes. If I'm in Roswell, Kentucky, right? Population 4,500 school setting class of 25 across all grades. That adoption rate may be much different than if I'm in the heart of San Francisco and I adopt it. The research and how we adopt those at a consistent fashion globally, or let's just take the continent of the United States for now, right? That.
First set of research parameters is going to be different than just educational research. It's going to be social and economic research that goes alongside it to make certain we get the best outcome on the future education system. So that's the answer to what do we have to do for research. Then the second component of that research, if we do it well and how we actually get that into a state where we can say what is it we're educating on and how do we get the educator trained to do that, that's all digital.
So if we want to teach someone music, the musician and the person teaching you that as a digital musician will be able to ensemble anything you want and personalize it any way you want. And so therefore the instructional material that you want, I start out with guitar, I start playing guitar. I find that that's monotonous for me. I go to wind instrument. Ooh, I like the wind instrument. Right. And that's really interactive. I enjoy that better.
That interaction today would cost you, let's just say a good guitar is 120, a good wind instrument's $300, that's a $500 commitment that mom and dad will either rent from the music, you know, the place you get it because you don't want to buy it yet. But now I can try all these things and I can test them all. And I can do all that try out in ways I couldn't before. So the instruction of the educator, first the research, that's going to be done at a much more global level.
Right? Probably in municipalities that are saying, I need to get my community educated in a way that outperforms other ones, because I want San Francisco to outperform. I want Kentucky to outperform. So the research has to now be done at a different level than it was before. I'm no longer trying to figure out how to make sure that the teachers are trained and the books are rolled out and the facilities are yada, because digitizing this changes all of that and transforms it. Second, how do I make certain that
David Kramer (38:18.869)
teachers are instructed on what to do, that's gonna be instantaneously implemented. If I wanna, let's say we've got a new fighter, I'm going with airplanes because there's so much complexity in how you have to do this, right? Let's say I wanna roll out a new fighter and I wanna roll it out and get pilots trained, right? One of the very first things that gets built is a simulator. It gets built right in parallel with the actual fighter that's gonna be rolled out because you know you gotta train a pilot on it, almost day number two.
So I'm doing simulation work long before anything else. I've gamified it. That digital gamification and digital twinning processes for how we operate things is just going to become second nature and going to just roll out with things. And so things like OpenCV and all the tools that we're starting to interact with that take us into the digital world are going to have digital twinning built into them. It's not going to be a separate system. It's just going to be a part of how it works.
process of rolling out the education to the educator is going to be a digital educator. It's going to be just rolled out as a standard way of operating. And so the third thing, right? Did that education get implemented and is it getting the results we want? It's going to be measured in stanniously because one, you as you're running through a game and let's stay away from shooter games while you can, there's good scores there, but let's, let's take a game that's a little more intellectual.
that you're operating within. And let's say it's a game where you have to build a city, you've got to get all the right funding for all the right parts, you've got to get everyone collectively going. So there's a little more brain trust going into how you do this game. Your measurement systems are built into the game. You know whether you're succeeding or failing, in stanniously. The feedback loop is instant. Everything we interact with in future education is going to have that instantaneous feedback. And it's expected. Anything less, you know,
If you take someone who's five years old, when they graduate high school, if they don't get data-driven decisions instantly, if it isn't hyper-personalized and hyper-automated, which is the whole digital enablement for the automated economy, they're not going to touch it. They're just not going to touch it. And education is going to be just like that for them. And so how we interact with that education system and those three components that you spoke about, the twist on this is that the educator…
David Kramer (40:46.737)
It's going to be digital sapient 99% of the time, even when it comes to really super advanced things like neurosurgery and things of that nature. It's just going to be so much more sophisticated to do it in a gamified system that you can rapidly adopt to and see real time what you're making mistakes on. You know, it's just going to be different in the next five to 10 years.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (41:10.786)
So, very interesting. So when I asked the question, I didn't realize it, but what you're saying is these three items, I wanna make sure I got that right, research, training, and execution, they're not all necessarily, not all humans as we've had all along all these years. So there's gonna be robotics, automation, AI, and all those nice things of the future that are gonna be embedded in each of these activities. So how I research?
Maybe some part of it is human research. Some part of it is not done by humans. How I you know train the educator Maybe that's not Human as well, right? There's going to be a lot of automation and machines in the picture and how you take that as a teacher or an educator now maybe you're a human educator or maybe you're a machine and then how you execute that education and you kind of You know work with the folks you you're teaching the only thing that's that seems to be
Entirely human in this whole conversation of these three items happens to be the students, right? Because the research may be done by not people or not humans Maybe the training is done by people are not humans and maybe the Execution is also done by people who may or may not be human So the only thing that's human really here in this picture are the students. I mean did I get that part, right?
David Kramer (42:13.665)
That's right.
David Kramer (42:30.529)
You got it right. And now, if we, let's for a moment say that is correct. And let's say we are okay with that and we adopt it, okay? The very next question is, if the digital world, I'm gonna call them digital sapiens for a while, if the digital sapiens are doing this work, then what is left for the human? And what is the outcome of human existence in human life? When I very first touched my very first machine,
that automated something. I was so excited. And the reason our company is called Cooperative Computing was there was a promise made to me, and I think I mentioned this early on to you, that machines were going to make our life easier. Right? And it was going to be this wonderful thing because you would just, you know, walk, it was the Jetsons, right? On my way home, dinner started preparing. When I got home, the dinner was prepared. My family was not all sweaty and hot from cooking.
The kids enjoyed their playtime. You know, that, that world of that was my mind and what the computers and the machines were supposed to do for us. And it took a long time for us to get even close to that. And now we're on the verge of the next step of that. And some of us fear it drastically. Right. And I'm saying, if we think about it and we don't fear it and we embrace it, right. What, what do we as human beings need? If we take away greed.
And we take away power and we take away all the things that divide us. And they're just gone. They're just gone. I don't, I, the food production is massively done. I no longer need this wealth and greed buildup because there, if I need something, it's manufactured, right? The manufacturing processes don't have a lot of human beings in them. No one's going into the coal mines. No one's doing all these jobs that are going to kill people. Then what is it that we look at? And.
The end state for mankind should be that we, and I'm just going to use this as an example. I have a good friend. They have this poodle. It's a beautiful poodle. This poodle has $3,000 vet bills. They do blood samples all the time and make certain he's healthy. This poodle is catered in every way possible. Okay. And I think to myself, that would be a wonderful life to be that poodle.
David Kramer (44:55.901)
Now there's all the other things that are missing, but someday that person taking care of us is a digital sapient. And we as humans operate more like the poodle and we live life however we want in whatever way we'd like to do it. And doing so, we'd spend more time on the things that divide us and figure out how to unify our species and spend less time on all these other things that are around us that are creating division. Right?
Because owning more property doesn't buy you anything. Having more gold won't buy you anything. Having all these other things won't buy you anything. And it starts with our ability to envision how we educate, right? How we let the digital sapient take over the mundane task to take stuff that is super hard for us and causes a lot of division and remove it out of the world that we're living in, right? And education is a starting point because it guides the social fabric.
of almost everything we do. Even politics is driven by most of our educational spaces that we live within and how people leave the educational system and grow up to be our leaders and our future thinkers.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (46:07.39)
Okay, so Kama, you mentioned hype We've had, we've talked about hype a few times in our conversations thus far, but in today's conversation, you mentioned it a number of times, and each of them were unique examples. Let me take that. I wanna ask you something, and I'll give you, share a small story, an anecdote. When I was 17, I was in college in my first year, in my first semester back in India.
And I vividly remember that. I was sitting in an advanced calculus class. The book was written by someone called Thomas Finney. It was a fantastic book. I have to believe probably it was an American author, Thomas Finney, F-I-N-N-E-Y. It was a big, fat book. I had studied a little bit of calculus back in high school, but very little. And this was many steps ahead of what I had studied. So I was 17.
young and I was sitting in this classroom with like 20 other students. The professor walked into the room, right, they opened the book and said, hey, we're going to be following Thomas Fenne's advanced calculus book, flipped the page and started teaching, whatever the first chapter was. There was like 25–30 of us in the classroom. We had all come from different backgrounds and different schooling systems in India. I went to school in the northwest of India in a state called Rajasthan, but the school attracts, even today, attracts people from
So in India has lots of different languages, lots of different cultures as you well know. And I give this as an example, even though it seems a little less technical compared to the rest of our conversation, because I wanna give a bit of context here. So, apologies for that. So I sat in this classroom, different school systems. We all came from different boards of education and they could not, they have the commonalities. They stress on certain aspects like math and science. It's just the way it was and probably still is today.
but they were all still very reasonably different from each other. And we all came from different backgrounds, different languages. So I'm trying to impress upon the fact that there were 30 different kids sitting, that they had, they were all Indian kids, but they had very little to do with each other. A different foods, different languages, different cultures, different backgrounds. But we were all united in the fact that we came to learn advanced calculus and on the cold morning in a book written by somebody who was an author in a different part of the world, Thomas Phinney.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (48:32.034)
When the first chapter started, the professor started, he started teaching calculus, advanced calculus. There was little by way of introduction. Hey, who's Krish? Who's George? Who's Thomas? Who's Raj? There was no time for any of that stuff. 10 minutes into it, in the first class, in my first semester, in a place that is thousand miles away from home, I was learning something that I'd never been exposed to before. So, forget hype
There was no personalization whatsoever, right? So it was very challenging and extraordinarily overwhelming for me as I was going through the class for instance. I wanna take that as an example. Now we're talking about hype where the same class could be taught very differently. Hey, Kramer is learning advanced calculus. Kramer grew up going to school in Texas. Krish is learning advanced calculus. Krish happens to have grown up in some other part of the world and is now in the US for instance.
David Kramer (48:59.587)
None.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (49:26.422)
So now this execution is dramatically improved. And you know, I want to come back. I have a question about wishful thinking to some extent, but let's say we've made all this progress. It's very personalized. So it looks like it's dramatically better than my example of learning advanced calculus in this classroom with people from different backgrounds, but not personalized. But there is, it's not all rosy because there's one fundamental difference as I can feel. There was a human that was teaching me
David Kramer (49:35.477)
Yep.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (49:56.642)
this not so personalized course in college, right? So yep, it was not personalized, but that was a human. I could stop the human who could probably react to my feelings and emotions if they chose to, if they chose to and if they wanted to. Now in this hyper-personalized world, are we talking a machine, a robot, teaching me personalizing, learning to Kramer and Krish, which is great from a personalization standpoint, but is there something potentially lacking here, Kramer,
the human element completely missing potentially? I mean, is that a problem or is that not a problem?
David Kramer (50:33.441)
Here is, I think I talked about digital friendships early on, right? And I think what we're going to find as we start to adopt this world where the digital components are going to more interact with us, right? Is that thing that we're interacting with has to understand how to build trust with us, how to create that digital friendship, right? And so the adoption of that interaction, have you ever seen soul machines?
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (51:02.411)
No.
David Kramer (51:03.773)
Soul machines is a human interface. It looks just like a person. Okay. The features, the way it interacts with you, all the components of it. Right? So if you take soul machines, you take a large language model like chat GPT, and you create this digital entity, then the interaction that you're having with this teacher looks just like a regular human to you. And the reality of that human being.
is going to become very obfuscated in the future. And some people fear that, some people just embrace that. And so you may want a teacher that's 65, they've got some wisdom behind them. As they interact with you, you're gonna challenge some of their knowledge to push up on them to see if they're really gonna teach you something. There's things you're gonna do that make that hype of who's teaching you become a part of the.
process that you're working through, right? And the system's gonna say, hey, Johnny doesn't like this teacher and I'm gonna have the principal call you and introduce a whole new teacher. Well, what does teacher swap out look like today if the teacher doesn't fit you? It's almost next to impossible. Teacher swap out is gonna happen for you instantaneously because you don't interact with the teacher well. And if you wanna stop the teacher and you're one of 30 people, right? You're not gonna be able to stop that teacher.
In the world that you live in today, unless you raise your hand, you get a few moments. In this world, you can constantly stop that teacher over and over and over again and say, I don't understand. Got it. Chris, what don't you understand? You tell them, understand for, let me change the game out that you're playing and introduce you to this other concept. Right. And in calculus, there were probably more than one thing that you went.
scratching my head on this. It sure be nice to understand and you couldn't prompt the book to give you a better example. You got the examples you got, right? And you and I didn't have the internet at our fingertips as easily as students do today, right? So this process for the educator being who we want, hyper-personalized. Our ability to stop them, hyper-personalized. Our ability to get the interaction with the content being provided to me, hyper-personalized. Now,
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (53:07.053)
Right.
David Kramer (53:24.225)
The love of what we do will generate for us many of the things we interact with. But much like a calculator is an adopted tool today, and it wasn't, when I went through school, if I brought a calculator, I got kicked out of the class, unless it was the class, they said. Nowadays, if you don't bring a calculator day one, they're gonna tell you, come on, man, I got one at the office, but you're gonna borrow that, right? That's gonna be the future of many of the things we do, because the capability of the…
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (53:38.412)
Alright.
David Kramer (53:52.469)
devices we're interacting with are going to be, you know, hyper-automated to the point and personalized that we don't have to worry about this interaction with calculus. We're going to tell the machine, I need a formula to do the following. And it's going to go, got it. We're already seeing this. I'm working right now. We got 35 developers. We're putting them through training. We're not using chat's, we're using a different language model to get it done. But it is blowing their minds as to what they can get out of it. And then
they get to make the final decision on what they use, that's gonna be the education system that we're dealing with in the future, right?
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (54:28.71)
Okay, so Kramer, this is great points and I have not strong opinions, but opinions. I'm going to share them here. Okay. I do not disagree that if I were sitting in that advanced calculus class and if Kramer were the teacher and you're teaching 30 other people and there was no personalization and I felt overwhelmed, like I mentioned to you earlier. Now, if you took that and said, okay, Kramer is less human, more a machine, you're going to react to
David Kramer (54:36.265)
Yes. Yeah.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (54:56.31)
does Krish understand what Krish is learning or not? Or if I don't understand, I'm gonna hit pause. So Kramer pauses, and now I take a moment to explain what my challenges are, and you're gonna personalize that, and I'm gonna go away with certain element of learning. So it's very hard to disagree or deny any aspect of it from a learning standpoint. But I wanna take a parallel example just to see, ultimately we are humans who are learning this. Playing chess.
David Kramer (55:00.138)
Yes.
David Kramer (55:12.204)
Yes.
David Kramer (55:24.46)
Yes.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (55:25.27)
To me, I think of playing chess. You know, I like playing chess. I haven't played much of it lately, but I've always enjoyed playing chess. I've played with people, like back in college, as I grew up with humans, we sat, we had some, you know, we had the basic rules, but we're not playing fast chess. We would have a coffee, tea, conversation, and play chess. It took forever. Now, you can play chess with the machine. You can play it at midnight, at three o'clock in the morning.
David Kramer (55:37.077)
Yeah.
David Kramer (55:44.209)
Yes, that's correct. Yes.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (55:52.994)
four in the afternoon, you're not dependent on your friend who's not available. So there is a lot of convenience to playing chess because it's at your disposal. If I don't like one interface, you give an example of you can customize it and things can be changed. So I take an example of I don't like a certain interface, I change it, I go to a different place to play chess. Chess.com or chess1.com or chess100.com. So it's very, I pick the one that works for me, what I like, the colors, interface, and all of those things, the rules.
I can make it work, I can play chess. But can I take away the fact that playing chess with Kramer, who as real as these systems are, they're still not humans, right? They're not humans. So is there, I mean, my question is two parts basically, right? I don't deny the fact that the learning is going to be sublime, right? No question about that. At the learning, at just the learning level. My question is…
David Kramer (56:30.314)
Yeah.
David Kramer (56:33.953)
Yes.
Great, great question. Yep.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (56:52.218)
Are all of us going to adapt to that? Because just because systems change, just because technologies improve at dramatic paces, does it mean humans are going to have to sort of, you know, force themselves to do those learnings as opposed to giving you the time that you might independently need? Because what is, I know this is a long winded question, but to me, the most, you know, the highest form of personalization, Kramer, as I see it is, let me learn things the way
I understand. Do not make me learn things the way you think I should understand. So in this whole world of machine based hyper personalization, is there a fundamental aspect of human personalization that's going to just go missing for good or bad?
David Kramer (57:24.575)
Yes.
David Kramer (57:40.717)
I, there's two dimensions to what you're asking. One is how do I learn? And the other is what do I do with that learning to interact with people? I may want to share the learning with, and let me give you an example. Okay. If I want to learn chess, the best teacher is a digital system. It's flawless. The mistakes I make get taught quickly. I play a lot of chess. I love chess. I do not like to play chess with a, the computer is going to beat me. There's no question.
I do not like to play chess with it to be social. I like to play chess to learn. Now, once I played the chess to learn, my chess buddies that I go play chess with, we do chess just like you say, right? We've got a coffee. We probably have a Danish that I shouldn't be eating because I have type two diabetes, right? We're taking our time. We're talking about all the things that you talk about. We're talking about our grandkids. I will never.
stop that interaction. Never. But I will get to do more of that because I'm doing less of the other things that consume all of my time that are necessary for what I have to do in a market-based capitalistic world to generate revenue and income. As we start to slice away parts of our lives that don't have value, we're going to get more human interaction.
And we're going to go as humans to a level we've never gone to before. The perspective of what that looks like and where the human mind can truly go. That's advanced past the day to day mundane things that we deal with, right. Is unconceivable to mankind today. I don't even have an approach yet to deal with that. So we're going to interact to learn with those things that teach us most efficiently. Then we're going to take that learning and let's take.
Let's just take software development. And let's say that we learn from the teacher that's the best teacher how to develop software. Okay, I don't think we'll ever get rid of hackathons. The fun of a hackathon is demonstrable excellence at a personal level against a peer set that you respect. You don't go to a hackathon where you, well, some people may, but I would never go to a hackathon where I don't respect the people that are better. I want better than me.
David Kramer (01:00:03.985)
I want people where I'm truly in a competition with someone to do something. Right. And there's not going to be a chat GPT. It's just us coding against each other for pure fun. Now I may have learned a lot of stuff through my digital instructor, but I want to go have that hackathon. Why we're sitting there eating pizza together. We're there till 2am. We're talking about things. We're enjoying stuff as a team. We're making things happen that were amazing to us and others around us. Right.
And if you're in college, you're looking to spark up fun things with all these peers and maybe some glorification comes out of it that you would not otherwise get. We're never going to stop being humans interacting with humans, including our educational systems. Because we're in a training pod, doesn't mean we get out of the pod at the break and start to interact with people that are.
the most important part of the day as we go through our education system. So I think we're gonna get more human touch because the mundane things that get taken away, you know, out of our life, the things that consume a lot of our time that we don't enjoy, we get to now pick and choose those things. I don't like to fix my house, okay? I got a friend, his name is Daniel Escaloni. Daniel is a house fixer. The guy loves doing it. He'll spend hours.
So he's gonna spend time on his house, okay? He loves to barbecue, he's gonna spend time barbecuing. The things that I love to do, I love to walk. I like to take moments and think about the things that are around me and I like to debate with people about the finer points of evolution or non-evolution. All these things that I get to do as I interact with humans are gonna accelerate because I'm not stuck doing the things that I don't want. So I now get to hyper-personalize my life.
And today I have limited hype Just because of where I'm at, you know, we run a company, we've got several hundred employees, I have responsibilities to those employees, there's things I need to do, right? There's gonna be a hype of our lives that's gonna drastically change how we as humans get to live. The downsides will be politics as always. How do we deal politically with what that turns into, right? But…
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (01:02:25.172)
haha
David Kramer (01:02:27.273)
those choices that we get to make about hyper-personalizing our lives as we start to do the things we get to do is going to be the most exciting piece of what we're doing. You are 100% right. The digital aspect of this that we interact with is not going to replace the human pieces of chess, of tennis, of golf, of and we may say I want to be outdoors playing tennis.
Or we may say, I want to go, I'm in a flight. I've got 15 minutes. I don't have a tennis court, but me and my buddy can go into virtual tennis and have a good time doing it. He's in Chicago. I'm in Dubai. We're going to play some tennis together for the next 30 minutes. Right. We will have both of those in our lives and be able to adopt both of those and interact with them. How we.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (01:03:17.494)
You know, I think you said it brilliantly. So essentially, let me take one example as we come to the end of this podcast. Right. So, uh, the example I'm going to take is when you go to the grocery store, you know, there, there are people who park their cars in the closest, uh, you know, space available, right, right smack next to the entrance. Uh, and, you know, they do that and let's say you would go to the gym and you go do your workouts, whatever your, uh, daily workout sessions are.
I, on the other hand, I'm not a gym person. So I, when I did go to the grocery store, try not to go there and not something I do as much anymore. But when I go to the grocery store, as infrequently as it is, I try to park it as far as I can in that space. Like if I go to a Wegmans, I had to park it further out because it gives me the opportunity to catch that walk. Right? So the reason I take this example is,
It's the same thing. There's no right or wrong answer. Either you park smack next to it, and you get the walk or the run by going to a gym. Other people might park further away, because they probably don't go to the gym as much or don't enjoy going to the gym. But ultimately, the end result hopefully is similar or identical to a large extent, at least if you trivialize this. The reason I take that as an example, Kramer, is so.
in this world as we're progressing, as education is going to change. You mentioned some points where things are going to dramatically change. It sounds to me like we're going to even as learners, we're going to have to somehow find a balance, right? The system is going to continue to impose what is what the best way to do things are, you know, on a global scale. But sometimes the global scale may or may not work for you at an independent level. So I guess in a more.
things that are jotted down, but since we've got to the top of the art, I wanna say that I think it's fair to summarize based on everything you've shared today, that it is gonna change. You can't resist change. You have to accept it. How gradually or dramatically we accept change is left to each one of us. But all that you're saying today, all that you said today in terms of the training, the execution and the research, there is an element of automation that's coming lock, stock and barrel. Now,
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (01:05:34.498)
how fast you drink that Kool-Aid, how fast you accept it, or if you're in denial or not, is left to us as people as to how we react to these changes. But it's coming, right? There's no question about that. We're gonna have to make these adjustments. And I think we've touched upon a lot of these aspects when it comes to education. What would be your closing thoughts? AI.
Automation, Automated Economy and Education, which is where we focus today's podcast topic on. If you could just, what would be your closing thoughts, Kramer?
David Kramer (01:06:10.761)
Yeah, I'm going to summarize it probably in two key points. One, we still get to, you know, the seven habits starts out with this inside out construct, and then they have a really key point, which is of all the things that we own, it's how we make our choices, how we respond to things. We still own that at the end of the day. And they've got this guy that lived inside one of those camps during
the Jewish Holocaust, they killed his family. They took everything from him. And he still had one thing left. And that was how he chose to respond to the environment around him, right? And in that, he learned that if I respond positively from the inside out, my influence and the way I start to influence things around me becomes bigger than the concerns that I would have had that damages that influence on people that are around me.
Right. And this construct hit me very much as I thought about robotics, the future, the world that's coming, right. Cause we get to make choices. And the two things that I want us to think about, right. One, as we look at the choices we make. Our biggest
Capability, that is us and nothing else, is the world we live in. Being a part of that world we live in, removing the contamination, walking through a field, smelling that field, the flowers, eating something. These are all human things that we will do that digital will never do. It can simulate it, but it'll never understand what it feels like to lay down on a stunned patch in the middle.
of a green field and look up at a blue sky with those clouds shifting ahead. It'll never understand that. Right. And therefore as human beings, the number one thing we have to do is make choices about the abundance that we want to shift from the things we're doing daily to the world that we're going to get to live in and adopt and start to become a real big part of if we accept the abundance of what the digital sapiens can do. So choices.
David Kramer (01:08:27.785)
around how we interact with the digital world and how we adopt it and make it take over the things we don't want as quick as possible. Those choices are important at a personal level, at a community, city and state level, at a government level. And our ability to start talking through that at those levels is gonna be super important to help those be thought of in a different way. Okay, the number two thing I think we should live with or leave as we end this conversation. Number two.
The automated economy is here. It is happening around us and it's happening because we want it to happen. It's not just happening because, oh, I'm forcing it on you, but we want it to happen. We want this instant gratification of things that we want to have the way we want to have them at the value we want to have them. Okay. And so as we think about this construct of digital enablement and how someone can share us through those key things to get done first.
inside the organizations that we own, that we can help thrive, and how we let that take our employees and become meaningfully different with their human lives. How do we hyper automate, hyper personalize, and take away the junk that we deal with every day, right? And get it out of the system for them, right? That's a choice we get to make inside our environments as entrepreneurs, inside our homes, as parents, inside our communities, as community leaders.
inside our state and local governments, right? We make choices and we get to take and adopt those things that are gonna be crucial for us and determine what's gonna be practical and pragmatic to do and how to do it, right? Those two things we get to start today and work on in our lives and get outcomes that we seek that give value to the space that we live in, the planet we are on.
the oceans that we want to swim in, the beautiful lakes that are out there, the amazing forestry that we get to walk through. All of these things should become the higher priority to us as we start to not have to do the other things that consume all of our time.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (01:10:42.862)
I'm not gonna say anymore because this is a brilliant summary. So with that folks, thanks a lot Kramer. Kramer is the founder and chief product officer of Cooperative Computing. Really appreciate you taking time Kramer and sharing these wonderful thoughts. I'm gonna, as I go back and listen to it, I'm gonna have more questions to come back to you with, but thank you very much.
David Kramer (01:11:07.573)
Thank you so much. I think education is such an exciting topic and it changes the minds of, you know, our children all the way up to who we are as we go out into the world. So thank you for making this a topic. A lot of people would have ignored it and never brought it up. So thank you so much for making it a meaningful part of our conversation.
Krish (saas.snowpal.com) (01:11:26.647)
Thank you.

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