English: I don't think that there is any doubt that a lack of grants is a huge problem for small congregations, not just financially - of course, there are problems in terms of finance - but also psychologically. There is the sense of, 'No-one is willing to help us; we're alone in this situation with this large responsibility that weighs heavily upon us' and then it's easier to give up, whereas a small financial grant would be enough just to convey the idea, 'Society, speaking more broadly, does support you in your desire to keep this building open' - and perhaps to adapt it for better use, as Alex mentioned. If I may also say, the Act at present - we did seek to introduce an amendment on this, but it fell; it was a balanced vote and the amendment fell - insists that the only criterion for giving permission to a listed building is to preserve the historical value of the building. The considerations that Alex just mentioned are not considerations within the law when a decision is made. That is the legal problem for us as churches. Of course, we have other considerations, which is the desire to use these buildings to worship God and to serve the community. It may be that that means changing some of the historical aspects - just some of the historical aspects - of these buildings to make that possible in an age when people want to be comfortable and warm and so forth. When these buildings were built, those expectations were not in place. As I said, we sought to have such an amendment to the Act, but it did not pass, so the subordinate legislation in terms of the exemption will still fall within those boundaries of the Act. That is our problem as denominations. We do understand that all decisions have to be taken legally, of course, but occasionally there are excellent projects that are lost because a historical feature could be lost. Then, as Alex said, what happens is that the building is sold and someone will buy it and will adapt it far beyond anything that we would have wished to do in the first place, making all kinds of other adaptations. It is very frustrating for a congregation to see that we weren't able to do something such as change the roof, for example, or we couldn't put in any toilets, but they can turn this into a house, which means restructuring the building in its entirety. There is a sense of unfairness amongst communities with regard to that.
Welsh: Nid ydw i'n credu bod amheuaeth fod diffyg grantiau yn broblem enfawr i gynulleidfaoedd bychain, nid yn unig yn ariannol - wrth gwrs, mae problemau ariannol - ond hefyd yn seicolegol. Mae'r teimlad yma, 'Does neb yn fodlon ein helpu ni; rŷm ni ar ein pen ein hunain fan hyn gyda chyfrifoldeb mawr sy'n pwyso'n drwm arnom ni' ac mae'n rhwyddach wedyn i roi'r ffidil yn y to, tra byddai grant sy'n fach yn ariannol yn ddigon i gyfleu'r syniad, 'Mae'r gymdeithas ehangach yn eich cefnogi chi yn eich awydd i gadw'r adeilad yma' ac, fel y mae Alex yn ei ddweud, efallai ei addasu fe at well defnydd. Os caf i ddweud hefyd, mae'r Ddeddf ar hyn o bryd - fe geisiom ni gyflwyno gwelliant ar hyn, ond fe fethodd; roedd hi'n bleidlais gyfartal ac fe gollwyd y gwelliant - yn mynnu mai'r unig griterion ar gyfer rhoi caniatâd i adeilad rhestredig yw cadw gwerth hanesyddol yr adeilad. Nid yw'r ystyriaethau y mae Alex newydd fod yn sôn amdanyn nhw yn ystyriaethau o fewn y gyfraith wrth wneud penderfyniad. Dyna yw'r broblem gyfreithiol i ni fel eglwysi. Wrth gwrs, mae gyda ni ystyriaeth arall, sef yr awydd i ddefnyddio'r adeilad yna er addoli Duw ac er gwasanaethu'r gymuned. Efallai y byddai hynny'n golygu newid rhai o'r pethau hanesyddol - rhai o'r pethau hansyddol - o fewn yr adeilad i wneud hynny'n bosibl mewn oes pan fo pobl eisiau bod yn gyfforddus ac yn dwym ac yn y blaen. Codwyd yr adeiladau yma pan nad oedd y disgwyliadau yna yno. Fel rydw i'n ei ddweud, fe geisiom ni gael gwelliant o'r fath i'r Ddeddf ei hunan. Nid yw yno, ac felly bydd yr is-ddeddfwriaeth esemptiad o hyd, wrth gwrs, o fewn y ffiniau yna yn y Ddeddf. Dyna yw'n problem ni fel enwadau. Rŷm ni'n deall bod pob penderfyniad yn gorfod cael ei wneud yn gyfreithlon, wrth gwrs, ond jest weithiau mae yna brosiectau gwych yn cael eu colli oherwydd y gellid colli rhywbeth hanesyddol. Fel y mae Alex yn ei ddweud, beth sy'n digwydd wedyn yw mae'r adeilad yn cael ei werthu ac, wrth gwrs, mae rhywun yn ei brynu fe ac yn ei addasu fe llawer tu hwnt i beth roeddem ni wedi dymuno gwneud yn y lle cyntaf, gan wneud pob math o addasiadau eraill. Mae'n rhwystredig iawn i gynulleidfa weld nad oeddem ni'n cael newid y math o do, er enghraifft, neu ddim yn cael rhoi tŷ bach i mewn, ond mae'r rhain yn gallu troi'r peth yn dŷ, sy'n golygu newid holl strwythur yr adeilad. Mae yna deimlad o annhegwch weithiau ymysg cymunedau ynglŷn â hynny.