English: I think there's a bit of confusion here between the two of us. I was talking in financial terms. I'll ask this question: if the Welsh Government withdrew funding tomorrow, would the museums continue, or would they be forced to close their doors? If they are wholly dependent, or substantially dependent, on the Welsh Government in operational terms, the OCS I'm sure classify them as Welsh Government-controlled bodies. One of the things I've argued against during the whole of my time at the Assembly is exploitative contracts: zero-hours contracts, flexible low-hour contracts, annualised hours, agency staff - there's no shortage of ways to badly treat people. I also believe that everyone should be paid the real living wage. The museum staff deserve not to be subject to these employment practices. I am pleased that Mr Thurley acknowledges the high quality of all the museum sites and the impact many of them have for their local communities, both in terms of a museum presence in the locality and providing a source of regular employment in often marginal areas. Free entry to museums has been a long-standing policy of the Labour Party in Wales. Do not exclude people on price from viewing their history. On charging, I have no difficulty in charging for specific exhibitions, with caveats that anything relating to Wales must be free. I do not believe the people of Wales should have to pay to view their own history. Also, it should not be a back-door method of charging for museum entry. I believe the report is correct in its final section addressing the need for financial stability for the museum and clarity on its funding position over the next few years. In addition to the areas outlined, I would also add that the museum is still in the process of negotiating the 2017-19 pay offer with the trade unions. Any funding settlement needs to take account of the costs associated with this and ensure a period of stability for the organisation going forward. The museum is at a pivotal moment where it can move forward with a well-funded model that seeks to engage with its staff and their recognised trade unions, and deliver a world-class service provided by professional and well-motivated people, able to deliver for the communities and the people of Wales. Over the last year, the Historic Wales steering group has developed ideas and programmes that it hopes will build and develop such a model, which involves the recognised trade unions in the process. I believe any recommendations should be considered by this group and the report should not derail the development of this work. I think it's important, and I sincerely hope, for the sake of the future of the staff and the cultural sector within Wales, that both the Welsh Government and museum management look to that option as a way to take it forward. If I can return to what I was talking about earlier on the financial side of it, you might have whatever rules you've got and whatever charters you've got, but where is the money coming from? There are lots of organisations throughout Wales - they want money from the public sector, but they want to run their organisations as if they're part of the private sector. That is one of the things - [ Interruption.] Please, yes.
Welsh: Credaf fod peth dryswch yma rhwng y ddau ohonom. Roeddwn i'n siarad mewn termau ariannol. Gofynnaf y cwestiwn hwn: petai Llywodraeth Cymru yn terfynu'r cyllid yfory, a fyddai'r amgueddfeydd yn parhau, neu a fydden nhw'n cael eu gorfodi i gau eu drysau? Os ydyn nhw'n dibynnu'n llwyr, neu'n dibynnu'n sylweddol, ar Lywodraeth Cymru yn weithredol, mae'r OCS rwy'n siŵr yn eu dosbarthu'n gyrff o dan reolaeth Llywodraeth Cymru. Un o'r pethau yr wyf wedi dadlau yn eu herbyn drwy gydol fy amser yn y Cynulliad yw contractau camfanteisiol: contractau dim oriau, contractau hyblyg oriau bychain, oriau blynyddol, staff asiantaeth - nid oes diwedd ar ffyrdd o drin pobl yn wael. Rwy'n credu hefyd y dylid talu'r cyflog byw i bawb. Mae staff yr amgueddfa yn haeddu peidio â bod ar drugaredd yr arferion cyflogaeth hyn. Rwy'n falch bod Mr Thurley yn cydnabod ansawdd uchel safleoedd yr amgueddfa ac effaith llawer ohonyn nhw ar eu cymunedau, o ran presenoldeb amgueddfa yn yr ardal a darparu ffynhonnell reolaidd o waith mewn ardaloedd lle mae gwaith yn aml yn brin. Mae mynediad am ddim i amgueddfeydd wedi bod yn bolisi hirhoedlog gan y Blaid Lafur yng Nghymru. Peidiwch ag eithrio pobl rhag dysgu am eu hanes oherwydd pris. O ran codi tâl, nid wyf yn gwrthwynebu codi tâl am arddangosfeydd penodol, gydag amodau bod yn rhaid i unrhyw beth sy'n ymwneud â Chymru fod yn rhad ac am ddim. Nid wyf yn credu y dylai pobl Cymru orfod talu i weld eu hanes eu hunain. Hefyd, ni ddylai fod yn ffordd lechwraidd o godi tâl am fynd i mewn i'r amgueddfa. Credaf fod yr adroddiad yn gywir yn yr adran olaf sy'n rhoi sylw i'r angen am sefydlogrwydd ariannol i'r amgueddfa ac eglurder ynglŷn â'i sefyllfa ariannu dros yr ychydig flynyddoedd nesaf. Yn ychwanegol at y meysydd a amlinellwyd, rwyf hefyd yn ychwanegu bod yr amgueddfa yn dal wrthi'n trafod cynnig tâl 2017-19 gyda'r undebau llafur. Mae angen i unrhyw setliad ariannol ystyried y costau sy'n gysylltiedig â hyn a sicrhau cyfnod o sefydlogrwydd i'r sefydliad yn y dyfodol. Mae'r amgueddfa mewn adeg dyngedfennol lle gall symud ymlaen gyda model wedi'i ariannu'n dda sy'n ceisio trafod â'i staff a'u hundebau llafur cydnabyddedig, a darparu gwasanaeth o'r radd flaenaf gan bobl broffesiynol a brwdfrydig, sy'n gallu cyflawni ar gyfer cymunedau a phobl Cymru. Dros y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, mae grŵp llywio Cymru Hanesyddol wedi datblygu syniadau a rhaglenni y mae'n gobeithio y byddant yn adeiladu ac yn datblygu model o'r fath, sy'n cynnwys yr undebau llafur cydnabyddedig yn y broses. Credaf y dylid ystyried unrhyw argymhellion gan y grŵp hwn ac na ddylai'r adroddiad fod yn faen tramgwydd i'r gwaith. Credaf ei bod yn bwysig, ac rwy'n mawr obeithio, er lles dyfodol y staff a'r sector diwylliannol yng Nghymru, fod Llywodraeth Cymru a rheolwyr yr amgueddfa yn ystyried y dewis hwnnw fel ffordd o'i ddatblygu. Os caf i ddychwelyd at yr hyn yr oeddwn i'n sôn yn gynharach amdano ynglŷn â'r agwedd ariannol, hwyrach fod gennych chi pa reolau bynnag sydd gennych chi, a pha siarteri bynnag sydd gennych chi, ond o ble mae'r arian yn dod? Mae yna lawer o sefydliadau ledled Cymru - maen nhw eisiau arian gan y sector cyhoeddus, ond maen nhw eisiau rhedeg eu sefydliadau fel petaen nhw'n rhan o'r sector preifat. Dyna un o'r pethau - [ Torri ar draws.] Os gwelwch yn dda, ie.