English: I'd like to ask why the Government in Wales isn't doing anything about that position. The Silk commission said there'd be close co-ordination between the two Governments on the future of the Severn crossings; the St David's Day agreement said the UK Government would work with the Welsh Government to determine the long-term future of the Severn crossings; and the Department for Transport 's own road investment strategy rightly recognises that the UK Government only has the right to recoup its own cost from the construction, maintenance and management of the bridges, and only until 2027. It went on to say that, therefore, the DfT would work with the Welsh Assembly to examine the future of the crossings in detail. We passed unanimously my motion on 16 November that the toll should be abolished following the return to public ownership. The Cabinet Secretary wrote to me on 12 December, and the First Minister copied and pasted a section of that into his letter to the Deputy Presiding Officer on 9 January, saying a trunk road charging scheme under section 167 of the Transport Act 2000 in relation to the Severn bridges themselves could therefore be made by the Secretary of State in his capacity as the traffic authority for the bridges, notwithstanding that they are not wholly in England. Does the Cabinet Secretary now recognise that that's not the UK's legal position, and that they are seeking only to charge for the half of the Severn bridge that is in England? And will he consider that what he wrote to me about the transfer Order of 1999 has actually been superseded by section 122 of the Local Transport Act 2008, which is inserted into the Government Wales Act under Schedule 5 on the devolved matters, matter 10.1: 'the making, operation and enforcement of schemes for imposing charges in respect of the useofWelsh trunk roads'? Whoever is the highways authority, is it not the case that half of that Severn bridge and the tolling plaza are in Wales, and that provision gives the power to his Government and this Assembly to make those decisions, not to the UK Government? Is that not why they're only charging for half the road? And how does he suppose they can use the tolling plaza in Wales when primary legislation specifies that the operation and enforcement of such schemes using tolls in Wales - and that is in Wales - are matters for the Welsh Government? Will you also consider that the Severn Bridges Act 1992 is very, very clear, in primary legislation, that the UK Secretary of State may only charge a toll until a certain sum has been raised, which UK Ministers state to be approximately £80 million, and with the reduced toll would be raised by the end of 2019? After that, the continuation of tolling is unlawful on that primary legislation. Does he really think the UK Government should be allowed to get away with using secondary legislation - an Order - to continue tolling when that tolling is prohibited by primary legislation under the Severn Bridges Act? Given what we have done in this Assembly, does he understand that renaming a toll - charging a toll and calling it a charging order - is not going to convince the courts - the effect is the same; it is to make people pay to cross the bridge - and that what the UK Government is proposing is, in my view, unlawful? Certainly there is a strong arguable case that it is unlawful. Therefore, may I ask him that in order to give some effect to what he states his Government's position is, and the unanimous decision of this Assembly on the 16 November, will he meet with me and his lawyers to explore these issues in more detail? If he accepts that there is at least uncertainty as to the position, will he instruct a Queen's Counsel to give definitive external advice to the Welsh Government on this matter? If that advice is that there is at least an arguable case that the UK Government is acting unlawfully, will he take that forward, challenge the UK Government, if it doesn't rescind, to ensure that our rights here in Wales and the law are respected?
Welsh: Hoffwn ofyn pam nad yw'r Llywodraeth yng Nghymru yn gwneud unrhyw beth am y sefyllfa honno. Dywedodd y comisiwn Silk y byddai'r ddwy Lywodraeth yn cydgysylltu'n agos ar ddyfodol croesfannau Hafren; dywedodd cytundeb Dydd Gŵyl Dewi y byddai Llywodraeth y DU yn gweithio gyda Llywodraeth Cymru i benderfynu ar ddyfodol hirdymor croesfannau Hafren; ac mae strategaeth fuddsoddi mewn ffyrdd yr Adran Drafnidiaeth ei hun yn cydnabod yn gywir nad oes gan Lywodraeth y DU ond yr hawl i adennill ei chost ei hun o ran y gwaith adeiladu, cynnal a chadw a rheoli'r croesfannau, a hynny dim ond tan 2027. Aeth ymlaen i ddweud, felly, y byddai'r Adran Drafnidiaeth yn gweithio gyda Chynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru i archwilio'n fanwl ddyfodol y croesfannau. Ar 16 Tachwedd, pasiwyd yn unfrydol fy nghynnig i ddiddymu'r doll ar ôl i'r croesfannau ddychwelyd i berchnogaeth y cyhoedd. Ysgrifennodd Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet ataf i ar 12 Rhagfyr, a gwnaeth y Prif Weinidog gynnwys darn o'r llythyr hwnnw yn ei lythyr at y Dirprwy Lywydd ar 9 Ionawr, gan ddweud y gallai'r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol yn rhinwedd ei swydd fel yr awdurdod traffig ar gyfer y croesfannau, weithredu cynllun codi tâl ar gefnffyrdd o dan adran 167 o Ddeddf Trafnidiaeth 2000 mewn cysylltiad â chroesfannau Afon Hafren eu hunain, er gwaethaf y ffaith nad ydynt yn gyfan gwbl yn Lloegr. A yw Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet bellach yn cydnabod nad dyna yw sefyllfa gyfreithiol y DU, a'i bod ond yn ceisio codi tâl ar gyfer yr hanner o'r groesfan Hafren sydd yn Lloegr? Ac a wnaiff ef ystyried bod yr hyn a ysgrifennodd ataf i ynglŷn â Gorchymyn trosglwyddo 1999 wedi'i ddisodli mewn gwirionedd gan adran 122 o Ddeddf Trafnidiaeth Leol 2008, sydd wedi'i mewnosod yn Neddf Llywodraeth Cymru o dan Atodlen 5 ar y materion datganoledig, mater 10.1: creu, gweithredu a gorfodi cynlluniau i osod taliadau yn ymwneud â'r defnydd o gefnffyrdd yng Nghymru? Pwy bynnag yw'r awdurdod priffyrdd, onid yw'n wir bod hanner y groesfan Hafren honno a'r man casglu tollau yng Nghymru, a bod y ddarpariaeth honno'n rhoi'r pŵer i'w Lywodraeth ef a'r Cynulliad hwn wneud y penderfyniadau hynny, nid Llywodraeth y DU? Onid dyna pam nad ydynt ond yn codi tâl am hanner y ffordd? A sut y mae ef yn tybio y gallant ddefnyddio'r man casglu tollau yng Nghymru pan fo deddfwriaeth sylfaenol yn pennu bod gweithredu a gorfodi cynlluniau o'r fath gan ddefnyddio tollau yng Nghymru - ac mae hynny yng Nghymru - yn faterion i Lywodraeth Cymru? A wnewch chi hefyd ystyried bod Deddf Pontydd Hafren 1992 yn glir iawn, iawn, mewn deddfwriaeth sylfaenol, na all Ysgrifennydd Gwladol y DU godi toll hyd nes y codir swm penodol o arian, sef tua £80 miliwn yn ôl Gweinidogion y DU, a chyda'r doll ostyngedig, y byddai wedi'i godi erbyn diwedd 2019? Ar ôl hynny, bydd parhau i godi tollau yn anghyfreithlon yn ôl y ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol honno. A ydyw wir yn credu y dylai Llywodraeth y DU gael rhwydd hynt i ddefnyddio is-ddeddfwriaeth - Gorchymyn - i barhau i godi tollau pan fo'r doll honno wedi'i gwahardd gan ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol dan Ddeddf y Pontydd Hafren? O ystyried yr hyn yr ydym ni wedi'i wneud yn y Cynulliad hwn, onid yw'n deall nad yw ailenwi toll - codi toll a'i galw'n orchymyn codi tâl - yn mynd i argyhoeddi'r llysoedd - yr un yw'r effaith; ei bwriad yw gwneud i bobl dalu i groesi'r bont - a bod yr hyn y mae Llywodraeth y DU yn ei gynnig, yn fy marn i, yn anghyfreithlon? Yn sicr ceir achos cryf i'w ddadlau ei fod yn anghyfreithlon. Felly, a gaf i ofyn iddo, er mwyn rhoi rhywfaint o effaith i'r hyn y dywed yw safbwynt ei Lywodraeth ef, a phenderfyniad unfrydol y Cynulliad hwn ar 16 Tachwedd, a wnaiff ef gyfarfod â mi a'i gyfreithwyr i archwilio'r materion hyn yn fanylach? Os yw'n derbyn bod o leiaf ansicrwydd ynghylch y sefyllfa, a wnaiff ef gyfarwyddo Cwnsler y Frenhines i roi cyngor allanol pendant i Lywodraeth Cymru ar y mater hwn? Os bydd y cyngor hwnnw'n nodi bod o leiaf achos i'w ddadlau bod Llywodraeth y DU yn gweithredu'n anghyfreithlon, a wnaiff ef fwrw ymlaen â hynny, herio Llywodraeth y DU, os nad yw'n dileu ei gweithred, i sicrhau y caiff ein hawliau ni yma yng Nghymru a'r gyfraith eu parchu?