English: Bit of an anticlimax there, Presiding Officer. Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. It's a real pleasure to take part in this debate. [ Interruption. ] I will not take the conversation any further. It's a real pleasure to take part in this debate, and I have to say, as the lead spokesperson for Plaid Cymru said, that debate after debate on this subject has been held in the 11 years that I have been an Assembly Member, and I'm sure people who were here before me remember previous debates. And, even before this institution was established, people were talking about the new M4 relief road or a road around Newport, obviously to solve the congestion problems. And, actually, this debate isn't about getting into the intricacies of the engineering, the environmental impact, et cetera, et cetera, it is about a simple proposition, a proposition that we on this side of the house do agree with, that this institution should have a vote - a stand-alone vote - as to whether the Government should or should not proceed on what is quite clearly its largest infrastructure project that it has considered and, no doubt, will press a button on to either say 'yea' or 'nay' after the public inquiry. Surely, as Assembly Members whose constituencies and regions will all be affected by that decision, we should have a role to play in that decision-making process. If the Government is confident of its position and it, by virtue of being the Government, should have a majority in here, it should be able to carry the house and carry the vote to give the permission for this project to go ahead. So, it's not really a mind-numbing question that we need to spend hours and hours debating; it's a simple proposition for a democratically-elected house to play an active role in sanctioning what, as I said, is the biggest infrastructure project this Government, or any predecessor Governments, have had to consider. From our side of the house, what we have real concerns over is the costs, and the escalating costs, of the project, and we very much want to be able to have a say on that. We have made it quite clear that we will not give any blank cheques when it comes to this project, and only now, over the last couple of weeks, in evidence to the economy and transportation committee, we've heard from the Government that the costs range somewhere between £1.4 billion and £1.5 billion at the moment. I'm failing to find many infrastructure projects that start at a figure and don't just end up going up from the figure that you started with. I'd be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary could give us an indication of such fixed contracts that have delivered such mega-schemes within the budgets that they've been charged with delivering. [ Interruption. ] And I'd also - . Public projects. And I would also invite the Cabinet Secretary to give us some explanation as to why there's the substantial rise in these costs to give us some confidence that the Government's proposals might be still on track. Obviously, only two years ago the First Minister talked of a figure coming well under £1 billion. And now, some two years later, to be standing here and, by the Government's own estimations, and the figures that you've lodged with the public inquiry, to be on a figure of £1.4 billion does deserve an explanation, I believe, rather than just pointing to inflation, because -
Welsh: Ychydig o wrthgleimacs yn y fan honno, Lywydd. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Lywydd. Mae'n bleser mawr gennyf gymryd rhan yn y ddadl. [ Torri ar draws. ] Nid wyf am fynd â'r sgwrs gam ymhellach. Mae'n bleser mawr gennyf gymryd rhan yn y ddadl hon, a rhaid i mi ddweud, fel y dywedodd llefarydd arweiniol Plaid Cymru, mae dadl ar ôl dadl wedi'i chynnal ar y pwnc hwn yn yr 11 mlynedd y bûm yn Aelod Cynulliad, ac rwy'n siŵr fod pobl a oedd yma o fy mlaen yn cofio'r dadleuon cyn hynny. A hyd yn oed cyn sefydlu'r sefydliad hwn, roedd pobl yn sôn am ffordd liniaru'r M4 newydd neu ffordd o amgylch Casnewydd, i ddatrys y problemau tagfeydd wrth gwrs. Ac mewn gwirionedd, nid oes a wnelo'r ddadl hon â manylu ar gymhlethdodau'r beirianneg, yr effaith amgylcheddol ac yn y blaen, mae a wnelo â chynnig syml, cynnig rydym ni ar yr ochr hon i'r tŷ yn cytuno ag ef, sef y dylai'r sefydliad hwn gael pleidlais - pleidlais annibynnol - ynglŷn ag a ddylai'r Llywodraeth fwrw ymlaen â'r prosiect seilwaith mwyaf y mae wedi'i ystyried ai peidio, ac yn ddi-os, bydd yn gwasgu botwm i ddweud 'ie' neu 'na' wedi'r ymchwiliad cyhoeddus. Gan y bydd y penderfyniad hwnnw'n effeithio ar etholaethau a rhanbarthau Aelodau Cynulliad, 'does bosibl na ddylai fod gennym ran i'w chwarae yn y broses benderfynu honno. Os yw'r Llywodraeth yn hyderus ynglŷn â'i safbwynt, a bod ganddi fwyafrif yma yn rhinwedd y ffaith ei bod yn Llywodraeth, dylai allu ennill y bleidlais i roi caniatâd i'r prosiect fynd rhagddo. Felly, nid yw'n gwestiwn syfrdanol o anodd y mae angen inni dreulio oriau ac oriau yn ei drafod; mae'n gynnig syml i dŷ a etholwyd yn ddemocrataidd chwarae rhan weithredol yn cadarnhau, fel y dywedais, y prosiect seilwaith mwyaf y bu'n rhaid i'r Llywodraeth hon, neu unrhyw Lywodraethau blaenorol, ei ystyried. Ar ein hochr ni o'r tŷ, yr hyn y mae gennym bryderon gwirioneddol yn ei gylch yw'r costau, a chostau cynyddol, y prosiect, ac rydym yn awyddus iawn i allu dweud ein barn ar hynny. Rydym wedi dweud yn gwbl glir na fyddwn yn rhoi unrhyw sieciau gwag ar gyfer y prosiect hwn, ac yn awr, dros yr wythnos neu ddwy ddiwethaf yn unig, mewn tystiolaeth i'r pwyllgor economi a thrafnidiaeth, clywsom gan y Llywodraeth fod y costau'n amrywio rywle rhwng £1.4 biliwn a £1.5 biliwn ar hyn o bryd. Ni allaf ddod o hyd i lawer o brosiectau seilwaith sy'n dechrau ar ffigur ac nad ydynt yn codi o'r ffigur y dechreuoch ag ef. Buaswn yn ddiolchgar pe gallai Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet roi syniad inni pa gontractau tymor penodol sydd wedi cyflawni mega-gynlluniau o'r fath o fewn y cyllidebau y gofynnwyd iddynt eu darparu. [ Torri ar draws. ] A hoffwn hefyd - . Prosiectau cyhoeddus. A hoffwn wahodd yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet hefyd i roi eglurhad i ni pam y gwelwyd y cynnydd sylweddol yn y costau hyn er mwyn rhoi rhywfaint o hyder inni y gallai cynigion y Llywodraeth barhau i fod ar y trywydd iawn. Yn amlwg, ddwy flynedd yn ôl yn unig, soniai'r Prif Weinidog am ffigur ymhell o dan £1 biliwn. Ac yn awr, ddwy flynedd yn ddiweddarach, mae sefyll yma, ac yn ôl amcangyfrifon y Llywodraeth ei hun, a'r ffigurau rydych wedi'u cyflwyno i'r ymchwiliad cyhoeddus, mae bod ar ffigur o £1.4 biliwn, rwy'n credu, yn haeddu esboniad, yn hytrach na chyfeirio at chwyddiant yn unig, oherwydd -