techiaith/cofnodycynulliad_en-cy huggingface dataset:
English: So, we'll move on to item 3, and we will be starting an item where we will receive evidence as part of the inquiry into supporting and promoting the Welsh language - the inquiry into the legislative, policy and wider context. Now, you'll remember that this is the third evidence session on this particular subject, and we will await our guests before we move on to hold this evidence session.
Welsh: Felly, symudwn i eitem 3, ac mi fyddwn ni nawr yn cychwyn ar yr eitem sydd yn clywed tystiolaeth fel rhan o'r ymchwiliad cefnogi a hybu'r Gymraeg - yr ymchwiliad i'r cyd-destun deddfwriaethol a pholisi. Mi fyddwch chi'n cofio mai dyma ydy'r trydydd sesiwn dystiolaeth ar y pwnc yma, ac fe wnawn ni ddisgwyl i'r gwesteion ddod i mewn cyn inni symud ymlaen i gynnal y sesiwn.
English: There we are. Thank you.
Welsh: Dyna ni. Diolch yn fawr.
English: A very warm welcome to all three of you this morning. Welcome to Dr Elin Royles, department director of Welsh, Aberystwyth University -
Welsh: Croeso cynnes atom ni, y tri ohonoch chi: i Dr Elin Royles, cyfarwyddwr adran y Gymraeg Prifysgol Aberystwyth -
English: May I note that my title is incorrect? I have let you know ahead of time, but it hasn't been changed. So, I'm not department director of Welsh at Aberystwyth University. Thank you.
Welsh: A gaf i nodi bod fy nheitl i'n anghywir? Rydw i wedi rhoi gwybod i chi o flaen llaw, ond nid yw wedi cael ei newid. Felly, nid wyf i'n bennaeth ar adran y Gymraeg ym Mhrifysgol Aberystwyth. Diolch.
English: Thank you for letting us know. Also joining us is Dr Huw Lewis, lecturer in international politics, Aberystwyth University - that's correct, I hope. And also Emyr Lewis, partner and regional senior partner in Wales for Blake Morgan, but more importantly, perhaps, present today in the role of having done a great deal of work on legislation in Wales with regard to the Welsh language. So, a very warm welcome to you three. As you'll know, the purpose of this session is to consider the legislative and policy context with regard to the Welsh language, but specifically, perhaps, to be scrutinising the implementation of the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011. We'll start with a few questions with regard to that Measure. Other members of the committee will be contributing as well, but just to start, therefore: what are your initial views on how the Measure has been developed and how the Measure is an improvement on the 1993 Act? Are there any aspects where it hasn't developed and improved the situation of the Welsh language? I don't know who wants to start - Emyr?
Welsh: Iawn. Diolch am hynny. Dr Huw Lewis, darlithydd gwleidyddiaeth ryngwladol, Prifysgol Aberystwyth - mae hynny'n gywir, gobeithio. Ac Emyr Lewis, partner ac uwch-bartner rhanbarthol Cymru yn Blake Morgan, ond yn bwysicach, efallai, heddiw yn y rôl o fod wedi gwneud cryn waith ar ddeddfwriaeth Cymru yn ymwneud â'r Gymraeg. Felly, croeso cynnes i chi'ch tri. Fel rydych chi'n gwybod, diben y sesiwn yma ydy edrych ar y cyd-destun deddfwriaethol a pholisi o gwmpas yr iaith Gymraeg, ond yn benodol, efallai, i fod yn craffu ar weithrediad Mesur y Gymraeg (Cymru) 2011. Mi wnawn ni gychwyn gydag ychydig o gwestiynau ynghylch hynny. Mi fydd aelodau eraill y pwyllgor yn cyfrannu hefyd, ond jest i ddechrau, felly: eich sylwadau cychwynnol chi, os gwelwch yn dda, ynghylch sut mae'r Mesur wedi cael ei ddatblygu a sut mae'r Mesur yn welliant ar Ddeddf 1993, ac efallai agweddau lle nad ydy o ddim wedi datblygu a gwella sefyllfa'r Gymraeg. Nid ydw i'n gwybod pwy sydd am ddechrau - Emyr?
English: Do you two see the importance of this further than that? What about the psychological importance of the effects of the introduction of this new legislation?
Welsh: A ydych chi'ch dau yn gweld pwysigrwydd ymhellach na hynny? Beth am bwysigrwydd seicolegol yr hyn a ddigwyddodd yn sgil cyflwyno'r ddeddfwriaeth newydd?
English: If I could just add a few points to that, there has been an effort to have consistency across language schemes under the 1993 legislation but, on a practical level, political influences and individuals have played more of a role in that period of the implementation of the Act. And what the Measure has enabled us to do is to have greater consistency across institutions in terms of the arrangements in place. Some would perhaps suggest that there are gaps remaining in that the standards don't extend to the private sector. You've already had people at this committee talking about the utilities, and so on and so forth, and that can be frustrating, particularly when you see retrograde steps in sectors such as that. Another issue is, yes, the Welsh language was made an official language, but to what extent has the standards process actually created rights? In our sector, in higher education, there's quite a strong campaign at the moment to recognise specific rights that students have, and I think that provides them with a great deal of clarity, as students who wish to study through the medium of Welsh, as to what they can expect from us as an institution. I do accept that there are challenges around providing basic fundamental rights to Welsh speakers, and I'm sure there are people here with greater expertise to go into detail on that, but I do think that perhaps there is a gap and that that kind of agenda could perhaps have gone further.
Welsh: Efallai i ychwanegu rhai pwyntiau at hynny, mae yna ymdrech wedi bod i greu cysondeb ar draws cynlluniau iaith o dan drefniadau 1993, ond, yn ymarferol, mae dylanwadau gwleidyddol ac unigolion wedi chwarae mwy o rôl yn ystod y cyfnod yna o weithredu'r Ddeddf. Felly, beth mae'r Mesur wedi ein galluogi ni i'w wneud ydy cael mwy o gysondeb ar draws sefydliadau yn y math o drefniadau sydd yna mewn lle. Efallai byddai llawer yn cwestiynu bod yna fylchau yn parhau o ran nad ydy'r safonau yn cwmpasu'r sector preifat. Rydych chi eisoes yn y pwyllgor yma wedi cael pobl yn siarad am y cyfleustodau, ac yn y blaen, fel sector penodol, ac mae hynny yn rhwystredig, yn enwedig pan ydych chi'n gweld camau yn ôl mewn sector fel yna. Efallai'r cwestiwn arall ydy'r mater, do, fe wnaethpwyd y Gymraeg yn iaith swyddogol, ond i ba raddau mae'r broses o safonau wedi creu hawliau. Rydw i'n meddwl yn ein sector ni, yn y maes addysg uwch, mae yna ymgyrch eithaf cryf ar hyn o bryd i gydnabod hawliau penodol i fyfyrwyr, ac mae hynny, rydw i'n meddwl, yn rhoi llawer o eglurder iddyn nhw, fel myfyrwyr sy'n dymuno astudio trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ac yn y blaen, beth y gallan nhw ei ddisgwyl gennym ni fel sefydliad. Rydw i'n derbyn bod yna heriau o amgylch darparu hawliau cyffredinol sylfaenol i siaradwyr Cymraeg, ac rydw i'n siŵr bod yna bobl yma sydd â mwy o arbenigedd i allu manylu ar hynny, ond rydw i'n meddwl bod, efallai, yna fwlch yna a gallai'r math yna o agenda fod wedi mynd yn bellach.
English: The emphasis has, of course, been on regulation and legislation, hasn't it? Is that a fair assessment of the period since 2011, and is that the appropriate work of the Assembly - the legislative side of things - or should there be further work done? Clearly, there needs to be further work done in terms of the economy and education, and so on, but is the whole debate about the Measure - and here we are again today, discussing the Measure and legislation - ? Is that a fair assessment, that we've been focusing too much on regulation, or am I misinterpreting the situation?
Welsh: Mae'r pwyslais wedi bod, wrth gwrs, felly, ar reoleiddio a deddfwriaeth, onid yw? A ydy hwnnw yn asesiad teg o'r cyfnod ers 2011, ac ai dyna briod waith y Cynulliad yma - yr ochr deddfwriaethol - ynteu a oes yna waith pellach? Yn amlwg, mae yna waith pellach sydd angen ei wneud o ran yr economi ac addysg, ac yn y blaen, ond a ydy'r holl drafod am y Mesur - a dyma ni eto yn trafod y Mesur a deddfwriaeth - ? A ydy hynny yn asesiad teg, ynteu a ydw i'n camddehongli'r sefyllfa?
English: I think it's quite clear that it's the role of the Government mainly, but, under the current arrangements, there have been elements of that that have been part of the commissioner's remit as well. But the legislation doesn't mean that the responsibility is on the commissioner to be mainly responsible for promoting the Welsh language.
Welsh: Rydw i'n meddwl ei bod yn eithaf eglur taw rôl y Llywodraeth ydy hynny'n bennaf, ond, o dan y trefniadau presennol, mae elfennau o hynny wedi bod oddi fewn i waith y comisiynydd hefyd. Ond, nid yw'r Ddeddf mewn unrhyw ffordd yn golygu bod y cyfrifoldeb ar y comisiynydd i fod yn bennaf gyfrifol am hybu'r iaith.
English: I think it's interesting to look back at the evidence that this committee received from the former Minister Alun Ffred Jones, who was very enthusiastically in support of the idea that it's the responsibility of Government to promote and facilitate the use of the language. When the Measure was passed initially - I like to quote Joni Mitchell on this point:
Welsh: Rydw i'n credu ei bod hi'n ddiddorol i edrych nôl ar y dystiolaeth a gafodd y pwyllgor yma gan y cyn-Weinidog Alun Ffred Jones, a oedd yn frwd iawn dros y syniad mai cyfrifoldeb y Llywodraeth dylai fod hybu a hyrwyddo a hwyluso a galluogi ac ati. Pan basiwyd y Mesur yn y lle cyntaf - rydw i'n hoffi dyfynnu Joni Mitchell ar y pwynt yma
English: We'll come back to the proposals -
Welsh: Down ni yn ôl at y cynigion -
English: Sorry, I've jumped forward.
Welsh: Sori, rydw i wedi mynd yn rhy bell.
English: We'll come back to the new proposals and what's going to happen in future.
Welsh: Fe ddown ni yn ôl at y cynigion newydd a beth sy'n mynd i ddigwydd i'r dyfodol.
English: Just coming back to Emyr, so that he can respond to that, and we'll come back to the legislation, the proposals in the White Paper, new legislation and so on in greater detail. But, just explain this point, and then we'll go on to the standards.
Welsh: Jest dod yn ôl i Emyr gael ymateb i hynny, ac wedyn mi ddown ni'n ôl at y ddeddfwriaeth, cynigion y Papur Gwyn, deddfwriaeth newydd a ballu yn fwy manwl. Ond, jest i glirio'r pwynt yma, ac wedyn mi awn ni ymlaen i'r safonau.
English: Yes, I don't think it's an either/or situation, because there are too many 'either/ors' in this conversation, and both are needed. You asked what the optimum model is, so you're asking a very dangerous question there, because you're inviting us to say everything that we would like to see in this field. Everything that we would like to see goes far beyond what is before us - for example, the statutory right to a Welsh language education, and the funding behind that to ensure that it happens. Those kinds of things are also part of the package that one would wish to see, and these other aspects are part of it as well.
Welsh: Ie, nid wyf yn meddwl mai naill ai/neu yw hi. Mae gennym ni ormod o 'naill ai/neus' yn yr holl drafodaeth yma, ac mae angen y ddau. Roeddech chi'n gofyn beth oedd yr optimwm, felly rydych chi'n gofyn cwestiwn peryglus fanna, oherwydd rydych chi'n ein gwahodd ni wedyn i ddweud beth yw'r holl beth y byddem ni'n dymuno ei weld. Mae'r holl beth y byddem ni'n dymuno ei weld yn mynd ymhell tu hwnt i'r hyn sydd ger bron - er enghraifft, hawl statudol i addysg Gymraeg, a'r cyllid y tu cefn i hynny i sicrhau ei fod o'n digwydd. Mae'r math yna o bethau hefyd yn rhan o'r pecyn byddai rhywun yn dymuno ei weld, ac mae'r pethau eraill yma'n rhan ohono.
English: But, in terms of an agency within Government?
Welsh: Ond, o ran asiantaeth Llywodraeth?
English: It's not either/or. Of course, all of the good points that Elin has mentioned, in terms of strengthening how the Welsh language is seen and respected within Government are very necessary, but I do, truly, believe that, without an agency outwith Government, then there is a risk that things won't happen as swiftly and as conveniently as they might otherwise.
Welsh: Nid naill ai/neu yw hi. Hynny yw, wrth gwrs, mae'r holl bethau da mae Elin wedi sôn amdanyn nhw, o ran cryfhau'r sut mae'r Gymraeg yn cael ei gweld a'i pharchu oddi mewn i Lywodraeth yn bethau sydd eu hangen, ond rydw i'n wirioneddol gredu, heb asiantaeth y tu allan i'r Llywodraeth, fod yna berygl na fydd pethau yn digwydd cyn gyflymed a chyn hwylused ag y bydden nhw fel arall.
English: Well, research encompasses a wide range of areas, but I think that perhaps what we would say is that, one gap -
Welsh: Wel, mae'r gwaith ymchwil yn cwmpasu ystod o feysydd, ond efallai beth byddem ni'n ei ddweud yw, un bwlch -
English: I think that where you're going with that question is that one gap in our research, but also generally, in terms of the area of language policy internationally, is systematic comparisons of governance models, if you like, with regard to regional or minority languages, such as the Welsh language. If I was talking to my colleagues in this area, one of the criticisms is that you tend to have studies that look very carefully at individual cases, but not a great deal of comparison between them, and that's a weakness in the area that we would like to get to grips with in future. So, our research to date hasn't been able to make that international comparison in terms of comparing models where you have, for example, a commissioner and a government or models where you have a single external agency. That is a weakness in terms of the area as a whole.
Welsh: Rydw i'n credu lle rydych chi'n mynd gyda'r cwestiwn, ac un bwlch yn ein gwaith ymchwil ni, ond hefyd yn gyffredinol, o ran maes ymchwil polisi iaith yn rhyngwladol, yw cymariaethau systematig o fodelau llywodraethiant, os liciwch chi, mewn perthynas ag ieithoedd rhanbarthol neu leiafrifol fel y Gymraeg. Pe bawn i'n siarad â fy nghydweithwyr sy'n gweithio yn y maes, un o'r beirniadaethau yw bod yna duedd i chi gael astudiaethau sy'n edrych yn fanwl iawn ar achosion unigol, ond falle ddim lot o gymharu, ac mae hynny'n wendid yn y maes. Byddem ni'n hoffi medru mynd i edrych ymhellach arno yn y dyfodol. So, nid yw ein hymchwil ni, hyd yn hyn, wedi gallu gwneud y cymharu rhyngwladol yna o ran cymharu modelau, er enghraifft, lle mae gennych chi gomisiynydd a llywodraeth neu fodelau lle mae gennych chi un asiantaeth allanol. Mae e'n wendid o ran y maes yn gyffredinol ar hyn o bryd.
English: Okay. We'll come back to those more international aspects later. But back to the standards, and I'll bring David Melding in here.
Welsh: Ocê. Fe ddown ni'n ôl at y pwyntiau mwy rhyngwladol. Ond yn ôl at y safonau, ac mi ddof i â David Melding i mewn.
English: The first point to make in answering that question is to return to the general points that I was trying to make in terms of the various considerations in relation to language policy in relation to the Welsh language and the role of legislation in relation to that. So, the Welsh language strategy, 'Cymraeg 2050', the main target there is that target of increasing the number of Welsh speakers. On a practical level, beyond the points that Emyr mentioned, in terms of establishing more specific rights in relation to access to Welsh-medium education, the role of legislation in creating new speakers, rightly or wrongly, is relatively limited. The main impact of legislation is to place legal duties on organisations and institutions so that they provide services to those Welsh speakers who wish to use the language. Legislation can also create structures - it can create the role of commissioner and it can create a promotion agency, if it so wishes - but the legislation in and of itself isn't what is going to drive that increase in the number of Welsh speakers. So, in that regard, it's not appropriate, I would argue, to weigh up the legislation according to the targets of the strategy.
Welsh: Rwy'n meddwl mai'r lle cyntaf i ateb y cwestiwn yna yw drwy fynd yn ôl i'r pwyntiau cyffredinol yr oeddwn i'n ceisio eu gwneud o ran y gwahanol ystyriaethau sydd i bolisi iaith mewn perthynas â'r Gymraeg a rôl deddfwriaeth fel rhan o hynny. O ran strategaeth iaith 'Cymraeg 2050', y targed pennaf yn hwnnw yw'r targed o gynyddu nifer y siaradwyr Cymraeg. Yn ymarferol, tu hwnt i'r pwyntiau roedd Emyr yn sôn amdanynt, o ran sefydlu hawliau mwy penodol o ran mynediad at addysg Gymraeg, mae rôl deddfwriaeth yn ei hun o ran creu siaradwyr newydd, yn gam neu'n gymwys, yn gymharol gyfyngedig. Pennaf impact deddfwriaeth yw ein bod ni'n gallu gosod dyletswyddau cyfreithiol ar sefydliadau er mwyn iddyn nhw, wedyn, fod yn darparu'r gwasanaethau i'r siaradwyr Cymraeg yna sy'n dymuno defnyddio'r iaith. Mae deddfwriaeth hefyd, wedyn, yn gallu creu strwythurau - mae'n gallu creu swydd comisiynydd ac mae'n gallu creu asiantaeth hybu, os yw hi'n dymuno - ond nid y ddeddfwriaeth ynddo'i hun sydd yn mynd i greu'r mentrau sydd yn mynd i gynyddu nifer y siaradwyr. Felly, yn hynny o beth, nid yw hi'n briodol, byddwn i'n dueddol o ddadlau, i bwyso a mesur y ddeddfwriaeth yn ôl beth yw targedau'r strategaeth.
English: I think that we have had that, to an extent, in section 1 of the Measure, which states or declares the official status of the Welsh language. I still believe that it's far too complex - the way that it's written, similar to the rest of the legislation - but it is there. So, there is a constitutional declaration, if you like - I see what you're saying - there. But, in terms of whether this Measure is sufficient to pursue the Government's policy, you could argue, in one sense, that it is, because although the promotional functions of the language board have been transferred to the Welsh Ministers, the commissioner does have her own promotional powers under the Measure. To an extent, if what you're seeking is to eradicate the dogma of nine years ago and go back to a promoter and a regulator on a joint basis, then there is a means of doing so under the current legislation. All you need to do is increase the funding, and earmark funding, from Welsh Ministers to the commissioner to continue with that promotional work as well. So, I think that you could - there would need to be some minor amendments to the Measure, but you could, if that's your intention, do that.
Welsh: Rwy'n credu ein bod ni, i raddau, wedi cael hynny yn adran 1 y Mesur, sydd yn datgan statws swyddogol y Gymraeg. Rwy'n dal i fod yn credu ei fod yn llawer rhy gymhleth - y ffordd y mae e wedi ei ysgrifennu, fel gweddill y Mesur - ond mae e yno. Felly, mae datganiad cyfansoddiadol, os liciwch chi - rwy'n gweld yr hyn rydych yn ei ddweud - yno. Rwy'n credu, o ran a yw'r Mesur yma'n ddigonol i fwrw ymlaen â pholisi'r Llywodraeth, fe allech chi ddadlau, mewn un ffordd, ei fod, oherwydd er bod swyddogaethau hyrwyddo bwrdd yr iaith wedi cael eu trosglwyddo i Weinidogion Cymru, mae gan y comisiynydd ei phwerau hyrwyddo ei hun o dan y Mesur. Felly, i raddau, os mai'r hyn rydych chi'n chwilio amdano ydy chwalu dogma naw mlynedd yn ôl a mynd yn ôl at hyrwyddwr a rheoleiddiwr ynghyd, yna mae modd gwneud hynny o dan y ddeddfwriaeth bresennol. Y cwbl sydd angen ei wneud ydy cynyddu cyllid a chlustnodi cyllid gan Weinidogion Cymru i'r comisiynydd i fwrw ymlaen â gwaith hyrwyddo hefyd. Felly, rwy'n credu y byddai modd i chi - byddai angen rhai mân ddiwygiadau, rwy'n credu, i'r Mesur, ond byddai modd i chi, os mai dyna yw eich bwriad chi, i wneud hynny.
English: In 2010, I was sceptical about the ability of this system to work, because of its complexity - first, because of its complexity, and secondly because it didn't give real rights in the sense that individuals could directly enforce their rights against a body rather than having to go through the commissioner. I think that over-complexity is still a problem; I hold to that. The more complex a machine is, the more likely it is to fail. In terms of the rights, I'm less dogmatic on that issue than I was. I can see that this regime has succeeded in generating compliance, thanks to two things, I believe. First, the hard work and will of the commissioner and her team, and, secondly, generally speaking, goodwill within the public sector. I say 'generally speaking' because it is clear that there are still some areas where there is not only a lack of interest but also opposition to the concept of using the Welsh language in the public sector. So, in terms of rights, I do still think that we need to provide those rights, but I doff my cap to this concept of standards. It has worked better than I had anticipated.
Welsh: Yn 2010, roeddwn i'n sgeptigol ynglŷn â gallu'r gyfundrefn yma i weithio, oherwydd ei chymhlethdod - dau reswm: oherwydd ei chymhlethdod ac, yn ail, oherwydd nad oedd hi'n rhoi hawliau go iawn yn yr ystyr bod unigolion yn gallu gorfodi'r hawliau yn erbyn y corff yn uniongyrchol, yn hytrach na gorfod mynd trwy'r comisiynydd. Rydw i'n credu bod y gorgymhlethdod - rydw i'n dal at hynny. Po fwyaf cymhleth bo peiriant, y mwyaf tebygol y mae'r peiriant hwnnw o fethu. O ran yr hawliau, rydw i'n llai dogmatig ynglŷn â hynny nag oeddwn i. Rydw i'n gallu gweld bod y gyfundrefn yma wedi llwyddo i greu cydymffurfiaeth - diolch, rydw i'n credu, i ddau beth. Yn gyntaf oll, ewyllys a gwaith caled y comisiynydd a'i thîm, ac yn yr ail le, ar y cyfan, ewyllys da oddi mewn i'r sector gyhoeddus. Rydw i'n dweud 'ar y cyfan', achos mae'n eglur bod yna o hyd, mewn rhai mannau, nid dim ond diffyg diddordeb ond hefyd gwrthwynebiad i'r cysyniad o ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg yn y sector gyhoeddus. Felly, o ran hawliau, rydw i'n dal i fod yn credu bod angen rhoi hawliau, ond rydw i'n tynnu fy het i'r cysyniad o safonau. Mae o wedi gweithio'n well nag oeddwn i wedi rhagweld.
English: One does feel that more time is needed by them, and also that the burdensome nature of some of these - . We need to look in great detail and to scrutinise the meaning of some of these things. I think the evidence of the Welsh Language Tribunal to you is very interesting on this point. They suggest something similar, namely t hat it would be a good thing to make the system less detailed and more accessible legally. Less legalese, perhaps, would be the term.
Welsh: Mae rhywun yn teimlo bod angen mwy o amser arnyn nhw, ac mae rhywun yn teimlo hefyd fod natur feichus rhai o'r - . Mae angen edrych yn fanwl a chraffu'n fanwl ar ystyr fanwl rhai o'r pethau yma. Mae tystiolaeth, rydw i'n credu, Tribiwnlys y Gymraeg ichi, yn ddiddorol iawn ar y pwynt yma. Maen nhw'n awgrymu rhywbeth tebyg - y byddai hi'n beth da i wneud y gyfundrefn yn llai manwl ac yn fwy hylaw yn gyfreithiol. Llai 'cyfreithlyd', os leiciwch chi, os ydy hynny'n cyfieithu i'r Saesneg, nid ydw i'n siŵr.