English: Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. We've had an interesting debate, and I think it's been measured and temperate, as it should be. It's an important issue for democracy, but it's also, beyond that, as Alun Davies pointed out in his speech, which I thought was an extremely good speech, about the way in which we treat people even though they are incarcerated and outside the scope of general society. I strongly believe that prisoners should be treated in a humane way. I've been involved for many years with a charity that was set up by Lord Longford, who was a great friend of mine, called the New Bridge to reintegrate ex-prisoners into society, and I appreciate the excellent work that they've done. Mark Isherwood, in his contribution, referred to others, like Clean Slate and SToMP, doing similar work. This is absolutely vital if we are to reintegrate people into society as law-abiding individuals. Prison, of course, has a deterrent purpose and a punishment purpose, but it's no good if at the end of it people have learned nothing and simply reoffend, and as Jenny Rathbone pointed out in her intervention in my speech earlier on, recidivism is an important element of this, and whether granting prisoners the right to vote is going to have any impact, I very much doubt. I do believe that it's a matter for us as legislators to decide - not judges, least of all foreign judges - whether, as part of the punishment for the commission of crime, prisoners lose the right to vote whilst they are inside. Huw Irranca-Davies, of course, in his contribution gave us a bit of the history: of course, before the 1830s, the right to vote was very largely a property right and not a right in the sense that we would understand it today as a democratic right, and the Forfeiture Act of 1870 was the start of the process of removing the right to vote from prisoners in its modern context. I strongly support what Alun Davies said about what happens to prisoners on release, and it's very important in advance of their being released that we should begin the process of reintegration. I can see the arguments for the proposition that he's put forward. I think it's an attractive proposition because you can see the practical purpose of it: prisoners reach the end of their sentences, they're getting to the end of the deterrent effect and the punishment effect of their sentence, and you can see, then, that the rehabilitative element is much more important, perhaps, than it is at the beginning. So, that's certainly something that I would be prepared to consider supporting as part of the process. I'll say to John Griffiths, as the Chairman of the equalities committee, that this debate is not intended in any way to pre-empt the committee's report. One of the things that has most impressed me about this Assembly since I've been here is the way that these cross-party committees are genuine cross-party committees, and in their reports, they genuinely try to achieve a consensus that can inform the debate, and I hope that this debate, like the Plaid Cymru debate a couple of weeks ago, is part of the process - a contribution, if you like, to your work and not an attempt to supplant it or substitute for it. I appreciate that the Minister was limited in what she could say in her speech by having to consider this issue once the equalities committee has produced its report. I do strongly agree with something that she said also in relation to the number of people serving sentences that are very short term that don't actually provide much of a deterrent effect and they certainly produce problems in prison. Prisons can be very brutalising places. I've been inside lots of prisons in the course of my life - as a lawyer, I hasten to add [ Laughter. ] - and places like Wormwood Scrubs and Strangeways and Wandsworth prison, as it used to be, were very dehumanising places, and actually set back the process of rehabilitation. So, the building of new prisons is a vitally important element, I think, in restoring people to civil society in a better way than they went in, and that, of course, is to the benefit of us all. But I remain to be convinced that an essential part of this process is granting prisoners the vote. We will await the results of the equality committee's deliberations and indeed, then, the Government's proposals.
Welsh: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Lywydd. Rydym wedi cael dadl ddiddorol, a chredaf y bu'n ddadl bwyllog a chymedrol, fel y dylai fod. Mae'n fater pwysig i ddemocratiaeth, ond y tu hwnt i hynny, fel y nododd Alun Davies yn ei araith, a oedd yn araith dda iawn yn fy marn i, mae hefyd yn ymwneud â'r ffordd rydym yn trin pobl er eu bod wedi eu carcharu a'r tu allan i gyrraedd cymdeithas yn gyffredinol. Credaf yn gryf y dylid trin carcharorion mewn ffordd ddynol. Rwyf wedi bod yn ymwneud ers blynyddoedd lawer ag elusen a sefydlwyd gan yr Arglwydd Longford, a oedd yn ffrind da i mi, o'r enw New Bridge, ar gyfer ailintegreiddio cyn-garcharorion yn y gymdeithas, ac rwy'n gwerthfawrogi'r gwaith rhagorol y maent wedi'i wneud. Cyfeiriodd Mark Isherwood yn ei gyfraniad at elusennau eraill, megis Clean Slate a SToMP, sy'n gwneud gwaith tebyg. Mae hyn yn gwbl hanfodol os ydym am ailintegreiddio pobl yn y gymdeithas fel unigolion sy'n parchu'r gyfraith. Diben carchar wrth gwrs yw atal a chosbi, ond nid oes unrhyw bwynt i hynny os nad yw pobl wedi dysgu unrhyw beth ar ei ddiwedd a'u bod yn aildroseddu, ac fel y dywedodd Jenny Rathbone yn ei hymyriad yn ystod fy araith yn gynharach, mae troseddu parhaus yn elfen bwysig o hyn, ac rwy'n amau'n fawr y bydd rhoi'r hawl i garcharorion bleidleisio yn cael unrhyw effaith. Credaf mai mater i ni fel deddfwyr yw penderfynu - nid barnwyr, ac yn bendant nid barnwyr tramor - a yw carcharorion, fel rhan o'r gosb am gyflawni trosedd, yn colli'r hawl i bleidleisio tra byddant yn y carchar. Rhoddodd Huw Irranca-Davies ychydig o'r hanes i ni yn ei gyfraniad: wrth gwrs, cyn y 1830au, roedd yr hawl i bleidleisio'n hawl eiddo i raddau helaeth ac nid yn hawl ddemocrataidd yn yr ystyr y byddem yn ei ddeall ei heddiw, a Deddf Fforffedu 1870 oedd dechrau'r broses o ddiddymu hawl carcharorion i bleidleisio yn ei chyd-destun modern. Rwy'n cefnogi'r hyn a ddywedodd Alun Davies ynglŷn â'r hyn sy'n digwydd i garcharorion pan gânt eu rhyddhau, ac mae'n bwysig iawn ein bod yn dechrau'r broses o ailintegreiddio cyn iddynt gael eu rhyddhau. Gallaf weld y dadleuon o blaid yr hyn a gyflwynwyd ganddo. Credaf ei fod yn atyniadol gan y gallwch weld ei ddiben ymarferol: mae carcharorion yn dod i ddiwedd eu dedfrydau, maent yn dod i ddiwedd effaith ataliol ac effaith gosbol eu dedfryd, a gallwch weld, felly, fod yr elfen adsefydlu yn llawer pwysicach, efallai, nag y mae ar y dechrau. Felly, yn sicr, mae hynny'n rhywbeth y buaswn yn barod i ystyried ei gefnogi fel rhan o'r broses. Rwyf am ddweud wrth John Griffiths, fel Cadeirydd y pwyllgor cydraddoldeb, nad bwriad y ddadl hon mewn unrhyw ffordd yw achub y blaen ar adroddiad y pwyllgor. Un o'r pethau rwy'n eu hedmygu fwyaf ynghylch y Cynulliad hwn ers i mi fod yma yw'r ffordd y mae'r pwyllgorau trawsbleidiol hyn yn bwyllgorau gwirioneddol drawsbleidiol, ac yn eu hadroddiadau, maent o ddifrif yn ceisio sicrhau consensws a all lywio'r ddadl, a gobeithio bod y ddadl hon, fel dadl Plaid Cymru ychydig wythnosau yn ôl, yn rhan o'r broses - cyfraniad, os mynnwch, at eich gwaith, ac nid ymgais i'w ddisodli neu gymryd ei le. Rwy'n sylweddoli bod cyfyngiad ar yr hyn y gallai'r Gweinidog ei ddweud yn ei haraith gan y bydd yn rhaid iddi ystyried y mater hwn pan fydd y pwyllgor cydraddoldeb wedi cynhyrchu ei adroddiad. Rwy'n cytuno'n gryf â rhywbeth a ddywedodd hefyd mewn perthynas â nifer y bobl sy'n bwrw dedfrydau byr iawn yn y carchar nad ydynt mewn gwirionedd yn darparu llawer o effaith ataliol, ac yn sicr, maent yn cynhyrchu problemau yn y carchar. Gall carchardai fod yn lleoedd annymunol iawn. Rwyf wedi bod mewn llawer o garchardai yn ystod fy oes - fel cyfreithiwr, prysuraf i ychwanegu [ Chwerthin. ] - ac roedd lleoedd fel carchar Wormwood Scrubs a charchar Strangeways a charchar Wandsworth, fel yr arferai fod, yn lleoedd annynol iawn, ac yn rhwystr i'r broses adsefydlu mewn gwirionedd. Felly, mae adeiladu carchardai newydd yn elfen hanfodol bwysig yn fy marn i o'r broses o adsefydlu pobl yn y gymdeithas sifil mewn ffordd well na phan aethant i mewn, ac mae hynny, wrth gwrs, o fudd i bob un ohonom. Ond rwy'n dal i gael fy argyhoeddi bod rhoi hawl i garcharorion bleidleisio yn rhan hanfodol o'r broses hon. Fe arhoswn am ganlyniadau trafodaethau'r pwyllgor cydraddoldeb, a chynigion y Llywodraeth wedyn yn wir.