English: I thank Mike for those comments. They are very pertinent comments. He's absolutely right; people clearly do, when you ask them about devolution, want decision-making processes as close to them as possible and to know that they can have the opportunity to influence those. Can I say that I do agree also that how we reach out and we build engagement with others in various forms of devolved government, whether it be the regional mayors, whether it be the other nations of the UK, is equally important? It's building up alliances - building up and recognising common interests. I think one of the weaknesses to constitutional reform within the UK is that there hasn't been any civic hegemony around the fact that there is a need for change, and that everyone has a common interest in it. This isn't just about Wales. Obviously, we are here to look at the future of Wales, to have a commission to look at that, but this is equally as important, in terms of the democracy and civic engagement, within England as well. Our harmony, our engagement with England and with the other nations of the UK is as important to us as many other matters. In terms of governance, and the issue that he raises of further decentralisation of power, that is something that I've always supported, but when I said that it would be looking at governance within Wales, that has to include how governance can be better, and how governance might need to be closer to people. We often use this quote, don't we, that Nye Bevan said: 'The purpose of getting power is to be able to give it away.' Others talked about the withering away of the state over many years, but all these come back to one thing: how do you give greater empowerment to people as close to people as possible? That brings us on to the other point that Mike raised, which is directly relevant, and that is also recognising our interdependencies. I think, no matter what position you take, whether it be unionism, whether it be federalism, confederalism, independence or whatever version, they still all bring you back ultimately to how you engage with your neighbours, and what level of interdependency you have on issues, whether it be finance, whether it be currency or whatever, but what the mechanism should be to enable that to happen fairly within all the participants. And that seems to me the crux of that issue, so I agree with you on that very much.
Welsh: Diolch i Mike am y sylwadau yna. Maen nhw'n sylwadau perthnasol iawn. Mae'n hollol gywir; mae'n amlwg bod pobl, pan ofynnwch iddyn nhw am ddatganoli, yn awyddus i weld y prosesau sy'n gwneud penderfyniadau mor agos atynt â phosibl a chael gwybod y gallan nhw fod â chyfle i ddylanwadu ar y pethau hyn. A gaf i ddweud hefyd fy mod i'n cytuno bod y ffordd yr ydym ni'n estyn allan ac yn meithrin ymgysylltiad ag eraill mewn gwahanol fathau o lywodraeth ddatganoledig, boed yn feiri rhanbarthol, boed yn genhedloedd eraill y DU, lawn cyn bwysiced? Mae hyn yn meithrin cynghreirio - yn adeiladu ac yn cydnabod buddiannau cyffredin. Rwy'n credu mai un o'r gwendidau o ran diwygio cyfansoddiadol yn y DU yw na fu yna unrhyw oruchafiaeth ddinesig ynglŷn â'r ffaith fod yna angen am newid, a bod gan bawb ddiddordeb cyffredin ynddo. Nid ymwneud yn unig â Chymru y mae hyn. Yn amlwg, rydym ni yma i ystyried dyfodol Cymru, a chael comisiwn i edrych ar hyn, ond mae hynny lawn cyn bwysiced, o ran democratiaeth ac ymgysylltu dinesig, yn Lloegr hefyd. Mae ein cytgord ni, ein hymgysylltiad ni â Lloegr a chenhedloedd eraill y DU yr un mor bwysig i ni â llawer o faterion eraill. O ran llywodraethu, a'r mater y mae ef yn ei godi o ran datganoli pŵer ymhellach, dyna rywbeth yr wyf i wedi bod yn gefnogol iddo erioed. Ond pan ddywedais y byddai'n edrych ar lywodraethu yng Nghymru, mae'n rhaid i hynny gynnwys sut y gall llywodraethu fod yn well, a sut y gallai fod angen i lywodraethu fod yn agosach at y bobl. Rydym yn defnyddio'r dyfyniad hwn o eiddo Aneurin Bevan yn aml: 'Diben ennill grym yw gallu ei roi i eraill.' Fe soniodd rhai am grebachu'r wladwriaeth dros lawer o flynyddoedd, ond mae'r pethau hyn i gyd yn mynd yn ôl at yr un peth: sut rydych chi'n mynd i roi mwy o rym i bobl a hynny mor agos at y bobl â phosibl? Fe ddaw hynny â ni at y pwynt arall a gododd Mike, sy'n berthnasol yn uniongyrchol, ac mae hynny'n cydnabod ein rhyngddibyniaethau hefyd. Rwy'n credu, ni waeth beth fo'ch safbwynt chi, boed yn gadw'r undeb, yn ffederaliaeth, yn gydffederaliaeth, yn annibyniaeth neu ba fersiwn bynnag, gyda'r rhain i gyd fe ddowch chi'n ôl yn y pen draw i'r ffordd yr ydych chi'n ymgysylltu â'ch cymdogion, a pha fesur o gyd-ddibyniaeth sydd gennych chi ar faterion penodol, boed hynny'n gyllid, yn arian cyfred neu beth bynnag, ond beth ddylai'r mecanwaith fod i alluogi hynny i ddigwydd gyda chyfiawnder ymhlith yr holl gyfranogwyr. A dyna, mae'n ymddangos i mi, yw craidd y mater hwn, felly rwy'n cytuno â chi i raddau helaeth yn hynny o beth.