English: So, this issue has been going on for many, many years. The workers at Allied Steel and Wire in Cardiff first found themselves facing a loss of their pensions in 2002. ASW was a big employer in Cardiff, and it's easy to forget now, with the changes that have taken place in this city, how we did attract those big industrial employers. Some of the workers here today worked at ASW for 40 years prior to its collapse. They had paid into pensions that they assumed were going to be safe. They believed that they would be rewarded for their years of hard work with a retirement pension that would reflect their years of service, and they were wrong. I understand that this is a debate that we've had before in this Assembly. In fact, I set up a cross-party group with many of you in this Chamber in the last Assembly term to try and grapple with this issue. And I also understand that this is not a devolved issue. I genuinely would hope that if it were a devolved issue, we would have corrected this injustice and that we would have done something very, very different indeed. But it isn't, and the point of this debate here today is to try and work with the campaigners and to raise this up the political agenda again. I've said in numerous debates that we've had - be it on international affairs, be it on issues that are non-devolved - that we have to show moral leadership on these issues if we can't make the political decisions here in Wales. Now, when I was involved with the former Visteon pensions dispute - or Ford, as many of the campaigners at the time would have called it - I and others said that a pension was a salary deferred. It is not a cushy bonus, it is not a severance payment, it is not a golden parachute. It is a worker contribution deferred salary to ensure security and stability in old age. We all expect that. We all want that. In fact, that's what we were debating in the previous debate here today, about how we want that respect when we are all older. But why do we not do it in this regard to ASW workers who deserve the right to have that pension? So, for people such as ASW pensioners, the Visteon workers, or those involved with Equitable Life and so many other companies who have lost part of their pensions, this is what we should call it; we should call it theft by those companies who take the well-earned salaries, the well-earned pensions out of the pockets of the people that they should have been supporting. And we should keep that in mind throughout this debate. I think it's worth going through the timeline, very briefly, of this campaign, so we can remind ourselves just how much of a tough slog it's been for those campaigners. So, ASW collapsed and went into receivership in 2002. The majority of the workers were made redundant, and although the plant was acquired by the Spanish firm Celsa a year later, it was too late for many of those previously employed. It emerged during the course of talks between ASW, the then Welsh Assembly Government and the UK Government that there was a £21 million shortfall in the company pension funds. Despite a buyer being found for the facility, this did not include a return of guaranteed pension for workers made redundant. Eventually, most workers were offered around 40 per cent of their expected pension value - nothing at all close to what they deserved. So, a campaign was started, and many believed it had been successful when the then UK Labour Government announced the financial assistance scheme and, a year later, the pension protection fund. Now, it's easy to forget that, in 2002, the current system we have did not exist. At the time, there was a growing spectre of so-called wind-ups - workers no longer being paid the pensions they were promised and paid into based on length of service and their final salary at retirement, instead receiving whatever the schemes could afford to pay after the pensions of existing pensioners had been secured. The point of a wind-up was a sharp and immediate cost-cutting measure on the backs of workers, stealing from the workers, some of whom had paid into the pension schemes from many, many years. Tens of thousands of workers across the UK in various industries were affected in some way by closures, by companies and how they collapsed, and that was how their pensions were treated so disrespectfully. So, the fact that the ASW workers' strong and public campaign, backed by people such as Ros - now Baroness - Altmann, was successful in changing the law and introducing Government-backed pension security schemes is a huge achievement. Members here today, I know, will shudder to think of what might have happened to large numbers of Welsh workers had a scheme like the PPF not been set up, however imperfect that scheme is. But the ASW workers have not been given a fair share or fair treatment by successive UK Governments, despite the hard work of campaigners. So, the situation remains today that campaigners have not received anywhere close to the 90 per cent of the value of their pensions. In fact, the campaigners who are now in the FAS get no inflation indexation protection for their pre-1997 contributions, they get very little for post-1997 contributions, and have to suffer a payment cap also. The longer someone worked for this company, the worst position they are likely to find themselves in. There are people in this campaign group who gave 40 years of service to steelworking in Cardiff - and not just in Cardiff. There are people in Kent for whom this situation is just as real, for people who worked hard all their lives in good, skilled jobs with a good salary, to find, in their later years, what was one of financial worry. And I think this is an outrage. An outrage that was born in the original legislation and one that has not been corrected the UK Government. Now, I am conscious of time and I'd like to close by reading a quote from John Benson who has been diligent in keeping in touch with me and other AMs in this room on this issue. I know that although I don't represent his region, pension justice is something that I care passionately about, although I'm not in pensionable age yet. Despite that fact, I've worked diligently, as hard as I possibly can, with this campaign and with the Visteon pensioners in the past to try and fight for the pensions that they deserve. And it's phenomenal being part of the Visteon campaign - people were just spending all of their time in retirement on campaigning as opposed to actually enjoying the fruit of their labour. So, this is what John said, and then I'll finish with this: 'Almost 17 people have passed away and they're still being robbed of the pensions the Governments encouraged them to save in. That retirement dream has been shattered by Governments' flawed legislation. Many of these decent, hardworking men and women, it must be said, have been inhumanely betrayed by successive Governments. They don't deserve to be treated so unfairly; they put their trust in Governments and that trust was betrayed.' We have a duty to support and help those former ASW steelworks. I hope that we can do justice to their cause and continue to raise this issue on the highest levels of political engagement, make sure that action is taken, and support John and people like him.
Welsh: Felly, mae'r ddadl hon wedi bod yn mynd rhagddi ers blynyddoedd lawer. Canfu gweithwyr Allied Steel and Wire yng Nghaerdydd eu bod yn wynebu colli eu pensiynau yn 2002. Roedd ASW yn gyflogwr mawr yng Nghaerdydd, ac mae'n hawdd anghofio yn awr, gyda'r newidiadau sydd wedi digwydd yn y ddinas hon, sut roeddem yn denu'r cyflogwyr diwydiannol mawr hynny. Gweithiodd rhai o'r gweithwyr sydd yma heddiw yn ASW am 40 mlynedd cyn i'r cwmni fynd i'r wal. Roeddent wedi talu tuag at bensiynau y credent eu bod yn ddiogel. Roeddent yn credu y caent eu gwobrwyo am eu blynyddoedd o waith caled â phensiwn ymddeol a fyddai'n adlewyrchu eu blynyddoedd o wasanaeth, ac roeddent yn anghywir. Rwy'n deall bod hon yn ddadl a gawsom o'r blaen yn y Cynulliad. Yn wir, sefydlais grŵp trawsbleidiol gyda llawer ohonoch yn y Siambr hon yn ystod tymor diwethaf y Cynulliad i geisio mynd i'r afael â'r mater hwn. Ac rwy'n deall hefyd nad yw'n fater sydd wedi'i ddatganoli. Buaswn o ddifrif yn gobeithio, pe bai'n fater wedi'i ddatganoli, y byddem wedi cywiro'r anghyfiawnder hwn ac y byddem wedi gwneud rhywbeth gwahanol iawn yn wir. Ond nid yw'n fater datganoledig, a diben y ddadl hon yma heddiw yw ceisio gweithio gyda'r ymgyrchwyr a chodi hyn yn uwch eto ar yr agenda wleidyddol. Rwyf wedi dweud mewn nifer o ddadleuon a gawsom - boed ar faterion rhyngwladol, boed ar faterion nad ydynt wedi'u datganoli - fod yn rhaid inni ddangos arweiniad moesol ar y materion hyn os na allwn wneud y penderfyniadau gwleidyddol yma yng Nghymru. Nawr, pan oeddwn yn ymwneud ag anghydfod pensiynau Visteon o'r blaen - neu Ford, fel y byddai llawer o'r ymgyrchwyr ar y pryd wedi'i alw - roeddwn i ac eraill yn dweud mai cyflog wedi'i ohirio yw pensiwn, nid bonws hawdd, nid taliad diswyddo, nid parasiwt aur. Cyflog gohiriedig ar ffurf cyfraniad gweithwyr ydyw er mwyn sicrhau diogelwch a sefydlogrwydd yn eu henaint. Mae pawb ohonom yn disgwyl hynny. Mae pawb ohonom eisiau hynny. Yn wir, dyna a drafodwyd gennym yn y ddadl flaenorol yma heddiw, ynglŷn â sut rydym eisiau'r parch hwnnw pan fyddwn yn hŷn. Ond pam na wnawn ni hynny yn achos gweithwyr ASW sy'n haeddu'r hawl i gael y pensiwn hwnnw? Felly, ar gyfer pobl megis pensiynwyr ASW, gweithwyr Visteon, neu'r rhai sy'n gysylltiedig ag Equitable Life a chynifer o gwmnïau eraill sydd wedi colli rhan o'u pensiynau, dyma beth y dylem ei alw; dylem ei alw'n lladrad gan y cwmnïau hynny sy'n cymryd y cyflogau haeddiannol hynny, y pensiynau haeddiannol hynny allan o bocedi'r bobl y dylent fod yn eu cynnal. A dylem gadw hynny mewn cof drwy'r ddadl. Credaf ei bod yn werth mynd drwy linell amser yr ymgyrch hon yn fyr iawn, er mwyn inni atgoffa ein hunain pa mor galed yw hi wedi bod ar yr ymgyrchwyr hyn. Felly, aeth ASW i'r wal a mynd i law'r derbynnydd yn 2002. Cafodd y rhan fwyaf o'r gweithwyr eu diswyddo, ac er i'r cwmni Sbaenaidd Celsa gaffael y ffatri flwyddyn yn ddiweddarach, roedd yn rhy hwyr i lawer o'r rhai a gyflogid yn flaenorol. Daeth yn amlwg yn ystod trafodaethau rhwng ASW, Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru a Llywodraeth y DU ar y pryd fod diffyg o £21 miliwn yng nghronfeydd pensiwn y cwmni. Er bod rhywun wedi prynu'r safle, nid oedd hyn yn cynnwys enillion pensiwn gwarantedig ar gyfer gweithwyr a ddiswyddwyd. Yn y pen draw, cyngiwyd oddeutu 40 y cant o werth disgwyliedig eu pensiwn i'r rhan fwyaf o'r gweithwyr - nad oedd yn agos at yr hyn a haeddent. Felly, dechreuwyd ymgyrch, ac roedd llawer yn credu ei bod wedi llwyddo pan gyhoeddodd Llywodraeth Lafur y DU ar y pryd gynllun cymorth ariannol, a'r gronfa diogelu pensiynau flwyddyn yn ddiweddarach. Nawr, mae'n hawdd anghofio nad oedd y system bresennol sydd gennym yn bodoli yn 2002. Ar y pryd, roedd bwgan cynyddol yr hyn a elwid yn drefniadau dirwyn i ben - lle nad oedd gweithwyr mwyach yn cael y pensiynau a addawyd iddynt ac y talasant i mewn iddynt yn seiliedig ar hyd gwasanaeth a'u cyflog terfynol adeg ymddeol, a lle y byddent yn lle hynny yn cael beth bynnag y gallai'r cynlluniau fforddio ei dalu ar ôl sicrhau bod pensiynau'r rhai a oedd eisoes yn bensiynwyr wedi'u diogelu. Pwynt trefniadau dirwyn i ben oedd bod yn ddull sydyn ac uniongyrchol o dorri costau ar draul gweithwyr, lladrata oddi wrth y gweithwyr, gyda rhai ohonynt wedi bod yn talu i'r cynlluniau pensiwn ers llawer iawn o flynyddoedd. Cafodd degau o filoedd o weithwyr ledled y DU mewn amrywiol ddiwydiannau eu heffeithio mewn rhyw ffordd gan gau safleoedd, gan gwmnïau a'r modd yr aent i'r wal, a dyna sut y cafodd eu pensiynau eu trin mor amharchus. Felly, mae'r ffaith bod ymgyrch gref a chyhoeddus gweithwyr ASW, gyda chefnogaeth pobl megis Ros Altmann - y Farwnes Ros Altmann bellach - wedi llwyddo i newid y gyfraith a chyflwyno cynlluniau diogelu pensiynau wedi'u cefnogi gan y Llywodraeth yn gamp aruthrol. Gwn y bydd Aelodau yma heddiw'n arswydo wrth feddwl am yr hyn a allai fod wedi digwydd i nifer fawr o weithwyr Cymru pe bai cynllun fel y gronfa diogelu pensiynau heb gael ei sefydlu, er mor amherffaith yw'r cynllun hwnnw. Ond ni chafodd gweithwyr ASW gyfran deg na thriniaeth deg gan Lywodraethau olynol y DU, er gwaethaf gwaith caled yr ymgyrchwyr. Felly, y sefyllfa heddiw o hyd yw nad yw ymgyrchwyr wedi cael unrhyw beth yn debyg i 90 y cant o werth eu pensiynau. Mewn gwirionedd, nid yw'r ymgyrchwyr sydd bellach yn y cynllun cymorth ariannol yn cael unrhyw amddiffyniad mynegai chwyddiant ar eu cyfraniadau cyn 1997, ychydig iawn a gânt ar gyfraniadau ar ôl 1997, ac maent yn gorfod dioddef cap ar daliadau hefyd. Po hwyaf y bu rhywun yn gweithio i'r cwmni hwn, y gwaethaf yw'r sefyllfa y maent yn debygol o fod ynddi. Mae yna bobl yn y grŵp ymgyrchu a roddodd 40 mlynedd o wasanaeth i gynhyrchu dur yng Nghaerdydd - ac nid yng Nghaerdydd yn unig. Mae yna bobl yng Nghaint sy'n wynebu sefyllfa yr un mor real, pobl sydd wedi gweithio'n galed ar hyd eu hoes mewn swyddi medrus ar gyflogau da, ac sy'n wynebu'r poen meddwl ariannol hwn yn ystod eu blynyddoedd diweddarach. Ac mae'n warthus yn fy marn i. Gwarth a anwyd yn y ddeddfwriaeth wreiddiol ac un nad yw eto wedi'i gywiro gan Lywodraeth y DU. Nawr, rwy'n ymwybodol o'r amser, a hoffwn gau drwy ddarllen dyfyniad gan John Benson sydd wedi bod yn ddiwyd yn cadw mewn cysylltiad â mi ac ACau eraill yn yr ystafell hon ar y mater hwn. Er nad wyf yn cynrychioli ei ranbarth, gwn fod cyfiawnder pensiwn yn rhywbeth rwy'n malio'n fawr amdano, er nad wyf wedi cyrraedd oedran pensiwn fy hun eto. Er hynny, rwyf wedi gweithio'n ddiwyd, mor galed ag y gallaf, gyda'r ymgyrch hon a chyda phensiynwyr Visteon yn y gorffennol i geisio ymladd am y pensiynau y maent yn eu haeddu. Ac mae'n brofiad anhygoel bod yn rhan o ymgyrch Visteon - roedd pobl yn treulio'u holl amser wedi iddynt ymddeol yn ymgyrchu yn hytrach na mwynhau ffrwyth eu llafur. Felly, dyma'r hyn a ddywedodd John, ac fe fyddaf yn gorffen gyda hyn: 'Mae bron 17 o bobl wedi marw ac maent yn dal i gael y pensiynau y cawsant eu hannog gan y Llywodraeth i'w cynilo wedi'u dwyn oddi arnynt. Mae'r freuddwyd honno o ymddeoliad wedi ei dryllio gan ddeddfwriaeth ddiffygiol Llywodraethau. Rhaid dweud bod llawer o'r dynion a menywod gweithgar a pharchus hyn wedi cael eu bradychu mewn ffordd anynnol gan Lywodraethau olynol. Nid ydynt yn haeddu cael eu trin mor annheg; maent wedi rhoi eu ffydd mewn Llywodraethau a bradychwyd y ffydd honno.' Mae gennym ddyletswydd i gefnogi a helpu'r cyn-weithwyr dur ASW hynny. Rwy'n gobeithio y gallwn wneud cyfiawnder â'u hachos a pharhau i godi'r mater hwn ar y lefelau uchaf o ymwneud gwleidyddol, sicrhau y cymerir camau, a chefnogi John a phobl debyg iddo.