English: Well, well, 'you can't know what you don't know'. Well, Minister, you'd had seven reports before you signed off on that plan. You'd had seven reports from different parts of the health service that were telling you that there was a crucial service and that if you put all of that bad evidence together before you get the royal college's report, you can see that there are things seriously going wrong. I'm afraid that the Minister cannot stand here and say that he didn't know, or if he is telling us that he didn't know, then that takes us into a completely different area of competence, which is not where I want to go this afternoon. I think the Minister must accept - and it isn't us saying this; it is Health Inspectorate Wales and the audit office - that there are systematic structural problems with the governance, and Angela Burns is helpfully giving us the page reference - page 33. There are systematic problems not just in that health board. And isn't it time for the Minister to look again - to look at what the committee's report, which we discussed yesterday, said about some of the areas that the legislation that he's proposing will not address? Isn't it time for him to consider a single, integrated, truly independent health and care inspectorate that can look at all these issues across the board? Is it not time for him to take steps to align the health and social care complaints procedures and make sure that they're rigorous and make sure, for all those families who were ignored again, and again, and again when they raised concerns in Cwm Taf, that that will not happen again. Isn't it time for us to have truly independent whistleblowing procedures for health and care services in Wales, because if the Minister believes there is one, he's probably the only person left in this country who does. And is it not time, when it comes to quality of leadership - and this is so important - for the proper regulation of non-clinical NHS managers, including an agreed competence framework, consistent structures for training and development, and accountability procedures on a par with those to which clinical professionals are held? Will he today look at the seriousness of these issues and consider amending the quality and engagement Bill, as the committee has requested, to address all those issues, or, better still, withdraw and rewrite it, or does he expect us to believe that everything's fine?
Welsh: Wel, wel, 'ni allwch wybod yr hyn nad ydych yn ei wybod'. Wel, Weinidog, roeddech wedi cael saith adroddiad cyn i chi gymeradwyo'r cynllun hwnnw. Roeddech wedi cael saith adroddiad o wahanol rannau o'r gwasanaeth iechyd a ddywedai wrthych fod yna wasanaeth hanfodol a phe baech yn rhoi'r holl dystiolaeth wael honno ynghyd cyn i chi gael adroddiad y coleg brenhinol byddech wedi gweld bod pethau'n mynd yn ddifrifol o chwith. Mae arnaf ofn na all y Gweinidog sefyll yma a dweud nad oedd yn gwybod, neu os yw'n dweud wrthym nad oedd yn gwybod, mae hynny'n mynd â ni i mewn i faes cwbl wahanol o ran cymhwysedd, ac nid wyf am fynd i'r fan honno y prynhawn yma. Credaf fod yn rhaid i'r Gweinidog dderbyn - ac nid ni sy'n dweud hyn; Arolygiaeth Gofal Iechyd Cymru a'r swyddfa archwilio sy'n dweud hyn - fod problemau strwythurol systematig gyda'r trefniadau llywodraethu, ac mae Angela Burns yn ddigon caredig i roi rhif y dudalen i ni - tudalen 33. Mae problemau systematig i'w cael nid yn unig yn y bwrdd iechyd hwnnw. Ac onid yw'n bryd i'r Gweinidog edrych eto - edrych ar yr hyn a ddywedodd adroddiad y pwyllgor, a drafodwyd gennym ddoe, ynglŷn â rhai o'r meysydd na fydd y ddeddfwriaeth y mae'n ei chynnig yn mynd i'r afael â hwy? Onid yw'n bryd iddo ystyried un arolygiaeth iechyd a gofal integredig wirioneddol annibynnol a all edrych ar yr holl faterion hyn yn gyffredinol? Onid yw'n bryd iddo gymryd camau i alinio gweithdrefnau cwynion iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol a sicrhau eu bod yn drylwyr a sicrhau, i'r holl deuluoedd a anwybyddwyd drosodd a throsodd wedi iddynt leisio pryderon yng Nghwm Taf, na fydd hynny'n digwydd eto. Onid yw'n bryd inni gael gweithdrefnau chwythu'r chwiban gwirioneddol annibynnol ar gyfer gwasanaethau iechyd a gofal yng Nghymru, oherwydd os yw'r Gweinidog yn credu bod gennym un ar waith, mae'n debyg mai ef yw'r unig berson ar ôl yn y wlad sy'n credu hynny. Ac onid yw'n bryd, o ran ansawdd yr arweinyddiaeth - ac mae hyn mor bwysig - rheoleiddio rheolwyr anghlinigol y GIG yn briodol, gan gynnwys fframwaith cymhwysedd y cytunwyd arno, strwythurau cyson ar gyfer hyfforddi a datblygu, a gweithdrefnau atebolrwydd ar yr un lefel â'r rheini sydd ar waith ar gyfer clinigwyr proffesiynol? A wnaiff edrych heddiw ar ddifrifoldeb y materion hyn ac ystyried diwygio'r Bil ansawdd ac ymgysylltu, fel y mae'r pwyllgor wedi gofyn, i fynd i'r afael â'r holl faterion hynny, neu'n well byth, ei dynnu'n ôl a'i ailysgrifennu, neu a yw'n disgwyl inni gredu bod popeth yn iawn?