English: What the proposed prison in Port Talbot was truly about, in my view, was a Westminster Government that had failed to invest in Wales, had cancelled major infrastructure projects or failed to back others. It was another example of a Westminster Government that believed that Wales, having a flatlining economy, would jump at the chance to host anything with even a mild prospect of investment, regardless of what that investment was or the implications of it. We deserve better than that now and we did so then when the campaign was at its height. I must say, too, that the Welsh Government did, at the beginning, jump at the prospect of a prison; I remember the words of Carwyn Jones when he was First Minister. So, I am very pleased that the backbench Member now, but Minister at the time, Alun Davies was changing his mind on that and putting forward some very progressive ideas. What this prison was about for us, and what it became about for many involved in the prison campaign was a conversation about our future and how we deal with the wider issues surrounding criminal justice. Is it right that the fate of Welsh prisoners is decided by a Minister in England? Is it right that, despite 20 years of devolution and an increasing body of Welsh law, we don't have a say over this huge, increasingly important aspect of policy? Is it right that Wales's prisoners are sent to English prisons and England's prisoners are kept here in Wales? And, of course, the wider question: why do we keep going down the road of mass incarceration instead of having a conversation about why we send people to prison in the first place, who actually needs to be in prison and how we need to focus on their rehabilitative needs? We had many of those discussions as part of the campaign in Port Talbot and we showed that, contrary to what some people may think, there is not as widespread a view as that which UKIP espouses - the throw-away-the-key attitude that some people may have. Do people believe that those convicted of a crime should pay penance? Yes. And we believe that too; we don't believe in having no prisons - that would be entirely absurd. But there is also true understanding and an eagerness to ensure that those convicted of less serious crimes are given a chance to turn their lives around and rectify their mistakes in a decent way. We have to be wary, though, that the Ministry of Justice is still exploring the possibility of a new superprison in south Wales. The argument stands, as it did in Port Talbot, that we do not need another prison in south Wales. And I think the Ministry of Justice actually does itself a disservice in how it perceives Welsh politicians, because just by moving to another area of south Wales doesn't mean that we're not going to campaign, it doesn't mean that they're going to not face local opposition; we will take that campaign to that community, wherever it is, whether I represent that area or not, because we do not want that prison here in Wales. So, I hope that the Ministry of Justice takes note of that. I believe that the UK Government position on this is predicated on the notion of more of the same. They hold a position that doesn't take reform seriously, seeks to deliver justice and rehabilitation on the cheap, locking people up in large prisons without enough resources, and they do that because the staff there have told us. Whistleblowers have come to us and said that that is what is happening. Under those circumstances, it's no wonder that the MoJ are looking to build more prisons. So, we take a different view, as Leanne Wood has mentioned earlier, and argue strongly that, by refocusing how we treat convicted people, by overhauling sentencing laws and penal policy and by renationalising and reprioritising probation and rehabilitation, then we can cut and reduce the demand for prison places. Now, I don't have much time left, but what I would like to end on is trying to, perhaps, re-understand what this meaningful conversation with the MoJ actually means. I didn't understand it under the other Minister and I still don't understand what it means. We need clarification on - if the policy is not to have more prisons here in Wales, when and what those meaningful conversations with the MoJ will be to change your mind. What will it take for the Welsh Government to change your mind on some of these key issues of principle in relation to what we want to do with the future of our criminal justice system? If I get that clarity here today, I will be very pleased indeed, but I am thankful that we are continuing this debate and that we can address some of these issues, hopefully, in a progressive way.
Welsh: Yn fy marn i, yr hyn roedd a wnelo'r carchar arfaethedig ym Mhort Talbot mewn gwirionedd oedd Llywodraeth yn San Steffan a oedd wedi methu buddsoddi yng Nghymru, a oedd wedi canslo prosiectau seilwaith mawr neu wedi methu cefnogi rhai eraill. Roedd yn enghraifft arall o Lywodraeth San Steffan yn credu y byddai Cymru, gyda'i heconomi wastad, yn bachu'r cyfle i gael y gobaith lleiaf o fuddsoddiad, ni waeth beth oedd y buddsoddiad hwnnw neu beth oedd ei oblygiadau. Rydym yn haeddu gwell na hynny nawr ac roeddem yn haeddu gwell pan oedd yr ymgyrch ar ei hanterth. Hefyd, rhaid imi ddweud bod Llywodraeth Cymru ar y dechrau wedi neidio at y posibilrwydd o garchar; rwy'n cofio geiriau Carwyn Jones pan oedd yn Brif Weinidog. Felly, rwy'n falch iawn fod Alun Davies, sy'n Aelod o'r meinciau cefn bellach, ond a oedd yn Weinidog ar y pryd, wedi newid ei feddwl ar hynny ac yn cyflwyno rhai syniadau blaengar iawn. Yr hyn oedd y carchar hwn i ni, a'r hyn y daeth i olygu i lawer a gymerodd ran yn ymgyrch y carchar oedd sgwrs am ein dyfodol a sut rydym yn ymdrin â materion ehangach yn ymwneud â chyfiawnder troseddol. A yw'n iawn fod Gweinidog yn Lloegr yn penderfynu ar dynged carcharorion Cymru? A yw'n iawn, er gwaethaf 20 mlynedd o ddatganoli a chorff cynyddol o gyfraith Gymreig, nad oes gennym lais dros yr elfen bolisi enfawr a chynyddol bwysig hon? A yw'n iawn fod carcharorion Cymru'n cael eu hanfon i garchardai yn Lloegr a bod carcharorion Lloegr yn cael eu cadw yma yng Nghymru? Ac wrth gwrs, y cwestiwn ehangach: pam rydym yn dal i ddilyn trywydd o garcharu ar raddfa fawr yn hytrach na chael sgwrs ynglŷn â pham rydym yn anfon pobl i'r carchar yn y lle cyntaf, pwy ddylai fod yn y carchar mewn gwirionedd a sut y mae angen inni ganolbwyntio ar eu hanghenion adsefydlu? Cawsom lawer o'r trafodaethau hynny fel rhan o'r ymgyrch ym Mhort Talbot a dangoswyd, yn groes i'r hyn y byddai rhai pobl yn ei feddwl o bosibl, nad oes cefnogaeth mor eang i'r farn y mae UKIP yn ei harddel - yr ymagwedd 'taflu'r allwedd' a allai fod gan rai pobl. A yw pobl yn credu y dylai'r rheini a geir yn euog o drosedd gael eu cosbi? Ydynt. Ac rydym ni'n credu hynny hefyd; nid ydym yn credu mewn peidio â chael carchardai - byddai hynny'n gwbl hurt. Ond mae yna wir ddealltwriaeth ac awydd i sicrhau y rhoddir cyfle i rai a geir yn euog o droseddau llai difrifol allu newid eu bywydau a chywiro eu camgymeriadau mewn modd gweddus. Rhaid inni fod yn wyliadwrus, er hynny, gan fod y Weinyddiaeth Gyfiawnder yn dal i ymchwilio i'r posibilrwydd o garchar mawr newydd yn ne Cymru. Mae'r ddadl yn aros, fel y gwnaeth ym Mhort Talbot, nad oes angen carchar arall yn ne Cymru. Ac rwy'n credu bod y Weinyddiaeth Gyfiawnder yn gwneud cam â hi ei hun yn y modd y mae'n synied am wleidyddion Cymru, oherwydd nid yw symud i ardal arall o dde Cymru'n golygu nad ydym yn mynd i ymgyrchu, nid yw'n golygu nad ydynt yn mynd i wynebu gwrthwynebiad lleol; byddwn yn mynd â'r ymgyrch at y gymuned honno, lle bynnag y bo, ni waeth a fyddaf yn cynrychioli'r ardal honno ai peidio, oherwydd nid ydym eisiau'r carchar hwnnw yma yng Nghymru. Felly, rwy'n gobeithio y bydd y Weinyddiaeth Gyfiawnder yn nodi hynny. Rwy'n credu bod safbwynt Llywodraeth y DU ar hyn yn seiliedig ar y syniad o fwy o'r un peth. Maent yn arddel safbwynt nad yw o ddifrif ynglŷn â diwygio, sy'n ceisio darparu cyfiawnder ac adsefydlu'n rhad, cloi pobl mewn carchardai mawr heb ddigon o adnoddau, ac maent yn gwneud hynny oherwydd mae'r staff yno wedi dweud wrthym. Mae chwythwyr chwiban wedi dod atom ac wedi dweud mai dyna beth sy'n digwydd. O dan yr amgylchiadau hynny, nid yw'n syndod fod y Weinyddiaeth Gyfiawnder yn ystyried adeiladu mwy o garchardai. Felly, mae ein safbwynt ni'n wahanol, fel y soniodd Leanne Wood yn gynharach, ac rydym yn dadlau'n gryf, drwy newid ffocws y ffordd rydym yn trin pobl a gafwyd yn euog, drwy drawsnewid cyfreithiau dedfrydu a pholisi cosbi a thrwy ailwladoli ac ailflaenoriaethu prawf ac adsefydlu, y gallwn dorri a lleihau'r galw am leoedd mewn carchardai. Nawr, nid oes llawer o amser gennyf yn weddill, ond hoffwn orffen drwy geisio ailddeall, efallai, beth y mae sgwrs ystyrlon â'r Weinyddiaeth Gyfiawnder yn ei olygu mewn gwirionedd. Nid oeddwn yn ei ddeall o dan y Gweinidog arall ac rwy'n dal i fethu deall beth y mae'n ei olygu. Mae angen eglurhad ar - os mai'r polisi yw peidio â chael rhagor o garchardai yma yng Nghymru, pryd a beth fydd y sgyrsiau ystyrlon hynny â'r Weinyddiaeth Gyfiawnder i newid eich meddwl. Beth sydd ei angen i Lywodraeth Cymru newid eich meddwl ar rai o'r materion allweddol hyn o egwyddor mewn perthynas â'r hyn rydym am ei wneud â dyfodol ein system cyfiawnder troseddol? Os caf yr eglurder hwnnw yma heddiw, byddaf yn falch iawn, ond rwy'n ddiolchgar ein bod yn parhau gyda'r ddadl hon ac y gallwn ymdrin â rhai o'r materion hyn, gobeithio, mewn ffordd flaengar.