English: As you look around Wales, it is obvious that, in this day and age, Wales now has a huge excess of chapels and churches for its current religious needs. What we have seen in response to this overprovision is the closure of many, in an attempt to not only save money, but also to save some of the really magnificent buildings of the same denomination. The upkeep of these remarkable buildings has fallen on the shoulders of the remaining members of the congregation, most of whom vary from the elderly to the very elderly. As one deacon said to me, 'We inherited this chapel from our parents, but our children do not want to inherit it from us.' The same deacon said, 'What I like most about going to chapel is that it's the only place where I, as someone over 60, am considered one of the young members.' The congregations are declining, and you have got to remember how many chapels there still are. According to Blwyddiadur Undeb yr Annibynwyr, there are over 600 independent chapels in Wales and four independent Welsh chapels in England, but that number will almost certainly continue to decline. We have witnessed former chapels being sympathetically adapted or converted for a number of different uses, ranging from flats, which are the most common, to houses, businesses, restaurants, offices, community centres, and, in some cases, converted to places of worship for other religions. Unfortunately, others have become derelict, burned down, or have fallen down. One notable example of a former Swansea chapel that has been sympathetically adapted is the chapel of Christmas Evans, which now hosts the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children Swansea offices, but they allow people to visit and see its plaque commemorating Christmas Evans. It is amazing how many people visit, despite the fact it is not advertised, you have to engage in substantial research to find out where it is, and, after having done that, you have to arrange with the NSPCC to visit. There are people, such as Daniel James - better known as Gwyrosydd - the composer of 'Calon Lân', buried at Mynyddbach chapel, and Evan Roberts, the preacher who led the great revival from Moriah chapel in Loughor. These were just two of the great preachers and hymn writers from Wales. I could fill the whole speech going through famous Welsh hymn writers and - [ Interruption.] More worryingly, I might start mentioning relatives of other Members in here. [ Laughter.] But, as I say, most of the smaller chapels and churches have been sympathetically changed into housing or offices. Within Swansea East, concentrating on Morriston, where I live, and Plasmarl, where I was born, I will take you through the position of the chapels and churches. Philadelphia chapel in Morriston, a former Methodist chapel, has been converted into offices and flats. Calfaria chapel, Soar chapel and Seion merged to form Seion Newydd, which I attend. Calfaria chapel has fallen down. All you can actually see where Calfaria chapel was is stones on the ground, and that was a chapel in use up until 50 years ago. And now all you've got is stones on the ground, at the top of Banwell Street in Morriston. Soar has become a part of the Catholic Church, and is used as a centre for small concerts and events. St John's church, known locally as the church in the middle of the road - it's the only building on the roundabout - is undergoing renovation to become a cafe, gallery and commercial unit on the ground floor and mezzanine floor, with three loft-style flats above it. I used to describe it as the only Welsh-speaking Church in Wales church, but I've apparently been told there are others. But it's one of the very few Welsh-speaking Church in Wales churches in Wales. It's a phenomenal building, but it's been left for 10, 15 years; it's now coming back into use. Grove mission has been turned into flats. Most of the other chapels have been sympathetically turned into flats or houses, or, in the case of one, turned into a care home for people with learning difficulties. Some of these renovations, such as Grove mission, have been excellent, leaving the outer facade and sympathetically remodelling inside. Mynyddbach chapel has been restored after several years of being empty, and is now the Daniel James Gwyrosydd centre. Both the church in Bonymaen and the church in Portmead have been turned into Faith in Families centres, and are doing an excellent job working with parents and children. And can I just say what a good job Faith in Families do in my constituency? This is where the good news ends. Horeb chapel in Morriston was demolished, and a housing association built flats on the site. St Paul's church in Landore has been empty for several years. It is a large church, and whilst there have been several suggestions of use, nothing has happened. Libanus chapel in Cwmbwrla, after being empty for several years, burned down, and was partially demolished on the grounds of safety. It has two walls currently left standing, which of course Cadw still list. Cwm chapel, which was also the scene of a fire, has been demolished, despite being listed by Cadw. Aenon in Heol Las has closed, with no imminent plans for it coming back into an alternative use. The same is true of Bethania in Morriston town centre. Moriah chapel, where my father-in-law was the only remaining deacon, closed, has been sold several times and has planning permission for conversion into flats, but no development has taken place. There are far more chapels and church buildings than there are people wanting to use them for worship. It takes us to what happens next. Now it is mainly the larger churches and chapels that remain. They cannot easily be converted into flats or offices as the smaller ones were. Most are listed, including Tabernacle in Morriston, which is a grade I listed building. The smaller churches and chapels, they've closed. There's no problem. The easy low-lying fruit, the easy changes, that's actually happened. And can I just I say, there's generally been a good job done? Not everywhere, but, in general, a good job done. The action I am asking that the Welsh Government works on with the different denominations in Wales is to discuss the future of these buildings. Cadw listing buildings is not the answer, and sometimes it's part of the problem, in that you cannot make changes to the building, it will sit there until it falls down or is burned down, and far too many buildings end up being burned down when they're left empty for long periods of time. Wales has a huge reputation for its preachers, church and chapel buildings, which is something we need to build on. I think we need to look at the American tourism market; we need to produce denominational tours in Wales. It's not just America, but countries in east Asia, such as Singapore. We have got the situation where New Siloh in Landore, one of the largest nineteenth century chapels, used to sit over 1,000 people, but they were a lot thinner in those days - [ Laughter. ] - so now it only sits about 600. But it has been taken over by a church in Singapore. Prior to being taken over, it had a congregation of seven, but it only had that large congregation because two chapels had merged into it to give it five and two to give it seven. So, the question is: should we in Wales be aiming at the American tourist market? Should we be aiming some of our tourism advertising to promote our great religious history, its people and its buildings? I think there is a huge opportunity to promote tourism relating to our chapels, churches and the great preachers and hymn writers. This is an opportunity that we in Wales need to take before it is too late. We can save some. It is not possible to save them all. I urge the Welsh Government to talk to the different denominations and produce a strategy for the churches and chapels of Wales. Firstly, we need a priority list. Secondly, we need a plan of how buildings can be used in the future - offices, flats and houses are all possible. This will work, as I have illustrated earlier. Turning them into community buildings must be an option. This will need financial support and community buy-in. What we cannot do is leave a large number of elderly people as the sole guardians of our heritage. We protect the castles of our Norman conquerors; we should do the same for the major chapels of what was for many of us our grandparents and great grandparents a place of worship and a major community centre. If this motion is passed and the Government does nothing, or it fails to pass, what will happen is that more and more of these buildings will close. More will become derelict, and a large part of our history will be lost. Now is the time for action. In 10 years' time it will be too late for many of these buildings. Can I also ask for a national museum for our religious history? We've got a wool museum, an industrial and maritime museum, we've got a slate museum. I just think that we ought to be having a museum to carry on and show our religious history, because, although it's been a living history for many of us, in 50 years' time, it won't be the living history for the people then. So, please can I urge the Government to think of that? And if they're looking for a site, can I throw in Tabernacle?
Welsh: Wrth ichi edrych o gwmpas Cymru, mae'n amlwg yn yr oes sydd ohoni fod gan Gymru bellach ormodedd enfawr o gapeli ac eglwysi ar gyfer ei hanghenion crefyddol presennol. Mewn ymateb i'r orddarpariaeth hon, gwelsom gau nifer ohonynt mewn ymgais nid yn unig i arbed arian, ond hefyd i achub rhai o'r adeiladau gwirioneddol wych o'r un enwad. Mae'r gwaith o gynnal a chadw'r adeiladau hynod hyn wedi disgyn ar ysgwyddau yr aelodau sy'n weddill, gyda'r rhan fwyaf ohonynt yn amrywio o fod yn oedrannus i fod yn oedrannus iawn. Fel y dywedodd un diacon wrthyf, 'Fe etifeddom ni'r capel hwn gan ein rhieni, ond nid yw ein plant am ei etifeddu gennym ni.' Dywedodd yr un diacon, 'Yr hyn rwy'n ei hoffi fwyaf am fynd i'r capel yw mai dyma'r unig le rwyf fi, fel rhywun dros 60 oed, yn cael fy ystyried yn un o'r aelodau ifanc.' Mae'r cynulleidfaoedd yn teneuo, a rhaid ichi gofio faint o gapeli sydd i'w cael o hyd. Yn ôl Blwyddiadur Undeb yr Annibynwyr, ceir dros 600 o gapeli annibynwyr yng Nghymru a phedwar capel annibynwyr Cymraeg yn Lloegr, ond bydd y nifer bron yn sicr yn parhau i ostwng. Rydym wedi gweld hen gapeli'n cael eu haddasu neu eu newid mewn modd addas at nifer o wahanol ddibenion, yn amrywio o fflatiau, sef y defnydd mwyaf cyffredin, i dai, busnesau, bwytai, swyddfeydd, canolfannau cymunedol, ac mewn rhai achosion, eu troi'n addoldai ar gyfer crefyddau eraill. Yn anffodus, mae eraill wedi mynd yn adfeilion, wedi'u llosgi i lawr, neu wedi cwympo. Un enghraifft nodedig o hen gapel yn Abertawe sydd wedi'i addasu mewn modd sensitif yw capel Christmas Evans, sydd bellach yn gartref i swyddfeydd y Gymdeithas Genedlaethol er Atal Creulondeb i Blant yn Abertawe, ond maent yn caniatáu i bobl ymweld a gweld ei blac sy'n coffáu Christmas Evans. Mae'n rhyfeddol faint o bobl sy'n ymweld, er nad yw'n cael ei hysbysebu, ac mae'n rhaid ichi wneud cryn dipyn o ymchwil i ganfod y lle, ac ar ôl gwneud hynny, rhaid ichi drefnu gyda'r NSPCC i ymweld. Mae pobl, megis Daniel James - a adwaenir yn well fel Gwyrosydd - cyfansoddwr 'Calon Lân', wedi'i gladdu yng nghapel Mynyddbach, ac Evan Roberts, y pregethwr a arweiniodd yr adfywiad mawr o gapel Moriah yng Nghasllwchwr. Dau yn unig o'r pregethwyr mawr a'r cyfansoddwyr emynau o Gymru oedd y rhain. Gallwn lenwi'r araith gyfan yn mynd drwy gyfansoddwyr emynau enwog o Gymru ac - [ Torri ar draws.] Yn fwy pryderus, efallai y dechreuaf sôn am berthnasau Aelodau eraill yma. [ Chwerthin.] Ond fel y dywedais, mae'r rhan fwyaf o'r capeli a'r eglwysi llai wedi cael eu troi mewn modd addas yn dai neu'n swyddfeydd. Yn Nwyrain Abertawe, gan ganolbwyntio ar Dreforys lle rwy'n byw, a Phlas-marl lle y cefais fy ngeni, af â chi drwy sefyllfa'r capeli a'r eglwysi. Mae capel Philadelphia yn Nhreforys, hen gapel Methodistaidd, wedi'i droi'n swyddfeydd a fflatiau. Unodd capel Calfaria, capel Soar a Seion i ffurfio Seion Newydd, y capel rwy'n ei fynychu. Mae capel Calfaria wedi cwympo. Y cyfan y gallwch ei weld mewn gwirionedd lle'r oedd capel Calfaria yw cerrig ar y ddaear, ac roedd hwnnw'n gapel a gâi ei ddefnyddio hyd at 50 mlynedd yn ôl. A bellach, y cyfan sydd gennych yw cerrig ar y ddaear, ar ben uchaf Stryd Banwell yn Nhreforys. Mae Soar wedi dod yn rhan o'r Eglwys Gatholig, a chaiff ei ddefnyddio fel canolfan ar gyfer cyngherddau a digwyddiadau bach. Mae eglwys Sant Ioan, a adwaenir yn lleol fel yr eglwys yng nghanol y ffordd - dyma'r unig adeilad ar y gylchfan - yn cael ei adnewyddu i fod yn gaffi, oriel ac uned fasnachol ar y llawr gwaelod a'r llawr mesanîn, gyda thri fflat llofft uwch ei ben. Roeddwn i'n arfer ei disgrifio fel yr unig eglwys Gymraeg ei hiaith yn yr Eglwys yng Nghymru, ond cefais wybod bod yna rai eraill. Ond mae'n un o ychydig iawn o eglwysi Cymraeg eu hiaith yr Eglwys yng Nghymru. Mae'n adeilad rhyfeddol, ond bu'n segur ers 10, 15 mlynedd; mae bellach yn cael ei ailddefnyddio. Mae addoldy Grove wedi'i droi'n fflatiau. Mae'r rhan fwyaf o'r capeli eraill wedi cael eu troi mewn modd addas yn fflatiau neu'n dai, neu, yn achos un, yn gartref gofal i bobl ag anawsterau dysgu. Mae peth o'r gwaith adnewyddu, megis addoldy Grove, wedi bod yn rhagorol, gan gadw'r ffasâd allanol ac ailfodelu mewn modd sensitif ar y tu mewn. Mae capel Mynyddbach wedi'i adfer ar ôl sawl blwyddyn o fod yn wag, ac mae bellach yn ganolfan Daniel James Gwyrosydd. Mae'r eglwys ym Môn-y-maen a'r eglwys yn Portmead wedi'u troi'n ganolfannau Ffydd mewn Teuluoedd, ac maent yn gwneud gwaith rhagorol gyda rhieni a phlant. Ac a gaf fi ddweud cystal gwaith y mae Ffydd mewn Teuluoedd yn ei wneud yn fy etholaeth? Dyma lle y daw'r newyddion da i ben. Dymchwelwyd capel Horeb yn Nhreforys, ac adeiladwyd fflatiau ar y safle gan gymdeithas dai. Mae eglwys Sant Paul yng Nglandŵr wedi bod yn wag ers sawl blwyddyn. Mae'n eglwys fawr, ac er y cafwyd sawl awgrym ynglŷn â sut y dylid ei defnyddio, nid oes unrhyw beth wedi digwydd. Cafwyd tân yng nghapel Libanus yng Nghwmbwrla ar ôl iddo fod yn wag am nifer o flynyddoedd, ac fe'i dymchwelwyd yn rhannol ar sail diogelwch. Mae dwy wal yn dal i sefyll ar hyn o bryd, ac wrth gwrs mae Cadw yn dal i'w rhestru. Mae capel Cwm, lleoliad arall lle bu tân, wedi cael ei ddymchwel, er ei fod yn dal wedi'i restru gan Cadw. Mae Aenon yn Heol Las wedi cau, heb unrhyw gynlluniau ar y gorwel i'w ddefnyddio eto at ddibenion gwahanol. Mae'r un peth yn wir am Bethania yng nghanol tref Treforys. Mae capel Moriah, lle roedd fy nhad-yng-nghyfraith yn unig ddiacon ar ôl, bellach wedi cau, mae wedi'i werthu sawl gwaith a cheir caniatâd cynllunio ar gyfer ei droi'n fflatiau, ond nid oes unrhyw ddatblygiad wedi digwydd. Ceir llawer mwy o adeiladau eglwysi a chapeli nag a geir o bobl sydd eisiau eu defnyddio ar gyfer addoli. Mae'n mynd â ni at beth sy'n digwydd nesaf. Erbyn hyn, yr eglwysi a'r capeli mwy o faint yn bennaf sydd ar ôl. Ni ellir troi'r rheini'n fflatiau neu'n swyddfeydd yn hawdd fel y gwnaed i'r rhai llai o faint. Mae'r rhan fwyaf wedi'u rhestru, gan gynnwys y Tabernacl yn Nhreforys, sy'n adeilad rhestredig gradd I. Mae'r eglwysi a'r capeli llai wedi cau. Nid oes problem. Mae'r newidiadau hawdd eisoes wedi digwydd mewn gwirionedd. Ac os caf fi ddweud, yn gyffredinol, mae'r gwaith a wnaed yn dda? Nid ym mhobman, ond yn gyffredinol, fe wnaed gwaith da. Rwy'n gofyn i Lywodraeth Cymru drafod dyfodol yr adeiladau hyn gyda'r gwahanol enwadau yng Nghymru. Nid rhestru adeiladau gan Cadw yw'r ateb, ac weithiau mae'n rhan o'r broblem, gan na allwch wneud newidiadau i'r adeilad; bydd yn eistedd yno hyd nes y bydd yn dymchwel ohono'i hun neu'n cael ei losgi, ac mae llawer gormod o adeiladau'n cael eu llosgi pan gânt eu gadael yn wag am gyfnodau hir. Mae gan Gymru enw da iawn am ei phregethwyr, ei hadeiladau eglwysig a'i chapeli, sy'n rhywbeth y mae angen inni ei ddatblygu. Credaf fod angen inni edrych ar farchnad dwristiaeth America; mae angen inni gynhyrchu teithiau enwadol yng Nghymru. Nid America yn unig, ond gwledydd yn nwyrain Asia, fel Singapore. Mae gennym sefyllfa lle'r arferai Seilo Newydd yng Nglandŵr, un o gapeli mwyaf y bedwaredd ganrif ar bymtheg, fod â lle i dros 1,000 o bobl, ond roeddent yn llawer teneuach yn y dyddiau hynny - [ Chwerthin. ] - felly dim ond lle i tua 600 o bobl sydd yno erbyn hyn. Ond aeth i ddwylo eglwys yn Singapore. Cyn hynny, roedd ganddo saith o aelodau, a hynny ond am fod dau gapel wedi uno i roi pump o un a dau o'r llall i wneud saith. Felly, y cwestiwn yw: a ddylem ni yng Nghymru dargedu marchnad dwristiaeth America? A ddylem dargedu rhai o'n hysbysebion twristiaeth i hyrwyddo ein hanes crefyddol gwych, ei bobl a'i adeiladau? Credaf fod cyfle enfawr i hyrwyddo twristiaeth sy'n gysylltiedig â'n capeli, ein heglwysi a'r pregethwyr mawr a'r cyfansoddwyr emynau. Dyma gyfle y mae angen i ni yng Nghymru fanteisio arno cyn ei bod yn rhy hwyr. Gallwn achub rhai. Nid yw'n bosibl eu hachub i gyd. Rwy'n annog Llywodraeth Cymru i siarad â'r gwahanol enwadau a llunio strategaeth ar gyfer eglwysi a chapeli Cymru. Yn gyntaf, mae angen rhestr o flaenoriaethau. Yn ail, mae angen cynllunio'r modd y gellid defnyddio adeiladau yn y dyfodol - mae swyddfeydd, fflatiau a thai i gyd yn bosibl. Bydd hyn yn gweithio, fel y dangosais yn gynharach. Rhaid cael opsiwn i'w troi'n adeiladau cymunedol. Bydd angen cymorth ariannol a chefnogaeth gymunedol i wneud hyn. Ni allwn adael i nifer fawr o bobl oedrannus fod yn unig warcheidwaid ein treftadaeth. Rydym yn gwarchod cestyll ein goresgynwyr Normanaidd; dylem wneud yr un peth i'r prif gapeli a oedd, i neiniau a theidiau a hen neiniau a hen deidiau llawer ohonom, yn fannau addoli a chanolfannau cymunedol pwysig. Os caiff y cynnig hwn ei basio ac os na wnaiff y Llywodraeth weithredu, neu os na fydd yn pasio, bydd mwy a mwy o'r adeiladau hyn yn cau. Bydd mwy a mwy'n mynd yn adfail, a bydd rhan fawr o'n hanes yn cael ei cholli. Dyma'r amser i weithredu. Ymhen 10 mlynedd fe fydd yn rhy hwyr i lawer o'r adeiladau hyn. A gaf fi ofyn hefyd am amgueddfa genedlaethol ar gyfer ein hanes crefyddol? Mae gennym amgueddfa wlân, amgueddfa ddiwydiannol a morol, mae gennym amgueddfa lechi. Credaf y dylem gael amgueddfa i barhau a dangos ein hanes crefyddol, oherwydd, er ei fod wedi bod yn hanes byw i lawer ohonom, ymhen 50 mlynedd, ni fydd yn hanes byw i'r bobl yr adeg honno. Felly, a gaf fi annog y Llywodraeth i feddwl am hynny? Ac os ydynt yn edrych am safle, a gaf fi awgrymu'r Tabernacl?