English: Thanks to the Conservatives for bringing today's debate. The proposed local government reorganisation - or rather the latest version of it - is a big issue, and it's bound to be controversial. Whatever change a Minister decides to make to the composition of a local council, somebody will complain about it. So, to be fair to the Minister, as I said at the last Minister's questions, whatever he does, it's bound to be controversial, as you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. Or to use another metaphor, you can't smoke the fags without breaking open the fag packet. That said, the Welsh Government have really made a meal of this reorganisation over the past three years. We are on to the third different Minister and the third different plan, although, as Siân Gwenllian pointed out the last time we discussed this, the latest version is not so very different to the original plan, which was Leighton Andrews's model. So, we do have to acknowledge, as the Conservatives are doing with today's motion, that this whole saga has created a lot of uncertainty among the staff who work in local government. In some cases, it can lead to a kind of paralysis, whereby councils can't really plan on a major scale as they have no idea whether they will still exist in a few years' time, and it can also make officer recruitment difficult. Another issue raised by the WLGA is that the latest plan interferes with the regional working that many councils were already pursuing with other bodies and authorities, and I think that this is also a valid point. We also have a lack of clarity over whether the proposed new, larger councils will actually deliver cost benefits, which is the main reason for creating them in the first place. So, in UKIP, we think these are valid points, and we will be supporting the Conservative motion today. Lynne Neagle just spoke about the need for a base of evidence before we undergo any reorganisation, and I think a lot of the points that she made were also very valid. They were also touching on things that Mike Hedges mentioned last time. He reminded us that every time we have a local government reorganisation in Wales, which is roughly every 20 years, we are told that this one is the definitive one, and the reorganisation to end all reorganisations, but this never actually turns out to be the case. We've had the reorganisations in 1974, and again in 1995, and now another one is looming, and after each reorganisation, within a few years, we hear from Government that the councils in Wales are too small and they aren't sustainable. At this rate, we will end up with another reorganisation in 20 years' time, which will leave us with four or five councils. I'm afraid that once you get to that level, you are really moving away from any meaningful sense of people being represented by local ward councillors, and you are merging together areas with no real historic connection and that may be completely different in terms of their economies and their demographics, which is what we are in danger of doing with this current reorganisation. The other point that has been raised, again by Lynne Neagle, is to do with the actual cost benefits, and Mike Hedges also made this point last time. We haven't had any real cost-benefit analysis, so we don't know whether larger councils will actually deliver the savings that the Government is promising. We've already seen mergers of health boards in Wales, and we've ended up with larger bodies, which don't seem to be universally performing particularly well. So, the worst aspect of this local government reorganisation is that it may cause more job losses, deliver fewer services to the public, and still not save any meaningful money in terms of councils' operating costs. We do agree with the Welsh Government that we are consulting on a Green Paper on this, and we agree with them broadly that 22 local councils is not sustainable. So, we actually agree in very broad terms with their amendment. What we do want is more shared working, but we know that there is shared working between different councils going on already. To some extent, this has been driven by financial imperatives because the councils are dealing with reduced budgets, so they have to pursue shared working in order to reduce costs. A potential problem is that shared working is taking different forms. In some areas, two neighbouring councils are working together, in other cases, three or four different councils are pooling resources. And to add to the mix, we now have two city regions in Wales and two other regional areas connected to growth deals. On top of that, we also have strategic development plans coming in that will require another combination of different councils. So, there is a danger that, unless the Welsh Government Minister keeps a firm grip on this, the pattern of local and regional government in Wales could suddenly become very piecemeal, very complex, and for the voter, very confusing. So, the Minister does have a major role to play in guiding local government. However, we would prefer this to include a larger measure of consultation with the affected councils. So, we do agree with the Conservatives; we think they're right to be raising these issues today and we do support their motion. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Welsh: Diolch i'r Ceidwadwyr am gyflwyno'r ddadl heddiw. Mae'r ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol arfaethedig - neu'r fersiwn ddiweddaraf ohono yn hytrach - yn fater pwysig, ac mae'n sicr o fod yn ddadleuol. Bydd rhywun yn cwyno beth bynnag fo'r newid y mae Gweinidog yn penderfynu ei wneud i gyfansoddiad cyngor lleol. Felly, i fod yn deg â'r Gweinidog, fel y dywedais yn ystod y cwestiynau diwethaf i'r Gweinidog, beth bynnag y mae'n ei wneud, mae'n sicr o fod yn ddadleuol, gan na allwch wneud omlet heb dorri wyau. Neu i ddefnyddio trosiad arall, ni allwch ysmygu'r sigaréts heb agor y pecyn sigaréts. Wedi dweud hynny, mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi gwneud môr a mynydd o'r ad-drefnu dros y tair blynedd diwethaf. Rydym ar y trydydd Gweinidog gwahanol a'r trydydd cynllun gwahanol, er nad yw'r fersiwn ddiweddaraf, fel y nododd Siân Gwenllian y tro diwethaf inni drafod hyn, yn wahanol iawn i'r cynllun gwreiddiol, sef model Leighton Andrews. Felly, rhaid inni gydnabod, fel y mae'r Ceidwadwyr yn ei wneud gyda'r cynnig heddiw, fod y saga hon wedi creu llawer o ansicrwydd ymhlith y staff sy'n gweithio mewn llywodraeth leol. Mewn rhai achosion, gall arwain at fath o barlys, lle na all cynghorau gynllunio ar raddfa fawr gan nad oes ganddynt unrhyw syniad a fyddant yn dal i fodoli ymhen ychydig flynyddoedd, a gall wneud recriwtio swyddogion yn anodd. Mater arall a godwyd gan CLlLC yw bod y cynllun diweddaraf yn amharu ar weithio rhanbarthol yr oedd llawer o gynghorau eisoes yn ei wneud gyda chyrff ac awdurdodau eraill, a chredaf fod hwn hefyd yn bwynt dilys. Ceir diffyg eglurder yn ogystal ynglŷn ag i ba raddau y byddai'r cynghorau newydd mwy o faint arfaethedig yn sicrhau budd o ran costau, sef y prif reswm dros eu creu yn y lle cyntaf. Felly, yn UKIP, credwn fod y rhain yn bwyntiau dilys, a byddwn yn cefnogi cynnig y Ceidwadwyr heddiw. Siaradodd Lynne Neagle yn awr am yr angen am sylfaen dystiolaeth cyn inni gael unrhyw ad-drefnu, a chredaf fod llawer o'r pwyntiau a wnaeth yn ddilys iawn hefyd. Roeddent yn cyffwrdd â phethau y soniodd Mike Hedges amdanynt y tro diwethaf. Fe'n hatgoffodd ein bod yn cael clywed, bob tro y cawn ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru, sef bob 20 mlynedd yn fras, mai hwn yw'r un terfynol, yr ad-drefnu i roi diwedd ar bob ad-drefnu, ond nid yw hynny byth yn wir yn y pendraw. Cawsom ad-drefnu yn 1974, ac eto yn 1995, a bellach mae un arall ar y gorwel, ac ar ôl pob ad-drefnu, o fewn ychydig flynyddoedd, clywn gan y Llywodraeth fod y cynghorau yng Nghymru yn rhy fach ac nad ydynt yn gynaliadwy. Os yw hyn yn parhau, bydd yna ad-drefnu arall ymhen 20 mlynedd, a fydd yn ein gadael gyda phedwar neu bump o gynghorau. Pan gyrhaeddwch y lefel honno, mae arnaf ofn eich bod yn symud oddi wrth unrhyw ymdeimlad ystyrlon fod pobl yn cael eu cynrychioli gan gynghorwyr wardiau lleol, ac rydych yn uno ardaloedd heb unrhyw gysylltiad hanesyddol mewn gwirionedd ac sy'n hollol wahanol o ran eu heconomïau a'u demograffeg o bosibl, a dyna rydym mewn perygl o'i wneud gyda'r ad-drefnu presennol hwn. Mae'r pwynt arall a godwyd, unwaith eto gan Lynne Neagle, yn ymwneud â'r budd gwirioneddol o ran costau, a gwnaeth Mike Hedges y pwynt hwn y tro diwethaf hefyd. Nid ydym wedi cael unrhyw ddadansoddiad cost a budd go iawn, felly nid ydym yn gwybod a fydd cynghorau mwy o faint yn cyflawni'r arbedion y mae'r Llywodraeth yn eu haddo mewn gwirionedd. Eisoes rydym wedi gweld byrddau iechyd yng Nghymru yn uno, ac rydym wedi cael cyrff mwy o faint, nad yw'n ymddangos eu bod yn perfformio'n arbennig o dda yn gyffredinol. Felly, yr agwedd waethaf ar yr ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol yw y gall arwain at golli mwy o swyddi, darparu llai o wasanaethau i'r cyhoedd, a dal i fethu arbed unrhyw arian ystyrlon o safbwynt costau gweithredu cynghorau. Rydym yn cytuno â Llywodraeth Cymru ein bod yn ymgynghori ar Bapur Gwyrdd ar hyn, ac rydym yn cytuno â hwy'n fras nad yw 22 o gynghorau lleol yn gynaliadwy. Felly, mewn gwirionedd rydym yn cytuno mewn termau eang iawn â'u gwelliant. Yr hyn rydym ei eisiau yw mwy o weithio ar y cyd, ond gwyddom fod cydweithio rhwng gwahanol gynghorau'n digwydd eisoes. I ryw raddau, cafodd hyn ei ysgogi gan reidrwydd ariannol am fod y cynghorau'n ymdopi â chyllidebau llai, felly rhaid iddynt gydweithio er mwyn lleihau costau. Un broblem bosibl yw bod ffurfiau gwahanol ar weithio ar y cyd. Mewn rhai ardaloedd, mae dau gyngor cyfagos yn gweithio gyda'i gilydd, mewn achosion eraill, mae tri neu bedwar cyngor gwahanol yn cyfuno adnoddau. Ac i ychwanegu at y cymysgedd, mae gennym bellach ddau ddinas-ranbarth yng Nghymru a dwy ardal ranbarthol arall sy'n gysylltiedig â bargeinion twf. Ar ben hynny, mae gennym hefyd gynlluniau datblygu strategol yn dod i mewn a fydd yn galw am gyfuniad arall o wahanol gynghorau. Felly, mae perygl, oni bai bod y Gweinidog Llywodraeth Cymru yn dal ei afael yn gadarn ar hyn, gallai patrwm llywodraeth leol a rhanbarthol yng Nghymru ddatblygu'n sydyn i fod yn dameidiog iawn, yn gymhleth iawn, ac i'r pleidleisiwr, yn ddryslyd iawn. Felly, mae gan y Gweinidog rôl bwysig i'w chwarae yn arwain llywodraeth leol. Fodd bynnag, byddai'n well gennym pe bai hyn yn cynnwys mwy o ymgynghori gyda'r cynghorau yr effeithir arnynt. Felly, rydym yn cytuno gyda'r Ceidwadwyr; credwn eu bod yn iawn i godi'r materion hyn heddiw ac rydym yn cefnogi eu cynnig. Diolch yn fawr iawn.