English: Professor Mark Barry, who was one of our witnesses, and who's a transport expert, told us that Wales has been poorly served by the rail industry ecosystem for the last 30 to 40 years in terms of investment and enhancement funding. That takes us back to roughly 1980, so this is a problem of both Conservative and Labour administrations. However, the current UK Government seems to be very difficult to follow in terms of the logic of any of their arguments. To argue that the £52 billion HS2 investment should not generate any consequential for Wales is really absolute gobbledygook. It makes it very difficult to work out whether or not we're going to be able to have a grown-up relationship with them, because, regardless of that futile argument, they have yet to upgrade the infrastructure on the east-west main rail line. That is of particular concern to the area I represent, because the Burns plan for the south-east Wales metro assumes that two of the four rail lines that run east to west will be the spine of that proposal. The economy Minister was unable to elucidate us in any shape or form yesterday, so I'd be grateful if the Deputy Minister could indicate whether there's been any glimmer of light as to whether the Rishi Sunak Government is taking this issue more seriously. Because it really is a justice issue, as well as something that should be given his attention if he wants to hold the UK together. So, that is absolutely key for me. I think the other issue is around the bus industry. I'm very glad to hear from Janet Finch-Saunders that the Fflecsi buses are working up in north Wales. And that's really helpful, because it could be that that's a model for elsewhere where there's not such a concentration of people. I have to say that the investment that we've managed to secure in Cardiff and Newport for electric buses has hugely improved the air quality of the areas, because they're no longer belching out horrendous diesel. So, that really has been fantastic. Thank you to the Welsh Government, which has empowered local authorities to get on with claiming for what is available from the UK Government. That's something that other local authorities really need to to something more about. In terms of the really serious debate as to how we get people out of their cars and onto public transport, there's obviously a huge amount of work to be done. I heard that, at the seminar that was organised by the public transport organisation that Llyr took part in - I wasn't able to go - somebody suggested that pricing people out of using their cars was a non-starter because they would have to up the costs of running a car by more than £250 before people would stop using their cars and switch to public transport. I have to assume that that figure has well been passed, because insurance has gone up massively and petrol prices have gone up massively. For most people, it must have exceeded that £250. So, that is an opportunity for us, as well as a threat - [ Interruption.] Yes.
Welsh: Dywedodd yr Athro Mark Barry, a oedd yn un o'n tystion, ac sy'n arbenigwr ar drafnidiaeth, fod Cymru heb gael tegwch gan ecosystem y diwydiant rheilffyrdd dros y 30 i 40 mlynedd diwethaf o ran buddsoddiad a chyllid gwella. Mae hynny'n mynd â ni'n ôl i tua 1980, felly mae hon yn broblem a achoswyd gan weinyddiaethau Ceidwadol a Llafur. Ond mae'n ymddangos bod Llywodraeth bresennol y DU yn anodd iawn i'w dilyn o safbwynt rhesymeg unrhyw un o'u dadleuon. Mae dadlau na ddylai'r buddsoddiad HS2 gwerth £52 biliwn greu unrhyw arian canlyniadol i Gymru yn nonsens llwyr. Mae'n ei gwneud yn anodd iawn gweld a ydym yn mynd i allu cael perthynas aeddfed gyda hwy ai peidio, oherwydd, er gwaethaf y ddadl wag honno, maent eto i uwchraddio'r seilwaith ar y brif linell reilffordd o'r dwyrain i'r gorllewin. Mae hynny'n destun pryder arbennig i'r ardal rwy'n ei chynrychioli, gan fod cynllun Burns ar gyfer metro de-ddwyrain Cymru yn rhagdybio mai dwy o'r pedair llinell reilffordd sy'n rhedeg o'r dwyrain i'r gorllewin fydd asgwrn cefn y cynnig hwnnw. Nid oedd Gweinidog yr economi yn gallu ein goleuo mewn unrhyw fodd ddoe, felly byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe bai'r Dirprwy Weinidog yn gallu nodi a fu unrhyw lygedyn o obaith y bydd Llywodraeth Rishi Sunak yn rhoi ystyriaeth fwy difrifol i'r mater. Oherwydd mae'n fater o gyfiawnder mewn gwirionedd, yn ogystal â rhywbeth a ddylai ennyn ei sylw os yw am gadw'r DU gyda'i gilydd. Felly, mae hynny'n gwbl allweddol i mi. Rwy'n credu mai'r mater arall yw'r diwydiant bysiau. Rwy'n falch iawn o glywed gan Janet Finch-Saunders fod bysus Fflecsi yn gweithio i fyny yng ngogledd Cymru. Ac mae hynny'n ddefnyddiol iawn, oherwydd gallai hwnnw fod yn fodel i rywle arall lle nad oes cymaint o grynodiad o bobl. Mae'n rhaid imi ddweud bod y buddsoddiad y llwyddasom i'w sicrhau yng Nghaerdydd a Chasnewydd ar gyfer bysus trydan wedi gwella ansawdd aer yr ardaloedd yn aruthrol, oherwydd nid ydynt yn chwydu diesel erchyll bellach. Felly, mae hynny wedi bod yn wych. Diolch yn fawr iawn i Lywodraeth Cymru, sydd wedi grymuso awdurdodau lleol i fwrw ati i wneud cais am yr hyn sydd ar gael gan Lywodraeth y DU. Mae hynny'n rhywbeth y mae gwir angen i awdurdodau lleol eraill wneud mwy yn ei gylch. Ar y ddadl wirioneddol ddifrifol ynglŷn â sut y cawn bobl allan o'u ceir ac ar drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus, mae'n amlwg fod llawer iawn o waith i'w wneud. Yn y seminar a drefnwyd gan y sefydliad trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus y cymerodd Llyr ran ynddi - ni allwn fynd iddi - clywais fod rhywun wedi awgrymu nad oedd modd prisio pobl allan o ddefnyddio'u ceir oherwydd byddai'n rhaid iddynt godi'r gost o redeg car fwy na £250 cyn y byddai pobl yn rhoi'r gorau i ddefnyddio'u ceir a newid i drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus. Rhaid imi gymryd yn ganiataol fod y ffigur hwnnw gryn dipyn yn uwch bellach, gan fod yswiriant wedi codi'n aruthrol ac mae prisiau petrol wedi codi'n aruthrol. I'r rhan fwyaf o bobl, rhaid ei fod wedi mynd y tu hwnt i £250. Felly, mae hynny'n gyfle i ni, yn ogystal â bygythiad - [ Torri ar draws.] Ie.