English: I'm sorry to come back to this, Cabinet Secretary, but I do think that it's very telling that both the motion and one of the Plaid amendments reflect that the Cabinet Secretary hasn't really embarked on this process in the most politic of ways. Both refer to an inadequate approach to engaging with and influencing current council leaders. I think we all understand the need to take some action on this agenda, but in serving up old hash rather than engaging councils in preparing the menu, you really are starting to lose hope of nourishing those you need to take with you. I'm sure you remember the mess within Labour ranks in Bridgend the last time somebody kindly suggested who they should be teaming up with. There were splits and expulsions, which, of course, while they might have been a little bit of fun for other political parties, were a huge distraction, which damaged the council's authority and soaked up a lot of time when the council could have been doing something useful for its residents. And I don't actually think it was all about self-interest on the part of those who were caught up in the fight. What still lingers there is the feeling that they were pushed into having a fight by proposals that they didn't design, and where opportunities for damage limitation weren't offered in the early stages of policy development. I think a post facto consultation like the one we have now is not really going to allay that resentment. I suspect you're also going to run into difficulties with the existing collaboration models, which have already been mentioned, and the desire for coterminosity. Your Government introduced the regional partnership boards and, at the moment, Western Bay in my region mirrors not just constituency boundaries, more or less, but also Abertawe Bro Morgannwg University Local Health Board's. Moving Bridgend-based hospital care into Cwm Taf, which is as definitely on the cards as it can be, I think, completely throws that coterminosity, but, of course, would restore it if your idea of a merger between Bridgend County Borough Council and Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council goes ahead. A change of local health board responsibility, which was viewed with some understandable anxiety to begin with, has now become a change sparking anger and, again, resentment, because it looks like Welsh Government has jumped the gun by presuming that its version of local government reform will go through. And what's going to happen to those regional partnership boards? I guess there will be some amendments to the Local Government (Democracy) (Wales) Act 2013, but I'm quite keen to find out what you're going to do to the Local Government (Wales) Act 2015 itself. If you remember, it was based on a November 2015 deadline. So, will you be taking this off the statute books as it's otiose now? If there was ever a nonsensical piece of legislation, it was that - imposing deadlines on local authorities only for them not to be met, or, where they were, preferred plans ignored. And Janet Finch-Saunders laid bare that, the glaring faults of that legislation, as it was going through, but it was dismissed out of hand, as were, indeed, the views of council leaders. So, if you're planning, Cabinet Minister, to be a little bit more conciliatory than the Minister at the time, perhaps you could give us an indication of which bits of that Act you will be looking at retaining, because I see some familiar phrases in the Green Paper, but I do urge you to drop the idea of powers to block local authorities designing themselves along the principles of mayoral cabinets. Why should it be Welsh Government who decides that? This place has recently been successful in acquiring the powers to determine its own structures and electoral system, opening up discussion. So, why would Government now consider closing down discussion on what councils, including merged councils, could look like? Two final points, as others have talked more generally about cost - can you tell me whether you will be thrashing out the effects of merger on council tax and council debt before even considering any exercise of Executive power? As the terms of the withdrawal from the EU must be agreed before exit, then so should the terms of merger be agreed before merger of councils - up front, not at secondary legislation stage. And will you tell me also what you've done to ensure that this new wave of uncertainty does not impact one jot on the progress being made by the two city deals that affect my region? Plans for the new Dyfed - and Paul Davies has raised plenty of problems with them already - they're not just completely at odds with coterminosity ambitions, but it places any new merged council in a very difficult position as regards the residents of Ceredigion and their exclusion, at the moment, from the economic uplift for which only Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire councils are contracted. Now, of course, it's always going to be pretty lairy with the council leaders. I think we probably could all have anticipated that, but I am left wondering what has happened to the Alun Davies who, when he was Minister for Welsh language, made great play in this Chamber of how he was all about his low-pressure reasonableness, strewing flowers along the path to enlightenment and bringing local councils to a place of understanding, rather than bringing them to heel, which is what we have now.
Welsh: Mae'n ddrwg gennyf ddychwelyd at hyn, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, ond credaf ei fod yn dweud llawer fod y cynnig ac un o welliannau Plaid Cymru yn adlewyrchu'r ffaith nad yw Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet wedi cychwyn ar y broses hon mewn gwirionedd yn y ffordd fwyaf doeth. Mae'r ddau'n cyfeirio at ddull annigonol o ymgysylltu ag arweinwyr cynghorau presennol a dylanwadu arnynt. Credaf fod pob un ohonom yn deall yr angen i roi rhai camau ar waith ar yr agenda hon, ond drwy weini'r un stwnsh yn hytrach nag ymgysylltu â chynghorau er mwyn paratoi'r fwydlen, rydych yn dechrau anobeithio y gellir maethu'r rhai y mae angen ichi eu perswadio. Rwy'n siŵr eich bod yn cofio'r llanastr yn rhengoedd y Blaid Lafur ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr y tro diwethaf yr awgrymodd rhywun yn garedig pwy y dylent fod yn uno â hwy. Cafwyd rhwygiadau a gwaharddiadau, ac er eu bod yn rhywfaint o hwyl i'r pleidiau gwleidyddol eraill wrth gwrs, roeddent yn ymyriad enfawr a niweidiodd awdurdod y cyngor ac amsugno llawer o amser pan allai'r Cyngor fod yn gwneud rhywbeth defnyddiol ar ran ei drigolion. Ac nid wyf yn credu mewn gwirionedd ei fod yn ymwneud â hunan-fudd ar ran y rhai a gafodd eu dal yn y frwydr. Yr hyn sy'n dal i aros yno yw'r teimlad eu bod wedi cael eu gwthio i ymladd gan gynigion na chafodd eu llunio ganddynt, a lle na chynigiwyd cyfleoedd i liniaru'r difrod yn y camau cynnar o ddatblygu polisi. Credaf nad yw ymgynghoriad post facto fel yr un sydd gennym yn awr yn mynd i dawelu'r dicter hwnnw mewn gwirionedd. Rwy'n amau eich bod hefyd yn mynd i wynebu trafferthion gyda'r modelau cydweithio presennol, sydd eisoes wedi'u crybwyll, a'r dymuniad i weld cydffiniant yn digwydd. Cyflwynodd eich Llywodraeth y byrddau partneriaeth rhanbarthol, ac ar hyn o bryd, mae Bae'r Gorllewin yn fy rhanbarth i yn adlewyrchu nid yn unig ffiniau etholaethau, fwy neu lai, ond ffiniau Bwrdd Iechyd Lleol Abertawe Bro Morgannwg hefyd. Rwy'n credu bod symud gofal ysbyty Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr yn rhan o Gwm Taf, sydd mor bendant yn yr arfaeth ag y gall fod, rwy'n credu, yn cael gwared ar y cydffiniant hwnnw'n llwyr, ond wrth gwrs, byddai'n ei adfer pe bai eich syniad chi o uno rhwng Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr a Chyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf yn mynd rhagddo. Mae newid cyfrifoldeb bwrdd iechyd lleol, y teimlid cryn bryder dealladwy yn ei gylch ar y dechrau, bellach wedi dod yn newid sy'n sbarduno dicter, ynghyd â drwgdeimlad, oherwydd mae'n edrych fel pe bai Llywodraeth Cymru wedi achub y blaen drwy ragdybio y bydd ei fersiwn hi o ddiwygio llywodraeth leol yn cael ei dderbyn. A beth sy'n mynd i ddigwydd i'r byrddau partneriaeth rhanbarthol? Mae'n debyg y bydd rhai gwelliannau i Ddeddf Llywodraeth Leol (Democratiaeth) (Cymru) 2013, ond rwy'n eithaf awyddus i ddarganfod beth rydych yn mynd i'w wneud i Ddeddf Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) 2015 ei hun. Os cofiwch, roedd yn seiliedig ar derfyn amser Tachwedd 2015. Felly, a fyddwch yn tynnu hyn oddi ar y llyfrau statud am ei fod yn ddianghenraid bellach? Os bu erioed ddarn hurt o ddeddfwriaeth, hwn ydoedd - a osodai derfynau amser ar awdurdodau lleol na ellid cadw atynt, neu lle y llwyddwyd i gadw atynt, câi cynlluniau a ffafrid eu hanwybyddu. A nododd Janet Finch-Saunders ddiffygion amlwg y ddeddfwriaeth honno, fel yr oedd yn mynd drwodd, ond cafodd ei gwrthod yn llwyr, fel yn wir y gwrthodwyd safbwyntiau arweinwyr y cynghorau. Felly, Weinidog y Cabinet, os ydych yn bwriadu bod ychydig yn fwy cymodlon na'r Gweinidog ar y pryd, efallai y gallwch roi syniad i ni pa rannau o'r Ddeddf honno y bwriadwch eu cadw, oherwydd gwelaf rai ymadroddion cyfarwydd yn y Papur Gwyrdd, ond rwy'n eich annog i roi'r gorau i'r syniad o bwerau i atal awdurdodau lleol rhag cynllunio eu hunain yn ôl egwyddorion cabinetau meiri. Pam mai Llywodraeth Cymru a ddylai benderfynu hynny? Mae'r lle hwn wedi llwyddo i gael y pwerau'n ddiweddar i bennu ei strwythurau a'i system etholiadol ei hun, gan agor trafodaeth. Felly, pam y byddai'r Llywodraeth bellach yn ystyried cau'r drafodaeth ynghylch sut bethau fydd y cynghorau, gan gynnwys cynghorau a fyddai wedi uno? Dau bwynt i orffen, gan fod pobl eraill wedi siarad yn fwy cyffredinol am gost - a allwch ddweud wrthyf a fyddwch yn trin a thrafod effeithiau uno ar y dreth gyngor a dyledion cynghorau cyn hyd yn oed ystyried arfer pŵer Gweithredol? Fel y mae'n rhaid cytuno ar delerau ymadael â'r UE cyn gadael, dylid cytuno felly ar delerau uno cyn uno cynghorau - ymlaen llaw, nid ar y cam llunio is-ddeddfwriaeth. A allwch ddweud wrthyf hefyd beth rydych wedi'i wneud i sicrhau nad yw'r don newydd hon o ansicrwydd yn effeithio'r un iot ar y cynnydd a wnaed gan y ddwy fargen ddinesig sy'n effeithio ar fy rhanbarth? Cynlluniau ar gyfer y Dyfed newydd - ac mae Paul Davies wedi crybwyll digon o broblemau gyda hwy eisoes - nid yn unig eu bod yn gwbl groes i uchelgeisiau'n ymwneud â chydffiniant, ond maent hefyd yn rhoi unrhyw gyngor cyfunol newydd mewn sefyllfa anodd iawn o ran trigolion Ceredigion a'r ffaith y cânt eu hepgor ar hyn o bryd o'r cynnydd economaidd a gontractiwyd ar gyfer cynghorau Sir Gaerfyrddin a Sir Benfro yn unig. Nawr, wrth gwrs, mae hi bob amser yn mynd i fod yn eithaf trafferthus gydag arweinwyr cynghorau. Rwy'n credu y gallai pawb ohonom fod wedi rhagweld hynny mae'n debyg, ond rwy'n meddwl tybed beth a ddigwyddodd i'r Alun Davies a wnaeth sioe fawr yn y Siambr hon, pan oedd yn Weinidog dros y Gymraeg, ynglŷn â sut yr oedd yn rhesymol a digyffro, yn taenu blodau ar hyd y llwybr i oleuedigaeth ac yn creu dealltwriaeth ymhlith y cynghorau, yn hytrach nag ufudd-dod, sef yr hyn sydd gennym yn awr.