English: It's been a bumpy ride getting to this point, and I think the length of time given to this debate and the number of people speaking in it perhaps raises what is really, as Siân Gwenllian said, a sensible approach above the level of salience with which people in the general public hold it. I think people generally don't feel that strongly about the arrangements of a Parliament. The House of Commons changes its composition regularly, the House of Lords has 771 Members, which is probably about 571 too many, and this debate today is probably longer than required. Perhaps I should just sit down now, but I do want to make my point. [ Laughter.] I thought that would go down well in the Chamber. I do want to make my point, though. I thought the strongest speech I've heard so far has been from Jane Dodds, and she provided a very strong perspective as a member of the committee. It was very odd that the Government and Plaid Cymru presented their view at the point at which they did. I think it would have been better, actually, for the Government and Plaid Cymru to have set out their view a lot earlier, at the very beginning. I think part of the problem is it took Plaid Cymru far too long to come to the co-operation agreement. Seven months after the election, the co-operation agreement was published. That was far, far too long. I think if they were serious about Senedd reform primarily, they would have had that co-operation agreement under way within at least a month of the election. So, I think they have some responsibility for undermining the committee today. I do have some sympathy - [ Interruption.] They don't want to hear it, but it's the truth. I have some sympathy for Darren Millar's position, but I wouldn't vote for the amendment because he resigned from the committee. If he'd stayed on the committee, he could have stayed there to make the point, as Jane Dodds did. With regard to referendums, I've long argued in favour of the reform of this Chamber, I've long argued in favour of more Members, I did before the Senedd election, and I've also argued against referendums. I think referendums represent a failure of democracy. The alternative vote referendum in 2011 had a 42 per cent turnout. People weren't engaged with that. The reason they voted against, and the reason I voted against AV, was nothing to do with AV, it was because of Nick Clegg. Sorry, Jane, but it was against Nick Clegg at the time, the same as my colleague from Blaenau Gwent. [ Interruption.] I will take an intervention. It seems I've only used a minute so far.
Welsh: Mae wedi bod yn daith anodd i gyrraedd y pwynt hwn, a chredaf efallai fod yr amser a roddir i'r ddadl hon a nifer y bobl sy'n siarad ynddi'n codi'r hyn sydd mewn gwirionedd, fel y dywedodd Siân Gwenllian, yn ymagwedd synhwyrol uwchlaw lefel y sylw y mae'r cyhoedd yn gyffredinol yn ei roi iddo. Nid wyf yn credu bod pobl yn gyffredinol yn teimlo mor gryf â hynny am drefniadau Senedd. Mae Tŷ'r Cyffredin yn newid ei gyfansoddiad yn rheolaidd, mae gan Dŷ'r Arglwyddi 771 o Aelodau, sydd tua 571 yn ormod yn ôl pob tebyg, ac mae'n siŵr fod y ddadl hon heddiw yn hirach na'r angen. Efallai y dylwn eistedd yn awr, ond rwyf am wneud fy mhwynt. [ Chwerthin.] Roeddwn yn meddwl y byddai hynny'n mynd i lawr yn dda yn y Siambr. Rwyf am wneud fy mhwynt, serch hynny. Roeddwn yn meddwl mai'r araith gryfaf a glywais hyd yma oedd un Jane Dodds, a rhoddodd bersbectif cryf iawn fel aelod o'r pwyllgor. Roedd yn rhyfedd iawn fod y Llywodraeth a Phlaid Cymru wedi cyflwyno eu barn ar yr adeg y gwnaethant hynny. Credaf y byddai wedi bod yn well, mewn gwirionedd, i'r Llywodraeth a Phlaid Cymru fod wedi nodi eu barn lawer yn gynharach, ar y dechrau. Credaf mai rhan o'r broblem yw ei bod wedi cymryd llawer gormod o amser i Blaid Cymru gyrraedd y cytundeb cydweithio. Saith mis ar ôl yr etholiad, cyhoeddwyd y cytundeb cydweithio. Roedd hynny'n llawer rhy hir. Pe baent o ddifrif ynghylch diwygio'r Senedd yn y lle cyntaf, rwy'n credu y byddent wedi cael y cytundeb cydweithio hwnnw'n weithredol o fewn mis i'r etholiad fan lleiaf. Felly, credaf fod peth cyfrifoldeb arnynt hwy am danseilio'r pwyllgor heddiw. Mae gennyf rywfaint o gydymdeimlad - [ Torri ar draws.] Nid ydynt am ei glywed, ond dyna'r gwir. Mae gennyf rywfaint o gydymdeimlad â safbwynt Darren Millar, ond ni fyddwn yn pleidleisio o blaid y gwelliant gan ei fod wedi ymddiswyddo o'r pwyllgor. Pe bai wedi aros ar y pwyllgor, gallai fod wedi aros yno i wneud y pwynt, fel y gwnaeth Jane Dodds. Mewn perthynas â refferenda, rwyf wedi dadlau ers tro byd o blaid diwygio'r Siambr hon, rwyf wedi dadlau ers tro byd o blaid mwy o Aelodau, gwneuthum hynny cyn etholiad y Senedd, ac rwyf hefyd wedi dadlau yn erbyn refferenda. Credaf mai methiant democratiaeth yw refferenda. Dim ond 42 y cant o bobl a bleidleisiodd yn y refferendwm ar y bleidlais amgen yn 2011. Nid oedd pobl yn teimlo'n rhan o hynny. Y rheswm y gwnaethant bleidleisio yn erbyn, a'r rheswm y pleidleisiais i yn erbyn y bleidlais amgen, oedd oherwydd Nick Clegg, yn hytrach nag unrhyw beth i'w wneud â'r bleidlais amgen. Mae'n ddrwg gennyf, Jane, ond pleidleisio yn erbyn Nick Clegg a wneuthum ar y pryd, yr un fath â fy nghyd-Aelod o Flaenau Gwent. [ Torri ar draws.] Fe wnaf dderbyn ymyriad. Mae'n ymddangos mai dim ond munud a ddefnyddiais hyd yma.