English: It's the misfortunate of somebody who comes this low in the proceedings that most of the intelligent questions have been asked already, but I'll try and till a new furrow. I broadly welcome the statement from the Cabinet Secretary, although I must say some of the language doesn't seem to bear the normal professorial detachment with which the Cabinet Secretary has added so much lustre to the various offices that he has held. I don't know whether, in particular, the bottom line on page 1, which refers to the 'dog-eat-dog economy of the neo-liberal imagination' was specifically directed at me, but I'd like to assure him that there is nothing 'neo' about me - [Interruption.] - nothing 'neo' about me at all. As my exact contemporary, Jeremy Corbyn - we were elected to Parliament on the same day, the same age - [Interruption.] I, at least, have advanced in my station to the Welsh Assembly, to respond to the interruption by David Rees. Just as he is a paleosocialist, I suppose I'm a paleoliberal conservative, in financial and economic terms at least. But I'd like to raise what I think is going to be a growingly important issue in Wales. I've just read an HMRC publication called 'A disaggregation of HMRC tax receipts between England, Wales, Scotland & Northern Ireland'. Table 4 of that provides statistics for what I think is a very disturbing trend - that, since the year 2003-04, in almost every year, the proportion of income tax receipts as a proportion of the total UK tax receipts has declined, year in and year out, which seems to imply that Wales is falling backwards in terms of income, nationally, relative to other parts of the United Kingdom. Therefore, although I am strongly in favour, personally, of the devolution of income tax and other taxes as well, given that we also have a reduction in the block grant from Whitehall as a consequence, there is a danger, unless we reverse this trend, that we are going to find that we are squeezed more and more, year in, year out, and, therefore, to develop a theme that Adam Price very often raises in this Chamber, what can we do to raise GVA relative to other parts of the UK in Wales? It seems to me that giving us the opportunity to compete in terms of taxation with other parts of the national jurisdiction is one means by which we can do that - by attracting more business into Wales to produce more wealth that can then be taxed. As has been pointed out in the statement, paying taxes is of course a badge of admission to a civilised society, although I'd be far from implying a direct relationship, and certainly I don't take the opposite view that a high-tax jurisdiction is a more civilised society by definition. There are plenty of examples that we could cite to disprove that hypothesis. But taxes do affect behaviour. That is indisputable, and indeed is referred to in the framework document published by the Welsh Government itself. I don't think that it actually adds to a sober analysis of the impact of taxation upon income and the generation of wealth to use the kind of 'Tom and Jerry' language of 'dog-eat-dog' that the Cabinet Secretary has used in this statement. In fact, although Mike Hedges referred in the course of his contribution to the United States, the United States is a relatively high-tax jurisdiction, especially if you take into account the combination of federal, state and local taxes. Ernst and Young have done a very interesting analysis of the American tax system in relation to the tax systems elsewhere, and the macro-economic effects of these high tax rates. They say, for example, that the high US corporation tax rate is beginning to have significant adverse economic consequences for the US economy and American workers, and suggest that the reform of the US corporation tax that includes a significant reduction of the rate would likely provide important economic benefits to the United States. Well, I would say that that's true in spades of Wales. Of course, corporation tax is not a devolved tax, and I think it would be a very good thing if, as the Holtham commission recommended, it were devolved to Wales, because it would give us the opportunity to attract more private investment into Wales, on the back of which we could then have, not just a higher GVA for the whole country, but a bigger tax base for the Welsh Government, which we could spend on all the things that we would like to spend money on but which we can't now afford. I know that the Cabinet Secretary has disparaged what he thinks are my views in relation to what he described in our last exchange as the Laffer curve, but, when we consider the experience of the Irish Republic, and in particular in relation to corporation tax, they have a corporation tax rate of 12.5 per cent, but they have a special 6.25 per cent corporation tax rate in relation to what they call the knowledge development box, that is, for genuine innovators employing highly skilled people. It seems to me that Wales has a far too high proportion of income created by the public sector. We need to increase the proportion that is generated by private enterprise, and if we deny ourselves the opportunity to use the tax system in order to encourage that then I think we're stabbing ourselves in the back. If we take the party political badinage out of this, there is a mass of empirical evidence to show that, whilst there isn't a direct relationship, obviously, between particular tax rates and economic growth or wealth in a society, there is, as the Cabinet Secretary will readily admit, a connection of some kind between the two, and lower taxes generally tend to produce higher GVA. After all, take the logical extreme of this, Singapore: it's one of the wealthiest countries in the world with almost no natural resources and the lowest tax rates. So, that says nothing, of course, about the distribution of income in Singapore, but, nevertheless, the economy of the country and the wealth that it now enjoys, compared with the situation 20 to 30 years ago, speaks for itself. So, I would just like to make that plea to the Cabinet Secondary to be perhaps a little more flexible in his thinking about this issue.
Welsh: Anffawd rhywun sy'n dod mor isel â hyn yn y trafodion yw bod y rhan fwyaf o'r cwestiynau deallus wedi cael eu gofyn yn barod, ond rwy'n mynd i geisio torri cwys newydd. Rwy'n croesawu'r datganiad gan Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet yn fras, er bod rhaid imi ddweud nad yw'n ymddangos bod gan rywfaint o'r iaith y datodiad athrawol arferol y mae Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet wedi ei ddefnyddio i ychwanegu cymaint o lewyrch i'r gwahanol swyddi a fu ganddo. Nid wyf yn gwybod, yn benodol, a oedd y llinell olaf ar dudalen 1, sy'n cyfeirio at 'economi ddidrugaredd y dychymyg neo-ryddfrydol' wedi'i chyfeirio'n benodol ataf fi, ond hoffwn ei sicrhau nad oes dim byd 'neo' amdanaf fi - [Torri ar draws.] - dim byd 'neo' amdanaf fi o gwbl. Fel fy nghyfoeswr union, Jeremy Corbyn - cawsom ein hethol i'r Senedd ar yr un diwrnod, yr un oed - [Torri ar draws.] Rwyf fi, o leiaf, wedi cyrraedd Cynulliad Cymru, i ymateb i'r ymyrraeth gan David Rees. Yn union fel y mae ef yn baleososialydd, mae'n debyg fy mod i'n geidwadwr paleoryddfrydol, mewn termau ariannol ac economaidd o leiaf. Ond hoffwn i godi mater yr wyf yn meddwl ei fod yn mynd i fod yn bwysicach a phwysicach yng Nghymru. Rwyf newydd ddarllen cyhoeddiad gan Gyllid a Thollau EM o'r enw 'Datgrynhoi derbyniadau treth Cyllid a Thollau EM rhwng Cymru, Lloegr, yr Alban a Gogledd Iwerddon'. Mae Tabl 4 yn hwnnw'n darparu ystadegau ar gyfer tuedd yr wyf i o'r farn ei bod yn annymunol dros ben - sef, ers y flwyddyn 2003-04, ym mron bob blwyddyn, bod cyfran derbyniadau treth incwm fel cyfran o gyfanswm derbyniadau treth y DU wedi gostwng, flwyddyn ar ôl blwyddyn, sy'n ymddangos i awgrymu bod Cymru'n disgyn yn ôl o ran incwm, yn genedlaethol, o gymharu â rhannau eraill o'r Deyrnas Unedig. Felly, er fy mod yn gryf o blaid, yn bersonol, datganoli treth incwm a threthi eraill hefyd, o gofio ein bod hefyd yn cael gostyngiad yn y grant bloc gan Whitehall o ganlyniad, y perygl yw, oni bai ein bod yn gwrthdroi'r duedd hon, y byddwn yn gweld ein bod yn cael ein gwasgu fwy a mwy, flwyddyn ar ôl blwyddyn, ac, felly, i ddatblygu thema y mae Adam Price yn aml iawn yn ei chodi yn y Siambr hon, beth y gallwn ei wneud i godi GYC yn gymharol â rhannau eraill o'r DU yng Nghymru? Mae'n ymddangos i mi bod rhoi'r cyfle inni i gystadlu o ran trethu â rhannau eraill o'r awdurdodaeth genedlaethol yn un ffordd y gallwn wneud hynny - drwy ddenu mwy o fusnes i Gymru i gynhyrchu mwy o gyfoeth y gellir wedyn ei drethu. Fel y nodwyd yn y datganiad, mae talu trethi, wrth gwrs, yn docyn mynediad i gymdeithas wâr, er y byddwn i'n bell o awgrymu perthynas uniongyrchol, ac yn sicr nid wyf yn cytuno â'r farn gyferbyn bod awdurdodaeth â threthi uchel yn gymdeithas fwy gwaraidd drwy ddiffiniad. Mae digon o enghreifftiau y gallem eu dyfynnu i wrthbrofi'r rhagdybiaeth honno. Ond mae trethi'n effeithio ar ymddygiad. Mae hynny'n ddiamheuol, ac yn wir mae'r ddogfen fframwaith a gyhoeddwyd gan Lywodraeth Cymru ei hun yn cyfeirio at hynny. Nid wyf yn meddwl ei fod wir yn ychwanegu dim at ddadansoddiad sobr o effaith trethiant ar incwm a chynhyrchu cyfoeth i ddefnyddio iaith fel 'didrugaredd' fel y mae Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet wedi'i wneud yn y datganiad hwn. Yn wir, er bod Mike Hedges wedi cyfeirio yn ystod ei gyfraniad at yr Unol Daleithiau, mae'r Unol Daleithiau'n awdurdodaeth â threthi cymharol uchel, yn enwedig os ydych chi'n ystyried y cyfuniad o drethi ffederal, trethi taleithiau a threthi lleol. Mae Ernst ac Young wedi gwneud dadansoddiad diddorol iawn o system dreth America o'i chymharu â'r systemau treth mewn mannau eraill, ac effeithiau macro-economaidd y cyfraddau treth uchel hyn. Maent yn dweud, er enghraifft, bod cyfradd uchel y dreth gorfforaeth yn yr Unol Daleithiau yn dechrau achosi canlyniadau economaidd andwyol sylweddol i economi'r Unol Daleithiau a gweithwyr Americanaidd, ac yn awgrymu y byddai diwygio treth gorfforaeth yr Unol Daleithiau i gynnwys gostwng y dreth yn sylweddol yn debygol o greu buddion economaidd pwysig i'r Unol Daleithiau. Wel, byddwn yn dweud bod hynny'n wir i raddau helaeth am Gymru. Wrth gwrs, nid yw'r dreth gorfforaeth yn dreth ddatganoledig, ac rwy'n meddwl y byddai'n beth da iawn, fel yr argymhellodd comisiwn Holtham, pe bai'n cael ei datganoli i Gymru, gan y byddai'n rhoi'r cyfle inni ddenu mwy o fuddsoddiad preifat i Gymru, ac yna gallem sicrhau, nid dim ond GYC uwch ar gyfer y wlad gyfan, ond sylfaen dreth fwy i Lywodraeth Cymru, y gallem ei gwario ar yr holl bethau yr hoffem wario arian arnynt, ond na allwn eu fforddio ar hyn o bryd. Rwy'n gwybod bod Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet wedi dibrisio yr hyn y mae'n meddwl yw fy marn i ynglŷn â'r hyn a ddisgrifiodd yn ein sgwrs ddiwethaf fel cromlin Laffer, ond, pan fyddwn yn ystyried profiad Gweriniaeth Iwerddon, ac yn enwedig o ran treth gorfforaeth, mae ganddynt gyfradd treth gorfforaeth o 12.5 y cant, ond mae ganddynt gyfradd treth gorfforaeth arbennig 6.25 y cant ar gyfer yr hyn y maent yn ei alw'n flwch datblygu gwybodaeth, hynny yw, ar gyfer gwir arloeswyr sy'n cyflogi pobl â llawer o sgiliau. Mae'n ymddangos i mi bod cyfran lawer rhy uchel o incwm Cymru'n cael ei chreu gan y sector cyhoeddus. Mae angen inni gynyddu'r gyfran sy'n cael ei chynhyrchu gan fentrau preifat, ac os ydym ni'n gwrthod achub ar y cyfle i ddefnyddio'r system dreth er mwyn annog hynny, rwy'n credu ein bod yn gwneud cam â'n hunain. Os cawn ni wneud hyn heb yr herian pleidiol, mae llawer o dystiolaeth empirig i ddangos, er nad oes perthynas uniongyrchol, yn amlwg, rhwng cyfraddau treth penodol a thwf economaidd neu gyfoeth mewn cymdeithas, mae yna, fel y bydd Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet yn hapus i'w gyfaddef, gysylltiad o ryw fath rhwng y ddau, ac mae trethi is yn gyffredinol yn tueddu i gynhyrchu GYC uwch. Wedi'r cyfan, ystyriwch yr esiampl eithafol resymegol o hyn, sef Singapore: mae'n un o'r gwledydd cyfoethocaf yn y byd heb bron ddim adnoddau naturiol a'r cyfraddau treth isaf. Felly, dydy hynny'n dweud dim, wrth gwrs, am ddosbarthiad incwm yn Singapore, ond, serch hynny, mae economi'r wlad a'r cyfoeth y mae'n ei fwynhau nawr, o'i gymharu â'r sefyllfa 20 i 30 mlynedd yn ôl, yn siarad drosto'i hun. Felly, hoffwn wneud y ple hwnnw i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet efallai i feddwl ychydig yn fwy hyblyg am y mater hwn.