techiaith/cofnodycynulliad_en-cy huggingface dataset:
English: However you want to spin it, there will always be a perceived conflict of interest when the body that is most needed to stand up for the patients - in other words, be critical, where necessary, of the running of the service - is directly appointed by the Minister. This is one of the other key reasons why we cannot support this Bill. We know, at least in parts of Wales, the community health council has been prepared to stand up for patients and be critical of the service. Look at the work being done by the CHC in the north currently in relation to decisions taken on vascular. We remain extremely concerned that the consequence of this Bill will be to remove a vitally important layer of scrutiny within our health and care system.
Welsh: Pa ffordd bynnag yr ydych chi eisiau ei ddehongli, fe fydd tybiaeth o hyd o wrthdaro buddiannau pan gaiff y corff y mae ei angen fwyaf i sefyll o blaid y cleifion - mewn geiriau eraill, i fod yn feirniadol, pan fo angen, o'r ffordd y caiff y gwasanaeth ei redeg - ei benodi'n uniongyrchol gan y Gweinidog. Dyma un o'r rhesymau allweddol eraill pam na allwn ni gefnogi'r Bil hwn. Gwyddom, mewn rhannau o Gymru o leiaf, fod y cyngor iechyd cymuned wedi bod yn barod i sefyll o blaid cleifion a bod yn feirniadol o'r gwasanaeth. Edrychwch ar y gwaith sy'n cael ei wneud gan y cyngor yn y gogledd ar hyn o bryd o ran penderfyniadau a wneir ar faterion fasgwlaidd. Rydym yn parhau'n bryderus iawn mai canlyniad y Bil hwn fydd dileu haen hanfodol bwysig o graffu o fewn ein system iechyd a gofal.
English: While I cannot support the lead amendment in this group, I have some sympathy with what the Minister is seeking to do. However, I believe that this place, not Welsh Ministers, is best placed to appoint members to the citizen voice body. I therefore choose to support Angela's amendments. The citizen voice body is one of the most important parts of this legislation. I never supported replacing the community health councils, but we are where we are. It is vital that this legislation results in a body that is a true champion of patients in health and social care. I do not believe that giving Ministers the ability to hire and fire sits right with the fact that the citizen voice body will need to challenge ministerial decisions as much as those by health and social care bodies, and therefore conclude that this is a conflict of interest. An independent patient's voice body needs to be free from any perceived or actual interference from Government. That includes hiring and firing, and I therefore reject amendments 5, 7, 8, 9 and 10. We will, however, be supporting the majority of the other amendments in this group. Diolch yn fawr.
Welsh: Er na allaf gefnogi'r prif welliant yn y grŵp hwn, mae gennyf rywfaint o gydymdeimlad â'r hyn y mae'r Gweinidog yn ceisio'i wneud. Fodd bynnag, credaf mai'r lle hwn, nid Gweinidogion Cymru, sydd yn y sefyllfa orau i benodi aelodau i gorff llais y dinesydd. Felly, rwyf yn dewis cefnogi gwelliannau Angela. Corff llais y dinesydd yw un o rannau pwysicaf y ddeddfwriaeth hon. Nid oeddwn erioed yn cefnogi disodli'r cynghorau iechyd cymuned, ond rydym yn y sefyllfa sydd ohoni. Mae'n hanfodol, yn sgil y ddeddfwriaeth hon y ceir corff sy'n wirioneddol gefnogi cleifion mewn iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol. Ni chredaf fod rhoi'r gallu i Weinidogion benodi a diswyddo yn cyd-fynd â'r ffaith y bydd angen i gorff llais y dinesydd herio penderfyniadau Gweinidogion gymaint â rhai y cyrff iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol, ac felly rwy'n dod i'r casgliad fod hwn yn enghraifft o wrthdaro buddiannau. Mae angen i gorff annibynnol sy'n llais i gleifion fod yn rhydd o unrhyw ymyrraeth dybiedig neu wirioneddol gan y Llywodraeth. Mae hynny'n cynnwys penodi a diswyddo, ac rwyf felly'n gwrthod gwelliannau 5, 7, 8, 9 a 10. Fodd bynnag, byddwn yn cefnogi'r rhan fwyaf o'r gwelliannau eraill yn y grŵp hwn. Diolch yn fawr.
English: I'd just like to make the point that the Welsh Conservatives have argued for a very long time that all of our commissioners should be appointed by the National Assembly for Wales.
Welsh: Hoffwn wneud y pwynt fod y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig wedi dadlau ers amser maith y dylai pob un o'n comisiynwyr gael eu penodi gan Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru.
English: We're talking here about what happens when people argue about the appointments process at the start, and then the reality of it. Every one of those people who've held those commissioner roles have not felt constrained in their independence.
Welsh: Rydym ni'n sôn yma am yr hyn sy'n digwydd pan fydd pobl yn dadlau ynghylch y broses benodi ar y dechrau, ac yna realiti'r peth. Nid yw unrhyw un o'r bobl hynny sydd wedi bod yn y swyddi comisiynydd hynny wedi teimlo y cawsant eu cyfyngu o ran eu hannibyniaeth.
English: There is a case to be made, and you make it strongly, but commissioners and organisations like the new citizen voice body are there on scrutiny and accountability - naturally, the legislative side, because that's our role as well as legislating, to hold the executive to account. What you are doing by having, nominally, these appointments, is putting them firmly on the executive side, at least in their formal set-up, even if that isn't their working practice, and that really isn't elegant. We should respect the division of powers and have a better structure than the one you're proposing.
Welsh: Mae modd dadlau, ac rydych chi'n gwneud hynny yn gryf, ond mae comisiynwyr a sefydliadau fel y corff newydd llais y dinesydd yn destun craffu ac atebolrwydd - yn naturiol, o ran yr ochr ddeddfwriaethol, oherwydd dyna ein swyddogaeth ni yn ogystal â deddfu, i ddwyn y weithrediaeth i gyfrif. Yr hyn yr ydych yn ei wneud drwy gael y penodiadau hyn, mewn enw, yw eu gwneud yn benodiadau gweithredol pendant, o leiaf yn eu trefn ffurfiol, hyd yn oed os nad felly y byddant yn gweithio, ac nid yw hynny'n weddus o gwbl. Dylem barchu sut mae pwerau wedi eu rhannu a chael gwell strwythur na'r un yr ydych chi'n ei gynnig.
English: There's a fairly straightforward disagreement about whether the Assembly or, indeed, the Government should be the ultimate appointer of these people, but I don't accept that the practice of the way that we have run public appointments through Wales in the last 20 years, or indeed a range of posts, actually holds water for the argument that this would somehow undermine the independence of people in those roles. I'll take an intervention and then I'll complete.
Welsh: Mae anghytundeb eithaf syml ynghylch pa un ai'r Cynulliad ynteu, yn wir, y Llywodraeth a ddylai fod yn penodi'r bobl hyn yn y pen draw, ond nid wyf yn derbyn bod y ffordd yr ydym wedi penodi pobl i swyddogaethau cyhoeddus drwy Gymru yn ystod yr 20 mlynedd diwethaf, neu yn wir i ystod o swyddi, yn dal dŵr o ran y ddadl y byddai hyn rywsut yn tanseilio annibyniaeth y bobl yn y swyddi hynny. Byddaf yn derbyn ymyriad ac yna byddaf yn dod i ben.
English: Just to remind you of the words that I used in my contribution - however these bodies or individuals or commissioners act, I said that there is a clear perception of a conflict of interest, and that, too, is very important when we're trying to build trust with the electorate.
Welsh: Er mwyn eich atgoffa o'r geiriau a ddefnyddiais yn fy nghyfraniad - sut bynnag y mae'r cyrff neu'r unigolion neu'r comisiynwyr hyn yn gweithredu, dywedais fod canfyddiad clir o wrthdaro buddiannau, a bod hynny, hefyd, yn bwysig iawn pan rydym yn ceisio meithrin ymddiriedaeth yr etholwyr.
English: I think this is quite an extraordinary point. You say that there's a conflict of interest for new arrangements and an entirely separate body, but you're prepared to fight for a current position where those people are employees of the national health service. That, to me, is not a position that holds any kind of logical argument to it at all. I recognise that we don't agree in terms of the Government and opposition parties. I would ask Members to support the Government in the new process that we've introduced and to reflect the fact that the current community health council movement themselves recognise that there is significantly more independence and freedom of discretion in the Bill, as we provided in the amendments before you that I ask you to support today.
Welsh: Rwy'n credu bod hwn yn bwynt anhygoel. Rydych yn dweud bod gwrthdaro buddiannau ar gyfer trefniadau newydd a chorff cwbl ar wahân, ond rydych chi'n barod i frwydro dros y sefyllfa bresennol lle mae'r bobl hynny'n cael eu cyflogi gan y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol. Nid yw hynny, i mi, yn safbwynt sydd ag unrhyw fath o ddadl resymegol drosto o gwbl. Rwy'n cydnabod nad ydym yn cytuno o ran y Llywodraeth a gwrthbleidiau. Gofynnaf i'r Aelodau gefnogi'r Llywodraeth yn y broses newydd a gyflwynwyd gennym ac i nodi'r ffaith bod mudiad presennol y cynghorau iechyd cymuned eu hunain yn cydnabod bod llawer mwy o annibyniaeth a rhyddid gweithredu yn y Bil, fel y darparwyd yn y gwelliannau ger eich bron y gofynnaf ichi eu cefnogi heddiw.
English: We'll vote, therefore, on amendment 5. If amendment 5 is agreed, amendment 48 falls. If amendment 5 is not agreed, amendment 14 falls. The question is that amendment 5 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [ Objection.] We therefore proceed to a vote on amendment 5. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 28, no abstentions, 22 against. Therefore amendment 5 is agreed and amendment 48 falls.
Welsh: Rŷn ni'n pleidleisio felly ar welliant 5. Os derbynnir gwelliant 5, bydd gwelliant 48 yn methu. Os gwrthodir gwelliant 5, bydd gwelliant 14 yn methu. Y cwestiwn yw y dylid derbyn gwelliant 5. A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? [ Gwrthwynebiad. ] Rŷn ni'n symud felly i bleidlais ar welliant 5. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 28, neb yn ymatal, 22 yn erbyn. Felly, derbyniwyd gwelliant 5 ac mae gwelliant 48 yn methu.
English: Amendment 6 is the next amendment, which is to be moved by the Minister.
Welsh: Gwelliant 6 yw'r gwelliant nesaf. Ydy o'n cael ei symud gan y Gweinidog?
English: Formally being moved?
Welsh: Yn cael ei gynnig yn ffurfiol?
English: Yes, it is.
Welsh: Ydy, mae o.
English: The question is that amendment 6 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [ Objection.] We therefore proceed to a vote on amendment 65. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 38, no abstentions, 12 against. Therefore, amendment 6 is agreed.
Welsh: Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 6? A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad? [ Gwrthwynebiad.] Rŷn ni'n symud i bleidlais ar welliant 6. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 38, neb yn ymatal, 12 yn erbyn. Ac felly, derbyniwyd gwelliant 6.
English: Amendment 7 is the next amendment. Minister.
Welsh: Gwelliant 7 yw'r gwelliant nesaf. Gweinidog.
English: The question is that amendment 7 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [ Objection.] We therefore proceed to a vote on amendment 7. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 34, five abstentions, 11 against. Therefore, amendment 7 is agreed.
Welsh: Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 7? A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad? [ Gwrthwynebiad. ] Felly, rŷm ni'n symud i bleidlais ar welliant 7. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 34, pump yn ymatal, 11 yn erbyn. Ac felly, mae gwelliant 7 wedi ei dderbyn.
English: If amendment 8 is agreed, amendment 49 falls. The question is that amendment 8 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [ Objection.] We therefore proceed to a vote on amendment 8. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 28, no abstentions, 22 against. Therefore, amendment 8 is agreed to and amendment 49 falls.
Welsh: Os derbynnir gwelliant 8, bydd gwelliant 49 yn methu. Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 8? A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad? [ Gwrthwynebiad.] Felly, rŷn ni'n symud i bleidlais ar welliant 8. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 28, neb yn ymatal, 22 yn erbyn. Ac felly, derbyniwyd gwelliant 8. Mae gwelliant 49, felly, yn methu.
English: If amendment 9 is agreed, amendments 50, 51 and 52 will fall. The question is that amendment 9 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [ Objection.] We therefore proceed to a vote on amendment 9. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 28, no abstentions, 22 against. Therefore amendment 9 is agreed and therefore amendments 50, 51 and 52 fall.
Welsh: Os derbynnir gwelliant 9, bydd gwelliannau 50, 51 a 52 yn methu. Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 9? A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad? [ Gwrthwynebiad.] Felly, rŷn ni'n symud i'r bleidlais ar welliant 9. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 28, neb yn ymatal, 22 yn erbyn. Derbyniwyd gwelliant 9, ac felly mae gwelliannau 50, 51 a 52 wedi methu.
English: If amendment 10 is agreed, amendment 53 falls. The question is that amendment 10 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [ Objection.] Open the vote on amendment 10. Close the vote. In favour 27, no abstentions, 21 against. Therefore, amendment 10 is agreed. Amendment 53 falls.
Welsh: Os derbynnir gwelliant 10, bydd gwelliant 53 yn methu. Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 10? A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad? [ Gwrthwynebiad.] Felly, agor pleidlais ar welliant 10. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 27, neb yn ymatal, 21 yn erbyn. Ac felly, derbyniwyd gwelliant 10. Mae gwelliant 53 yn methu.
English: Therefore, we move to amendment 11, Minister.
Welsh: Felly, gwelliant 11, Gweinidog.
English: The question is that amendment 11 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [ Objection.] We therefore proceed to a vote on amendment 11. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 38, one abstention, 11 against. Therefore, amendment 11 is agreed.
Welsh: Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 11? A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad? [ Gwrthwynebiad.] Rŷn ni'n symud felly i bleidlais ar welliant 11. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 38, un yn ymatal, 11 yn erbyn. Ac felly, derbyniwyd gwelliant 11.
English: The question is that amendment 12 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [ Objection.] We therefore proceed to a vote on amendment 12. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 38, one abstention, 11 against. Therefore amendment 12 is agreed.
Welsh: Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 12? A oes gwrthwynebiad? [ Gwrthwynebiad.] Rŷn ni'n symud i bleidlais felly ar welliant 12. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 38, un yn ymatal, 11 yn erbyn. Ac felly, derbyniwyd gwelliant 12.
English: The question is that amendment 54 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [ Objection. ] We therefore proceed to a vote on amendment 54 in the name of Angela Burns. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 22, no abstentions, 28 against. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.
Welsh: Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 54? A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad? [ Gwrthwynebiad.] Rŷn ni'n symud felly i bleidlais ar welliant 54 yn enw Angela Burns. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 22, neb yn ymatal, 28 yn erbyn. Ac, felly, mae'r gwelliant wedi ei wrthod.
English: The question is that amendment 56 be agreed. Does any Member object? [ Objection.] We therefore proceed to a vote on amendment 56 in the name of Angela Burns. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 21, no abstentions, 29 against. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.
Welsh: Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 56? Unrhyw wrthwynebiad? [ Gwrthwynebiad. ] Rŷn ni'n symud i bleidlais felly ar welliant 56 yn enw Angela Burns. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 21, neb yn ymatal, 29 yn erbyn. Felly, gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
English: Group 10 is the next group of amendments relating to indemnity cover for volunteers and staff of the citizen voice body. Amendment 55 is the only amendment in the group, and I call on Angela Burns to move the amendment. Angela Burns.
Welsh: Grŵp 10 yw'r grŵp nesaf o welliannau sydd yn ymwneud â sicrwydd indemniad ar gyfer gwirfoddolwyr a staff corff llais y dinesydd. Gwelliant 55 yw'r unig welliant yn y grŵp, a dwi'n galw ar Angela Burns i gynnig y gwelliant. Angela Burns.
English: Just a few words to say that we will support this amendment. I do believe that it's crucial, if we are to attract people to give of their time to work in areas such as this, for the benefit of the public, that they have the necessary support to do that. It's clear to us that it's important that both staff and volunteers should have the appropriate legal cover for being involved in these activities.
Welsh: Dim ond mewn brawddeg, i ddweud y byddwn ni'n cefnogi'r gwelliant yma. Dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n allweddol, os ydym ni am dynnu pobl i mewn i roi eu hamser i weithio mewn meysydd fel hyn, er budd y cyhoedd, eu bod nhw'n cael y gefnogaeth i wneud hynny. Ac mae hi'n glir i ni ei bod hi'n bwysig y dylai staff a gwirfoddolwyr fel ei gilydd gael y cover cyfreithiol priodol ar gyfer ymwneud â'u gweithgareddau.
English: I just have a real problem with your rejection of this amendment, Minister. What we're asking is we are asking volunteers, people who may have some experience of dealing with large organisations, to come and volunteer for the citizen voice body, and to speak on behalf of the citizens they represent. If you were to boil it down into a different way of saying it, they are speaking truth to power. They need to be protected. And I really ask, Minister, that you change your mind. Truth to power puts you in a very vulnerable position. We're asking them to speak truth to power. They're not as big, they're not as tough, they're not necessarily as experienced as who they're speaking to. Truth to power is something that we should protect at all cost. Please vote for this amendment.
Welsh: Mae'r ffaith eich bod yn gwrthod y gwelliant hwn, Gweinidog yn broblem fawr imi. Yr hyn yr ydym yn ei ofyn yw, rydym yn gofyn i wirfoddolwyr, pobl sydd â rhywfaint o brofiad o ymdrin â sefydliadau mawr, ddod i wirfoddoli ar gyfer corff llais y dinesydd, a siarad ar ran y dinasyddion y maen nhw'n eu cynrychioli. Yn y bôn, ffordd arall o ddweud hyn yw eu bod yn dweud y gwirionedd wrth y rhai mewn grym. Mae angen eu diogelu. Ac rwy'n gofyn mewn gwirionedd, Gweinidog, ichi newid eich meddwl. Mae dweud y gwirionedd wrth y rhai mewn grym yn eich rhoi mewn sefyllfa beryglus. Rydym yn gofyn iddyn nhw ddweud y gwirionedd wrth y rhai mewn grym. Dydyn nhw ddim mor fawr, dydyn nhw ddim mor gadarn, dydyn nhw ddim o reidrwydd mor brofiadol â'r bobl y maen nhw'n siarad â nhw. Mae dweud y gwirionedd wrth y rhai mewn grym yn rhywbeth y dylem ei ddiogelu ar bob cost. Pleidleisiwch dros y gwelliant hwn os gwelwch yn dda.
English: The question is that amendment 55 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [ Objection.] Open the vote, therefore, on amendment 55. Close the vote. In favour 21, no abstentions, 28 against. Therefore, amendment 55 is not agreed.
Welsh: Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn gwelliant 55? A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad? [ Gwrthwynebiad.] Agor y bleidlais, felly, ar welliant 55. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 21, neb yn ymatal, 28 yn erbyn. Ac felly, mae gwelliant 55 wedi ei wrthod.
English: We will have a short break of about 20 minutes, and I will ring the bell five minutes before we restart.
Welsh: Fe gymrwn ni doriad nawr, o tua 20 munud, ac fe fyddaf i'n canu'r gloch bum munud cyn i ni ailgychwyn.
English: We will reconvene. Group 11 is the next group for discussion. This group relates to resources for the citizen voice body. Amendment 57 is the lead amendment in the group, and I call on Angela Burns to move the lead amendment and speak to the other amendment in the group. Angela Burns.
Welsh: Felly, rydym ni'n ailgychwyn. Grŵp 11 yw'r grŵp sy'n cael ei drafod nesaf. Mae'r grŵp yma'n ymwneud ag adnoddau ar gyfer corff llais y dinesydd. Gwelliant 57 yw'r prif welliant yn y grŵp, a dwi'n galw ar Angela Burns i gynnig y prif welliant ac i siarad i'r gwelliannau. Angela Burns.
English: As I've already noted, we have our concerns about the nature of the citizen voice body that the Government is proposing to set up. But if it is going to be set up, then we have to ensure that it has the ability to operate in a way that has force and power behind it. And, of course, having the appropriate level of resources is vital in that. Once again, I think that I expect the Government to argue that there's no need for what the amendments call for, because the Minister doesn't have any intention to not provide the resources needed by the new body. But, of course, this legislation doesn't only relate to today's Government, but this legislation is going to commit Governments in the future, and we need assurances for the future. We don't have any assurance about what the health Ministers of the future will do, and, of course, the Minister will be very aware that bodies that are critical of the Government are ones that always carry the risk in terms of losing their funding. So, we need the assurance that's provided by these amendments.
Welsh: Fel dwi wedi'i nodi'n barod, mae gennym ni ein pryderon ynglŷn â natur corff llais y dinesydd y mae'r Llywodraeth yn argymell ei sefydlu. Ond os ydy o i gael ei sefydlu, mae eisiau gwneud yn siŵr bod ganddo fo y gallu i weithredu mewn ffordd sydd â grym y tu cefn iddo fo. Ac, wrth gwrs, mae cael y lefel briodol o adnoddau yn allweddol yn hynny o beth. Unwaith eto, dwi'n meddwl fy mod i'n disgwyl i'r Llywodraeth ddadlau nad oes angen yr hyn mae'r gwelliannau yma'n galw amdano fo, oherwydd nad oes gan y Gweinidog unrhyw fwriad o beidio â rhoi'r adnoddau sydd eu hangen ar y corff newydd. Ond, wrth gwrs, nid dim ond ymwneud â Llywodraeth heddiw mae'r ddeddfwriaeth yma sydd o'n blaenau ni, ond mae'r ddeddfwriaeth yma yn mynd i fod yn ymrwymo Llywodraethau'r dyfodol, ac mae angen sicrwydd ar gyfer y dyfodol. Does gennym ni ddim sicrwydd ynglŷn â beth fydd Gweinidogion iechyd y dyfodol yn ei wneud, ac, wrth gwrs, mi fydd y Gweinidog hefyd yn ymwybodol iawn fod cyrff sydd yn feirniadol o Lywodraeth yn rai sydd wastad yn cario'r risg o golli eu cyllid. Felly, mae angen y sicrwydd sy'n cael ei gynnig gan y gwelliannau yma.
English: Oh dear, oh dear, Llywydd, I think I rest my case. Rhun ap Iorwerth made a very good point about the fact that these kinds of bodies are the ones that often are the first to lose their funding when times are tight, and, basically, the Minister's reason for not wanting to ensure that - . No, Rhun ap Iorwerth said that. The Minister's main case for not wanting to make sure that there's enough funding in place is the fact that they've already got loads, they've got much more than England, they've got much more than Scotland, much more than Northern Ireland. I don't care. I want a citizen voice body that does the job to protect the Welsh citizen and to be the voice of the Welsh citizen. The funding they have at the moment has to cover the creation of a brand-new body to ensure that it runs well across our very large landscape that we have in Wales. [ Interruption.] Yes, of course.
Welsh: O diar, o diar, Llywydd, ni wnaeth imi heb a dweud mwy, rwy'n credu. Gwnaeth Rhun ap Iorwerth bwynt da iawn am y ffaith mai'r mathau hyn o gyrff yn aml yw'r rhai cyntaf i golli eu cyllid pan fydd pethau'n gwasgu, ac, yn y bôn, rheswm y Gweinidog dros beidio â dymuno sicrhau hynny - . Na, dywedodd Rhun ap Iorwerth hynny. Prif achos y Gweinidog dros beidio â gwneud yn siŵr bod digon o gyllid ar gael yw'r ffaith bod ganddynt ddigonedd eisoes, mae ganddynt lawer mwy na Lloegr, mae ganddynt lawer mwy na'r Alban, llawer mwy na Gogledd Iwerddon. Does dim ots gennyf i. Rwyf eisiau corff llais y dinesydd sy'n gwneud y gwaith o ddiogelu dinasyddion Cymru a bod yn llais i ddinasyddion Cymru. Mae'n rhaid i'r arian sydd ganddynt ar hyn o bryd gynnwys creu corff newydd sbon i sicrhau y caiff ei reoli'n dda ar draws y dirwedd eang iawn sydd gennym ni yng Nghymru. [ Torri ar draws.] Ie wrth gwrs.