English: Diolch, Llywydd. I'd like to formally move amendments 40, 19 and 20. This comes to the nub, to the heart, of the citizen voice body. If you talk to the citizen, they want a voice body, they want a representative body that's local to them, understands their local issues, understands their local health board, somebody they can access easily - and, of course, it's not just health boards now, it'll be the local residential home, private or public, it'll be domiciliary care, it'll be across all sorts of settings. There is a fear by significant parts of Wales that we get chopped out of the equation, and that everything is centred here in the south-east. North Wales, in particular, has a very strong sense of that disconnect; west Wales has a very strong sense of that disconnect, and we don't want that to happen. So, this is why we've tabled these amendments, to try to ensure on the face of the Bill that it's not just a promise, but it's actually in writing, that this voice body will represent people on an as-near-to-them-as-possible basis. Now, I am not, as you all know, an entirely unreasonable person, and I have discussed this matter with the Minister at great length and listened to him in various stages, talking about this. So, I have moderated from saying that I want an absolute replica of the CHCs - one for Pembrokeshire, one for Carmarthenshire, one for Ceredigion - and I'm prepared to go down the regional model, which is why amendment 40, which deals with that structure of regional body is very, very important. It is similar to amendment 59, tabled by the Minister, and amendment 75, tabled by Rhun ap Iorwerth. But we think, having talked to the Minister, and having talked to various people, that if we could build it on a regional basis, perhaps reflecting our regional partnership boards - which are there, which are enshrined, and we've been told that so much of our direction of travel over the next five or 10 years is going to hang on those regional partnership boards - it seemed very obvious to make them the footprint for a regional voice body. I'm very sad that, despite our conversations, the Minister has remained intransigent about this point. He wants flexibility, and I understand that desire. But I would warn you, Minister, that your quest for flexibility here, as has been the case throughout the Bill, runs a very real risk of leaving too much off the books - too much down to subsequent decisions, subsequent guidelines, subsequent promises and subsequent intent. And above all, what we don't want to see is some body that is centralised in a place where, if the citizen wants to access them, they have to phone into this place, and maybe somebody will come out - maybe somebody will come from Cardiff to Pembrokeshire, maybe somebody will come from Cardiff to Arfon to listen to somebody, hear their problems and try and sort them out. That's not what we want. So, we are very keen to see our amendment, which enshrines the locality, actually put onto the face of the Bill. And if our amendment were to fall, then I would support the Plaid one. Although, my only comment is that the structures that you are suggesting it could be based on could be changed in the new format, if they change local government, if there's, you know - . So, that's why we went for the regional partnership boards, because we think that, whatever happens, they'll probably be the rocks that never, ever move. And, Minister, I thought about this long and hard, because I thought, 'Well, if our amendment falls and then Plaid Cymru's falls, the next best thing perhaps would be to adopt your amendment, which promises face-to-face consultation wherever possible, however possible', but the more I thought about it, the more I thought, 'No, that's just not right.' This is a body to represent the citizen's voice, wherever they are, not wherever you or the body are - big difference.
Welsh: Diolch, Llywydd. Hoffwn i gynnig gwelliannau 40, 19 ac 20 yn ffurfiol. Daw hyn i hanfod, i galon, y corff llais y dinesydd. Os siaradwch chi â dinasyddion, maen nhw eisiau corff llais, maen nhw eisiau bod â chorff cynrychioliadol sy'n lleol iddyn nhw, sy'n deall eu materion lleol, sy'n deall eu bwrdd iechyd lleol, rhywun y gallan nhw fynd ato'n rhwydd - ac, wrth gwrs, nid byrddau iechyd yn unig bellach, ond bydd y cartref preswyl lleol, preifat neu gyhoeddus, bydd yn ofal cartref, bydd ar draws pob math o leoliadau. Ceir ofn gan rannau sylweddol o Gymru y cawn ni ein torri allan o hyn, a bod popeth yn cael ei ganoli yma yn y de-ddwyrain. Mae gan y gogledd, yn arbennig, ymdeimlad cryf iawn o'r datgysylltiad hwnnw; mae gan y gorllewin ymdeimlad cryf iawn o'r datgysylltiad hwnnw, a dydyn ni ddim eisiau i hynny ddigwydd. Felly, dyma pam yr ydym ni wedi cyflwyno'r gwelliannau hyn, er mwyn ceisio sicrhau, ar wyneb y Bil, nad dim ond addewid yw hyn, ond ei fod mewn gwirionedd yn ysgrifenedig, y bydd y corff llais hwn yn cynrychioli pobl ar sail mor agos iddyn nhw â phosibl. Nawr, dydw i ddim, fel y gŵyr pob un ohonoch, yn berson cwbl afresymol, ac rwyf i wedi trafod y mater hwn gyda'r Gweinidog yn helaeth ac wedi gwrando arno ar wahanol gyfnodau, yn siarad am hyn. Felly, rwyf i wedi cymedroli o ddweud fy mod i eisiau gweld union gopi o'r cynghorau iechyd cymuned - un ar gyfer sir Benfro, un ar gyfer sir Gaerfyrddin, un ar gyfer Ceredigion - ac rwy'n barod i ddilyn y model rhanbarthol, a dyna pam y mae gwelliant 40, sy'n ymdrin â'r strwythur hwnnw o gorff rhanbarthol yn bwysig iawn, iawn. Mae'n debyg i welliant 59, a gyflwynwyd gan y Gweinidog, a gwelliant 75, a gyflwynwyd gan Rhun ap Iorwerth. Ond rydym ni'n credu, ar ôl siarad â'r Gweinidog, ac ar ôl siarad â gwahanol bobl, pe gallem ni ei ddatblygu ar sail ranbarthol, gan efallai adlewyrchu ein byrddau partneriaeth rhanbarthol - sydd yno, sydd wedi eu hymgorffori, a dywedwyd wrthym fod cymaint o'n cyfeiriad teithio dros y pump neu'r 10 mlynedd nesaf yn mynd i ddibynnu ar y byrddau partneriaeth rhanbarthol hynny - roedd yn ymddangos yn amlwg iawn i'w gwneud nhw yn ôl troed ar gyfer corff llais rhanbarthol. Rwy'n drist iawn bod y Gweinidog, er gwaethaf ein sgyrsiau, wedi parhau i fod yn ddi-ildio ar y pwynt hwn. Mae arno eisiau hyblygrwydd, ac rwy'n deall yr awydd hwnnw. Ond byddwn i'n eich rhybuddio, Gweinidog, bod eich ymdrech i sicrhau hyblygrwydd yn y fan yma, fel sydd wedi digwydd yn y Bil drwyddo draw, yn creu risg wirioneddol o adael gormod oddi ar y llyfrau - gormod i benderfyniadau dilynol, canllawiau dilynol, addewidion dilynol a bwriad dilynol. Ac yn anad dim, yr hyn nad ydym ni eisiau ei weld yw rhyw gorff sydd wedi ei ganoli mewn man lle, os yw'r dinesydd eisiau cael gafael arno, y mae'n rhaid iddo ffonio y lle hwnnw, ac efallai y daw rhywun - efallai y daw rhywun o Gaerdydd i sir Benfro, efallai y daw rhywun o Gaerdydd i Arfon i wrando ar rywun, clywed eu problemau a cheisio eu datrys. Nid dyna yr ydym ni ei eisiau. Felly, rydym ni'n awyddus iawn i weld ein gwelliant ni, sy'n cynnwys yr ardal leol, yn cael ei roi ar wyneb y Bil, mewn gwirionedd. A phe byddai ein gwelliant ni yn methu, yna byddwn i'n cefnogi gwelliant Plaid. Er, fy unig sylw yw y gallai'r strwythurau yr ydych chi'n awgrymu y gallai fod wedi ei seilio arnyn nhw gael eu newid yn y fformat newydd, os ydyn nhw'n newid llywodraeth leol, os oes, wyddoch chi - . Felly, dyna pam aethom ni am y byrddau partneriaeth rhanbarthol, oherwydd ein bod ni'n credu, beth bynnag sy'n digwydd, ei bod yn debygol mai'r rhain fydd y creigiau na fydd byth, byth yn symud. A, Gweinidog, meddyliais yn hir ac yn drylwyr am hyn, oherwydd roeddwn i'n credu, 'Wel, os bydd ein gwelliant ni yn methu ac wedyn un Plaid Cymru yn methu, y peth gorau wedyn efallai fyddai mabwysiadu eich gwelliant chi, sy'n addo ymgynghori wyneb yn wyneb pryd bynnag y bo modd, sut bynnag y bo modd', ond po fwyaf yr oeddwn i'n ystyried y peth, po fwyaf yr oeddwn i'n meddwl, 'Na, dydy hynny wir ddim yn iawn.' Corff yw hwn i gynrychioli llais y dinesydd, lle bynnag y bo, nid lle bynnag y byddwch chi neu'r corff - gwahaniaeth mawr.