English: Well, a number of the parties in this Chamber - and his, in fairness - contained proposals with regard to the future of income tax varying powers in their manifestos in the election, and the people of Wales gave their verdict. From my party's perspective, we said that we would not increase the burden of income tax on people during the course of this Assembly term. People went into the election knowing that. They did not vote in huge numbers for parties who said, 'We are opposed to partial income tax varying powers coming to Wales', or indeed for parties that demanded there should be a referendum. The point is this: Scotland has been offered far more substantive tax-varying powers than Wales, with no referendum; Northern Ireland has tax-varying powers on offer to it, particularly with regard to corporation tax, which are hugely significant in terms of what could happen there - again without a referendum. Is there really a need for a referendum every time there is a change in the devolution settlement? [Interruption.] Well, the promise was made by the UK Government, not by us. For the interest of the UK Government to explain its position, all the parties explained their positions in the election last month and the electorate gave their view. The electorate were not of the view that they wished to vote for parties that wished to have a referendum or indeed were opposed to income tax varying powers. The power has to be used prudently. I understand that. He talks of a time when there were penal rates of income tax. I was in the junior school at that time, so I'll bow to his experience of that. But, certainly, my experience of the Labour Governments of late were not that they introduced penal rates of tax, and nor would be want to do the same. What it does, of course, is give us the opportunity to create a revenue stream against which we can borrow prudently. If we don't get income tax varying powers, we can't borrow money and we can't actually build the M4 relief road. So, actually, income tax varying powers lead to larger schemes that we have no hope of paying for otherwise. In England, in Scotland and in Northern Ireland it is normal, with the borrowing powers that those Governments have, to borrow money for big schemes. If we don't have access to that, we can't do anything with major transport infrastructure, although, of course, the powers have to be used prudently and sensibly on behalf of the people of Wales.
Welsh: Wel, roedd nifer o'r pleidiau yn y Siambr hon - a'i un ef, a bod yn deg - yn cynnwys argymhellion ar ddyfodol pwerau i amrywio'r dreth incwm yn eu maniffestos yn yr etholiad, a rhoddodd pobl Cymru eu dyfarniad. O safbwynt fy mhlaid i, dywedasom na fyddem yn cynyddu baich treth incwm ar bobl yn ystod y tymor Cynulliad hwn. Aeth pobl i'r etholiad gan wybod hynny. Ni phleidleisodd niferoedd enfawr dros bleidiau a ddywedodd, 'Rydym yn erbyn cael pwerau rhannol i amrywio treth incwm yng Nghymru', na'n wir dros bleidiau a oedd yn mynnu y dylid cynnal refferendwm. Y pwynt yw hwn: mae'r Alban wedi cael cynnig pwerau amrywio trethi llawer mwy sylweddol na Chymru, heb unrhyw refferendwm; mae pwerau amrywio trethi wedi'u cynnig i Ogledd Iwerddon, yn enwedig mewn perthynas â'r dreth gorfforaeth, sy'n arwyddocaol iawn o ran yr hyn a allai ddigwydd yno - eto heb refferendwm. A oes gwir angen refferendwm bob tro y bydd newid yn y setliad datganoli? [Torri ar draws.] Wel, gwnaed yr addewid gan Lywodraeth y DU, nid gennym ni. Er mwyn i Lywodraeth y DU egluro ei safbwynt, eglurodd yr holl bleidiau eu safbwyntiau yn yr etholiad y mis diwethaf a mynegodd yr etholwyr eu barn. Nid oedd yr etholwyr o'r farn eu bod yn dymuno pleidleisio dros bleidiau a ddymunai gael refferendwm na'n wir dros bleidiau a oedd yn gwrthwynebu pwerau i amrywio treth incwm. Rhaid defnyddio'r pŵer yn ddoeth. Rwy'n deall hynny. Mae'n sôn am adeg pan oedd cyfraddau treth incwm yn gosbedigaethol. Roeddwn i yn yr ysgol gynradd ar y pryd, felly rwy'n derbyn ei air o brofiad ar hynny. Ond yn sicr, nid fy mhrofiad o Lywodraethau Llafur diweddar oedd eu bod yn cyflwyno cyfraddau treth cosbedigaethol, ac ni fyddem eisiau gwneud hynny. Yr hyn y mae'n ei wneud, wrth gwrs, yw rhoi cyfle i ni greu ffrwd refeniw y gallwn fenthyg yn ddoeth yn ei herbyn. Os na chawn bwerau i amrywio treth incwm, ni allwn fenthyg arian ac ni fyddwn yn gallu adeiladu ffordd liniaru'r M4. Felly, mewn gwirionedd, mae pwerau i amrywio treth incwm yn arwain at gynlluniau mwy nag y byddai gennym obaith o dalu amdanynt fel arall. Yn Lloegr, yr Alban a Gogledd Iwerddon mae'n arferol, gyda'r pwerau benthyca sydd gan y Llywodraethau hynny, i fenthyca arian ar gyfer cynlluniau mawr. Os na chawn y gallu i wneud hynny, ni allwn wneud unrhyw beth gyda seilwaith trafnidiaeth mawr, er bod yn rhaid defnyddio'r pwerau'n ddoeth ac yn synhwyrol, wrth gwrs, ar ran pobl Cymru.