English: Diolch, Llywydd, and thank you to all colleagues for the comments that they've made in the debate this afternoon. I think that, undoubtedly, there are some real points of detail that, as we progress through the scrutiny process - and I do hope that we are able, after today, to progress to Stage 2 - we will need to further debate and work on and consider together. I have set out today why I believe the Bill is important, and in particular to protect the vulnerabilities of our devolved taxes and the Welsh Government's budget. I have listened really carefully to the views of committees and other Members in response, and set out the significant changes, I think, limiting the effect and the longevity of the legislation. I think it's also worth reflecting that I've also moved considerably since we even set out the original proposal for the legislation. I responded to the outcome of the consultation by reworking the scope of the regulation-making power to include four purpose tests, which a number of colleagues have referred to this afternoon. That really did, I think, move us a long way in the first instance from our first proposals, which were to introduce quite a wide-ranging and wide regulation-making power. But the four purpose tests now really do narrow that down. It's limited to any of the four specific purposes, which include ensuring that the landfill disposals tax and land transaction tax are not imposed where to do so would result in non-compliance with any international obligations; to protect against tax avoidance in relation to landfill disposals tax and land transaction tax; to respond to changes in the predecessor UK taxes - that is, stamp duty land tax and landfill tax - which could impact on the amount paid into the Welsh consolidated fund; and then, finally, to respond to the decisions of the courts or tribunals that affect, or may affect, the Welsh tax Acts, or the regulations made under them. So, I think that we have moved considerably through the scrutiny process thus far to try and address concerns. And of course, these regulation-making powers can only be used where Welsh Ministers consider it necessary or appropriate to do so, and I know we had some good debate in committee on that particular point. It may be necessary at certain points to make these regulations, but, actually, there may be other points where it's appropriate to do so. So, it might not be necessary to confer benefits on Welsh taxpayers, but it might be appropriate to do so, and that's one of the reasons why we've introduced that particular test. But I know there'll be further discussions with committees, hopefully, if we're able to progress to those discussions. I think it's also worth us highlighting and considering what will happen if the Bill isn't allowed to go forward, and that we don't have these powers. I think that the vast majority of colleagues at least recognise that there is an issue here and that there is a need for the Welsh Government to be able to respond in an agile way. The Bill is essential to provide Welsh Ministers and the Senedd with the necessary powers to address those external events. And actually, they're external events of course that the UK Government itself wouldn't need to address because they are related to the UK Government's tax decisions that they make themselves. And that, I think, is an aspect of the devolution settlement that's significant and that we must have the tools to be able to address in a quick and agile manner. And let's remember as well that this Bill is about protecting the Welsh budget. It's also about ensuring that we're able to confer benefits on Welsh taxpayers in a timely manner, which I think our Welsh taxpayers would expect us to be able to do for them. So, we do need a mechanism now, I think, to respond to those external scenarios as they arise, and ones that might impact on the budgets. And without the legislation, to be frank, we are still going to have to find ways in which we respond, and there is likely to be an attached cost and other concerns in relation to that. In most cases, that would mean that we would have to respond using emergency legislation, and there are various drawbacks to that approach. At the moment in Wales, there is no current equivalent mechanism to the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1968 in Welsh law, but, of course, as we have these further conversations about the architecture that we might have in future, then that certainly might be something that we could be considering together in that regard. If we aren't able to have the powers within this Bill, and if this Bill isn't able to go forward, it does mean that we just have to live, potentially, with some changes imposed on the Welsh Government, which could have some significant impact on our budgets. Or, alternatively, it might mean responding to a change over a longer period of time, using primary legislation. Or, if Welsh Ministers do have secondary legislation powers in the Welsh tax Acts that we are able to use, we can use those, but they are largely subject to the draft affirmative procedure and they won't, of course, cover all of the potential changes that could be required. The most likely scenario, I think, would be that we would need to respond using emergency legislation. And, of course, there are some drawbacks to that approach as well. And I do hear what colleagues say about the importance of primary legislation, but I do think there's also some merit in considering whether, in all cases, primary legislation does necessarily give to the best scrutiny. Emergency Bills, for example, can pass in a single day, and I do think that a comparison between the scrutiny that the primary legislation to effect the stamp duty land tax holiday across the border in England during the pandemic received and the scrutiny that the Senedd gave to our changes to the rates and bands, which were made by affirmative regulations around the same time, is illustrative. The SDLT legislation was introduced on 13 July, albeit having been subject to a Provisional Collection of Taxes Act resolution on 8 July, and it was passed on 17 July. But our secondary legislation was made on 24 July, came into force on 27 July, and was, in large part because of the summer recess, approved by the Senedd on 29 September 2020. And the Finance Committee did undertake scrutiny of that. I gave evidence to the committee and, of course, the Finance Committee was able to call on expertise externally, to take external evidence and so on, if it had wished to as well. So, I think that there is a lot to be said for the scrutiny afforded by secondary legislation as well. But these are debates I think that we will continue to have and I hope that we are able to have. And I would urge colleagues to allow this Bill to proceed to the next stage, to Stage 2. I have committed, of course, to taking steps with committees to find an appropriate longer term legislative solution to the issues that the Bill seeks to provide, and I just want to confirm to the Chair of the Finance Committee that I commit that that work would be in no way delayed if this Bill is able to progress. And just finally, again, Llywydd, I ask colleagues to allow this Bill to pass to Stage 2 so that we can continue to work in a really constructive way, between Welsh Government and committees, to ensure that we do have the ability to protect the Welsh finances and also to ensure that Welsh taxpayers receive timely benefits, and also in doing so of course, importantly, ensuring that we respect fully the role of the Senedd. And I ask colleagues again to allow this to proceed to Stage 2. Diolch yn fawr.
Welsh: Diolch, Llywydd, a diolch i'r holl gyd-Aelodau am y sylwadau y maen nhw wedi'u gwneud yn y ddadl y prynhawn yma. Rwy'n credu, yn ddi-os, fod rhai pwyntiau manwl iawn, wrth i ni symud ymlaen drwy'r broses graffu - ac rwyf i yn gobeithio y gallwn ni, ar ôl heddiw, symud ymlaen i Gyfnod 2 - bydd angen i ni drafod ymhellach a gweithio ac ystyried gyda'n gilydd. Rwyf i wedi nodi heddiw pam yr wyf i'n credu bod y Bil yn bwysig, ac yn arbennig i ddiogelu bregusrwydd ein trethi datganoledig a chyllideb Llywodraeth Cymru. Rwyf i wedi gwrando'n ofalus iawn ar farn pwyllgorau ac Aelodau eraill mewn ymateb i hyn, ac wedi nodi'r newidiadau sylweddol, yn fy marn i, sy'n cyfyngu ar effaith a hirhoedledd y ddeddfwriaeth. Rwy'n credu bod gwerth adlewyrchu hefyd fy mod hefyd wedi symud yn sylweddol ers i ni hyd yn oed gyflwyno'r cynnig gwreiddiol ar gyfer y ddeddfwriaeth. Gwnes i ymateb i ganlyniad yr ymgynghoriad drwy ailysgrifennu cwmpas y pŵer i wneud rheoliadau i gynnwys pedwar prawf diben, y mae nifer o gyd-Aelodau wedi cyfeirio atyn nhw y prynhawn yma. Fe wnaeth hynny, rwy'n credu, yn wirioneddol ein symud ni dipyn o ffordd yn y lle cyntaf o'n cynigion cyntaf, sef cyflwyno pŵer gwneud rheoliadau eithaf eang gyda phŵer eang i wneud rheoliadau. Ond mae'r pedwar prawf diben yn lleihau hynny erbyn hyn. Mae wedi'i gyfyngu i unrhyw un o'r pedwar diben penodol, sy'n cynnwys sicrhau nad yw'r dreth gwarediadau tirlenwi a'r dreth trafodiadau tir yn cael eu gosod lle byddai gwneud hynny'n arwain at beidio â chydymffurfio ag unrhyw rwymedigaethau rhyngwladol; i ddiogelu rhag osgoi treth o ran gwarediadau tirlenwi a threth trafodiadau tir; ymateb i newidiadau yn nhrethi blaenorol y DU - hynny yw, treth dir y dreth stamp a threth tirlenwi - a allai effeithio ar y swm sy'n cael ei dalu i gronfa gyfunol Cymru; ac yna, yn olaf, i ymateb i benderfyniadau'r llysoedd neu'r tribiwnlysoedd sy'n effeithio ar Ddeddfau trethi Cymru, neu a allai effeithio arnyn nhw, neu'r rheoliadau a gaiff eu gwneud oddi tanyn nhw. Felly, rwy'n credu ein bod ni wedi symud yn sylweddol drwy'r broses graffu hyd yma i geisio ymdrin â phryderon. Ac wrth gwrs, dim ond pan fydd Gweinidogion Cymru o'r farn ei bod yn angenrheidiol neu'n briodol gwneud hynny y mae modd defnyddio'r pwerau gwneud rheoliadau hyn, ac rwy'n gwybod y cawsom ni ddadl dda yn y pwyllgor ar y pwynt penodol hwnnw. Efallai ar adegau penodol y bydd angen gwneud y rheoliadau hyn, ond, mewn gwirionedd, efallai y bydd adegau eraill pan fydd yn briodol gwneud hynny. Felly, efallai na fydd angen rhoi manteision i drethdalwyr Cymru, ond efallai y byddai'n briodol gwneud hynny, a dyna un o'r rhesymau pam yr ydym ni wedi cyflwyno'r prawf penodol hwnnw. Ond rwy'n gwybod y bydd trafodaethau eraill gyda phwyllgorau, gobeithio, os gallwn ni symud ymlaen i'r trafodaethau hynny. Rwy'n credu bod gwerth i ni dynnu sylw hefyd at yr hyn a fydd yn digwydd ac ystyried beth fydd yn digwydd os na chaniateir i'r Bil fynd yn ei flaen, ac nad oes gennym ni'r pwerau hyn. Rwy'n credu bod y mwyafrif llethol o gyd-Aelodau o leiaf yn cydnabod bod problem yma a bod angen i Lywodraeth Cymru allu ymateb mewn ffordd ystwyth. Mae'r Bil yn hanfodol er mwyn rhoi'r pwerau angenrheidiol i Weinidogion Cymru a'r Senedd ymdrin â'r digwyddiadau allanol hynny. Ac mewn gwirionedd, maen nhw'n ddigwyddiadau allanol wrth gwrs na fyddai angen i Lywodraeth y DU ei hun ymdrin â nhw oherwydd eu bod yn gysylltiedig â phenderfyniadau trethi Llywodraeth y DU y maen nhw'n eu gwneud eu hunain. Ac mae hynny, rwy'n credu, yn agwedd ar y setliad datganoli sy'n arwyddocaol ac mae'n rhaid i ni gael yr arfau i allu mynd i'r afael â nhw mewn modd cyflym ac ystwyth. A gadewch i ni gofio hefyd fod y Bil hwn yn ymwneud â diogelu cyllideb Cymru. Mae hefyd yn ymwneud â sicrhau ein bod ni'n gallu rhoi manteision i drethdalwyr Cymru mewn modd amserol, ac rwy'n credu y byddai trethdalwyr Cymru yn disgwyl i ni allu gwneud hynny ar eu cyfer. Felly, mae angen dull arnom yn awr, rwy'n credu, o ymateb i'r sefyllfaoedd allanol hynny wrth iddyn nhw godi, a rhai a allai effeithio ar y cyllidebau. A heb y ddeddfwriaeth, a bod yn onest, bydd yn rhaid i ni ddod o hyd i ffyrdd o ymateb, ac mae'n debygol y bydd cost gysylltiedig a phryderon eraill o ran hynny. Yn y rhan fwyaf o achosion, byddai hynny'n golygu y byddai'n rhaid i ni ymateb gan ddefnyddio deddfwriaeth frys, ac mae nifer o anfanteision i'r dull hwnnw. Ar hyn o bryd yng Nghymru, nid oes mecanwaith cyfatebol i Ddeddf Casglu Trethi Dros Dro 1968 yng nghyfraith Cymru, ond, wrth gwrs, gan ein bod ni'n cael y sgyrsiau eraill hyn am y fframwaith a allai fod gennym ni yn y dyfodol, yna gallai hynny'n sicr fod yn rhywbeth y gallem ni fod yn ei ystyried gyda'n gilydd yn hynny o beth. Os na allwn ni gael y pwerau yn y Bil hwn, ac os na all y Bil hwn fynd yn ei flaen, mae'n golygu bod yn rhaid i ni fyw, o bosibl, gyda rhai newidiadau a fydd wedi eu gorfodi ar Lywodraeth Cymru, a allai arwain at effaith sylweddol ar ein cyllidebau. Neu, fel arall, gallai olygu ymateb i newid dros gyfnod hwy o amser, gan ddefnyddio deddfwriaeth sylfaenol. Neu, os oes gan Weinidogion Cymru bwerau is-ddeddfwriaeth yn Neddfau trethi Cymru y mae'n bosibl i ni eu defnyddio, gallwn ni eu defnyddio nhw, ond maen nhw'n ddarostyngedig i'r weithdrefn gadarnhaol ddrafft i raddau helaeth ac ni fyddan nhw, wrth gwrs, yn ymdrin â'r holl newidiadau posibl y gallai fod eu hangen. Y sefyllfa fwyaf tebygol, rwy'n credu, yw y byddai angen i ni ymateb gan ddefnyddio deddfwriaeth frys. Ac, wrth gwrs, mae anfanteision i'r dull hwnnw hefyd. Ac rwyf i yn clywed yr hyn y mae cyd-Aelodau'n ei ddweud ynghylch pwysigrwydd deddfwriaeth sylfaenol, ond rwyf i yn credu bod rhywfaint o werth hefyd mewn ystyried a yw deddfwriaeth sylfaenol, ym mhob achos, o reidrwydd yn rhoi'r craffu gorau posibl. Gall Biliau Brys, er enghraifft, basio mewn un diwrnod, ac rwyf i yn credu bod cymhariaeth rhwng y craffu a wnaed ar y ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol i weithredu gwyliau treth dir y dreth stamp dros y ffin yn Lloegr yn ystod y pandemig a'r craffu a wnaeth y Senedd ar ein newidiadau ni i'r cyfraddau a'r bandiau, a gafodd eu gwneud drwy reoliadau cadarnhaol tua'r un pryd, yn ddarluniol. Cyflwynwyd y ddeddfwriaeth treth dir y dreth stamp ar 13 Gorffennaf, er y bu'n destun penderfyniad Deddf Casglu Trethi Dros Dro ar 8 Gorffennaf, a chafodd ei phasio ar 17 Gorffennaf. Ond cafodd ein his-ddeddfwriaeth ni ei gwneud ar 24 Gorffennaf, daeth i rym ar 27 Gorffennaf, a chafodd ei chymeradwyo, i raddau helaeth oherwydd toriad yr haf, gan y Senedd ar 29 Medi 2020. Ac fe wnaeth y Pwyllgor Cyllid graffu ar hynny. Rhoddais dystiolaeth i'r pwyllgor ac, wrth gwrs, roedd y Pwyllgor Cyllid yn gallu galw ar arbenigedd yn allanol, i gymryd tystiolaeth allanol ac yn y blaen, pe bai wedi dymuno gwneud hynny hefyd. Felly, rwy'n credu bod llawer i'w ddweud am y craffu sy'n cael ei ganiatáu gan is-ddeddfwriaeth hefyd. Ond mae'r rhain yn ddadleuon rwy'n credu y byddwn yn parhau i'w cael ac rwy'n gobeithio y gallwn ni eu cael. A byddwn i'n annog fy nghyd-Aelodau i ganiatáu i'r Bil hwn fynd ymlaen i'r cam nesaf, i Gyfnod 2. Rwyf i wedi ymrwymo, wrth gwrs, i gymryd camau gyda'r pwyllgorau i ddod o hyd i ddatrysiad deddfwriaethol tymor hwy priodol i'r materion y mae'r Bil yn ceisio'u darparu, a hoffwn i gadarnhau i Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Cyllid fy mod i'n ymrwymo na fyddai'r gwaith hwnnw'n cael ei ohirio o gwbl os gall y Bil hwn symud ymlaen. Ac yn olaf, unwaith eto, Llywydd, gofynnaf i fy nghyd-Aelodau ganiatáu i'r Bil hwn fynd i Gyfnod 2 fel y gallwn ni barhau i weithio mewn ffordd wirioneddol adeiladol, rhwng Llywodraeth Cymru a phwyllgorau, i sicrhau bod gennym ni'r gallu i ddiogelu cyllid Cymru a hefyd i sicrhau bod trethdalwyr Cymru'n cael manteision amserol, a hefyd wrth wneud hynny wrth gwrs, yn sicrhau yn bwysig ein bod ni'n parchu rhan y Senedd yn llawn. A gofynnaf eto i fy nghyd-Aelodau ganiatáu i hyn fynd ymlaen i Gyfnod 2. Diolch yn fawr.