English: I strongly agree with the latter point that Jenny Rathbone makes. If I thought, as I started out by saying, that there was any worthwhile rehabilitative value in giving prisoners the right to vote, I would support doing that. I don't, in fact, think that there is, and I do believe that it should be open to society to express its revulsion at criminal offences by removing the right to vote from those who have other rights removed from them by virtue of the fact of imprisonment itself. Certainly, it should be for institutions such as the National Assembly to take that decision, not unelected judges in courts in Strasbourg. It's the European Court of Human Rights that we are dealing with here, not the European Court of Justice. So, we will not be leaving the Council of Europe and the European Convention on Human Rights, and we will still have to observe the decisions of those judges. The Government at UK level has proposed some minor changes that have actually been accepted now by the Council of Ministers as fulfilling the judgment in the Hirst case. They are relatively limited in effect, and I'll just read them into the record. There are five of them. Prisoners on remand can vote. Prisoners committed to prison for contempt of court can vote. Prisoners committed to prison for default in paying fines can vote. Eligible prisoners released on temporary licence can vote. And prisoners released on home detention curfew can vote. I hope that, in conformity with the judgment of the European court, when the Welsh Government puts its proposals forward after it has considered the report of the equalities committee, they won't go one jot or tittle beyond that, because I think that there is absolutely no public support whatsoever for giving prisoners the vote. If we had a people's vote on this issue, I've no doubt that there would be a very heavy majority against doing so. So, I think that the Government has a heavy responsibility on its shoulders if it wants truly to represent the people, not least in Labour constituencies, to keep the legislation to the minimum possible.
Welsh: Rwy'n cytuno'n gryf â'r pwynt olaf y mae Jenny Rathbone yn ei wneud. Pe bawn yn meddwl, fel y dechreuais drwy ddweud, fod unrhyw werth adsefydlol mawr i roi hawl i bleidleisio i garcharorion, buaswn yn cefnogi gwneud hynny. Nid wyf yn meddwl bod, mewn gwirionedd, ac rwy'n credu y dylai fod yn agored i gymdeithas fynegi ei hatgasedd tuag at droseddau drwy gael gwared ar hawl i bleidleisio y rheini sydd wedi colli hawliau eraill yn rhinwedd y ffaith eu bod yn y carchar. Yn sicr, dylai fod yn fater i sefydliadau fel y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol wneud y penderfyniad hwnnw, nid barnwyr anetholedig mewn llysoedd yn Strasbourg. Sôn am Lys Hawliau Dynol Ewrop a wnawn yma, nid Llys Cyfiawnder Ewrop. Felly, nid fyddwn yn gadael Cyngor Ewrop a'r Confensiwn Ewropeaidd ar Hawliau Dynol, a bydd yn rhaid i ni barhau i gydymffurfio â phenderfyniadau'r barnwyr hynny. Mae'r Llywodraeth ar lefel y DU wedi cynnig rhai mân newidiadau sydd wedi eu derbyn bellach gan Gyngor y Gweinidogion fel rhai sy'n cyflawni'r dyfarniad yn achos Hirst. Maent yn gymharol gyfyngedig o ran eu heffaith, ac fe'u darllenaf ar gyfer y cofnod. Mae yna bump ohonynt. Gall carcharorion ar remánd bleidleisio. Gall carcharorion a anfonwyd i'r carchar am ddirmyg llys bleidleisio. Gall carcharorion a anfonwyd i'r carchar am fethu talu dirwyon bleidleisio. Gall carcharorion cymwys a gafodd eu rhyddhau ar drwydded dros dro bleidleisio. A gall carcharorion a ryddhawyd ar gyrffyw cartref bleidleisio. I gydymffurfio â dyfarniad y llys Ewropeaidd, pan fo Llywodraeth Cymru yn cyflwyno ei chynigion ar ôl ystyried adroddiad y pwyllgor cydraddoldebau, rwy'n gobeithio nad ânt gam ymhellach na hynny, gan na chredaf fod unrhyw gefnogaeth gyhoeddus o gwbl i roi'r bleidlais i garcharorion. Pe baem yn cael pleidlais i'r bobl ar y mater hwn, nid oes gennyf unrhyw amheuaeth y byddai mwyafrif trwm iawn yn erbyn gwneud hynny. Felly, rwy'n credu bod gan y Llywodraeth gyfrifoldeb trwm ar ei hysgwyddau os yw'n dymuno cynrychioli'r bobl go iawn, yn enwedig mewn etholaethau Llafur, i gadw'r ddeddfwriaeth i'r lleiafswm posibl.