English: Thank you, Jane, for proposing this debate. I would like to start by saying that I agree that there are significant numbers of Welsh workers who are employed in industries that will undergo significant change as part of the transition to net zero. However, I am not convinced that the transition to a zero-carbon economy in Wales is going to cause either widespread unemployment or have any negative impact on employment at all. If anything, I would argue that these industries will invest more in their staff in order to train them for their decarbonisation transition, and, as such, I am at a loss as to why people would think that it could be an unjust transition for workers as we move to a zero-carbon economy. Furthermore, we have strong employment laws across the United Kingdom, so even if workers found themselves in a position where they were made unemployed as a result of decarbonisation, they would be compensated as appropriate. This leads me to question what evidence has been presented to suggest that, in Wales, those employed in industries that are decarbonising will actually be unjustly impacted. I believe that during the transition to zero carbon, workers will more than likely see improvements in their working conditions, and probably find better pay in the long term, as the businesses save money through more efficient technologies. Members will be well aware that the Climate Change Committee, an independent statutory body established under the Climate Act 2008, whose purpose is to advise the UK and devolved governments on adapting, among other things, to the impacts of climate change, reports that, for Wales, and I quote, 'the Net Zero transition will bring real savings, as people use fewer resources and adopt cleaner, more-efficient technologies,' And so, I would argue that calling on the Welsh Government to give people money in the form of a basic income to help this transition, on the premise that workers will be unjustly impacted, is an irresponsible use of public funds. Moreover, the idea that a basic income for those employed in decarbonising industries to help them experience a just transition is flawed, because employers will have no incentive to increase wages and return to employees the financial benefits that come from the decarbonisation of their industries. This is likely to disproportionately affect those in lower paid jobs more than higher paying jobs, thereby stunting the trend towards higher minimum wages that would likely be delivered by businesses moving to zero-carbon outputs. We have to be aware that the basic income trial will also be giving money to many people who are already very well compensated for the work, and this will be done at the expense of helping some of the poorest people in Wales. We have to question where people believe the Welsh Government is going to find the money for this increased basic income trial. They cannot borrow it, and they should certainly not be able to do so.
Welsh: Diolch am gynnig y ddadl hon, Jane. Hoffwn ddechrau drwy ddweud fy mod yn cytuno bod nifer sylweddol o weithwyr Cymru'n cael eu cyflogi mewn diwydiannau a fydd yn newid yn sylweddol fel rhan o'r trawsnewid i sero net. Fodd bynnag, nid wyf wedi fy argyhoeddi bod y newid i economi ddi-garbon yng Nghymru yn mynd i achosi diweithdra eang na chael unrhyw effaith negyddol ar gyflogaeth o gwbl. Os rhywbeth, byddwn yn dadlau y bydd y diwydiannau hyn yn buddsoddi mwy yn eu staff er mwyn eu hyfforddi ar gyfer y newid i ddatgarboneiddio, ac fel y cyfryw, nid wyf yn deall pam y byddai pobl yn meddwl y gallai fod yn newid anghyfiawn i weithwyr wrth inni symud i economi ddi-garbon. At hynny, mae gennym gyfreithiau cyflogaeth cryf ledled y Deyrnas Unedig, felly hyd yn oed pe bai gweithwyr mewn sefyllfa lle cawsant eu gwneud yn ddi-waith o ganlyniad i ddatgarboneiddio, byddent yn cael eu digolledu fel y bo'n briodol. Mae hyn yn fy arwain i gwestiynu pa dystiolaeth sydd wedi'i chyflwyno i awgrymu, yng Nghymru, y bydd y rhai a gyflogir mewn diwydiannau sy'n datgarboneiddio yn cael eu heffeithio'n annheg. Yn ystod y trawsnewid i fod yn ddi-garbon, rwy'n credu ei bod yn debygol y bydd gweithwyr yn gweld gwelliannau yn eu hamodau gwaith, ac mae'n debyg y byddant yn cael gwell cyflogau yn y tymor hir, wrth i'r busnesau arbed arian drwy dechnolegau mwy effeithlon. Bydd yr Aelodau'n ymwybodol iawn fod y Pwyllgor Newid Hinsawdd, corff statudol annibynnol a sefydlwyd o dan Ddeddf Hinsawdd 2008 gyda'r diben o gynghori'r DU a'r Llywodraethau datganoledig ar addasu, ymhlith pethau eraill, i effeithiau newid hinsawdd, wedi dweud y bydd y newid i Sero Net yng Nghymru, 'yn creu arbedion gwirioneddol, wrth i bobl ddefnyddio llai o adnoddau a mabwysiadu technolegau glanach, mwy effeithlon,' Ac felly, byddwn yn dadlau bod galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i roi arian i bobl ar ffurf incwm sylfaenol i helpu'r newid hwn, ar y rhagdybiaeth y bydd gweithwyr yn cael eu heffeithio'n annheg, yn ddefnydd anghyfrifol o arian cyhoeddus. At hynny, mae'r syniad fod incwm sylfaenol i'r rhai a gyflogir mewn diwydiannau sy'n datgarboneiddio i'w helpu i brofi newid teg yn ddiffygiol, oherwydd ni fydd gan gyflogwyr unrhyw gymhelliant i gynyddu cyflogau a rhoi yn ôl i gyflogeion y manteision ariannol sy'n deillio o ddatgarboneiddio eu diwydiannau. Mae'n debygol o effeithio'n anghymesur ar y rhai mewn swyddi â chyflogau is yn fwy na swyddi sy'n talu'n well, gan gyfyngu ar y duedd tuag at isafswm cyflog uwch a fyddai'n debygol o gael ei ddarparu gan fusnesau sy'n symud tuag at allbynnau di-garbon. Rhaid inni fod yn ymwybodol y bydd y treial incwm sylfaenol hefyd yn rhoi arian i lawer o bobl sydd eisoes yn cael eu talu'n dda iawn am y gwaith, a bydd hyn yn cael ei wneud ar draul helpu rhai o'r bobl dlotaf yng Nghymru. Rhaid inni gwestiynu ble y mae pobl yn credu y daw Llywodraeth Cymru o hyd i'r arian ar gyfer y treial incwm sylfaenol estynedig hwn. Ni allant ei fenthyca, ac yn sicr ni ddylent allu gwneud hynny.