English: I thought that as well. There's a difference in tone and words, isn't there? Let me say this: I hear what my good friend and constituency neighbour has to say, and I understand the point that he makes. And I agree, at a terrible risk to myself, possibly, that putting the citizen at the centre of our democracy and how we deliver services doesn't simply depend on structures. I agree with that, as it happens. But we must be able to have structures that are resilient and sustainable in order to devolve those responsibilities and those services to them. We do need that and we don't have that at the moment, and local government accepts that. So, we need to find a structure that will enable us to devolve those powers and to provide for those responsibilities to reside at a more local level, and I'm happy to have that conversation. I've said on many occasions that I'm not wedded to any particular map and I'm not wedded to any particular structure. But what I am wedded to is sustainability. What I am wedded to its protecting the workforce. What I am wedded to is high-quality services, and what I am wedded to is effective democratic accountability. What you can't say is that you want all these objectives but that you're not prepared to will any means in order to do it. So, there needs to be a serious conversation about that, and I very much welcome the contribution from Monmouthshire on this matter, but what I will say to him very, very seriously is that, in order to achieve those things, the conversation must move on from an argument over a map and an argument over lines on a map. What he has described is very similar to the sort of ambition that I have, which demands change; it doesn't demand staying as we are. Staying as we are is the worst possible solution for Welsh local government, because that will mean that, over the coming years, whoever sits in this seat and whoever sits in this place will manage decline and not expansion. I want to see a renaissance of local government in Wales; I don't want to be responsible for its decline.
Welsh: Roeddwn i'n credu hynny hefyd. Mae yna wahaniaeth o ran cywair a geiriau, onid oes? Gadewch imi ddweud hyn: clywaf yr hyn sydd gan fy nghyfaill a fy nghymydog etholaeth i'w ddweud, a deallaf y pwynt y mae'n ei wneud. Ac rwy'n cytuno, er y perygl ofnadwy i mi fy hun o bosibl, nad yw rhoi'r dinesydd ynghanol ein democratiaeth a'r modd yr ydym yn darparu gwasanaethau yn dibynnu'n unig ar strwythurau. Cytunaf â hynny, fel mae'n digwydd. Ond rhaid inni allu cael strwythurau sy'n gadarn ac yn gynaliadwy er mwyn datganoli'r cyfrifoldebau a'r gwasanaethau iddynt. Rydym angen hynny ac nid oes gennym hynny ar hyn o bryd, ac mae llywodraeth leol yn derbyn hynny. Felly, mae angen inni ddod o hyd i strwythur a fydd yn ein galluogi i ddatganoli'r pwerau, ac i sicrhau bod y cyfrifoldebau hynny'n bodoli ar lefel fwy lleol, ac rwy'n hapus i gael y sgwrs honno. Rwyf wedi dweud ar sawl achlysur nad wyf yn gaeth i unrhyw fap penodol ac nid wyf yn gaeth i unrhyw strwythur penodol. Ond yr hyn rwy'n gaeth iddo yw cynaliadwyedd. Rwy'n ymrwymedig i warchod y gweithlu. Rwy'n ymrwymedig i wasanaethau o ansawdd uchel, ac rwy'n ymrwymedig i atebolrwydd democrataidd effeithiol. Yr hyn na allwch ei ddweud yw eich bod eisiau'r holl amcanion hyn ond nad ydych yn barod i dderbyn unrhyw fodd o'i wneud. Felly, mae angen cael sgwrs ddifrifol am hynny, ac rwy'n croesawu'n fawr y cyfraniad o sir Fynwy ar y mater hwn, ond rwyf am ddweud wrtho yn ddifrifol iawn fod yn rhaid i'r sgwrs, er mwyn cyflawni'r pethau hynny, symud ymlaen o'r ddadl ynglŷn â map a dadl ynglŷn â llinellau ar fap. Mae'r hyn a ddisgrifiodd yn debyg iawn i'r math o uchelgais sydd gennyf fi, un sy'n mynnu newid; nid yw'n galw am aros fel yr ydym. Aros fel yr ydym yw'r ateb gwaethaf posibl i lywodraeth leol yng Nghymru, oherwydd bydd hynny'n golygu, dros y blynyddoedd nesaf, y bydd pwy bynnag sy'n eistedd yn y sedd hon a phwy bynnag sy'n eistedd yn y lle hwn yn rheoli dirywiad ac nid ehangiad. Rwyf am weld dadeni llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru; nid wyf am fod yn gyfrifol am ei ddirywiad.