English: This Welsh Government's position is clear: we're very much committed to Wales being a nation of fair work and do not believe you should promote low wages as a reason for investing. And I do welcome the start of the Member's contribution, with his constructive suggestions around the work we're doing in the social care sector and the real living wage, but I note that, towards the end, he managed to, from a previous contribution, downgrade my trade union colleagues from being my trade union bosses to now being my trade union supervisors. But I'm sure Shavanah Taj would be delighted that Joel James agrees with her on one thing. But, in all seriousness, I think the point you raised at the start, Joel, around things taking time and there are problems along the way - . And I think that's one of the values of our social partnership working, not just with trade unions, but with employers from the public, private and voluntary sectors, bringing in people with that lived experience and expertise in different areas we're seeking to address and to move forward and develop a whole package around fair pay, which, you're absolutely right, is not just about your take-home pay; it's about the broader well-being and conditions around your work as well. Social partnership does enable us to do that, and it enabled us to do it during the pandemic, when we were able to come together as the health and safety forum, addressing the things around workplace risk assessments, and then they were implemented, and then we had a forum to come back to and say, 'Well, actually these things need tweaking for them to be much more effective in practice and to serve the purpose that they were intended to do.' On the points around the real living wage in social care, in my statement I did indicate that the real living wage was a starting point to immediately address some of those concerns that you highlighted around recruitment and retention as well, and the work programme of the social care fair work forum is now to look at those broader issues that you highlighted around what else could - . Because fair work, like I said, isn't just about your pay as a component part of that; it's about your broader work conditions. And you're absolutely right that we need to get to a position where this sector that we will probably all turn to at some point in our lifetime, and cares very much for our nearest and dearest - to make sure that it has the recognition, status and support that it deserves.
Welsh: Mae safbwynt Llywodraeth Cymru yn glir: rydym ni wedi ymrwymo'n fawr i sicrhau bod Cymru'n genedl o waith teg ac nid ydym ni'n credu y dylech chi hyrwyddo cyflogau isel fel rheswm dros fuddsoddi. Ac rwy'n croesawu dechrau cyfraniad yr Aelod, gyda'i awgrymiadau adeiladol ynghylch y gwaith yr ydym ni'n ei wneud yn y sector gofal cymdeithasol a'r cyflog byw gwirioneddol, ond rwy'n nodi ei fod, tua'r diwedd, wedi llwyddo, o gyfraniad blaenorol, i israddio fy nghydweithwyr yn yr undebau llafur o fod yn fy mhenaethiaid undebau llafur i fod yn fy ngoruchwylwyr undebau llafur nawr. Ond rwy'n siŵr y byddai Shavanah Taj wrth ei bodd bod Joel James yn cytuno â hi ar un peth. Ond, o ddifrif, rwy'n credu bod y pwynt y gwnaethoch chi ei godi ar y dechrau, Joel, ynghylch pethau'n cymryd amser a bod problemau ar hyd y ffordd - . Ac rwy'n credu mai dyna un o werthoedd ein gwaith partneriaeth gymdeithasol, nid gydag undebau llafur yn unig, ond gyda chyflogwyr o'r sectorau cyhoeddus, preifat a gwirfoddol, gan ddod â phobl sydd â'r profiad a'r arbenigedd bywyd mewn gwahanol feysydd yr ydym ni'n ceisio mynd i'r afael â nhw i mewn a symud ymlaen a datblygu pecyn cyfan o amgylch cyflog teg, nad yw, rydych chi'n hollol gywir, yn ymwneud â dim ond y cyflog a gewch; mae'n ymwneud â'r lles a'r amodau ehangach ynghylch eich gwaith hefyd. Mae partneriaeth gymdeithasol yn ein galluogi ni i wneud hynny, ac fe'n galluogodd ni i wneud hynny yn ystod y pandemig, pan oeddem ni'n gallu dod at ein gilydd fel y fforwm iechyd a diogelwch, ymdrin â'r pethau sy'n ymwneud ag asesiadau risg yn y gweithle, ac yna cawson nhw eu gweithredu, ac yna roedd gennym ni fforwm i ddod yn ôl ato a dweud, 'Wel, mewn gwirionedd mae angen addasu'r pethau hyn er mwyn iddyn nhw fod yn llawer mwy effeithiol yn ymarferol a chyflawni'r diben yr oedd wedi'i fwriadu ar eu cyfer.' O ran y pwyntiau ynghylch y cyflog byw gwirioneddol mewn gofal cymdeithasol, yn fy natganiad, nodais fod y cyflog byw gwirioneddol yn fan cychwyn i fynd i'r afael ar unwaith â rhai o'r pryderon hynny y gwnaethoch chi dynnu sylw atyn nhw ynghylch recriwtio a chadw staff hefyd, a rhaglen waith y fforwm gwaith teg gofal cymdeithasol nawr yw ystyried y materion ehangach hynny y gwnaethoch chi dynnu sylw atyn nhw ynghylch beth arall a allai - . Oherwydd nid yw gwaith teg, fel y dywedais i, yn ymwneud â'ch cyflog yn unig fel rhan o hynny; mae'n ymwneud â'ch amodau gwaith ehangach. Ac rydych chi'n hollol gywir bod angen i ni gyrraedd sefyllfa lle'r ydym yn gwneud yn siŵr bod gan y sector hwn, y mae'n debygol y byddwn ni i gyd yn troi ato rywbryd yn ystod ein hoes, ac sy'n gofalu'n fawr iawn am ein hanwyliaid - y gydnabyddiaeth, y statws a'r gefnogaeth y mae'n eu haeddu.