English: I agree with Joyce Watson; we do need to have a reasoned debate about the health services, and I believe that this debate has been reasoned. There have been some passionate speeches, of course, inevitably, because people do feel very, very strongly that, in Pembrokeshire in particular, they are forgotten, neglected and abandoned by the health service and that their needs are not being properly looked after now, let alone in the future if ever these plans are put into effect. Nobody denies the intractable problems that the health service faces throughout the whole of the United Kingdom - funding is a problem everywhere and needs, as we know, are growing. We have a national health service, but the national health service is nothing if it's not also a local service. You've only got to look at a map to see the geography of the Hywel Dda area. Pembrokeshire sticks out into the sea, and I think that the people of Pembrokeshire feel as though Hywel Dda are actually digging a great big moat between Pembrokeshire and Carmarthenshire and Ceredigion and that they are drifting further and further from the centre of operations. Nobody can underestimate the degree of genuine feeling of alarm and fear that is represented by this unprecedented petition that we are debating today. The fundamental problem that we are facing here is that the health service is totally undemocratic, and the major decisions are taken by technocrats who are not elected and we can't dismiss, and are ultimately not accountable. The community health councils are not elected and they can easily be stuffed with compliant members who won't live up to the expectations of the people who they are there to serve. This exercise in consultation that we're looking at today is, I think, an example of this also. Lee Waters referred to it as an impenetrable document and I absolutely agree with him - I've got it here. You only have to look at it to see that the decision, effectively, had been taken even before the consultation was started. It's no surprise that in paragraph 1.106 that the conclusion is that public support for what the health board is now going to endorse was driven by location. Well, what would you expect? People want hospital services that are close to where they live. I mean, it's the most obvious fact that you could imagine; you don't need a consultation with all its cost in order to arrive at this conclusion. Just a few paragraphs before that, the health board says: 'It is important to recognise that there is very strong public support for another alternative across many parts of Pembrokeshire'. In other words, 'none of the above' is what people in Pembrokeshire want - that's just not on offer. If this was a true consultation, there would've been the alternative that might've been acceptable to the people of Pembrokeshire. What an extraordinary consultation that it's proved to be. It's a 'nonsultation' as far as most people in Pembrokeshire are concerned, and that, I think, is totally unacceptable. I totally agree, also, with what Rhun ap Iorwerth said on behalf of Plaid Cymru. The people have a right to expect that their main services that they're going to need, particularly in rural areas where transport links are poor, poverty levels are higher and the age of the population tends to be in the higher regions as well - they have a right to expect that their main services can be accessible within a reasonable distance. And I agree, also, with what Helen Mary Jones said, and others have alluded to also, in that we mustn't put the cart before the horse. We mustn't plan to close down major facilities that are fulfilling a vital need until we have got the building blocks in place for what is going to replace them. So, this, I think, has been handled in a most insensitive way. And then, of course, we come to the elephant in the room in the form of the health Secretary, because ultimately, Hywel Dda is now under his supervision, just as Betsi Cadwaladr is in north Wales, and the Welsh Government can't simply wash its hands of responsibility for what's happening here. Ultimately, it's the responsibility of the Welsh Government to provide the funds for each of the health board areas, and I don't underestimate the problems that the finance Secretary has in making his numbers add up. It's impossible to do everything that people expect and want from the health service. Socialism is the language of priorities, as somebody once famously said a long time ago - indeed, I think, if I remember correctly, the man who actually founded the health service, Aneurin Bevan. Well, the people of Pembrokeshire expect that they will be a priority of the Welsh Government and if they are abandoned by the health Secretary, then he will go down and be remembered not as Aneurin Bevan is remembered today, as the saviour and founder of the health service, but he will go down as the Pontius Pilate of the health service, who ultimately failed the people of Pembrokeshire.
Welsh: Rwy'n cytuno â Joyce Watson; mae angen i ni gael dadl resymol am y gwasanaethau iechyd, a chredaf fod y ddadl hon wedi bod yn rhesymol. Bu rhai areithiau angerddol, wrth gwrs, yn anochel, oherwydd mae pobl yn teimlo'n gryf iawn, yn Sir Benfro yn arbennig, eu bod yn cael eu hanghofio, eu hesgeuluso a'u hamddifadu gan y gwasanaeth iechyd ac nad yw eu hanghenion yn cael sylw priodol yn awr, heb sôn am yn y dyfodol pe bai'r cynlluniau hyn yn cael eu rhoi ar waith. Nid oes neb yn gwadu'r problemau anhydrin sy'n wynebu'r gwasanaeth iechyd ledled y Deyrnas Unedig - mae cyllid yn broblem ym mhob man ac mae'r anghenion, fel y gwyddom, yn tyfu. Mae gennym wasanaeth iechyd gwladol, ond nid yw'r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yn ddim os nad yw'n wasanaeth lleol hefyd. Nid oes ond angen i chi edrych ar fap i weld daearyddiaeth ardal Hywel Dda. Mae Sir Benfro'n gwthio allan i'r môr, ac rwy'n credu bod pobl Sir Benfro yn teimlo fel pe bai Hywel Dda yn palu anferth o ffos rhwng Sir Benfro a Sir Gaerfyrddin a Cheredigion a'u bod yn arnofio ymhellach ac ymhellach i ffwrdd o ganol pethau. Ni all neb fychanu'r ymdeimlad dilys o bryder ac ofn a gynrychiolir gan y ddeiseb ddigynsail hon yr ydym yn ei thrafod heddiw. Y broblem sylfaenol sy'n ein hwynebu yma yw bod y gwasanaeth iechyd yn gwbl annemocrataidd, a chaiff y penderfyniadau pwysig eu gwneud gan dechnocratiaid anetholedig na allwn eu diswyddo, ac anatebol yn y pen draw. Ni chaiff y cynghorau iechyd cymuned eu hethol a gellir yn hawdd eu llenwi ag aelodau ufudd nad ydynt yn cyrraedd disgwyliadau'r bobl y maent yno i'w gwasanaethu. Rwy'n credu bod yr ymarfer hwn o ymgynghoriad rydym yn edrych arno heddiw yn enghraifft o hyn hefyd. Cyfeiriodd Lee Waters ati fel dogfen annealladwy ac rwy'n cytuno'n llwyr ag ef - mae hi gennyf yn y fan hon. Nid oes ond angen ichi edrych arni i weld bod y penderfyniad, i bob pwrpas, wedi'i wneud hyd yn oed cyn i'r ymgynghoriad ddechrau. Nid yw'n syndod ym mharagraff 1.106 mai'r casgliad yw bod cefnogaeth y cyhoedd i'r hyn y mae'r bwrdd iechyd yn mynd i'w hyrwyddo bellach wedi'i yrru gan leoliad. Wel, beth fyddech chi'n ei ddisgwyl? Mae pobl am gael gwasanaethau ysbyty sy'n agos at ble maent yn byw. Hynny yw, mae'n ffaith amlycach na'r un y gallech ei dychmygu; nid oes angen ymgynghoriad â'i holl gost er mwyn dod i'r casgliad hwn. Ychydig baragraffau cyn hynny, mae'r bwrdd iechyd yn dweud: Mae'n bwysig cydnabod bod cefnogaeth gyhoeddus gref iawn i ddewis arall amgen ar draws sawl rhan o Sir Benfro. Mewn geiriau eraill, nid yw pobl Sir Benfro eisiau'r un o'r dewisiadau - ac nid yw hynny'n cael ei gynnig. Pe bai hwn yn ymgynghoriad go iawn, byddai wedi cynnwys y dewis amgen a allai fod wedi bod yn dderbyniol i bobl Sir Benfro. Mae wedi bod yn ymgynghoriad eithriadol. Mae'n 'anymgynghoriad' i'r rhan fwyaf o bobl yn Sir Benfro, ac mae hynny, fe gredaf, yn gwbl annerbyniol. Rwy'n cytuno'n llwyr hefyd â'r hyn a ddywedodd Rhun ap Iorwerth ar ran Plaid Cymru. Mae gan bobl hawl i ddisgwyl bod y prif wasanaethau y maent yn mynd i fod eu hangen, yn enwedig mewn ardaloedd gwledig lle mae'r cysylltiadau trafnidiaeth yn wael, lefelau tlodi'n uwch ac oedran y boblogaeth yn tueddu i fod yn uwch hefyd - mae ganddynt hawl i ddisgwyl i'w gwasanaethau fod o fewn pellter rhesymol. Rwy'n cytuno hefyd gyda'r hyn a ddywedodd Helen Mary Jones, ac mae eraill wedi cyfeirio at hyn hefyd, na allwn roi'r drol o flaen y ceffyl. Rhaid inni beidio â chynllunio i gau cyfleusterau pwysig sy'n diwallu angen hanfodol hyd nes y bydd gennym y blociau adeiladu ar gyfer yr hyn sy'n mynd i gymryd eu lle. Felly, credaf fod hyn wedi cael ei drin yn y ffordd fwyaf ansensitif. Ac yna, wrth gwrs, down at yr eliffant yn yr ystafell ar ffurf yr Ysgrifennydd iechyd, oherwydd yn y pen draw, mae Hywel Dda bellach o dan ei oruchwyliaeth ef, fel y mae Betsi Cadwaladr yng ngogledd Cymru, ac ni all Llywodraeth Cymru olchi ei dwylo rhag bod yn gyfrifol am yr hyn sy'n digwydd yma. Yn y pen draw, cyfrifoldeb Llywodraeth Cymru yw darparu'r arian ar gyfer pob un o ardaloedd y byrddau iechyd, ac nid wyf yn bychanu'r problemau sy'n wynebu'r Ysgrifennydd cyllid wrth wneud i'w rifau wneud synnwyr. Mae'n amhosibl gwneud popeth y mae pobl yn ei ddisgwyl ac am ei gael gan y gwasanaeth iechyd. Iaith blaenoriaethau yw sosialaeth fel y dywedodd rhywun enwog amser maith yn ôl - yn wir, os cofiaf yn iawn, rwy'n credu mai'r dyn a sefydlodd y gwasanaeth iechyd, Aneurin Bevan, a ddywedodd hynny mewn gwirionedd. Wel, mae pobl Sir Benfro yn disgwyl y byddant yn flaenoriaeth i Lywodraeth Cymru ac os cânt eu hamddifadu gan yr Ysgrifennydd iechyd, caiff ei gofio nid fel y cofir am Aneurin Bevan heddiw, fel achubydd a sylfaenydd y gwasanaeth iechyd, ond fel Pontiws Peilat y gwasanaeth iechyd, a wnaeth gam â phobl Sir Benfro yn y pen draw.