English: Llywydd, the first proposition that Simon Thomas made, I think, is an entirely reasonable statement of how a disagreement between two parties can be understood. If the position of his party is that they are welcoming the ground that has been gained but believe it doesn't go far enough and that there's more that could have been done, that seems to me entirely reasonable for them to take. That isn't what I think I've heard from other Plaid Cymru members, I have to say; they have described what we have achieved in very demeaning terms. The way Simon Thomas put it, that what we have achieved is something that he welcomes - I don't want to put words into his mouth - but that there is more that he thinks ought to have been done and therefore he can't accept it as it is, that seems to me to be an entirely proper way to put it and, indeed, that is the way that Michael Russell put it when he made his statement in the Scottish Parliament yesterday. And, in that sense, there is a disagreement between the way that the Government here has concluded and the way that Simon Thomas would have wished to see things. We do put weight on the inter-governmental agreement, because we think that the effort that went into securing it, the public way in which it has received commitment, means that we can put some trust on it. Simon Thomas says it doesn't deal sufficiently with the rights of the Parliament here, and I see the point he made. It was, indeed, a point that was made by David Rees, but I provide the same answer: that it would have been an odd thing indeed for me, as a member of the Government, to have made commitments on behalf of the legislature in an agreement between Governments. What we now need to do is to do the work that David Rees pointed to, and to make sure that the parliamentary processes that go alongside the inter-governmental agreement are agreed here - not agreed between the Scottish Government and the UK Government and the Welsh Government, but agreed here, on the parliamentary side, where those responsibilities will lie. Simon Thomas made three points at the end. As I say, I don't for a minute myself believe that this will take eight long years, as he put it, for powers to return here. Let me just say to the Assembly just what hard work it was to get an agreement that English Ministers would not use the powers while these things were in the freezer. Do you think they just signed up to that on the spur of the moment? I can tell you that they were very reluctant indeed to be in that position, and they will want to be out of that position, as we do, as fast as we can possibly agree it. He asks about what does 'normally' mean. Well, 'not normally' is not used in this agreement for the first time, either in legislation or inter-governmental agreements. It means here what it means in all the other places where that phrase is used, and the way that this - [ Interruption.] I think that he will struggle to find too many examples - I'm sure there will be some - where that way of working has been used to the disadvantage of this legislature, and we would expect the commitments that have been made here, echoing, as they do, that phrase from other ways in which legislation and agreements are drawn up, to operate just as effectively here as they have in other places.
Welsh: Lywydd, mae'r honiad cyntaf a wnaeth Simon Thomas, rwy'n meddwl, yn ddatganiad hollol resymol o sut y gellir deall anghytundeb rhwng dau barti. Os mai safbwynt ei blaid yw eu bod yn croesawu'r tir a enillwyd ond yn credu nad yw'n mynd yn ddigon pell a bod mwy y gellid bod wedi ei wneud, mae hynny'n ymddangos i mi yn gwbl resymol. Nid dyna y credaf i mi ei glywed gan aelodau eraill Plaid Cymru, rhaid imi ddweud; maent hwy wedi disgrifio'r hyn a gyflawnwyd gennym mewn termau diraddiol iawn. Mae'r ffordd y rhoddodd Simon Thomas y peth, fod yr hyn yr ydym wedi'i gyflawni yn rhywbeth y mae'n ei groesawu - nid wyf am roi geiriau yn ei geg - ond bod mwy y mae'n credu y dylid bod wedi'i wneud, ac felly na all ei dderbyn fel y mae, mae hynny'n ymddangos yn ffordd gwbl briodol o'i roi, ac yn wir, dyna'r ffordd y rhoddodd Michael Russell y peth pan wnaeth ei ddatganiad yn Senedd yr Alban ddoe. Ac yn yr ystyr honno, ceir anghytundeb rhwng y ffordd y mae'r Llywodraeth yma wedi dod i gytundeb a'r ffordd y byddai Simon Thomas wedi dymuno gweld pethau. Rydym yn rhoi pwys ar y cytundeb rhynglywodraethol, oherwydd credwn fod yr ymdrech i'w sicrhau, y ffordd gyhoeddus yr ymrwymwyd iddo, yn golygu y gallwn ymddiried rhywfaint ynddo. Mae Simon Thomas yn dweud nad yw'n ymdrin yn ddigonol â hawliau'r Senedd yma, ac rwy'n gweld y pwynt a wnaeth. Yn wir, roedd yn bwynt a wnaed gan David Rees, ond rwy'n rhoi'r un ateb: y byddai wedi bod yn beth rhyfedd yn wir i mi, fel aelod o'r Llywodraeth, fod wedi gwneud ymrwymiadau ar ran y ddeddfwrfa mewn cytundeb rhwng Llywodraethau. Yr hyn sydd angen inni ei wneud yn awr yw gwneud y gwaith y cyfeiriodd David Rees ato, a gwneud yn siŵr fod y prosesau seneddol sy'n mynd ochr yn ochr â chytundeb rhynglywodraethol yn cael eu cytuno yma - nid eu cytuno rhwng Llywodraeth yr Alban a Llywodraeth y DU a Llywodraeth Cymru, ond eu cytuno yma, ar yr ochr seneddol, lle bydd y cyfrifoldebau hynny. Gwnaeth Simon Thomas dri phwynt ar y diwedd. Fel y dywedaf, nid wyf am funud yn credu fy hun y bydd yn cymryd wyth mlynedd, fel y dywedodd, i bwerau ddychwelyd yma. Gadewch imi ddweud wrth y Cynulliad pa mor galed oedd y gwaith i gael cytundeb na fyddai Gweinidogion Lloegr yn defnyddio'r pwerau tra bod y pethau hyn yn y rhewgell. A ydych chi'n meddwl eu bod wedi cytuno i hynny yn ddifyfyr? Gallaf ddweud wrthych eu bod yn amharod iawn yn wir i fod yn y sefyllfa honno, a byddant am ddod o'r sefyllfa honno, fel ninnau, mor gyflym ag y gallwn gytuno i wneud hynny. Mae'n gofyn beth yw ystyr 'fel arfer'. Wel, nid yw 'nid fel arfer' yn cael ei ddefnyddio yn y cytundeb hwn am y tro cyntaf, naill ai mewn deddfwriaeth neu gytundebau rhynglywodraethol. Mae'n golygu yma yr hyn y mae'n ei olygu yn yr holl leoedd eraill y defnyddir yr ymadrodd hwnnw, a'r ffordd y mae - [ Torri ar draws.] Credaf y bydd yn cael trafferth canfod gormod o enghreifftiau - rwy'n siŵr y bydd rhai - lle y defnyddiwyd y ffordd honno o weithio er anfantais i'r ddeddfwrfa hon, a byddem yn disgwyl i'r ymrwymiadau a wnaed yma, gan adleisio fel y maent yn ei wneud yr ymadrodd hwnnw o'r ffyrdd eraill y llunnir deddfwriaeth a chytundebau, weithredu yr un mor effeithiol yma ag y maent wedi ei wneud mewn mannau eraill.