English: In principle, I think that's a fair point, Andrew. There was, though, reference, I think in Dai's contribution, to this having first been looked at two and a half years ago, and I welcome what you said in your speech, but I did find it contradictory in one bit in that you said that you wanted to leave this in the hands of the Commission and then, at the end of your speech, you said that it should be for the standards committee to take things forward. And it does actually give me some confidence that you are a member of the standards committee, and I have confidence in David's work on that, and I associate myself with what Jane Hutt said about Jayne Bryant and how well she chairs that committee. So, I do hope you will take this forward, and I do hope you will take it forward quickly and actually drive a result and that we're not going to sit, falling between two stools of whether it's the standards committee or the Commission doing it. In terms of Caroline's history of some of the lobbying and the scandals that we have seen, at least at a UK level, and some of the changes those have led to, I was myself a little surprised by the point of order because I heard a very clear reference to a particular example from Caroline, and that was the Bernie Ecclestone example. And I think that the history of this is accepted - that shortly after the Labour Government was elected in 1997, the Cabinet took a decision to exempt Formula 1 from a ban on tobacco advertising and, shortly after that, it came out that the Labour Party, had, shortly prior to that, accepted £1 million from Bernie Ecclestone. So, to say that there's no allegation of wrongdoing or no evidence of anything, I don't think is right. I think the Labour Party were right to give that £1 million back, and, to be charitable, perhaps it was a certain naivety in terms of a new Prime Minister from a party that had been out of power for a long time. And I'm glad that we have seen some of the changes at the UK level that we have seen since that point. Can I thank Mandy for her succinct speech when she said democracy should not be for sale? Jayne, I think, sort of welcomed this debate, and I thank you for that, and I acknowledge that you and your committee have been working on this. I hope you will continue to work on it and drive it forward to a result. I commented before on Dai, and I thank Plaid for their support. Neil McEvoy then enlightened us with some of his particular history around the lobbying issues and his dealings with Plaid, albeit they were disputed. Perhaps they should take Andrew's approach of minuting all meetings that may be relevant lobbying and publishing the results. And not only does it show Andrew R.T. doing his work, but it shows those organisations coming in to lobby politicians, which is their job. So, to bring transparency to those dealings is, I think, a very good thing. I thank Jane Hutt for her response to the debate and associate myself with the remarks she made about Jayne Bryant and her committee. There are a few substantive points I would just like to make before closing. Some concern around the cost of a lobbyist register was expressed, not this evening, but I remember previously Mike Hedges mentioning this cost issue and, I think, saying that it could be paid for by the lobbyists who would be signing up to that register. And as my colleague Caroline Jones said, we should not put a price on democracy. Some have argued there have been relatively few cases of lobbying breaches in Wales in the past. I think it's important to make the point that, without a lobbyist register, how can we actually gauge the extent and nature of lobbying in Wales? It's misguided, in my view, to say that if we haven't had many public lobbying scandals in Wales that means we shouldn't have a register. This building hasn't been attacked, as far as I'm aware, but should we do away with security? Of course we shouldn't. If we did not have security officers checking bags, how would an airport discover contraband items? In order to find breaches, you need to look for them. You certainly need to be aware of from where they may come, who is regulated, and for what. Jayne raised appropriate definitional issues, but I would say people in this Chamber argue for more powers for the Assembly and, as we get those powers, we can expect there to be more lobbying. We need to be ahead of the curve and not behind, and to make sure that rules are clear for bodies seeking dialogue with Ministers and senior officials. It's those Ministers and senior officials of Welsh Government that my party think are key for consideration and for registration of those activities. This isn't about demonising lobbyists or presuming guilt. We accept lobbying is a crucial part of a healthy democracy, but it must be regulated. We do not want to live under a shadow where undue influence is presumed. We must make sure that undue influence is curtailed. I welcome that Public Affairs Cymru have their code of conduct and that lobbying bodies want to establish good practice. A statutory register would reinforce that, and I therefore encourage all Members to support our motion tonight.
Welsh: Mewn egwyddor, rwy'n credu bod hwnnw'n bwynt teg, Andrew. Fodd bynnag, roedd cyfeiriad, fe gredaf, yng nghyfraniad Dai, at y ffaith bod hyn wedi cael ei ystyried am y tro cyntaf ddwy flynedd a hanner yn ôl, a chroesawaf yr hyn a ddywedoch chi yn eich araith, ond fe'i cefais yn anghyson mewn un rhan pan ddywedoch eich bod am adael hyn yn nwylo'r Comisiwn ac yna, ar ddiwedd eich araith, fe ddywedoch chi mai'r pwyllgor safonau a ddylai symud pethau yn eu blaenau. Ac mae'n rhoi rhywfaint o hyder i mi eich bod yn aelod o'r pwyllgor safonau, ac mae gennyf ffydd yng ngwaith David ar hynny, ac ategaf yr hyn a ddywedodd Jane Hutt am Jayne Bryant a pha mor dda y mae'n cadeirio'r pwyllgor hwnnw. Felly, rwy'n gobeithio y byddwch yn bwrw ymlaen â hyn, ac rwy'n gobeithio y byddwch yn bwrw ymlaen ag ef yn gyflym ac yn sicrhau canlyniad ac nad ydym yn mynd i eistedd, gan ddisgyn rhwng dwy stôl o ran p'un ai'r pwyllgor safonau neu'r Comisiwn sy'n ei wneud. O ran hanes Caroline o rywfaint o'r lobïo a'r sgandalau a welsom, o leiaf ar lefel y DU, a rhai o'r newidiadau a ddeilliodd o hynny, cefais fy synnu braidd gan y pwynt o drefn oherwydd clywais gyfeiriad clir iawn at enghraifft benodol gan Caroline, sef enghraifft Bernie Ecclestone. A chredaf fod hanes hyn yn cael ei dderbyn - fod y Cabinet, yn fuan ar ôl ethol y Llywodraeth Lafur yn 1997, wedi penderfynu eithrio Fformiwla 1 o waharddiad ar hysbysebu tybaco ac yn fuan ar ôl hynny, daeth allan fod y Blaid Lafur wedi derbyn £1 filiwn ychydig cyn hynny gan Bernie Ecclestone. Felly, nid wyf yn credu ei bod hi'n gywir dweud nad oes unrhyw honiad o gamwedd nac unrhyw dystiolaeth o unrhyw beth. Rwy'n credu bod y Blaid Lafur yn iawn i roi'r £1 filiwn yn ôl, ac i fod yn garedig, efallai mai rhywfaint o naïfrwydd ydoedd ar ran Prif Weinidog newydd plaid a oedd wedi bod allan o bŵer ers cyhyd. Ac rwy'n falch ein bod wedi gweld rhai o'r newidiadau ar lefel y DU a welsom ers y pwynt hwnnw. A gaf fi ddiolch i Mandy am ei haraith gryno pan ddywedodd na ddylai democratiaeth fod ar werth? Credaf fod Jayne wedi rhyw lun o groesawu'r ddadl hon, a diolch ichi am hynny, ac rwy'n cydnabod eich bod chi a'ch pwyllgor wedi bod yn gweithio ar hyn. Gobeithio y byddwch yn parhau i weithio arno ac yn ei yrru ymlaen i sicrhau canlyniad. Soniais am Dai eisoes, a diolch i Blaid Cymru am eu cefnogaeth. Yna, cawsom ein goleuo gan Neil McEvoy a rhywfaint o'i hanes penodol ynglŷn â'r materion lobïo a'i ymwneud â Phlaid Cymru, er bod anghytundeb yn eu cylch. Efallai y dylent fabwysiadu dull Andrew o nodi pob cyfarfod a allai fod yn lobïo perthnasol a chyhoeddi'r canlyniadau. Ac nid yn unig ei fod yn dangos bod Andrew R.T. yn gwneud ei waith, ond mae'n dangos pa sefydliadau sy'n dod i mewn i lobïo gwleidyddion, sef eu gwaith. Felly, rwy'n credu bod sicrhau tryloywder yn y trafodion hynny yn beth da iawn. Diolch i Jane Hutt am ei hymateb i'r ddadl ac rwy'n ategu'r sylwadau a wnaeth am Jayne Bryant a'i phwyllgor. Mae ambell bwynt o sylwedd yr hoffwn eu gwneud cyn gorffen. Mynegwyd rhywfaint o bryder ynglŷn â chost cofrestr lobïwyr, nid heno, ond cofiaf yn gynharach fod Mike Hedges wedi sôn am y gost, ac yn dweud, rwy'n credu, y gallai'r lobïwyr a fyddai'n llofnodi'r gofrestr ei thalu. Ac fel y dywedodd fy nghyd-Aelod, Caroline Jones, ni ddylem roi pris ar ddemocratiaeth. Mae rhai wedi dadlau mai nifer cymharol fach o achosion o dorri rheolau lobïo a fu yng Nghymru yn y gorffennol. Rwy'n credu ei bod yn bwysig gwneud y pwynt, heb gofrestr lobïwyr, sut y gallwn fesur graddau a natur lobïo yng Nghymru? Yn fy marn i, mae'n gyfeiliornus i ddweud os nad ydym wedi cael llawer o sgandalau lobïo cyhoeddus yng Nghymru, fod hynny'n golygu na ddylem gael cofrestr. Ni ymosodwyd ar yr adeilad hwn hyd y gwn, ond a ddylem gael gwared ar fesurau ddiogelwch? Wrth gwrs na ddylem. Pe na bai gennym swyddogion diogelwch yn archwilio bagiau, sut fyddai maes awyr yn darganfod eitemau gwaharddedig? Er mwyn dod o hyd i achosion o dorri rheolau, mae angen i chi chwilio amdanynt. Yn sicr, mae angen ichi fod yn ymwybodol o ble y gallent ddod, pwy a reoleiddir, ac ar gyfer beth. Nododd Jayne bwyntiau diffiniol priodol, ond buaswn yn dweud bod pobl yn y Siambr hon yn dadlau dros fwy o bwerau i'r Cynulliad ac wrth inni gael y pwerau hynny, gallwn ddisgwyl gweld mwy o lobïo. Mae angen inni fod ar y blaen ac nid ar ei hôl hi, a gwneud yn siŵr bod rheolau'n glir i gyrff sy'n chwilio am ddeialog gyda Gweinidogion ac uwch swyddogion. Y Gweinidogion hynny ac uwch swyddogion Llywodraeth Cymru y cred fy mhlaid ei bod yn allweddol eu hystyried a chofrestru'r gweithgareddau hynny. Nid pardduo lobïwyr neu ragdybio euogrwydd yw hyn. Rydym yn derbyn bod lobïo yn rhan hanfodol o ddemocratiaeth iach, ond mae'n rhaid ei reoleiddio. Nid ydym am fyw dan gysgod lle rhagdybir dylanwad gormodol. Rhaid inni wneud yn siŵr y cyfyngir ar ddylanwad gormodol. Rwy'n croesawu'r ffaith bod gan Materion Cyhoeddus Cymru eu cod ymddygiad a bod cyrff lobïo am sefydlu arferion da. Byddai cofrestr statudol yn atgyfnerthu hynny, ac o'r herwydd, rwy'n annog yr holl Aelodau i gefnogi ein cynnig heno.