English: It's not at full capacity, I completely agree with you, but many of the staff there have had experience of working in this type of prison before and were informing their answers to me not just on their experience in Berwyn but where they'd been previously. As I say, I did ask those questions about the burdens on local services, and they did fit with what we'd heard in the debate coming from Welsh Government. I appreciate that that's contestable as well. But I got to see the prisoner accommodation and a whole range of facilities. I won't go into the whole range of them. They were impressive, as you might expect. I saw the health centre, which was particularly impressive, which was staffed and supported by the prison service themselves, not by the NHS, which fed into those questions about how public services might be affected by this. But I've got to say that the most impressive thing about this visit was the interaction between the prisoners and the staff, which include many women staff, incidentally. It's a completely different culture, based on dignity and respect - on relationships between human beings and not that negative captive and captor sort of set-up that perhaps we associate with prisons. And I really don't want us to overlook this in the very specific question of Baglan and whether that's a suitable location. One of the most important relationships we discussed was that with the local residents, because there were strong objections to the site in Wrexham at the time, and you can see why. The area's not the same as Baglan, but there are similarities in that it's on the edge of an industrial estate, it's next door to small businesses and adjacent to a housing estate. In terms of visual impact, there's no getting away from this: it's a functional prison; it's not the Taj Mahal. But there has been some success in working with the residents in the housing estate independently of local councillors in helping them understand how the prison works and allaying fears about public services, what happens post release and that sort of thing. I think that might be what the petitioners are talking about when they talk about 'associated problems'. I think it's referred to in the petition. The management there realises that it will take some time to persuade everyone of their commitment to be good neighbours and contributors to the community. I did receive some evidence that there'd been some small business development on the back of the prison, but I didn't have time to explore that, so I'm not going to introduce that as a material point today. I don't expect the impressive number of signatories to this petition will change their views. You're right, David, it's a really impressive campaign. But in sharing their views directly with the MOJ, it's just sensible to be prepared for other views that the MOJ will have to take into account. I'm a bit disappointed that these roadshows that we were expecting have been delayed until the new year - I've just had that confirmed - but it does give time for all the interested parties to marshal and test any new evidence. I think the First Minister yesterday could have told us who the beneficiaries of the covenant on the land are. Knowing that will help interested parties so that they can take a view on the likelihood of enforcement of any breach, and I'm pleased that the MOJ has now responded to that Welsh Government letter referred to yesterday, although, of course, I haven't seen it. Just finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, the critical arguments against development will be in the domain of planning, and I ask: is it really likely that this land will change hands for that purpose before there is certainty on planning permission? As we know, no application has been made and, as we know, the petitioners have material arguments on this side - David Rees has mentioned some of those - and they will not be considered lightly by the local authority. They dare not consider them lightly, should it get that far. Thank you.
Welsh: Nid yw'n llawn, rwy'n cytuno'n llwyr â chi, ond mae llawer o'r staff yno wedi cael profiad o weithio yn y math hwn o carchar yn flaenorol ac roeddent yn fy ateb ar sail y lleoedd roeddent wedi bod ynddynt yn flaenorol yn ogystal â'u profiad yng ngharchar Berwyn. Fel rwy'n dweud, gofynnais y cwestiynau hynny ynglŷn â'r beichiau ar wasanaethau lleol, gan eu bod yn cyd-fynd â'r hyn a glywsom yn y ddadl gan Lywodraeth Cymru. Rwy'n derbyn bod modd dadlau yn erbyn hynny hefyd. Ond cefais weld llety'r carcharorion ac ystod gyfan o gyfleusterau. Nid af i fanylu ynghylch yr ystod gyfan ohonynt. Roeddent yn drawiadol, fel y gallech ddisgwyl. Gwelais y ganolfan iechyd, a oedd yn arbennig o drawiadol, a gâi ei staffio a'i chefnogi gan y gwasanaeth carchardai eu hunain, nid gan y GIG, sy'n bwydo i mewn i'r cwestiynau ynglŷn â sut y gallai gwasanaethau cyhoeddus gael eu heffeithio gan hyn. Ond mae'n rhaid i mi ddweud mai'r rhyngweithio rhwng y staff, sy'n cynnwys llawer o staff benywaidd gyda llaw, oedd y peth mwyaf trawiadol am yr ymweliad. Mae'n ddiwylliant hollol wahanol, yn seiliedig ar urddas a pharch - ar y berthynas rhwng bodau dynol ac nid y math o strwythur negyddol rhwng y sawl a garcharwyd a'r sawl sy'n ei garcharu rydym yn ei gysylltu â charchardai o bosibl. Ac nid wyf eisiau inni ddiystyru hyn yn y cwestiwn penodol iawn ynghylch Baglan a pha un a yw'n lleoliad addas. Un o'r cysylltiadau pwysicaf a drafodwyd gennym oedd y berthynas â thrigolion lleol, oherwydd roedd gwrthwynebiad cryf i'r safle yn Wrecsam ar y pryd, a gallwch weld pam. Nid yw'r ardal yr un fath â Baglan, ond ceir tebygrwydd yn yr ystyr ei bod ar gyrion ystâd ddiwydiannol, y drws nesaf i fusnesau bach a ger ystâd o dai. O ran yr effaith weledol, nid oes modd dianc rhag hyn: carchar gweithredol ydyw, nid y Taj Mahal. Ond cafwyd rhywfaint o lwyddiant wrth weithio gyda'r trigolion yn yr ystâd dai yn annibynnol ar gynghorwyr lleol i'w helpu i ddeall sut y mae'r carchar yn gweithio a thawelu ofnau ynghylch gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, beth sy'n digwydd ar ôl i bobl gael eu rhyddhau a'r math hwnnw o beth. Credaf efallai mai am hynny y mae'r deisebwyr yn sôn wrth gyfeirio at 'broblemau sy'n gysylltiedig'. Rwy'n credu bod y ddeiseb yn cyfeirio at hynny. Mae'r rheolwyr yno'n sylweddoli y bydd yn cymryd peth amser i ddwyn perswâd ar bawb ynglŷn â'u hymrwymiad i fod yn gymdogion da ac i gyfrannu yn y gymuned. Cefais dystiolaeth fod rhywfaint o fusnesau bach wedi datblygu yn sgil y carchar, ond ni chefais amser i ymchwilio i hynny, felly nid wyf yn bwriadu cyflwyno hynny fel pwynt perthnasol heddiw. Nid wyf yn disgwyl y bydd y nifer trawiadol a lofnododd y ddeiseb hon yn newid eu barn. Rydych yn iawn, David, mae'n ymgyrch drawiadol iawn. Ond drwy rannu eu barn yn uniongyrchol â'r Weinyddiaeth Gyfiawnder, mae'n gwneud synnwyr i fod yn barod am safbwyntiau eraill y bydd yn rhaid i'r Weinyddiaeth Gyfiawnder eu hystyried. Rwyf braidd yn siomedig fod y sioeau teithiol roeddem yn eu disgwyl wedi eu gohirio tan y flwyddyn newydd - mae hynny newydd gael ei gadarnhau i mi - ond mae'n rhoi amser i bawb sydd â diddordeb alw am dystiolaeth newydd a'i phrofi. Credaf y gallai Prif Weinidog Cymru fod wedi dweud wrthym ddoe pwy yw buddiolwyr y cyfamod ar y tir. Bydd gwybod hynny'n helpu pawb sydd â diddordeb fel y gallant ffurfio barn ar ba mor debygol y rhoddir camau gorfodi ar waith mewn perthynas ag unrhyw achos o dorri'r cyfamod, ac rwy'n falch fod y Weinyddiaeth Gyfiawnder wedi ymateb i'r llythyr gan Lywodraeth Cymru y cyfeiriwyd ato ddoe, er nad wyf wedi'i weld, wrth gwrs. Yn olaf, Ddirprwy Lywydd, bydd y dadleuon allweddol yn erbyn datblygu yn y maes cynllunio, ac rwy'n gofyn hyn: a yw'n debygol iawn y bydd y tir hwn yn newid dwylo at y diben hwnnw cyn y ceir sicrwydd ynghylch caniatâd cynllunio? Fel y gwyddom, ni wnaed cais, ac fel y gwyddom, mae dadleuon perthnasol gan y deisebwyr ar yr ochr hon - mae David Rees wedi sôn am rai o'r rheini - a chânt eu hystyried yn drylwyr gan yr awdurdod lleol. Ni fyddant yn meiddio peidio â'u hystyried yn drylwyr, pe bai'n cyrraedd cyn belled â hynny. Diolch.