English: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Clearly, the Minister and the Government have made a compelling case for taking action in this area and the problems that we have with alcohol abuse within our nation, though it is worth putting on record, I think, that this is not simply a question of cost. There are countries with cheaper alcohol than we have in Wales today that do not have the problems we have. There's a wider cultural issue that we need to address. This Bill may well be part of addressing that, but there are two issues that I'd like to touch on that I think do need ironing out as we take the Bill forward. The first I would like to call the 'Hay on Wye Co-op question', which is where you can go from the oldest pub in Hay on Wye, the Three Tuns - 200 yards down the road and you are in a Co-op that's in England - where we need to be absolutely clear about how this would work in terms of cross-border relationships and also internet orders and other issues. Having taken two Bills through in the Finance Committee that relate directly to taxation, I have to say that cross-border issues are a real issue that we had to deal with in that committee and I think that any committee looking at this Bill needs to thoroughly address those cross-border issues. It's not an excuse not to take the Bill through, but it's an issue that does need proper examination and ironing out. The second issue is, of course, that this is not a tax Bill but it is a fiscal measure, and we have a constant debate in the Assembly, quite rightly, about when and where is the most appropriate time to state your fiscal costs or taxes. Other Members have tried in the past to put the cost of, for example, stamp duty, which has now come in in the budget, on the face of the Bill. I'm content that that is taken forward as part of a budget process on the whole; I think that's an appropriate way to do it. However, this is not a tax, and the public health arguments in particular do turn around what will be the minimum unit price, and all the figures that you've quoted today, Minister, have come from a 50p minimum unit price and you've referenced several reports that have dealt with a 50p minimum unit price. So, why isn't that on the face of the Bill? What is the uncertainty about what this minimum price would be? I don't think it's good enough, because we're trying to hurry this Bill through before we lose the powers, not to have a proper addressing of this question. If it's too low, then it won't have the effect that you're hoping it will. If it's too high, then it could have a disproportionate effect on moderate drinkers who come from low-income backgrounds. So, we have to get it right, and I suggest getting it right is a task for the whole Assembly and not a task just for the Government. Though I understand you're taking regulation powers that will come to the Assembly under the affirmative method, I suggest it is better and more appropriate that, when we do pass this Bill, the minimum unit price is on the face of the Bill and you have powers to change that in the future with the approval of the Assembly.
Welsh: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Yn amlwg, mae'r Gweinidog a'r Llywodraeth wedi gwneud achos cymhellol dros weithredu yn y maes hwn a'r problemau sydd gennym gyda chamddefnyddio alcohol yn ein cenedl, er ei bod yn werth cofnodi, rwy'n credu, nad cwestiwn o gost yn unig yw hwn. Mae gwledydd sydd ag alcohol rhatach nag sydd gennym yng Nghymru heddiw nad oes ganddynt y problemau sydd gennym ni. Mae mater diwylliannol ehangach y mae angen inni fynd i'r afael ag ef. Efallai y bydd y Bil hwn yn rhan o fynd i'r afael â hynny, ond mae dau fater yr hoffwn eu crybwyll ar hynny, rwy'n credu y mae angen eu datrys wrth inni fynd â'r Bil ymlaen. Y cyntaf yr hoffwn ei alw 'Cwestiwn Co-op y Gelli Gandryll', ble y gallwch fynd o'r dafarn hynaf yn Y Gelli Gandryll, y Three Tuns - 200 llath i lawr y ffordd a'ch bod mewn Co-op sydd yn Lloegr - y mae angen i ni fod yn gwbl glir ynghylch sut y byddai hyn yn gweithio o ran perthnasoedd trawsffiniol a hefyd archebion rhyngrwyd a materion eraill. Ar ôl mynd â dau Fil drwyddo yn y Pwyllgor Cyllid sy'n ymwneud yn uniongyrchol â threthi, mae'n rhaid i mi ddweud bod materion trawsffiniol yn fater gwirioneddol y bu'n rhaid inni fynd i'r afael â nhw yn y pwyllgor hwnnw ac rwy'n credu bod angen i unrhyw bwyllgor sy'n edrych ar y Bil hwn fynd i'r afael yn drylwyr â'r materion trawsffiniol hynny. Nid esgus yw hynny i beidio â mynd a'r Bil drwodd, ond mae'n fater y mae angen ei archwilio'n iawn a'i lyfnhau. Yr ail fater, wrth gwrs, yw nad Bil treth yw hwn ond mae'n fesur ariannol, ac rydym yn cael dadl gyson yn y Cynulliad, yn eithaf priodol, ynghylch pryd a ble mae'r amser mwyaf priodol i ddatgan eich costau ariannol neu drethi. Mae Aelodau eraill wedi ceisio rhoi cost, er enghraifft, treth stamp yn y gorffennol, sydd bellach wedi dod i mewn yn y gyllideb, ar wyneb y Bil. Rwy'n fodlon bod hyn yn cael ei ddatblygu fel rhan o broses gyllidebol ar y cyfan; rwy'n credu bod hynny'n ffordd briodol i'w wneud. Fodd bynnag, nid treth yw hon, ac mae'r dadleuon iechyd y cyhoedd yn benodol yn ymwneud â beth fydd yr isafbris uned, ac mae'r holl ffigurau a ddyfynnoch chi heddiw, Weinidog, wedi dod o isafbris uned o 50c ac rydych wedi cyfeirio at nifer o adroddiadau sydd wedi delio ag isafbris uned o 50c. Felly, pam nad yw hynny ar wyneb y Bil? Beth yw'r ansicrwydd ynghylch beth fyddai'r isafbris hwn? Nid wyf yn credu ei fod yn ddigon da, oherwydd ein bod ni'n ceisio rhuthro'r Bil hwn cyn i ni golli'r pwerau, i beidio â rhoi sylw cywir i'r cwestiwn hwn. Os yw'n rhy isel, yna ni fydd yn cael yr effaith yr ydych chi'n gobeithio y bydd. Os yw'n rhy uchel, gallai gael effaith anghymesur ar yfwyr cymedrol sy'n dod o gefndiroedd incwm isel. Felly, mae'n rhaid inni ei wneud yn iawn, ac rwy'n awgrymu bod ei gael yn iawn yn dasg i'r Cynulliad cyfan ac nid yn dasg i'r Llywodraeth yn unig. Er fy mod yn deall eich bod yn cymryd pwerau rheoleiddio a ddaw i'r Cynulliad o dan y dull cadarnhaol, rwy'n awgrymu ei bod yn well ac yn fwy priodol, pan fyddwn yn trosglwyddo'r Bil hwn, bod yr isafbris uned ar wyneb y Bil ac mae'r pwerau gennych i newid hynny yn y dyfodol gyda chymeradwyaeth y Cynulliad.