English: Okay. Well, I'm sure that that's a very important reflection, but it wouldn't explain why more people are going to prison in Wales than in England, because you have the privatised probation service in England too. My understanding is it is across the piece, but if you know something more than that, obviously you can come back. Anyway, I think these are the sorts of things we want the commission for justice to answer, and, at the moment, they are not going to report until the end of this year. So, I don't think we can second guess what they're going to say. There's a great deal wrong, and clearly the levels of recidivism are an absolute disaster. It costs more to put somebody in prison than it does to put them up in Claridge's or somewhere like that, and yet we should hardly be surprised. The overcrowded conditions breed self-harm, suicide, assault and desperation. That's something that we have to recognise. We also have to acknowledge that some good work is going on to try and reduce the level of self-harm, including suicide, through the one-to-one conversations on a regular basis between prisoners and a designated officer that we heard about, both in Parc in Bridgend, as well as, I heard about, in Cardiff prison, when I visited last week. It is clear that if the prisoner feels that they are having their grievances heard, they are less likely to resort to really unproductive ways of expressing that frustration. So, I think we should commend the prison service for instituting that sort of thing. I would also like to commend the work by the Prison Advice and Care Trust in Cardiff prison, which is to make the cafe, the area where prisoners meet their families, much more friendly and a pleasanter place to be, which is both beneficial to the families and beneficial to the prisoner. We know that recidivism is far, far reduced if prisoners maintain contact with their families. But I think that the sort of responses that we heard from Mark Isherwood are just the sort of problem that we have with a sensible debate about the criminal justice system, which is driven by the Daily Mail. We cannot go on like this. We cannot send people to prison if we are, at the same time, not being able to ensure that the law is being enforced in prison. It is completely unacceptable that prisoners have had their belongings stolen whilst they are being transferred from one prison to another. That is against the law, and the law should be upheld, both in prisons - . I think that one of the greatest arguments in favour of enfranchising prisoners is it forces politicians who make the decisions about the system have a much greater awareness of what goes on in prisons and the ways in which we need to fix it to make it a less grossly expensive operation that doesn't actually produce the result that we want, which is to reduce the numbers of people who are returning to crime on release. So, I think it's premature to be voting at this moment on how, on when, prisoners should get the vote, because the local government committee is in the middle of an inquiry on this important matter. But we are where we are, we have the debate that we're having, and I think it's one we need to continue.
Welsh: Iawn. Wel, rwy'n siŵr fod honno'n ystyriaeth bwysig iawn, ond ni fyddai'n egluro pam y mae mwy o bobl yn mynd i'r carchar yng Nghymru nag yn Lloegr, oherwydd mae gennych wasanaeth prawf wedi'i breifateiddio yn Lloegr hefyd. Yn ôl fy nealltwriaeth i, mae'n digwydd yn gyffredinol, ond os ydych yn gwybod rhywbeth mwy na hynny, yn amlwg gallwch ddod yn ôl. Beth bynnag, rwy'n credu mai dyma'r math o bethau rydym am i'r comisiwn ar gyfiawnder eu hateb, ac ar hyn o bryd, ni fyddant yn cyflwyno eu hadroddiad tan ddiwedd y flwyddyn. Felly, ni chredaf y gallwn ddyfalu beth y byddant yn ei ddweud. Mae llawer iawn o'i le, ac mae'n amlwg fod lefelau troseddu parhaus yn drychineb llwyr. Mae'n costio mwy i roi rhywun yn y carchar nag y mae'n ei gostio i'w rhoi yn Claridge's neu rywle felly, ac eto ni ddylem synnu. Mae'r amgylchiadau gorlawn yn magu hunan-niwed, hunanladdiad, ymosodiadau ac anobaith. Mae hynny'n rhywbeth sy'n rhaid inni ei gydnabod. Rhaid inni gydnabod hefyd y gwaith da sy'n digwydd i geisio gostwng lefelau hunan-niweidio, gan gynnwys hunanladdiad, drwy'r sgyrsiau un i un rheolaidd rhwng carcharorion a'r swyddog dynodedig y clywsom amdano yn y Parc ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr, ac fel y clywais hefyd, yng ngharchar Caerdydd, pan ymwelais â'r lle yr wythnos diwethaf. Os yw carcharor yn teimlo bod eu cwynion yn cael eu clywed, mae'n amlwg eu bod yn llai tebygol o droi at ffyrdd gwirioneddol anghynhyrchiol o fynegi'r rhwystredigaeth honno. Felly, credaf y dylem ganmol y gwasanaeth carchardai am sefydlu'r math hwnnw o beth. Hefyd, hoffwn ganmol gwaith yr Ymddiriedolaeth Cyngor a Gofal Carchardai yng ngharchar Caerdydd, i wneud y caffi, yr ardal lle mae carcharorion yn cyfarfod a'u teuluoedd, yn llawer mwy cyfeillgar ac yn lle mwy pleserus i fod ynddo, a fydd yn fanteisiol i deuluoedd ac yn fuddiol i'r carcharor. Gwyddom fod lefelau troseddu parhaus yn gostwng yn helaeth os yw carcharorion yn cadw mewn cysylltiad â'u teuluoedd. Ond credaf fod y math o ymatebion a glywsom gan Mark Isherwood yr un math o broblem ag a gawn gyda dadl synhwyrol am y system cyfiawnder troseddol, sy'n cael ei hybu gan y Daily Mail. Ni allwn barhau fel hyn. Ni allwn anfon pobl i'r carchar os na allwn sicrhau, ar yr un pryd, fod y gyfraith yn cael ei gorfodi yn y carchar. Mae'n gwbl annerbyniol fod carcharorion yn gweld eu heiddo'n cael ei ddwyn tra'u bod yn cael eu trosglwyddo o un carchar i'r llall. Mae hynny yn erbyn y gyfraith, a dylid cynnal y gyfraith, mewn carchardai ac - . Credaf mai un o'r dadleuon mwyaf o blaid rhoi pleidlais i garcharorion yw ei fod yn gorfodi gwleidyddion sy'n gwneud y penderfyniadau am y system i gael llawer mwy o ymwybyddiaeth o'r hyn sy'n digwydd mewn carchardai a'r ffyrdd y mae angen inni ymdrin â hynny er mwyn ei wneud yn rhywbeth llai eithriadol o ddrud nad yw'n cynhyrchu'r canlyniadau a ddymunwn, sef lleihau nifer y bobl sy'n aildroseddu ar ôl eu rhyddhau. Felly, credaf ei bod yn rhy gynnar i ni bleidleisio ar hyn o bryd ynglŷn â sut a pha bryd y dylai carcharorion gael y bleidlais am fod y pwyllgor llywodraeth leol ynghanol ymchwiliad ar y mater pwysig hwn. Ond rydym lle'r ydym, rydym yn cael y ddadl rydym yn ei chael, a chredaf ei bod yn un y mae angen i ni barhau i'w chael.