techiaith/cofnodycynulliad_en-cy huggingface dataset:
English: Llywydd, I am conscious of time, but I would like to raise an important issue relating to the consideration of financial resolution motions. Whilst acknowledging that the Minister has responded prior to today's debate, this is not standard practice. Usually, responses are issued after the Stage 1 debate, with the financial resolution considered immediately after the Stage 1 motion has been agreed. This process does not allow Members of the Senedd to properly consider the financial implications fully before being asked to authorise spending arising from a Bill. We feel that this also undermines the committee's efforts and increases the risk of the Senedd passing laws with uncertain financial outcomes. I have been in correspondence with the First Minister and suggested that, when it is not possible for Ministers to respond prior to the Stage 1 debate, it would be appropriate to take the financial resolution motion at least a week later. I am awaiting a response from the Welsh Government, but I'm sure this Chamber would agree that, given the current pressures on public finances, it is more important than ever that the Welsh Government provides as much clarity as possible and as much assurance as possible before it asks the Senedd to commit resources. Thank you.
Welsh: Llywydd, rwy'n ymwybodol o'r amser, ond hoffwn godi mater pwysig sy'n ymwneud ag ystyried cynigion am benderfyniadau ariannol. Rwy'n cydnabod y ffaith bod y Gweinidog wedi ymateb cyn y ddadl heddiw, ond nid dyna'r arfer. Mae ymatebion fel arfer yn cael eu cyhoeddi ar ôl y ddadl Cyfnod 1, gyda'r penderfyniad ariannol yn cael ei ystyried yn syth ar ôl cytuno ar y cynnig Cyfnod 1. Nid yw'r broses hon yn caniatáu i Aelodau o'r Senedd hon ystyried y goblygiadau ariannol yn llawn cyn y mae gofyn iddyn nhw awdurdodi gwariant sy'n deillio o Fil. Rydym yn teimlo bod hyn hefyd yn tanseilio ymdrechion y pwyllgor, a'i fod yn cynyddu'r risg yn sylweddol y bydd y Senedd yn pasio deddfau gyda chanlyniadau ariannol ansicr. Rydw i wedi bod mewn gohebiaeth efo'r Prif Weinidog ac wedi awgrymu, pan nad yw'n bosibl i Weinidog ymateb cyn dadl Cyfnod 1, y byddai'n briodol trafod y cynnig ar gyfer penderfyniad ariannol o leiaf wythnos yn ddiweddarach. Rwy'n aros am ymateb gan Lywodraeth Cymru, ond rwy'n siŵr y byddai'r Siambr hon yn cytuno, o ystyried y pwysau presennol ar y gyllideb gyhoeddus, ei bod yn bwysicach nag erioed bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn rhoi cymaint o eglurder a sicrwydd â phosibl cyn y mae'n gofyn i'r Senedd ymrwymo adnoddau. Diolch yn fawr.
English: The Minister for rural affairs now to reply to the debate - Lesley Griffiths.
Welsh: Y Gweinidog materion gwledig nawr i ymateb i'r ddadl yma - Lesley Griffiths.
English: Will the Minister give way on that? I don't want to push this point but, curiously, actually, it's quite reassuring to hear the words on record and to hear the words in front of committees, but that, you recognise, is not quite the same as having on the face of the Bill not that this is informed by, but this is that definition or a version of it. I just want to make that point, because there is a clear difference in law.
Welsh: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ildio ar hynny? Dydw i ddim am wthio'r pwynt hwn ond, yn rhyfedd iawn, mewn gwirionedd, mae'n eithaf calonogol clywed y geiriau ar y cofnod a chlywed y geiriau o flaen pwyllgorau, ond nid yw hynny, rydych chi'n cydnabod, yn union yr un fath â'u cael ar wyneb y Bil nid fod hwn yn cael ei lywio gan, ond dyma'r diffiniad hwnnw neu fersiwn ohono. Rydw i eisiau gwneud y pwynt yna, oherwydd mae gwahaniaeth clir mewn cyfraith.
English: The proposal therefore is to agree the motion under item 5. Does any Member object? There are no objections. And therefore the motion under item 5 is agreed.
Welsh: Y cwestiwn felly yw: a ddylid derbyn y cynnig o dan eitem 5? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Na, does dim gwrthwynebiad. Felly, mae'r cynnig o dan eitem 5 wedi ei dderbyn.
English: The next question is that the financial resolution and the motion under item 6 be agreed. Does any Member object? No, there are no objections. And therefore that motion under item 6 is also agreed.
Welsh: Y cwestiwn nesaf, felly, yw: a ddylid derbyn y penderfyniad ariannol, a'r cynnig o dan eitem 6? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Na, does yna ddim gwrthwynebiad i hynny. Ac felly mae'r cynnig yna hefyd, o dan eitem 6, wedi ei dderbyn.
English: Which brings us to voting time, and, unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to voting. The votes this afternoon are on the debate on the draft budget for 2023-24. The first vote is on amendment 1, and I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 13, no abstentions and 38 against. And therefore amendment 1 is not agreed.
Welsh: Sy'n dod â ni nawr at y cyfnod pleidleisio, ac, oni bai bod tri Aelod yn dymuno i fi ganu'r gloch, fe wnawn ni symud yn syth i'r bleidlais. Ac mae'r pleidleisiau y prynhawn yma ar y ddadl ar y gyllideb ddrafft ar gyfer 2023-24. A gwelliant 1 fydd yn cael ei gymryd gyntaf, felly dwi'n galw am bleidlais ar welliant 1, a gyflwynwyd yn enw Darren Millar. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 13, neb yn ymatal, 38 yn erbyn. Ac felly mae gwelliant 1 wedi ei wrthod.
English: We'll move now to amendment 2. And I call for a vote on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 11, no abstentions, 40 against. And therefore amendment 2 is not agreed.
Welsh: Gwelliant 2 sydd nesaf, felly. Pleidlais ar welliant 2, a gyflwynwyd yn enw Siân Gwenllian. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 11, neb yn ymatal, 40 yn erbyn. Ac felly mae gwelliant 2 wedi ei wrthod.
English: We'll now vote on the unamended motion, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 27, 11 abstentions, 13 against. And therefore the motion is agreed.
Welsh: Pleidlais ar y cynnig heb ei ddiwygio fydd ddiwethaf, felly, y cynnig yn enw Lesley Griffiths. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 27, 11 yn ymatal, 13 yn erbyn. Ac felly mae'r cynnig yna wedi ei dderbyn.
English: And that concludes voting time and brings our proceedings to a close. Thank you.
Welsh: Dyna ddiwedd ar y pleidleisio, a diwedd ar ein gwaith ni am heddiw. Diolch yn fawr.
English: Welcome to the meeting of the Children, Young People, and Education Committee today.
Welsh: Croeso i gyfarfod y Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg heddiw.
English: Thank you very much. The question focused on pre-proceedings work. Would you like me to start again? The question focused on pre-proceedings work - that's the work that starts before the public services go to court. That's the 12 weeks before court action proceeds. Now, I think what the committee's interested in is what happens during that period, and what isn't working at the moment? So, in your view, and from your experience, what could change in order to ensure that parents receive the support that they should have? The have a solicitor and a lawyer during that period, but what isn't working properly now, because they subsequently go on to court? Could you just give one example each? Do you have experience of pre-proceedings work when you are supporting parents? Who'd like to go first? Mark, perhaps.
Welsh: Diolch yn fawr iawn. Roedd y cwestiwn yn canolbwyntio ar pre-proceedings, y gwaith pre-proceedings. Hynny yw, y gwaith sy'n digwydd cyn - . Ydych chi eisiau i mi ddechrau eto? Fe wnaf i ddechrau eto. Roedd y cwestiwn yn canolbwyntio ar waith pre-proceedings - hynny yw, y gwaith sy'n dechrau cyn bod gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yn mynd i'r llys, y 12 wythnos cyn bod gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yn mynd i'r llys. Beth, dwi'n meddwl, y mae gan y pwyllgor ddiddordeb ynddo fe yw beth sy'n digwydd yn yr amser hynny, a beth sydd ddim yn gweithio? Hynny yw, yn eich barn chi, a'ch profiad chi, beth sy'n gallu newid i wneud yn siŵr bod rhieni yn cael y gefnogaeth y dylen nhw ei chael? Mae ganddyn nhw solicitor a lawyer yn ystod y cyfnod yna, ond beth sydd ddim yn digwydd yn iawn, achos maen nhw'n mynd i'r llys ar ôl hynny? Ydych chi jest yn gallu rhoi un ateb, gan bob un ohonoch chi? Oes gennych chi brofiad o waith pre-proceedings pan fuoch chi'n cefnogi rhieni? Pwy sydd eisiau mynd yn gyntaf? Mark, wyt ti eisiau mynd yn gyntaf?
English: Thank you. I'll be speaking in Welsh. We have heard very powerful evidence, really, from birth parents regarding how they value parental advocacy, and you touched on how that can help them to go through these complex and difficult processes. So, what does the data tell us about what the impact is of having advocacy on family court outcomes? You mentioned the active offer; should all parents have a legal right to advocacy once an order has been made to the family court for the first child, rather than once a child has been permanently removed? To what extent would this level of provision be realistic, in your view?
Welsh: Diolch. Byddaf i'n siarad yn Gymraeg. Rŷm ni wedi clywed tystiolaeth rymus iawn, a dweud y gwir, gan rieni geni am sut maen nhw'n gwerthfawrogi eiriolaeth geni, ac roeddech chi'n cyffwrdd ar sut mae hynny yn gallu eu helpu nhw i fynd trwy'r prosesau cymhleth a chaled yma. Felly, beth mae'r data yn ei ddweud wrthym ni am beth yw effaith cael eiriolaeth ar ganlyniadau llys teulu? Roeddech chi'n sôn am yr active offer; a ddylai pob rhiant gael hawl gyfreithiol i eiriolaeth ar ôl i orchymyn gael ei wneud i lys teulu ar gyfer y plentyn cyntaf, yn hytrach nag unwaith y bydd y plentyn wedi cael ei gymryd oddi wrthyn nhw? I ba raddau ydych chi'n meddwl y byddai'r math yna o ddarpariaeth yn realistig?
English: So, just to be clear - a legal right to advocacy.
Welsh: Felly, jest i fod yn glir - hawl gyfreithiol i eiriolaeth.
English: During the pre-proceedings period, parents should have a solicitor or a lawyer. Is there a problem in providing that, in your experience? Just a yes or a no - that's all I'm looking for, in your experience.
Welsh: Yn ystod yr adeg pre-proceedings, dylai rhieni gael solicitor, lawyer neu beth bynnag. Oes yna broblem cael hynny, yn eich profiad chi? Jest ie neu na - dyna i gyd dwi eisiau gwybod, yn eich profiad chi.
English: Right. Thank you.
Welsh: Reit. Diolch.
English: Thank you, Chair. Going on to the pre-proceedings process, we know that delays in securing permanency can be very harmful for children in the long term. To what extent do local authorities make full use of the pre-proceedings process? Do they have the resources to produce quality parenting assessments in a timely way, to inform the final decision of the family court?
Welsh: Diolch, Gadeirydd. O ran y broses cyn achosion, rydym ni'n gwybod bod oedi wrth sicrhau parhad yn gallu bod yn niweidiol iawn i blant yn y tymor hir, felly i ba raddau mae awdurdodau lleol yn gwneud defnydd llawn o'r broses cyn achosion? Oes ganddyn nhw yr adnoddau i gynhyrchu asesiadau rhianta o safon, mewn modd amserol, i lywio penderfyniad terfynol y llys teulu?
English: Are there parents on the board? Do we know if there are parents on the board looking at this programme? No, there aren't. Okay. Thank you for clarifying.
Welsh: Oes yna riant ar y board? Ydyn ni'n gwybod os oes yna rieni ar y bwrdd sy'n edrych ar y rhaglen yma? Ydyn ni'n gwybod? Na, does yna ddim. Reit. Diolch.
English: Yes, thank you very much. I will be asking my questions in Welsh. I hope you can hear the interpretation. Can I return to Swansea, which you have mentioned, where there is good practice? Are there other local authorities in Wales or England where there is best practice that the committee could seek evidence from, particularly on pre-proceedings work? We all hear how very important this is, but there is great variation across Wales in terms of the evidence that we've seen. So, are there examples of good practice or best practice that the committee could look at in terms of pre-proceedings work? Thank you.
Welsh: Ie, diolch yn fawr iawn. Dwi am siarad yn Gymraeg. Dwi'n gobeithio eich bod chi'n clywed y cyfieithiad. Gaf i ofyn, rydych chi wedi sôn am Abertawe lle mae yna arfer da: oes yna awdurdodau lleol eraill dros Gymru neu Loegr lle mae yna arfer gorau y gall y pwyllgor efallai glywed amdano neu gael tystiolaeth ganddyn nhw ynglŷn â gwaith pre-proceedings? Rydyn ni i gyd yn clywed bod hyn yn bwysig, bwysig iawn, ond mae yna wahaniaeth ar draws Cymru lle rydyn ni'n edrych. Felly, oes yna lefydd lle mae yna arfer da, arfer gorau y gall y pwyllgor edrych arno ynglŷn â gwaith pre-proceedings? Diolch.
English: Thank you, Chair, and good morning. I'd like to come back quickly to the work of the public law working group. We have heard this morning from advocacy services that social workers don't have the time or the resources to provide the assessments required - and which you've said are absolutely necessary for the courts - and that that clearly leads to the delays that you've referred to, therefore, can you just talk a little bit about the impact of this? Do you feel that the resources are out there to produce the parenting assessments in a timely manner in order to ensure that, as Sir Andrew said, every hearing counts?
Welsh: Diolch, Cadeirydd, a bore da. Hoffwn i ddod nôl yn sydyn jest at waith y gweithgor cyfraith gyhoeddus. Rŷn ni wedi clywed y bore yma gan wasanaethau eiriolaeth nad oes gan weithwyr cymdeithasol yr amser na'r adnoddau i ddarparu'r asesiadau sydd eu hangen - yr hyn rŷch chi wedi dweud sy'n hollol angenrheidiol ar gyfer y llysoedd - a bod hynny'n amlwg yn arwain at yr oedi rŷch chi wedi cyfeirio ato, felly allwch chi jest sôn tipyn bach ynglŷn ag effaith hyn? Ydych chi'n teimlo bod yr adnoddau allan yna i gynhyrchu'r asesiadau rhianta mewn modd amserol er mwyn sicrhau, fel dywedodd Sir Andrew, fod pob gwrandawiad yn cyfrif?
English: Thank you very much, and perhaps the other side to that coin is the problem that we have already heard about in the evidence that we've taken so far, namely the disruption and concern that children and families experience when they have frequent changes of social workers. Is there any evidence that this has an impact on pre-proceedings work and the quality of parenting assessments? Do you have any comments on this?
Welsh: Diolch yn fawr, ac efallai ochr arall eto i'r geiniog yna yw'r broblem eto dŷn ni wedi clywed llawer iawn amdani hi yn y dystiolaeth dŷn ni wedi ei chymryd hyd yma, sef y gofid a'r aflonyddwch mae plant a theuluoedd yn eu hwynebu oherwydd bod gweithwyr cymdeithasol yn newid yn aml. Felly, oes unrhyw dystiolaeth gyda chi bod hyn yn cael effaith ar waith cyn achosion ac ansawdd yr asesiadau rhianta? Oes unrhyw sylwadau gyda chi am hynny?
English: Thank you, Chair. Good morning. Could you explain to us, to start, the family drug and alcohol court model and how it differs from proceedings in the usual, regular family court? And can you set out why parental drug and alcohol use in particular was selected for the pilot court model as opposed to other risk factors - for example, we know that domestic violence is one of the main factors, isn't it? So, if you could give us some comments on that too. Thank you.
Welsh: Diolch, Gadeirydd. Bore da. Allwch chi egluro i ni, i ddechrau, y model llys teulu, cyffuriau ac alcohol, a sut y mae'n wahanol i achosion yn y llys teulu arferol, rheolaidd? Ac allwch chi nodi pam y dewiswyd yn benodol y defnydd o alcohol a chyffuriau ymhlith rhieni ar gyfer y model peilot ar gyfer y llys, yn hytrach na ffactorau risg eraill - er enghraifft, rŷn ni'n gwybod bod trais domestig yn un o'r prif ffactorau, onid yw e? Felly, os allwch chi roi rhai sylwadau i ni ar hynny hefyd. Diolch.
English: Just to ask quickly, then, why - ? I can see that you were talking about those concrete interventions that can happen around drug and alcohol misuse. Is that why that was selected for the pilot rather than another risk, such as domestic violence? Just an answer specifically on that.
Welsh: Jest i ofyn yn gyflym, te, pam dewiswyd - ? Dwi'n gallu gweld roeddech chi'n siarad am yr ymyriadau concrit yna sy'n gallu digwydd o gwmpas camddefnydd cyffuriau ac alcohol. Ai dyna pam dewiswyd hynny ar gyfer y peilot yn hytrach na risg arall fel trais domestig, felly? Jest ateb yn benodol ar hynny.
English: Thank you very much. This model has been working in England for years, for decades. Why, in your view, is this model only a pilot here in Wales? Why is it just a pilot, because it's worked in England for years? So, I want to hear exactly why it's still in pilot form here in Wales. Thank you.
Welsh: Diolch yn fawr iawn. Mae'r model yma wedi bod yn gweithio dros Loegr am flynyddoedd - am ddegawdau, i ddweud y gwir. Pam, yn eich barn chi, ydy'r model yma jest yn beilot yng Nghymru? Pam mae o jest yn beilot, achos mae wedi gweithio yn Lloegr am flynyddoedd? Felly, dwi eisiau clywed yn union pam mae o'n beilot yma yng Nghymru. Diolch.
English: Just one follow-up question. It has worked in England, we've seen that. I'm still not quite clear, apart from funding issues, why we're not seeing it rolled out across Wales, because it has worked in terms of what's good for children and families. So, I'd like you to be honest with the committee. Peter, you're smiling.
Welsh: Jest un cwestiwn ychwanegol. Mae o wedi gweithio yn Lloegr - rydyn ni wedi'i weld o. Dwi dal ddim yn glir, heblaw efallai arian, pam ein bod ni jest ddim yn gweld o dros Gymru, achos mae o wedi gweithio ynglŷn â beth sy'n dda i blant ac i deuluoedd. Felly, ydy o'n arian? Dwi eisiau i chi fod yn onest, os mae hynny'n iawn, efo'r pwyllgor. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Peter, rydych chi'n gwenu.
English: Thank you. Just another question on funding - as I recall, this began in London, and the courts provided funding at the outset; in Westminster, I think that's where it was established. Do the courts provide funding for this pilot too in Wales?
Welsh: Diolch yn fawr. Jest cwestiwn arall ynglŷn ag arian - fel dwi'n cofio, roedd hwn yn dechrau yn Llundain, ac roedd y llysoedd yn rhoi'r arian i fewn pan oedd yn dechrau; yn Westminster, dwi'n meddwl oedd e'n dechrau. Ydy'r llysoedd yn rhoi arian i fewn i'r peilot yma yng Nghymru hefyd?
English: And another brief question. I think this is focusing on 15 families. The research is looking at 15 families - is that right? Is that sufficient in your view to ensure that it will have the impact, and to ensure that people listen and hear, that it is working, and it's effective and that it could be rolled out across Wales? Is that sufficient? That's perhaps a question for those who are involved in the research; I'm not sure what the threshold should be.
Welsh: A jest cwestiwn byr arall. Mae hyn yn edrych ar, dwi'n meddwl, 15 o deuluoedd. Ydy hynny'n iawn - yr ymchwil yn edrych ar 15 o deuluoedd? Ydy hynny'n ddigon, yn eich barn chi, i wneud yn siŵr fod o am gael yr effaith, a gwneud yn siŵr bod pobl yn gwrando ac yn clywed, fod o'n gweithio, ac mae o'n mynd dros Gymru? Ydy hynny'n ddigon? Ac efallai fod hynny'n gwestiwn i'r bobl sydd yn gwneud yr ymchwil; dwi ddim yn siŵr am y threshold.
English: Just a quick question on the evaluation. Will you be looking at the financial benefits of the pilot, namely the money that, probably, it will save in the long term?
Welsh: Ie, jest cwestiwn cyflym am y gwerthusiad. A fyddwch chi yn edrych ar fuddion ariannol i'r peilot, hynny yw yr arian fydd e siŵr o fod yn arbed yn y tymor hir?
English: Just briefly. Now, just in terms of ensuring that families that come to FDAC also go through pre-proceedings. Can you confirm that? So, they've had an opportunity for pre-proceedings.
Welsh: Jest un cwestiwn byr, os gwelwch yn dda. Jest i sicrhau bod y teuluoedd sy'n dod i FDAC yn mynd trwy pre-proceedings hefyd, felly maen nhw wedi cael y cyfle i gael pre-proeceedings.
English: Good afternoon, all, and welcome to this Plenary meeting. The first item on the agenda this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Climate Change, and the first question is to be answered by the Deputy Minister, and to be asked by Siân Gwenllian.
Welsh: Prynhawn da, bawb, a chroeso i'r Cyfarfod Llawn hwn. Y cwestiynau i'r Gweinidog Newid Hinsawdd sydd gyntaf ar yr agenda y prynhawn yma, ac mae'r cwestiwn cyntaf i'w ateb gan y Dirprwy Weinidog, ac i'w ofyn gan Siân Gwenllian.
English: Diolch. One of the aims of 'Llwybr Newydd', the Wales transport strategy, is to reduce the cost of sustainable travel for everyone in Wales, including young people. We are working towards an accessible transport system across the nation and have a number of initiatives aimed at younger travellers.
Welsh: Diolch. Un o nodau 'Llwybr Newydd', strategaeth drafnidiaeth Cymru, yw lleihau cost teithio cynaliadwy i bawb yng Nghymru, gan gynnwys pobl ifanc. Rydym yn gweithio tuag at system drafnidiaeth hygyrch ledled y wlad ac mae gennym nifer o gynlluniau wedi'u hanelu at deithwyr iau.
English: It's good to hear that there are plans in the pipeline, and, of course, we need to extend them and to bring new plans forward too. But in rural parts of my constituency, it's not the cost of travelling on buses that's the only problem. There's a lack of bus services in the first instance, with some communities without a way to travel at all at times, because there are no trains, metro, appropriate cycling routes, nor are there bus services at some times of the day. Now, Yr Orsaf in Penygroes is developing a project to support residents, including young people, who face barriers because of a lack of public transport in dyffryn Nantlle, with the support of the dyffryn Nantlle community transport partnership. Is community transport an area that you as a Deputy Minister want to see developing in the future, and, if this is a priority for you, how much funding has been earmarked for encouraging this kind of transport in the Government's draft budget for the next financial year?
Welsh: Mae'n dda clywed bod yna gynlluniau ar y gweill, ac, wrth gwrs, mae angen eu hymestyn nhw a dod â chynlluniau newydd ymlaen hefyd. Ond yn rhannau gwledig fy etholaeth i, nid cost teithio ar fysus ydy'r unig broblem. Mae yna brinder bysus yn y lle cyntaf, gyda rhai cymunedau heb ffordd o deithio o gwbl ar adegau, gan nad oes yna ddim trenau, metro, llwybrau seiclo addas, nac ychwaith wasanaeth bysus ar rai adegau o'r dydd. Mae Yr Orsaf ym Mhenygroes yn datblygu prosiect i gefnogi trigolion, gan gynnwys pobl ifanc, sy'n wynebu rhwystrau oherwydd diffyg trafnidiaeth cyhoeddus yn nyffryn Nantlle, a hynny efo cefnogaeth partneriaeth trafnidiaeth gymunedol dyffryn Nantlle. Ydy trafnidiaeth gymunedol yn faes yr ydych chi fel Dirprwy Weinidog am ei weld yn datblygu i'r dyfodol, ac felly, os ydy hyn yn flaenoriaeth gennych chi, faint o gyllid sydd wedi ei glustnodi ar gyfer annog y math yma o drafnidiaeth yng nghyllideb ddrafft y Llywodraeth ar gyfer y flwyddyn ariannol nesaf?