English: Diolch, Llywydd. I'm speaking today in my capacity as the Chair of the Health and Social Care Committee, and I present the views of its members as a whole. Can I say 'thank you' to the Minister for responding to our report, which was only laid today, I believe? And I think it dropped into my inbox just 30 minutes ago. As the Minister has said herself, the Nationality and Borders Bill is a large and complex Bill; it has implications for both health and social care and for children's rights and safeguarding, so we are pleased, therefore, to be able to co-ordinate our evidence with the Children, Young People and Education Committee in order to reduce duplication, and we're also grateful to stakeholders who were able to share their views with us within a very tight time frame as well. Whilst the vast majority of the Bill deals mainly with immigration-related matters, which are outside of the scope of the Senedd's powers, clauses 48, 49 and 51 to 55, relating to the age assessment of asylum seekers, asylum-seeking children and young people, and clause 80, powers to make consequential provisions, impact the non-devolved areas of social care. So, we therefore concluded that the legislative consent of the Senedd is required. No information on the financial costs of the proposed age assessment clauses is provided in the Bill, and we therefore recommended that, should the Bill be passed as drafted, the Welsh Government seeks assurances from the UK Government that any financial implications arising from the Bill will be met by the UK Government in line with the statement of funding policy. Also, we would be grateful for assurances from the Minister that appropriate mental health and well-being support will be made available to people affected by the use of scientific methods of age assessment, should such methods be applied in Wales. And our views on the provisions relating to age assessments are set out in our report, but I would focus on two clauses in particular. Clause 49: at present, local authority social service departments undertake age assessments where there is any doubt over a person's age, and the decision about age is therefore taken at a devolved level. So, the Bill proposes to change this process to create a UK-wide system, as has been spoken about. Clause 49 provides that a local authority can refer an age-disputed person to the designated person to assess their age. Alternatively, the local authority can undertake an age assessments itself, or if the authority is satisfied that the person is the age they claim, they can inform the Secretary of State in writing of this, and this clause also enables the Secretary of State to make regulations that impose functions on devolved Welsh authorities. So, we heard a number of concerns about the provision, including the lack of detail contained in the Bill around the function, power, constitution and independence of the designated person, and how the designated person will engage with Wales and take into account these areas devolved to the Welsh Government that are fundamental to any assessment process. So, having considered the evidence from stakeholders, we concluded that the Senedd should not consent to clause 49, and this is because there are already processes in place for age assessments in Wales that clause 49 could undermine. And clause 51 gives the Secretary of State the power to make regulations about scientific methods for age assessment. It also allows a decision maker to make a negative interpretation of a person's credibility if they refuse to undergo a scientific age assessment without good reason. So, we concluded that the Senedd should not consent to clause 51 on the basis that stakeholders such as the Royal College of Nursing, the British Medical Association and the Royal College of Physicians have told us that there is no evidence that scientific methods of age assessment are effective. We also, therefore, are not persuaded that conducting potentially intrusive medical procedures on children and young people who could already have been traumatised by their life experiences can be justified. Health professionals also raised concerns about whether carrying out age assessments was consistent with their professional ethics of acting in the best interests of the person. So, we note that, in addition to putting such professionals in a perhaps difficult position, some stakeholders have suggested there could be implications for health professionals' own well-being, as well as affecting their ability to build trust with the young person needing support. It was also not clear to what extent the Welsh NHS bodies will be required to participate in the age assessment process, but this could place considerable demands on an already overstretched workforce. In conclusion, Presiding Officer, we believe that the Senedd's consent is required for clauses 49, 51 to 55 and 80, because they make provisions within the Senedd's devolved competence. However, on the basis of the evidence we have received, the committee could not recommend that the Senedd should give its consent. Diolch, Llywydd.
Welsh: Diolch, Llywydd. Rwy'n siarad heddiw yn rhinwedd fy swydd fel Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gofal Cymdeithasol, ac rwyf yn cyflwyno barn ei aelodau yn ei gyfanrwydd. A gaf i ddweud 'diolch' i'r Gweinidog am ymateb i'n hadroddiad, a gafodd ond ei osod heddiw, rwy'n credu? Ac rwy'n credu iddo gyrraedd fy mewnflwch dim ond 30 munud yn ôl. Fel y mae'r Gweinidog wedi ei ddweud ei hun, mae'r Bil Cenedligrwydd a Ffiniau yn Fil mawr a chymhleth; mae iddo oblygiadau i iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol ac i hawliau a diogelu plant, rydym ni'n falch, felly, o allu cydlynu ein tystiolaeth gyda'r Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg er mwyn lleihau dyblygu, ac rydym hefyd yn ddiolchgar i randdeiliaid a oedd yn gallu rhannu eu barn gyda ni o fewn amserlen dynn iawn hefyd. Er bod y rhan fwyaf o'r Bil yn ymdrin yn bennaf â materion sy'n ymwneud â mewnfudo, sydd y tu allan i gwmpas pwerau'r Senedd, mae cymalau 48, 49 a 51 i 55, sy'n ymwneud ag asesu oedran ceiswyr lloches, plant a phobl ifanc sy'n ceisio lloches, a chymal 80, pwerau i wneud darpariaethau canlyniadol, yn effeithio ar feysydd gofal cymdeithasol nad ydyn nhw wedi'u datganoli. Felly, daethom i'r casgliad bod angen cydsyniad deddfwriaethol y Senedd. Ni ddarperir unrhyw wybodaeth am gostau ariannol y cymalau asesu oedran arfaethedig yn y Bil, ac felly gwnaethom argymell, pe bai'r Bil yn cael ei basio fel y'i drafftiwyd, fod Llywodraeth Cymru yn gofyn am sicrwydd gan Lywodraeth y DU y bydd unrhyw oblygiadau ariannol sy'n deillio o'r Bil yn cael eu talu gan Lywodraeth y DU yn unol â'r datganiad o bolisi ariannu. Hefyd, byddem yn ddiolchgar am sicrwydd gan y Gweinidog y bydd cymorth iechyd meddwl a lles priodol ar gael i bobl yr effeithir arnyn nhw gan y defnydd o ddulliau gwyddonol o asesu oedran, pe bai dulliau o'r fath yn cael eu defnyddio yng Nghymru. Ac mae ein barn ar y darpariaethau sy'n ymwneud ag asesiadau oedran wedi'u nodi yn ein hadroddiad, ond byddwn yn canolbwyntio ar ddau gymal yn benodol. Cymal 49: ar hyn o bryd, mae adrannau gwasanaethau cymdeithasol awdurdodau lleol yn cynnal asesiadau oedran lle mae unrhyw amheuaeth ynghylch oedran person, ac felly mae'r penderfyniad ynghylch oedran yn cael ei wneud ar lefel ddatganoledig. Felly, mae'r Bil yn cynnig newid y broses hon i greu system ledled y DU, fel y soniwyd amdani. Mae cymal 49 yn darparu y gall awdurdod lleol gyfeirio person sy'n destun dadl o ran oedran at y person dynodedig i asesu ei oedran. Fel arall, gall yr awdurdod lleol gynnal asesiad oedran ei hun, neu os yw'r awdurdod yn fodlon bod y person yr oedran y maen nhw'n honni, gallan nhw hysbysu'r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol yn ysgrifenedig o hyn, ac mae'r cymal hwn hefyd yn galluogi'r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol i wneud rheoliadau sy'n gosod swyddogaethau ar awdurdodau datganoledig Cymru. Felly, clywsom nifer o bryderon am y ddarpariaeth, gan gynnwys y diffyg manylion yn y Bil ynghylch swyddogaeth, pŵer, cyfansoddiad ac annibyniaeth y person dynodedig, a sut y bydd y person dynodedig yn ymgysylltu â Chymru ac yn ystyried y meysydd hyn sydd wedi'u datganoli i Lywodraeth Cymru sy'n hanfodol i unrhyw broses asesu. Felly, ar ôl ystyried y dystiolaeth gan randdeiliaid, daethom i'r casgliad na ddylai'r Senedd gydsynio i gymal 49, a'r rheswm am hyn yw bod prosesau eisoes ar waith ar gyfer asesiadau oedran yng Nghymru y gallai cymal 49 eu tanseilio. Ac mae cymal 51 yn rhoi'r pŵer i'r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol wneud rheoliadau ynghylch dulliau gwyddonol ar gyfer asesu oedran. Mae hefyd yn caniatáu i'r sawl sy'n gwneud penderfyniadau wneud dehongliad negyddol o hygrededd person os yw'n gwrthod cael asesiad oedran gwyddonol heb reswm da. Felly, daethom i'r casgliad na ddylai'r Senedd gydsynio i gymal 51 ar y sail bod rhanddeiliaid fel y Coleg Nyrsio Brenhinol, Cymdeithas Feddygol Prydain a Choleg Brenhinol y Ffisigwyr wedi dweud wrthym nad oes tystiolaeth bod dulliau gwyddonol o asesu oedran yn effeithiol. Felly, nid ydym ychwaith wedi ein darbwyllo y gellir cyfiawnhau cynnal gweithdrefnau meddygol ymwthiol posibl ar blant a phobl ifanc a allai fod wedi cael eu trawmateiddio eisoes gan eu profiadau bywyd. Cododd gweithwyr iechyd proffesiynol bryderon hefyd ynghylch a oedd cynnal asesiadau oedran yn gyson â'u moeseg broffesiynol o weithredu er lles gorau'r person. Felly, rydym yn nodi, yn ogystal â rhoi gweithwyr proffesiynol o'r fath mewn sefyllfa anodd efallai, fod rhai rhanddeiliaid wedi awgrymu y gallai fod goblygiadau i les gweithwyr iechyd proffesiynol eu hunain, yn ogystal ag effeithio ar eu gallu i feithrin ymddiriedaeth gyda'r person ifanc sydd angen cymorth. Nid oedd yn glir ychwaith i ba raddau y bydd yn ofynnol i gyrff GIG Cymru gymryd rhan yn y broses asesu oedran, ond gallai hyn roi cryn alw ar weithlu sydd eisoes wedi'i orlethu. I gloi, Llywydd, credwn fod angen cydsyniad y Senedd ar gyfer cymalau 49, 51 i 55 ac 80, oherwydd eu bod yn gwneud darpariaethau o fewn cymhwysedd datganoledig y Senedd. Fodd bynnag, ar sail y dystiolaeth a gawsom, ni allai'r pwyllgor argymell y dylai'r Senedd roi ei chydsyniad. Diolch, Llywydd.