English: Yes, I appreciate that you're making a distinction between alcoholics and hazardous drinkers, and such a distinction does exist, but all the same we don't believe that this legislation will even effectively tackle the problem of hazardous drinkers. To go back to what I was saying, an alcoholic may simply spend more of his or her money on alcohol after MUP and spend less on basic essentials, such as heating, food, utility bills and rent. Raising the price of alcohol could therefore be the tipping point that ends up tipping an alcoholic over into homelessness. In the case of an alcoholic who also has a family, it could plausibly lead to the entire family being evicted. Richard Edwards, chief executive of the Cardiff-based homeless charity the Huggard centre, is one of those who has major concerns over the MUP plan. I quote: 'Raising pricing alone, for legal drugs such as alcohol, may simply change one addiction for another and condemn people to a more entrenched and desperate life on the streets'. End quote. There is the very real threat that hardened alcoholics will turn away from alcohol and get involved with much worse substances such as spice, which is already prevalent on the streets of Wales's major towns and cities. There is also the prospect that alcoholics could turn to crime to raise funds for their habits. Crime levels could actually go up, rather than down as the Welsh Government's evidence has asserted. There has been an argument that pubs will actually benefit from the introduction of MUP. Well, let's have a look at that. Pubs have, it's true, complained for some years that they are unfairly treated by the tax system compared to supermarkets, which are able to undercut them on alcohol products. This is due to different rates of VAT being charged. Unfortunately, this tax disparity won't be addressed by the introduction of MUP. CAMRA, which has previously supported MUP, have since 2013 opposed it and recently their head of communications said: 'CAMRA does not support minimum unit pricing because we believe it penalises moderate and responsible drinkers while doing little to support those who have issues with alcohol abuse.' Another who opposes the scheme is Tim Martin the boss of Wetherspoon, who has called MUP a red herring and says that what is really needed is a cut in VAT on beer sold in pubs. So, if the Welsh Government really wanted to improve the position of pubs, which wasn't actually their objective in any case with this Bill, they should instead lobby the UK Government for a reduction on VAT on alcohol sold in pubs. Another body that has performed a u-turn of sorts is the UK Government. Having previously been in favour of introducing MUP, the Westminster Government has now decided that they will carefully monitor what happens in Scotland first, before they implement any similar scheme in England. But the Welsh Government has decided to do it differently and plough on with its own plans regardless. I think that they now need to take a step back and think again about this legislation. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Welsh: Ie, rwy'n sylweddoli eich bod yn gwahaniaethu rhwng alcoholigion a rhai sy'n yfed i raddau peryglus, ac mae gwahaniaeth o'r fath yn bodoli, ond er hynny ni chredwn y bydd y ddeddfwriaeth yn ymdrin yn effeithiol â phroblem yfed peryglus hyd yn oed. I fynd yn ôl at yr hyn roeddwn yn ei ddweud, efallai y bydd alcoholig ond yn gwario mwy o'i arian ar alcohol ar ôl gosod isafbris uned ac yn gwario llai ar hanfodion sylfaenol, megis gwres, bwyd, biliau cyfleustodau a rhent. Felly, efallai mai codi pris alcohol fydd y pwynt tyngedfennol yn y pen draw sy'n peri i alcoholig gael ei wneud yn ddigartref. Yn achos alcoholig sydd hefyd â theulu, gallai arwain at droi'r teulu cyfan allan. Mae Richard Edwards, prif weithredwr elusen canolfan Huggard yng Nghaerdydd i'r digartref yn un o'r rhai sydd wedi lleisio pryderon mawr ynglŷn â'r cynllun isafbris uned. Rwy'n dyfynnu: Ni fydd codi prisiau yn unig am gyffuriau cyfreithlon fel alcohol ond yn newid un math o gaethiwed am un arall o bosibl ac yn condemnio pobl i fywyd mwyfwy anobeithiol ac anodd dod ohono ar y strydoedd. Diwedd y dyfyniad. Ceir bygythiad go iawn y bydd alcoholigion yn troi oddi wrth alcohol at sylweddau llawer gwaeth fel 'spice', sydd eisoes yn gyffredin ar strydoedd trefi mawr a dinasoedd Cymru. Ceir hefyd y posibilrwydd y gallai alcoholigion droi at droseddu i godi arian i fwydo eu harferion. Mewn gwirionedd gallai lefelau trosedd godi yn hytrach na gostwng fel y mae tystiolaeth Llywodraeth Cymru wedi honni. Lleisiwyd dadl y byddai tafarndai'n elwa o gyflwyno isafbris uned. Wel, gadewch i ni gael golwg ar hynny. Mae tafarndai, mae'n wir, wedi bod yn cwyno ers rhai blynyddoedd eu bod yn cael eu trin yn annheg gan y system dreth o gymharu ag archfarchnadoedd, sy'n gallu codi pris is am gynhyrchion alcohol. Mae hyn oherwydd cyfraddau gwahanol o TAW a godir. Yn anffodus, ni fydd cyflwyno isafbris uned yn mynd i'r afael â'r gwahaniaeth treth hwn. Mae CAMRA, sydd wedi cefnogi isafbris uned yn y gorffennol, wedi ei wrthwynebu ers 2013 ac yn ddiweddar dywedodd eu pennaeth cyfathrebu: Nid yw CAMRA yn cefnogi isafbris fesul uned oherwydd credwn ei fod yn cosbi yfwyr cymedrol a chyfrifol heb wneud fawr ddim i gynorthwyo'r rhai sydd â phroblemau camddefnyddio alcohol. Un arall sy'n gwrthwynebu'r cynllun yw Tim Martin, pennaeth Wetherspoon, sydd wedi galw isafbris fesul uned yn gyfeiliornad ac mae'n dweud mai'r hyn sydd ei angen mewn gwirionedd yw gostyngiad yn y TAW ar y cwrw a werthir mewn tafarndai. Felly, pe bai Llywodraeth Cymru o ddifrif eisiau gwella sefyllfa tafarndai, rhywbeth nad oedd yn amcan ganddynt beth bynnag gyda'r Bil hwn, dylent lobïo Llywodraeth y DU yn lle hynny i ostwng y TAW ar alcohol a werthir mewn tafarndai. Corff arall sydd wedi gwneud tro pedol o fath yw Llywodraeth y DU. Ar ôl bod o blaid cyflwyno isafbris fesul uned yn flaenorol, mae Llywodraeth San Steffan bellach wedi penderfynu y byddant yn monitro'n ofalus beth sy'n digwydd yn yr Alban yn gyntaf, cyn iddynt weithredu unrhyw gynllun tebyg yn Lloegr. Ond mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi penderfynu gwneud pethau'n wahanol a bwrw ymlaen â'i chynlluniau ei hun beth bynnag. Rwy'n credu bod angen iddynt gymryd cam yn ôl a meddwl eto ynglŷn â'r ddeddfwriaeth hon. Diolch yn fawr iawn.