English: I think this is an important debate, and one that we are going to have to decide on when we legislate on the future franchise for Assembly and local government elections. So, this is not some airy-fairy matter; this is something that we are going to have to make decisions about. Frankly, if prisoners had the right to vote, politicians might pay more attention to the disgraceful conditions in which many prisoners are still held. We heard from - . Yesterday's riots at Long Lartin exposed the fact that many prisoners still do not have a toilet in their cell and are having to slop out in the morning, which is so unpleasant for both the inmates and the officers who are looking after them. This is just disgraceful in the twenty-first century. Across the UK, we spend billions of pounds on locking people up, and, in Wales, we have a higher proportion of prisoners than any other country in western Europe, so we need to be asking ourselves what is not working. Because our recidivism rates mean that, in many cases, we are simply having a revolving door and therefore we are sinking more billions into something that isn't working properly. We need to ensure that most of our prisoners are coming out convinced that they are going to live a better life and have learned from their mistakes. I pay credit to the excellent work of the prisons and the prisoners - the prison officers and other agencies who do achieve that, but far too many prisoners do not achieve that outcome. I regard voting not just as a right, but a duty of all citizens, and that should include all prisoners. It was very interesting, talking to prisoners at Parc prison in Bridgend and at Eastwood Park in Gloucestershire, where all the women prisoners are themselves - they told us that, before going to prison, they believed all prisoners were bad people, but now they feel they were often just people who made bad decisions. I think it's particularly disappointing to hear from Caroline Jones, who has worked in the prison system and therefore knows how complex the situation is - every single person in prison will have a different story, and most of them have made bad decisions. Most of them haven't set out to commit a crime, they've just, on the spur of the moment, committed a crime - for which they need to be punished. But I think the complexity of the situation as well is illustrated by the play that's on at the Clink at the moment - called A Night in the Clink - which is attached to Cardiff prison. The work done by Sherman Theatre in collaboration with Papertrail is a really commendable piece of writing, of acting and a really powerful expression of just how difficult it is for somebody to reintegrate into society. John Griffiths has already mentioned the venerable Lady Hale, that upholder of our democracy. In 2014, she said: 'Any restriction of fundamental rights has to be a proportionate means of pursuing a legitimate aim. Is it simply an additional punishment, a further mark of society's disapproval of the criminal offence? Or is it rather to encourage a sense of civic responsibility and respect for democratic institutions? If so, it could well be argued that this is more likely to be achieved by retaining the vote, as a badge of continuing citizenship, to encourage civic responsibility and reintegration in civil society'. So, I think that view was well expressed by all the governors that we spoke to, because they understand the importance of ensuring that prisoners are focusing on the hopeful outcome. So, it is such a tragedy that penal policy is so dominated by the popular press, as expressed by some of the speakers today. The tragedy is particularly for children of prisoners, who are never considered when we send people to prison, and often they are no actual risk themselves to society. By enfranchising all those with sentences of less than four years we are excluding those guilty of the most serious crimes, and it's a pity that Caroline Jones didn't actually read the report, because it says clearly that less than half the prisoners serving from Wales are serving sentences of four years or more. So, in 2017, which is the last time those were available, 1,800 were serving less than four years, versus 1,600 serving sentences longer than four years. We have to move with and - . We have to be the shaper of public opinion in this case, as we did with abolishing hanging, as we did with introducing the abortion Act, which most reasonable people now realise is absolutely what we need to be doing. So, my last point is to say that those who are already enfranchised to vote under the 1983 Act are not being allowed to exercise that responsibility. It isn't sufficient to say, 'Does anybody want to vote?' -
Welsh: Credaf fod hon yn ddadl bwysig, ac yn un y bydd yn rhaid inni benderfynu arni pan fyddwn yn deddfu ar yr etholfraint ar gyfer etholiadau'r Cynulliad a llywodraeth leol yn y dyfodol. Felly, nid mater penchwiban yw hwn; mae'n rhywbeth y bydd yn rhaid inni wneud penderfyniadau yn ei gylch. A dweud y gwir, pe bai gan garcharorion hawl i bleidleisio, efallai y byddai gwleidyddion yn talu mwy o sylw i'r amodau gwarthus y cedwir llawer o garcharorion ynddynt o hyd. Clywsom gan - . Dangosodd terfysgoedd ddoe yn Long Lartin fod llawer o garcharorion yn dal heb doiled yn eu celloedd a'u bod yn gorfod gwagio bwcedi yn y bore, rhywbeth sydd mor annymunol i'r carcharorion a'r swyddogion sy'n edrych ar eu hôl. Mae hyn yn warthus yn yr unfed ganrif ar hugain. Ledled y DU, rydym yn gwario biliynau o bunnoedd ar roi pobl dan glo, ac yng Nghymru, mae gennym gyfran uwch o garcharorion nag unrhyw wlad arall yng ngorllewin Ewrop, felly mae angen inni ofyn i'n hunain beth sydd ddim yn gweithio. Oherwydd mae ein cyfraddau aildroseddu'n golygu, mewn llawer o achosion, fod gennym ddrws troi ac felly rydym yn taflu mwy o biliynau o bunnoedd at rywbeth nad yw'n gweithio'n iawn. Mae angen inni sicrhau bod y rhan fwyaf o'n carcharorion yn dod allan yn argyhoeddedig eu bod yn mynd i fyw bywyd gwell a'u bod wedi dysgu o'u camgymeriadau. Rwy'n canmol gwaith rhagorol y carchardai a'r carcharorion - y swyddogion carchar ac asiantaethau eraill sy'n cyflawni hynny, ond mae llawer gormod o garcharorion yn methu sicrhau'r canlyniad hwnnw. Ystyriaf fod pleidleisio nid yn unig yn hawl, ond yn ddyletswydd i bob dinesydd, a dylai hynny gynnwys pob carcharor. Roedd yn ddiddorol iawn siarad â charcharorion yng ngharchar Parc ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr ac yn Eastwood Park yn swydd Gaerloyw, lle mae'r holl garcharorion sy'n fenywod - roeddent yn dweud wrthym eu bod yn credu, cyn mynd i'r carchar, fod pob carcharor yn bobl ddrwg, ond eu bod bellach yn teimlo'n aml mai pobl a oedd wedi gwneud penderfyniadau gwael oeddent. Rwy'n credu ei bod yn arbennig o siomedig clywed gan Caroline Jones, sydd wedi gweithio yn y system carchardai ac sy'n gwybod felly pa mor gymhleth yw'r sefyllfa - bydd gan bob person yn y carchar stori wahanol, ac mae'r rhan fwyaf ohonynt wedi gwneud penderfyniadau gwael. Nid yw'r rhan fwyaf ohonynt wedi mynd ati i gyflawni trosedd, ond yn hytrach, maent wedi cyflawni trosedd yn ddifeddwl - trosedd y mae angen eu cosbi amdani. Ond rwy'n meddwl bod cymhlethdod y sefyllfa hefyd yn cael ei ddangos yn y ddrama a ddangosir yn y Clink ar hyn o bryd - drama o'r enw A Night in the Clin k - sy'n rhan o garchar Caerdydd. Mae'r gwaith a wnaed gan Theatr Sherman mewn cydweithrediad â Papertrail yn gyfansoddiad clodwiw iawn, ac actio a mynegiant grymus iawn o ba mor anodd yw hi i rywun ailintegreiddio o fewn y gymdeithas. Mae John Griffiths eisoes wedi sôn am yr hybarch Lady Hale, cynheiliad ein democratiaeth. Yn 2014, dywedodd: Rhaid i unrhyw gyfyngiad ar hawliau sylfaenol fod yn ffordd gymesur o fynd ar drywydd nod cyfreithlon. Ai cosb ychwanegol yn unig ydyw, nod arall o anghymeradwyaeth cymdeithas o'r tramgwydd troseddol? Ynteu a yw'n annog ymdeimlad o gyfrifoldeb dinesig a pharch tuag at sefydliadau democrataidd? Os felly, gellid dadlau bod hyn yn fwy tebygol o gael ei gyflawni drwy gadw'r bleidlais, fel bathodyn o barhad dinasyddiaeth, i annog cyfrifoldeb dinesig ac ailintegreiddio mewn cymdeithas sifil. Rwy'n credu bod y farn honno wedi'i mynegi'n dda gan yr holl lywodraethwyr y buom yn siarad â hwy, oherwydd maent yn deall pwysigrwydd sicrhau bod carcharorion yn canolbwyntio ar y canlyniad gobeithiol. Felly, mae'n drychineb fod polisi cosbi yn cael ei ddominyddu i'r fath raddau gan y wasg boblogaidd, fel y mynegwyd gan rai o'r siaradwyr heddiw. Mae'n drychineb arbennig i blant carcharorion, nad ydynt byth yn cael eu hystyried pan anfonwn bobl i'r carchar, ac yn aml nid ydynt yn achosi unrhyw risg eu hunain i gymdeithas mewn gwirionedd. Drwy roi'r etholfraint i bawb sydd wedi cael dedfryd o lai na phedair blynedd, rydym yn eithrio'r rhai sy'n euog o'r troseddau mwyaf difrifol, ac mae'n drueni na ddarllenodd Caroline Jones yr adroddiad mewn gwirionedd, oherwydd mae'n dweud yn glir fod llai na hanner y carcharorion o Gymru yn bwrw dedfryd o bedair blynedd neu fwy. Felly, yn 2017, sef y tro diwethaf yr oedd y ffigurau hynny ar gael, roedd 1,800 yn bwrw dedfryd o lai na phedair blynedd, o gymharu â 1,600 a oedd yn bwrw dedfryd hwy na phedair blynedd. Rhaid inni symud gyda - . Mae'n rhaid i ni fod ar flaen y farn gyhoeddus yn yr achos hwn, fel yr oeddem wrth ddiddymu crogi, fel yr oeddem wrth gyflwyno'r Ddeddf erthylu, deddf y mae'r rhan fwyaf o bobl resymol yn awr yn sylweddoli mai dyna'n union sydd angen inni ei wneud. Felly, fy mhwynt olaf yw dweud na chaniateir i'r rhai sydd eisoes wedi cael hawl i bleidleisio o dan Ddeddf 1983 i arfer y cyfrifoldeb hwnnw. Nid yw'n ddigon dweud, 'A oes unrhyw un am bleidleisio?' -