English: Way back in distant time, when I was in another place, in another Chamber, back in 2015, I was chairing the Environmental Audit Committee in Westminster, and we looked at the issue of Heathrow Airport. And on that committee were a range of views - it was a 17-strong committee - from ultra climate sceptics through to ultra ecologists and environmentalists. But we came to an interesting conclusion on the Government's proposals then on Heathrow, which was that, yes, Heathrow could proceed, but only with the most unprecedented massive modal shift - not only on new passengers travelling to Heathrow but on existing passengers, and not just around Heathrow, but in that area of greater western London - shifting people out of their cars, out of their reliance on cars, to avoid the issues of air pollution, of air quality, of climate warming, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So, yes, you can go ahead, it's an opportunity, but you have to do this on a scale that has never been seen before. It's curious, now, that the Government is actually coming forward to that way of thinking up there, three years later. What relevance does this have here? Jayne is absolutely right in her contribution today that the immediate focus of the work of the Ministers has got to be on Newport itself - what can be done in the immediate future. And the statement of the Minister in making the decision on this made it clear that immediate solutions need to be found in terms of traffic management, in terms of enforcement and finding ways to deal with the right here and now. But the taskforce itself, going forward, should indeed be focused on Newport, on the greater Newport area. And the terms of reference have been set out. But there is bigger issue here, and I don't think think we ought to conflate the two. That's what I would say to Rhun at this moment in time. There is a bigger issue, without a doubt. This is a Wales-wide issue. What is happening in Newport, around the Brynglas tunnels, around that side of Wales at the moment, is something that we're going to see more and more. We're seeing it now, everywhere between Pont Abraham and Port Talbot. That's where the massive growth in congestion is going to be - the next one. We're going to find gridlock down there if we don't actually respond in a very insightful way to those challenges. It's also going to be in north Wales; it's going to be every part of Wales. Now, that produces - if you pose that as the question, we start to come up with different solutions. I have to say that they are solutions that do provide challenges, but great economic opportunities as well, if we choose to go with them. So, first of all, this is a Wales-wide issue - Jayne made that point very much. The M4 is creaking along its length; many other parts of our road network are. So, is the solution to actually build more and more and more and more and more roads, or is the solution to actually focus on how we make that massive, unprecedented modal shift? I'm not talking about sandal-wearing, hippy-dippy, 'Wouldn't it be nice if we all travelled by bike?', although I do love travelling on my bike. We had a meeting of the active travel group the other day over in the Senedd. One of the chaps there from Public Health Wales did an interesting presentation. He said that if you put a bowl of fruit out in front of people at one of these receptions that we often go to around here - just a bowl of fruit with apples and whatever - most people won't choose them at all. If, however, you slice the apples up there and make it easier for people to eat them, they'll disappear just like that. There's something here that's as important about the behavioural sciences as it is about technological advances and changes. How do we make it so easy, so attractive to people, that they pick that apple up and eat it? How do we cut and slice our public transport, our modal shift offer, so it is easy? Now, some of those are part of that bigger-picture thinking, and we do need to do that now as well as the immediate solutions within Newport and the Brynglas tunnels. So, I'll pitch some of them in here, for what it's worth. Along the M4 corridor - the whole of the M4 corridor, not just the Brynglas tunnels - why wouldn't we want to be one of the first ones that actually looks at moving to light freight being moved by rail on a huge scale, where you actually load the stuff onto pallets? So, we'd take the Amazon deliveries from Swansea and where they're being distributed and we'd put the right mechanisms in place so that we can shift white vans - other colours are available, I understand - off that network. We release capacity. Why don't we look at places along the entire M4 and out into Avon and Bristol as well, where you have not park and ride per se, but car-sharing park and ride, so that people who are going into Cardiff, into Newport, from Bridgend, using those tunnels every day, are actually making the active choice, the easy-apple choice - the cut and sliced one that you can just pop in your mouth - to sit in the car with somebody else and chat as they go, or, as I do, to get on the train and work as you do it? How do we get those easy choices? Gosh, there was more I was going to say, but I've run out of time already. But that's, I think, where our thinking now needs to be. Immediately, we've got to deal with the Newport Brynglas tunnel, but are we willing to do something as ambitious as the future generations commissioner has said, and shift our funding into the areas where we can influence that modal shift - behavioural sciences as well as transport innovation? That's our challenge in Wales, but it's an opportunity as well, and we can create jobs in doing that.
Welsh: Amser maith yn ôl, pan oeddwn i mewn lle arall, mewn Siambr arall, yn ôl yn 2015, roeddwn yn cadeirio Pwyllgor Archwilio Amgylcheddol San Steffan, ac fe wnaethom ni edrych ar fater maes awyr Heathrow. Ac ar y pwyllgor hwnnw roedd ystod o safbwyntiau - roedd yn bwyllgor cryf o 17 - o amheuwyr newid hinsawdd digyfaddawd i ecolegwyr ac amgylcheddwyr digyfaddawd. Ond daethom i gasgliad diddorol ynglŷn â chynigion y Llywodraeth bryd hynny ynglŷn â Heathrow, sef, gallai, fe allai Heathrow fynd ymlaen, ond dim ond gyda'r newid moddol enfawr mwyaf digynsail - nid yn unig o ran teithwyr newydd yn teithio i Heathrow ond o ran t eithwyr presennol, ac nid yn unig o amgylch Heathrow, ond yn yr ardal honno o orllewin Llundain - gan symud pobl allan o'u ceir, o'u dibyniaeth ar geir, i osgoi llygredd aer, ansawdd aer, cynhesu'r hinsawdd, ac ati, ac ati, ac ati. Felly, gallwch, fe allwch chi fwrw ymlaen, mae'n gyfle, ond rhaid ichi wneud hyn ar raddfa na welwyd ei math erioed o'r blaen. Mae'n rhyfedd, bellach, fod y Llywodraeth mewn gwirionedd yn dechrau arddel y ffordd honno o feddwl, dair blynedd yn ddiweddarach. Sut mae hyn yn berthnasol yn y fan yma? Mae Jayne yn hollol gywir yn ei chyfraniad heddiw bod yn rhaid i waith y Gweinidogion ganolbwyntio'n bennaf ar Gasnewydd ei hun - beth a ellir ei wneud yn y dyfodol agos. Ac roedd datganiad y Gweinidog wrth wneud y penderfyniad ar hyn yn ei gwneud hi'n glir bod angen canfod atebion uniongyrchol o ran rheoli traffig, o ran gorfodi a chanfod ffyrdd o wneud yr hyn sy'n briodol, nawr. Ond dylai'r tasglu ei hun, yn y dyfodol, ganolbwyntio'n wir ar Gasnewydd, ar ardal ehangach Casnewydd. Ac mae'r cylch gorchwyl wedi ei lunio. Ond mae yna fater pwysicach yma, a dydw i ddim yn credu y dylem ni gyfuno'r ddau. Dyna fyddwn i'n ei ddweud wrth Rhun ar hyn o bryd. Mae yna broblem fwy, yn ddi-os. Mae hwn yn fater sy'n ymwneud â Chymru gyfan. Mae'r hyn sy'n digwydd yng Nghasnewydd, o amgylch twnelau Bryn-glas, yn y parthau hynny o Gymru ar hyn o bryd, yn rhywbeth yr ydym ni'n mynd i'w weld fwyfwy. Rydym ni'n gweld hynny nawr, ym mhob man rhwng Pont Abraham a Phort Talbot. Dyna ble bydd y twf enfawr mewn tagfeydd - y rhai nesaf. Rydym ni'n mynd i weld tagfeydd yn y fan yna os nad ydym ni'n ymateb mewn modd craff iawn i'r heriau hynny. Bydd hynny hefyd yn wir yn y gogledd; bydd yn wir ym mhob rhan o Gymru. Nawr, mae hynny'n cynhyrchu - os mai dyna'r cwestiwn yr ydym ni'n ei ofyn, rydym ni'n dechrau meddwl am atebion gwahanol. Rhaid imi ddweud eu bod yn atebion sydd yn cynnig heriau, ond cyfleoedd economaidd mawr hefyd, os ydym yn dewis bwrw ymlaen â nhw. Felly, yn gyntaf oll, mae hwn yn fater i Gymru gyfan - rhoddodd Jayne bwyslais mawr ar hynny. Mae'r M4 dan ei sang; mae llawer o rannau eraill o'n rhwydwaith ffyrdd felly hefyd. Felly, ai'r ateb yw adeiladu mwy a mwy a mwy a mwy o ffyrdd, ynteu ai'r ateb yw canolbwyntio mewn difrif calon ar y modd y gwnawn ni'r newid moddol anferth, digynsail hwnnw? Dydw i ddim yn sôn am agwedd rhyw hipi mewn sandalau 'oni fyddai hi'n wych pe byddem ni i gyd yn teithio ar feic?', er fy mod i wrth fy modd yn teithio ar fy meic. Cawsom gyfarfod o'r grŵp teithio llesol y diwrnod o'r blaen yn y Senedd. Rhoddodd un o weithwyr Iechyd Cyhoeddus Cymru gyflwyniad diddorol. Dywedodd petai chi'n rhoi powlen o ffrwythau o flaen pobl yn un o'r derbyniadau hyn y byddwn yn mynd iddynt yn aml yn y parthau hyn - dim ond powlen o ffrwythau gydag afalau a beth bynnag - ni fyddai'r rhan fwyaf o bobl yn eu dewis o gwbl. Fodd bynnag, petaech yn torri'r afalau'n ddarnau ac yn ei gwneud hi'n haws i bobl eu bwyta, byddent yn diflannu ar eu hunion. Mae rhywbeth yn y fan yma sydd mor bwysig am y gwyddorau ymddygiadol ag ydyw am ddatblygiadau a newidiadau technolegol. Sut mae ei gwneud hi mor hawdd, mor atyniadol i bobl, fel eu bod yn codi'r afal hwnnw ac yn ei fwyta? Sut mae cyflwyno ac addasu ein trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus, ein cynnig newid moddol, fel ei fod yn hawdd ei ddefnyddio? Nawr, mae peth o hynny'n rhan o'r darlun ehangach hwnnw o feddwl, ac mae angen inni wneud hynny nawr yn ogystal â chanfod atebion ar unwaith ar gyfer Casnewydd a thwnelau Bryn-glas. Felly, fe wnaf i gyflwyno rhai ohonyn nhw yn y fan yma, a phenderfynwch chi. Ar hyd coridor yr M4 - holl goridor yr M4, nid twnelau Bryn-glas yn unig - pam na fyddem ni eisiau bod yn un o'r rhai cyntaf sy'n edrych mewn gwirionedd ar ddechrau cludo nwyddau ysgafn ar y rheilffyrdd ar raddfa enfawr, lle'r ydych chi mewn gwirionedd yn llwytho cynnyrch ar baledau? Felly, byddem yn cymryd cynnyrch Amazon o Abertawe a lle maent yn cael eu dosbarthu a byddem yn rhoi'r mecanweithiau cywir ar waith fel y gallwn ni symud faniau gwyn - ac mae lliwiau eraill ar gael, yn ôl a ddeallaf - oddi ar y rhwydwaith hwnnw. Rydym yn rhyddhau capasiti. Pam na wnawn ni edrych ar leoedd ar hyd yr M4 cyfan ac allan i Avon a Bryste hefyd, lle nad parcio a theithio sydd gennych chi yng ngwir ystyr y gair, ond parcio a theithio ar gyfer rhannu ceir, fel bod pobl sy'n mynd i Gaerdydd, i Gasnewydd, o Ben-y-bont ar Ogwr, sy'n defnyddio'r twnelau hynny bob dydd, yn gwneud y dewis gweithredol, y dewis hawdd fel gyda'r afal - y darnau bach sydd wedi eu torri y gallwch chi eu rhoi yn eich ceg yn ddidrafferth - i eistedd yn y car gyda rhywun arall a sgwrsio wrth iddyn nhw fynd, neu, fel yr wyf fi yn ei wneud, i fynd ar y trên a gweithio wrth i chi wneud hynny? Sut allwn ni gael y dewisiadau hawdd hynny? Bobl bach, roedd mwy gennyf i'w ddweud, ond mae fy amser wedi dod i ben yn barod. Ond dyna, rwy'n credu, yw'r hyn y mae angen i ni fod yn meddwl amdano nawr. Ar fyrder, rhaid inni ymdrin â thwnnel Bryn-glas yng Nghasnewydd, ond a ydym ni'n barod i wneud rhywbeth mor uchelgeisiol ag y mae comisiynydd cenedlaethau'r dyfodol wedi'i ddweud, a symud ein cyllid i'r meysydd lle gallwn ni ddylanwadu ar y newid moddol hwnnw - gwyddorau ymddygiadol hefyd ynghyd ag arloesedd trafnidiaeth? Dyna ein her yng Nghymru, ond mae'n gyfle hefyd, a gallwn greu swyddi wrth wneud hynny.