English: Thank you, Llywydd. I'd like to formally move the amendments 43 and 47, tabled in my name. Amendment 43, Minister, is a probing amendment and it relates to requiring NHS bodies and local authorities to work together where a complaint is raised, which relates to both of them, and amendment 47 is consequential to amendment 43. Now, these amendments are based on evidence submitted by the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales to the committee during Stage 1 and further discussions that we've had at Stages 2 and 3. In written evidence, the ombudsman noted his disappointment that the Welsh Government did not proceed with its proposals on joint investigations and the alignment of NHS social services complaints procedures within its White Paper. And I know that this has raised concern with a number of Members, because more often, now, people are having support from the NHS and from social services. And if there is an issue, sometimes it's extremely difficult to say whether the issue is on the health bit or the social services bit, or it might be an issue that actually connects with both. Then to ask the citizen to start two separate complaints processes or raising their concerns via two separate processes for the same issue is actually a big ask, and this is all about making the life of the citizen more direct, easier to manage and less confrontational. That's why I've tabled these amendments, because what we want to see is a joint system only on the instances where the complaints that are being raised are about something that affects both NHS and social services. Now, I did listen very carefully to the Minister, and that's why this is a probing amendment, because you have said that you want to have a unified complaints process. And I've also heard you say that it will take time to put in place, but it's actually very complicated in that the way an NHS complaint is processed is very different to the way a social services complaint is processed and that, very often, the NHS complaint, because it tends to be much more clinical, will often take much longer because there are far more people who have to be brought in to play and you've got to listen to the consultants and everybody who is involved in it. Whereas, quite often, a social services case might be much more direct and easier to deal with, and marrying the two different types of complaints processes can be very hard. So, I understand that and I agree with you. But what I'm concerned about is how long it might take. We already heard in the previous amendment that we're seven years on and things that were vital that had been promised still haven't happened. When we discussed this, we did talk about an anticipatory amendment, and the point of an anticipatory amendment is to have, within this Bill, the ability for the Welsh Minister to say, 'At a point in the future, guess what, health and social care, I've given you all this time to get your act together, to put your complaints processes together, to help the citizen' - and this is all about helping the citizen - 'you still haven't done it, so now I'm going to enact this bit of the Bill that will make you get on and do it.' This is what amendments 43 and 47 are about. I am concerned that there's been a row-back on our discussions over an anticipatory amendment. I do accept you haven't given up on the ambition to have a more unified complaints process. I do welcome your promise that officials will look to arrange a round-table discussion before the summer recess, with the relevant departments. I do think this is still in danger of being kicked into the long grass again, without a statutory commitment. This is why I've put these amendments forward. I'd be interested to hear, Minister, what you have to say. These amendments allow you to draw together all the stakeholders that need to be consulted. They allow you to drive a future joint complaints process forward through a regulatory framework. In consultation with the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales, we believe that agreement can be reached within six months of this section coming into force, and I would urge Members to support these amendments.
Welsh: Diolch, Llywydd. Hoffwn gynnig gwelliannau 43 a 47 yn ffurfiol, a gyflwynwyd yn fy enw i. Mae gwelliant 43, Gweinidog, yn welliant treiddgar ac mae'n ymwneud â'i gwneud yn ofynnol i gyrff y GIG ac awdurdodau lleol gydweithio pan fydd cwyn yn cael ei gwneud, sy'n berthnasol i'r ddau ohonyn nhw, ac mae gwelliant 47 yn ganlyniadol i welliant 43. Nawr, mae'r gwelliannau hyn yn seiliedig ar dystiolaeth a gyflwynwyd gan Ombwdsmon Gwasanaethau Cyhoeddus Cymru i'r pwyllgor yn ystod Cyfnod 1 a thrafodaethau pellach a gawsom ni yng Nghyfnodau 2 a 3. Mewn tystiolaeth ysgrifenedig, nododd yr ombwdsmon ei siom na wnaeth Llywodraeth Cymru fwrw ymlaen â'i chynigion ar ymchwiliadau ar y cyd a chysoni gweithdrefnau cwynion gwasanaethau cymdeithasol y GIG yn ei Phapur Gwyn. A gwn fod hyn wedi codi pryderon ymhlith nifer o Aelodau, oherwydd yn amlach, nawr, mae pobl yn cael cymorth gan y GIG a chan wasanaethau cymdeithasol. Ac os oes problem, weithiau mae'n anodd iawn dweud a yw'r broblem yn ymwneud â'r rhan iechyd neu'r rhan gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, neu gallai fod yn broblem sy'n gysylltiedig â'r ddau. Mae gofyn i'r dinesydd wedyn ddechrau dwy broses gwyno ar wahân neu fynegi ei bryderon trwy ddwy broses ar wahân ar gyfer yr un mater yn ofyn mawr, a holl ddiben hyn yw gwneud bywyd y dinesydd yn fwy uniongyrchol, yn haws ei reoli ac yn llai gwrthdrawiadol. Dyna pam yr wyf i wedi cyflwyno'r gwelliannau hyn, gan mai'r hyn yr ydym ni eisiau ei weld yw system ar y cyd dim ond yn yr achosion pan fo'r cwynion sy'n cael eu gwneud yn ymwneud â rhywbeth sy'n effeithio ar y GIG a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol. Nawr, fe wnes i wrando'n astud iawn ar y Gweinidog, a dyna pam mae hwn yn welliant treiddgar, gan eich bod chi wedi dweud eich bod chi eisiau cael proses gwynion unedig. Ac rwyf i hefyd wedi eich clywed chi'n dweud y bydd yn cymryd amser i'w rhoi ar waith, ond mae'n gymhleth iawn mewn gwirionedd gan fod y ffordd y caiff cwyn yn y GIG ei phrosesu yn wahanol iawn i'r ffordd y caiff cwyn am wasanaethau cymdeithasol ei phrosesu ac, yn aml iawn, bydd y gŵyn am y GIG, gan ei bod yn tueddu i fod yn llawer mwy clinigol, yn aml yn cymryd llawer mwy o amser gan fod llawer mwy o bobl y mae'n rhaid eu cynnwys ac y mae'n rhaid i chi wrando ar y meddygon ymgynghorol a phawb sy'n ymwneud ag ef. Tra, yn aml iawn, gallai achos gwasanaethau cymdeithasol fod yn llawer mwy uniongyrchol a haws ymdrin ag ef, a gall cyfuno'r ddau wahanol fath o broses gwynion fod yn anodd iawn. Felly, rwy'n deall hynny ac rwy'n cytuno â chi. Ond yr hyn yr wyf i'n pryderu yn ei gylch yw pa mor hir y gallai ei gymryd. Clywsom eisoes yn y gwelliant blaenorol ein bod ni saith mlynedd yn ddiweddarach ac nid yw pethau a oedd yn hanfodol ac a addawyd wedi digwydd byth. Pan drafodwyd hyn gennym ni, fe wnaethom ni siarad am welliant rhagweledol, a diben gwelliant rhagweledol yw cael, o fewn y Bil hwn, y gallu i Weinidog Cymru ddweud, 'Ar adeg yn y dyfodol, wyddoch chi beth, iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol, rwyf i wedi rhoi'r holl amser yma i chi gael trefn ar bethau, i drefnu eich prosesau cwynion, i helpu'r dinesydd' - a holl ddiben hyn yw helpu'r dinesydd - 'rydych chi'n dal i fod heb ei wneud, felly nawr rwy'n mynd i ddeddfu'r rhan hon o'r Bil a fydd yn eich gorfodi i fwrw ymlaen a'i wneud.' Dyma ddiben gwelliannau 43 a 47. Rwy'n poeni y cefnwyd ar ein trafodaethau ynghylch gwelliant rhagweledol. Rwy'n derbyn nad ydych chi wedi cefnu ar yr uchelgais i gael proses gwynion fwy unedig. Rwy'n croesawu eich addewid y bydd swyddogion yn ceisio trefnu trafodaeth bwrdd crwn cyn toriad yr haf, gyda'r adrannau perthnasol. Rwy'n credu bod perygl o hyd y bydd hyn yn cael ei fwrw o'r neilltu eto, heb ymrwymiad statudol. Dyna pam yr wyf i wedi cyflwyno'r gwelliannau hyn. Byddai gen i ddiddordeb mewn clywed, Gweinidog, beth sydd gennych chi i'w ddweud. Mae'r gwelliannau hyn yn caniatáu i chi ddod â'r holl randdeiliaid y mae angen ymgynghori â nhw ynghyd. Maen nhw'n caniatáu i chi sbarduno proses gwynion ar y cyd yn y dyfodol yn ei blaen drwy fframwaith rheoleiddio. Mewn ymgynghoriad ag Ombwdsmon Gwasanaethau Cyhoeddus Cymru, rydym ni'n credu y gellir dod i gytundeb o fewn chwe mis ar ôl i'r adran hon ddod i rym, ac rwyf yn annog yr Aelodau i gefnogi'r gwelliannau hyn.