English: Thank you, Presiding Officer. What a surprise. I mean, let's be honest, we've now come to the heart of this bit of legislation in terms of the citizen voice body. Our current community health councils are extraordinary organisations. Some of them are absolutely outstanding in the work that they do. Some of them have gone out there and uncovered real problems, brought them to light, had them addressed, and sorted them out. So, this next slew of amendments that run - where are we? I think we're on group 9 - through to almost 20 are all about the citizen voice body: how it's going to operate; how it's going to be perceived by the public. And I want to remind you, before we get into the detail of these amendments, that the citizen voice body is for the people. And in the parliamentary review - which the Minister likes to remind us on an often basis we all collegiately said we would have a look at and sign up to - it was really crystal clear that, going forward, our health service would really involve people in the provision of the health service. That they would shape it; that they would help to decide the direction of travel; that they would have input; and that, going forward, their voices would really be heard. So, how do you hear their voice? Do you hear their voice through a chief executive of a health board? I don't think so, not really. Do you hear their voice through Assembly Members who come here and raise individual cases? Yes, for sure, we all do it. We all do it for all of our constituents, wherever we are. Do you hear it through any other organisations? Not a lot. Occasionally, you get some of the professional colleges getting involved in a particular issue. You mainly hear it through the citizen voice body, or what will become the citizen voice body. So, we've brought these amendments - amendments 48, 54 and 56 - back before you again; we tabled them at Stage 2. Because it's not just the reality of independence we need to see here, but we have to affirm the public's perception of independence. I said this at Stage 2, and I'm going to say it again and remind the Minister, and it was a comment by the ombudsman who, actually, I have come to really respect for the work that he does for the people of Wales in that role as ombudsman, he said that without independence, 'there will be this perception that it's perhaps poodle-like for some; they won't have the teeth.' And I couldn't agree more. I'm disappointed, Minister, that you've re-tabled your amendments for Stage 2 - now numbered 5, 12 and 14. It was noted at Stage 2 that there isn't much to say that the public appointments process would be more suitable for the body's independence. Rather, using the Assembly as a way of guaranteeing independent members who'd be able to challenge the Minister and health boards without fear of recrimination or loss of office. I asked the Minister several questions on independence at Stage 2, which I don't think have been sufficiently answered by the public appointments process, and especially when, here in Wales, we have a very small pool of people to choose from; people who are very often connected in other non-governmental organisation, third sector or governmental roles. You know, it's not something to be embarrassed about; it's a fact of life, we have to face it and make sure that we put the right processes in place to make sure that the citizen voice body has, as a chair, a totally independent person. So, Minister, I note that you claim your approach offers safeguards, but I just don't believe it, and I would ask Members to seriously think about this. This is the voice of the citizen. This is their one and only place where they can really hold us, the health boards, the Minister, the whole of the NHS, to account. We must let them be independent. Please pass these amendments 48, 54 and 56.
Welsh: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Am syndod. A bod yn onest, rydym bellach wedi dod at wraidd y darn hwn o ddeddfwriaeth o ran corff llais y dinesydd. Mae ein cynghorau iechyd cymuned presennol yn sefydliadau eithriadol. Mae rhai ohonynt yn hollol ragorol yn y gwaith a wnânt. Mae rhai ohonynt wedi mynd allan yno ac wedi datgelu problemau gwirioneddol, wedi tynnu sylw atynt, wedi mynd i'r afael â nhw, ac wedi'u datrys. Felly, y llwyth nesaf o welliannau sy'n rhedeg - ble'r ydym ni? Rwy'n credu ein bod ni ar grŵp 9 - hyd at bron 20 i gyd yn ymwneud â chorff llais y dinesydd: sut mae'n mynd i weithredu; sut mae'n mynd i gael ei weld gan y cyhoedd. A hoffwn eich atgoffa, cyn inni fanylu ar y gwelliannau hyn, fod corff llais y dinesydd ar gyfer y bobl. Ac yn yr adolygiad seneddol - y mae'r Gweinidog yn hoffi ein hatgoffa yn aml ein bod ni i gyd wedi dweud fel grŵp y byddem yn ei ystyried ac yn cytuno arno - roedd yn gwbl glir y byddai ein gwasanaeth iechyd, wrth symud ymlaen, yn cynnwys pobl wrth ddarparu'r gwasanaeth iechyd. Byddai pobl yn ei siapio; bydden nhw yn helpu i benderfynu ar gyfeiriad y daith; byddai ganddyn nhw fewnbwn; a byddai eu lleisiau, wrth symud ymlaen, yn cael eu clywed. Felly, sut ydych chi'n clywed eu llais? A ydych yn clywed eu llais drwy brif weithredwr bwrdd iechyd? Dydw i ddim yn meddwl hynny, nid mewn gwirionedd. A glywch eu llais drwy Aelodau'r Cynulliad sy'n dod yma ac yn codi achosion unigol? Ydym, rydym i gyd yn ei wneud. Rydym i gyd yn gwneud hynny ar ran ein holl etholwyr, lle bynnag yr ydym. A ydych yn clywed eu llais drwy unrhyw sefydliadau eraill? Dim llawer. O bryd i'w gilydd, bydd rhai o'r colegau proffesiynol yn ymwneud â mater penodol. Byddwch yn ei glywed yn bennaf drwy gorff llais y dinesydd, neu'r hyn a ddaw'n gorff llais y dinesydd. Felly, rydym wedi cyflwyno'r gwelliannau hyn - gwelliannau 48, 54 a 56 - yn ôl ger eich bron eto; fe'u cyflwynwyd gennym yng Nghyfnod 2. Nid realiti annibyniaeth yn unig y mae angen inni ei weld yma, ond mae'n rhaid inni gadarnhau canfyddiad y cyhoedd o annibyniaeth. Dywedais hyn yng Nghyfnod 2, ac rwyf yn mynd i'w ddweud eto ac atgoffa'r Gweinidog, ac roedd yn sylw a wnaed gan yr ombwdsmon yr wyf i, mewn gwirionedd, yn ei barchu'n fawr am y gwaith a wna dros bobl Cymru yn y swydd honno fel ombwdsmon, fe ddywedodd ef, heb annibyniaeth, y byddai gan rai'r canfyddiad ei fod o bosib yn debyg i bwdl; ni fyddai ganddyn nhw'r dannedd. Ac ni allwn gytuno mwy. Rwy'n siomedig, Gweinidog, eich bod wedi ail-gyflwyno eich gwelliannau ar gyfer cyfnod 2 - sydd wedi'u rhifo'n 5, 12 a 14 erbyn hyn. Nodwyd yng Nghyfnod 2 nad oes llawer i awgrymu y byddai'r broses penodiadau cyhoeddus yn fwy addas ar gyfer annibyniaeth y corff. Yn hytrach, defnyddir y Cynulliad fel ffordd o warantu aelodau annibynnol a fyddai'n gallu herio'r Gweinidog a'r byrddau iechyd heb ofn cael eu cyhuddo neu golli eu swydd. Gofynnais nifer o gwestiynau i'r Gweinidog ar annibyniaeth yng Nghyfnod 2, nad wyf yn credu iddynt gael eu hateb yn ddigonol gan y broses benodiadau cyhoeddus, ac yn enwedig o ystyried bod gennym ni, yma yng Nghymru, gronfa fach iawn o bobl i ddewis ohonynt; pobl sy'n aml iawn yn gysylltiedig â swyddi anllywodraethol eraill, y trydydd sector neu gyrff llywodraethol. Wyddoch chi, nid rhywbeth i deimlo cywilydd yn ei gylch yw hyn; mae'n un o ffeithiau bywyd, mae'n rhaid ei wynebu a gwneud yn siŵr ein bod yn rhoi'r prosesau cywir ar waith i sicrhau bod gan gorff llais y dinesydd berson cwbl annibynnol yn gadeirydd. Felly, Gweinidog, sylwaf eich bod yn honni bod eich dull chi o weithredu yn cynnig camau diogelwch, ond nid wyf yn credu hynny, a byddwn yn gofyn i'r Aelodau feddwl o ddifrif am hyn. Dyma lais y dinesydd. Hwn yw'r unig le y gallant ein dal ni, y byrddau iechyd, y Gweinidog, y GIG cyfan, i gyfrif. Rhaid inni adael iddyn nhw fod yn annibynnol. Felly a fyddech cystal â phasio gwelliannau 48, 54 a 56.