English: I'm particularly concerned that, as the figures have grown, the focus has gone much more onto containment rather than training and rehabilitation, because those violent offenders usually do come out at some point, and there's a serious job there to ensure that they don't remain a threat to society. They do require very serious treatment and rehabilitation. I think we ought to look at this whole question from the point of view of the various jurisdictions at the moment, so the jurisdictions that have policy over prisons - penal policy - are England and Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. While Scotland has a similar pattern of imprisonment to England and Wales, although it is a bit lower, the pattern in Northern Ireland is vastly lower. It approaches much more the best practice in western European countries. I think that if we were to take responsibility for criminal justice, and the reason I've argued, over the years, for criminal justice policy is that it would allow us the most important thing, it would allow us to set sentencing policy and control our prisons. If you look at federal systems around the world, it's very common for community level policing and for most issues relating to criminal justice and the prison system to be at the level of the federal unit, and central Government retains responsibility for very high crimes and misdemeanours, the likes of terrorism and high-security prisons. That division seems to me a very logical one. I'm very concerned that we don't always realise how bad the situation is in Welsh prisons for which we have responsibility to provide health services and education services. Swansea and Cardiff prisons are badly overcrowded. Both of them are in, I believe, the top-10 most overcrowded prisons; that means over 150 per cent capacity. This, I think, is a serious concern to us. Jenny has referred to international comparisons, and this statistic that we have the highest level of imprisonment in western Europe certainly makes me uncomfortable. If it were working, I suppose you could then have the basis of an argument, 'Well, you know, we are tougher for very good reason,' but I have to say that I think there is a very, very sound centre-right argument for a considerable reduction in the number of people we imprison. I'd like to go back, if not to the 1920s, when the average prison population fluctuated between 10,000 and 14,000, at least to the 1980s, the age of Thatcher, when the prison population hovered around about 45,000. There was a great increase in the 1990s under both Governments - sorry, both a Conservative Government and then a Labour Government continued this pattern. We really have gone in the wrong direction. There are some categories of this question that I think need particular reflection, as well: the number of care leavers in prison is something that we need to be very much aware of. Lord Laming's report last year, or just the year before, into the number of looked-after children that are brought into the criminal justice system because of patterns that are not applied to their peer group, but get applied to them because they are, quite frankly, seen as liable to be potential offenders, again, greatly troubles me. But I do not think this is a particularly partisan issue. There are very, very sound arguments both on the left and the right for a better prison policy than we currently have, both on grounds of humanity, but also in terms of the effectiveness of what we're doing. At the moment, the system is failing, and it needs to change.
Welsh: Rwy'n arbennig o bryderus, wrth i'r ffigurau gynyddu, fod y ffocws wedi symud lawer mwy at gadw dan glo yn hytrach na hyfforddi ac adsefydlu, oherwydd fel arfer bydd troseddwyr treisgar yn dod allan ar ryw adeg, ac mae gwaith mawr yno i sicrhau nad ydynt yn parhau'n fygythiad i gymdeithas. Maent angen eu trin yn ddifrifol iawn a'u hadsefydlu. Credaf y dylem edrych ar yr holl beth o safbwynt y gwahanol awdurdodaethau ar hyn o bryd, felly yr awdurdodaethau sydd â pholisïau'n ymwneud â charchardai - polisi cosbi - yw Cymru a Lloegr, yr Alban a Gogledd Iwerddon. Er bod gan yr Alban batrwm tebyg o garcharu i'r hyn a geir yng Nghymru a Lloegr, er ei fod dipyn yn is, mae'r patrwm yng Ngogledd Iwerddon yn llawer is. Mae'n llawer tebycach i'r arferion gorau a geir yng ngwledydd gorllewin Ewrop. Yn fy marn i, pe baem yn mabwysiadu cyfrifoldeb dros gyfiawnder troseddol, a'r rheswm rwyf wedi dadlau dros y blynyddoedd dros gael polisi cyfiawnder troseddol yw y byddai'n caniatáu inni wneud y peth pwysicaf, byddai'n caniatáu inni osod polisi dedfrydu a rheoli ein carchardai. Os edrychwch ar systemau ffederal o gwmpas y byd, mae'n gyffredin iawn i blismona ar lefel gymunedol a'r rhan fwyaf o faterion sy'n ymwneud â chyfiawnder troseddol a'r system garchardai fod ar lefel yr uned ffederal, a bod y Llywodraeth ganolog yn cadw'r cyfrifoldeb am droseddau a chamymddwyn difrifol iawn, tebyg i derfysgaeth a charchardai diogel. Mae'r rhaniad hwnnw i'w weld yn un rhesymegol iawn i mi. Rwy'n bryderus iawn nad ydym bob amser yn sylweddoli pa mor wael yw'r sefyllfa yn y carchardai yng Nghymru y mae gennym gyfrifoldeb i ddarparu gwasanaethau addysg a gwasanaethau iechyd ar eu cyfer. Mae carchardai Abertawe a Chaerdydd yn orlawn iawn. Rwy'n credu bod y ddau garchar ymhlith y 10 carchar mwyaf gorlawn; golyga hynny dros 150 y cant o'r capasiti. Mae hyn yn destun pryder difrifol i ni. Mae Jenny wedi cyfeirio at gymariaethau rhyngwladol, ac yn sicr mae'r ystadegyn mai gennym ni y mae'r lefel uchaf o garchariadau yng ngorllewin Ewrop yn fy ngwneud yn anghyfforddus. Pe bai'n gweithio, mae'n debyg y gallech gael sail i ddadl, 'Wel, wyddoch chi, mae rheswm da iawn pam rydym yn fwy llym,' ond rhaid i mi ddweud fod yna ddadl dde-ganol dros ostyngiad sylweddol yn nifer y bobl a garcharwn. Hoffwn fynd yn ôl, os nad i'r 1920au, pan oedd poblogaeth gyfartalog y carchardai yn amrywio rhwng 10,000 a 14,000, o leiaf i'r 1980au, oes Thatcher, pan oedd poblogaeth y carchardai yn hofran o gwmpas tua 45,000. Bu cynnydd mawr yn y 1990au o dan y ddwy Lywodraeth - mae'n ddrwg gennyf, cafodd y patrwm hwn ei barhau gan Lywodraeth Geidwadol a Llywodraeth Lafur wedyn. Rydym wedi mynd i'r cyfeiriad cwbl anghywir. Ceir rhai categorïau o'r cwestiwn hwn y credaf eu bod yn galw am ystyriaeth arbennig hefyd: mae nifer y rhai sy'n gadael gofal sydd yn y carchar yn rhywbeth y mae angen inni fod yn ymwybodol iawn ohono. Roedd adroddiad yr Arglwydd Laming y llynedd, neu'r flwyddyn cyn hynny, ar nifer y plant sy'n derbyn gofal sy'n cael eu dwyn i mewn i'r system cyfiawnder troseddol oherwydd patrymau nad ydynt wedi'u cymhwyso i'w grŵp cyfoedion, ond sy'n cael eu cymhwyso iddynt am eu bod, a dweud y gwir, yn cael eu gweld fel rhai sy'n dueddol o fod yn droseddwyr posibl, yn fy mhoeni'n fawr. Ond nid wyf yn credu bod hwn yn fater sy'n dilyn rhaniadau pleidiol amlwg. Ceir dadleuon cadarn iawn ar y chwith ac ar y dde dros weld polisi carcharu gwell na'r hyn sydd gennym ar hyn o bryd, ar sail dyngarwch, ond hefyd o ran effeithiolrwydd yr hyn rydym yn ei wneud. Ar hyn o bryd, mae'r system yn methu, ac mae angen ei newid.