English: I'm pleased to hear that, Cabinet Secretary. I listened with interest to your exchange with my colleague Janet Finch-Saunders earlier. It did strike me that it was very much groundhog day in terms of the conversation that you had. I have to say that I did agree with you on your comment that you should be - as I often do, actually; it's only big things we disagree. [ Interruption.] I'm getting there. [ Laughter.] I'm not used to being heckled by my own side. [ Laughter.] We should be devolving powers to effective local centres of democracy, which is, I think, the expression that you used. I think also that you're right in saying that you, as Welsh Government, do need a meaningful relationship with local government. I think local government would love to have a meaningful relationship with Welsh Government as well. And I think there are two sides to this coin. I think where we do differ, Cabinet Secretary, is that, whilst we all accept that there should be, over time, organic change and reform to local government and to structures of delivering public services across Wales - we've got the city regions as a classic example of how things change - what we have to do is put the citizen at the centre of this. Where our side differs from yours is that we feel that you're putting the structure first, and that is wrong. That hasn't worked in the past and that won't work in the future. So, will you go back to the drawing board, have discussions with your colleagues, in local government hopefully, or whoever you need to have those discussions with, but come back with proposals for how you're going to put the citizen at the centre and have a system that really does deliver the sort of regenerative, transformative change in local government that we all desperately want to see but which doesn't simply sacrifice everything on the altar of reorganisation?
Welsh: Rwy'n falch o glywed hynny, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet. Gwrandewais gyda diddordeb ar eich trafodaeth gyda fy nghyd-Aelod Janet Finch-Saunders yn gynharach. Cefais fy nharo ein bod wedi cael y ddadl a gawsoch sawl gwaith o'r blaen. Rhaid imi ddweud fy mod yn cytuno â'ch sylw y dylech fod - fel rwy'n ei wneud yn aml, mewn gwirionedd; ar y pethau mawr yn unig yr ydym yn anghytuno. [ Torri ar draws.] Rwy'n cyrraedd yno. [ Chwerthin.] Nid wyf yn gyfarwydd â chael fy heclo gan fy ochr fy hun. [ Chwerthin.] Dylem ddatganoli pwerau i ganolfannau democratiaeth leol effeithiol, sef, rwy'n meddwl, yr ymadrodd a ddefnyddiwyd gennych. Hefyd, credaf eich bod yn iawn i ddweud eich bod chi, fel Llywodraeth Cymru, angen perthynas ystyrlon â llywodraeth leol. Credaf y byddai llywodraeth leol wrth eu bodd yn cael perthynas ystyrlon gyda Llywodraeth Cymru yn ogystal. A chredaf y ceir dwy ochr i'r geiniog hon. Rwy'n credu mai lle rydym yn anghytuno, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, yw, er bod pob un ohonom yn derbyn y dylai fod newid organig dros amser, a diwygio llywodraeth leol a strwythurau darparu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus ledled Cymru - mae gennym y dinas-ranbarthau fel enghraifft glasurol o sut y mae pethau yn newid - yr hyn sy'n rhaid ei wneud yw rhoi'r dinesydd ynghanol hyn. Lle mae ein hochr ni yn wahanol i'ch un chi yw ein bod yn teimlo eich bod yn rhoi'r strwythur yn gyntaf, ac mae hynny'n anghywir. Nid yw hynny wedi gweithio yn y gorffennol ac ni fydd yn gweithio yn y dyfodol. Felly, a wnewch chi ailfeddwl, cael trafodaethau gyda'ch cydweithwyr llywodraeth leol, gobeithio, neu bwy bynnag y mae angen i chi gael y trafodaethau hynny â hwy, ond dychwelyd â chynigion ar gyfer sut rydych yn mynd i roi'r dinesydd yn y canol a chael system sydd o ddifrif yn darparu'r math o newid trawsffurfiol, adfywiol mewn llywodraeth leol y mae pawb ohonom am ei weld yn ddirfawr, ond newid nad yw'n aberthu popeth ar allor ad-drefnu?