English: I'm slightly puzzled by the conclusion to Michelle Brown's speech. I had understood that she supported the general principles of the Bill at the committee, but clearly has given it more and more thought or perhaps consulted with colleagues over the summer and will now be voting against them. However, it's equally if not even more difficult to understand where the Minister is on this. I was looking forward to hearing him today juggling between his two hats, (1) as the Minister who supports limiting this to working parents, and (2) as the leadership contender whose main policy was to open this up to everyone and to ensure that the poorest families would benefit. However, he's resolved the situation by having ended his leadership campaign prior to coming here. In many ways, that's a shame. But I think there is a puzzle to this Bill, because it seems to me that Labour members are keen in general that the children's commissioner, what she says - that the benefit should go to the lowest earning families, yet they have a Bill that specifically excludes them from it - or large numbers of them from it - by saying, 'This help can only go to working parents.' The Minister says in his report on page 5: 'Welsh Ministers already have the necessary powers to bring forward additional programmes of support as required'. But I don't believe that that is the case, at least with what we're trying to do with this Bill, which is to have a system where HMRC efficiently, because they've got the systems in place already, checks eligibility. And what we're doing is having a piece of legislation that, whatever Ministers want to do in future, however much money they have, whatever their priorities, whatever the Minister says he believes as a leadership contender - that the legislation will prevent them being able to extend the scheme to non-working parents. Now, I understand that resources are tight, and I support having this for working parents because I think it will allow more parents, particularly women, after having children disproportionately, to get back into the workforce if that is what they want to do. And I also think that, when we have income tax devolution from next April, there may be some benefit to other spending programmes or even potentially for tax relief, although I doubt that with this Government in charge, because if it does help more people get into the workplace, that will lead to a higher tax yield, potentially, which in turn can fund other programmes. But what I don't understand is why Labour Members and Ministers at least when they have one hat on tell us that they don't support this programme and yet, when they come to this house to argue for it, it's essential that it's working parents only. All the committee is saying is: why not give yourself flexibility if, at some point in the future, you decide that resources allow and you want to extend this to other groups - why not give yourself that flexibility? Yet you come and say that no, you won't do that. [ Interruption. ] I give way.
Welsh: Rwyf wedi drysu braidd gan ddiwedd araith Michelle Brown. Roeddwn wedi deall ei bod hi'n cefnogi egwyddorion cyffredinol y Bil yn y Pwyllgor, ond yn amlwg mae hi wedi rhoi mwy a mwy o ystyriaeth iddo neu efallai wedi ymgynghori â chydweithwyr dros yr haf a bydd bellach yn pleidleisio yn eu herbyn. Fodd bynnag, mae'r un mor anodd neu'n fwy anodd deall safbwynt y Gweinidog ar hyn. Roeddwn yn edrych ymlaen at ei glywed yn jyglo heddiw rhwng ei ddwy het, (1) fel y Gweinidog sy'n cefnogi cyfyngu ar hyn i rieni sy'n gweithio, a (2) fel ymgeisydd am yr arweinyddiaeth yr oedd ei brif bolisi'n ymwneud ag agor hyn i bawb a sicrhau y byddai'r teuluoedd tlotaf yn elwa. Fodd bynnag, mae wedi datrys y sefyllfa drwy ddod â'i ymgyrch arweinyddiaeth i ben cyn dod yma. Mewn sawl ffordd, mae hynny'n drueni. Ond credaf fod pos ynglŷn â'r Bil hwn, oherwydd ymddengys i mi fod Aelodau Llafur yn awyddus yn gyffredinol bod y Comisiynydd Plant, yr hyn a ddywed - y dylai'r budd fynd i'r teuluoedd sy'n ennill y cyflogau isaf, ac eto i gyd mae ganddyn nhw Fil sy'n eu heithrio'n benodol o hynny - neu nifer fawr ohonynt - drwy ddweud, 'Dim ond i rieni sy'n gweithio y gall y cymorth hwn fynd.' Dywed y Gweinidog yn ei adroddiad ar dudalen 5: 'Mae gan Weinidogion Cymru y pwerau angenrheidiol eisoes i gyflwyno rhaglenni ychwanegol o gymorth yn ôl y gofyn'. Ond nid wyf yn credu bod hynny'n wir, o leiaf gyda'r hyn yr ydym ni'n ceisio ei wneud gyda'r Bil hwn, sef cael system lle mae Cyllid a Thollau EM, gan fod ganddynt systemau ar waith eisoes, yn gwirio cymhwystra yn effeithlon. A'r hyn yr ydym yn ei wneud yw cael darn o ddeddfwriaeth, beth bynnag y mae'r Gweinidogion yn awyddus i'w wneud yn y dyfodol, faint bynnag o arian sydd ganddynt, beth bynnag yw eu blaenoriaethau, beth bynnag y dywed y Gweinidog y mae'n ei gredu fel ymgeisydd am yr arweinyddiaeth - y bydd y ddeddfwriaeth yn atal eu gallu i ymestyn y cynllun i rieni nad ydynt yn gweithio. Nawr, rwy'n deall bod yr adnoddau'n brin, ac rwyf o blaid cael hyn ar gyfer rhieni sy'n gweithio oherwydd credaf y bydd yn caniatáu i fwy o rieni, yn enwedig menywod, ar ôl cael plant, allu dychwelyd i'r gweithlu os ydynt yn dymuno gwneud hynny. A chredaf hefyd, pan fydd gennym ddatganoli treth incwm o fis Ebrill nesaf ymlaen, efallai y bydd rhywfaint o fudd i raglenni gwariant eraill neu hyd yn oed o bosibl ar gyfer gostyngiad yn y dreth, er fy mod yn amau hynny gyda'r Llywodraeth hon mewn grym. Oherwydd os yw'n helpu mwy o bobl i ymuno â'r gweithle, bydd hynny'n arwain at dreth uwch, o bosibl, a all, yn ei dro, ariannu rhaglenni eraill. Ond nid wyf yn deall pam mae Aelodau Llafur a Gweinidogion, o leiaf pan fydd ganddyn nhw un het ar eu pen, yn dweud wrthym nad ydyn nhw'n cefnogi'r rhaglen hon, ond eto i gyd, pan fyddant yn dod i'r tŷ hwn i ddadlau dros hynny, mae'n hanfodol eu bod yn rhieni sy'n gweithio yn unig. Yr unig beth sydd gan y Pwyllgor i'w ddweud yw hyn: pam na allwch fod yn hyblyg os penderfynwch, ar ryw adeg yn y dyfodol, fod adnoddau yn caniatáu hynny a'ch bod yn dymuno ymestyn hyn i gynnwys grwpiau eraill - pan na allwch fod yn hyblyg? Ac eto rydych yn dod yma ac yn dweud na, ni allwch wneud hynny. [ Torri ar draws. ] Rwy'n ildio.