English: Thank you. As Members here are aware, I represent you on the Assembly Members' pension fund, and there are people from different age groups in here who will probably know exactly how much pension they've got coming. I just ask how you would feel if what happened to the ASW pensioners happened to you. [ Interruption.] I can tell you what you've got, Bethan, if you'd want me to at another stage. [ Laughter.] Pensions are, effectively, deferred wages, and, as Bethan Sayed said, Allied Steel and Wire staff have not received the full value of their pensions. They've had the money taken off them. This inevitably's going to mean, for some individuals, financial hardship that they were not expecting. They knew how much they were going to get - . And can I just help people - ? The nearer you get to retirement age, the more interest people take in the amount of money they've got in their pensions. People expect their pensions there as they were expected to be, and not to be recalibrated downwards. This is about justice and showing moral leadership, and it's not a large sum of money in terms of Government, and I think it's unfortunate that they're not prepared to find a relatively small sum. Perhaps we ought to say it's a war, then they'll provide plenty of money for it. Andrew Davies, I agree with you entirely. The shortfall has taken people's futures away from them. Each worker has had their retirement affected very badly. Some have had it made very different to what they were expecting. It's an injustice, and an injustice that needs correcting. We need to show that we support them so the right thing for them can be done. Mick Antoniw - again, it's a very just case. I think that's been something that's been a comment from everybody who has spoken. They're entitled to justice. This is not about asking for charity. It's not about asking for something over and above what people can expect: it's about justice, and, for me, here, if anything, it's a fight for those who are less well off and who are not getting justice. Anomalies in the pensions industry - I think it's unfortunate we moved into the post-1979 period where greed was good and deregulation was good and allowed companies to opt out, as Mick Antoniw said, and take money out, not provide for risk, and gaps in the pension fund, when they come to being paid, are paid for by the workers who paid into that pension fund. I think that's incredibly sad for those who are involved. And, remember, if you weren't sitting in here now, it could be you. I think Mick Antoniw's view of a royal commission on pensions is a very good one. I don't think we're going to get one, but I think it's something we should be asking for. Dai Lloyd - Government-backed pension security scheme, which everybody thought was going to be the answer. Well, I think ASW workers have found out it wasn't, and I think that is sad, because when schemes are brought in that are expected to deal with something where people know there are anomalies, then it's very sad that they fail. And ASW workers continually - . And I'm going to keep on using this word - fairness. And I'm glad the Minister described ASW as a 'grave injustice'. They've been denied what they expected. The Government is supporting the former ASW workers, and I'm glad they've got support from the Welsh Government. I'm very glad - and I think that Dai Lloyd's made the right decision to call it so that we can have a named vote of everybody who actually supports it, but it cannot be right that people who are getting on now in years, people who are retired in their 60s and at the end of their 70s are still worrying about the pension, and as Bethan Sayed can also tell you with the Visteon campaign, there were a lot of people who died waiting for pension justice. I think that, perhaps, one of the saddest things is that people are awaiting that justice and they never get it, and maybe a portion of it will make its way to their next of kin, but they never get the justice that they've been campaigning for and fighting for. I think we ought to be fully behind ASW workers. We ought to say, 'We think you deserve justice, and we think the Westminster Government should provide the money', which, in terms of Government expenditure, is a relatively small amount - perhaps one less missile and we'd be able to pay it. I think that, really, we want a situation where the money is provided and people get what they deserve. So, I hope everybody here in this room will support it.
Welsh: Diolch. Fel y mae'r Aelodau yma'n gwybod, rwy'n eich cynrychioli ar gronfa bensiwn Aelodau'r Cynulliad, ac mae pobl o wahanol grwpiau oedran yma a fydd mae'n debyg yn gwybod yn union faint o bensiwn sydd ar y ffordd iddynt. Rwy'n gofyn i chi sut y byddech yn teimlo pe bai'r hyn a ddigwyddodd i bensiynwyr ASW yn digwydd i chi. [ Torri ar draws.] Gallaf ddweud wrthych beth sydd gennych, Bethan, pe baech am imi wneud hynny ryw dro arall. [ Chwerthin.] I bob pwrpas, cyflogau gohiriedig yw pensiynau, ac fel y dywedodd Bethan Sayed, nid yw staff Allied Steel and Wire wedi cael gwerth llawn eu pensiynau. Mae'r arian wedi'i ddwyn oddi arnynt. Yn anochel mae hyn yn mynd i olygu caledi ariannol nad oeddent yn ei ddisgwyl i rai unigolion. Roeddent yn gwybod faint y byddent yn ei gael - . Ac a gaf fi helpu pobl - ? Po agosaf y dowch at oedran ymddeol, y mwyaf o ddiddordeb fydd gan bobl yn y swm o arian sydd ganddynt yn eu pensiynau. Mae pobl yn disgwyl i'w pensiynau fod yno fel oedd disgwyl iddynt fod, a heb eu hailraddnodi tuag i lawr. Mae hyn yn ymwneud â chyfiawnder a dangos arweiniad moesol, ac nid yw'n swm mawr o arian o ran y Llywodraeth, ac rwy'n credu ei bod yn anffodus nad ydynt yn barod i ddod o hyd i swm cymharol fach. Byddent yn darparu digonedd o arian ar ei gyfer pe bai'n rhyfel. Andrew Davies, rwy'n cytuno'n llwyr â chi. Mae'r diffyg wedi amddifadu pobl o'u cynlluniau ar gyfer y dyfodol. Effeithiwyd yn wael iawn ar ymddeoliad pob gweithiwr. Mae rhai wedi wynebu eu dyfodol yn cael ei wneud yn wahanol iawn i'r hyn a ddisgwylient. Mae'n anghyfiawnder, ac yn anghyfiawnder sydd angen ei gywiro. Mae angen inni ddangos ein bod yn eu cefnogi fel bod modd gwneud y peth iawn ar eu rhan. Mick Antoniw - unwaith eto, mae'n achos cyfiawn iawn. Credaf fod hwnnw'n sylw a wnaethpwyd gan bawb a siaradodd. Mae ganddynt hawl i gyfiawnder. Nid yw hyn yn ymwneud â gofyn am elusen. Nid yw'n ymwneud â gofyn am rywbeth mwy na'r hyn y gall pobl ei ddisgwyl: mae a wnelo â chyfiawnder, ac i mi, yma, os rhywbeth, mae'n frwydr dros bobl lai cefnog nad ydynt yn cael cyfiawnder. Mae anghysondebau yn y diwydiant pensiynau - credaf ei bod yn anffodus ein bod wedi symud i'r cyfnod wedi 1979 pan oedd trachwant yn dda a dadreoleiddio yn dda a phan ganiatawyd i gwmnïau optio allan, fel y dywedodd Mick Antoniw, ac i dynnu arian allan, nid darparu ar gyfer risg, a phan ddeuai'n bryd eu talu, câi bylchau yn y gronfa bensiwn eu talu gan y gweithwyr a dalodd i mewn i'r gronfa bensiwn honno. Credaf fod hynny'n hynod o drist i'r rhai dan sylw. A chofiwch, pe na baech yn eistedd yma yn awr, gallai eich cynnwys chi. Credaf fod safbwynt Mick Antoniw ynglŷn â'r comisiwn brenhinol ar bensiynau yn un da iawn. Nid wyf yn meddwl y cawn un, ond credaf ei fod yn rhywbeth y dylem ofyn amdano. Dai Lloyd - cynllun diogelwch pensiwn a gefnogir gan y Llywodraeth, y credai pawb ei fod yn mynd i fod yn ateb. Wel, rwy'n credu bod gweithwyr ASW wedi darganfod nad oedd, a chredaf fod hynny'n drist, oherwydd pan gyflwynir cynlluniau y disgwylir iddynt fynd i'r afael â rhywbeth lle y mae pobl yn gwybod bod yna anghysondebau, mae'n drist iawn eu bod yn methu. Ac mae gweithwyr ASW yn barhaus - . Ac rwy'n mynd i ddal ati i ddefnyddio'r gair hwn - tegwch. Ac rwy'n falch fod y Gweinidog wedi disgrifio ASW fel 'anghyfiawnder dybryd'. Maent wedi eu hamddifadu o'r hyn a ddisgwylient. Mae'r Llywodraeth yn cefnogi'r cyn-weithwyr ASW, ac rwy'n falch eu bod yn cael cefnogaeth gan Lywodraeth Cymru. Rwy'n falch iawn - ac rwy'n credu bod Dai Lloyd wedi gwneud y penderfyniad iawn i alw am bleidlais a enwir i bawb sy'n ei gefnogi, ond ni all fod yn iawn fod pobl yn heneiddio bellach, pobl sydd wedi ymddeol yn eu 60au ac sydd, ar ddiwedd eu 70au yn dal i boeni am y pensiwn, ac fel y gall Bethan Sayed ddweud wrthych hefyd gydag ymgyrch Visteon, bu llawer o bobl farw tra'n aros am gyfiawnder pensiwn. Credaf mai dyna un o'r pethau tristaf o bosibl yw fod pobl yn aros am gyfiawnder ac nad ydynt byth yn ei gael, ac efallai y bydd cyfran ohono'n gwneud ei ffordd at eu perthnasau agosaf, ond ni fyddant hwy byth yn cael y cyfiawnder y buont yn ymgyrchu drosto ac yn ymladd amdano. Credaf y dylem gefnogi gweithwyr ASW i'r carn. Dylem ddweud, 'Credwn eich bod yn haeddu cyfiawnder, a chredwn y dylai Llywodraeth San Steffan ddarparu'r arian', sydd, o safbwynt gwariant Llywodraeth, yn swm cymharol fach - un taflegryn yn llai efallai a gallem ei dalu. Rwy'n credu ein bod eisiau sefyllfa mewn gwirionedd lle y darperir yr arian a bod pobl yn cael yr hyn y maent yn ei haeddu. Felly, rwy'n gobeithio y bydd pawb yn yr ystafell hon yn ei gefnogi.