English: I would suggest to the Member for Llanelli that these are unique circumstances. I have asked the Presiding Officer to provide me with the examples that she cites in her letters to Assembly Members around the inability to provide the report. These are a unique set of circumstances that have led, sadly, and looked at, the death of an individual. It is vitally important that, as Assembly Members, we have the ability to scrutinise the actions of these inquiries and be satisfied that those inquiries have looked at and exhausted all avenues. And I draw the Member's attention to the motion today that does state specifically around 'for the use of the Assembly', i.e. Assembly Members. There are many provisions that could be put in place for this report to be made available for Assembly Members to read and digest this report, in a redacted version, that would protect the identity of individuals who have given evidence. Now, that's one argument that was put forward back in January. In February, when we had the motion here, which was endorsed by Assembly Members, the next argument that was deployed was by the leader of the house in her reply to myself - in a very short reply, I might add, to that debate. And this was her reply to me: 'This is about more than just this leaked report; this is about the integrity of future investigations and future leaked reports. 'Whereas here, there is the additional element of ongoing inquiries, there are further potential risks to the overall integrity of the process if information is put in the public domain on a piecemeal basis.' Well, yesterday, we had the Hamilton report come forward. I do welcome that report becoming publicly available for Members to read and to see, but I have to say, if that's the second argument that the Government have deployed to prevent the publication of this report, then you've shot it below the waterline, obviously, by making available the Hamilton inquiry report. I welcome the outcome of that inquiry, which gives the First Minister a clean bill of health when it comes to the specific focus of that inquiry about misleading the Assembly. I would draw Members' attention to the fact that this isn't a witch hunt against the First Minister, as point 48 in that report clearly identifies, when it says no allegation - no allegation - was levelled against the First Minister about bullying or intimidatory actions on his part. And so, this isn't about a witch hunt against the First Minister, but I would also just draw Members' attention to the fact that if that was the second argument that was deployed, that releasing information into the public domain would be a piecemeal approach to all this and it would jeopardise future inquiries, why was Hamilton treated differently? The third point I would suggest is obviously the point that was deployed yesterday in relation to the legal arguments the Government put forward in relation to the exercise of the Government of Wales provision. And that, again, can be put to one side by the legal advice that has been provided to Members in the Assembly here. There is a difference of opinion here. The Government believe that government would seize up if, obviously, this motion passed this afternoon, and actually they wouldn't be able to go about their business. The legal advice that has been given - and I'll read verbatim here - 'Parliament did not give the Assembly completely open-ended power. It provided a safeguard where the Assembly votes in favour of a motion. Under section 37 (8), a person is not obliged to produce any document which he or she would be entitled to refuse to produce for the purposes of proceedings in a court in England and Wales. There are numerous circumstances where this might apply. For instance, legal advice to the Welsh Government would not have to be disclosed in accordance with this provision, so would commercial confidentiality'. I could go on. And I could go on to say, as I've pointed out to the Member for Llanelli, there are circumstances such as a reading room environment that could be made available to Assembly Members to meet the provisions and the requirements of the motion before us. Because the motion before us asks to produce the report for the purposes of the Assembly. So, to deploy the legal argument that Government would seize up if this motion went forward today is nonsense - utter nonsense. Now, the Government whip might deliver the vote today to stop this motion going forward. I hope it doesn't. I hope individual Members will vote on the strength of the argument that is before them, but, if the whip delivers that vote, it won't deliver what is morally right here, and that is the ability to have this report sitting alongside the other reports that have been commissioned so that we can satisfy ourselves that each and every avenue of investigation has been exhausted to make sure we get to the bottom of the argument and the discussion and the debate, and ultimately make some sense of the tragedy that led to the death of a member of this institution. I urge Members to support the motion that is before them today, which seeks that transparency here, in the home of Welsh democracy.
Welsh: Buaswn yn awgrymu wrth yr Aelod dros Lanelli fod y rhain yn amgylchiadau unigryw. Gofynnais i'r Llywydd roi enghreifftiau i mi y mae'n cyfeirio atynt yn ei llythyrau at Aelodau Cynulliad ynghylch yr anallu i ddarparu'r adroddiad. Mae'r rhain yn set unigryw o amgylchiadau a arweiniodd, yn anffodus, at edrych ar farwolaeth unigolyn. Mae'n hanfodol bwysig, fel Aelodau Cynulliad, ein bod yn gallu craffu ar weithredoedd yr ymchwiliadau hyn a bod yn fodlon fod yr ymchwiliadau wedi edrych ar ac wedi dilyn pob trywydd posibl. A thynnaf sylw'r Aelodau at y cynnig heddiw sy'n datgan yn benodol 'at ddibenion y Cynulliad', h.y. Aelodau'r Cynulliad. Ceir llawer o ddarpariaethau y gellid eu rhoi ar waith er mwyn i'r adroddiad hwn fod ar gael i Aelodau'r Cynulliad ddarllen ac ystyried yr adroddiad hwn, mewn fersiwn wedi ei golygu, a fyddai'n diogelu cyfrinachedd unigolion sydd wedi rhoi tystiolaeth. Nawr, dyna un ddadl a gyflwynwyd yn ôl ym mis Ionawr. Ym mis Chwefror, pan gawsom y cynnig yma a gymeradwywyd gan Aelodau'r Cynulliad, y ddadl nesaf a ddefnyddiwyd gan arweinydd y tŷ yn ei hateb i mi - mewn ateb byr iawn, hoffwn ychwanegu, i'r ddadl honno. A dyma oedd ei hymateb i mi: Mae hyn yn ymwneud â mwy na'r adroddiad hwn a ddatgelwyd heb ganiatâd; mae'n ymwneud â chywirdeb ymchwiliadau yn y dyfodol ac adroddiadau a ddatgelir heb ganiatâd yn y dyfodol. Ond yma, ceir yr elfen ychwanegol o ymchwiliadau parhaus, ceir risgiau posibl pellach i gywirdeb cyffredinol y broses os caiff gwybodaeth ei gwneud yn gyhoeddus ar sail dameidiog. Wel, ddoe, daeth adroddiad Hamilton gerbron. Rwy'n croesawu'r ffaith fod yr adroddiad hwnnw wedi ei ryddhau'n gyhoeddus i Aelodau ei ddarllen a'i weld, ond rhaid imi ddweud, os mai dyna'r ail ddadl i'r Llywodraeth ei defnyddio i atal yr adroddiad hwn rhag cael ei gyhoeddi, yna rydych wedi gwneud niwed mawr iddo, yn amlwg, drwy sicrhau bod adroddiad ymchwiliad Hamilton ar gael. Rwy'n croesawu canlyniad yr ymchwiliad hwnnw, sy'n dweud nad yw'r Prif Weinidog wedi gwneud dim o'i le o ran ffocws penodol yr ymchwiliad hwnnw ar gamarwain y Cynulliad. Hoffwn dynnu sylw'r Aelodau at y ffaith nad erlid y Prif Weinidog yw hyn, fel y mae pwynt 48 yr adroddiad hwnnw'n nodi'n glir, pan ddywed na chafodd unrhyw honiad - ni chafodd unrhyw honiad - ei wneud yn erbyn y Prif Weinidog am fwlio neu weithredu difrïol ar ei ran. Ac felly, nid yw hyn yn ymwneud ag erlid y Prif Weinidog, ond hefyd hoffwn dynnu sylw'r Aelodau at y ffaith, os mai honno oedd yr ail ddadl a wnaed, sef y byddai rhyddhau gwybodaeth i'r cyhoedd yn ddull tameidiog o ymdrin â hyn ac y byddai'n peryglu ymchwiliadau yn y dyfodol, pam y cafodd Hamilton ei drin yn wahanol? Rwy'n awgrymu mai'r trydydd pwynt, yn amlwg, yw'r pwynt a wnaed ddoe mewn perthynas â'r dadleuon cyfreithiol a wnaeth y Llywodraeth ynghylch arfer darpariaeth Llywodraeth Cymru. A gellir rhoi hynny, unwaith eto, i un ochr yn sgil y cyngor cyfreithiol a roddwyd i'r Aelodau yma yn y Cynulliad. Ceir gwahaniaeth barn yma. Mae'r Llywodraeth yn credu y byddai llywodraeth yn dod i stop pe bai'r cynnig hwn, yn amlwg, yn pasio y prynhawn yma, ac na fyddent yn gallu gwneud eu gwaith mewn gwirionedd. Y cyngor cyfreithiol a roddwyd - ac fe ddarllenaf hyn air am air - yw na roddodd y Senedd bŵer cwbl benagored i'r Cynulliad. Rhoddodd fesur diogelu lle mae'r Cynulliad yn pleidleisio o blaid cynnig. O dan adran 37 (8), nid yw person yn gorfod dangos unrhyw ddogfen y byddai hawl ganddo ef neu ganddi hi i wrthod ei dangos at ddibenion achosion llys yng Nghymru a Lloegr. Ceir nifer o amgylchiadau lle y gallai hyn fod yn berthnasol. Er enghraifft, ni fyddai'n rhaid datgelu cyngor cyfreithiol i Lywodraeth Cymru yn unol â'r ddarpariaeth hon, na chyfrinachedd masnachol chwaith. Gallwn fynd ymlaen. A gallwn fynd ymlaen i ddweud, fel rwyf wedi nodi wrth yr Aelod dros Lanelli, y ceir amgylchiadau megis amgylchedd ystafell ddarllen y gellid ei sicrhau ar gyfer Aelodau'r Cynulliad i ateb darpariaethau a gofynion y cynnig ger ein bron. Oherwydd mae'r cynnig ger ein bron yn gofyn am gynhyrchu'r adroddiad at ddibenion y Cynulliad. Felly, mae defnyddio'r ddadl gyfreithiol y byddai'r Llywodraeth yn dod i stop pe bai'r cynnig hwn yn cael ei dderbyn heddiw yn nonsens - yn nonsens pur. Nawr, efallai y bydd chwip y Llywodraeth yn sicrhau'r bleidlais heddiw i atal y cynnig hwn rhag cael ei dderbyn. Gobeithio na wnaiff. Gobeithio y bydd Aelodau unigol yn pleidleisio ar gryfder y ddadl sydd ger eu bron, ond os yw'r chwip yn sicrhau'r bleidlais honno, ni fydd yn cyflawni'r hyn sy'n foesol gywir yma, sef y gallu i gael yr adroddiad hwn ochr yn ochr ag adroddiadau eraill a gomisiynwyd fel y gallwn fod yn fodlon fod pob llwybr ymchwilio wedi'i ddihysbyddu er mwyn gwneud yn siŵr y gallwn fynd at wraidd y ddadl a'r drafodaeth, a gwneud rhywfaint o synnwyr yn y pen draw o'r drychineb a arweiniodd at farwolaeth aelod o'r sefydliad hwn. Rwy'n annog yr Aelodau i gefnogi'r cynnig sydd gerbron heddiw, sy'n ceisio'r tryloywder hwnnw yma yng nghartref democratiaeth Cymru.