English: Thank you, Chair, and thanks to Plaid for bringing today's debate. We often hear speakers say at this point, 'On this important subject', well, today's debate, if we look at all the amendments, really is on an important subject, which is: should we continue to have an Assembly or Senedd at all? And the simple answer to that is, 'Yes, we should continue to have it, if it has the democratic backing of the Welsh people.' If it doesn't have that backing, then we shouldn't have it. Democratic consent is everything. But we do need to hold referendums roughly every 15 to 20 years, so that we can ascertain what the public actually think, because, sorry, Darren Millar, there is no such thing as the settled will. Opinion changes over time, so we do need to measure it. I would say that the amendment I'm moving today, for the Abolish the Welsh Assembly Party, is simply following the logic of Plaid's motion. Plaid assert in their motion that, I quote: 'the people of Wales have welcomed the ability for Wales to act independently'. Well, who are these 'people of Wales'? Does everyone in Wales think the same? Plenty of people in Wales think that coronavirus has exposed the massive confusions that arise when you have four different Governments operating within the United Kingdom. Plenty of people have been discovering that they don't really want four Governments; they don't want four different NHSs across the UK, they want one NHS. They don't want four different sets of Government rules or four different furlough schemes; they want one set of rules and one furlough scheme, and so on. An awful lot of the people of Wales now see devolution for what it is, a costly inconvenience, and those people of Wales should be entitled to have their say. Plaid's motion further states that independence would give Wales greater agility and resilience. Well, an independent Wales would certainly need agility since we would be running a massive budget deficit, and without the UK Government, who would we get to subsidise us? Who would Mark Drakeford and his Cabinet colleagues take their begging bowl to if we were not part of the UK? If Wales is going to prosper as an independent nation, as Plaid seem to think, then can they tell us precisely where the annual £15 billion English subsidy to Wales is going to come from once we are no longer part of the UK? Because the people of Wales might just want to know that. Can we turn our attention to the two referendums that have addressed the issue of whether or not we should have a devolved body here in Wales? In 1979, Wales voted against devolution; in 1997, Wales changed its mind and voted to have an Assembly. That was fair enough; 18 years had passed in between and there was a strong case for asking the Welsh public again. We are now 23 years on from the 1997 referendum, which created this place. In addition, we have had 21 years of devolution. The public can now make an informed choice, based on the actual experience of devolution, as to whether or not they want it to continue. That is all we are asking, that the people are consulted. In my party, of course, we want to abolish this place since we think it is a waste of public money, but we do not say that our ideas are more important than what the Welsh people want. Of course they're not; we simply say that we should have a referendum and then do precisely what the Welsh people tell us to do. After 23 years, it is high time that the people of Wales are allowed to have their say once again. That is why I'm moving this amendment today. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Welsh: Diolch, Cadeirydd, a diolch i Plaid am gyflwyno dadl heddiw. Clywn siaradwyr yn aml yn dweud ar yr adeg hon, 'Ar y pwnc pwysig hwn', wel, mae dadl heddiw, os edrychwn ni ar yr holl welliannau, yn wirioneddol ar bwnc pwysig, sef: a ddylem ni barhau i fod â Chynulliad neu Senedd o gwbl? A'r ateb syml i hynny yw, 'Dylem, fe ddylem ni barhau i fod ag ef, os oes ganddo gefnogaeth ddemocrataidd pobl Cymru.' Os nad oes ganddo'r gefnogaeth honno, yna ni ddylem ni fod ag ef. Cydsyniad democrataidd yw popeth. Ond mae angen i ni gynnal refferenda fwy neu lai bob 15 i 20 mlynedd, fel y gallwn ni ganfod yr hyn y mae'r cyhoedd yn ei gredu mewn gwirionedd, oherwydd, mae'n ddrwg gen i, Darren Millar, nid oes y fath beth â dymuniad diysgog. Mae barn yn newid dros amser, felly mae angen i ni ei fesur. Byddwn i'n dweud bod y gwelliant yr wyf i'n ei gynnig heddiw, ar gyfer Plaid Diddymu Cynulliad Cymru, yn dilyn rhesymeg cynnig Plaid Cymru. Dywed Plaid yn eu cynnig, ac rwy'n dyfynnu: 'mae pobl Cymru wedi croesawu'r gallu i Gymru weithredu'n annibynnol'. Wel, pwy yw'r 'bobl Cymru' hyn? A yw pawb yng Nghymru â'r un meddylfryd? Mae llawer o bobl yng Nghymru yn credu bod coronafeirws wedi amlygu'r dryswch enfawr sy'n codi pan fo gennych chi bedair gwahanol Lywodraeth yn gweithredu yn y Deyrnas Unedig. Mae llawer o bobl wedi canfod nad ydyn nhw wir eisiau pedair Llywodraeth; dydyn nhw ddim eisiau pedwar GIG gwahanol ledled y DU, maen nhw eisiau un GIG. Dydyn nhw ddim eisiau pedair cyfres wahanol o reolau Llywodraeth na phedwar cynllun gwahanol ar gyfer ffyrlo; maen nhw eisiau un gyfres o reolau ac un cynllun ffyrlo, ac yn y blaen. Mae llawer iawn o bobl yng Nghymru bellach yn gweld datganoli am yr hyn yr ydyw, sef anghyfleustra costus, a dylai'r bobl hynny yng Nghymru fod â'r hawl i ddweud eu dweud. Mae cynnig Plaid Cymru yn datgan ymhellach y byddai annibyniaeth yn rhoi mwy o ystwythder a chadernid i Gymru. Wel, yn sicr, byddai angen ystwythder ar Gymru annibynnol gan y byddai gennym ni ddiffyg enfawr yn y gyllideb, a heb Lywodraeth y DU, pwy fyddai gennym ni i roi cymhorthdal i ni? At bwy fyddai Mark Drakeford a'i gyd-Aelodau yn y Cabinet yn mynd i ymofyn cardod pe na byddem ni'n rhan o'r DU? Os yw Cymru eisiau ffynnu yn genedl annibynnol, fel y mae'n ymddangos bod Plaid yn ei gredu, yna a allan nhw ddweud wrthym ni o ble yn union y mae'r cymhorthdal o £15 biliwn bob blwyddyn o Loegr i Gymru yn mynd i ddod pan na fyddwn ni bellach yn rhan o'r DU? Oherwydd efallai y byddai pobl Cymru o bosib eisiau gwybod hynny. A gawn ni droi ein sylw at y ddau refferendwm sydd wedi mynd i'r afael â'r mater o ba un a ddylem ni fod â chorff datganoledig yma yng Nghymru ai peidio? Yn 1979, pleidleisiodd Cymru yn erbyn datganoli; yn 1997, newidiodd Cymru ei meddwl a phleidleisio i gael Cynulliad. Roedd hynny'n ddigon teg; roedd 18 mlynedd wedi mynd heibio yn y cyfamser ac roedd achos cryf dros ofyn i gyhoedd Cymru unwaith eto. Erbyn hyn, mae 23 mlynedd wedi mynd heibio ers refferendwm 1997, a greodd y lle hwn. Yn ogystal â hynny, rydym ni wedi cael 21 mlynedd o ddatganoli. Gall y cyhoedd erbyn hyn wneud dewis gwybodus, yn seiliedig ar brofiad gwirioneddol datganoli, o ran pa un a ydyn nhw eisiau iddo barhau ai peidio. Dyna'r unig beth yr ydym ni'n ei ofyn, sef yr ymgynghorir â'r bobl. Yn fy mhlaid i, wrth gwrs, rydym ni eisiau diddymu'r lle hwn gan ein bod ni'n credu ei fod yn wastraff arian cyhoeddus, ond nid ydym ni'n dweud bod ein syniadau ni'n bwysicach na'r hyn y mae pobl Cymru ei eisiau. Wrth gwrs, nad ydyn nhw; yr hyn yr ydym ni'n ei ddweud yn syml yw y dylem ni gael refferendwm ac yna gwneud yn union yr hyn y mae pobl Cymru yn ei ddweud wrthym ni am ei wneud. Ar ôl 23 mlynedd, mae'n hen bryd i bobl Cymru gael dweud eu dweud unwaith eto. Dyna pam yr wyf i'n cynnig y gwelliant hwn heddiw. Diolch yn fawr iawn.