English: Yes. Normal people, real people. Let's say 'real people' then. [ Interruption.] Well, I don't recognise many faces around here of people who've followed, in their own private lives, a hair-shirt austerity programme. We all enjoy very comfortable - [ Interruption.] Well, we all enjoy extremely comfortable lives, earning very large sums of money compared with the average and I think it is patronising and condescending to describe the desires of ordinary people as 'consumerism'. Global warming is another controversial issue - [ Interruption.] Yes, I am going to mention global warming, because the reaction of the education Secretary actually exemplifies everything that I'm talking about this afternoon. Because I hold views on global warming that are in a very small minority in this Assembly, but the way in which the education Secretary reacts when I raise issues of this kind is that I'm not entitled to hold these views, because there is no intellectual foundation for them at all, whereas, in fact, there is a very respectable debate going on amongst meteorologists and climatologists on these issues. Are organisations like the Global Warming Policy Foundation used in providing course materials on these issues in the Welsh baccalaureate? I very much doubt it. And yet, if we look at climate history, we've had cycles when global climate was warming and others when it was cooling. Roman times were very hot and medieval times were very hot, and in between we had little ice ages - we had one at the end of the seventeenth century. So, if we look at observational facts, then they don't actually bear out the climatic models that are based upon computer predictions. These are controversies, and you may disagree with them, but we should certainly teach the other side of the case if we're to have a balanced debate on the topic, because we're imposing massive costs upon people by artificially increasing the price of energy. It may be a good thing that we're doing these things, I don't know. We don't have the means of being able to decide, because we don't understand the facts. Climatology itself is a highly complex matter. There isn't the historical data available anyway to compare one period with another, so we can't actually draw any conclusions from the very small changes that have taken place in temperature globally in recent years, because we can't compare with the previous generations in an arithmetic way. And we don't know, anyway, how far current trends will last. So, there are limitations to the information upon which theories are based, and I don't believe that that is fully reflected either in the teaching that is undertaken in schools. All I'm saying in the course of this debate is that we should recognise that in all of these controversial topics, there is another side of the case, and that should be put so that children, yes, should be able to argue and make up their minds. We shouldn't treat this as a kind of article of religion, where there is no argument on the other side of the case - [ Interruption.] Lee Waters says, 'Respect science'. Well, the science that I'm talking about is respected by Professor Christopher Essex, professor of applied mathematics at the University of Western Ontario, who is the chairman of the Global Warming Policy Foundation, by Sir Ian Byatt, director general of water services for England and Wales, Professor Freeman Dyson, fellow of the Royal Society, world renowned theoretical physicist and professor emeritus at the Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton University, by Professor William Happer, professor of physics at Princeton, Professor David Henderson, head of the economics and statistics department at the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, and many, many others in the list of those who support the attitude of scepticism that is the essence of the Global Warming Policy Foundation's work. It's not that they are pursuing a particular agenda to impose a view, because there is a variety of views, even within the Global Warming Policy Foundation - [ Interruption. ]
Welsh: Ie. Pobl normal, pobl go iawn. Gadewch inni ddweud 'pobl go iawn' felly. [ Torri ar draws.] Wel, nid wyf yn adnabod llawer o wynebau yma o bobl sydd wedi dilyn rhaglen o gyni crys brethyn rhawn yn eu bywydau preifat. Rydym i gyd yn mwynhau bywydau cyfforddus iawn - [ Torri ar draws.] Wel, rydym i gyd yn mwynhau bywyd hynod o gyfforddus, yn ennill arian mawr iawn o gymharu â'r cyfartaledd a chredaf ei bod yn nawddoglyd inni ddisgrifio dymuniadau pobl gyffredin fel 'prynwriaeth'. Mater dadleuol arall yw cynhesu byd-eang - [ Torri ar draws.] Ydw, rwy'n mynd i sôn am gynhesu byd-eang, oherwydd mae adwaith yr Ysgrifennydd addysg yn enghraifft o bopeth rwy'n sôn amdano y prynhawn yma. Oherwydd mae gennyf safbwyntiau ar gynhesu byd-eang sydd mewn lleiafrif bach iawn yn y Cynulliad hwn, ond mae'r ffordd y mae'r Ysgrifennydd addysg yn ymateb pan fyddaf yn crybwyll materion o'r fath yn awgrymu nad oes gennyf hawl i arddel y safbwyntiau hyn, am nad oes unrhyw sail ddeallusol drostynt o gwbl, er bod trafodaeth barchus iawn ar y gweill mewn gwirionedd ymhlith meteorolegwyr a hinsoddegwyr ar y materion hyn. A yw sefydliadau fel y Sefydliad Polisi Cynhesu Byd-eang yn cael eu defnyddio i ddarparu deunyddiau cwrs ar y materion hyn ym magloriaeth Cymru? Rwy'n amau hynny'n fawr iawn. Ac eto, os edrychwn ar hanes yr hinsawdd, rydym wedi cael cylchoedd pan oedd hinsawdd y byd yn cynhesu a chylchoedd eraill pan oedd yn oeri. Roedd cyfnod y Rhufeiniaid yn boeth iawn a'r cyfnod canoloesol yn boeth iawn, a rhyngddynt cawsom oesau iâ byr - cawsom un ar ddiwedd yr ail ganrif ar bymtheg. Felly, os edrychwn ar y ffeithiau y gellir arsylwi arnynt, nid ydynt yn ategu'r modelau hinsawdd sy'n seiliedig ar ragfynegiadau cyfrifiadurol. Mae'r rhain yn ddadleuol, ac efallai y byddwch yn anghytuno â hwy, ond dylem yn sicr ddysgu'r ochr arall i'r ddadl os ydym am gael dadl gytbwys ar y pwnc, oherwydd rydych yn gosod costau enfawr ar bobl drwy godi pris ynni yn artiffisial. Gall fod yn beth da ein bod yn gwneud y pethau hyn, nid wyf yn gwybod. Nid oes gennym ffordd o allu penderfynu am nad ydym yn deall y ffeithiau. Mae hinsoddeg ei hun yn fater cymhleth iawn. Nid oes data hanesyddol ar gael beth bynnag i gymharu un cyfnod ag un arall, felly mewn gwirionedd ni allwn ddod i unrhyw gasgliadau o'r newidiadau bach iawn sydd wedi digwydd yn y tymheredd byd-eang yn y blynyddoedd diwethaf am na allwn gymharu â chenedlaethau blaenorol mewn modd rhifyddol. Ac nid ydym yn gwybod, beth bynnag, pa mor bell y bydd tueddiadau presennol yn parhau. Felly, mae yna gyfyngiadau ar y wybodaeth y seilir damcaniaethau arnynt, ac nid wyf yn credu bod hyn yn cael ei adlewyrchu'n llawn yn yr addysgu a gyflawnir mewn ysgolion ychwaith. Y cyfan rwy'n ei ddweud yn ystod y ddadl hon yw y dylem gydnabod ym mhob un o'r pynciau dadleuol hyn, fod yna ochr arall i bethau, a dylid cyflwyno hynny i blant er mwyn iddynt allu dadlau a phenderfynu drostynt eu hunain. Ni ddylem drin hyn fel rhyw fath o destun crefyddol, lle na cheir dadl ar yr ochr arall - [ Torri ar draws.] Mae Lee Waters yn dweud, 'Parchwch wyddoniaeth'. Wel, mae'r wyddoniaeth rwy'n sôn amdani yn cael ei pharchu gan yr Athro Christopher Essex, athro mathemateg gymhwysol ym Mhrifysgol Gorllewin Ontario, sef Cadeirydd y Sefydliad Polisi Cynhesu Byd-eang, gan Syr Ian Byatt, cyfarwyddwr cyffredinol gwasanaethau dŵr Cymru a Lloegr, yr Athro Freeman Dyson, cymrawd yn y Gymdeithas Frenhinol, ffisegydd damcaniaethol byd-enwog ac athro emeritws yn y Sefydliad Astudiaethau Uwch ym Mhrifysgol Princeton, gan yr Athro William Happer, athro ffiseg ym Mhrifysgol Princeton, yr Athro David Henderson, pennaeth yr adran economeg ac ystadegau yn y Sefydliad ar gyfer Cydweithrediad a Datblygiad Economaidd, a llawer iawn o rai eraill yn y rhestr o'r rhai sy'n cefnogi'r ymagwedd sgeptigaidd sy'n ganolog i waith y Sefydliad Polisi Cynhesu Byd-eang. Nid yw'n ymwneud â'u bod yn dilyn agenda benodol i orfodi barn, gan fod amrywiaeth o safbwyntiau, hyd yn oed o fewn y Sefydliad Polisi Cynhesu Byd-eang - [ Torri ar draws. ]