English: I'm delighted to speak in support of the recommendations that came out of this committee, and to welcome as well the way in which John stewarded this committee. We heard an immense amount of evidence - those people who came in front of us, the visits that we made as well, where we spoke with prison governors, prison staff, front-line staff and also with people who are incarcerated themselves. I want to thank all those people who gave evidence, but particularly the way in which Members dealt with hearing that evidence as well. There were differences of opinion on this committee - they've come out in the report in terms of the main recommendation that we've come to - but we have done it in, I think, a temperate way. We've recognised those differences. I would simply say to Mark: I'm not a so-called representative. I am a representative in this institution, as everybody else is. Don't denigrate the role of myself or others by calling me a so-called representative. However, if I can turn to the substance there, the report is balanced, because it does actually look at the arguments for and against as well. It makes clear that, as the European Convention on Human Rights has said, voting rights are not absolute rights - universal rights. That is exactly why this committee was looking at it. To what extent do we reflect public opinion? To what extent do we want to show leadership as well? But there is clearly, also, by international evidence, but also the pressure that's been put on the UK Government over successive years and years, a mood that we should actually look at this and see how much further we could go, very much because of the arguments that Leanne and the report put, which are that, whilst it might not be a universal, absolute right, we should be looking to individuals who are in prison not as - . Some will be lifelong prisoners, and some, including women we met, who said, 'Well, I've got children outside of this prison. I'm in here for a very short time. My children are in school. My children will be receiving care while I'm away from here. I have no say whatsoever in - '. Yet, still, those people who are in prison - all of them - will pay tax on earnings, tax on savings et cetera whilst they're in. So, it's a curious anomaly. The report is balanced. It recognises - Mark, you're absolutely right - that the public does not support voting rights for prisoners. It does also reflect that the public mood is changing, and has changed on this as well. Sometimes, there's a need for us, as elected representatives, to actually signal a course - a direction of travel. I won't embarrass the Minister, but when she came in front of us in committee, I said, 'Minister, what is your mood toward all of this?', because I was slightly sceptical. I thought the Government might park this and kick this into the long grass: 'What an interesting committee report this is. We'll come back to this in five years or 10 years' time.' And I said to her, 'Do you see yourself, possibly, being the Roy Jenkins here of the Welsh Government Ministers on this issue?' - not that you should go above and beyond, and not that you should try and be cavalier in the way - . But look at the evidence and decide what is the right, progressive policy that balances those interests of people like the victims' commissioner, who came in front of us and spoke quite passionately about her concerns about the victims' side, but also very much that issue of rehabilitation - the fact that these people remain citizens, because they are paying tax, they have children outside in schools et cetera. So, I think it's quite balanced. Now, the compromise we came to is a compromise. There were different views on the committee. There were those of us who supported, for simplicity but also on basic principles, the actual universal extension of that suffrage within there. Many of the witnesses who appeared in front of us actually supported that as well, for the very same reasons. But we recognised that, on the committee, because there were such differences of opinion, we should look at something that was practical, that was simple, that was deliverable and that wasn't overcomplex. We looked at many different possibilities within that, and the one we've settled on, of sentences of four years or less, gives that, I think, simplicity and clarity, and it gives that clear message that Wales, even if the UK Government won't move, could actually move forward and show a clear signal that we believe in the principles of rehabilitation - in the principles that these people, many of whom will be passing through prison, will be back living with us, alongside us and reintegrated in society, and bringing their children up and working in careers and so on and so forth. I think that's an important principle. So, I welcome this and I welcome the response of the Government as well. My only query would be to echo what the Chair has said: what are we talking here about timescales of taking this forward? I think there is an opportunity here for the Welsh Government to show some leadership on this and, perhaps, who knows, the UK Government will follow suit in due course.
Welsh: Mae'n bleser gennyf siarad o blaid yr argymhellion a ddeilliodd o'r pwyllgor hwn, a chroesawu hefyd y modd y bu i John stiwardio'r pwyllgor hwn. Clywsom lawer iawn o dystiolaeth - y bobl a ddaeth ger ein bron, yr ymweliadau a wnaethom hefyd, lle buom yn siarad â llywodraethwyr carchardai, staff carchardai, staff rheng flaen a hefyd â phobl sydd wedi'u carcharu eu hunain. Rwyf am ddiolch i'r holl bobl a roddodd dystiolaeth, ond yn enwedig am y modd yr ymdriniodd yr Aelodau â chlywed y dystiolaeth honno hefyd. Roedd gwahaniaeth barn ar y pwyllgor hwn - gwelwyd hynny yn yr adroddiad, o ran ein prif argymhelliad - ond fe'i gwnaethom mewn ffordd gymesur, rwy'n credu. Rydym wedi cydnabod y gwahaniaethau hynny. Hoffwn ddweud wrth Mark: nid cynrychiolydd honedig ydw i. Rwy'n gynrychiolydd yn y sefydliad hwn, fel y mae pawb arall. Peidiwch â difrïo fy rôl i ac eraill drwy fy ngalw'n gynrychiolydd honedig. Fodd bynnag, os caf droi at y sylwedd, mae'r adroddiad yn gytbwys, oherwydd mae'n edrych ar y dadleuon o blaid ac yn erbyn hefyd. Mae'n egluro, fel y mae'r Confensiwn Ewropeaidd ar Hawliau Dynol wedi'i ddweud, nad yw hawliau pleidleisio yn hawliau absoliwt - hawliau cyffredinol. Dyna'n union pam yr edrychai'r pwyllgor hwn arno. I ba raddau yr adlewyrchwn farn y cyhoedd? I ba raddau y dymunwn ddangos arweinyddiaeth hefyd? Ond ceir teimlad amlwg hefyd, drwy dystiolaeth ryngwladol, ond hefyd y pwysau sydd wedi'i roi ar Lywodraeth y DU dros lawer o flynyddoedd, y dylem edrych ar hyn a gweld faint ymhellach y gallem fynd, yn enwedig oherwydd y dadleuon y nododd Leanne a'r adroddiad, sef, er efallai nad yw'n hawl gyffredinol i bawb, yn hawl absoliwt, dylem fod yn edrych ar unigolion sydd yn y carchar nid fel - . Bydd rhai'n garcharorion gydol oes, a rhai, gan gynnwys menywod y cyfarfuom â hwy, a ddywedodd, 'Wel, mae gennyf blant y tu allan i'r carchar. Rwyf yma am gyfnod byr iawn. Mae fy mhlant yn yr ysgol. Bydd fy mhlant yn derbyn gofal tra byddaf i ffwrdd oddi yma. Nid oes gennyf unrhyw lais o gwbl yn - '. Ac eto, bydd y bobl sydd yn y carchar - bob un ohonynt - yn talu treth ar enillion, treth ar gynilion ac ati tra byddant yno. Felly, mae'n anomaledd rhyfedd. Mae'r adroddiad yn gytbwys. Mae'n cydnabod - Mark, rydych chi'n llygad eich lle - nad yw'r cyhoedd yn cefnogi hawliau pleidleisio i garcharorion. Mae hefyd yn adlewyrchu'r ffaith bod teimladau'r cyhoedd yn newid, a'u bod wedi newid ar hyn hefyd. Weithiau, mae angen i ni, fel cynrychiolwyr etholedig, ddynodi cyfeiriad teithio. Nid wyf am greu embaras i'r Gweinidog, ond pan ddaeth hi ger ein bron yn y pwyllgor, dywedais, 'Weinidog, beth yw eich agwedd tuag at hyn i gyd?', oherwydd roeddwn i ychydig yn amheus. Roeddwn yn meddwl y gallai'r Llywodraeth adael hyn am y tro a'i roi o'r neilltu: 'Dyma adroddiad pwyllgor diddorol. Down yn ôl at hyn ymhen pum mlynedd neu 10 mlynedd.' A dywedais wrthi, 'A ydych chi'n gweld eich hun, o bosibl, yn bod yn Roy Jenkins Gweinidogion Llywodraeth Cymru ar y mater hwn?' - nid eich bod yn mynd uwchben a thu hwnt, ac nid y dylech geisio bod yn ddi-hid yn y ffordd - . Ond edrychwch ar y dystiolaeth a phenderfynwch beth yw'r polisi cywir a blaengar sy'n cydbwyso buddiannau pobl fel y comisiynydd dioddefwyr, a ddaeth ger ein bron a siarad yn angerddol am ei phryderon ynghylch ochr y dioddefwyr, ond hefyd ar fater adsefydlu - y ffaith bod y bobl hyn yn dal i fod yn ddinasyddion, am eu bod yn talu treth, mae ganddynt blant y tu allan mewn ysgolion ac ati. Felly, rwy'n credu ei fod yn eithaf cytbwys. Nawr, cyfaddawd oedd yr hyn a gafwyd gennym. Roedd gwahanol safbwyntiau yn y pwyllgor. Roedd rhai ohonom yn cefnogi, er symlrwydd ond hefyd o ran egwyddorion sylfaenol, ymestyn y bleidlais yn gyffredinol. Roedd llawer o'r tystion a ymddangosodd ger ein bron yn cefnogi hynny hefyd, am yr un rhesymau'n union. Ond roeddem yn cydnabod, ar y pwyllgor, am fod cymaint o wahaniaeth barn, y dylem edrych ar rywbeth a oedd yn ymarferol, a oedd yn syml, y gellid ei gyflawni ac nad oedd yn rhy gymhleth. Edrychasom ar lawer o wahanol bosibiliadau o fewn hynny, ac mae'r un a ddewiswyd gennym, sef dedfrydau pedair blynedd neu lai, yn rhoi'r symlrwydd a'r eglurder hwnnw rwy'n credu, ac mae'n rhoi'r neges glir y gallai Cymru, hyd yn oed os na fydd Llywodraeth y DU yn symud, fynd ati mewn gwirionedd i symud ymlaen a dangos arwydd clir ein bod yn credu yn egwyddorion adsefydlu - yn yr egwyddorion y bydd y bobl hyn, y bydd llawer ohonynt yn mynd drwy'r carchar, yn ôl yn byw gyda ni, ochr yn ochr â ni ac wedi'u hailintegreiddio yn y gymdeithas, ac yn magu eu plant a gweithio mewn gyrfaoedd ac yn y blaen ac yn y blaen. Rwy'n credu bod honno'n egwyddor bwysig. Felly, rwy'n croesawu hyn ac rwy'n croesawu ymateb y Llywodraeth hefyd. Fy unig ymholiad fyddai adleisio'r hyn a ddywedodd y Cadeirydd: am beth y siaradwn yma, o ran amserlenni ar gyfer bwrw ymlaen â hyn? Rwy'n credu bod cyfle yma i Lywodraeth Cymru ddangos rhywfaint o arweiniad yn hyn o beth ac efallai, pwy a ŵyr, y bydd Llywodraeth y DU yn dilyn ei hesiampl maes o law.