English: Thank you, temporary Presiding Officer. Well, I'm very surprised to hear Darren Millar agreeing with what Carwyn Jones said to me the last time we debated these matters, that devolution was the settled will of the Welsh people. Because, of course, if the 1975 referendum on membership of the EU had been the settled will of the British people, Darren Millar would not have been campaigning to have another referendum in 2016. And the truth of the matter is that, in a democracy, nothing can ever be the settled will of a people, because one generation can't be bound by its predecessors, and it would be quite wrong to attempt to constrain it. So, to that extent, I'm in favour of Plaid Cymru's approach that, if there are a large number of people in Wales who want to vote for independence, why should they not be allowed to express that in the democratic way, by having a referendum upon it? So, I've no objection to that happening. I've no doubt that it would be rejected by the overwhelming majority of the people. But what we have seen in recent years is that, after 20 years of Labour and Plaid Government in Wales, there is no great affection for the devolution settlement that we've currently got. The Assembly never actually reached 50 per cent turnout in an Assembly election, and I doubt very much whether it will get to that level in the election next year if it takes place. So, there is no such thing as the settled will of the Welsh people, because the Welsh people themselves change, generation upon generation. The most extraordinary thing about Plaid bringing this motion forward today is that, although they call themselves a nationalist party, they don't actually want an independent Wales at all, as Darren Millar pointed out. They're against the devolution of powers over agriculture, fisheries and environment, et cetera, to Cardiff, because they still strive to constrain Wales within membership of the European Union. Their idea of independence is that the major political decisions that Wales has to observe are made in Brussels; that our laws' final arbiters are based in Luxembourg; and our monetary policy and interest rates should be determined in Frankfurt. So, the idea that Rhun ap Iorwerth would have infinite borrowing powers in an independent Wales is absurd unless Wales were to have its own independent currency. So, is that now the policy of Plaid Cymru? I doubt it very much indeed. That was the hurdle over which Nicola Sturgeon couldn't jump in the Scottish referendum on independence. And, of course, if Wales were to be politically independent from England, it would mean a hard border with England, because Plaid Cymru believes in open borders, immigration and making Wales into a nation of sanctuary, accepting all comers, which would certainly not be acceptable to the majority of the people of England. So, I'm not quite sure how that would play out with the Welsh people, either. And as Sir Darren Millar pointed out effectively, the fiscal gap in Wales is vast; it amounts to nearly a third of Wales's GDP. The taxpayer subsidy from London and the south-east and eastern England to all parts of the UK, apart from those three, is huge and amounts in Wales to £4,289 per annum, per person. So, the idea that there would be infinite largesse that a Plaid Cymru Government of an independent Wales could dispense is absurd. Actually, what you would see is a massive contraction of the Welsh economy and all the poverty and deprivation that that would imply. But I think what we have seen in the last 20 years is the comprehensive failure of devolution to deliver on the promises that were made for it at the time. Wales is the poorest nation in the United Kingdom, with an average income of 75 per cent of the UK average. We've got three quarters of the population covered by health boards that are either in special measures or targeted intervention. We've got the worst education results in the United Kingdom, according to the PISA tables. Devolution powers have been used by the Welsh Government in the last 20 years, but not in the direction that could have made devolution a success. They haven't used these powers to try to secure some kind of competitive advantage over other parts of the United Kingdom; quite the reverse - they've added a ball and chain to the legs of the Welsh people. Over-regulation, the nanny state, we've seen it again this week in the Welsh Government's responses on coronavirus and the slowness of relaxation of the lockdown. The nanny-state attitudes of Labour and Plaid are there for all to see in trying to ban people from smoking outside restaurants and pubs now. Their virtue-signalling woke agenda is all they're interested in. Meanwhile, the interests of the Welsh people have stagnated, and relative to the rest of the United Kingdom, have actually declined over the last 20 years. Northern Ireland was at the bottom of the heap 20 years ago; today, it's Wales. Now, that's not to say that a small country like -
Welsh: Diolch, Llywydd dros dro. Wel, rwy'n synnu'n fawr clywed Darren Millar yn cytuno â'r hyn a ddywedodd Carwyn Jones wrthyf y tro diwethaf y gwnaethom ni drafod y materion hyn, mai datganoli oedd dymuniad diysgog pobl Cymru. Oherwydd, wrth gwrs, os mai refferendwm 1975 ar aelodaeth o'r UE oedd dymuniad diysgog pobl Prydain, ni fyddai Darren Millar wedi bod yn ymgyrchu i gael refferendwm arall yn 2016. A'r gwir amdani yw, mewn democratiaeth, ni all dim byd byth fod yn ddymuniad diysgog y bobl, oherwydd ni ellir rhwymo un genhedlaeth gan ei rhagflaenwyr, a byddai'n gwbl anghyfiawn i geisio cyfyngu hynny. Felly, i'r graddau hynny, rwyf i o blaid ymagwedd Plaid Cymru, sef os oes nifer fawr o bobl yng Nghymru sydd eisiau pleidleisio dros annibyniaeth, pam na ddylid caniatáu iddyn nhw fynegi hynny yn y ffordd ddemocrataidd, drwy gynnal refferendwm ar hynny? Felly, nid oes gennyf i unrhyw wrthwynebiad i hynny ddigwydd. Does gen i ddim amheuaeth y byddai'n cael ei wrthod gan fwyafrif llethol y bobl. Ond yr hyn yr ydym ni wedi'i weld yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf yw nad oes hoffter mawr o'r setliad datganoledig sydd gennym ni ar hyn o bryd, ar ôl 20 mlynedd o Lywodraeth Lafur a Phlaid Cymru yng Nghymru. Ni wnaeth y Cynulliad erioed gyrraedd 50 y cant o ran y nifer a bleidleisiodd mewn etholiad ar gyfer y Cynulliad, ac rwyf i'n amau'n fawr a fydd yn cyrraedd y lefel honno yn yr etholiad y flwyddyn nesaf os bydd yn digwydd. Felly, nid oes y fath beth â dymuniad diysgog pobl Cymru, gan fod pobl Cymru eu hunain yn newid o genhedlaeth i genhedlaeth. Y peth mwyaf rhyfeddol am Plaid yn cyflwyno'r cynnig hwn heddiw yw, er eu bod nhw'n galw eu hunain yn blaid genedlaetholgar, dydyn nhw mewn gwirionedd ddim yn dymuno cael Cymru annibynnol o gwbl, fel y nododd Darren Millar. Maen nhw yn erbyn datganoli pwerau dros amaethyddiaeth, pysgodfeydd a'r amgylchedd, ac ati, i Gaerdydd, gan eu bod nhw'n dal i ymdrechu i gyfyngu Cymru o fewn aelodaeth o'r Undeb Ewropeaidd. Eu syniad nhw o annibyniaeth yw bod y penderfyniadau gwleidyddol pwysig y mae'n rhaid i Gymru ufuddhau iddyn nhw yn cael eu gwneud ym Mrwsel; bod cymrodeddwyr terfynol ein deddfau wedi eu lleoli yn Lwcsembwrg; ac y dylid pennu ein polisi ariannol a'n cyfraddau llog yn Frankfurt. Felly, mae'r syniad y byddai Rhun ap Iorwerth yn cael pwerau benthyca diderfyn mewn Cymru annibynnol yn hurt oni bai bod gan Gymru ei harian annibynnol ei hunan. Felly, ai dyna yw polisi Plaid Cymru erbyn hyn? Rwyf i'n amau hynny'n fawr iawn. Dyna'r rhwystr nad oedd Nicola Sturgeon yn gallu ei oresgyn yn refferendwm yr Alban ar annibyniaeth. Ac, wrth gwrs, pe byddai Cymru yn wleidyddol annibynnol o Loegr, byddai'n golygu ffin galed â Lloegr, oherwydd bod Plaid Cymru yn credu mewn ffiniau agored, mewnfudo a gwneud Cymru yn genedl o noddfa, derbyn pawb sy'n dod i Gymru, ac ni fyddai hyn yn dderbyniol i fwyafrif o bobl Lloegr, yn sicr. Felly, dydw i ddim yn hollol siŵr sut y byddai pobl Cymru yn teimlo ynglŷn â hynny, ychwaith. Ac fel y dywedodd Syr Darren Millar mewn gwirionedd, mae'r bwlch cyllidol yng Nghymru yn enfawr; mae'n cyfateb i bron i draean o gynnyrch domestig gros Cymru. Mae'r cymhorthdal trethdalwr o Lundain a de-ddwyrain a dwyrain Lloegr i bob rhan o'r DU, ar wahân i'r tair ardal hynny, yn enfawr ac yn dod i £4,289 y flwyddyn, ar gyfer pob unigolyn yng Nghymru. Felly, mae'r syniad y byddai haelioni diddiwedd y gallai Llywodraeth Plaid Cymru ei ddosbarthu mewn Cymru annibynnol yn hurt. Mewn gwirionedd, yr hyn y byddech chi'n ei weld yw economi Cymru yn crebachu'n aruthrol a'r holl dlodi ac amddifadedd a fyddai o ganlyniad i hynny. Ond rwy'n credu mai'r hyn yr ydym ni wedi'i weld yn ystod yr 20 mlynedd diwethaf yw methiant cynhwysfawr datganoli i gyflawni'r addewidion a wnaed ar ei gyfer ar y pryd. Cymru yw gwlad dlotaf y Deyrnas Unedig, gydag incwm cyfartalog o 75 y cant o gyfartaledd y DU. Mae tri chwarter y boblogaeth yn byw o fewn byrddau iechyd sydd naill ai mewn mesurau arbennig neu ag ymyrraeth wedi'i thargedu. Ni sydd â'r canlyniadau addysg gwaethaf yn y Deyrnas Unedig, yn ôl tablau PISA. Mae pwerau datganoli wedi eu defnyddio gan Lywodraeth Cymru yn yr 20 mlynedd diwethaf, ond nid i'r cyfeiriad a allai fod wedi gwneud datganoli yn llwyddiant. Dydyn nhw ddim wedi defnyddio'r pwerau hyn i geisio sicrhau rhyw fath o fantais gystadleuol dros rannau eraill o'r Deyrnas Unedig; i'r gwrthwyneb yn llwyr - maen nhw wedi rhoi llyffethair ar goesau pobl Cymru. Gor-reoleiddio, y wladwriaeth faldodus, rydym ni wedi ei weld eto yr wythnos hon yn ymatebion Llywodraeth Cymru i'r coronafeirws a'r arafwch o ran llacio'r cyfyngiadau. Mae'r agweddau ar wladwriaeth faldodus Llafur a Phlaid Cymru yno i bawb eu gweld wrth iddi geisio gwahardd pobl rhag ysmygu y tu allan i fwytai a thafarndai erbyn hyn. Eu hunig ddiddordeb yw eu hagenda o amlygu rhinwedd a'u hymwybyddiaeth tybiedig o gyfiawnder cymdeithasol a hiliol. Yn y cyfamser, mae buddiannau pobl Cymru wedi aros yn eu hunfan, ac o'u cymharu â gweddill y Deyrnas Unedig, wedi dirywio mewn gwirionedd dros yr 20 mlynedd diwethaf. Gogledd Iwerddon oedd ar waelod y domen 20 mlynedd yn ôl; heddiw, Cymru sydd ar y gwaelod. Nawr, nid yw hynny'n golygu bod gwlad fach fel -