English: What I would say, though, is that we're disappointed in the plan. It's not as ambitious as we would have liked it to be, and clearly the next Welsh Government will have to do better and go further. One of the things that we would want to consider is the possibility of developing a national energy company, similar to Dŵr Cymru, our national water company, to provide people purchasing energy in Wales with an option where we would have indirect control over the kinds of tariffs that were being charged. I wonder if that's something that, if the Minister is part of the next Government, she would consider. In response to Mark Isherwood, the Minister didn't quite set out for me, or perhaps I missed it, where the differences are in the final plan from the original draft. The Minister has referred to the considerable efforts that were made, for example, by third sector organisations, by partners, to make representations, and yet - I must admit that this is our first reading, Deputy Presiding Officer - it doesn't seem to have had, the consultation, a very big impact on what the Minister has finally decided. So, I wonder if the Minister can tell us today, and perhaps give us one or two examples, where she has taken on board those ideas from the consultation. The Minister, of course, will be aware of the Welsh Government's target for 30 per cent of people to continue working from or close to home. Those who are working from home may see an increase, of course, in their fuel bills, and I have a concern that that may tip some families on just above poverty wages into fuel poverty. I wonder if the Minister has given that any consideration as she develops her plan. I wonder if the Minister can explain to us why she's decided to set less ambitious targets than the 2018 plan. There may be good reasons for that, but I think it would be helpful for us to understand it. And can she tell us how she will ensure that this plan doesn't operate in a silo and that it does speak effectively to other Welsh Government departments - to the department for the economy, skills, where we will need to be upskilling people to do this work on homes, and, of course, the housing department, which is actually essential? The Minister says she doesn't think it would have been feasible or appropriate to set those staging post interim targets, but I'm sure she will acknowledge that that is a statutory obligation. This is not something that's just been expressed as an opinion by people in the third sector, that that ought to be done. I do understand the point that she makes that it's difficult to set those interim targets while we don't know the full impact of the pandemic, but can she say a bit more about what the process will be for ensuring that those targets are set, and when she expects to be able to set them? There may be some difficulties there, I appreciate, because we don't yet know where we're going with the pandemic, but I think it would be helpful for people to understand that. Two more points very briefly, if I may. Can she set out how the well-being goals in the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 were used to generate this plan, and how they've informed the Government's work in this very important area? And finally, on the three long-term objectives, there should be no households estimated to be living in severe or persistent fuel poverty by 2035 'as far as reasonably practicable'. Now, I believe, and the Minister will correct me if I'm wrong, that that's a term that has a legal meaning. But it has been received by some in the sector as a qualifying target and saying 'Well, we'll decide whether we can do this or not'. Now, I don't think that is the Minister's intention, but I wonder if she can explain to us why she has decided to use that phrase 'as far as reasonably practicable' in two of the three long-term objectives. I'm sure that there is a good reason for that. I'm sure it is not her intention to water down the commitment, but I hope that she can give - not me, because that doesn't matter - those interested in the sector some clarity in this regard.
Welsh: Yr hyn y byddwn yn ei ddweud, serch hynny, yw ein bod yn siomedig yn y cynllun. Nid yw mor uchelgeisiol ag y byddem wedi hoffi iddo fod, ac mae'n amlwg y bydd yn rhaid i Lywodraeth nesaf Cymru wneud yn well a mynd ymhellach. Un o'r pethau y byddem ni eisiau ei ystyried yw'r posibilrwydd o ddatblygu cwmni ynni cenedlaethol, yn debyg i Dŵr Cymru, ein cwmni dŵr cenedlaethol, i roi dewis i bobl sy'n prynu ynni yng Nghymru lle byddai gennym ni reolaeth anuniongyrchol dros y mathau o brisiau a gânt eu codi. Tybed a yw hynny'n rhywbeth y byddai'n ei ystyried pe bai'r Gweinidog yn rhan o'r Llywodraeth nesaf. Mewn ymateb i Mark Isherwood, ni wnaeth y Gweinidog amlinellu'n hollol i mi, neu efallai imi golli hynny, lle mae'r gwahaniaethau yn y cynllun terfynol o'i gymharu â'r drafft gwreiddiol. Mae'r Gweinidog wedi cyfeirio at yr ymdrechion sylweddol a wnaed, er enghraifft, gan sefydliadau'r trydydd sector, gan bartneriaid, i gyflwyno sylwadau, ac eto - rhaid imi gyfaddef mai hwn yw ein darlleniad cyntaf, Dirprwy Lywydd - nid yw'n ymddangos ei fod wedi cael effaith fawr iawn ar yr hyn y mae'r Gweinidog wedi'i benderfynu o'r diwedd. Felly, tybed a wnaiff y Gweinidog ddweud wrthym ni heddiw, ac efallai roi un neu ddwy enghraifft inni, lle mae wedi ystyried y syniadau hynny o'r ymgynghoriad. Bydd y Gweinidog, wrth gwrs, yn ymwybodol o darged Llywodraeth Cymru i 30 y cant o bobl barhau i weithio gartref neu'n agos at eu cartrefi. Efallai y bydd y rhai sy'n gweithio gartref yn gweld cynnydd, wrth gwrs, yn eu biliau tanwydd, ac mae gennyf bryder y gallai hynny wthio rhai teuluoedd sy'n ennill fymryn yn fwy na chyflogau tlodi i dlodi tanwydd. Tybed a yw'r Gweinidog wedi rhoi unrhyw ystyriaeth i hynny wrth iddi ddatblygu ei chynllun. Tybed a all y Gweinidog esbonio wrthym ni pam ei bod hi wedi penderfynu gosod targedau llai uchelgeisiol na chynllun 2018. Efallai fod rhesymau da dros hynny, ond credaf y byddai'n ddefnyddiol inni ddeall hynny. Ac a all hi ddweud wrthym ni sut y bydd yn sicrhau nad yw'r cynllun hwn yn gweithredu ar ei ben ei hun a'i fod yn cydweithio'n effeithiol ag adrannau eraill Llywodraeth Cymru - ag adran yr economi, sgiliau, lle bydd angen i ni fod yn uwchsgilio pobl i wneud y gwaith hwn ar gartrefi, ac, wrth gwrs, yr adran dai, sy'n hanfodol mewn gwirionedd? Dywed y Gweinidog nad yw'n credu y byddai wedi bod yn ddichonadwy nac yn briodol gosod y targedau dros dro cyfamserol hynny, ond rwy'n siŵr y bydd yn cydnabod bod hynny'n rhwymedigaeth statudol. Nid yw hyn yn rhywbeth sydd wedi ei fynegi fel barn gan bobl yn y trydydd sector, fe ddylid gwneud hynny. Rwyf yn deall ei sylw ei bod yn anodd gosod y targedau dros dro hynny pan nad ydym ni'n gwybod effaith lawn y pandemig, ond a wnaiff hi ddweud ychydig mwy am beth fydd y broses ar gyfer sicrhau y caiff y targedau hynny eu gosod, a phryd mae hi'n disgwyl gallu eu gosod? Efallai y bydd rhai anawsterau yn hynny o beth, rwy'n sylweddoli, oherwydd nid ydym ni'n gwybod eto beth fydd y sefyllfa o ran y pandemig, ond rwy'n credu y byddai'n ddefnyddiol i bobl ddeall hynny. Dau sylw arall yn fyr iawn, os caf i. A all hi amlinellu sut y defnyddiwyd y nodau llesiant yn Neddf Llesiant Cenedlaethau'r Dyfodol (Cymru) 2015 i gynhyrchu'r cynllun hwn, a sut maen nhw wedi llywio gwaith y Llywodraeth yn y maes pwysig iawn yma? Ac yn olaf, o ran y tri amcan hirdymor, na ddylid amcangyfrif bod unrhyw aelwydydd yn byw mewn tlodi tanwydd difrifol neu barhaus erbyn 2035 'cyn belled ag y bo'n rhesymol ymarferol'. Nawr, rwy'n credu, ac fe wnaiff y Gweinidog yn fy nghywiro os ydw i'n anghywir, bod hwnnw'n derm sydd ag ystyr gyfreithiol iddo. Ond mae rhai yn y sector wedi'i dderbyn fel targed penodol ac yn dweud 'Wel, byddwn yn penderfynu a allwn ni wneud hyn ai peidio'. Nawr, nid wyf yn credu mai dyna yw bwriad y Gweinidog, ond tybed a wnaiff egluro wrthym ni pam y mae wedi penderfynu defnyddio'r ymadrodd hwnnw 'cyn belled ag y bo'n rhesymol ymarferol' mewn dau o'r tri amcan hirdymor. Rwy'n siŵr bod rheswm da dros hynny. Rwy'n siŵr nad ei bwriad yw lleihau'r ymrwymiad, ond rwy'n gobeithio y gall roi - nid i mi, achos nid yw hynny o bwys - i'r rhai sydd â diddordeb yn y sector rywfaint o eglurder yn hyn o beth.