English: So, we were looking, I think, at - there were four of them. I have three of them. The plastics tax - I think perhaps we're looking at, if that is going to happen, it would be more on a UK basis, and I think that it would be particularly difficult for manufacturers and supply chains to do for a just-in-Wales basis. The tourism tax, I think, was very unpopular and not, in my view, a good idea, and we're now looking at this vacant land tax. It has, I think, links to the other property taxes we have - the council tax, the business rates, the land transaction tax - and I think that there certainly is an argument for having one type of taxation devolved so one can look at how those different taxes interrelate with each other, and try and make the right decision for Wales about how that should work. My concern slightly about the vacant land tax idea is I can understand, in principle and in theory, why it might be a good idea, but I worry as to how it would act in practice. In particular, I fear that it might lead to a perception that business taxes were higher in Wales; that it was harder to do business in Wales than it was in England. And, however useful the incentive effect of the tax might be in theory, I just wonder whether in practice that will always be the case. We have this commercial property tax of - supertax, I call it - 6 per cent above properties of over £1 million. I think that, combined with that, the tax regime gets higher. We've spoken, Minister, a number of times, I think, in various contexts about this tax and how it operates, as with the First Minister when he was in that role before, and I'm concerned that we don't yet have good evidence as to how it's working. The Minister rightly identified that, in many cases, it won't apply because a property of above £1 million will be owned by a company, and the way the tax is essentially avoided is by the transfer of that company from one company to another. And, given the tax rate, people are incentivised to form those companies. And, when it's residential property, it's seen as bad tax avoidance that a stop should be put to and, at UK level, with the annual tax on enveloped dwellings, as well as the stamp duty land tax rates, that has been the pressure. But, within the commercial field, it seems to be much more the norm that high-value buildings are owned in companies. Is that something that we're comfortable with, and to what extent are we monitoring how high that proportion is, and the change in any of that proportion in light of the move from the 5 per cent to the 6 per cent rate in Wales? I also wonder what impact it's having on the purpose-built student accommodation market, particularly in Cardiff, and the potential for a build-to-rent market to grow. Because, those transactions, it may be more attractive for them to be done through the multiple dwellings relief, rather than the commercial tax that can be elected for it. The Minister has been very keen, when she argues with UK Government or makes the case for devolving a tax to Wales, not to say what she would do with that tax. And I'm not sure if I support or fully understand that approach. If we have a tax devolved, I understand why that's our business and it's not for Westminster to say what we should do with that tax, because it's devolved. But, when something is not yet devolved and you want to make the case to devolve it, would it not be helpful to the cause of doing that to explain to Westminster and Whitehall what the purpose of that devolution is? I think the vacant land tax - it could integrate very well with the other property taxes that we have. But, if we are to try and do it in Wales, and we've got a good idea how we would want to use it, why not explain that to Westminster? Because there may be benefits to the UK Government, for England or, indeed, for the Scottish Government, of seeing what we do with it. So, to persuade them to devolve it, why not make that case, including, say, what the direction of travel is and what we expect that to achieve? The income tax devolution - the Welsh rates - is huge compared to what we've seen with land transaction tax or the landfill disposals tax or, indeed, with council tax and business rates, which are large in size too, but where we haven't diverged to a very significant degree from the system as it applies in England. And I worry that, because we're not proposing to change the rates, Members are not giving the attention that the Welsh rates of income tax deserve. Firstly, we talk about the 10p band, but actually that's the amount we may lower it by - we can take it down 10p, but there's no limit on the amount by which we could put it up. So, that in itself makes it a very large thing.
Welsh: Felly, roeddem yn edrych, rwy'n credu, ar - roedd pedair ohonynt. Mae gennyf dair ohonynt. Y dreth ar blastigion - rwy'n credu efallai ein bod yn edrych ar, os yw hynny'n mynd i ddigwydd, byddai'n fwy ar sail y DU, ac rwy'n credu y byddai'n arbennig o anodd i weithgynhyrchwyr a chadwyni cyflenwi ei wneud ar gyfer Cymru'n unig. Roedd y dreth dwristiaeth yn amhoblogaidd iawn, rwy'n credu, ac nid oedd yn syniad da yn fy marn i, ac rydym yn edrych yn awr ar y dreth ar dir gwag. Credaf ei bod yn cysylltu â'r trethi eiddo eraill sydd gennym - y dreth gyngor, yr ardrethi busnes, y dreth trafodiadau tir - a chredaf fod dadl yn sicr dros ddatganoli un math o drethiant fel y gall rhywun ystyried y modd y mae'r gwahanol drethi hynny'n cydblethu â'i gilydd, a cheisio gwneud y penderfyniad iawn i Gymru ynghylch sut y dylai hynny weithio. Fy mhryder braidd am y syniad o dreth ar dir gwag yw gallaf ddeall, mewn egwyddor ac mewn theori, pam y gallai fod yn syniad da, ond rwy'n poeni sut y byddai'n gweithredu'n ymarferol. Yn benodol, ofnaf y gallai arwain at ganfyddiad fod trethi busnes yn uwch yng Nghymru; ei bod yn anos gwneud busnes yng Nghymru nag yn Lloegr. Ac er mor ddefnyddiol fyddai effaith gymhellol y dreth yn ddamcaniaethol, tybed a fydd hynny'n wir yn ymarferol bob amser. Mae gennym y dreth eiddo masnachol hon o - rwy'n ei galw'n uwchdreth - o 6 y cant ar eiddo dros £1 filiwn. Ar y cyd â hynny, credaf fod y gyfundrefn drethi'n mynd yn uwch. Rydym wedi siarad sawl tro rwy'n credu, Weinidog, mewn amrywiol gyd-destunau am y dreth hon a sut y mae'n gweithredu, fel gyda'r Prif Weinidog pan oedd yn y rôl honno'n flaenorol, ac rwy'n pryderu nad oes gennym dystiolaeth dda eto ynglŷn â sut y mae'n gweithio. Nododd y Gweinidog yn gywir na fydd yn gymwys mewn llawer o achosion oherwydd bydd eiddo sy'n fwy nag £1 filiwn yn eiddo i gwmni, a'r ffordd y caiff y dreth ei hosgoi yn y bôn yw drwy drosglwyddo'r cwmni hwnnw o un cwmni i'r llall. Ac o ystyried y gyfradd dreth, mae pobl yn cael eu cymell i ffurfio'r cwmnïau hynny. A phan fo'n eiddo preswyl, mae'n cael ei weld fel osgoi treth mewn ffordd ddrwg y dylid rhoi diwedd arni, ac ar lefel y DU, gyda'r dreth flynyddol ar anheddau wedi'u cynnwys o fewn y cwmni, yn ogystal â chyfraddau treth dir y dreth stamp, dyna fu'r pwysau. Ond yn y maes masnachol, ymddengys ei bod yn llawer mwy arferol fod adeiladau gwerth uchel yn eiddo i gwmnïau. A yw hynny'n rhywbeth yr ydym yn gyfforddus yn ei wneud, ac i ba raddau yr ydym yn monitro pa mor uchel yw'r gyfran honno, a'r newid yn unrhyw ran o'r gyfran honno yng ngoleuni'r symud o'r gyfradd o 5 y cant i'r gyfradd o 6 y cant yng Nghymru? Rwyf hefyd yn meddwl tybed pa effaith y mae'n ei chael ar y farchnad llety myfyrwyr a adeiladwyd yn bwrpasol, yn enwedig yng Nghaerdydd, a'r potensial i farchnad adeiladu i rentu dyfu. Oherwydd efallai y bydd yn fwy atyniadol i'r trafodion hynny gael eu gwneud drwy'r rhyddhad ar anheddau lluosog, yn hytrach na'r dreth fasnachol y gellir ei hethol ar ei chyfer. Mae'r Gweinidog wedi bod yn awyddus iawn, pan fydd yn dadlau â Llywodraeth y DU neu'n cyflwyno'r achos dros ddatganoli treth i Gymru, i beidio â dweud beth y byddai'n ei wneud â'r dreth honno. Ac nid wyf yn siŵr os wyf yn cefnogi neu'n deall y dull hwnnw'n llawn. Os oes gennym dreth wedi'i datganoli, rwy'n deall pam mai ein busnes ni yw hynny ac nid lle San Steffan yw dweud beth y dylem ei wneud â'r dreth honno, gan ei bod wedi'i datganoli. Ond pan nad yw rhywbeth wedi'i ddatganoli eto a'ch bod am gyflwyno'r achos dros ei ddatganoli, oni fyddai'n ddefnyddiol i'r achos dros wneud hynny eich bod yn esbonio i San Steffan a Whitehall beth yw pwrpas y datganoli hwnnw? Rwy'n credu bod y dreth ar dir gwag - gallai integreiddio'n dda iawn â'r trethi eiddo eraill sydd gennym. Ond os ydym am geisio ei wneud yng Nghymru, a bod gennym syniad da sut y byddem am ei defnyddio, beth am esbonio hynny i San Steffan? Oherwydd gallai fod manteision i Lywodraeth y DU, i Loegr, neu i Lywodraeth yr Alban yn wir, o weld beth a wnawn â hi. Felly, er mwyn eu perswadio i'w datganoli, beth am gyflwyno'r achos hwnnw, gan gynnwys, dyweder, beth yw'r cyfeiriad teithio a beth y disgwyliwn i hynny ei gyflawni? Mae datganoli treth incwm - y cyfraddau Cymreig - yn enfawr o'i gymharu â'r hyn a welsom gyda'r dreth trafodiadau tir neu'r dreth gwarediadau tirlenwi neu, yn wir, gyda'r dreth gyngor ac ardrethi busnes, sy'n fawr o ran maint hefyd, ond lle nad ydym wedi gwyro i raddau sylweddol iawn o'r system fel y'i gweithredir yn Lloegr. Ac am nad ydym yn bwriadu newid y cyfraddau, rwy'n pryderu nad yw'r Aelodau'n rhoi'r sylw y maent yn ei haeddu i'r cyfraddau treth incwm Cymreig. Yn gyntaf, soniwn am y band 10c, ond mewn gwirionedd dyna'r swm y gallem ei ostwng - gallwn ei ostwng 10c, ond nid oes terfyn ar y swm y gallem ei godi. Felly, mae hynny ynddo'i hun yn ei wneud yn beth mawr iawn.