English: I quite agree with both the points you made there, Mike. Firstly, on Steffan Lewis, he was an invaluable member of the Finance Committee since 2016 when he joined it. I know we all feel not just the sadness of his loss in this Chamber but also the sadness of the loss of that spirit he brought to the committee. He always had a different viewpoint, and in issues like the devolution of taxation, when we do get income tax devolved, his voice will be one that will be missing, actually, from an analysis of that debate, and that is tragic, and our thoughts are with his family at this time. Secondly, you are right: if you look at the south-east of England separate from England then yes, it does distort the tax base across the whole of the UK. There was a difference between Wales and other parts of the UK as well, so that was the point I was trying to make, but you are right, it is not as great as if you include the south-east of England, and we're not going to have an economy like the south-east of England - we wouldn't want it, either - certainly not in the next few years. Both valid points. So, it's important that we retain taxpayers and that we grow the tax base. The current situation is unsustainable, and I don't say 'unsustainable' in the way that we normally would in these debates, because clearly the tax take will be the tax take and it will be there, but if we want to have a tax take meeting our aspirations, matching our aspirations, then I think we would all agree that we need to increase that, and that means having competitive tax rates. If we want to be a more prosperous country, we need a taxation system that encourages wage growth. I don't apologise for wanting people in Wales to earn more, because if people earn more, there's a greater tax take and more money for public services. Now, today we've heard a lot of talk about raising income tax. That seems to be where most of the discussion has focused. But we haven't heard much about varying tax rates anymore, income tax rates, or indeed lowering tax rates. I think we need to hear a little bit more about the benefits of that from the Welsh Government, about how we can generate more revenue by offering attractive rates of tax so that people want to come and live in Wales, and those people here who want to invest in our economy have the money to do so. Whilst I recognise that, this year, income tax rates are remaining static, and that's to be welcomed, there have been questions over the Government's commitment to this, despite a promise in 2016 not to raise income tax until at least 2021. The old arguments about putting up taxes to increase revenue to spend are, of course, simplistic and outdated. Anything that stifles entrepreneurialism ultimately harms the economy and reduces the tax take. We have a very long and porous border with England, and if Wales has a higher rate of income tax over time, you would see a rise in people moving across the border, away from here, taking businesses, jobs and economic potential to England, and the tax would go to the UK Treasury, not the Welsh Treasury. Before Mike Hedges intervenes, if he's thinking of that, I appreciate that it's not quite as straightforward as saying that would happen overnight, but that would be the danger that we would risk over a medium-term, a long-term situation. None of us want that to happen. When Scotland increased rates of tax in 2017 for both the higher and additional rates by a penny in the pound, thousands of higher and additional rate taxpayers left. There was a black hole in the nation's finances there. We need to avoid that here, and I appreciate that Wales isn't Scotland - I'm sure the Minister will make that point. Often, we say that Wales isn't England on this side of the Chamber, so I would appreciate where that point would come from. But nonetheless, Scotland has gone some way down this line. They are ahead of us by a few years in income tax devolution, so there are valuable lessons that can be learned and should be learned. The devolution of income tax does, of course, fit into a broader landscape of tax devolution and greater accountability. LTT and LDT are already with us, and, of course, the Welsh Government is considering new taxes. We know a vacant land tax is in the pipeline to test the system; a tourism tax was jettisoned, but there's still an open door for local authorities to do that; a social care tax, we've had some discussion about that. So, there are all manner of taxes coming down the line, and I think it's important that we look at the benefits of low taxation as well as new taxes such as a social care tax, which may have some advantages over the longer term. Deputy Llywydd, I'm looking forward to hearing what all Members have to give to this debate today. We've looked at the amendments, so, turning briefly to both the amendments, we'll be supporting amendment 1, which enhances, we feel, the motion. We will be opposing amendment 2 - although we certainly support a mature debate about the issues - tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. But we feel that, at this point, that amendment waters down our original motion, which is talking about the benefits of a low-taxation economy. So, whilst we support the spirit of that amendment, we will not be supporting it at the end of this debate. So, let's have a mature debate about how we can use taxation levers to make the Welsh economy more dynamic and prosperous, and let's clear up any confusion about the Welsh Government's tax plans for the remainder of this Assembly term. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say in terms of hopefully sticking with that commitment not to raise tax rates, the Welsh rate of income tax, up until 2021, and hopefully keeping a competitive and low-tax economy beyond that.
Welsh: Rwy'n cytuno'n llwyr â'r pwyntiau a wnaethoch yn y fan honno, Mike. Yn gyntaf, ar Steffan Lewis, roedd yn aelod gwerthfawr o'r Pwyllgor Cyllid ers iddo ddod yn aelod ohono yn 2016. Gwn ein bod i gyd yn teimlo, nid yn unig y tristwch o'i golli yn y Siambr hon, ond hefyd y tristwch o golli'r ysbryd a gyfrannodd yn y pwyllgor. Roedd ganddo bob amser safbwynt gwahanol, ac mewn materion fel datganoli trethiant, pan ddatganolir treth incwm fe welwn golli ei lais wrth ddadansoddi'r ddadl honno, ac mae hynny'n drasig, ac mae ein meddyliau gyda'i deulu ar yr adeg hon. Yn ail, rydych yn gywir: os edrychwch ar dde-ddwyrain Lloegr ar wahân i Loegr, ydy, mae'n ystumio'r sylfaen drethu ar draws y DU gyfan. Roedd gwahaniaeth rhwng Cymru a rhannau eraill o'r DU yn ogystal, felly dyna oedd y pwynt y ceisiwn ei wneud, ond rydych yn gywir, nid yw mor fawr os nad ydych yn cynnwys de-ddwyrain Lloegr, ac nid ydym yn mynd i gael economi fel de-ddwyrain Lloegr - ni fyddem ei heisiau, chwaith - nid yn y blynyddoedd nesaf yn sicr. Dau bwynt dilys. Felly, mae'n bwysig ein bod yn cadw trethdalwyr a'n bod yn tyfu'r sylfaen drethu. Mae'r sefyllfa bresennol yn anghynaliadwy, ac nid wyf yn dweud 'anghynaliadwy' yn y ffordd y byddem fel arfer yn ei ddefnyddio yn y dadleuon hyn, oherwydd yn amlwg bydd yr hyn a dderbynnir mewn trethi yno, ond os ydym am gael derbyniadau treth sy'n bodloni ein dyheadau, sy'n cyd-fynd â'n huchelgeisiau, credaf y byddem oll yn cytuno fod angen inni ei gynyddu, ac mae hynny'n golygu cael cyfraddau treth cystadleuol. Os ydym am fod yn wlad fwy ffyniannus, mae angen system dreth sy'n annog twf cyflogau. Nid wyf yn ymddiheuro am fod eisiau i bobl yng Nghymru ennill mwy, oherwydd os yw pobl yn ennill mwy, mae'r derbyniad treth yn fwy a cheir mwy o arian ar gyfer gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Nawr, clywsom lawer o sôn heddiw am godi treth incwm. Ymddengys mai dyna lle y canolbwyntiodd y rhan fwyaf o'r drafodaeth. Ond ni chlywsom lawer am amrywio cyfraddau treth mwyach, cyfraddau treth incwm, na gostwng cyfraddau treth yn wir. Credaf fod angen inni glywed ychydig mwy am fanteision hynny gan Lywodraeth Cymru, ynglŷn â sut y gallwn gynhyrchu mwy o refeniw drwy gynnig cyfraddau treth deniadol fel bod pobl yn dymuno dod i fyw yng Nghymru, a bod y bobl yma sy'n awyddus i fuddsoddi yn ein heconomi ag arian i wneud hynny. Er fy mod yn cydnabod bod cyfraddau treth incwm yn aros yn sefydlog eleni, ac mae hynny i'w groesawu, cafwyd cwestiynau ynglŷn ag ymrwymiad y Llywodraeth i hyn, er gwaethaf addewid yn 2016 i beidio â chodi treth incwm tan 2021 ar y cynharaf. Mae'r hen ddadleuon ynglŷn â chodi trethi i gynyddu refeniw i'w wario yn rhy syml ac wedi dyddio wrth gwrs. Mae unrhyw beth sy'n mygu entrepreneuriaeth yn niweidio'r economi yn y pen draw ac yn lleihau derbyniadau treth. Mae gennym ffin hir a thyllog iawn â Lloegr, ac os oes gan Gymru gyfradd uwch o dreth incwm, dros amser byddech yn gweld cynnydd yn y bobl sy'n symud ar draws y ffin, oddi yma, gan fynd â busnesau, swyddi a photensial economaidd i Loegr, a byddai'r dreth yn mynd i Drysorlys y DU, nid i Drysorlys Cymru. Cyn i Mike Hedges ymyrryd, os yw'n meddwl gwneud hynny, rwy'n sylweddoli nad yw mor syml â dweud y byddai hynny'n digwydd dros nos, ond dyna fyddai'r perygl dros y tymor canolig, sefyllfa hirdymor. Nid oes neb ohonom am i hynny ddigwydd. Pan gynyddodd yr Alban gyfraddau treth yn 2017 ar gyfer y cyfraddau uwch ac ychwanegol o geiniog yn y bunt, gwelwyd miloedd o drethdalwyr y gyfradd uwch ac ychwanegol yn gadael. Cafwyd twll du yng nghyllid y wlad. Mae angen inni osgoi hynny yma, ac rwy'n sylweddoli nad yr Alban yw Cymru - rwy'n siŵr y bydd y Gweinidog yn gwneud y pwynt hwnnw. Yn aml, rydym ni ar yr ochr hon i'r Siambr yn dweud nad Cymru yw Lloegr, felly buaswn yn derbyn y sail dros y pwynt hwnnw. Ond serch hynny, mae'r Alban wedi mynd beth o'r ffordd i lawr y llwybr hwn. Maent ar y blaen inni o rai blynyddoedd o safbwynt datganoli treth incwm, felly mae gwersi gwerthfawr y gellir eu dysgu ac y dylid eu dysgu. Wrth gwrs, mae datganoli treth incwm yn ffitio i dirlun ehangach datganoli trethi a mwy o atebolrwydd. Mae'r dreth trafodiadau tir a'r dreth gwarediadau tirlenwi eisoes gyda ni, ac wrth gwrs, mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ystyried trethi newydd. Gwyddom fod treth ar dir gwag ar y gweill i roi prawf ar y system; cafodd treth twristiaeth ei gwrthod, ond mae'r drws yn dal ar agor i awdurdodau lleol wneud hynny; treth gofal cymdeithasol, cawsom rywfaint o drafodaeth ynglŷn â hynny. Felly, mae pob math o drethi ar y ffordd, ac rwy'n credu ei bod hi'n bwysig inni edrych ar fanteision trethiant isel yn ogystal â threthi newydd megis treth gofal cymdeithasol, a gallai fod rhai manteision i hynny yn y tymor hwy. Ddirprwy Lywydd, rwy'n edrych ymlaen at glywed yr hyn sydd gan bob Aelod i'w gyfrannu i'r ddadl hon heddiw. Rydym wedi edrych ar y gwelliannau, felly, gan droi'n fyr at y ddau welliant, byddwn yn cefnogi gwelliant 1 am ein bod yn teimlo ei fod yn gwella'r cynnig. Byddwn yn gwrthwynebu gwelliant 2 a gyflwynwyd yn enw Rhun ap Iorwerth, er y buaswn yn sicr yn cefnogi dadl aeddfed ar y materion sy'n codi. Ond rydym yn teimlo, ar hyn o bryd, fod y gwelliant yn glastwreiddio ein cynnig gwreiddiol, sy'n sôn am fanteision economi treth isel. Felly, er ein bod yn cefnogi ysbryd y gwelliant hwnnw, ni fyddwn yn ei gefnogi ar ddiwedd y ddadl hon. Felly, gadewch inni gael dadl aeddfed ynglyn â sut y gallwn ddefnyddio ysgogiadau treth i wneud economi Cymru yn fwy deinamig a ffyniannus, a gadewch inni gael gwared ar unrhyw ddryswch ynghylch cynlluniau treth Llywodraeth Cymru am weddill y tymor Cynulliad hwn. Edrychaf ymlaen at glywed beth sydd gan y Gweinidog i'w ddweud o ran cadw at yr ymrwymiad hwnnw i beidio â chodi cyfraddau treth, cyfradd treth incwm Cymru, hyd nes 2021, a chadw economi dreth isel a chystadleuol y tu hwnt i hynny, gobeithio.