techiaith/cofnodycynulliad_en-cy huggingface dataset:
English: I do think that it's too early to be suggesting such significant amendments as are on the table at the moment. But to go back to Elin's earlier point, there is a substantial strategy and a Measure in place that are still in their infancy. So, the idea of making such significant amendments to the package now strikes one as something that's happening exceptionally soon. In terms of the standards regime itself, I think, considering the different kinds of amendments that are on the table, that some of the points that Emyr made about the exact detail of the standards and how they're framed, which are technical issues - we can differentiate between those and the ideas that are also being considered about amending this entire process of how standards are imposed. Then the role of the Government and the role of the commissioner - that takes us to a more significant level of amending the regime. So, taken all together, because we're still in a relatively early period, I would tend towards thinking that if amendments are to be made, it should be those more detailed, technical amendments that are about refining things rather than repackaging the entire process.
Welsh: Rydw i yn meddwl ei bod hi'n gyfnod cynnar, ac mae'n eithriadol o gynnar, i fod yn awgrymu diwygiadau mor sylweddol ag sydd ar y bwrdd ar hyn o bryd. I fynd yn ôl at bwynt Elin yn gynharach, mae yna strategaeth iaith sylweddol mewn lle a Mesur sydd dal yn gynnar iawn. Felly, mae'r syniad o gyflwyno diwygiadau sydd mor sylweddol i'r pecyn yna ar hyn o bryd yn taro rhywun fel rhywbeth sy'n digwydd yn eithriadol o sydyn. O ran y gyfundrefn safonau ei hunan, rydw i'n meddwl efallai, o ystyried y gwahanol fathau o ddiwygiadau sydd ar y bwrdd, fod rhai o'r pwyntiau yr oedd Emyr yn sôn amdanynt o ran union fanylder y safonau a sut maen nhw'n cael eu fframio, sy'n bethau eithaf technegol - bod modd gwahaniaethu'r rheini o gymharu â'r syniadau sydd hefyd yn cael eu hystyried o ddiwygio'r holl broses o sut mae safonau'n cael eu gosod. Rôl y Llywodraeth mewn perthynas â rôl y comisiynydd - mae hwnnw'n mynd â rhywun i lefel mwy sylweddol o ddiwygio'r drefn. Felly, at ei gilydd, byddwn i, oherwydd ein bod ni'n dal mewn cyfnod cymharol gynnar, yn tueddu tuag at, 'Os diwygio, diwygio mwy manwl, technegol, sydd yn edrych ar fireinio pethau' yn hytrach nag ailbecynnu'r holl broses yn llwyr.
English: Well, one of the things that I - Emyr has already mentioned Alun Ffred's evidence, and one of the things that he emphasised there - and I would endorse it entirely - is that one of the things that's a great problem in that decision is that we're continuing a situation where the health services haven't come under the standards regime yet. That's a sector that's very important, a key sector, and the decision to delay means that there are some key sectors that don't operate under the current regulatory system, and that is a concern. It feeds back in terms of the concern with regard to the loss of momentum - there is a great deal of work in creating systems that has taken place, and we need the focus on implementation, I think.
Welsh: O ystyried hynny, un o'r pethau rydw i'n - . Mae Emyr eisoes wedi sôn am dystiolaeth Alun Ffred, ac un o'n pethau yr oedd e'n eu pwysleisio fanna - a byddwn i'n ategu hynny'n llwyr - yw un o'r pethau sydd yn broblem fawr yn y penderfyniad yna yw'r ffaith ein bod ni'n parhau mewn sefyllfa lle nad yw'r gwasanaethau iechyd wedi dod o dan y drefn safonau eto. Mae hwnnw'n sector pwysig iawn, allweddol iawn, ac mae'r penderfyniad i oedi felly yn golygu bod yna rai sectorau allweddol sydd ddim yn gweithredu o dan y system reoleiddio ar hyn o bryd, ac mae hynny yn gonsyrn. Mae'n bwydo nôl wedyn i'r holl gonsyrn ynglŷn â cholli momentwm - bod yna waith mawr yn creu systemau wedi digwydd, a bod angen y ffocws ar weithredu, rydw i'n teimlo.
English: Any further comments on that?
Welsh: A oes sylwadau pellach ar hynny?
English: I hope your inquiry will be a step in moving that forward. There has been delay. There has also been some progress towards the establishment of a commission and so forth, but we are talking of a context where the staffing levels are low. Is that the best use of staff resources at the moment, or should we be trying to properly implement the legislation we already have? Are we truly facing a situation where the legislation has failed? I'm not clear about that. I fear that the broader context of austerity, and so on, is impacting the challenges around the implementation of this legislation, like other pieces of legislation such as the well-being of future generations Bill in the public sector.
Welsh: Gobeithio bydd eich ymchwiliad chi yn gam i symud hynny ymlaen, mewn ffordd. Mae yna oedi. Mae yna hefyd symud ymlaen tuag at ddatblygu cyfundrefn comisiwn, ac yn y blaen. Eto, rydym ni'n delio â chyd-destun lle mae'r staffio yn fychan. Ai dyna'r defnydd gorau o adnoddau staff ar hyn o bryd, neu yn hytrach roi tro go iawn ar weithredu'r ddeddfwriaeth? A ydym ni wir yn wynebu sefyllfa lle nad ydy deddfwriaeth yn gweithio o gwbl? Nid wyf i'n eglur. Rydw i'n ofni mwy mai'r cyd-destun ehangach o lymdra, ac yn y blaen, sy'n effeithio ar yr heriau o amgylch gweithredu'r ddeddfwriaeth yma, yn yr un modd â darnau eraill o ddeddfwriaeth fel Bil cenedlaethau'r dyfodol o fewn y sector cyhoeddus.
English: Thank you very much. We'll come to the proposals for new legislation with Jenny now.
Welsh: Diolch. Mi ddown ni at y cynigion ar gyfer deddfwriaeth newydd efo Jenny fan hyn, rŵan.
English: We haven't seen the legislation yet; we've only seen the White Paper, and that's a very different thing. I want to see it written down before expressing a final view on it, but I would say that what I see as being positive is, in the first instance, the White Paper is thoroughly drafted; some careful work has been done on it. On occasions, it skips over certain issues that one might expect, but it does set out some options and it provides a rationale for which options would be the options of choice. But I would say that the positive is the realisation - and perhaps it contradicts what Elin and Huw believe - but this realisation that you need something at an arm's length that does that promotion and facilitation work, such as a public agency of some sort. I think that's a very positive development, and something that was truly needed, but it's unfinished business, I think, from the original Measure. So, I think that that would be very positive.
Welsh: Nid ydym ni wedi gweld deddfwriaeth eto, wrth gwrs, beth rydym ni wedi ei weld ydy Papur Gwyn, ac mae hwnnw yn beth gwahanol iawn. Rydw i eisiau gweld y peth wedi ei ysgrifennu lawr cyn fy mod i'n rhoi barn derfynol ar y peth. Ond byddwn i'n dweud mai'r peth rwy'n ei weld yn gadarnhaol - yn y lle cyntaf, mae'r Papur Gwyn yn bapur trylwyr, ac wedi gwneud gwaith gofalus, rydw i'n credu. Ar adegau, mae o'n neidio dros rhai pethau, fel y byddai rhywun yn ei ddisgwyl, ond mae o'n gosod allan opsiynau ac mae o'n gosod rhesymau dros ba opsiynau sydd yn ddewisol. Ond byddwn i'n dweud y peth cadarnhaol ydy'r sylweddoliad - ac efallai bod hyn yn groes i beth mae Elin a Huw yn ei ystyried - ond y sylweddoliad yma bod angen rhywbeth lled braich sydd yn gwneud y gwaith hyrwyddo, hybu yma fel asiantaeth gyhoeddus, felly. Rydw i'n credu bod hwnnw yn beth cadarnhaol tu hwnt, ac yn rhywbeth a oedd hen angen ei wneud, ac mae o'n fusnes anorffenedig, rydw i'n credu, o'r Mesur gwreiddiol. Felly, byddwn i'n dweud bod hwnnw yn beth cadarnhaol iawn.
English: Well, yes, I made that point, but until this White Paper, the policy commitment to that hasn't been in place; it's been to the contrary, namely that it was within Government that was the appropriate place to do that. So, although the current Measure enables that to happen, it hasn't, as a matter of fact, happened, because no budget's been provided to the commissioner in order to carry out those functions, for very understandable reasons. So, what I see as being positive in this White Paper is the policy realisation that you need something additional in the mix in terms of promoting the Welsh language.
Welsh: Wel, do, fe wnes i ddweud hynny, ond hyd nes y papur hwn nid ydy'r ymrwymiad polisi hwnnw wedi bod yno; mae o wedi bod i'r gwrthwyneb, sef mai o fewn y Llywodraeth mae'r lle cywir i wneud hynny. Felly, er bod y Mesur presennol yn galluogi hynny i ddigwydd, nid ydy o, fel mater o ffaith, wedi digwydd oherwydd nad oes cyllideb wedi ei rhoi i'r comisiynydd, am resymau dealladwy iawn, ar gyfer gwneud hynny. Felly, yr hyn rydw i'n ei gael sy'n beth cadarnhaol o'r Papur Gwyn hwn ydy'r sylweddoliad polisi bod angen rhywbeth ychwanegol oddi mewn i'r mix o ran hyrwyddo'r Gymraeg.
English: What I personally feel is a strength in this is that it does, in the opening sections, very clearly set out the kinds of points that I was expressing earlier in terms of the different elements of policy that are required with regard to the Welsh language, and it offers an explanation of how the Government perceives those issues that come within the regulatory regime, which means working with organisations, and then the wider idea of promoting the social use of the language. It does set that out clearly. As I've tried to explain, and as Elin has tried to explain in earlier answers, where we aren't convinced to date is that response that the White Paper offers ultimately, namely that it combines those two functions in one external body. I think, on a more fundamental level, what I feel at the moment is that those functions are better off held separately. In an ideal world, perhaps one could have two external agencies that would do that work, but for reasons to do with resources and political reality at the moment, that's not likely to happen. And so, to go back to that point, then, that I feel that they're better held as separate functions, one comes back to considering the model of the Government doing the promotional work more effectively and the commissioner then focusing on that clarity in terms of that greater focus on the regulatory work.
Welsh: Beth rydw i'n bersonol yn meddwl sydd yn gryfder yn y Papur Gwyn yw: mae e yn y rhannau agoriadol yn glir iawn yn gosod allan y math o bwyntiau roeddwn i'n eu mynegi yn gynharach o ran yr elfennau gwahanol o bolisi sydd eu hangen mewn perthynas â'r Gymraeg, ac yn cynnig eglurhad o sut mae'r Llywodraeth yn dehongli beth sydd yn dod o dan y syniad o reoleiddio, sydd yn y bôn yn golygu pwyso a gweithio gyda sefydliadau, ac wedyn y syniad ehangach yna o hybu defnydd cymdeithasol. Mae'n cyflwyno hynny'n glir. Fel rydw i wedi trio egluro, ac fel mae Elin wedi egluro yn yr atebion cynt, beth nad ydym ni efallai wedi'n hargyhoeddi ohono hyd yn hyn yw'r ateb lle mae'r Papur Gwyn yn cyrraedd yn y pen draw, sef mai'r syniad gorau yw cyfuno'r ddwy swyddogaeth yna mewn un asiantaeth allanol. Rydw i'n meddwl, yn fwyaf sylfaenol, yr hyn rydw i'n ei deimlo ar hyn o bryd yw bod y swyddogaethau yna yn well wedi'u gwahanu. Mewn byd delfrydol, efallai y byddai rhywun yn gallu cael dwy asiantaeth allanol a fyddai'n gwneud y gwaith yna, ond am resymau'n ymwneud ag adnoddau a realiti gwleidyddol presennol, nid yw hynny'n debygol o ddigwydd. Ac felly, i fynd nôl i'r pwynt yna, wedyn, fy mod i'n teimlo eu bod nhw'n well fel swyddogaethau ar wahân, mae rhywun yn dod nôl i gysidro'r model o Lywodraeth yn gwneud yr hybu yn fwy effeithiol a'r comisiynydd yn cael yr eglurder yna i ganolbwyntio'n fwy penodol ar y gwaith rheoleiddio.
English: Well, I would agree that there is a question to ask about whether legislation is needed, therefore. I think there is a role, in the way that the functions are allocated at present, perhaps, to be more clear on that. The language that's used in describing the role of the commissioner tends to include just the terminology of promoting and promotion, and that could be just an accident of drafting, how the documents express themselves, but is does create that impression to many people, therefore, that - . It goes back to this point that the idea of promoting a language can be used in different contexts. It does sometimes create the impression that the commissioner as a body should deal with this whole range of issues with regard to promoting the use of the Welsh language. But my feeling is that it's more appropriate to have, as its main function, working with organisations and getting them to meet their duties, and that that wider idea, then, of working with individuals, families and communities, in social contexts, to use the Welsh language is work that is better done elsewhere.
Welsh: Wel, fe fyddwn i'n cytuno â chi bod yna gwestiwn i'w godi ynglŷn ag a oes angen deddfwriaeth, felly. Rydw i'n meddwl bod yna le, yn y ffordd y mae swyddogaethau wedi'u dynodi ar hyn o bryd, efallai, i fod yn fwy eglur. Mae'r ieithwedd sy'n cael ei defnyddio wrth ddisgrifio rôl y comisiynydd yn dueddol o gynnwys jest y derminoleg o hybu yn aml, ac fe allai hynny jest bod yn ddamwain o'r ffordd y mae pethau wedi'u drafftio, sut mae dogfennau wedi'u mynegi, ond mae e'n creu'r argraff i nifer o bobl, felly, fod - . Mae e'n mynd nôl i'r pwynt yma fod y syniad yma o hybu iaith yn gallu cael ei ddefnyddio mewn gwahanol gyd-destunau. Mae e'n creu'r argraff weithiau y dylai'r comisiynydd fel corff fod yn ymwneud â'r holl ystod o bethau y byddem ni'n disgwyl eu gwneud i hybu ac annog y defnydd o'r Gymraeg. Ond fy nheimlad i yw mai mwy priodol fel ei bennaf swyddogaeth yw'r gwaith yna o weithio gyda sefydliadau a'u cael nhw i gwrdd â'u dyletswyddau, a bod y syniad ehangach yna, wedyn, o weithio gydag unigolion, teuluoedd a chymunedau, mewn cyd-destunau cymdeithasol, i ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg yn waith sy'n well i ddigwydd yn rhywle arall.
English: Well, I think that, perhaps, there is a need - . You have an example there of how this terminology of promoting and facilitating can become difficult to get a grip of. You're right in the sense that - whether it's through this idea of stating rights on the face of the Bill, as we discuss in the paper, or that it's guaranteed through standards regimes, for example that there is a quality service through the medium of Welsh given, in terms of education, care or any other kind of service - . Providing that clearly and of quality is something that can be done, yes, but there is still a role, then, in terms of what we know about the practices of people's language use and people's attitudes towards language use - there will still be a need, then, for promotional and marketing work more widely with regard to not just encouraging those who are already convinced that they want to use that service, but in selling the idea to wider audiences. Because that's where we cross, in a way, from this idea of providing for the citizens who already live their life through the medium of Welsh, to the wider idea, which is part of the Government's wider strategy, of creating growth, and not just providing for those who already speak Welsh, but encouraging more of the citizens of Wales to learn the language and to live their life through the medium of Welsh. So, that wider promotion and marketing is different work - we'll still need that, regardless of the quality of the service that's provided. In a way, that discussion conveys what is perhaps difficult to get to grips with sometimes with this terminology.
Welsh: Wel, rydw i'n meddwl efallai bod eisiau - . Mae enghraifft gyda chi fanna o sut mae'r derminoleg yma o hybu a hyrwyddo yn gallu mynd yn anodd i'w dal. Rydych chi'n iawn yn yr ystyr - boed e drwy y syniad o ddatgan hawliau ar Fil, fel rydym ni'n ei drafod yn y papur, neu ei fod yn cael ei warantu drwy drefniadau safonau, er enghraifft bod gwasanaeth o safon drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn cael ei gyflwyno, o ran gofal, addysg neu unrhyw fath o wasanaeth arall - . Mae darparu hynny yn glir ac o safon yn rhywbeth sy'n gallu cael ei wneud, ydy, ond mae dal rôl, wedyn, o ran yr hyn rydym ni'n gwybod o ran arferion defnydd iaith pobl ac agweddau defnydd iaith pobl - bydd dal angen hefyd, wedyn, am waith hyrwyddo a marchnata ehangach sydd yn ymwneud ag annog nid jest y sawl sydd eisoes yn benderfynol eu bod nhw eisiau defnyddio'r gwasanaeth yma, ond gwerthu'r syniad i gynulleidfaoedd ehangach. Achos dyna lle rydym ni'n croesi, mewn ffordd, wedyn, o'r syniad yna o fod yn darparu ar gyfer y dinasyddion sydd eisoes yn byw eu bywyd yn Gymraeg, i'r syniad ehangach yna, sy'n rhan o strategaeth ehangach y Llywodraeth, o fod yn creu twf, ac nid jest darparu i'r sawl sydd yn siarad Cymraeg eisoes, ond yn annog mwy o drigolion Cymru i ddysgu'r iaith a byw eu bywyd drwy gyfrwng yr iaith. So, mae'r hybu a'r marchnata ehangach yna yn waith gwahanol. Byddai dal angen hynny, dim ots pa mor safonol yw'r gwasanaeth sy'n cael ei ddarparu. Mewn ffordd, mae'r drafodaeth yna'n cyfleu beth sydd efallai bach yn anodd am ddal y termau yma weithiau.
English: And at the moment, of course, that broader work is happening within a very, very small unit within Government. If that unit had greater resources, the argument is that they could do far more. But at the heart of that unit at the moment is the work of the mentrau iaith and organisations such as mudiad ysgolion meithrin and so on, who do that promotion work. I suppose that's the difference, isn't it? If that could be strengthened - through strengthening it within Government or, as you suggest, outwith Government, and there are some contradicting arguments there - that's the real promotion work, and then the regulation and the promotion of rights is something that could remain with the commissioner. Have I understood that correctly?
Welsh: Ac ar hyn o bryd, wrth gwrs, mae'r gwaith yna, y gwaith ehangach yna, yn digwydd gan uned fechan iawn, iawn o fewn y Llywodraeth. Petai'r uned yna efo mwy o adnoddau, y ddadl ydy y bydden nhw'n gallu gwneud llawer iawn yn fwy. Ond yn greiddiol i'r uned yna ar hyn o bryd ydy gwaith y mentrau iaith a'r mudiadau fel y mudiad ysgolion meithrin ac yn y blaen, sydd yn gwneud gwaith hyrwyddo. Dyna ydy'r gwahaniaeth, mae'n debyg, onid e? Petai hwnnw'n gallu cael ei gryfhau - drwy gryfhau o fewn Llywodraeth neu, fel rydych chi'n ei awgrymu, y tu allan i Lywodraeth, ac mae yna ddadleuon ar draws yn fanna - dyna ydy gwir hyrwyddo, ac wedyn mae rheoleiddio ac efallai hybu hawliau yn rhywbeth a fyddai'n parhau gyda'r comisiynydd. A ydw i'n deall hynny - ?
English: Broadly speaking, yes.
Welsh: Yn fras, ie.
English: And in a way, it's not just those bodies that operate directly in terms of the Welsh language that are involved in the promotion; local authorities are part of that promotional work in providing swimming lessons through the medium of Welsh. We need to think beyond those specific Welsh bodies, and through having those promotional functions and a role in directing promotion through Government, it's much easier to co-ordinate that wide range of bodies that can influence the encouragement of people to use the Welsh language and to expand the opportunities for them to do so, I think.
Welsh: Ac mewn ffordd, nid y cyrff yna yn unig sydd yn gweithredu yn uniongyrchol o ran y Gymraeg sy'n rhan o'r hybu; mae cynghorau lleol yn rhan o'r hybu yna wrth ddarparu gwersi nofio yn Gymraeg. Mae angen meddwl y tu hwnt i'r cyrff Cymraeg penodol, a thrwy gael y swyddogaethau hybu a rôl mewn cyfeirio hybu o fewn y Llywodraeth, mae'n llawer haws cael gafael ar gydlynu'r ystod eang o gyrff yna sy'n gallu dylanwadu ar yr anogaeth i bobl ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg ac ehangu'r cyfleon i ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg, rwy'n credu.
English: And at the moment, that small unit sits within the education department, I believe I'm right in saying that. You're arguing that you need to up its status, so it would be a corporate directorate that drives that change in terms of behaviour and in terms of that general promotional activity. You believe that that should be at the very top of Government.
Welsh: Ac ar hyn o bryd, mae'r uned fechan yna yn gorwedd o fewn yr adran addysg, os ydw i'n gywir. Rydych chi'n dadlau bod angen uchafu honno i fod yn rhyw fath o gyfarwyddiaeth gorfforaethol a fydd yn gyrru y newid yna sydd ei angen o ran ymddygiad ac o ran yr hyrwyddo cyffredinol yna. Rydych chi'n meddwl y dylai hynny fod yn uwch i fyny, ar dop Llywodraeth.
English: And I assume that all three of you would agree on that, namely that there may be an argument for allowing things to remain as they are with the current legislation, but that you need to shift the emphasis towards how we deliver the 1 million Welsh speakers strategy. Accepting that there is need for some - perhaps there is a need to somewhat reform the Measure and how standards are implemented and so on, but, perhaps, the main work in terms of encouraging more people to use the Welsh language is looking at how we implement the strategy rather than thinking about changes to legislation.
Welsh: Ac rwy'n cymryd bod y tri ohonoch chi yn cytuno efo hynny, hynny yw bod y ddeddfwriaeth - efallai bod yna ddadl dros adael i bethau fod efo'r Ddeddf fel y mae ar hyn o bryd, ond bod angen symud y pwyslais tuag at sut ydym ni'n cyflawni'r strategaeth i gyrraedd 1 filiwn o siaradwyr. O dderbyn bod ishio rhywfaint - efallai bod yna angen diwygio rhyw ychydig ar y Mesur ac ar y ffordd mae'r safonau yn cael eu gweithredu ac yn y blaen, ond, efallai, prif waith o ran cael mwy o bobl i siarad Cymraeg ydy edrych ar sut i weithredu'r strategaeth yn hytrach na meddwl am beth i'w wneud efo'r ddeddfwriaeth.
English: No, it's about the regulatory style. It's about how you operate as a regulator. And we must bear in mind that commissioner has only been working as a face-to-face regulator for two years, perhaps - that is, we simply haven't had the time to see this bearing fruit.
Welsh: Na, mae'n ymwneud â steil rheoleiddio. Mae'n ymwneud â sut rydych chi'n gweithredu fel rheoleiddiwr. Ac mae'n rhaid inni gofio, fydd o ddim ond wedi bod yn gweithredu fel rheoleiddiwr wyneb yn wyneb ers cwta flwyddyn, dwy flynedd efallai - hynny yw, nid yw'r amser wedi bod yna er mwyn inni allu gweld hyn yn dwyn ffrwyth.
English: The question is: 'What did I see coming out of the White Paper as being positive?' And I thought that that emphasis on this stream of activity, which has, perhaps, been ignored in the context of this debate, is an important emphasis, and that's one of the valuable things about this White Paper.
Welsh: Y cwestiwn oedd: 'Beth oeddem ni'n ei weld yn gadarnhaol yn dod allan o'r Papur Gwyn?' Ac roeddwn i'n credu bod y pwyslais ar y ffrwd yma, sydd efallai wedi cael ei anwybyddu yng nghyd-destun y drafodaeth, yn bwyslais pwysig, ac mae hynny'n un o'r pethau gwerthfawr ynglŷn â'r Papur Gwyn yma.