techiaith/cofnodycynulliad_en-cy huggingface dataset:
English: I appreciate the way that you have responded to this debate, but there are changes of opinion and differences of opinion across the Chamber, but there is also agreement across the Chamber. Would it be possible for you as Llywydd to hold discussions outwith the legislative process between Members to see where there is space available to reach agreement, and to have broader cross-party agreement across the Chamber before this Bill goes through the legislative process?
Welsh: Dwi'n cydnabod y ffordd dŷch chi wedi ymateb i'r drafodaeth. Dwi'n gwerthfawrogi hynny. Mae yna newidiadau barn ar draws y Siambr, ond mae yna hefyd gytundeb ar draws y Siambr. A fuasai'n bosibl i chi fel Llywydd gynnal trafodaethau tu fas i'r broses ddeddfu rhwng Aelodau i weld lle mae yna ofod ar gael i ddod at gytundeb a chael cytundeb ehangach ar draws y Siambr cyn bod y Bil yma'n mynd trwy'r broses ddeddfu?
English: Of course, I recognise the importance of doing that, and, if I may say so, I did try to do that before tabling the legislation in the first instance by holding discussions between parties, with individual Members as well, to see where the supermajority lay. And it's clear that we need to continue to do that work, and I would be very pleased to collaborate with everyone in this place to find a way of achieving that supermajority of 40 Members that will be needed to vote in favour of any change to the name, any change to the franchise, when it comes to passing and reaching Stage 4 in this place. In saying all of that, it's appropriate to remind Members that Stages 2 and 3 will happen in the autumn term, and there will be amendments put forward at that time. Do bear in mind the need for legislation of this kind to have a majority of 40 Members out of 60 before you table any amendments. Do continue to discuss among yourselves the issues where there isn't full consensus at the moment, and I'm sure that we can see, in due course, that this piece of constitutional legislation, which is interesting and important, will receive the approval of this Assembly. Thank you for your contributions this afternoon, and we will move forward to Stages 2 and 3 in the autumn.
Welsh: Dwi, wrth gwrs, yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd gwneud hynna, ac, os caf i ddweud, fe wnes i geisio gwneud hynna cyn cyflwyno'r ddeddfwriaeth yn y lle cyntaf, wrth geisio cynnal trafodaethau rhwng pleidiau, gydag Aelodau yn unigol hefyd, i weld lle'r oedd y mwyafrif, yr uwch fwyafrif, yn bodoli. Mae'n amlwg bod angen parhau i wneud hynna. Byddwn i'n falch iawn o farn a chydweithio gyda phawb yn y lle yma i ffeindio modd o gyrraedd yr uwch fwyafrif yna o 40 o Aelodau fydd angen i bleidleisio dros unrhyw newid enw, dros unrhyw newid etholfraint, pan ddaw i basio ac i gyrraedd Cyfnod 4 yn y lle yma. Wrth ddweud hynny i gyd, mae'n briodol i atgoffa Aelodau fe fydd Cyfnod 2 a 3 yn digwydd yn yr hydref, ac fe fydd yna welliannau bryd hynny. Cadwch mewn cof, felly, yr angen, mewn deddfwriaeth o'r math yma, i gael mwyafrif o 40 allan o 60 cyn cyflwyno unrhyw welliannau yn ystod y drafodaeth. Parhewch i drafod â'ch gilydd ynglŷn â materion lle does yna ddim consensws llawn ar hyn o bryd, a dwi'n siŵr y gallwn ni weld, maes o law, y bydd y darn yma o ddeddfwriaeth gyfansoddiadol ddiddorol a phwysig yn derbyn cymeradwyaeth y Cynulliad yma. Diolch ichi am gyfrannu y prynhawn yma, ac fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen at Gyfnod 2 a 3 yn yr hydref.
English: Item 8 on our agenda this afternoon is the Plaid Cymru debate on Assembly reform, and I call on Adam Price to move the motion - Adam.
Welsh: Eitem 8 ar ein hagenda y prynhawn yma yw dadl Plaid Cymru ar ddiwygio'r Cynulliad, a galwaf ar Adam Price i wneud y cynnig - Adam.
English: I do recognise the argument that you put in - that you want it now, and you want it delivered in 2021 - but in the commitment that was signed up to by quite a number of existing cross-party Members today to do this, absolutely, but to do it by 2026, recognising a certain realpolitik in order to achieve that, it isn't only Labour and a couple of Conservative Members and Liberal Democrats and so on, but it is some notable members of Plaid Cymru - people who led Plaid Cymru - who are on that list as well, former Assembly Members here. So, I would ask him simply to recognise that there may indeed be a shared objective here, but the question is how we can build the consensus and achieve this together beyond today's debate.
Welsh: Rwy'n cydnabod y ddadl a roddwyd gennych - eich bod am ei gael yn awr, ac rydych am iddo gael ei gyflwyno yn 2021 - ond yn yr ymrwymiad a gefnogwyd gan gryn nifer o Aelodau trawsbleidiol presennol heddiw i wneud hyn, yn sicr, ond ei wneud erbyn 2026, gan gydnabod ychydig o realpolitic er mwyn cyflawni hynny, nid dim ond Llafur ac un neu ddau o Aelodau Ceidwadol a Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ac ati sy'n dweud hynny, ond mae rhai aelodau nodedig o Blaid Cymru - pobl a arweiniodd Blaid Cymru - ar y rhestr honno hefyd, cyn-Aelodau'r Cynulliad yma. Felly, yn syml, hoffwn ofyn iddo gydnabod y gallai fod amcan cyffredin yma, ond y cwestiwn yw sut y gallwn adeiladu'r consensws a chyflawni hyn gyda'n gilydd y tu hwnt i'r ddadl heddiw.
English: But the essence of the argument that I'm presenting is that we cannot afford to wait until 2026. This is not a problem that can be put off until tomorrow, let alone another five years' time - it's a crisis in our democracy that we have to put right today. And we can do it today if we support this motion. And for those who are in any doubt about whether we have the time, I'd just remind you that in 1997, of course, by my reckoning, there were 20 months between the 1997 referendum and the elections to the first Assembly. We have 22 months before the next election, and I don't think any of us would want to argue that we are less capacious than Westminster in bringing forward legislation to strengthen Welsh democracy.
Welsh: Ond hanfod y ddadl rwy'n ei chyflwyno yw na allwn fforddio aros tan 2026. Nid yw hon yn broblem y gellir ei gohirio tan yfory, heb sôn am bum mlynedd arall - mae'n argyfwng yn ein democratiaeth y mae'n rhaid inni ei unioni heddiw. A gallwn ei wneud heddiw os ydym yn cefnogi'r cynnig hwn. Ac i'r rhai sydd ag unrhyw amheuaeth p'un a oes gennym amser, hoffwn eich atgoffa mai 20 mis oedd yna rhwng y refferendwm yn 1997 a'r etholiadau i'r Cynulliad cyntaf, wrth gwrs, yn ôl yr hyn rwy'n ei gyfrif. Mae gennym 22 mis cyn yr etholiad nesaf, ac nid wyf yn credu y byddai neb ohonom eisiau dadlau bod gennym lai o allu na San Steffan i gyflwyno deddfwriaeth ar gyfer cryfhau democratiaeth Cymru.
English: Adam, I detect that there is support for the position that you are advocating, but for that to happen there is also a requirement for maximum unity, maximum agreement, and would it not be a more intelligent approach were you and others to seek that agreement and not simply put down a motion on a Wednesday afternoon if you're really serious about achieving that sense of unity? Because otherwise, we'll go through the motions again, and it will be lost.
Welsh: Adam, synhwyraf fod cefnogaeth i'r safbwynt yr ydych yn ei argymell, ond er mwyn i hynny ddigwydd, mae gofyn cael cymaint o undod â phosibl hefyd, cymaint o gytundeb â phosibl, ac oni fyddai'n ymagwedd fwy deallus pe baech chi ac eraill yn chwilio am y cytundeb hwnnw ac nid cyflwyno cynnig ar brynhawn dydd Mercher os ydych chi'n wirioneddol o ddifrif ynghylch cyflawni'r ymdeimlad hwnnw o undod? Oherwydd fel arall, byddwn yn mynd drwy'r broses eto, ac fe gaiff ei golli.
English: Well, I think we've been very clear and consistent about this. I understand the spirit in which he's making the point, but where else can we actually have that debate about the future of the Parliament than in the Parliament itself? I'm afraid I'm not going to apologise for that. This is the forum where we can have that discussion. Now, it can be done on a non-partisan basis, and I believe that has been the spirit in which I have made my comments today. Now, I think we could act today. We could act today. We could decide this afternoon to increase the size, and hence the effectiveness of this Parliament. We should not defer this to a future Parliament. We should take responsibility and act now on this issue, before our inability to act effectively in all other areas begins to erode public trust, I fear, in the very foundations of this Parliament.
Welsh: Wel, rwy'n meddwl ein bod ni wedi bod yn glir ac yn gyson iawn ynglŷn â hyn. Rwy'n deall yr ysbryd y mae'n gwneud y pwynt ynddo, ond ble arall y gallwn gael y ddadl am ddyfodol y Senedd nag yn y Senedd ei hun? Mae arnaf ofn nad wyf yn mynd i ymddiheuro am hynny. Dyma'r fforwm lle gallwn gael y drafodaeth honno. Nawr, gellir ei wneud ar sail amhleidiol, a chredaf mai yn yr ysbryd hwnnw y gwneuthum fy sylwadau heddiw. Nawr, rwy'n credu y gallem weithredu heddiw. Gallem weithredu heddiw. Gallem benderfynu cynyddu maint, ac felly effeithiolrwydd y Senedd hon, y prynhawn yma. Ni ddylem drosglwyddo hyn ymlaen i Senedd yn y dyfodol. Dylem gymryd cyfrifoldeb a gweithredu yn awr ar y mater hwn, cyn i'n hanallu i weithredu'n effeithiol ym mhob maes arall ddechrau erydu ymddiriedaeth y cyhoedd, mae arnaf ofn, yn sylfeini'r Senedd hon.
English: Thank you. I have selected the three amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be de-selected. If amendment 2 is agreed, amendment 3 will be de-selected. I call on Mark Reckless to move amendment 1 tabled in the name of Caroline Jones.
Welsh: Diolch. Rwyf wedi dethol y tri gwelliant i'r cynnig. Os derbynnir gwelliant 1, bydd gwelliannau 2 a 3 yn cael eu dad-ddethol. Os derbynnir gwelliant 2, bydd gwelliant 3 yn cael ei ddad-ddethol. Galwaf ar Mark Reckless i gynnig gwelliant 1 a gyflwynwyd yn enw Caroline Jones.
English: I absolutely take that correction, thank you very much - fewer councillors. I'm very embarrassed by that. Fewer councillors, 11 fewer MPs, and four fewer MEPs - then perhaps the Member would like to come back with the argument then. But we in our group are not persuaded of the case for increasing the size of the Assembly and do not think other Members will be able to bring the members of the country with them currently. Thank you.
Welsh: Rwy'n cymryd y cywiriad hwnnw'n llwyr, diolch yn fawr iawn - llai o gynghorwyr. Mae hynny'n peri embaras mawr i mi. Llai o gynghorwyr, 11 yn llai o ASau, a phedwar yn llai o ASEau - efallai yr hoffai'r Aelod ddod â'i ddadl yn ôl bryd hynny. Ond nid yw ein grŵp ni wedi ein darbwyllo ynglŷn â'r achos dros gynyddu maint y Cynulliad ac nid ydym yn credu y bydd Aelodau eraill yn gallu dod â phobl y wlad gyda hwy ar hyn o bryd. Diolch i chi.
English: Thank you. I call on Jane Hutt to move amendment 2, tabled in her in name. Jane.
Welsh: Diolch. Galwaf ar Jane Hutt i gynnig gwelliant 2 a gyflwynwyd yn ei henw. Jane.
English: Can I say how much I welcome the tone and the content of your contribution, chief whip - I nearly said 'Minister'? Can I say, the new First Minister - he's in his place, so I've got to be careful what I'm going to say now - [ Laughter.] - has shown very real leadership on issues around the future direction of travel of this place, of this Parliament, in terms of numbers, electoral systems and the rest of it? Is it time that we collectively, as Labour Members of this place, showed that collective leadership that the First Minister has shown, and went out and made the case for the change to take place sooner rather than later?
Welsh: A gaf fi ddweud faint rwy'n croesawu cywair a chynnwys eich cyfraniad, brif chwip - bu bron i mi ddweud 'Gweinidog'? Os caf ddweud, mae'r Prif Weinidog newydd - mae yn ei sedd, felly mae'n rhaid i mi fod yn ofalus iawn beth rwy'n mynd i'w ddweud yn awr - [ Chwerthin. ] - wedi dangos arweinyddiaeth go iawn ar faterion yn ymwneud â chyfeiriad teithio'r lle hwn yn y dyfodol, y Senedd hon, o ran niferoedd, systemau etholiadol a'r gweddill? A yw'n bryd inni, gyda'n gilydd, fel Aelodau Llafur y lle hwn, ddangos yr arweinyddiaeth gyfunol honno y mae'r Prif Weinidog wedi'i dangos, a mynd allan a dadlau'r achos dros i'r newid ddigwydd yn gynt yn hytrach nag yn hwyrach?
English: Well, thank you, Alun Davies. I think, like you, I was pleased to sign the Electoral Reform Society's statement today, and it was good to see it signed from across part of the Chamber. But I believe that there's a good discussion, and I expect we'll hear more about it in a minute. Also, the Electoral Reform Society came to our party conference - I don't know if they came to your party conferences - and we had a very good debate. What was interesting was how many members not just of our party, but of third sector organisations and campaigning groups, came to that fringe meeting, and we engaged and we got their views about how we should respond to the Laura McAllister report. [ Interruption.] Can I just finally, then, say that I do believe we can move forward, in line with the Labour amendment to the motion today, which I urge you to support? Our position is that no legislation designed to reform the size of the Assembly and the electoral system should be introduced without a public mandate via a manifesto commitment. But I think work now has to be done. We've done this in the past in a cross-party way effectively, with constructive engagement leading to consensus, and that's what we seek today. Diolch.
Welsh: Wel, diolch, Alun Davies. Fel chithau, rwy'n meddwl, roeddwn yn falch o lofnodi datganiad y Gymdeithas Diwygio Etholiadol heddiw, ac roedd yn dda ei weld yn cael ei lofnodi gan bob rhan o'r Siambr. Ond credaf fod yna drafodaeth dda, ac rwy'n disgwyl y byddwn yn clywed mwy amdani mewn munud. Hefyd, daeth y Gymdeithas Diwygio Etholiadol i gynhadledd ein plaid - nid wyf yn gwybod a ddaethant i gynadleddau eich pleidiau chi - a chawsom ddadl dda iawn. Yr hyn a oedd yn ddiddorol oedd faint o aelodau, nid yn unig o'n plaid, ond o sefydliadau trydydd sector a grwpiau ymgyrchu, a ddaeth i'r cyfarfod ymylol hwnnw, ac fe wnaethom ymgysylltu a chael eu barn ar sut y dylem ymateb i adroddiad Laura McAllister. [ Torri ar draws. ] A gaf fi ddweud i orffen, felly, fy mod yn credu y gallwn symud ymlaen, yn unol â gwelliant Llafur i'r cynnig heddiw, ac rwy'n eich annog i'w gefnogi? Ein safbwynt ni yw na ddylid cyflwyno unrhyw ddeddfwriaeth a luniwyd i ddiwygio maint y Cynulliad a'r system etholiadol heb fandad cyhoeddus drwy ymrwymiad maniffesto. Ond rwy'n credu bod yn rhaid gwneud gwaith yn awr. Rydym wedi gwneud hyn yn effeithiol yn y gorffennol mewn ffordd drawsbleidiol, gydag ymgysylltiad adeiladol yn arwain at gonsensws, a dyna a geisiwn heddiw. Diolch.
English: Thank you. Can I call on Paul Davies to move amendment 3, tabled in the name of Darren Millar? Paul.
Welsh: Diolch. A gaf fi alw ar Paul Davies i gynnig gwelliant 3 a gyflwynwyd yn enw Darren Millar? Paul.
English: In a moment. The people of Wales must be involved, and we as elected representatives must make the case that strengthening the capacity and scrutiny functions of the National Assembly for Wales is in their interests. I give way to the Member for Mid and West Wales.
Welsh: Mewn eiliad. Rhaid i bobl Cymru fod yn rhan o hyn, ac mae'n rhaid i ni fel cynrychiolwyr etholedig wneud yr achos fod cryfhau capasiti a swyddogaethau craffu Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru o fudd iddynt hwy. Fe ildiaf i'r Aelod dros Ganolbarth a Gorllewin Cymru.
English: I hear what the Member says, and I welcome the positive way in which he's responded, but does he accept that there is actually a risk to making this case for the future of Wales that the lack of ability to scrutinise really effectively could mean that something serious would go wrong and, as Adam Price has suggested, we could end up inadvertently undermining the faith of people in this institution because we're not able to effectively scrutinise, and poor scrutiny makes for poor law and poor policy?
Welsh: Rwy'n clywed yr hyn y mae'r Aelod yn ei ddweud, ac rwy'n croesawu'r ffordd gadarnhaol y mae wedi ymateb, ond a yw'n derbyn bod risg mewn gwirionedd i wneud yr achos hwn dros ddyfodol Cymru y gallai'r diffyg gallu i graffu'n wirioneddol effeithiol olygu y gallai rhywbeth difrifol fynd o'i le ac fel yr awgrymodd Adam Price, gallem danseilio ffydd pobl yn y sefydliad hwn yn anfwriadol am nad ydym yn gallu craffu'n effeithiol, ac mae craffu gwael yn arwain at gyfraith wael a pholisi gwael?
English: - both he and I agree is inadequate? So be brave.
Welsh: - a fi yn cytuno sy'n annigonol? Dewch, byddwch yn ddewr.
English: More of you.
Welsh: Mwy ohonoch chi.
English: More, absolutely more. And I can see the First Minister nodding away vigorously there. [ Laughter. ] I've had conversations with Members, as recommended by the Llywydd in the previous debate. I've had conversations with Members across the Chamber. I've spoken to the leader of Plaid Cymru and to Siân Gwenllian today, I've spoken to Jayne Bryant, and one of the things that Jayne Bryant said to me is we need to look at representation as a whole across the UK and how our representation works. I buy into that argument. One of the things I was disappointed with Plaid Cymru - I could have signed up to their motion but for that '2021'. Personally, I'd like to see it by 2021, but you've got to have, as Huw Irranca-Davies said, realpolitik, and you've got to bring people with you. I don't want to see another referendum in this country, I'm sick of referenda, and I think they're alien to representative democracy, but I still think you need a mandate for this particular change, and that mandate has got to be put into a manifesto that is presented at an Assembly election. I think if we had Liberal Democrats, Labour and Plaid Cymru particularly, but inviting all the other parties to join in and say, 'We are united on this,' then we'd have that mandate going into 2026. Who knows who will be in Government? Who knows who will be implementing it? But we know it would be implemented because there would be a cross-party majority - [ Interruption. ]
Welsh: Mwy, mwy yn bendant. A gallaf weld y Prif Weinidog yn nodio'i ben yn frwd. [ Chwerthin. ] Rwyf wedi cael sgyrsiau gydag Aelodau, fel yr argymhellodd y Llywydd yn y ddadl flaenorol. Rwyf wedi cael sgyrsiau gydag Aelodau ar draws y Siambr. Rwyf wedi siarad ag arweinydd Plaid Cymru a Siân Gwenllian heddiw, rwyf wedi siarad â Jayne Bryant, ac un o'r pethau a ddywedodd Jayne Bryant wrthyf yw bod angen inni edrych ar gynrychiolaeth yn gyffredinol ledled y DU a sut y mae ein cynrychiolaeth yn gweithio. Rwy'n cefnogi'r ddadl honno. Un o'r pethau yr oeddwn yn siomedig â Phlaid Cymru yn eu cylch - gallwn fod wedi cytuno â'u cynnig heblaw am y '2021' hwnnw. Yn bersonol, hoffwn ei weld erbyn 2021, ond mae'n rhaid i chi gael realpolitic fel y dywedodd Huw Irranca-Davies, ac mae'n rhaid i chi ddod â phobl gyda chi. Nid wyf eisiau gweld refferendwm arall yn y wlad hon, rwyf wedi cael llond bol ar refferenda, ac rwy'n credu eu bod yn anghydnaws â democratiaeth gynrychioliadol, ond rwy'n dal i gredu bod angen mandad arnoch ar gyfer y newid hwn, ac mae'n rhaid i'r mandad hwnnw gael ei roi mewn maniffesto a gyflwynir mewn etholiad Cynulliad. Pe bai gennym Ddemocratiaid Rhyddfrydol, Llafur a Phlaid Cymru yn enwedig, ond gan wahodd yr holl bleidiau eraill i ymuno a dweud, 'Rydym yn unedig ar hyn,' rwy'n credu y byddai gennym y mandad hwnnw ar gyfer 2026. Pwy a ŵyr pwy fydd mewn Llywodraeth? Pwy a ŵyr pwy fydd yn ei weithredu? Ond rydym yn gwybod y byddai'n cael ei weithredu oherwydd byddai mwyafrif trawsbleidiol - [ T orri ar draws. ]
English: No, I think he's almost coming to -
Welsh: Na, rwy'n credu ei fod bron â dod -
English: I'm being told by the Dirprwy Lywydd that I can't. But the last thing I'd say is that this is just part of a bigger picture, and I think we also need - I say to the First Minister, when representing us to Westminster - we need a federalised UK as well. I think we need a federalised system across the UK with regional Parliaments in England that recognise devolved power, but we need a system of devo max in Wales that is balanced across the United Kingdom. I think that is absolutely fundamental. We have the opportunity here in this Parliament to lead the way on it, and I hope and will do my best with my colleagues to persuade the Labour Party that that's what we need in our manifesto in 2021.
Welsh: Mae'r Dirprwy Lywydd wedi dweud na chaf. Ond y peth olaf y buaswn i'n ei ddweud yw nad yw hwn ond yn rhan o ddarlun ehangach, ac rwy'n credu bod angen hefyd - rwy'n dweud wrth y Prif Weinidog, wrth ein cynrychioli i San Steffan - mae angen DU ffederal hefyd. Rwy'n credu bod angen system ffederal ar draws y DU gyda Seneddau rhanbarthol yn Lloegr sy'n cydnabod grym datganoledig, ond mae angen system 'devo max' yng Nghymru sy'n gytbwys ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig. Credaf fod hynny'n gwbl sylfaenol. Mae gennym gyfle yma yn y Senedd i arwain y ffordd ar hyn, ac rwy'n gobeithio, ac fe wnaf fy ngorau gyda fy nghyd-Aelodau i berswadio'r Blaid Lafur mai dyna sydd ei angen arnom yn ein maniffesto yn 2021.
English: Thanks for that intervention, Leanne. I mentioned in my earlier intervention on Adam Price, leader of Plaid Cymru, that there is also realpolitik, and it is a question of having this within a mandate of manifestos going into the election. So, that's your answer. [ Interruption.] You may agree or not agree with it, but that is the realpolitik of taking this forward. And, again, I would appeal -
Welsh: Diolch am yr ymyriad hwnnw, Leanne. Soniais yn fy ymyriad yn gynharach ar Adam Price, arweinydd Plaid Cymru, fod yna realpolitic hefyd, ac mae'n fater o gael hyn o fewn mandad maniffestos wrth edrych tuag at yr etholiad. Felly, dyna eich ateb. [ Torri ar draws.] P'un a ydych yn cytuno ai peidio, dyna yw realpolitic bwrw ymlaen â hyn. Ac unwaith eto, hoffwn apelio -