English: James Evans, in his exchanges with Hefin David, and in his original contribution, posed the question: why didn't the Labour Government of the late 1990s rip up the fragmented system? I think what they did was a genuine attempt to use a partnership approach with operators to develop a different way of doing it. But I think we can say that partnership approach hasn't worked. We can see now in Manchester, four years on from bringing in a partnership franchise system, they're still not able to get it off the ground. So, I think it's entirely right for us to say that different approaches have been tried to achieve a shared objective, and we are learning all the time about what works and what doesn't work. And, obviously, there is an interest as well in the privatised commercial sector in scuppering some of these plans - let's be clear about that. Legal actions are often brought by private operators against attempts to do this. There's often lobbying and various schemes are concocted to suggest that franchising properly isn't needed as partnerships can work, and I don't think that is the approach we should be following. That's what we're doing in this Government that is different from what's come before: looking at a continental model of a supervisory board rather than a local partnership board, an all-Wales approach, with TfW at its centre, but genuinely working through the different parts of local government, the county council level, the corporate joint committee level, the Welsh Government and TfW, to try between us to come up with a system that's going to work, that will allow franchising on a whole-area basis. Because the current privatised system really is the root of the problem, and that's where I agree with the amendment. Obviously, Government Ministers traditionally, in these debates, abstain on the motions, because they are backbench motions, and we'll continue that tradition today. But we certainly support the spirit of what's being argued this afternoon, and we need to move to a more planned and coherent basis. Now, as Carolyn Thomas said in her very powerful contribution, I thought, rural bus services are rarely money makers, she said, but they are a lifeline. And that is absolutely right. And she quoted an example of an operator pulling out of a route and then demanding a subsidy 10 times greater than had previously been the case, and that just goes to show how the system is gamed by commercial operators, and that's what happens in a market, isn't it? And that's not to criticise the individual operators; that is what the market is set up to do. But, as Hefin David said in his well-made contribution, there is clear market failure, because the market is not serving the public interest. So, what we often see is operators competing for a small number of lucrative routes and then not running socially necessary routes. Now, there was a time when there was sufficient public funding to be able to offer subsidies for these socially necessary routes, but, after 10 years of austerity, that discretionary funding simply isn't there. And often, I think - . We've seen Bridgend County Borough Council, where now commercial services only run; there is no funding available for subsidising routes, and that's been reflected in the nature of the bus network now that remains in that area. We don't want to see that. We want to see, as we can see in many functioning public transport systems across our near neighbours, a regular, reliable bus service. I note what Sam Kurtz said about the example of a part-time worker trying to get back from a late shift from Tenby where the system currently isn't good enough. We need it to be reliable, we need it to be regular, and we need it to be affordable. And do you know what? It's absolutely doable. Where there's a will, there's a way. This isn't too complicated to do; it's just we haven't been willing to spend the money necessary, or put the right regulatory structure in place in order for it to happen, and that's what we want to do. And this is where, I think, the particular focus of rural areas comes in, because much of what we've described applies to all parts of Wales. In rural areas, there's an extra set of challenges. Now, you can have a perfectly functioning public transport system in rural areas. If you look at rural Germany or rural Switzerland, which are just as sparsely, if not more sparsely, populated as parts of rural Wales, they have villages there, small villages, with a regular hourly service, because that's what they've prioritised to do, and that's what they've done in their franchised systems, where they use profit-making services in towns to cross-subsidise loss-making services in rural areas, recognising there's a social need here. The case, I think, for a proper bus system is as much about social justice as it is about tackling climate change. And I feel passionately about that, as, indeed, do Members right across the divide. So, let's work together to come up with something that's going to stand the test of time. So, we'll be bringing forward a White Paper, and, as I say, we are genuinely consulting with local authorities at the moment, and, when that is introduced to the Senedd, let's work together on a cross-party basis to see if we can strengthen it and make sure it is fit for purpose. And I will certainly promise to be in listening mode to work with you to see if it can be made even stronger. So, I can assure Members that we are taking it seriously, we are treating it urgently, but we want to get it right. Now, Natasha Asghar made the argument that there's not enough funding for buses, and it's certainly true that even though we put in a significant amount of money - . In the last 15 months, we've prioritised more than £108 million to support the bus industry through COVID. As Hefin and Jack Sargeant rightly pointed out, were it not for that funding, the bus industry would have gone to the wall. That's on top of the £90 million we already spend annually in bus services provision, but that isn't enough to have the sort of bus service we want to see and that is seen on the continent. That is one of the reasons why we brought in the road review. And I realise not all Members have supported that, but the reason for doing that is we want to free up funding to put investment, to prioritise investment, in public transport. And, as I say gently, if I might, to Members across the Chamber, it is no good supporting high-level commitments to climate change if you're not prepared to follow through the necessary actions to make those commitments a reality. Shifting money away from road building towards better public transport is an absolute must if all the sentiments we've heard in this debate today are going to be translated into a properly functioning bus system. So, I hope Members will reflect on that. Natasha Asghar said it's been seven months since the road review and we can't sit around. Well, she may be sitting around, Dirprwy Lywydd, but I'm certainly not and the board of the roads review panel certainly are not, because they are meeting regularly and they're taking the task intensely. They're about to publish an interim report and a full report by the summer, so they are working at pace. Peter Fox made the point about a joined-up approach to bus services, and I was pleased to meet with Councillor Richard John, the leader of Monmouthshire, on Monday to talk about the particular plight of Monmouthshire, which is not well served by public transport - his successor - to understand the concerns that they have. And I do think - . I agree with his challenge that regional transport plans through the corporate joint committees have got a vital role to play in making the franchising system work. I do believe, Dirprwy Lywydd, I've come to the end of my time, but I just want to repeat my thanks to all Members for agreeing on what the problem is. Now I think the challenge for us all is to come together to figure out the solution. Diolch.
Welsh: Gofynnodd James Evans, yn ei ymyriad ar Hefin David, ac yn ei gyfraniad gwreiddiol: pam na wnaeth y Llywodraeth Lafur ar ddiwedd y 1990au gael gwared ar y system dameidiog? Credaf fod yr hyn a wnaethant yn ymgais wirioneddol i ddefnyddio dull partneriaeth gyda gweithredwyr i ddatblygu ffordd wahanol o'i wneud. Ond rwy'n credu y gallwn ddweud nad yw dull partneriaeth wedi gweithio. Gallwn weld yn awr ym Manceinion, bedair blynedd ar ôl cyflwyno system masnachfraint partneriaeth, eu bod yn dal i fethu rhoi gwynt o dan ei hadain. Felly, rwy'n credu ei bod yn gwbl briodol inni ddweud ein bod wedi rhoi cynnig ar ddulliau gwahanol i gyflawni amcan a rennir, ac rydym yn dysgu drwy'r amser am yr hyn sy'n gweithio a'r hyn nad yw'n gweithio. Ac yn amlwg, mae budd i'r sector masnachol a breifateiddiwyd o danseilio rhai o'r cynlluniau hyn - gadewch inni fod yn glir am hynny. Yn aml, daw gweithredwyr preifat ag achos cyfreithiol yn erbyn ymdrechion i wneud hyn. Maent yn aml yn lobïo a llunnir cynlluniau amrywiol i awgrymu nad oes angen masnachfreinio'n briodol gan y gall partneriaethau weithio, ac nid wyf yn credu mai dyna'r ffordd y dylem fynd o'i chwmpas. Dyna'r hyn rydym yn ei wneud yn y Llywodraeth hon sy'n wahanol i'r hyn a fu o'r blaen: edrych ar fodel cyfandirol o fwrdd goruchwylio yn hytrach na bwrdd partneriaeth lleol, dull Cymru gyfan, gyda Trafnidiaeth Cymru yn ganolog iddo, ond gan weithio'n iawn drwy'r gwahanol rannau o lywodraeth leol, lefel y cyngor sir, lefel y cyd-bwyllgor corfforaethol, Llywodraeth Cymru a Trafnidiaeth Cymru, i geisio llunio system rhyngom sy'n mynd i weithio, sy'n mynd i ganiatáu masnachfreinio ar sail ardal gyfan. Oherwydd y system bresennol sydd wedi'i phreifateiddio yw gwraidd y broblem mewn gwirionedd, a dyna lle rwy'n cytuno â'r gwelliant. Yn amlwg, mae Gweinidogion y Llywodraeth yn draddodiadol, yn y dadleuon hyn, yn ymatal ar y cynigion, am mai cynigion y meinciau cefn ydynt, a byddwn yn parhau â'r traddodiad hwnnw heddiw. Ond rydym yn sicr yn cefnogi ysbryd yr hyn y dadleuir yn ei gylch y prynhawn yma, ac mae angen inni newid i sylfaen fwy cydlynol sydd wedi'i chynllunio'n well. Nawr, fel y dywedodd Carolyn Thomas yn ei chyfraniad, a oedd yn bwerus iawn yn fy marn i, anaml iawn y mae gwasanaethau bws gwledig yn gwneud arian, ond maent yn achubiaeth. Ac mae hynny'n gwbl gywir. A soniodd am enghraifft o weithredwr yn rhoi'r gorau i lwybr ac yna'n mynnu cymhorthdal 10 gwaith yn fwy nag a roddwyd yn flaenorol, a dengys hynny sut y mae gweithredwyr masnachol yn chwarae'r system, a dyna sy'n digwydd mewn marchnad onid e? Ac nid wyf yn beirniadu'r gweithredwyr unigol wrth ddweud hynny; dyna y mae'r farchnad yno i'w wneud. Ond fel y dywedodd Hefin David yn ei gyfraniad da, mae methiant amlwg yn y farchnad, oherwydd nid yw'r farchnad yn gwasanaethu budd y cyhoedd. Felly, yr hyn a welwn yn aml yw gweithredwyr yn cystadlu am nifer fach o lwybrau proffidiol ac yna'n peidio â rhedeg llwybrau sy'n angenrheidiol yn gymdeithasol. Nawr, roedd yna adeg pan oedd digon o arian cyhoeddus i allu cynnig cymorthdaliadau ar gyfer y llwybrau hyn sy'n angenrheidiol yn gymdeithasol, ond ar ôl 10 mlynedd o gyni, nid yw'r cyllid disgresiynol hwnnw yno. Ac yn aml, rwy'n credu - . Rydym wedi gweld Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr, sydd â gwasanaethau masnachol yn unig bellach; nid oes cyllid ar gael ar gyfer rhoi cymhorthdal i lwybrau, ac mae hynny wedi'i adlewyrchu yn natur y rhwydwaith bysiau sydd ar ôl yn yr ardal honno erbyn hyn. Nid ydym eisiau gweld hynny. Rydym eisiau gweld gwasanaeth bws rheolaidd a dibynadwy, fel y gallwn weld mewn llawer o systemau trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus sy'n gweithio i'n cymdogion agos. Sylwaf ar yr hyn a ddywedodd Sam Kurtz am enghraifft o weithiwr rhan amser yn ceisio dychwelyd adref o shifft hwyr yn Ninbych-y-pysgod lle nad yw'r system yn ddigon da ar hyn o bryd. Rydym angen iddi fod yn ddibynadwy, rydym angen iddi fod yn rheolaidd, ac rydym angen iddi fod yn fforddiadwy. A wyddoch chi beth? Mae'n gwbl bosibl. Ceffyl da yw ewyllys. Nid yw hyn yn rhy gymhleth i'w wneud; ond nid ydym wedi bod yn barod i wario'r arian angenrheidiol, na rhoi'r strwythur rheoleiddio cywir ar waith er mwyn gwneud iddo ddigwydd, a dyna rydym eisiau ei wneud. Ac rwy'n credu mai dyma lle daw'r ffocws penodol ar ardaloedd gwledig i mewn iddi, oherwydd mae llawer o'r hyn rydym wedi'i ddisgrifio yn berthnasol i bob rhan o Gymru. Mewn ardaloedd gwledig, mae yna gyfres ychwanegol o heriau. Nawr, gallwch gael system drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus gwbl weithredol mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Os edrychwch ar yr Almaen wledig, neu'r Swistir wledig, sydd yr un mor denau ei phoblogaeth, os nad yn fwy tenau, â rhannau o gefn gwlad Cymru, mae ganddynt bentrefi yno, pentrefi bach, gyda gwasanaeth rheolaidd bob awr, am mai dyna maent wedi ei flaenoriaethu, a dyna maent wedi'i wneud yn eu systemau masnachfraint, lle maent yn defnyddio gwasanaethau gwneud elw mewn trefi i draws-sybsideiddio gwasanaethau sy'n gwneud colled mewn ardaloedd gwledig, gan gydnabod bod angen cymdeithasol yma. Credaf fod yr achos dros system fysiau briodol yn ymwneud lawn cymaint â chyfiawnder cymdeithasol ag y mae'n ymwneud â mynd i'r afael â newid hinsawdd. Ac rwy'n teimlo'n angerddol am hynny, fel Aelodau eraill, yn wir, ar draws y rhaniad. Felly, gadewch inni weithio gyda'n gilydd i feddwl am rywbeth a fydd yn sefyll prawf amser. Felly, byddwn yn cyflwyno Papur Gwyn, ac fel y dywedais, rydym yn ymgynghori ag awdurdodau lleol ar hyn o bryd, a phan gaiff hwnnw ei gyflwyno i'r Senedd, gadewch inni weithio gyda'n gilydd ar sail drawsbleidiol i weld a allwn ei gryfhau a sicrhau ei fod yn addas i'r diben. A byddaf yn sicr yn addo gwrando er mwyn gweithio gyda chi i weld a ellir ei wneud hyd yn oed yn gryfach. Felly, gallaf sicrhau'r Aelodau ein bod o ddifrif ynglŷn â hyn, rydym yn ei drin gyda'r brys mwyaf, ond rydym eisiau ei gael yn iawn. Nawr, gwnaeth Natasha Asghar y ddadl nad oes digon o arian ar gyfer bysiau, ac mae'n sicr yn wir, er ein bod yn rhoi swm sylweddol o arian - . Yn ystod y 15 mis diwethaf, rydym wedi blaenoriaethu mwy na £108 miliwn i gefnogi'r diwydiant bysiau drwy COVID. Fel y nododd Hefin a Jack Sargeant yn gywir, oni bai am y cyllid hwnnw, byddai'r diwydiant bysiau wedi mynd i'r wal. Mae hynny ar ben y £90 miliwn rydym eisoes yn ei wario'n flynyddol ar ddarparu gwasanaethau bysiau, ond nid yw hynny'n ddigon i gael y math o wasanaeth bws rydym ei eisiau a'r math a welir ar y cyfandir. Dyna un o'r rhesymau pam y gwnaethom gyflwyno'r adolygiad ffyrdd. Ac rwy'n sylweddoli nad yw pob Aelod wedi cefnogi hwnnw, ond y rheswm dros wneud hynny yw oherwydd ein bod eisiau rhyddhau cyllid i wneud buddsoddiad, i flaenoriaethu buddsoddiad, mewn trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus. A hoffwn ddweud mor garedig ag y gallaf wrth Aelodau ar draws y Siambr nad oes pwynt cefnogi ymrwymiadau lefel uchel o ran newid hinsawdd os nad ydych yn barod i ddilyn y camau angenrheidiol i wireddu'r ymrwymiadau hynny. Mae'n rhaid symud arian oddi wrth adeiladu ffyrdd a thuag at wella trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus os yw'r holl deimladau a glywsom yn y ddadl hon heddiw am gael eu trosi'n system fysiau sy'n gweithio'n iawn. Felly, gobeithio y bydd yr Aelodau'n myfyrio ar hynny. Dywedodd Natasha Asghar ei bod wedi bod yn saith mis ers yr adolygiad ffyrdd ac na allwn aros a gwneud dim. Wel, efallai ei bod hi'n aros a gwneud dim, Ddirprwy Lywydd, ond yn sicr nid wyf fi'n gwneud hynny ac nid yw bwrdd y panel adolygu ffyrdd yn gwneud hynny, oherwydd maent yn cyfarfod yn rheolaidd ac maent yn rhoi ystyriaeth ddwys i'r dasg. Maent ar fin cyhoeddi adroddiad dros dro ac adroddiad llawn erbyn yr haf, felly maent yn gweithio'n gyflym. Gwnaeth Peter Fox y pwynt am ddull cydgysylltiedig o ymdrin â gwasanaethau bysiau, ac roeddwn yn falch o gyfarfod â'r Cynghorydd Richard John, arweinydd Sir Fynwy, ddydd Llun i siarad am drafferthion penodol Sir Fynwy, nad yw'n cael ei gwasanaethu'n dda gan drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus - ei olynydd ef - i ddeall y pryderon sydd ganddynt. Ac rwy'n credu - . Rwy'n cytuno â'i her fod gan gynlluniau trafnidiaeth rhanbarthol, drwy'r cyd-bwyllgorau corfforaethol, rôl hanfodol i'w chwarae yn gwneud i'r system fasnachfreinio weithio. Ddirprwy Lywydd, rwy'n credu bod fy amser wedi dirwyn i ben, ond hoffwn ailadrodd fy niolch i'r holl Aelodau am gytuno ar beth yw'r broblem. Nawr, rwy'n credu mai'r her i bob un ohonom yw dod at ein gilydd i ganfod yr ateb. Diolch.