techiaith/cofnodycynulliad_en-cy huggingface dataset:
English: Again, in Welsh. I'll make one comment to add to what colleagues have already said in terms of costs and how difficult it is to develop in rural areas within the housing associations and within these communities. Housing associations are well placed to assist in this field and are used to developing in the face of these challenges. But what we need to coincide with the intervention that is provided through Simon Brooks's report is an acknowledgement that the costs, as Shan has mentioned, are higher, but that the framework where the resources or the support is available through the Government and that that is administered is sufficiently flexible to be able to provide the same level of priority to a development in rural areas as one would give to a development in an urban area. There is no doubt that development in an urban area is easier, is more efficient, financially, than it is in a rural area, but you have to strike the same balance and give the same priority to both. If that support isn't available and the flexibility isn't available in terms of allocating funding and support to rural areas, then the urban areas will be given greater priority, and that isn't going to help the case that we're discussing this morning.
Welsh: Jest, eto, yn y Gymraeg. Jest un sylw i ychwanegu at beth mae pobl wedi'i ddweud yn barod a pha mor anodd ydy o i ddatblygu mewn meysydd gwledig o fewn y cymdeithasau tai ac o fewn y cymunedau yma. Mae'r cymdeithasau tai yn well placed i helpu yn y maes yma ac wedi arfer datblygu o fewn y fath heriau. Ond beth sydd ei angen i gydredeg efo'r ymyrraeth sy'n cael ei gynnig drwy adroddiad Simon Brooks ydy cydnabyddiaeth bod y costau, fel mae Shan wedi sôn, yn uwch, ond bod y fframwaith lle mae'r adnoddau neu'r gefnogaeth drwy'r Llywodraeth yn cael ei weinyddu yn ddigon hyblyg i fod yn gallu rhoi'r un lefel o flaenoriaeth i ddatblygiad mewn maes gwledig a fyddai rhywun yn rhoi i ddatblygiad mewn lle trefol. Does yna ddim amheuaeth bod datblygu mewn maes trefol yn haws ac yn fwy effeithlon yn ariannol nag ydy o mewn maes gwledig, ond mae'n rhaid cael yr un un cydbwysedd i'r ddau. Os nad ydy'r gefnogaeth yna, ar hyblygrwydd yna yn bodoli, o ran didoli'r arian a'r gefnogaeth i feysydd gwledig, yna mi gaiff y meysydd trefol fwy o flaenoriaeth, a dydy hynny ddim yn mynd i helpu'r achos dŷn ni'n ei drafod y bore yma.
English: Good morning, and thank you very much for joining us this morning and providing your expertise. I'm very grateful to you. I understand that we do have a technical problem, so I will ask my question in English.
Welsh: Helo, bore da. Diolch yn fawr iawn ichi am ddod y bore yma a rhoi eich arbenigedd. Dwi'n ddiolchgar iawn ichi. Dwi'n deall bod yna broblem dechnegol, ac felly byddaf i'n holi fy nghwestiwn yn Saesneg.
English: As a rural housing enabler who deals with individuals on behalf of various organisations, over lockdown there were a number of cases where landlords, unfortunately, saw that house prices were increasing, and they would give notice to some of their tenants - they would give six months' notice - because the prices were going up and they saw more profit in selling up, but also where some of the landlords were turning their houses into Airbnbs because they could generate more income than they could through rent. And then that put pressure on local housing waiting lists. I think there are some 1,500 in Ceredigion at the moment on the list, and there aren't enough homes available for those people. You're talking about families, Welsh-speaking families, families that consider themselves to be Welsh, and, of course there is concern there in terms of statistics from the ONS at the start of this week, I think, that the people who consider themselves to be Welsh in Ceredigion at the moment is down to 52 per cent, and that is the picture across the country. So, there are a number of pressures involved on us as housing associations in providing more stock.
Welsh: Fel hwylusydd tai gwledig sy'n deilio ag unigolion hefyd o ran gwahanol fudiadau, dros y cyfnod clo, roedd yna sawl achos ble roedd landlordiaid, yn anffodus, yn gweld efallai fod prisiau tai yn cynyddu, a'u bod nhw'n rhoi rhybudd i symud allan i rai o'r tenantiaid o chwe mis, achos roedd y prisiau yn mynd lan a'u bod nhw'n gweld bod mwy o arian yn cael ei wneud fel hynny, ond hefyd ble roedd rhai o'r landlordiaid yn troi eu tai mewn i Airbnb, achos eu bod nhw'n gallu cael mwy o ran incwm fel hynny na beth oedden nhw'n gallu ei gael fel rhent. Wrth gwrs, mae hynny wedyn yn rhoi pwysau ar y cofrestrau tai yn lleol. Ar hyn o bryd, rŷn ni dros ryw 1,500, rwy'n credu, yng Ngheredigion, a does dim digon o dai i'w cael yna i alluogi'r bobl yna i symud mewn iddyn nhw. Rŷch chi'n siarad am deuluoedd, teuluoedd Cymraeg, teuluoedd sydd yn cyfrif eu hunain yn Gymry, ac, wrth gwrs, mae gofid fanna hefyd o ran ystadegau'r ONS, dechrau'r wythnos, dwi'n credu, fod pobl sy'n cyfrif eu hunain fel Cymry yng Ngheredigion ar hyn o bryd wedi mynd i lawr i 52 y cant, ac mae hwnna'n bictiwr ar draws yr holl wlad. Felly, mae sawl pwysau yn dod mewn arnom ni fel cymdeithasau tai er mwyn galluogi bod mwy o stoc ar gael.
English: Thank you. Yes, affordability: affordability of rent, affordability in terms of purchasing homes, a lack of homes on the market - the fact that, when homes go on the market the 'sold' sign goes up within a few hours now - an increase in the numbers of Airbnb accommodation and so on. We have statistics here. For example, 95 per cent of the local population in Abersoch have been priced out of the market in terms of purchasing a house, and 114 Airbnbs are located in that village. In Morfa Nefyn, 67.9 per cent have been priced out of the market. There is a lack of rental properties in the open market too. We've undertaken many surveys through the rural enablers team, and there are no homes for rent available now. There's a great deal of pressure and demand for social rental properties, and statistics are available, I'm sure, from local authorities in terms of how many people are waiting for those. And of course, it's not just this crisis that we're facing in rural areas - there's also a crisis of a lack of places for key workers to be working and living locally, and that then leads to greater pressure on social services and health services. There is nowhere for these individuals to live locally. Thank you.
Welsh: Diolch. Ie, fforddiadwyedd: fforddiadwyedd rhentu, fforddiadwyedd prynu tai, diffyg tai ar y farchnad - munud mae yna dai yn mynd ar werth, wel, mae'r arwydd 'gwerthwyd' wedi mynd arnyn nhw bron o fewn ychydig o oriau erbyn hyn - cynnydd mewn niferoedd lleteiau Airbnb, ac yn y blaen. Mae gennym ni ystadegau fan hyn. Er enghraifft, mae 95 y cant o boblogaeth leol Abersoch wedi cael eu prisio allan o'r farchnad prynu tai, ac mae yna 114 o Airbnbs jest yn y pentref yna. Llefydd wedyn fel Morfa Nefyn, mae 67.9 y cant wedi cael eu prisio allan o'r farchnad. Mae yna ddiffyg tai ar gyfer rhent yn y farchnad agored hefyd. Rydyn ni wedi gwneud nifer o astudiaethau yn ddiweddar trwy'r tîm hwyluswyr tai gwledig, a does yna ddim tai i'w rhentu hyd yn oed i'w cael rŵan. Mae yna andros o lot o bwysau a galw am dai rhent cymdeithasol, ac mae ystadegau ar gael, dwi'n siŵr, gan yr awdurdodau lleol o faint o bobl sydd yn aros yn fanna. Ac wrth gwrs, nid yn unig yr argyfwng yma sydd gennym ni yn y cefn gwlad, ond mae gennym ni argyfwng hefyd o ddiffyg llefydd i bobl, gweithwyr allweddol, fod yn byw yn lleol, ac mae hynna wedyn yn arwain at fwy o bwysau ar wasanaethau cymdeithasol a hefyd iechyd. Does yna nunlle i'r unigolion yma fyw yn lleol. Diolch.
English: Thank you very much for those responses. It's heartbreaking to hear some communities that I represent being named there, and I'm fully aware of those concerns. So, thank you for that.
Welsh: Diolch yn fawr iawn am yr atebion yna. Mae'n boen calon clywed rhai cymunedau dwi'n eu cynrychioli yn cael eu henwi fanna, ac dwi'n llawn ymwybodol o'r pryderon yno. Diolch.
English: If I could start just by saying that I think we need a national framework, but one size isn't going to fit every situation, because the communities, and the problems that they face, do vary on the issue of second homes. So, I think what I would recommend is that there should be sufficient flexibility within the national general framework that would allow policy decisions, for example in planning, in terms of allowing certain numbers of second homes and so on, that those decisions should permeate down to a more community level, because, in so doing, then I think that one does respond more effectively to the issue. There's always a risk that, if a national policy were to be administered in isolation, those who are implementing that policy are too far away from the issue that they're trying to deal with, and I think there are dangers implicit in that. Having said that, specifically on planning, by providing additional flexibility in going to a more community granularity, what we don't want is that the decision process takes longer or is more bureaucratic than it is now as a result of that, because the current planning regime causes problems in terms of the pace of decision making around developments and so on. Thank you.
Welsh: Mi wnaf i gychwyn y drafodaeth jest drwy ddweud, dwi'n meddwl, fod angen fframwaith cenedlaethol, ond dydy un seis ddim yn mynd i ffitio bob sefyllfa, achos mae'r cymunedau, a'r problemau maen nhw'n eu gwynebu, yn amrywio o gwmpas y pwnc o ail dai. So, dwi'n meddwl beth y buaswn i'n ei argymell ydy bod yna ddigon o hyblygrwydd o fewn y fframwaith cyffredinol cenedlaethol sy'n caniatau i benderfyniadau polisi, er enghraifft yn y maes cynllunio, o ran caniatau nifer yr ail gartrefi ac yn y blaen, fod y penderfyniadau yn ymgreiddio lawr i lefel mwy cymunedol, achos, drwy wneud hynny, dwi'n meddwl bod rhywun yn ymateb i'r mater yn well. Mae yna wastad perig, pe bai polisi cenedlaethol yn unig yn cael ei weinyddu, fod y sawl sy'n ei weinyddu fo yn rhy bell oddi wrth yr issue maen nhw'n trio'i ddatrys, a dwi'n meddwl buasai hynny'n beth perig iawn i wneud. Wedi dweud hyn, yn benodol o gwmpas y maes cynllunio, drwy roi haen ychwanegol hyblyg o fynd i granularity mwy cymunedol, beth dŷn ni ddim eisiau chwaith, wrth gwrs, ydy bod y broses o benderfynu yn cymryd yn hirach neu'n fwy biwrocrataidd nag ydy o rŵan felly, achos mae'r drefn cynllunio bresennol yn creu trafferthion o ran y cyflymder o gael penderyfniadau o gwmpas datblygiadau ac yn y blaen. Diolch.
English: We have an opportunity here, through the Dwyfor pilot, to see what we can do by working with the local authority, the national park and the housing associations, and the Welsh Government, so that we can try different things, and then challenge the policies already in place too, ensuring that we make the most of what we have already. We can't wait for various policies to be drawn up. We need to go with what we have at the moment, and identify the problems and see what we need in place. But there are certain things, such as national planning policy, that do need to be put in place in order to deal with this problem, this rural housing crisis that we're facing.
Welsh: Mae gennym ni gyfle fan hyn, onid oes, drwy'r cynllun peilot yn Nwyfor, i weld beth fedrwn ni wneud drwy weithio efo'r awdurdod lleol, y parc cenedlaethol a'r cymdeithasau tai, a Llywodraeth Cymru, i ni drio gwahanol bethau, ac, efallai, mynd â'r polisïau sydd gennym ni'n barod - herio ychydig bach ar y rheini hefyd, gwneud yn siwr ein bod ni'n cael y mwyaf allan o beth sy'n bodoli'n barod. Fedrwn ni ddim aros yn hir i wahanol bolisïau ac ati gael eu creu - polisïau o'r newydd. Rhaid inni fynd efo beth sydd gennym ni rwan, ac adnabod beth ydy'r problemau a gweld beth sydd angen mewn lle. Ond mae yna rai pethau, fel polisi cynllunio cenedlaethol ac ati, sydd angen cael eu rhoi mewn lle ar gyfer hwyluso'r broblem yma sydd gyda ni, yr argyfwng tai gwledig.
English: I would agree with those comments. Just to respond to the Member specifically in terms of the number of strategies and so on, I think what the interventions that are on the table, potentially, will allow, hopefully is the slowing down of the increase in second homes, which adds to this acute problem that creates a problem for our communities. So, I do welcome those interventions, but as I said at the beginning, they do need to align so that they are not disjointed and that they dovetail with our other strategies. I referred to the economic and community support strategy at the beginning, but, as Shan said, there is an opportunity to ensure that all of these strategies are co-ordinated, and that they're not disjointed. Because sometimes, these strategies are drawn up, without being critical of the process and those who authored them, but they're produced in isolation to respond to what is in front of them at the time, and sometimes one doesn't take an overview to see how these strategies align. And as Shan says, perhaps this pilot gives us the opportunity to get into that helicopter to take that overview to see what we can do with the additional intervention that is being proposed.
Welsh: Buaswn i'n cytuno efo'r sylwadau yna. Jest i ymateb i'r Aelod yn benodol o ran nifer y strategaethau, dwi'n meddwl beth mae'r ymyraethau sydd ar y bwrdd rwan, o bosib, yn mynd i ganiatáu gobeithio ydy arafu'r cynnydd yn nifer yr ail dai sy'n ychwanegu at y broblem ddwys sy'n creu problem i'n cymunedau ni. So, dwi'n croesawu y rheini, ond fel roeddwn i'n dweud ar y cychwyn, mae angen iddyn nhw gydredeg, fel eu bod nhw ddim yn disjointed yn eu hunain a'u bod nhw'n plethu i mewn i strategaethau eraill. Ac mi wnes i gyfeirio at yr un economi a chynnal cymunedau'n benodol ar y cychwyn, ond, hwyrach, fel y mae Shan yn dweud, mae yna gyfle i wneud yn siŵr bod y strategaethau yma i gyd yn cydlynu, a'u bod nhw'n co-ordinated a'u bod nhw ddim yn disjointed. Achos weithiau, mae'r strategaethau yma'n cael eu llunio, heb fod y feirniadol wrth gwrs o'r sawl sydd yn eu hawduro nhw, ond maen nhw weithiau yn cael eu cynhyrchu mewn isolation i ymateb i beth sydd o'u blaenau nhw ar y pryd, ac weithiau dydy rhywun ddim yn cymryd trosolwg i weld sut mae'r strategaethau yma'n plethu mewn efo'i gilydd. Ac fel mae Shan yn dweud, mae'r peilot yma hwyrach yn rhoi'r cyfle i ni fod mewn hofrennydd a sbio ar draws hyn i gyd a gweld be fedrwn ni wneud efo'r rheini, efo'r ymyrraeth ychwanegol sy'n cael ei gynnig.
English: In a way, we touched on taxation there. Of course, what happens often too, not simply in terms land transaction tax, is that people change homes from residential accommodation into something like an Airbnb or holiday accommodation, and then they get small business tax relief. That has often happened, and then they pay no council tax - it's registered as a business, and then they have to show that the home is let as a holiday home for so many days a year. I think it's positive in terms of availability of housing that in April they will increase the number of days that the homes have to be available for let, and how much time a house is occupied. That might help the situation, because I know that every council, if a house applies for small business rate relief, has to repay funds, which puts more pressure on council coffers. That also touches on taxation.
Welsh: Mewn ffordd, rŷn ni'n cyffwrdd â threthi yn fanna. Wrth gwrs, beth sy'n digwydd yn aml hefyd, dim gymaint o ran y dreth o ran gwerthu, yw bod pobl yn newid tai o dŷ preswyl i rywbeth fel Airbnb neu i dai gwyliau, ac maen nhw wedyn yn cael ad-daliad treth, neu small business tax relief. Mae hynny wedi digwydd yn aml, wrth gwrs, a wedyn dydyn nhw ddim yn talu dim treth cyngor - mae'n cael ei newid mewn i fusnes, ac maen nhw'n gorfod dangos bod y tŷ yn cael ei osod am wyliau am hyn a hyn o ddiwrnodau. Rwy'n credu ei bod hi'n rhywbeth positif o ran argaledd tai ym mis Ebrill, pan mae'n symud o ran faint o ddiwrnodau mae'r tai yn gorfod bod ar gael i'w gosod, ac hefyd faint o amser mae tai yn cael rhywun i mewn ynddyn nhw. Efallai bydd hynny'n helpu'r sefyllfa, achos mae pob cyngor ar hyn o bryd, os yw'r tŷ yn newid i small business tax relief, yn gorfod ad-dalu y dreth maen nhw wedi chael ers saith mlynedd, sydd, wrth gwrs, yn rhoi mwy o bwysau eto ar goffrau cynghorau sir. Mae hynny hefyd yn cyffwrdd o ran trethi.
English: Anecdotally, I wouldn't see that happening in the area that I work within, Ceredigion primarily. Homes are still being retained as residential properties by landlords, other than when they see that they can sell for a better price, and where they perhaps do turn into Airbnb accommodation. I see where you're coming from that people see these challenges, but of course, as housing associations - Shan and Ffrancon would endorse this as well - we have a structure to go through to ensure that houses reach a particular standard so that our tenants are safe. I think that's vitally important, particularly with regard to the current situation with energy prices. Some of the homes being built at the moment are up to a particularly high standard in terms of construction. You're looking at these passive house standards, for example, and zero carbon. Tenants pay a fair rent that enables them to live in a safe home, and we need to ensure that landlords - . I know that Douglas has talked several times that some do go out of the market because they see that, perhaps, some of the homes aren't appropriate for rental. But again, perhaps there's support available through county councils and the Government to ensure that that can happen.
Welsh: Anecdotally, fuaswn i ddim yn gweld hynny'n digwydd yn yr ardal dwi'n gweithio ynddi, sef Ceredigion yn bennaf. Mae tai dal yn cael eu cadw fel tai preswyl gyda landlordiaid, heblaw ble maen nhw'n gweld ble maen nhw'n gallu gwerthu am well pris, a hefyd ble maen nhw'n troi, efallai, i mewn i Airbnb. Rwy'n gweld o ble rŷch chi'n dod bod pobl yn gweld yr heriau yma, ond wrth gwrs, fel cymdeithasau tai - byddai Shan a Ffrancon yn ategu hyn hefyd - mae gennym ni strwythur i fynd trwyddo i sicrhau bod y tai o safon er mwyn bod ein tenantiaid yn ddiogel. Rwy'n credu bod hynny'n hollbwysig, yn enwedig fel mae'r sefyllfa ar hyn o bryd o ran cost ynni, ac yn y blaen, yn mynd i fyny. Mae rhai o'r tai sy'n cael eu hadeiladu ar hyn o bryd lan i safon mor uchel o ran adeiladwaith, rydych chi'n edrych ar ryw fath o dai pasif passive house, yn enwedig gyda dim carbon hefyd. Mae'n tenantiaid yn talu rhent teg sydd yn eu galluogi nhw i fyw mewn cartref diogel, felly mae eisiau inni sicrhau bod landlordiaid hefyd - . Mae Douglas wed sôn sawl gwaith bod rhai yn mynd allan o'r farchnad achos eu bod nhw'n gweld, efallai, bod rhai o'r tai ddim yn addas i'w rhentu. Ond eto, efallai bod cefnogaeth ar gael trwy'r cynghorau sir a'r Llywodraeth er mwyn sicrhau bod hynny yn gallu digwydd.
English: Moving on from what Karen has just said: empty homes, empty properties, are a resource that we should be making much more use of. If there are 14 empty homes in Penmachno, we need to try to find out what the reasons are why they're empty, what we can do working with the local community to solve that problem. There is huge potential there for 14 homes for individuals and families, isn't there?
Welsh: Wel, symud ymlaen o beth mae Karen newydd ei ddweud rŵan: mae cartrefi gwag, neu dai gwag, yn adnodd dylen ni fod yn gwneud llawer mwy amdano fo. Os oes yna 14 o rai gwag ym Mhenmachno, mae eisiau trio ffeindio allan beth ydy'r rhesymau pam eu bod nhw'n wag, beth fedrwn ni wneud wrth weithio efo'r gymuned leol er mwyn datrys y broblem yna. Mae yna botensial yn y fan yno i 14 o gartrefi i unigolion a theuluoedd, onid oes?
English: Thank you. We are aware of Rent Smart Wales, of course, and that's been run at a national level, and it's worked well, as far as I'm concerned, at least. But we do need far more resources locally then in order to ensure that it does work properly. You need to police it, if you like, and ensure that the standards are being met in terms of the housing provided. And also you need to ensure that the scheme is being implemented properly. I am aware, having spoken to those in charge of housing in local authorities, that those resources aren't available at the moment, so we would need that additional capacity to run such a programme. But I would certainly welcome such a programme.
Welsh: Diolch. Rydyn ni'n ymwybodol o Rhentu Doeth Cymru, Rent Smart Wales, ac mae hwnnw wedi cael ei redeg yn genedlaethol. Mae o wedi gweithio'n dda, cyn belled â dwi'n y cwestiwn, beth bynnag, ond mae yna angen llawer mwy o adnoddau yn lleol wedyn ar gyfer sicrhau bod o'n gweithio'n iawn. Plismona, os liciwch chi, a sicrhau bod y tai i fyny i safonau. A hefyd mae eisiau gwneud yn siŵr bod y cynllun yn cael ei weithredu. A dwi'n ymwybodol wrth siarad efo penaethiaid tai mewn awdurdodau lleol bod yr adnoddau yna ddim ar gael ar hyn o bryd, wedyn mi fyddai angen y capasiti ychwanegol ar gyfer rhedeg cynllun o'r fath. Ond mi fuaswn i yn croesawu cynllun o'r fath.
English: If I may endorse both points that have been made. There's the Welsh Cladiators and there have been a few letters, if I remember rightly, on this issue, which is clearly a very important issue and an issue that is urgent certainly for those individuals. I was wondering what the system is. I know that we'll discuss it in a few moments, but can we consider perhaps some sort of task and finish group to specifically look at this issue, accepting that there's a lot of other work ongoing, but could we have specific sessions on this particular issue, please?
Welsh: Os caf i ategu'r ddau bwynt sydd wedi cael eu gwneud. Mae'r Welsh Cladiators ac mae yna ambell i lythyr wedi dod i mewn, o gof, ar y mater yma, sydd yn amlwg yn fater o bwys ac yn fater sydd yn pwyso ar yr unigolion hynny ar fyrder. Meddwl oeddwn i beth ydy'r drefn. Dwi'n gwybod y byddwn ni'n ei drafod e mewn munud, ond a ydyn ni'n medru ystyried y syniad o ryw fath o task and finish group neu rywbeth yn benodol i edrych ar y mater yma, gan gymryd bod yna lot o waith arall yn mynd ymlaen, ond, rhyw sesiynau penodol ar y mater, os gwelwch yn dda?
English: Good afternoon, and welcome to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in a hybrid format, with some Members in the Chamber and others joining by video-conference. All Members participating in proceedings of the Senedd, wherever they may be, will be treated equally. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and those are set out on the agenda.
Welsh: Prynhawn da, bawb, a chroeso i'r Cyfarfod Llawn. Cyn inni ddechrau, dwi angen nodi ychydig o bwyntiau. Cynhelir y cyfarfod yma ar ffurf hybrid, gyda rhai Aelodau yn y Siambr ac eraill yn ymuno drwy gyswllt fideo. Bydd yr holl Aelodau sy'n cymryd rhan yn y trafodion, ble bynnag y bônt, yn cael eu trin yn gyfartal. Mae Cyfarfod Llawn a gynhelir drwy gynhadledd fideo, yn unol â Rheolau Sefydlog Senedd Cymru, yn gyfystyr â thrafodion y Senedd at ddibenion Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru 2006. Bydd rhai o ddarpariaethau Rheol Sefydlog 34 yn gymwys ar gyfer y cyfarfod yma. Mae'r rheini wedi eu nodi ar yr agenda.
English: The first item today is questions to the Minister for Finance and Local Government. The first question is from Sam Rowlands.
Welsh: Yr eitem gyntaf, felly, yw'r cwestiynau i'r Gweinidog Cyllid a Llywodraeth Leol. Mae'r cwestiwn cyntaf gan Sam Rowlands.