English: I am very pleased to support this debate, and I thank Rhun ap Iorwerth for bringing it forward. It is an issue that is very important to many of my constituents, including people who I socialise with. Lots of people are not on their - . Like my wife accusing me of being on my smartphone at all times - in fact, many people haven't got a smartphone. Looking at it from the viewpoint of an organisation, what is there to not like about providing online services? It saves processing time, it saves staff, it saves on money, it checks all parts of the form are completed, because if you don't complete a part of the form it gives you a little red dot and it won't let you go on to the next part. I'm sure other people have had that problem, which seems to beset me with most online forms I fill in. It checks all parts of the form are completed, but also makes sure that everything is valid. So, you put your date in in the right format and you can cross-match key fields. It provides a faster response to the individual. What is there not to like? But I think this exemplifies the distance between people and governments and big organisations. And can I just say something that might raise shock horror to a large number of people running large organisations and senior people in a lot of the public sector? Many people do not own a smartphone, an iPad or a computer. Many others, for lots of reasons - some relating to health - are not happy using ICT equipment, even when it has been adapted for a disability. And I know you can get a concept keyboard to put over the top, and I'll tell you what - good luck if you're looking for one. But they're not happy and they like - . There's another group of people who just like talking to people. They like getting on a phone and actually talking to people. That's the second-best means of contacting somebody. The best means of contacting somebody is actually talking to them face-to-face, which used to be a way that you could deal with organisations, which seems to be coming less and less available currently. And Rhun ap Iorwerth mentioned banks. People used to go into the bank to do all sorts of discussions, and it was part of their social lives as well, which is something - . Again, we talked about isolation yesterday - part of the problem of isolation is that people don't have these community meetings in post offices, banks and other places. Let's look at the bus pass renewal application. Both my office staff and staff at local libraries have spent a huge amount of time helping people to apply online. I've also spoken to lots of people who've had to ask children, grandchildren or other relatives to help them or do it for them. Can I give the Welsh Government some credit? Transport for Wales has got a paper-based form as well, and that was available to apply for the new bus pass. It wasn't online only. And can I just say, there's an awful lot of things that I deal with that are online only, or not only online only - 'Please use the app.' That's sort of saying that everybody's got it on their phone. The benefits system is almost wholly online. It is wholly online - the information is provided online or applications have to be online. At a very minimum, a paper-based version of every Welsh and Westminster Government form should be available for people if they want it, and a lot of people feel much happier filling in paper-based forms. Rhun ap Iorwerth started talking about it - can I just also turn to the private sector? There's a financial benefit for us if we deal with utility companies online. They actually give us some money off for having online bills and paying by direct debit and all those things. Of course, we get the benefit, but the reverse is true - there's a financial penalty for not dealing online. That's another one of the many ways where it becomes expensive to be poor, because the people who don't deal online are more likely to be poor than people who have double-fuel, direct debit, online bills, which I'm sure affect most of us in here, but an awful lot of my constituents don't have those things and they're paying a price for that. Finally, I just think every online process should have a paper-based alternative. Some people will want to do it online - I actually prefer doing things online - but many people would like to use a pen and paper. In fact, anybody who's seen my handwriting would realise exactly why I prefer to do it online, but I think it is important that people have the choice and let's see that everybody can have a paper-based alternative and not pay a financial penalty for doing so.
Welsh: Rwy'n falch iawn o gefnogi'r ddadl hon, a diolch i Rhun ap Iorwerth am ei chyflwyno. Mae'n fater sy'n bwysig iawn i lawer o fy etholwyr, gan gynnwys pobl rwy'n cymdeithasu â hwy. Mae llawer o bobl nad ydynt ar eu - . Fel fy ngwraig yn fy nghyhuddo o fod ar fy ffôn clyfar drwy'r amser - yn wir, mae yna lawer o bobl nad oes ganddynt ffôn clyfar. O edrych arno o safbwynt sefydliad, beth sydd o'i le ar ddarparu gwasanaethau ar-lein? Mae'n arbed amser prosesu, mae'n arbed staff, mae'n arbed arian, mae'n gwirio bod pob rhan o'r ffurflen wedi'i llenwi, oherwydd os nad ydych yn llenwi rhan o'r ffurflen mae'n rhoi dot bach coch i chi ac ni fydd yn gadael i chi barhau i'r rhan nesaf. Rwy'n siŵr fod pobl eraill wedi cael y broblem honno, sydd i'w gweld yn fy wynebu gyda'r rhan fwyaf o'r ffurflenni ar-lein rwy'n eu llenwi. Mae'n gwirio bod pob rhan o'r ffurflen wedi'i chwblhau, ond mae hefyd yn sicrhau bod popeth yn ddilys. Felly, rydych yn rhoi eich dyddiad yn y fformat cywir a gallwch groesgyfeirio meysydd allweddol. Mae'n darparu ymateb cyflymach i'r unigolyn. Beth sydd ddim i'w hoffi? Ond rwy'n credu bod hon yn enghraifft o'r pellter rhwng pobl a llywodraethau a sefydliadau mawr. Ac a gaf fi ddweud rhywbeth a allai godi arswyd ar nifer fawr o bobl sy'n rhedeg sefydliadau mawr ac uwch reolwyr mewn llawer o'r sector cyhoeddus? Mae yna lawer o bobl nad ydynt yn berchen ar ffôn clyfar, iPad na chyfrifiadur. Mae llawer o rai eraill, am lawer o resymau - rhai'n ymwneud ag iechyd - nad ydynt yn hapus i ddefnyddio offer TGCh, hyd yn oed pan fydd wedi'i addasu ar gyfer anabledd. Ac rwy'n gwybod y gallwch gael cyffyrddell i'w roi ar ei ben, ac fe ddywedaf wrthych chi beth - pob lwc os ydych chi'n chwilio am un. Ond nid ydynt yn hapus ac maent yn hoffi - . Mae yna grŵp arall o bobl sy'n hoffi siarad â phobl. Maent yn hoffi mynd ar ffôn a siarad â phobl. Dyna'r ffordd ail orau o gysylltu â rhywun. Y ffordd orau o gysylltu â rhywun mewn gwirionedd yw siarad â hwy wyneb yn wyneb, a arferai fod yn ffordd o ymdrin â sefydliadau sydd ar gael yn fwyfwy anfynych ar hyn o bryd, mae'n ymddangos. A soniodd Rhun ap Iorwerth am fanciau. Arferai pobl fynd i mewn i'r banc i gael pob math o drafodaethau, ac roedd yn rhan o'u bywydau cymdeithasol hefyd, ac mae hynny'n rhywbeth - . Unwaith eto, soniasom am ynysu ddoe - rhan o broblem ynysu yw nad yw pobl yn cael y cyfarfodydd cymunedol hyn mewn swyddfeydd post, banciau a lleoedd eraill. Gadewch i ni edrych ar y cais i adnewyddu pàs bws. Mae staff fy swyddfa a staff llyfrgelloedd lleol wedi treulio llawer iawn o amser yn helpu pobl i wneud cais ar-lein. Rwyf wedi siarad â llawer o bobl hefyd sydd wedi gorfod gofyn i blant, wyrion neu wyresau neu berthnasau eraill i'w helpu neu i'w wneud ar eu rhan. A gaf fi roi rhywfaint o glod i Lywodraeth Cymru? Mae gan Trafnidiaeth Cymru ffurflen bapur hefyd, ac roedd honno ar gael ar gyfer gwneud cais am y pàs bws newydd. Nid ar-lein yn unig y gellid dod o hyd iddi. Ac a gaf fi ddweud, mae llawer iawn o bethau rwy'n ymdrin â hwy sydd ond i'w cael ar-lein yn unig, neu nid yn unig ar-lein yn unig - 'Defnyddiwch yr ap.' Mewn ffordd, mae hynny'n dweud ei fod gan bawb ar eu ffôn. Mae'r system fudd-daliadau bron yn gyfan gwbl ar-lein. Mae'n gyfan gwbl ar-lein - darperir y wybodaeth ar-lein neu mae'n rhaid i geisiadau fod ar-lein. Fan lleiaf, dylai fersiwn bapur o bob ffurflen Llywodraeth Cymru a Llywodraeth San Steffan fod ar gael i bobl os ydynt am ei chael, ac mae llawer o bobl yn teimlo'n llawer hapusach yn llenwi ffurflenni papur. Dechreuodd Rhun ap Iorwerth siarad amdano - a gaf innau droi hefyd at y sector preifat? Mae budd ariannol i ni os byddwn yn ymdrin â chwmnïau cyfleustodau ar-lein. Maent yn tynnu rhywfaint o arian oddi ar ein biliau am eu cael ar-lein a thalu drwy ddebyd uniongyrchol a'r holl bethau hynny. Wrth gwrs, cawn y budd, ond mae'r gwrthwyneb yn wir - mae cosb ariannol am beidio ag ymdrin â hwy ar-lein. Dyna un arall o'r ffyrdd niferus lle mae'n ddrutach i fod yn dlawd, gan fod y bobl nad ydynt yn ymdrin â chwmnïau ar-lein yn fwy tebygol o fod yn dlawd na phobl sydd â biliau tanwydd dwbl debyd uniongyrchol ar-lein, sef y rhan fwyaf ohonom yma, rwy'n siŵr, ond mae llawer iawn o fy etholwyr heb y pethau hynny ac maent yn talu pris am hynny. Yn olaf, rwy'n meddwl y dylai fod dewis i gael ffurflen bapur ar gyfer pob proses ar-lein. Bydd rhai pobl am ei wneud ar-lein - mae'n well gennyf fi wneud pethau ar-lein - ond byddai llawer o bobl yn hoffi defnyddio beiro a phapur. Yn wir, byddai unrhyw un sydd wedi gweld fy llawysgrifen yn sylweddoli'n union pam ei bod hi'n well gennyf ei wneud ar-lein, ond rwy'n credu ei bod yn bwysig i bobl gael y dewis a gadewch inni sicrhau y gall pawb gael dull papur o'i wneud a pheidio â thalu cosb ariannol am wneud hynny.