English: Before making some remarks or comments about the report by Professor Holtham itself, I'd like to make a few remarks about my experience and my impressions of the care that's provided at present. In my constituency, before Christmas, and at other times of the year, I've seen great care being provided to people in care homes in my constituency by people who are on very low wages, but they do it because they see that role as a calling for them, or a vocation for them. I see a lack of beds locally for people who can't afford to pay for their own care. I see departments of social care in local authorities not being able to pay for the kind of care that they'd like to provide for people across Wales. Somehow we have to aim for the kind of sustainable system that all of us want to see. Yes, the demographics are changing, and the costs are going to rise as we have an older population, but the basic question here is: how can we share that cost across society and ensure that everyone contributes towards that additional cost, rather than leaving the people who can afford to pay for their own care - people who are very fortunate, like the majority of us here in the Assembly - leaving us to pay while leaving other people who can't afford it to hope that a new system is introduced? We have to have a new system, and I'd like to see a different culture. I agree greatly with Jenny Rathbone that we need more of a community flavour to the care that we provide for people, and introduce much more co-operative systems for providing that care in our communities. So, we need a cultural shift, but we also need a policy change as well. I'm very grateful to Professor Holtham for providing his ideas about one model that we could be looking at. We need to think outside the box, because the challenges are going to grow so much in the years to come. I have a number of doubts about the model that he recommends. It's not clear to me whether it's a levy being recommended here to take the place of the costs that people pay for social care at present, or an additional source of funding. If we're talking about introducing a levy and asking people to keep on paying for their own care, well, obviously that's something that we have to realise is a political challenge to have to sell to people. On the other hand, if what we have here is a levy that's supposed to pay for all the costs emanating from the public purse at present, I think possibly there is a lack of clarity regarding the financial figures that are mentioned in the report. He's talking about £550 million as the social care cost - that cost in truth is £750 million, but it just happens that £200 million of that comes in costs from people. So, the figure that is central to this proposal from Professor Holtham is rather unclear. Maybe the Government could explain whether they understand that this is a levy to replace costs or to create an additional fund. Is that what it is? And, the figures relate to social care for people under 65 in this report. There is a lot of demand for care for those who are under 65 - sorry, this report deals with over-65s. There is the issue also of the years that we will be waiting for that fund to pay out. What is the Government's view in terms of how we would pay for care now while we're waiting for that fund to reach the point where it would be able to pay out? Finally, returning to the comments made by Dai Lloyd, it says a lot, I think, that it has taken us decades since we established the NHS for us to reach this point where we think, 'Well, how can we have a care service as well?' And maybe, in all seriousness, what we should be doing is not talking about how we're going to create £400 million annually for social care, but how we can look forward and look ahead to creating billions more for a health and social care service. And the fact that we are discussing the social care element in isolation here shows me that we are much further than we should be away from thinking of an integrated service for the years to come. But, as I said, I'm grateful to have this paper and I'm looking forward to a broader discussion tomorrow in the wake of the Finance Committee's report.
Welsh: Cyn gwneud ychydig o sylwadau am adroddiad yr Athro Holtham ei hun, mi hoffwn innau wneud sylw neu ddau ynglŷn â'm mhrofiad i a rhai o'm hargraffiadau i ynglŷn â'r gofal sy'n cael ei ddarparu ar hyn o bryd. Rydw innau, yn fy etholaeth i, cyn y Nadolig ac ar adegau eraill o'r flwyddyn, wedi gweld gofal annwyl iawn yn cael ei ddarparu i bobl mewn cartrefi gofal yn fy etholaeth i gan bobl sydd ar gyflogau isel iawn, ond eu bod nhw'n gwneud hynny oherwydd eu bod nhw'n gweld y swydd honno fel galwad iddyn nhw. Rydw i'n gweld diffyg gwlâu yn lleol ar gyfer pobl sydd yn methu fforddio talu am eu gofal eu hunain. Rydw i'n gweld adrannau gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn ein hawdurdodau lleol ni yn methu fforddio talu am y math o ofal y bydden nhw'n hoffi ei ddarparu ar gyfer pobl ar hyd a lled Cymru. Rhywsut, mae'n rhaid i, onid oes, anelu am y math o drefn gynaliadwy yma y mae pob un ohonom ni'n dymuno ei gweld. Ydyn, mae demographics yn newid ac mae costau yn mynd i fynd yn uwch wrth i ni gael mwy o boblogaeth hŷn, ond y cwestiwn sylfaenol yn fan hyn ydy: sut ydym ni'n gallu rhannu'r gost honno ar draws y gymdeithas a sicrhau bod pawb yn cyfrannu tuag at y gost ychwanegol yn hytrach na gadael i'r bobl sydd yn gallu fforddio talu am eu gofal eu hunain - pobl ffodus iawn, fel y rhan fwyaf ohonom ni yn y Cynulliad yma - gadael i ni dalu wrth adael i'r bobl eraill sy'n methu fforddio obeithio bod yna ryw drefn newydd yn dod? Mae'n rhaid i ni gael trefn newydd, ac mi hoffwn i weld diwylliant gwahanol. Rwy'n cytuno'n fawr efo Jenny Rathbone fod angen i ni gael gwedd mwy cymunedol, mewn rhyw ffordd, i'r gofal rydym ni'n ei ddarparu ar gyfer pobl a chyflwyno llawer mwy o elfennau o systemau cydweithredol ac ati ar gyfer darparu gofal yn ein cymunedau ni. Felly, mae angen newid diwylliant, ond oes, mae angen newid polisïau hefyd. Rydw i'n ddiolchgar iawn i'r Athro Holtham am ddarparu ei syniadau o ynglŷn ag un model y gallem ni fod yn edrych arno fo. Mae angen meddwl y tu allan i'r bocs oherwydd bod yr heriau yn mynd i fod yn tyfu gymaint mewn blynyddoedd i ddod. Mae gen i nifer o amheuon ynglŷn â'r math o fodel y mae o yn ei argymell. Nid ydy o'n berffaith glir i mi ai lefi sy'n cael ei argymell yma i gymryd lle y costau y mae pobl yn eu talu am ofal cymdeithasol ar hyn o bryd ynteu ffynhonnell ychwanegol o arian. Os mai sôn ydym ni am gyflwyno lefi a gofyn i bobl gario ymlaen i dalu am eu gofal eu hunain, wel, yn amlwg mae hynny yn rhywbeth y mae'n rhaid i ni sylweddoli sy'n her wleidyddol i drio ei gwerthu i bobl. Os, ar y llaw arall, beth sydd yma ydy lefi sydd i fod i dalu am yr holl gostau sy'n dod o'r pwrs cyhoeddus ar hyn o bryd, rydw i'n meddwl o bosib fod yna aneglurder yn y ffigurau ariannol sy'n cael eu crybwyll yn yr adroddiad. Mae'n sôn am £550 miliwn fel cost gofal cymdeithasol - mae'r gost mewn difrif yn £750 miliwn jest ei bod hi'n digwydd bod £200 miliwn o hynny'n dod mewn costau gan bobl. Felly, mae'r ffigur sy'n ganolog i'r cynnig yma gan yr Athro Holtham, i mi, ychydig bach yn aneglur. Felly, o bosib gall y Llywodraeth egluro - a ydych chi'n deall mai lefi i gymryd lle costau neu i greu cronfa ychwanegol ydy hwn? Hefyd, mae'r ffigurau'n ymwneud â gofal cymdeithasol ar gyfer pobl dan 65 oed yn yr adroddiad yma. Mae yna lawer o alw am ofal, wrth gwrs, ar gyfer pobl dan 65 - sori, dros 65 ydy'r adroddiad yma. Mae'r mater hefyd o'r blynyddoedd y byddwn ni'n aros i'r gronfa yma fod yn talu allan. Tybed beth ydy barn y Llywodraeth ynglŷn â sut y byddem ni'n talu am ofal rŵan tra'r ydym ni'n disgwyl i'r gronfa gyrraedd at bwynt lle y byddai'n gallu talu allan. Ond yn olaf, rwy'n meddwl, yn dod yn ôl at sylwadau Dai Lloyd, mae'n dweud llawer rwy'n meddwl ei bod hi wedi cymryd degawdau ers sefydlu y gwasanaeth iechyd i ni ddod at y pwynt yma rŵan lle rydym ni'n meddwl, 'O, sut ydym ni'n gallu cael gwasanaeth gofal hefyd?' Mewn difri, o bosibl, beth ddylem ni fod yn ei wneud go iawn ydy nid sôn am sut rydym ni'n mynd i greu £400 miliwn yn flynyddol ar gyfer gofal cymdeithasol, ond sut rydym ni'n gallu edrych ymlaen at greu biliynau yn rhagor ar gyfer gwasanaeth iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol, ac mae'r ffaith ein bod ni yn trafod yr elfen gofal cymdeithasol yma yn ynysig, ar ei ben ei hun, yn dangos i fi ein bod ni'n llawer pellach nag y dylem ni fod o feddwl am wasanaeth integredig ar gyfer y blynyddoedd i ddod. Ond fel rydw i'n dweud, rydw i'n ddiolchgar am gael y papur yma, ac rydw i'n edrych ymlaen at drafodaeth ehangach yfory yn sgil adroddiad y Pwyllgor Cyllid.