English: Thank you, Llywydd, and I'd like to start by thanking Members for their contributions this afternoon. Today's discussion has helped to continue, if not open, a debate that we do need to have on paying for social care. And our aim in bringing this debate today is twofold: to continue to identify the issues and implications in respect of options for the long-term financing of social care costs and to start to develop a platform from which we can build a wider consensus around a potential solution or solutions. And as I've said, there are no easy answers and there are no quick wins, but I'm heartened today that a number of the views expressed in the debate converge on a consistent drive to address this agenda, because there is a clear need for a nationwide debate on what a high-quality and sustainable social care sector in Wales looks like. And that, of course, means continuing to progress our agenda to integrate health and social care to deliver improved outcomes and experience. All parties in this place were, of course, involved in helping to commission the parliamentary view that we then accepted and built upon, and is central to our 'A Healthier Wales' agenda - the joint long-term plan for health and social care here in Wales. But the debate, moving forward, about social care should rightly include options on finance, including taxation, and we will consider existing research and previous work. And as I said earlier, the debate has to acknowledge the role that local government have because they provide and commission much of the care that we have discussed today. Other providers and people across different parties will also need to be involved, and I do want to highlight that in that conversation with local government, it is taking place across different political leaderships: Conservative-led, Plaid Cymru-led, Independent-led and Welsh Labour-led councils are all part of the discussion that we wish to have, and are having, including with the Association of Directors of Social Services. It takes on board the point that Vikki Howells made - that when you talk to local authority cabinet members and leaders, their No. 1 concern about the future finance is actually about social care and education, the two big blocks of spending, and how they'll manage to maintain spending in this area, not just from a financial point of view but, actually, for the quality of care that they wish to see provided in their local communities. So, we are committed to taking account of new thinking and any creative approaches that exist, particularly as we do develop new models of care - to continue to promote a preventative approach, to make full use of new and existing technology to help people remain as independent and supported in their own communities as possible. And there will of course be questions about how much we expect to raise in new revenue. So, not simply how we use the revenue that we have now but how to raise new revenue and what that would, or should, provide. And there are questions raised and a number of comments about what we are seeking to do. To replace revenue or to raise new revenue? We want more revenue to be available. I'll turn to some of the comments made - I won't be able to address each and every one - but we do have this debate about whether we get stuck into just talking about underfunding vital services. So, I say a £1.2 billion cost is the minimum cost of austerity - just keeping pace with inflation, not keeping up with GDP. We are then blamed by other parties. We respond by saying that in three successive general elections of championing austerity, we won't actually get to address the challenges that we have, either within Wales or the rest of the United Kingdom. There are choices to be made within our budget, and we have made choices, because there is no consequence-free choice to be made. We chose, within a diminishing overall budget, to invest more into our NHS, and that has consequences on every other budget line that we fund. There's no point pretending that that hasn't happened. But for social care, if we cannot generate extra revenue, then we accept that we'll have a diminishing amount and quality of care. So, this isn't simply about raising extra revenue to maintain a service; we want to raise extra revenue to maintain but also to improve a service. So, it's not just about keeping pace with demographic challenge. And our biggest concern, of course, is that social care has always been means-tested, where the NHS, since its creation, has not. And many of our citizens whom we represent are surprised that social care is means-tested - at the point at which they need that social care, they're surprised that they have to go through a form of means test. Now, I recognise what Dai Lloyd said about wanting to have a national care service and the broader point about improving services for the citizen - the citizen who requires dignity in the care that they take part in and receive, but also dignity for the member of staff delivering that care. I was very pleased that, within the debate, a number of Members made the point that they have seen social care taking place, they've visited people and had their own personal experiences, and they're impressed with the quality of care that our staff are providing, and often staff who are not very well paid. For the challenge, I agree, is not simply a question of finance, but we do need to move ahead with new funding models if we are going to meet demographic and quality challenges for the future. As I stated earlier, Llywydd, we will oppose the first Conservative amendment, but support the second. I thank Members for their contributions today and look forward to carrying on this conversation to inform our options to develop the financing of the future costs of social care here in Wales and I genuinely do look forward to being able to do that within my own party, but across different parties and different partners within and outside this place.
Welsh: Diolch, Llywydd, ac fe hoffwn i ddechrau drwy ddiolch i'r Aelodau am eu cyfraniadau y prynhawn yma. Mae trafodaeth heddiw wedi helpu i barhau â dadl, os nad agor dadl y mae angen i ni ei chael ynghylch talu am ofal cymdeithasol. Ac mae ein nod wrth gyflwyno'r ddadl hon heddiw yn ddeublyg: i barhau i nodi'r materion a'r goblygiadau o ran y dewisiadau ar gyfer ariannu costau gofal cymdeithasol yn y tymor hir ac i ddechrau datblygu cyfrwng fydd yn fodd o feithrin consensws ehangach ynghylch ateb neu atebion posib. Ac fel rwyf wedi dweud, nid oes atebion hawdd ac nid oes unrhyw atebion cyflym, ond fe'm calonogir heddiw gan fod nifer o safbwyntiau a fynegwyd yn y ddadl yn cydgyfarfod yn yr ymdrech gyson i ymdrin â'r agenda hon, gan ei bod hi'n amlwg bod angen dadl genedlaethol ynglŷn â ffurf sector gofal cymdeithasol cynaliadwy ac o safon uchel yng Nghymru. A golyga hynny, wrth gwrs, parhau i ddatblygu ein hagenda i integreiddio iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol i wella canlyniadau a phrofiad. Roedd pob plaid yn y fan yma, wrth gwrs yn rhan o helpu i gomisiynu'r farn seneddol y gwnaethom ni ei derbyn wedyn ac adeiladu arni, ac sy'n ganolog i'n hagenda 'Cymru Iachach' - y cynllun tymor hir ar y cyd ar gyfer iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol yma yng Nghymru. Ond dylai'r ddadl am ofal cymdeithasol, wrth gamu i'r dyfodol, yn briodol, gynnwys dewisiadau ar gyfer cyllid, gan gynnwys trethu, a byddwn yn ystyried ymchwil presennol a gwaith blaenorol. Ac fel y dywedais yn gynharach, mae'n rhaid i'r ddadl gydnabod y swyddogaeth sydd gan lywodraeth leol gan mai hi sy'n darparu ac yn comisiynu llawer o'r gofal yr ydym ni wedi'i drafod heddiw. Bydd yn rhaid i bobl yn yr holl wahanol bleidiau a darparwyr eraill hefyd gael eu cynnwys, ac rwyf eisiau amlygu'r ffaith bod y sgwrs gyda llywodraeth leol yn digwydd ar draws sawl haen wahanol o arweinyddiaeth wleidyddol: Mae cynghorau dan arweiniad y Ceidwadwyr, Plaid Cymru, Annibynnol a Llafur Cymru yn rhan o'r drafodaeth yr ydym ni eisiau ei chael, ac yn ei chael, gan gynnwys trafodaeth â Chymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr y Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Mae'n ystyried y pwynt a wnaeth Vikki Howells - pan fyddech chi'n siarad ag arweinwyr ac aelodau cabinet awdurdodau lleol, fe welwch chi mewn gwirionedd bod eu prif bryder ynghylch cyllid yn y dyfodol yn ymwneud â gofal cymdeithasol ac addysg, y ddau floc mawr o ran gwariant, a sut y byddan nhw'n llwyddo i gynnal gwariant yn y maes hwn, nid yn unig o safbwynt ariannol, ond, mewn gwirionedd, o safbwynt ansawdd y gofal y bydden nhw'n dymuno ei weld yn cael ei ddarparu yn eu cymunedau lleol. Felly, rydym ni wedi ymrwymo i ystyried syniadau newydd ac unrhyw ddulliau creadigol sy'n bodoli, yn enwedig wrth inni ddatblygu modelau gofal newydd - i barhau i hybu dull ataliol, i wneud defnydd llawn o'r dechnoleg sy'n bodoli eisoes a thechnoleg newydd i helpu pobl cymaint â phosib i aros yn annibynnol a chael cefnogaeth yn eu cymunedau eu hunain. Ac wrth gwrs bydd cwestiynau ynghylch faint o refeniw newydd yr ydym ni'n disgwyl ei godi. Felly, nid yn unig sut y defnyddiwn ni'r refeniw sydd gennym ni yn awr, ond sut i godi refeniw newydd a beth fyddai, neu y dylai hynny ei ddarparu. Ac mae cwestiynau wedi eu holi a nifer o sylwadau wedi eu gwneud ynghylch yr hyn yr ydym ni'n ceisio'i wneud. I ddisodli refeniw neu i godi refeniw newydd? Rydym ni'n dymuno i i fwy o refeniw fod ar gael. Fe drof i at rai o'r sylwadau a wnaed - ni fyddaf yn gallu ymdrin â phob un - ond mae gennym ni'r ddadl hon ynghylch pa un a fyddwn ni'n mynd i rigol a dim ond siarad yn unig am ariannu gwasanaethau hanfodol. Felly, fe ddywedaf i mai £1.2 biliwn yw cost isaf cyni - dim ond cadw ar yr un raddfa â chwyddiant, nid cadw ar yr un raddfa â chynnyrch domestig gros. Cawn wedyn ein beio gan bleidiau eraill. Rydym ni'n ymateb drwy ddweud mewn tri etholiad cyffredinol olynol o hyrwyddo cyni, ni chawn ni mewn gwirionedd gyfle i fynd i'r afael â'r heriau sydd gennym ni, naill ai yng Nghymru neu yng ngweddill y Deyrnas Unedig. Mae dewisiadau i'w gwneud o fewn ein cyllideb, ac rydym ni wedi gwneud dewisiadau, oherwydd does dim dewis nad oes effaith iddo wedyn. Fe wnaethom ni ddewis, o fewn cyllideb gyffredinol a oedd yn crebachu, i fuddsoddi mwy yn ein GIG, ac mae hynny'n effeithio ar bob llinell gyllideb a ariennir gennym ni. Does dim diben cymryd arnom ni na ddigwyddodd hynny. Ond o ran gofal cymdeithasol, os na allwn ni gynhyrchu refeniw ychwanegol, yna bydd yn rhaid inni dderbyn y bydd ein gwasanaeth gofal yn crebachu a'r ansawdd yn gostwng. Felly, nid yw hyn dim ond yn ymwneud â chodi refeniw ychwanegol i gynnal gwasanaeth; rydym ni eisiau codi refeniw ychwanegol i gynnal a hefyd i wella gwasanaeth. Felly, nid yw'n ymwneud ag ymateb i'r her ddemograffig yn unig. A'n pryder mwyaf, wrth gwrs, yw bod gofal cymdeithasol bob amser wedi dibynnu ar brawf modd, pan nad yw'r GIG ers ei greu wedi dibynnu ar brawf modd. Ac mae llawer o'n dinasyddion yr ydym ni'n eu cynrychioli wedi synnu bod gofal cymdeithasol yn dibynnu ar brawf modd - ar yr adeg y mae angen gofal cymdeithasol arnyn nhw, maen nhw'n synnu bod yn rhaid iddyn nhw gael rhyw fath ar brawf modd. Nawr, rwy'n cydnabod yr hyn a ddywedodd Dai Lloyd ynglŷn â'i ddymuniad i gael gwasanaeth gofal gwladol a'r pwynt ehangach ynghylch gwella gwasanaethau i ddinasyddion - y dinesydd sydd angen urddas yn y gofal y mae'n cymryd rhan ynddo ac yn ei gael, ond hefyd urddas yr aelod o staff sy'n darparu'r gofal hwnnw. Roeddwn yn falch iawn, yn y ddadl, bod nifer o Aelodau wedi gwneud y sylw eu bod wedi gweld gofal cymdeithasol ar waith, maen nhw wedi ymweld â phobl ac wedi cael profiadau personol eu hunain, ac maen nhw'n llawn edmygedd o ansawdd y gofal y mae ein staff yn ei ddarparu, ac yn aml staff nad ydyn nhw'n cael eu talu'n dda iawn. Nid yw'r her, rwy'n cytuno, yn fater o gyllid yn unig, ond mae angen inni symud ymlaen gyda modelau ariannu newydd os ydym ni'n mynd i ymateb i heriau demograffig a heriau ansawdd ar gyfer y dyfodol. Fel y dywedais yn gynharach, Llywydd, byddwn ni'n gwrthwynebu gwelliant cyntaf y Ceidwadwyr, ond yn cefnogi'r ail. Diolch i'r Aelodau am eu cyfraniadau heddiw ac edrychaf ymlaen at barhau â'r sgwrs hon i lywio ein dewisiadau ar gyfer datblygu modd o ariannu costau gofal cymdeithasol yma yng Nghymru yn y dyfodol ac rwy'n wirioneddol edrych ymlaen at allu gwneud hynny yn fy mhlaid fy hun, ac ar draws gwahanol bleidiau a gyda gwahanol bartneriaid o fewn a'r tu allan i'r lle hwn.