English: I'm pleased to be here to debate today the Finance Committee's inquiry into the financial estimates accompanying legislation - probably not the talk of bars and pubs across the land, but nonetheless - [ Interruption. ] Well, maybe in your neck of the woods, Dai Lloyd. Nonetheless an important issue for us to discuss because it does go to the heart of what we do here in terms of forming legislation and ensuring that relevant costs are met. As the Chair said in opening, the aims of the report were to examine the costs of legislation with specific reference to the costs associated with a sample of selected Acts that we looked at. We also were charged with examining the current reporting and monitoring arrangements for legislative costs after implementation, and establishing the effectiveness and the quality of RIAs that have been produced, and how this informs monitoring. RIAs went to the heart of our inquiry. While progress has been made on regulatory impact assessments - and that's to be welcomed - the Finance Committee's report highlights that more work is clearly needed, such as ensuring a summary of financial information to be included in the RIAs for each of the Bills that are introduced. We also felt that a distinction must be made as to whether costs are capital or revenue, and that was key to recommendation 1. If I can just turn to the issue of transparency, during the passage of the Welsh Government's most recent budget, the evidence several committees received showed the problems in scrutinising proposed changes to grants, changes to budget lines and different calculations included to underline its supposed increase in funding to schools and social care. Those were issues that I raised during the draft budget and the final budget debate, and I hope that the Welsh Government will take them on board to make sure this process is as transparent as possible. In terms of stakeholders, there was a wider concern - or, I should say, the implications for stakeholders were of a particular concern. They've been hit by higher charges due to issues within regulatory impact assessments. For instance, the committee heard that Residential Landlords Association members were hit by higher charges under the Housing (Wales) Act 2014 than those initially outlined by the regulatory impact assessment. These changes, the RLA claimed in evidence, were made without notification, and furthermore, in relation to costing the Rent Smart Wales scheme, Cardiff council, which operates the scheme on behalf of the 22 local authorities, created its own financial model showing that the Welsh Government's RIA had overestimated the total number of landlords in Wales. So, that was one issue that was highlighted by our inquiry. One of the recommendations regarding stakeholders is recommendation 5, and that's that the Welsh Government should thoroughly consider the financial implications for all stakeholders in RIAs, including ensuring that the financial implications for the private sector are fully considered. Not always straightforward but, we felt, very important. I'm also disappointed - the Chair's already mentioned this - that the Welsh Government has rejected recommendation 10, recommending that summary information in RIAs contain explicit reference to how any costs identified in the assessment will be funded, and by whom. Whilst I see what the Welsh Government is getting at by stating that this is a wider use of the RIA than originally anticipated and that this could pose complexities, well, yes, it is, it may be, but at the end of the day, we felt that this is a good way of bolstering RIAs, making them more meaningful and presenting that information in terms of the finance and the Bills that we feel is essential - it's certainly going to be helpful - in deciding whether that legislation is going to achieve its goals or not. Simon Thomas also referred to issues that we addressed within the future generations legislation. If Steffan Lewis were here today, I'm sure that he'd be bouncing up and down in his seat and commenting at this point. He had his concerns about that legislation, and those are well versed. I would say if we can't get this right when it comes to more straightforward, simpler legislation, then when it comes to legislation as complex as the future generations Act, then there are going to be serious problems for this Assembly. So, let's look at ways that we can improve this process for legislation across the board. I think it's welcome, in concluding, Dirprwy Lywydd, that the Welsh Government believes that there is scope to improve processes so that any errors or gaps in analysis are identified before a Bill is laid in front of the Assembly. I think we're all singing from the same hymn sheet on that one. We all want to make this process better. We want it to be an exemplary process that we follow through in the Assembly here, and one that people across the rest of the UK, and indeed the world, can look at and say, 'That's how they do it. We think that's better than the way that we do it. We want to get this right'. So, I hope that the Welsh Government does take on board the implications. I'm pleased that you've accepted a number of the recommendations that we put forward. I'm sorry that you rejected one of those recommendations in particular, but I hope that the Welsh Government does look at ways that this process can be improved so that we can have a far better way of legislating in future.
Welsh: Rwy'n falch o fod yma i ddadlau heddiw ynglŷn ag ymchwiliad y Pwyllgor Cyllid i'r amcangyfrifon ariannol sy'n mynd gyda deddfwriaeth - efallai nad yw'n destun sgwrs mewn bariau a thafarndai ar draws y wlad, ond serch hynny - [ Torri ar draws. ] Wel, yn eich rhan chi o'r wlad efallai, Dai Lloyd. Serch hynny, mae'n fater pwysig i ni ei drafod am ei fod yn mynd at wraidd yr hyn a wnawn yma o ran llunio deddfwriaeth a sicrhau y cedwir at y costau perthnasol. Fel y dywedodd y Cadeirydd wrth agor, nod yr adroddiad oedd archwilio costau deddfwriaeth gan gyfeirio'n benodol at y costau sy'n gysylltiedig â sampl o Ddeddfau dethol y buom yn edrych arnynt. Hefyd, ein cyfrifoldeb oedd archwilio'r trefniadau adrodd a monitro presennol ar gyfer costau deddfwriaethol ar ôl gweithredu, a sefydlu effeithiolrwydd ac ansawdd yr asesiadau effaith rheoleiddiol a gynhyrchwyd, a sut y mae hyn yn llywio monitro. Aeth asesiadau effaith rheoleiddiol i wraidd ein hymchwiliad. Er y gwnaed cynnydd ar asesiadau effaith rheoleiddiol - ac mae hynny i'w groesawu - dengys adroddiad y Pwyllgor Cyllid ei bod yn amlwg fod angen rhagor o waith, megis sicrhau bod crynodeb o'r wybodaeth ariannol i'w gynnwys yn yr asesiadau effaith rheoleiddiol ar gyfer pob un o'r Biliau a gyflwynir. Roeddem hefyd yn teimlo bod yn rhaid nodi'n benodol pa un a yw'r costau'n gyfalaf neu'n refeniw, ac roedd hynny'n allweddol i argymhelliad 1. Os caf droi at dryloywder, yn ystod taith cyllideb ddiweddaraf Llywodraeth Cymru, roedd y dystiolaeth a gafodd sawl pwyllgor yn dangos y problemau gyda chraffu ar newidiadau arfaethedig i grantiau, newidiadau i linellau cyllideb a gwahanol gyfrifiadau a gynhwyswyd i danlinellu'r cynnydd tybiedig yn y cyllid i ysgolion a gofal cymdeithasol. Roedd y rhain yn faterion a godais yn ystod y gyllideb ddrafft a'r ddadl ar y gyllideb derfynol, a gobeithiaf y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu hystyried er mwyn gwneud yn siŵr fod y broses hon mor dryloyw â phosibl. O ran rhanddeiliaid, roedd pryder ehangach - neu roedd y goblygiadau i randdeiliaid, dylwn ddweud, yn peri pryder arbennig. Maent wedi cael eu taro gan gostau uwch oherwydd materion o fewn yr asesiadau effaith rheoleiddiol. Er enghraifft, clywodd y pwyllgor fod aelodau'r Gymdeithas Landlordiaid Preswyl wedi eu taro gan gostau uwch o dan Ddeddf Tai (Cymru) 2014 na'r rhai a amlinellwyd yn wreiddiol gan yr asesiad effaith rheoleiddiol. Honnodd y Gymdeithas Landlordiaid Preswyl mewn tystiolaeth fod y newidiadau hyn wedi eu gwneud yn ddirybudd, ac at hynny, o ran costio'r cynllun Rhentu Doeth Cymru, roedd cyngor Caerdydd, sy'n gweithredu'r cynllun ar ran y 22 awdurdod lleol, wedi creu eu model ariannol eu hunain a ddangosai fod asesiad effaith rheoleiddiol Llywodraeth Cymru wedi goramcangyfrif cyfanswm y landlordiaid yng Nghymru. Felly, dyna un mater a gafodd sylw yn ein hymchwiliad. Un o'r argymhellion sy'n ymwneud â rhanddeiliaid yw argymhelliad 5, sef y dylai Llywodraeth Cymru ystyried yn drylwyr y goblygiadau ariannol ar gyfer pob rhanddeiliad mewn asesiadau effaith rheoleiddiol, gan gynnwys sicrhau bod y goblygiadau ariannol ar gyfer y sector preifat yn cael eu hystyried yn llawn. Nid yw hynny bob amser yn syml, ond teimlem ei fod yn bwysig iawn. Rwy'n siomedig hefyd - mae'r Cadeirydd eisoes wedi crybwyll hyn - fod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi gwrthod argymhelliad 10, sy'n argymell bod y wybodaeth gryno mewn asesiadau effaith rheoleiddiol yn cyfeirio'n benodol at sut y bydd unrhyw gostau a nodir yn yr asesiad yn cael eu hariannu a chan bwy. Er fy mod yn gweld beth y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei wneud drwy ddweud bod hyn yn ddefnydd ehangach o'r asesiad effaith rheoleiddiol nag a ragwelwyd yn wreiddiol, ac y gallai achosi cymhlethdodau, wel, ydy, mae'n bosibl y gallai, ond yn y pen draw, teimlem fod hon yn ffordd dda o gryfhau asesiadau effaith rheoleiddiol, gan eu gwneud yn fwy ystyrlon a chyflwyno'r wybodaeth honno yn nhermau'r cyllid a'r Biliau y teimlwn eu bod yn hanfodol - yn sicr mae'n mynd i fod yn ddefnyddiol - wrth benderfynu a yw'r ddeddfwriaeth honno yw mynd i gyflawni ei nodau ai peidio. Cyfeiriodd Simon Thomas hefyd at faterion yr aethpwyd i'r afael â hwy yn neddfwriaeth cenedlaethau'r dyfodol. Pe bai Steffan Lewis yma heddiw, rwy'n siŵr y byddai'n neidio i fyny ac i lawr yn ei sedd ac yn rhoi sylwadau ar y pwynt hwn. Roedd ganddo ei bryderon ynglŷn â'r ddeddfwriaeth honno, ac rydym yn gyfarwydd iawn â'r rheini. Os na allwn gael hyn yn iawn o ran llunio deddfwriaeth symlach, yna mewn perthynas â deddfwriaeth mor gymhleth â Deddf cenedlaethau'r dyfodol, buaswn yn dweud y bydd yna broblemau difrifol i'r Cynulliad hwn. Felly, gadewch inni edrych ar ffyrdd y gallwn wella'r broses ddeddfu hon yn gyffredinol. Wrth gloi, Ddirprwy Lywydd, credaf ei bod hi'n dda fod Llywodraeth Cymru'n credu bod lle i wella'r prosesau fel bod unrhyw wallau neu fylchau yn y dadansoddiad yn cael eu nodi cyn cyflwyno Bil gerbron y Cynulliad. Credaf fod pawb ohonom yn gytûn ar hynny. Rydym oll am wneud y broses hon yn well. Rydym am inni ddilyn proses ragorol yma yn y Cynulliad, proses y gall pobl ar draws gweddill y DU, ac ar draws y byd yn wir, edrych arni a dweud, 'Dyna sut y maent hwy yn ei wneud. Credwn fod hynny'n well na'r ffordd rydym ni yn ei wneud. Rydym eisiau cael hyn yn iawn'. Rwy'n gobeithio, felly, fod Llywodraeth Cymru yn ystyried y goblygiadau. Rwy'n falch eich bod wedi derbyn nifer o'r argymhellion a gyflwynwyd gennym. Mae'n ddrwg gennyf eich bod wedi gwrthod un o'r argymhellion hynny yn arbennig, ond rwy'n gobeithio bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn edrych ar ffyrdd y gellir gwella'r broses hon fel y gallwn gael gwell ffordd o lawer o ddeddfu yn y dyfodol.