English: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I thank all of the Members who've contributed to today's debate? It might have been a little shorter than some debates that we have in this Chamber, but I think that all of the points that Members made were well made and to be welcomed. There have been some recurrent themes that have been touched on by all Members, starting with Mohammad Asghar, who mentioned the issues of transparency and the need for openness. I think we need to know the scale of the problem before us, and to accept that so that we can find solutions - that's key. And that's what PAC reports like this are here to do: to shed light on those areas where things are failing - respecting the fact that there are other areas where progress is being made and success is happening - those areas that are failing, like in this area, need to be put right. Helen Mary Jones reminds us she's not easily shocked, but you are right to be shocked or taken aback by this report. It is a hard-hitting report - I don't make any bones about that. It is a scathing report. It doesn't hold any punches, because it is reporting on the evidence that we received, and deep concerns that were in some sectors about the problems that we're facing with the informatics in the NHS. As you said, Helen Mary, this isn't a theoretical debate. It's actually, as I speak here now, as you spoke earlier - out there in Wales, it is affecting real people, it's affecting staff and it's affecting patients. Perhaps 50 years ago when computers were, well, certainly in their infancy and informatics probably wasn't even imagined, these sorts of issues were obviously not relevant. But now they are. They're relevant to other areas of life and they're increasingly relevant to the health service. I'm glad, Helen Mary, that you quoted Lee Waters - Lee Waters, a previous member and a valued member of the Public Accounts Committee. I know that these are issues - a different hat on now, of course, so you're not part of this debate today, but you put a lot of work in with the rest of the committee and that's to be welcomed as well. Digital transformation, when you quoted Lee, is about being open. That echoes Mohammad Asghar's earlier comments as well. That's what we're trying to achieve here. Turning to the Minister's response - and I think it's a well-meaning response, as Helen Mary said, it's a response that contained a lot in it to be welcomed. Thank you for the spirit that you delivered it in, Minister, and thank you for your evidence that you gave to the committee. I'm pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted our recommendations. I'm pleased more than anything because they need to be accepted. You're right: we all want improvement in this area. The issue that we have - one of the predominant, overriding issues - is the pace of change. It cannot be right that Assembly Members who were here back in the early days of devolution, when we were discussing exactly the same problems, have now come back and everything is as it was. That can't be right. So, pace is the issue. Yes, there have been improvements, yes, things have moved on in some areas, but it needs to happen quicker. We need to have capacity. We need to have a capacity within the Welsh Government, within the NHS system - a capacity and the skills that are required to put this situation right. The committee wasn't convinced that that capacity is there at the moment. There was evidence of capability in the system - we had a long discussion about the difference between capability and capacity - but there were concerns about the scale of that capacity. Outages - Members mentioned the number of outages. I'm pleased to hear there haven't been any since last September because, quite frankly, with the scale of some of the outages that were happening, they were really holding the system back and holding progress back. That has to be sorted out so that we can move on. There is support for change - within the Welsh Government, dare I say, within this Chamber itself - of course there is support for change across the board. We all want this sorted out. It is going to take money, but it's also going to take a change of mindset - or a moving on of the mindset is probably a better way to put it - because there is undoubtedly a desire, amongst all the stakeholders that we took evidence from, for this position to be improved. But we're nowhere near there yet. We're on a road, but we want to get where we're going far faster than we are. Let's give the NHS the informatics system that it deserves. Let's give the people of Wales, patients and staff the system that they deserve and need. We've waited a long time. I plead with the Minister to employ your commitment to this to make sure that we do get an improvement in the informatics system that we all want to see.
Welsh: Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Hoffwn ddiolch i'r holl Aelodau sydd wedi cyfrannu at y ddadl heddiw. Efallai ei bod ychydig yn fyrrach na rhai o'r dadleuon a gawn yn y Siambr hon, ond credaf fod pob un o'r pwyntiau a wnaeth yr Aelodau wedi'u gwneud yn dda ac i'w croesawu. Cyffyrddodd yr holl Aelodau ar rai themâu a oedd yn codi eu pen dro ar ôl tro, gan ddechrau gyda Mohammad Asghar, a soniodd am dryloywder a'r angen i fod yn agored. Rwy'n credu bod angen inni wybod maint y broblem sy'n ein hwynebu, ac i dderbyn hynny fel y gallwn ganfod atebion - mae hynny'n allweddol. A dyna y mae adroddiadau'r Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus yma i'w gwneud: taflu goleuni ar y meysydd lle mae pethau'n methu - gan barchu'r ffaith bod yna feysydd eraill lle mae cynnydd a llwyddiant yn digwydd - ac mae angen rhoi'r meysydd sy'n methu, fel y maes hwn, ar y trywydd cywir. Mae Helen Mary Jones yn ein hatgoffa nad yw hi'n un hawdd ei dychryn, ond rydych yn iawn i gael eich dychryn neu eich synnu gan yr adroddiad hwn. Mae'n adroddiad diflewyn ar dafod - nid wyf yn gwadu hynny. Mae'n adroddiad deifiol. Nid yw'n dal yn ôl, oherwydd mae'n adrodd ar y dystiolaeth a gawsom, a'r pryderon dwfn mewn rhai sectorau am y problemau sy'n ein hwynebu gyda gwybodeg yn y GIG. Fel y dywedoch chi, Helen Mary, nid dadl ddamcaniaethol yw hon. Mae'n digwydd go iawn, wrth i mi siarad yma yn awr, wrth i chi siarad yn gynharach - allan yno yng Nghymru, mae'n effeithio ar bobl go iawn, mae'n effeithio ar staff ac yn effeithio ar gleifion. Efallai 50 mlynedd yn ôl pan oedd cyfrifiaduron, wel, yn sicr yn eu babandod ac mae'n fwy na phosibl nad oedd gwybodeg wedi'i ddychmygu hyd yn oed, yn amlwg nid oedd y mathau hyn o bethau'n berthnasol. Ond maent yn berthnasol bellach. Maent yn berthnasol i feysydd eraill o fywyd ac maent yn gynyddol berthnasol i'r gwasanaeth iechyd. Rwy'n falch, Helen Mary, eich bod wedi dyfynnu Lee Waters - Lee Waters, aelod blaenorol ac aelod gwerthfawr o'r Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus. Gwn fod y rhain yn faterion - rydych yn gwisgo het wahanol bellach, wrth gwrs, felly nid ydych yn rhan o'r ddadl hon heddiw, ond fe wnaethoch lawer o waith gyda gweddill y pwyllgor, ac mae hynny i'w groesawu yn ogystal. Mae gweddnewidiad digidol, pan ddyfynnoch chi Lee, yn ymwneud â bod yn agored. Mae hynny'n adleisio sylwadau Mohammad Asghar yn gynharach hefyd. Dyna rydym yn ceisio ei gyflawni yma. Gan droi at ymateb y Gweinidog - ac rwy'n credu ei fod yn ymateb llawn bwriadau da, fel y dywedodd Helen Mary, mae'n ymateb a oedd yn cynnwys llawer sydd i'w groesawu. Diolch i chi am yr ysbryd y gwnaethoch ei gyflwyno ynddo, Weinidog, a diolch i chi am y dystiolaeth a roesoch i'r pwyllgor. Rwy'n falch fod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi derbyn ein hargymhellion. Rwy'n falch yn fwy na dim oherwydd mae angen iddynt gael eu derbyn. Rydych yn gywir: mae pawb ohonom am weld gwelliant yn y maes hwn. Y broblem sydd gennym - un o'r pethau pwysicaf oll - yw cyflymder newid. Ni all fod yn iawn fod Aelodau Cynulliad a oedd yma yn nyddiau cynnar datganoli, pan oeddem yn trafod yr un problemau'n union, yn ôl yma bellach a phopeth fel yr oedd. Ni all hynny fod yn iawn. Felly, mae cyflymder yn broblem. Do, fe fu gwelliannau, do, mae pethau wedi symud ymlaen mewn rhai meysydd, ond mae angen iddo ddigwydd yn gyflymach. Mae angen inni gael capasiti. Mae angen inni gael capasiti o fewn Llywodraeth Cymru, o fewn system y GIG - y capasiti a'r sgiliau sydd eu hangen i unioni'r sefyllfa. Nid oedd y pwyllgor yn argyhoeddedig fod y capasiti hwnnw yno ar hyn o bryd. Roedd tystiolaeth o allu yn y system - cawsom drafodaeth hir am y gwahaniaeth rhwng gallu a chapasiti - ond roedd pryderon ynghylch maint y capasiti hwnnw. Methiannau - soniodd Aelodau am nifer y methiannau. Rwy'n falch o glywed na fu unrhyw fethiant ers mis Medi diwethaf oherwydd, a dweud y gwir, gyda maint rhai o'r methiannau a oedd yn digwydd, roeddent yn llyffethair mawr ar y system ac yn arafu cynnydd. Rhaid datrys hynny fel y gallwn symud ymlaen. Mae yna gefnogaeth i newid - o fewn Llywodraeth Cymru, os caf ddweud, o fewn y Siambr hon ei hun - wrth gwrs bod pawb yn cefnogi newid. Mae pawb ohonom am weld hyn yn cael ei ddatrys. Mae'n mynd i olygu arian, ond mae hefyd yn mynd i olygu newid meddylfryd - neu efallai fod datblygu meddylfryd yn ffordd well o'i roi mae'n debyg - oherwydd heb amheuaeth mae yna awydd ymysg yr holl randdeiliaid y cawsom dystiolaeth ganddynt i weld y sefyllfa hon yn gwella. Ond nid ydym yn agos at fod yno eto. Rydym ar y ffordd, ond rydym am gyrraedd lle rydym yn mynd yn gyflymach nag y gwnawn ar hyn o bryd. Gadewch inni roi'r system wybodeg y mae'n ei haeddu i'r GIG. Gadewch inni roi'r system y maent yn ei haeddu a'i hangen i bobl Cymru, a chleifion a staff. Rydym wedi aros yn hir. Rwy'n erfyn ar y Gweinidog i ddefnyddio eich ymrwymiad i hyn i wneud yn siŵr ein bod yn gweld gwelliant yn y system wybodeg fel y mae pawb ohonom yn dymuno ei weld.