English: I'd like to begin my contribution by indicating that the Welsh Conservatives will be supporting this Bill at Stage 1. However, we do so with a very long list of caveats and concerns that we would like to see addressed over the coming stages, and in the amendments that we will be intending to put forward. We believe that the Government should be wise in legislating. You don't just legislate for legislation's sake. We have to be crystal clear as to what the gains will be of passing legislation that is targeted at a very, very small number of people, and we should remember, in all of our conversations, that alcohol in itself is not a problem. It is perfectly legitimate, and it is perfectly well used by a great many people throughout the world. The issue is that some people have a problem with how they deal with alcohol, and we need to be laser-like in our focus as to how we can support those people and put them back onto a way where they can have a much better outcome for their health in the long term. Whilst reviewing this during the Stage 1 debate, one of the concerns that came to me - and I was very pleased to note that the Finance Committee also reiterated that - is that actually there is a lack of statistical evidence as to what the benefits will be of a minimum unit alcohol price. When I listened to the evidence before us, Cabinet Secretary, I had two thoughts. There was one group who have based a very large and very opinionated set of parameters, if you like, totally on modelling, and there was the opposite group, who were actually putting forward why we shouldn't do it, why we shouldn't go ahead. But they were very subjective in their evidence. What I didn't get any sense of was a real clear, 'Here is the evidence; you make your decision'. It was so opinionated, either one way or the other, throughout the whole of the evidence session, that I would like to try to flesh out in the next stage a much clearer sense of real, hard empirical research that shows where minimum unit pricing can really help to bring people off of a disastrous path in terms of their complex relationship with alcohol. The Finance Committee actually said - and I'm quoting - that 'there is no statistical evidence that introducing a MUP will lead to a reduction in alcohol consumption.' Given what I said at the very beginning about when you make legislation you have to make it responsibly, you have to have a very clear view of what it is you're trying to achieve. That, I think, Cabinet Secretary, is one of the clear responsibilities that you as a Government must fulfil in the next stage of this Bill. We must be absolutely crystal clear as to what we're going to achieve and make sure we've got the evidence for it. If that evidence isn't there, we need to think long and hard about whether or not we should sit back and wait and see what the experiment in Scotland does before we follow it. And I do understand that there are a lot of other reasons why the Welsh Government wants to process this - because of the timescales connected with Brexit et cetera - but I think that it is our responsibility to look at that. [ Interruption.] I'm sorry, please forgive me. I do think that we absolutely agree, the Welsh Conservatives - [ Interruption. ] I have water, thank you - with the response from CLAC and about how we should look at putting on the face of the Bill certain key parameters as to how we will move forward with this, and I'd like to see that explored in Stage 2 as the Government goes forward. I would like us to have a very long, hard look at the substitution effect. I think that this is something that has been glossed over. Again, when we looked at the evidence base that we had coming before us, we asked as a committee, time and time again, that we should be able to find evidence from drugs charities and from other groups who deal with people who have substance misuse as to what the journey might be for somebody who has an addiction issue. There wasn't that evidence out there. It's something that people haven't done research on, which I personally did find quite extraordinary. There just wasn't enough hard-hitting stuff that could say that, if somebody is addicted to alcohol or has a complex relationship with alcohol, that enables them to go out and do binge drinking or any other harmful exercise with, they won't necessarily go on a journey that might bring them to another substance. I think that, during Stage 2, the Welsh Conservatives would like to see an awful lot more work done on that whole substitution theory. We went out and talked to the Huggard centre. We have talked to some of the other charities. The evidence must be there. Welsh Government: it is incumbent on you to go out and dig out that evidence, so that here in this legislature, we can make a really clear decision about whether or not this is going to actually target the people who most need it. Finally - there are lots of points that I'd like to make, but I'm very aware that I'm running out of time - Presiding Officer, I would like to talk about the impact on family incomes for those just about managing. We talk about, as I've discovered - . I'll be honest with you: I didn't realise that the word 'cider' - I always thought that that meant it had to have an apple in it. We discovered that there are ciders out there that have never seen an apple, never been near an apple, and are just pure chemicals. These are the kinds of things that you are trying to eradicate through this Bill, and, you know, I think that's a very worthwhile aim. However, there are a lot of people who are only just managing who will go out and buy value brands. They are drinking responsibly. It is, you know, one of the enjoyments that they have in life. But, a value brand will also be really badly hit by the minimum unit alcohol pricing Bill. You could look at perhaps an older person who goes out and buys a four-pack of cider - not the ones that I don't think I'm allowed to mention that have never seen an apple, but the ones that are just above that, but are value brands. Their drinking bill would be increased by about £150 a year. These are people that don't have very much money, it's a very small pleasure, they are not doing anything wrong, and they are not being irresponsible. I think that, as Caroline may have mentioned in her contribution, we must make sure that this Bill is equitable and fair. It doesn't mean that those who have got money but drink irresponsibly can carry on doing it, and those who don't drink irresponsibly but for whom a little drink is a necessary part of their life - they end up being penalised unfairly. I think that that would defeat all of the objectives of equity that I would hope that the Welsh Government would want to promulgate. So, I do ask for your forgiveness for my inability to deliver this in a more quick and timely fashion. We will support it at this stage, but there are a lot more questions to be asked. Welsh Government: it is incumbent on you to provide some of these answers if you wish the Welsh Conservatives to continue to support this Bill to fruition.
Welsh: Hoffwn ddechrau fy nghyfraniad drwy nodi y bydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru yn cefnogi'r Bil hwn yng Nghyfnod 1. Fodd bynnag, rydym yn gwneud hynny gyda rhestr hir iawn o gafeatau a phryderon y byddem ni'n hoffi eu gweld yn cael sylw dros y cyfnodau nesaf, ac yn y gwelliannau yr ydym yn bwriadu eu cyflwyno. Credwn y dylai'r Llywodraeth fod yn ddoeth wrth ddeddfu. Dydych chi ddim yn deddfu dim ond er mwyn deddfu. Mae'n rhaid inni fod yn gwbl glir ynghylch buddion pasio deddfwriaeth sydd wedi'i thargedu at nifer bach iawn o bobl, a dylem gofio, yn ein holl sgyrsiau, nad yw alcohol ei hun yn broblem. Mae'n gwbl gyfreithlon, ac mae'n cael ei ddefnyddio'n gwbl iawn gan nifer fawr o bobl ledled y byd. Yr hyn sydd dan sylw yw bod gan rai pobl broblem o ran sut y maen nhw'n ymdrin ag alcohol, ac mae angen inni fod yn benodol iawn yn ein pwyslais o ran sut y gallwn gynorthwyo'r bobl hynny a'u rhoi yn ôl ben y ffordd er mwyn iddynt gael gwell canlyniad ar gyfer eu hiechyd yn y tymor hir. Wrth adolygu hyn yn ystod dadl Cyfnod 1, un o'r pryderon i mi - ac roeddwn yn falch iawn o nodi bod y Pwyllgor Cyllid hefyd wedi ei nodi - yw bod diffyg tystiolaeth ystadegol, mewn gwirionedd, ynghylch beth fydd manteision isafbris uned ar gyfer alcohol. Wrth wrando ar y dystiolaeth sydd ger ein bron, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, meddyliais am ddau beth. Roedd un grŵp sydd wedi seilio set fawr iawn a rhagfarnllyd iawn o baramedrau, os mynnwch chi, ar fodelu yn gyfan gwbl, ac roedd y grŵp gyferbyn, a oedd mewn gwirionedd yn nodi pam na ddylem ni ei wneud, pam na ddylem ni fwrw ymlaen â hyn. Ond roedden nhw'n oddrychol iawn yn eu tystiolaeth. Yr hyn na chefais i oedd unrhyw ymdeimlad clir o 'Dyma'r dystiolaeth; gwnewch chi eich penderfyniad'. Roedd y cyfan mor rhagfarnllyd, y naill ffordd neu'r llall, drwy gydol y sesiwn dystiolaeth, felly byddwn i'n hoffi gweld llawer o ymhelaethu yn y cyfnod nesaf er mwyn cael ymdeimlad llawer cliriach o ymchwil empirig, dilys, go iawn sy'n dangos lle mewn gwirionedd y gall isafbris uned helpu i dynnu pobl oddi ar lwybr trychinebus o ran eu perthynas gymhleth ag alcohol. Mewn gwirionedd, dywedodd y Pwyllgor Cyllid - ac rwy'n dyfynnu - 'nid oes unrhyw dystiolaeth ystadegol sy'n dangos y bydd cyflwyno isafbris uned yn arwain at ostyngiad o ran faint o alcohol sy'n cael ei yfed.' O ystyried yr hyn a ddywedais ar y dechrau ynghylch pan fyddwch chi'n gwneud deddfwriaeth mae'n rhaid i chi ei gwneud yn gyfrifol, mae'n rhaid bod gennych ddarlun clir iawn o'r hyn yr ydych yn ceisio ei gyflawni. Dyna, rwy'n credu, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, yw un o'r cyfrifoldebau clir y mae'n rhaid i chi fel Llywodraeth ei gyflawni yng nghyfnod nesaf y Bil hwn. Mae'n rhaid inni fod yn gwbl glîr ynglŷn â'r hyn yr ydym ni'n mynd i'w gyflawni a sicrhau bod gennym y dystiolaeth ar ei gyfer. Os nad yw'r dystiolaeth honno yno, mae angen inni feddwl yn hir ac yn ofalus ynghylch pa un a ddylem ni eistedd yn ôl ac aros i weld beth fydd yr arbrawf yn yr Alban yn ei wneud cyn inni ei dilyn. Ac rwy'n deall bod llawer o resymau eraill pam y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn dymuno prosesu hyn - oherwydd yr amserlenni sy'n gysylltiedig â Brexit ac ati - ond rwyf i'n credu mai ein cyfrifoldeb ni yw edrych ar hynny. [ Torri ar draws.] Mae'n ddrwg gen i, maddeuwch imi. Rwy'n credu ein bod ni yn cytuno'n llwyr, y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - [ torri ar draws. ] Mae gen i ddŵr, diolch - gyda'r ymateb gan y Pwyllgor Materion Cyfansoddiadol a Deddfwriaethol a sut y dylem ni ystyried rhoi ar wyneb y Bil baramedrau allweddol penodol ynghylch sut y byddwn ni'n symud ymlaen gyda hyn, a hoffwn weld hynny'n cael ei archwilio yng Nghyfnod 2 wrth i'r Llywodraeth fwrw ymlaen. Hoffwn inni ystyried yn hir ac yn ofalus iawn yr effaith amnewid. Rwy'n credu bod hyn yn rhywbeth sydd wedi ei anwybyddu. Unwaith eto, pan wnaethom edrych ar y sail dystiolaeth a oedd gennym ger ein bron, gwnaethom ofyn fel pwyllgor, dro ar ôl tro, y dylem ni fod yn gallu dod o hyd i dystiolaeth gan elusennau cyffuriau a grwpiau eraill sy'n ymdrin â phobl yn camddefnyddio sylweddau ynghylch beth fyddai'r daith i rywun sydd â phroblem caethiwed. Doedd y dystiolaeth ddim ar gael. Mae'n rhywbeth nad yw pobl wedi gwneud ymchwil arno, ac roeddwn i'n bersonol o'r farn bod hynny'n eithaf rhyfeddol. Doedd dim digon o ddeunydd deifiol a allai ddweud, os oes rhywun yn gaeth i alcohol neu â pherthynas gymhleth ag alcohol, sy'n eu galluogi i fynd allan a goryfed mewn pyliau neu unrhyw arfer niweidiol arall, na fyddant o reidrwydd yn mynd ar daith a allai eu harwain at sylwedd arall. Rwy'n credu, yn ystod Cyfnod 2, y byddai'r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig yn hoffi gweld llawer iawn mwy o waith yn cael ei wneud ar y ddamcaniaeth amnewid gyfan honno. Aethom ni allan a siarad â'r Ganolfan Huggard. Rydym ni wedi siarad â rhai o'r elusennau eraill. Mae'n rhaid i'r dystiolaeth fod ar gael. Llywodraeth Cymru: eich dyletswydd chi yw mynd allan a dod o hyd i'r dystiolaeth honno, fel y gallwn, yma yn y ddeddfwrfa hon, wneud penderfyniad clir iawn ynghylch a yw hyn, mewn gwirionedd, yn mynd i dargedu y bobl sydd ei angen fwyaf. Yn olaf - mae yna lawer o bwyntiau yr hoffwn i eu gwneud, ond rwy'n ymwybodol iawn fy mod yn brin o amser - Llywydd, hoffwn i sôn am yr effaith ar incwm teulu i'r rhai hynny sydd prin yn ymdopi. Rydym ni'n sôn, fel yr wyf wedi darganfod - . Byddaf i'n onest â chi: doeddwn i ddim yn sylweddoli bod y gair 'seidr' - roeddwn i bob amser yn meddwl ei fod yn golygu bod yn rhaid bod afal ynddo. Rydym ni wedi canfod bod yna fathau o seidr allan yno sydd erioed wedi gweld afal, byth wedi bod ar gyfyl afal, ac maen nhw'n ddim ond cemegau pur. Dyma'r math o bethau yr ydych chi'n ceisio ei ddileu drwy'r Bil hwn, a wyddoch chi, rwy'n credu bod hwnnw'n nod gwerth chweil iawn. Fodd bynnag, mae llawer o bobl sydd prin yn ymdopi a fydd yn mynd allan ac yn prynu brandiau rhad. Maen nhw'n yfed yn gyfrifol. Wyddoch chi, mae'n un o'r pleserau sydd ganddyn nhw mewn bywyd. Ond, bydd brand rhad hefyd yn dioddef oherwydd y Bil isafbris uned ar gyfer alcohol. Gallech chi ystyried efallai person hŷn sy'n mynd allan ac yn prynu pecyn pedwar o seidr - nid y rhai nad wyf yn cael sôn amdanyn nhw nad ydynt erioed wedi gweld afal, ond y rhai sydd ychydig yn uwch na hynny, ond maen nhw'n frandiau rhad. Byddai eu bil yfed nhw yn cynyddu rhyw £150 y flwyddyn. Mae'r bobl hyn yn rai heb lawer iawn o arian, mae'n bleser bach iawn, dydyn nhw ddim yn gwneud unrhyw beth o'i le, a dydyn nhw ddim yn bod yn anghyfrifol. Rwy'n credu, fel y dywedodd Caroline o bosibl yn ei chyfraniad hi, bod yn rhaid inni sicrhau bod y Bil hwn yn gyfiawn ac yn deg. Nid yw'n golygu bod y rhai hynny sydd ag arian ond sy'n yfed yn anghyfrifol yn gallu parhau i wneud hynny, a'r rhai hynny sydd ddim yn yfed yn anghyfrifol ond y mae diod fach yn rhan angenrheidiol o'u bywydau - eu bod, yn y diwedd, yn cael eu cosbi'n annheg. Rwy'n credu y byddai hynny'n mynd yn groes i'r holl amcanion tegwch y byddwn yn gobeithio y byddai Llywodraeth Cymru am eu lledaenu. Felly, rwy'n gofyn am eich maddeuant am fy anallu i gyflawni hyn mewn ffordd fwy cyflym ac amserol. Byddwn ni'n ei gefnogi ar hyn o bryd, ond mae llawer mwy o gwestiynau i'w gofyn. Llywodraeth Cymru: mae dyletswydd arnoch chi i ddarparu rhai o'r atebion hyn os ydych chi'n dymuno i'r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig barhau i gefnogi'r Bil hwn tan iddo ddwyn ffrwyth.