English: Amendment 8, tabled by Peter Fox, essentially adds a new review point, two years after the Act comes into force. That's in addition to maintaining the existing commitment to review the Act after four years. As we've heard, amendment 9 is consequential to the approval of amendment 8. I've given the timing for the review considerable thought, giving special consideration to how the Bill has changed as a result of the committee's report and the amendments made at Stage 2. The timing of the review of this legislation has to ensure that enough time has passed to make the review meaningful, but also that the outcome of the review will be able to inform the development of future arrangements early in the next Senedd term. This is also informed by the inclusion, of course, of the sunset provision five years after the Bill comes into force, so it's not the case that the Bill could be extended time and time again. It's very clear that the Bill will have an end date. The review will consider the use of the power to make changes to the Welsh tax Acts and I consider that to have a review two years after it has come into force is too soon, as there's every chance that the power will not have been used at that point, rendering the review, to a large extent, meaningless. And furthermore, it does take time and resources for such reviews to be conducted if they're to be undertaken in a meaningful way. If the review was set at two years after Royal Assent, we would likely need to start work on that review not long after the Bill came into force. It also seems somewhat ineffective and repetitious to have those two reviews so close together in time when it's unlikely that there would have been much change during that time. So, for that reason, I am not able to support these amendments. Amendment 3, tabled by Llyr Gruffydd and supported by Peter Fox, requires that the review of the operation and effect of the Act must include consideration of alternate legislative mechanisms for making changes to the Welsh tax Acts and regulations made under those Acts. I've set out my intention to work with the committees to establish longer term arrangements for making changes to the Welsh tax Acts, which would necessarily include consideration of alternative legislative mechanisms for making changes to the Welsh tax Acts. I've also committed to specifically review the operation and effect of this Act four years after it comes into effect and that requirement is now on the face of the Bill. So, I don't consider this amendment is strictly necessary as this work will be taken forward as part of the wider considerations of those alternative legislative mechanisms. This might, but will not necessarily, include consideration of an annual or less frequent finance or taxation Bill process. I have reservations that placing a statutory requirement on the Welsh Ministers to report by a fixed date might lead to undue pressure on any working groups established to fit within that timescale, but whilst I do have those reservations, I am content to ask Members to support amendment 3, as whilst work on these long-term arrangements will be undertaken anyway, I am willing to go one step further and demonstrate my commitment by setting this out on the face of the legislation. Amendment 4, also tabled by Llyr Gruffydd and supported by Peter Fox, requires the Welsh Ministers to consult the Senedd and other appropriate persons as part of the review of the legislation, and I am of course happy to attend any meeting of the Finance Committee, or any other committee for that matter, when they invite me, in order to discuss the detail of the work being undertaken and the emerging thinking as to what the longer term mechanisms should be. It seems to me that such a process of engagement and consultation will happen as a matter of course. In addition, the Welsh Ministers would, as a matter of course, consult appropriate persons as necessary in the development of this review, and that is how I've approached the policy development undertaken on this Bill, and the Welsh tax Acts more broadly to date, and I will ensure that, together, the longer term mechanism is right for Wales. So, in summary, in terms of this amendment, whilst I believe that it's not strictly necessary as I would in any case be writing to the Senedd to ask for their views on the review of the operation of the Act and engaging with appropriate people in the development of the review, I am of course willing to demonstrate my commitment to working together on developing this legislation by accepting amendment 4 and setting this out on the face of the legislation. And then just to respond to some of the broader concerns that were raised during this particular section of the debate this afternoon. In the ordinary circumstances of law making - that is, where law is made as a result of considered policy development rather than required urgently or in response to external events - it is of course right that the Senedd should determine who is taxed and how they're taxed in accordance with the constitutional principles set out in the Government of Wales Act 2006. However, the power within the Bill is intended to deal with extraordinary circumstances that are distinctive to tax legislation. To provide an example, there have been many instances where new tax elements of stamp duty land tax have been introduced by the UK Government immediately or very shortly after an announcement is made, and this is generally to prevent taxpayers from forestalling - that is, bringing forward a transaction or alternatively delaying their transaction to benefit from a pre-announced tax change. The UK Government has recognised the distinctive nature of tax legislation when it provided UK Ministers with a power in section 109 of the Finance Act 2003 to be able to make any changes to stamp duty land tax legislation that are expedient in the public interest. The Scottish Parliament provided the Scottish Government with many regulation-making powers in its devolved tax Acts, including the setting of rates and bands by made affirmative procedure regulations. And, of course, this Senedd followed the precedent set by the Scottish Parliament, and provided Welsh Ministers with a similar suite of regulation-making powers, including the setting of rates by made affirmative procedure regulations. So, this Bill is seeking to build on these precedents, developing a flexible and agile mechanism for responding to external circumstances that provide a short-term solution for this stage in our devolution journey. Colleagues will be aware that I've really sought to restrict the scope of the regulation-making power in this Bill as much as possible. It may only be used where Welsh Ministers consider it necessary or appropriate, and in line with those four purpose tests. And, very importantly, during scrutiny and in discussions with Members, the power has been further curtailed, both in what it can be used to do and the period for which it can be used. I'm very supportive of the need to look at the long-term arrangements to make changes to Welsh tax Acts, and indeed I've committed to commencing that work with committees later in the autumn. I'm also starting to consider the scope and who needs to be involved in that work. But it's not possible, nor would it be right, for us to bring in these arrangements overnight without undertaking what is going to be really thorough policy development and engagement too, so that we have the most appropriate future legislative mechanism that meets our specific needs here in Wales.
Welsh: Mae gwelliant 8, a gyflwynwyd gan Peter Fox, yn ei hanfod yn ychwanegu adeg adolygu newydd, ddwy flynedd ar ôl i'r Ddeddf ddod i rym. Mae hynny'n ychwanegol at gynnal yr ymrwymiad presennol i adolygu'r Ddeddf ar ôl pedair blynedd. Fel y clywsom, mae gwelliant 9 yn ganlyniadol i gymeradwyo gwelliant 8. Rwyf wedi rhoi cryn ystyriaeth i'r amseru ar gyfer yr adolygiad, gan roi ystyriaeth arbennig i'r ffordd y mae'r Bil wedi newid o ganlyniad i adroddiad y pwyllgor a'r gwelliannau a wnaed yng Nghyfnod 2. Mae'n rhaid i amseriad yr adolygiad o'r ddeddfwriaeth hon sicrhau bod digon o amser wedi ei neilltuo i wneud yr adolygiad yn ystyrlon, ond hefyd y bydd canlyniad yr adolygiad yn gallu llywio'r gwaith o ddatblygu trefniadau yn y dyfodol yn gynnar yn nhymor nesaf y Senedd. Caiff hyn ei lywio hefyd gan gynnwys, wrth gwrs, y ddarpariaeth machlud bum mlynedd ar ôl i'r Bil ddod i rym, felly nid yw'n wir y gellid ymestyn y Bil dro ar ôl tro. Mae'n amlwg iawn y bydd gan y Bil ddyddiad dod i ben. Bydd yr adolygiad yn ystyried defnyddio'r pŵer i wneud newidiadau i Ddeddfau treth Cymru ac rwyf i o'r farn bod cynnal adolygiad ddwy flynedd ar ôl iddo ddod i rym yn rhy fuan, gan fod pob siawns na fydd y pŵer wedi'i ddefnyddio bryd hynny, gan wneud yr adolygiad, i raddau helaeth, yn ddiystyr. At hynny, mae'n cymryd amser ac adnoddau i gynnal adolygiadau o'r fath os ydyn nhw i gael eu cynnal mewn ffordd ystyrlon. Pe bai'r adolygiad yn cael ei bennu ar ddwy flynedd ar ôl y Cydsyniad Brenhinol, mae'n debygol y byddai angen i ni ddechrau gweithio ar yr adolygiad hwnnw heb fod yn hir ar ôl i'r Bil ddod i rym. Mae hefyd yn ymddangos braidd yn aneffeithiol ac yn ailadroddus i fod â'r ddau adolygiad hynny mor agos at ei gilydd ar adeg pan nad yw'n debygol y byddai llawer o newid wedi bod yn ystod y cyfnod hwnnw. Felly, am y rheswm hwnnw, ni allaf gefnogi'r gwelliannau hyn. Mae gwelliant 3, a gyflwynwyd gan Llyr Gruffydd ac a gefnogir gan Peter Fox, yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol i'r adolygiad o weithrediad ac effaith y Ddeddf gynnwys ystyriaeth o fecanweithiau deddfwriaethol eraill ar gyfer gwneud newidiadau i Ddeddfau treth Cymru a rheoliadau a wneir o dan y Deddfau hynny. Rwyf wedi nodi fy mwriad i weithio gyda'r pwyllgorau i sefydlu trefniadau tymor hirach ar gyfer gwneud newidiadau i Ddeddfau treth Cymru, a fyddai o reidrwydd yn cynnwys ystyried mecanweithiau deddfwriaethol amgen ar gyfer gwneud newidiadau i Ddeddfau treth Cymru. Rwyf hefyd wedi ymrwymo i adolygu gweithrediad ac effaith y Ddeddf hon yn benodol bedair blynedd ar ôl iddi ddod i rym ac mae'r gofyniad hwnnw bellach ar wyneb y Bil. Felly, nid wyf o'r farn bod y gwelliant hwn yn gwbl angenrheidiol gan y bydd y gwaith hwn yn cael ei ddatblygu fel rhan o ystyriaethau ehangach y mecanweithiau deddfwriaethol amgen hynny. Gallai hyn, ond ni fydd o reidrwydd, gynnwys ystyried proses flynyddol neu lai aml o Fil cyllid neu drethiant. Mae gen i amheuon y gallai gosod gofyniad statudol ar Weinidogion Cymru i gyflwyno adroddiad erbyn dyddiad penodol arwain at bwysau gormodol ar unrhyw weithgorau a sefydlir i gyd-fynd â'r amserlen honno, ond er bod gen i'r amheuon hynny, rwyf yn fodlon gofyn i'r Aelodau gefnogi gwelliant 3, oherwydd er y bydd gwaith ar y trefniadau hirdymor hyn yn cael ei wneud beth bynnag, rwy'n barod i fynd un cam ymhellach a dangos fy ymrwymiad drwy nodi hyn ar wyneb y ddeddfwriaeth. Mae gwelliant 4, a gyflwynwyd hefyd gan Llyr Gruffydd ac a gefnogir gan Peter Fox, yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol i Weinidogion Cymru ymgynghori â'r Senedd a phersonau priodol eraill fel rhan o'r adolygiad o'r ddeddfwriaeth, ac rwyf wrth gwrs yn fodlon mynychu unrhyw gyfarfodydd y Pwyllgor Cyllid, neu unrhyw bwyllgor arall a dweud hynny, pan fyddan nhw'n fy ngwahodd i, er mwyn trafod manylion y gwaith sy'n cael ei wneud a'r syniadau sy'n dod i'r amlwg ynghylch beth ddylai'r mecanweithiau tymor hirach fod. Mae'n ymddangos i mi y bydd proses ymgysylltu ac ymgynghori o'r fath yn digwydd fel mater o drefn. Yn ogystal â hyn, byddai Gweinidogion Cymru, fel mater o drefn, yn ymgynghori â phersonau priodol yn ôl yr angen wrth ddatblygu'r adolygiad hwn, a dyna sut yr wyf wedi mynd ati i ddatblygu'r polisi a wnaed ar y Bil hwn, a Deddfau treth Cymru yn fwy eang hyd yma, a byddaf yn sicrhau, gyda'i gilydd, fod y mecanwaith tymor hirach yn iawn i Gymru. Felly, i grynhoi, o ran y gwelliant hwn, er fy mod i'n credu nad yw'n gwbl angenrheidiol gan y byddwn, beth bynnag, yn ysgrifennu at y Senedd i ofyn am eu barn ar yr adolygiad o weithrediad y Ddeddf ac ymgysylltu â phobl briodol wrth ddatblygu'r adolygiad, rwyf wrth gwrs yn barod i ddangos fy ymrwymiad i gydweithio ar ddatblygu'r ddeddfwriaeth hon drwy dderbyn gwelliant 4 a nodi hyn ar wyneb y ddeddfwriaeth. Ac yna i ymateb i rai o'r pryderon ehangach a godwyd yn ystod yr adran benodol hon o'r ddadl y prynhawn yma. O dan amgylchiadau arferol deddfu - hynny yw, pan wneir cyfraith o ganlyniad i ddatblygu polisi ystyriol yn hytrach na'i bod yn ofynnol ar frys neu mewn ymateb i ddigwyddiadau allanol - mae'n iawn, wrth gwrs, i'r Senedd benderfynu pwy sy'n cael ei drethu a sut y cânt eu trethu yn unol â'r egwyddorion cyfansoddiadol a nodir yn Neddf Llywodraeth Cymru 2006. Fodd bynnag, bwriedir i'r pŵer yn y Bil ymdrin ag amgylchiadau eithriadol sy'n unigryw i ddeddfwriaeth treth. I roi enghraifft, cafwyd llawer o achosion lle mae elfennau treth newydd o dreth dir y dreth stamp wedi eu cyflwyno gan Lywodraeth y DU yn syth neu'n fuan iawn ar ôl i gyhoeddiad gael ei wneud, ac mae hyn yn gyffredinol er mwyn atal trethdalwyr rhag rhagweld - hynny yw, cyflwyno trafodyn neu ohirio eu trafodiad fel arall er mwyn elwa ar newid treth a gyhoeddwyd ymlaen llaw. Mae Llywodraeth y DU wedi cydnabod natur unigryw deddfwriaeth treth pan roddodd bŵer i Weinidogion y DU yn adran 109 o Ddeddf Cyllid 2003 i allu gwneud unrhyw newidiadau i ddeddfwriaeth treth tir y dreth stamp sy'n hwylus er budd y cyhoedd. Rhoddodd Senedd yr Alban lawer o bwerau i Lywodraeth yr Alban wneud rheoliadau yn ei Deddfau treth datganoledig, gan gynnwys pennu cyfraddau a bandiau drwy reoliadau gweithdrefn gadarnhaol a wneir. Ac, wrth gwrs, dilynodd y Senedd hon y cynsail a osodwyd gan Senedd yr Alban, a rhoddodd gyfres debyg o bwerau gwneud rheoliadau i Weinidogion Cymru, gan gynnwys pennu cyfraddau drwy reoliadau gweithdrefn gadarnhaol a wneir. Felly, mae'r Bil hwn yn ceisio adeiladu ar y cynseiliau hyn, gan ddatblygu mecanwaith hyblyg ac ystwyth ar gyfer ymateb i amgylchiadau allanol sy'n darparu ateb tymor byr ar gyfer y cam hwn yn ein taith ddatganoli. Bydd fy nghyd-Aelodau yn ymwybodol fy mod i wedi ceisio cyfyngu ar gwmpas y pŵer i wneud rheoliadau yn y Bil hwn gymaint â phosibl. Dim ond pan fydd Gweinidogion Cymru o'r farn bod hynny'n angenrheidiol neu'n briodol, ac yn unol â'r pedwar prawf pwrpas hynny, y caniateir ei ddefnyddio. Ac, yn bwysig iawn, yn ystod y broses graffu ac mewn trafodaethau gydag Aelodau, mae'r pŵer wedi'i gwtogi ymhellach, yn yr hyn y gellir ei ddefnyddio i'w wneud a'r cyfnod y gellir ei ddefnyddio ar ei gyfer. Rwy'n gefnogol iawn o'r angen i edrych ar y trefniadau hirdymor i wneud newidiadau i Ddeddfau treth Cymru, ac yn wir rwyf wedi ymrwymo i ddechrau'r gwaith hwnnw gyda phwyllgorau yn ddiweddarach yn yr hydref. Rwyf hefyd yn dechrau ystyried y cwmpas a phwy sydd angen bod yn rhan o'r gwaith hwnnw. Ond nid yw'n bosibl, ac ni fyddai'n iawn ychwaith, i ni gyflwyno'r trefniadau hyn dros nos heb ymgymryd â'r hyn a fyddai yn ddatblygiad polisi ac ymgysylltu trylwyr iawn hefyd, fel bod gennym y mecanwaith deddfwriaethol mwyaf priodol yn y dyfodol sy'n diwallu ein hanghenion penodol yma yng Nghymru.