English: Simon Thomas - well, I was more than happy, actually, to let my former colleague on the Finance Committee shine by opening this debate. I'm happy to encourage and support other Assembly Members - [ Interruption. ] I'm always more than happy to have the last word, as well, which I've got today. [ Laughter. ] I agree wholeheartedly with the concerns, actually, that you raised about pubs, and you're right that they don't pay traditional business rates. I think we're all aware of that, and that should certainly be looked at. I know they're looking at that in England, and it's probably been long overlooked across the United Kingdom as a whole, and we're now seeing the problems that are happening to pubs because of that. So, that was a good point that you made. Andrew R.T. Davies, you reeled off - I didn't have time to write them down - a long list of projects in Wales and Cardiff that, let's face it, have received considerable investment and are receiving considerable investment. And Andrew said that small variations in tax policy compared with across the border could have a disproportionate effect - a perfectly reasonable point to make. Yes, there may be cases where, because of the changes in this policy and other tax policies, there are people who are paying less tax - that is to be welcomed - but you also have to look at those people and those businesses that will end up paying more. They might be a small number, but if it's a disproportionately high amount that they are paying and if they are the investors in the economy at that level of economic development, then that is a concern. But I do understand - and we discussed this at length in committee - the Welsh Government's position that this is still early days. Of course it is. Nonetheless, Cabinet Secretary, warning signs should always be heeded. As Neil Hamilton said - well, Neil Hamilton supported the motion. You supported the Government amendment, which deletes the motion. You didn't support the 'delete' bit, to be fair. You support Plaid Cymru's amendments as well. I think you're generally happy with this debate today, so I don't think you really mind which way this debate goes, and I think you've won anyway there, Neil. I think you found considerable amusement as well at different points today. But I agree with you that tax competition is not necessarily a bad thing. As a former Conservative, of course, you would say that, and, of course, as a Welsh Conservative myself, I agree with that as well. However, as a Welsh Assembly Member, I think it is a bad thing if that tax competition happens to be detrimental to Wales and positive for England. Of course, that was always the danger that we were facing. Yes, tax devolution is very good for increasing accountability, and it's very good for us here having the levers of power that are necessary to improve our economy. But the flipside of that, which has to be watched, has to be monitored, is to make sure that that doesn't end up with our economy being on a poorer footing. You mentioned quantitative easing. It wasn't just the UK Conservative Government, of course; it was the UK Labour Government that initially introduced the concept of quantitative easing into the British economy. I do think, actually, if you say you don't want quantitative easing, then the cuts would probably have been deeper. So, I think, at that time, it was a tool that was a valuable one for a Government to look at using. Of course, there was the feared effect of higher inflation that hasn't fed through, certainly yet, into the system, but I think that, at that point in time, clearly, we did go through difficult times. But I think you have to recognise it was the Labour Government that introduced that concept. So, something clearly had gone wrong with the economy to require that. Now, as economists are well known for saying, predictions are normally always wrong. We took that evidence on Finance Committee. That doesn't mean that they're not useful. In fact, they are very useful, so long as you recognise that there can be inaccuracy in them and that you're prepared to revise those predictions. I've got to mention Mike Hedges before I close, who quoted - I was looking for the quote - Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr, 1904: 'Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society.' Of course, I think we all agree with that. Nobody here would say that we don't want to pay tax. I would, however, say that, of course, it's not just the raising of the tax that is important; it's the way that that tax is spent that is all important, as well. As the Welsh Government has more powers, more tax powers at its disposal, then it becomes increasingly important that the Welsh Government does prove that it can spend that money as efficiently as possible. David Melding, you spoke about the rebalancing of the UK economy, using London as a resource but making sure we strike out on our own and develop the Welsh economy as best as possible - and that is what tax devolution is all about. You said, Cabinet Secretary, that you were prepared to monitor, to evaluate, and to make changes if you think that the policies that are in place relating to tax rises are wrong. Well, we're receiving a lot of concerns from businesses that they feel they are wrong. I would urge you to keep this situation under review and to make sure that the Welsh Government does act to change any tax policies that do prove to be uncompetitive to our economy in the future.
Welsh: Simon Thomas - wel, roeddwn yn fwy na pharod, mewn gwirionedd, i adael i fy nghyn gyd-Aelod ar y Pwyllgor Cyllid i ddisgleirio drwy agor y ddadl. Rwy'n hapus i annog a chynorthwyo Aelodau Cynulliad eraill - [ Torri ar draws. ] Rwyf bob amser yn fwy na pharod i gael y gair olaf, yn ogystal, ac rwyf yn ei gael heddiw. [ Chwerthin. ] Cytunaf i'r carn â'r pryderon, mewn gwirionedd, y sonioch chi amdanynt ynglŷn â thafarndai, ac rydych yn gywir nad ydynt yn talu ardrethi busnes traddodiadol. Credaf ein bod i gyd yn ymwybodol o hynny, ac yn sicr dylid edrych ar hynny. Gwn eu bod yn edrych ar hynny yn Lloegr, ac mae'n debyg ei fod wedi'i anwybyddu ers amser hir ledled y Deyrnas Unedig, ac rydym bellach yn gweld y problemau sy'n digwydd i dafarndai oherwydd hynny. Felly, roedd hwnnw'n bwynt da a wnaethoch. Andrew R.T. Davies, fe wnaethoch nodi - ni chefais amser i'w hysgrifennu - rhestr hir o brosiectau yng Nghymru a Chaerdydd sydd, gadewch inni wynebu'r gwir, wedi cael buddsoddiad sylweddol ac sy'n cael buddsoddiad sylweddol. A dywedodd Andrew y gallai amrywiadau bach yn y polisi treth o'i gymharu â dros y ffin gael effaith anghymesur - pwynt cwbl resymol i'w wneud. Efallai y gallai fod achosion lle y ceir pobl sy'n talu llai o dreth oherwydd y newidiadau yn y polisi hwn a'r polisïau treth eraill - mae hynny i'w groesawu - ond rhaid ichi edrych hefyd ar y bobl a'r busnesau a fydd yn gorfod talu mwy. Efallai fod eu nifer yn fach, ond os ydynt yn gorfod talu swm anghymesur o uchel ac os ydynt yn fuddsoddwyr yn yr economi ar y lefel honno o ddatblygu economaidd, mae hynny'n destun pryder. Ond rwy'n deall - a buom yn trafod hyn yn helaeth yn y pwyllgor - safbwynt Llywodraeth Cymru ei bod yn ddyddiau cynnar. Wrth gwrs ei bod. Serch hynny, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, dylid rhoi sylw i arwyddion rhybudd bob amser. Fel y dywedodd Neil Hamilton - wel, roedd Neil Hamilton yn cefnogi'r cynnig. Roeddech yn cefnogi gwelliant y Llywodraeth, sy'n dileu'r cynnig. Nid oeddech yn cefnogi'r rhan 'dileu', a bod yn deg. Rydych yn cefnogi gwelliannau Plaid Cymru yn ogystal. Credaf eich bod yn fodlon at ei gilydd â'r ddadl hon heddiw, felly nid wyf yn credu bod llawer o ots gennych pa ffordd yr aiff y ddadl hon, a chredaf eich bod wedi ennill beth bynnag o ran hynny, Neil. Credaf eich bod wedi cael eich difyrru ar wahanol adegau heddiw. Ond rwy'n cytuno â chi nad yw cystadleuaeth dreth yn beth drwg o reidrwydd. Fel cyn Geidwadwr, wrth gwrs, fe fyddech chi'n dweud hynny, ac wrth gwrs, fel Ceidwadwr Cymreig fy hun, rwy'n cytuno â hynny. Fodd bynnag, fel Aelod o Gynulliad Cymru, credaf ei fod yn beth drwg os yw cystadleuaeth dreth yn digwydd bod yn andwyol i Gymru a chadarnhaol i Loegr. Wrth gwrs, dyna oedd y perygl roeddem yn ei wynebu bob amser. Ydy, mae datganoli treth yn dda ar gyfer cynyddu atebolrwydd, ac mae'n dda iawn i ni yma gael yr awenau grym sydd eu hangen i wella ein heconomi. Ond ochr arall hynny, sy'n rhaid ei wylio, sy'n rhaid ei fonitro, yw gwneud yn siŵr nad yw'n arwain at osod ein heconomi ar sylfaen lai cadarn. Fe sonioch am esmwytho meintiol. Nid Llywodraeth Geidwadol y DU yn unig ydoedd, wrth gwrs; Llywodraeth Lafur y DU a gyflwynodd y cysyniad o esmwytho meintiol yn wreiddiol i economi Prydain. Mewn gwirionedd, os ydych yn dweud nad ydych eisiau esmwytho meintiol, mae'n debyg y byddai'r toriadau wedi bod yn ddyfnach. Felly, ar yr adeg honno, roedd yn arf gwerthfawr i Lywodraeth ystyried ei ddefnyddio. Wrth gwrs, roedd yna ofn effaith chwyddiant uwch nad yw wedi bwydo drwodd i'r system eto yn sicr, ond ar yr adeg honno, yn amlwg, aethom drwy gyfnod anodd. Ond credaf fod yn rhaid i chi gydnabod mai Llywodraeth Lafur a gyflwynodd y cysyniad hwnnw. Felly, mae'n amlwg fod rhywbeth wedi mynd o'i le gyda'r economi i wneud hynny'n ofynnol. Nawr, fel y mae economegwyr yn enwog am ei ddweud, mae rhagfynegiadau fel rheol bob amser yn anghywir. Cawsom y dystiolaeth honno yn y Pwyllgor Cyllid. Nid yw hynny'n golygu nad ydynt yn ddefnyddiol. Mewn gwirionedd, maent yn ddefnyddiol iawn, cyn belled â'ch bod yn cydnabod y gallent gynnwys gwallau o'u mewn a'ch bod yn barod i adolygu'r rhagfynegiadau hynny. Cyn gorffen, rhaid i mi sôn am Mike Hedges, a ddyfynnodd - euthum i chwilio am y dyfyniad - Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr, 1904: Trethi yw'r pris a dalwn am gymdeithas wâr. Wrth gwrs, rwy'n credu ein bod i gyd yn cytuno â hynny. Ni fyddai neb yma'n dweud nad ydym am dalu treth. Buaswn yn deud, fodd bynnag wrth gwrs, nad codi treth ynddo'i hun yn unig sy'n bwysig; mae'r ffordd y caiff y dreth ei gwario yn hollbwysig hefyd. Wrth i Lywodraeth Cymru gael mwy o bwerau, a mwy o bwerau codi treth at ei defnydd, daw'n fwyfwy pwysig iddi brofi y gall wario'r arian mor effeithlon â phosibl. David Melding, fe siaradoch chi am ailgydbwyso economi'r DU, gan ddefnyddio Llundain fel adnodd ond gan wneud yn siŵr ein bod yn bwrw iddi ein hunain i ddatblygu economi Cymru gystal ag y bo modd - a dyna yw hanfod datganoli treth. Fe ddywedoch chi, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, eich bod yn barod i fonitro, gwerthuso a gwneud newidiadau os ydych yn credu bod y polisïau sydd ar waith mewn perthynas â chodiadau treth yn anghywir. Wel, rydym yn clywed llawer o bryderon gan fusnesau eu bod yn teimlo eu bod yn anghywir. Rwy'n eich annog i gadw'r sefyllfa hon dan arolwg ac i wneud yn siŵr fod Llywodraeth Cymru yn gweithredu i newid unrhyw bolisïau treth sy'n profi'n anghystadleuol i'n heconomi yn y dyfodol.