English: It's a pleasure to follow on from the last speaker and also from my Chair of the committee, John Griffiths. I stand simply to support all the points that have been made in terms of the report that we brought forward and the recommendations, because I think the report is actually very balanced. It isn't strident or ideological or fixated on a certain end point. It listened very carefully to the evidence that came in front of us. It very much reflects the cross-party nature of that committee and different political and personal perspectives of those who sat on that committee - I have to say, very different personal and political perspectives of those who sat on the committee. It doesn't, actually, seek wholesale devolution of all benefits, and certainly not in one fell swoop, either. It actually looks for practical ways in which significant but targeted elements of benefits could be devolved, as well as significantly greater administrative devolution of benefits. And why? With the sole purpose of improving the lot of people in Wales. And, do you know, from a personal perspective, I've said repeatedly in this Chamber, from my brand of socialism, I want to see the benefits system supporting people in Swansea and Southport and Stockport and everywhere else equally, and we have to recognise - and I depart from the committee in a sense, here; my perspective is that, for the last 10 years, we've had a punitive regime. I've seen the evidence of it in my own constituency. For me, that is unarguable. But we couldn't equally say that some future Government in Wales, heaven help us, Mary, and John on the monitor there, would not have a benign approach to the benefits system and social security - a future Government in Wales might do it, but at least we'd have the mechanisms here and closer to the people that we could argue, 'Why are you doing what you're doing?' as opposed to some distant Whitehall Ministers and Whitehall mandarins who say, 'This is the way it's going to be, and you can tinker around the edges but that's your lot.' So, I would argue to the Minister that it's a practical approach that is set out within this, recognising the evidence we consistently heard time after time. People came in front of us as a committee and didn't argue, actually, for wholesale devolution, didn't argue from an ideological base; they were people who were confronted with the hard reality of the people that they try to support, who were in work as well as out of work receiving benefits, and how we could better put a system in place in Wales that would actually be to their good. In May 2020, the Deputy Minister for Housing and Local Government in front of us here, Hannah, told the committee that, 'Because of the uncertain times of the pandemic, now does not appear to be the best time, both in terms of available resource and availability of evidence, to consider fully long-term changes to social security.' I have some sympathy with that on the pandemic in front of us and the resources, I do; I don't have sympathy with the element that talks about the evidence, because we did a lot of work on that committee that I think would help the Government do whatever they need to finesse the evidence, and actually just go on with it. I don't, by the way, underestimate what we'll get back from the UK Government on this, but we should ask. We should get a position and then put it there, and in the next Senedd come back and put that position again until we get a Government in London that will listen. The Minister also said that she would revisit this important issue again when the Welsh Government has been able to fully reconsider any changes that have been made to the UK social security system and how the UK Government social security system has been able to meet the challenges in Wales of the global crisis, and had the opportunity to review any evidence for how the crisis has been met by the different models operating for devolved social security arrangements in other devolved nations. I recognise the grass was growing longer and longer as I went through that, and that would be my ask of the Minister in support of the Chair and other members of the committee who came to very clear recommendations and conclusions on this. There are resource constraints at the moment without a doubt, and it wasn't simply COVID, but what the EU withdrawal process has been doing to our civil service, and so on; I get that. But we really need to move ahead with this now, and as I say once again in closing, not for ideological reasons but purely for practical measures that will improve the lot of my constituents and people across Wales, we should be making these decisions closer to home, closer to home in Wales.
Welsh: Mae'n bleser gennyf ddilyn y siaradwr diwethaf a hefyd fy Nghadeirydd ar y pwyllgor, John Griffiths. Rwy'n codi'n syml iawn i gefnogi'r holl bwyntiau sydd wedi'u gwneud mewn perthynas â'r adroddiad a gyflwynwyd gennym a'r argymhellion, oherwydd credaf fod yr adroddiad yn gytbwys iawn mewn gwirionedd. Nid yw'n rhyfygus nac yn ideolegol nac yn ffocysu'n ormodol ar bwynt terfyn penodol. Gwrandawodd yn ofalus iawn ar y dystiolaeth a ddaeth o'n blaenau. Mae'n adlewyrchu'n fawr natur drawsbleidiol y pwyllgor a safbwyntiau gwleidyddol a phersonol gwahanol y rhai a oedd yn aelodau o'r pwyllgor - rhaid imi ddweud, safbwyntiau personol a gwleidyddol gwahanol iawn y rhai a oedd yn aelodau o'r pwyllgor. Nid yw'n galw am ddatganoli pob un o'r budd-daliadau'n gyfan gwbl, ac yn sicr nid ar unwaith. Mae'n edrych am ffyrdd ymarferol o ddatganoli elfennau arwyddocaol ond wedi'u targedu o fudd-daliadau, yn ogystal â datganoli cryn dipyn yn fwy o'r gwaith o weinyddu budd-daliadau. A pham? Yn unswydd er mwyn gwella bywydau pobl yng Nghymru. Wyddoch chi, o safbwynt personol, rwyf wedi dweud dro ar ôl tro yn y Siambr hon, ar sail fy mrand i o sosialaeth, rwyf am weld y system fudd-daliadau yn cefnogi pobl yn Abertawe a Southport a Stockport ac ym mhobman arall yn gyfartal, ac mae'n rhaid inni gydnabod - ac rwy'n gwyro oddi wrth y pwyllgor ar un ystyr; fy safbwynt i yw ein bod, dros y 10 mlynedd diwethaf, wedi cael cyfundrefn gosbol. Gwelais dystiolaeth ohoni yn fy etholaeth fy hun. I mi, mae hynny'n ddi-os. Ond ni allem ddweud yn yr un modd na fyddai gan ryw Lywodraeth yng Nghymru yn y dyfodol, duw a'n helpo, Mary, a John ar y monitor yn y fan acw, ymagwedd ddiniwed tuag at y system fudd-daliadau a nawdd cymdeithasol - efallai y bydd Llywodraeth yng Nghymru yn y dyfodol yn ei wneud, ond o leiaf byddai gennym y mecanweithiau yma ac yn nes at y bobl fel y gallem ddadlau, 'Pam eich bod yn gwneud yr hyn rydych yn ei wneud?' yn hytrach na Gweinidogion pell yn Whitehall a mandariniaid Whitehall sy'n dweud 'Dyma'r ffordd y mae'n mynd i fod, a gallwch dincran o amgylch yr ymylon ond dyna fyddwch chi'n ei gael.' Felly, byddwn yn dadlau wrth y Gweinidog mai dull ymarferol a geir yn hyn, gan gydnabod y dystiolaeth a glywsom yn gyson dro ar ôl tro. Daeth pobl ger ein bron fel pwyllgor ac nid oeddent yn dadlau, mewn gwirionedd, dros ddatganoli'n gyfan gwbl, nid oeddent yn dadlau ar sail ideolegol; roeddent yn bobl a oedd yn wynebu realiti caled y bobl y maent yn ceisio'u cefnogi, a oedd mewn gwaith yn ogystal ag yn ddi-waith ac yn derbyn budd-daliadau, a sut y gallem roi system ar waith yn well yng Nghymru a fyddai er eu lles mewn gwirionedd. Ym mis Mai 2020, dywedodd y Dirprwy Weinidog Tai a Llywodraeth Leol o'n blaenau yma, Hannah, wrth y pwyllgor, 'Oherwydd cyfnod ansicr y pandemig, nid yw'n ymddangos mai nawr yw'r adeg orau, o ran yr adnoddau sydd ar gael ac argaeledd tystiolaeth, i ystyried newidiadau hirdymor llawn i nawdd cymdeithasol.' Mae gennyf rywfaint o gydymdeimlad â hynny ar y pandemig o'n blaenau a'r adnoddau, yn sicr; nid oes gennyf gydymdeimlad â'r elfen sy'n sôn am y dystiolaeth, oherwydd fe wnaethom lawer o waith ar y pwyllgor y credaf y byddai'n helpu'r Llywodraeth i wneud beth bynnag sydd angen iddynt ei wneud i fireinio'r dystiolaeth, ac i fwrw ymlaen ag ef. Gyda llaw, nid wyf yn tanbrisio'r hyn a gawn yn ôl gan Lywodraeth y DU ar hyn, ond fe ddylem ofyn. Dylem gael safbwynt a'i roi yno, a dod yn ôl yn y Senedd nesaf a rhoi'r safbwynt hwnnw eto nes inni gael Llywodraeth yn Llundain a fydd yn gwrando. Dywedodd y Gweinidog hefyd y byddai'n ailedrych ar y mater pwysig hwn eto pan fydd Llywodraeth Cymru wedi gallu ailystyried yn llawn unrhyw newidiadau a wnaed i system nawdd cymdeithasol y DU a sut y mae system nawdd cymdeithasol Llywodraeth y DU wedi gallu ymateb i heriau'r argyfwng byd-eang yng Nghymru, a chael cyfle i adolygu unrhyw dystiolaeth ar sut y mae'r gwahanol fodelau sy'n gweithredu ar gyfer trefniadau nawdd cymdeithasol datganoledig mewn gwledydd datganoledig eraill wedi mynd i'r afael â'r argyfwng. Rwy'n cydnabod bod y glaswellt yn tyfu'n uwch ac yn uwch wrth imi fynd drwy hynny, a dyna fyddwn i'n ei ofyn i'r Gweinidog i gefnogi'r Cadeirydd ac aelodau eraill o'r pwyllgor a luniodd argymhellion a chasgliadau clir iawn ar hyn. Ceir cyfyngiadau ar adnoddau ar hyn o bryd yn ddi-os, ac nid COVID yn unig, ond yr hyn y mae proses ymadael â'r UE wedi bod yn ei wneud i'n gwasanaeth sifil, ac yn y blaen; rwy'n deall hynny. Ond mae gwir angen inni symud ymlaen ar hyn yn awr, ac fel y dywedaf unwaith eto wrth gloi, nid am resymau ideolegol ond o ran y mesurau ymarferol a fydd yn gwella bywydau llawer o fy etholwyr a phobl ledled Cymru, dylem fod yn gwneud y penderfyniadau hyn yn nes at adref, yn nes at adref yng Nghymru.