English: Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her statement? I know that she's got some long-standing views on this issue, and it's probably the hook by which she cornered Carwyn to get into his Cabinet - it surely helped to broker their deal. But when it comes to evidence-based policy making, I really cannot understand why the Cabinet Secretary is pursuing this particular issue. We heard evidence, as an Assembly, from Professor David Reynolds, an eminent education expert and adviser to the Welsh Government, just six months ago, and the evidence suggested that a focus on reducing class sizes to 25 was not the way to improve standards, and in terms of delivering results on investments, there were much more productive ways of spending money in primary education. It's not just David Reynolds - you've got Her Majesty's chief inspector of schools at Estyn also saying that classroom size, and I quote, 'doesn't seem to be a big factor in our inspection outcomes'. In fact, he says that reducing classes to 25 or under is going to make little difference. And the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, which has been the subject of much debate in this Chamber recently, particularly since the Programme for International Student Assessment results were published, has also said, and I quote, that 'the size of the class is unrelated to the school system's overall performance'. So, you've got many voices - a chorus of voices - that are saying, 'Look, if you want the best bang for your buck, spending cash on reducing class sizes, whilst very attractive and no doubt may make managing classes easier, is not the best way to invest that money.' In fact, the Sutton Trust, a formative education charity, dedicated to improving social mobility - an aim that we all share in this Chamber - through education, has said that it is one of the least effective ways of improving school performance. Of course, there have been many on the Government backbenches who have expressed concerns about this policy. None of them are here today - I wonder whether this is why there's been a bit of an exodus from the Chamber on the Government backbenches during your statement. So, I just wonder, Minister, what advice you sought and what advice was given by Government officials in the development of this particular policy, or was this something that you were determined to steamroller through, regardless of the advice that you might be given by officials? Can I also ask, because you didn't make any reference to them in your statement, what advice was sought from the regional education consortia in the development of the policy? I'm sure that they would have many other priority areas that they might wish to spend £36 million in had they been given the option. I also wonder about the arithmetic and how you've worked out that it's £36 million that's required in order to deliver the aims of your policy. We know that you've split this cash now over a four-year period, and you've split it in two between capital expenditure and investment on the revenue side, but, surely, if there's going to be investment on the revenue side, there are going to be continuous costs beyond the four-year window, which you appear to have been committed to. Can you tell us how you expect those schools - ? Do you want to just pull the plug on any additional revenue costs and any additional staffing that they've put in place in order to achieve this policy post that four-year period? I mean, how are you expecting them to be able to cope? And what rationale do you have for the £20 million? It looks to me as though you've just put a finger up in the air and said, 'I think it's about £20 million that we're going to need to invest in school buildings.' I've seen no evidence anywhere in Wales that that is the sum of money that would need to be given and invested in our school system in order to achieve this particular policy, and I can't see either any evidence that it's £16 million that would be required in order to reduce class sizes across Wales to make sure that they're all under 25. So, I'd very much appreciate seeing some more evidence around that from you. In addition, I just wonder if you could tell us about the rationale behind effectively making the call for more teachers, and putting further pressure on teacher recruitment, at a time when we're beginning to see the unfolding of a bit of a crisis when it comes to teacher recruitment here in Wales. We know that for certain subjects in secondary schools there are problems, but there are also problems on the primary school end as well, particularly in the Welsh-medium sector, where we've seen evidence that has just been published very recently showing that the number of students completing teacher training through the medium of Welsh has been falling - in fact, it has almost halved over the past three years. That's a big concern to me, and I just do not know how you're going to achieve these additional teachers, who need to be going into the system anyway to refresh those who are leaving - who are departing sometimes because they are discouraged and sometimes because it's a job that they don't feel that they want to do anymore, or because they're retiring. How are you going to recruit these additional staff in order to plug these gaps and realise this particular policy? I don't know what assessment you've made of local authorities' ability to be able to construct extra classrooms on particular school sites either. I see no evidence - no evidence whatsoever - that this is the right way forward. Can you tell me as well, given the Estyn report's publication today, which identified the quality of teaching and leadership as being the two big issues that it found through its inspection processes as being the problems and challenges in Wales, what proportion of this cash, if any, is going to be invested in leadership and is going to be invested in continuing professional development? I note in your statement that you make reference to some of the other actions that the Government is taking, but you didn't mention the national leadership academy, you didn't mention some of the other incentives that you might want to give to bring new people into the teaching profession, but those are things that I believe are more pressing and need to be addressed. So I just wonder what you are doing to address those problems as well, because they, to me, seem to be far more pressing than trying to reduce class sizes to 25 when the evidence just isn't there to support your claims that this is going to be the big game-changer. I also have to say, Cabinet Secretary -
Welsh: A gaf i ddiolch i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet am ei datganiad? Gwn fod ganddi farn gadarn ar y mater hwn, ac mae'n debyg mai dyna'r arf y gwnaeth hi ei ddefnyddio i gornelu Carwyn i fod yn rhan o'i Gabinet - yn sicr roedd hyn wedi helpu i drefnu eu bargen. Ond pan ddaw at lunio polisïau yn seiliedig ar dystiolaeth, ni allaf ddeall mewn gwirionedd pam mae Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet yn mynd ar drywydd y mater penodol hwn. Clywsom dystiolaeth, fel Cynulliad, dim ond chwe mis yn ôl, gan yr Athro David Reynolds, arbenigwr addysg enwog a chynghorydd i Lywodraeth Cymru. Awgrymodd y dystiolaeth nad canolbwyntio ar leihau maint dosbarthiadau i 25 oedd y ffordd i wella safonau, ac o ran sicrhau canlyniadau ar fuddsoddiadau, roedd ffyrdd llawer mwy cynhyrchiol o wario arian mewn addysg gynradd. Nid David Reynolds yw'r unig un sydd â'r farn hon - mae prif arolygydd ysgolion Ei Mawrhydi yn Estyn hefyd yn dweud, ac rwy'n dyfynnu, nad yw maint dosbarth yn ymddangos i fod yn ffactor mawr yn ein canlyniadau arolygu. Yn wir, dywed mai dim ond ychydig bach o wahaniaeth y bydd lleihau dosbarthiadau i 25 yn ei wneud. Ac mae'r Sefydliad ar gyfer Cydweithrediad a Datblygiad Economaidd, sydd wedi bod yn destun llawer o ddadlau yn y Siambr hon yn ddiweddar, yn enwedig ers cyhoeddi canlyniadau'r Rhaglen Ryngwladol Asesu Myfyrwyr, hefyd wedi dweud, ac rwy'n dyfynnu, bod maint y dosbarth yn amherthnasol i berfformiad cyffredinol y system ysgol. Felly, mae gennych lawer o bobl - côr o leisiau - sy'n dweud, 'Edrychwch, os ydych chi am gael y gwrth gorau am eich arian, er mor ddeniadol yw gwario arian ar leihau meintiau dosbarth ac y byddai heb amheuaeth yn gwneud rheoli dosbarthiadau'n haws, nid hynny yw'r ffordd orau o fuddsoddi'r arian hwnnw.' Yn wir, mae Ymddiriedolaeth Sutton, elusen addysg ffurfiannol, sy'n ymroddedig i wella symudedd cymdeithasol - nod yr ydym ni i gyd yn ei rhannu yn y Siambr hon - drwy addysg, wedi dweud bod hynny yn un o'r ffyrdd lleiaf effeithiol o wella perfformiad yr ysgol. Wrth gwrs, mae llawer ar feinciau cefn y Llywodraeth wedi mynegi pryderon am y polisi hwn. Nid oes yr un ohonyn nhw yma heddiw - tybed ai dyma pam mae rhai o'r Siambr wedi gadael meinciau cefn y Llywodraeth yn ystod eich datganiad. Felly, tybed, Weinidog, pa gyngor ydych chi wedi'i geisio a pha gyngor a roddwyd gan swyddogion y Llywodraeth yn natblygiad y polisi penodol hwn, neu a oedd hyn yn rhywbeth yr oeddech chi'n benderfynol o'i gyflwyno, yn anad dim, heb ystyried y cyngor efallai a roddir i chi gan swyddogion? A gaf i hefyd ofyn, gan na wnaethoch chi unrhyw gyfeiriad ato yn eich datganiad, pa gyngor a geisiwyd gan y consortia addysg rhanbarthol yn natblygiad y polisi? Rwy'n siŵr y byddai ganddo lawer o feysydd blaenoriaeth eraill y bydd o bosibl yn dymuno gwario £36 miliwn arnyn nhw pe byddai'r dewis ganddo. Rwyf hefyd yn cwestiynu'r rhifyddeg a sut yr ydych chi wedi cyfrifo mai £36 miliwn sydd ei angen i gyflawni amcanion eich polisi. Gwyddom eich bod wedi rhannu'r arian hwn yn awr dros gyfnod o bedair blynedd, a'ch bod wedi'i rannu'n ddau rhwng gwariant cyfalaf a buddsoddi mewn refeniw. Ond, yn sicr, os ydych am fuddsoddi mewn refeniw, mae costau parhaus am fod y tu hwnt i'r cyfnod pedair blynedd, y mae'n ymddangos eich bod chi wedi ymrwymo iddo. A wnewch chi ddweud wrthym sut yr ydych chi'n disgwyl i'r ysgolion hynny - ? A ydych chi eisiau diddymu unrhyw gostau refeniw ychwanegol ac unrhyw aelodau ychwanegol o staff y mae nhw wedi'u darparu er mwyn cyflawni'r polisi hwn ar ôl y cyfnod pedair blynedd? Hynny yw, sut yr ydych chi'n disgwyl y gallant ymdopi? A beth yw eich rhesymeg ar gyfer y £20 miliwn? Mae'n ymddangos i mi fel pe baech chi wedi rhoi bys i fyny yn yr awyr a dweud, 'rwy'n credu mai tua £20 miliwn fydd ei angen arnom i fuddsoddi mewn adeiladau ysgolion.' Ni welais unrhyw dystiolaeth yn unrhyw le yng Nghymru mai dyna'r swm o arian y byddai angen ei ddyrannu a'i fuddsoddi yn ein system ysgolion er mwyn cyflawni'r polisi penodol hwn. Ac ni allaf weld unrhyw dystiolaeth ychwaith mai £16 miliwn y byddai ei angen i leihau maint dosbarthiadau ledled Cymru i wneud yn siŵr eu bod nhw i gyd â llai na 25 o blant. Felly, byddwn i'n gwerthfawrogi'n fawr cael gweld mwy o dystiolaeth gennych chi ynglŷn â hynny. Yn ogystal â hyn, tybed a wnewch chi ddweud wrthym am y rhesymeg y tu ôl galw am fwy o athrawon, a rhoi pwysau ychwanegol ar recriwtio athrawon, ar adeg pan fo argyfwng ar fin digwydd o ran recriwtio athrawon yma yng Nghymru. Gwyddom fod problemau gyda rhai pynciau mewn ysgolion uwchradd, ond ceir hefyd broblemau yng nghyd-destun ysgolion cynradd, yn enwedig yn y sector cyfrwng Cymraeg. Gwelwyd tystiolaeth sydd newydd gael ei chyhoeddi yn ddiweddar iawn sy'n dangos bod cwymp wedi bod yn nifer y myfyrwyr sy'n cwblhau hyfforddiant athrawon trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg - yn wir, mae wedi haneru bron yn ystod y tair blynedd ddiwethaf. Mae hynny'n bryder mawr i mi, ac ni wn sut yr ydych chi'n mynd i ddarparu'r athrawon ychwanegol hyn, y mae angen iddyn nhw fod yn rhan o'r system beth bynnag er mwyn cymryd lle'r rhai hynny sy'n gadael - sy'n gadael weithiau oherwydd y cânt eu digalonni ac weithiau am ei bod yn swydd nad ydyn nhw'n teimlo ei bod yn dymuno ei chyflawni mwyach, neu oherwydd eu bod yn ymddeol. Sut ydych chi'n mynd i recriwtio'r aelodau ychwanegol hyn o staff er mwyn llenwi'r bylchau hyn a gwireddu'r polisi penodol hwn? Ni wn ychwaith ba asesiad yr ydych chi wedi'i wneud o allu awdurdodau lleol i adeiladu ystafelloedd dosbarth ychwanegol ar safleoedd ysgolion arbennig. Nid wyf yn gweld unrhyw dystiolaeth - dim tystiolaeth o gwbl - mai hon yw'r ffordd gywir ymlaen. A wnewch chi ddweud wrthyf hefyd, o ystyried cyhoeddiad yr adroddiad Estyn heddiw, a oedd yn nodi mai ansawdd yr addysgu ac arweinyddiaeth oedd y ddau fater mawr y canfuwyd drwy ei brosesau arolygu fel y problemau a'r heriau yng Nghymru, pa gyfran o'r arian hwn, os o gwbl, sydd am gael ei buddsoddi mewn arweinyddiaeth a'i buddsoddi mewn datblygiad proffesiynol parhaus? Rwy'n sylwi yn eich datganiad eich bod yn cyfeirio at rai o'r camau eraill y mae'r Llywodraeth yn eu cymryd, ond nid ydych wedi sôn am yr academi genedlaethol ar gyfer arweinyddiaeth, nid ydych chi wedi sôn am rai o'r cymhellion eraill efallai y byddwch chi'n dymuno eu cynnig i ddenu pobl i'r proffesiwn addysgu, ond y mae'r rheini'n bethau sy'n bwysicach, yn fy marn i, ac sydd angen mynd i'r afael â nhw. Felly, tybed beth ydych chi'n ei wneud i ymdrin â'r problemau hynny hefyd, oherwydd eu bod nhw, i mi, yn ymddangos yn llawer pwysicach na cheisio lleihau maint dosbarthiadau i 25 pan na cheir tystiolaeth i gefnogi eich honiadau fod hyn yn mynd i fod y chwyldro sydd ei angen. Mae'n rhaid i mi hefyd ddweud, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet -