English: Thank you, and I thank the Chair for the introduction of the debate. I certainly think, with the Chair's backdrop, she's doing quite a lot to promote living in tourist areas of Wales. I'm not sure whether that's for second homes or main homes, but she also gave, I thought, a very good description of the petition, which is more nuanced than I'd appreciated from reading the shorter written description that we had. Siân spoke just now about the particular circumstances in Gwynedd and referred to a house-to-price earnings ratio of 5.9, but the average for the UK as a whole is 8. We heard from Delyth about particular difficulties with second homes and holiday homes in south-east Wales that we both represent, but looking at the official data, there's actually a very small number of wards where there is high incidence of that ownership in our region. And I would say, if you're looking at rural areas, there's been an issue, really, across large swathes of Europe for at least a century in terms of rural depopulation, and some of those areas have seen increasing levels of second-home ownership, partly because some people leave those areas but retain a property there, while also living elsewhere. And I think there's a lot of scapegoating of second-home owners, and we've seen some of that during the COVID crisis. But here also, the wording of the written petition says that people are being priced out because of all these second-home owners coming in. I'm sure that there are some particular localised areas where that does happen, and I think social housing, for rent and shared ownership, where people have to have it as a main residence, is one way of mitigating that. But there is a broader range of issues. The idea that somehow local authorities are going to be able to control the housing market following urgent discussions with the Welsh Government, I think, is probably unrealistic. A whole range of economic influences happen over the housing market, and local government and others influence that market through a range of ways. In Gwynedd, the example given, where I think most of the petitioners are from, a lot of people say that, yes, they'd like to keep their main residence, that they've grown up there, but, actually, it's the dearth of employment opportunities that, in many cases, lead people to leave the area, and then some of those houses are then taken up by second-home owners. Similarly, in Gwynedd, there's an education policy in terms of the Welsh language where there's 100 mainstream schools, and it says they're all bilingual, but, actually, when they say bilingual, that's how they style it; elsewhere in Wales I think we would call those Welsh-medium schools. In addition, they have this policy of people not having English lessons until they're aged seven or eight. And if you're in that area and there are a lot of Welsh language essential jobs elsewhere in Wales, then disproportionately people who are learning Welsh in those areas through that schooling - perhaps a higher number of those may move to take those Welsh-essential jobs elsewhere. Similarly, if you've got people who want English-medium education for their children, and are unable to get it in Gwynedd - they've got their main residence there and they learnt through English themselves - some of those people, then, move away, and no longer have a main residence there, and some of those homes again are taken up by second-home owners. Other people, who are moving in perhaps from an urban area elsewhere, over time, may be looking to move there permanently, but in some cases won't move there permanently as a main residence until their children have finished school, because it is quite a hurdle for people to get over for their children to have to learn through the medium of Welsh. And I know there are five Welsh language centres where people go for two to three months of immersion, but that doesn't function over year 9, and many people may choose not to do that. So, I think Gwynedd council and others also need to look at their policies and the impact that has - although I'd like to be clear in Abolish that we do believe that local authorities should be able to determine their policies for Welsh language in school, and we do think there should be funding for free schools to give people and parents a choice if they wish to make a different decision. But I think this is a complex area. I wish the petitioners well, but I don't believe it's right to scapegoat second home owners, and I'm sceptical that the situations they're worried about will be resolved by the policies proposed.
Welsh: Diolch, a diolch i'r Cadeirydd am gyflwyno'r ddadl. Rwy'n sicr yn meddwl, gyda chefndir y Cadeirydd, ei bod yn gwneud cryn dipyn i hyrwyddo byw mewn ardaloedd twristaidd yng Nghymru. Nid wyf yn siŵr a yw hynny ar gyfer ail gartrefi neu brif gartrefi, ond rhoddodd ddisgrifiad da iawn o'r ddeiseb hefyd yn fy marn i, sy'n fwy manwl nag a ddeallais o ddarllen y disgrifiad ysgrifenedig byrrach a gawsom. Siaradodd Siân yn awr am yr amgylchiadau penodol yng Ngwynedd a chyfeiriodd at gymhareb enillion a phrisiau tai o 5.9, ond y cyfartaledd ar gyfer y DU gyfan yw 8. Clywsom gan Delyth am anawsterau penodol gydag ail gartrefi a chartrefi gwyliau yn ne-ddwyrain Cymru a gynrychiolir gan y ddau ohonom, ond o edrych ar y data swyddogol, dim ond mewn nifer fach iawn o wardiau y ceir y berchnogaeth honno ar raddfa fawr yn ein rhanbarth. Ac os edrychwch ar ardaloedd gwledig, byddwn yn dweud bod problem wedi bod ar draws rhannau helaeth o Ewrop mewn gwirionedd ers o leiaf ganrif o ran diboblogi gwledig, ac mae rhai o'r ardaloedd hynny wedi gweld lefelau cynyddol o berchnogaeth ail gartref, yn rhannol am fod rhai pobl yn gadael yr ardaloedd ond yn cadw eiddo yno, tra'n byw mewn mannau eraill hefyd. Ac rwy'n credu bod llawer o berchnogion ail gartrefi'n cael eu gwneud yn fychod dihangol, ac rydym wedi gweld rhywfaint o hynny yn ystod argyfwng COVID. Ond yma hefyd, mae geiriad y ddeiseb ysgrifenedig yn dweud bod prisiau y tu hwnt i gyrraedd pobl oherwydd bod yr holl berchnogion ail gartref hyn yn dod i mewn. Rwy'n siŵr bod hynny'n digwydd mewn rhai ardaloedd lleol penodol, ac rwy'n credu bod tai cymdeithasol, wedi'u gosod ar rent a rhanberchenogaeth, lle mae'n rhaid iddynt fod yn brif breswylfa, yn un ffordd o liniaru hynny. Ond mae ystod ehangach o faterion yn codi. Mae'n debyg bod y syniad y bydd awdurdodau lleol rywsut yn gallu rheoli'r farchnad dai yn dilyn trafodaethau brys gyda Llywodraeth Cymru yn afrealistig. Mae ystod eang o ddylanwadau economaidd yn digwydd ar y farchnad dai, ac mae llywodraeth leol ac eraill yn dylanwadu ar y farchnad honno mewn amrywiaeth o ffyrdd. Yng Ngwynedd, yr enghraifft a roddwyd, lle rwy'n credu bod y rhan fwyaf o'r deisebwyr yn byw, mae llawer o bobl yn dweud yr hoffent gadw eu prif breswylfa, eu bod wedi tyfu i fyny yno, ond mewn gwirionedd, prinder cyfleoedd cyflogaeth sy'n arwain pobl, mewn llawer o achosion, i adael yr ardal, ac yna mae rhai o'r tai hynny wedyn yn cael eu prynu gan berchnogion ail gartrefi. Yn yr un modd, yng Ngwynedd, ceir polisi addysg Gymraeg lle ceir 100 o ysgolion prif ffrwd, ac mae'n dweud eu bod i gyd yn ddwyieithog, ond mewn gwirionedd, pan fyddant yn dweud dwyieithog, dyna sut y maent yn ei ddisgrifio; mewn mannau eraill yng Nghymru credaf y byddem yn galw'r rheini'n ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg. Yn ogystal, mae ganddynt bolisi o beidio â rhoi gwersi Saesneg i bobl nes eu bod yn saith neu wyth oed. Ac os ydych yn yr ardal honno a bod llawer o swyddi lle mae'r Gymraeg yn hanfodol mewn mannau eraill yng Nghymru, yna i raddau anghymesur bydd pobl sy'n dysgu Cymraeg yn yr ardaloedd hynny drwy'r ysgolion hynny - efallai y bydd nifer uwch o'r rheini'n symud i gymryd y swyddi hynny lle mae'r Gymraeg yn hanfodol mewn mannau eraill. Yn yr un modd, os oes gennych bobl sydd am gael addysg cyfrwng Saesneg i'w plant, ac nad ydynt yn gallu ei chael yng Ngwynedd - mae ganddynt eu prif breswylfa yno a chawsant eu dysgu drwy'r Saesneg eu hunain - bydd rhai o'r bobl hynny wedyn yn symud oddi yno, ac ni fydd ganddynt brif breswylfa yno mwyach, ac mae rhai o'r cartrefi hynny unwaith eto'n cael eu prynu gan berchnogion ail gartrefi. Bydd pobl eraill, sydd efallai'n symud i mewn o ardal drefol mewn mannau eraill, dros amser, yn awyddus i symud yno'n barhaol, ond mewn rhai achosion ni fyddant yn symud yno'n barhaol fel prif breswylfa nes bod eu plant wedi gorffen yr ysgol, oherwydd mae'n dipyn o rwystr i bobl ei oresgyn i'w plant orfod dysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Ac rwy'n gwybod bod yna bum canolfan iaith Gymraeg lle mae pobl yn mynd am ddau i dri mis o drochi, ond nid yw hynny'n gweithio wedi blwyddyn 9, ac efallai y bydd llawer o bobl yn dewis peidio â gwneud hynny. Felly, rwy'n credu bod angen i gyngor Gwynedd ac eraill hefyd edrych ar eu polisïau a'r effaith y maent yn ei chael - er yr hoffwn fod yn glir yn Diddymu ein bod yn credu y dylai awdurdodau lleol allu penderfynu ar eu polisïau ar gyfer y Gymraeg yn yr ysgol, ac rydym yn credu y dylid cael cyllid ar gyfer ysgolion rhydd i roi dewis i bobl a rhieni os ydynt yn dymuno gwneud penderfyniad gwahanol. Ond rwy'n credu bod hwn yn faes cymhleth. Rwy'n dymuno'n dda i'r deisebwyr, ond nid wyf yn credu ei bod yn iawn inni wneud perchnogion ail gartrefi'n fychod dihangol, ac rwy'n amheus y bydd y sefyllfaoedd y maent yn poeni amdanynt yn cael eu datrys gan y polisïau a gynigir.