English: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I just put on the record at the start of my contribution that I don't lie awake at three in the morning either thinking, or sleeping and dreaming, about the Cabinet Secretary's plans for local government in Wales, despite rumours that might have gone around after the last statement you gave on this subject, Alun Davies, when I said I'd be more than happy to live adjacent and next to the Cabinet Secretary but would be less than happy to live with him in the same authority, and I'm sure that you would agree with that as well, Cabinet Secretary. Perhaps I should be asking Mike Hedges to round up this debate, as he's probably a little bit more against these plans than I am, despite the fact that it bears the name of a Conservative debate on it. But, I won't do that, Dirprwy Lywydd, because I know that would incur your annoyance at this point. Look, I've got to say, I started feeling a bit sorry for you, actually, Alun Davies, as it was probably a little bit like you addressing the WLGA or a Labour Party meeting, this debate today. You really did - well, I can't think of a single person actually who supported your plans. You did make - I mean, he's not a bad chap. I'll give you that, Cabinet Secretary - you're not a bad chap. And you're not unintelligent, so I know that you have given thought - perhaps not as much as you should have - to some of these proposals, and that is to be welcomed. What I would say is that you made a very important point about a third before the end of your rhetoric earlier, where you said that you are fed up with this dry debate. I think we all cheered at that one, didn't we? I think we're all fed up with it as well. But, of course, the reason why we're having this dry debate is because you have brought this discussion to this Assembly by putting forward these proposals that have died in the water several times over the years since we've had this Assembly. I can't count the number - Mike Hedges will remember the exact number of times we've debated this - and we've put these proposals to bed before. So, you brought the debate to us. And if what you say is true, which is that this is a prerequisite to what you really want to discuss - which is, I assume, the modernisation of public services in Wales, and which is, I assume, putting the citizen at the heart of the system, and how often do we discuss that - then why on earth, I cannot fathom why you are not having that debate and why you are not bringing those proposals to this place and other places first, and then let's have the discussion about the structure that follows. And, who knows, you might actually carry people - you might carry one person with you. I'm sure you've done that - I won't go there. I'm sure you have carried people before with you. But what was blatantly obvious from this debate today was that, regardless of your original desire to engage with people and carry the public and AMs and politicians and local government with you, that simply does not seem to be happening. You have to - well, the Cabinet Secretary has pointed out this is a Conservative debate, but it doesn't escape our notice that it was not just Conservatives, or indeed the other opposition Members, who were supporting the tenets of this debate today. You are clearly not going about this in the right way. You go about many things in the right way, I do not doubt that. But this, Cabinet Secretary, is not one of them. It's been quite clear by the response today from Members, some of whom I'll refer to now, that there are concerns. Siân Gwenllian, who spoke, is right. Yes, we do need to strengthen our councils. Leaving aside the banter that often happens in this place about cuts, and whether they're UK cuts or cuts here, yes, of course, modernisation of local authorities and of public services is something that we need to do not just in times of cuts but in times of prosperity too. Remember that phrase, 'We've got to fix the roof when the sun is shining'? Well, it wasn't just relevant at the UK level, it was relevant in devolved politics as well. So, regardless of the economic situation, local government needs to modernise. The Cabinet Secretary is right about that, Labour Party members are right about that and opposition party members are right about that, so let's get on with having that discussion. Lynne Neagle - well, what do you really think, Lynne? A stoic defence for the status quo - the status quo but, clearly, modernised. Your comments were very similar to those of the WLGA, which I know that the Welsh Government often dismisses and says, 'Well, they would say that, wouldn't they?' Well, yes, they would say that, because they represent countless people in local government, and not just elected officials but public servants in local government who are doing their best at these difficult times to make sure that public services are delivered as well and as efficiently as possible. I am sure we are all with them in spirit in wanting to achieve that. Oscar, you spoke about engagement and what assurances workers in those local authorities are getting. Obviously, I'm closer to a Conservative local authority that I represent than I am to other local authorities, but I'm not entirely sure what assurances you have put forward to our workers in local authorities at this time, because they are under the cosh. They really are trying hard to do things in an increasingly difficult situation. They are certainly not reassured by the arguments that you've made. Paul Davies - well, actually, before I came here today I should probably have popped to the bookies to put a bet on that you would oppose a return to Dyfed. In the same way that you're used to some of the responses you've had today, Alun, Paul has been stoically against the return to Dyfed over a long, long time. The argument about brand is key. I haven't reiterated that yet, because I did so at length in the last statement that you gave. I can have discussions with you about issues I have with the reformation of Monmouthshire. You will respond to me that if you put Monmouthshire and Blaenau Gwent back together, you are somehow romantically recreating an old Monmouthshire county that you grew up in and that I grew up in, and that, actually, people are nostalgic for. You can make that argument in the case of Monmouthshire, and you may well rename the authority that in the longer term, but how on earth are you going to persuade people in Aberystwyth that the Pembrokeshire brand is really going to work there? How are you going to persuade people in Carmarthenshire that the Pembrokeshire brand is going to work there? It just doesn't work, and that is the problem with these proposals, Cabinet Secretary.
Welsh: Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. A gaf fi gofnodi ar ddechrau fy nghyfraniad nad wyf fi'n gorwedd ar ddihun am dri o'r gloch y bore naill ai'n meddwl, neu'n cysgu ac yn breuddwydio am gynlluniau'r Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet ar gyfer llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru, er gwaethaf sïon a allai fod wedi mynd o gwmpas ar ôl y datganiad diwethaf a roesoch ar y pwnc hwn, Alun Davies, pan ddywedais y buaswn yn fwy na pharod i fyw gerllaw a'r drws nesaf i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet ond yn llai na hapus i fyw gydag ef yn yr un awdurdod, ac rwy'n siŵr y byddech yn cytuno â hynny yn ogystal, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet. Efallai y dylwn ofyn i Mike Hedges grynhoi'r ddadl hon, gan ei fod ychydig bach yn fwy gwrthwynebus i'r cynlluniau hyn nag yr wyf fi, er mai enw'r Ceidwadwyr sydd ar y ddadl. Ond ni wnaf hynny, Ddirprwy Lywydd, oherwydd gwn y byddai hynny'n ennyn eich dicter ar y pwynt hwn. Edrychwch, mae'n rhaid i mi ddweud, dechreuais deimlo braidd yn ddrwg drosoch chi, mewn gwirionedd, Alun Davies, gan ei fod ychydig bach fel annerch cyfarfod o CLlLC neu gyfarfod o'r Blaid Lafur, y ddadl hon heddiw. Oeddech wir - wel, ni allaf feddwl am un person mewn gwirionedd a gefnogai eich cynlluniau. Fe wnaethoch - hynny yw, nid yw'n ddyn drwg. Rwy'n rhoi hynny i chi Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet - nid ydych yn ddyn drwg. Ac nid ydych yn anneallus, felly gwn eich bod wedi meddwl - nid cymaint ag y dylech fod wedi'i wneud efallai - am rai o'r cynigion hyn, ac mae hynny i'w groesawu. Yr hyn a ddywedwn yw eich bod wedi gwneud pwynt pwysig iawn tua'r drydedd ran cyn diwedd eich rhethreg yn gynharach, lle y dywedoch eich bod wedi cael llond bol ar y ddadl sych hon. Rwy'n credu ein bod i gyd wedi cymeradwyo hynny, oni wnaethom? Credaf fod pawb ohonom wedi blino arni hefyd. Ond wrth gwrs, y rheswm pam yr ydym yn cael y ddadl sych hon yw oherwydd eich bod wedi dwyn y drafodaeth hon i'r Cynulliad drwy gyflwyno'r cynigion hyn sydd wedi hen drengi sawl gwaith dros y blynyddoedd ers inni gael y Cynulliad hwn. Ni allwn gyfrif nifer y - bydd Mike Hedges yn cofio'r union nifer o weithiau yr ydym wedi trafod hyn - ac rydym wedi cau'r drws ar y cynigion hyn o'r blaen. Felly, fe gyflwynoch y ddadl i ni. Ac os yw'r hyn a ddywedwch yn wir, sef mai rhagofyniad yw hyn i'r hyn rydych eisiau ei drafod mewn gwirionedd - sef, rwy'n tybio, moderneiddio gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru, ac sydd, rwy'n tybio, yn rhoi'r dinesydd wrth wraidd y system, a pha mor aml y trafodwn hynny - yna pam ar y ddaear, ni allaf ddirnad pam nad ydych yn cael y ddadl honno a pham nad ydych yn dod â'r cynigion hynny i'r lle hwn a mannau eraill yn gyntaf, a gadewch inni gael y drafodaeth am y strwythur sy'n dilyn. A phwy a ŵyr, efallai y llwyddwch chi i berswadio pobl - efallai y llwyddwch i berswadio un person. Rwy'n siŵr eich bod wedi gwneud hynny - nid af yno. Rwy'n siŵr eich bod wedi perswadio pobl o'r blaen. Ond yr hyn a oedd yn gwbl amlwg o'r ddadl hon heddiw oedd nad yw'n ymddangos eich bod yn ymgysylltu â phobl a chario'r cyhoedd ac ACau a gwleidyddion a llywodraeth leol gyda chi er gwaethaf eich dymuniad gwreiddiol i wneud hynny. Mae'n rhaid i chi - wel, mae Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet wedi nodi mai dadl y Ceidwadwyr yw hon, ond nid yw wedi dianc rhag ein sylw nad y Ceidwadwyr yn unig, nac Aelodau'r gwrthbleidiau eraill, a oedd yn cefnogi egwyddorion y ddadl hon heddiw. Mae'n amlwg nad ydych yn mynd o'i chwmpas hi yn y ffordd iawn. Rydych yn gwneud llawer o bethau yn y ffordd iawn, nid wyf yn amau hynny. Ond nid yw hyn, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, yn un ohonynt. Mae wedi bod yn eithaf clir o'r ymateb heddiw gan Aelodau, a chyfeiriaf at rai ohonynt yn awr, fod yna bryderon. Mae Siân Gwenllian, a siaradodd, yn iawn. Oes, mae angen cryfhau ein cynghorau. Gan roi'r herian sy'n aml yn digwydd yn y lle hwn ynglŷn â thoriadau o'r neilltu, ac a ydynt yn doriadau'r DU neu'n doriadau yma, wrth gwrs bod moderneiddio awdurdodau lleol a gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yn rhywbeth y mae angen inni ei wneud nid yn unig mewn cyfnod o doriadau, ond ar adegau o ffyniant hefyd. A ydych yn cofio'r ymadrodd, 'Rhaid inni drwsio'r to pan fydd yr haul yn tywynnu'? Wel, roedd yn berthnasol ar lefel y DU, ac roedd yn berthnasol mewn gwleidyddiaeth ddatganoledig yn ogystal. Felly, er gwaethaf y sefyllfa economaidd, mae angen i lywodraeth leol foderneiddio. Mae Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet yn iawn am hynny, mae aelodau'r Blaid Lafur yn iawn am hynny ac mae aelodau'r wrthblaid yn iawn am hynny, felly gadewch inni fwrw ymlaen â chael y drafodaeth honno. Lynne Neagle - wel, beth rydych yn ei gredu mewn difrif, Lynne? Amddiffyniad stoicaidd o'r status quo - y status quo, ond wedi'i foderneiddio yn amlwg. Roedd eich sylwadau'n debyg iawn i rai CLlLC y gwn fod Llywodraeth Cymru yn aml yn eu gwrthod ac yn dweud, 'Wel, fe fyddent yn dweud hynny, oni fyddent?' Wel, byddent, fe fyddent yn dweud hynny, oherwydd maent yn cynrychioli nifer dirifedi o bobl mewn llywodraeth leol, ac nid swyddogion etholedig yn unig ond gweision cyhoeddus mewn llywodraeth leol sy'n gwneud eu gorau ar yr adegau anodd hyn i wneud yn siŵr fod gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yn cael eu darparu cystal ac mor effeithlon â phosibl. Rwy'n siŵr ein bod i gyd gyda hwy yn yr ysbryd o ran yr awydd i gyflawni hynny. Oscar, fe siaradoch am ymgysylltiad a pha sicrwydd y mae gweithwyr yn yr awdurdodau lleol hynny'n ei gael. Yn amlwg, rwy'n agosach at awdurdod lleol Ceidwadol a gynrychiolaf nag yr wyf fi at awdurdodau lleol eraill, ond nid wyf yn hollol siŵr pa sicrwydd yr ydych wedi'i gyflwyno i'n gweithwyr mewn awdurdodau lleol ar hyn o bryd, oherwydd maent o dan bwysau. Maent yn ymdrechu'n galed i wneud pethau mewn sefyllfa sy'n fwyfwy anodd. Yn sicr ni chânt eu calonogi gan y dadleuon a wnaethoch. Paul Davies - wel, mewn gwirionedd, cyn imi ddod yma heddiw, mae'n debyg y dylwn fod wedi taro i roi bet ar eich clywed yn gwrthwynebu dychwelyd at fodel Dyfed. Yn yr un ffordd ag yr ydych chi wedi arfer â rhai o'r ymatebion a gawsoch heddiw, Alun, mae Paul wedi bod yn gadarn yn erbyn dychwelyd at fodel Dyfed ers amser hir iawn. Mae'r ddadl am y brand yn allweddol. Nid wyf wedi ailadrodd honno eto, oherwydd gwneuthum hynny'n fanwl yn y datganiad diwethaf a roesoch. Gallaf gael trafodaethau gyda chi ynglŷn â phroblemau sydd gennyf ynghylch ailffurfio Sir Fynwy. Fe fyddwch yn ymateb drwy ddweud wrthyf pe baech yn rhoi Sir Fynwy a Blaenau Gwent yn ôl at ei gilydd, y byddech yn ail-greu rhyw hen syniad rhamantus am hen Sir Fynwy y cawsoch eich magu ynddi ac y cefais i fy magu ynddi, ac y mae pobl yn hiraethu amdani mewn gwirionedd. Gallwch wneud y ddadl honno yn achos Sir Fynwy, a gallech ailenwi'r awdurdod hwnnw yn y tymor hwy, ond sut ar y ddaear y gwnewch chi berswadio pobl yn Aberystwyth fod brand Sir Benfro yn mynd i weithio'n dda yno? Sut y gwnewch chi berswadio pobl yn Sir Gaerfyrddin fod brand Sir Benfro yn mynd i weithio yno? Nid yw'n gweithio, a dyna'r broblem gyda'r cynigion hyn, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet.