techiaith/cofnodycynulliad_en-cy huggingface dataset:
English: Thank you very much. The last time that you appeared before us, Minister, you were looking ahead to the JMC (EN) that was due to take place in Cardiff at the end of January, and at that time, we had a conversation about what role the Welsh Government would be playing as part of the negotiations between the UK Government and the EU. You were looking forward to that meeting, to hearing more about what the stance of the UK Government was. Did you learn anything specific in that meeting?
Welsh: Diolch yn fawr. Y tro diwethaf roeddech chi yma, Weinidog, roeddech chi'n edrych ymlaen at y JMC (EN) oedd yn digwydd yng Nghaerdydd ddiwedd mis Ionawr, ac ar y pryd, cawsom ni sgwrs amboutu pa rôl fuasai Llywodraeth Cymru'n chwarae fel rhan o'r negodi rhwng Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig a'r EU, ond roeddech chi'n edrych ymlaen at y cyfarfod hwnnw a dysgu beth oedd barn Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig. Ddysgoch chi unrhyw beth pendant?
English: Well, we had a discussion at that meeting, as you referred to, but if you look at what the situation is as it currently stands today, we have no direct role in the negotiation team. But as for the broader negotiating process, what we've always said is that the JMC (EN) needs to live up to the responsibilities that it has, which are to provide a role for the devolved Governments to play in those negotiations. That has not taken place. We have not been given the role that we would have wished to have and what we believe would be the appropriate role for the Welsh Government. The mandate that was published in the past fortnight is not a reflection of the type of role that we would have wished to see being given to the devolved administrations generally. The UK Government has not listened to the points that we've raised and that the other Governments have raised. Now, we want to be constructive in this process. So, should the UK Government change its position about the role of the devolved Governments, we would be very willing to play a constructive role in that part.
Welsh: Wel, cawsom ni drafodaeth yn y cyfarfod hwnnw, fel rŷch chi'n sôn, ond os ydych chi'n edrych ar beth yw'r sefyllfa sydd ohoni heddiw, does gennym ni ddim rôl uniongyrchol yn y tîm negodi. Ond yn y broses o negodi'n ehangach, beth rŷm ni wastad wedi'i ddweud yw bod angen i'r JMC (EN) i fyw i fyny i'r cyfrifoldebau sydd gyda fe, hynny yw, darparu rôl i'r Llywodraethau datganoledig yn y negodiadau hynny. Dyw hynny ddim wedi digwydd. Dydym ni ddim wedi cael y rôl roeddem ni'n dymuno ei chael ac yn credu mai dyna'r rôl iawn i Lywodraeth Cymru. Dyw'r mandad a gafodd ei gyhoeddi yn y pythefnos ddiwethaf ddim yn adlewyrchu'r math o rôl buasem ni wedi dymuno gweld i'r llywodraethau datganoledig yn gyffredinol. Dyw Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol ddim wedi gwrando ar y pwyntiau gwnaethom ni godi a'r Llywodraethau eraill godi. Rŷn ni eisiau bod yn adeiladol yn y broses hon. Felly, petasai Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol yn newid ei safbwynt ynglŷn â rôl y Llywodraethau datganoledig, buasem ni'n barod i chwarae rôl adeiladol yn hynny.
English: Okay. I understand and appreciate that, but could you take us through the processes that have occurred since the end of January? Because you say that the mandate was published without the kind of input that you would have wished to have had. But what links have been forged between you, as Minister, or your officials, with the UK Government, since the meeting on 28 January, and what has happened? What opportunities have you had since then to influence the UK Government's position, or even better, what opportunities have you had to collaborate with the UK Government to shape the mandate itself?
Welsh: Ocê. Rydw i'n deall hynny - gwerthfawrogi hynny. Oes modd i chi fynd â ni trwy'r prosesau sydd wedi digwydd ers diwedd mis Ionawr? Achos dŷch chi'n dweud bod y mandad wedi'i gyhoeddi heb y fath o fewnbwn buasech chi wedi dymuno ei gael. Pa gysylltiadau sydd wedi bod rhyngddoch chi fel Gweinidog neu eich swyddogion gyda Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol ers cyfarfod 28 Ionawr, a beth sydd wedi digwydd? Pa gyfleoedd ydych chi wedi eu cael i ddylanwadu ar safbwynt y Deyrnas Unedig neu yn well, wrth gwrs, i gydweithio gyda Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig i siapio y mandad ei hun?
English: So, for me to be clear that I understand what you're saying: the Welsh Government has tried to write to the UK Government to try to set out and describe its position. You've done that, but there's no process or structure in place that enables the Governments in the round to come together to discuss either the mandate or the negotiation process, and there is no forum that meets in order to decide what the position of the UK Government is. So, there is no process in place.
Welsh: So, i fod yn glir fy mod i ddim wedi'ch camddeall chi: mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi trio ysgrifennu at Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol, er mwyn gosod mas a disgrifio safbwynt Llywodraeth Cymru. Dŷch chi wedi gwneud hynny, ond does dim proses, strwythur, mewn lle, sy'n galluogi'r Llywodraethau, yn y rownd, i ddod i drafod naill ai y mandad neu'r broses o negodi, a does dim fforwm sy'n cyfarfod er mwyn penderfynu beth ydy safbwynt Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol. So, does dim proses mewn lle.
English: No. I've just described the process in relation to the mandate, and that was how - .
Welsh: Na. Rwy newydd ddisgrifio proses y mandad i chi. Dyna'r broses wnaeth - .
English: But that's an internal process in London. That's what you described.
Welsh: Ond proses fewnol yn Llundain roeddech chi'n ei disgrifio.
English: On the whole, yes.
Welsh: Ar y cyfan. Ar y cyfan, ie.
English: There was PR, basically. So, if they ask what your opinion is the morning before they publish the mandate, well, it's clear that they're not going to pay a great deal of attention to your response.
Welsh: Roedd yna PR, basically. Os ydyn nhw'n gofyn i chi beth ydy eich barn chi y bore cyn eu bod nhw'n cyhoeddi'r mandad, mae'n amlwg eu bod nhw ddim yn mynd i gymryd lot o sylw ohoni hi.
English: I don't think we've received a response to the two letters, the one from the First Minister and the one from myself, as yet, responding in detail to the points that we raised. And the changes in the mandate that came out of that process are very marginal changes - that's how I'd describe them - as a result of the communication that took place. Looking forward, we have called for a process that includes us, and an essential principle, which is also important - the process is important, of course it is, but the principle is important - that is, what is the purpose of this process? And the principle that we've been calling for is that the UK Government should not proceed with a position on an issue that has been devolved without receiving the agreement of the devolved Governments. We've discussed that in this forum. That principle has not been agreed. I'm meeting tomorrow with Ministers from the Northern Ireland and Scottish Governments and we've invited UK Ministers to that meeting to give us an update, and for us also to be able to discuss, as devolved Governments, what we want out of the process together.
Welsh: Dwi ddim yn credu ein bod ni wedi cael ymateb i'r ddau lythyr a aeth gan y Prif Weinidog yma a gennyf i, hyd yn hyn, yn ymateb mewn manylder i'r pwyntiau gafodd eu codi. Mae'r newidiadau yn y mandad a ddaeth allan o'r broses honno, newidiadau ymylol iawn y buasen i'n eu disgrifio nhw, yn sgil y cyfathrebu a fuodd. O edrych ymlaen, wrth gwrs rŷn ni wedi galw am broses sydd yn ein cynnwys ni, ac egwyddor elfennol, sydd hefyd yn bwysig - mae'r broses yn bwysig, wrth gwrs ei bod hi, ond mae'r egwyddor yn bwysig - hynny yw, beth yw pwrpas y broses? A'r egwyddor rŷn ni wedi bod yn galw amdani hi yw bod Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol ddim, ar y cyfan, yn mynd rhagddyn nhw gyda safbwynt ar fater sydd wedi ei ddatganoli heb gael cytundeb y Llywodraethau. Rŷn ni wedi trafod hyn yn y fforwm hwn. Dyw'r egwyddor yna ddim wedi cael ei chytuno. Rwy'n cwrdd yfory gyda Gweinidogion o Lywodraethau yr Alban a Gogledd Iwerddon. Rŷn ni wedi gwahodd Gweinidogion o Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol hefyd i roi update i ni, ac i ni hefyd drafod, fel Llywodraethau datganoledig, beth rŷn ni eisiau allan o'r broses gyda'n gilydd.
English: I don't know as yet.
Welsh: Dwi ddim yn gwybod ar hyn o bryd. Na, ond mae -
English: Well, it's an appropriate time, we believe, after the first week of the discussions in Brussels, to have a ministerial meeting and for that to discuss what has happened in the process thus far, and for us to have a forum to undertake that. So, the intention was to have an opportunity to meet as Ministers to discuss that, and also, as I said, to discuss what our expectations are for the process in terms of devolved Governments for the future. What is entirely fundamental, I would suggest, is that we move beyond some sort of oral update so that we have a report. Now, everyone understands that there is a need to work rapidly and in a flexible manner - that's inevitable in a complicated process such as this - but there is a need for a written report with an explanation of the negotiations broadly, and then options for the next round that's coming up, and then an opportunity for the Governments to consider those.
Welsh: Wel, trafod - . Mae'n amser addas, rŷn ni'n credu, ar ôl wythnos gyntaf y trafodaethau ym Mrwsel, fod cyfarfod gweinidogol wedi'i drefnu i drafod beth sydd wedi digwydd a'r broses hyd yn hyn, a bod gyda ni fforwm i allu gwneud hynny. Felly, dyna'r bwriad oedd cael cyfle i gwrdd yn weinidogol i drafod hynny, a hefyd, fel roeddwn i'n ei ddweud, i drafod beth yw ein disgwyliadau ni am y broses o ran Llywodraethau datganoledig yn y dyfodol. Yr hyn sydd yn gwbl elfennol, fuasen i'n ei awgrymu, yw ein bod ni'n symud y tu hwnt i ryw fath o ddiweddariad ar lafar fel bod gyda ni adroddiad. Mae pawb, wrth gwrs, yn deall bod angen gweithio'n gyflym ac mewn ffyrdd hyblyg - wrth gwrs mae hynny'n anorfod yn y broses gymhleth hon - ond mae angen rhywbeth, adroddiad ar bapur gydag esboniad o'r trafodaethau yn fras, a beth yw'r dewisiadau ar gyfer y rownd nesaf, a wedyn cyfle i'r Llywodraethau allu ymwneud â hynny.
English: I have read the statement by the European Commission and they're very clear about what the areas that they want to discuss are, and in what order, and when they want to reach agreement. As an example, on fisheries policy, they want an agreement by the end of June. Now, if we set everything else aside, it's very difficult to see how the UK Government can come to an agreement on a devolved issue over the coming months, unless there is a process or a structure in existence to include the opinions of the Governments that are legally responsible for that policy.
Welsh: Dwi wedi darllen y datganiad gan y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd ac maen nhw'n glir iawn am beth ydy'r meysydd y maen nhw eisiau eu trafod, ac ym mha drefn, a phryd maen nhw eisiau cyrraedd cytundeb. Fel enghraifft, ar fater polisi pysgodfeydd, maen nhw eisiau cytundeb ar ddiwedd mis Mehefin. Nawr, os ydyn ni'n rhoi popeth arall o'r neilltu ar hyn o bryd sy'n digwydd, mae'n anodd iawn gweld sut y gall Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol ddod i gytundeb ar fater datganoledig yn ystod y misoedd nesaf, os nad oes yna broses neu strwythur sy'n bodoli i gynnwys barn y Llywodraethau sy'n gyfrifol, yn gyfreithlon, am y mater polisi hwnnw.
English: The area of fisheries is something that is crucial to the entire challenge, as you describe it. Now, there are varied viewpoints; for example, the devolved Governments have different viewpoints - it's not as if there is one viewpoint coming from Westminster, and one agreed position coming from everywhere else. It's obvious that the priorities are slightly different in all parts of the UK, and that is why we need a process that enables those issues to be discussed, not just in a bilateral way, but in a quadrilateral way.
Welsh: Mae'r maes pysgodfeydd, wrth gwrs, yn un sydd yn greiddiol i'r holl beth o ran y sialens rŷch chi'n ei disgrifio. Hynny yw, mae safbwyntiau gwahanol, a gyda llaw, mae safbwyntiau ychydig yn wahanol gyda'r Llywodraethau datganoledig hefyd - dyw e ddim fel petai gennych chi un safbwynt ar gyfer San Steffan, ac un safbwynt cytûn gyda phawb arall. Mae'n amlwg bod blaenoriaethau ychydig yn wahanol ym mhob rhan o'r Deyrnas Gyfunol. Dyna pam mae angen proses sydd yn caniatáu'r pethau hynny i gael eu trafod, nid jest mewn ffordd bilateral, ond mewn ffordd quadrilateral.
English: And that, of course, is very different to what Huw and I would remember in terms of discussions with the Commission and the European Union.
Welsh: Ac mae hyn, wrth gwrs, yn dra gwahanol i beth fuasai minnau a Huw yn ei gofio o'r trafodaethau gyda'r Comisiwn a gyda'r Undeb Ewropeaidd - gwahanol iawn, iawn.
English: Well you make a very worthy point there - a very valid point. What we've outlined and described is not something novel, you've had experience yourselves of being part of a context where the four Governments are jointly discussing, and one of the Governments - in the past, the Welsh Government has led on that. That process is one that has been established for a long period of time as part of the European Union.
Welsh: Wel, dŷch chi'n gwneud pwynt teilwng iawn, os caf i ddweud. Hynny yw, dyw'r peth rŷn ni'n ei amlinellu ac yn ei ddisgrifio ddim yn rhywbeth sydd yn newydd, a dweud y gwir, fel rŷch chi wedi cael profiadau eich hunain o fod o fewn cyd-destun lle mae'r pedair Llywodraeth yn trafod ar y cyd ac mae un o'r Llywodraethau - yn y gorffennol mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi arwain ar hynny. Mae'r broses yna yn broses sydd wedi'i sefydlu ers sbel fel rhan o'r Undeb Ewropeaidd.
English: I do remember, Chair, Michael Gove discussing this with us during the session that we had with him. It would be useful to relook at the transcript of that meeting as a committee, but I don't have any further questions at the moment.
Welsh: Dwi yn cofio, Gadeirydd, Michael Gove yn trafod hyn gyda ni yn ystod ein sesiwn gyda fe. Mi fuasai'n hwylus cael ailedrych ar y transcript o hynny fel pwyllgor, ond does gen i ddim fwy o gwestiynau ar hyn.
English: Yes, thank you, Chair. Well, continuing with the same theme in terms of your response as a Government to the UK negotiation proposals, you've made it clear in response to questions from Alun Davies that you didn't have any consultation before receiving the final proposals by the UK Government, so your input wasn't reflected in what came out of those proposals. But can I ask more generally, perhaps, for you to explain why the Welsh Government doesn't support the position outlined by the UK Government?
Welsh: Ie, diolch, Gadeirydd. Wel, yn parhau efo'r un un thema, a dweud y gwir, o'ch ymateb chi fel Llywodraeth i gynigion negodi'r Deyrnas Unedig, dŷch chi wedi'i gwneud hi'n glir mewn atebion i gwestiynau gan Alun Davies na wnaethoch chi dderbyn unrhyw ymgynghori yn nhermau cyn cyhoeddi'r cynigion terfynol gan y Deyrnas Unedig - hynny yw, doedd eich mewnbwn chi ddim yn cael ei adlewyrchu yn beth a ddaeth allan yn y cynigion hynny. Allaf i ofyn yn fwy cyffredinol, efallai, i chi esbonio pam yn hollol nad yw Llywodraeth Cymru'n cefnogi'r safbwynt a amlinellir gan Lywodraeth y DU yn gyffredinol?
English: In the mandate, that is.
Welsh: Yn y mandad, hynny yw.
English: Well, we don't think it's ambitious enough in terms of protecting the interests of Wales. It discusses issues in the vocabulary of free trade, but it creates new difficulties for free trade, if truth be told. It's something that's coming at haste because a timetable has been set that doesn't prioritise getting an agreement that works, but rather prioritises leaving at a particular point in time. I would say that it puts ideology above the economic interests of Wales - so, this idea of sovereignty is, I would say, in the world as it is, something that's pure fiction and the role that's given to us within that is not sufficient. So, there are various reasons why the content of the mandate does not reflect the economic interests and the wider interests of Wales.
Welsh: Wel, dŷn ni ddim yn credu ei fod e'n ddigon uchelgeisiol o ran gofalu am fuddiannau Cymru. Mae'n trafod mewn geirfa masnach rydd, ond mae'n creu rhwystredigaethau newydd i fasnach rydd, mewn gwirionedd. Mae'n rhywbeth sydd yn dod, buaswn i'n ei ddweud, ar garlam oherwydd bod amserlen wedi'i gosod sydd ddim yn caniatáu - wel, sydd ddim yn blaenoriaethu cael cytundeb sydd yn gweithio, ond sy'n blaenoriaethu cael gadael ar bwynt arbennig. Buaswn i'n dweud ei fod e'n rhoi ideoleg uwchben buddiannau economaidd Cymru - hynny yw, y syniad yma o sofraniaeth sydd, buaswn i'n dweud, yn y byd sydd ohoni, yn gwbl ffuglennol, a dweud y gwir, a dyw'r rôl sydd wedi'i rhoi i ni o fewn hynny ddim yn ddigon. Felly, mae amryw o resymau dyw cynnwys y mandad ddim yn adlewyrchu buddiannau economaidd nac ehangach Cymru, fuaswn i'n datgan.
English: Thank you very much for that. And, further to that response, could you outline your views on what the likely end point of the negotiations between the UK and the EU will be? Where do you think we will be at the end of this process?
Welsh: Diolch yn fawr am hynna. Ac, ymhellach i hynna, allwch chi amlinellu'ch barn ynglŷn â chanlyniad tebygol terfynol y negodiadau rhwng y Deyrnas Unedig a'r Undeb Ewropeaidd? Lle, ydych chi'n credu, fydd y pwynt terfynol a beth fydd y canlyniad?
English: Thank you for that. In your written statement, you state that the UK Government's failure to listen to the concerns of the devolved Governments means that it will enter the Brexit negotiations 'alone'. So, can you clarify and confirm what you believe the consequences of this are in terms of the UK Government going into these negotiations alone if it doesn't listen to the devolved Governments?
Welsh: Diolch am hynna. Yn eich datganiad ysgrifenedig, dŷch chi wedi dweud bod methiant Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig i wrando ar bryderon y Llywodraethau datganoledig yn golygu y bydd yn mynd i'r negodiadau Brexit 'ar ei ben ei hun'. Allwch chi gadarnhau beth ydych chi'n credu byddai goblygiadau o'r Deyrnas Unedig, yn sylfaenol, yn mynd ar ei phen ei hun os nad yw'n gwrando ar y Llywodraethau datganoledig?
English: Well, the first thing to say is that it's missing out on an opportunity here for the UK Government to be able to go into those negotiations saying that they have the agreement of the four Governments of the UK. So, they've missed that opportunity. In my view, and the view of the Welsh Government, that is an important loss. There's also an element of what's credible within these negotiations. They're entering into these discussions and it's not certain they have the agreement of the Governments that will be required to ensure that these agreements work practically on the ground. Now, that's not sensible, looking at it strategically. It's not sensible in terms of credibility in the way that the UK Government is negotiating, because our European partners fully understand that that is the constitutional settlement within the UK. So, what should have happened was that there should have been a process of agreeing these things. As a result, we're not going to be in a position to able to say - . I don't want, on behalf of the Welsh Government, to be a part of any window dressing for this. If we don't have a role in the process, and we don't believe that this is in the interests of Wales, well we will be saying so and we'll do so clearly.
Welsh: Wel, y peth cyntaf i'w ddweud yw ei fod e'n colli ar gyfle, onid yw e, i Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol allu mynd i mewn i'r trafodaethau yna yn dweud bod ganddyn nhw gydsyniad pedair Llywodraeth yn y Deyrnas Gyfunol. Felly, maen nhw wedi colli'r cyfle hwnnw. Yn fy marn i, ym marn Llywodraeth Cymru, mae hynny'n golled bwysig. Mae elfen hefyd o beth sydd yn gredadwy yn y trafodaethau yma. Maen nhw'n mynd i fynd i mewn i'r trafodaethau yma a dyw e ddim yn sicr bod gyda nhw gytundeb gan y Llywodraethau bydd gofyn iddyn nhw allu gwneud yn sicr bod y cytundebau yma'n gweithio mewn ffordd ymarferol ar lawr gwlad. Nawr, dyw hynny ddim yn synhwyrol o safbwynt strategol. Dyw e ddim yn synhwyrol o ran hygrededd negodi Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol yn y broses honno, oherwydd mae ein partneriaid Ewropeaidd ni, wrth gwrs, yn deall i'r dim mai dyna'r trefniant cyfansoddiadol o fewn y Deyrnas Gyfunol. Felly, beth ddylai fod wedi digwydd yw bod proses o gytuno'r pethau yma. Yn sgil hynny, dŷn ni ddim yn mynd i fod mewn sefyllfa o ddweud - . Dwi ddim, ar ran Llywodraeth Cymru, yn moyn bod yn rhan o ryw fath o window dressing ar gyfer hyn. Os nad oes rôl yn y broses, a dŷn ni ddim yn credu bod hyn yn fuddiannau Cymru, byddwn ni'n dweud hynny'n glir.
English: My final question, Chair, and you've partly answered this in response to a previous question from Alun Davies: could you outline what the next steps that the Welsh Government will be taking are in response to the UK Government's position? What happens from now on?
Welsh: Fy ngwestiwn olaf i, Cadeirydd, a dŷch chi'n rhannol wedi ateb hwn i gwestiwn blaenorol gan Alun Davies: allwch chi amlinellu beth fydd camau nesaf Llywodraeth Cymru mewn ymateb i safbwynt Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig? Beth sy'n digwydd o hyn ymlaen, felly?
English: Well, as I said, we're going to have a meeting that will be held tomorrow between at least three of the four Governments, and we've said that we're open, as a Government, for the UK Government to state, 'Well, this is a process that will include you and will enable us to seek agreement on issues that affect devolved issues.' We're open to that and if there's an opportunity for that to happen we will be - as we've always have been - working in a constructive manner and, where possible, collaboratively. If the UK Government wants to continue to keep us outside of that process, then we will find other ways of trying to influence it; we're not going to stop doing that. We will take any opportunity to have ministerial meetings when those opportunities arise. We have, of course, been to 22 or more JMC (EN) meetings; we've published 10 White Papers. So, that process of seeking other means of influencing will be important. And, of course, official meetings in the Governments will continue.
Welsh: Wel, fel dwi'n dweud, mae cyfarfod yfory rhwng o leiaf tair o'r pedair Llywodraeth, ac rŷn ni wedi'i ddweud, er ein bod ni'n agored fel Llywodraeth i Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol ddweud, 'Dyma broses sydd yn eich cynnwys chi ac sydd yn caniatáu ceisio cytundeb ar faterion sydd yn effeithio ar bethau sydd wedi datganoli' - . Rŷn ni'n agored i hynny, ac os bydd cyfle i wneud hynny, byddwn ni - fel rydyn ni wastad wedi bod - yn gweithio mewn ffordd adeiladol, a lle bo'n bosib, yn gydweithredol yn hynny. Os ydy Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol eisiau parhau i'n cadw ni tu allan i'r broses honno, byddwn ni'n ffeindio ffyrdd eraill o geisio dylanwadu; dŷn ni ddim yn mynd i stopio gwneud hynny. Felly, byddwn ni'n cymryd cyfleoedd i gael cyfarfodydd gweinidogol pan fo'r cyfleoedd hynny'n codi. Rŷn ni wedi, wrth gwrs, bod i ryw 22 neu fwy o gyfarfodydd y JMC (EN); rŷn ni wedi cyhoeddi 10 Papur Gwyn. Felly, bydd y broses honno o geisio ffyrdd eraill o ddylanwadu'n bwysig. Wrth gwrs, hefyd, cyfarfodydd rhwng swyddogion yn y Llywodraethau - mae hynny'n mynd i barhau.