English: But my personal confidence in voluntary aided schools being able to make sensible decisions I don't think is enough. What 'having regard' doesn't do is give voluntary aided schools any steer on how to balance that duty to have regard with their relationship with their own deeds and tenets. And we need to bear in mind that it is hard to argue that you've given regard to the agreed syllabus if you can still hide behind your deeds and tenets to effectively ignore it, and I don't think that's what schools of a religious character want to do. The reason they won't want to do it is that they're not going to want a child coming forward and claiming that regard has not been shown to the agreed syllabus and, therefore, requesting a separate syllabus. So, it's in the interest of voluntary aided schools to find a way of avoiding that. My proposal is to ensure that voluntary aided schools apply the same principle of 'have regard' to both the agreed syllabus and their deeds and tenets, and that removes both the temptation and the scope for a complaint that school leaders are treating these two pressures on their decision making in a less than equal way. It's not an extra burden on these schools, as they look to their deeds and tenets anyway in deciding on the school's religious education curriculum. So, along with amendment 16, these amendments help voluntary aided schools navigate the changes in this part of the new national curriculum in a less risky way. Now, I understand that the deeds and tenets are critical to the ethos of a school of a religious character, otherwise we wouldn't have them. This is not about diminishing this; it is about removing the opportunity to leave out parts of a child's education that they would be getting elsewhere, about not depriving a child of knowledge of the world, and not closing down questions, or, if a school does try to do that, to put them in a position where, bluntly, they have to show their workings on how they have come to their decision on what they will be teaching. And I can't see this way forward would limit denominational teaching. Children in a religious school will naturally expect that, but these amendments mean that denominational teaching cannot go so far as to shut down children's knowledge or enquiry, because that couldn't be a logical consequence of a correctly exercised 'have regard' duty in respect of the agreed syllabus. I did ask you to try and stick with this - it is complicated. To help schools know how to use this 'have regard' duty, we have amendment 16, and this requires Government to introduce regulations that set out the minimal evidential requirements necessary to show that the duty to have regard has been properly exercised. And this could just as easily be statutory guidance, but I'd just like to stick with regulations for the purpose of the argument. This is necessary because amendment 18 gives parents, and children themselves, of course, the right to challenge their school of a religious character or not on the grounds that they've not been provided with an appropriate RVE syllabus because that school, whichever sort of school it is, hasn't exercised their 'have regard' duty properly. So, as well as ensuring that pupils in non-religious schools don't get drawn into crazy nonsense because their school hasn't had regard to the agreed syllabus, it's a better way forward for schools of a religious character too. It's much better to have a mechanism that tweaks their syllabus than providing for a situation where a child is entitled to demand a whole new separate one. Now, Llywydd, I don't expect the Government to go with this, because they've spent an endless amount of time trying to come up with an answer to the same problem that I have - a balanced RVE curriculum in all schools whilst fully respecting the core ethos of a school of a religious character. But what I would like, Minister, is to understand whether you've considered the route that I've proposed and, if so, why you've dismissed it in favour of a more, frankly, punitive and onerous option. I think it might be worth pointing out as well that my amendments here have come to the notice of Professor Sandberg of Cardiff University's school of politics and law. I've never met him, so I'm extremely grateful to him for noticing them, and the reason for that is because he is a lawyer, and so he is alert to the practical effects of legislation and its value to practitioners who have to apply it in giving advice or resolving disputes. In his piece for Law & Religion UK, he says that my amendments are worth considering, as they ensure that all pupils get 'access to a syllabus informed by nondenominational RVE' but not to the exclusion of denominational RVE in schools of a religious character, where the RVE corresponds to both. Effectively, he's saying they square the circle, and he recommends you support these amendments, and so do I, obviously. Thank you very much.
Welsh: Ond nid wyf i'n credu bod fy ffydd bersonol mewn ysgolion gwirfoddol a gynorthwyir yn gallu gwneud penderfyniadau synhwyrol yn ddigon. Yr hyn nad yw 'rhoi sylw' yn ei wneud yw rhoi unrhyw arweiniad i ysgolion gwirfoddol a gynorthwyir ar sut i gydbwyso'r ddyletswydd honno i roi sylw i'w perthynas â'u gweithredoedd a'u hegwyddorion eu hunain. Ac mae angen i ni gofio ei bod yn anodd dadlau eich bod chi wedi ystyried y maes llafur cytunedig os gallwch chi ddal i guddio y tu ôl i'ch gweithredoedd a'ch egwyddorion i'w anwybyddu i bob pwrpas, ac nid wyf i'n credu mai dyna y mae ysgolion o gymeriad crefyddol eisiau ei wneud. Y rheswm na fyddan nhw eisiau ei wneud yw nad ydyn nhw'n mynd i fod eisiau i blentyn ddod ymlaen a honni nad oes sylw wedi'i roi i'r maes llafur cytunedig ac felly yn gofyn am faes llafur ar wahân. Felly, mae er budd ysgolion gwirfoddol a gynorthwyir i ddod o hyd i ffordd o osgoi hynny. Fy nghynnig i yw sicrhau bod ysgolion gwirfoddol a gynorthwyir yn defnyddio'r un egwyddor o 'roi sylw' i'r maes llafur cytunedig a'u gweithredoedd a'u hegwyddorion, ac mae hynny'n dileu'r demtasiwn a'r cyfle i gwyno bod arweinwyr ysgolion yn trin y ddau bwysau hyn ar eu proses o wneud penderfyniadau mewn ffordd sy'n llai na chyfartal. Nid yw'n faich ychwanegol ar yr ysgolion hyn, oherwydd eu bod yn ystyried eu gweithredoedd a'u hegwyddorion beth bynnag wrth benderfynu ar gwricwlwm addysg grefyddol yr ysgol. Felly, ynghyd â gwelliant 16, mae'r gwelliannau hyn yn helpu ysgolion gwirfoddol a gynorthwyir i lywio'r newidiadau yn y rhan hon o'r cwricwlwm cenedlaethol newydd mewn ffordd sydd â llai o risg. Nawr, rwy'n deall bod y gweithredoedd a'r egwyddorion yn hanfodol i ethos ysgol o gymeriad crefyddol, neu fel arall ni fydden nhw gennym ni. Nid yw hyn yn ymwneud â lleihau hyn; mae'n ymwneud â dileu'r cyfle i hepgor rhannau o addysg plentyn y byddai yn eu cael yn rhywle arall, mae'n ymwneud â pheidio ag amddifadu plentyn o wybodaeth am y byd, a pheidio â rhoi taw ar gwestiynau, neu, os yw ysgol yn ceisio gwneud hynny, i'w rhoi mewn sefyllfa lle mae'n rhaid iddyn nhw, yn blwmp ac yn blaen, ddangos eu gwaith ynghylch sut y maen nhw wedi dod i'w penderfyniad ar yr hyn y byddan nhw'n ei addysgu. Ac ni allaf weld y byddai'r ffordd hon ymlaen yn cyfyngu ar addysgu enwadol. Bydd plant mewn ysgol grefyddol yn naturiol yn disgwyl hynny, ond mae'r gwelliannau hyn yn golygu na all addysgu enwadol fynd mor bell â rhwystro gwybodaeth neu ymholiad plant, oherwydd ni allai hynny fod yn ganlyniad rhesymegol i ddyletswydd 'rhoi sylw' wedi'i arfer yn gywir o ran y maes llafur cytunedig. Gofynnais i i chi geisio aros gyda hyn - mae'n gymhleth. Er mwyn helpu ysgolion i wybod sut i ddefnyddio'r ddyletswydd 'rhoi sylw' hon, mae gennym ni welliant 16, ac mae hyn yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol i'r Llywodraeth gyflwyno rheoliadau sy'n nodi'r gofynion tystiolaethol lleiaf sydd eu hangen i ddangos bod y ddyletswydd i roi sylw wedi'i harfer yn briodol. A gallai hyn fod yr un mor hawdd â chanllawiau statudol, ond hoffwn i gadw at reoliadau at ddibenion y ddadl. Mae hyn yn angenrheidiol gan fod gwelliant 18 yn rhoi'r hawl i rieni, a'r plant eu hunain, wrth gwrs, herio eu hysgol o gymeriad crefyddol ai peidio ar y sail nad ydyn nhw wedi cael maes llafur crefydd, gwerthoedd a moeseg priodol oherwydd nad yw'r ysgol honno, pa fath bynnag o ysgol ydyw hi, wedi arfer eu dyletswydd 'rhoi sylw' yn iawn. Felly, yn ogystal â sicrhau nad yw disgyblion mewn ysgolion anghrefyddol yn cael eu tynnu i ganol nonsens gwallgof gan nad yw eu hysgol wedi ystyried y maes llafur cytunedig, mae'n ffordd well ymlaen i ysgolion o gymeriad crefyddol hefyd. Mae'n llawer gwell cael mecanwaith sy'n addasu eu maes llafur na darparu ar gyfer sefyllfa lle mae gan blentyn hawl i fynnu un newydd ar wahân. Nawr, Llywydd, nid wyf i'n disgwyl i'r Llywodraeth gytuno â hyn, oherwydd maen nhw wedi treulio amser diddiwedd yn ceisio cynnig ateb i'r un broblem ag sydd gennyf i - cwricwlwm crefydd, gwerthoedd a moeseg cytbwys ym mhob ysgol gan barchu ethos craidd ysgol o gymeriad crefyddol yn llawn. Ond yr hyn yr hoffwn i ei weld, Gweinidog, yw deall a ydych chi wedi ystyried y llwybr yr wyf i wedi'i gynnig ac, os felly, pam yr ydych chi wedi'i ddiystyru o blaid dewis mwy, a dweud y gwir, cosbol a beichus. Rwy'n credu y gallai fod yn werth nodi hefyd fod fy ngwelliannau i yma wedi dod i sylw'r Athro Sandberg o ysgol y gyfraith a gwleidyddiaeth Prifysgol Caerdydd. Nid wyf i erioed wedi cyfarfod ag ef, felly rwy'n hynod ddiolchgar iddo am sylwi arnyn nhw, a'r rheswm ynghylch hynny yw ei fod yn gyfreithiwr, ac felly mae'n effro i effeithiau ymarferol deddfwriaeth a'i gwerth i ymarferwyr sy'n gorfod ei chymhwyso wrth roi cyngor neu ddatrys anghydfodau. Yn ei ddarn ar gyfer Law & Religion UK, mae'n dweud bod fy ngwelliannau'n werth eu hystyried, gan eu bod yn sicrhau bod pob disgybl yn cael: cyfle i fanteisio ar faes llafur sy'n cael ei lywio gan grefydd, gwerthoedd a moeseg nad ydyn nhw'n enwadol ond nid i eithrio crefydd, gwerthoedd a moeseg enwadol mewn ysgolion o gymeriad crefyddol, lle mae crefydd, gwerthoedd a moeseg yn cyfateb i'r ddau. I bob pwrpas, mae'n dweud eu bod yn cysoni'r cylch, ac mae'n argymell eich bod chi'n cefnogi'r gwelliannau hyn, ac felly, yn amlwg, yr wyf fi. Diolch yn fawr iawn.