English: I welcome this opportunity to debate the devolution settlement. This is something we need to do. Can I make, initially, three general comments? Asymmetrical devolution does not work; Plaid Cymru appear to have a policy of salami-slicing to separatism, and we need a final, defined position on devolution to Wales, and, more importantly, within Wales. I am and have long been a supporter of devo max, and also of devolution within Wales to both the four Welsh regions and to local authorities. Fifty years ago, local government controlled water and sewage, further education, higher education outside university and directly controlled schools. Prior to 1950, policing was controlled by local authorities. All those and more have been taken out of local authority control. I support devo max, a movement to symmetrical devolution, but that must include English regions. A model of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland cannot work; England is too big compared to the rest. Any model has to involve the English regions, not just England. There are the obvious areas that need to be held centrally unless you have independence. They are things such as defence, foreign affairs, national security, currency, interest rates, overseas aid, immigration, driver and car licensing, central bank and national insurance numbers. Everything outside of the above should be able to be devolved, but doesn't necessarily need to be devolved. Devolution in Wales does not have to end in Cardiff. Devolution within Wales is possible to be given to the four regions in Wales, and also to local authorities. We've had far too much centralism in Cardiff. Taking police, security at Westminster, serious crime - . Taking policing - . Security at Westminster, I think, dealing with serious crime at Cardiff, but local policing returned to local authorities who know what is needed to keep their areas safe. There are those areas that we were discussing whether they should be devolved or centralized. State pension age and amount - should we have one for the United Kingdom, or should each jurisdiction set its own? How would that work with movement between England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, including people living in Wales and working in England, and the other way around? And many people, and I include myself in that, have worked in England for a short time. Should we have one unified social security system, or should the levels be set by each of the areas? Should there be UK taxes to pay for the centrally-funded items, with all other taxes devolved and collected locally? How will financial support from the wealthier to the poorer regions be organised and maintained? Despite legitimate criticism of the Barnett formula, and I've been one of those to criticise it, it has provided additional funding to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland compared to England, and it does take into account need - not as much as we might want it to, but we get more than we put in, and we get more than 100 per cent of what's been spent in England. And I think that looking to throw it out, without anything else in its place, can only do us harm. Everything does not have to be devolved to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland or the English city regions at the same time. What we need is a list of items that are available to be devolved, with each Parliament needing at least two thirds of Members voting in favour before it is devolved. Why do I say that? Well, this is what happened in Northern Ireland when policing was devolved to Northern Ireland. This avoids a big-bang devolution where control of everything passes on one day, but allows for matters to be devolved as the Parliaments are ready for them, and, more importantly, the funding is agreed. And I think that many a Member will remember a previous Member of Plaid Cymru who said, 'Well, if we have policing devolved to us, we'll get 1.05 per cent of what we - we'll get 5 per cent more than we currently get to policing because of the way the devolution formula works.' That's good news, and Steffan Lewis was arguing in favour of devolution of policing, but I think that if we're going to do these things, we're going to have to try and become economically viable as well in terms of what we can and can't afford to do. It sets an end point to the devolution journey outside of creating new countries. It allows each to move at a pace it is comfortable with, but a common end point. Finally, devolution in Wales - again, I come back to this - does not have to end in Cardiff. It doesn't come down the M4 and stop. Devolution within Wales is possible, not just to the four regions, but also to the local authorities. What would be better dealt with by local authorities? The twentieth-century saw one-way movement out of local authorities centrally. We need to start moving more things back to local authorities. The question should be, 'Where is it best dealt with?', not, 'How much can we claim and how much can we take from local authorities at one end and Westminster at the other?' Devolution in Wales is a journey, but it must not only end in Cardiff. For true devolution, powers also need to be devolved to the regions and the councils of Wales. We need to think about devolving in Wales, not, 'When in doubt, put it in Cardiff.'
Welsh: Rwy'n croesawu'r cyfle hwn i drafod y setliad datganoli. Mae hyn yn rhywbeth y mae angen i ni ei wneud. A gaf fi wneud tri sylw cyffredinol i ddechrau? Nid yw datganoli anghymesur yn gweithio; ymddengys bod gan Blaid Cymru bolisi tameidiog ar ymwahanu, ac mae arnom angen safbwynt terfynol, diffiniedig ar ddatganoli i Gymru, ac yn bwysicach, o fewn Cymru. Rwyf wedi cefnogi 'devo max' ers tro byd, a datganoli o fewn Cymru hefyd i bedwar rhanbarth Cymru ac i awdurdodau lleol. Hanner can mlynedd yn ôl, roedd llywodraeth leol yn rheoli dŵr a charthffosiaeth, addysg bellach, addysg uwch y tu allan i'r brifysgol ac ysgolion a reolir yn uniongyrchol. Cyn 1950, rheolid plismona gan awdurdodau lleol. Mae rheolaeth ar y pethau hynny a mwy wedi'i thynnu o ddwylo awdurdodau lleol. Rwy'n cefnogi 'devo max', y symud tuag at ddatganoli cymesur, ond rhaid i hynny gynnwys rhanbarthau Lloegr. Ni all model o Gymru, Lloegr, yr Alban a Gogledd Iwerddon weithio; mae Lloegr yn rhy fawr o'i chymharu â'r gweddill. Rhaid i unrhyw fodel gynnwys rhanbarthau Lloegr, nid Lloegr yn unig. Ceir y meysydd amlwg y mae angen eu cynnal yn ganolog oni bai bod gennych annibyniaeth. Maent yn cynnwys pethau fel amddiffyn, materion tramor, diogelwch cenedlaethol, arian cyfred, cyfraddau llog, cymorth tramor, mewnfudo, trwyddedu gyrwyr a cheir, banc canolog a rhifau yswiriant gwladol. Dylai fod modd datganoli popeth ar wahân i'r uchod, er nad oes angen eu datganoli o reidrwydd. Nid oes raid i ddatganoli yng Nghymru ddod i ben yng Nghaerdydd. Mae datganoli o fewn Cymru yn bosibl i'r pedwar rhanbarth yng Nghymru, a hefyd i awdurdodau lleol. Rydym wedi cael llawer gormod o ganoli yng Nghaerdydd. Yr heddlu, diogelwch yn San Steffan, troseddau difrifol - . Plismona - . Diogelwch yn San Steffan, rwy'n credu, ymdrin â throseddau difrifol yng Nghaerdydd, ond bod plismona lleol yn dychwelyd i awdurdodau lleol sy'n gwybod beth sydd ei angen i gadw eu hardaloedd yn ddiogel. Mae yna feysydd roeddem yn trafod a ddylid eu datganoli neu eu canoli. Oedran a swm pensiwn y wladwriaeth - a ddylem gael un ar gyfer y Deyrnas Unedig, neu a ddylai pob awdurdodaeth bennu drosti ei hun? Sut y byddai hynny'n gweithio gyda symud rhwng Cymru, Lloegr, yr Alban a Gogledd Iwerddon, gan gynnwys pobl sy'n byw yng Nghymru ac sy'n gweithio yn Lloegr, a'r ffordd arall? Ac mae llawer o bobl, ac rwy'n cynnwys fy hun yn hynny, wedi gweithio yn Lloegr am gyfnod byr. A ddylem gael un system nawdd cymdeithasol unedig, neu a ddylai pob un o'r ardaloedd bennu'r lefelau? A ddylid cael trethi'r DU i dalu am yr eitemau a ariennir yn ganolog, gyda'r holl drethi eraill wedi'u datganoli a'u casglu'n lleol? Sut y bydd cymorth ariannol gan y rhanbarthau mwy cyfoethog i'r rhanbarthau tlotach yn cael ei drefnu a'i gynnal? Er y feirniadaeth ddilys o fformiwla Barnett, ac rwyf wedi bod yn un o'r rhai sydd wedi ei beirniadu, mae wedi darparu cyllid ychwanegol i Gymru, yr Alban a Gogledd Iwerddon o'i gymharu â Lloegr, ac mae'n ystyried angen - nid cymaint ag y byddem am iddi wneud, ond rydym yn cael mwy nag a roddwn i mewn, ac rydym yn cael mwy na 100 y cant o'r hyn sydd wedi'i wario yn Lloegr. Ac nid wyf yn credu bod unrhyw fudd i geisio cael gwared ar y fformiwla heb fod unrhyw beth arall yn ei le. Nid oes raid datganoli popeth i Gymru, yr Alban a Gogledd Iwerddon na dinas-ranbarthau Lloegr ar yr un pryd. Yr hyn sydd ei angen arnom yw rhestr o eitemau sydd ar gael i'w datganoli, a bod pob Senedd angen o leiaf ddwy ran o dair o'r Aelodau i bleidleisio o blaid cyn iddynt gael eu datganoli. Pam y dywedaf hynny? Wel, dyma a ddigwyddodd yng Ngogledd Iwerddon pan ddatganolwyd plismona i Ogledd Iwerddon. Mae'n osgoi datganoli sydyn lle trosglwyddir rheolaeth ar bopeth mewn un diwrnod, ond mae'n caniatáu i faterion gael eu datganoli wrth i'r Seneddau ddod yn barod ar eu cyfer, ac yn bwysicach, wrth gytuno ar gyllid. A chredaf y bydd llawer o'r Aelodau'n cofio Aelod blaenorol o Blaid Cymru'n dweud, 'Wel, os cawn blismona wedi'i ddatganoli i ni, byddwn yn cael 1.05 y cant o'r hyn a - cawn 5 y cant yn fwy nag a wnawn ar hyn o bryd ar gyfer plismona oherwydd y ffordd y mae'r fformiwla ddatganoli'n gweithio.' Mae hynny'n newyddion da, ac roedd Steffan Lewis yn dadlau o blaid datganoli plismona, ond os ydym am wneud y pethau hyn, rwy'n credu y bydd yn rhaid inni geisio dod yn hyfyw yn economaidd hefyd o ran yr hyn y gallwn ac na allwn fforddio ei wneud. Mae'n gosod pwynt terfyn ar y daith ddatganoli y tu hwnt i greu gwledydd newydd. Mae'n caniatáu i bob un symud ar gyflymder y mae'n gyfforddus ag ef, ond pwynt terfyn cyffredin. Yn olaf, nid oes raid i ddatganoli yng Nghymru - unwaith eto, dychwelaf at hyn - ddod i ben yng Nghaerdydd. Nid yw'n dod i lawr yr M4 ac yna'n stopio. Mae datganoli o fewn Cymru'n bosibl, nid yn unig i'r pedwar rhanbarth, ond hefyd i'r awdurdodau lleol. Beth fyddai'n well i awdurdodau lleol ymdrin ag ef? Gwelodd yr ugeinfed ganrif symudiad un ffordd o awdurdodau lleol i'r canol. Mae angen inni ddechrau symud mwy o bethau yn ôl i awdurdodau lleol. Dylai'r cwestiwn ofyn, 'Ble y gellir ymdrin ag ef yn y ffordd orau?', nid, 'Faint y gallwn ei hawlio a faint y gallwn ei gymryd oddi wrth awdurdodau lleol ar un pen a San Steffan ar y pen arall?' Mae datganoli yng Nghymru yn daith, ond ni ddylai ddod i ben yng Nghaerdydd. I ddatganoli go iawn, mae angen datganoli pwerau hefyd i ranbarthau a chynghorau Cymru. Mae angen inni feddwl am ddatganoli yng Nghymru, nid, 'Os oes amheuaeth, rhowch ef yng Nghaerdydd.'