English: Yes, of course, I do recognise that, and I also recognise that it's possible to participate in Horizon 2020 post Brexit, and I think that's the point that Llyr Huws Gruffydd is making, which is a very important point. These things should be discussed and should be on the table, but the point I'm making is that there are opportunities for universities to develop other relationships internationally, outside of that, and I think that probably, because of the over-reliance on Horizon 2020, there may have been a lack of focus on developing those links from some of our Welsh universities The same, of course, applies to Erasmus+ - it's an important scheme, it enables a programme of exchange, but it's not the only programme of exchange operating in Wales and it's not the only programme of exchange operating across the UK. I think we don't do it justice, the university sector, to say that that is the be all and end all in terms of those exchange programmes. Just in terms of visas, if I may for a few moments, there are visa programmes that currently work that support postgraduate students to be able to get entitlements to stay in the UK to start their own businesses, there are ones that entitle them to stay in the UK if they have a job offer, there are ones that entitle people to stay and study beyond a postgraduate course as well. The reason that the visa regime changed was because there was widespread abuse. We know that there was widespread abuse - there were many colleges that were allowing people to have visas on the basis when they shouldn't have been, particularly in terms of English language qualifications. Many of those, of course, were in that nation - India, Pakistan and others that were referred to in the opening of this debate. That's why the visa regime changed. Now, where I do agree with Plaid Cymru is that we need to exclude students from those net migration figures, and that's why we'll be supporting that particular part of the motion today. But I do hope that you'll understand that we need to have some reciprocal arrangement as well with the EU, in terms of citizenship and the ability to stay at work in those universities where we have staff employed. I appreciate the uncertainty is not helpful at the moment, but that needs to be reciprocal in the future.
Welsh: Ie, wrth gwrs, rwy'n cydnabod hynny, ac rwyf hefyd yn cydnabod ei bod yn bosibl cymryd rhan yn Horizon 2020 ar ôl Brexit, ac rwy'n credu mai dyna'r pwynt y mae Llyr Huws Gruffydd yn ei wneud, sy'n bwynt pwysig iawn. Dylai'r pethau hyn gael eu trafod a dylent fod ar y bwrdd, ond y pwynt rwy'n ei wneud yw bod yna gyfleoedd i brifysgolion ddatblygu cysylltiadau eraill yn rhyngwladol, y tu allan i hynny, a chredaf yn ôl pob tebyg, oherwydd yr orddibyniaeth ar Horizon 2020, efallai bod diffyg ffocws wedi bod ar ddatblygu'r cysylltiadau hynny yn rhai o'n prifysgolion yng Nghymru. Mae'r un peth, wrth gwrs, yn berthnasol i Erasmus + - mae'n gynllun pwysig, mae'n galluogi rhaglen gyfnewid, ond nid dyma'r unig raglen gyfnewid sy'n gweithredu yng Nghymru ac nid dyma'r unig raglen gyfnewid sy'n gweithredu ar draws y DU. Rwy'n credu nad ydym yn gwneud cyfiawnder â'r sector prifysgolion drwy ddweud mai dyma'r unig gynllun o bwys o ran y rhaglenni cyfnewid hynny. O ran fisâu, os caf am ychydig eiliadau, mae yna raglenni fisa ar waith ar hyn o bryd sy'n cynorthwyo myfyrwyr ôl-raddedig i gael hawl i aros yn y DU er mwyn dechrau eu busnesau eu hunain, mae yna rai sy'n rhoi hawl iddynt aros yn y DU os ydynt wedi cael cynnig swydd, mae yna rai sy'n rhoi hawl i bobl aros ac astudio y tu hwnt i gwrs ôl-raddedig yn ogystal. Y rheswm pam y newidiodd y gyfundrefn fisâu oedd oherwydd ei bod yn cael ei chamddefnyddio'n eang. Rydym yn gwybod ei bod yn cael ei chamddefnyddio - roedd llawer o golegau'n caniatáu i bobl gael fisas pan na ddylent fod wedi'u cael, yn enwedig mewn perthynas â chymwysterau iaith Saesneg. Roedd llawer o'r rheini, wrth gwrs, yn y wlad honno - India, Pacistan ac eraill y cyfeiriwyd atynt wrth agor y ddadl hon. Dyna pam y mae'r gyfundrefn fisa wedi newid. Nawr, rwy'n cytuno â Phlaid Cymru o ran yr angen i ni eithrio myfyrwyr o'r ffigurau mudo net hynny, a dyna pam y byddwn yn cefnogi'r rhan benodol honno o'r cynnig heddiw. Ond rwy'n gobeithio y byddwch yn deall bod angen i ni gael rhywfaint o drefniant o'r ochr arall hefyd â'r UE, o ran dinasyddiaeth a'r gallu i barhau i weithio yn y prifysgolion lle y mae gennym staff yn cael eu cyflogi. Rwy'n derbyn nad yw'r ansicrwydd yn helpu dim ar hyn o bryd, ond mae angen i hynny fod yn ddwyochrog yn y dyfodol.