English: This debate should be about more than whether it is morally right to smack a child or whether it is good parenting ever to use physical chastisement. If it were just about that, then my view is that it is not and, for my own children, I have not smacked them and I hope to bring them up without ever physically chastising them. But that is not sufficient, that view, to vote for this legislation because there is a further step: is it right to go from one's own personal moral view about this to saying, 'That is a view that we shall use our powers here to impose on the rest of society'? I'm not convinced that we're at this point. The Deputy Minister rightly spoke about social norms, and I wouldn't want to put any emphasis on any particular poll or any particular survey, but I'm concerned that those changes in society - smacking and corporal punishment, certainly as we used to see, are not the social norms they were. But I fear that there are still too many people, too large a group of parents who take a different view of this to that which I personally take. And for that reason, I think this should remain, for now at least, an issue determined by parents, within marriages, within relationships, within families. I say that from a pragmatic more than a principled view. There may come a time when the changes in social norms are such that it may be appropriate to legislate, that something becomes so transgressive of social norms that there is legislation and there is criminalisation, but I don't believe that that time is yet, simply because there are too many loving families who still use physical chastisement because their views on the matter are different from mine. And I -
Welsh: Dylai'r ddadl hon fod ynghylch mwy na pha un a yw hi'n foesol gywir i smacio plentyn neu a yw byth yn rhianta da i ddefnyddio cosb gorfforol. Pe byddai'n ymwneud â hynny'n unig, yna fy marn i yw nad ydyw ac, o ran fy mhlant fy hun, nid wyf wedi eu smacio ac rwyf yn gobeithio eu magu nhw heb eu ceryddu'n gorfforol byth. Ond nid yw hynny'n ddigon, y farn honno, i bleidleisio dros y ddeddfwriaeth hon gan fod cam pellach: a yw'n iawn i symud o'ch safbwynt moesol personol eich hun ynghylch hyn i ddweud, 'Mae honno'n farn y byddwn ni'n defnyddio ein pwerau yma i'w gorfodi ar weddill y gymdeithas'? Nid wyf i'n argyhoeddedig ein bod ni wedi cyrraedd y pwynt hwnnw. Siaradodd y Dirprwy Weinidog yn ddigon teg am norm cymdeithasol, ac ni fyddwn i eisiau rhoi unrhyw bwyslais ar unrhyw bleidlais benodol nac unrhyw arolwg penodol, ond rwyf yn pryderu nad yw'r newidiadau hynny mewn cymdeithas - smacio a chosbi corfforol, yn norm cymdeithasol fel yr oedden nhw o'r blaen. Ond rwy'n ofni bod gormod o bobl o hyd, grŵp rhy fawr o rieni sydd â barn wahanol ar hyn i fy marn bersonol i. Ac am y rheswm hwnnw, rwy'n credu y dylai hyn aros, ar hyn o bryd o leiaf, yn fater sy'n cael ei benderfynu gan rieni, o fewn priodasau, o fewn perthnasoedd, o fewn teuluoedd. Rwy'n dweud hynny o safbwynt pragmatig yn hytrach nag egwyddorol. Efallai y daw amser pan fydd y newidiadau mewn norm cymdeithasol yn golygu y gallai fod yn briodol i ddeddfu, bod rhywbeth yn tramgwyddo ar norm cymdeithasol i'r fath raddau fel bod deddfu a throseddoli, ond nid wyf yn credu bod yr amser hwnnw wedi cyrraedd eto, yn syml oherwydd bod gormod o deuluoedd cariadus sy'n dal i ddefnyddio cosb gorfforol oherwydd bod eu barn ar y mater yn wahanol i fy un i. Ac rwyf -