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QRL End of June Quantum News Update - E09

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So Honeywell CEO Darius Adams-Eck announced that it would bring the world's most powerful


quantum computer to market back in March.


Honeywell?


Yes, Honeywell, the same company that most consumers associate with.


HVAC, thermostats, air purifiers is behind the scenes creating one of the most state of the


art trapped ion quantum computers.


Now, trapped ions are being used by many of the major manufacturers due to their long


decoherence times.


Fast forward three months to June 2020 and Honeywell's news announcement is that they have built


the world's fastest quantum computer when measured in IBM's quantum value.


Keep in mind, there are already two commercial quantum computers available, one from


B-Wave and one from IBM that was announced last year.


In short, this means it appears two major manufacturers will have brought quantum computers to


market in just as many years.


Honeywell claims that their quantum computer that has a quantum volume of 64 is now the world's


fastest.


You're probably asking what is quantum volume?


So according to IBM, quantum volume is a hardware agnostic metric that was defined to measure


the performance of a real quantum computer.


While classical computer analogies are notorious for not accurately describing the strangeness


of the quantum world and therefore how fast one actually is, there's still basically the best


thing that we have in order to be able to communicate with each other on performance metrics.


So much of this is a lot like the frequency of a CPU and it's expressed in gigahertz is not


really the whole story, just as neither is the number of qubits.


A full discussion around quantum volume is outside the scope of this video but simply put,


it means to take into consideration things like errors, optimizations, decoherance times,


cross talk and overall there's about 11 different metrics that are baselineed across


I think it was about 220 different algorithms in order to determine what quantum volume is.


In addition, according to Forbes magazine with a team of more than 100 technologists,


Honeywell appears to be pioneering cloud-based quantum computer services by claiming to already


have a partnership with JP Morgan Chase and are positioning themselves to be able to charge around


$10,000 or no work for its machine.


The kind of puts a lot of those mining rigs on nice hash to shame.


Even more shocking, Honeywell plans to increase the quantum value of this machine by a


factor of 10 over the next five years. For a total quantum volume of 640,000,


no weathering out this actually comes true remains to be seen,


well Honeywell be able to meet its target, we'll see.


So will quantum volume be the standard by which other quantum machines are measured in the future?


I'm not really sure. But it could be argued that one interpretation of good-harts law,


being any observed statistical regularity will tend to collapse once pressure is placed upon


it for control purposes could easily translate into once you set quantum volume as the goal it


ceases to become a good goal. Time will tell, but I did have the opportunity to post this question


to Mikael Mulska, who is the deputy director at the Institute for Quantum Computing at the


University of Waterloo. He indicated that he doesn't quite see any reason why the current


trapped on-in approaches can't be brought to scale. So Singapore-based horizon quantum computing


announced that it has increased its financing to $3.2 million. So from what I can tell,


Horizon wants to develop tools that are taking existing programs written for conventional computers


and automating the process to adapt them to quantum computers. While I don't think this means


you'll be playing on a quantum powered Xbox anytime soon, I think that research in this field


is definitely a step in the right direction. There is enough mainstream confusion at the atomic


layer on how devices operate, so I think increasing awareness around how to port existing code


is a good idea. It helps build quantum knowledge into learning schemas for programmers to communicate


and understand how quantum computers work. But I'm definitely looking forward to seeing their


progress on this. Dare I say a project roadmap might be a good idea to see what they have planned?


Possibly. Lastly, don't forget to subscribe. If you don't quite feel like you're up to speed


on what's being called this quantum threat, paste your comments or questions below.


Review some of our previous videos, visit the website at www.duckurl.org


or feel free to jump in and talk to us directly in Discord. Thanks for watching.


The QRL Show with Advisor Robby Dermody on Crypto, NFT’s, RAREPEPE’s and more

In today's episode, we are joined by Robbie Dermatti to talk all things crypto, NFTs,


rarepebays, and if you can even in the future make a quantum secure NFT.


Let's dive in to today's exciting episode.


Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Quantum Resistant Ledger Channel,


the place where you come for the crypto and stay for the quantum. We're really excited for today's episode.


We have Robbie Dermatti with us and we are going to be talking all things crypto, NFTs,


rarepebays, and a little bit more in today's episode.


I'm just excited to have this conversation to discuss NFTs not only in the present with all the hype going on around it today,


but also maybe talking a little bit about the evolution and also importantly,


can you make NFT quantum secure? Maybe talking about that a little bit later in the episode.


With me for our episode today is my co-host Michael Strike, who is our director of outreach at the QRL.


Strange. Good to have you. Thank you.


And Robbie Dermatti, who is with us as well. Robbie, thanks for joining us.


Yeah, good to be here.


Cool. What I think would be a good starting place to get a little context for the audience for today's episode,


would be maybe as a starting point before we talk and dive into the core NFT part of the episode.


Robbie, could you maybe give us a little bit of background on your experience in,


you know, when you get involved in crypto? For those of you watching, I think it's important to


kind of have context on this first before we move into the core of the episode.


Yeah, sure. I first got involved. I heard about Bitcoin in 2011 or 2010, but I wasn't doing,


I wasn't, I was busy with the business building business at the time, so I don't pay much attention.


Then I think it was late 2012, early like January 2013, I finally actually got started.


And you hear about it and people have a, the problem is whether you actually learn about it


yourself or you actually are reading what people are saying about it. And at that time,


I think a lot of people had, it was so new. Everybody, a lot of people thought it was a pyramid


scheme or scam or whatnot. Obviously, people still think that. But instead of that second time I


came around to it, instead of relying on reading comments or something, I said, well, let me just


check this Bitcoin thing out. So I looked at the white paper and dug more into it. And that was


hooked from that point. I just started messing around with some mining equipment and also just


getting into the wild world of, it was all on Bitcoin talk at the time, which is the historical


Bitcoin form. So just diving into that. So yeah, really early 2013, and then just, that was also


the year they had their first ICO, which was from a project called Mastercoin. That's what it was


called at the time. It's omnie today. So I was one of the investors in that. But that's kind of


more than it gets into the kind of party history. So that's the answer to your initial question.


Yeah, thanks for covering that. Did you just give us like a minute or two kind of background on


and I know that this is obviously a broad question, but just give us a little, you know,


background context on counterparty and that will leave nicely, I think, into the NFC portion of our


conversation. Yeah, so, you know, at the time with Bitcoin, Bitcoin has an internal scripting language,


but historically had been more powerful, but there was a security concern, Satoshi turned off


several of the different, the home op codes in the scripting language. So over time was made a


little bit less powerful. And then there's obviously been things added over time. So Bitcoin itself


actually had a smart contracts functionality built into it, but it's not kind of the common,


you know, colloquial usage of smart contracts as people think today. But despite that, there was a


lot of things you couldn't really do directly on Bitcoin. So there was kind of a movement.


Mastercoin was the first project that the guy who started at JAR, because last name, but JAR had had


JAR will it was his name. He had an idea that why can't we extend the functionality of Bitcoin


by dumping this data essentially into a Bitcoin address. So you essentially send little tiny bits


of Bitcoin to a not an address that isn't actually an address as someone has a private key for. But


that data can then be parsed apart and read by a certain program that that grabs and parses the


Bitcoin blockchain data. And it can add all sorts of different functionality. Mastercoin, we invested


in it. I actually met the guys behind Counterparty, they were two other investors in this project.


And we started to launch Counterparty because I think there was a management slash execution


issues on the mastercoin side. They had a lot of big ideas because indeed you could do a lot of


really cool stuff with this, but actually kind of executing on that at the time at least was the issue.


So from that standpoint, we hit the ground running, you know, one of the other co-founders


that wrote mostly the initial code and then we launched it in January. It was command line only when


it came out, but it was all basically a feature company project in January. And then I wrote the first


wallet software and some of the other software around it. And this thing, you could day one, you could


use a decentralized exchange. I think it was a first working, the first working decentralized exchange,


I believe project. We had, I think, the first big coin fully decentralized bet was for the 2014


Super Bowl. We had some of the first NFTs. You know, there were some talk whether colored coins


was that or they there wasn't, you know, I think it's early back in the early 2000, how Finney


mentioned that is an idea. But I think it's ambiguous like what the first NFT was because the term,


we can get into this. The term itself is kind of ambiguous. Yeah, the weeds of house,


specifically what specifically is would count as the first one. I know if you look on online,


if someone who's just quickly on their side brows, it's like you're going to call different answers.


Yeah. And you'll see like you look at the Wikipedia page, they can, they take a really hard line,


they consider NFT an actual non fungible token. So something with a quantity of one,


which is not how it's used, you know, in by most people, how most people think of NFTs,


they think of more like collectible things that trade around with tokens, they may or may not have a


quantity of one. Remember when I heard the word first that I was confusing as to what NFT meant


because what, you know, fungible, it's not something that you would hear unless you study monetary


history or you study crypto or something like that. Are you a Monero? Or you could be.


But essentially, if you distill what it is, it basically means, in at least in monetary history,


it means a five of a dollar and you've got a dollar, our dollars have the same purchasing value,


so they're essentially equal. But to your point, yeah, I mean, it doesn't kind of fits, but it


doesn't really because the NFT fungibility stops at the collection itself or.


Yeah, I think the person that came up with the term meant it as kind of a one of a kind


token or digital asset. So it's kind of a one of, but the thing is is that you could have like


limited sets like so for instance, some of these we talk about where our Peppy's, some of these are


like one of 50 or theirs. There's a hundred of these tokens in the sense. So they are limited,


they're just not one of one. But in any case, there wasn't early, I think it was in 2014, there was


an early token on Counterparty, it was called Olga, OLGA and this guy JP was one of the


community members made it. It wasn't one on one token. So it may be the first actual,


what you would consider an actual NFT. But there were things before Counterparty,


there was there were colored coins. But it is just, when you go back to how far it gets kind of


ambiguous. But the fact is that people had been messing around with that, this concept


is basically just digital collectibles. So or just representing things with tokens in general.


I mean, there were things back in the 20, I remember talking with the guys, the other


Counterparty founders in 2015 or something, and we were talking about tokenizing artwork. And you can


prove provenance through through the blockchain, essentially, you publish that data to the blockchain.


And there's startups doing that today. And we were talking about tokenizing, we were talking


about that someday artists are going to tokenize, have a token that corresponds to their share,


like you see with the question about people creating tokens for themselves and you can


get a ownership in that person. Like see, tokenizing people. Yeah, these are things we were talking


about back in 2014. We knew it was going to happen at some point. Not something I would ever do.


But I think that certainly gives you a OG status there. This is just like the next question that


I kind of was going to move into, which we've already covered briefly, the evolution NFTs, because I


think a lot of people, especially right now, there's just a, it's kind of as like, you know, with


Bitcoin Ethereum, but more masses of people getting introduced in space in a way different way than


they did when it was much smaller. But nowadays, a lot of people, you were to ask like an average


person that knows about entities today. They might just know, oh, hey, you go to open C and check


out what's going on or the latest projects on crypto Twitter. But maybe we could talk briefly


about rarepepis, because I think that's like one of the like projects from early on. And I


think maybe just kind of see what you guys were thinking when you were seeing what was happening


in counterpartie with that, you know, six, six years ago or so, or maybe then tie this in our next


question into, you know, present day NFTs and where stuff might lead. So just for context,


I'm going to pop up a rarepep photo on the side here for people that aren't familiar with them.


Could you give us a little context on how that came about within counterpartie? A few years back.


Warhol, Pepe, I think or something. Yeah, something like that. Yeah. Yeah. So I first learned


about rarepepis, because somebody, well, another member of the counterpartie community said,


hey, check this project out. And I didn't know about it. And you had all these these frog cards


trading on counterpartie. People were making these frog cards, you know, the Pepe cards,


you basically, if you go to rarepep a directory.com, there's a volume of what, 26 or


there's several, there's a lot of a few. Yeah. Yeah. series of these things. So there's several


hundred cards. They would they essentially, there's this guy Mike in the community. And he may,


I think he made the first three. And just for fun, it was just all, it was all just for fun back then.


And that's why I really liked it. And someone told me about it. I checked it out and I'm like,


man, this is awesome. They did this and I, and I didn't even, none of us, none of these counterpartie


us kind of pretty people that created the platform knew about it. And I'm like, I mean, it was just,


it's like, to me, it's great because it's permissionless innovation. Like people did stuff. And


then I didn't have any, I didn't have any role in it. So I found, I found this stuff along with like


just like anybody else would and started checking it out. I thought it was, I thought it was a


coolest thing pretty much immediately because it was cool because it was, it was really people


were just doing it for laughs and they were having fun with it. It wasn't all about making money.


And this stuff was, it wasn't worth much back then. You buy these things for, you know, a buck or two


and just, you know, digital pocket change. And, but it was people like doing the collecting and it


really, it really got the, what I like best about it is it really hooked people and got people's


got them really excited about using the technology. It was, it was and still is to this day the


biggest use of counter pretty blockchain. You think about the Bitcoin, Bitcoin itself as the kind


of the international reserve cryptocurrency and some amount of, then some non-trivial percentage


of transactions as people swapping fraud cards with each other. And that's just, it's funny.


And it's, I like, I think it's funny. I think that ties to the beauty too of just like with, with


technology in general of just seeing how a lot of times in the moment, even even stuff, which


we're going to get to in a few minutes with like the, all the hype around NFTs, what seems like


it might be a playful or you know, people are like, how are people doing all this stuff? And I know


there's more money involved today with like, you know, squiggles selling out and see for ridiculous


amounts. But it's, there's still a lot of beauty in it of like a lot of stuff that starts out as


fun, becomes some emerging technology. It ties together and you kind of, I say, you know, history


doesn't repeat itself, but I always say, you know, a lot of times it rhymes. So yeah, and then


Rob, how it starts out, you know, I mean, people having fun, that's how the big stuff started


out, you know, and I remember the theorem started out and it was just like imagination and at


the time and over time, you know, money interest comes in. But, I mean, I will say even when you


consider right now, at the last I checked, OpenC was the biggest gas user in Ethereum too. So


NFTs, you want Ethereum, they're the biggest use case right now at this moment.


So Rob, you think, I think from, from you to, from your chronological background, you and I first


heard about Bitcoin about the same time. And then I had a minor in like 2013, 30 gigahertz,


600, 700 bucks. Forgot. But it's something butterfly labs.


And make the milk crates you've taken. Oh, you had a butterfly labs. Okay.


I had a butterfly. I was 30 gigahertz and I, the, my question is between, okay, so when you first


heard about it, we're talking 2010, 2010, 2011, same for me. What did it feel like to you as far as


did this feel like, I'll not explain you how I felt I've said this before, like a novelty or


something that was real like this. It's one of those things, it's just, you, unless, unless you really,


really dig deep and could get past all of the noise around it, you really couldn't take it seriously


until it finally clicks. And it's one of those things that has to click for a person. It can't click,


and no one else can click it for you. You have to, you have to make that connection by yourself.


Oh, trustless, fair money, right, distributed, right, non central bank, same set of rules.


It's Bitcoin, you know, doesn't care what color you are religion, blah, blah, blah. It's


such, it's essentially a systemic monetary equality. But at the time, I remember, I was,


I was playing a video game at the time and it felt like money, like gold in a Diablo game,


if that makes sense, like in a video game, it's exactly what it felt like. You go on eBay and you


could buy a few thousand of them for 20 bucks. What did it feel like to you at that time, like,


how much, how intuitive were you? Did you see it? I mean, did you connect the dots right away?


Well, when I actually started looking into it, yeah, my background was with computer science and


I've always liked psychology. So I could see, I saw it from two different angles. I saw it from the


angle of, I started looking into economics after 2008 with the economic question. It was so


curious what happened. Like, I started, I took the deep dive into that and then I, yeah, so then


I saw Bitcoin came around and it just really answered, ticked a lot of those boxes for me just


a way that it was set up. And then I remember, then there's like the actual investment side of it,


too, which is, I could see the effects of, it was just such a big, huge innovation. I could see


that. It was the market share of it was just going to grow and grow. So I saw that too.


So I was very interested from both of those, both of those angles. But I think the thing that


really interested me is there's the actual financial use case of the token itself. And then


there's also all the follow on kind of use cases outside of the pure monetary token. And that's


what we were really doing is counterpart. Like, I mean, just, counterpart was both a really cool


experience and a pretty humbling experience in some ways because when we released these things,


we had some pretty complex financial smart contracts coded into it. They, well, binary options,


which is that aren't that complex. We had contracts for difference. We were planning on adding more.


So the original vision of counterpart was to be decentralized finance platform like, like, actual,


you know, financial contracts and more complex things moving into derivatives and


you know, fully decentralized financial contracts. Well, did not really care about,


I mean, you're talking about the community. They really attached to just creating tokens,


using the decks and trading fraud cards. And it was, you have to go with what the


technology's being used at the time. And it's when you think about how people are,


it's a perfect use case for it. I mean, it's, and it makes a lot of sense. And in the technology


is getting there and it's being, you started to see be used for that. But it's, you got to start


simple, I think that's what I've learned. When 2008 hit, and you brought up, I thought that was


a great answer because when 2008 happened, a lot of people wanted to know what happened, right?


And I didn't know what happened at the time. So I went down the monetary history rabbit hole. I


was following Mike Maloney and, you know, his, his hidden secrets of money video digging into


federal reserve from the initial, you know, from Jekyll's Island in 1911 to the Federal Reserve


that in 1913. And then I just became, honestly, almost obsessed with what, how, how money or


fiat, I'm going to call it fiat as, as Maloney does, which is because I agree with his assessment.


You know, it doesn't have a store of value and money should be a store of value.


I became very, very interested in how this came, how this came to be. And it is a slow,


it was a slow process. And it was a brilliant, brilliantly executed, but yet diabolical


process, right? And that, you know, that money can, you know, essentially fiat can come from


anywhere and debase the currency of the rest of the, you know, of every, as the world reserve


currency. And then being able to destroy purchasing power across the world indirectly,


having, being able to have other countries without them having to give us anything, pay for


our roads, pay for infrastructure, pay for social projects, pay, pay for everything, right? So,


and once I understood that, then I saw Bitcoin, but I didn't, I didn't, I didn't connect the use cases


as quick as you had it took me three entries in the crypto to finally have the, the proper neurons


connect. So, well, I mean, it was, it was big criminal computer science perspective. And,


you know, the south of Byzantine general problem, and it was big firm, and economic perspective.


But yeah, at the time, like it seemed, it's what they, it was, I quote about Bitcoin, it's a,


it's a, it's a, you know, paradigm change in technology dressed up as a pyramid scheme, basically.


It looks like a scam. And there's like, I always say like when I look back, because I think about


like obviously during the whole, you know, I was in university finishing up an economic,


so I understood like that side of it, but at that time, I obviously didn't have like purchasing


power. And I also, I didn't have the pillar enough of understanding that technology. So, I,


I should have, I learned about it, but I waited probably two, three more years till I actually


got, was like, okay, I'm, I'm bought it. It doesn't. I knew, I knew plenty of people that had


thousands of Bitcoin, and a lot of these guys funny enough were like,


ex professional poker players, because they were just attracted to risk, that was,


that was, they like that asymmetric fact. And they, they, they sold us some guys sold it for like,


one or five bucks at Bitcoin. They weren't Bitcoin before I was. And, and it's just like, even


if you were in early, you could be sitting and, you know, one of, one of the guys I know is friends


with, he's just working a plain old regular job. Well, there's a guy with the Bitcoin pizza, you know,


and he, he, he, he's old, and it looked like when I, I said, and then it was,


you know, whatever, yeah, blasyl. Yeah. And he, blasyl was living, he looked like it was living in a


plain old house, you know, like nothing like like a match or everything and just


like, no, no, no, no. Yeah. With it. Not to the other choice. Oh, yeah. There was, there was no way,


there was no way to know. I don't know anyone. Well, yeah. And he had a really good attitude on it.


And, you know, so it is really, it was just his car making it into, to, to, for that, to have it.


Yeah. Moving, moving from this kind of, we already covered kind of a little bit of the evolution


with NFTs, some of the stuff early on from what you're seeing from counter party,


uh, where Pepe is we've touched briefly on. I think a good question, uh, go into now would be


just talking about NFTs present day in 2021. A lot of stuff, uh, blowing up. We're seeing,


if you go to open sea, you're seeing a lot of big projects. It seems like every other day,


if you miss a new cycle for 24 hours, it's kind of that thongle or shiny object syndrome of missing


out. But I think it would be good to cover, um, NFTs. So, later, I think, uh, you had this,


this question, Michael, uh, latest Hulu or pet rock or emerging tech. So to break this question,


to make it sound a little bit better, maybe with all the NFT projects, a lot of the craze going on,


what do you see of being a couple use cases that even if 95, 98% of these projects, these things


and the space go to zero, what do you see as being, uh, promising on the technology site?


Because I think this is an important thing to discuss of what good underlying technology is, uh,


under some of these projects and where do you think it kind of leads, um, moving forward the next,


you know, not only six months, but maybe a couple of years. So when I think about, when I think about


Bitcoin by itself, I think about Bitcoin more like infrastructure, um, or, or, or old coins also


infrastructure as well to being able to, uh, move things around like routers and switches,


okay? I, I view it that way. I built, look, see them as platforms. Um, so with NFTs,


the reason NFTs became popular was because at first, okay, you have a, you have a immutable,


distributed consensus ledger, which you can move numbers around essentially. Now that became


very valuable with Bitcoin, obviously, because it was, you know, it was the first that fixed the


Byzantine general's problem, in a practical way. Um, but the reason that, I think, I think became


very popular is because all of a sudden you could have something visually appealing, um, for those


that didn't, for those that don't want to just look at balances, uh, debits checks and ledgers,


you know, back and forth, you had something that you could actually own, and provably own. And,


I mean, nowadays, realistically, what do we really own? I, I have a house. Can it be taken away?


I don't pay my property taxes. My house can be taken away. That can be seized. Um, um, um,


there's, there's so much, there's so much that there's, there's so much that there's so much,


that there's so many things of with ownership that come conditional or with counterparty risk,


that I think that NFTs in its current, uh, in its current state are probably a bit,


we'll eventually slow it on. I don't think they've peaked out yet. Um, but I think those are a bit


of a bubble, but the evolution of NFTs and NFT, uh, being specifically, um, an object, uh,


a car could be an NFT, a person could be an NFT artwork can be an NFT. Um, um, as we said,


there was someone that had tokenized himself and they have, uh, uh, uh, uh, I think it was that they


would be able to, if you own that NFT that you would be able to make decisions in their life.


Yeah. Yeah. Well stuff. What's, what's your take, Ravi? Um, yeah, I mean, I, I think,


Michael, you covered a few of the things, uh, I was going to bring up, but I think, um, that's here.


Yeah, I mean, certainly that the technology is in a bull cycle right now. I think it's to ask


the question you pose, it is a bit of hula hoops and pet rocks and it is, it is actually something real


behind it as well. So you called it a tech. Huh? You called it a tech. A technology. Uh, yeah,


I mean, non-fungible tokens, you want to, I think like digital collectibles are probably a better word,


um, but, um, part of it in the bull cycles, you do have like the greater full theory and steroids


working. Um, and I say it on steroid because it is due to, uh, the psychological influences of


scarcity. So you have enforced digital scarcity, which, you know, blockchains, uh, enable.


And with also, like you mentioned, there's that collectability aspect because it's not like a


three letter symbol that there's not much of an emotional connection to. There's, there's a picture


attached to it. There's a picture has a story. There's there. And there's kind of a, a feeling you get


from owning that, that asset, that card. It's just like you own a certain basketball cards.


That's a great point. Uh, it's your pleasure in the future. Yeah. It's like human nature too of like


people can say, hey, it seems silly, but like if you go back in each generation or each century,


it's like we think what people collected back in the day is silly. It's like we might think that


someone's grandparents collecting, uh, hobbles or other strange things are, are strange and they


might think that us collecting a digital asset is strange. And in, uh, over time, that it'll,


it'll keep evolving. But, um, it's everyone's perspective is a bit different. But that's probably


the more immediate thing over, I think, you know, economics, economics, geese will think about things like,


um, um, about bearer instrument, ceasing being bearer instruments, like you mentioned. But I


think for the standard people, uh, for everybody, you know, like people that aren't in


economics and even people that are all humans, there are those psychological influences. And


it is really kind of a, a, there's an identity associated with owning the asset. And there's a,


um, there's a specialness associated with owning something scarce. Um, and that's why people


collect everything, stamps, coins, um, they collect it for a financial use case as an investment.


But then there's also something with owning those things. You can prove it. For example,


how much, how much gold is there in the world? Okay, scrap that how much gold is important,


knocks. Okay, not audited since the 70s. So, we know gold is scarce, but I cannot tell you how much


a true value, how much an ounce of gold is worth. Um, it's good to pay it over a hundred,


ten times a hundred times. No, no, with, at least with blockchain, it's immutability and it's


a, and the, the, the cryptographic functions behind it, you can prove ownership. You can prove


scarcity. Where else can you prove scarcity? Okay, there's one monolisa. Okay.


Well, is there, actually, is there? Yeah. That, I mean, that's, that's part of it. You can


be taking that to the psychological face of that argument. You can say that there's, um, because


over when you consider, when you compare these things to physical collectibles, I think you're,


well, we're going to find, we're only seeing the infancy of this, but we're going to find that


these things are much more easily, um, exhibitable and, uh, displayable, um, than physicals are.


I think physicals, when you have something that has physical worth, uh, you can, if it's a lot of


physical worth, you can put it in an blended, opto and museum, you can have it in the point.


And you meet house, but it's a very limited reach where these things, you put it on your profile


and everyone all over the world is here. Yeah. No, no, Streg, I'm just adding on to what Robby's


saying and that like, I think it becomes a thing of even more so than it does today. I'm like,


you're, you're seeing this already the early parts of this on, you know, people on


crypto Twitter of changing their, no profile picture to like a crypto pod or a boardy, but what


I see as I'm getting with his and Twitter contest.


Jeez, he stepped so there was like a status aspect, but I think it becomes that of eventually it's like,


just as like, uh, a wealthy individual that's really an art might have someone come over and they


share with them their art collection. I see it as an evolution of being like, if you are sharing,


uh, on an online world and you know, the meta versa, like showing people, okay, hey, like,


I hold these digital assets and it's not always like a bragging type of way, but it's like,


I think it's just going to be a natural way of like, having, being able to, to show people


of provably that you, you hold certain digital assets and, and it will play out in more ways than


that. It is entirely possible that you two are more optimistic than I am in that certificates,


uh, COAs are, um, are, are always factual in things, in things like that. Um, if I go to an


art museum, I can't, I don't know for sure. Am I, am I going to, am I going to go through the


cost of bringing in my own, um, you know, um, uh, in order just to view it? No, nobody's going to do.


That doesn't make any sense. Um, but I, I like absolute. I like, I like truth. And if I think


part of it with this Rob, who you're talking about is you, things are factual. It takes a subjectivity,


any, any, any, any variable, any variability or subjectivity. And if he's removed that. So like,


in its current state, yeah, bit bubbly, in its evolved state, time will tell. Well, I think


you're right. But at the same time, like, it's, it's, I, I have made this mistake again and again,


I would overthink my assumptions and arguments. Those are all true. I think, but when you talk


about when you, when you start to enter the mainstream adoption, the mindset changes dramatically,


and it becomes much more like visceral, psychological, uh, kind of animal spirits driving things


at that point. And so I think those psychological forces, we, when, the early adopters and the pioneers


in Bitcoin, for instance, they got in it for totally different reasons than the people getting into


it now. And that's just how it is. I mean, it's just like, you know, these people have other jobs,


they do other things. They're not technologists. They're not economists. They're not, you know,


verse and all this stuff. And they're interested in it for different reasons. And just, it's just part


of mainstream adoption with anything. So, um, so I think, yeah, I mean, to go back to original question,


it is definitely a bull market. A lot of the stuff is going to end up being worth absolutely


nothing. But at the same time, I think there's a different market. It's going to be a bit of a


different market behavior when in the bear markets, I think, because, because of that collectability


emotional attachment, I think people will probably more so than tokens. My thought is that they're


not going to want to let these things go at a loss. So a lot of its stuff, you may just see no,


um, kind of just the markets become more illiquid. And the price goes on to a certain thing,


and then they just become more illiquid until the next bull market. So, but most of this,


the thing with NFTs, I think that matters the most, there's two things. The first is history.


Like you can't, like I said before, you can't inflate history. Like you can, you see,


there's so much supply side inflation with NFTs, because anybody can put a squiggle up on


open sea and try to sell it to some idiot. But you can't, you can inflate history. So there's,


there's a few historically significant projects like crypto punks. Don't tell that to Trump.


Yeah, there's, and there's, there's, there's a rare Pepe's, there's, there's spells of Genesis,


there's a few, there's a few other like more obscure, less well-known projects. And those things


hold up a position that can't be modified, you know. The other thing is if you have someone like a


well-known artist, do it or some kind of some kind of noteability that kind of raises it above


the rest of this, the rest of this stuff. And, you know, if it gets people's attentions,


like those board apes, like I looked at those things, and I'm like, I can see why people would think


this is cool. You know, I could understand it and see why people would bid those things up.


And, and I can see why they would do it as cyber punks. It wasn't for me, but I could,


the rare Pepe's has, is close to my heart because it was on counterparty. And it has,


has a lot of humor associated with it. There's a lot of memes and I just love the memes in it.


And it's just well done. So that was, but I can see why people invest in that stuff.


You know.


I got one last thought and then we can move on to the next question.


Yeah.


NFTs feel to me like 80s movies. All right. All of the, and all of the great movies are from the 80s.


Right. Back to the future, Ghostbusters, Predator, all those fun movies from the 80s.


Sequels, not so much. And it kind of feels like Hollywood is running out of ideas. So maybe


that won't happen with NFTs, but I think that they have quite a way to go as they do evolve.


And, you know, in this new use case is come out and they will be developed.


You know, I easily stocks any, anything. Right. I mean, we're talking about,


in its, in its final end state, if there is such a thing and if we're still alive or not,


when that happens, has the potential to disrupt entire industries. And that is going to


a lot of people off.


Well, yeah. As far as new NFTs goes, I mean, the human need for vanity and specialness is,


is infinite.


Well, yeah. And we have people keep finding ways to, to create value, to create value out of stuff.


It's, it's, it's, the way people will pay for them. And that's, that's how it is in the art market, too.


It's worth what people pay for it. And not everybody's always able to wait on the


to wealth and they need a way to basically shelter wealth and put it into kind of,


kind of, pockets somewhere. They bid up a certain painting by certain artists or a certain


amount. And that's, that's what it's worth to other people. So,


think it just keeps, it keeps moving and moving. I think we should, we should, we're right right now,


we should move into the last main question before we kind of close out with a couple random


AMA questions on the topic of QRL. And I think, I think you'll see this one up well with


creating a fully quantum resistant NFT. So first off, I think we should, you know, ask,


is it even possible? And if so, how, it would be, how would it even be executed?


Because I think obviously there's a lack going on with NFTs, but they're obviously not quantum


resistant in the current state. I think this would, this makes for an interesting question


and a topic to, to maybe cover for a few minutes. And while you're doing that, I'll jump into


discord and see if anyone has any questions they want to throw in. Yeah, I mean, I'll, I'll


preface my answer to this with the disclaimer that I'm not an expert in QRLs, you know, the,


technology like XMSs and things like that. Yeah, we're just talking about it of potentials of,


of where it might lead. It doesn't, there's nothing set stone or anything like that. Yeah,


yeah, I don't, I don't see why not. I mean, there's certain like, you know, there's, you, you,


you have to get a witness to the creation act and transfers and things like that from some kind of non,


non, you know, some kind of quantum resistant source. And just like we're doing with, with


enclave and the project is doing with enclave. So this is a similar thing. But like you see, it's like


it may not be to like, to, we talk about interoperability with Ethereum may not be to that


establish standard because of that additional, the additional steps that are necessary to kind of


get that quantum resistance. But yeah, absolutely. I mean, I mean, I mean, I'm sure you probably


have another following question also as far as echoes. I think, I don't have a specific one. I


think that the one part that I wanted to maybe briefly just cover on a little more, I think you


had a good point on maybe just the part about maybe the part about with, with the enclave tie-in of,


you know, NFTs, I don't see as far as getting it on to, you know, adding the functionality with,


with enclave. I'm trying to think here maybe the best way. I mean, the best, yeah, I think when,


when we were talking about this, the way I see it, yeah, I mean, after liquidity for QRLs,


the actual QRLs native token, if you wanted to go that route of NFTs, you can, I mean,


you can just expand the token, there's obviously a few ways to go about that. You expand the token


protocol within the native QRL chain, and you can have direct interoperability with,


with Ethereum, it's not going to like I said, it's probably not going to be to their 720 years,


so you're supposed to have 720 was standard, but you can have some kind of interoperability,


or the way that going back to counterparty, how, you know, the counterparty technology,


these tokens live on the Bitcoin blockchain, so they're not ERC-721 or close, but there's this


technology called, COVA, they're this thing called the emblem vault, which is basically kind of a,


an ERC, it's an Ethereum NFT, that's a, it's a wallet basically as an Ethereum NFT, and that wallet


can hold Bitcoin, it can hold different cryptocurrency, so there's multiple different cryptocurrency


wallets associated wrapped as an NFT. So what happened is that you take this counterparty rare


Pepe card asset, and you deposit it into your, this emblem vault that you created, so you


vaulted that asset, and then you list that vaulted asset on OpenC. So QRL could do a similar


process if you had a QRL NFT, and you, you vaulted that in list of an OpenC, you did just


the emblem vault technology, which is have to have QRL wallets and more than added to it.


Would you still be able to see the, well, the important parts of the NFT, for example, like the


metadata, right? The construct of the product is actually what makes up the value, I mean,


there's the picture, but yeah, what does that mean? Yeah, what does that mean?


The rarity, right? Everyone loves the rarity. You add that when you create the vault, you add the


description and you attach it, you associate a picture with it, but then what happens is that


when you deposit that asset to the wallet address that the vault generates for you,


and it's not stored on the server or anything, I think it's created on the client side.


And at that point, when someone views this asset on OpenC, they can click to the emblem finance


page, they can verify that that asset is indeed sitting in the vault, and then they can go to the,


i.e. the counterparty block explorer and look at that vault Bitcoin address and verify that


that kind of pretty asset is sitting there as well. So same kind of thing with, with Q or all or any


other code blockchain. Yeah. Now, thanks for covering that one. Michael, do we have any other ones?


I think we've kind of we've kind of covered quite a few questions in here. We're hitting it about 40


on the time right here. Is there any other ones that you have on your side that you'd like to cover?


I think that we've covered quite a bit.


We've got some questions because Tim G asks, can we have Robby mentioned a couple of practical


use cases for entities? So we covered, we covered what they are, I guess. Do you have any


prophecies as to far some use cases that haven't been explored yet or something novel that


well, I mean, we not thought of. Okay, when you talk about digital collectibles, I mean,


there's all sorts of things people have all sorts of things they've been for that. If you


if you take that actual term NFT non fungible token and take that literally, you can do all


sorts of stuff with that. So you could represent, and it's not like this hasn't been done before.


This is being done in some of the stuff of being done in 2013, 2014, you know, we were involved with.


You could represent actual physical assets with the digitalized token that was


like corresponding, some token corresponding to ownership of gold. So because that token is a


bearer instrument, this is something that legal system would have to be involved that you transfer


that token around and it essentially transfers ownership of the underlying physical


business. It's a financial body. Yeah, it's gold assets that are vaulted somewhere, things like that.


I think that stuff like that is going to grow, but there has to be a lot more confidence in the


underlying technology and the legal system has to catch up with it, you know, contractual law


as to what your house burns down and you lose the ledger and your passphrase.


Yeah, some of the things it's going to work for the future, like human human kind is not


more not there yet with this. Yeah, so there's things, you know, utilizing, you may not,


you may not represent ownership with these tokens, but you could represent


provenance, like you could represent the transfer, a historical record of transfer of ownership,


things like that. So it may not be a purely ownership thing, it could represent like historical


record of sorts. So I mean, those are, those are, those are two areas, I think beyond, beyond like


digital collectibles itself where you may see type tokens representing something, you know,


and back in the day we talked about tokens, what are called stable coins today, we called those


proxy tokens back years ago, those are term form. And these, you know, these are just tokens that


represent some other currency on a different blockchain with a different native currency. So


those are, those are being adopted now, obviously. And you're seeing starting to see a lot more


effort of blockchain interoperability. So just with tokens alone, there's all sorts of stuff you can do,


but I think, and it gets really interested when you have like programmable NFTs, you know,


you do all's random. I mean, we've only, we're only starting to scrape the surface with smart


contracts and what they can do. It'll get really amazing. There's going to be so many things that


like you just said earlier, like with your example, early in episode about what counterparty


of with our appages of where they took it, that's the beauty. We don't, we're going to find


yours from now, we're like, oh, how did I think of that? It's going to look, look obvious in a


hindsight, but there's so many examples, it's just the tip of the iceberg kind of like as you mentioned


there is. It is. What do you think about more of the layer two cross chain open interoperability of


blockchain is being able to speak together? I'm talking about like a Polkadot or like a Cardano.


Do you see, do you think that would be part of NFTs future in order, and if so, how trading


trading on those things or like, or like just existing and crossing across blockchain?


Well, yeah, for example, because right now, if you want to be easily listed on what is it open


see? Yeah, it's a real human in their area to it to eat, to eat, to be ethereum. Right now, what do


you think that ecosystem looks like in the future? Yeah, I mean, I can totally see that happening.


It's probably the biggest reason inspiring that will be just access to liquidity. There'll be


different liquidity pools on different blockchains and people can move those collect those


little crosses for access. Arbitrage trading. Yeah, arbitrage trading, different things,


you want a certain specific characteristic liquidity pool that exists over here on this blockchain,


you move your thing across. So I see those reasons. Another thing we explored, I was talking


with a friend about this a month or two ago. I think there was a project, it might have been


Richard Hart's hex or something like that, where he was basically duplicating the state of the


Ethereum blockchain. And we talked about, well, what happens to the NFT values and someone basically


copies a state at a certain kind of a certain block height. And they copy the state. What happens


to the values of those NFTs get inflated? Are there going to be a value associated with that


for that new chain or the fourth chain that copies a state? Are those NFTs going to have value?


And it's really, I mean, these things are are are there are femoral. I mean, they're not femoral,


but they're they're kind of their immaterial anyhow. So it really, I don't know, we don't know.


Link rot.


Link rot for like an NFT having the. Well, it's one thing. But as NFTs, I mean, you can


inflate NFTs by introducing new projects introducing new NFT tokens with existing projects.


Drivenives. Oh, from where you can, or you can report an entire chain that has an NFTs living on it.


But that chain would need to have some sort of novel value. That's a question. I mean, those NFTs


living on that new chain will probably be worthless or close to it. But the question is like,


who knows how this will actually play out over time stuff like that. There's just weird edge cases


like that where it's our interesting. And at the same time, the question for


duplicate NFT NFTs on, I'll just call them rogue change. Isn't any different on rogue chains?


Isn't any different than the underlying currency, you know, so it's not, I guess it's, I guess


that's also, you know, that's more of a, there's more even more of a blockchain question than


necessarily even in NFT question. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, this could, we covered a lot in


this episode, you know, just on the some of that core NFT stuff and just a couple of those questions.


But first off, Robby, appreciate you coming on to join us to channel a little bit and


an informal way about NFTs, how, you know, in the future, there might be a scenario of having a


quantum resistance NFT how that might be executed, obviously, still pretty early on with that part.


And thanks for just covering stuff based on a lot of your experience standing from, you know,


your earliest in crypto to counterparty to all the stuff that you've seen. Now you have a really


unique perspective and a lot of insight that a lot of people don't. So myself and Michael,


appreciate you joining us. It's always good to chat with you and learn more from each conversation.


So the great thing absolutely good to be here. I got out of my habit, however, once in a while,


I have two little kids. So it's good to get him, you know, be in an interview for a time. So


I did. Well, they didn't jump on your lap while we were talking. So I said they had to be quiet for


this, this period. So, you know, you have two well behaved children. Yeah, one story and one is one is


three months. I have a three year old and three month old. So they, yeah, yeah, you're a captain on that.


Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. Have a good one. Take care. Take care. Bye.


The Future of Post Quantum Cryptography with Geometry Labs

In today's episode, we have the team from geometry labs joining us to discuss what post quantum


cryptography in the future might look like, lattice cryptography, and research and development that


they're working on for both the QRL and in the crypto in DeFi space. Let's dive in and learn a


little bit in today's episodes.


Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the quantum resistant ledger channel, the place


where you come for the crypto and stay for the quantum. We have an exciting episode today and we


are going to be covering lattice cryptography. We're going to be discussing R&D being done in the


crypto in DeFi space and with us today are the guys from geometry labs. And also with me


for our show today is my co-host Michael Strike, our director of outreach at the QRL. And we are


also joined as I said, geometry labs by Mitchell, Craviets there, Brandon Goodell, and Adam Corbo.


Myself and Michael, we're excited to have this conversation to absorb a lot of stuff that you guys


are working on for those of you that are viewing this episode at home. Not only is there going to be


a bit of a, you know, a little smaller in curve, but we're just going to kind of be hearing on


what you guys have been working on up to date and then what's moving forward in the future. So


where I'd like to kind of start out this conversation is it's going to be a two-parter is


can you tell the audience briefly what a geometry labs is first off and then give us a little bit


of backstory on how you came to learn about the QRL. I think this is a good starting point for


that with a panel. Yeah, so geometry labs is a decentralized finance and cryptography research and


development lab. We're a team of engineers, scientists, mathematicians developing the next generation


of products and open source tools. We've got about a 10-person team. Fantastic team has contributed


to a very diverse set of like open source ecosystems. Obviously QRL, Zcash, Polkadot, Monero,


Icon, balanced harmony, Nervos, like we've got involvement in a lot of different projects.


We have like kind of three working groups. One of them is the cryptography working group focused on


post-clonum crypto, which is Adam Brandon and myself. Then we have some DeFi products we're working on


and then we have a very large infrastructure wing that does DevOps, full stack development,


lots of infrastructure, blockchain data handling, that kind of stuff. So we're really,


we're really just excited to get involved in all the different ways you can kind of like level


up the space. And the way that we got into QRL actually started back in last May 2020. We had been


getting geared up to do some Monero research. I was chatting in a Reddit comment thread and it said


I said like, oh blah blah we need a quantum resistant ledger but I had not heard of QRL and someone


was like oh did you mean QRL? And I was like oh what is that? And so I looked into it, got very


excited and Jack actually from QRL reached out to me one-on-one and it was like hey would you know


would you be interested in getting involved all of this? Absolutely of course. So you know hopped


on a phone call, chat with the foundation, learned about you know highest priority research needs


and got digging. And so now we've been working with QRL for I don't know about eight months.


I have been really enjoying it. Very truly exciting research. Thanks for kind of giving the back story


on that. And I think a starting question that would be nice to kind of lead into some more of the


meat and potatoes of what we're going to be discussing is can you give a general kind of


framework or at least lead us in this direction of what's the difference whether I'm someone


that's a bit newer to the crypto space or if someone that's been around the block for a while,


what's the difference between standard cryptography you know that you know Bitcoin uses, that the


majority of cryptocurrency is using versus the stuff that you guys are working on at Jamrifu Labs


because a lot of our viewers watching are you know to some extent some are probably quite familiar


with private and public key pairings, factorization with prime numbers just just different


extents. But I'd like to kind of show where a differentiates and then kind of you know get


them excited about where things are headed for post-Wannam-Kirk-Tabukbi. Sure I'll take this one because


that's this is what I've been focusing on. So Bitcoin uses elliptic curve signatures and


Shawtoo 56 hashes in order to construct the protocol among a variety of other tools right but


like those are the two big cryptographic pieces to the to the puzzle is a cryptographic hash function


Shawtoo 56 and elliptic curve this digital signature algorithms using I believe


Sekp 256k1 which is a particular elliptic curve it's like it's like a species name a Sekp


256k1. The problem is is that elliptic curve cryptography is vulnerable to quantum computers


as hopefully most of the listeners to this or most of the viewers will know. So for example if I


have a Bitcoin key I can and a really powerful quantum computer and I have a Bitcoin public key I


can go backwards and try to find the private key which basically makes the entire thing useless.


And so quantum computers aren't really commercially viable for those purposes yet so Bitcoin is


still secure and the parts of the Bitcoin protocol that are based on Shawtoo 56 hashes are also


thought to be secure against quantum attackers. But to have a system that has like this vulnerability


to it that has this like event horizon coming up in the future that is like some unspecified number


of months or years away where everything is just going to kind of fall apart it's just like having


all of Amazon using RSA keys it's just sort of like a nightmare waiting to happen.


And if you want to transition over to a post quantum system it's going to take a long time so you


can't start after the quantum computers that are right. So Bitcoin has these problems and so does


Monero for the record except for different hash functions. And I think the vast majority of crypto


coins have these problems. So the idea behind a post quantum cryptography is to base your


cryptography on a problem that is just fundamentally hard to solve. That there's no known algorithm


and that like if you were able to come up with an algorithm then you might be able to reduce your


algorithm to solve a famously hard problem that would like cause the whole hierarchy of what we


think is hard to collapse right. So it's like if you can break this then good for you you just


won the Nobel Prize because you just caused the biggest house of cards in mathematical history to


come falling down right. And in particular we've been focusing on lattice cryptography because lattice


cryptography okay personally it's because I have a soft spot in my heart. But the thing is QRL was based on


is based on the extended Merkel signature scheme. So it's it's hash based and it's one time signatures


but these signatures have a hard time aggregating together and they're big and the keys are big


and they're bulky and they're long they take a long time to verify. But with lattice cryptography


just like with bilinear parings and the elliptic curve world you have all of these tools sets


available for things like aggregating signatures so you can make things more efficient. And so


instead of having one-time signatures in like hash based setting you could have one-time signatures


in a lattice based setting everything collapses down to like one signature like memo wimble right.


It's basically make a post quantum version of memo wimble if you were able to like design a


protocol around it like that. So in a certain sense the main difference between classical cryptography


and post quantum cryptography is that we know that quantum computers can break classical problems


certain classical problems. And it'd be better to base our post quantum stuff on something that


can't be broken or at least we think if it was broken it would be a really really big deal.


And in the meantime we want to use some sort of like setting that is so flexible that you can


build a nice protocol around it using things like a memo wimble style aggregation so that signatures


collapse down into a single signature even across multiple blocks. So I hope that that answers


the broad overview question of the difference between pre-quantum and post quantum cryptocurrency tech.


Yeah thanks Brandon for covering that and where I kind of want to move into that of what you're


talking with lattice based cryptography. Michael do you want to dive into asking him a couple of


the questions that we had regarding how this would integrate into a QRL ecosystem you want to


want to go into that and then I feel like this would lead us nicely into that and proof of stake


consensus and no megal talk about atomic swaps a little bit. Yeah absolutely.


Can you hear me? Yeah okay. One thing one thing I think is a particular interest not just to myself


but likely to other people in the community and other people are watching this video would be


how the addressing scheme and how that functions differently in a lattice based


in a lattice based framework. So let's talk about if I may phrase the question this way let's


talk about Bitcoin for a moment. Bitcoin essentially you start off with a 256-bit random number.


How you get that number is dependent on the wallet or whether or not you're pulling temperature


variations out of the atmosphere you're just typing in and moving your mouse around it's 256 bits


of randomness or pseudo randomness at the worst. Those 256 bits are your private key of which then


you apply something called elliptical curve multiplication to which Brandon alluded to and then


you which is considered to be a classical one-way function a very hard problem to solve which


Brandon also said and then after so after you take those 256 random bits you apply elliptical


curve multiplication you end up at your public address. Now there's the public addresses in the


early days of Bitcoin you could actually set you you still can send directly to the public


address it's called paid a public key. Another thing with Brandon was alluding to was the integration


of shot 256 now this transaction can be run through a hash function after the public key and then


you arrive at what's called the Bitcoin address. So to summarize from private key to elliptical


curve multiplication to public key and then to shot 256 and then and then to Bitcoin address which


essentially with most water modern wallets is what gets written to the chain however obviously we've


if you've seen these other videos we know that there's the threat that in order to sign a


transaction with the node you have to present your public key as proof of ownership of that


transaction and while that while that transaction is essentially sitting in mempool even if the


transaction type is paid a public key hash that shot 256 who's to say you don't have a road


no it's like it's hey I'm not going to broadcast this transaction I'm just going to send it to


I'm just going to send it to the quantum computer over here instead so you're sitting over here


waiting you know this is a this is a a possible attack vector while you're waiting for the transaction


it's actually being processed by you know quantum computers so Brandon what it Brandon what I'd


like to know is from that process that I described on how Bitcoin works because that's what a lot


of people understand where are the deltas as far as how lattice cryptography fits into that is that


fair that's a great question so just like and as you described the secret keys are 200 or however


many bit bit strings right so that number 256 for Bitcoin comes from the security parameter that


was used to instantiate the scheme and the goal is if it's 256 bit secret key then that means that


you have 256 bits of security in your public keys right so in the lattice cryptosene crypto scheme


we have a similar sort of thing we have a short secret key that is only a few bits and then


you're going to have this public key that's going to be corresponding to that and that public key is


a lot larger in in lattice based cryptography but what's interesting about this is that


the lattice cryptography stuff is basically your high school linear algebra class on steroids


with a little bit of like geometry thrown in it's like a weird blend of algebraic geometry


and linear algebra and convex geometry and it's it's really kind of cool so here's the idea is that a


secret key is going you know what I have a whiteboard this is great whiteboard away yeah so if you


remember like high schools in your algebra you might be presented with a matrix problem


Ax equals B right now I'm going to put an underline under the things that we call vectors


and I'm going to leave the matrices as capital letters and we don't need to worry too much of


our notation pass that's physics classes put an arrow above the letter oftentimes right so look


like this but it doesn't really matter whichever one we stick with as long as we're consistent


so the idea is is that in a high school linear algebra class even high school you can learn how


to solve this problem using Gaussian elimination and elimination if you're given A and B you can solve


for X by just doing row like reduced row echelon form right it's like all of that basic high school


linear algebra stuff except you end up with an exact solution that doesn't have any constraints at


all on the coefficients inside of the specter so you might end up with a really really long vector


and the the lattice based problems that we're working with forgets about the B entirely


and just tries to find something that solves Ax equals zero except again Gaussian elimination makes


this easy so what we have to do is we have to put a constraint on this vector X so that it can't


get too long if you visualize it as like a multi dimensional vector from physics right we need


it to be not too long because I can solve this and get a vector pretty much any length right


but if I can solve this and guarantee that every entry is an element of the set negative 1, 0 and 1


that's magic like especially if A is a big random matrix of integers imagine like a 10,000 by 10,000


matrix of integers and I want to find Ax equals 0 but I'm only allowed to have bits like negative


1, 0 and 1 in there excuse me tricks I guess right that's a hard problem to solve because even


like the world's best computers right now would be chugging for years trying to solve this problem


right in fact the size of the matrix A ends up being the security parameter so going back to the


secret key a secret key in the lattice based scheme is this X okay actually it's not quite this


X it's a pair of X's X1 and X2 and the public key of these guys is a random matrix multiplied by them


so I go from my secret key to my public key by multiplying so instead of using elliptic curve


repeated multiplication or exponentiation is in Bitcoin all we do is matrix multiplication


which is really really great and I'll tell you why because all computer hardware is based on just


basically doing matrix multiplication over and over and over again so this process gets to be


super super super efficient even if the ending keys the public keys are big this whole process


gets to be very very efficient so including verification signatures and things like that so in


Bitcoin you have this short string which you interpret as an integer and then you exponentiate the


group base point to get your public key in our world we have this big public matrix which is sort


of like the base point and this is my private key and in order to solve for the public key I


just multiply those two guys now as far as designing a protocol with specific like addresses


that can be reused multiple times that's a complicated question that is significantly more in depth


than this for example in Bitcoin we we take the shot 256 hash twice we hash it twice


from the original public key if I recall correctly right and so the the ways that you would end up


using these things is like a more detailed question of how to construct wallets and transaction


protocols but this is the basic idea is the idea is that your secret keys are short vector


and by short I mean all of the entries are like bounded and your public key is the image of that


when you just multiply it by a matrix so what is the student of the transaction sizes is this


the what actually gets written to the chain right this is that this is because what I'm hearing is


this is a lot about efficiency right yes so the idea here is that the only thing that really


needs to be written to the chain for many many many many many transactions in a row is is just


the one signature and all the keys you're always going to have to have the keys on the blockchain


no matter what if you want to spend you need to have that key somewhere so that you can pull it


and verify it right every single node needs to be able to verify that the keys that were spent


in the transaction were legitimate so they need to know what those keys are even light nodes


but there's no reason to have multiple multiple signatures so if you design a signature scheme that's


based on linear algebra like this then you can do basic sums and linear combinations of keys


in order to compute a signature and because it's a linear algebra you can have certain


community relations so that you can do it one way first and then do it another way and get to


the same answer and this allows you to verify the public key verify the signatures but so


the short answer is is that all the signatures can be added up and checked all at once


for a lot like for many many many key to the row all the keys have to be published in the blockchain


but only one signature needs to be published in order to describe all the transactions inside


that actually leads me into my next question so you're talking about a signature aggregation


which is a function of taproot actually that bitcoin is going to move towards the end of the year


for signature aggregation once it gets once it's written to the chain if i'm not mistaken that


will make all transactions a single transaction or multiple transactions all look the same


in which could be which could be a private which could be interpreted as a possibly a privacy


feature is that would you agree with that assessment as far as not being able to tell what the


what the constituent parts of that you can of that sort of the chain yeah sure so just like how


member wimble has certain weak privacy claims about how if you're spending with it then things aggregate


down and you have some minimal masking of who spent what because you have big so first off this


scheme that we've been looking into is still one time a one time signature scheme and all those


one time keys are published to the blockchain and you have to be able to link that one time input key


with the output key in order to make sure that the balances the transactions balance


so there's there's quite limited privacy gained from aggregation but there's a great deal of


storage efficiency gain i can aggregate signatures logarithmic le so the signatures that are


aggregated take log and space instead of end times however many or how many how many bits the


signature requires right so it's not so much a privacy feature however in order to come up with


like a key exchange mechanism that works for this so that i can swap with you in a sort of a


diffe helman sort of style way so that you can get it one time key that i don't know even though


i'm sending to you that ended up being a fun little experiment with key exchange mechanisms and stuff


like that and what ended up happening is we started basically using a Monero style stealth address


approach but not for any stealth reasons it was just so that you can have one single wallet key


that can generate multiple one time keys without compromising its security and so we're using that


sort of feature from from Monero and as a consequence all of these one time verification keys


are basically stealth addresses so there is some stronger weak stronger but still weak privacy guarantees


compared to something like mimble wimble it's kind of it's kind of the soft gray area and like


the more you push at it the more it's not really clear what sort of privacy gains you might get


from mixing in small transactions in fact this is a problem with Monero but that's a whole


different podcast so i have one or yeah that sounds amazing i have one or two other questions


based on based on what you've said as you know the quantum resistant ledger is a stateful hash


based signature scheme the states need to be kept and needs to be stateful and immutable in


order that in order so that keys do not get reused because that would defeat the purpose of


the quantum resistance so as far as what is the equivalent of state based or statefulness within


this lattice based framework what is that what does that look like yeah that's a great question so


the statefulness so technically these signatures are state state free they're stateless which by


the way traveling through airports with like books that are talking about stateless combustible hash


functions not a fun time no so these are like stateless signatures and there's ways to


so normally a signature scheme let's say a k-time signature scheme would work like this you generate


k keys and then you keep lists a track of which signatures you've signed with those keys and then


you have to keep remember to not use those keys a second time right because if you do then you've


given away your private keys on accidents and anybody can manufacture any of these signatures as


many times as they like right so that's why we say that like a one-time signature scheme


don't publish more than one signature period so which if I may add curl just so our audience


knows the blockchain automatically rejects signatures that have already been used for that reason so


that is part of our current production network please continue yeah I don't want I don't mean to


like cause anybody to immediately like panic and let go sell their stuff this is just a just a


just a clarification yeah oftentimes I speak in some generalities about cryptographic design


specifically because I want to mention where the pitfalls are and the pain points are right


and so one of those pain points is is giving away your signature too many times right but


as curl as as Michael just explained curl prevents that so but my point is is that so for a k-time


signature scheme that's stateful you need to remember which signatures you've signed with which


keys so that you don't reuse them in this scheme we can extend it to a k-time signature scheme


if we like without state you just need to remember which keys you'd use you don't need to


remember which messages you've signed just as long as you don't reuse those keys right and so


it sort of reduces the state requirements which is great for local storage capacity on chain right


because if you don't need every node storing huge quantities of state then you don't need to worry


about it but again just like in curl you're still going to need to protect against people publishing


a signature for a second time the thing is from what I've looked at is that man this gets into


some technical details that I want to go I don't want to go into any any further. Yeah in


a second episode exactly so yeah yeah we can definitely hit this in the second episode.


I've got one other question then can you talk about the progress that's been made for proof of


stake consensus what type of proof of stake you mentioned polka dot I'm actually a big fan of


polka dot myself they use nominated proof of stake what's being put together how what does it


look like for the quantum resistive ledger? Well actually we're we're discussing that right now


but one thing that's really nice about aggregate signatures if they're done correctly


is there not necessarily one way and they're not necessarily random but they're unpredictable


because if a single honest person produces a single honest signature they think it's aggregated


with a bunch of dishonest signatures that one honest person has polluted all of the aggregation


method that of all of the malicious people with their honest input and then those malicious people


have a very difficult time guessing what the aggregate signature is going to end up being.


So if you want to have something that's not necessarily a random beacon but an unpredictable beacon


you can just use these aggregate signatures as they appear in blocks right you have one aggregate


signature per block and you maybe hash the last five or six of them together and since they're


all they're all aggregate if there was even one honest spender among all of them they won't be


able to predict the output and then you can use that information to generate your next set of


stakers because nobody was able to bias the input in a way that they could predict to gain the


system right so now but this is all very dependent on a specific signature scheme that you use


and so on and so forth but it's possible that as far as stake validator election systems go


aggregate signatures give that for free which would be fantastic but I'm still working on certain


analyses related to that so that's also another animal. So as far as the details of an actual


stake protocol maybe I should hand this off to Mitchell but because we were just about to talk


about this earlier today or yesterday and we ended up not connecting. Thanks for covering that


instead of going in I wanted to ask maybe a question or two about atomic swaps and how they be used


with QRL but I think we'll probably cover that in a part two video what I want to do for the last


question or two is we kind of wind down this specific episode is for those people viewing at home to


kind of get a general sense on what the relationship is between geometry labs and QRL and the


progress being made moving forward maybe this one's for Mitchell but what is the QRL and geometry


labs engagement look like as we move forward here just to give people viewing this a little bit of


a sense and then we can cover it a little bit more as we move into part two. Yeah so from a practical


perspective we're basically structured like an embedded research team with a specialization on


these particular aspects so like three of us are working on all these various different


lattice cryptography mechanisms that QRL can implement. We have biweekly meet like technical meetings


with you know Peter and Dengineers. Generally our focus out of engagements like this is we produce both


a theoretical paper explaining what we built and how we built it or you know how we secured it


parameter proofs all of that and then we also produce like small toy prototypes right so that


people can actually play with it for themselves and see how the signatures are generated you know


verified all of that. So this is like you know an experimental prototype but we'll make it publicly


available and we're actually going to do kind of a staged series of bounties where the first


approach is we want to put out a bounty on the math and the theory obviously we believe it to be


secure but the more eyes on it the better right so that would be like the first stage is applied to


the research in general. Potentially also a bounty on optimization where you know mathematicians


and researchers there are certain portions where I suspect like a low level engineer could


potentially get in and refactor a function to be way faster or something like that so optimization


bounties are also possible and then I think there'll be you know some kind of internal time where


QRL engineers are working on you know examining and refecting the code and all of that and so once


they start to move it towards production code then we could do like implementation boundaries


bounties but that's kind of looking ahead a little bit. That answers a pretty good I


appreciate you covering that Mitchell. As a last question before we kind of wrap this up is there


anything else that's being worked on in the background that you're able to share that might be


exciting for those viewing to maybe hear about. I know as Brandon alluded to obviously we could


probably go technical really deep down a rabbit hole in itself but is there anything on the surface


level that we that you guys can share from geometry lab side that could get people excited at home


as far as maybe what is to come. Adam do you want to talk about what you've been working on?


Yeah so I mean I've also been working on the lot of space cryptography and such but another


project that we've been kind of working on debating and looking through is so there's the onclave


software which is basically like a a gral a vault on the ethereum network for storing keys and


you know ethereum and stuff and it's based on you know a hash-based cryptography currently in


this current iteration and that you know it allows you to securely store ethereum and it's secure


against quantum computers so it's very future proof and so what we've been considering is basically


you know doing kind of the same thing and presenting it to QRL to be used in this similar way


except it uses a lot of space cryptography, met protocols that we've been researching for this


project and it's you know it's very it's way more efficient than hash-based clearly in a lot of


different ways and it allows for you know you do it based with same functionality there you can


add a lot more functionality with the lattice lattice-based stuff it's very modular it's something


I really like about lattice-based cryptography also multi-variant too this also has it's something


people haven't and they'll have to clarify a solidity stuff which is different from current


electric-risk stuff but anyways so we're working on basically processing switching into the lattice


and you know coding in the solidity or to get the other language but yeah and that can potentially


work as well so that's another exciting thing to look forward to as well.


In addition to what Adam has been working on with on-clod stuff we've been looking into the


possibility of using adapter signatures in order to take these aggregate signatures and turn them


into lightning channel creators so you can have a lightning channel network on top of the


quantum resistant ledger so that people don't have to settle on to chain until they have to


and that's that that way it's like an expensive settlement base layer and then most of the


transactions happen in a lightning style network and then in addition to that we're also looking


into like making recommendations to QRL to use certain code-based methods of compressing blockchain


data using secure fountain architectures so that even in the presence of malicious adversaries


even full nodes only need to store a fraction of the blockchain that they normally would


which is totally totally cool but these are these are sort of like still in production in the


closet and so we're trying to like we're trying to prioritize right now because there's so much


that can be done with lattice cryptography it is extremely flexible it's great.


So not to your to your point if if for slash when QRL ends up getting brought to scale and the


the state files start becoming larger and larger and larger you're saying that the ledger


and state files themselves could actually be decentralized as well as long as you had some


as long as you had met some sort of safety threshold as long as a number of nodes.


Yeah so basically like so the idea of striping a blockchain was something that we discussed in


Monero regularly of like oh what if a nodes will only store at one out of every eight blocks


but if you do that then you need to like contact eight times as many nodes in order to get


download the whole blockchain. Like grade zero. Yeah and so the question is how do you do this in


a way that doesn't require downloading enormous section like contacting an enormous number of


honest nodes and still be able to just have like a small local copy of stuff.


Pull what you need occasionally from the network if you are filling in holes and still be secure


against like one third dishonest or 50% dishonest I believe 50% was the assumption in the original


secure found architecture paper and it's all coding theory this is what blows my mind.


We're talking about you okay we're getting into this. So this chain of blocks have this hash


header which allows you to verify whether or not the stuff that you've gotten is like legitimate


from your nodes and so using that hash chain header and then just a basic coding theory like


trick of exoring blocks in in sets you can end up building a peeling decoder so that you can


pull blocks one of the time out of these like sections that have all just been exhorted down into


one animal. Sounds like you're describing a torrent store almost. It's super cool. Secure found


architectures are super cool and honestly there's no end their blockchain agnostic so like pretty


much every project could be doing this. Anyway it's cool. Yeah thanks for sharing that Brandon


and as we close up this episode as we mentioned earlier we're going to do a part two build on this


we're also going to be doing a Reddit AMA where we go through you can ask some more questions we


can dive into them further in the next episode and along with if you haven't already done so


subscribe to our YouTube show by hitting that bottom right button to make sure that you're up


to date with the latest episodes and as a last plug on today's episode where can people along with


learning about what geometry labs is working on where's a good spot for people to learn more about


what geometry labs is doing you guys have a you know a handle a medium post what's what's kind of


the starting point for those that are just maybe learning about what geometry labs is all about.


So we have a medium with a brief introductory article and I think it'll be publishing more as it comes


where actually in the context of QRL we have two articles that are coming out they've actually


been written and it's just on my desk to read them one of them is about the cryptography and kind


of just like what exactly how this latest you know signature scheme works all of that the other one


that will be putting together coordinating with Jack is an article specifically about


the implications for QRL and what we're building for QRL what kind of things that will unlock


atomic swaps that are there. Those should be coming out soon hopefully by time for the AMA


also for people that really want to get their hands on will shortly be releasing the code base


and extensive documentation so in a couple weeks anyone could just pick install the library and start


playing with it themselves. That sounds great and guys I appreciate your time Adam Brandon Mitchell


and Michael is always and for those of you viewing this at home make sure that you keep those


digital assets secure thank you for keeping in a nice viewership with us today as we learn about


geometry labs lattice cryptography and just all things post quantum and for you at home have a


great rest today and we'll see you in the next episode thank you. Thanks everyone.


What Exactly is the Quantum Threat to Bitcoin? Part 3- Quantum Resistant Ledger

For today's episode in our series on what exactly is the quantum threat to Bitcoin,


we're going to be covering what our project, the QRL is all about.


We're going to cover all that more in today's episode, so let's dive in.


Hey everyone and welcome back to this part three in our series on what exactly is the


quantum threat to Bitcoin. In this third video of the series, we're going to be covering our project,


QRL, the quantum resistant ledger, and cover how it all ties into the quantum threats.


In the past two videos in the series, we covered addressing and then we covered shores algorithm


and quantum computers. So in today's episode, we're going to be covering how our project ties into


all of them. So Michael Strike with on our team is with us, he's the director of outreach, and he's


going to dive into what our project is all about and how it ties directly to this quantum threat.


Michael, it's going to have you with me. Thanks. Okay, so I'm going to write into it.


So in the first first part, we covered Bitcoin digital signature algorithm,


right? How essentially it's Bitcoin transactions are signed, right? Then we covered factorization,


quantum computers, and shores algorithm. So we went from how the transactions work, the one way


function to how what quantum computers do essentially when we went, we sped right through it,


what shores is. Now let's talk about a sub what our project and what you're essentially what


you can do as far as a quantum computer insurance policy. So the major difference between Bitcoin and


the quantum resistant ledger is instead of using a elliptical curve digital signature algorithm,


like in the first episode, where the difficulty of the problem becomes not being able to reverse


factor those two large numbers. We don't use elliptical curve multiplication, like Bitcoin does when


it goes from the private to the public key. We use a hash based signature scheme, and a hash


base, a hash is essentially you give, we use a hash based signature scheme and essentially a


work-old tree. So if you're a picture a tree upside down, it creates essentially a hash based


signature pairs. And the reason for that we use hashes is because hash based signature schemes,


instead of elliptical curve multiplication, dignitures schemes, are pretty quantum resistant.


There's no such thing as 100% in anything with engineering, I don't think, but


hashes are being able to find that pre-image on a hash is extremely extremely difficult. There's


an algorithm called there's an algorithm, search based algorithm called Grovers that can do it on a


quantum computer, but just because it can do it doesn't mean it's efficiently do it with all the


A6 and the tech that we have today. It's likely in the portcibo future. It's going to be


simpler just to be able to process, just be able to try to reverse factor using traditional


computers. Right now there is no to be able to find a pre-image from a hash, which is what our


signature scheme is based on. There is no quantum or conventional known way in order to do this


efficiently. So we are, we've been running for three years. We have a lively Discord community.


If you want more information, we've got more information on this YouTube channel, jump in,


and that's it. So from Bitcoin signatures to quantum computer shores algorithm and to your


quantum computer solution, the QRL, that's in a nutshell. Awesome. Thank you, Michael. You covered


it well in terms of what our projects about and the kind of segueing from the addressing to


shores quantum computers in our project. And really, there is when it comes to the quantum threat,


it's really a deep rabbit hole. And just crypto and blockchain alone, there's just a plethora of


information out there. So our main mission here on this YouTube channel within our all-or-a-content


is to help give you a better understanding so you can make better informed decisions based on what


suits your desires and needs. And we just want to help you go down that rabbit hole in a way that


helps you digest that information more. So if you're watching this video now, you're curious on


what exactly is the quantum threats in Bitcoin. Because we're all, in a sense, probably holders of


various cryptos, both big and small. So what we're trying to do is just trying to give you better


information. And as Michael alluded to, we have a ton of other videos on our channel that cover


all sorts of things from, you know, is Bitcoin eponsie scheme to how to set up quantum resistance,


hardware wallets, to building a steam punk node, and all that in between. So if there's any other


topics, feel free to dive down our own rabbit hole. And as Michael also mentioned, feel free to


join our vibrant Discord community and other social platforms to stay informed and learn a little bit


more about our project. And from Michael and myself, we appreciate you watching this video series


and we look forward to providing you with valuable content moving forward. Have a great rest of the day.


See ya.


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

Welcome back everyone to the official quantum resist and ledger channel, your video portal


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

and the post quantum digital asset security.


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

So the first week of April 2020 has been a very exciting one with QRL 2.0 comes multi-signature


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

transactions, support for an ephemeral messaging system, multiple improvements across different


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

code suites and of course the new random X proof of work protocol.


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

We cover what random X was in a previous video so if you haven't seen it go ahead and jump


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

back and review that.


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

This video is going to be for Windows users that want to start mining quantum right away.


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

I'm going to walk you through step by step, a list of pools can be found on our website


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

at dub dub dub dub dot dot qRL dot org and lengthy intervals are annoying so let's get down


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

to it.


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

Alright let's do a step by step walk through of how to start mining.


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

Number one if you have any antivirus software you're going to want to go into it and make sure


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

that you'll be able to provide any whitelisting programs or traffic or network traffic.


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

In my case I've got Norton 360 here is one of my firewalls so we're going to go to


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

settings. First we'll move the antivirus and these are going to be different depending


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

on which manufacturer use for virus protection.


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

In this case scans and risks items to exclude from scans so I'm excluding this from active


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

scanning.


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

The other thing is I'm going to disable any of these advanced scanning features which


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

sometimes have a heuristic learning algorithms or other types of detection to figure out


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

if you know if your machine is infected so I've also included that here so that covers


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

the antivirus side of things.


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

You're also going to want to go if you have a firewall you're going to want to be a


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

whitelist any of the pools that you intend on mining too.


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

Alright so we're going here we're just going to generate a password because we're going


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

to create a new wallet and I will put all of these links in the YouTube description


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

video.


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

So let's go to QRL Wallet.


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

I'm going to take this password control C copy.


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

I'm going to generate a new wallet here, here.


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

Yes of course I will save the details on this page and this is going to be our public


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

address that we're going to use because we need something to mine to.


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

Next steps we're going to download XM rig 5.1.0 latest version it's a good miner I've


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

had good experience with it and we're just going to download the standard win 64 version


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

so let's download that and save it.


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

Okay well what in the world it came out as 0k.


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

Yeah it doesn't see right okay so what happened here is firefox did not like the program


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

so it automatically zeroed it out.


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

So let's switch over to trusted Google we can trust Google right.


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

All right here is XM rig on your under Google and we'll just download this should work.


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

It's dangerous so Chrome block okay that does not work at all.


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

I mean there's no way that Microsoft Edge would give us a better experience than firefox


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

and Chrome is there.


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

Let's find out.


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

Save the finished downloading we're going to extract this extract right here.


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

This is our rar labs one of my favorites.


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

Winrar.


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

Okay so here is the folder for XM rig we can see we just extracted it here it's right there


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

and all of the configuration is in this config.json file.


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

So what we're going to do is we are going to go to the QRL mining page.


QRL - How to Mine QRL Quanta - E06

It's right here we're going to take the public address that we created.