These "inventors" always figure out the hard way that manufacturing a product is at least as difficult as coming up with a viable product design.
Much, much more so. I have a bench full of new products people here will likely never see, due to this constraint. Knocking together a proof of concept rarely results in a product which people are willing to pay for, especially when mass production isn't viable.
The technology for making an excellent lightgun for any display, already exists. People just wouldn't want to pay for it.
I want to hear more about this existing technology. How much could this possibly cost? $500? People already pay nearly that much for AimTracks and then never use them.
In mass production, you'd be looking at around $250 to $300, which isn't reasonable for a mass market item. Niche market manufacturing would add quite a bit more to that figure. Even though the technology exists, it has yet to be used for this purpose, so it's not something you are likely to see.
There are also a lot of people in this hobby that clamor for products to be made and features to be included, while having no intention of buying it unless it's dirt cheap.
EDIT: Someone get on my idea about interweaving targeting reference frames on a high refresh rate monitor.
I have a CRT in my Mame cab and I for the life of me can't find a decent light gun for that... let alone one for a LCD.
The border is more visible in this one but does not take away from the game I dont think, Hell you are only really going to notice if you look for it 99% people prob wont even notice it.
This is my Kickstarter and I've been encouraged to join the discussion. I've been trying to avoid joining threads like this because it can be seen as self promotion and get the thread shut down. I've joined this thread, firstly because I was encouraged to by a member but also this is a very knowledgable thread with some obviously smart people contributing and this type of feedback is incredibly useful and appreciated. I'll focus on the technology discussion rather than trying to sell the product!
1) Accuracy: The accuracy is perfect, if you truly understand the concept then you should understand the accuracy is perfect.
2) Lag: In normal usage you don't need the crosshair (because it's super accurate without calibration). This removes 33%-50% of any lag seen because you don't need to wait for the display to update. I only show the crosshair on the videos for people to follow what is happening and show the accuracy of the gun. On my initial videos I didn't realise quite how laggy this looked. I had the windows mouse animation speed set at around 75%. Maxing this to 100% helped. You can see now on my virtua cop video how good performance is in a real game. The response time is less than 2 frames and would probably be less than 1 if a high speed camera was used which is obviously the plan in the future.
3) Original Vagueness: Yes this was a mistake, I thought the internet would enjoy debating how it worked but in fact it meant people said it was fake or too good to be true! I've obviously learnt from this so now have given more details and also try to show more the type of content people have suggested. The feedback from places like here has been incredibly useful and I have taken it on board.
4) General performance: The gun just works, it doesn't get confused, it's accurate and fast. I wouldn't put myself on the line trying to release a product that I didn't think was already awesome. If I got the opportunity to do a public demo that would really help, I'm not managed to get any media interest yet although I burnt the first week having to redo all my content so I need to focus on that now.
5) Cost of product / Kickstarter target: The device needs good quality components to work and therefore the margin on the gun is not huge. Therefore I need a high target to pay for all the bits that need paying for. Not sure what alternative I have, I've tried to be as honest as possible.
6) My hypothesis is that Lightgun games have disappeared because the current technology does not give the same user experience and therefore is not as fun. The key is missing the line of sight functionality (Wii) or having to calibrate (PS3 Move, Aimtrak etc) which seems to be widely accepted is not 100% effective. My innovation can bring back the ease of use (no calibration) and fun (line of sight) of the gameplay mechanism. A border (worst case) is a small sacrifice for this, in my opinion of course! This is why my grand plan is to bring back the Lightgun genre.
7) Distance to the TV: I've only just realised what a key feature this is in the last few days as I was unaware how big an issue this was on other technology. So ideally the Lightgun needs to see 2 widths of the tv, so if you aim to the far left of the tv in the centre of your video frame, the right hand side of the tv is still in the frame BUT if you are closer and you chop the edge off the edge of the tv you still see a rectangle with what is left. So you still know you are at the far side of the rectangle and therefore at the far left. In reality this slightly lowers the horizontal accuracy. However if this is key functionality the software can identify the width of the tv frame when you have the whole tv in the frame and therefore when it gets chopped off still base it's calculations off of the larger size and therefore give accuracy. This would enable you to use the gun much closer because you only need to get just over a televisions width in the frame. The sacrifice would be that it wouldn't work so well from angles at this distance but it doesn't sound like this would be a show stopper compared to the overall benefit. If it continually updated the tv width when it sees the full frame then if you move position it should still keep its accuracy. I would consider the accuracy as almost perfect (99%??) because there is guess work involved, rather than perfect when it sees the whole frame. With other products once you can't see see some of the raw LED input you are stuck as you can't infer.
CRT: It should work on CRT, I never really thought of the demand for this because I thought original lightguns would have this covered but I guess the PC solutions are not as perfect as the more advanced console lightguns. If the screen is a flat screen CRT it would definitely work. If it was a very curved old style one I guess it would come to how rectangular the image was. Probably be more restricted on your angle and you need to be head on. However the technology can be adapted to do something else such as putting markers in the corners instead of a rectangle. So yes the technology should work but unsure about my current software implementation. Any photos of people's CRT with a full screen game on would assist the discussion. Maybe warping the original border so that it is rectangular after it is output might do the trick.
Please ask any other questions you have and I'll do my best to answer, thank you all for taking the time to look at and feedback on my Lightgun technology.
If you could post my project on any forum or groups it would be massively appreciated. You don't have to instruct everyone to buy it but just raising it for interest and discussion like this thread would be great.
If your margin is low you will fail. You cannot manufacture and sell a niche product for low margin.
If the price is too high you will fail. Everyone says they want a product until it is time to pony up the dough.
If you take Titchgamer's money and run to Tahiti, I will hop on a plane and burn down your grass hut. I know how this Kickstarter thing works.
Thanks for joining the discussion. I have some questions/comments, but keep in mind that I own and shoot actual guns, am ex-military, have been playing lightgun games for as long as they have been a thing and own a dedicated 37" RGB CRT setup for Guncon games on PS2. My bar is admittedly high.
I understand that accuracy could be as perfect as the hardware and methodology allows, but the demonstrations of your device are weak in the "typical use scenario" department. Also, "perfect" as in perfect, or perfect in relation to a GunCon? Wiimote? ?? What is your reference for quality? Do you, or have you owned and used an actual good CRT-based lightgun? Do you know, and can you accurately express the limitations of your product against other products? I.e. typical marketing due diligence.
2) Lag: In normal usage you don't need the crosshair (because it's super accurate without calibration).
Small lag, while important, isn't a showstopper, as long as the gun reliably fires in the location at which it is being aimed. There are a lot of coarse human motor functions going on, which should give the hardware time to "get there" before the trigger is pulled. As for calibration, how would you be able to deal with varying resolutions and possible image cropping without calibration of some sort? I'm sure it's possible, but the question is specifically if you have taken this into consideration and accounted for it? I understand that the on-screen frame can mitigate this, but what about cases where it cannot be used?
3) Original Vagueness: Yes this was a mistake, I thought the internet would enjoy debating how it worked but in fact it meant people said it was fake or too good to be true!
This is to be expected with any new product. The difference is that you are soliciting funds for something which does not exist currently for sale. There can be no "early adopters" which can generate positive "word of mouth" about the product. At this point, it exists only as a prototype and a promise. Skepticism with such things is the order of the day. This means that you need to do all of the things a typical consumer might do with your product, and prove to investors (that is what they are) that what you are doing is real and effective in those cases.
It's a good sign that you have confidence in your invention. It's of paramount importance that this be the case. So my question to you is: if you are really confident in your claim that this device is a game changer (and it very well could be) why do you not believe in it strongly enough to finance it's development on your own? Have you sought any IP protection? Looked into a business loan? Approached any videogame peripheral companies? If I had a game-changing, mass-marketable technology which blows everything else "out of the water", crowd-funding wouldn't be my first move, at least before filing a provisional patent and exploring it's mass marketability through established players in those markets. Sans those actions, through KickStarter, you have given those same companies, with vastly more resources, a roadmap to to bring your product to market well before you can.
This is understandable. You need molds, and they alone have significant costs. On the flip side, it may be unreasonable to expect investors to bear the entire risk of the project, without a demonstration by you that you personally have something significant to lose if it fails. I don't know if it does, but if that figure includes a "paycheck" to you for the next year while you continue development, you might have a tough road ahead.
6) My hypothesis is that Lightgun games have disappeared because the current technology does not give the same user experience and therefore is not as fun. The key is missing the line of sight functionality (Wii) or having to calibrate (PS3 Move, Aimtrak etc) which seems to be widely accepted is not 100% effective.
Your hypothesis is not incorrect. If you need a cursor on the screen, it's not what it used to be. My concern with this statement is your comparison to PS3 Move, rather than the true lightgun solution that is the GunCon II. That is the bar against which you should be basing your performance comparisons, if your goal is to correct for the case in your hypothesis. I have no doubt that it won't stack up, as it really can't, given the difference in the technology. But "as good" under the conditions allowed by the different technology, would be an excellent start. I.e. your method makes it impossible to hold the gun 6" from the display, like the GunCon can, and track accurately, so that would be expected. But in cases where the methodology you use can track as well, it should.
7) Distance to the TV: However if this is key functionality the software can identify the width of the tv frame when you have the whole tv in the frame and therefore when it gets chopped off still base it's calculations off of the larger size and therefore give accuracy.
There's a bit of a fly in that ointment. If the user changes proximity to the display while the image is incomplete, the reference size changes as well. How much a step in either direction would affect accuracy is something you would need to test for.
CRT: It should work on CRT, I never really thought of the demand for this because I thought original lightguns would have this covered but I guess the PC solutions are not as perfect as the more advanced console lightguns.
It's not that console guns are necessarily more advanced, it's that higher frequency displays, multiple resolutions, etc, are harder to deal with with, and honestly, the market really isn't that large for CRT lightguns. You'll find much more interest here for a CRT solution than in the general gaming marketplace.
If nothing else, hopefully I have given you some food for thought. But if you are looking for that thing which would be the most effective in turning the tide in your direction, some raw, unedited footage of you "kicking ass" for several rounds in TimeCrisis, Point Blank, etc., without on-screen cursors, would be it. It would also be helpful if you honestly divulged the conditions and/or restrictions under which you operated to achieve this. Also note that "I suck at lightgun games" wouldn't be a valid excuse for not doing this. If this is the case, you probably wouldn't know what constitutes a good lightgun.
I would be careful about posting anything too specific about the technology behind this. This hobby has had upstarts rubbed out by existing vendors with more resources and name recognition.
Thank you taking the time to write such a large detailed post. I'm going to respond to all your questions which seem entirely reasonable.
1) Accuracy: Yes point noted I should be careful using the term perfect. What I meant is that all other LCD solutions infer the position so are having to guess and make approximations to predict the position. Because the Sinden Lightgun reads its position directly against the television display it is basing its position on factual data every single reading with no assumptions. This allows it to be as accurate as the hardware allows which I believe is already more accurate than you would realistically need in a game. My definition of perfect would be when you look down the barrel of the gun that the crosshair is exactly in line with that. In this context ignoring light bleed or any other issues I am unaware of I would consider a CRT lightgun of the later generation perfect.
2) Calibration: the gun currently works based on a rectangular outline, in general to start with if you can't add that it doesn't work. Of course given more time I can add more cleverness to the software/technology to work in alternative circumstances but for now I'm happy to accept this as a negative of my product. There are going to be very few circumstances you can't add a border to either an existing game or a brand new game. Resolution is irrelevant to the concept as is image cropping as long as you put the border around the correct play area it is fine.
4) I have already invested significant time and money into the project unfortunately I don't have the huge sums of money that I think the productionization needs. My belief was that Kickstarter was perfect for this. Every thread I read has people crying out for LCD Lightguns so I thought people would be happy to support the project. The whole point of Kickstarter is that it gives you the guaranteed sales in advance which makes a lot more sense than a bank loan.
5) The risk of delivering 2000+ electrical products would already be absorbed by myself. I would be liable for any shortfalls. Kickstarter has no responsibility but the project owner has full legal responsibility. There is no room in the budget for a pay cheque. If there is any cash left over, the commitment was to focus on getting software drivers written for other operating systems. I really don't think £250k will go as far as people think.
6) Yes, good point, if my goal is to bring back that experience people had on the CRT then that hardware should be the target. The distraction is that people immediately post these LCD products as delivering everything people want so the conversation immediately goes in that direction.
7) Yes but as soon as you capture a complete frame again then it should be back on target. Please remember that I outlined this on the fly as a way for the technology to resolve the issue. Not a tested and proven solution / commitment.
My project is specifically focused on LCD because I consider CRT Lightgun technology as fit for purpose. I don't really want to argue my case against a guncon because I think it does the job great, just not on an LCD. I want people to play Lightgun games in their living room and I think this could mean new games get made which is my ultimate goal.
In reference to Randy T's comments about accuracy, the old CRT Act Labs light guns claimed accuracy to within a few pixels. (granted, pixel density was lower back then)
I've heard the hit box on old arcade games was quite forgiving though, so it probably doesn't need to be that tight.
Unfortunately I rid my rented house of CRTs (and CRT guns), not wanting to deal with them the next time I moved.
Thank you for the warning this is obviously a concern, hence my original vagueness but I felt I wasn't going to get anywhere if people couldn't believe in the technology. Approaching 3rd parties instead felt just as risky. They would no doubt want all the code and algorithms and then I would be even more exposed.
At least this way I have published it to the world as my invention and no matter what happens that is something I am very proud of and no one can take that away :-)
This is super cool and exactly what I want people to be able to do but in their living room on their 50inch+ LCD television! Interestingly your CRT output looks pretty rectangular to the camera which assuming there is nothing special about it should mean the Sinden Lightgun would work on CRTs like this well.
Thanks for posting that. This accentuates one of my concerns. In my experience, your video shows a more natural gun handling and is in fairly sharp contrast to the way the gun in the Mr Lightgun's video is being used. If I used the gun in the same manner with my old TopGun setup, I don't know that the results would be different. This constraint was precisely why I retired the setup. It just wasn't fun having to be conscious of my position and movements, and in no way reflects how one would actually shoot a pistol.
Mr Lightgun, if this isn't a requirement for the accuracy of your setup, the way you are demonstrating it probably isn't going to do you any favors. The accuracy looks very good, so I hope you can show something a little more along the lines of Badmouth's video. I think he just gave you the bar you need to strive for.
A go pro mounted in line with the sights to show the bullets hitting where the sights are aimed would go a long way.
Aim-Traks get farther off toward the corners and edges, so make a point of showing lots of shots to those areas.
I think what they are getting at Mr Lightgun is could you do some test videos while you are moving around constantly.
However what I did was put different coloured tape on the front and rear sights so you can differentiate then on a black windows desktop aim the white mouse around the extremes of the screen while moving around left to right etc.
PC - Mame emulated. The last guns I am aware of where the Act Labs guns (Which have been discontinued). I assume this gun will be for emulation as well. All the fuss over LCD to me is crazy since there is no current option for CRT's.
The reason the Sinden Lightgun is being held like that is because I am using the button on the left hand side to reload.
This is pretty neat. I had a similar idea a couple months ago, but I have enough projects on my plate and knew I wouldn't have time to implement it any time soon. Here's the rundown on my version of the same idea:
Instead of using a camera, it uses one IR LED at each corner of the monitor and the PixArt sensor harvested from a Wiimote. The PixArt sensor can track up to 4 points at a resolution of 1024x768 (inferred from 128x96 subpixels as the sensor moves) at a rate up to 100hz. The sensor very conveniently outputs the coordinates of the four points in a way that can be easily read by an Arduino.
After this, the concept I assume is exactly the same. A four sided polygon is made of the four points and then a calculation is performed to determine where the gun is pointed based on the deviations of the points from the center of the sensor.
I found a 1995 paper that has already solved the math problem of converting a 2D image of a rectangle and determining the 3D position of the camera here:
My plan was to find the 3D position of the camera, then simply calculate rotating the camera back to front facing the rectangle and then seeing where the point it was aimed on the rectangle.
After this, maybe if the distance of the gun was a problem (the gun would have to see all four points to work), I was thinking a lens could be placed on the gun to allow you to stand closer to the screen. The lens distortion could be removed using another algorithm, like this:
A gun made like this would only have to be calibrated once: to compensate for the offset of the IR LEDs from the corners of the screen. After that, it wouldn't matter if you were close or far from the screen, standing much higher or lower from where the gun was originally calibrated, etc.
This particular shooting game, requires FAR more precision than a Cookie Cutter, pay to continue, quarter-muncher... like HOTD.
In fact... out of all the Lightgun games Ive played... from Arcade to Console, this is pretty much my go-to.
You could say that its similar to Namco's Point Blank series... But PB came out much later, and was probably modeled after
SG. The thing is... while SG has its limits... its still a more fun and challenging game, than any/all of the PB games.
It has a better difficulty ramp, and better game balance overall. Many of PB levels are too quick... and the difficulty is all over
the map. Also.. PB's system has too much Down-Time pausing, between rounds. Where as with SG... you have enough time
I believe I heard there is 24 levels to SG... but I never was able to defeat it. I cant recall, but I know I got past the
TVs, and I believe it was the 2nd or 3rd iteration of the Spaceships... which, if you missing their shield drop, it was
The game has some patterns... but similar to Capcom's Ghouls and Ghosts... there are often a few different variances to these
patterns, per each level. There are also things like Balloons... that if you miss dead-center.. the balloon will sway away from
your shot... as if the wind force pushed it. That makes it even worse than missing a typical target... because you then have to
Even if you post a decent attempt on this game, I think it will still be a more impressive display of the true abilities of
Yeah, I agree. That game always stood out in my mind as very good light gun game. Give that one a shot in your next video.
not to hijack this thread but what emu are you using for master system lightgun games? i can’t for the life of me get a lightgun to work in mega fusion.
back to thread, i think the kickstarter goal is way to high. i hope it gets funded but all or nothing for 250k seems unattainable. but i will back...
The Aimtrak can do that, but using 4 points requires a wide-angle lens. The current Aimtrak design uses light point size information as well as location, which the Wii does not, so it performs to a "no crosshair" accuracy without 4 points.
I do have a version of the Aimtrak which has been supplied to a couple of designers of large-scale gaming installations and it uses 4 points and maths which was provided by a university maths department in the UK. This version is used when players are running around a room. Its available as a full design package with licensing.
I have also played with image recognition using the Pixy CMUcam5 sensor. But the downsides of this I found were as follows:
Not able to do all processing in-gun. One of the design points about the Aimtrak was to have it appear as a standard USB mouse and it sends fully corrected X-Y data such that no software needs to be running on the host and not needed for any function such as calibration.
Of course thats not to say that these issues cant be solved but I believe an IR system is hard to beat especially in a situation where some installation (ie fitting an IR bar or LEDs) is acceptable, which is the case in most arcade gaming situations.
I will state at this point that I have no plans to pursue image recognition technology any further than I have already done. The Aimtrak will continue to use IR technology until such time, if any, it becomes end of life.
the topgun (1) : i do not exactly know how many ir led dots it uses for tracking. probably 5? most likely 4. Both bars have 3 "slots" where leds can be housed. one left, one in the middle, one right. Bar one has one left and one in the middle, and bar 2 has one left and one right. The topgun also uses a pixart sensor (or something pretty similar to a pixart sensor) which can most likely track 4 ir points. It also has a PnP solver (probably in the driver), which makes the gun hardware pretty cheap (a usb chip, some quartz for the sensor, the sensor... & everything needed to transfer the raw sensor data (most likely the 8 byte position values of the 4 strongest dots) to the computer).
The topgun has pretty damn good accuracy, BUT ONLY if you understand how to calibrate it. People calibrate it with the laserpointer and afterwards complain that the cursor is off. pfff.
One thing i hate about these topguns is, however, that the viewing angle of the sensor is so small, you can `t go near the screen without loosing tracking. You can place a wide angle lens infront of the gun, which slightly reduces accuracy; but can reduce the distance from the screen significantly.
They were only accurate if you stayed fixed in exactly the same spot if you moved any direction they went out of calibration.
As for the laser that was a stupid idea from the get go! The damn thing would just reflect back in your eyes!
No, i cannot agree with you on this. They stay pretty damn accurate even if you move around in the room; given you did everything correctly. (which there is no manual for) the lights of the sensor bars have to be in the exact same plane as the screen is.
While calibrating, you have to be VERY accurate. My topgun 2`s (i have 2 of them) are both accurate up to the tracking resolution (about 4 mm on an 21" 16:9 monitor). After i calibrated the gun correctly (took some tries) i tried EVERYTHING. i moved around the room, tried extreme angles, Turned the gun upside down... and i couldn`t get the accuracy to worse than at most 10mm off.