Year: 1875

not done $3.50 on excavations A. Yes, sir.


y And without any fact to Justify ny A Yes, Tr


u You know the errors, amounting In the aggregate
TO cash sum Of S. 0S4 ~ included in your esti-
mates during tho time you went there for work done
and material frnshed2 A. During my estimate; yes Sir


TESTIMONY or II. SEYMOUR, JR, CONTINUED


A. The first instructions received in regard TO tho
work were from Mr. Babcock, Resident Engineer he
instructed me that base line should be run, and that
iron spes had better be driven into the ground IN
order that Its location might be retained.


q Can you fix the date Of those instructions
A. That was, l think, tho day before the wall was
torn down the next Instructions given me during
the month Of December; Mr. Babcock and Mr. Yates
10 Utica their way along tho line Of the canal
l was absent In Albany; they gave mo orders
10 use slate for lining and to live up specncatons
this was reported To me by some Of the men in my
office, with whom thcy cft word would like to ask
question; that Is whether, with regard 10 these nstruc
tons, givo what said 10 me by the Deputy Attor
ncy General and by the Auditor regard 10 this work.
OF whether confno myself TO tho instructions given
by those engineers?


My impression is that II You received ANYTHING like
pertinent advice IN reference 10 tho discharge OF
duties from the Attorney General, IL is pertinent TO
this investigation, and equally as TO the Auditor.


Mr., Seymour-It would give clearer idea of the his
tory OF this case If did so the first time that
TO Albany, at the time when MT Yates and MT Bah.
cock were in Utica came down for the purpose of
tanning what was proper for 10 do in regard TO tho
uso OF slate for lining also TO the classification Of tho
sate rock formation in the canal and which being
excavacd at the me tho Deputy Attorney General and
Auditor advised me that they knew of law which
gave authority 10 the engineer a price
Tor material which was not bid for and not named in
the contract; after had finished the estimate for tho
month OF December the Same question with regard TO
the rock rose again. and, there price in tho
contract for rock which could be cxcavatcd without
blasting, considered the excavation of that material
should come under tho head Of extra work. and you will
notice in the estimate book that put that down under
the head Of extra work; it has since been erased.
@ That you have entered there as extra workP A.
Yes sir.


O. And you say it has been erased A. Yes, sir
q. by whomY A. BY my orders when | came to
Albany went Immediately TO the Attorney General
and the Auditor and they again said that they knew of
no law by which the Resident Engineer was authorized
TO fix the price OF extra work; they advised then
not to swear to any estimate until the Resident En-
ginecr could show me any authority for naming the
price; l went to the Office Of the Resident
Engineer, Mr.. Babcock, and asked him 10 show
his authority for fixing price for extra work; ho
showed me clause in blank form OF contract Of a
later date than that of Henry d. Denisons in which
tho Resident Engineer authorized fix the price
Of extra work Mr. Babcock then ordered put the
price OF this loose rock at 81 per yard and to combine
the two items Of rock in the estimate under head
and classify them rock.


q. Ono of which was rock, estimating both extra
work A. Yes sir and one being the amount of rock
excavated previously my coming the ground about
which knew nothing, and that there some Ok
which had cxcavated myself on this contract
vated under my orders these two he ordered me to
combine under ono head and erase the word ''loose ~
and classify it all as rock at 81 yard.


Q. What, In your opinion, fair price to allow
the contractor for this excavation of loose rock A.
Fifty cents yard.


O. Why do you say fifty cents yard instead of Al a
yard, which was the contract price for removing the
rock? A Ono dollar yard the contract price for
removing rock in which it necessary to powder





bars


Q Could it bc removed with great eases A With
considerable ease


@. Could it be removed about as fast as claw A. I
should consider II could be removed with about tho
same facility hardpan, which is sort Of cementcd
gravel-gravel and clay cementcd together.


took a very competent engineer, f. D. Smaey and
carefully went the work and measured it, and IL
made difference of $500 in favor Of the contractor
which, as no had worked since tho first measurements
wcrc taken and 1t wns impossible to separate tho
work, was small difference. discovered during this
Q fonto Il.
contractor had been credited, tho ground;
this lcsscned the $500 to $50. made the fact known
to the contractor as soon as possible but hc still
dissatisfied.


received letter January 25 introducing Mr. Scott
II was rs follows-


DEAR srR-Ths to You Mr. William s.
Scott Assistant Engineer He goes to Office


The contractors Messrs Beldcn arc still dissa


viewed by an engineer who has not been employed by the
to send np ASSISTANT Engineers on Ss
who has had large experience In Of work to
sections only might used to the dis
f be al SS an
oy the work with lie viii cSp to
you the details Of the work method Of estimating SLOPE &c
gethcr of measurements will agree
with your former BABSR sE y esdsn. Engineer


O. Tho Mr. Scott referred to the Mr. Scott who was
assistant engineer on the between Port SCHUYLER
and the Lower Mohawk Aqueduct under Mr.. Babcock
A. Ancrward, understand, the young gentleman in
the other room had charge Of that work.


O. What experience had he had then as engineer
do you knowS A. He informed me that he had never
been employed upon the canals previous to the time ho
came to Utica.


O. To what experience then did Mr. Babcock refer
when he spoke of his experience cngnecrp A.
He had had some experience on the New York Central
road, where he assisted, believe, the Division Engi-
neer Yates.


O. You was also employed on that road at that tImc
A. Yes, sir.


O. Mr. Scott appeared did he with that notcp A.
Yes sir; he brought this letter.


O. What did he do propose TO do A. With Mr.
Scott and my party then crosssectioned the work
accurately as VISA able to do with four feet of
in the canal and foot OF ice and water; was
confident that this estimate was an overcstmate and
that II was impossible to come any knowledge
ofhe true amount Of material removed by the contractors
until the snow and ice and water out Of the canal
therefore, in making my affidavit to the estimate
changed the form and stated the true condition the
time that the measurements were made, which affidavit
| will read


State Of New Tork, Cony Of onsfdo .-IIoratio Escymour
J Assistant Engineer being duly deposcs and says
the work embraced in the foregoing estimates for removing
wall benches the Erie Canal from the junction Of the
nnd for constructing vertical wall along bank o
sf B. BENSON sns c%y sS snS ,Sc
the quantities therein stated do not exceed hc
and computations to the ls day Of February 1875
of four fec: impossible TO get AZ the foundations
as there was foo. Office and the canal said





soutey correct nearly the circumstances would
permit. HORATIO SEYMOUR, Jr
Sworn to before me this 4th day of February 1875
oRviLLE 7. ALLEN, Notary Public Utica Oneida county
n. Y. ~
O. What did Mr. Scot do or propose TO do when no
came upP A. Mr Scott advised mo that want to bc
very careful about this which is the hesitate
because think there may be some possible mistake in
my rccollccting the convcrsation-as as | can
rccocc he stated 10 me that Mr. Babcock advised that
measure this excavation the slope of one to one
back OF the vertical wall and that measure cmbank
mcnt in some places and If the contractor didn't take
nut m rfnl hnHE Of fhn gal and
put up his wall with the earth standing perpcn-
dcuar-


O. That is with vertical cut1 A. With n vertical
cutAthat then he to be paid foe both excavation
and cmbankmcnt if he not forced TO take out tho
earth 1t his good luck


q That you considered an answer to your lcttcrH A.
Yes, sir.


O. The one you wrotcS A. On tho eighth page of tho
lettcrprcss
q Anything clse-nny other lessons in the science
and art OF measuring work the canal professed at
Albany A. Nothing else that rccollcct.


q Did you follow Mr. Scott's instructions in regard
to measuring excavation and embank kmcnt lrstt A. No
sir.