Year: 1869

the direction OF the Speakers The gentleman
from ONO has for half an hour insisted tnat
uon was In session IN this hall yesterday twas
House Of Repressn,ailyes there was WAS a. sPeasses Psser
shall sit ut the place OF authority.


Mr.. BUTLER, OF Mass. rose In his place.


Mr.. CoLFAx-i do not yield to the gentleman rom
Massachusetts, have my colfoquy with the gentle
man from Ohio


Mr.. BurIER-I did not ask yoy. sir.


Mr.. COLFAx-The Speaker Ia to sit by the side or
the presiding oicer IN joint convention; bEt ne is
less the speaker Of the House OF Representatives
at the time He is charged with the maintenance
OF order. When tine House Ia In session this rule IL
mandatory. II there was nolHouse OF Representa-
tives here yesterday then the Speaker exceeded his
here yesterday, then he performed his duty in en-
deav0rfng to command the order that had been dis


regarded ~ the refusal @ 70 obey the order Of hin him wo
sttutcD states distinctly, IN article Twelve, that the
President OF the Senate SHALL in the presence Of
seHtatiyes, open the certificates. There must
be House Of Representatives there; there
was Speaker there: there was Sergeant-at- Arms
there. They were not ciphers. They had duties de-
volving upon them. Let me ask further II disorder
exists IN the joint convention who Is to perform the
duty OF restoring orderf II the President OF the
Senate had ordered the Sergeantat-Arms OF the SEN
of the House OF Representatives the excitement
would have been red0ubled. 1t would have been
A. Arms to enforce order upon the members Of the
House OF Representatives IN their own hall. But
under the twenty rule there was an officer to
enforce order and he shrnks not from the perform
OF his duty and for that he Is subject as for all
his official acts, to the censure OF this House.


posing the censure OF the Speaker. think he was
excited, like the rest OF US.


Mr.. CoLFAx-He was not.


Mr.. SCnENCK-There Is only difference of opinion
about that i thought might be acquitted OF any
intentions to arraign or mpugn the motives OF the
feelings and no such purpose; that have too much
respect and too much regard for him TO think Oh it,
myself it is OF his seeking, and not mime. l
simply, as a question OF law, say that when the
House OF Representatives is here in joint meeting
with the Senate, 1t Is provided that the Senate shall
preside the joint meetings, and 1t IS, therefore,
not the Senate as such that Is here and not the
House OF Representatives as such that Is here but
body composed conjointly of those two branches;
and that when the Speaker, out Of proper respect is
assigned place alongside q the President o. the
as the tellers are told where they are to take their
to IS the i the
OF the surroundings, but as regards the legal right


aae to xssR ord ndSS nD5
with one head; that head, for the time, being the
President OF the Senate. Now quote toe Speakers
decision yesterday on the point OF order by Mr.
Thomas. The Speaker says:-'A reply to that ques.
tion would involve discussion Of questions properly
Houses, over which the Speaker OF this House has
no power" That Is the latest Interpretation that
have upon the law Of the subject i was was given to
siding oficer or the joint Convention was the man
to. do IT, i allude to this, not for the purpose
showing what general confusion prevailed here, and
that while we were IN JOINT convention more than
being that were not In the more excitable House
Of representatives, and the Speaker shared in that


Mr.. CoLFAx-Tne gentleman from Ohio quotes
what the Speaker ruled In the House OF Representa-
tives-that he could not review the rulings Of the
President Of the Senate while presiding in the JOINT
convention. The Speaker adheres to that ruling to-
day. There Is, however, some difference apparent
between the gentleman from Ohio and myself as to
in the twenty second rule which will again read
ut shall be the duty Of the SergeantatArms to at
tend the House during its sitting" The question is
whether under the constitution the House was here
yesterday. l insist that the House was here. In
commands that the House Of Representative and


the Senate shall be In session on the second Wednes
aay In ssu Il provides also tina, the Is
to aid In the enforcement order under the direc-
ton OF the Speaker. He could not do it under
rule wonid not allow him to do so. He wond
forfeit his office he 0beyed the order OF the Pres


en q a s y io ns e e shall ma DC
else. Again, ask the gentlemanj from 0hio-for
do not want him to escape this point by any legal
Would he have asked the President OF the Senate to
command the Sergeant-at-Arms Of the Senate to
Could the President OF the senate have commanded


the sergeantratArms OF the House to arrest Repre-
The Sergeant eat xrmsS would 'I not OF have obeyed
anybody but the Speaker In the maintenance OF
order The House OF Representatives was here the
Speaker was here, the Sergeantat-Arms was here;
he was here fer the maintenance OF order. Who was
10 preserve order In the galleries II they to
break out in excitement as In the French revOlu-
tionary times. by mingling in the excitement below,
except those who have control OF the officers
charged wa the tSs Il. order
troll Of the SergeantatArms OF the Senate
for the maintenance OF order among Senators, but
Representative to take his seat the member would
have refused to obey, for the Sergeantat Arms had
sO V e sHs 81 any ne 70 but % 1s
he supposed his duty required him to make this
order and maintain the decorum and quiet which
should prevail.


occurred, for II does not a1ect the weight OF my
gument MY view was to illustrate what condition
doing it. hold that Joint convention OF the two
houses is not body with two heads; hold that 1t
ls not two bodies; hold that u is one body COM
posed oil the Senate ana OF the House, coming to-
gether ~ Joint meeting having one head to preside,
and, II necessary, 10 keep order, as Il Is the
that that head is the President OF the
senate. ! hold that to aid the presid-
ing ofiicer in Keeping order. as well as for the
purpose OF giving character to the occasion, IL was
intended that all the officers OF both Houses should
be present TO assist him. II am right In that, the
either the sergeant-at-Arms OF the Senate, or the
sergeant-at-Arms OF the House. IL was as much his
right, as 10 speak 10 the two teilers appointed
on the part OF. the House and give them
instructions, az 1t was TO speak TO and in
struct the teller appointed on the part
OF the Senate 1t was as much his business to give
instruction TO the Clerk OF the House as TO the Sec
retary OF the Senae and the presiding ofcer of the
whole body thus made up mad power not only to pre-
SIDE over the body, but TO direct what was TO be
done. ] am sorry, repeat, that this attempt OF
sniDe to illustrate In what condition found our
selves here, should have led to this passage be-
tween the Speaker and myself. | do not think he
intends II IN any offensive way towards me- ana 4
am certain did not so intend Il towards him.


Mr.. GARFIELD next obtained the moor, and ad.
dressed the House. saying that he did so as the
immediate representative OF the principal parsonage
affected by the proceedings meaning Senator Wade)
III discussed the question at considerable length as
covered by The constitution, the laws and the rules,
and then sald:-We have heard II said that turbu-
lent scene was enacted yesterdays shameful scene
l admit II, and deplorc II. Who was II, ask.
and appeal to the memory and conscience OF
every member OF the House. made the turbuenceg
Was II not caused by the theatrical attitude OF fe-
rocty which was exhibited on the part OF members
Ill lLAlaAa Llz 44zxlI liz Ill