language scaling or the uh the model scaling or acoustic scaling but you know that those things have kind of a similar effect to the insertion penalty anyway a slightly different way of Right handling it So um So if we know what the insertion penalty is then we can get an idea about what range our number should be in so that they think so Yeah match with that Yeah So why I think another reason other than curiosity as to why i it would in fact be kinda neat to find out if way off I mean the other thing is are aren't we seeing Y y sure already looked at this bu in these noisy cases are We are seeing lots of insertions Right The insertion number is quite high I Yeah the VAD Yeah takes pre care of part of that but seen Yeah with the mel cepstrum I don't I don't know about the Aurora but I think much more balanced with uh when the is more robust Yeah I could look at it at this Yeah Yeah Wha a typical number I don't I Oh know don't know OK don't have this in sure more balanced but it it it wouldn't surprise me if still I mean in in the the the old systems we used to do I I uh I remember numbers kind of like insertions being half the number of deletions as being and both numbers being tend to be on the small side comparing to to uh substitutions Well this the whole problem with insertions was what I think um we talked about when the guy from OGI came down that one time and and that was when people were saying well we should have a uh uh voice activity detector Right that because all that stuff that getting thr the silence getting through is causing insertions So Right Mmm bet you still a lot of insertions Yeah And it may be less of a critical thing I mean the fact that some get by may be less of a critical thing if you uh get things in the right range So I mean the insertions is is a symptom a symptom Right that something uh wrong with the range But uh your your your substitutions tend to go up as well So uh I I I think that uh the most obvious thing is just the insertions But Uh um If operating in the wrong range I mean why just in general if you change what these these penalties and scaling factors are you reach some point a a minimum So Um Um We do have to do well over a range of different conditions some of which are noisier than others Um But um I think we may get a better handle on that if we if we see Um I mean we ca if we actually could pick a a a more stable value for the range of these features it um uh could Uh Even though true that in a real situation you can in fact adjust the these these scaling factors in the and ar artificial here that not adjusting those you certainly don't wanna be adjusting those all the time Hmm in roughly the right range I remember after we got our stuff more or less together in the previous systems we built that we tended to set those scaling factors at kind of a standard level and we would rarely adjust them again even though you could get a for an evaluation you can get an extra point or something if you tweaked it a little bit But once we knew what rou roughly the right operating range was it was pretty stable and Uh we might just not even be in the right operating range So would the Uh would a good idea be to try to map it into the same range that you get in the case So if we computed what the range was in and then when we get our noisy conditions out we try to make it have the same range don't as change it for different conditions No No I I I What what saying Oh I wasn't suggesting change it for different conditions I was just saying that when we pick a range we we wanna pick a range that we map our numbers into we should probably pick it based on the range that we get in the case Otherwise I mean what range are we gonna choose to to map everything into Well It depends how much we wanna do gamesmanship and how much we wanna do I mean i if he it to me actually even if you wanna be play on the gamesmanship side it can be kinda tricky So I mean what you would do is set the set the scaling factors uh so that you got the best number for this point four five times the you know and so on But they might change that those weightings Yeah Um So Uh I just sorta think we need to explore the space Just take a look at it a little bit OK we we we may just find that that way off Maybe not You know As for these other things it may turn out that uh kind of reasonable But then I mean Andreas gave a very reasonable response and probably not gonna be the only one gonna say this in the future of you know people people within this community who are doing this evaluation are accepting uh more or less that these are the rules Yeah But people outside of it who look in at the broader picture are certainly gonna say Well wait a minute doing all this standing on your head uh on the when all you could do is just adjust this in the with one s one knob And so we have to at least I think determine that not true which would be OK or determine that it is true in which case we want to adjust that and then continue with with what doing Right And as you say as you point out finding ways to then compensate for that in the also then becomes a priority for this particular test and saying you don't have to do that So OK So uh new with you Uh So nothing new Uh Um old with you developed sorry You OK old with you that has developed over the last week or two Mmm Well so been mainly working on the report and and Yeah Mainly working on what On the report Oh of the work that was already done Um How about that all Any anything new on the thing that uh you were working on with the uh I don't have results No yet results Yeah What was that The the uh Voicing thing voicing detector I mean what going on now What are you doing