That's all very fair. I think we've pinned down adequately where our differences lie.

I spoke about property intending to mean the notion of property, not the physical things that we call property, to clarify. In fact, I see entirely in the word property the notion of ownership, and likewise I only see the word property meaningful in the context of the notion of ownership. Without this, things are just things doing their thing.

So, I take it to be true that property is, not being an intrinsic attribute of things, to be a human system: A system of relationships between human beings. I believe it is possible to consider human relationships without morality coming into account, morality being a complex interaction between the nature of the world and the way humans act in it. I am being very wishy-washy, so I'll drop the point. I think it would be hard for me to clarify what I mean.

So, that leaves us with the notion of natural rights. I have to acknowledge that it is a useful notion. Liberalism has been a powerful force in the world for centuries and it rests on the idea of natural rights. That cannot be denied.

However, that is merely the idea of natural rights. I cannot take that as basic. What I take as truly fundamental is an almost tautological statement: What is fundamental is the way things go. When you go against the fundamentals, you get problems, resistance. Sometimes you can brute your way through it, but you always leave, by definition, problems in your wake. If there weren't problems, then it wouldn't have been contravening the fundamental. Sometimes, you can't even get a compromise.

To move from the abstract to the concrete, as an example the second law of thermodynamics is fundamental: That's the way things go, and you can't contravene it. Mallard ducks have violent mating rituals, human power is wasted trying to change that. It is beyond human power. It is duck fundamental. To take things as they are is fundamental.

When I observe humans and their societies, I can easily note that natural rights are violated. They are not fundamental. Natural rights have power in two ways: When humans exercise, respect, and enforce natural rights, they have power. When humans need to justify themselves to each other, they can use natural rights; this is another aspect of their power, the moral aspect.

When you take this way of thinking in a logical framework to its conclusion, you get critical theory. Critical theory is a fun tool. It digests all morality and rationality, breaking it down into power; power is premoral, prerational. Human power applied not to labor, or industry, but to social relations.

So, I have not much to say about ideologies (coherent systems of ideas) except as they are rendered material and thus embodied in the fundamental way of things. When I look at our society, I see conflict as intrinsic to its nature. I think these conflicts can be avoided, but to do so requires coming to grips with the reality of social relations and letting ideas be our subordinates instead of our masters.

You're willing to discard a lot of ideas to find a world that you think is good, which is a good thing. I am willing to discard all ideas and always work with a blank slate.

I kind of started rambling there, and I don't have a punchline or anything. I'll just leave it at that. It was a nice conversation.