> Your comment (and its upmods) is why, my friend, even the most educated and interesting Americans sound like incoherent cavemen...

Totally unnecessary to having a discussion. But I'll address your point:

> ...here we tend to look at each other as consumers and customers first, and human beings - second. What an unfortunate cultural difference, to say the least...

Many people who are opposed to the healthcare bill, including me, do care quite a lot about people. I've run charity events for St. Jude's Children's Hospital in the Stats and Great Ormond Street Children's in London. I donate to charity too, including trying to get a therapy dog program going in Tokyo.

With me so far? Okay, I care about people. I'm not looking at people as consumers or customers. I think the more say elected and appointed officials get over medicine, the worse medicine will be. Elected and appointed officials typically do a terrible job with any science, business, or production that they try to run. For every success story, there's 3-10 dramatic failures.

> Do you really have to be born somewhere else to clearly see the difference between healthcare and food?

They're both essential for survival. The difference is that we've made food very accessible, largely without the help of government. Medicine will get there too, given time.

In fact, over the counter medicines today are incredibly powerful by historical standards. The fact that we can get anti-inflammatories and mild topical steroids over the counter is incredible. We'd be able to get antibiotics too, if it wasn't for the government legislation requiring prescriptions. It's rationalized by saying people could abuse or mistake antibiotics, leading to more antibiotic-resistant strains of diseases. But this hasn't been found to be true in countries with over the counter antibiotics.

> You don't charge people who are scared, in pain or unconscious.

1. The vast majority of medicine isn't trauma medicine, it's fairly routine and predictable thing that you can make educated, thought out judgment calls on.

2. Doctors need to get paid like anyone else to practice their profession. Someone needs to pay them.

3. I'm unwilling to pay for other people's medicine under threat of force. I will actually pay for someone's medicine in some circumstances - I'll run a charity event, donate money, help out a friend or relative. But I do not accept being mandated to buy insurance, pay a tax, or be arrested. I think it's bad for me as an individual and bad for society.

> It's like urinating in public or having sex with your sister: does it need to be explained why you don't do that?

Look, I've seen your comments. People reply to you with intelligent points. Do you care? You talk past people, you ignore their points and respond with more rhetoric.

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My points:

1. Doctors need to be paid to practice their profession.

2. I'm unwilling to pay doctors for other people's medicine under threat of force for failing to do so. You're willing to have me arrested for refusing to play along?

That's the argument. I want healthy people too. I care about society. I've done more to help sick people I don't know than the vast majority of people stumping for government run healthcare. But I think it's wrong on an individual and societal level.