skysight-inc/HackerNews huggingface dataset:
Great article! I have been recently wrestling over the decision of whether to write my next application first as an installable version or as a web app. All of my experience, and my gut instinct, is to do the web app first but I just couldn't set that decision in stone, maybe now I can.
Item ID #804857 < #806501 so you were first!
I did an unpaid internship about 4 years ago.. it got my career started, and for that i'm thankful. But it makes me wonder, could I ask for back pay? I know the work i did provided value to the company.
Your one-two punch of giving them access to both the web and desktop apps for one price shouldn't be undervalued. Do you have any data on how many users consume both products?

I'm a web app developer, but I still think desktop apps can be compelling to buyers. There's use cases for both. Having access to both versions is perfect - I can use the desktop version when I've got a lot of work to do or don't have online access (e.g. when flying). Similarly, I think Microsoft has it right with their upcoming web based versions of Office. I wouldn't want to do heavy spreadsheet work in a web app (as they exist now), but its perfect for quick tasks.

Thought provoking post, as always. Keep 'em coming!
It might have been two days ago. http://xkcd.com/632/ I've used it to try and verify http://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=jedliu, but he (or I guess "it") sadly failed.
In some fields, the unpaid internship is valuable experience. For example, the legal profession. Legal services organizations, such as your local public defender's office or legal aid society provide more experience in 4 months than a $160k job with a big firm would provide in 3 years. You see actual clients, do meaningful legal research, and even appear in court on a regular basis. In contrast, the cushy firm job sees you in an office performing document review (i.e., looking for grammatical/spelling errors) for close to 2 years with the occasional real assignment every few months.

Also note, that in the legal profession, lawyers do not begin generating their profit for their employer (in a firm setting) until 3-4 years in -- it costs money in lost billing opportunities (clients will not pay for a new lawyer's work whatever the quality, but firms must pay salary).

(The 4 month period is chosen because that is the lag between the Cali bar exam and the release of results in late November, the "post-bar" period during which finding a paid job is close to impossible if you didn't already find one before graduation.).
Deltacloud - cloud API from Red Hat
“Startups rarely die from competitors. They die of SUICIDE.” (stupidity, lack of money, lack of customers)"

Startups do die from competition. Kiko is one example straight out of PG's book.
Thanks. I didn't see much value in retreading the well-worn "With desktop apps you can use native APIs, but with web apps you can store data in the cloud" technical flamewar again. What really interests me is how the decision affects the 90% of the business that is not source code, so I wrote about that.
"I think they will still complain"

Why not test your assumptions by trying it on a subset of your users?
You want ME to be grateful for the privilege of getting the experience of making YOU money for nothing in return? Screw YOU.

No one is talking about making you take an unpaid internship that you don't want. We're talking about whether Joe Q. Eagerbeaver should be prevented from taking an unpaid internship that he does want.

Whatever happened to treating people like mentally competent adults capable of making their own life decisions?
No, it is not "bad" because it is from a desktop app, it is bad because desktop apps generally do not tell the user if and when they send information to a remote server.

How about collecting those statistics locally and asking the user every couple of days if he would be okay with sending them to a server, mentioning the reasons for doing so? I think if users had the control over that they wouldn't generally mind doing so.
Do you have any data on how many users consume both products?

Getting data on who is using the desktop version has always been a challenge for me, since I am reluctant to phone home. My one data point: 30% of people who use the web app buy a CD. I'm not sure if that is because they want to use the desktop app too, because they consider the web app the trial and the desktop app the main event (at least one person has demonstrated that understanding), or if it is because they mistakenly think that the software they are using is somehow on the CD.
I believe that has already been tried with Splashup

http://splashup.com/.
Defiant: Practical Tips to Thrive in Tough Times (E-Book)
What You Should Know About Diabetes
Yes, sadly he will, and so will millions and millions more. As a society, we can sit around and call them immoral, say it's stealing, shame them, draft legislation, whatever.

Or... we can accept the situation as it is now (and is likely to be in the future) and just tell the industry that it's their business model, they can deal with the monitoring/policing/lawsuits of it all.

Our collective responsibility to them is very limited (ensuring they get their day in court and that Little Jimmy pays them what he owes them, about $.99/song). We don't need to resort to draconian legislation/monitoring/enforcement to ensure that no one may, at any cost, illegally download T-Pain's newest single.

In short: it's your business model, you deal with it. In the meantime I'll be over here doing something that someone else is willing to pay for...
"the number of people who purchased backup CDs and then proceeded to only use the webapp is downright distressing to me"
If the web site goes away (the "you're hit by a bus" problem) then people still have the software. Not so much for a one-person web shop.
25k list is a large list, IMO. Why aren't you asking, "How can I somehow monetize that list so that I can be more professional? [as in using Constant Contact, etc]"

Sending 25,000 emails 1-2x a month and not getting at least $150 in return is just wasteful.
It certainly does. Anal sex is far more dangerous.
How hot is the iPhone job market? Pretty hot according to Indeed.
If it has value in these forms then why isn't he willing to pay for this value? Basically he wants unpaid interns to subsidize his investment. Not only do the interns themselves pay, but society as a whole pays as unpaid internships devalue labor.
A language should stand on its own merits, but many of the practitioners of programming are not in a position to make an informed evaluation. They are happy if they can remember the difference between an object and a class. The difference between type systems, meta object protocols, syntax extension mechanisms, and so on are going to be lost on them. They don't care, and they don't care to care. (So it's not an issue of "I haven't learned that yet", it's "I never plan to learn more".)

With this in mind, some advocacy is necessary to steer the field in a direction that is pleasing to those that know more. The advocates are just trying to help these people get more out of programming than they are going to get from $simple_language (Java, PHP).

The problem, however, is that many of the advocates are advocating because they randomly picked programming language $foo, think it's good enough, and have never tried anything else. Their advocacy is designed to recruit other followers to justify their own decisions. And that is very silly.

It is especially amusing when this type of advocate attacks the first kind of advocate. The argument is always, "well, but my code works". "Erlang works for phone switches!" "PHP can talk to a MySQL database!" Well, OK, but are you positive those things couldn't be done better in a different language? (The answer is usually, "uh, well, no...", but I digress.)
his parents must be so proud
One day of free time. They do occur.
Actually I don't think everyone starting out has those same priorities. I think many would go for the carrot, as I most likely would have if I'd been unable to find paying work fresh out of school.

If a telemarketing firm had approached me for a free internship with the promise of riches once I put in my time, I may very well have turned down paying positions at McDonald's etc. I'm not trying to say most of us are dumb coming out of school, but I do believe that the fake pot of gold is pretty appealing and that there are many ethically questionable companies who would make all kinds of promises if it would benefit their bottom line.

I think the system where these companies are forced to act at least somewhat ethically by paying a minimum wage is a good system.

I think there is and should be a line though. If you are unable to value your work properly, young or old, then maybe you simply don't deserve to make more than minimum wage. I don't think society should pay for your bad decisions beyond a certain point. However, I like that you can still at least make some sort of living, and I think the company that is benefiting from your poor decision making skills should be footing that bill, and not tax payers. It would be infuriating to pay a wellfare tax while the persons receiving the benefit of that tax are passing it on to companies where they are working for free.

A company could get an extremely discounted rate for certain services if they were able to hire free interns. Then to take it to extremes, if a publicly traded company could gain a competitive edge by doing this, then it's practically illegal for them not to.
If I'm not mistaken, you don't offer any kind of trial account? The similarity is in launching a service that requires people to pay money up front before they can use it.
Know What's Possible
How I Learned to "Love" R6RS Modules
Oops, thanks - I didn't mean to misattribute the quote.
Ah, the "everybody else is doing it, why shouldn't I" rationalization.
Neither Perl nor Python are interpreted. They are both just slow.
In every employee relationship there is:

a) a wage cost to the employer

b) a non-wage cost (supervision, office space, communication overhead) etc.

c) a benefit the worker provides to the company

Note that in general the benefit c) starts off low for an entry-level worker and grows over time with work.

If c) is equal to or less than b), then the employer cannot afford to pay that worker a wage. By creating a minimum wage or banning unpaid work, you are simply banning an employment contract in the situation where c) is less than b) plus the minimum wage.

Sure in some cases employers may suckering kids via a bait in switch. But in a lot of real cases, the internship or apprenticeship is a path upwards. By making it illegal, you are cutting people off. You have not made the kid any better off or engaged in charity. You have simply made a voluntary contract, that for whatever reason this kid thought was better than all his other options illegal. This kid will now simply have to choose a less preferred option.

I used to work at a non-profit helping to find jobs for the homeless. A lot of the people off the streets simply would not be able to produce $7 an hour worth of value to an employer. Perhaps though, they could produce $2 an hour. But that is illegal, so the pathway into the workplace is barred for these people.
This makes about as much sense as those 3d posters from the early 90's.
That is not "smoking", that is "pretty much the same".

If you want to see Python being smoked: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/benchmark.php?test=al...
That description may apply in theory, but in practice the 'employer' wields considerable power over the relationship by how they describe their assessment of the worker.
----------------------------------

EPA Fuel Efficiency Rating: Chevy Volt

City/Highway Combined

Range on full charge: 40 Miles

MPG thereafter: 20

----------------------------------

... so, what are we working on next? :)
What happened to Marc Andressen's past blog postings?
I loved his articles. tried to find them, but realized all of the archives were completely gone. Anyone knows why, or has an archive?
If only it scaled...
OMG, I would so never do that.
Your reply hint that Splashup is a desktop Image Editor that is set to take over Photoshop, but clicking on the link presents me with a POS flash app. Are you trying to say that Splashup already proved that Photoshop will fail to make a web app? It doesn't really matter because Adobe has drunk the Flash cool-aid and will make a Photoshop web app no matter how many have tried before because they will think they can do it better.
That's kinda cool. Does it generate the pairs on the fly and store them with a random identifier or is it deterministic?
Pydev 1.5.0 (Pydev Extensions Open Sourced)
That implies we have no effect on the outcomes of the startups we invest in. From what founders have told us, that doesn't seem to be the case.
Well... yes, ok. I guess I'm just old fashioned: I didn't see "not providing a service for free" as being a particularly notable point. :-)
Ask HN: Debugging JavaScript
I have been debugging JavasScript so far using:

- A sprinkling of assert() and log () statements through my code

- Firebug (but since the new versions of FF keeps giving me problems)

Recently I have been working mostly in Chrome, while developing and I find their inspector of limited use.

Is there a better way? What are HN members using?
from the post:

"We ship a pre-release per day"

"Despite the challenges Continuous Deployment for client software is both possible, and has the same return of Continuous Deployment elsewhere: better feedback, faster iteration times and the ability to make a product better, faster."
So it was you, Patrick, who broke the Internet! If only I had known at the time, I could have told my customers.
I bet the spike has to do with the changes in the FTC rules for robocalls. As of Sept 1st, pre-recorded calls require the telemarketers to have written consent from consumers or face a fine of up to $16,000 per call. I started hearing about this change on the news in the last week or two and I bet the spike is dominated by the "do not call" term as people are looking for more information on what kind of calls they can look forward to not getting. More info near the end of this FTC press release: http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2009/09/twi.shtm

[Edit] Should have taken a minute to finish reading the stats and not just look at the pretty graph. ynniv looks right about the Jaycee Dugard search being included. Why that's in these stats is a mystery of the google...
Seriously? Have you never worked somewhere because you hoped it would pay off huge in the end, even though you had other and higher paying options?

Just because a job is attractive, doesn't mean it's going to further your career or somehow increase your value. And if you can't pay the bills while you're pursuing it, who ends up paying? Not the company who got your hours for free.
I think the weakness in your analysis is that it's framed as a conflict between you and Joe. Joe isn't really trying to force you to do anything. Given that Jim is already making substance S without Joe's permission and selling it to you and others like you, Joe is not claiming that it's immoral or wrong of you to buy Jim's product. Joe is trying to make Bob, who's the head honcho where you and Jim live, to force Jim to make nice with Joe and only sell substance S after obtaining Joe's permission to do so.

The extra layers of indirection are essential, because while everyone would agree that it's logical and reasonable for you to prefer buying Jim's product to dying (this being your point), it isn't at all clear that Bob ought to agree with that. Bob is supposed to represent not just your interests, but also interests of all other people in the area. It's conceivable that a lot of them will die much sooner if Joe switches to penis pills, than if Joe didn't and continued to develop life-saving drugs. It's fine for you to decide to put your life first and deal with the fallout as it comes; do you have an argument as to why Bob ought to do the same?
He's not taking it, he's copying it. Quite the difference.
Is it me or is the site broke?
My previous startup, Scribnia, was rejected a year ago. We ended up with a nice exit, selling to a content network. It's also top 100k on Compete.
Their no better or worse than any other, their just heavily attacked since it's so wide spread use.

It's preferable write a exploit of find a flaw in something so widespread and carpet bomb them all instead of doing the same for a rarely used piece of software.
I volunteer for a huge corporation, along with hundreds of other people, to do things that couldn't be done if they had to pay employees. It's a hobby that has aspects of a side-job.

I don't see why it couldn't work for Cuban.

(Interestingly enough, volunteering is illegal in France, where the people that would be volunteers for this otherwise are actually employed and in a union.)
"A subtle form of class discrimination" is a far cry from "class warfare." I'm saying that, ethically speaking, unpaid internships help to further close off certain careers to people who are traditionally disadvantaged by giving opportunities to get ahead to people who are already traditionally more advantaged.

If you disagree with that logic, that's fine: just explain how I'm wrong instead of just dismissing it.
Never something I thought to read about, but definitely entertaining.

Now somebody needs to do a writeup on the history of Nerf guns!
Strawman in a sense were the party offering the unpaid internship distorts the value of the compensation through gaining experience. So the argument of the first party not being paid can be refuted by saying that compensation occurs through gaining experience.

You are right though, it's quite a stretch of the term.

What I wanted to say is that the party offering compensation through experience is, in my opinion, just trying to get free work and making it look like they are "paying" by "giving out" experience.

A person on a full-time internship should get enough to cover basic living expenses. The employer should pay (in money) what the work done is worth to them.
It does carry a higher risk of transmitting an STD from one person to another, yes. So I'm wrong to say that it has "nothing" to do with it. But in terms of epidemiology, the higher risk of transmission associated with a given form of sex is insignificant compared to having many partners. Spread, not risk of transmission, is by far the dominant factor here, even if they're not entirely separable. Sort of like the difference between scalability and performance.
What is interesting is what the article doesn't say. It doesn't contain the words "Apple" or "iTunes".

In the US, Apple has about 90% market share for legal music downloads. They have 25% market share for all music sales, physical and download.

I can think of nothing more relevant to the topic than how Apple has managed to pull this off, but the article ignores it completely.

See:

http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2009/08/19/apples-itunes-nabs-...
RepRap, a (potentially) self-replicating 3D printer
Java on 1000 cores (in one box)
You're forgetting that Joe made his decision in a different circumstance.

Substance S exists because at various times in the past Joe made the decision to do substance S. He made those decisions under the assumption that he'd be compensated. You have the option to use substance S under Joe's terms because he made those decisions.

Think of it this way. What if you'd die if Joe didn't touch you? The reason that Joe's touch can save you is that Joe spent 10 years studying and practicing. (Other folks tried but failed to develop this ability.)

Does Joe owe you his touch?
The drugs that were pirated weren't made for poor countries in the first place. They were made for rich countries and the drug companies in question get compensated for their research by their sales in these rich countries.

I don't think drug companies are going to stop researching drugs that will make them money in rich countries.
"Okay, mine says 'Unhandled Exception', yours?"

http://xkcd.com/632/ (yesterday's xkcd)
Some very interesting points and discussion here; what surprises me is no mention yet of the major thought experiment addressing many of the AI/intelligence arguments made here - the 29-year old Chinese Room paper by John Searle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room

In sum,

(A1) "Programs are formal (syntactic)."
(A2) "Minds have mental contents (semantics)."
(A3) "Syntax by itself is neither constitutive of nor sufficient for semantics."
(C1) Programs are neither constitutive of nor sufficient for minds.
I lost 20 lbs while eating two big macs almost everyday. It just so happened that I was probably burning near 5,000 calories a day when I happened to lose the weight.

You could sit down and eat a jar of sugar if you wanted, you'd just have to be burning that many calories.
If Joe gives permission to Jim to make the drugs, then it lends legitimacy to Jim's drugs which may lead people to buy them that might otherwise buy direct from Joe.
The bad queries show up after your blog has already been hacked.
If your application requires 3GHZ of CPU, and 256MB of RAM, it simply won't be economical to host it on the web.

The argument that using 3GHZ is too much? Then why do Intel sell 3GHZ chips...
Alternates between 404 and "Unhandled Exception". Bit too easy for bots, no?
I mean what's the point of starting a business if not to mess with people? :-)
While that "works", what fraction of survey participants will actually do that?

I suspect that many/most folks who are reluctant to admit that they've done something won't admit it even if you tell them that other people "will" falsely admit to doing said thing so based on a coin flip. That's completely rational because I suspect that many people who haven't done said thing won't say that they have just because the coin tells them to.
http://xooglers.blogspot.com/

one of the primary authors of this blog was a google marketer for several years. if you read the earliest parts of the archives, he goes into the interview process they put him through in great detail. summary: it was every bit as rigorous as the programming interviews, but focused on marketing topics.
Ten Examples of Great Information Architecture
My Microsoft Interview
If it even has the potential to turn a profit, then he should foot the cost of the risk, not the interns.

To put it in terms of the startup culture of hacker news:

This is like asking entrepreneurs to work on your startup for free because there is a huge chance that the startup will be unprofitable.

However in the chance that it does become profitable, then you will not be paid in any way, and the only thing you will get out of it is a resume booster and a "chance" to work as a regular salaried employee.

See how silly this reasoning is now?
WordPress registers users for comments in the same table as administrators, making anonymous commenters into "administrators" with no privileges. It is constructed almost entirely out of concatenated SQL queries with no explicit parameter bindings. It's internationalized and relies on explicit input filtering. Its templates are executable code; templates can pop a shell. It has, in the actual web application, a "theme editor" that edits that executable code. Because it's built on ad-hoc PHP, it's had --- within the last two years --- remote file inclusion vulnerabilities, where people can load portions of other people's WordPress installs off their own MySpace pages. It supports hundreds of plugins, all of which have the exact same problems and the exact same exposure.

vBulletin and Mediawiki are also incredibly popular. But they have nothing resembling the rap sheet that WordPress has.

Try another argument.
Isn't it crazy?
it's not a startup though, is it?
It says in the about section: "This blog is on temporary hiatus -- will be back soon with a new design and fresh content!"
'A scientist is a machine for turning money into ideas. An engineer is a machine for turning ideas into money'