> I didn't call you a moron

You did not. The self-deprecating bit is more about the fact that liberal lore requires that anyone not on the left be characterized as a religious idiot missing one or more teeth. Well, I am not any of that. I am also trying to highlight the fact that someone can actually be a moron and his or her argument can still stand on its own merits (or fall because of the lack thereof).

If I must be a moron to be heard, fine. I'll be a moron. I am not, but that's OK. Believe it or not, I am trying to be constructive here. HN is dominated by younger people who are obviously indoctrinated to the left. The tech industry actually went out of their way to help Obama get elected. This is nothing less than religious, mindless indoctrination. All of these people are very smart. They simply didn't want to stop and do a little thinking. And, of course, the young ones simply don't have enough life and business experience to actually get it. It takes effort and the ability to see the world from a very different level to leave religious belief behind, political or theological.

> "Obamacare is bad therefore socialised healthcare is wrong"

Nursie, you are the only person saying that in this thread. Please do not read past what I actually say. I did not say that.

> Obamacare may be a great example of why the US government doesn't work so well

It is. In fact, it is the best example money can buy. And it is fantastic because everyone now sees it and everyone cares because it touches them directly. Nothing sadder than talking on an extreme left-winger who just got the news that he and his family are going to have to pay through their teeth for healthcare that before Obamacare was pretty good and cost them less than half what it will with the new program. I have a number of ideologically leftist friends who work in Hollywood that simply don't want to talk about it. They got so royally screwed by Obamacare that it has rocked their entire belief system.

If we got any value out of this experiment is that we paid hundreds of millions of dollars to demonstrate what NOT to do.

> to an outside observer that seems to be because the market-worshipers seem to need to be placated at every turn, when their requirements are contrary to efficiency, fairness or good sense.

And that's the problem with being an outside observer. Although, in this day an age you have access to just about as much information as I do.

No, Obamacare isn't a failure because of the need to accomodate market-worshipers. To the contrary. Obamacare was brewed and passed into law with EVERYONE from the right and Libertarian parties either being explicitly excluded from the process and/or speaking and voting against it. Democrats used parliamentary twists and turns I couldn't possibly recite to get it through Congress. It is fair to say, if we assume our representatives, well, represent us, that half the country or more was against the entire thing.

Obamacare was passed with virtually nobody having read the law. It was passed with the President publicly committing fraud by making promises dozens of times, promises that are now well established to have been lies. It was also passed with Senators making such false promises. And, of course, who can forget our beloved Nancy Pelosi's "We have to pass the law to see what's in it". In other words, it was, for all intents and purposes shoved down our throats, falsely represented from the President on down and deemed into law by parliamentary force. There was no learned debate of the issues and the solutions. The thing is an ugly mess that was brewed behind closed doors. Now the doors are open and we can see they were brewing poison rather than a healthy concoction.

Perhaps that's what you missed as an outsider. Not because you didn't have access to the information, but, let's face it, we are all too busy to be concerned with the minutiae of things that, at the end of the day, don't affect us personally. I have no clue what's going on in France or Spain. The information is all out there. I'm just really busy with matters that concern me and my family to really have the time to understand about issues from far away that hardly touch me. In that sense, yes, you are absolutely correct, as an outsider you are only seeing one aspect of reality. And, frankly, if your information comes from liberal or right-wing outlets such as CNN and Fox you will only be exposed to the ideological extremes. The sad reality is that getting to the truth requires work and if it isn't going to affect you there really is no incentive to do the work and really understand what's going on.

I can't criticize you for not understanding what is really going on here. All I can say is that you should consider the possibility that you really don't get it because you are not personally and emotionally invested enough to expend the effort necessary to understand it.

Love the UK. Every time I go to Europe, London is my "base of operations". I keep it low key and stay at the Holiday Inn @ Kings Cross. Fantastic little Greek restaurant within walking distance.

Now, I'd really like to understand. What does a top-of-the-line plan through the NHS (if such a thing exists) cost a typical family of four with no major healthcare issues?