You use this word, "metaphorical", a lot. I don't think it means what you think it means.

As a near-English major who's gotten into prestigious writing programs on the quality of his writing ability, I think "Hacker News is a ghetto" is indeed metaphorical, unless people here by downvoting you are in fact popping caps in your ass. I extended your metaphor in what is known as a conceit, or extended metaphor. Think of it like the "love sonnet" from Romeo and Juliet, only instead of wooing you, I told you that you were being silly for calling Hacker News a ghetto. (However, anybody who quotes Princess Bride can't be all bad, and you are making good points. I just don't like people complaining about downvotes.)

Also, what on earth makes you think I, or my musician friends (who I expressly told you work low-paid jobs as bartenders) don't have jobs? I'm a developer at a equity stat arb hedge fund, and I'm doing just fine, thank you very much. However, unlike you, I have the ability to empathise with my musician buddies who are less fortunate and didn't have the benefit of obtaining a Masters in Maths and Computing from Imperial College.

Congrats! You have money. Finance yourself, go indie. It worked for a ton of really talented bands who hit it big after recording in their garage. "Garage bands", that's a familiar concept.

Who cares if YouTube never offered that arrangement? If you recall, the idea was that YouTube was supposed to be the forum fo r which Joe internet user could post funny videos about himself, not for the wholesale ripoff of established and up-and-comin g artists. Do you really think that YouTube would have achieved the traffic it enjoys without the flagrant hosting of copyrig hted material? And, just to repeat, seeing as you don't seem so bright: the material is COPYRIGHTED. Far from being greedy, i t is absolutely right and proper for musicians to demand remuneration for the the use of that material.

If it's copyrighted, you can demand it be pulled.

Yes, the internet does empower artists in some sense. But food and rent don't grow of trees. People need to pay for music in order for musicians to continue making it.

That's definitely a problem, but the solution isn't demanding arbitrary fees. You can't fight the system: you can only adapt to it and figure out what the new optimal solution is. Part of me thinks that we should go back to musical patrons: rich people with taste funding poorer artists and giving them room. Groups like the Normative Music Company do that, in a way, and I like the results a lot.

The implicit threat from YouTube is "accept our staggeringly low royalties, or deal with the piracy issue on your own." If yo u'd bother to read Waterman's statements for example, you'd know that on the basis of around a million views of his Rick Aste ly songs, he got 11 quid. Is that fair?

Why didn't he ask Youtube to pull them, then? I don't think this is an "implicit threat", even if it is a problem for artist. They aren't threatening. They've stated their terms pretty unequivocally.

You are obvioulsy a layman who has no real expertise or interest in the music business. If you did, you would know that getting Logic Studio -- which, incidentally, costs 200 pounds, hardly a small amount for someone working behind a bar (not to mention a pair of AKG 414s -- 500 pounds each, in order to record drums, a few SM57s at 60 pounds a pop, a decent mike preamp, ... shall I continue?) (all the tracks on my myspace were recorded like this, all programmed by me, all done on cubase, so pardon me if I laugh when you say "learn a teensy bit about music recording") -- is far from being enough to record an album.

Look, we're in the new millenium. Things have changed. If you really, really think it's worth it, pirate Logic Studios and pay for it once you've made enough money. I'd argue that's a noble thing to do. Or hey, stick to Garage Band.

I'll state this pretty straightforwardly, because your attitude is a pretty pampered one. If you want to record an album, all you need is a computer with a microphone and amateur editing software. You sing into it, you play your guitar into it, you get the band all playing. No, it won't sound "pristine", but it doesn't need to be if all you're making is a demo. Record it rough, release it, spread things around. If you're any good you'll get people interested.

Remember that generally speaking half of a labels budget for an album goes to marketing and promotion, not to the actual recording of an album. Plugging a record on the radio, putting up advertisements, etc. all cost money. Why would a label finance this for anything more than sure-fire hits in the face of widespread piracy? And then people here complain about a lack of "vitality". It's so hypocritical!

Yeah, well fuck that system of thinking. You don't need it. Look at the Fleet Foxes, who started with nothing, recorded a terrific EP, distributed it online, and then became a huge hit. I found them on Something Awful. No advertising budget. Just word of mouth. That's also how I discovered Joanna Newsom, and nearly every musician I listen to that isn't classical. (And classical music I usually follow recommendations as well. Somebody here just recommended Einaudi last week.)

No, you see, actually, it's the other way around. YOU have the right to listen to my music, IF you pay the price that I deem fit. Otherwise, you shouldn't listen to it, because then you're breaking the law, and trampling roughshod over my rights. Capiche? If you walk into a shop and want to buy a skateboard, then it's the shopkeepers prerogative to set the price, is it not? Why should it be any different for music? The seller sets the price, and the buyer can exercise his vote of disapproval by not buying -- and using -- the product. Not by engaging in some self-serving so-called "civil disobedience" and just stealing the product. That one even needs to state this point is astonishing.

I listened to your music. I followed both your links. It's mediocre at best. I wouldn't pay for that. If I pirated it I'd probably delete it from iTunes to free up space. But at least I listened to it. If you were charging me money, I wouldn't have paid, because my expectations were low. At least with free distribution, I had a chance to hear it. Meanwhile, with this Joanna Newsom I keep talking about, I pirated her debut album, fell hardcore in love, and then bought copies of it for all my friends. She deserved my money, so I gave it.

Of course the "superawesome" will rise up. And, of course, I believe The Signals belong in that category ;) However, and this is the point, when an industry sees its revenues fall by 50% in less than ten years, you can be sure that many interesting but perhaps more niche acts will be left by the by. And that's sad.

I disagree. That's a sign of an overinflated industry losing some air. Too much money goes into music right now. Having the industry lean up and smarten up will encourage more musical diversity.

As for not using logic, well, I think my posting record is clear for anyone with a modicum of intellectual honesty. I addressed the original posters remarks. I justified my use of strong language. Where is the lack of logic?

Don't get me wrong, your original post is great! So's this one: it deserves upvotes. But once you got downvoted, you could have either waited for upvotes to happen again, or you could have attempted to clarify your statement in a follow-up post, in the hopes that it would right some wrongs. I've done that a few times, and it helps. But posting complaining about people downvoting you only alienates the people who're on your side. That's what I was complaining about: not at all about posts like this, which are absolutely contributing to the conversation.