> Nice "reasons".

Yeah, if you ignore the reasoning I place right next to my evaluations and just quote the evaluations, it certainly looks like I don't have reasons. Very clever of you. Also, I don't think it's wrong or abusive for me to call something that is clearly hyperbolic, disingenuous, or bad faith hyperbolic, disingenuous, or bad faith. That's precisely what you've done to me, except better: because instead of actually arguing why I'm wrong about any of the things I'm saying, or trying to argue your case at all, you've just vaguely gestured at the data, falsely assuming that all reasonable people must agree on interpretations of the data, and then when I disagreed you labeled me with various things you thought applied to me, although while I described the sources themselves, you directed it at me.

> And no, your 4KB rant about how System76 may or may not also do bad things, how much you hate people who want "meaningless things like app indicators and themes", how much you hate "the shit Android oems do",

I don't hate those people simply for wanting those things at all, I just think that the way they are treating The Gnome developers is abusive and unacceptable, and that they are being entitled and disingenuous in their demands to have those things in someone else's project. That's pretty different. Like, in actuality, I recommend system 76 to all my friends and I'm huge fans of most of their work, I ran PopOS asked for quite some time, I just think they are being unfair in this case.

> but neither downstream distros nor upstream apps deserve the same autonomy,

Because downstream distros are not making their own desktop environment, they are using GNOME's desktop environment. You have to ignore that fact to believe I'm being inconsistent here.

> how KDE supposedly "just don't care" about themes (blatantly false, especially under TFA)

If you actually read my words instead of scanning them to look for things you could be angry about, in which case you would have actually noticed my reasons standing right beside the words that apparently made you just immediately see red, you would have also noticed that I didn't say KDE doesn't care about themes. TDE obviously does care about making it seeming possible and easy for people. Katie just doesn't care that themes, by their inherent nature, can break things occasionally. That was my point.

> None of that is is actually relevant to how GNOME treats people.

It is actually, because what I'm trying to show is that the demands and arguments of the people in the sources are fundamentally misguided, and that therefore their argument that the way gnome is treating them is unfair is unfounded. Also, I read through in detail all of your sources yesterday, from top to bottom, including all of the bug tracker exchanges and all of that, as well as several more posts on ignorant gurus website, and I never once saw an instance of The Gnome people responding with undo aggression or verbal abuse towards him even when he was continually trolling their bug tracker, meanwhile his entire block is filled with aggressive conspiratorial writing.

> I have no desire to let you "infinitely increase the granularity of the discussion, so that the rhetorical burden on me just expands indefinitely and you can always bring up a new thing and say I haven't dealt with it".

I'm not trying to infinitely increase the granularity of the discussion, I'm actually trying to have a discussion where reasons are exchanged and critiques, but all you seem to do is grandstand about morality without ever making an argument or anything of the sort.

> The point is how GNOME treats people, and (after your aggressive replies) how you treat people

Aggression is not a mark of being a bad or abusive person when it is in response to conspiratorial nonsense like ignorant Guru likes to spout. I wasn't the one who initiated this tone of the conversation, that was your first source and your own conspiratorial and aggressive lines about gnome. And I mean clearly you agree with me on that, since you responded with aggression to what you perceived as bullshit, as well, so I don't understand why we have this double standard where I can't do the same.

> only you are real to you

No, I can safely say I understand the frustration of the people that wrote the sources you're talking about, I just think the frustration is misdirected and based on unfair expectations. This is why I have a lot of Hope for Cosmic de , because it's actually designed for the sorts of things people want, so hopefully everyone can just move to it and leave gnome behind. Or just switch to kde, honestly, which seems to be what a lot of distros are doing now that there are starting to notice that gnome isn't actually a good basis for a distro branded and customized experience. I don't think failing to immediately agree with someone simply because they are frustrated or upset and say that they were ill served by someone is a failure of empathy if I think their assessment of the situation is wrong. Everybody has to use their own mind to evaluate the situation and decide for themselves what's happening, instead of taking the fact that some people are angry as evidence that they must be angry in the same direction too.

> Say "Hi" to Tom Emmeness for me. The only ungrowing are the unliving.

Well, one of us was trying to have a discussion about the sources and wanted to hear answers to their rationale for not finding them precisely convincing, and one of us is just assuming that everyone who is a right thinking good person will automatically agree with them and no more argumentation or discussion is necessary at all, so I think it's pretty clear who is the growing and who is the not growing among the two of us.