skysight-inc/HackerNews huggingface dataset:
Yeah, "OpenAI employees would actually prefer to make lots of money now" seems like a plausible answer by default.

It's easy to be a true believer in the mission _before_ all the money is on the table...
It is probably best to assume that the employees have more and better information than outsiders do. Also, clearly, there is no consensus on safety/alignment, even within OpenAI.

In fact, it seems like the only thing we can really confirm at this point is that the board is not competent.
Pegging goods directly to the dollar will help with inflation. People will earn relative to the dollar and price goods relative to the dollar not the peso so people will see the prices go up at a slower pace. Inflation is partly due to the anticipation of prices going up. It's a psychological fix. As time continues more dollars will get into the economy and the move to dollar will may be possible. It's a longer term solution. Also the central bank won't go away tomorrow if ever. The man is a president not a dictator so he still needs to deal with the rest of the government to get things done. He may want to get rid of the central bank but I doubt everyone will go with his ideas. It's only a possibility not a definite.

People think he will do all the changes on day one but it's going to be years if ever.
Even if they don't, the OpenAI staff already know 99 ways to not make a good GPT model and can therefore skip those experiments much faster than anyone else.
I was thinking of this the other day. I was trying to remember the name of the language and to look it up.

Elm really broke my heart, I believed it will go places it never went. Roc honestly, I am OK to play around with it and build whatever makes me happy.
It was for a company as top heavy and dysfunctional at Nokia. This has been well documented by Nokia members at the time. I had a post on HN digging specifically into this. Read "Transforming Nokia" sometime. It's a pretty decent overview of Nokia during that time period
the existential fear of billionaires appears to be that they won't have things rather than life.
So, from you experience, what were the main show stoppers for the startups that you had the chance to see/observe?
this is great. redundancy across models (closed and open-source) seems like an obvious need, esp in light of everything this weekend
> No, we don't operate like that. Call me out when I'm wrong technically

You're being "called out" (ugh) incredibly politely mostly because you were being a bit rude; "tell me X without telling me" is just a bit unpleasant, and totally counterproductive.

> because someone is some sort of celebrity that I should cut them some slack.

No one mentioned a celebrity. You're not railing against the power of celebrity here; just a call for politeness.

> Everything he pointed out is literally covered in the GCP Tasks documentation.

Yes, e.g. as pitfalls.
"Ilya Sutskever
@ilyasut
I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions. I never intended to harm OpenAI. I love everything we've built together and I will do everything I can to reunite the company."
Show HN: How we built an AI copilot for Windmill's code workflows
The economics of a ~$500k car supported by $2.5 million per year of personnel, all to undercut an immigrant working as a 1099 contractor for… a few bucks an hour saved? The math never worked and it still doesn’t work.
IMO the only actually new thing we've actually seen with UAPs/UFOs is that people are making the claims under oath now. His whole public testimony was one giant tease with no concrete info and a lot of 2nd+ hand innuendo. The whole 'slow disclosure' idea reeks to me of the same punting of putting up the evidence that happened in 2020 with the Kraken and the entirety of the Q nonsense. The people pushing it didn't have evidence and assumed they could either BS their way past not having it or someone would come forward out of nowhere with it and the timelines always moved out to accommodate the lack of anything coming out. I'll believe it when I see some actual evidence.
> The core of the narrative thus far

Could somebody clarify for me: how do we know this? Is there an official statement, or statements by specific core people? I know the HN theorycrafters have been saying this since the start before any details were available
501(c)(3) is also not the only form of non-profit (note the (3))

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501(c)_organization

"Religious, Educational, Charitable, Scientific, Literary, Testing for Public Safety, to Foster National or International Amateur Sports Competition, or Prevention of Cruelty to Children or Animals Organizations"

However, many other forms of organizations can be non-profit, with utterly no implied morality.

Your local Frat or Country Club [ 501(c)(7) ], a business league or lobbying group [ 501(c)(6), the 'NFL' used to be this ], your local union [ 501(c)(5) ], your neighborhood org (that can only spend 50% on lobbying) [ 501(c)(4) ], a shared travel society (timeshare non-profit?) [ 501(c)(8) ], or your special club's own private cemetery [ 501(c)(13) ].

Or you can do sneaky stuff and change your 501(c)(3) charter over time like this article notes. https://stratechery.com/2023/openais-misalignment-and-micros...
Correct. This is all really bad for Microsoft and probably great for Google. Yet, judging by price changes right now, markets don’t seem to understand this.
We're not fighting poverty, we're fighting poor people!

Which is a very expensive war, so it might be cheaper to give some of that money to the poor people, so they can spend it more effectively.
This is such a complete misreading of what's happening. Not sure why I keep seeing this on HN.
I don't know how much OpenAI pays. But for this reply, I'm going to assume it's in line with what other big players in the industry pay.

I legitimately don't understand comments that dismiss the pursue of better compensation because someone is "already among the highest lifetime earners on the planet."

Superficially it might make sense: if you already have all your lifetime economic needs satisfied, you can optimize for other things.
But does working in OpenAI fulfill that for most employees?

I probably fall into that "highest earners on the planet" bucket statistically speaking. I certainly don't feel like it: I still live in a one bedroom apartment and I'm having to save up to put a downpayment on a house / budget for retirement / etc. So I can completely understand someone working for OpenAI and signing such a letter if a move the board made would cut down their ability to move their family into a house / pay down student debt / plan for retirement / etc.
That sounds like a perfectly executed plan to get MS all the good stuff.
Lol as if the gov't having access to it is somehow worse than fucking microsoft having their grubby greedy hands on it? As if they're moral and give a shit about literally anything other than their bottom line and how to extract the maximum amount of money out of everything they ever touch?

Besides, state actors probably already have tech that far surpasses GPT and they're probably using it for a lot more than making people feel clever for copy/pasting a CRUD app together for their useless startup.
Right, just like not giving them access to TSMC and advanced fab designs doesn't stop them. And not giving them access to advanced jet engines didn't slow them down.

Except... it does and the net effect was seen just this week as Xi started softening his tone realizing that his economy cannot keep up without access to advanced technology.
Yep, this boomer and silent gerontocracy is why we ended up with the biggest wealth transfer FROM younger generations to them.

It's also how we got DARE garbage, of bandying around drugs to 6th graders and saying "doooont useeee theseeee", combined with lies like 'smoking a marijuanas will lead to your death!". (Massive kudos to Erowid, for debunking so much of these lies.)

But it's unsurprising the biggest gerontocratic welfare program has old fucks with antiquated and completely garbage views of humans.
>who runs these sites and why?

Here's a relevant article + discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37009598
My estimate is that a typical staff engineer who'd been at OpenAI for 2+ years could have sold $8 million of stock next month. I'd be pissed too.
Yeah I mean, who cares if ASI kills us all as long as a couple hundred of the most well-paid people on the planet get even more rich.

It's insane to see all these takes when we don't even know what caused the loss of trust in the first place.
Wouldn't it be the opposite? When Safari & Chrome were more similar you could get away with testing only one. Now you have to test on at least both Safari & Chrome, and anything that works on both of those is more likely to work on Firefox than something that only works on Chrome.
reminds me of my favourite SI unit, the MegaGram (1 metric tonne)
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/25/podcasts/the-daily/nonpro...
He posted an apology because he failed. If he had succeeded we would've said "it was very difficult but it was the right thing to do"
No, I am your daddy.
No one targeting an American market would be crazy enough to ignore Safari because of iOS’s market share.
Not just Sam, since Greg stuck with Sam and immediately quit he set the precedent for the rest of the company. If you read this post[0] by Sam about Greg's character and work ethic you'll understand why so many people would follow him. He was essentially the platoon sergeant of OpenAI and probably commands an immense amount of loyalty and respect. Where those two go, everyone will follow.

[0] https://blog.samaltman.com/greg
I guess employees are compensated with stocks from the for profit entity. And at the face value before the saga, stocks could be like 90%, 95% or even more of the total value of their packages. How many people are really willing to wipe 90% of their salary out? Just to stick on the mission? On the other hand, M$ offers to match. The day employees are compensated with the stock of the for-profit arm, there is no way to return to nonprofit and their charter any more.
When I browsed GitHub repos. I came across some repos that implied "Because my thing is written in Rust, it automatically comes with a good performance, good scalability, etc". Jumping into a new language because people said it has good performance without actually understanding suited applications and the reason it gives a good performance seems to be a hype to me. It can be just my own bias. Maybe people out there already have a very solid understanding of Rust.
> Even if they don't, the OpenAI staff already know 99 ways to not make a good GPT model and can therefore skip those experiments much faster than anyone else.

This unequivocally .... knowing not how to waste a very expensive training run is a great lesson
Sounds like a statement made by a man with a gun pointed to his head.
Sometimes I'm not sure if intelligence could actually push our willingness to solve long term problems. It can show us simpler solutions but I doubt there are solutions simple enough for people to act.
Interesting divide-by-zero behavior when I use the interpreter in the webpage:

» 1/0

1000000000000000000 : Frac *
what an imaginative count of events. this guy should definitely work on the inevitable netflix documentary.
They have access to the weights as per their agreement with open ai; idk if that allows them to use it as a starting point. They also will have access to several of the people who did it. It’s insanely hard to do the first time, but probably just hard to do the second time after you already know what worked before.
Is it possible that someone in Ilya's position can be unaware of just how staggeringly enormous a phenomenon he is sitting on top of ( and thus have no idea how to evaluate the scale of the backlash that would result?)

I would say the answer is, demonstrably yes:

https://techcrunch.com/2010/09/29/google-excite/
It's also the location of JET, the Joint European Tokomak!
where is the github?
Source for your statement?
the layers of the cube are just the number of elements in the set, for the cube on 4 elements 1,2,3,4, we have the coloring where every set containing 1 is blue. certainly there is a blue one element set {1} so by your intuition, every three element set must be blue, but {2,3,4} does not contain 1, so it is white.
> don't really want to set a precedent

Or sensibly they want to set the precedent that AU$400 is the appropriate amount!
So when C level acts like a robot you don't like it and when they act like human beings you don't like it either. It's difficult to be a C-level I guess.
Heh, where were you in 1983 when I needed a decent Z80 Compiler :-) (edit: oh this isn't C. Still, any compiler would have been a step up from asm)

(I was at a small company doing mailing list processing for non-profit fundraising campaigns, on an IMSAI (upgraded to a Z80 and 24M hard drive) (no that's not a typo, it was huge by which I mean
* it was split in to 3x 8M pseudo disks so it fit the CP/M filesystem limits
* it was about the size of a pair of tower PCs tipped over and laid side-by-side
) and we were looking askance at IBM PCs in particular - not enough I/O, not faster - in observable ways, like WordStar had noticeable latency compared to the Z80 version - it was pretty easy to believe the gossip that "these were only moving in quantity because IBM was forcing their big customers to buy them", which was a popular theory it at the time.

We were, with hindsight, entirely wrong :-)
Most of people building the actual ML systems don't care about existential ML threats outside of lip service and for publishing papers. They joined OpenAI because OpenAI had tons of money and paid well. Now that both are at risk, it's only natural that they start preparing to jump ship.
It might be the influx of all the MBA-CEO-Steve-Job wannabe types due to the tech boom and normalisation of tech entrepreneurship, and due to YC becoming a brand.
Sorry to disagree, but I don't think it is hatred and it is not a war.

I think it is indifference mixed with selfishness and a collection of many little or perhaps not so little power grabs. One example might be that poor people can't rent a flat somewhere they can have a good life, because everybody else is already there and this is expressed in a rent poor people can't afford.

Another little power grab: Call a taxi when it is raining heavily, and you beckon strongly and the taxi is stopping for you and not for the handicapped woman because the taxi driver saw you first. When you are already sitting you suddenly see the woman outside and you realize that she needs the taxi more than you. It is sort of an effort to get out and tell the taxi driver that she was first. It is easier for you to just drive away.

It is war if people expressly try to hurt poor people. But I just don't think that the majority of well-off people are this evil. They are mostly indifferent, selfish and enjoy the benefits of the power grabs they do.

This said, I agree with you that many people in the USA are strongly indifferent and selfish and they justify this with saying that they live in a meritocracy and that everybody had the same chance to be successful, and if a poor person is not successful it's their own fault. But that's not hatred nor a war.
Aand it's dead

https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/other/stratford-msg-sphere-...
In the USA (and UK) if you are poor you are considered a LOSER! Society in these two cultures is all about Winners and LOSERS. If you are not rich you are a LOSER. A LOSER is a pariah. Everybody loves Winners and hates Losers. If the game is rigged, then you lost because you didn't figure out how to manipulate it for your benefit. That makes you a loser.

This belief or philosophy or religion is also known as "Survival of the Fittest". Its a cult.
If you were offered a 100% raise and kept current work responsibilities to go work for, say, a tobacco company, would you take the offer? My guess is >90% of people would.

Funny how the cutoff for “morals should be more important than wealth” is always {MySalary+$1}.

Don’t forget, if you’re a software developer in the US, you’re probably already in the top 5% of earners worldwide.
Might there also be a consideration of peak value of OpenAI? If a bunch of competing similar AIs are entering the market, and if the usecase fantasy is currently being humbled, staff might be thinking of bubble valuation.

Did anyone else find Altman conspicuously cooperative with government during his interview at Congress? Usually people are a bit more combative. Like he came off as almost pre-slavish? I hope that's not the case, but I haven't seen any real position on human rights.
Operator?
Looking for Exposure?
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Ilya, in his tweet, says he regrets the firing decision. You can't regret an act that you never committed.
There is no solid evidence that Setskever instigated the firing beyond speculation by friends who suggest that he had disagreements with Altman. It could just as well have been any of the other board members, or even a simple case of groupthink (the Asch conformity effect) run amok.

Furthermore, it's consistent with all available information that they would prefer to continue without Sam, but they would rather have Sam than lose the company, and now that Microsoft has put its foot down, they'd rather settle.
Maybe I'm not understanding something, but I would use a programming language I liked even if one of the main contributors was the worst human on earth.

I don't understand why people have to make technical stuff personal.
You say this as if it does something other than reinforce that Microsoft has figured out how to do this effectively and demonstrated that capability multiple times.
You don't have enough instances to know whether the data suggest that or not.
If your goal is to work for a profit-sharing company, then don't work for a non-profit.
> Because that's exactly what he says?

Is it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwtaM0GC-js
Absolutely! Thanks for pointing out that I missed Greg in my answer.
Probably some combination of:
1. Pressure from Microsoft and their e-team
2. Not actually caring about those stakes
3. A culture of putting growth/money above all
I’d say that’s one of a few unique selling points. Some others I noticed:

- side effects are strictly relegated to async effects, eg all I/O calls return a future

- declarative static loading as imports
> I don't think the C standard would ever introduce `tgetenv()` to fix a problem it doesn't have

The C standard has no problem acknowledging that getenv is subject to data races for most of its implementations. As far as I can tell that part was even added at the same time as threading support.
> A list of things that a coherent story does not make

What an awkward way to start a post about being coherent.

But more to the point, I don't see what is supposed to be incoherent here.

There are some really obvious conflicts between commercial interests and the general betterment of humankind in the development of AI. Those conflicts have come to a boil quickly under the heat of all the success and interest in chatgpt. Mix in the normal amounts of human ego, ambition, ignorance and stupidity and there you go.

> Update: this post has been instantly demoted from #1 to #26 on HN frontpage :) Hmm.

Could be due to being speculative, a lack of content or anything new, and pretty poor writing. It's doomed to generate responses of similar quality and usefulness. Sorry, but this just adds nothing except random hysteria to the whole thing, and meanwhile there are already plenty of other threads on which this can all be discussed (hopefully at a somewhat higher level).
But don't you realize people can ask for the bot to make a shitty CRUD app for them!?!?!

Think of the possibilities!!
admission of guilt, liability
I do have to say.. I find it ironic that 2 days ago you commented

> Why not Bun?

On a perfectly fine project that was using Deno instead of Bun. You can't really have it both ways.
This is such a great project, thank you for sharing! It seems like you're getting the usual dump of negativity around HTMX... but as usual, not much coming from anyone who's actually tried to build something small/medium-sized. I keep hearing that this stack "would" fall apart in a bigger project, but I never hear any concrete, empirical descriptions of issues that actually do arise.

I'll offer one here... using HTMX usually means you're going to be writing HTML templates, and HTML templating languages don't have much IDE support. I really miss goto-definition etc. when I'm writing Jinja templates.

That being said, I've personally found Rust/HTMX to be a magnificent combo. I personally find writing backend endpoints in Rust to be no more cumbersome than any other language (after becoming comfortable with Rust)... and there's massive gains from the incredible tooling and type system.

I wonder if you've considered using Askama for your templates? It has a Axum integration that cleans up some of the boilerplate around template rendering. There's also an open PR for block fragments [1], which will make componentization of HTML fragments much easier, as discussed in this essay on the HTMX site [2].

We need more projects like this to demonstrate how useful, highly-interactive apps are made with HTMX. I'd encourage skeptics to try the same before writing it off.

[1] https://github.com/djc/askama/pull/824
[2] https://htmx.org/essays/template-fragments/
> that's the real loss here: any chance of governing this properly got blown up by incompetence

If this incident is representative, I'm not sure there was ever a possibility of good governance.
> I don't actually believe that there is an evil Microsoft master plan.

What planet are you living on?
What a wonderful way to cut headcount/expense and lock-in profitable margins on healthy annual revenue.

Can only work when you have the advantage of being the dominant product in the marketplace -- but I gotta hand it to the board, I couldn't have done it better myself.
This comment is factually incorrect. As part of the deal with OpenAI, Microsoft has access to all of the IP, model weights, etc.
Former infosec COO pleads guilty to attacking hospitals to drum up business
Speaking as someone who uses github multiple times a day, I think I've only actually noticed 1-2 downtimes in the past year. On the other hand, I've used several of the beta features that have come out, including copilot and the evolving github actions.

GitHub is stronger now then it ever has been.
A drug is something that gives relief in the short term and is not good in the long term.
Plenty of cowboys and prima ballerinas in tech as well.
List of fictional elements, materials, isotopes and subatomic particles
It's obvious. The guy is making the statement with a gun pointed to his head. He has no opportunity to defend himself.

Those guns are metaphorical of course but this is essentially what is going on:

Someone with a lot of power and influence is making him say this.
It's not open source at the moment, but we're definitely open to it.
If it can’t digest a math textbook and do equations, how would AGI be accomplished? So many problems are advanced mathematics.
> Mass producing non-repairable, cheap throwaway items is an excellent way for industries to externalize a lot of the lifecycle cost of an item onto society.

If you're against the externalization of costs, shouldn't you be advocating for measures that fully internalize such costs (eg. by charging a disposal fee at the point of sale), rather than merely trying to reduce it by making phones more repairable? That way consumers and manufacturers can decide for themselves whether the repairability is worth the extra cost or not.