skysight-inc/HackerNews huggingface dataset:
All those words, and yet the word template only appears once. And that's to assert that PHP has:

…no template system. There’s PHP itself, but nothing that acts as a big interpolator rather than a program.

As if that was a bug and not a feature. PHP succeeds because there is one PHP templating syntax and it is called "PHP".

PHP started life as a templating language, and that's where its soul lies. Which is important, because if a non-programmer wants to start editing dynamic HTML pages, most likely the first thing they open in their text editor will be a template. And if a customer wants to change the website, but doesn't want to pay a highly-trained programmer (we're very expensive, especially because none of us really wants to be paid to edit templates all day), they'll hire someone who knows how to edit the theme. For every seasoned programmer in the world, there are half a dozen themers who know how to edit HTML and CSS, and maybe how to embed a "foreach" loop that calls a stock WordPress function, or edit an argument list, or swap one Drupal function name for another. And for every themer there's a dozen non-programmers who dream of knowing enough to be themers.

This class of user is what every other platform tends to neglect. Ruby and Python programmers tend to design tools that are intuitive to other programmers. We build "frameworks", where one must tinker and monkey-patch and fork to such a degree that only another programmer can download and assemble a working system, let alone customize it. (One word: Gemfiles.) We write programmer-centric documentation filled with jargon terms from Javaschool, like "object". (PHP themers often do not understand OO, and often don't need to. This, all by itself, could be why PHP is so popular.) But one leaves a lot of money on the table when one designs software systems exclusively for users whose programming education entitles them to six-figure salaries. There aren't enough such people on earth; that's why they earn six-figure salaries.

Designing the minimum viable product for borderline-non-programmers who want to tinker with dynamic web pages is hard work, though. PHP evolved into that niche, but if you don't start there it's hard to steer there deliberately. For me, trying to remember when object inheritance and version control and function definitions were mysterious is like trying to remember when I didn't understand algebra. (And, believe me, I really didn't understand, once. But I'll be damned if I can remember why not.) It's so hard to keep one's eye on that ball that even the PHP developers lost the plot long ago: PHP has long since bulked up with features borrowed from other languages. But if you ignore its newer features the soul of PHP is still a little templating language that you can edit into the HTML on your server; change a filename extension and reload and you're good to go. And, the thing is: You can write a crazy-complicated core system in PHP, but then expose it as an API at the template layer, and those tinkerers hacking at the HTML on their servers will be able to use it.
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IMO that wasn't rude at all? :)

Anyway, I'd even argue it's mostly just the 27M users and the brand. While smart founders and engineers knowing a thing or two about scale are much less common than <code for a photo sharing app>, it's the users and the brand that made it worth $1B to Facebook.
>But the converse is also true: sufficiently talented coders >can write great applications in terrible languages, too. >It's a painful lesson, but an important one.

>Why fight it? I say learn to embrace it.

I'd say life is too short to write in terrible languages. Yes, PHP was once the language of choice and now that it glorious days are beginning to set, I don't think a little PHP bashing is too inappropriate.

Speaking of PHP popularity, are there any notable startups that launched recently (<1 year) that used PHP? Given the popularity of Rails, Django, Node etc. it feels completely dead. On that side note, let me get back to my Java Server Pages assignment in college (I'm not even kidding).
"there are so many better choices"

This is absolutely true, assuming you're working on a blue-sky project or some niche purpose-built app. For the rest of the web, other available languages are (currently) missing one or more of the following:

- A wide selection of CMS's to choose from

- A wide selection of CRM's to choose from

- A wide selection of development frameworks to choose from

- commodity hosting environments ready to roll with little or no server configuration required

Declaring the choice of PHP over some other back-end language negligent in all cases is misguided.
Not to be overly sensitive, but I believe the term "Orientals" is derogatory. Even if used in jest, you wouldn't use something like the "N" word casually (http://www.lifeintheusa.com/people/asians.htm). Just pointing this out for the sake of clean conversation.
I don't know why that site says that, or what your revenue has to do with your choice of credit card. Amex doesn't know what your revenues are.
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I've been to some conference lately and next to me was a guy sitting excited about the high traffic system he's building—I asked about the language he is using:

He (playing with his iPad 3): PHP

Me: I thought PHP devs died out for years??

He (angry): PHP is still the most used language for the web and it's fast.

Me: Do you guys still mix front-end and back-end code?

He (still angry): Of course not.

Back home I started googling "PHP" and "PHP frameworks" for the first time since 2003 again. I was surprised: there are many Rails-inspired frameworks like Yii, Zend, Codigniter, etc. And I tried to be objective giving PHP another chance (I haven't an actual use for PHP but I was just bored and wanted to be prepared for better counterattacks next time).

My impressions:

- There seem to be too many frameworks or call them ecosystems, so I couldn't figure out which is the dominating one (Zend?). And I am not sure if they are really interoperable

- Not relevant but awkward: most frameworks websites (except Yii) and in particular the PHP site look like 2003. What disturbed most was the often used claim "no console needed".

- On Freelancer.com, Monster or any other job-related site the quantity of postings for PHP devs were massive—any other web-related fraemwork/language else like Ruby, Python, Django was a small fraction oft that.

After looking at some "modern" PHP code (which strictly follow the MVC patterns now) I still couldn't get warm with PHP. I assume that most PHP devs are long-time PHP devs and I don't understand how PHP can attract people compared to newer concepts.
It easier to write an optimizer if you don't use eval since the eval code needs an interpreter.
I think what makes it confusing for me is that the link between the pictures isn't hugely clear. If it could be more clear that there's actually a meeting taking place, it could be easier to make the link. ie. have some similar object or other attribute in each that assists the mind in forming a connection.
Rationality =/= objectivism.

(At least, not in the context of LessWrong: http://lesswrong.com/lw/31/what_do_we_mean_by_rationality/ )
The argument there is that your tests are telling you that your code has the wrong structure, so if you need to be getting at private methods in your tests, those private methods could be public methods on some delegatee you inject into the class under test.

I'm not convinced this is universally applicable, but I'm otherwise sympathetic to it.
sad truth: i have seen start-ups with not-so-impressive ideas get so much funding and press. It all comes down to your connections and who is behind the scene...
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I've developed large applications in PHP for years. Currently we're using other languages at my current company for a couple of reasons. They could have coded the exact same thing in PHP and I doubt it would have taken them any longer. The language isn't great but I never found myself truly fighting it just displeased with some of the syntax.

Facebook started with PHP they weren't always the massive company they are today and managed to displace other entrenched social networks.
Time savings? How's downloading the entire feature set for content creation, categorization,user management & authentication, and menuing in 45 seconds stack up to arsing around in a text editor setting up your file structure for a new development project?
Are you serious? PHP is not "tray full of old rusty instruments". Please give me one concrete example what is wrong with a blog running on PHP. Or a small store? How is the END result differ between say Magento or something running on Django? Could you tell the difference? No, you could not. And while the PHP version would have been up and ready, you would still try to figure out how to properly run WSGI server in shared hosting.

Good luck with your endeavors.
> There is a bitter irony in how the technology that was supposed to bring us to a Friedmanite border-less world is also propelling us towards an Orwellian one where the power brokers can achieve omnipotence and force projection without, eventually, requiring the buy-in of a single human being.

I disagree with this. You are still free not to use technology even in an "Orwellian regime". The Internet hasn't made things worse. Would you rather live in a country with no Internet at all or a country with their own Internet?
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Or your clients find it easier to find suitable PHP developers in which case you are doing them a disservice using anything else.

PHP isn't a good language but it's not so bad to be unusable. I think you're really overstating the problems with it.
The article claims that YouTube is written in PHP. As someone who worked there, I can tell you it's not. YouTube is written mostly in Python plus some Go. Some of it is a mess, but that's beside the point.
That's exactly what this was. That's why he bought them a day after they closed a $50 million investment Zuckerberg freaked out about Instagram's plans to become much bigger, especially now that they just launched on Android, too.
I'll be interested to see what happens with Pinterest (also Django).
I agree with every single point here and I work with PHP for a day job. It's a horribly designed language that could be so much better. That said, it does get a bad reputation for bad code when it is very much possible to write good code in PHP. But yes, it has huge flaws. There are more jobs in PHP where I am, however, than languages like Ruby or Python, sadly. At home, I never use PHP. Python all the way. :-)
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Sorry to hijack the thread, but are you planning on raising the 5 person cap? We are an eight person distributed team, and gotomeeting only allows 6 cameras at a time, so the last two people to the meeting are always getting ignored. I would happily accept a lower quality feed if we could get 10+ people in a single room.
It's at either end of a set of values?
I do. I've run FreeBSD on a SunFire and on an old Thinkpad, and I currently run a Go web server under Plan 9 on that old Thinkpad. It's easy, just start the server and point your domain name at it. Since I've got a dynamic IP, I have a cron job to update it every day--it's just a personal page, so it doesn't really matter if it's unavailable for a little while every few months.
It's a hard problem, if not impossible based on its conditions: that which makes PHP easy for beginners make it hard for anyone to use well.

The ease of php (as mentioned repeatedly) is that you get global access to hundreds of functions. If you know how to call a function, you can probably hack together what you're trying to do. Others (python, ruby, go) are meant for more mature applications because real problems are not that simple. You "have to" do imports and write more boilerplate, but it's also more explicit as to what's happening in the context of HTTP and enables and encourages better design.

I feel like it's a compromise and I think creating something new that is as well thought out as Go but as simple as `<?php header("Location: http://google.com) ?>` would be difficult to do. See other things like PHP: JSP, etc.
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For development, yes. For paying customers or a business, no way.
I am going to guess "no". For three people to scale a site to that size, I imagine it was a daily battle just to keep the thing flying. Not to mention, if they ran into a problem that could potentially be solved with some deep magic done on a forked OSS project... or another ten extra large instances, given their valuation I can imagine which direction they would lean.
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I've done this several times with Perl. It wasn't difficult. The template was a blob of TT in a __DATA__ block at the end of the script.

Deploying as PSGI would take, like, three lines of nginx configuration and wrapping the bulk of the script in a function.
They have an interpreted version of HipHop as well. Can't use the PHP interpreter due to a couple added features (python-esque yield is the only one I know of)
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I think it'd be more accurate to say "Even /fairly large/ web companies can now be built [et cetera]". Good luck putting Google on AWS. Or (relevant to the name of this website) AWS.
I've run a server at home for years. Mostly for SSH access to my old catalogue of email and to do some remote coding when at work. It also served as a website host for small scripts.. Which is about all you can do on a home connection.

For the handful of hosted sites that I manage and a version of Roundcube that connects to my mail provider - I use a VPS. Gandi is good.
I wonder if that's only true because we as a society don't (yet) hold people accountable for the code they write, in the way we hold them accountable for the bridges they build or the cars they manufacture?

I wonder what the costs of, say, the Gawker password database breach were? Or perhaps the Sony DRM rootkit on CDs? (Or Apples unpatched Java bug?)

What if the people who wrote and/or deployed the code knew (before they shipped/installed it) that they were going to be held responsible for the costs of any future failures? My guess is we'd then have training and certification and insurance, and professional organisations rising up to certify people as being skilled enough to qualify for insurance for themselves and/or their companies. Much like "Engineers" (who's titles the software industry loves to assume) or "Pilots".

I can torture the "Pilots" analogy further - much like you can do very little training to get a car license, perhaps you'd be allowed to write software that affects only a few people at once, your family and friends, perhaps a colleague or two, even occasionally a stranger, but never more than 6 or 7 other people at once. If you want to store data for more than 6 or 7 people, you need a different class of license - a mini bus license for a dozen or two, then a full bus license, then a train or passenger jet license...

Who _should_ be held responsible for a website's password database getting compromised? At what stage in the progression from "shared GoDaddy hosted out-of-date-wordpress blog about my cat" to "Gawker network with a million or so login credentials inadequately secured" do we draw the line and say "Here is the line in the sand across which more care needs to be taken, and lines of responsibility drawn up and accepted"?

'Cause _surely_ there _should_ be that line somewhere, right?
1990 C90

2000 C99

2011 C11

so, if this is the trend expect a new C standard in 2022.
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I do, but just for web development and in-house apps.

It's possible to run a website from your home but there is a lot to consider..

- Does your ISP allow this?
- Do you have enough upload bandwidth to deal with your expected load?
- Do you have a static IP address (otherwise you can host your DNS elsewhere and use a Dynamic DNS program to update it)

So it's possible but unless it's something that's not that important, I wouldn't bother. You miss out on a lot of the standard features of dedicated hosting providers such as redundant power, multiple redundant uplinks and hardware support.
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Only a couple of these things are outright wrong; I removed the offending bullet points earlier tonight. A few things I listed because they're weird, not outright wrong, and I stand by those.

For the most part you've defended PHP's behavior as design decisions or offered workarounds. Workarounds just demonstrate that the language is Turing-complete. Design decisions are only okay if they actually make a useful tradeoff; these generally do not.

I can give you individual responses if you really want, but I suspect you won't be swayed no matter what I say. I will comment:

PHP doesn't need a module system? What? Once your program consists of more than two files, you're going to want to import stuff from one into the other in a structured manner.
I have a feeling you've gotten so used to deploying PHP that you've forgotten all the headaches involved in it. I idle in about 3 irc channels that provide PHP support, and pretty much every day someone comes in with some deployment related problem. Someone will come in complaining that they can't read some file (the user apache is running as can't traverse into that directory), complain about some missing function (did you install gd? -> show how to get phpinfo -> show how to install gd -> show how to modify php.ini to enable it -> show how to restart apache), or just general errors on their server (is your error reporting on? -> figure out what error reporting is locally -> figure out what error reporting is remotely -> explain how to change the setting -> etc.)

I'd consider myself a seasoned PHP dev and it always takes me a few hours to figure out what happened when I get the white screen of death.

XAMPP isn't any sort of solution to this, because not all servers are configured in the same way that XAMPP is (and the fact that they compile in most packages doesn't help).

Developers at a local makerspace did a project last year using PHP, and even though there were tons of very smart guys, mostly everybody we brought onto the project took a whole afternoon to get set up. To me that's unacceptable.

Understanding how to set up virtualenv isn't trivial for a beginner, but that doesn't stop a beginner from jumping into my python projects with no pain. All they need is to get easy_install (which is included in all distros I've seen) and do a git/hg pull (both probably also available from distro). The rest can be handled by a shell script in the repo that grabs pip+virtualenvwrapper, sets up the virtualenv and installs all the required packages. Then you tell them "if you need to work on this project, just type `workon projectname`", and with that they're ready to start hacking.
So why do they think that isolation from the internet will make things safer for them?
I feel a bit guilty that my negative post is the top post, instead of a post discussing Mosh itself, most especially considering that Keith's responses throughout this thread have been quite elucidative and creditable. However I still think we should approach something as fundamental and important as remote access to our machines with great caution -- I'll be sticking with the tools tried and tested for years (and recommended by those I trust) for the foreseeable future.

That said, Mosh does seem pretty interesting, -- and by golly, considering the terrible 3G speeds I get on my Android phone and how often the 'connectbot' app acts up, I will surely be giving this a try when I get time later this week.
As pointed out in the comments there, 2 years is not really a big enough window to identify a "major" startup.
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Omeprazole has been about for nearly quarter of a century; and is fairly well understood - hell I can walk down to my local drug store and pick up a load from the shelves.

You say this like it follows.

I can too. I can read the label as well, which says to take it for no more than 28 days "without the advice of a doctor." Presumably this is the period for which it's been studied.

The idea of doing a double-blind study of the various systemic effects of a decade of induced achlorhydria is... absurd. How can you say it's understood? It's not understood, at all, either by my standards or yours.

So, without perfect information - I decide. I don't like the fact that all my ancestors for 100 million years had HCl in their guts, and I don't. I do like the fact that I'm not in the process of getting Barrett's esophagus and my abdomen doesn't hurt all the time.

Weighing risks and deciding without perfect information: fact of life. Trying to outlaw this process: like legislating that pi equals 3. Classic failure mode of the utopian 20th century.
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It's obvious that scarmig is parodying the comments Ruslan makes in the article and thus using the term "Orientals" to criticise and not in his/her own voice. Well perhaps it's not obvious to hyper-ventilating PC police so intent on keeping things "clean" you write a post attacking someone who likely agrees with you..

Edit:
You were on the right track when you said "not to be overly sensitive" because even with your misinterpretation of scarmig you were still aware that you were being an annoying whiner.
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