The religious wars over the interpretation of languages needs some serious self-reflection.

There is so much confusion between a language and a framework. Blindingly.

The religions of one language compare their experience, due to a framework, with another language without using a framework.

How does this make sense?

As a non day to day PHP developer:

- The Web, as a platform is relatively a baby, compared to platforms like PCs, going back to mainframes.

- I feel for too many devs, the relationship to production code that is more than a few years old seems foreign, especially to those who have joined the Web in the past 5 to 7 years.

- Most languages used on the web, were not designed for the Web, first. Instead, most languages have a framework to extend a language to the Web.

On Languages:

- Having seen sites built without a framework in many languages leads me to wonder: Why do we act horrified at old code? It seems reasonable that our old ways of thinking would improve, maybe even be expected for the level of intelligence on hn.

- Most languages now a days have capable Web frameworks. Instead of focusing on advocating for the use of a framework, we keep the discussion at a much more surface level, like which language.

- Language is merely syntax. Granted some languages are interpreted to be more eloquent/elegant/efficient than others. Yet the language we all speak, English is the most universal and in a way quite hacked up. Yet we don't take any upfront to bash fellow developers instead of supporting the use of frameworks today so in 5 years, the next batch of people who know lots don't look back and find less fault in todays perfection.

- I'm at a loss to try and argue one language is the way. It isn't. Nor is one framework. But if your language of choice is not natively made for the Web, make sure you use a framework. Add a beginner it might be one kind, advanced developers can likely pick something else.

- A mess can be made in every language. What's our point, really, when we can't see the forest while so obsessed with the trees?

On Code:

- All code older than a year starts to become legacy.

- I'm not sure if we really understand old code was often written with less foresight than we have today. It didn't make the tools obsolete, as much as old thinking obsolete.

- There will be new things coming out all the time, few last. As much as it's fun to go on a language witch hunt, we have our own skeletons waiting for us as our projects live on longer and longer.

- with the Web in it's infancy, is be surprised if 30% of developers have a relationship with 10 year old code at all let alone with code that still is in use on the Web. It's great that we can do things the new way, but we'll always have a growing history of code to maintain a relationship with.

- PHP might suck along with a lot of other languages, but I hope we consider whether the lens we live we see ourselves thought couldn't use some improvement.

On Frameworks:

- Every problem someone had with a language is more likely a problem with not having used a framework, instead of the language itself.

- For those learning coding, learn it from someone who had good habits and thought processes, those are the things that are the most important to have as the language de jour makes it's rounds. Having the transferable skills of decently evolving application design between languages and frameworks will forever leaving.

From where I see it, most languages now have capable frameworks, and all languages have capable developers. Please stop the witch hunts. The amount of vile filth spread about others preferences compared to your preferences based on 10 year old experience and hearsay of a particular language to this developer, is akin to believing and propagating a nasty stereotype about a particular culture or nationality without learning for yourself. It's not that much different than being that ignant.

Developers, let's continue discussing, but more importantly educating and spreading the wisdom of good practices in all the communities we participate in so there's more of us.

Let's spend less time talking trash about others based in hearsay, interpretation and preferences in language, and instead build stuff people want, because we really can make the world a better place with software.

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