skysight-inc/HackerNews huggingface dataset:
Dustin, I still stand by the original work. Notice I've changed three things on the site: a slightly grey header, non-bordered links, and a square logo.

Also it was FAR from a pixel-for-pixel exact duplication. Spacing around the site is still different, as is the font and font sizing.

I think you should realize you overreacted a bit. It was simply an experiment and a way to give back to the community.
I don't think building an open clone of a closed platform is a bad thing, but using the same name is a bit of a dick move.

Suggested new name: Gavche
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Is the gimp a copy of photoshop? Is linux a copy of bsd?

Making a Free replacement or, more awesome, a better product is worthy of the adulation of your peers.

When Microsoft China copied the layout of whatever website it was we all came down on them from our principled pinnacles though, didn't we?
If you look at both versions it should be clear what I mean with rip-off. I don't care if you implement the "ideas panel" or whatever yourself.

But if I you take the design and make your version look the same, then it's a rip-off. Yes, you modified it. But please put both versions next to each other and tell me they don't look like each other. As long as you don't have an original design it's a rip-off for me.
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> Please take this site down and delete the Github repository. The work isn't yours.

Any semi-competent programmer can reproduce it within a day or two(the OP did it in a shorter span of time). That won't help, and you aren't entitled to what you think you are.

And the work is totally his. The design was too similar, but still, its his work. He didn't steal your css or images, and though you might feel rough about it, it doesn't make it theft as you are putting it again and again.

> Just wait until Svbtle is finished and open to the public. The reason it's closed is really simple: it's not ready yet.

Great for people who want to blog on Svbtle. If I don't and I like the idea, I am going to implement it and use it. I am glad we don't live in a world where you or anyone else can stop me from doing it.

The hard part was coming up with the original concept and design - kudos to you for the great work. Reproducing it is easy, and I don't think you have any right to stop me from doing it.

As another commenter pointed out, we don't actually want a world where Apple says MS stole its windows.
Even if it copied material from the original, it would not be theft. It would be copyright infringement.
My intuition is if people can get away with piracy, they will do it.

- SaaS is good as piracy is not a big problem.

Small/Medium Enterprise don't see a huge benefit of paying for Technology. Its both a mindset and a cost issue.

We do Tax Returns, so we see how margins are quite low for most Indian Businesses. Paying for software that can be pirated easily might tip them to a loss.

Software cost isn't factored in as a cost of doing business.
> Again and again, this topic keeps coming up and the surprising truth is: paper is the answer. Don't discount it.

Paper is good, but clay tablets FTW.
> this just isn't nice

Maybe if Dustin were a nice guy, your argument would have some validity.
The SIM card is so you CAN easily change your identity / phone. Without a SIM, how does the network verify your identity? A simple username and password are not as secure, and tying your identity to your phone is exactly what SIM cards were introduced to avoid.
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...mocking the original creator is not.

Where did Nate mock Dustin, or even speak negatively about him? Reading his post I find only one mildly negative comment:

"I felt Dustin missed out on what have been a great open source contribution."
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There is a difference between taking an idea and a design. Put the versions next to each other and tell me they don't look like the same.
Good catch, yes; I hadn't intended to imply otherwise.
I'd even prefer Drawar, if they didn't stretch video objects beyond the implied margins of posts.
You might enjoy reading about the difficulties Thomas Thwaites had in building something as simple as a toaster from scratch:

http://www.thetoasterproject.org/
there is something called "ethics" and "politeness". when you choose companions and collaborators, these are quite important values, obviously, the guy haven't heard of these words and obviously working with a person like that is not fun, you will then feel ashamed when he does something like this as a part of your team.
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I'm afraid if we kill SIM cards, the opposite will happen: your phone will be locked to one network, and switching networks means switching hardware (beyond just the sim).
I really like that while traveling I can just buy a local sim, put it in my own phone, and use it. That would only work in these wireframes if all operators would agree to support this. Which I think they won't.
I like Dustin's design better, but DAMN.. he clearly borrowed from there :) I don't see a problem here, and I would feel flattered if I were Dustin (or Paul Scrivens).
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I think this is only "not nice" because of the dcurtis's reaction. He could have very easily just replied "Cute." to this thread and accepted the flattery/parody. No one is arguing that "obtvse" is a better product than his own.

For instance, the author of http://drawar.com/ is clearly flattered by dcurtis's own use of his design.
While Kindle touch won't run a year on AAA batteries, it's not that far away of it. Based on my calculations I'd guesstimate that Kindle should run at least a month with 2xAAA batteries (assuming same "multiplier" that WikiReader uses, 90 hours = 1 year => 10 hours = 1 month). I'd argue that it's good enough.
I assumed that's why he got the name wrong. He edited it after I wrote the comment, I suppose it was a genuine mistake.

Still doesn't change how I feel about this. He could have opensourced the engine on itself, taking the design as well is a blatant ripoff.

Another thing is this:
The goal is simple: when you see the Svbtle design, you should know that the content is guaranteed to be great.

By stealing the design, he is completely boycotting Dustin at making this vision of his come true.
Except that it's not an impossibility. There's no fundamental reason that we can't build electrically powered ornithopters. In fact, we've already built human powered ones.[1]

The description alone does not invalidate this. The concept doesn't invalidate it. If a science editor did dismiss this out of hand (without viewing the video), then I'd argue that they'd be far more unqualified to do their job than if they didn't.

The kinds of problems you have to deal with to make something like this aren't really documented on the guys website. That's a fairly good indicator that they've not actually done it. They came up with a fairly believable design concept (although never go into detail), but the control systems required to turn a man flapping their arm with accelerometers into something that can fly are very non-trivial.

There are a number of challenges you'd have to face before you could make something like this for real. Most would be control and aerodynamic related. Once you start flapping wings, things get very complicated very quickly. Most ornithopters that have been flown in the past have used fairly simple wing designs coupled with quite conventional airframe construction. The stability considerations for the kind of wing that this guy claimed to have made would be pretty horrendous. We've made big advances in active stability recently though, and the hardware required is very much a commodity now.

[1]: http://hpo.ornithopter.net/?q=content/the-project
on your edit: pixel-for-pixel? Are you kidding? That would be hard to do in an html document even if it was your goal.

Not only that, but I saw the original, and it wasn't.

You have inverted the moral terrain, and you are now going to have to defend your own credibility / honesty when you are leveling those same accusations at someone else.
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As I understand it, datomic sacrifices write availability by serialising all writes through a single server.
There's a name for this: Cargo Cult - copying behaviour without understanding why it exists in the first place. It's a part of human nature, even apes do it (they copy your very moves if they like you). Since we still do it, I suspect it has benefitted us during our previous evolution, and perhaps it still makes sense sometimes.
And you should realize that you took Dustin's idea, whereas he probably thought about it for a long time, and you in 5mn you make a snapshot, modify few colors, change the font and declare it's your "personnal design" now. What a shame. And I'm not a Dustin's fan, few hours ago when I read his disclaimer for svbtle saying that it was for genius people blah blah blah. I told myself "what a d*", but I also thought that the design of his site is brillant.
When the technical entry level to join the competition is too low, you _should_ expect clones.

Copyright holds automatically on all the code, but just the idea of that kind of blog can't be considered a sufficient "level of creativity" to deserve copyright protection.
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dcurtis' version is generally more attractive in my opinion, and honestly nwienert's site as a whole is less attractive than Dustin's.

Even if it is copyright infringement, at least there's that I suppose.
Copying ideas or products happens all the time. Some make a lot of cash with it:
http://www.techberlin.com/post/19732590058/true-story-the-sa...
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Ted talk with Yves, lacking a bit in technical detail but worth a watch.
http://www.ted.com/talks/yves_rossy_fly_with_the_jetman.html
How can it be right to forbid denying anything whatsoever? That is thought crime pure and simple. Just because an "international jurisdiction" "recognised" it, doesn't mean a) they got it right and b) new evidence may not come up thus calling for a re-assessment of the whole thing. History is science, nothing is undeniable in science.
It's hardly the most complex of designs; looking at this and comparing it to yours, he inherits the basic layout (which isn't really revolutionary) but doesn't have the complexity and flashiness - which seems to me the critical portion of the design.

As to writing it.. you made a fairly big splashy announcement about this great new concept in blogging, and then made it invitation only. That's guaranteed to get push back from the community, especially one that considers ideas only good for execution!

It seems fairly simple to implement - you might claim some moral ownership of the concept, but that probably won't hold up well, either, in this community.

This is community that lives on the maxim of "release early and iterate", we're not always looking for a slick finished product. So now you have competition; may the best product win!

(It may seem cruel, Dustin, but you do have an attitude - and that seems to have grated on people. So, maybe this gives you an experience of the same feeling. Just saying.)

EDIT: Dustin's edited response is interesting; as a programmer I probably don't set as much store by the elements of design as he (naturally) does - simple things don't represent a creative element, to me in the same way. Which is interesting food for thought.

Hopefully Nate will continue to move his design away from Dustin's
Pretty much this. In fact, it's already happening to some extent -- most Verizon phones are sold without a SIM. (At least, not a user-accessible SIM.)
You are right when considering an individual. When you consider a group of people, the probability that all of them saw the vandalized version on Wikipedia site goes down as the number of people increase. With the offline version, it stays the same.

If you consider the case of disadvantaged children whom some of these projects aim to reach, the whole peer group now has the same vandalized information and there may not be a secondary source of information.
Nobody is telling you any such thing. Did you actually read the article?

I wrote nothing about stupidity or ignorance or lack of sophistication, etc. The issue is one of market failure based on massive information asymmetry, and I walk through reasons based on economic theory why these risks are far greater with crowdfunding than ordinary investing.

The primary reason goes back to why the SEC requires registration in the first place: If most people's investments are small, none of us will have enough skin in the game to have the kind of negotiating leverage to demand true transparency and accountability from the company. If I invest $1,000, it would be lunacy to spend more than a couple hours on the whole thing, let along monitoring it over time. If a VC invests $10 million, you better believe it will conduct exhaustive due diligence and demand rigorous governance and information rights, including putting someone on the Board of Directors. Those are really the two extremes.

Read the article. Really read it with an open mind, and you'll see the challenges posted by principal-agent problems, moral hazard, adverse selection, and potentially the ability of crowdfunding issuers to require a waiver of class actions, collectively make it an incredibly risky proposition.
Design, especially good design, is hard work. I totally understand a designer being frustrated when their work is copied, even if that copying is reverse-engineered rather than just cut and paste of the css.

Personally, I think the design is ugly and hard to use. The OP (of Obtvse thread) should get a designer and make some much needed changes.

Edit: Downvoters - is it because I said design is hard work, or because I said I thought the design was ugly?
This

I travel enough to see the benefits as well. Phones that handle multiple sim cards are also nice.

I also view it as an added layer of security. My phone can't be connected to the network until the pin for my sim is entered. The ability to save data to the sim is also a nice feature. I don't really see any reason for them to go away.
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But you will pay outrageous roaming charges. Why should you? Would you accept roaming charges on Wi-Fi access when abroad?
From Nate's twitter feed: "Become good at cheating and you'll never need to become good at anything else."

Pretty much sums it up.
That would be smart!
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A username and password is secure enough for things more important than this.
doe88:
thats how economy and innovation works dude.
people see stuff, they like it, they make it better (or different).

these discussions only happen for it products. can't see mr. porsche complaining about enzo ferrari (when still alive... yea. those were the days!).
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There is always a tendency by people to place more content on the frontpage or above the fold to give it 'more attention'. This is a fallacy.

An extra column clutters the homepage and adds no functionality to what a simple click on 'new' (which is the most important link, right next to the brand name) would also do.

If it is the case that too few good articles arrive on the homepage, since everyone is ignoring the new ones, then the algorithm should be changed. But I don't think that is the case at all.

As an extra, I like reading HN on my mobile phone. And with the current one column design this works very neatly. An extra column would complicate that. You might handle that with CSS media queries, but I still think it wouldn't be elegant.
The point is, I'm not trying to build a brand, make money off this, or prove anything whatsoever. It was really just an experiment... to see how quickly I could do it and to see how people would react (and to make some good open source software).

Notice the name, "obtuse".. But I am glad I got this response, it's been both entertaining and enlightening!
Maybe asking first might have been polite, is that a thing? :/
It's behaviour like this that leads people/companies to seek the protection of software patents.

Thanks for totally muddying the water, crossing the line, breaking an unwritten rule and not being a "team player".

You quite simply suck.
Each phone could have a built in key for signing. You could tell operators to not allow any other phone except for yours (which has this key) to access your account. Not a problem.
Awesome scrolling effect (using css3 transformations)
I don't see what sim cards have to do with locking in customers. Even in his hypothetical sim-free future there is nothing preventing the carrier from saying "if you select this plan you must pay us $59/month for the next 2 years before we let you cancel".
The same name? The original is "Svbtle".
/s/Indian/Indonesian and I just written an article about Indonesia.
but think about the children! ;)
The role of propaganda was something that Orwell was interested in:

"propaganda in some form or other lurks in every book, that every work of art has a meaning and a purpose — a political, social and religious purpose — that our aesthetic judgements are always coloured by our prejudices and beliefs"

http://orwell.ru/library/articles/frontiers/english/e_front
When I have an idea, no matter how developed, I throw it into the ideas pane.
This creates a physical scrapboard for organizing my thoughts. I work on ideas
over time, and, when one of them becomes developed or good enough, I'll
publish it and it'll move over into the published column.

This is so important. I’ve been using SimpleNote to the same effect. I just handle the publishing part separately; I publish so rarely that it doesn’t make sense for me to couple the two together.
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Other market factors since dwarfed these technical
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We can all appreciate the pleasure Dustin got from perfecting his Svbtle design. His perfection of the authoring flow. Perfection is when there is nothing left to take out, after all.

We can all thank Dustin for showing it to us so early.

And we can all imagine how he wanted to build a quality brand with it, partly by vouching for the quality of those who use it.

You could imagine that monetisation might have been in there too - a startup!

We like startups here; we all applaud.

We mustn't let Obtvse cheapen that.
Very odd to see this here; my mother works in that bookshop. I remember her telling me how the phones were constantly ringing for the whole week after that first ad was put in the paper, with everybody wanting that damn poster and nobody interested in any books at all.

It's a great place as well, with all the old railway station trappings around (there's even more in the publicly inaccessible bits at the back) and worth a visit (modulo disclosure of personal interest etc).
um.... I have a very strong feeling that I saw this in a font book back when I was in Art College, in the late 90's.

I should clarify, I'm not implying it's a copy, or an unoriginal idea. I'm just saying out loud that I "think" I've seen this before.
I guess that's what I meant by "good faith". I think making a nigh identical open copy of someone's work is easily predictable to be unpleasant for many people. In plenty of situations (esp on HN and its environs) this is not the case, you can have a reasonable expectation that the person whose work you've been "inspired" by would approve, maybe grudgingly.

I think that in this particular situation, dcurtis's reaction could have been predicated to be at best ambivalent. Thus, choosing to take the liberty of going ahead I consider as "not nice".

Those are about the strongest terms with which I can condemn it though. In another reply to my comment zackattack mentions dcurtis himself isn't nice. That may be the case (although I've seen his name plenty, I'm having enough trouble connecting it to specific writings that I can't agree or disagree), but the crucial issue to determining whether this project is "nice" or not, is whether it was reasonable to expect this action to hurt dcurtis. It clearly did, and since I think that was a plausible outcome, I am uncomfortable with this undertaking.
Oh. Whoops. Now I feel very silly indeed. I'm not sure how I misread it that badly.

(Clone away.)
I partially address this issue in a reply to drewblaisdell.
Replication is an easy enough task for anyone competent with Photoshop or CSS/HTML. Copying his design idea is where the issue lies.

If it took more hours, would it be a bigger reason to backtrack?
@asto you are missing the point. Piracy is obviously a big problem. But it is a problem in practically every country. The issue here is that in India it is hard to sell technology products (SaaS or otherwise) because Indian businesses are unable to comprehend what technology can do for them. It boils down to the competence of the tech managers/evaluators at these orgs. Some of them are poor and they don't even know it.