Thanks for this, ok...

>> The largest assumption that seems to be behind your position is that society should not have recreational drugs. Is this correct?

> not necessarily. as alcohol was/is still very common where i grew up, it doesn't mean that the mere availability is a problem in itself. it was more the attitude about it.

So if the risks were mitigated (can never be eliminated) you would be okay(-ish) with drugs other than alcohol being used? Assuming good role models, etc. it's fine if you say no, we'll disagree but I will at least understand your position and I will respect it.

> but for a stressed single parent,

An aside, I assure you a parent doesn't have to be single to be stressed, in fact it can be more dangerous to have two stressed parents.

>> compared the risks of horseriding with MDMA and found that MDMA was safer

> safer for whom?

Well, for the user of the drug or the equine.

> the issue here is that apart from personal injury, horseriding has no side-effects or longterm consequences.

The whole point is about personal injury! And how that can ripple out to affect others.

> the consequences can affect a lot of people. horseriding just doesn't go out of hand, or become addictive. like skiing or some other sports. you just can hurt yourself, that's all.

With respect I don't think that is anywhere close to reflecting what the paper said:

"The dangers of equasy were revealed to me as a result of a
recent clinical referral of a woman in her early 30’s who had
suffered permanent brain damage as a result of equasy-induced
brain damage. She had undergone severe personality change
that made her more irritable and impulsive, with anxiety and
loss of the ability to experience pleasure. There was also a
degree of hypofrontality and behavioural disinhibition that
had lead to many bad decisions in relationships with poor
choice of partners and an unwanted pregnancy. She is unable
to work and is unlikely ever to do so again [my emphasis],
so the social costs
of her brain damage are also very high."

further

"I suspect most people will be surprised that riding is
such a dangerous activity. The data are quite startling – people
die and are permanently damaged from falling – with neck and
spine fracture leading to permanent spinal injury.
Head injury is four times more com-
mon though often less obvious and is the usual cause of death.
In the USA, approximately 11,500 cases of traumatic head
injury a year are due to riding (Thomas, et al., 2006), and we
can presume a proportionate number in the UK."

I also knew a girl many years ago who was a rider, whose horse spooked, reared up and fell backwards onto her, breaking her back. Fortunately this wasn't a wheelchair-forever case, but she was off work for months and would have back problems for the rest of her life.

I know many more eg. MDMA users than horseriders, and I've never seen any injury, never mind something so severe as this.

If you objected to drugs, it has to be on a rational basis of risk, and by that measure the papers point was, we are not measuring and responding to risk proportionately.

> absolutely. i think stress is a huge risk factor. and that's where avoiding drugs and alcohol completely brings its benefits. i am in a stressful situation now, and i find my ways to cope, but because i grew up without alcohol and never tried it before i am not at all tempted to try it now.

That is your decision and it is therefore the correct decision for you, but but do you think it is the correct decision for everybody? If you did, it's possible we might have less adverse outcomes, but you would also take away the ability to make choices for themselves, where it doesn't risk hurting other people. It's not a society want to be in. Also what is right for you may not be workable for others.

> the same goes for any potentially addictive behavior like gambling. but since it was mentioned in the initial question, i'd like to talk about phone/internet addiction a bit...but i don't know what they will do when they get old enough and are able to spend their own money.

I honestly don't know. It's possible giving them a small allowance to buy online stuff might help them manage things, or it might feed a possible addiction. Perhaps you can ask around on parents forums?

>>> and where we were generally educated in school to avoid that stuff.

>> I'm uncomfortable because you're trying to make up other people's minds for them.

> i want to give kids good rolemodels, and show them that drugs or alcohol are not needed to have a good time.

That may be true for you but are you willing to project and enforce that attitude onto other people? Because you certainly don't need them to have a good time, but they can really bloody help! Please also consider that not only people differ, but situations differ and that needs to be accounted for. I have a delightful range of physical and mental health problems, and when I go out, which is sadly not often, I really need to make it count, to stop myself deteriorating further mentally. What an option for you isn't necessarily optional for other people.

> if as a society we want to reduce the number of people affected by alcohol or drug abuse, we need to educate our children to that effect. that's the schools job. to educate according to social consensus.

But what should be the social consensus, your position or mine or something else? That's what I'm trying to understand, it's the absolute crux of why we are discussing this.

> ... also requires relying on facts and true statistics and not allow hardliners to push their agenda by fearmongering and exaggerating the actual damage.

And this is where I have a problem, too many people (not just kids) will simply not recognise the harm drugs do. If you tell them they're not inevitably dangerous, all they hear is that they're safe. Not only that, we have a societal problem that will export the external costs of drugs (specifically alcohol and cigarettes) onto society at the cost of making individual firms richer. Edit: What I'm saying is that as a society we either forbid things or make them legal then go bloody mental in abusing them. My currently rather liberal position on drugs will have to contend with this kind of stupidity if we do legalise.

> also, you wouldn't jump on a horse or do any other risky sport without proper training. what would be comparable training for alcohol and drug use if not education in school?

Agreed, but parents must have some responsibility, I think we both agree with that.

>> Do you allow there could be benefits to recreational drugs used appropriately and in moderation?

> i do, but i still believe the risks outweigh the benefits. unlike horseriding where the benefits outweigh the risks, even though statistically there is a higher risk of injury.

Given what the equasy paper says...

Acute harm to person [MDMA] +1 per 10000 episodes [horse riding] ++1 per 350 episodes

...can you really say that? What are the benefits of horseriding, if exercise then there are other safer ways of getting that. If it's the responsibility of looking after an animal, get a cat or a dog (and that option is much more widely available than owning a horse – we could never have afforded it). What are those benefits?

> most of us do not get this certainty. stressfactors reduce, but they never completely disappear, and they may come back any time. people vow to give up drinking, it works for a while, then something happens, and they are back. veterans know that they are done for good, and that they will never have to make that experience again.

agreed, and we both agree ciggies and booze should be treated less indulgently by society.