> This isn't true; first of all because even if you write SQL, SQL performance is not immediately obvious for any but the simplest of indexed queries. In no storage system do you ever get away from reasoning about this.

True, but ORM adds yet another layer of cruft to debug and monitor, with arguably few benefits for such an advanced user; Also, in some databases, EXPLAIN is your friend, and may not give you execution time (it does, but lets assume you're right just for the sake of it), but it does give you planned "execution cost". 0.1 is better than 0.5, and so on and so on. Also, it will tell you if your indexes are actually being used (are you a mysql user? that would explain a lot).

Regarding performance, you have 3 main areas that are costly: query execution, result retrieval time, result serialization & transformation; The first two are characteristics of the design of the database and the specific system characteristics; the last one is pure framework-dependant. If you're a python buff, you'll quickly realize that your application will spend a non-trivial amount of time getting around proxy class implementations for models in the deserialization phase of the data - in some cases, more than the query and transport time itself. All because you eg. wanted to compute spent minutes in a given task for a given user for a year, counted in hours or melons or whatever.

> that people like us who write CRUD systems day in and day out do

I write a shit-ton of CRUD systems (in python), and none of them use Django, because interoperability is often desired, and in some cases - a requirement. Just because you use Django and a ORM to design some stuff, doesn't make it wrong, but also doesn't make it right. Want to design database CRUDS without code? There are plenty of tools for that, ranging from bpm tools like Bonita BPM (OSS) to OutSystems.

>Again, you're talking about theoretical disadvantages which I have only really encountered about a half dozen times in over a decade of using Django even in performance-sensitive areas.

Or - or - we're discussing problems you don't have because you work in a very narrow field where Django is actually a good fit. They exist, and nothing against it. But the mustard is on the nose if you tell me you've been spending "over a decade" with Django. In "over a decade", I've written a shit ton of libraries in at least 4 languages on this specific topic (database middlewares, query builders, object mappers, etc), and the driver for all of them was to solve problems you describe as "one in a hundred".

> Rewriting one ORM query out of a hundred is not a problem

Actually, it is. Because its not *one* query, its one endpoint - it may be using a dozen models, on a dozen child subroutines, to compute a specific value; It may be actually using a function on a different app for a specific computation; It may actually happen that the local computation has certain characteristics the replacing query doesn't because it is used server-side - sum of times; sum of decimals; sum of floats; And now every time someones edit that model assuming "that's it", they either have a crappy abstraction model and realize they also need to edit some method's sql queries by hand (oh and patch the migrations, if necessary), or they're just playing whack-a-mole with the assorted array of custom functions breaking up in unit testing. In the end - assuming all things are equal - I would very much prefer if architecture and concern delegation wasn't affected by some performance-related refactorings.