>That's simply not true! 2008 was the beginning of the trend toward energy self sufficiency; please look at the data [0]. The US was far from self-sufficient for most of the 20th Century.

Oh, good grief. The second sentence of your cite is "Up to the early 1950s, the United States produced most of the energy in consumed."

Let me repeat:

* The US was self-sufficient in oil until the 1960s.

* The US could always have been self-sufficient, or reasonably close to it, especially with Canadian supply. It would have been difficult/very expensive at times, but it could have been done.

* This is not true of the rest of the developed world. The Gulf War was fought to maintain supply to Europe, not the US (although the US benefited from the overall lower global prices as a result).

* Since 2008 or so fracking has brought about a second period of US self-sufficiency without most of the difficulties that would have been necessary in the second half of the 20th century.

>This is hard to follow

You know exactly what I meant.

You wrote:

>the US Federal government subsidized your gas (ever wonder why US gas is cheaper than Canada/EU?)

Even if you weren't trying to insinuate with the word "subsides" that the US wasn't actually giving out huge handouts to oil companies, that's what 99% of readers would take away from your statement.

>Again, pricing externalities does not work that way. It's not a "pay to solve the problems" thing, it's a "make the true cost apparent to the consumer" thing.

"Pricing externalities" implies that there is some sort of closer relationship in other countries between the price of gas and its "actual" cost (in terms of long-term environmental impact), including solutions for same. As I said, we both know that this is almost never the case.

As for affecting behavior in the here and now, higher gas taxes in, say, rural France or Ireland does not mean that French or Irish farmers are less willing to use gas-fueled trucks to carry produce to markets, because they have no alternative (at least right now; maybe this will change in the future with EV trucks). It means that they pay more per gallon to do so than their American counterparts. Period.

>This is the most wildly incorrect part of your comment. Subsidies skew supply/demand curves, both of which have slopes.

I would never deny that subsidies skew behavior. My point was that said "subsidies" were, even in the EESI paper you initially cited, relatively small compared to price per gallon or the overall petroleum market's size and behavior. This was true with the $0.34/gallon figure I initially erroneously calculated, and is certainly true for the correct ~$0.03/gallon figure (again, a "worst case scenario") I provided later! Feel free to tell people about how the US government distorts the gas market at three cents a gallon. I fear that the scale of their reaction will disappoint you.

>And again, circling back here, all I'm trying to say is that the US meaningfully subsidizes energy, which they do. I honestly think it's a good thing! It's been the economic engine of growth for the US. I don't think we should stop! (notice how you assumed I had an agenda just by trying to state facts, maybe examine that a little...)

This is you rapidly beating a retreat.

You began your first reply to me with

>Oh fun! I love when people Dunning-Kruger themselves on accounting (I literally just sat up straight in my chair!)

Basically, you saw the chance to unleash your superior accounting skills. Nothing wrong with that; I've certainly enjoyed doing so many times for things I know more about than other people.

You then said

>Let's go through your argument (would you believe I did both read and understand the document I linked!?),

Based on your missing the second sentence of the EIA document you cited above, the answer remains "No, I do not believe that you actually read the EESI paper before citing it the first time".

You are, of course, by now realizing that although you know more about accounting than me, all you have done is to "prove" that US gas is "subsidized" by the munificent sum of three cents per gallon. I thank you for doing so.