>> "never personally eat meat strikes me as a bit of a neurotic, narcissistic response"

> So avoiding killing is a neurotic, narcissistic response? Like, really?

To industrialized abuse, yeah. My response is to check that the ranch I'm associated with doesn't do that, and that the laws and standard procedures are things I'm comfortable with, and move on with my life. It's pretty common for vegans to bring up that some farms are abusive and awful, and I think a psychologically normal response to that is switch and/or to try to fix farms. Responding by checking out entirely strikes me as either dishonest or narcissistic -- it says to me that it isn't about the animals, it's about you. That you don't see a problem to solve, you see guilt-by-association to run away from.

It's perfectly fair to point out that plenty of people do both. Nonetheless, it has always seemed to me that the people involved in realistic, practical efforts to improve animal welfare are also the ones that eat them. Vegan efforts seem to be, by comparison, performative. I suppose it's just an impression, but I jumping so hard and so fast to making things about you... yeah. I do find that neurotic and narcissistic.

> What the Health!

LOL. That film is legendary for having a hilariously creative relationship with medicine and science. Don't take my word for it -- go look at the Wikipedia page for the film.

Is your other stuff that good? XD

> You know that cows giving milk are mothers,

Of course. Being a mother myself, I'm actually pretty familiar with how lactation works in humans, and I'm given to understand cows follow a lot of the same principles.

> forcefully impregnated/raped every year

Well.. this may be technically true, but is a good example of being at odds with biological reality. Cows go into heat and want to get pregnant -- so badly that cows will hurt themselves letting other cows mount them, even when there's no bull available. So the idea that a cow in heat doesn't "consent" to getting pregnant is like . . . I'm not sure what sort of consent you're looking for? Like, they really, really, really obviously want to in any conventional sense of the word. Beyond that, I'm not sure the concept would even apply to cows?

If you're asking whether I have a problem with the artificial insemnation of cows in heat on an annual basis, overseen by a farmer with the health of the cow in mind, my answer is that the question itself is ... LOL. Dude. Check your anthropomorphism.

I have no idea what sort of alternative reality you have in mind for these animals. If they lived in a herd with bulls, you better darn well believe they're getting pregnant as often as biologically possible. The alternative is, I guess, living solo as a pet? I am very okay with cows living sub-pet-quality lives, yes. I think this entire line of inquiry is silly.

It's not like, if these cows could delay pregnancy, they could go to college and it would be good for their career. It's not like they're left with emotional issues that require therapy. This is what animals in general, and cows in particular, do. The whole process is like nature, but safer. This is the silliest objection EVER.

> with their calf taken from them on the day it's born?

This used to concern me, until I saw them, and they seemed chill. I dunno. Different animals have different attachment to their offspring. This would certainly be cruel to humans; it's necessary and expected with fish. Where are cows on this scale? They... seem pretty chill. Iunno, if they don't care, I don't? And the explanation that was given to me for this practice was to protect the calfs, which makes sense to me.

At any rate -- I know in humans, babies and moms heal each other, both physically and psychologically. I'm completely confident that if it worked that way in cattle, it would be done that way. The people making this tradeoff seem to be thinking of a lot of things, and they seem to love their cows. I'm pretty comfortable with them in charge of that, and at any rate, they certainly seem to have a better handle on the considerations than you do!

And anyway anyway, is the thinking that this is done to take milk away from the calf for profit? Because those calves are bottle-fed and drink... milk. So I'm really not sure what your theory is about what's going on here.

> They loudly grieve for days/weeks, sometimes hiding the calf from the farmer only to be taken away from them days later?

Um, no. I have no idea where this idea comes from, but I can say with complete confidence that it's not accurate in general. On the contrary. Sometimes they can't tell whose calf it is.

Animals. Aren't. People! Different animals are more or less like people in a lot of different ways in this area, and cows are not like people in this one.

> Do you know that producing milk on industrial scale shortens lifespan of cows to cca 1/3 (5-6 years instead of 20+), only to leave the cow exhausted/crippled

... also nowhere close to true. Producing milk does not leave the cow exhausted and crippled. It's a perfectly normal process that I personally have gone through as a human that is not damaging to the body. "Well, you didn't do it industrially" -- no listen, there are humans that do some amazing things in this department. It's hard work, but the idea that it uses up your body and shortens your life somehow is coocoo for cocoa puffs. Quite the opposite. In humans -- and in cows -- the way to high milk production is (a) lots of food and (b) low stress lifestyle and (c) lots of rest. Dairy cows live in a day spa because it's profitable. Facts. It's got to be just about one of the most charmed and comfortable examples of animal life!

Being old makes these older cows tired, but they are old! Living much longer than they normally would! Living to 20 isn't normal -- living to 20 is with humans doing their utmost to care for the cow. "Normal" is how the cows would be without human intervention, i.e., in the wild, and I don't think their wild cousins typically get to six. Yeah, humans can care for some super old cows, and that's lovely. That doesn't mean every cow is owed that. Dairy cows typically live, like, six years? I think they do well at that.

Some people who raise chickens for eggs or cows for milk give them a retirement past their productive years. That's lovely, but I don't think it's a moral obligation.

> and killed (changed into burgers) in the end?

Of course! That's part of their job!

> Why we drink cow milk? Why not rat milk, giraffe milk, dog milk, human milk ... why it has to be cow milk?

I have no idea what you're getting at. Humans drink all kinds of milk. They definitely drink human milk. I think, globally speaking, we mostly drink goat milk?

> Why are cca 50-70% of people milk intolerant?

Hehehehehe the interesting and awesome thing is that 50-30% of people (to use your numbers) are NOT! The persistence of the gene that allows the processing of lactose is SUPER advantageous and an absolute historical civilization GAME CHANGER! Cows built civilization!!! Which is awesome! Human thriving!! They're still doing it!!! :)

> Do you know about pus in the milk?

Ehhh... to me, this is a little like worrying about the presence of ground up bugs in coffee or flour or whatever. Or like, did you know basically all of your food has an allowable percentage of rat poop, and it isn't zero? Biological processes are messy. It's never gonna be zero. Sorry. But it's small and it isn't dangerous. They actually do a really good job sanitizing those cows, IMO.

> About linked diseases like parkinsons and other autoimmune diseases linked to milk?

That is a whole bucket o' worms, so I'll just say I'm hip to the medical implications of milk and not personally worried. Different people have different experiences, though I will say that fortunately, almost all the stuff people worry about in milk goes away if you focus on cream. Which is awesome anyway.

> That cow eating grass near industrial factory will eat more pollutants in a day than somebody living near breathing air for 14 years? About bioaccumulation of toxins in the milk/meat?

I know the industry is super aware of this phenomenon and is far more careful about it than I can police them to be. :) And that if this worries someone, there are all kinds of grass-fed, pampered, share-in-a-cow-you-personally-know options out there.

> About all proteins/b12 coming from plants/bacteria, not from the animals?

I did not know that about B12! Pubmed says, "We depend on B-12 producing bacteria in ruminant stomachs." Rad.