skysight-inc/HackerNews huggingface dataset:
> Mitigating this risk on its own obviously doesn't net you a secure system, but as part of a security moat of sorts, it is certainly not useless.

No, that's why people keep talking about multi-user systems. On a developer workstation it's almost pointless. If people were running Homebrew on servers and it defaulted to allowing other users to write to its directory, he'd have more of a point but since the former isn't common and the latter isn't the case, it's not really helping anyone to present this in such bold terms.
> The claim that there has been some “dangerous escalation” in the past 2 weeks is nonsense.

I believe the final push for Cloudflare to drop them was this forum thread where users were organizing a bomb threat & armed confrontation against several members of the Drop Kiwi Farms campaign.

(copied from https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/x56mot/cloudfla...)
This is a bit unsettling, I thought that the emergency threat was moderated off the site (as mentionned by the main [1]).

I know that place is horrendous, but it feels like CF blocked it because of the media attention instead of the threat itself. There is plenty of content online that actively partakes in stochastic terrorism as well as direct threats that are serviced by Cloudflare.

The question of what makes content worth dropping, without the involvement of law enforcement, from such low level infrastructure services is a scary prospect, especially when you consider the issues that current internet has[2].

The moment they caved in, Cloudflare stopped being a simple infrastructure provider, and we can be sure that there will be actors, big and small, that will pull levers to make this happen again.

The silver lining is that a hateful forum will probably cease to operate for good.

[1] - https://twitter.com/keffals/status/1566158393391423489

[2] - https://secushare.org/broken-internet
Most libertarians here don't understand free speech in the US legal system.
Unit testing is quite overrated. Testing stuff "by hand" is more or less writing a unit test you delete afterwards.
So did liveleak.

>a site that is implicated in several deaths

Youtube

>several swattings

Twitch
Makes sense. I wouldn't wish autism on anyone, knowing how much suffering it causes me. It's reasonable then to abort fetuses with signs of autism right? Mental illness is terrible too.
The operator posted this on Telegram: "Cloudflare's decision to block the site was done without any discussion. The message I've received is a vague suspension notice. The message from Matthew Prince is unclear. If there is any threat to life on the site, I have received no communication from any law enforcement."
Give it 5 years. The internet will be divided along political lines and private companies will decide who's political message is true, and what is legal and not.
That's right - the C locale would be immune to this. We are primarily seeing this while migrating customers into Crunchy Bridge whose databases are using language/region specific collations that pre-date the glibc 2.28 updates and either are still running old glibc versions or have upgraded in the intervening years without detecting/addressing the mismatch.
Reach – interactive mural and musical instrument
Cloudflare doesn't just offer DDoS protection, though.

Websites like Kiwifarms play a cat and mouse game with hosting providers, who typically don't want to host them. Cloudflare's other services make it easier to conceal which hosting provider is involved, making it harder to (legally!) pressure them. DDoS isn't the only way to take a site down.
Let's not obscure things by calling it an issue of "hate speech." That is an impermissible broadening. As they said, "hard cases make bad law." The only way to mitigate the badness is to make the decision as narrow as possible.

It's about illegal threats of violence. Those were against the law long before anyone ever used the term "hate speech."
To be even clearer, in this case it’s not even really quite clear that this was legal content at all! Coordinated stalking of people!

Of course you could say “the legal system should handle it”. But what serious company says “let’s wait for a court to maximize our legal exposure”. The guy cited hard cases. This seems pretty easy!

And of course, why does Cloudflare proactively take down other sites that have anything to do with sex work but require a billion justifications for sites like this?
Actually I'm reorganizing mine, the idea is to build a 3-mode desk, one part is an on-wheel structure, just two legs and an upper part, the upper part sustain the monitor and two 5-6 rack unit side-by-side standard 19" places plus a plane to keep wired keyboard and mouse etc there.

A second detachable part is a keyboard stand to be used both in standing mode and in sit-down mode.

The third part is the sit-down part: a treadmill with a long chair on top, to allow stationary standing mode, slow march mode, sit-down one all in the same furniture.

So far I've just made few prototypes with scrap wood though...
I am honestly dumbfounded about the government hate on HN. It's elected by you and your peers. You can influence it and you can even be part of it yourself. If you want change do it and stop spreading FUD.
I do not think you will find many people who agree with this definition.

Reading, writing, and testing your own code is entry level. That’s most basic of basics.

My favorite definition of senior was “someone who can jump into any system in the project, including parts they aren’t familiar with, to diagnose and fix any issue”. That’s a little unfair for extremely large projects, but it’s pretty close.

Alternatively, senior developers are given vague problems and it’s up them to design, implement, and own solutions. Staff/principle, and to less extent senior, devs are also responsibly for wisely identifying what problems even need to be solved.
They were going to zero when they decided to ignore/defy #DropKiwiFarms, my dude. They did what they did to salvage their business.
There absolutely were not, and this is a gross exaggeration. One user made a clearly satirical comment about posting IRA soldiers with bombs at every cafe in the Ulster area. This was screenshotted by Keffals and posted to Twitter as a serious threat. Everyone else posting in the thread understand it was an extremely dumb joke. The post was removed by the KF owner within minutes. If that is why the site went down, I’ll be amazed and disappointed.
Its important to mention that Algernon's disorder is Phenylketonuria, the inability to break down an amino acid that damages the brain and blood as infants.

We can test babies and avoid the disorder by making them eat special diet for a while. But not those who sadly experienced brain damages first.

Such treatment may hopefully help them too. But the action mechanism must be separate than this drug, I think?
> I am a free speech absolutist, but

Then you are not a freedom speech absolutist (which is fine, and not completely unreasonable).
I would suggest you take up that question with Cloudflare. Based off your previous statements, they’re now supporting “terroristic” acts. I’m not sure why you would want the opinion of some internet stranger over a corporation that is now directly supporting terrorism by your estimation.

It is weird!
> As I remember the policy they posted had exceptions for sites that were dangerous/etc. I think what they did today is completely consistent.

It's a fig leaf and an obvious moving of the goalposts. Any time they really hate a site, they'll just decide that it's now "dangerous" and use that excuse to ban it.
People have always posted (usually fake) threats in kiwifarms threads. They have always been removed promptly. The same is true of basically every large website on the internet. When cloudflare made their post saying they wouldn't remove kiwifarms, the site already had that reputation.
The only thing that bothers me about this decision is the fact that they made a wrong-headed announcement of principle that calls the decision into question.

Free speech absolutism which extends beyond legal protection, and which demands private organizations and individuals to materially protect and service all speech is hopelessly naive. Volunteering to do it is past the point of absurdity.

By engaging in that absurdity, they undermined the credibility of their motives making this decision today. They knew there’s a red line, and if at least two adults were in a room before the previous statement was issued it would be almost impossible to believe that they hadn’t discussed that red line. That knowledge should have guided them against making any statement at all, because even clarifying their red lines would create perverse incentives.

I don’t begrudge Cloudflare their principles, nor their decision to deviate from them in the face of reality. I also don’t doubt their motives as written in both statements, though I think they may wildly underestimate how much trust and good will that requires… and how little reason they have to assume it’s present. I do personally wish they’d reached this decision sooner, as a non-binary person who could certainly be targeted by KF campaigns. But I have a strong free expression instinct too, and a set of privileges of my own which sometimes delay my recognition of real present danger that I don’t experience directly.

If any Cloudflare staff is reading this comment: you made the right decision. Please try to use caution when such a decision is potentially on the horizon but hasn’t yet been made. Just as real human lives are at stake when you provide (or don’t provide) services to any particular customer, real human lives are at stake when you damage your credibility making that decision.
I'd put money on that. Your wager is "by September 2027, Cloudflare will remove sites critical of the imperial powers using hate speech as a cover for removing said critical content"?

I'd take that bet on a heartbeat. Cloudflare will absolutely remove others from their service in the next 5 years, but they will be kin to 8chan, the daily Stormer, and kiwi farms. As long as we can agree that none of them would satisfy the conditions of your bet.
Running algorithms doesn’t make something a computer. Lots of things have SoCs in them but aren’t general computers if eg you can’t change the algorithms they do.

And all the results about all computers being equivalent only work if they have access to infinite storage and power. That computation isn’t outside the set of all theoretical thoughts, it’s just outside the set of all ones in actually existing human brains that don’t have access to a pen and paper.
In looking up some unconventional languages, I found Befunge[0].

> Befunge is a two-dimensional stack-based, reflective, esoteric programming language. It differs from conventional languages in that programs are arranged on a two-dimensional grid. "Arrow" instructions direct the control flow to the left, right, up or down, and loops are constructed by sending the control flow in a cycle. It has been described as "a cross between Forth and Lemmings".

> The language was originally created by Chris Pressey in 1993 for the Amiga, as an attempt to devise a language which is as hard to compile as possible. Note that the p command allows for self-modifying code. Nevertheless, a number of compilers have subsequently been written. A number of extensions to the original "Befunge-93" specification also exist, most notably Funge-98, which extends the concept to an arbitrary number of dimensions and can be multithreaded, with multiple instruction pointers operating simultaneously on the same space. Befunge-extensions and variants are called Fungeoids or just Funges.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Befunge
> The strategy at the average European company is to spend most of the money on a sales people army and have a few engineers build the product.

Did you mean "average European software company"? A lot of the German Mittelstand companies are the opposite. Instead they sell into a niche through trade shows (another thing probably going away).
>There is no government involved here though.

See the parent comment I was replying to. We agreed on the statement that "Private companies should not be the de facto moderators of free speech". I just think it is weird to argue this in a thread where we have just turned 180 degrees from our original premise.
Python contractor here - in the current market, 500£/day is low enough that you can still bill the entire year if you’re not too picky as to what kind of work you take - just like the parent post, I have to turn down work constantly.

Indeed, the IR35 debacle and general downturn given the current events have put a damper on business, but at 500/day it’s still doable.
You do realize that you’re posting in a thread downstream of the CTO of the company?

…On a public message board and seems interested in figuring out what is or isn’t happening.
I wonder how someone who founded a company like this could lead a rocketry company.. For all of Elon's flaws he does seem to reward hard work and taking responsibility. Bad leadership, blaming others, doesn't sound like a culture you'd want in something where more can go wrong than a few deliveries.
http://archive.today/moIax
The question is why and how. There is no point is arguing "low" European salaries unless someone shows European companies are more profitable and they save a nice chunk of money by paying less to S/w engineers.

Not very familiar with Australia. But thinking that high paying company like Atlassian which produces a very crappy software which I unfortunately deal daily.
To me it shows high pay does not guarantee good quality software which many(not you) seems to be arguing here.
It would be nice to have a transcript. Video description:

-----

When it comes to serverless applications one principle rules them all: idempotency. This ability to rerun a function, make a REST API call, or process a message any number of times and ensure the same result is extremely hard to do reliably. In this talk, I’d like to explain and explore the importance of idempotency and discuss how we can implement it in our own systems, including:

1. Idempotency’s relationship with good serverless architecture.

2. How safe retries are impossible without idempotency.

3. Examples of serverless frameworks and tools that help/encourage idempotency.

You’ll leave this talk with a deeper understanding and appreciation for this tongue-twisting principle and start combing through your code with an idempotent eye.
When did the Mughals rule Thiruvananthapuram?
Is that a rhetorical question or a sincere one? Legal liability. American law has lots of direct liability for Cloudflare under SESTA/FOSTA for being involved in sex work websites. There's not equivalent liability for hate websites.
I was actually asking how they were serialized and stored on disk.
Event-driven architecture going haywire, think S3 --> Lambda recursion
Except for all those pesky lignin and cellulose decomposing fungi this would be a perfect plan.
I dont get this either.

No, I do, they are being vauge on purpouse.

Atleast with Kiwifarms, they had screenshots and archive.is links to everything a person has said.

Cloudflare only has vauge language.

If there was bad content on the site, report it to the mods/admins.

Facebook hosted the Christchurch livestream. Better kill FB next.
A nice hack for advancing a hypocritical political position on HN: just say

>I genuinely believe [contradictory proposition].

That way, anyone who was to question the value of said belief or the wisdom of sharing it with others could be construed as having engaged in some form of "personal attack".
It's a corruption of the old name of the site, which is a reference to another site, which is named after the first and possibly most famous victim of that community's stalking. See the History section of its Wikipedia article. It has nothing to do with New Zealand or kiwis, indeed.
It’s not just the ID and electric stuff that VW messed up software on. I’ve heard the same complaints regarding Mk 8 GTI, a very petrol car.
It’s just a systematic failure and I’m not the tiniest bit surprised. I can’t see how they come out of this easily being that their SW/HW platforms are probably rotten to the core, and in automotive it takes a product cycle to fix (5-7 years).
You don't have to work there no. But employees should always feel free to unionise if they want to. No matter how well reviewed the workplace is.
It could. Maybe that's what happened?
Apples goal of planned obsolescence is self evident. The settled lawsuits confirm it to those with open eyes.

Further, the wikipedia page for planned obsolescence (read the defintion they have, it screams Apple) references the Apple battery lawsuits in 'see also'. That should be enough I think? Included in that list are quite a few other bad practices that Apple engages in! Kinda fun to read the list with Apple in mind. Vendor lock in, right to repair, crippleware (battery software degredation), phobeus cartel (5 years of computer life down from infinite), and more! Its almost just a list of shitty stuff Apple (and other modern phone companies) do. Wow, theyre bad sports.

Denial doesn't get us anything but shitty quality phones by shitty companies.
Earlier they posted this image.

https://blog.cloudflare.com/content/images/2022/08/pasted-im...

That made sense to me. Basic services, transit, blocking ddos… little, if any moderation.

Hosting content, more moderation.

I might strongly disagree with someone and I sure as hell won’t host their BS, but I still think some basic level of rights/ services should be provided.
> It's not a difficult to say, "while we have no policies that restrict lawful content, we reserve the right to not service those who host and promulgate content that explicitly creates emergency threats to human life."

And if everyone did that, its the exact same as government censorship minus any sort of due process or redress ability.

There's this weird idea that government censorship is abhorent but private censorship is somehow without sin, even when the results are basically identical.
I don't know what else has been there, but this seems like it would qualify, no?

https://twitter.com/keffals/status/1566153033586810885

I understand that it's since been deleted.
> Hard cases make bad law. This is a hard case and we would caution anyone from seeing it as setting precedent.

OK, but you should be clear about the definition of hard cases.
What exactly constitutes "an emergency threat to human life"?

Hypothetical example: Suppose you're providing DDOS protection for a website belonging to country X, that acts against the interests of your country. War erupts between the two countries, and the website plays an important role in the information warfare by propagating fake news.
Would that constitute an emergency threat to human life since it helps perpetuate the war?
The wikipedia page is not honest and completely locked down.
I don't really have much to say to that since I did actually try to acknowledge this, honestly!

> I agree that this particular security mitigation is probably of limited usefulness in this scenario

> If you want me to agree that it would be better if the tone of the memo were more forgiving, I do agree

Not trying to be condescending by quoting myself here, but we're basically already at an agreement; The linked post has some issues.
> Well, reviewers busy fiddling with ten thousand settings in 14 INCH TOUCHSCREEN.

Instead of looking at the road.
Right. Centralization of morals and ethics simply causes mass polarization and, eventually and inevitably, war over "which side wins." Those in favor of the rational gray area will be trampled on by both sides.
Thank you. I'm so fucking amazed that the people saying this is the right move don't have any first hand knowledge of what the farm is actually like. These people are blindly ushering in a wave of censorship unlike anything we've seen before because they only care to listen to one side. The lack of knowledge here is astounding. This is how societies collapse, and I'm not exaggerating. No one ever MEANT to implode a civilization.
The Keffals thread documents her insanely misogynist tweets and inappropriate interactions with minors. It's plainly clear why she wanted KF deplatformed.
It's not difficult to say, but it can be difficult to live at any meaningful scale. That invites endless pressure campaigns and similarly endless accusations of acting arbitrarily, capriciously, or with insert-bias-or-agenda-here. None of those are free to handle in any responsible or timely fashion. Never mind what happens should a genuine mistake be made.

It puts the company in the same position as Facebook in regards to moderation. It's endless, expensive, and your work is never good enough. Not a desirable position for most.
Clear and present danger is not protected under free speech, and that's exactly what the OP describes.
GP was likely aware of this but didn’t explicitly state why imminence was important.

Where does it specifically say in the US Constitution that you’re allowed to incite violence? :-)

Usually the answer here is going to be someone cites the 1st Amendment, and a persons right to free speech. From that we have Brandenburg vs. Ohio, and also then Hess vs. Indiana, and subsequent cases which use those precedents from the Supreme Court, these hold that 1A protection does disappear where someone is calling for “imminent violence”.

Many of the internet hellholes hiding behind Cloudflare have significant quantities of unmoderated and extreme discourse where participants do call for imminent violence against another party and that is not 1A protected behavior.
A campaign of state sponsored genocide against a class of people because they may be disadvantaged or have a more difficult life, for "the greater good" is... concerning.

Assuming tests were possible (which they might be), what would you think about an intensive government campaign to eliminate homosexual and trans people from the population?
Sounds like it would be hard to scale yourself, time wise, If you kept deleting the automation.
> KF started doxxing and threatening CF employees, as well as their other customers.

First I’ve heard, and I’ve followed this story closely. Do you have a source?

Sounds about as likely as KF SWATing a Republican Congresswoman and calling the police to say “it was us, Kiwi Farms” in the middle of this conflict over hosting, which is exactly what was claimed in that case.
Is it? I thought that it was hosted outside of the US, and that while the admin was an American citizen he didn't live on US soil. That's from vague memories from years ago though, so maybe not accurate or up to date.

Although I guess as a European I don't know if I really trust the USA to do a good job fighting hate speech. We have a pretty different take on that over here.
Hey. I'm not sure who you are based on your handle but could you email me (jgc@) and tell me more.
Interesting how aggregating public information, mostly Twitter posts, is "weaponizing"
Same problem here!
Hate speech always leads to further extremist behavior and death threats. Now, the US is very tolerant of hate speech in itself. The problem is haters are completely incapable of avoiding the next step wherein they call for the call for the deaths of those they hate. The very moment they do that I am perfectly fine with all of our existing laws on things like terroristic threats being wielded against those making the threats.

You have the right to speak, but you also have the right to repercussions, in specific when those actions are a call to harm.
I've given you the clarification, I'm not willing to continue a discussion based on pedantry.
Do they not also dox people? That actually is pretty disgusting
“Lives are on the line” is at least more original than “Think of the children”.
Why not continue to bootstrap a business that generates profits? Optimizing for VC funding seems like the wrong direction.
I'm not sure:
https://www.cjr.org/language_corner/swath-swathe.php