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Not all of us tech people aspire to be system administrator on every single box with an operating system that we own or come into contact with. Eventually you start to realise there are too many boxes and not enough time. I have absolutely zero interest in being able to ssh into my mobile phone - I'm happy to accept that the people who were working on building the mobile phone full-time are going to be doing better work than I can manage to squeeze in outside of my day job.
I'm pretty sure this got upvoted because people thought Steve = Steve Jobs. Congratulations!
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Great story. You show not only great character, but great writing skills too.
"So, if your friends are giving you a hard time, tell 'em to knock it the hell off. Or find new friends."

This.

OP: Sounds like your friends are a little insecure or uncomfortable around risk takers like yourself. They're not cut from the same cloth. Truth is, most people in our society aren't. They're play-it-safe types, and to them, stepping outside the lines is tantamount to insanity. Many of these folks will take corporate jobs, or law jobs, and lead lives of reasonably well-compensated misery. None of them will be paid nearly what his lost days and months and years are actually worth; this is felt intangibly, in the back of his mind, like a dull pain whose cause he can't quite pin down.

Learn to draw strength from within, and not to depend so much on external cues of approval or disapproval. Because guess what? Most people in your life are always going to disapprove of entrepreneurial decisions, or outside-the-norm inclinations. If you're always looking outward for validation, you're never going to get it.

Unfortunately, failure is the risk we outside-the-norm types face. We roll the dice, even if we try to roll them intelligently. And so, you failed this time. The dice came up empty. It sucks. I can't possibly tell you it doesn't, and I won't try to sugar coat it. It cuts you to your very soul, and it weighs you down. It makes you feel worthless and helpless. I've been there myself, and I know the feeling all too well. But the important thing is that you don't let a failure become failure. Learn from this one. You'll need time to get back on your feet, rebuild, and distance yourself from the emotional impact of this failure. But eventually, when you're strong enough, you're going to want to revisit it. Because you'll find quite a bit of experiential knowledge in it. When you confront your failure and really get to the bottom of it -- really understand why it happened -- you'll know what not to do next time.

The difference between people who fail, and people who are failures, is that the former learn from their mistakes. They draw wisdom from them, so they don't repeat them. That's what matters.
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This isn't really all that uncommon. The first time I read about it was the late 1970s, in that case the mother was "black" and the twins were still babies.

The doctor's account of the genetics in the article is wrong, also. There are at least 5 different genes affecting skin color which show mixed dominance with darker being dominant. So a "black" person with a single white ancestor many generations ago can still carry the genes for light skin as a recessive; which can be expressed in their children given the right mix of other genes. Hair texture and color are similar, I don't know about other characteristics. The only reason I know as much as I do about the skin color genetics is that they were used as an example for tracking complex, multigene inheritance over generations in a human genetics textbook I read in the early 1980s (I have not even the vaguest memory of its exact title and authors).
> You're implying that Wave engineers don't know how to use Java. But Wave engineers are Google engineers. Google engineers are hired somewhere in a high 90th percentile of programming ability and experience.

I'll just leave this here (Dart - the new language from Google). http://webreflection.blogspot.com/2011/10/what-is-wrong-abou...

I think you're a little too trusting that every single Google programmer knows what they're doing.
Ha! Yep. I thought it was a bit too honest for a public post by someone who's still employed there.

Of course, maybe he'll be moving on. His very first line was comparing his tenure at Amazon (6.5 years) to "and now I've been at Google for that long". I don't think that's a coincidence, even if he doesn't consciously realize it yet.
Agreed. Today's technology - CoffeeScript + Backbone.js + node.js-ish backend would make it a lot easier to develop something like Wave in a couple of months by one or two developers (plus maybe a designer).

Looking at the app I'm building (alone) with these tools, I could say that it's on par with Wave on the realtime UI and complexity, but the development experience is a really pleasurable one. These tools are crafted for exactly what I'm doing and it seems like they know what I want to do before I want it.

But then again, back then you didn't have these tools so I guess you had no choice but to go the 'academic' Java way.

But anyway, congratulations on this incredible achievement and also for the many lessons learned and shared with the world.
Awesome, missed the last one but I can hopefully make it this time.
You're under pressure. Stay there - it's right where you're meant to be. This pressure will either crush you, or change your character from coal into diamond.

Remember, even if your friends are dicks and your dad is abusive, you've got dozens of friends on HN who believe in you :)

Print the responses on this thread, and read them out to yourself every morning before and after you go for a jog. The perspective that will provide you will help.
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I have an acid test for any place which claims to be a startup. When someone proclaims this, ask them to answer any two of the following questions:

- What's my name? (Covering your badge, naturally)

- What am I working on?

- Where am I from?

If the bigwigs can't answer that, I'm sorry, you've moved past actual startup-dom and you're just in la-la land where you just think you are one.

Unfortunately, I only thought of this acid test after leaving a place with 30K employees which had started proclaiming it semi-regularly during their Friday get-togethers.
Could take a look at OMA DRM

http://www.openmobilealliance.org/Technical/current_releases...

Was on a team that implemented it before.

I'd leave it alone though unless you are being paid by someone that has already made the decision to use it.
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The question is not what they share the question is what dart lacks. The two most importend things are (a) dart has statments and expressions (b) no macros.

Then dart does not have a nice concept of true/false witch most lisps have.
Clojure - because Common Lisp is getting really long in the tooth now.
I can't stress enough what good advice that is.
Yeah, that's an incredible story. wow, I need to pick up my game!
Thanks! Out of curiousity: Were you expecting this to go offline? Somehow there's always at least one HN member caching a good article :)
Europe and Australia have forever ruined me with their standard 4 weeks of vacation time. I can't fathom ever going back to anything less.
The Java VMs could not handle the load, they were running out of memory, crashing or spending more time paused for garbage collection than serving. Priceless.
1. Suicide. Everyone responded as they should. But if you meant it, this post wouldn't exist because you'd be hanging from a rafter right now. Just a thought.

2. Your job sucked. Quitting was right.

3. Admit failure at freelancing. Build character.

4. Survive. Go out and get any job you can find. It will give you focus and get you out of the house, away from the bullshit.

5. Get your head straight. Analyse what went wrong. Do it differently, or not at all.

6. Get new friends. Can't get new family, though.

There's no safe route to success.
It doesnt matter what others say you did the right thing. Just because your first try didnt work it doesnt mean nothing else.
Take advices in the other comments. Get a part time job and go study arts or whatever you wanted to in your other post. Get a part time and try to start your own business not with freelancing but something else like builiding your own product. You still have a lot of time and no need to panic. Leaving slavery(your old job) did give you freedom yiu just gotta find out what to do with it. So no more feeling like a loser. Find something to give you some money to live and tha gives you the flexibility to find what you want do it! We're rooting for you!
I'm fascinated by sociology. By the works of people like Max Weber or Elias Canetti especially because they invoke a kind of mysticism which is hardly captured by most modern authors and researchers.

I remember the impact that reading Elias Canetti's "Crowds and Power" had on me when I was around 16 years of age. It was in my dad's book shelf, an old and battered book. Afterwards I picked up Konrad Lorenz' "On Aggression" from the same book shelf. Good times.

I'm neither a great writer nor am I a blogger, and English isn't my native language. I wished more tech articles would be less mono-thematic. So kudos for this article, I enjoyed reading it.

I was never a big Apple fan boy, but what Apple had going for them was a leader with many interests and a curiousness that ventured outside the established boundaries.
Reposting this comment which was made by a dead account:
"A few years ago I was in a really similar situation. Now I'm fine, but in that period I called those guys at http://www.befrienders.org It really helped me. (sorry for my bad english) Creativity saved me, not necessarly BIG creativity. I was helped being creative, and now I'm really fine. I hope this helps."
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It would be interesting to take Salesforce also as a case study. Didn't they move from a product to a platform?
The obvious example is a wiki.
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My benchmark is this: If they're a startup, then I want at least %1 equity on a fully diluted basis in stock options!

Also, if they're public, they're not a startup!
I notice that he doesn't think much of Amazon's hiring practices, but doesn't really address the fact that Google's aren't really that great either. When it works, it works, but the hiring committee system they use has some failure glaring flaws as well.
I actually did something similar, had my kids drawing sprites for a javascript/css game, but we did a shoot-em-up. Great fun!
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So instead we should adopt your attitude and lash out at everyone on this page trying to help? I've been in this situation as well and can closely relate to what he has said. I'm 31 now but life seemed pretty hopeless when I was 20 with few options. I also chose to move back home and went back to school for a few years and then was able to freelance and got lucky. I also had pressure issues with my Dad. These things happen to other people too. It's boilerplate because it works. Nobody is saying "cheer up", I'm reading more "hang in there" from the comments. The struggle is necessary in order to get to a stage where you are able to see the situation with perspective.
> "You must be disgruntled"

But you are disgruntled. You've got excellent reasons for being so. I always wonder why people will use things like that as stoppers for the discussion, the fact that someone is disgruntled alone should not be cause for dismissal, the underlying reasons are what matter. And you've gone over and beyond the call of duty in my opinion here and I am frankly surprised that Amazon manages to operate if they treat their employees like this.
How is addiction a public health issue?
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I interviewed for a support role at AWS last year, and that was bad enough. 1.5 hrs of a technical screening call, followed by 6 hrs straight (like, no breaks whatsoever) of face-to-face interviews with 6 separate people, only to be told that I needed to improve my networking skills, and that I should take some networking certifications and apply again next year. The beautiful thing? I never claimed to be a networking guy in any shape or form, and it wasn't part of the job description for the role I applied for in the first place. Sounds like I dodged a bullet...
This presentation contains some fairly detailed information about the amazon.com migration to AWS.

tl;dr The organic migration to AWS started in 2006 and continues to this day.

http://psav.mediasite.com/mediasite/Viewer/?peid=7ab95f6a5d4...
Mannicken, your 20... Pain is what you'll experience as a result of life and through it you get growth. I'd suggest perhaps some volunteer work with those in a worse situation than yourself, such as the homeless, it's a great way to get perspective and help others, (Rather than thinking about yourself and what's only a temporary situation). Time and good judgement will fix things for you. But in a culture of instant gratification, it may not be in your time.
This is the risk in asking for, and taking, the advice of an online forum. Especially a place where the people who hang out tend to be fast moving and with a quick, brutal approach to problems such as that you describe.

That's not outright blame for you; we're as much at fault for taking one part of the info and giving you advice on it - no one in the thread seemed to couch their advice with "but talk to your friends/family" etc. Which is probably part of the problem.

You mention the idea of freelancing as a revenue to keep you going; but it is not clear a) what your experience is and b) how much research you did into doing that sort of work as freelance. This is usually killer; I quit an OK job once to go freelance - it didn't work out because I didn't do the work.

Tell us about your skills - someone here on HN will likely have some work for you

Don't get depressed though; you're probably feeling like a failure, but realistically you were in a bad place and decided to try something radical to fix it. That hasn't worked - so try something else!

The suggestion below to go work in a supermarket while you build up freelance work & side projects is a good one. There is nothing wrong with manual labour, especially in your 20's. And if you are worried about being stuck there long term - constantly work not to be there long term.

Building a career is fucking hard. It sounds like you had a lucky break initially - a well paid job. But for a high trade off (horrible working conditions). Now you have to do like the rest of us :)

I'm guessing you were sold the "get rich quick" and "quitting my job was the best thing..." idea. This is an unfortunate side effect of HN... because it largely doesn't work - and certainly not without intense effort and drive.

Your 20; this is a setback, but it's certainly not the end. In 30 years time there is no reason it couldn't be you interviewing with Time, and telling them that this was the failure that drove you from them on - or something (note; a lot of work required!).

And tell the people abusing you to get lost; sounds like they are a large part of your pain/depression & likely what it holding you back.

Maybe volunteer for one of those charity trips - go build a school somewhere away from the people that are getting you down. Meet new people, get new ideas. etc.
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> I think, ultimately, it is kind of like an abusive relationship.

That is exactly what it is. I hope that your posting here will get read by lots of people at amazon that are treated like you were (or worse?) and that it will open their eyes.

One problem of being in an abusive relationship is that you no longer see it as such.
I think I'll ask future job candidates to go through parts of the Dart runtime and find optimizations they could make at their interview. Thanks, Google!
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I've had to start over a few times in my life. Hitting rock bottom teaches you the best lessons. What you learn from this experience and how you eventually overcome it will put you ahead of those people who never take a risk and make fun of you. When events outside of their control hit them they will not be equipped to deal with it effectively. Normally hitting rock bottom has always been a turning point for me. It's where you don't worry about pride that much and do the things you really have to do to dig yourself out again. In most cases I was back into well paying work within a year and on top of my finances again after two years, and better than I have been before. Also, just like the experience you gain with startups failing, you learn how to fail more gracefully each time. You also learn how wrong you can be even if you think you've planned to move on through it gracefully. Next time you'll probably just look for a less unreasonably demanding job instead of trying to create one from scratch, or do it in a partnership with someone who has experience, or find a consulting job where you can start reducing your days over time. But before that is dealing with what you are going through now, the small, hard but pragmatic steps you go through to start earning some income, to start dealing with people in real life again so you feel more confident socially which leads to more opportunities, being able to pay the basic bills so you can survive until that all works out.
There have been evil spam bots executing JS and posting forms for some time. Those sites were already screwed.
"The Dip" does seem to exist. The worst and most painful part of the long distance race is at its end but if you get through that, you feel much better. And in the end you are better after the race than before it, in all terms.
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Apparently Sony doesn't really rate-limit logins (say, per IP), leaving their customers open to password bruteforce attempts. One would hope - but, sadly, not expect - that they would learn...
Given that:

1. Steve Yegge has enough street cred of his own.

2. The article was an insightful and informative piece giving a rare opportunity to peek at the inner workings of two important tech companies.

I conclude that your assertion is most probably wrong.
It's a pity that he chose to withdraw it, it would be great if high profile people like Steve could say stuff like this and stand by it without having to fear for fall-out. After all, the big winners from a piece like this are Google and Amazon, Amazon obviously have some big problems (see Nirvana's post above) and the sooner it gets to the attention of their top level execs the better.

Stuff like this can rot your company from the inside out, and being transparent about it (and even public) can help a lot.
The OP is already hard on himself as it is. You don't need to add to the negativity.
I don't think there's any one single reason why the code base is huge. Its written in proper idiomatic java, so a lot of the code is bureaucracy (interfaces, factories, managers, assertions, etc). The code that was opensourced is reasonably representative of the rest, if you're curious:

http://code.google.com/p/wave-protocol/source/browse/#hg%2Fs...

I think we should have spent more time keeping the code clean; but thats always a tough call when you have features to ship. Its easy to point to lots of things and say they were mistakes. But I worry that, had the project been successful, we might point to the very same things and talk about how clever we were.

A huge effort was put into making the client more responsive in the few months just before wave got cancelled. I'm not sure if its still the case, but at one point wave was loading faster than gmail. We were a month or so away from shipping server-side rendering of waves with progressive enhancement for editing. That made waves load in a snap. (The guys finished that piece of work and put it in the opensource wave in a box project.)

You weren't alone in getting a lot of value out of wave. We used it internally for everything. When we had meetings, we shared the agenda in a wave. People edited the wave with meeting items, and during the meeting people collaboratively annotated the agenda with what was decided, turning into the minutes. It was a thing of beauty. I still think there's a need for something like wave - it solves real problems.

When wave was cancelled, there was a series of honest retrospectives internally on different aspects of the project. I hope they get eventually get published eventually too. A lot of people were quite career-sensitive after wave. Most blog posts you see by wave developers are written by people who have left google anyway.
I'm hanging out with the homeless sometimes. It puts a lot of the shit in perspective.
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I am surprised at how many people got pissed off by Googlers presenting a new language which also is able to be translated into JavaScript. It sort of reminds me of the bashing of google closure library code.

Take a step back guys. No one wants to step on your toes just to give you a hard time. In the end it will matter how good the tooling is and how good the code optimization will be and I think when we look at the closure compiler and many other developer tools that Google released we can expect greatness.

I might sound like a fanboy but I think it helps to see the bigger picture. It is not only about the JavaScript that the 0.0.1 version of the draft of the runtime is generating …