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Open-source is strictly about the redistribution license and the right to fork it and less about about anything else.

Shared-source (as defined by Microsoft's licenses) is strictly about the right to see the source-code, but not touch it.

Free Software is strictly about empowering end-users to make and share derivate works and less about anything else.

This has important ramifications - the pure open-source licenses with no other agendas, like the BSD and Apache, do give you unlimited freedom, including the freedom to not release improvements / new versions.

Basically if you're not happy, you can take Android 2.x and fork it. As an individual developer, you may not have the resources, time or capacity to do that, but Amazon just did.

That's as far from shared-source as you can get btw ;)
Sorry man, accidental downvote. It was actually a +1.

I agree with you, the first impact with the language is terrible, the syntax is too reminiscent of Java. It seems that at Google Java is popular for web apps (GWT, Closure, ...). This must have had an influence.

I still fail to see what are the improvements over Javascript (while they managed to get the syntax worse). I guess a concurrency model, optional static typing, interfaces. Did I miss anything?
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Exactly. Most other web languages have this issue: You start from (1)"Here is how to do xyz. Fun huh" and (2)"Here is how you start working on your webapp."

Step 2 involves getting a server somewhere (as opposed to mamp or $3 hosting). Deciding on a framework (or no framework). Probably some command line stuff. etc.

With php, there is no step 2. Some of what you do in step 2 php programmers might want to do anyway (eg install a framework) but it's not necessary for starting out.

Upsides and downsides to that, I guess (I'm not a programmer) but that is core. If you could take that (MAMP-like installation, through your code into html, etc.) and use another language (including an existing one) I think you would have something.

I'm surprised none has tried it.
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I like the look of Haxe, but the downside is that it's pretty obscure and won't have the same kind of community support or employment prospects as more mainstream options.
Who wants to begin work on CoffeeScript-for-Dart? Possibly call it Arrow or Bolt, although I'd find Dash endlessly amusing.
So? The idea is not to protect your browsing habits. It's to protect the users of your node. They won't leave a (permanent) trace. Of course if they go for your devices they can look at your disks and see what _you_ were doing. Different thing though.

The important thing is storing the ssl key in a secure manner.
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Just go to Dartlang.org it's crashing in safari.
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Classes, types, better syntax - it's all available in JavaScript today, in it's various 'forms' (CoffeeScript, Mootools, Closure, etc.).
Dart isn't a bad language, it just doesn't bring anything exciting to the table (or I fail to see it). Seems like it's ECMAScript 5 but early-bound and with Java syntax. And it runs only on browsers that already support ES5 - this one is really underwhelming.
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There's a lot of server side programming for which Go probably wouldn't be the ideal language. Room for more than 2 languages in the world I think :)
> It means that the generated JS uses modern JS features.

I believe it compiles to ES 3, which is isn't exactly "modern JS features". IE6 is ten years old. At some point, you've gotta cut the cord!
That's a great site! Also, if you're looking for simpler pixel patterns, you can use something I built a while back:

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> AFAICT no type inference.

Not yet.

> No destructuring either.

There's a proposal floating around for pattern-matching that would address that too.

This is still early days for the language, so there's a lot left to be done.
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Bullshit elitist crap.

No one can argue with you because you just claim knowledge superiority that can't be confirmed or denied.

People care about this stuff, I don't care if you don't, if other people do, then it's an issue.
I just got the UK Kindle edition. It doesn't have any pictures! Does anyone know where I could find a print copy?
> Please try and hire people like Oleg Kiselyov, Simon Marlow, Erik Meijer

All brilliant people, but you have to remember that not everyone thinks types are all that matters. I like type systems, but the majority of the world's shipped code was written in languages with unsound type systems.
Surprisingly, it works perfectly on a Symbian^3 device (Nokia C7-00).

I honestly have no idea where the world is headed to these days...
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The misc mailing list is the (strangely named) main one: https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/group/misc/topics. Join and fire away.

> I'm not too keen on using underscore-starting identifiers to determine what is public and what is private.

That's also been discussed. It has more going for it than may be at first apparent, but it has detractors too.
Well, maybe not the basic syntax elements of a language, but there are idioms and techniques, some of which are quite language specific (or, are native or naturally expressed in some languages) and learning them will actually make you better.
This http://www.dartlang.org/docs/technical-overview/index.html

A delightfully blank page :-) Yes it mentions classes, interfaces, optional types, libraries, tools, structured yet flexible language. But all of these are a given. Is there nothing else?

What about Generics, Covariance/Contravariance ? Type inference? Odersky thinks type inference in the presence of subtyping is untenable. Is it the same here? Are interfaces linearized as in Scala? What about immutability? It might be too much to ask for rank-2 polymorphism and Haskellish Type Classes but what about support for delimited continuations? Let me guess, these aren't "design goals". All I am saying is this isn't 1990 either.
I think you have missed the context of his remarks; perhaps I should have pasted more from the original post. You seem to be talking about "what is necessary for Dart to be a viable Web content language", while (I believe) Brendan is talking about "what are the consequences if Dart becomes a viable Web content language".

If the Dart → JS compiler produces "good enough" results, and web authors wind up adopting it en masse, then suddenly a chunk of the web "works best in Google Chrome", and every other browser manufacturer is put into a very, very awkward position. They can do nothing, in which case their continued relevance depends on Google continuing to ship the Dart → JS compiler (and diminishes as users switch to Chrome). They can license the Dart VM from Google, in which case their continued relevance depends on Google continuing to license the VM and we have another large chunk of the Web based on a single binary monoculture (which worked so well for Flash!). Or, they can try to develop their own Dart VM, in which case they'll be eternally chasing the tail-lights of Google's VM, kept behind by Google's head-start and Google's engineering power. None of those options is very pleasant, in the long run, for anybody who doesn't own Google stock.

As Brendan's original comment points out, this choice is not unique to Dart. Currently browser makers have picked option 3 ("write our own") to deal with V8, option 2 ("licence Google's implementation") to deal with WebM, and so far option 1 ("ignore it") to deal with SPDY.

Under the carefully-managed tension of ECMA, the ECMAScript standard has become a much more practical language to develop in directly, and to target from higher-level languages — and with the agreement of all the major browser vendors including Google. It's not immediately obvious that a project like Dart is even needed; even if it is a major technical advance, it's a political regression.
The one thing I don't understand is why people work on new languages for the browser instead of giving us a platform (virtual machine / intermediate representation, whatever) to implement languages against.

I mean here in this thread we are already seeing it. Some people like semicolons, some people don't. Some people like a prototype based object system, some people like a class based system. And on and on.

I think what would really benefit us is a platform (like a JVM for the browser with a great API replacing the dom) where people could implement languages against. we would get

1) A lot of competition of languages (see what is happening on the JVM right now... Clojure, Scala, Groovy ... you name it), hopefully giving us better languages. Javascript has its strenghts but could you imagine that in such an environment a language that doesn't allow you to test whether or not something is a string would make it very long?

2) People could make their choice and be happy. Then you can program the server and the client in the same language, which is pretty much the main argument for server-side javascript.

Let the languages compete instead of giving us one and now another language for the platform!
The language could require that inferred types are consistent.

a = 1
a = "1"; // error
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Well to be fair, the language it is replacing for the most part works, it's mostly just patching up problems: ability to optimize for startup performance, ability to program in the large, and ability to write tools easily (IDEs, etc)

Most new programming languages are really just variations on those that came before them. You've got you're LISP derived, your Forth/Stack derived, your APL derived, your ML derived, etc.

IMHO, it's hard to consider a programming language in isolation. As far as 'feel' or 'productivity', it really comes down to the ecosystem, the runtime and tools available. Here I think is where Dart hopes to excel -- make a JS-like replacement that supports a better runtime and tools story.
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By "timetracking" do you mean getting people to record what they have been spending their time doing? Unless you are billing customers for time, why would you want to do that?

Far better in my opinion to focus on end results (feature X will be ready by date Y) than micromanaging progress by tracking time and assuming that this linearly corresponds to progress made.
Wouldn't "adoption" include the things you listed?
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I'd like to see a graph for man/woman ;)
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And Ubuntu LTS.
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I guess you should have a look at the language spec, there are answers to some of your questions and concerns. (http://www.dartlang.org/docs/spec/dartLangSpec.pdf)

For example:
" Dart supports optional typing based on interface types.
The type system is unsound, due to the covariance of generic types. This is a deliberate choice (and undoubtedly controversial). Experience has shown that sound type rules for generics fly in the face of programmer intuition. It is easy for tools to provide a sound type analysis if they choose, which may be useful for tasks like refactoring."
I am such an expert at reading English that I no longer think in terms of individual letters. Instead I think in words, phrases, concepts, and lines of argument.

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> Well, it's hard to get that much better than that.

Ok, fine, but why have both forms?
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Agree with parent comment. My opinion, so far:

Overall: uninspired. Below what I was expecting. Probably good for Google goals (tooling, migrating developers, etc)

The language is somewhat interesting, but unfortunately saddened by an incredibly boring syntax. At this point, I am thinking that they would have been better off just going with the Go language for this.
Looks like something good to migrate fleets of java engineers to, but not something that would inspire "hackers".

Now I feel like it is not worth to create any "brigthly" IDE whatsoever. Just go with eclipse.

I was planning to immediately rush to the language. But changed to wait and see now.

Misses:

- Incredibly uninspired, boring Java-like syntax.
- Not everything is an expression.
- Java-like classes, instead of anything more interesting.
- Lacks simplicity, symmetry and beauty.
- Semicolons.

Some notes:

In Dart, you can often create objects directly from an interface,
instead of having to find a class that implements that interface

What?? Why to blur the concepts of classes with interfaces and introduce a quirk? Beauty comes from simplicity and symmetry.

named constructors:
var greeter = new Greeter.withPrefix('Howdy,');

Mildly interesting.

Every type in Dart is public unless its name starts
with an underscore ("_")

I laughed at this. I always have hated the practice to start with "_" for supposed private variables, in languages without true private. I like it this way in Dart. My little favorite syntax feature until now.
This is what JavaScript is trying to be, with the latest revision. They're explicitly trying to make it a better target language for things like ClojureScript and CoffeeScript.
I use Freckle for myself, since I feel I'm more productive if I track what I spend my time (on the computer) doing. It's a bit like tracking your weight, wether you're on a diet or not. Just being aware of it is enough :)
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The problem is that, in order for this to work, your computer doesn't get an NXDOMAIN, it gets a "valid" domain with IP address. It does this for any DNS query, not just web browser queries. As for "happening to conflict with a 13 year old RFC", imagine if ISPs decided to interpret RFC 793 any way they liked. "We're not intercepting traffic your honor. We're just interpreting RFC 793 in our own way."
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pypy doesn't support gevent/eventlet, as far as I know. :(

Not yet, indeed. But according to their site they do have a stackless version: "PyPy can be configured to run in stackless mode, providing micro-threads for massive concurrency". This sounds promising, and could be used to implement gevent.
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After 4 days, this has finally dropped off the front page.

You did good, HN.
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> If every centimeter of the United Kingdom’s land had a house built on it with a floor size of 76m2, the UK could only fit 3.2million houses. The UK currently has approximately 25million houses.

If it can only fit 3.2M houses, how can there be 25M already? Math error.

Also the blog's title is "Could the UK Hold 4.1 Billion People?", not "10.6 Billion" as in the HN submission.

I wish one could downvote submissions of poor quality to negative levels.
Two things I don't like about Dart, just from reading the tutorial:

1. Consuctor syntax requires repeating the name of the class when yor define the constructor. So if you change a class name, you have to carefully find all your constructors and rename them.

2. Instance variables in classes seem to be defined at the same level as class methods. Yet one is an instance attribute, and the other a class attribute. So you have irregular scoping rules based on type (data vs. function). This scares me as it indicates functions are "special" and not first-class types in the language.
Same article as single page: http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/the_spectator/2011/...
Bigger houses with more people per house - better support to look after old people at home or keep young people there while they study.

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Well, scripts like yours go a long a way. The problem is that at some point you'll want more integration and at that point you can either go with puppet/chef - or you'll end up re-inventing them.
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V8 with threading? interesting.
Sure, ok, I guess if they want to hate/ignore him for eternity that's their right. But he seems like an old man with some remorse and a broken heart. Maybe he's actually a villain who really wronged their biological grandmother -- who knows. But total estrangement seems extreme.

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On the contrary, I was able to go through all of the tutorials, follow 2 separate live-tweetings, and start looking into the source before the keynote was over; I'd imagine many here did the same.
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