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This is extremely frustrating, has the login been removed from ai-class.com? I can't get the videos to work (except the intro) and I can't find anywhere to login. I've tried Chrome and FF.

Update: Now the videos are saying I need Flash 9 (intro previously worked). Bizarre. I just went to youtube to watch the videos, unfortunately they are not organized well or queued so searching for them is a pain.

This page at least has them all easily accessible:
http://www.youtube.com/user/knowitvideos#p/u
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>int
bool
String
Object
Why do some types start with lowercase and some with uppercase letter. Why not use a sensible naming convention?

Primitives and objects, it kind of makes sense but I do see your point.
I understand the context and still disagree. If Dart is so much better than JavaScript on Chrome and if its Dart->JS engine does a good enough job of creating usable JS on other browsers that developers are willing to commit to using it to write apps then, well, that's too bad for everyone else, isn't it?

Why should Google put the brakes on improving client side development just because it puts other browsers in the uncomfortable position of having to license Dart (for free, since it is OSS and has a liberal patent grant)?

The same would be true if Microsoft created some sort of .NET->JS compiler with their own VM for IE, or if Mozilla did the same with some new language. As long as they bridge to JavaScript, more power to them. Client side web development could certainly use some of the tools that these different language environments could offer and if it kicks off another performance race to get browser-side languages even faster (especially on mobile devices), so much the better for everyone.

I really don't see how there is any downside (to anyone but maybe Brendan Eich) to widespread usage of Dart unless the Dart->JS code proves to be suboptimal, but in that case devs won't use it.
I will probably do a full blog post today on all the questions asked here then submit that to HN
Wow guys. Google is not aiming at a next gen Haskell or ML. They are trying to create a less cluttered Java and a stricter, more performant Javascript. Judge a solution in context of the problem it is trying to solve. If they got Simon Peyton Jones to design this it would be somewhat intimidating for your average webdev[no disrespect].

I'm somewhat disappointed that they insist on a 90's C syntax. It's like Python/Ruby/Coffeescript never existed.

C'mon Google, you can do way better...
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> leaky and half-featured classes.

This is a common willful misconception. CoffeeScript classes are isomorphic to JavaScript prototypes -- the do precisely the same thing. In addition, there is a shorthand syntax for prototyping objects, if that's more your style:

Dog = ->
...

Dog::bark = ->
...

Dog::run = ->
...

Note that the above will produce the same result as:

class Dog
bark: ->
...
run: ->
...
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There's a difference between open-source software and an open-source project. For example, compare the PostgreSQL and MySQL databases. Both are released under an open licence, but PostgreSQL is developed openly on a mailing-list and anyone can step up and contribute, while MySQL is developed privately by an organisation, with occasional source releases. No single entity has a majority control of PostgreSQL, but Oracle has a pretty firm grasp of MySQL.

Likewise, even though Dart is supplied under an open licence, it remains to be seen whether it's operated more like PostgreSQL or more like MySQL. As I understand it, the V8 project is somewhere between the two, and Android is way up the MySQL end of the spectrum. Based on what Brendan has said, I doubt Mozilla would want such a large part of their platform based on a black box they can't control, and I can't really imagine Microsoft doing it.

I don't think your Unix example is quite fair; the number of Unix systems on the planet is orders of magnitude smaller than the number of web-connected system. Even so, there's still a lot of people working with Darwin in the guise of iOS and OS X, and there's a decent number of computers running non-Unix-based operating systems too.

I'll confess I'm not too familiar with the exact changes planned for ES.next, I just recall Brendan saying that improving JS as a primary language and as a compilation target were major goals in the ECMAScript committee. Maybe it's not there yet, but it can get there faster than it will take to add performant Dart VMs to every browser.

Brendan talks about the specific issue of a standardised bytecode here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1905291 (as part of an entire thread on the topic)
Awesome app. I've been thinking of an app like this in the back of mind for a while. Since I'm usually too cheap to buy music, I often hit youtube to listen to specific songs, but it's always a bit of a pain to listen to music that way. This should make things much easier :)

<Edit>
After playing with it for a little bit, I've got some suggestions:

- Not the most intuitive interface...took me a little bit to figure out where some things are.

- Since the songs are mostly streams from various sources, things can be slow...could use some sort of feedback when a user has activated an event or clicked a button
People in the UK will move house to get into the catchment area of a good (free) school. Not just secondary school (ages 11 to 16) but for primary schools too (ages 5 to 10). That's an investment of hundreds of thousands of pounds for something which (at primary school ages) doesn't appear to have much of an evidence base.

I haven't heard anyone saying "It's Harvard or the gutter", but they're similar.
It's incredibly tiresome in a group, when you can't even bring up a random side thought without people going crazy about it.

Especially once you start to notice they don't quite mean it but just like "being part" of the conversation by drowning it out in praises, to hear their own voice, which is natural, and all very sweet and positive, but it's not very constructive.

It might seem motivating at first, the praise to urge the other guy to continue like that, but at some point it becomes laziness, because you're not adding anything to the conversation or thinking for yourself, just going "yeah yeah great awesome!" and you're not being useful at all, anymore.

It's kind of a bit like what Douglas Adams said, "if their mouths stop moving, their brains might start working".
From the very first comment: "We are in the year 2011, PL design has progressed so much since 1990 that such an anachronism is unpardonable."

It's meant to be a language for web development. Catering to the HUGE, EXISTING javascript dev crowd and meant to work with javascript (compile to, reuse staff) etc.

Can we please remove our blinders for a little while and stop whining that it's not like Haskell or any other flavor du jour?
That's true, but most of modern AI is about designing useful intelligent agents, rather than creating artificial consciousness.
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nice name, nice domain

but i don't get raven's USP
> actually the attribute syntax leaves a lot to be desired in terms of redundancy.

I agree. Considering that you can assign 'id' and 'class' through the main syntax, I don't think it's too bad. Attribute values are Ruby strings, so the quotes work for me. With Ruby 1.9 you should, in theory, be able to use the new improved hash syntax:

a{href: "/ding"}

...but I don't know if HAML has implemented it.

Edit: HAML actually supports a different, simpler syntax for attributes:

%a(href="/ding")

> idiomatic hamlet is much more focused on being a cleaner html for designers than it is trying to be a haml clone.

I know that some companies work that way. We let our designers learn HAML (and SASS) instead. That way they can contribute to the projects as first-class citizens. HAML is simple enough that a designer can even work with conditionals and loops.
Go doesn't really have pointers in the same manner as C, though, does it?

As was as I was aware, you can only have a pointer to an actual object.
Like what? Go is an absolutely excellent language for server-side programming. I've yet to find anything it wasn't suited for.

There's room, I just don't get why Google would promote two of its own very similar languages for the same purpose at the same time.
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It hasn't been the case with Fortran or COBOL, IMO. And both are still used, despite being "dead," to maintain legacy systems that companies can't quite afford to replace yet.
I actually did learn to program without a computer. At that (late 80ties) time my country was still a part of USSR, computers were rare and we had none at school. The programming class we had was meant to be taught without a computer, and it included all the necessary concepts, so we learnt about algorithms, variables, loops, etc.
Later, when I finally got to use a computer all I needed to find out the particular syntax to use, I could program already.
I am not sure though whether my first "real" language did spoil me beyond repair as some claim (because it was BASIC, MSX BASIC) or if does not count, because the first language I did program in was not BASIC but rather some pseudo code.
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One of the reasons that the EU documents work so well is that they're painstakingly written simultaneously in all the official languages. There is not a master copy from which other translations are made. This also means that if, say, the German working group writes a clause that is only approximately translateable to French, both groups will have to re-write their versions so that there is as close to possible as an exact correspondence between them.

Other possible corpuses are mostly literary, which are of course subject to significant rewriting for stylistic reasons.
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The author seems to be Russian; I don't understand why it doesn't dip into vk.com music database. It is vast, and combined with well-groomed metadata databases from other services, it would rock.

There are apps which do - for example, "last.fm free music player"

http://www.lastfm.ru/group/Last.fm+free+music+player+users
Please make the language a nice target for other languages to compile to. Better yet, make a lower level bytecode language that Dart can compile down to as well as other languages.

For example value types would be excellent. Even better would be explicit regions, but I'm sure that's not going to happen.

Also, please fix this:

The type system is unsound, due to the covariance of generic types. This is
a deliberate choice (and undoubtedly controversial). Experience has shown that sound type rules for generics fly in the face of programmer intuition. It is easy for tools to provide a sound type analysis if they choose, which may be useful for tasks like refactoring.

And add proper generics. If sound type rules fly in the face of programmer intuition, that means that the programmer's intuition is wrong. The proper response is to inform the programmer of his mistake at compile time, and not to silently ignore it and add dynamic type checks on every contravariant use of generics including array access! That is worse on both programmer productivity because the programmer expects that his program is type safe when he is using static types and on runtime speed because the dynamic checks slow down all programs needlessly. Dart already has dynamic typing; use that when you want it, not something that looks like static typing but really is dynamic typing.

Another thing that would be awesome is if you provide a compact binary format for code.
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Go allows you to take the address of any value. You just can't do pointer arithmetic like you can in C. That is, you can't address uninitialized memory.
Or even YouTube or grooveshark.
Does the fact that it's open source make it harder to shut down? Seeqpod was also an mp3 search engine like this but it was shut down.

Echonest also provides an mp3 search via its api.
actually one of the plugins does use vk.com :)
One of the design goals: "Ensure that Dart delivers high performance on all modern web browsers and environments ranging from small handheld devices to server-side execution."

Server-side execution...
youtube support will be added in v0.2.0, and grooveshark guys said I should come to them again when I have more users
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Ask HN: How complete must a demo be for YC application at submission time?
Also, do you come back later if the demo server is down ,for instance when the application is being deployed .
There's way too much elements on front page. Idea is good, yet not unique, I'd suggest focusing on design, first by removing 90% of content that doesn't essentially matter.
> I was hoping for something more like Python.

Me too! We already have a very readable, simple and elegant language, let's use that. Anyone know why that wouldn't have worked? (Not using the current CPython implementation but maybe the same syntax but with a different (web-only) set of libraries, that is...)
I hope so. I mean, app itself only searches the web for public sources. I assume you cannot really call this piracy or pirate software since it doesn't hacks anything :)
I second that. Don't buy the snake oil. People get killed running half-marathons that didn't train properly for.

I know people who seem to be able to run full marathons without any training. It varies from person to person. If I was stupid enough to do the same, I'd have a coronary.
In Dart, you can often create objects directly from an interface,
instead of having to find a class that implements that interface

What?? Why to blur the concepts of classes with interfaces and introduce a quirk? Beauty comes from simplicity and symmetry

Sounds like Java's anonymous classes. Quite a useful feature, actually.
Interesting read and an interesting idea. When I was through the first read, my comparison for what I had just read was that it reminded me of 'The Phantom Tollbooth.' Thanks for posting and good luck with the project.
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Cool in principle, but the usability and latency of the app are ruining it for me at the moment. Still I'm sure these will be fixed. Would be good to get some recommendations in there somehow too.

For reference, just annoying me at the moment are 1) menus on side are barely noticeable, 2) menu on side is hard to click, 3) when trying to click menu I end up clicking outside the app more times than not due to latency on show 4) not obvious how to navigate app, 5) whenever I click anything it may or may not happen, and may happen 30 seconds later while I'm doing something else, 6) I'm not sure if the Download button is working, nor where it is downloading to if it does. On the plus side, when I did eventually get a song to load it played the correct song so could be a cool YouTube alternative.
I don't see any reason why the syntax of a systems language couldn't be the same as the syntax of a web language. They can have different libraries available to them for example but syntax doesn't have to be different.
Checked this out and have a few thoughts. I wasn't expecting a full browser interface (specifically, tabs, etc). A site-specific browser, to me, is not a browser replacement, but rather an alternative application for a specific site. The moment you add more than one site to a SSB,it defeats the "site-specific" aspect. The reason I used Fluid or Prism (other SSBs) is that I get separation of browser instances for each of my webapps. With Raven, this seems to get "lost". I do like what they are calling the smartbar, as it adds quick shortcuts to various areas of the webapps that are running. This is nice, but again, this detracts from the SSB aspect. At least you can hide it, unlike other apps using this UI concept. The other thing that I feel is missing, or at least I could not find easily, is a way to install userscripts and userstyles. For me to switch to a different SSB platform, I would need to be able to bring over my customizations. Other than this, the app UI is nice, the icon is nice, the name is nice, and the domain and website are nice. Look forward to seeing where this app ends up in the long run.
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Paul Krugman, in the 90s, was brilliant. Unfortunately, I think realized that greater fame, influence, and wealth comes from partisan hackery. He still has important thoughts to share, but his signal/noise ratio has degraded.
That was not a flippant remark.

Lines of code are clauses not sentences. This is also true of poetry.

A sentence is more akin to a stanza in poetry, and a function in code.

While I could entertain an argument for lines ending in commas and for functions to end with periods there is no reasonable argument for lines to end with periods (is there a language where a line is equal to a function?).

APL, and to some degree Perl, are examples of languages where to you might consider a period half-way through a line.
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May be you are right.I just judged the book from the excerpt. I do not have children so do not really know.
There is something magical about programming languages, and I just felt motivated to continue studying PLP.
Thanks for your feedback :)
1-4. ok, that seems to be the biggest problem, everyone is not happy with it >_>
5. hm. can you provide more precise example? may be even create an issue in github?
6. it's not implemented yet, sorry. will be enabled in next update :)
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Text aligning for content on blue stripe could be left, I think.

And I'd placed those bullets representing slides below/above content. It takes time to find it.

BTW, app seems pretty beautiful.
Perhaps just not have them ready yet? Who said Google wants "quick adoption"? The SPECIFICALLY state on the language page that its design is in flux and they ask for user input to improve it.
What does "boring Java-like syntax" mean? Can anyone show some quick examples of a boring and a not boring syntax?
The context is programming, not writing.
To be fair, my monitor IS calibrated and those two patterns are very dark here. I have to look quite closely to make out any detail.
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Server side != systems programming.

Think server side web programming.

Is PHP/Ruby et al a "systems programming language"?
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But the thing is, they are not primitives:

> Although you might expect int and double to be primitive types, they're actually interfaces that extend the num interface. This means that int and double variables are also nums.
Yes part phantom tollbooth and patr lewis carroll. With a Dash of Diamond Age-esque Primer. I don't know, but I think my 8 year old daughter might rather like this.

Tempted.
I wasn't suggesting exclusive use of linebreak… Semicolon with no linebreak is fine, but semicolon + linebreak is 100% additional cruft. One or the other. Say it once.
While looking through the sample code I found this gem:

static bool isVm() {
return 1234567890123456789 % 2 > 0;
}

Funny enough in javascript 1234567890123456789 % 2 == 0.
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Requiring a function for a simple print statement, perhaps? The demo breaks when you remove the surrounding main() loop.
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It also has thermal protection built-in. I've also tried to overclock my handset to the highest allowable speed under CM7. It rebooted and the only cost was 5 minutes of my time.
Ah, the good old United States, where safety is more important than freedom.
That's almost exactly what coffeescript is.

With Source Mapping in browsers, it also means you'll be able to get a .coffee line in your tracebacks too.
When it comes to startups I'm not sure you can prioritise things like this over actually working on your product.

Also, if you're measuring and refining your estimates, they stop being 'estimates' and become something far less useful. If you have problems with estimates being inaccurate, try not estimating.

There are far more interesting metrics to measure rather than flogging a dead horse.
A mistake that should not be made again.
> In fact, if VM is not much faster, why would they have it at all?

Google hasn't made dart so we can make our web apps faster. They made dart because there's a lot of java developers at google who believe that its easier to write monolithic javascript applications (GMail, G+, etc) using a language like java.

They believe it enough that they will try to convince others to follow suit.
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What do you mean by "server side programming"? That's a pretty wide net to cast. Do you really think that Go is the ideal language for every bit of code that doesn't happen to run on a client of some sort?
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I have little knowledge of the latest trends in programming languages, but if your example of a good PL theorist is someone who designed LINQ, then I am going to have to take your opinion with a grain.OfType(Salt).Where(m => m.Value.Contains(nothing)).ToList<Salt>().OrderBy(m => m.irrelevance).FirstOrDefault<Salt>();
I didn't mean that CoffeeScript classes don't cover prototypes —but the other way around: prototypes can't implement the whole typical class abstraction (encapsulation, etc.). So I think CoffeeScript would do better implementing a completely new syntactic abstraction over prototyping that fix all the JavaScript awkward ambiguities than adapting classes to prototypes. But it's still OK, I like and use CS classes.