skysight-inc/HackerNews huggingface dataset:
1. Not necessarily, as shown here, Google has a separate optimization step. If you look at the other posts you will see that using other google products, such as closure compiler/etc will make this all significantly smaller. This makes sense. Have the guys who know how to make JS small work on that problem, thus benefiting BOTH hand rolled JS code and Dart-compiled JS code. If not you are eternally having to do merges of the product, the possibility of being on a stale copy, etc.

2. The reason for spitting out "inefficient" code is already described in my post. This is inefficient for Hello, World. That's fine, it may be the proper tradeoff for efficiency in more complex code. Take CocoaTouch for example. If you write a HelloWorld app for iOS and profile it, you could say "why on earth is this app reading in preferences, sending out didLaunch delegate messages, etc etc etc. Doesn't the code KNOW I don't need that and all I want is to show one string". This is an acceptable tradeoff, because all those things its doing are useful for more complex apps. No one is shipping HelloWorld, so who cares if its slower than the best possible HelloWorld? Is it possible to write a compiler so smart that it would even make HelloWorld super small and fast. Sure, maybe, but those engineering resources are much better spent working on problems real applications face. I'd much prefer Apple focus on scrolling performance than HelloWorld. And similarly, I much prefer Google focus on the problem of writing huge web apps that still perform really well, since thats the remaining unsolved problem for the web.
Which is a one time cost - and roughly the same you pay for including any other framework out there.
> If you run this through closure-compiler it's reduced to 2000 lines which is nothing next to Underscore [...]

Underscore is under 1000 lines unminified and with all comments.
It's official now: Dart is meant as a practical joke to show why Javascript needs to be replaced by something sane like a bytecode VM.

Either that, or I don't want to surf this internet anymore.
I think the point being made is that antisemitism has been around for thousands of years, and the groups you're talking about have been around for 100. So they don't explain anti-semitism.
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That's what the headline reads now - what was it before?
And just for another comparison: The MVV (Munich Transport and Tariff Association / Muenchner Verkehrsverbund) serves 2.6 million people (Munich and the greater Munich Area). The S-Bahn (commuter trains) lines are 442 km, the subway lines 103 km and the tramway is 75 km. There is also the bus with 457 km on 66 lines in the city.
(I've ignored buses for the outer regions and the option to use trains to reach the city from suburbs).
If Dart ever replaced JavaScript then most code would probably be running under the native implementation and this issue would be moot. I think its acceptable for them to be focusing on the actual problems on the web (writing large maintainable applications), and not focusing too much on image swaps and console logs.
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you say that like GWT is somehow bad!

I think GWT is a great piece of tech. To be honest, google has way too much NiH syndrome, even internally...
I think I'm paying a price for having a linkbait title. I don't honestly think this is a web vs native issue at all. I think that native has had too much power and that apps 'must die' as they suck up all the oxygen. It blinds people from seeing alternatives. That's my point, we have to be able to explore alternatives and the current native app silo approach will make JIT interaction impossible.

As to the people on this thread that think JIT interaction is a privacy nightmare, i never said these things would install automatically, this has to offer itself when the user requests it, i.e. I want to look at THIS bustop now. All I'm talking about is reducing the pain threshold to getting to functionality. That's all. It's not as sinister as you make it sound.
Agree about backspace. It is hands down the worst short cut of all time. I have been completely F'd over by it more times than I care to remember.
One of the key things I feel like I learn from Steve Jobs is that while he may have been niche-focused at one time, he seems to me to have either intuited, or rapidly learned, that actually there's a very broad audience that values high-quality products. It's easy to forget that the "cheaper is better" pessimistic view of consumers is very strong, and that can become very cynical in a product company.

Deciding to trust the good judgment of your customers and put faith in your ability to appeal to their sense of value, rather than simply their cost-watching ability, is a brave and bold move. I think it is awesome that it turns out to pay off.
The demise of quality content on the web
> I don't understand why Dart is supposed to be good

It's like Go: "It's from google, so awesome by default".
Whatever happens with G+, I hope it stays around. It's twitter with longer posts, and facebook without the idiots. Aside from the network effect not having kicked in yet, it really is an ideal service for me.
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The picture and some informations: http://jalopnik.com/5475537/decades-before-the-ipad-steve-jo...
dart isn't trying to be a faster javascript.

It isn't trying to be a javascript, but it's certainly trying to be faster. Performance features prominently in every statement of their design goals. Not only that, but performance in all modern browsers - i.e. including the ones they don't control and won't ship with a Dart VM. I don't see how they can possibly pull that off. Can anybody?
Every now and then managers get the idea that they can outsource a programmer's job: be it to untrained workers who churn out code or by buying into the latest code generation techniques being sold by big vendors. They think "ok we've solved the problem once, lets just describe it so that we can hire 500 programmers to do it 500 more times!"

The thing is that the very definition of 'computer programmer' is to do the part that cannot yet be simplified or automated. Every good programmer has an automation toolbox full of languages and data structures and will replace anything that can be simplified to a set of rules with running code.

There is a certain job security in programming but it means a life of continual hill climbing.
This is a question that has been bothering me for a while now. I think we have a cultural problem, as a society, with automation. In the industrial world, wealth creation is being decoupled from (human) work through automation. In the social world, trading work for money is still the primary way of obtaining wealth. At some point, this is going to be unsustainable (many argue it already is). Personally, I thrive on automation. I love building machines and writing programs that do work I believe too humiliating, boring, dangerous or difficult for humans. But I keep encountering people who seem to spend most of their life looking for their next temp job. I can figure out a number of alternative income sources for myself, but I try to think of some for them and it's not easy. I'm not sure what can be done here.
It's speedy again after reloading the page and typing the slide number to continue with into the slide number box--at least for a little while.
They didn't have to start http://webkit.org and run it as a public open source project. They did far more than simply comply with the GPL.
When you look at how much effort and time Apple has put into WebKit, I think Apple could have written WebKit from scratch without spending too much time on it.

Remember, Apple had experience web engine developers on the team from day 1. They knew exactly what was needed and how it should be done.
Same results: http://jsperf.com/dart-hello-world-test-with-optimize/2
I take your comment to heart. Sometimes I bite back too hard.

To all those here to whom I've made "grow up!" and similar remarks, my sincere apologies.
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Oh, I agree. I'm the same way (I'm 37). It's just that differences in biology force women to consider the issue earlier than men. I'm guessing that societal pressure also plays a part as well -- ie. parents may push a woman at 30 to get married/have kids much harder than a man at 30.
That's a long list, so probably not. Does Dart have an existential operator?[0]

zip = lottery.drawWinner?().address?.zipcode

Hey look, I know they're not really comparable. They're solving different problems, are at different stages in maturity and have a different philosophy on how to do things. I also think that Hello World is probably the worst way to compare any two languages, but it's a fun exercise anyway

[0] example code from http://jashkenas.github.com/coffee-script
I recall that the headline was worded quite a bit differently when the GP wrote their post. The headline has since been updated.
we built Wanderplayer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FmjEiNV08s

turning your smartphone into a game controller for browser and pc games on any screen (iPad to Desktop to TV)
I aim for quality more than quantity. I try to write about what I know, and read about everything. And I think that making an effort to carefully consider the quality and applicability of my submissions is a virtue.

So, I wrote what I thought was a very innovative peer-reviewed feature to a prominent open source product, which took me a long time. Then, I carefully wrote an article about it and submitted it myself. It fell off the front page very quickly. That's OK -- maybe someone will think my next feature is interesting. But these things take me a while to do.

So, I'm really more puzzled by your comment than anything else. I write some truly new content (in every sense) that is highly applicable, and that gets little interest. A political op-ed piece gets upvoted. And then you criticize me for not contributing to the discussion.
No, for an (modern) HP offering "Cloud" is actually appropriate. Vague, nebulous, rarely seen up close. Never performs a lick of work, floats idly by. Occasionally crashes spectacularly. It's actually perfect branding.
16% of the queries on Google each day are brand new (never seen before)
Actually I must admit I thought it was an MS publication, I'm sure I was getting it with my MSDN subscription... I'm even thinking I may even have the wrong magazine now I'm not sure...

The MS evangelists I dealt with where A+ characters so I guess they just threw it in as a bribe to butter me up and I was foolish enough to snap up free goodies without question...

EDIT: MS do infact make a magazine called .Net Magazine, I was totally confused by another magazine with the same
Not sure if you all have seen this. One of the co-founders of YC, Jessica Livingston, wrote a great blog post on this exact subject:
www.foundersatwork.com/1/post/2011/01/what-stops-female-founders.html
rail is a chicken-egg problem.

why would i take the train for longer distances if my destination will not have buses/subway? i will need my car there anyway, so i might just skip the train and drive.
The article itself could be the basis for a movie.
> Well, we're not yet to the point that barrier between systems and web programming languages to be eliminated.

We are one or two iterations away. Look at this thread. A lot of people were expecting something looking closer to Go. Go itself is an example: statically typed, garbage collected "systems" language. If you ignore the differences in the type system and the slice syntactic sugar, that sounds conspicuously close to Java. And Dart itself sounds closer to Java than Javascript as well. Not that I believe we'll converge on Java, given the glacial pace of evolution in that community.

But the edges of the state-of-the-art are getting closer in this generation. Next generation (5-10 years from now) will be even closer, if not identical.

On a technical note: what exactly do you have in mind when making a distinction between "web" and "systems"? Backends qualify as "systems" in my book and I'd be a fool if I'd want to develop in two distinct languages when there is just one app. Thanks to GWT and now Dart, I don't have to.
The reason they have been persecuted for so long is because they have survived for so long. Most heavily persecuted groups don't last long.
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If everything is just matter, there isn't even a category of "real." Everything is just as real as everything else.
Sorry, but I want web designers to do me a favor and make sites that, even if they don't look perfect, at least don't horribly break in my ~860px wide browser window. Which, I feel compelled to point out, is a full 100px wider than an iPad in portrait.

Actually I would rather use a browser width of 600-700px, as that would fill around half the width of my 13" laptop screen, and be more typographically optimal in terms of not requiring as much horizontal eye scanning, and not stretching out paragraphs into 2 or 3 line horizontal stripes. But there are too many websites out there that assume I have a giant monitor and a browser window that's maximized to fill it.
Does this work with just motion blur or also with aperture blur? It seems like they are calculating the motion of the camera so perhaps just the former.
"both parties are deserving of criticism in this regard"

This is an honest question: is hacker news the place for that criticism? Of course, a site like hacker news is defined by its readers, so if you say "yes" you are at least partially right, and maybe entirely right.

It's just that I thought HN wasn't that kind of place.
hahaha i was just thinking the same thing.

"zoom in on that. good. now....ENHANCE."
Memo to newspapers: Let your readers inside the wall
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Actually, they do.

Assuming that OP hasn't been around for thousands of years himself, I could only point out modern day antisemitism which makes perfect sense. OP never asked for a complete history.

However, if you're going to get to the root of things, you'd have to bring up religious prejudices passed down through the centuries as well as the origin of money lending and banking which undoubtedly cast Jews in a bad light.

This documentary had some good examples as well as an overall interesting view of money itself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ascent_of_Money

Edit: And this is now getting downvoted why? What the hell is going on here?
I'm glad to hear that. I've been hoping that a group pace would emerge. If it's slower than we planned, that's ok as long as it still overcomes friction.
i'm pretty sure that if you do not sweat after a 20min ride that covers 7.5mi, you should seek a doctor. Urgently.

...or you are luck to live on the top a hill and work in a dried lake bed.
CoffeeScript is meant to be synaptic sugar on top of JS. Dart is a language with different semantics that happens to compile to JS. As such it includes a lot of runtime code. More appropriate examples would be Emscripten, Parenscript, or ClojureScript.
I suppose this is more of image sharpening rather than reconstruction. Is this very different from technology on cameras/phones that tries to reduce of photo blurness due to unsteady hands?
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Component based programming has one major advantage that it allows your code to be more organized, consistent and reusable. A component, in its simplest form, may be defined as one or more classes that are compiled into a separate DLL assembly file....
I agree CoffeeScript has nicer syntax, but it retains all of Javascript's semantic warts. Whatever quibbles you might have about Dart's syntax (it's young yet!) it's semantics are much nicer than Javascript.
"... and ROTATE"
You don't know how to represent a rectalinear shape with only 3 sides? Man, you really are behind.

... kidding :)
So this includes the full Dart runtime library compiled to JS, and people make a big deal out of it being a long listing.
Really laying into me now at -11.

Not sure how my points weren't completely relevant. They were.
What's the solution to this problem? Google search makes the extremely complex problem of finding content a simple text search. Have they oversimplified it to a system which can be scammed?
The Dart VM buys you sane numeric semantics (integers and floats and bignums). Dart is also quite a bit less dynamic and introspective than JS, which should make it easier to optimize.
So who shot Kennedy?
these are good slides. just realized that buyosphere is the same as pinterest.

one succeeded and one didn't (or maybe hasn't yet?). my first observation about buyosphere is that the name itself drives users away. to the user, it kind of sounds like spam, a site where they have to buy stuff.

and..."pinterest" is resonates better with the user.

so give a choice, i'd probably choose pinterest, even though the two sites you could say are similar.
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Name one framework as heavyweight as this.

Underscore.js and Backbone.js put together are 1/8th the size of HelloDartTest.dart.app.js.

jQuery plus dozens of jquery.ui plugins can come close in size, but that actually does a lot. This boilerplate doesn't seem to have much functionality in it.
I have mixed feelings about JS and most software, but moreso JS than, e.g., Unix (BSD kernel code in the late '80s, not to date myself too much).

People seem to think I have some big ego investment in JS, but it's this thing I did in a hurry, but with a purpose that caught on when the web was young and growing fast. JS is not done, yet it will be hard to replace.

JS is easier to extend than some here claim (and as my recent comments have noted, not all the parties on the record asserting that it's hard to "fix" are truly giving it their best effort). As with most web standards, you can't remove stuff predictably, but new and more winning extensions can help retire worse old forms.

Business may be WAR but the modern browser era is marked by claims of peace and openness and standards conformance. So while Dart, and (I joke; I hope this doesn't happen) matching novelties from Apple ("Flechette") and Microsoft ("Javelin"), will take some attention off the standards, the forces operating in favor of standards will probably manage to keep JS evolving.

I actually miss some of the Googlers who have worked in TC39, or around the edges, but who are now full time on Dart or other projects. It seems like a lost opportunity to me, but it's Google's call.
To a compiler, a well-written program with a typo (e.g. a missing ampersand (&& -> &)) can look very similar to a badly-written program.
I thought it was an indictment of ridiculous comparisons...
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Let me load the specially constructed set of parameters specific to this image so that when I do the next step you get a really clear image.

That was a little too hand-wavy. I'm a little dubious until I see what went into that phase.
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"Palestinians in Israel" Well, the big questions of our time are: are the Palestinians actually oppressed? Who's oppressing them? Does finding out the truth even matter?
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The most interesting thing about caching is that you also get support for 304/Etags/Last-Modified - which is amazingly useful for any application that might hit the same URL more than once. I'd vote for that logic in requests core, with caching as a key/value interface (ship an in-memory or file-based default, but make it easy to hook in memcached/redis/etc ala Django).
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This is quite different from the "Fuck Michael Dell" story posted by Gruber. Did Jobs in fact never say that?
There's also the work that Apple did on LLVM/Clang, as well as Grand Central Dispatch. They weren't obliged to release that.
> Here it is 14 years later.

Indeed. Also telling is a lot of the stories on folklore.org - You see a lot of what was described in this article, from yet another unique perspective.
Well for users with fringe case scenarios such as yourself most modern browsers have client side style sheets.

As for the iPad... it scales websites to fit its format, so I'm not sure what the issue if there.
New York Times story on one of the guys mentioned in the article (Joe Engressia):
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/20/us/20engressia.html
If he had lived then, he wouldn't have requested a visa. People smart enough to be on hacker news would also be smart enough to build a simple hot air ballon, or use any of the other was to escape detailed innthe museum at check point charlie.
Always when I think I got a good idea, someone else did it already ;)
Sounds interesting.
Voice from a educator from China! You are right, but we are trying hard to change this. First thing I want my students to do is to forget about their scores.

Actually, I really want to go one step further, and suggest giving up their degrees in order to be really educated!
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There is a legitimate point here though. If I'm a developer working on a new project, and I'm dissatisfied with JavaScript, I have a couple of options. I could try Dart, which will cost me a significant amount of performance in all browsers that aren't Chrome, or I could go with CoffeeScript, which will have good performance in all browsers (including Chrome, since Chrome will be forced by the other browser manufacturers to keep its engine up-to-date). For me that'd be an easy choice, unless one of three things happens:

(1) Dart's performance is so much better than that of JavaScript that it's worth sacrificing performance in every other browser to get hugely better performance in Chrome. That seems unlikely to me, but maybe it's possible.

(2) Chrome ends up with 90%+ market share, so it doesn't matter that I'm bad in all the other browsers. But I can't see this happening as long as e.g. iOS is around and relevant.

(3) I have the resources to write both a Dart version for Chrome and a CoffeeScript version for older browsers. At this point, Google has strictly made my life harder than it would have been otherwise.

I do want to give Dart a fair shake, but I'm having a hard time seeing how it could realistically succeed.
Now that is a feature I would upgrade for.
how do you know that this isn't due to the (small, even if we're being charitable) size of the community rather than a G+ design choice? if it's the former rather than the latter, your days of liking G+ are numbered.
People have been not liking jews for waaaay longer than a mere hundred or so years. Therefore, neither of those things can logically explain the bulk of anti-jewish sentiments.
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