> 'better than Google', after Facebook the #2 privacy violator on the plant isn't much of a bar.

And it is the only bar to clear. Here's the list of browser makers we have right now:

- Google

- Microsoft

- Apple

- Brave

- Some people off someplace trying desperately to make Gecko secure.

- Some people off someplace trying desperately to make V8/Electron/Chromium competitive on privacy.

- Some proprietary stuff like Vivaldi that's also based on Chromium.

- Mozilla

Mozilla wins that fight. They are still the gold standard by virtue of nobody else being able to make a competitively private browser.

> Mozilla claims to be that company

Even with its faults, Mozilla is still completely accurate in claiming that they push meaningfully harder for both privacy and user agency on the web than other browser manufacturers. Now, as you say, that may be a low bar to clear. But given that no one else is even trying to clear the bar, that is still a meaningful difference between Mozilla and its competition.

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I think the biggest issue I have with these kinds of debates is that there's never anything constructive or new being offered, it's not even pointing out a new criticism. I know about Mozilla's failings as a company, you're not illuminating anything for me on that front, I know about all of their controversies. So you've identified that Mozilla could be better, great. Now what?

There's value in pointing out problems when it actually draws attention to an issue, but everybody on this thread knows what the issues are with Mozilla. And it is still obvious that Mozilla is noticeably better on these issues than the rest of the browser market, and that Mozilla is still doing quite a lot of good in that space. You're commenting on a thread of people who are pointing out Mozilla's flaws and telling it to do better -- and you're putting those people down and calling them naive.

Well, if pointing out Mozilla's flaws and telling them to be better is a waste of time, what would you propose instead? Moving over to Chrome? Pretending that indie Gekko projects have the resources to be private or secure? Giving up on the entire thing and not using the web anymore? I mean, drop a donation link to Servo, do something other than snubbing people for caring about trying to make the web better. You have exactly one available group of allies in this fight, and your response to that is to call them naive and say they're not good enough.

You're talking to someone who likely agrees with you on the vast majority of your privacy stances, and who is actively criticizing Mozilla right now, but that's not enough unless it's paired with despair and a complete dismissal of the company? Don't you see how that's unhelpful? And it's not even accurate: Mozilla may have "fallen", but they are still overall doing more good than harm in this area and they are still producing the best browser for privacy on the market. There's a huge lack of perspective in the doom-and-gloom takes, they're just as narrow and selective as the the view that Mozilla can do nothing wrong -- it's acting like all of the recent work on ETP and supercookies just doesn't exist or something, it's as if DoS or multi-account containers were never made. The Tor Uplift project only started in 2016 and only went live in mainline Firefox in 2019, but sure, Mozilla isn't doing anything for privacy now.