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Rust has and “advantage” here that it’s not generally shipped with your distro’s package manager. I think my biggest problem with this article is that the distros put Python there in the first place, and all of them apply patches to make Python work how they want it. And when it doesn’t work, it’s Python’s fault…? I mean yeah Python can definitely do something to make distributing Python easier, but it can only do so much without distros’ direct involvement.

I’ll add that most of Linux distro packaging contributors are generally very nice people, understand the problem at hand, and are very open to collaboration. But sometimes you see this kind of “it’s all your fault” complaints and it’s doing exactly the opposite of helping the cause.
I'm not sure NPM is a good example of anything, with its insane dependency chains and the barrage of security issues.
Tangential art, in which one gentleman modified a Toyota to run off of municipal transit power lines in San Francisco, United States: https://thebolditalic.com/hacked-prius-running-on-muni-power...
I always wonder how those lucrative corporate sales happen.
Somewhat related: I got a completely new angle at the formative years of civic society from David Graeber's new (and last, sadly) book [1] "The Dawn of Everything".

Surprisingly, there are also many enlightening bits and pieces in Hillary Mantel's collection of reviews for the LRB [2]. Plus her writing is among the most powerful I've ever read in English.

[1] https://www.harvard.com/book/the_dawn_of_everything/

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/oct/17/mantel-pieces-...
Money skimmed from the Pentagon budget is money not spent actively blowing up poor brown people abroad.
I have a term for it, "Pepla". People who cant taste the difference between Pepsi and Coca Cola. I used to joke about this 10+ years ago. Until there are lots of YouTube video showing people really cant tell the difference.

I find this funny on HN because up to ~2017/18 the mainstream HN view was all these so called "taste" were people being mentally manipulated by advertising. There is no such thing as "taste", as PG's Dad said. And then gradually, somehow, HN changed. We have this [1]

>> Having taste makes you require more dollars to get the same level of satisfaction

I have carefully avoided trying excessively high quality things because once I've experienced something truly luxury then it becomes an ongoing expense to keep up that level of experience. The irritating part is that before I was perfectly happy in my ignorance of something better being available out there, but aftewards I feel like I'm "ruined" because I'm constantly disappointed and frustrated if I can't keep up the level of quality.

There are lots of people who couldn't tell the difference between 120hz screen and 60hz screen. High PPI and low PPI. Prime and Choice Ribeye. French Butter and Margarine. I mean lots of nerds only compare "spec", and fail to recognise there are lots of things beyond spec and numbers.

>One could argue that Steve Jobs was a product supertaster.

And that is why he was the low paying Beta tester and a yardstick of quality. And that was the reason why he was hard to work with. Most people simply dont have his "taste", at least not anywhere near the bar of Steve. And that is why we now have UI design decision devalued into A/B testing. Having an objective measure to prove something. In reality, without people demanding excellence, quality will quickly drift to the average of the team's taste. The results of design by committees.
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The fundamental problem is the difference between Curated and Uncurated packaging systems:

- Linux dictros have curated packaging, often outdated but stable.

- PyPi, NPM, and others are Uncurated, anyone can publish, could be unstable, could be insecure.

It's down to the developer to decide which route they want to take, and at the moment most want to move quickly with the latest tools. To do that you have to go the uncurated route. It only becomes an issue for a developer if their software is published by a Linux package management system, but 99.9% of developers will never have that.
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writing to government(s) isn't going to do much, I believe.

Denial of policy renewal - if thats what you are saying is happening - is indeed illegal. Instead of wasting time, you should file a writ petition in your jurisdictional High Court, and make sure your lawyer does not let the matter go on for "date after date". If you can't afford a lawyer, this is something you can try to file on your own - High courts tend to take dim views of such behaviour by companies, and don't stand too much on ceremony. There are people called "law clerks" that operate on the High court campuses. They are the ones who do all the paper work for all lawyers (excluding actually drafting) - and they tend to be underpaid. Find one of them who is willing to help you unofficially for a small fee - this will help you take care of the basics (you need this form, so much fee stamps, this signature here, etc etc - this is needed to just get the matter before a judge). Once it goes in front of a judge, plead your case in normal speech, respectfully, without theatrics, and state the remedy you are seeking.
I’m not saying it’s ideal, but in the face of entrenched NIMBYism, often masquerading as high-minded progressivism, something is better than paralysis.
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> All decisions related to dependency choices fundamentally belongs with upstream.

No. As a user I want dependency management (and all of software distribution, to be honest) to be handled by the party that's best able to keep things working while at the same time keeping them secure. Linux distributions have a much, much better track record at that than most upstreams.
I initially read “restrict” as “prohibit” and felt my blood rise. No harm I suppose so long as I can still do it in certain specific circumstances.
I can see that the appflowy repo has a build folder for Windows, so if you're using Windows you can try compiling it? Flutter is pretty easy to set up and compile.

FWIW I'd be interested to see how much work it'd take to add linux support, since in my (albeit basic) experiments with Flutter it didn't take much effort at all. Good first issue?
> Right, but then just use pip install --user instead of a virtualenv

This seems almost as bad as system python. I suppose it's fine if you only work on one thing, but as soon as you don't, your dev environment will become chaotic and lots of confusing WFM will happen. E.g. this is why npm has a separate node_modules folder for each project.
Nixos/Nix solves all python packaging problems.
I'm impressed how you jumped from me using a reasonable commonsense estimate (deceptive people tend to be less trustworthy) to conclusion that I must be anti-science.

Reminds of the droning crowds who claimed in March 2020 that masks don't work "because there is no supporting research".
I've never heard of "cheated at the emotional level". I don't understand how this could be a thing, you don't control your emotions. You are however somewhat free to act on them or not.
>I think they underestimate the value of specific knowledge

This is the crux of the issue. When it comes to "Knowledge Work" almost every step sooner or later becomes a specialization. For example, I used to sneer at the role of a "Build Engineer" until i was forced to take up that role in one project. The combination of HW Platforms, OS versions, config switches, build flags, magic incantations etc. quickly gave me a new found respect for a job which i had considered "trivial".
It's not always possible to get certificates from Let's Encrypt for local network only services. In a big corporate environment jumping through the hoops necessary to deploy keys or get things into a DMZ can be near impossible. Even if you don't have those issues it is still one more thing to learn and setup. All these things pile up. Try setting up a basic e-mail server on the modern Internet and compare that to 20 years ago.
What happens if your project needs an update, but it will hose the OS? Do you expect someone working in Python in Windows who wants to distribute a datetime package should package for RPM and APT?

I used to think OS package managers should be the end-all be-all, but the use cases for OS package managers are very different from language runtimes. While different Linux distros were fighting between themselves, they completely ignored use cases for projects and language runtimes. Sadly, the result is a mess for everyone.

I think people need to figure out what approach works best for them. I'm of the opinion that any core technology to your business needs to be decoupled from the OS. It makes OS updates too messy and you're tethered to whatever the OS supports. My field uses a lot of Python and every company figured out quickly they need to run their own binaries in addition to packages.

At one company, they packaged up custom RPMs. It wouldn't be a problem to package up and distribute Python libraries. Others had their own package system (no OS or runtime fit their needs). It seems like most people use something like virtualenv.

Regrettably, this means there's no easy answer for people new to Python and the right choice will probably change as you grow. But I really think the answer is Python should come up with something that works for Python and let OSes do their thing.
> Not to mention men get no benefit out of marriage anymore. I mean there was some book I remember reading on reddit from the 1920s or 40s where women were not supposed to reject their husbands advances. Now you could be tried for sexual assault as a couple ffs. On top of this, divorce universally screws over men.

God this is creepy. If someone doesn't want to have sex with you, and you force them to, that's rape.
These aren't for AI workloads, they're for things like simulating atomic blasts.
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Big Query&Data Proc, Redshift&EMR, Synapse&HDR are tied to the cloud vendors. You can’t move easily from AWS stack to GCP without refactoring. Switching costs are higher.

Snowflake and Databricks are multicloud. The different is that Snowflake is more like a SaaS solution and only does SQL. Databricks is more than just SQL. It has all the data science, machine learning information, built into it. Snowflake has Snowpark but it’s every limited and so you are more likely to have to buy more products to build out your capabilities and integrate them with Snowflake. With Databricks it is more out of the box in terms of capabilities. Databricks also runs in your cloud account which has trade offs. It can be harder to get going and more complex but you end up with a lot more flexibility and you own your data and have complete control over it. While Snowflake gives you control of your data with their tools, everything has to go through Snowflake and incur their tax to get to it. You pay for simplicity, which many customers are ok with because they see value in it. On the contrary, a lot of customers see value in having more control and options. This market is big enough for everyone - it’s really just about market share.
This is the real legacy problem: Python comes from a world, where only one version of one packaged seemed the right way to do.

I do not have a good idea, but other ecosystems evolved much more sane in the realm of packaging. While not ideal, Go has done a fairly good job - and the "module" operations are instant - which they should be.
Yes it is bloat. But there is a difference in easy to get rid bloat (just delete them in Apple) vs needing to change registry settings, etc and jump over several hoops to remove the bloat that comes with windows
Rust almost does the exact same thing, so I'd say it's fair. Dependencies (crates) are grabbed in source format and compiled locally as part of the build process, and installing Rust programs through Cargo also compiles them (and their dependencies) locally.

Some crates have the same issue where build scripts rely on outside tooling being installed, but it's definitely not common to (unless you're relying on compiling C/C++ code for FFI for example, in which case it's somewhat frequent).
That's cool. Anybody using this? How robust is it?
I've come to see that people are far more complex than what you may think, and that complexity arises from a process of self discovery.

To address your point, the cheating could have arisen from emotional issues that hadn't been consciously acknowledged and couldn't be addressed until after the cheating occurred. If that person goes through therapy and deals with their dysfunction I'd suggest it was a transformative process and you're not dealing with the same person who cheated.

To what degree should you make someone pay for something they didn't do to you?

Haven't you made mistakes and learnt from them and grown as a human?

All I'm suggesting is to be very cautious about passing character judgement on others based on old data. You may be fine with the false positives but it's a lagging indicator at best.
The success of Python and Go shows that people don't care as much about what distributions maintainers feel is "quality packages".

The scale and quantity of software being developed is just too much for traditional Linux distributions approaches. I personally rely on Debian to know that most of the packages I use are reasonably secure. But often I need to sacrifice flexibility and bleeding-edgedness.

And it couldn't be otherwise. There are 339,267 projects on PyPi.org. I bet a good percentage of these are riddled with security flaws. But people use them anyway. How many distro maintainers would you need to handle this workload? Is it worth it? Does anyone care?

It looks like people care much more about experimentation and speed of development than stability, security or coherence and cleanliness of the solution. The author seems to feel this is wrong from an engineering (or even moral?) perspective.

I am also uncomfortable when I have to deal with Python and I have my own favourite few tools... but perhaps if Python users really wanted a single solution then it would already exist.

If you are instead convinced that there is this need and no adequate solution, then congratulations, you just found a gap in the market. Go on and do better than everyone else before you. Relevant XKCD comic is already in the article...
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First of all, just because a tool or project uses a pattern, it doesn't mean that it's a good idea. Second, code generation as part of IDE or one-time setup is something else.

I need to clarify: when I say that "code generation" is an anti-pattern, I'm talking about the traditional, two-step process where you generate some code in one process, and then execute it in another. But Python works really well with a different type of "code generation".

Someone once said that the only thing missing from Python is a macro language; but that is not true - Python has its own macro language, and it's called Python.

Python is dynamically evaluated and executed, so there is no reason why we need two separate steps when generating code dynamically; in Python, the right way is not to dynamically construct the textual representation of code, but rather to dynamically construct runtime entities (classes, functions etc), and then use them straight away, in the same process.

Unless you're dynamically building hundreds of such constructs (and if you do you have a bigger problem), any performance impact is negligible.
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If anyone robustly defending the previous border? Calling it useful doesn’t make it useful.

Ultimately we’re all just giving opinions and a proper study should be done if people want to argue either way. Until then it’s up to the devs as the people doing the actual work I guess.
NIO is installing battery swap stations in Norway.

See https://thedriven.io/2021/11/16/nio-installs-first-battery-s..., https://electriccarsreport.com/2021/09/nio-launches-nio-es8-...
> It says "intended to be used" right there in the law.

It also says "in the manner it is used or intended to be used".

> Would you charge a shove exactly the same as stomping on someone's face?

In Colorado, a simple shove would be third-degree assault, while stomping on someone's face would be first-degree assault.

> Same crime category doesn't mean same punishment. I would charge a big skateboard swing as worse than a shove, and I would also charge a solid punch as worse than a shove.

Guess what? Both a fist and a skateboard can be classified as assault with a deadly weapon!

> You're extrapolating from my posts in an extremely uncharitable way.

You don't need a law degree to wrap your head around any of this. Even the most basic googling would suffice, but you're clearly not even doing that. What you are doing is ignorantly pontificating about something you clearly know nothing about, while making not even a modicum effort to learn.
Homebrew does this very well with its "cellar" system. Every version of every package gets installed to its own root tree, eg `/usr/local/Cellar/python/3.9.7/`. The currently-active version is then symlinked into `/usr/local/opt/python` and from there into `/usr/local`.

I believe Nix and Guix also work this way.
Yes. I tried to use Gitpod (a cloud development env platform) which ships with pyenv. Poetry would very stubbornly only use the system python and completely ignore whatever the pyenv shim was pointing to.
> The possibility you haven't accounted for is "The library ecosystem is like that because things are fast-moving, because people have actual problems they want to solve, and upgrading dependencies and sorting out conflicts is work."

Sorry, I was overly aggressive in my previous comments. All I want is the Python ecosystem to acknowledge some people prefer stable over fast moving, recognize the importance of that and work towards a solution that isn't horrible for their use case.

We all depend on someone somewhere deep in our stack caring for stability, even when we don't realize it.
>>>If you made LA county the same density as Paris, you could house every American.

Where they will get water? How they will get food? How many roads and transportation and wasted energy will be required to deliver these bare necessities? Where they will dump their shit and garbage? I sure hope - not in the Ocean! My wild guess, dude, is that you will still need rest of USA to feed and support that concentration of population. Not to mention need for mental health support, because of encroaching of personal and communal space. People might be very social animals, but they are not sardines.

>>Stop eating meat

Consumption of meat - in particular, cooked meat, only in 3 million years made primates into humans. In that light, abandonment of meat also can lead to evolutionary changes and lack of protein, that meat is providing will affect brains.

Not raising cattle mostly shifts land usage to single culture crops, which are no better for environment and lead to impoverishment of arable lands. The main reason why animals are raised is economy - it takes less effort and energy to raise animals, compared to money you would earn from raising crops - to reach the same amount of money by raising crops, you need more arable lands and resources to maintain them - not to mentioning, that raising that amount of single crops will decrease their price value(because of open market) that will affect all crop growers and in the end they will be impoverished - not some dude in CA, who dos not have to tend crops.

>>>More UK specific

In UK many highrises from 1970s are razed to the ground and in their place are rebuilt family size houses, because highrises are extremely expensive to maintain, not to mention, that in crisis situations they are unmanageable - if there is a fire, then death is in 10s - even hundreds, if there is a single crime, then affected is not just one household and neighbouring families but the whole highrise.

UK is transforming some of the lands of defunct mines into forests, because it is dangerous to build house in place, that can suck it up with all the inhabitants.
Wetlands are contantly exposed to tides from sea - also not viable place to build a house. Well, you can build house anywhere - in space, on the botom of the ocean, even on the active volcano, but it all comes of unsustainable costs for most of us out there. No one is holding you back to do what you preach - on your own expense.

"Housing crisis" in UK is not about lack of houses in a market, but lack of social welfare houses, that can be offered to people, who are living on welfare - and the main crisis here is that such people share in UK has reached significant share among population.
> In a big corporate environment jumping through the hoops necessary to deploy keys or get things into a DMZ can be near impossible.

TBH that sounds like you decided to make things painful and then complain that they are painful.
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How is this different from `tsc && node dist/run.js`?
I think it's more that depending on your point in time, build process and environment, `import` has changed meaning every couple of years.

I consider myself having deeper knowledge about JS and node than any other language, having spent more total time in it than anything else (except maybe bash).

I have a clearer understanding of what import/require really does in most other languages.

The flow-chart complexity and possible outcomes of what `import` really does in JS/TS are certainly greater than anything else I've encountered.

(I do find go's repository-based approach quite frustrating to work with when forking dependencies but at least it's straight-forward)
Have you ever tried to train models on large data sets over JDBC/ODBC? it’s terrible even with parallelism. Having direct access to the underlying storage and being able to bypass sucking a lot of data over a small straw is a game changer. That is one advantage that Spark and Databricks have over Snowflake.
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> Get rid of the requirement that there is only one stable (minor) version of a package in the distribution at one time.

I think this requirement made sense when disk space was scarce.

I think this requirement makes sense if you trust that your distro is always better at choosing the 'best' version of a dependency that some software should use than the software author.

Nowadays, I think neither is generally true. Disk is plentiful, distro packages are almost always far more out of date than the software's original source, and allowing authors to ship software with specific pinned dependency versions reduces bugs caused by dependency changes and makes providing support for software (and especially reproducing end-user's issues) significantly easier.

Isolating dependencies by application, with linking to avoid outright duplication of identical versions (a la pnpm's approach for JS: https://pnpm.io/) is the way to go I think. Honestly, it feels like the way it's already gone, and it's just that the distros are fighting it tooth & nail whilst that approach takes over regardless.