> This feature benefits some people. Even if your service requires socket activation, you can still set the service to startup and you can still control it with normal command lines.

But it's broken by design. It's a bad idea. It's "neat", but "neat" doesn't add value.

> You make this accusation twice, but you give no-one any reason to believe it (unless you think "using an optional feature I don't want to use and which isn't significantly easier to use than to not use" is a reason, but most people would say that it is a good example of flexibility).

Not sure what you mean. Using this feature pushes orders of magnitude of complexity onto users, and greatly reduces the ability to error handle or even know the status of services.

Having a daemon listening to a socket is clearly orders of magnitude easier for end users. It means everything is in agreement. You check if the service is turned on (systemctl or whatever), you check if the process is running (ps, etc), and you check listening ports (netstat, nmap, etc...), they all agree that the service either is or isn't running. And if it's running, it's successfully run its initialization and should be usable.

We already have this experience with inetd-based services. fd-passing is reinventing the past, poorly. fd-passing actually would have made more sense back in the 90s, because spawning a new process was more expensive. Both in terms of code and CPU power that overhead doesn't actually matter anymore for the vast majority of cases.

Again, I don't know what your question is. Is it "why would I possibly want to know if a service is ready do its duties or not?"? Because if it is, I don't know what to tell you.

> Perhaps you're experiencing something similar?

I mean things like restarting nginx, and either it just plain didn't (and thus fresh TLS certificates weren't picked up), or it failed to start up again and now nobody's listening to port 80/443 at all.

> Can you give any examples of circumstances when you choose to reboot?

I've filed bugs, but don't want to doxx myself. Something more systematic is that sometimes after running apt-get upgrade it's recommended that I reboot (for non-kernel reasons). The fact that someone would even write that message is a sign that the author doesn't care.

> Systemd might have been adopted on theoretical grounds. But that doesn't mean that an empirical objection is useless or irrelevant.

I agree. But this is a very common tactic for people who just don't want to have a discussion, too. I'm sure in this case you're saying it in good faith, but you should be aware of the assymetry of asking one side to provide data when the other side has none. And the cost of collecting interpreting that data (depending on which parts of this, what, a human-year?), and the risk of systemd people dismissing that data anyway, because "yeah, I guess the data supports your point of view, but I don't like it so you can fork the repo to implement it if you want. Bye.".

So I'm not saying this appeal to data is in bad faith, but it is a bit naive.

> Group (2) is a subset of people who do not complain about systemd, but you are complaining about systemd. Moreover, your comment slings a good lot of mud, so it's hard to take that as a valid objection. You at least should work to clean up the mud you threw unnecessarily.

Best comparison is that I can complain about the corruption of politicians without inviting an argument that I myself should become one, to drain the swamp.

IOW: I don't have the time, and if nobody else cares, then even if I did then I don't see that I would succeed in a sea of people who don't care about software reliability.