> I don't know, ask his victim

I understand you didn't write this, but this is the context my original comment was made in -- the context of a series of posters who were very explicitly denying the humanity and agency of the prisoners in question. Again, they weren't you, but still, understand that the context I'm talking about and the entry point I had into the discussion was people arguing that denying prisoners mental stimulation and leaving their brains to rot was a fair and just punishment.

My argument was that even if you didn't care about the inherent humanity of a prisoner, you should at least care about reducing recidivism rates, which mental stimulation and job training absolutely does.

And I understand now that you aren't arguing against that. You came into this conversation with a different perspective and you're annoyed that I'm treating it like the same perspective. I apologize for that. It's hard for me to context switch so quickly, but I should have made more of an effort.

But similarly, the perspective I have is not at all that we should treat human beings purely as a means to an end, and I don't think I said anything to that effect; my argument has consistently been that even if someone doesn't care about human beings as an end to themselves or as beings with basic human rights, at least they can care about the society surrounding them. Because that's the context that this thread started in: people literally arguing that making sure a victim was satisfied was the only goal that mattered.

I haven't advocated for any of the extreme positions you're talking about: I'm not saying that people don't have responsibility for their actions, I'm saying that in responding to those actions we as a society are capable of hurting more people than just the guilty, and we have some degree of moral duty to prevent innocent people from being unnecessarily hurt when it's possible and prudent to do so. In other words, if I know someone innocent is going to be hurt, and I can prevent it without taking away the rights or dehumanizing another person, and I refuse to do so, that isn't justice.

So for example, if a person drives drunk and crashes, I'm not saying that person isn't to blame or that they shouldn't be punished. But I do still want to put up some guard rails and possibly save their life and maybe even a few other drivers as well. If they hit into another driver or pedestrian while drunk and kill them -- that is itself an unjust outcome.

So if someone came to me and said, "why are you paying for taxis for drunk drivers, why are you putting up guard rails, why can't they accept responsibility", I wouldn't argue that drunk drivers aren't responsible for their actions. But I would argue that as a society we also have a responsibility to protect innocent people on the roads who didn't choose to drive drunk (again, to the extent that we can do so without unfairly targeting or taking away someone's rights). I'm not arguing the extreme, I'm not arguing that if someone gets pulled over driving drunk that they shouldn't be charged. I'm not arguing that we should just let everybody out of jail, or cut off their hands if they steal, or bribe criminals to stop committing crimes. I'm arguing what I think is a fairly standard, uncontroversial opinion in the context of a thread that said that we needed to keep murders from playing board games because of justice.

From your above comment, I kind of suspect that you don't actually disagree with me on that except in the extreme where it interferes with personal responsibility. In fact, it sounds like the two of us actually agree on a nontrivial number of actual policies (getting rid of felony boxes in job applications, giving prisoners mental stimulation, allowing them to talk to their families, even building out housing/public infrastructure in low-income areas). Aside from a concern that I'm going to lose control, completely abandon the idea of personal responsibility, justice, or human rights and go all Minority Report on the world (something that, again, I want to be clear I am not advocating for), what do we actually disagree on?

Can I extend an olive branch where we just agree that the original context of this thread (prisoners aren't being treated harshly enough by the current system) was a really bad take for both moral and pragmatic reasons?