> If we're talking about what we want society to look like,

Just to be clear, I want the world you're describing.
I don't want the world I'm describing
I just don't see how to avoid ubiquitous surveillance.
It seems to me that either the good guys use it or the bad guys will.

> then I might as well say that in the world I'm envisioning, we don't
have concentration camps or kidnapping or mass surveillance. Let's
imagine that we've figured out a way to get rid of all of it without any
cameras anywhere.

I would love for that to happen.

> But having an end goal isn't enough, you need a feasible path to get
there.

Sure, but I'd say that we already have that in the form of Jesus or
Sathya Sai Baba. If we would just follow the advice of the holy people
we would do just fine. You don't need mass surveillance, or even
government, to manage good people.

> I don't believe there is any possible world where you have perfect
mass surveillance that doesn't result in totalitarianism.

I don't believe that either.

Mass surveillance -> totalitarianism. I'm with you on that.

> I think it is a trade between kidnappers and totalitarianism,

I don't. I think techno-totalitarianism can't be stopped short of either
a terrible collapse in civilization. It's already happening. You're
getting whether you like it or not.

> and saying you'd prefer it not to be a trade... well, great, but it is.

I prefer my life unsurveilled. However, in real life, my phone, my car,
my TV, my electric meter, my browser, my ISP, etc., these things are all
already reporting on me.

Never mind the word "trade".

If you're getting surveilled anyway, you should get the benefits too.

The Chinese are already catching kidnappers in near-realtime.

> If you have an actionable plan to get to the society you're envisioning
then go for it,

I don't. I wouldn't "go for it" even if I did. I'm not the type.

> but in the meantime let the rest of us try to invent
invisibility cloaks, and build E2E encrypted chat apps, and promote Tor,
and legislate/restrict State surveillance, because even if those
solutions are imperfect we still want to try and protect the people who
are suffering under the oppressive regimes that exist right now.

I am not about to stop you or anyone from doing anything. I think it's a silly
thing to do and a waste of time, but then 99% of
everything humans do seems that way to me so don't let it get you down.

(Be aware it's potentially unhealthy. You've heard of COINTELPRO? Have fun
with your new friends.)

> At the very least, even if privacy can't be preserved forever, every
day that we delay the world of perfect mass surveillance is another day
that people like you get to spend figuring out how to create the utopian
society you're imagining.

Just to be clear, I don't think the end result I'm imagining is utopian,
and I'm not trying to bring it about, because on the one hand I don't
like it and on the other I think it's inevitable (or something so bad
will happen that I won't want to participate anyway. I don't have any
children so if the world goes to shit too badly I can go live under a rock
somewhere until I die or something eats me.)

> And frankly, it kinda sounds like you could use all the time you can
get, because I don't see how you plan to get from point A to point B.

I don't. I gave up trying to predict things when Twitter became a thing, let alone plan how to pilot world society.

> So if it helps, think of the privacy advocates as buying you time to
make sure that facial recognition won't be applied selectively against
civilian populations while police officers don masks and cover up their
badge numbers.

Instead of letting people get away with crime, police officers shall be
subject to the panopticon along with everyone else.

> Once you've figured out the laws that need to be passed to make your
utopia, and once they're far enough in the process that they have a
pretty good chance of passing, then we can stop advocating for privacy.

I'm not about to figure out any laws, aside from that, AFAIC you can
advocate for privacy all you want, I won't try to stop you. I'm rooting
for you more-or-less. I just think it's a waste of time.

I mean, let me ask you this: How are you going to know that any of that ("invisibility cloaks, ... E2E encrypted chat apps, ... Tor,
and [laws]") is working? The NSA isn't going to drive by your house and give you a respectful nod?

The sooner we get used to the idea that the only privacy we have is a
polite fiction the sooner we can round up all the kidnappers and
kiddie-molesters and rapists and murderers and other monsters.

We can put them on Antarctica or something.

(BTW thanks for engaging in debate. I don't know if we got anywhere but I'm glad to be able to hash this out with other folks who care. Cheers!)