Sorry for posting this here, this is from a prior comment chain.
I've just taken quite a while to read and then summon the energy to respond :P.
It takes me a while to write about this topic without: a) seeming like I'm insane, and b) not getting carried away with the amount of topics that come to mind.

> Yes, some things are simply impossible. Not even a traditional concept of God, could have or make free will be real and knowing so is from understanding the logic of cause & effect. Not even true randomness can make us be free agents.

Agreed, and good point.

> Although I think randomness is an impossibility because there's always a cause and that can be passionately debated for the theory of quantum physics in our universe. But randomness doesn't matter in regard to free will being an illusion.

Also agree here, I think 'random' is a human descriptor for when prior events are too numerous, or complicated, or not known. I'm open to change on this though, as the delayed choice / quantum eraser experiment is mind boggling - and we know that our intuitions mean next to nothing for determining the truth :).

As you say, even if we did have 'true randomness' in the mix (if such a thing exists, which we both doubt), that would be evidence against us having any say in what we think or do.

> Furthermore, the idea of free will being an illusion made it simpler for me personally to understand harder concepts than before. How humans created the concept of good & evil, but we simply apply it incorrectly and to what we observe throughout our existence.

That's really cool that it directly informs your view on concepts, e.g. good vs evil.
I guess it probably does for me as well, but I 'feel like' it is far down the chain of reasoning for me - maybe because I came across the concept of free will relatively recently (early twenties, in my late twenties now). I think studies have shown though that our 'reasoning' or explanation of how we arrive at a thought are typically delusions anyway, so maybe it does directly inform my views and I am just not aware :).

> My reflection from a mirror has the same control as I do

I've read this a few times and it halted my brains execution on each attempt, haha.
That sentence is really cool - it sounds vaguely ridiculous but I completely agree with it.
I can't even articulate why it 'seems' ridiculous to me.
I have looked in the mirror before and experienced what is tantamount to an existential crisis - I feel like I'm one entity, when really we are composed from billions of cells / bacteria which are also living.
We just happen to have a stream of chemical and electrical impulses driving our every action making us feel like we're the pilot.

> Providing me with wishful thinking that the universe could repeat and where the same conditions that made our life, could happen repeat again & again; with improvements occurring each iteration depending on the starting variables. Maybe like a brute-forcing algorithm. That's the spiritual part I get out of understanding the concept of cause & effect.

That's an interesting take. I think I view it quite selfishly, and given that my consciousness probably (?) wouldn't be involved in the later iterations removes the wishful quality for me, haha.

It's an interesting point though, if we live in a deterministic universe it means it would in theory be possible to have a giant simulation of which we are unwitting participants. Maybe our brain compute while a tedious resource to create / evolve, is actually good at solving certain types of problems the grand architects are bad at :P? I jest, but I think that's why sci-fi as a genre is so cool - it circles around these profound questions.

Perhaps there are 'n' universe in parallel or sequence with the naturalistic laws mutating across each universe. I've definitely read that notion written elsewhere.

I struggle to take anything especially spiritual out of it though. Even when I was in the hands of religious indoctrination I never especially had a desire or understanding to seek out the 'spiritual'.

> There's no reason for me to care if free will is an illusion because it has always been and if life doesn't repeat, well I find that more perplexing than the idea of the universe repeating for infinity.

I think it is truly bizarre that 'there is anything'. This probably sounds like the statement of a 6 year old, but it really does seem strange. The universe encompassing 'everything' is a problem for me straight out of the gate - how can anything encompass everything? How can there not be an 'outside'?

I've watched probably hours of youtube videos trying to develop a math-illiterate understanding of the double slit / delayed choice experiment. Those experiments say to me that we have a long way to go before understanding some pretty fundamental information/behaviours of our universe. The laws that govern our universe seem so complicated and detailed - these are just static rules that exist in isolation to everything?

I'm not really sure if there's a point here, but I just think it would be a lot less confusing if there were nothing at all :P

> Now, the concept of rehabilitation being superior makes the most sense if society desires to progress humanity and to the purest essences of equality. The concept of judgement & punishment being a deterrent, is a fallacy, and just a one sided convenience for the privileged. The ones born into a life where they'll never be judged & punished while the misfortunate individuals born into a life where they will eventually commit a crime. They were needing help from the start and were used & thrown away like a piece of trash throughout life. I find the current day justice system similar to the Salem witch trials. I think any hard determinist Judge forced into caring out the justice system of today, simply punishes an individual for the sake of the health of someone harmed and while the one harmed hasn't grasped there isn't free will. Otherwise I think the person harmed would have a tough time placing the blame on anyone or desiring it.

I completely agree once again here. I would maybe just quickly add that if someone took an action that killed someone you loved dearly, I suspect you'd feel the typical human emotions of outrage and injustice etc. I think this is what I mean by juggling the intellectual understanding with conditioned responses to external events. I prescribe agency to others when it suits me, I think, even though I know we're all pinball's bouncing off the side of the box we're in.

Some people have the most unfair lives it is crazy. To be able to sit here on this website and spend time musing on this topic is seriously spoiled. I'm not even the most spoiled person I know, haha.

> Nevertheless, I'm a pacifist from the understanding and somewhat grateful it happened. I think the world will eventually adapt when it becomes common knowledge. I personally would have preferred to be born into such a society and instead of the current day one if humans collectively cherish equality above all else. My fear of death is gone as well and I find things more interesting than the past.

I've skipped a bit just before this because my stamina is wearing out (in terms of responding not reading). I agree that religion has caused extreme harm to society, and I would not be sad to see it go.

I have a slightly different take on the above though: I'm pretty glad to be born when I am, for fear of us self destructing in the next 50 or 100 years, be it war, or climate change. It seems like the 'great filter' is perhaps just human nature, or 'biological nature' having an upper limit on capacity/understanding vs our desire to reproduce and not having a reward function which benefits a long term civilisation.

I also fear death a great deal. I think it's the journey to death I fear the most. I've always had a complex about 'missing out on the party' / have generally been a hypochondriac. If our civilisation does last substantially longer I would be pretty annoyed I couldn't have lived in a more intellectually curious time haha (not that I'd have anyway of knowing..). But I just struggle to see how we are going to last the long haul. I feel like we need some sort of simultaneous social and educational revolution. Dare I mention the president of the USA, I feel like he is a figurehead for the anti-intellectual - but I'm a bit worn out on that topic.

The reward function of society is completely the opposite to what is needed for us to become a space faring civilisation. We don't see amazing scientists getting crazy amounts of followers on instagram (a bit of a contrived analogy).

Usually I'm quite parasitic on forums - I will and ask people leading questions without every responding hoping to read something interesting, so hopefully somewhere in that incoherent ramble was something you found interesting as well :)

Edit: added asterisks around quotes, the formatting options on this site aren't amazing imo