Replying here since HN cuts us off.

>The bad Yelp reviews is the tip of the iceberg, as restaurants are being squeezed out by the extinguishing embrace of food delivery apps and their fees. (This was covered in some of the links you've elided) The point is that the power of some tech companies backed by big money can lead to destructive effects on other industries. Ridesharing has also been criticized for more than their environmental impact, including points that I've mentioned.

Ok, so your complaint is that you don't like technology. That's fine but again nothing to do with cash flow. A cash flow positive business can still be an abusive food deliverer.

I'm not trying to defend startups. I'm trying to point out that cash flow negativeness is not the problem.

>Point is that the road to an unending stream of ethical violations and scandal can sometimes be seen by the earliest of underhanded cheating. That behavior is indeed hilarious in that it's almost cartoonishly evil and low, like a schoolyard bully. Can't find an anecdote yet, but here's one early report of Uber's growth-at-all-costs strategy incorporating dirty tricks.

I'm supposed to be mad that Uber is trying to hire its competitor's employees? I don't get it. That's not evil, it's just a pretty good idea as long as they are paying their cab fare. Evil would be thinking that once you hire one of these drivers for $5 an hour or whatever that they can't take a better deal with a competitor.

>Fire departments are a non sequitur.

Not at all. It's an example of one of a failure of capitalism. But it existed long before Silicon Valley. Cutthroat competition is both old and good. It seems like you're trying to say it's new (simply factually wrong) and bad (not really supported by the evidence). Competition gets us new technology, good prices, good service, etc. There is a very close correlation between high prices and bad service and monopolistic behavior.

>This excuses poor behavior by suggesting it is fine when larger bad actors exist, which is a fine attitude for you to have, but others may disagree. That said, it's also possible to examine the current VC-boosted culture within tech- or tech startups- itself; are there more ethically questionable startups with flimsier, even scammy business models, than in the past? Other comments have argued that this is a progression on a trend, and not how things have always been. (Though one would think the dot-com bubble was also a time of similar widespread fraud.)

Not at all. I'm not excusing anyone for anything. I am saying that your complaint is with all businesses that harm the environment or do scammy things. You don't have a particular complaint against cashflow negative businesses. I may be having trouble explaining this. Here's an analogy:

All baseball players use steriods. This has destroyed baseball. Some newer players also chew bubble gum. This has nothing to do with steriods or baseball frankly. People are out here with signs saying "Bumblegum chewers ruined baseball".

They're missing the point. Bubble gum didn't ruin baseball. Steroids did. Even if some juicers also chew gum, while true, it's irrelevant.

Cash flow negative businesses aren't the problem. Companies that ruin the environment are the problem.

>Even if the tangible economic impact of modern Silicon Valley and dumb money is negligible in the grand scheme of things (which is a debatable point), it's still possible for those working in tech to critique the business culture, which does change and isn't a static thing. The '80s were remembered as a particularly greedy and excessive time on Wall Street; certainly industry practices can change over time and the shared cultures of those businesses can change for the worse, to the dissatisfaction of those who disagree with it.

You might misunderstand me if you think I'm saying you shouldn't critique your own industry and culture. You are morally required to critique your own industry and culture IMO. But the critiques have to be meaningful. "Uber rapes people and should be punished" is a meaningful critique, based on facts, morality, etc. "Investors and managers tried a certain business model that lost revenue in the beginning to acquire customers" seems like a really bizarre thing to be upset about. No one is really getting fooled. The investors are smart enough to know what they're getting into. Especially investing in tech, especially in SV, especially in 2020. Most new businesses of any kind anywhere have a high customer acquisition cost and almost no businesses of any size are profitable in the first few years. This is not new or particular to SV.

>That's fine as it is your opinion, but that is a subjective judgment and seemingly based on limited data.

I love data. By all means, do you have some data to show that DD is distorting the food delivery market in a way that hurts consumers?

>Then's plenty of coverage about other bad actors, tech is just a highly visible target.

I don't see much. There should be headlines every day about how much oil Exxon and Shell have pumped that day and how much damage that will do to the environment. Why aren't there? Honestly these stories should be every hour of every day. We're watching the world be literally destroyed before our eyes and we're arguing about pizza arbitrage.

>The question is, what is that long term endgame? Waiting for Google to both invent a viable self-driving car AND push through the relevant amount of lobbying and marketing to engender the legal and social acceptance of widespread adoption of autonomous vehicles? Til then, it just looks like they're burning through a lot of money trying to grow for the sake of growth. And making good on their valuation is still a technological and societal quantum leap away.

So don't buy their stock, as I haven't. I don't see why it's a morality play to not buy into someone's business model. I'm pretty sure 99% of people including me don't own Uber stock. It's not a big deal if you want to join our ranks. I'm just saying its silly (to me) to be mad at Uber for engaging in exactly the strategy they told their investors they would engage in.