skysight-inc/HackerNews huggingface dataset:
Out of interest, do you think anything about YC would be likely to change if this did turn out to be Bubble2.0? Would you be likely to scale it back, or to continue funding companies and hope that some of them could ride out the storm for however many years it takes?
We went for a California LLC after doing a few weeks of research. It is the easiest structure we could find with the least expense. We don't know what the future funding implications are for it though.
Beware of hyperbole.
Making America safer: survellance cameras with guns
Like in London, you could have surveillance cameras everywhere. But add guns on them as well to prevent/limit crime.
That is precisely why it isn't a bubble:) When you can see a bubble, you can avoid it while others go down when it bursts.
Yep... and all those CCTV cameras are doing wonders in London right?
I heard that a LLC can be converted to a Corp when you get funded. I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not 100% sure about it.
It is not that the average person will trust google over zenter, as much as the average person, will not even know that zenter exists. Its hard to give someone a chance, if you don't even know they exist.
if you take money from investors they will require you to be a C-Corp. If this path is in your plans, it is probably easiest to start off this way.
I hope to be dead before such a thing is put in place.
I think you're thinking in the right direction. You may also consider how e-mail and calendar use cases are tied closely together.

I'm not sold on how Google can leverage their offerings (aside from better image searching) to make as strong of a case in presentation software as they did with online calendars.
Ok, strictly speaking, SoC is not free.

But SoC stipends are tiny, almost free.

Also, remember that Google vets each proposal, so they're funding those projects they'll be able to leverage in code, people (SoC is a great recruiting tool), or both.

The result of SoC is not so different from what you've suggested.
Believe me, it is possible to write very bad code with Java, and you can see the (huge) differences between Java code written by good and bad programmers.

I don't understand "people will only code what you let them code", how is that?
Dharmesh Shah wrote about this recently: http://onstartups.com/home/tabid/3339/bid/1303/Startup-101-Should-You-Form-An-Inc-or-LLC.aspx
How long does it take you to learn a new programming language (on average)?
startupping.com has had some chatter about this in its forums as well. That site tends to have some good practical discussions like this, and other things as well. It's a nice complement to this one.
Interesting to see if that's what people were thinking in 1999.
Hmmm... Didn't you say something about a Web 2.0 bubble?
Isn't it going to depend on what programming languages you already know as well as what programming language it is?

Even if you took the average I don't know if it would lead to a useful statistic.
It's very possible you're missing the point, unless the users are spamming you guys, which, in that case, would be your fault for not wisely selecting a private beta.

What do you mean by bad feedback? In most cases, "bad feedback" occurs when startups disagree with their users. "You'll see," they say. Well, you know how that story ends.
I went for a Delaware C-Corp. Costed me $300 to incorporate + 30 in annual fees, so far for the first year. This was a relatively large expense for me so let's hope it was worth it.
Ordinarily a startup should be a C corp. It's cheaper to be an LLC, but if you plan to succeed, you may as well do things right from the start.

With an LLC profits don't get taxed twice like in a regular corporation. So it makes sense to be an LLC if you expect to have substantial profits, but don't expect to grant options, sell shares, or get bought. Consulting firms and law partnerships are often LLCs. YC is an LLC.
"engage the user and see if you can get the feature to a common ground"

Yes, this is what I'm asking. In direct marketing for example, there are ways that success can be scientifically measured. I am wondering if any of you have used more methodical approaches to improving applications -- or if it's just guess and find out if it worked 2 months from now.

The reason for this is that I just don't always trust users to think deeply enough of the problem for them to know what they want.
Google Acquires Tonic Systems, Announces Presentation App
I have no idea what features this app from Google has, but from what I have seen so far, Zenter kicks ass! It's not about which app has "more" features, it's about how effectively one can present using such an app.
Maybe I shouldn't have written "average" then, perhaps we can get an impression. And I am not sure if it depends on the programming languages you already know - maybe it mostly depends on knowing at least one language? I know it is all very fuzzy, for example what does it mean to know Java - surely not to know all available libraries by heart. But maybe people here can give an intuitive answer to the question?

My own estimate would be about a week (I can program after a few hours of course, but not with as much confidence as after a week).
User generated content biggest threat to media
Wisdom of unhealthy crowds
Data on Participatory Web
Eric Schmidt Interview
You should be able to get your annual fees down below $300 - it should only be about 1/2 that
I would imagine they would still be trying to get operators to adopt the OS. Mobile is tricky and slow, it's only now starting to open up.
I prefer to think of it as being in the market because you've a passion to solve a problem. There's going to be hard work involved in solving a real problem that people are facing and solving it in a way that's pleasant for the average user.
Google Prepares a Presentation Tool (Presently)
Also the links keep expiring. If I open multiple tabs, by the time I get to some of them all the links are invalidated. IIRC, same thing if taking "too long" to write a comment.
I agree, but how does Google leverage their existing products and promote collaboration with presentation software? Google Calendar worked because planning and sharing events/meetings makes sense to be integrated with GMail.

As I've said before, I think this is going to be a different story because, while collaboration brings a lot of value to presentation software users, I can't see a killer app that Google can leverage beyond Image Search that would make their product a must-have. Zenter has done a great job making a connected presentation app with a very slick Google Search-based image import tool.

Pound for pound, I think Zenter has a fighting chance as long as it keeps innovating on the feature front. Don't forget that collaborative presentations will likely give rise to a slide sharing community (i.e. slideshare.net), so there's more to online presentation software than the app itself.
What exactly is the reporting/paperwork required for a C-corp (which people mention as more overhead than LLC)?
A great thing to do is invite your target users to try the app/service in your presence.

But don't lead them or demo anything; just watch how they start, and what they react to/don't understand.

We had a similar experience recently -- http://blog.seeksift.com/2007/03/02/an-epiphany/ -- and it did wonders for our usability.
I'm getting a bad deal at my startup - how do I renegotiate my salary and options?
I was a kid admittedly but from what I remember and heard, few used the word "bubble" until it actually burst.

I love the following excerpt from an article:
"Do you think that a $300 million valuation of a combined company is realistic?"
"No question," said the older one, spreading his hands.
"The Internet? Slam dunk," said the younger.

You can read the entire thing here: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/6.06/es_burnrate_pr.html
Also, remember that Google vets each proposal, so they're funding those projects they'll be able to leverage in code, people (SoC is a great recruiting tool), or both.

False. Google only approves the Open Source projects which apply for SoC slots, but it seems to me that any established Open Source project can get SoC slots. It's the Open Source project's leaders who choose which of the project proposals to actually fund, not Google.
It's one of those silver lining things. You end up doing your own start-up instead, which is usually what you preferred anyway.

I wonder how many top developers are vanishing from the workforce because their start-up succeeded. A year or three of hard work and then retirement.

Or they end up owning/running some other business, where they aren't using their most highly developed skill, programming.
google n-gram data
From here: http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2007/04/were-expecting.html

"Our due date is this summer."
No, I hear ya. =)

But my question is if few people could recognize the coming of a bubble in 1999, what makes you think they're better at calling one out today? i.e. how easy it is to say "get out before the bubble bursts"
It's the Open Source project's leaders who choose which of the project proposals to actually fund, not Google.

No, it's the other way around; each code project submits a proposal to Google, and Google decides which project to accept or not (I'm part of a user group which submitted SoC applications this year).

The user group ("mentoring organization" in Google's terms) does have to file an application, once, at the beginning, so that Google can verify them, but after that, each project proposal from that user group/mentoring organization is subject to Google's approval.

Just being an established Open Source project does not mean automatic entry to the SoC.
The company they aquired:

http://web.archive.org/web/20060819233054/http://tonicsystems.com/

"Java PowerPoint® Specialist"?
> Younger, more inexperienced developers should be looking, number one, to work with people who know a ton more than they do so that they can learn from the greats

Do you know anyone who actually learned this way? I, and others I know, learned mostly from reading (docs, books, code, tutorials, etc.). Great developers who are actually working don't want to be interrupted every time some inexperienced person needs help.

I also find presentations at conventions to often be painfully slow at conveying information. I can read in 5 minutes what it takes a presenter 30 minutes to talk about, and further, I can get answers to specific questions that always pop up when a presentation glosses over the details. Plus, if I already know something about it, I can just grab the knowledge "diffs" rather than sitting through 15 minutes of introduction.

Google is the #1 tool I use when programming.
This might be of interest to you: http://www.negotiations.com/articles/geeks-earning-more/

It's geared more towards working at an established company, but many of the principles are the same.
While it doesn't mean too much that website is pretty bad. Maybe Zenter does have a chance.
The longer you've programmed, the less time it takes.

But learning syntax and libraries is much different than (for lack of a better word) learning the "zen" of it. You could learn python and just write C-style code in it in a few hours, but it might take much much longer to change the way you look at and solve problems to match the strengths of a language.
google searchmash
More details:

engineer number 6, employee number 8. joined pre-series A

salary: 75K, .5% of the company, location: bay area

engineers 1-5 have lower salary, but 3-10% of company

recent (useless, IMO) VP hires are making six figures with a larger % of the company. they joined after raising series A.
For Algol-like languages it takes me about 5,000 lines written and 20,000 lines read before I feel comfortable with it. A good way to do this is to re-implement some pet program in the new language. That way you don't confuse the work of a new problem with the work of the new language.

[edit] I second far33d. You can write FORTRAN in any language. :) Each language has its own conceptual style, idioms, and so on. Learning how to think in a language is real fluency.
From the source, it looks like this is running on RoR... wasn't YouOS re-written using web.py a bit back?
So, Google did aquire their presentation software.
RE: Caterina, it's funny when people write articles saying not to do what they did. I'm sure there were even more compelling post-bubble lists for why people shouldn't start web businesses in Canada, which obviously didn't stop her.

Of course if you always tell people they'll fail, you'll be right 90% of the time, but you'll also miss every single success.

When it comes to your own start-up succeeding, like Mark Cuban says, you only need to be right once.
YouTube beat Google video by a mile.

Not everything Google does turns to gold.
Definitely! Google seems to be over-reaching. They have a lot of apps and many people just don't know about them. And I thought they were going to concentrate on finishing apps not creating new ones! big wtf.
How can a non-hacker (with very basic C++ knowledge only) start a start-up successfully?
Depends on the Language, but for me its norammaly 2 Projects
I learned ruby functionally in about a month, and fluently (eg thinking in ruby idiom) took about three months of half-time work in it. I wouldn't say I'm a guru yet, though, just comfortable.

Haskell is still kicking my ass after six weeks of spare-time though, so I think it has more to do with the language than anything.
Learn another language, like Ruby
You're right - an LLC is not taxed like a regular corporation. However, neither is an S-Corp.

If I remember correctly from my corporate tax class, both LLCs and S-corporations are generally treated as "pass through entities" (if the appropriate elections are made). Therefore S-Corporations are not subject to double taxation.

Edit - here's more info: http://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/objectID/A30CE890-BBAA-4B8A-AD66A33FA038988B/111/182/241/ART/
I cringed when I saw the $25 million number and I cringed again when I saw what the site was.
Learn to hack? ;-)

There're two possible questions in the title, and I'm not sure which one you mean. Are you asking how a non-hacker can start a tech startup, specifically one focusing on the web? Or are you asking how a non-hacker can start any startup, be it biotech, finance, auto-body, housepainting, or some other industry entirely?

For the first question, you really either need to be a hacker yourself or convince a top-notch hacker to work for you. You can't expect to start a successful tech startup if you don't have good tech. I listed some ways that entrepreneurs repel potential tech cofounders here - http://news.ycombinator.com/comments?id=13000 - and also suggest some things you might bring to the table that might convince a techie to work with you.

If you're just looking to start any startup and don't care about the field, the rule is always "Concentrate on your strengths." Basically, you want to go into business being more passionate about the particular project you're working on than anyone else on earth (or in your location, if you have geographic barriers to entry). That's what'll convince customers to buy from you rather than a competitor.
If anyone has an extra: wotandonato-at-gmail.com Please!
They all came from TechCrunch, perhaps?
Usually if you think you can you can; if you don't think you can it's only harder.
BOy boy. Zenter. I still would not care. Google is just bluffing right now. And it hurts me how many people cannot see that the big Giant has lost its way.
I wonder why they didn't buy Slide or Zenter
Forget about C++. Learn a high level language that has the libraries you need for building an application quickly. Someone suggested Ruby, and he's not wrong. Python is another good choice, though it doesn't have an obvious "guided path to success" the way RoR works for Ruby. PHP will allow you to find a lot of potential co-founders, but it's probably not worth it...at this stage you don't have the know-how to recognize a good PHP developer, and a bad one will simply kill you (PHP is perhaps the best language for writing horrible code--the majority of stuff out there written in PHP is really frighteningly bad). That's not to say there aren't bad Ruby and Python developers...but the barrier to entry seems high enough to keep out most of the riff raff.

Find a co-founder who likes your ideas and trusts you'll get up to speed on whatever bits of the equation he/she doesn't want to handle. In a startup past the very earliest "get-to-prototype" stages there's a roughly even split between the sucky non-tech stuff and the actual development...you could take the non-tech stuff and leave the hacking to your co-founder. I'm quite technical and have developed a lot of software in the past ten years, but I found an even better developer and took on the sucky stuff while leaving him to handle most of the development. It's working very well (though I often find myself wanting to get back to real "work" when I'm doing the boring accounting/marketing/taxes/funding/support/etc. stuff--I have to remind myself that if we reach our goals I'll be able to hack anytime I want, in between rides on my robotic dinosaur, of course).
One of the first American Billionaires once said he could answer any question asked. He called in a meeting and ask each journalist to come armed with top notch questions (of course industry related ), which they did. The day of the meeting they were surprised to see 16 phones at the Great Entrepreneur 's desk. For each question asked he pick up a phone and call someone who then, somehow, provided the proper answer.
If you cannot code, need to start a startup and do not know the moral of this story, then you probably should go sit back and think for a few weeks before jumping into the middle of the ocean.
Seriously? People make that little at these startups? I understand making that little pre-funding, but you would expect to be paid in sync with the cost of living in those areas after the company has been funded.

You can't even rent an apartment on that out there, can you? Unless you have a roommate.

I am not saying I expected too much more, but thought at least $90k for anyone with any degree of talent would be reasonable.

I mean, crap, $90k would still be WELL below median income for experienced software engineers in Silicon Valley, wouldn't it? Salary.com seems to indicate it would, but that could be a biased source.
Who hired the VPs and why? Do the other employees feel they're useless?
Two thoughts for you:
1) What do you want - and more importantly: why do you deserve it? If you can't justify why you deserve more than a VP like that, then you can't justify it (Most powerful words in a negotiation are "where is that number coming from?")

2) What is your BATNA? That's jargon for "Best Alternative for a Negotiated Agreement": if you don't get what you want what will you do? Will you walk away? Is your company f!cked if you walk away?

Hopefully this can frame your thinking.
I don't see it as a big deal but C corps require Board of Director meetings, Shareholder meetings, corporate minutes and corporate resolutions. From what I read, LLCs don't require these things but you may want to do them if your LLC involves more than a few people.

LLC taxes probably aren't much different than corporate taxes. Calculating profit is the hard part and you have to do that in both cases.

Creating an LLC is often just a little bit of paperwork, just like a corporation. It may vary, depending on your state. Since you only do it one time, anyway, the burden in terms of creation paperwork isn't usually significant.
You want to be dead for sure before you might accidentally get shot?
Ok, of course it would take me more than a week to really get the zen of the language...
Oh, and I suppose that the issuing of corporate stock might be considered more complex than creating interests in an LLC. Technically, it is probably not more physical paperwork or actual reporting but the knowledge and burden is probably significantly greater.
It depends on how similar it is to what you're already familiar with. Learning a new imperative language is different from learning your first functional language.

I learned Python so quickly, I used to stare at the 2 lines I'd just written that did the same work as 20 in C++. My brain had to play catch-up since it was used to autopiloting while filling in the tedium.
As others have said, it depends on so many factors. I'm still learning perl (my primary language) ten years after I started. I was writing working code in Ruby after a weekend, and I believe I could be fluent in it within a week or two of working primarily in that language. Python I've never set out to learn, but several years of working with Python projects and developers has given me the ability to patch in what I need in existing projects without a struggle (but I couldn't start from scratch).

It also depends on how you learn it, and who you learn it from. The pickax book is a fantastic book for learning ruby. Same goes for Learning Perl for perl. I've never seen a similar book for Python, but one might exist? For JavaScript you cannot beat Douglas Crockford's videos at the Yahoo! Developer Network. Absolutely fantastic...taught me everything I needed to know to be productive in the language in one weekend. JavaScript also happens to be a great learning language, as it has both functional and imperative constructs and pretty simple syntax and minimal keywords.

Find all of them (along with a few other good ones--Joe Hewitt's Firebug demo, in particular, is what you'll want after the Crockford vids) here:

http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/theater/
Do you really think people would feel safer?
What happens if there are bugs or security holes in the system?

And, even if we assume the system is perfect, would you want to live in such a place?
Another interesting note: In some cases LLCs can be taxed as corporations (and therefore subject to double taxation), if the founders don't file the appropriate form.

Just to be safe, if you're forming an LLC, you want to file form 8832 and elect to be classified as a partnership (if there's more than one partner), or "disregarded as a separate entity" (if you're all alone). DO NOT elect to be treated as a corporation - unless you want to be taxed as such.

Check-the-box regulations:

- http://www.llcweb.com/struc.htm

- http://www.irs.gov/irm/part4/ch47s05.html#d0e501936

- Form 8832: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8832.pdf
No, he means let the Idiocracy world of the future do this, if it's done, ever.
Joe Kraus, founder and original president of Excite, was a political science major. But he had 5 co-founders who were developers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Kraus
do you think anything about YC would be likely to change if this did turn out to be Bubble2.0?

Ya-huh: sell that overvalued portfolio faster than you can say "Common Lisp".
Technology can't solve all problems; crime is a social problem.
Yes...Release the hounds!
Since when is Startup News synonymous with reddit?
Whatever the reason, it still happens. So we need a solution. Technology can at least give us a short-term solution. Maybe later we will have better ways to deal with mental illness for example.
Netvibes Launches Universe-Highly Customized Pages
So true (about Python vs. C). Same with java: I spend a lot of the time filling in straw. Python makes me think because almost every line is actually meaningful.

As for how long with a new language: speaking without quantitative data, I'd say differences in motivation are much larger than differences in languages, for languages with a reasonable set of libraries (i.e. brainfuck and the like excluded).