> Your statement of averages doesn't seem related to parents point, and does not contradict my point.

FWIW, I'm not trying to contradict you, I'm trying to understand you. But, above you said "Here you imply that renters are people who cannot afford to buy a house." I was responding directly to that. Isn't is actually true that the majority of renters are not smart stock/bond market investors, and that the majority of renters cannot afford a down payment on a house, even if they want to, and that's why they're renting?

> I would like to see numbers to back it up. It's very easy to lose track of how much money you spent on your house that you wouldn't have spent if you were renting...

I was talking about the sale price of a house (getting your money back) compared to paying rent (not getting your money back). You want evidence that most housing sales aren't normally 0 and a total loss for the owner, is that what you mean?

It's fairly easy to Google average house return rates, I guess, but I honestly don't think my statement that housing returns aren't normally 0 needs any numbers to back it up. Here's the first hit I see: "Average annual returns in long-term real estate investing vary by the area of concentration in the sector. Average 20-year returns in the commercial real estate slightly outperform the S&P 500 Index, running at around 9.5%. Residential and diversified real estate investments do a bit better, averaging 10.6%. Real estate investment trusts (REITS) perform best, with an average annual return of 11.8%."

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/060415/what-average...

> check out this calculator

Thank you, this calculator does what I was asking for -- it compares buying and later selling a house to renting for that same duration.

To be honest, and just for the sake of discussion, my reaction is that I'm somewhat skeptical about it, and here's specifically why:

- It ends up calculating twice the recurring costs of buying vs renting. It's not immediately obvious that any of the variables are wrong, but the sum total doesn't seem very plausible, it doesn't really pass the smell test. A landlord is simply not going to rent for less than maintenance costs. Renting should be assumed by default to cost more than buying in the long term. All things being equal, the maintenance costs are the same, the difference is the landlord's markup.

- For everywhere I've ever lived (CA, NY & UT), the price that it calculates for rent as "equivalent" would not be able to get you an equivalent house, not even close. It's one thing to say an equivalent dollar amount exists, but it's another thing entirely to have such options. Generally speaking, the same monthly dollar amount spent on rent vs buy is going to net you a bigger space if you buy than if you rent.

- It assumes renters don't pay utilities, which is often not the case. But, again, it needs to be assumed that renters and buyers both pay the same utilities somehow, regardless of whether they're paying the landlord or the utility companies. It almost doesn't make sense to factor utilities into the comparison, especially only on one side of it.

Anyway, I totally buy that there's opportunity cost in a down payment, and that someone could use that money to invest in other ways that might outperform rent. I do not buy that there's any other savings possible when renting in a free market, generally speaking. (I'm specifically excluding rent control in my thinking here.)

Personally, I can easily say after having rented for a decade and owned two houses for a decade, that the houses were a far and away better deal financially than renting, like not even close. So much so that I very much regret not buying earlier. All in all, including maintenance and remodels on both houses, buying houses has increased my savings considerably, where renting decreased it.

My experience makes me wonder whether arguments in favor of renting aren't somewhat designed to make people who don't have a choice about renting feel okay about their situation. That's not necessarily a bad thing in my mind, even if the argument doesn't line up with reality.