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>Ruby is just fine for "just wanting to get it done"

Yeah, I explicitly said ROR there because its the web framework which is annoying when you want to ship. I think the language is pretty neat actually, 'cept doesn't have as many libs.

>But. If you have even the slightest difference of opinion with Rails as to how to handle a request or represent the URL parameters you're getting from browsers, you're in for a world of hurt.

Yeah, sometimes that "way rails thinks you should" is considerably more complicated than what you'd have to do on a PHP or Djagno project to just get that last mile in. I'm currently finishing up a iOS SDK/library that talks to both a rails and django backend, and while the ROR dev is more available, he often has to figure out the right ways to change things that the Django guy just splats out if he has to(and cleans up after we're integrated). The ROR solutions are often frustratingly complicated (want to add a field to this view? Naw you can't, we have to instead change the datamodel of that object and sorry we can't name this that thing you already put in the client, etc). We don't care about long term whatever this week. We just want a certain URL scheme and certain output to happen NOW so we can integrate the last couple chunks in before our announced press event hits us, then backfill with quality code at that URL later. It might just be I know the ruby dev better, but he seems he's probably the better programmer of the two as well (but I don't know the Django guy well).

Sure the rails methodology might be better if you are the type of the person who doesn't do things the right way when you're not forced to , but if you are the type who does things correctly, the Django is no more correct or less correct and canonical, except for those instances when where you just have to finish. So if we're adults, we can write good code most of the time and good enough code when we have to and get away with it on Django. On rails, yeah right. There was a Plone developer who said something once like "Python believes we're all consenting adults". I feel python web frameworks do, and ROR doesn't. (link to the AWESOME talk:http://www.archive.org/details/SeanKellyRecoveryfromAddictio...)

If I wanted bureaucracy, I'd go do a java serverlet. Rails feels more like religious doctrine enforced in code than bureaucracy, but it has that stink of java's "thou shalt use the X to do the Y or DEATH AND INFAMY will result". It's not an overwhelming stick mind you, but a slight odor.

Ruby on Rails DOES work. It just is frustrating in that it does not allow shortcuts, ever. Therefore, I feel it keeps you away from your kids before a commitment, where Django doesn't. I'm not saying "don't ever use it", and I dont' think people who KNOW rails will get enough out of swapping to do the swap, but if you know neither now, I'd go python/django.

Then again, if you're new to programming, the copious beware/here be dragons of ROR might be a better path to get used to not slacking.
I don't think gang members do it for the money, but rather for the social status. By definition you don't have that here; as soon as someone proclaims herself a "leader" they get raided just as hard as any of Anon's targets. Moot has a love-hate relationship with Anon and certainly isn't a leader figure in a sense that he isn't directing raids.

So to your point Anon is something very different than traditional gangs, but I think that's because there's no hierarchy to aspire to, rather than lack of money.
Yea except that inconvenient treaty that states you can't put weapons in space. Oh and also if you try to do this China would just try to shoot it down anyways. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty
200m man hrs/day = 380 man yrs/day. That's cognitive surplus.
"If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands."

Nice. This quote I'm going to try to work into conversation this week.
FTA:
Second, the proposal runs headlong into the Net Neutrality debate. Sachson said BoxTop will do away with need for Net Neutrality legislation. But if Internet companies pay for simple access, it might only be a short step away from advanced tiers of service with greater levels of performance–exactly what Net Neutrality wants to prevent.

This is what I see happening. If business models like this become popular, they will only accelerate the demise of net neutrality.
I think the point of the story may be that you can't wait for the hard problems to come to you. You have to go and look for them. Ashton waited at the furniture company hoping that one day he would be presented with a problem that would gain him recognition. After years of waiting, he decided he couldn't wait any longer and went to San Francisco to FIND a problem that would get him the recognition he wanted.
I read it differently, perhaps because I feel so strongly about this idea: do a good job, focus on what's important. If management doesn't appreciate you for that, then it's a terrible place to work. If you're doing a good job and they aren't appreciating it, then you seriously need to gtfo. If you don't, you will rot.

Over the years as I've looked around me, I've seen a lot of people stagnating in their jobs. Sometimes it's because of lack of effort from the developer, and sometimes it's because of poor management.

But if doing a great job isn't already enough, then maybe the job is a poor fit. The parable in the story touches on both of these issues: trying hard, and the struggle to please management.

A third issue that's perhaps more important: you need to find the work fulfilling for your own reasons. Working exclusively for the praise of your superiors is a good way to be unhappy with your employment in most places. So figure that out, or go to a place where the work matters.

And buyer beware: there are places even in San Francisco where doing good development work will garner you no notice. I just left such a place.
Gears doing math and the adding is especially amazing.

Then realize they figured that out over 2000 years ago.
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"Since most users who request a refund do so within minutes of purchase, we will reduce the refund window on Market to 15 minutes"

I'm concerned that's gone too far the other way. Twenty four hours was too long for a utility/short game but at fifteen minutes, you're cutting it fine if you have installation problems or need to properly evaluate the app.
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If Google is willing to pay for the development of multiple Web browsers, why not this? I would expect that you'll see a lot of ads when browsing on this system, though.
Seriously. He's still got it.
200 pound of tnt is 30.2 mJ in the M107 round you have 14.6 lbs of tnt in that shell. So basically 14 shells would equal about that many mJ. I'm sure that the ship has more than 14 shells.
No, I'm just insulted. What jey is essentially saying is that I'm incompetent and condescending, but it's not my fault because I worked at Microsoft. That's patronizing and I'm not sure how you don't see that.
Ok, but how the heck can you get social status when you are completely anonymous and no one knows who you are, not even your fellow gang members? They don't seem to have unique Anonymous ids, or do they?

Oh wait, now I see. That's your point - that the difference is they don't have social status. OK, good point.
Sayyan
It's so true, too. Productivity really does alienate slackers. Who was it that said small teams Do not tolerate freeloaders?
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I think this is fair. If you end up using the app for more than 15 minutes, I think you have to pay for it.

This is still generous compared to the App Store which doesn't give you an easy way to refund your app purchase.
Direct link to the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLPVCJjTNgk
Wow seriously guy?. Wtf take this to reddit, if you don't have anything to add to the discussion then shut up please.
on Twitter Someone from Google told that, They can not ship because of some custom rules. They have no time to do all the papper work.
Since your so keen to rules and such you may need to re-read the rules we abide by here on HN.
That meeting room "12 Chairs". There is an old, very popular Russian book made into a movie about a set of 12 chairs and in one of them there are treasures hidden. It's a comedy about how a bunch of con men try to find the chair.
Thank you for this very well-written response! Are there specific frameworks that you're using now for your projects and if so what are they?
About the only thing I use is_a? for routinely in Ruby code is to allow a particular function to accept many types of things as arguments. (An array? Sure! A single object? Why not? A single ActiveRecord id? Don't sweat it, I can do .find(id), too!)
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Okay, let me give you the real live example. I build integrated products (mobile app which talks to a few web apps and maybe a desktop app in there too). I'm not a web developer sitting there making a site a human uses a great deal of the time.

You're 9.5 weeks into a 10 week project. Some changes need to be made to a view cause a race condition was found in a load in the client application that talks to your framework.

If you're a rails guy, and you get the feature request, you go "What do I have to change to fix that" <time passes> "Magic happend, it all works". You don't really have the ability always to twiddle the current output in some random way required to just get the comms working with the client and the system incrementally integrated with the world.

If you're the django guy, you go" Let me stick the output you want for now in the view, okay, does that work? cool I'll add some dynamic stuff, Okay cool, does it still work, I'll go do that the right way".

If you work in a position where you sometimes need to do the second one, but largely can behave like an adult and follow the correct ways to do the rest of the time, Django will be more rewarding to you than Rails, as you can get away with building that last mile out of earwax and sticky tack if you want to on Django, but on rails, you really have to used that same deliberate hand carved ivory you used everywhere else.

Which project is going to be purtier when you're done? Rails for sure! Which one is going to be easier to expand off of? Probably rails will take less time to get to the next version, as there will be no cleanup time to take out the sticky tack. Can you hack the crap out of something when you need to pop something out the door for the demo tommorrow? It really really varies upon what the hack is you need to pull. With Django it doesn't. That's the issue. That's what I mean about "willing to just get it done".

By willing to just get it done, I mean take the immediate pre-ship shortcuts and workarounds that you have to do often to ship on time. Rails abhors a shortcut or an abridgment. I think it has very large strengths for a lot of people. But for others, working in certain types of jobs, I find this insistance of "not going off the rails" infuriating.

Yes, I know if you're a ruby god whos' done rails for a very long time, and knows exactly how everything works, you CAN do this sort of thing. I've worked with some of you actually. I think you guys are cool. But the general ROR guy can't. The general Django guy can.

Django is a 18 wheeler truck and Rails a freight train. They do different things well. But damn, you crash if you take that train off the rails, but you can survive offroading in that truck for a bit to make that delivery at a weird stop.
I'm confused. Do I also need to show respect to people who have no chance of helping me or my friends later?
I have a friend of mine who found himself in a similar situation. He is working on his PHD now. He approached the school staff and set up something where he would pay everything out of pocket even given his meager means this guy worked hard to pay off every penny.

This is nothing that is impossible, i hope it works out.
The taboo is extremely strong here on Hacker News.
It's very hard for you or I now, to appreciate what it was like before you learned to think of linked lists as stacks. The point is, there is definitely a leap of insight necessary if you've never thought of things in this way before. I was 12 or so when I made the leap, and I guess I'm slightly lucky that I remember the exact moment for this particular case.
Think many HNers won't find their life similar to Ashton's. Unfortunately, mine is. At least, the job part is. Honestly, it's not much bad but it looks like it's leading towards the same frustration.
By that same judgement your parents didn't teach you the virtue "if you don't have something good to say, you should keep your mouth shut"
Any out-of-the-box Apache setup on, e.g., Ubuntu will, with absolute certainty, appear to crash if you subject it to several thousand pageviews in a short amount of time. KeepAlive is on by default, and that essentially amounts to turning any group of five or more interested people who share a 3 second window into denial of service attack.

This used to drive me freaking bonkers -- I was installing caching plugins, offloading static resources to other domains, tweaking the number of worker processes, etc etc. Nothing worked, and my blog regularly crashed almost every time it hit an audience larger than HN's. Turned off KeepAlive, bam, no problems since.
They're opinionated, not biased. Bias would imply there was something impartial asked for.

Know what else is opinionated? Ruby on Rails. (This is quoted widely on the web, by Rails devs!)[http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8...]

I'm not criticizing ruby, I don't have any issue with it (I'd still go python over ruby, cause I'll take libraries over pretty close but slightly better syntax any day). But ROR can get in your way when it's times to ship as I've explained several times in this thread. Its opinions get in your way when you want to do something it thinks is bad. This is an issue when you want to get work done sometimes.

I don't think the guy is damned to hell if he uses ROR or anything, I just think unless he's a guy who can't make himself (or his teammates) follow the rules when he doesn't have to, he has a stronger product more adaptable to development realities with Django.
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This might be useful if it were accurate. Just from first glance: they say Firefox doesn't have touch support, yet it's had multitouch support for over a year: http://hacks.mozilla.org/2009/08/multi-touch-firefox/

Heck, here's a video of one of the Mozilla dev's side projects using touch: http://vimeo.com/17456088
Good point, but I think that some, if not the majority of gangs only exist to make money. No money = no power = no gang. Anonymous has no comparable feature.

I see anon more as a sort of underground ideological group than anything else. The first comparable movement that comes to mind is Project Mayhem (with less physical destruction of property and more identity ambiguity.)
I was thinking the same thing, but they seem to have raised 24M over the last three years[1], so it makes sense.

[1]:http://www.crunchbase.com/company/blekko
When a single script terminates, all the memory is deallocated. Basically, as you said, it's just like process termination in the OS.
The differences between python and ruby aren't the important thing in this question. The languages are different (ruby: better syntax, python: better libraries). The important thing is "Are you the type of person who will excel with very strong strictures on your work" (Do rails) or "Are you a person who sometimes disregards the rules to do work more expeditiously" (Do python)
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Say what you will about Apple, their products, or their business model, but I've always found their engineers to be the pinnacle of quality and hacker culture.
The Nazis were facists, which is to say that there was "private property", but the state could tell you what you had to do with "your" property. In socialism, the state owns the property. It's a distinction without much of a difference, the main one being that socialism is a little more honest.
I don't think that this would "do away with need for Net Neutrality legislation." This is exactly the kind of thing that net neutrality legislation is intended to prohibit — turning the open internet into a premium service only accessible to the rich.

They say that "just 35.8% of U.S. households with annual incomes under $25,000 actually have broadband." That's 9.5% of total US households, which, interpolating, would be all the households with an annual income under US$10600; and many of those (if they have housing at all) presumably have dial-up internet access, and can also go to the public library across town when they need faster access.

(An interesting side note is that this means that at least a third of US households under the poverty line already have broadband, and probably closer to half.)

So, these guys are hoping to sign up all of those folks, plus a slice off the bottom of the folks just above the poverty line, by falsely claiming to give them internet access when what they're really selling them is a TCP/IP version of basic cable TV, with a limited selection of corporate partners who pay for the privilege and perhaps meet some kind of content standards as well.

If they were successful, then ISPs that currently serve the least demanding customers would lose those customers, causing them to drop in profitability or raise their prices, driving more of their least demanding customers into the arms of BoxTop. This used to be a standard argument about why telephone service had to be a monopoly, and it doesn't hold up in that strong form, but it does tell us that BoxTop's success would mean that real internet access would cost more, taking it out of the reach of some people who can currently afford it. It just doesn't say how much more.

So the real outcome, if BoxTop were successful, would be making internet access less affordable to the poor.

I predict that it's not going to work, because not only are people under the poverty line not going to sign up for Netflix, they're not going to use an ISP that doesn't let them click on the links their friends are posting on Facebook, and they're not going to use an ISP that doesn't let them run BitTorrent. I admit I only know a few people under the poverty line in the US, and they may not be a random sample, so I could easily be wrong about this.
Recursion is advanced?
I've always thought that "Math with gears" would be a fascinating elective course and should be included with most engineering programs.
The game quickly turns into a pachinko machine as the levels get more difficult. I think it takes advantage of pachinko gambling psychology for a lot of its appeal.
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screen reimplements its own internal permissions model

That's exactly my point. This is neither categorically good nor bad. It doesn't reinvent permissions gratuitously, but, rather, as a way of increasing flexibility.

It allows per-window permissions and fairly arbitrary permissionsetting, for any user, without resorting to groups (the membership of which a regular user does not control) or universal permissions.
I thought the same thing after living with Rails in a shipping product for 2 years or so. We embraced Sinatra, which does away with all of your Rails concerns. Sinatra is still very popular; probably the most popular framework after Rails.

However, for my last several projects, I've been back in Rails and happy to be there. Once you understand why things work the way they do in Rails and stop trying to bend it to your own design, it turns out that they mostly got it right. It is, for instance, so much easier to code up preauth/postauth pages in Rails, or to implement permissioning.
What should really blow your mind is the precision of the original metalworking and gearing, well before the age of clockmaking and watchmaking.

An item like that to spring in to existence without any record of a history leading up to it or a history of devices descending from it really makes you wonder whose imagination it sprang from and why it wasn't recognized that these principles had further application, or, alternatively could point to lots of stuff (including knowledge) getting lost.
Recursion is best taught in C?
Exactly, ICE won't deport you unless you get in the news or f__k up big time and get booked (such as, for example, driving over X mph in certain states) and on top of that if someone in the po-lice really hates you (they'll play dumb otherwise). I have my own opinion on why this is, something to do with actually needing illegals, but don't want to start a flamewar.
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How does that story answer the question, other than to imply that in a few years, nothing the OP will have done will matter at all.

I think the thesis is "If in a few years nothing you have done will matter at all, then go change that even if doing so makes you look like a madman."
Sadly so, even for some CS graduates (at least here in India).

Personally though, recursion helps me in recruitment process as this is a quick test to filter candidates.
I swear, that comes up every time a gender-switching or single-gender non-amoeba comes up. And everywhere, not just the Interwebs.
Oh, come on, Joel. Grand Haven isn't that bad. It's only slightly colder than Manhattan, and just 15 minutes further inland you're in a weird Michigan microclimate where they can grow decent wine grapes. The beaches are fucking beautiful --- those are the beaches they shot the end of Road to Perdition on.

And I bet the chairs they give you at that company are awesome.
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Thanks you so much Sizzlar. I was about to go to bed disappointed, but you've given me a good response. I'm going to take some inventory tomorrow morning, and hunt down some cash.
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