In the ruby ecosystem, I think it's indisputable that both bundler and widespread use of semver resulted in huge reductions in pain of dependency management, including improvements in automatic updating to get bugfixes and security patches without breakages.

It's not perfect (not all dependencies even try to use semver, some have bugs in their semver versions), and it doesn't eliminate need for having and running automated tests after dependency updates, or eliminate all surprises or manual interventions -- but I think it's hard to argue that it hasn't been an improvement.

Now, typical "modern" (webpacker etc) Javascript projects can have, it seems, even an order of magnitude larger dependency tree than is common even in post-bundler ruby.

One would think this would make the problem being discussed here _even more painful_. I dabble in JS but am not really expert at it, but I think that's probably so.

So, if semver is not working to lessen the pain -- which is possible, although it's also possible it would be even worse without it -- why not?

I honestly think some of the answer is a lack of understanding of the solution being suggested by semver, which is why I think the semver docs should be more explicit. As I understand it, pre-yarn, JS toolchain didn't even have the equivalent of the `Gemile.lock` for managing dependencies, which to me is pretty crucial. I think there is probably a lack of understanding among some dependency maintainers on what they should be trying to do regarding backwards incompat, the definition of such, it's relation to version numbers, etc. And among dependency consumers on how this system is _meant_ to work, that it could even be _possible_ to automatically update in non-breaking ways, if your toolchain behaves well, if dependency authors behave well, and if you specify your dependency requirements accordingly.

But maybe with all of that, there is just something about JS and the way it is used -- or something about order-of-magnitude bigger dependency trees? -- that makes it much harder.

I'm not sure. You seem to be suggesting that the JS community ought to give up on any automated toolchain assistance in determining updates possible without breakage, and just resign to only updating dependencies after manual human review of changes in each one.

To me, that seems just plain infeasible when you have ~1000+ element dependency trees including many-levels of indirect depenencies you don't particularly want to know about. You're going to end up spending a huge amount of time trying to identify and apply relevant bugfixes and security patches in deeply-indirect dependencies -- or just have buggy and vulnerable software, with huge technical debt if you ever want to update to more recent versions of dependencies after a project has had it's dependency tree stagnant for so long.

On the other hand, the JS developer community seems to be willing to put up with levels of developer inconvenience that seem insane to me, and practically, many people in JS-land seem so far to have been managing their 1000+ element dependency trees entirely manually, somehow. So, I dunno. If this isn't generally seen as a problem in the JS community, then of course there would be no interest in a solution involving semver. I have trouble believing it won't be increasingly seen as a problem, in which case familiarity with solutions that have worked in other ecosystems would be important in working out solutions for JS... but who knows. (There is an npm representative on identified semver maintenance team, so I'd guess at least _some_ JS devs recognize the problem and are interested in a solution involving semver...)